BS: Muslim prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:22 PM

PS
And there's more - but you'll have to wait till I stock up on my supply of Philosan
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:19 PM

"but no single·solitary·example as requested"
Just to show we're still friends Mike - wouldn't do it for anybody!!
Jim Carroll

The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians.
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians.
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians
Girls were the victims of grooming and sex abuse by mainly Pakistani men
Girls were the victims of grooming and sex abuse by mainly Pakistani men
Girls were the victims of grooming and sex abuse by mainly Pakistani men
Girls were the victims of grooming and sex abuse by mainly Pakistani men
Girls were the victims of grooming and sex abuse by mainly Pakistani men
Girls were the victims of grooming and sex abuse by mainly Pakistani men
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation
massive over representation

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 12:02 PM

"For those who would like to castigate me for sudden 'conversion',"

I may have wrongly (paranoid, moi?) taken this comment as a swipe in my direction. Keith (whoever he is) is not my friend, either virtually or in real life. I do however find it problematic that I find myself in an arena where I feel alienated from those I would usually identify with, and instead occupying a space more commonly occupied by those of a rather different political stripe than my own.

That however is of course my issue. Meanwhile, here is another article by Julie Bindel from Dec. 2010 on the same topic (also flagged up by the same poster at Carespace) Gangs, Girls and Grooming, whose conclusion sums up some of my already expressed feelings on this matter:

"These gangs will be allowed to operate with impunity if we deny their existence in some sort of twisted attempt to be anti-racist and culturally sensitive. Some people, including many white liberals, are loath to admit what it is going on. If we do not tackle the problem head-on, and work together to combat this dreadful abuse of children, the only beneficiaries will be the extremists."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 10:23 AM

OK Brer Jim. Happy to fuggeddit.

All I axed for was ONE SINGLE SOLITARY EXAMPLE of Keith's saying something that all of you have repeatedly said he KEEPS SAYING

All I got back was yet another assertion that he was evasive

but no single·solitary·example as requested

So just please don't throw me into the briar patch, Brer Don, Brer Jim, Brer Lox...

~ anything but the briar patch!

Ha ha... Gotcha! ...bawn&bred in a briar patch, Brer Don,Brer Jim, Brer Lox...

... So happy to fuggeddit.


LotsaLuv from Brer ~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 10:19 AM

Lox, there a some heartbreaking victims' testimonies in the Mothers Of Despair link.
Not under oath though.
Filthy liars, right Lox.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 08:58 AM

This is a discussion from a forum for social care professionals that I read through some time ago. I think it makes interesting reading, with a variety of differing opinions being expressed there, as here: Carespace Forums

One of the posters flagged up this Times article from 2007 by Julie Bindel, discussing the reluctance of the authorities to get involved in the upsurge of crimes of oganised pimping gangs in the North:
Mothers of Prevention

She concludes her article thus:

"In all of these cities, victims such as Sally are facing an explosive mix of brutality and denial – from the authorities and the Pakistani community. It seems easier for many people to pretend it is not happening. The girls involved just don't have that choice."

It's worth noting that Julie Bindel is another feminist journalist, who is particularly involved in campaigns opposing violence against women from a feminist perspective. I have sympathy with this position. For those who would like to castigate me for sudden 'conversion', I don't believe I've ever disputed whether or not there is sufficient evidence to indicate a phenomenon involving pimping gangs of Pakistani heritage, grooming and trafficking young girls in the North and Midlands.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 08:53 AM

Mike:
As with every other thread where I have come into contact with Keith, I inevitably come away with the feeling that I have just had a close encounter with one of Br'er Rabbit's Tar Babies.
He comes to these threads knowing nothing, he takes proprietorship of them, he takes it upon himself to personally answer every contributor, mostly in an extremely condescending manner - he makes them his own and conducts them as if they were his personal property.
I have summed up as best I can my feelings of his behaviour here on what I believe to be a very important and sensitive subject, and you, like he, have chosen to ignore the effect of what he has said and continue to remain silent on his dishonesty, while he just denies it.
I have no intention of falling out with you any more than I already have.
As you so aptly put it "FUGGEDDIT!"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 08:19 AM

""I have made no conclusions at all about the culture.""
ANOTHER LIE!!
You have repeatedly stated that British Pakistanis are, by reason of their culture) predisposed to acts of Paedophilia, rape and sex trafficking.
Don
====
WHERE, Don? Just stop asserting, & copy&paste just ONE extract from one of Keith's posts where he sez that.

