BS: Muslim prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 04:42 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 01:05 PM

"Is on street grooming by groups mainly a crime of BPs?"
Yes where have I claimed it wasn't? (please answer)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 03:31 AM

Don, this is a specific type of grooming and pimping that we have been discussing for 3 months now.

Lox it is not a new twist.
I have been using this statement/question for weeks/months.

"that on-street grooming, by groups, for rape and pimping, is mainly a crime of BPs, at least in the towns and cities of Yorkshire, Lancashire, Derbyshire and Greater Manchester?"

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:57 PM

"No Lox. I have shown that it is mainly a crime of BP gangs."

This is actually a slightly new twist on what you've been saying.

Before you were just saying its a crime of British Pakistanis.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:12 PM

I have provided evidence of grooming as far back as the 1940s, when all the Pakistanis were still sorting out their own homeland.

You are the despicable fool who will not raise a finger to find out the truth of that, nor read, nor acknowledge the posts of those who do not agree with you.

Grow up for Christ's sake. Your theory is fatally flawed unless you can explain the fact that, while grooming and trafficking flourish in the South of England, the twenty nine percent of British Pakistanis who live there do not feature in it at all.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 11:57 AM

Don,
"You use the above argument to explain why these kids were too terrified to report motivation"

No Don.
It would be stupid to ask raped children for an opinion on the motivation of their abusers!
No crime victims are expected to provide that, never mind abused kids.

Wilmer is above suspicion.
It is despicable of you to smear her.

Lox,
"all the evidence you have posted shows, is that the majority of Gang members in Pakistani trafficking Gangs are Pakistani."

No Lox. I have shown that it is mainly a crime of BP gangs.
If you had any evidence of a greater number of non BP gangs doing this, you would have provided it by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 11:11 AM

all the evidence you have posted shows, is that the majority of Gang members in Pakistani trafficking Gangs are Pakistani.

Thats it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 11:07 AM

""I remind you Lox, that the victims are terrified children.
They are not going to be speculating about the motivation of their tormentors.
It is despicable of you to twist their testimony to suit your warped, worthless agenda.""

If this were not so serious, you would be funny Keith.

You use the above argument to explain why these kids were too terrified to report motivation, while at the same time being able to nail down the ethnicity of their abusers to Pakistani, as opposed to Indian, Arab, Iraqi, Iranian, or any other swarthy race.

Make up your mind man. Either they are too terrified to judge, or they are not.

The testimony twisters are Hilary Wilmer and YOU!

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 10:48 AM

Lox,
"Your hypothesis that Pakistanis are culturally predisposed to rape is, on the other hand, still a racist hypothesis. "

AGAIN Lox, it is NOT my hypothesis.
The cultural explanation I reported was proposed by 5 individuals.
Since 3 of them were famously anti-racist BPs, it CAN NOT BE a racist hypothesis.

Your only case is to claim that I am a bad person.
Suppose I was.
Everything I have said is still true.

The gangs use their younger members to ensnare the girls.
The very young ones are children themselves.
They are all BPs.
How does that undermine my case that this is mainly a crime of BPs.?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 10:21 AM

"I remind you Lox, that the victims are terrified children.
They are not going to be speculating about the motivation of their tormentors.
It is despicable of you to twist their testimony to suit your warped, worthless agenda."


Nothing to twist mate.

They said that the young boys who groomed them were used as bait by gangs.

Which bit of that is twisted?


"Your worthless philosophy can only be made to stand up by lies, deceit and groundless personal attacks on decent people. "

What philosophy Keith?

Where?

Quote please.



Your hypothesis that Pakistanis are culturally predisposed to rape is, on the other hand, still a racist hypothesis.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:17 PM

Lox
"The victims said it was a problem of organized crime."

"the victims clear consistent testimony, that this was an organized crime issue and not a cultural one."

"I choose to believe the victims."

I remind you Lox, that the victims are terrified children.
They are not going to be speculating about the motivation of their tormentors.
It is despicable of you to twist their testimony to suit your warped, worthless agenda.

Of course the perpetrators are organised gangs.
And they are BPs.

As soon as it was acknowledged, in one town, that this crime had an ethnic dimension, action could be taken.
The overwhelming majority of good and decent people in the community, once made aware of what some were doing, put a stop to it in that town.

Why has it taken so many years to do something?
Because no-one dared say who was doing it.
People like you three were ready to start screaming "RACIST!" at anyone who dared.

