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Tin/Penny Whistle Question

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Vixen 20 Sep 99 - 09:07 AM
SeanM 20 Sep 99 - 03:57 PM
Magpie 20 Sep 99 - 04:42 PM
Steven Palm 20 Sep 99 - 05:10 PM
Bob Bolton 20 Sep 99 - 06:41 PM
Bev Lawton 20 Sep 99 - 07:06 PM
Dave Swan 20 Sep 99 - 07:10 PM
Vixen 21 Sep 99 - 08:45 AM
Jon Freeman 21 Sep 99 - 10:45 AM
hotspur 21 Sep 99 - 11:23 AM
Jeri 21 Sep 99 - 12:15 PM
j0_77 21 Sep 99 - 10:12 PM
Jeri 21 Sep 99 - 10:35 PM
Jon Freeman 21 Sep 99 - 11:27 PM
j0_77 22 Sep 99 - 02:26 AM
Vixen 22 Sep 99 - 08:29 AM
alison 22 Sep 99 - 08:53 AM
Magpie 22 Sep 99 - 03:25 PM
Bob Bolton 22 Sep 99 - 08:12 PM
j0_77 22 Sep 99 - 09:27 PM
Big Mick 23 Sep 99 - 12:33 AM
Vixen 23 Sep 99 - 07:52 AM
Vixen 23 Sep 99 - 08:00 AM
Magpie 23 Sep 99 - 08:37 AM
Bob Bolton 23 Sep 99 - 06:08 PM
GUEST,carolyn whistle 30 Aug 00 - 03:31 PM
Bob Bolton 30 Aug 00 - 11:17 PM
Jon W. 31 Aug 00 - 03:29 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 31 Aug 00 - 06:57 PM
Bob Bolton 01 Sep 00 - 06:28 AM
GUEST,ed 09 Sep 04 - 07:12 PM
GUEST,eddie 09 Sep 04 - 07:21 PM
Leadfingers 09 Sep 04 - 07:31 PM
Burke 10 Sep 04 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,needs help 26 Oct 04 - 07:26 PM
The Fooles Troupe 27 Oct 04 - 03:04 AM
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Subject: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Vixen
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 09:07 AM

D'Cats--

I saw the answer to this question awhile ago, I can't remember how long exactly; I think I read it here, or perhaps on another music forum I can't remember how to get to...well, you get the idea. I searched the forum here, and can't find what I remember reading.

Anyway, here's the question.

Which whistles have a nice bright tone outside in the breezes?

I'm sending the question along to Dale at Chiff and Fipple too, in case that's where I saw the answer...

V


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: SeanM
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 03:57 PM

The plastic tipped aluminum ones seem to be the least prone to heat changes. Of course, with a tuneable, you can adjust for about anything.

I use some cheap Clarkes and Shaws, as they are a) cheap, and b) fairly reliable.

The ones I would NOT recommend for outdoors are not a brand, but generic type.

Brass whistle sound WONDERFUL for studio work. To me, they have a warmer, crisper sound than most other whistles. Unfortunately, they also are INCREDIBLY heat sensitive. Get them outside of a fairly restrictive range of temperatures and they begin to go flat/sharp. I've heard the same of wooden whistles, but have never really played with them.

Anyway, the ones I play seem to sound better in the sun until it hits about 85-90, and then start to suffer from the exposure.

Hope this helps...

M


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Magpie
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 04:42 PM

I've had some very nice moments outdoors with my Susato whistle. Sure it's all plastic, but who cares as long as it keeps in tune? Available (as far as I know) in Bb, C and D. And I've also heard rumours that they come in low D as well. Good luck! Magpie.


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Steven Palm
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 05:10 PM

The biggest problem I've had with playing whistles outside is the interference from breezes and winds with the windway/blade area, and thus causing it to mute, cancel, or really foul up the sound.

I am, of course, partial to my Chris Abell whistle, which performs admirably under all circumstances, but it's a wee bit pricey.


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 06:41 PM

G'day Vixen,

I presume that you are talking about wind interference, not pitch problems. A cross wind can certainly play havoc with whistle playing and I have always found that the moulded plastic mouthpieces, with deeper channels, were better than any of the full metal types. I noticed that on "Chiff and Fipple" one of the makers of plastic large whistles (Cook?)had added a low plastic wall around the top and sides of the whistle. I suspect this is both to improve the volume and to keep away cross winds.

This looks to be a good idea and, having got back into whistle making, after a 34 year gap, with a PVC deep "D" ... made last weekend to explore some finger hole placing alternatives, I am going to do the same to the next whistle I make (this weekend?).