Go on ···

Hurry up; I'm waiting....

Or Jim; or Lox; or any of you smartarses who have made the same allegation. You've gone on&on&on&on&·tediously·ON saying it; but as for an actual quote ~ even one hi-lited in Jim's notorious 6 pages ~~

FUGGEDDIT!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 07:38 AM

Don, when this started I knew nothing about this culture.
I am in no position to make any conclusions about it.
A number of people have, and in the absence of any other explanation I think they might be right.
As I said to you earlier, I will consider any alternative idea with an open mind.
Do you have one Don?

Don, I do not lie, and I am no racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 07:16 AM

""I have made no conclusions at all about the culture.""

ANOTHER LIE!!

You have repeatedly stated that British Pakistanis are, by reason of their culture) predisposed to acts of Paedophilia, rape and sex trafficking.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 07:13 AM

""There is no evidence of significant numbers of other groups in this particular crime.
There surely are others involved, but BPs are disproportionately represented.""

British Pakistanis are disproportionally represented in a sample of no statistical significance because it is too small to lead to firm conclusions.

And you simply cannot support any hypothesis about cultural predelections unless you include all the members of that culture.

More than half of British Pakistanis show no such tendencies, and of the minority whom you accuse of those tendencies, only a very tiny proportion succumb.

That number is WAY TOO SMALL TO SUPPORT ANY FIRM CONCLUSION.

That is why the hypothesis that these gangs are Traffickers and Paedophiles who just happen to be Pakistanis (mainly! not ALL, as you continually assert) because gangs tend to be composed of one ethnic group, whatever group that might be, should be considered.

And you have steadfastly refused to do that, making you even more guilty of bias than those (including myself) whom you accuse.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 06:33 AM

Lox,
"Keiths position has been that a cultural predisposition is the only possible explanation for te overrepresentation of Pakistanis in this type of crime."

FALSE!
I said it is the only explanation that has emerged.
It still is Lox. Right?
Please remember that this explanation was produced by various reputable people, including BPs like Mohammed Shafiq, Jasmin Allibhai_Brown and Lord Ahmed.
I merely reported it.
Just be honest Lox, and stop making up lies to try and discredit me.

(You seem to be accepting the over-representation now.)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 05:44 AM

Keith has very clearly stated earlier in this thread that the reason more Pakistanis do not commit sex crimes is because they are able to overcome their cultural predisposition to rape.

Keiths position has been that a cultural predisposition is the only possible explanation for te overrepresentation of Pakistanis in this type of crime.

In fact, he hasn't posted any actual evidence to support his most basic premise.

His argument has been circular.

Jack Straw thinks x

Keith agrees with jack straw.

Keiths evidence to support his position is the testimony of Jack Straw...

...and some other people who also agree with him.

We have heard a REPORT that hundreds of ALLEGATIONS were made.

We have not seen evidence of these hundreds of allegations.

If they exist, we have no idea what they say, or who made them.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 05:35 AM

I am no racist, and have never made a racist post.
Not on the "Death penalty..." thread or any other.
Make a liar of me and produce one Jim.
Why don't you?

The "friend" who posts as Guest 999 is actually a long established member, and he is sincere in all his posts.
You should not try to ridicule a good man.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Smedley
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 05:20 AM

OK, you can all admit it now - APRIL FOOL !!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 05:13 AM

"life is far too short and there's far too little of it left"

Amen to that, Jim. Never a truer word spoken! <> :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 05:06 AM

