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BS: Muslim prejudice
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,Jon Date: 30 Jun 11 - 12:59 PM Again very unjust Jon. Implicating the all Britsh Pakistanis without evidence is just, Keith? (I know, you only quote others...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jun 11 - 11:23 AM Again very unjust Jon. My case was just the over-rep. I put up published pieces that supported that, but unfortunately they also suggested reasons for it, and that is all you people want to talk about. I have nothing to say about those suggestions. I have not any knowledge to support or refute the suggestions. They are not mine, and I do not care if anyone believes them or not. My case is just the over-rep. I can't be what I am not Jon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,Jon Date: 30 Jun 11 - 10:10 AM I am not an expert on black holes or BP culture. What do you people expect from me? I don't expect you to repeat theories and stats and when questioned, respond "it wasn't me sir". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jun 11 - 09:47 AM I think that is unjust Jon. If we were discussing black holes, I might post something I had read by Hawkins. If challenged on one of his equations, what possible response could I make other but the one I have given here. I am not an expert on black holes or BP culture. What do you people expect from me? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,Jon Date: 30 Jun 11 - 09:38 AM Just weasel like. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jun 11 - 09:30 AM Honest? Cautious? Modest? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,Jon Date: 30 Jun 11 - 09:27 AM It would be unreasonable of me to make any such claim, but not unreasonable for me to report such a statement made by authoritative persons. I've got a pet a bit like that... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jun 11 - 07:43 AM Jon, "So you do you agree that it would be unreasonable to make any statement that implicates British Pakistanis (or other culture) on a national level? " It would be unreasonable of me to make any such claim, but not unreasonable for me to report such a statement made by authoritative persons. Jim, Asians includes BPs. Where the ethnicicity of the Asian offenders was recorded, 96% were BPs |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,Jon Date: 30 Jun 11 - 07:37 AM Jon, I too have only claimed an over-rep in a specified area, i.e. towns and cities of Midlands (less W Mids), Derbyshire, Lancashire, That is my case. So you do you agree that it would be unreasonable to make any statement that implicates British Pakistanis (or other culture) on a national level? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jun 11 - 07:32 AM "were from Asian backgrounds," And not from Pakistani backgrounds which has been the claim from the beginning of this racist thread-drift - racial stereotyping (or maybe they all look the same to the individual(s) who made this a racist bunfeast (and their cheerers on from the sidelines). Those wishing to claim some sort vindication for their racism from this report will do so anyway, as will those who only stand and act as apologists. "But Peter Davies, the Ceop chief executive, cautioned against the assumption that street grooming was simply an ethnic problem. He said that the incomplete nature of the data meant that the report fell short of being a comprehensive national picture. He added: "It has to be a possibility that there is a disproportionate level of offenders from one section of the community but it is not certain ... Approaching this issue through the lens of ethnicity can be distracting. "Offenders do not come from any particular background and any child can be sexually exploited. Child sexual exploitation is child sex abuse no matter who carries out the act, no matter what the background of the offender." The report said that the difficulty of obtaining accurate and comprehensive data meant that its figures were a "significant under-representation of the true scale of child sexual exploita¬tion in the UK". The limited data found that 38 percent of the offenders were white,, 3 percent were black but that the ethnicity of 33 percent was unknown or other." Perhaps, as merely the Chief Executive of CEOPS, his voice doesn't carry far enough for Keith to take any notice, as with Barnardos And the beat goes on...... Jim Carroll PS And still no sign of "cultural implants" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jun 11 - 07:23 AM Jon, I too have only claimed an over-rep in a specified area, i.e. towns and cities of Midlands (less W Mids), Derbyshire, Lancashire, Yorkshire and Greater Manchester. That is my case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,Jon Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:59 AM Jon, you previously accepted the over-rep. Kieth, I believe you are deliberately misrepresenting what I have been saying. With the information available, I am prepared to accept that there is an over-rep in certain cities in the N of England. My position is unchanged on this. I however believe it is very dangerous to attempt to use such patchy stats to reach a "national conclusion". My position is unchanged on this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:54 AM Jon, you previously accepted the over-rep. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:53 AM And be aware that these are national figures. They have chosen not to do a regional analysis even though it was in their remit. It has always been clear that the over-rep was concentrated in the Midlands and the North of England. Last week The Times published an accurate preview, and said there were to be discussions on how to present the data to minimise racial tensions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,Jon Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:49 AM You were convinced Jon. This new evidence can hardly unconvince you! What are you referring to, Keith? