Tin Whistles

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 12:12 PM

Mr Happy, what you were given is called a zurna in Turkish or Bulgarian and a mizmar in Arabic; the Breton bombarde is almost the same thing. It makes a ferocious noise and is mainly used for outdoor dance music. Tip: if you can't get a sound out of it, try soaking the reed in water for a few minutes. Oggie - thanks for the reminder, I'd seen that link before but hadn't noticed the Related links about how meys and their reeds are made.

The mey is almost the same as the Armenian duduk or Azeri balaban - acoustically it's an oboe but it sounds like the low register of a clarinet, a gentle vocal sound. It has an enormous reed and you only put the tip of it in your mouth. Some players double on mey and zurna but they have quite different functions.

PMB: I'm not dissing Irish whistle tradition (*is* there a distinctively identifiable national English one?) but deflating a bunch of quite unnecessary mythology that has been imposed on it, sometimes for mercenary motives by whistlemakers, sometimes out of misdirected political ideology. When people's ideas about an instrument are as irrationally quasi-religious as what you get on the Chiff and Fipple forums, you have to ask what's going on.

I have a guess as to some of what may be behind this. The English recorder revivalists made a big deal about its link to the culture of Elizabethan England. To almost any Irish nationalist, that was like telling a Palestinian Muslim that the Crusaders were envoys of civilization - as seen from Ireland, Elizabeth's England was simply a gang of colonialist thugs who were in no way excused by Byrd, Dowland and Holborne. So Dolmetsch and friends simply ended up persuading most of the Irish that the recorder was the enemy's instrument and its music was anthems of mass murder.

Outside of Eastern Europe, the recorder is a relatively recent addition to the folk musician's toolkit, only widely available for about 80 years, but that's still a lot longer than most other instruments accepted as traditional in the British Isles. Acoustically it can do the business and it's just silly to let taboos of long-forgotten origin get in the way of using it.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Tootler
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 12:53 PM

Nick Wrote:

So would it be safe to say that if someone plays a whistle and sounds better than someone playing a recorder they are a better musician?

At one level yes, but the better musician is also likely to sound better on the recorder once they have mastered the basics of the instrument. Although they are different instruments, the differences are not so great and it is relatively easy to transfer your skills from one to the other. I started on recorder, then more recently took up whistle though I only played it spasmodically for quite a long time, but it did not take me long to pick up the basics. It also works for wooden flute which I have only taken up recently, but once I began to get on top of the embouchure problems, I have been able to make quite rapid progress.

Geoff

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 03:44 AM

I dunno Jack. I quite agree with you about whistle snobbery- in my experience you don't get it in "proper" Irish sessions from people who really can play. Same with flutes- now I'd LOVE a Williams flute, but I've known people play better than I ever could on an old wreck held together with Araldite and gaffer tape. I don't know much about chiff and fips; it always seemed to me to conjure up exactly the kind of whistle sound I'm NOT trying to make.

Not sure about the connection between recorder, Elizabethan music and nationalism though. The recorder was very much a sandals-and-nut-cutlets instrument before WWII I think, and simply wouldn't have impinged on the Irish scene, where the whistle was pretty well established. It only became widespread when they introduced it to (mostly primary) schools, which in our area was sometime between my time and my younger sister's. Resistance to takeup could stem from its association with kids' music, and the low quality of the instruments available- the weak f#s particularly. But I think more from the fact that the whistle was (and is) the traditional instrument.

Have you run across this lot - the Palladian Ensemble- with some excellent recorder playing on Geminiani's arrangement of Scottish tunes- tracks 15 to 17?

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 06:03 AM

My favourite D is one the early batches of Faedog that fetched up on these shores around 1983; beautiful tone, and quiet. I snap up old Clarkes Cs whenever I see them; the older the better, even those that require a bit of attention. Not keen on the new Ds, or the Megs, but I've got a green one I bought from a toy shop in Ashby de la Zouch a few years back which isn't too bad. I recently bought a vintage E (yes E!) tin whistle in the Clarkes stlye which is an absolute dream, and my favourite F is a Chinese bamboo whistle bought at Ray Mans in London back around 1989.

My test for a whistle is the old tune variously known as The Abbots Bromley Horn Dance; if I can play that comfortably, and consistently, then it's in the bag. Somewhere I've got an Indian brass whistle that blows through a side tube, and my little treasure is a tiny brass F picked up for £2 in a Morpeth antique shop which is actually too small for my fingers to play with any certainty, but as a tavelling companion it's the very dab.

On my wish list right now is a Shaw lo-F - any thoughts??

Basically, Les, keep scouring until you fall in love, but beware of broken hearts - I still mourn my old Generation Bb (bought at Rothbury Festival in 1983) which was the sweetest instrument ever; I dropped it down a toilet at Glastonbury the following year and couldn't bring myself to fish it out.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 07:41 AM

Thanks Sean,

How do you deal with saliva in shops?