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Bev Lawton
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 07:06 PM

Bob - this is question I ask myself (in fact every time I pick up my Chieftan LOW D whistle) Why can't they position the furthest hole from the fipple around the tube approx 0.5-1.0 inch nearer the small finger of my right hand. I would be interested to know if this is technically feasible (I know you can put the hole there but would it still sound the same?) I have made a few wooden LOW D's but after I have sweated turning them out in decent wood I havn't dared putting the holes anywhere other than the conventional in-line positions. If it IS possible then taking the price of £75 (UK Pounds) for the Chieftan LOW D for what is basically a bit of alloy tube with holes in it (and not particularily well finished holes/tube at that)they damn wel OUGHT to provide this alternative. It's not as if it is any more work really - just rotate the tube 0.5-1 in in the jig and drill the same hole! I would be interested in the layouts you have tried in this respect. Bev Lawton


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Dave Swan
Date: 20 Sep 99 - 07:10 PM

Hi Vixen,

Both pj and I have Alba whistles and they're the ones we pick up 99% of the time. They are stable and predictable in their response to what you intend, and aren't easily influenced by temperature and wind. Liabilities: The're pretty stout construction, causing some folks to notice the increased weight. They're pricey.

E.S.


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Vixen
Date: 21 Sep 99 - 08:45 AM

D'Cats--

Thanks for the tips! Yes, it's the cross-winds that seem to snatch away my tunes. It's least noticible on my Susato C; my Feadog and Oak Ds and Clarke C are just about impossible to play when it's breezy. The question arose because VicTim played an outdoor wedding awhile back, and I had a devil of a time playing. A couple days afterward, while puzzling over the problem, I remembered reading something about problems playing outdoors, so I tested all my pennywhistles outside during Floyd, where I had access to a consistent, strong, unidirectional wind. Sure enough, as long as I played in the lee of my body, all of the whistles played, but only the Susato played into and across the wind (though somewhat erratically!).

I'll look into the Albas and Cooks.

As always, d'cats are the best!

V


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 21 Sep 99 - 10:45 AM

I don't know anything about whistles or the outdoor question but something that has puzeled me for a few years is: why is it that the best players that I have heard in sessions (including a former Irish champion) use simple cheap Generations?

Jon


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: hotspur
Date: 21 Sep 99 - 11:23 AM

Jon, personally I love my Generations, i think they have a lovely tone (not that i have much experience with the more expensive kinds, alas.) However, a good player can make even a marginal instrument sound better than it is...


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Sep 99 - 12:15 PM

In case anyone doesn't have this site: Chiff and Fipple


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: j0_77
Date: 21 Sep 99 - 10:12 PM

Re Generation, me too, they are nice to play and not too expensive, next would be Soodlums -smooth - last and allround suprise a plastic one bought for 50 cents no maker's name :)


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Sep 99 - 10:35 PM

Whoopsie - Chiff and Fipple


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 21 Sep 99 - 11:27 PM

I'd found it anyway and noticed that the Generations didn't get too good a write up but on the other hand I saw that Mary Bergin played one on her "feadoga stain" 1&2. I only have the second of these but I reckon the whistle sounds superb on it.

I seem to be doing a lot of wandering off at tangents at the moment but here's a little tale. A few years ago in the Llandudno Folk Club, one of the organisers came to me saying that she had just had a phone call from somebody called Mary Bergin who was looking for a folk club booking before she caught the Holyhead ferry to Ireland and and this organiser asked me if I had ever heard of her.

I told the organiser that she was the finest whistle players that I'd heard of and the resonse was "Oh I thought she seemed a bit shocked when I asked her for a demo tape". We didn't get the booking!

Jon


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: j0_77
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 02:26 AM

Seein as this is becomming a general arena for whistle players - I thought I ought to mention that few of the Irish Trad recordings I have heard over the years exhibit what is best about the instrument. The style of playing - mostly competitive - is alien to a long tradition in Ireland of a simple but rhythmic pattern. The Fleadh IMHO has almost destroyed that. If interested in this topic you could do well to check out the Clare 'school' and you'd be in select company too - Capt O'Niell of the 1000 and 1 tunes - and nearly all the modern autorities on the subject.

Where you may hear some of that old style is on Micko Russell's recordings.


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Vixen
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 08:29 AM

j0_77-- OK--What's Fleadh? How do I check out "the Clare 'school'"? Who's Capt. O'Niell? What are some of Micko Russell's recordings?

