BS: Old Pocket Watches

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 03:03 PM

One reason I like the old 18 size- the crown is easy to grip with my arthritic fingers.
The better watches were machined to extremely fine tolerances, and ruby and sapphire jewels, harder than steel, bore the spindles to the little wheels that went round and round, guaranteeing a long life.
Not perfect, but well-made. Watchmakers of the time always had a supply of repair parts. Even small towns along RR lines had a good watchmaker, certified by the RR, who could put a sick watch back to top condition.

Watchmakers capable of doing repair to old watches today took up the parts left over after the manufacturers ceased operation.
Last week I received back a watch of a great grandads. It needed a new mainspring, and a roller jewel. The watchmaker had the "new" old stock mainspring on hand but it took a while to locate the proper roller jewel, also new old stock.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 09:02 AM

They are not perfect my friend, but they were made by craftsmen who took great care and pride in their work.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 14 Sep 11 - 07:48 AM

I also don't understand how anything mechanical can be perfect.

The crown on the 16 and the 12 is so small they are hard to get a grip on.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 11:25 PM

guest was me sorry, and i meant crown not crow

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 10:05 PM

Kendall
after so many years the crow gets worn smooth, the stem gets bent or not fully seated ... that is the normal reason ... easy repair however. I got a couple myself that wind hard but not to the point where I want to invest money

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 09:13 PM

This is incredible. One week and my number 16 Elgin is right on the money!

I wonder why some watches wind hard and others so easily?

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 09:02 PM

Dean box er up their guy ... I will get some custom pants made :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 08:24 PM

Which one of you wants this one we found in SantaFe? Dan, what size number does it look to be?

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 07:25 PM

always wanted to see Calgary ... the photo's I have seen of it is breathtaking beautiful ... Always is in the Rockies for sure ...
great fishing I hear

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 07:09 PM

I have a good one here in beautiful downtown Calgary, olddude.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 06:35 PM

Have Mahlon do it Q ... you will be pleased at the price

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 06:33 PM

Obviously some of my watches need the service of our watchmakers. It has been many years since they have been cleaned and adjusted. I will have that done for one or two, but the expense is too great to treat more than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 04:58 PM

I am more inclined to believe it is less about the watch accuracy of the 992B's and more about the master watchmaker who serviced them both

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 04:55 PM

I take it back one 992B is 10+ sec slow. The other I cannot even measure. At exactly 4:53 it hit exactly 4:53 my God those things are impressive. However not in the race. The Illinois is more than 1 full min fast more like min and half to nearly two

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 04:37 PM

992B's not in the race but both are only 10+ secs off. My 992 is terrible now dropped to 3 full min. My 940 is out, it wound down last night. The Illinois in the race is now a full minute off

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 11 - 01:54 PM

After 1 week-
Crescent Street within 1/2 minute.
Others (not in contest)-
Bunn 60hr Special- 2 min slow; 992B, 2 min fast; 1881 Elgin America 1 1/2 min fast; Waltham Bartlett 3/4 min fast.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 12:03 PM

Poor old number 18 didn't wake up this morning, but number 16 is perfect.12 is a close second.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 12 Sep 11 - 11:02 AM

Illinois and my 992B's are running far better than RR time. However my one Hamilton 992 is off 3 full minutes. That watch needs service for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 11 Sep 11 - 11:22 AM

Old number 18 is half a minute fast, but numbers 16 and 12 are right on.(Elgin)

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 07:35 PM

Thanks, Dan. That is most helpful.
Btw, all three Elgins are right on the money.

It's hard to set them because the time keeps changing on the TV or computer, and I can't control the second hands.

