BS: Muslim prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:54 AM

Some of the nastiest people on the planet were incredibly well educated. Or incredibly misquoted or misreported.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:50 AM

This is from BBC site about Ahmed.

I would like to be told who knows more about British Pakistanis, working class or not, than he does.

Not you anyway Lox.
What else can you do but walk?

The peer also openly clashed with his party's leadership in October 2006 when he openly criticised the way British Muslims were treated.

He told the BBC there was "a constant theme of demonisation of the Muslim community" and that politicians were jumping on a bandwagon by "having a go" at Muslims.

He said people were exploiting the fact that some within the Muslim community threatened national security.

Property developer

As a high-profile leader of the Muslim community, Lord Ahmed has played a role in easing tensions after the London bombings in July 2005 and the 9/11 attacks on the US in 2001.

Three months after 9/11 he hit the headlines after claiming the government had tapped his phone because of his opposition to the war in Afghanistan.

It was a claim the government denied.

Lord Ahmed, 51, was born in Pakistan but has lived in Rotherham, in South Yorkshire, since his childhood.

He studied public administration at Sheffield Hallam University and joined the Labour Party at the age of 18.

Having distinguished himself as a proactive local councillor, he founded the British Muslim Councillors' Forum in 1992 and became a Justice of the Peace in the same year.

He was appointed to the House of Lords in 1998 as Baron Ahmed of Rotherham after several years as chairman of the South Yorkshire Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:29 AM

Actually Smedley, and Keith, I would not care to explain any more testimony provided.

When Keith has found proof of his hypothesis that sex crimes committed by Pakistani men are the result of a diffenert motivation to sex crimes committed by any other demographic, he may draw my attention to it by starting a thread on thiat subject.

Until then, there is no reason why I should bother trawling along on this thread ad infinitum.

Lord Ahmed doesn't speak for inner city Pakistanis any more than Gaddafi does.

He may be Moslem, but that does not make him any more representative of Workig Class Moslems than Nick Clegg is of working class whites.

I wish you luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:26 AM

I do not know how else to respond when Lox says there is no issue, and a distict BP culture does not exist.

Who do I have to put up before you will open your minds and discuss reality?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:19 AM

Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Muslim youth group the Ramadan Foundation said 53 out of the last 65 convictions for grooming had involved British Pakistanis.

"The reality is that there is an issue," he said. "There is a perception that these white girls have lesser morals and lesser values than women from Pakistani heritage.

Perhaps you could get your fellow to explain to us why he thinks (as he apparently does) that Pakistani girls have such high moral values whilst Pakistani boys, on the other hand, go around like tomcats shagging every underage white girl in sight. Odd, that. Either that or it's yet another load of old bollix, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Smedley
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:17 AM

The 'that' referred to was Keith's latest fistful of bouquets, to clear up any confusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Smedley
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:15 AM

Anyone care to guess how long it'll take Lox to post four replies to that ? Then another couple from Keith..... Round and round we go.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:13 AM

'They are forced into marriages and they are not happy. They are married to girls from overseas who they don't have anything in common with, and they have children and a family.

'But they are looking for fun in their sexual activities and seek out vulnerable girls.'

He said Asian men resort to abusing young white girls because they do not want meaningful relationships with adult white women.
'An adult woman – if you are having an affair – would want your time, money and for you to break up your marriage,' the peer added....

'...This didn't happen in my or my father's generation.

What's with all the "they" do you suppose, Keith? Does he mean "these people?" All of 'em? Some of 'em? A few of 'em? And did he say anywhere why it didn't happen in his dad's generation? Have testosterone levels gone up? And what's with the adult woman bit? That applies to anyone contemplating an affair, n'est-ce pas? I think you need to find better allies than your peer, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 09:03 AM

Atma Singh, from the Sikh Community Action Network, said: "Well done to Jack Straw for being 100 per cent honest and saying what many people already know – that there are pockets of youngsters in the Pakistani Muslim community who treat girls from other communities as sexual objects."

Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Muslim youth group the Ramadan Foundation said 53 out of the last 65 convictions for grooming had involved British Pakistanis.