I just started playing the pennywhistle in February, subscribed to Chiff n Fipple in March, and I have managed to miss all of the above references. When I play with my partner, I usually lead the melody, but sometimes I play a harmony drone behind the fiddle melody. I'm not dextrous enough yet to do the cascades of notes I hear on pw recordings, but I thought that was what I should be working towards. How does this "simple rhythmic pattern" sound?

In darkness but seeking the light,

V


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: alison
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 08:53 AM

Another vote for good old cheapie Generations from me..... but the nickle ones, althought the tone of my brass Bb is gorgeous.

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Magpie
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 03:25 PM

Vixen

Cpt. O'Neill travelled his country, collecting and writing down trad Irish tunes, so that they wouldn't be forgotten. There are several editions of his books on the market, the biggest being O'Neill's 1001 gems. Unfortunately I've lent mine to a friend, so I can't give you any more details, such as who's published it and so on. But any music shop with a bit of self-respect should have it, or at least be able to tell you where and how to get hold of it. (Of course it won't be of much use if you don't read music.) But if you do read music, the tunes are pretty easy to figure out, and after a while you'll be able to add grace notes. Just start slowly, and then speed up as your fingers get used to the abuse.

Magpie


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 08:12 PM

G'day all you Mudcat whistlers,

Bev Lawton: Factory makers are not going to make a whistle that is "Right" or "Left" handed - they would have to make 2 models, shops would have to be persuaded to stock extra whistles &c. A custom maker can place the holes off line with no problem - except that the whistle is now "bespoke" - made to fit one person (although it may now work better for 90% of the rest).

The next test piece I make this weekend (another low "D" in 25mm PVC electrical conduit) will have the holes for right and left ring fingers slightly offset (only 3mm/~.125")... unlike last weekend's effort that was a little too far out of line!

I will also cement an extra thickness of PVC tube wall into the whistle area to let me make it all deeper and sharper. I suspect this will give me better low tones and I quess that making wooden whistles gives you a real cahnce to make things as deep-cut as you want to.

Vixen: Yes ... notice that the thin flat tops of tin tin whistles does nothing to protect against cross-winds. The moulded plastic channel is a lot better and the "Soodlums"/Irish style, with quite a deep wind channel would be best of all. I have always tried to keep the whistle in the lee of my body when playing outdoors.

Jon Freeman: Of course, really good players have been playing for a long time ... and therefore started on what was available. Once generations got over the badly designed plastic mouthpieces of the 1960s (or even 1950s?), that were useless on anything bigger than their standard "D", they became almost as good as their old lead fipple versions ... and a damn sight better for your life expectancy! I still have some lead ones (with shrink-fit tube over the fipple and they ae lovely ... but are in rather high old pitch.

j0_77 and Magpie: The way I heard it, Capt O'Neill of the Chicago Police Force hired every passing Irish musician onto the Force - then sat them down to play every tune they knew to Sgt O'Neill (not a close relative) who transcribbed them all!. I would have to check, but my O'Neill's is something like 1875 tunes ... the 1001 is a more recent edit down to amnageable proportions.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: j0_77
Date: 22 Sep 99 - 09:27 PM

Ok I am in the goop, sorry Vixen. O'Niell commented that there was little to recommend the collector in any place except Clare BUT I must add he did not spend much time in Co Sligo. Awe well. Clare is a County on the west coast of Ireland and it has retained to this very day the 'old' style of playing.

Micko Russell's recordings, if you'd browse to click herethen email Kieran he'll give you the reference.

Rhythmic playing is all about breathing and knowing when to break - reels are different to jigs etc., The cascading notes are dressing not the Tune. Better to play one tune well then a CD or three badly. Nuff said.

Bein a folk person as well as a trad fan since I cannot remeber when - I must say there were times when the cascading stuff turned me right off - not just on the whistle - on anything - in particular the accordian. Loud bad music and less loud bad music have nothing to do but bad time people - so if you can, try to 'good time' the people. It adds to social harmony and happiness.


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 12:33 AM

We had an earlier thread called Tinwhistles, tweekin and tuning, which has a lot of related information.

All the best,

Big Mick


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Vixen
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 07:52 AM

Wow--

Jo_77, Magpie, and Bob: I guess I need to get O'Neill's book!

Jo_77: I've emailed Kieran about Micko's recordings.

Big Mick: Thank you!!! That was the thread I couldn't find in the first place. Next time, I'll search for "whistle" and get ALL the threads! (lesson learned!)