Michael,
"Do, please, at least try to consider again what I have said here, which I firmly & sincerely believe to be the truth."
I too had no intention of re-joining this thread; I did so to respond to a comment by somebody else.
If you can't see the effect of the sheer weight of Keith's posts aimed scattergun fashion, sometimes at 'British Pakistanis', sometimes at 'BPs in northern towns and cities', bandying terms like "BPs are the overwhelming majority of offenders.", or "There are mountains of evidence that BPs are the overwhelming majority of offenders.", or "We can agree that Pakistanis are the majority offenders in Pakistani gangs"; and asking loaded questions like "Is this as a crime carried out by the majority of the Pakistani population in Britain?".... when you haven't specified your terms of reference, then one of us needs to visit Specsavers. As far as I am concerned, they become direct attacks on the culture as a whole, more so when they are repeated over and over and over and over and over again and especially when the blame has been firmly at the door of that culture almost from the outset.
I suggest you read those six pages over a couple of times slowly and ask yourself what the motive of a writer of such statements could possibly be. Of course he is not saying directly that all British Pakistanis are paedophiles, he daren't – it doesn't work like that and it doesn't have to; it's the drip – drip – drip effect that does the damage; something that Keith excels in.
I have suspected in the past, and now am left with no doubt whatever that Keith is a racist; that is plain from his contributions to the 'Death for homosexuality' and 'immigration' and other similar threads, which he takes seriously enough to deny he has said some of the things that are set down in black and white.
Nor do I have any doubt that he is dishonest and is prepared to manipulate 'evidence' to support his stance – a fact you passed off as a misdemeanour and didn't refer to again, and which he proffered three (or four) different and conflicting explanations for - obviously something we disagree over the significance of.. For me, that indicated not only prejudice, but also purpose in that prejudice
And don't get me started over his 'friend's' hilarious and sudden "I only done it 'cos of the drugs m'lud" conversion - move over Elmer Gantry, you've been seriously upstaged!!! - certainly one of the lighter moments of this dire discussion.
If Keith is a 'victim' he has chosen to be such by dominating this thread the way he has chosen to and by his persistently keeping it alive (approaching 540 postings now). I feel no guilt in victimising him; as far as I am concerned he has attempted to victimise a whole culture and its people.
I have no doubt Keith will take some comfort from your support and, knowing him of old, I hope you don't find yourself playing Sinbad to his 'Old Man of the Sea'. I have no doubt of your sincerity, but I really am out of this sewer - life is far too short and there's far too little of it left.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 01:36 AM

Michael, you calm, reasoned and rational post is like a breath of mountain air in the fetid atmosphere of this thread.
Thank you.

I do not think that hatred of racism stops them seeing what I really say.
I believe it is a personal vendetta against me for challenging their hobby horses old threads.

Jim sought to use my posting history against me, but it is blameless.
So he made up a racist sounding thread name, PUT IT IN QUOTES, and ascribed it to me.
Why else would anyone do that?

Of Emma's testimony of her abuse, Lox stated that I made up sh*t and put words in her mouth.
Why else would he do that?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 11:59 PM

IMO Keith continues to be victimised. He has simply repeated the same facts as before (whose accuracy, as I have pointed out more than once previously, nobody in any of the wider communities involved has questioned), because they have been consistently met by irrelevancies widening the argument to alleged assertions he has not made about the whole Pakistani community.

Where,for instance, Jim, in all your pages and pages of cuttings from his posts, do you find the assertion, which you have repititively claimed to observe there, that tendency to rape is an invariable characteristic of that race which they have to resist? Hi-lite that/those specific quote[s] , please ~~ if you can find it/them. I still think, Jim, for all our mutual respect and usual online cordiality even in disagreement, previously favourably commented on above by BWM e.g., that an inaccurately suspected whiff of potential racism fills your ears with wax so that you don't hear what is actually being said. Keith's putative records of comment on other threads I still think of no evidential relevance here.

Lox too goes on & on accusing Keith consistently of saying things he hasn't said, & seems to have an odd view that if he wasn't there in person to see offences committed, he can't trust anyone else's word and so has no right to comment. {Mind, if anyone wants to know what Lox's assertions are worth, look again at some of the offensive and acknowledgedly vindictive ones he made of me a way upthread in explicit return for some imagined slights to him on other threads. He really revealed himself as a foolish & malevolent person. [Nobody is all bad, however: let me say here how impressed I have been by some of Lox's rare above-line most knowledgeable musical comments, e.g. on the B# thread; and how moved by some accounts there of a delightful relationship with his daughter]: pity, though, I repeat, about those many lapses, both in rational argument and in aggressive personal attacks!}

I hadn't meant to return to this thread; and I know that, like all who have turned it into such an interminable pain, I am just repeating what has been said before. But I just have this inalienable love of justice, which, I say yet again, I do not see Keith getting here from some whom I should have expected to know better.