"The reality is that there is an issue," he said. "There is a perception that these white girls have lesser morals and lesser values than women from Pakistani heritage.

"It's abhorrent and there needs to be debate."

However, he criticised Mr Straw for only raising the issue once he had left government, despite being warned about the problem two and a half years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 08:54 AM

A prominent British Pakistani has offered an alternative theory to that of Straw and Cryer.
'They are forced into marriages and they are not happy. They are married to girls from overseas who they don't have anything in common with, and they have children and a family.

'But they are looking for fun in their sexual activities and seek out vulnerable girls.'

He said Asian men resort to abusing young white girls because they do not want meaningful relationships with adult white women.
'An adult woman – if you are having an affair – would want your time, money and for you to break up your marriage,' the peer added.

His comments come weeks after former Foreign Secretary Jack Straw provoked national outrage by saying that some Pakistani men look at white girls as 'easy meat' for sexual abuse.

Labour peer Lord Ahmed said: 'I get a lot of criticism from Asian people who ask, "How can you say this about Asian men?" But they must wake up and realise there is a problem.

'I am deeply worried about this as it has happened in my own backyard, and in Rochdale and Bradford.

'This didn't happen in my or my father's generation. This is happening among young Asians. While I respect individual choice, I think the community needs to look at marriages in the UK rather than cousin marriages or economic marriages from abroad.'

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 06:15 AM

So far in this thread we have referred to sex crimes and trafficking against young women and underage girls committed by Romanians, Russians, Americans and British Pakistanis.

Yet here we are arguing about whether one group has a different motivation berrought on by the "regime" imposed on them by their culture.


Why aren't you looking for the common denominator Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 06:11 AM

.

STOP PRESS

80 American Nationals arrested by CIA in south east Asia for the rape of underage girls!


The full story


I wonder if these criminals were driven to their crimes by a repressive cultural regime?

.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 05:59 AM

Keith,

Pakistanis are only overrepresented in Pakistani Gangs.

They are not overrepresented in sex trafficking, abduction or paedophilia.

As for what I could have said, my answer is NO I don't agree.


My position is merely "The culture is not homogeneous, and it is changing" with no added bits for your benefit.

In addition, (please pay attention to this point for a change) the context of the discussion is "moslem Prejudice" and the reason for the mention of these crimes is within that context.

The hypothesis being debated is that Pakistani/Moslem culture is to blame for the actions of an organized crime gang.

Your 'investigation' remains a subsection of that argument and as such needs to be treated with caution and any generalizations drawn from it should be confronted and clarified as they do not constitute support for that hypothesis.

The best that can be said about your generalization is that it is interestiing, but too subject to reasonable doubt to cast any light on the issue of organized trafficking of underage girls.

I'm just staying on topic, and in the light of the topic, your posts serve as apologist.


MtheGM on the other hand seems to have begun contributing to this thread for one purpose only and it clearly has nothing to do with any of the subjects being discussed. What a pathetic excuse for a man. I bet he smells funny too.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 04:29 AM

What difference does it make what us old farts assert. unless the old fart in question is Rupert Murdoch.

some people think one thing. some another. no point in scratching each others eyes out.

I have very eccentric views about folk music. I know what i think, but mudcat has taught me a lesson - albeit a painful one. Its no use arguing for the views that sustain you. Just let them breasthe at the back of your mind.

Some arseholes have gone to war about how many angels can dance on a pinhead. Luckily I don't have a standing army to assert that gerry Lockran played folk music.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:21 AM

Good sense doesn't prevail, does it though, Al, by asserting that facts are not facts, or might not be facts, or even if they are facts they can be wished away, as that pompous & foul-mouthed & coprophiliac booby Lox is wasting all our time by persisting in doing?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:00 PM

I'm not sure I want to think about it. Theres not much you can do about it.

I think that basically we all have an interest in our society functioning without too much confrontation and nastiness. And hopefully good sense will prevail in seeing that the other stuff doesn't get the upper hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 04:55 PM

Steve, it does not explain why they are so over represented in this, but no other crime.
It is interesting.
It is also interesting how much so many people do not want to think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 04:36 PM

Only a tiny minority are ever involved in this crime but, as you acknowledge, they are over represented and that requires an explanation.

