BS: Old Pocket Watches

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 10:09 PM

Dan, old buddy, I got to looking at this Elgin you gave me and I found that all it needed was a tiny drop of thin oil on the balance wheel. Well, not on the wheel itself but the jewel.
It has been running for over two hours.
I don't know what model it is but it is quite fancy. Thanks again.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 03:31 PM

Here is the molinja I was talking about. My Russian 18 Jeweled Railroad watch. I saw one of ebay for 200 buck ... NO .. you can get them for 30 bucks. You can drop them, dunk them and they keep on running. Full exact Rolex copy movement ... If you are going to pirate a watch, why not pirate a Rolex I guess ... LOL ... This one I have is circa 1962

Russian

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 03:18 PM

Another great great carry watch that will not break the bank is the latter day Elgin's. Here is my Elgin 616 US made circa 1950. I bought this watch for 50 bucks and never yet had it serviced since it keeps perfect time. These watches are everywhere, this one is 17 Jeweled and they are beautiful carry watches that won't break the bank

616 Elgin

In the late 50's they started to import their movements from Switzerland those do not have the DP on the face. Yet they are a fine carry watch and you can get them for under 50 bucks ... great watch for carrying around and keeping good time

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 03:06 PM

The Chinese also make excellent cheap watches.
I have a self-winding 27-jewel wristwatch, that shows, day, month and date. List $99, but I am sure one could get it for half that.
Timex is OK, but the Russian and Chinese watches make it obsolete.

One thing I don't know yet- how long these watches will keep good time without needing service (which will cost more than the watch). Only time will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 09:56 AM

If any of you want a pocket watch that keeps great time and costs little go and look for a Russian molnija pocket watch on ebay. They are everywhere on ebay at all prices. Normally you can get an 18 jeweled molnija for under 30 bucks. The Russians in the 60's copied the Rolex movement. They are inexpensive and take a real beating. I put one through the washing machine and it still ran and kept time. Collectors are not very interested in them hence they have little value but they are great mechanical watches that just run and run. I never had one serviced. After many years I just put it aside or I serviced it myself by squirting lighter fluid in it ... then the things still run and keep time for another 5 years before doing the same LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 08:41 AM

Slag
wow is that rare, that is one of the oldest Illinois I know of .. how wonderful you still have it and treasure it.   The Illinois watches throughout their history were one of the the top models produced anywhere. They are highly prized by collectors and from what my repair guys say, one of the best to work on ... great watch thanks for sharing. I have an Illinois that dates to the early 1900's I believe. Wonderful time keepers also. Here is some history of the company

Illinois watch company

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:14 PM

Kendall - next time you come to the UK, bring your Elgin pocket watch with you so my other half can take a look at it!

K
xx

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 07:37 PM

The above is from Slag

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 07:33 PM

old dude! Dan, I got My Dad's old railroad watch out from under the glass bell and here are the particulars: It is an Illinois #220808 which puts it post Civil War, somewhere in the 1870's I believe. It's a key winder with a simple metal case and a "1" over "A" engraved on the inside case door. It also has a personal engraving very lightyly done on the same peice. It is in very good to execellent condition and keeps excelllent time, provided, of course, that you keep it wound! The key/wrench was also to be used to set the hand positions and the nut is scarred some but, remarkably the face has no damage. It is my understanding that this type of watch was often damaged and the hands were replaced regularly and that is what lead to the invention of the "stem-winder" which eliminated the need to touch the hands or the nut which holds them.

I know a little of the history of this piece but not of it's deep past or original owner. The RR watches are high-quality time machines that relect the time when durability and quality were the norm and folks didn't just toss their possessions aside when something went wrong. Glad you started this thread Dan! Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 08:30 PM

Good repair is expensive, as noted previously.
For estimate, see Renaissance Watch Repair- email PocketWatchRepair.com

Estimate not refundable, but reasonable. Six-8 month repair time.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:42 PM

My 80 year old Pocket Ben is ticking away and keeping very good time.
Herga Kitty, I have an old Elgin pocket watch which refuses to run. I would love to have it repaired but I'm afraid some ham handed clod will either break it or lose it.
I do love old RR watches.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:22 PM

I was avoiding opening this thread because my partner mends and restores clocks and watches (and musical boxes) for a living, but I thought Kendall's post at 12.38 on 28 July pretty well summed up why people want their clocks and watches mended and repaired.

Kitty

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 04:29 PM

My new daily carry watch, This is a hamilton 992   21 jeweled lever set railroad watch. The 992 was certified for use on every railroad in the country. I had it fully serviced adjusted to 5 positions. This was the forerunner to the 992B which I don't carry daily cause I am afraid of breaking it.