A terrible accusation for anyone to deal with.
For anyone in the caring or police services, it would bring a career to a shuddering stop.
And so the abuse of young kids was allowed to go on, year after year, in town after town.

Even on this thread people have been silenced.
From reading his posts you can tell that Lively knew that the over-representation was real, but he was not willing to come out and say it.
Understandably so because of the vile abuse he would receive from you three pompous, posturing Witch-Finder Generals.

Because of people like you, the brutalisation and raping of children has been allowed to go on.
Thousands of young girls sacrificed on the altar of Political Correctness.

Your worthless philosophy can only be made to stand up by lies, deceit and groundless personal attacks on decent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 10:09 AM

Lox, we can discuss the explanation, when you accept that on-street grooming, by groups, for rape and pimping, is mainly a crime of BPs, at least in the towns and cities of Yorkshire, Lancashire, Derbyshire and Greater Manchester?

Until you do, what is the point?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 08:22 AM

Sorry Keith,

Nearly, but no cigar.

You said that Pakistanis were predisposed to rape.

Cryer said it was a cultural problem.

The victims said it was a problem of organized crime.


"I choose to believe the victims."


Neither of the above assertions is even addressed by this news.

The notion of some endemic cultural psychological issue being solved overnight is just more deranged fantasy.

A much more plausible explanation is that awareness was raised of Pakistani organized crime gangs by the recent media furore, and indeed by Imams etc, which, in combination with recent arrests etc, has resulted in the gangs shutting down their trafficking activities.

Organized criminals don't take unnecessary risks, they commit crime they think they will get away with.

Media and community scrutiny are not good for organized crime.

They are still there, still dealing cocaine etc (or did you think that having cocaine lying around is a cultural thing too), but they are laying low because of what is effectively a huge neighbourhood watch initiative.

Here's the rub Keith,

If this was a cultural issue, if the alleged predominance of Pakistani men were symptomatic of that, then once the gangs were stopped, we would not have seen such a radical change.

The fact that the gangs being stopped in their tracks had made such a difference supports my view, and the victims clear consistent testimony, that this was an organized crime issue and not a cultural one.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:40 AM

Got that Lox?
Before going to the BP community.
"dozens of girls as young as 12 being groomed for sex by groups of men,
noting that "the majority of cases" involved Asian males"

After, just the usual lone pervs you get everywhere.

You talked about solutions.
Here is one that has been proved to work.
It is exactly what Ann Cryer proposed, and you rubbished.
You all were WRONG.
She was right.
I am vindicated.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 02:21 AM

No Lox.
My interpretation was the truth.
Yours is a lie.
Not "communities", just the BP community.
"preventative work such as raising
awareness in mosques has led to a dramatic change in the profile of local men prosecuted for on-street grooming."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:05 PM

Analysis of the Article provides very few new facts.

The only new facts contained in the article are the ones I have presented.

"they worked with the community and turned it around."

Thats one interpretation of the facts.

Another is just to state the facts, which are that the communities were alerted to organized crime in their midst, and the organized criminals are laying low, having been subject to arrest and scrutiny.

The idea that Pakistani communities have a cultural predisposition to rape, but that this was turned around by a few Imams speeches is just another example of your torured fantasy mind trying to turn a gfabrication into a solid gold argument.

You just keep on polishing your turds Keith - thats fine by me.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:24 PM

Lox, that Times piece.
Andrew Norfolk is a Times reporter.
He was nominated for The Press Association Journalist Of The Year for "dogged investigating".

You quoted the 80% white figure achieved in Blackburn, but neglected to say how it was achieved.
The full quote.
"Engage, a project in Blackburn, where in 2006 Police Superintendent Neil Smith
spoke of dozens of girls as young as 12 being groomed for sex by groups of men,
noting that "the majority of cases" involved Asian males, has been widely praised
for its pioneering work on child sexual exploitation.
Nick McPartlin, the project's manager, said that preventative work such as raising
awareness in mosques has led to a dramatic change in the profile of local men prosecuted for on-street grooming. He gave figures from the past year, which
suggested that 80 per cent of identified offenders were white, although those cases
included victims of all ages and both sexes and most prosecutions involved lone
perpetrators."

Got that Lox. It used to be mostly BPs but they worked with the community and turned it around.
And, the remaining abuse was mostly lone abusers.
Not what we have been talking about at all.