Les

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Vin2
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 08:09 AM

Mr Happy; yep it's the Manc Jolly Angler. Not bin for a while but assume it's still going. Believe there's still a session at the Pevril 'o' the Peak on Tuesday eves aswell.

Saliva in shops? Best to walk 'round it methinks :-)

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Stu
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 08:46 AM

The Jolly Anger is still going strong and is a fine session, well worth popping into if you're passing.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 09:22 AM

Thing to do, Les - is use that alcohol-based needs-no-water handwash stuff; like I say to the kids I work with when I'm storytelling - I don't want your germs, and you certainly don't want mine! This is ideal with Trumps & Gew-Gaws (Jew's Harps) too.

Otherwise, keeps your lips dry; I learned this sharing tabs round the back of the bike sheds, and in later years spliffs (in more enlightened singarounds). Warm a metal mouthpiece first so the moisture won't condense; Overtons were especially bad for this, in paticular the low-D and G 3-hole pipes - which I still have & love, but I replaced my low-D Overton whistle with a one handmade by my old mate Iain Wood over 20 years ago. Needless to say Iain's low-D is still my low-whistle of choice.

Check the World-Ethnic-Fair-Trade-Crafty type shops too; there's some lovely Indonesian 'suling' type whistles doing the rounds right now and at least one in every fifty (or so) is workably in tune with a tone to match (even the ones in the Blackpool Zoo gift shop) and there were some lovely lo-G (ish) bamboo whistles around a few years back with narrow fipples giving a bautuy reedy-recordery tone.

For the ultimate in whistles, check out the Fujara! Haven't got one yet, but it's high on the wish list (once Rachel get's sorted out with her new guitar...)

All this whistle talk and I can only remember two Irish tunes (Lord Mayo & Give me Your Hand) - but even when I played little else but the whistle I always prefered to (gulp!) improvise - even back in 1969 when I eight years old and my grandparents brought me a carved wooden whistle flute from their holiday in Yugoslavia. I've still got it too - you can hear it in the closing moments of Totentanz.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 09:25 AM

Bautuy? Now even I can't say what the word I had in mind there might have been - possibly breathy?

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 11:25 AM

........or 'Bought u, y?'

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 01:35 PM

Sedayne - I tried several fujaras when I was in Slovakia last summer. You need to realize how wildly variable they are - apparently identical instruments can get very different harmonics. The site you referenced lists qualities ranging from "professional" to things that just make a groovy noise to meditate to, and you'll get what you pay for (which will be rather a lot).

I decided not to get one as they're a one-trick pony. Groups that incorporate them in Slovakia tend just to use them for colourful introductions, they don't get them to carry the tune.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: oggie
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 05:23 PM

My favourite whistle at the moment is a Clarke's "Meg". It's the cheapy that that they sell via Hawkin's Bazaar and assorted gift shops and should retail at £2.50. I picked one at random and it's in tune and uses little breath, in fact if I play it too much I struggle when I swap to a Shaw as I keep running out of breath.

Steve

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 03:55 PM

I put aside my Clarke's D for a few weeks, for trivial life-related reasons; when I started playing it again I found that all the minor niggles I'd had with it had got much worse. Specifically, it always was quiet in the low register, making it hard to hear what I'm playing in a session; now when I play it at home it has trouble competing with the fridge. The windy mushiness of the tone on some notes is much worse, too, & seems to affect more notes - it's spread from the cross-fingered C natural to the E and F above.

What's going on, and what can I do about it? (Apart from getting the Feadog Pro I've had my eye on in Hobgoblin, that is.) I've tried bearing down on the tinplate over the airway with my thumb, but I'm worried the sides of the whistle are going to bow away from the fipple if I press too hard.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:27 PM

If it's got a wooden block, it may have dried out and shrunk in the few weeks you've not been using it, making the windway more open than it should be. In which case it will get better if you keep trying - it will rehumidify.

Good instruments use cedar for the block, which doesn't expand and contract with humidity. It has a distinctive taste, like chewing the end of a high-quality pencil. If it doesn't taste like that, your whistle might have a block made of unsuitable wood. Not a lot you can do about that unless you fancy spending hours doing micro-scale sculpture to replace it. The tolerances involved are a few thousandths of an inch.

With a wooden recorder or whistle, you can pop the block out by putting as thick a dowel as possible up the bore of the instrument and slamming it on the floor (tip: put a sock over the end or you'll be searching all over the room for the block when it flies off). This means you can clean the block and windway properly - if you use the instrument a lot, the wetted surfaces will have accumulated condensed saliva, dried food and fungal/bacterial gunge. If I remember the the Clarke's construction right, the block is usually retained by a couple of crimped indentations on the sides of the block, and I'd expect the dowel-slam technique to just pop them open - I don't have a Clarke here to try. If the block is held in with pins, you need to get them out somehow.

You can't usually pop the block with a plastic recorder, though they're easy enough to clean with detergent. The transparent Yamahas (like the one I'm playing in the photos on my webpage) are nice fom this viewpoint because you can see the gunge building up sooner.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Oct 09 - 05:51 PM

Thanks, Jack - that makes a lot of sense.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 07:21 AM

Phil,

go for a black plastic Tony Dixon In D - the one I tempted you with on Saturday. Around £20 exlnt. Clear across a great range and micro -tunable for playing with those tricky fiddle players.