Regarding all this stuff about hand size and LOW whistles (please, don't let 'spaw see *this,* he'll have a field day! ;> ) my palm measures 3" at the widest point, my index and middle fingers are each 3" and my ring finger is 2.75". Are those dimensions sufficient to a low whistle? Or should I stick to my flute and recorder for the low stuff, and just do high tunes on the pw? (Just in case anybody gets confused about what my hands are going to be on here, we're talking *wind instruments* NOT *organs* ;> ) The question is seriously meant though. If I get a low whistle, it'll probably be through mail order with no opportunity to see if I can play it first.

Awaiting more enlightenment,

V


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Vixen
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 08:00 AM

Wow--

Jo_77, Magpie, and Bob: I guess I need to get O'Neill's book!

Jo_77: I've emailed Kieran about Micko's recordings.

Big Mick: Thank you!!! That was the thread I couldn't find in the first place. Next time, I'll search for "whistle" and get ALL the threads! (lesson learned!)

Regarding all this stuff about hand size and LOW whistles (please, don't let 'spaw see *this,* he'll have a field day! ;> ) my palm measures 3" at the widest point, my index and middle fingers are each 3" and my ring finger is 2.75". Are those dimensions sufficient to a low whistle? Or should I stick to my flute and recorder for the low stuff, and just do high tunes on the pw? (Just in case anybody gets confused about what my hands are going to be on here, we're talking *wind instruments* NOT *organs* ;> ) The question is seriously meant though. If I get a low whistle, it'll probably be through mail order with no opportunity to see if I can play it first.

Awaiting more enlightenment,

V


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Magpie
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 08:37 AM

Vixen, your hands are about the same size as mine, and I don't have much trouble playing the low whistles. You will, however, probably curse me for having said that once you've bought yourself a low. But don't fret! The strech IS long, but if you twist you lower hand downwards a bit, and use the parts between the first and second joint, instead of your finger tips, you'll get it inthe end.

And, yes, it'll take some getting used to, but the sound of a good low whistle is soooo nice, it'll be worth it!

Magpie


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 23 Sep 99 - 06:08 PM

G'day Vixen,

My hands are a very different shape: >4" across the palm but much the same finger lengths. Therefore I have (almost) the same problems in span ... and I can (reasonably) easily finger my low "D" Overton with a "half piper" hold - that is, with my left hand straight but my right hand pivotted from the ring finger to account for that very distant bottom hole.

I guess the bonus I have here is that the pads of my fingers are wide and I have no great problem sealing the holes. Narrower fingers mean that placement must be more careful ... or just plain impossible if the hole is wider than the finger pad.

I suspect that the low "D" Overton might be a problem with your narrower fingers, but it is possible to position and size the holes differently (with some theoretical losses in chromatic playing - but that is not really the 'folk' style). The real problem is the lowest hole and I am sure it can be placed closer (and the second hole made more even). A custom made whistle could also offset that hole a little to make it easier to reach without any compromise in tuning.

If you must buy a production whistle by mail, I suggest a lot of effort to lay hands on other people's whistles of different types before you lay out the cash.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: GUEST,carolyn whistle
Date: 30 Aug 00 - 03:31 PM

i can play a mean whistle,struggle with some tunes, can improvise superbly with songs, but cannot manage big D and i dont have short fingers, breathing is sometimes difficult (i'm a smoker) tell me about circular breathing, have just bought a harpers any body give me some tips/advice, Carolyn


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 30 Aug 00 - 11:17 PM

G'day Carolyn,

What is it about the big D that doesn't work: reach holes, sealing those damned big holes (like the second one from the bottom), getting speed and ornamentation when everything is bigger or the amount of wind needed to play them? Each of these is a totally separate problem but all get worse as the whistle gets bigger.

If you don't have short fingers, you presumably dont have reach problems (although you may need to learn the "piper's hold" for best results. If you fingers are narrow, you may have troule sealing the big holes, but the piper's hold may also help (somewhat) as you use the thicker parts of the fingers on the big second hole.

Fluency of playing should come woth increased familiarity with the big whistles. Amount of air will vary a lot with brand and type. My first purchased big whistle, in the 1970s, was an Overton low F - nowhere as big as a D but it got me going and when I did get a low D the transition was not so severe. The early Overton were very "tight" - they had narrow wind channels and didn't use a lot of air - but needed good pressure. I have ever since preferred this to more open wind channels that can produce very mellow sound but need a lot of wind. This varies greatly between brands and, without knowing what type of low D you have, I can't comment.