Norfolk stated that no-one was prepared to say who the perps were.
He said, "Barnardo's, which runs 21 projects across Britain supporting victims of child
sexual exploitation, many operating in the towns and cities of northern England,
refused to speak about the ethnicity of on-street groomers"

Narey is holding back Lox.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:02 PM

"Inter community relations is a major concern in any mult-ethnic country such as Britain, and this issue is highly sensitive.

Do you not feel that the gang raping of certainly hundreds, and possibly thousands of children should be of huge concern anywhere?"

Now this is really rich.


Keith conflates Gang rape with inter community relations, and states that it is highly sensiitive for this reason, and thiis after having stated that he believes Pakistanis to be presisposed to sexual abuse of minors!!!


I do like satire, but I never believed I would get to participate in the writing of one in which tha caricature gets to write his owwn lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 04:57 PM

Thank you Keith for posting that long article.

Your lack of analysis or scrutiny is typical.

The Article states nowhere how these three young men know what went on.

They don't say aywhere that they were involved.

They don't say anywhere that they witnessed anything.

The only thing that one of them claims to have actually seen is a video on a mobile phone.


Apart from that, the same stuff is being reported again.

Hilary Wilmer etc.

So whats new in the report?

Well there's this:

Or you wouldn't have missed this.

"Nick McPartlin, the [engage] project's manager, ... gave figures from the past year, which
suggested that 80 per cent of identified offenders were white, although those cases
included victims of all ages and both sexes and most prosecutions involved lone
perpetrators."


Sounds like the Imams haven't been ignoring Straw. Cryer et al after all.

Sounds like there's been an incredible effort to raise awareness and combat organized crime.

What else is new?

This Quote from Barnardos ex head Martin Narey:

Martin Narey, said: "Anecdotal evidence suggests that trends
relating to the predatory adults who sexually exploit young people may sometimes be linked with ethnic background. But they vary enormously throughout the
country and it would be wrong and dangerous for the media or others to generalise
on the basis of one or two cases."

Well, whatever thge explanations (keith, apparently isn't interested) it would seem that white men have committed 80% of these crimes (beginning with grooming on the street) in the last year.

Very interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Silas
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 02:20 PM

It wasn't trivial.

It is now. You made it so.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM

You choose to open the thread.
You might find it tedious but it is in no way trivial.

Inter community relations is a major concern in any mult-ethnic country such as Britain, and this issue is highly sensitive.

Do you not feel that the gang raping of certainly hundreds, and possibly thousands of children should be of huge concern anywhere?

This compares with the global abuse of children by priests, but concentrated in a small region of Britain.

I make no apology for exposing and raising awareness of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Silas
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 01:20 PM

Just doing my bit for the post count on this rather tedious thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 11:46 AM