Do, please, at least try to consider again what I have said here, which I firmly & sincerely believe to be the truth.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM

Jim, you are worryingly obsessive about Straw.
I will make it as clear as I can for you.
He made his statements on the BBC.
Here is the quote form their site.
" "But there is a specific problem which involves Pakistani heritage men... who target vulnerable young white girls.

"We need to get the Pakistani community to think much more clearly about why this is going on and to be more open about the problems that are leading to a number of Pakistani heritage men thinking it is OK to target white girls in this way." "

That is him saying there is an over-representation.
There is corroboration from many other sources.

He goes on to say that it is not to do with race.
He says it is to do with the culture, in particular their own girls being off limits.
That is the hypothesis we have discussed.

He said loads of other stuff that I did not bother to paste up.
I did not mind you posting it at all, because it all supported me.

I am happy for you that you know some clever, technical tricks to pursue your obsession in less time than I feared.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 03:20 PM

Don,
"I have not accused you of anything other than drawing a conclusion by ignoring significant evidence to the contrary, which is what you have done, and continue to do."

I am not aware of having ignored any evidence.
Do you mean evidence of the over-representation?
There is no evidence of significant numbers of other groups in this particular crime.
There surely are others involved, but BPs are disproportionately represented.
Do you mean the explanation?
The only evidence for that is the stature of those proposing it, and the absence of an alternative.
No evidence to ignore Don.

"Unless you base your conclusions on the whole culture they simply are invalid."
I have made no conclusions at all about the culture.
I have left that to people familiar with it, or actually part of it Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 03:00 PM

"There was only one point, and I answered it."
No there wasn't and you answered none of them - and I'm not counting the ones others have asked you throughout the thread which you have dodged.
We do seem to be reaching one point of agreement though, that you are incapable of thinking outside of your cut-'n-paste box.
"Counting my posts!"
Took me as long as it takes to count up to 168 and subtract it from your total postings from your first posting on the subject in hand (certainly less than 4 minutes) - if you think it took longer you really should learn to use your computer!
"Do you not think that a bit irrationally obsessive Jim?"
Nope - 535 postings on a subject you admit you know nothing about is obsessive, 4 minutes is just diligent
"As was pasting up 6 pages...."n
Again, a diligent use of the search engine and it was done in no time at all - and certainly well worth the effort; it's not often that you see that much naked hatred and contempt gathered together in six posts, is it - bit difficult on the stomach though!
".....of my completely innocuous posts."
Innocuous - matter of opinon - I found depicting the British Pakistani people as cultrual paedophiles fairly revolting really - takes all sorts I suppose!!
"Or counting how many times I mentioned Straw. (43)"
Again - search engine and around three minutes - and wasn't it well worth it to witness the panic when you couldn't decide what excuse for editing what he had to say to stick with - I counted at least three - and when he dropped from number one to number ten in your hit parade.....magic - you don't get that with Mastercard!!
Certainly none of these took me anything like as long as it took you to find Straw's quote, read it (you must have read that one to edit out the awkward bits), and remove the contradictions.
I can see we're not going to get anywhere in asking you to read, digest and qualify you cut-'n-pastes - maybe later; perhaps when you've slept on it.....?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM

""It was blatant and groundless character assassination.
Shame on those who joined in with it.
Shame on those who read it and said nothing.""

I have not accused you of anything other than drawing a conclusion by ignoring significant evidence to the contrary, which is what you have done, and continue to do.

Unless you base your conclusions on the whole culture they simply are invalid.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 12:57 PM

There was only one point, and I answered it.
I hate racism too.
I am glad you used your brief absence wisely.
Counting my posts!
(535)
Do you not think that a bit irrationally obsessive Jim?
As was pasting up 6 pages of my completely innocuous posts.
Or counting how many times I mentioned Straw. (43)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 12:49 PM

Didn't think I'd get an answer to any of my points - but that might - just have required a little bit of analysis, wouldn't it.
How about a try - just for me!
"Have you noticed many changes since you left?"
Nope - you still appear to be in the minority of one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 11:56 AM

Irrational Jim.
Not being at all racist, I have never made a racist post.
Nice to see you back though.
Have you noticed many changes since you left?
Nearly 24 hours.
(irrational)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 11:19 AM

