BS: Muslim prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 08:39 AM

That piece was before Straw broke the taboo.
He is a national figure who could endure the frenzied shit storm of abuse that would inevitably provoke.
She was not.
After Straw brought it into the open she told The Guardian that of the 400 families of victims who came to her, all the perpetrators were BPs.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 08:00 AM

Well, Keith, a very detailed article. Very distressing. I admire the woman. All it lacks is any mention whatsoever of Pakistanis.

Yes, achytony, "flash cars" is intended to give us slightly more than a factual account. It is an unsubtle attempt to paint a picture for us of well-off spivs, innit? It's more like what you'd read in The Sun than in The Guardian. I prefer my sources to stick to factual neutrality, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 07:29 AM

"And they are virulently anti-censorship too, Ake"
A statement you have no grounds whatever for making here - I couldn't point out one of these contributors ever having said they are opposed to censorship - can you? You appear to have caught a nasty dose of Keith-like stereotyping, possibly from standing to close to him.
Personally, I would be delighted if racism (and homophobia) could be censored out of existence - wouldn't you? Unfortnately it can't be, so it has to be exposed and opposed.
"doctrinaire lefty {sorry, 'liberal'} preconceptions"
And you were saying about "I don't do 'invective', Jim"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:27 AM

Link to Yorkshire Post Quote
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/features/hilary_s_drive_to_protect_young_people_1_2583232?action=logout

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:24 AM

"Don't you think that there is something deliberate about the use of the word "flash?"


How "vacuous" is that!   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:23 AM

Sorry, Hillary Wilmer not HB.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:19 AM

Helen B again, quoted by Yorkshire Post.
"At the beginning we worked on the assumption that girls were groomed by individual pimps, but later discovered widespread pimping networks, much like international people trafficking gangs. Shopping malls, games arcades, places around takeaways and parks are common meeting places.

"The girl (who's typically aged between 13 and 16, but can be only 11 or 12) may meet the man alone, or be introduced by a friend who already knows him. He is usually quite a lot older and good looking, well-dressed and may well have a fast car. He'll meet her regularly, shower her with gifts, give her drink and maybe also drugs, take her for rides, tell her how special she is. He may have sex with her, but not at first, and he will discourage her from telling her parents about him because "they wouldn't understand".

"At some point further down the line he will take her to a flat or down an alley and tell her that in return for all the things he has done for her, it's payback time and she has to do something for him. She will then probably be gang raped. She will be confused, weak, think she's in love with the pimp, but also feel ashamed and guilty. She goes home and takes it out on her family and also drops out of education."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:09 AM

I am no racist.
But it is easier to smear than to debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:08 AM

Desperation has set in Keith, they are starting to hallucinate.
I dont know how one enables "liberals" to open their minds, Orwell was so right!

Perhaps its a bit of a defense system, a ten foot concrete wall against reality?
The strange thing is that most of them are virulently anti religion, which performs much the same function.......Isnt life strange?

What a completely vacuous post, as indeed is the one by Michael following it. Heheh. With friends like these, Keith...well, you must be very embarrassed! Commiserations, old chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:05 AM

The perpetrators were described as using flash cars and gifts to entice young girls.
I had no reason to doubt those reports.

I doubt all reports until I know their exact source. Don't you think that there is something deliberate about the use of the word "flash?" It wouldn't have been The Guardian then... Assuming for a minute that these reports have some substance, the issue remains that you are sharply focussing your aim on a tiny minority of a tiny minority. There is a much bigger picture, of course, but racism can never look further than the bits that conveniently confirm their prejudices.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 04:52 AM

And they are virulently anti-censorship too, Ake ~~ until it comes to topics which outrage their doctrinaire lefty {sorry, 'liberal'} preconceptions.

Strange indeed.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 04:40 AM

Desperation has set in Keith, they are starting to hallucinate.
I dont know how one enables "liberals" to open their minds, Orwell was so right!

Perhaps its a bit of a defense system, a ten foot concrete wall against reality?
The strange thing is that most of them are virulently anti religion, which performs much the same function.......Isnt life strange?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 04:16 AM

They like to live in community goups, just like expat English people do .

The perpetrators were described as using flash cars and gifts to entice young girls.
I had no reason to doubt those reports.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 04:08 AM

Steve, how is it "demonisation" to make the commonplace observation,
"BPs tend to live in communities around Mosques, madrases, Halal suppliers, etc, and because they want to preserve their culture."?