http://www.sasorg.co.uk/docs/Muslim%20Grooming/%E2%80%98Some%20of%20these%20men%20have%20children%20the%20same%20age.pdf
(extract)
Andrew Norfolk
January 5 2011 12:00AM
The voices of three young Muslim men climb in anger. They want to share their
revulsion for fellow members of their Pakistani community who took a group of
impressionable British schoolgirls and turned them into a collection of broken sex
toys.
'Some of these men have children the same age; they are bad ...   http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article2863031.ece
1 of 6 06/01/2011 08:57
Their neighbours flirted with children as young as 12, offered rides in souped-up
cars, flashed gold jewellery and promised love, then steadily fed the girls a diet of
alcohol and drugs, eventually creating what they sought: compliant human goods
to be traded and abused by dozens of men. The groomers were men in their early
twenties. Their customers were older relatives, friends or contacts. They travelled
to the girls' home town to have sex with them or had their victims delivered by car
to Pakistani communities in northern England and the Midlands.
In a room a few streets from the address where much of the abuse took place, the
three men have agreed to speak on condition of anonymity. They are so scared of
reprisals that their town must not be named.
"The younger ones speak fluent English and they know exactly what they're doing,"
said one. "They treat the girls all nice, buy them drinks, give them cannabis. They
get them on drugs and mess them up bad. Some of the girls are from quite good
homes but they're easily manipulated.
"Half of the guys having sex with them can't speak a word of English. They're
old-school Asians or illegals working in restaurants. If a girl smiles, they think
they're in heaven. They're all a bunch of dirty, filthy bastards."
The men explain that some of the grooming was initiated on the instructions of
older relatives. Other young men were seeking kudos. Some clients were paying
customers — perhaps £10 for sex with a 14-year-old white girl. Others were being
repaid a favour. "Our community is sick and tired of these people. Some of them
are married, with children the same age as these girls. They don't deserve a place
in society. Every community has its bad apples and these are ours."
One man confides that "a lot of people" knew of the abuse but that he and others
were "too scared to do anything about it". He points to a widespread view that
betraying members of one's own community to the police would be an even greater
sin than child sexual exploitation. White girls are targeted by such men because "if
they did it to a Muslim girl, they'd be shot".
Hilary Wilmer is the chairwoman of trustees at Crop, the Coalition for the
Removal of Pimping, a national voluntary organisation that has supported more
than 400 families affected by child sexual exploitation. "Parents feel bewildered
and helpless," she said. "They have watched their child being destroyed before
their eyes by perpetrators who have very sophisticated methods."
Few experts involved in child protection in northern towns are unaware that most
cases of gang-led, on-street grooming that have come to light involve British Asian
offenders and white girls. Yet almost no one will admit it.
Important work is being done by both voluntary and statutory organisations to
protect and support vulnerable girls and their families, and also to prosecute
known offenders.
Yet The Times has been able to identify only one town in which preventive work
has been targeted on changing attitudes in the minority community to which most
of the on-street gang perpetrators belong.
Engage, a project in Blackburn, where in 2006 Police Superintendent Neil Smith
spoke of dozens of girls as young as 12 being groomed for sex by groups of men,
noting that "the majority of cases" involved Asian males, has been widely praised
for its pioneering work on child sexual exploitation.
Nick McPartlin, the project's manager, said that preventative work such as raising
awareness in mosques has led to a dramatic change in the profile of local men
'Some of these men have children the same age; they are bad ... http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article2863031.ece
3 of 6 06/01/2011 08:57
prosecuted for on-street grooming. He gave figures from the past year, which
suggested that 80 per cent of identified offenders were white, although those cases
included victims of all ages and both sexes and most prosecutions involved lone
perpetrators.
Salim Mulla, chairman of the Lancashire Council of Mosques and a local councillor
in Blackburn, said that his organisation had used its network of 103 mosques to
spread a message of "respect for young women" across the Muslim community.
"We've done a lot of preventative work in mosques and madrassas and we're still
keeping a close eye on things. We have regular meetings with the police and the
local authority. It's a very worrying situation, it's something we take very seriously
and I think we've made a real difference."
In other towns and cities, there are signs that the scale of the problem is becoming
so grave that agencies are finally prepared to seek targeted help.
In November, nine men — seven of them of Pakistani heritage, one man with a
Hindu name and one white man — were convicted of offences involving a child sex
gang that groomed, assaulted and raped 27 girls in Derby, most of them aged 12 to
16. As some of the victims were under the care of social services, a serious case
review was ordered by the Derby safeguarding children board.
Its published report urged wider consideration of "whether the ethnic background
and culture of the perpetrators had any bearing on their decision to take part in
this activity". The board is to ask the Home Office to commission the first official
research on the subject.

Barnardo's, which runs 21 projects across Britain supporting victims of child
sexual exploitation, many operating in the towns and cities of northern England,
refused to speak about the ethnicity of on-street groomers. In a written statement,
its chief executive, Martin Narey, said: "Anecdotal evidence suggests that trends
relating to the predatory adults who sexually exploit young people may sometimes
'Some of these men have children the same age; they are bad ... http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article2863031.ece
4 of 6 06/01/2011 08:57
be linked with ethnic background. But they vary enormously throughout the
country and it would be wrong and dangerous for the media or others to generalise
on the basis of one or two cases."
Fourteen years ago, Detective Chief Superintendent Max McLean, who has
recently retired, led what seems likely to have been the first British police inquiry
involving the grooming and sexual exploitation of white girls by a gang of British
Pakistani men.
It began with a plea for help from a Leeds mother whose young daughter was
leaving via her bedroom window whenever she was summoned by the beeping
horn of a private-hire car that would stop outside their house in the early hours of
the morning.
The investigation led to 23 arrests and the exposure of a sex-trafficking ring
involving a network of private-hire taxi drivers and the sexual abuse of at least 20
girls. The victims had been groomed, held captive and some were driven as far as
Newcastle upon Tyne to be used for sex by older men.
In 1997, after the two ringleaders were jailed for kidnap, rape and assault, Mr
McLean warned that what police had uncovered was the tip of an iceberg. He
alerted forces across England to the possibility that similar networks were
operating in their communities.
Looking back now, his strongest memory is of the girls' extreme vulnerability and
of the pleasure that their abusers so clearly took in exercising power and control
over them. "The men held those young girls in extremely low esteem; they thought
that this somehow justified the violation that was taking place. As the years have
passed, the message should have gone out long ago that to ignore the scale and
nature of this problem is to bury your head in the sand."
In any other type of child sex offence — online grooming, familial abuse, crimes
against prepubescent children, against boys, or grooming by adults in a position of
trust — the overwhelming majority of offenders are white men. More than 82 per
cent of sex offenders in jail are white; less than 6 per cent are Asian, a statistic that
sets in even starker relief the extent to which men of Pakistani origin dominate the
list of those convicted of on-street child grooming offences involving
gangs.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 11:07 AM