The explanation lies subtly buried in your question, Keith, in the two little words "tiny minority."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 03:15 PM

Lox,
Four days ago I said to you

"I admit to making a generalistion about B.P. culture.
I said that girls are generally discouraged from engaging in courtship.
Are you saying that is false?"

You could have spared us dozens of acrimonious posts if you had just said something like,

"The culture is not homogeneous, and it is changing, but that is broadly correct."

Why do you find it so hard?
We could have moved on.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 02:57 PM

'In fact the person best placed to know, the policeman in charge of the enquiry, holds a directly opposite view'

So cynical - you know damn well no public official could express any such a view, whatever the facts. This matter was brought to public attention by the daily Telegraph, which is slightly to the political right of Mussolini on many matters, but its not gutter press - whatever its many failings.

Its a matter of judgement, the Telegraph may not have opened the batting if suspicion had fallen on a group of tory MP's - but I doubt if they would have proceeded if the worries had been groundless - like say the Mail would.

Temper your arguments with a bit of savvy about the state of Great Britain, as grown ups know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 02:48 PM

Keith,

"It can still be informative to describe aspects of a culture, and British Pakistanis are a very culturally distinct group."

Indeed, the study of culture can be very interesting and informative, not to mention useful in learning to understand culture.

But it is important for you to be sure you have explored the subject properly and learned to understand it fully before you start quoting academic papers that you haven't fully taken the time to digest as evidence to support hypotheses concerning the causes of crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 01:16 PM

=== MtheGM as usual dribbles into his bib with glee after regurgitating the same dull quip as usual, I just hope that with this level of over excitement his colostomy bag is properly attached. ===

Only just come across this of yours of a couple of days ago. Charming as ever, Lox; but I confess self somewhat puzzled by it: have never needed one, & tho oldish, still don't ~~ a bit of prostate trouble necessitated a little catheterisation a year or two back, but other functions OK, glad to report. {Too much info? Ah, well, who raised the subject?} Not quite sure what point you were intending to make. Perhaps you would care to explain yourself?

Regards

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 12:53 PM

"bury" it? Please.

Question is: Is it there or is it not?

Answer in the affirmative.

G'bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 11:15 AM

As soon as anyone puts up a racist or bigoted statement I have made Greg, I am gone.
Just don't bury it in acres of text.
Put the very worst one up all on its own for all to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 10:58 AM

By your own admission, time for ya to go & don't let the door hit youin the arse on the way out.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 10:53 AM

Don, it is not just me who does not bother with screen-fulls of text.
No one does.
That is why I never do it.

To reply to everything in your post would require an even longer one.

It is already accepted by everyone that the culprits (in these particular crimes only) were overwhelmingly from the Pakistani community.
Lox commented, "All you're doing is showing us again that the gangs in this case are predominantly made up of Pakistanis."

We had gone beyond that to explore possible explanations.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:03 AM

""If you want a response to all that other stuff, one at a time please.

And yes, find anything by me that is racist and I walk.""

How convenient!

We read through your longest posts and respond to them, but you pick and choose, and ignore what you either can't, or don't want to answer.

Coincidental I'm sure, but the post you want to ignore is the one in which your comments as documented do indeed have overtly racist overtones.

In nine posts you used the word "Pakistani" once, the word "Islam" once and the word "Muslim" six times, every time in direct connection with words such as "grooming", "crime", "terrorism", and in opposition to the words "white" and "Christian".

If you are, as you claim, a man of tolerance and integrity, read that post and respond, as I have no intention of re-posting it one question at a time.

It was posted in its current form in direct response to your claim never to have stated that this problem was a Muslim problem, or the responsibility of Islam.

(""From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 06:43 AM

Don, on 24th January I said about this issue "It is nothing to do with Islam. "
I do not "see the problem as a Muslim one,"
I have always said specifically that it is not."")

That claim now lacks any vestige of credibility in the face of comments fom you, such as: ""This particular crime, dubbed street grooming, is the domain of male muslim gangs according to the people in a position to know."", people whom you do not see fit to identify, and comment for which you provide no source, credible or otherwise.