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: MGM·Lion Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:44 AM "Massive. This is substantiated." Maybe you should read this morning's Times Jim Carroll ===== ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, It is open in front of me, Jim. It says that 26% of offenders in the CEOP 6-month survey were from Asian backgrounds, and that between 4 & 6% of the British population as a whole are estimated to be from Asian backgrounds. And [let's leave aside the emotive adjective 'massive'], I would call that a considerable over-representation. It appears you wouldn't. I suggest you learn to read, and to count. Regards ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,Jon Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:40 AM Keith, you are ignoring the expert opinion and following your own agenda which to me is looking increasingly suspect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:36 AM The expert advice is that the evidence is incomplete, not that it is wrong. This evidence may not be totally conclusive, but it does not stand alone. You were convinced Jon. This new evidence can hardly unconvince you! All the victims who went to their MPs, Straw and Cryer. All abused by BPs. All the victims of those convicted in the 17 cases in the Dando report. 95% BPs. All the hundreds of Sikh and Hindu girls who went to their own support groups . All abused by BPs. Barnados. They said that ethnic groups were "over-represented" They said there was an issue of "ethnicity" in high profile (many victim) cases. All the 400 seen by Wilmer. All stated that BPs were their abusers. All the victims seen by Bindel. The same. All the victims in the German report. All the same. The victims who recorded their statements. All the same. All the victims in the three current court cases aginst BP gangs. Whether the BP gangs are convicted or not, the victims all accuse them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,Jon Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:07 AM No Keith, you are ignoring the expert advice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:04 AM Sorry, Of the gangs whose ethnicity was recorded, 40% Asian. 650% over-rep, or 1950% if the Asians were BPs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:03 AM Jon, I accept all that is said about the limitations of the data, but that is what we have. Of the gangs whose ethnicity was recorded, 40% Asian. 500% over-rep, or 1500% if the Asians were BPs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,Jon Date: 30 Jun 11 - 05:49 AM One might wonder what point there was in attempting to investigate the matter at all if the data gathered is supposedly so poor that the investigators only conclusions are that no conclusions can be drawn from the data collected. Well I suppose one could hope that it could be used to persuade others not to jump to hasty conclusions... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,livelylass Date: 30 Jun 11 - 05:47 AM Well, bar "more needs to be done" one thing that the Ceop report has confirmed is that all the 'mere anecdotal' reports made by field workers, police and other victim advocates that currently recorded figures of specifically street based sexual grooming of young teenage girls, represent a "tip of the iceburg", appears to have been substantiated: "Solomon said the figures represented "a scratching at the surface" of what was the hidden problem of vulnerable children being targeted, groomed, internally trafficked and subjected to extreme forms of sexual abuse and violence on British streets." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,Jon Date: 30 Jun 11 - 05:46 AM Keith, I will try one of your favourite types of argument: Surely the as the director of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection centre (Ceop) who wrote the report, Peter Davies should be among the experts you value so highly? Surely he is better placed to asses the value of its data than "you or I"? Why is it that you choose to ignore: "I would send a note of caution about trying to extrapolate anything from this. Looking at this issue through the lens of ethnicity does not do the victims any favours," Do you know better than he? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jun 11 - 05:36 AM Jon, yes they were disappointed that people chose not to record ethnicity in most cases. We know that political correctness and racial sensitivity has been an issue. Of the cases where it was recorded, 26% Asian. 450% over-rep. Of the 31 Asians whose ethnicity was recorded, 30 were BPs. If that was representative, over 1000% over-rep. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,livelylass Date: 30 Jun 11 - 05:34 AM "the data gathered by his investigators was incomplete, not nationwide and of poor quality." One might wonder what point there was in attempting to investigate the matter at all if the data gathered is supposedly so poor that the investigators only conclusions are that no conclusions can be drawn from the data collected. How much money did this meaningless exercise cost? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: GUEST,Jon Date: 30 Jun 11 - 05:25 AM From the Guardian: But Peter Davies, the director of the Child Exploitation and Online Protection centre (Ceop), which carried out the research, warned against jumping to conclusions on the ethnicity of offenders because the data gathered by his investigators was incomplete, not nationwide and of poor quality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jun 11 - 05:22 AM I have it in front of me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jun 11 - 05:05 AM "Massive. This is substantiated." Maybe you should read this morning's Times Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jun 11 - 04:49 AM I said I would expose your lie if you used it again. Here is every use of a word beginning "paed" by me in connection to BPs in this thread. (except when quoting you 3 who use it in nearly every post, so desperate are you to make the smaear stick.) 