The demonisation came in the next bit, the one about the fancy cars. This bit starts with weasel words and comes into the "these people" category, Look at it again. You don't build mosques, madrases and Halal shops then hope that Muslims will accumulate around them. It's just nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 03:40 AM

All the arguments I put up WERE in Guardian, Independent, BBC and indeed all the media.
Unlike you, I never distorted but quoted verbatim.

You are reduced again to smearing me.
There were no chemical weapons, just the smoke that all forces use including Irish.
It is a lie that I said anything unfriendly about the Irish people.
I took Sinn Fein's stance on the parades.
All you have is lies about my previous because you have no answers.

And, you have made a complete arse of yourself again.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 03:21 AM

"Is this as a crime carried out by the majority of the Pakistani population in Britain" why did you answer,"
Put it down to (though I'm sure that you won't) battle fatigue in your war of attrition - a misunderstanding on my part.
I won't be surprised if you milk this slip for all the capital you are able to get from it, in fact, I will be more than a little disappointed if you don't, such is the level at which you appear to operate.
My stance on your attacks on British Pakistanis remains as it was at the beginning, one of disgust and contempt.
"Is on street grooming by groups mainly a crime of BPs?"
No, of course it isn't; it is a crime committed within all groups in Britain, immigrant and indigenous; you are the only one claiming otherwise.
In order to back your claim you have deliberately distorted out of context a tiny handful of quotes from people working in unspecified areas of Britain to smear the British Pakistani population.
Virtually single handedly you have taken a thread that originated as an honest discussion on Muslim prejudice and turned it into a racist diatribe. You have recived almost no support for this, your remaining prop being of no surprise to me as he has in the past mounted similar attacks on homosexuals, describing their 'perversion' as being a major cause of paedophilia.
If your accusations had been made publicly to the extent and of the nature of those made here, say by a national newspaper, I have little doubt that those responsible would be facing prosecution under Britain's incitement to race hatred laws. As it is, they are made from the safety of an internet discussion forum, so you run no such risk - one of the 'benefits' of modern technology, apparently.
The distorted use of your sources would, I have no doubt, have incurred the wrath of those whose work you have used in your 'crusade' - one article specifically warns against the use you have put their opinions to. Another of your sources is a distinguished anti-racist whose work has earned her the honour af being targeted by the cream of Britain's journalism, The Daily Telegraph as 'the stupidest woman in Britain'. I'm sure she would be delighted to see her opinions being used as a stick to beat her own people!
I have to confess to being a little sceptical when Cobra suggested that you might be an ultra-right 'mole' encouraged to make contributions such as this; over this discussion some of that scepticism has dissipated.
Past encounters with you: your apoligist stance on the use of chemical weapons on civilians in Gaza, the occasion when the mask slipped regarding your opinions of the Irish people and your open support of violently abusive and aggressive sectarian demonstrations in Ireland, passing them off as 'harmless days out' - all have led me to an clear opinion of where you stand politically.
One thing you may be sure of; should we find ourselves engaged in discussion ever again, you will not have heard the last of "this is a crime carried out by the majority of the Pakistani population in Britain" or your claims that the British Pakistani culture is one of the causes of their grooming and raping children.
Have a good day,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 01:52 AM

Jim, if you really believed I meant,

"Is this as a crime carried out by the majority of the Pakistani population in Britain"    why did you answer,

"Yes where have I claimed it wasn't?" ???

That is SO racist Jim.
Please clarify what you thought I was asking, and give a straight answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 12:55 AM

"If you are claiming this as a crime carried out by the majority of the Pakistani population in Britain -"

Of course I am not.
I meant exactly the same as when I asked the same question 24hours earlier.

The question
"Is on street grooming by groups mainly a crime of BPs?"

This clearly means, are the perpetrators mostly BPs?

24 hours previous you gave the straight answer "yes"

Straight answer please Jim.
Is on street grooming by groups mainly a crime of BPs?

Steve, how is it "demonisation" to make the commonplace observation,
"BPs tend to live in communities around Mosques, madrases, Halal suppliers, etc, and because they want to preserve their culture."?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 06:05 PM

"Ghettoisation. BPs tend to live in communities around Mosques, madrasas, Halal suppliers, etc, and because they want to preserve their culture.
I do not think anyone is to blame for that.
It has been stated that these gang members are quite affluent, with their fancy cars, money, alcohol and drugs on tap."