Congratulations Keith,
You have now reached your 535 posting to this thread (far, far in excess of any other contributor) on a subject you have admitted to knowing and possessing no experience about, and have offered not a single iota of analysis of your own - that has to be worthy of an entry in the Guinness Book of Records, surely!
Your entire input to this marathon thread has been a handful of cut-n-pastes, unanalysed by you and unjudgeable by the rest of us because we are not presented with the social context nor the background detail to which they refer. Any information that might have been helpful in reaching a conclusion (such as - that in the opinion of an ex Home Secretary, these crimes could in no way be linked to the race of the criminals and were rather the result of the behaviour of virile young men who could easily belong to any race or culture), were edited out by you in order not to get in the way of your own particular agenda.
We are presented, in the form of six pages of accusations and innuendo aimed directly at British Pakistanis and their way of life, with an hugely overstated picture of a genuine problem and asked to accept that the crimes we are presented are not the outcome of criminal behaviour but of a corrupt and debauched culture. I have no doubt that this will elicit yet another denial from you, but it really doesn't matter as the six pages are on view for all to see.
Whenever your (non)analysis has been challenged you have scurried behind your cut-n-pastes in an attempted to absolve yourself from your own projected agenda.
That is irrational hatred as far as I'm concerned; personally, I don't find hatred of racism in any way irrational.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 10:08 AM

Irrational hatred?
Nowhere on this thread Jim?
Only yours against me I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 09:41 AM

"prejudice seems to get targeted at communities and people who are misunderstood or mysterious"
That is very true Patsy; that is why society is forced to pass laws to pass laws to protect itself against igrorance and irrational hatred being used to attack 'strangers in our midst', pretty well as is happening here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 07:53 AM

And if the green aliens themselves acknowledged that there was an issue?
This is not made up Patsy.
Hundreds of children really have been subjected to brutal gang rape, with all the consequences to their young lives that implies.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 07:50 AM

"(Unless you do not believe that anything needs explaining!)"

I'm not denying that phenomena may require explaining, but I wouldn't presume that a personal opinion formed by me - or anyone else - on the basis of a handful of Google searches, was sufficient to usefully "explain" anything.

I believe that you, I or anyone else here should feel comfortable discussing difficult topics, expressing opinions on those topics, and offering their reasons for forming their opinions on those topics, but that's not quite the same as believing that any of us are in a sufficiently knowledgeable position to argue anything above or beyond "this is my opinion, and this is why I hold that opinion".

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 07:44 AM

Jim, prejudice seems to get targeted at communities and people who are misunderstood or mysterious and I bet if little green aliens did land here it wouldn't be long before someone came up with something derrogatory or nasty to cause friction.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 07:01 AM

Indeed Lively.
There could never be concrete conclusions.
It is a hypothesis, but one put forward independently by a number of people with knowledge of the culture, and from within that culture.
No alternative has yet been offered.
It is worthy of consideration.
(Unless you do not believe that anything needs explaining!)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 06:45 AM

"Lively's latest link says the same."

To be specific, this is what Joan Smith has to say in conclusion to her piece in the Independent:

"What these trials have exposed is a particularly nasty development in the commercial sex industry. Dozens of foreign sex-traffickers are serving sentences in British prisons for crimes against women from Eastern Europe, South-east Asia and Africa, and the spotlight on their crimes has diverted attention from internal traffickers. Now their activities have been exposed and the common factor is a misogyny that dehumanises women and very young girls.
Despite the protestations yesterday of Keith Vaz, chair of the home affairs select committee, cultural factors are hugely significant in such cases. Gender inequality facilitates abuse and that's what we need to focus on, not the irrelevant matter of race."

Of course it's worth making it clear that this is just one opinion piece by one feminist journalist, and as such it doesn't represent a sufficiently rigorous analysis of the subject matter, to be used in the defense of any concrete conclusions concerning the potential causes of this phenomenon.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 05:10 AM

Lox,
Even in those northern counties, BPs are a minority.
Unless they are a minority in an offending group, they are over-represented.
Wilmer' hundreds of cases, all involving BPs, are sufficient alone to show an over-representation.
I regard that as proof, not just strong evidence.
You would have to claim she was lying.

Lox, before all this I knew nothing of BP culture.
I read that Straw, Cryer, Shafiq, Ahmed and Allibhai-Brown all blame the culture for the over-representation.
Lively's latest link says the same.
Culture not race.
Why should that not be considered in this discussion?
What did I do wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 04:59 AM

No Keith - you really must do something abpout that alzheimers.