In fact the person best placed to know, the policeman in charge of the enquiry, holds a directly opposite view, as I quoted in that long post you couldn't be bothered to read.

If you are unable or unwilling to read it and respond, then members will be entitled to draw their own conclusions as to your agenda.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:00 AM

The stilted English is because it is source material produced by a German university.
No culture is exactly homogeneous.
That hardly needs stating.
It can still be informative to describe aspects of a culture, and British Pakistanis are a very culturally distinct group.

We are all used to discussing the fact that there are two culturally distinct groups within the racially homogeneous population of Northern Ireland.
Alan has alluded to aspects of working class culture, sometimes derogatorily referred to as chav culture, within the white British community.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:20 AM

Would you say that this is a fair description?

Parents try to marry their daughters at the earliest age possible while men marry much later in life. The reason for this is to prevent the bride from losing her respectability through personal encounters with other men. Whilst the man marries much later in life as he is responsible for providing for his wife and future children. For most Pakistani men it takes time before they are economically established for this role. This of course means the bride will marry a man considerably older than herself, an age difference of ten years is not uncommon.
Parents start saving towards the cost of the wedding from the birth of their child as marriage is expensive. The most common marriage arrangement is between first cousins. If a first cousin of suitable age is not found then a second or third cousin will do. Marriages between unrelated couples are uncommon.

Though Pakistanis have immigrated in groups an entire family including extended relations is not always present in the UK. In such cases the marriage partner will be in Pakistan. Where one partner is in Pakistan problems are often encountered if the partner is male. Experience suggests UK immigration officials are usually quite happy to grant visas for brides from Pakistan to enter the country, however men from Pakistan usually face a long and ardous struggle to gain entry to the UK

Whether the prospective partners are allowed to see each other prior to the wedding depends on the families concerned. If one partner lives in Pakistan a photo may be all that is provided. when partners are allowed to meet, the meeting will take place amongst the two families who will be present at all times. It is not unusual for the couple to have no direct contact prior to the wedding.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 07:14 AM

Keith,

I don't like the words "right" and "wrong".

As you have asked though, I will do my best to answer and will explain my answer, which I have thought about carefully and honestly.

Yes it is wrong to state those things as "information"

It is right to refer to those things as subject matter to be discussed.


I would see those comments as the opening comment in an investigation rather than as a piece of information.

i.e.

British Pakistanis generally do not approve of girls having relationships with males and marriages are very often arranged at a young age - Discuss.

A conclusion of such an investigation would without any doubt include essential qualifications without which the integrity of the conclusion would be in doubt.

To leave those kind of qualifications out would be to CHANGE the conclusion.

As purported pieces of simplified information, they are potentially misleading as they oversimplify the whole picture to the point that they actually create an misleading ad therefore inaccurate picture.

If a person with no experience of Moslems were to ask what they were like and got that answer, they would have a distorted image.

Another equally selective and misleading way of describing the same thing would be to say, in isolation, that British Pakistani Girls are spending more and more time with boys these days, rebelling against their parents, smoking fags etc, which, without knowledge of how much they are rebelling and without a context, again could give a misleading impression of a demographic going wild.

The RIGHT way to present the truth is the way that you would be expected to tell it in court - the WHOLE truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 06:04 AM

No such thing as cultural differences?
What do sociologists and anthropologists do with themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 05:11 AM

See the Jeremy Kyle show - and die of shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 05:09 AM

I THINK WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO SAY KEITH, IS THAT THERE IS NO GENERALITY ABOUT ASIAN FAMILIES. THERES ALL KINDS OF STUFF GOING ON - JUST AS THERE IS WITH ENGLISH FOLK.

WE DON'T ALL HAVE TATTOOS, BODY PIERCINGS, TAKE HEROIN, HAVE DRINK PROBLEMS AND KEEP VICIOUS DOGS. ALTHOUGH OBSERVATION ATTESTS THST A LARGE NUMBER OF US DO.