Incredible how accurate these old watches are

hamilton 992

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 06:40 PM

I saw a wwII Hamilton Ships clock 1942 for the bridge all brass, windup , amazing on ebay. No nothing I could afford but wow was it pretty 31 Jewels ...

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 06:26 PM

Oh, my! You definitely have caught the Hamilton bug.

A fellow in town here, former railroader, has dozens of Hamiltons, collected over many years.
They were wrecking a jail in a small town near here, and he bought one of the cells, which he installed in his house. Safe storage!.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 02:38 PM

Dang a 945 ... awesome watch ... whoooo been looking for one of those also but no hurry ... so far my Hamilton collection is a 940 ... I carry it a lot even though it is size 18, the 992B mint and the 992 mint. I made a total steal on the 992 ... Jeweler buddie said no need for service, it is perfect ... that's cool ... saved me 50 bucks. Now my site are a 992L yup ...

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Oct 10 - 02:20 PM

No 992 (just my b) but a fine 945 Special, 21j, 1902 date.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 06 Oct 10 - 05:33 PM

Well I finally found the mate to my 992B, a 1919 992 21 Jeweled beauty ... do you have one of them Q ? they had a 5 lever adjustment instead of the 6 it is the father of the 992b. got to get it serviced ...

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:59 PM

forgot to post a pic of the 992b the kids got me holy cow I made out this year bigtime

992b

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:53 PM

My Grandpa, my Dad's dad, was a quiet ol' chap. I only have memories of him being very, very old...but one Sunday a month he'd come over for Sunday dinner, with my Dad's twin brother, Uncle Gray, and his wife, Auntie Connie. Grandpa would sit there looking a bit awkward, very formerly dressed in a his three piece suit...but he'd start to thaw a little when my brother and I used to beg him to show us his pocket watch. Out it would come, slowly, slowly, the chain like a long silver ribbon...and he'd open it up for us, as we'd sit and gaze at the face..enraptured. It was really prettily engraved on the case too..I used to love to hold it close, listen to it ticking, ticktockticktock..

My brother has it now, I think..

Grandpa was in his 90's back then..and it must have been about 40 years back..

Old watch..old story...old memories..

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:45 PM

wow got this for my birthday from an NFL coach buddie ...first My daughter got me my 992B and then this shows up from the coach .. wow

1903 Elgin

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:25 PM

I have a 940, from 1901-1902, labeled 'Special' on the bridge; not many of these made. Runs accurately. Should be cleaned, however.
940s are excellent watches, but at 18 size, a bit larger and heavier than the 992b.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 01:18 PM

Q
I have a Hamilton 940 21 Jeweled. It belonged to a guy who's granpa worked on the B+O RR. The case is all worn, lots of brassing. The original dial was replaced in 1920's with a metal dial, the old watch fob is all dirty from years of use. I bought it a month ago for 60 bucks. I been using it daily ... I set it to my cell phone and no kidding it has not lost anything, right on .. man these Hamilton's were something special. This 940 was made in 1905. I am sure it has not been serviced in forever but boy does is run. This 992 is amazing ... it is absolutely mint. I doubt it was carried much at all. I probably won't carry it except for some very special occasions. I would cry it I damaged this 992b

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 12:56 PM

Enjoy!
A great watch.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:15 AM

For my birthday tomorrow. My kids got together unknown to me. They sent me a mint Hamilton 992-B railroad watch. Perfect shape ... I am speechless!! I set it yesterday to my cell phone time. Ran all night and it is dead nuts on.

I don't even know how they found out it was the one I wanted for years. Never dropped a hint. Maybe my wife told them ...

speechless

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 10:35 PM

In the 1880s a jeweler named Spitz installed a free-standing clock on the sidewalk outside his shop, Santa Fe, NM. I saw in the online paper that it has just been repaired and was in operation again. Don't know who has it now, but the jeweler died many years ago. The clock is being installed again on the Santa Fe Plaza.
The brass workings weigh 45 pounds, and fit inside a cast iron free-standing case. It is a windup clock.
The clocksmith said it was trying to rig a ship inside a wastebasket.
(Don't people still rig model ships inside bottles?).

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:03 PM

I want that one Dean

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 08:55 PM

Hey, Dan; how about this one?

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 08:09 PM

The 616 was Elgin's move to parity the 992. Even the case is similar with the bar over the crown. It is a fine watch but not even close to a 992. Elgin also came up with a 21 Jeweled version that one will go toe to toe for the most part with a 992, however, the 992 holds up better I think and so do many others. Mine is a Model 616 17 jewel, 6 adjustments, pendant set, 27,000 made.