You didn't "just report it".

You waded in to support a racist hypothesis and you tthen added to that hypothesis by saying that Pakistanis are culturally predisposed to rape and only manage to avoid raping people through a great effort of will.

That isn't reporting, that is taking sides and statiing a subjective position.

Your later non evidentially supported claims aboout "hundreds" of girls is all merely an attempt to establish a solid foundation for your premise.

Unfortunately, all you have done is provide the opinions of people who agree with you, and some expert testimony that flatly contradicts you.

The only account from someone with experience provides no information about over or under representation and contains no information about pakistani culture.

Its all there in the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 11 - 12:03 AM

Lox, Wilmer said that the gangs were all BPs.
She said that in january 2011 and was widely reported, including by The Guardian.
How am I responsible?

Don I keep saying it because it is the truth.
It has not changed.

That explanation was proposed by national figures, and people who are themselves BPs (Mohamed Shafiq) and among those some world famous anti racists. (Jasmin Allibhai-Brown and Lord Ahmed. Look them up.)

They were reported by the entire national media, but when I reported it here, I was excoriated as the devil incarnate for doing it.

It was blatant and groundless character assassination.
Shame on those who joined in with it.
Shame on those who read it and said nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 06:29 PM

How Keith Argues:

_____________________________________________________________


Here is evidence that the man in the moon is real.

Neil Armstrong says:

"Here men from the planet Earth first set foot upon the Moon. July 1969 AD. We came in peace for all mankind."

If you disagree that this evidence proves my case, then it follows that you accuse him of LYING.

_____________________________________________________________


It doesn't concern Keith that the bit in quotes never addresses the matter of the Man in the Mooon at all - It has no bearing.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 06:18 PM

Well done Keith,

You managed to cut and paste what Wilmer said.

I wonder if one day you will take the time to read it.

None of the stuff you have posted supports your hypothesis.

She realized after a while that these were not isolated cases (as you might expect if it were a cutlural problem, with Pakistani individuals succumbing to temptation as you claim)

No she states that they were organized pimping gangs, who were similar in nature to international trafficking gangs.

(yes we've been here before)

So not different in any way to gangs from other nationalities, but similar to international gangs.


The only person lying is Keith - he is lying about what the evidence is - let alone what can be deduced from it.

Still nothing to support your hypothesis keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 06:05 PM

PS my apologies for impotent moments of "Exeunt token grolie"
However, I get the impression that more than a couple of us have been subject to such fits of the vapours on this thread..

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 05:49 PM

""I said I had been convinced because of the stature of those people, and because no other explanation had emerged.""

Every time you are asked a question which you can't, or don't want to answer, you try to offload your oft repeated theories onto your "sources" so-called, all of whom have actually remained well short of reaching the same conclusion.

Answer the question! How do you justify a conclusion about a culture, based solely on cherry picking a minority of that culture, and ignoring the majority, which destroys your theory?

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 05:30 PM

An alternative view which in part echoes the opinion of "Emma" regards the possible role of culturally and religiously informed misogyny:

Independent on Sunday: Gender inequality, not race, fosters abuse

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 05:16 PM

Don,
"Yet you feel justified in libelling the whole British Pakistani culture by your insistence that their culture predisposes them to Paedophilia a and Sex Trafficking."

No I do not.
I just reported what others had proposed.
I said I had been convinced because of the stature of those people, and because no other explanation had emerged.
I will consider any alternative with an open mind.
Why does the explanation matter if you think there is nothing to explain?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 04:05 PM

"I apologise if I have overstated my case,"

S'OK Jim, I understand the anger behind it. It is true to say that racism is an ongoing problem in our culture. I would go so far as to say that racism is endemic in our culture, and even moreso, that casual racism is particularly commonplace in white working-class Britain, where a general undercurrent of racism is the norm.. Oopsy daisy, did I just do some racial profiling there? I think so, but somehow I doubt my friends (as I consider them, being a lefty myself) in the political left would expend much energy contending my opinion on that matter, despite the fact that I'm not a psychologist.

In any event, personally, and particularly in instances such as this where there are strong indications (strong enough for me, though that might make me a racist) of a distinct racial component in a particular pattern of criminal activity, I find any position which focuses it's efforts in setting itself against racism, perversely guilty of an equivalent prejudice. One which I feel, disregards the victims of such crime, in it's focus on a different perceived ideological enemy to the actual perpetrators of the crimes under discussion.