It is a joke that I get blamed for sustaining this thread!
Straw originally said that there was a problem specifically with BPs and the abuse of young girls.
He has now says he has not changed his mind.

Your discourse on the status of on-street grooming is enthralling.
I will just say that all forms of grooming are illegal.
Up to 10 years in prison.
Fact.

On street grooming for rape and pimping has been described as a serious problem in large areas of England, with many hundreds of child victims (though just the tip of an iceberg), and the perpetrators are overwhelmingly BPs.

Wilmer's statements alone make this an irrefutable fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 10:51 AM

""Straw does not say testosterone is a particular issue for BPs.
He does say that this crime is.""

NO, HE DOES NOT!!!

When will you learn to read, and report what you read, rather than re-interpret it?

He says it is ""a particular isse within some areas of the Pakistani Community", which is an entirely different story from the one you are trying so desperately to peddle.

Give it up man. You are becoming a joke.

All that statement says is that there are some bad Pakistanis. Name me a community that you think has no bad members.

Heaven excluded, of course.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 10:41 AM

""Stabbing is not a separate crime, but it is a crime.""

The only place in which anybody is ever charged with, or convicted of, stabbing is in the newspapers.

The crimes, according to the severity of the stabbing are:

Actual Bodily Harm
Grievous Bodily Harm
Malicious Wounding
Wounding With Intent
Attempted Murder
Murder

You see?.....Not one mention of the crime of "Stabbing". It is merely one method by which those six crimes may be committed.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 10:31 AM

""But I maintain that there is an issue and a specific problem within some areas of the Pakistani community.""

The perfect example of a politician's meaningless non-statement.

There is, in truth, an issue and a specific problem within some areas of every community.

All that can logically be derived from this statement is that there are good and bad in every community, and the British Pakistani community is no different.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 10:24 AM

""Returning to on-street grooming by groups, we have many hundreds of victims where the perps. are BPs, and so far none where the perps are from any other group.
You would need many thousands of such to make BPs minority offenders.""

I have re-posted this in the forlorn hope that you, Keith, will summon up the energy to READ IT. I am sorry that it is longer than your normal twenty word attention span, but it is pertinent to the discussion.

Your above sentence alone proves that you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

There is no such thing as on street grooming by groups. All on street and off street grooming is by individuals.

Only when the victim has been groomed and is hooked on the individual does the introduction of others to the scene begin, and the end product is the passing over of the victim to a trafficking ring, usually being paid for supplying her for use by the gang.

As I have repeatedly pointed out, this has been going on since long before the first Pakistani got off the boat onto English soil.

It is NOT a new phenomenon, nor is it related to any single culture.

You asked for thousands of others to reduce the "over representation", well they are there.

Eastern European, English, Turkish, Cypriot, Afro Caribbean and many more. Each gang (or group if you prefer) tends to be composed of a single ethnic type as none of the groups trust the others.

You really haven't a clue, have you? You see a ring of criminal gangs, of an ethnic background you distrust, and you are ready and willing to take comments made about this tiny number, and extrapolate from them to encompass their whole culture.

This in spite of the fact that the people who made the comments absolutely do not support that interpretation.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,wampum
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:42 AM

I wonder if the monthly Hertford session is as *interesting* as this?
:>(

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:36 AM

"That covers much more than just on-street grooming."

Oh yes ... the guys convicted in Derby were also convicted of crimes covering a lot more than street grooming.

That was just where they went to groom their victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 08:25 AM

"Stabbing is not a separate crime, but it is a crime.
So is on-street grooming.
Why do you deny it?"