Blatant demonisation. The next step is openly racist condemnation. And you are even resorting to weasel words now: "tend to live..." "It has been stated..." Shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 05:53 PM

"Is on street grooming by groups mainly a crime of BPs?"
If you are claiming this as a crime carried out by the majority of the Pakistani population in Britain - no, I certainly do not believe that, I believe that making such a claim is racist.
As you have consistently refused to qualify your 'mainly' I can only assume that you are referring to the Pakistani population as a whole, therefore I believe your statemant not only to be racist, but also cowardly as you are not prepared to stand behind your own claims - now which is it to be - 'mainly' in terms of unspecified districts, areas villages, towns, cities, Britain as a whole - answer please?
I believe it racist to attempt to identify one national or cultural group with a crime without documantary proof.
I believe it racist to claim without documentary proof that any cultural or national group is culturally prone to any particular crime.
If you are relating either of these claims to the British Pakistani population as a whole, then you are making racist statements - no empty rhetoric, no name calling if this is what you have said, you are a racist; show that you are not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:48 PM

"I would widen that to ....MOST controversial subjects!"

Eh! When did the left become so nervous and flaccid? Perhaps it had something to do with a diet of environmentally sourced sushi wraps? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:37 PM

I would widen that to ....MOST controversial subjects!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 03:54 PM

PS, with respect to the "furthering of bigotry and racism" point I made, does anyone really want to see this smug greasy face chuckling:

http://twitter.com/nickgriffinmep/statuses/22618299623804928

I would contend that this propaganda "victory" by the far-right, has been facilitated by a failure by the left to fully engage in open dialogue on this particular topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 03:35 PM

"these gang members are quite affluent,"

Affluent on the proceeds of criminal activity, of which pimping out young girs would appear to be one. However economic deprivation itself, is a key element in the formation of gang culture, and indeed much non gang-related crime, itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 03:28 PM

"we can only attempt to explain it if we take all relevant factors into account, and we are not doing that in this thread,"

Agreed, but I would contend that such discussions as this do not automatically *have* to descend into extreme polarisation of positions and they can perhaps attempt to "take in all relevant factors", or at least as many factors as we may be able to garner through amateur Googling - imperfect as such um 'research' may be.

If we can't have a civilly conducted, open discussion on a 'folk forum' of all places without descending into cat-calling (and I found it personally somewhat intimidating), what hope is there for reconciling the tensions present in our modern multicultural Britain?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 03:28 PM

OK Jim, straight answer please.
Is on street grooming by groups mainly a crime of BPs?

Steve,
"these young men are in the gangs they are in at least partly because of racism leading to ghettoisation and social deprivation"

Ghettoisation. BPs tend to live in communities around Mosques, madrasas, Halal suppliers, etc, and because they want to preserve their culture.
I do not think anyone is to blame for that.
It has been stated that these gang members are quite affluent, with their fancy cars, money, alcohol and drugs on tap.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 03:06 PM

As I put it earlier, if people prefer not to discuss it the problem of on-street grooming of underage girls by British Pakistani gangs in the North of England, then this particular organised crime can only continue. If people don't discuss it, this form of organised crime will continue and will not be successfully tackled.

I don't think for one second that anyone here thinks that any crime that comes to light shouldn't be robustly tackled. But we're not tackling crime on this thread - we're tussling with root causes, and we're coming up with wrong answers because we are doing what all good racists do, which is focussing on one particular ethnic group, singling out a tiny minority of that group and trying to extrapolate from their misdeeds towards a conclusion that there is an intrinsic propensity for such behaviour within that whole group. No matter that Keith et al. can't put a statistic on what qualifies as a propensity, etc., no consideration that these young men are in the gangs they are in at least partly because of racism leading to ghettoisation and social deprivation. I'm not trying to make excuses for bad behaviour, but we can only attempt to explain it if we take all relevant factors into account, and we are not doing that in this thread, some of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 03:06 PM

"Why does Jim think this is mainly a crime of BPs?"
You now appear to have moved on from prevarication to openly lying - no surprise; it comes with the territory.
I do hope your supporters have armed themselves with long enough spoons!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:59 PM

Certainly Steve, as I said,I did not seriously think that you would behave like that........ or the other lads you referred to.