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 09:33 AM

Sussato seem to be reliable

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 09:37 AM

My taborer's pipes are a Generation in D - nice, but a bit shrill, and a Susato in D , a bit sweeter.

My favourite at the moment is a Generation (brass, red mouthpiece) in Bb, altho' I have Gennies in every other key except Eb.

The eldest grandson plays a Ocarina. I picked up a D Faedog recently - beautiful. I am trying to tempt the grandson to this.

Perhaps it is me, but I cannot tell any difference between brass Gennies, IF O K ! and nickel ones. The gaff where I get my whisshles from will usually let me try 'em, provided there is placed over the mouthpiece they plastic liners

what tobacconists used to put over the bite of a bacca pipe, afore you bought it.

I don't smoke, these days. :-)

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 04:25 PM

Two weeks later, the Clarke's D is sounding much better - to begin with. What seems to happen now is that it plays fine for the first couple of tunes, but then most of the lower register disappears: getting anything below G to sound at all is a struggle, and getting a true note without overtones is more or less impossible. This usually happens just after I've blown a bit of spit down it, and a good sharp blow does help a bit - but it doesn't really fix it. Any ideas?

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Oct 09 - 07:00 PM

It sounds like the wood of the block has deteriorated in some way (oils drying out, fungal attack) so that it can't maintain dimensional stability through a wet/dry cycle. Whether the high notes or low notes work better depends on the positioning of thelabium in the air stream - move the stream outwards and the response goes one way, move it inwards and the response goes the other. You want it in the middle. The swelling and shrinking of the block affects that - as the block swells, it pushes the airstream outwards relative to the labium.

Have you taken the block out to clean it? Accumulated dirt and mould might produce the effect you're finding.

If you consider the instrument worth the expense, you could try a trick I use with clarinet and sax reeds. Soak the block in alcohol - I use gin; vodka would be better but I don't drink it. Keep it soaked and only take it out to play it. This will both kill off any fungal and microbial cultures and improve dimensional stability. (With reeds, they last about ten times longer). But it won't be long before you've spent more on your instrument's booze habit than you'd spend on simply buying a new one. We have a thread in BS at the moment that comes to much the same conclusion about supporting alcoholic husbands and wives.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 06:11 AM

Phil,

go for a black plastic Tony Dixon In D - the one I tempted you with on Saturday. Around £20 exlnt. Clear across a great range and micro -tunable for playing with those tricky fiddle players.

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 08:08 AM

What Les said.

Clarkes aren't THAT good, and unless it has some personal association like having been with your grandfather at the Battle of the Somme or else has some powerful juju that will pull any woman within earshot, replace it. Dixons are good.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 08:49 AM

I would like to spend some time with a £100 whistle but I can't see it happening.

I have spent odd afternoons with £1000 banjos and mandolas but you can't really blow down a whistle and then give back.

Dixons are great value for money

L in C

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 10:03 AM

The way my finances are at the moment, I've got a bit of a sentimental attachment to the £20 the Dixon's would cost me.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 12:04 PM

Mmmm....... tough call.

Dixon's whistles

The black plastic ones have gone up. I got mine at Shrewsbury Festival. J Roadhouse have them for around £30!

So good though -

Les

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 12:07 PM

Now I have checked I think this is mine:

DX004 - Tuneable Polymer High Whistle
dx004

Soprano/high whistle with a polymer body and ABS head. Tuneable.

Keys: D & C

The tenor/low version is DX012.

D: £18.00 • C: £20.50

Add Tuneable Polymer High Whistle Key D to order

Add Tuneable Polymer High Whistle Key C to order

Les

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:09 AM

I have a brass Tony Dixon whistle, £52 from Hobgoblin, one of the newer models I think.

A geat whistle :)

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 11:28 AM

My favourite whistle right now is the Clarke shiny metal D Shaw lookalike bought from Hobgoblin's stall at the Fylde back in September. I keep trying more expensive whistles but (as yet) I've not heard anything that justifies the price. A life-long lover of the Clarke C, it took me a while to appreciate the new-fangled genius of the Clarke D, but it really cracks on those harmolodic / harmonic partials. Hear it on Teanlowe Fire Dance recorded yesterday & just this minute uploaded on my Myspace page:

http://www.myspace.com/sedayne

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:51 PM

My Clarke D is annoyingly unreliable and rather quiet even when it's working properly, but Les's Shaw D is the business (cheers, Les).

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 05:04 PM

Exlnt. Summer, Summer on Wednesday at The Beech then?

Les

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 05:13 PM

Summer, summer... is that Samradh, Samradh? I still play that but only on my old Generation Bb...

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 05:46 PM

Hi Sean, good call, as ever! Fanny Power? We keep an empty table in the corner for you both, honest -ish

Cheers
Les