Another Non Sequitir, followed by more alzheimers and a bit of making shit up.

1."Stabbing is not a separate crime, but it is a crime."

Murder is a crime.

You cannot be convicted of Murder and stabbing.

ABH with intent to injure is a crime.

You cannot be convicted of ABH(witi) 'and' stabbing

The stabbing is merely the method by which you commit the murder or the ABH.

2. "So is on-street grooming. Why do you deny it?"

Dando clarify that it is not a crime type.

you cannot be convicted of Grooming 'and' street grooming.


Shall we examine the law?

What constitutes grooming in law?

"the offender must either have met or communicated with the child on two previous occasions;
the offender must then either meet the child or travel with the intention of meeting the child; and
at that time, the offender has the intention of committing a relevant sexual offence. "

Well thats pretty clear isn't it.

Where Keith, apart from online, do you think an offender meet a child for the first time ?

On a bus? in a park? on the street? in a shopping mall?

I'd say all of the above.

Do you think "bus Grooming" or "park grooming" should be recognized as crimes to Keith?

Or would that just be silly?

I think that would be very silly.

Why don't you stop being silly now Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 07:59 AM

"They say "It ranges from them being given accommodation in return for sexual activities through to being exploited through more 'formal' exploitation."

Shall we break it down?

"being given accommodation in return for sexual activities"

Who needs accommodation?

(a) Kids with a home and a PC? or (b) kids living on the street.

The answer is (b).

And where Keith, do you suppose that kids living on the street are groomed?

(a) in an aeroplane, (b) in a submarine or (c) on the street.

I know - its a toughie ... the answer is (c)


Now what would you say "formal exploitation" meant?

is it (a) shaking hands before committing rape? (b) saying please and thank you? or (c) organized crime?

The answer Keith is organized crime, involving pimping andd trafficking etc.

So sexual exploitation, as described by Barnardos, ranges from individual acts of coercion against girls groomed on the street to organized pimping and trafficking.

Exactly the ball park this thread is about.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:25 AM

"They say "It ranges from them being given accommodation in return for sexual activities through to being exploited through more 'formal' exploitation."

That covers much more than just on-street grooming.

Stabbing is not a separate crime, but it is a crime.
So is on-street grooming.
Why do you deny it?

Sex crimes are mostly committed by the majority group.
On-street grooming is mostly committed by BPs.

Straw does not say testosterone is a particular issue for BPs.
He does say that this crime is.
That is what started this furore, and he has not changed his mind.
Your link tells us that.
Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 06:03 AM

"Sexual exploitation includes all kinds of sexual abuse."

No Keith.

I knew you would ignore Barnardos.

Their definition is much more specific than your vague cop out.

They say "It ranges from them being given accommodation in return for sexual activities through to being exploited through more 'formal' exploitation."

That is not just general abuse.

It is a very specific definiton.

In the context of the Lancashire telegraph article it is even more so and describes exaactly the crimes we are discussing here.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:59 AM

On street grooming is an issue Keith.

What is an issue?

Well there are about 20 possible definiitons of the noun, but the only two relevant here are as follows.

"a point in question or a matter that is in dispute, as between contending parties in an action at law."

and

"a point, matter, or dispute, the decision of which is of special or public importance: the political issues."


i.e. it is something being debated and discussed.

i.e we don't know what it is for sure, so we are debating it.

Not only that but it is being investigated for us.

By Dando and by CEOP.


Dando concluded that it is not aa seperate crime type.

CEOP has yet to provide an answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:52 AM

"On-street grooming IS a crime. "

Not a seperate crime type.

The crime is grooming.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:48 AM

"It also states that 3months later Jack Straw still states it is an issue and particular problem of Pakistanis."

Ah yes - tactic #2 - changing the wording of inconvenient quotes.

No he didn't say it was a particular problem of Pakistanis, he said that he still thinks its an issue and a specific problem within some areas of the Pakistani community.

Back to his idea of fizzing popping young men ... which the victims say isn't the case.

He also says that the majority of offenders are white, and that that has always been his position.

Perhaps you'd like help crossing the road too?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:48 AM

Lox, largely thanks to CROP, all kinds of grooming (contacting a child for the purpose of sexual activity) are a crime.
On-street grooming IS a crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:45 AM

Waste of a post.
We know that is how the perpetrators gain power over the victims.
The perpetrators are mostly BPs.
Would you like all the evidence again?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:45 AM

"You deny it is a crime, and provide a link that states it is."