Great Article by Bob Sharp

The Model 616 is one of a family of six 16-Size watches made by Elgin from the mid-?40s through the early to mod-?50s. This family of watches was Elgin?s last series of U.S.-made 16-Size watches. The models in this range are characterized by a number of shared parts and a common overall ?architecture.? They all use pressed-in jewels on the plates, an uncut balance wheel with a hairspring of an Elinvar-type alloy, and a fairly simple wide damascening pattern. They have the look of a cost-optimized design and as though they were designed for a higher level of automation (or lower level of highly skilled labor) in assemply.

All six models in this group were cased and timed at the factory and the case should say this on the inside of the back. Half a dozen or more case styles were used in yellow gold-fill, rolled gold plate and stainless steel. In general, the lesser watches used the RGP cases although the top Model 571 was cased in this style for export to Canada ? probably to reduce duty. The stainless case also seems most commonly used on the 571 model movement. In any event, any of these cases will accommodate any of the movements (provision for the setting lever, where necessary, being the only caveat). The cases are unique to these models because the watches use a set-screw to retain the winding stem in the movement rather than in the sleeve of the case. The cases all should also have a semi-circular cut-out on the inner perimeter on the movement side. This is to clear the regulator adjustment screw which has its head on the outboard side, just the opposite of previous Elgin experience.

All of the watches should also have single sunk dials (faux single sunk on later models, by means of a lathe cut circle around the seconds bit ? cost cutting?). On all but the very earliest of these dials, there should be a stylized ?dp? trademark to signify Elgin?s use of their ?DuraPower? mainspring, allegedly unbreakable. Two styles of dial were common on all five of the lower grades: bold boxcar Arabic numerals or Montgomery numeric dials. The top model (571 B.W. Raymond) used variations on these two schemes, but usually with the marking ?B. W. Raymond? on the dial as well. Some 24-hour dials also exist as used in Canadian applications.

Finally, on to the details of the individual models/movements. As you will see, your Model 616 is relatively uncommon. That?s not to say anything about its value. As you discovered, they are around to be found. But as a less common model in this set, it can be difficult to find one in very good condition, particularly since many of the 616 came in the quick-to-wear rolled gold plated cases (and that still doesn?t necessarily mean that it?s valuable, just depends on who wants one).

Model 571 B. W. Raymond 21 jewels, 8 (some marked as 9) adjustments, lever set, approximately 87,000 made. This model is the top of the food chain in this group. It was a railroad grade/railroad approved model.

Model 572, 19 jewel, 5 adjustments, lever set, 18,000 were made.

Model 573, 17 jewel, 5 adjustments, lever set, 51,000 made.

Model 574, 17 jewel, 5 adjustments, pendant set, 49,000 made.

Model 575, 15 jewel, 4 adjustments, pendant set, 57,000 made.


As noted, only the 21-jewel B. W. Raymond Model 571 was a true railroad grade/ railroad approved watch. I have seen some of the others advertised recently as ?streetcar conductor?s watches? or similar claims. I don?t know the validity of these claims.

As far as the matter of adjustments is concerned, I believe that Elgin was indulging in a bit of marketing excess when they rated the watches. Thanks to the hairspring and better quality mainsprings, they were all probably inherently adjusted to temperature and isochronism. That means three possible adjustments were ?gimmies? ? isochronism and temperature (heat and cold). Few other watchmakers (apart from Waltham on the later 23-jewel Vanguards) counted such adjustments when the movements were marked. However, considering that the 571 B. W. Raymond starts with a claimed 8 or 9 adjustments, it stands to reason that the lesser models probably included the three intrinsic adjustments in the total marked on their movements. As a result, to make an apples-to-apples comparison with the markings traditionally used on other brands of watches, these models should probably be ?discounted? by 3 adjustments to yield an equivalent specification.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 07:00 PM

Hey Q
here are my two latest. The first is the model 6, 1913 17 Jeweled.
The second is a model 616 Circa 1943 17 Jeweled ... both elgins and both in perfect running condition.