But it was disingenuous of you to try to equate the two cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:51 PM

"This thread, hypocritically, has focussed on a very specific activity by a very specific group that was uncovered, ignoring the generality of sexual abuse in this country and trying to make out that, somehow, here we have a Pakistani problem. Stinks, don't it."

As I put it earlier, if people prefer not to discuss it the problem of on-street grooming of underage girls by British Pakistani gangs in the North of England, then this particular organised crime can only continue. If people don't discuss it, this form of organised crime will continue and will not be successfully tackled.

I suspect that white peadophile gangs in this country operate covertly here rather than out in the open, not through choice, but simply because they have to. As such white paedophiles like to go to Thialand, where they can indulge their proclivities more freely and they are far less likely to be challenged by the authorities.

If there is a 'culture of silence' or taboo around the public acknowledgment of certain crimes due to, for example, particular racial aspects of those crimes (or indeed any other reason, such as deference to religious authority), then firstly those crimes are being effectively facilitated or enabled by that silence (and those who would seek to close open discussion), and secondly such silence is only furthering the cause of bigotry and racism against the wider communities to whom such criminal sub-cultures belong.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:36 PM

Why were all the victims who turned to Wilmer's support group victims of BPs?
And all the victims who turned to Ann Cryer?
Why are BPs like Ahmed, Allibhai-Brown and Shufiq so sure that this is a particular problem of BPs?
The senior police officers?
Why does Jim think this is mainly a crime of BPs?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:25 PM

Were these young girls being raped and trafficked by much older pimps? If so, and nobody told, then shame on them. I have heard that "nobody told" about a lot of bad things in the old days. Thankfully, hopefully, the climate of unspoken acceptance of and apathy towards abuse is gradually changing. But no doubt we still have some way to go.

I don't know. What I do know is that pimping and rape are activities indulged in widely by white men. As is trafficking. And kids' subcultures are often concealed from adults. Kids are bloody good at that, as anyone who's had teenagers can tell you. I live in a peaceful seaside town with a low crime rate, but there is still a severe problem with feral kids out late, their parents probably oblivious to the fact they're even out of the house at all, being supplied with booze by older kids or adults. This thread, hypocritically, has focussed on a very specific activity by a very specific group that was uncovered, ignoring the generality of sexual abuse in this country and trying to make out that, somehow, here we have a Pakistani problem. Stinks, don't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:16 PM

It is scurrilous of you to suggest it was my behaviour. Withdraw immediately please.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 01:55 PM

Steve...did you pass the young girls you "shagged" on to your extended family to provide a "bit of fun"?
I dont think so Steve.....these children have been dehumanised, turned into sex objects, worthless, "easy meat"

Do you really equate your behaviour with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 01:35 PM

"Jim has come round to accepting that this is a mainly BP crime."
Not waving but drowning.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 12:29 PM

"When I was a lad in the north of England there were gangs of lads in our streets who took girls off to shag 'em in the public bogs. Or take 'em back to their houses when their mams and dads were in the boozer. Everybody was white and nobody told."

Were these young girls being raped and trafficked by much older pimps? If so, and nobody told, then shame on them. I have heard that "nobody told" about a lot of bad things in the old days. Thankfully, hopefully, the climate of unspoken acceptance of and apathy towards abuse is gradually changing. But no doubt we still have some way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 11:50 AM

Yes there are gangs that are not "BPs." When I was a lad in the north of England there were gangs of lads in our streets who took girls off to shag 'em in the public bogs. Or take 'em back to their houses when their mams and dads were in the boozer. Everybody was white and nobody told. But wow, Pakistanis and white kids? Everybody sees, everybody tells, everybody gets outraged! There's a real world out there in them there streets, and those politicos don't go out at eleven at night and see it, do they? When the kids are out, getting their mates to buy 'em cheap cider, their parents drunk at home not giving a toss. The police stay in their cars too these days - they might just leap out if they see a non-white or two. Ask the blacks in inner London about that! Keith, there is a real world that you are simply not seeing.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 11:26 AM