I'm amazed at how much interest this subject has generated.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 02:14 PM

Barry Goldberg gives a chart and explanation of watch sizes. This confused me also for a time.

http://barrygoldberg.net/watchinfo.htm
Several topics to click on including:

Click on, "What Size Is My Watch?" or go direct to http://barrygoldberg.net/watchguide/size.htm

You will find other charts for European watches.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 02:09 PM

Fat one is 18. Middle one is 16, your small one is 12 .. since I know your watches these are correct captain

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 01:07 PM

Can you explain sizes to me? I have a little one, a medium one and a fat one.All Elgins.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 08:52 PM

My Elgin 17 Jeweled 600 series (nice watch) really needs service or demagnetized. Running 4 min fast

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 07:51 PM

21J I am sorry typo ... it is the size 12 1925 or so Illinois gents with the bad dial that Ethan is going to send me a replacement. Malin tuned it up for me before the wind off but didn't have a 12 dial. I figured it would show its age in a few days but it is purring along even better than my 992B's or at least as good. With the dial nuts up I have to wait till it hits a big number to be sure. So far though when my cell says x my Illinois is right there. My 992B's look a few secs slow but that could be the setting time also. One of my 992's is off a min and half ... time for service on that one

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 06:37 PM

olddude, what is that 22j Illinois? Do you mean 21j? What model?
I could go back on your messages, but I have to check on the butter chicken I have simmering away, and fix dinner right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 06:26 PM

Added an 1881 Elgin Bartlett to those I have on my desk. Two days late, but I'll keep it going for the two more days to se how it comes out.
I will find out if the extra watches need cleaning and/or adjusting.

MY entry watch, the Crescent Street, is right on with the computer time. Too early to tell if it will stay in the running.

Another old Waltham 18s is also "on time." A Bunn Special 21j 60hr is a hair slow, but hard to measure. A Waltham 17j with "Canadian Railway Time" engraved on the bridge is 4 minutes slow and obviously needs cleaning. The 992B is about 2 1/2 minutes fast. Another Waltham model 1908, 17j (just a good but unexceptional watch that I am trying to adjust) is also about 2 1/2 minutes fast.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 04:48 PM

It aint over til it's over.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 04:26 PM

Your Elgin is doing pretty good. I can see my one 992 needs serviced. It has lost over a full minute. The 992B are a few secs off. The 22 Jeweled Illinois is bang on ... hmmm go figure, that one is a gents watch not a RR watch. The old 940 with the weak mainspring is right on also maybe a sec or two slow ...

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 08:42 AM

It happened. One of my Elgins stopped in the night. It's out of the running. The Russian Rolex lost two minutes since Tuesday, the 572 lost half a minute but the big fat Elgin is right on the money. The Chinese Majesti gained a minute, so that's out.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 08 Sep 11 - 09:06 AM

I just have to remember to wind them every day. If one stops, it's toast.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 07:26 PM

Q
Doug otta know, he has forgotten more about watches than I will ever know for sure.

Those guys on the watch site are incredible. Mike offered one time to service my 992B for me for free. Ethan is sending me a dial for my Illinois and got mad when I offered to pay him. Great people there for sure. My God do they know the history.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 03:15 PM

Just got a 60hr Bunn Special, lever set, only 21j, but a good-looking movement. It was running when the package came (regular USPS). I have set it and put it next to the Crescent Street that I am keeping up with. I think the price was low since the back is monogrammed and there is a very short hairline at the 5-6 position that is almost covered by the face ring.
I won't look at them until next Tuesday- by then I shound know if the news is good or bad.

NAWCC has a good summary article on RR watches. Private labels were OK until WW1 era, then some of the RRs ruled those dials out. Doug Sinclair repaired one with a smalltown B.C. jeweler's name, a Brandt (Omega).