Perhaps new glasses might be the answer Keith.

The link states nowehere that Street Grooming is a crime.


It states that on street grooming is a means of grooming that is being succesfully prevented.


(Keiths predictable tactic #1 - making shit up)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:40 AM

An interesting quote from the Barnardos Page about Sexual exploitation.

"It is often difficult for these children to accept that they are being exploited but they are always coerced in some way into such a lifestyle by others. For example, it is common for a girl to think that the man who controls every aspect of her life is her boyfriend and she will remain loyal to him even when he coerces her into having sex with others and in some cases resorts to violence to ensure compliance."

Note this bit:

"it is common for a girl to think that the man who controls every aspect of her life is her boyfriend and she will remain loyal to him even when he coerces her into having sex with others".

Hmmm ... noot a specific charactaristic of Pakistanis then eh?

The plot thickens!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:31 AM

Sexual exploitation includes all kinds of sexual abuse.
This discussion is about on street grooming.
You deny it is a crime, and provide a link that states it is.
Thank you.
It also states that 3months later Jack Straw still states it is an issue and particular problem of Pakistanis.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 05:20 AM

"priority is to arrest offenders of all types of 'abhorrent' child abuse, whether street grooming, online or within the family. "

Did you deduce that from this?

"The team has also identified 44 individuals involved in sexual exploitation of which 32 were white, 11 Asian and 1 other."

By sexual exploitation what diid you think they meant?

let me save you the bother of redefining the term to suit you.

Barnardo's definition of Sexual Exploitation.

So we aren't talking about "all types of 'abhorrent' child abuse" but specifically about exactly the same crime "we have been discussing all along"

The article is consistent. It talks about preventative measures for stopping kids being groomed on the street, and it talks about the prevention of the sexual exploitation of children using these preventative measures.


Now for 500 posts or so of Keith ignoring some bits, forgetting other bits, offering hallucinatory interpretations of inconvenient bits and then bizarre tortured logic to explain away his total lack of a case.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 02:52 AM

From your link Lox.

priority is to arrest offenders of all types of 'abhorrent' child abuse, whether street grooming, online or within the family.


"We recognised that there was an issue in relation to on-street grooming of young people by adults who have power over them by virtue of their age, gender, intellect or status."

Jack Straw, Blackburn MP, said: "These figures show what a great job Lancashire police is doing and the effectiveness of the Engage programme.

"The breakdown by ethnicity is consistent with what I've said all along, that the majority of perpetrators of this type of crime are white.

"But I maintain that there is an issue and a specific problem within some areas of the Pakistani community."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 01:44 AM

Engage deals with all kinds of exploitation of children.
CROP specialises in the grooming of children for prostitution (pimping) by gangs.
That is the crime we have been discussing for 3 months.
It is mainly a crime of BPs.
That is why it suits you to deny it is even a crime, and to change the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 01:32 AM

Engage is a multi-agency initiative to safeguard vulnerable youngsters in East Lancashire. It was launched around the time the Lancashire Telegraph's Keep Them Safe campaign uncovered the problem of gangs of older men grooming girls for sex in 2005.

Voluntary organisation CROP teamed up with Operation Engage team as it works to end the sexual exploitation of children and young people by pimps and traffickers.

Vulnerable parents are helped by the group once a referral has been made to the Engage team.
http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/news/8809386.Parent_officer_appointed_to_Engage_team/

DANCE teacher Edwin 'Teddy Eddie' Dillon was jailed yesterday for sexual activity with five under-age girls. It was the child sexual exploitation specialist unit Engage's biggest ever investigation.
http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/8454722.Mother___s_anguish_at_Blackburn_dance_teacher_s_grooming_of_daughter/

That case was October 2010.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 07:37 PM

The link again to allow folks to see just how laughably Myopic poor Keith really is.


The Web page, including the quote from Mail and the actual Lancashire Telegraph Article

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 06:56 PM

"The Guardian piece was to establish that those 56 convictions were for on-street grooming by groups.
That is what I am discussing.
That is what the Dando Institute Report was about.
That is what Straw, Cryer, Ahmed, Allibhai-Brown, the police, The Guardian, the CEOPS investigation and BBC investigation are all concerned with."

mm hmmm ... and none of them establishes it as a crime type.

In fact, the Dando institute clarify that it isn't one.


"Your Lancs Telegraph link produced the quote I gave."

No Keith, it credits it to the Daily Mail very clearly.