BTW:I have, since the earlier incarnation of this thread, found that there are good acoustic reasons for the very wide spacing of low D whistles like the Overton. If I move the lowest hole up, or even tighten the grouping of the bottom three holes, I end up with an instrument that is not anywhere near as loud as one with the difficult fingering. At least I can position holes to suit the curve of the hand and, maybe fudging the size and position by minimal amounts, end up with a whistle that is a lot easier to play.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Jon W.
Date: 31 Aug 00 - 03:29 PM

Bob, how do you make the airways and fipples for your homemade PVC whistles? I've made a few and this seems like the most difficult part to me. (I've used a tapered wood plug and cut the fipple with a fine saw but it seems very fussy to get one to sound right).

Jon W.


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 31 Aug 00 - 06:57 PM

Jon F, tunable whistles are always likely to be more practical than Generations for rough-and-ready sessions where tuning can wander far and wide either side of concert pitch. The tunable Susato gets my vote among the Ds - they're still cheap at less than a tenner. And the fipple is removable, which can be handy when it's time for a good clean-out.

Here's a thought,Bob. The Susato comes with moveable thumb-rest which I don't suppoe many of us actually need. If you could make a similar collar but with flange rather than thumb-rest, you could make a low-pitch whistle with two bottom holes. The user would decide which to expose for playing purposes, according to his/her handedness, if there's such a word.

But getting back to where this thread started, I very recently read (but cannot now track down) a glorious account, in ludicrous detail, by some crazy man who plays his whistles back to front in hurricanes. Or in the case of tunable whistles, he rotates one half against the other through 180 degrees, so he can have the mouthpiece upside down, with the window sheltered from the elements, but with the holes still where you'd expect to find them.

Somehow (don't ask!) this guy stumbled on the discover that non-tunable whistles can also be played upside down. The holes of course are then in towards the body, but the thing can still be played. You just curl your fingers right round till they reach. He's right, you can play a tune like this. I've atually tried it, in the privacy of my own home. With a bit more practice it will be a bizarre party trick. And that surely must be the last word on whistleplaying al fresco.


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 06:28 AM

G'day All,

Jon W: I have used a couple of different approaches now. Originally I made them like I made metal whistles in the '60s, shaping the end around a 3/4 square fipple. This allows some later manipulation with gently applied heat on the PVC tubing. I have also made them with round heads, a round hardwood fipple with a flattened airway and a labium pushed straight under heat.

I now prefer a round airway and labium, which uses a cylindrical fipple and an outer sleeve for the mouthpiece. This allws me to experiment with less 'chemical' taste, by picking a more inert head material. I have also used this approach with aluminium tubing for the whistle body.

Fionn: An alternative right/left bottom hole would work, although it needs something better than the Susato thumbrest to get a reliable seal. As long a the whistle is bespoke, holes can be placed to suit the buyer. 'Factory' makers don't want to know about anything but a straight line of holes ... but this is interesting when you consider that cheap (one or two-piece) descant recorders are always made in a relentlessly right-handed layout. Maybe the extra finger just laeves no choice.

Placing the whistle at the bottom of the tube is quite common on Eastern whistle - usually bamboo. It works just as well, but probably loses a bit of volume, since it projects back towards the acoustically absorbent areas of the chest.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: tin whistle in keyd and b flat sheet music
From: GUEST,ed
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:12 PM

i'm new to playing the tin whistle, question can you play the sheet music for key d using the b flat whistle or is the fingering completly different for the key d whistle


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Subject: whistle key D ,Key B Flat
From: GUEST,eddie
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:21 PM

KEY D , KEY B FLAT ,is fingering and notes same for both in regards to playing the same sheet music, or do i need to get a beginners book for B flat seperate from book for Key D.


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:31 PM

Guest ed - Basically the whistle is a 'transposing instrument' so you
finger it as per the dots and it plays in the key the whistle is tuned to . So IF the dots are 'C' the Bflat plays Bflat ,if the dots are 'G' the Bflat plays Aflat and so on .
Reference earlier question on Generations , it seems to me that the low price means that there is negligible quality control - Get one that DOES work and it will be a good whistle , but a lot of the mouthpieces are absolutely USELESS .


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: Burke
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:09 PM

Play the D music on the B flat instrument with the same fingering & you'll be playing a major 3rd lower. The scales are fingered the same. If you want to play music written in B flat on your B flat whistle, you'll need to re-learn which lines & spaces go with the fingers. The order will be the same.


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: GUEST,needs help
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 07:26 PM

i am doing a penny whistle project and i need to know what is the penny whistles past and present please help me


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Subject: RE: Tin/Penny Whistle Question
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 03:04 AM

Go to the Chiff & Fipple site - improve your web skills by searching for it - and you will find more info there than you wanted. Also if you use the local search engine here, you will lots of threads with heaps of info here too.

Robin


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Mudcat time: 26 May 8:19 PM EDT

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