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 12:57 PM

Mine are right on also ... especially the Hamilton RR watches. My God those old things are impressive. I suspect my Illinois will start to show it's age after a week or so. Need Malin to work some magic on it. So far however it is right there

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 10:58 AM

So far, the two Elgins and the Chinese one are tied for first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 05:23 PM

Interesting article on Canadian Pacific RR watches.
http://people.timezone.com/msandler/Articles/ClitheroeRailroad/Railroad.html
The first watch developed specifically for the railroad trade was the Elgin "B. W. Raymond, which in the 1867 model was 15 jewel and key wound.
The last list was made in 1957, and included models of Zenith, Brandt (Omega) and Longines.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 03:16 PM

400. All 5 of my watches are ticking away. They don't know they are in a contest.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 02:48 PM

Never mind I see it. Cell phone is right on with US Official time

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 02:43 PM

Hey Q
I find it interesting, my cell phone time is about 20 sec slower than the Official US time. I wonder what clock AT&T use to send that signal . hmmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 02:25 PM

Q that is what I used the US Official time ... so far so good. It was fun to see some of the guys took starting pictures with their watches against the Time on the screen LOL ... I am going to lose miserably but having fun. I wanted to use my dollar watch but I couldn't get it to tick more than 10 sec.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 02:22 PM

I don't know if "screw-set" jewels were required on all RR accepted watches. Interesting point. Have to look in NAWCC threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 02:16 PM

Canadian RRs accepted watches with jewelers' names on the face, provided that the watch movement was on the approved list, and the watchmaker was certified to carry out service on the watches. If the regulator needed adjustment after repair/service, this was done by the watchmaker.

The serial number on my Model I Illinois, 99695, indicates manufacture in 1875-1876, not 1878 or later. Number 100,000 was made in 1876.
Named movements were common with Illinois watches, just what the "America" engraved on the movement signifies, and if other variations were used for Model I, I would like to know.

Not known to me are standards, if any, for RR watches before the 1880s. I hope queries at NAWCC will help.
I cannot find any information on when the manufacture of 24-hour dials by Illinois began.

I set my Crescent Street at 10AM today. Interested in seeing what it will be next Tuesday. I don't have an atomic watch, so I am using the time provided on my computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 11:07 AM

I do not know of any railroad that ever accepted a Private Jeweler Label. Not that the watches wouldn't keep railroad time, they just could not test every private label. Likewise, most all required American made watches.

When most people today service a watch, the regulator is largely ignored. It was factory set .. The service is done to the typical stuff like jewels, springs etc. There are very few people that know the factory specs and can set or repair the regulator during servicing. Malin puts that part back to factory standards .. That is why Kendall keeps saying it is right on it is right on ...

very few people I know can do that or will do that even if they have the ability ... time is money ... It is normal service to him

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Sep 11 - 10:27 AM

Are the jewels 'screw-set'?

Nope, Q. I don't think its a railroad standard job.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 11:44 PM

Frank:

Checking the references listed in the Illinois Watch Company Encyclopedia article, Illinois movement serial number 99695 can be seen to be, as you say, an 18-size, model 1, key-wind, key-set, 7-jewel, unadjusted, gilt, America grade movement, furnished with a plain regulator and a sunk-seconds Roman dial (the custormer's desire for a dial having 13-24 hour figures may have resulted in the dial you have). There were 15,900 of these built between about 1878 and 1882.

You may find the following Encyclopedia articles useful:

Watch Grades
Watch Models

Good luck,
__________________
Kent
That guy down in Georgia

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 09:14 PM

Camerden & Forster made quite a few of carriage clocks. I use to have one but sold it about 5 years ago. Most of those Jewelers imported the clock movements from Germany ... when they got into pocket watch movements 9 out of 10 were Illinois. The quality was there and Illinois was more than willing to deal with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 09:05 PM

Illinois was prolific at selling their movements to private Jewelers. If you go to the NAWCC website Larry has a thread and keeps a list and adds to it all the time. They were very Marketing oriented company for sure. They made great watches also

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 08:51 PM

http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Illinois+Watch+Company&&highlight=illinois+America+movement

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 06:25 PM

If you have the Shugart or the Illinois book, maybe you can tell me about the "America" movement in an Illinois, key wind key set, 1875 date.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 05 Sep 11 - 03:12 PM

Greg
I will bet a diet coke that you have a private label Illinois watch. Illinois did a lot of that back them. The spring up everywhere. Send me a picture of the movement and I can nail it for you

Dan