"The biggest case they [engage] have ever dealt with was that music teacher who groomed a few pupils."

You clearly missed this from the Article.

"Specialist team Engage in Blackburn with Darwen, Hyndburn and Ribble Valley, has identified 134 victims and Freedom in Burnley, Pendle and Rossendale, has helped 61 victims.

The team has also identified 44 individuals involved in sexual exploitation of which 32 were white, 11 Asian and 1 other.

Of those, 20 have been arrested, five charged and 21 abduction notices issued.".

You should really pay attention then you might stand a chance of not looking so unbelievably thick.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 02:43 PM

Lox,
The Guardian piece was to establish that those 56 convictions were for on-street grooming by groups.
That is what I am discussing.
That is what the Dando Institute Report was about.
That is what Straw, Cryer, Ahmed, Allibhai-Brown, the police, The Guardian, the CEOPS investigation and BBC investigation are all concerned with.
If you three are determined to talk about other crimes, I can't stop you.

Your Lancs Telegraph link produced the quote I gave.
The rest is about Engage.
They pass all their On-Street Grooming cases to Wilmer's CROP.
The biggest case they have ever dealt with was that music teacher who groomed a few pupils.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 02:25 PM

Poor Keith, If it isn't Alzheiners its chronic Myopia.


No keith,

First of all, the link does not lead to the Guardian.

Second, you have merely provided part of a comment which you have selectively edited, The bit you quote comes from the Daily Mail and the rest of the comment says "Kinda puzzling really how most papers quote these figures!"

It says that because the actual article my link leads to provides information that The Mail forgot to report.

Like Straws comment:

"Jack Straw, Blackburn MP, said: "These figures show what a great job Lancashire police is doing and the effectiveness of the Engage programme.

"The breakdown by ethnicity is consistent with what I've said all along, that the majority of perpetrators of this type of crime are white. "


Here's the title of the report.

"50 East Lancashire men warned over child grooming"

Its an article about a new way of preventing children from being groomed and abducted on the street.

As Street grooming ois not a crime, they can't arrest them, so instead they iissue them with a notice banning them from stopping and chatting to young children on the street.

It states:

"MORE than 50 men have been issued with 'abduction notices' to stop them approaching children in East Lancashire."

and

"For example, a letter can warn the person not to stop and talk to under-age children in his car."

And no you don't have to be a convicted Paedophile.

"Police said the notices were used as a 'shot across the bows' by officers when there was evidence of concerning behaviour by potential abusers."

then

"Specialist team Engage in Blackburn with Darwen, Hyndburn and Ribble Valley, has identified 134 victims and Freedom in Burnley, Pendle and Rossendale, has helped 61 victims.

The team has also identified 44 individuals involved in sexual exploitation of which 32 were white, 11 Asian and 1 other.

Of those, 20 have been arrested, five charged and 21 abduction notices issued."

and

"Pennine's Freedom team, which has dedicated police, children's services and a health nurse, has identified 13 individuals, of whom five are white and eight asian.

They have made 10 arrests leading to one charge and issued 33 abduction notices."

I suspect you will ignore all that or try to suggest that Straw meant something entirely different.

However, his words clearly contradict your assertion that this is a peculiarly Pakistani problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 12:54 PM

""Returning to on-street grooming by groups, we have many hundreds of victims where the perps. are BPs, and so far none where the perps are from any other group.
You would need many thousands of such to make BPs minority offenders.""

This sentence alone proves that you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

There is no such thing as on street grooming by groups. All on street and off street grooming is by individuals.

Only when the victim has been groomed and is hooked on the individual does the introduction of others to the scene begin, and the end product is the passing over of the victim to a trafficking ring, usually being paid for supplying her for use by the gang.

As I have repeatedly pointed out, this has been going on since long before the first Pakistani got off the boat onto English soil.

It is NOT a new phenomenon, nor is it related to any single culture.

You asked for thousands of others to reduce the "over representation", well they are there.

Eastern European, English, Turkish, Cypriot, Afro Caribbean and many more. Each gang (or group if you prefer) tends to be composed of a single ethnic type as none of the groups trust the others.

You really haven't a clue, have you? You see a ring of criminal gangs, of an ethnic background you distrust, and you are ready and willing to take comments made about this tiny number, and extrapolate from them to encompass their whole culture.

This in spite of the fact that the people who made the comments absolutely do not support that interpretation.

Don T.