I guess I'm one of those Grolies of limited intelligence who care more about feely touchy nonsense than matters of Gradgrind style hard fact. This does not mean that I support the half dozen or so completely unsupported *opinions* cited by Keith as evidence for a hypothis that "in some magic way marrying ones cousin turns one into a compulsive nonce" (as you may have noticed, I thought the irony of one far right-wing blogger's summary dismissal of such a hypothesis, sufficiently amusing to post it here). However, as a supporter of freedom of speech, I feel it's his right to offer such a point of view, without discussion around it being (in my view) effectively suppressed through intimidating tactics of abuse.

In fact I think it's imperative if the far-right are not to gain far more propaganda victories out of this phenomena, than they already have.

Best wishes and adieu, yours of the limited intelligence

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 03:40 PM

"My final words. Good health Jim."
And my final words and likewise - good health B.
I have appealed a number of times that this thread be closed, to the accompaniment of Keith's sneers that we had "run out of ideas".
He persisted.
I was relieved when it disappeared off the rader.
He revived it and has continued to milk this particular cow as dry as the Sahara.
A personal word.
Following an incident in this town on St Patrick's Day we may or may not have just escaped the dire results of yet another "Let's get rid of all the 'nackers' (Traveller equivalent of 'niggers')" campaign. If this were to happen it will affect a number of people we know and like, including a considerable number of young children.
The townspeople have had their meeting (we were away) and we are at present waiting for the other shoe to hit the floor to learn the outcome.
The last time this happened here, a Traveller family burned out by a caravan fire, was driven out of a temporarily allocated house by townspeople chanting "Travellers out, residents in". The crunch came when one of the family was informed that if they insisted on hanging around they would soon be needing the assistance of the Fire Department again. The family spent their Christmas in a borrowed holiday touring caravan and makeshift tents on the Atlantic seafront; the youngest celebrated her first birthday in those surroundings.
For some people these little tete-a-tetes are more than after-dinner discussions where we express our disapproval by throwing our napkins across the table.
I can't remember offhand how much shorter the relative life-spans are between Taveller and buffer (settled person), but it is considerable in favour of the latter - a direct result of stereotyping and bigotry.
I apologise if I have overstated my case, but I can't promise it won't happen again.
Best to you all (or most of you)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 03:04 PM

""There are mountains of evidence that BPs are the overwhelming majority of offenders.""

In a moderate sized area centred on South Yorks, Derbyshire and the Midlands, and involving less than half the total number of British Pakistanis.

The remainder of that ethnic group show no such tendencies, particularly the 29 percent of the total number who live in Southern towns and cities.

Yet you feel justified in libelling the whole British Pakistani culture by your insistence that their culture predisposes them to Paedophilia a and Sex Trafficking.

You simply cannot justify that conclusion, unless you ignore more than half of all British Pakistanis.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM

I'm outta here, too, pretty much for the reasons stated by Backwoodsman-and I mean no offense to ANYone.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 02:35 PM

There has been much talk of differing opinions.
I have not been expressing opinions.
The over-representation is a matter of fact.
When that was denied, I supplied evidence for it, not opinions.

Had there been convincing evidence against, as a rational person I would have accepted it, but there was none.

Perhaps I should have let it go, but why can't it be discussed without abuse?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 02:08 PM

I understand your hatred of racism Jim, I support you in that and I respect you for standing against it. But this wasn't a discussion, there was no attempt to listen, to understand or reconcile, it was just a shit-slinging contest, and the main contributors have not covered themselves in glory, just the faecal matter that they've tried to smear on their opponents.

And that's borne out by the marked absence of other posters - who in their right mind would want to join any thread where expression of an opinion that differs from that of a small minority lays one open to some of the foul things that have been written on here (many by people who claim to be "better" than that)?

An argument against abuse cannot be won by abuse.

My final words. Good health Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 11 - 12:51 PM

Sorry Backwoodsman - can't think of any other way to respond to racicism - not when it comes in this size and form.
As I said, if it had happened anywhere else other than the internet, the culprit/s would be facing incitement to race hatred charges.
You can decide for yourself who and who has not overstated their case, but racism is a subject I refuse to be neutral about.
I'm gone!
Jim Carroll