SORRY ABOUT THE CAPITALS LOCK.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 03:59 AM

Lox, you have avoided a question several times now.
A straight answer, either way, would end our discussion for me.

Is it wrong to say that British Pakistanis generally do not approve of girls having relationships with males?
Or that marriages are very often arranged at a young age?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 03:50 PM

Both?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 03:28 PM

Words!!!!

No time for all that wordiness, I am now going to turn on the TV and watch Little Mosque on the Prairie on CBC, a delightful, humourous, down to earth show about a small prairie town where Muslims and Christians talk to each other - on the street, in the coffee shop, in the building they share for their religious services. Life as it could be in the real world.

It is now shown in 80 countries - but not the USA where people, or is it the government, refuse to give up their irrational prejudices.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 01:56 PM

"I don't know if anyone else can confirm this, but I think theres a definite conflict within the Asian community."

If anything Alan, I would suggest that to assume there was a homogenous view would be utterly absurd.

I encountered different views of Islam, Shia, Sunni, different opinions within Sunni, politics, society, labour, tory, lib dem, Manchester United, Leicester City, Vegetarian, Meat eating, Artistic, Entrepreeurial, dissillusioned, optimistic, racist, enlightened, etc etc etc ...

Conflict and disagreement that crosses categories - so those who agree on one issue disagree on another - those who support each other on one matter, suppport apparent rivals on another ...

... Just like all communities.

This is why the idea that "community leaders" can influence the "community" (like the arabs in the film "the jewel of the nile" all standing behind their leader) is such a load of tosh.

The alleged "community leaders" are often nothing of the sort, like Mr Khan in the video I posted above, are neither elected nor do they have the across the board support as spokespeople that they claim they have. I have heard a prominent Pakistani woman politician, whose name I have sadly forgotten, describe them as "self styled community leaders".

The idea that such men could have prevented organized trafficking gangs from abducting underage girls is beyond ludicrous and depends on a very idealized caricature of how these communities look and how they are "led".

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 01:21 PM

I don't know if anyone else can confirm this, but I think theres a definite conflict within the Asian community.

You see, you get very poor families - sometimes from villages in the subcontinent, and they bring the petty values of the village and keep them alive as best they can in England.

Then again you get more middle class, aspirational types and they adopt and adapt - just do their damndest to compete - realising they have their work cut out with that - never mind being 'in the tradition' - leave that to english folksinger!

That's when you'd hear comments like - that girl dresses like a slag in tight jeans - she knows a muslim girl shouldn't dress like that.

Of course the way to hell is paved with generalisations. I don't know, but I saw and heard enough to make me uneasy.

Islam isn't to blame, but its there in the mixture somwhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 12:44 PM

Alan, I'm not pretending that problems don't exist, but there is a wide gulf between that and concluding that Islam is to blame for these crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 12:42 PM

I think they are massive simplifications of a more complex issue with numerous observable levels.

I think in Britain these things are becoming less and less prevalent.

In the papers we read about young Moslem Women changing "cultural norms" and speaking out against the old ways - in fact, we have been reading about his stuff for at least a decade.

In addition, when teenage and young adult females clad in full Hijab try to flirt with you, you learn pretty quickly just how "repressed" they are.

I knew several young men and teenage boys with young Moslem girlfriends where I lived. It was common and the "community" did nothing to repress their relationships.

It was a typical poor Ghetto of any town. Kids were disillusioned by the opportunity's they had, and they smoked fags in the street and they smoked Pot behind my house as mine was the last street in the row.

The lads were tough talking street kids - who went to mosque etc - I was friendly with them, male and female.

As I said, it was less 13th century than it was 1955 - except that while the parents were 1955, the kids were very 2005.

There were of course varying degrees of freedom amongst women, and there were some conservative families, and some less conservative families.

The toughest talking wildest lads did not come from families where dad had a beard and mum wore a bhurka, but from families where Dad was an alcoholic who lived somewhere else now that mum had succesfully got an injunction out against him.

So if its causes of crime you want, you can see a strong common denominator there shared with criminals from other racial and religious backgrounds.