There do not seem to be any gangs that are not BPs are there Steve?
As you say, BPs form a small minority group, so there is something that needs explaining.
Jim has come round to accepting that this is a mainly BP crime.
He clearly thinks the evidence is there.
Have another look Steve at the evidence of the study, and of Hillary Wilmer who is no big nob, and Allibhai-Brown.
Cryer is no big nob, just an ex MP.
Ahmed is a lifelong socialist and defender of his (BP) community.
Straw was a big nob in government, but his testimony comes from his experience as an MP.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 11:16 AM

Pakistani young males form a tiny part of the population of the UK. Just a few gangs in one or two areas and the statistics are totally skewed. That's what happens when you misapply statistics to small populations. The only "evidence" you have come up with is the opinions of a few big knobs. I suppose you do religion too. You'd fit in well.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 08:58 AM

Quite!
This could be a reasoned debate again.
Jim and I now agree that this is a mainly BP crime.
I would like to consider some explanations, but have only seen the one already mentioned and rejected by Jim, Steve, Lox, and Don.

You must have an opinion Jim.
Lox, you thought you had some explanations, but then you didn't.
Anything now?
Don, you had that one but it imagined just a single group of mates.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 08:46 AM

"And is that the verdict of you all?"
Was interested to find out exactly how much support Keith's mealy-mouthed evasions actually had; still don't know.
Jim Carroll



If I'm being invited to discuss "the opinions of Keith" here, I think I'll decline. He appears to have enough of a fan base already!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 08:33 AM

"And is that the verdict of you all?"
Was interested to find out exactly how much support Keith's mealy-mouthed evasions actually had; still don't know.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 07:58 AM

No percentage allows that conclusion.
All we have his the fact that BPs are massively, massively over represented in this crime.
That does not tell us why.

I have given you the explanation separately offered by all those people, who include BPs and Muslims.
I am convinced.
You say it is rubbish but offer nothing better.
Right?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 07:46 AM

dont believe you are stupid Steve.....so it figures you are being obstructive?

Keith has explained numerous times that BP's are massively over represented in this particular type of crime.

Just think percentages....and keep thinking percentages, all will be revealed.

Nah. You think percentages, then tell me what the percentage threshold is for the proportion of people from a certain group doing a certain thing for it it to be justifiably concluded that that certain thing derives from their "custom and culture." 10 per cent? Five? One per cent? A tenth of one per cent? If a tenth of one per cent of males collect butterflies, does butterfly-collecting derive from our "custom and culture?"

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 06:33 AM

I don't do 'invective', Jim.

And I retain much respect for you---

--- which is why I am concerned at the unfocussed nature of your observations on this thread, of which that meaningless "And is that the verdict of you all?", with no precise indications of to what or to whom you were referring, will do very well as an example.

I genuinely am concerned.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 06:08 AM

Jim why are YOU unable to clarify what YOU posted?
Why do you demand I clarify what is meant by your post?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 06:01 AM

"You tell us what you meant....."
No answer tells me all I need to know - thanks for that.
"Your thinking, or at least its expression, is getting woollier"
And your invective is getting nastier - we should have quit while we had some respect for each other.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 05:57 AM

"Just think percentages....and keep thinking percentages, all will be revealed."

And herein lies one of the nubs of the problem when discussing 'taboo' topics: where are the figures to be gleaned from if there is a "culture of silence" which prevents certain crimes from being brought to light in the first place? How long did it take for the scale of clerical abuse to come to light despite the fact that among those working class communities within which it was mainly occurring, the problem of clerical abuse was effectively 'common knowledge'? The official figures may register nil when in fact there are thousands of unrecognised and unacknowledged victims. According to numerous comments and articles posted on this topic online, the "figures" substantially under-represent the scale of the problem. How often to "the figures" under-represent poorly educated and economically underprivileged victims of crime who have little or no power to make themselves heard, far less believed?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 05:49 AM

'Oh - and is that the verdict of you all?
Jim Carroll'
===

Is what the verdict ofwho all, Jim?

Your thinking, or at least its expression, is getting woollier by the second. Where the hell have you parked your intellect while this thread is going on? What has happened to you, Jim? I am getting seriously concerned...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 05:38 AM

I dont believe you are stupid Steve.....so it figures you are being obstructive?

Keith has explained numerous times that BP's are massively over represented in this particular type of crime.

Just think percentages....and keep thinking percentages, all will be revealed.