1913 Elgin model 6

1943 Elgin model 616

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 11:03 PM

Good Idea, I didn't wind one of my Elgins for quite some time. It use to be right on the money but now it runs slow and stops. Cleaning time but I don't think it is good for them not to run for a long time. I could be wrong ... I think at least a couple times a year they should be wound up and left to wind down just to keep everything free and moving

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 10:50 PM

Just wound up another, Waltham 1919 17 j (good, not great watch), gold fill? hunter case (number only), fine concentric pattern on case, runs well.
I should wind my watches more often.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 10:18 PM

Good point Q. This was in regard to a carry pocket watch if you or anyone on this thread wanted a great old pocket watch at a small cost. but no doubt the automatic you talked about has my interest.   Right now I am wearing this old Louis automatic. Been keeping amazing good time. My buddie Garry just gave me a very old Croton automatic that was being scrapped at the end of an estate sale. he bought it for me for a couple of bucks. Needs a new watch band but seems to work just fine

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 10:01 PM

I don't doubt that they are good. The new Chinese watches may be even better. I am wearing a 27 jewel automatic with month, day and date functions, an attractive watch that keeps excellent time. Retail $98, but I see some on Ebay that go for half that.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 09:54 PM

Q
this is the one you want, I bought from this guy in the Ukraine, it takes a while to get it but wow

russian railroad watch


and sorry the company name is MOLNIA

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 09:39 PM

Q
   jump on ebay and nail yourself one of the Russian Railroad watches from
Molniya
No kidding those things are incredibly accurate 18 Jeweled and you can get one under 30 bucks. The were built to handle a drop off a building. Boy they built them. For carry purposes and don't want to mess up a great old antique watch these things are amazing. Just try typing Russian pocket watch in the search .. the railroad ones will come up.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 09:34 PM

Nice one!

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 09:13 PM

It is a GRADE 386, 17 JEWELS, SER # 17,542,380 , CIRCA 1913. MODEL 6

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 08:55 PM

Should have added that the 1894 Elgin hunter is a sidewinder. Never really thought about that before.
Wouldn't mind having one of those old 21j Raymonds, but my wife says no.

What model is the Elgin you picked up?

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:44 PM

I love the Elgins .. those old Elgin railroad watches were something special also

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:54 PM

Right, if you had to shake it, the least it needs is cleaning, but could be something serious.
Yes, I would like to see the Elgin.
I have two Elgins, my great-grandfather's which I mentioned before, and is off for repair, and one in a gold-filled Hunter case (marked Rambler), 16 size, 1894 date, lever set, model 3, but only 11 jewels. Runs well. My mother got it from a neighbor, years ago.
Just dug it out and wound it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:29 PM

Q
I will post ya a picture of this 1913 Elgin, Absolutely beautiful and there is a certificate of service 4 months ago. Case is rolled gold high scroll work. Mint condition watch . Keeping perfect time .. made one heck of a deal on it. They brought it out at the end of the auction and there was only a couple of people left. I was very fortunate .. didn't understand why they did that unless they just found it in the estate and dragged it out. Either way, glad I nailed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 05:20 PM

Thats a dandy Q, I am going to try and snipe it... the one for 500 I seriously looked at it ... after I wound it I had to shake it to get it started ... tells me something is going on it ... I walked away

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 04:19 PM

Looks like about $250 is the take charge bid for 992b on the offers that don't have a high price posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 04:17 PM

olddude, if you are sure of the condition of the $500 watch, just remember that a $200 one on Ebay is likely to cost you another $300 to service.

But take a look at 230516921786. Canadian 24 hr dial(not military).
Essentially like mine, but case of mine is Fortune gold-filled, made in Canada. I can't tell where the case on this offer was made.
At one time, however, there were several companies in Canada making cases, some of which were used in the States.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 09:32 PM

AAAGH ... I was so close on the bid for the 992-B on ebay. 1 buck I lost it for 1 buck !!... It was a railroad special also .. crap .. the price was one that I could afford also .. not one of the 500 dollar deals you see all the time .. It closed at 207 .. man what a deal for someone .. should have went higher but who knows what the other guy actually bid .. could be I would have still lost

I went to an auction Saturday, I got a mint I mean mint 1913 Elgin rolled gold case beautiful scroll work .. just serviced .. perfect .. perfect time ..

78 bucks and worth every cent ..

going to put it away for my grandson .. That was very cool

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 04:05 AM

I like the Elgin because it fits into modern watch pockets whereas the old fat RR watch couldn't

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 12:38 AM

Value will always be measured in pleasure, not money.

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 08:49 PM

sorry it is hampden
can't type

Subject: RE: BS: Old Pocket Watches
From: olddude
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 08:43 PM

My 1883 Hampton RR is so dead nuts accurate I cannot believe it. You may not believe me but I set the thing to a modern battery wrist watch and it matches it minute for minute ... I been winding it twice a day wake up in the morning and check it ... spot on ... when I carry it .. spot on ... what anything that is made today would work so well for so many years ...
my goodness they built things in the past