And that common denominator is the usual combination of poverty, broken home, living in a ghetto with no voice and no knowledge of how to seek your fortune and no hope -> what difference does it make if I join a gang -> at least i won't be a sad twat like my dad, or like miggins over there who works in McDonalds -> Nope - I'm gonna make some money and be somebody, with a flash car etc etc ... a hustler - a high roller - a pimp - just like in the songs.

You want to blame culture, blame our corporate propaganda machine that sells stereotypes and lifestyles by the pound - this is the girl you need - these are the clothes you need ... etc

And even all that hardly constitutes a Beginning - let alone a conclusion.

As long as Mysoginy sells there will be mysoginysts - though I can't guarantee that I'll be able to spell it properly.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 12:31 PM

Fair enough Lox. I don't like racist jokes and racist talk, and people getting a raw deal because of prejudice annoys and upsets me - as i hope it does all decent folk.

having said that I do feel unease, when i think of the asian kids I used to meet as a temp/supply teacher in Derby. Nice kids for the main part, some of them living in the red light areas of the city. All i will say is that the strictures of the preached Muslim dress code for girls, alongside the worldliness of their surroundings made it difficult for them to get a balanced view of things. I used to have to check my tongue, or i would have very soon found myself in trouble for saying stuff confrontational to their religion. And that would have helped no one.

By all means confront Keith, but if you don't feel that measure of unease - somehow you've got it wrong. Pretending that problems don't exist, and that there isn't grounds for concern - well its just being unobservant.

Most of us can rub along nicely - but some people are getting the wrong messages about our divergent cultures. It needs keeping an eye on and occasionally putting right.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 11:58 AM

Thanks Lox.


Do you regard is as unsubstantiated and slanderous to say that British Pakistanis generally do not approve of girls having relationships with males?
Or that marriages are very often arranged at a young age?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 11:34 AM

I wouldn't want you to walk as for me, as I have already stated, it is not the person but the idea that needs confronting.

This world is built on ideas - money - society - law etc - all are abstract ideas that only exist because enough of us agree that they do.

Some ideas are part of the solution, and others are part of the problem.

Some will take us forwards. whilst others will take us back to the stone age.


Ideas based on unsubstantiated and slanderous generalizations about ethnic or religious groups serve no useful purpose and their propagation will condemn us to a dark future.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 09:24 AM

Don.
I acknowledged that Muslims are under represented in all other non terrorist crimes.
That includes other sex crimes.

If you want a response to all that other stuff, one at a time please.

And yes, find anything by me that is racist and I walk.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 09:10 AM

""Don, on 24th January I said about this issue "It is nothing to do with Islam. "
I do not "see the problem as a Muslim one,"
I have always said specifically that it is not.""


Since you enjoy flinging around comments about the rest of us misrepresenting your attitudes, the following might be of interest:

You also made other comments Keith.

21st Jan ""Christians more than any other faith group are being persecuted and killed for their religion, by muslims, in places like Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia, Philipines.
There is also the treatment of individuals who choose to leave Islam.

Followed by a long list of "Muslim" atrocities in the next post.

Then:

21st Jan   ""I know from personal experience that extremism as a mind-set is spreading throughout the Muslim world.""

21st Jan   You also cited statements by Nazir Ali in support of your arguments. Of course he is a lapsed Muslim who has converted to Roman Catholicism. So, no possible biased agenda there then.

21st Jan   ""OK, but tell us why we should dismiss him and listen to you.""   

See above.

23rd Jan   ""Girls from respectable families have given their stories of being enticed away from shopping malls in daylight.
Not all white either.
Just not muslim.
They are off limits to young muslim men.""

24th Jan   ""She was an MP for an area with a large Pakistani community, and her vote largely came from that community.
A respected and knowledgeable authority on this issue.""

An authority who stated that this is almost exclusively an Asian problem. I'm with Lox….What planet is she living on? Of course, as an ex MP she is no longer swayed by the need for their votes.

At least Jack Straw had the good grace to remark that sex crimes in general were disproportionately a "White" problem, a point which you chose to ignore.

You also chose to ignore the Police Inspector (who one might suspect is more of an authority on crime than Ann Cryer), when he said "What no-one is saying is that the Pakistani community is responsible for the majority of sex crimes: This is just an element of sex crimes in general.

This is a specific problem within a group of people in a minority community."

24th Jan   ""For many, the outrage becomes a shrug when the perpetrators are a minority of Muslims and the victims white.""

This is an example of how you debate without accusations or attacks on the integrity of opponents........I see.

24th Jan   You quoted: FORMER Detective Superintendent Mick Gradwell, who was East Lancashire's top detective when he retired from the force last year, tells why he agrees with Jack Straw's controversial comments on sex grooming.

"WHEN I came to Blackburn in the 1970s, one of my main issues was the gangs of Asian men outside the old nightclub on top of the shopping centre who were picking up drunk white girls, specifically to abuse them."

1.   His mind reading skills must have stood him in good stead as a detective, if he was able to read their intentions so accurately........Oh Puhlease!
2.   He doesn't mention that there were also large numbers of white lads with, possibly, the same intentions. I'll bet a packet that there were.

I have little trouble divining what was on his mind when he said that.

24th Jan   ""This particular crime, dubbed street grooming, is the domain of male muslim gangs according to the people in a position to know.""

The wildest generalisation yet!

25th Jan   Lox said: "You argue that the Moslem Pakistani community are responsible for the actions of organized criminals."

You replied: ""No, I do not.""

See the above post

Also, you agree with Ann Cryer, when that was the whole tenor of her speech.

28th Jan   ""No one should dismiss informed opinion.
Cryer and Straw are well informed.
I still think the suggestion is a reasonable one.
Why don't you?""

Yet you ignored a most important point in Jack Straw's comment, both when he said it, and again when I pointed it out to you.

28th Jan I posted: "There are wall to wall available girls in every town centre, and the idea that Muslim lads haven't noticed that is frankly laughable"

Your response:   ""Er....,
quite!""

And another point slides effortlessly over the head. Willing girls kind of make rape unnecessary my friend, and it seldom makes sense to take the line of most resistance, or do you also believe that Muslim boys are stupid as well as criminal?

It's also worth remembering that just about every nightclub in the country has its coterie of girls who are there specifically to "pull", which suggests a different motive than that which you seek to ascribe to these criminals.

All in all you haven't managed to convince that one comment denying an Islamic cause outweighs the multitude of opposing posts.

Will you now be leaving this thread, or was that offer only open to Lox?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 07:57 AM

Lox, the suggestion is that it is certain aspects of BP culture.
Specifically that girls are not permitted relationships with males, and marriages are arranged from a young age.

Only a tiny minority are ever involved in this crime but, as you acknowledge, they are over represented and that requires an explanation.
What is yours?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 07:44 AM

But they aren't all white girls.

Oh, and although they may look underdressed to old dogs like us, they may or may not be available - that's up to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 07:41 AM

Uh huh ...

so "It is nothing to do with Islam."

but also,

"Under such a regime, some young men of any ethnic group would be tempted to go and get sex from where they can."


I wonder what cultural regime he could possibly be referring to ...

... its either a regime imposed by Pakistani culture or Islamic culture.


So whats to blame? Islam or the fact that they are Pakistani?

If it isn't Islam, then it must be Pakistani culture.


Keith, is Pakistani culture responsible for these crimes?


No of course it isnt.


But keith says "I still think the suggestion is a reasonable one."


If it isn't Pakistani culture, and it isn't Moslem culture, then there is no suggestion left to criticize i.e. there is no hypothesis left as there is no culture or regime left to hold responsible.


And it isn't British culture either. If anything, it is Male culture of degradation and objectification of women that is to blame.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 07:19 AM

"There are wall to wall available girls in every town centre, and the idea that Muslim lads haven't noticed that is frankly laughable"

Er....,
quite!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 06:43 AM

Don, on 24th January I said about this issue "It is nothing to do with Islam. "
I do not "see the problem as a Muslim one,"
I have always said specifically that it is not.

I did not "trawl through the internet until you find two "politically correct" commentators who agree "

Jack Straw was the main news item for a couple of days, and Cryer was being reported everywhere.
Did you miss it?

All your criticisms are completely false.