24th Jan. Paedophilia is not endorsed,(by Islam) 22nd March Lively, I agree about it not being necessarily paedophilia 25th March The offenders were not viewed as paedophiles but had picked the girls 'because of their malleability' 21st April The contention is that children are easier meat than older girls, not that the offenders are necessarily paedophiles. 21st April Jim, I just told you that paedophilia was not a contention! 9th June Also, it is suggested that children are targetted because they are easy meat, not because of paedophilia. 11th June I have repeatedly told you that I acknowledge that paedophilia is mostly a white crime. 14th June Most paedophiles in this country are white, 18th June No-one here has ever claimed a link between paedophilia and culture. 19th June Jim, I keep telling you that I do not regard participation in this form of abuse as evidence of paedophilia. 20th June Paedophilia is not a crime Don. It is a condition. I do not think these offenders are driven by it. 22nd June I keep telling you that I am NOT postulating paedophilia. Why do you keep on about it? 25th June I have stated repeatedly, since January, that I do not regard paedophilia as an issue in this. 25th June You said I accused BPs of paedophilia. That was and is a lie. I never did, and don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jun 11 - 03:39 AM I have promised to answer any question/point. Hold me to it if I have missed any, but I think not. "Your efforts to move this thread into your own comfort zone " Fair comment. I would like to discuss the issues, not me! "Now you want us to debate the merits and de-merits of your 'impeccable sources'" Not true. You started a smear campaign against them and I countered it. The only claim I have made is about the over-rep. Any "statements" are the reported statements of others more knowledgeable than any of us. "tendency towards paedophelia (yes, you have made such a claim) " That is a lie Jim. Massive. This is substantiated. "massive over-representation" of paedophiles among the British Pakistani population" NOT paedophiles, but "localised grooming" offenders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jun 11 - 03:02 AM "Jim I will answer any question, and I believe I have already." No you won't and you haven't - and personally I don't give a toss. Your efforts to move this thread into your own comfort zone (a debate on a - to date - unsubstantiated over-representation) and away from your claims of an ethnic minority corrupted by its own culture. Your denials of first having not made such a suggestion, then claiming you took it from somebody else, and now apparently saying it was Don's idea and not yours, underlines what a waste of time it is debating with you (or rather, your absent 'evidence providers', as you refuse to come out from behind them). Now you want us to debate the merits and de-merits of your 'impeccable sources' - no takers. I have no idea whether Jasmin Allibhai-Brown intended to express racist views - she claims to have done so - go and argue with her; my sole interest is in your crass suggestion that she couldn't possibly have expressed one - I have shown that she could and has. My point is that you have proved that you don't have the balls to defend your own arguments and insist on cowering behind 'eminent' others. Are you really saying that you are so ignorant of this subject that you can't explain why you support the statements you have made and have to rely on the 'eminence' and 'expertise' of others? It is your own statements you need to debate - have the courage to do so. Show us your reasons for claiming that the British Pakistani people have a culturally implanted tendency towards paedophelia (yes, you have made such a claim) - show us why, if this is the case, it is not apparent throughought the whole population - not a scholarly analysis; a suggestion will do, show us why such a claim is not a clear incitement to race hatred aimed at an entire ethnic minority - show us your evidence for a "massive, massive over-representation" of paedophiles among the British Pakistani population (I notice that your attempts to back-pedal on this one by removing the "massive" has now been abandoned as a lost cause) - show us why you put up an organisation in your support, then totally ignore their suggestion that making this a race issue is likely to damage already damaged victims, doesn't their knowledge of child protection include such aspects, or do you know better?. There have been arguments put against your outrageous and dishonest statements - you have ignored them and then claimed they have not been made - trawl through them and answer those points - its never too late. The only reason I can think of for continuing to debate with you is to allow you to continue to show yourself for what you are - but you can have too much of a good thing; you've already more than satisfied us on that score. Our week long traditional music school is about to start here - I think I need the fresh air of that joyful event rather than ploutering around this particularly foetid and impenetrable swamp - will look in from time-to-time. Until you come up with something we can honestly debate - good luck with your quest. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Jun 11 - 05:22 PM If A-B joked about being racist against whites in favour of BPs, that is evidence of how anti racist towards her own BP community she is. Ahmed was in a fatal traffic accident and was using his 'phone at the time. That is a serious offence, but it does not make him a racist, and his title does not make him an aristo. While he worked during the week-day as a greengrocer in a local market, he began his political career as a local councillor, with most of his activity centred around the North of England. He founded the British Muslim Councillors' Forum in 1992. As a Muslim peer, Lord Ahmed took his oath on the Qur'an. Much of his activities relate to the Muslim community, both at home and internationally. Ahmed led one of the first delegations on behalf of the British Government on the Muslim pilgrimage of the Hajj, to Saudi Arabia and has advocated legislation against religious discrimination, international terrorism and forced marriages.[citation needed] At home, Ahmed speaks on wider equality issues, and has spoken several times on issues of race, religion and gender. He is seen as one of the leaders of the Muslim community in Britain. He claims to have tried to calm tensions following the aftermath of the 11 September attacks in 2001. As a resident of Rotherham, Ahmed has spoken on behalf of the communities in that region, particularly the families of the former steelworkers of the 1960s, from the Indian subcontinent who are now second or third generation British. He has worked on the plight of Muslims around the world ranging from the collapse of former Yugoslavia, especially to the Bosniaks and Palestinians. He has been on many delegations to the Arab world, the US, Eastern Europe, Africa, the former states of the USSR and the Far East, meeting with heads of state to discuss their respective problems and how he may be able to assist them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazir_Ahmed,_Baron_Ahmed |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:29 PM Jim I will answer any question, and I believe I have already. But Jim, why are they all about me and not the issues? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:13 PM "do not represent 25% of the UK population (yet)," And then there were three !! - loved the "yet" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:08 PM "I am objecting to you making it about me instead of the issues."The "issues" are about the way you refuse to give a straight answer, And now you have the reason why nobody wants to talk to you Keith - you don't answer questions, you hide behind other people's statements, you squeal victimisation when you are challenged.... everything I said earlier today. Let's see if you can do any better now Tinkerbell is back Not a joke Mike, though your role of apologist might be described as such. There are plenty of others saying similar things, and one of your lot proposed she should be stoned - was that a "middle England" joke that I didn't understand? She even accepted the charge of 'racism' herself after she made a near-the-nuckle statement - j-o-k-e as well, no doubt I have nothing bad to say about the lady, but it's interesting to see Keith's reaction - or non-reaction - as the case may be. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: MGM·Lion Date: 29 Jun 11 - 02:49 PM "On 25 August 2008, she (Jasmin Allibhai-Brown) appeared on Five's The Wright Stuff discussion programme. In a discussion about an employment issue relating to white men, Yasmin Alibhai Brown said "Take his advice. Don't apply. It would be great if you lot just went away; white, middle class men. We'd just walk in wouldn't we." When challenged by the host for the day, Richard Bacon, "Is that not a racist comment?" she replied "Of course" ======= Richard Bacon was being light-heartedly provocatively facetious, Jim. She was playing along in conformity with the tone & the context of the programme. That is obvious. It was a joke. You know: J·O·K·E ~~ you've heard of them? People make them when exchanging banter on discussion programmes. You will really have to do better than that if you are to discount Keith's citing of Alibhai-Brown as an anti-racist, you know. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Jun 11 - 02:31 PM I am not claimimg victimisation. I am objecting to you making it about me instead of the issues. It is not about me. I do not know anything about it, except what is published. What is published strongly suggests an over-representation, and a cultural explanation for it. Let's discuss that, not me. And, what is this question of Don's? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jun 11 - 01:25 PM "Straight back to discussing me again!" NO I AM NOT - I AM QUESTIONING THE TOTAL DEPENDENCY YOU HAVE PLACED ON YOUR SOURCES Stop crying victimisation and answer the question And once again - you implication that ALL Pakistanis are linked to paedophelia via their culture does implicate ALL Pakistanis - your statement. Where does your impeccable that ALL Pakistanis are implicated? Address Don's points and answer my question Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Brian May Date: 29 Jun 11 - 01:04 PM Having left this alone for some time, I saw the results of a survey saying that 25% of those responsible for the grooming of young girls for sex, were Asian. These same people probably are down the mosque every relevant time period and are all sweetness and light in their own community. Protected by UK race relations law. Considering that Asians do not represent 25% of the UK population (yet), they represent a disproportionate threat. They are still 'masked' by an inability of the 'average' Brit being able to comment on it because they can STILL play the racist card. Nothing's changed, it's just more obvious now. Perhaps this country's law makers are finally waking up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Jun 11 - 12:31 PM Don's question? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Jun 11 - 12:28 PM Straight back to discussing me again! Oh dear. I did not quote my "experts" out of context Jim. I gave large verbatim quotes. Shafiq did say it was linked to attitudes to white girls. He is still saying that. Ahmed and A-B did blame it on repressive marriage practices. Do you deny that Jim? Do you deny arguing that any cultural explanation accuses the whole community.("blatant lie!??) They must all be accusing the whole community including themselves then. Believing them is the total of my contribution here. I have never claimed a cultural link. I believe in one, BUT ONLY BECAUSE OF WHAT THE "EXPERTS" SAY. I make no case about it. I have not the knowledge to do so. Now can we discuss the issues. What reasons do you suggest for the over-rep? If you are not sure it is not cultural, why is it racist to be not sure it is? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jun 11 - 12:27 PM So what you are saying is: A She never said what it is claimed she said. B That you agree with what she said. c That she is only an 'impeccable source' when she says the things you agree with. D That when she admits that what she has said is racist ("Bacon, "Is that not a racist comment?" she replied "Of course""): she is telling lies. Which is it to be? I know very well what her track record is - I pointed it out to you earlier. I'm not supporting or criticising her views; just challenging your suggestion that she couldn't be a racist. And your answer to Don's question is.....? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Jun 11 - 11:53 AM The "racist" Alibhai-Brown. Commission for Racial Equality special award for outstanding contribution to journalism 2000 GG2 Leadership and Diversity award Media Personality of the Year 2001 In April 2004, her film on Islam for Channel 4 won an award and in May 2004, she received the EMMA award for best print journalist for her columns in the Independent. In September 2004, a collection of her journalistic writings, Some of My Best Friends Are… was published in 2005. From 1996 to 2001 she was a Research Fellow at the Institute for Public Policy Research which published True Colours on the role of government on racial attitudes. Tony Blair launched the book in March 1999. She is a senior fellow at the Foreign Policy Centre. In 2000 she published, Who Do We Think We Are? which went on to be published in the US too, an acclaimed book on the state of the nation. Andrew Marr and Sir Bernard Crick among other reviewers found the book exceptionally wise and challenging. After Multiculturalism, a pamphlet re-assessing the multicultural ideology in Britain was the first critical examination by a social democrat of a settled and now damaging orthodoxy. She is also a regular international public speaker in Britain, other European countries, North America and Asian nations. In 2001 came the publication of Mixed Feelings, a book on mixed race Britons which has been praised by all those who have reviewed it to date. In June 1999, she received an honorary degree from the Open University for her contributions to social justice. Read more about this racist here. http://www.alibhai-brown.com/about.php |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 29 Jun 11 - 11:38 AM ""Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:28 PM This particular crime, dubbed street grooming, is the domain of male muslim gangs according to the people in a position to know. There is lots of other dreadful crime for which other groups are responsible, but let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for."" The above is the first mention of a cultural connection which Keith persistently claims I made up nearly three weeks after this post from him Here's the whole of my post which, as anyone can see does not refer to a "cultural implant", a phrase I have not used, but reports Keith A's confirmation that he believes in a "culturally implanted tendency". (the underlining is mine) Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM Date: 12 Feb 11 - 07:52 PM ""Don, you cut the next line from my post you just quoted. It was, "If it did give rise to just a slight predisposition, then only a tiny minority would succumb. And that is exactly what is found.""" I cut the line because it is irrelevant to the point at issue in my conversation with DeG, in which he said ""I have not heard Keith say that all Pakistanis (of whetever nationality) are child molesters."". When asked the question ""their culture inspires a slight predisposition to the grooming and abuse of underage girls. Can you confirm that that is your opinion of British Pakistanis?"", you replied ""It is my opinion that it is a reasonable suggestion. The over representation is a fact that requires an explanation. Something is predisposing them, and it is more likely to be something sexual in the culture than your alternative list. (wild generalisations?)"". However small the number of those who succumb to the temptation, and however slight that tendency may be, it does not alter the fact that you believe that all male Pakstani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency toward paedophile rape. Your obdurate refusal to give more cautious and balanced suggestions the slightest consideration merely accentuates the degree of prejudice in your view of this section of Society. Don T. Later he confirmed again that belief. Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 13 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM ""Don, no one on this thread has claimed any of those things. Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb. Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us?"" Complete posts, with nothing removed. So Keith resorts to nit picking in an attempt to cover up the truth of my statements, by focussing attention on on phrase that is not even present. Economical with the truth is a generous view of our friend Keith's contribution. It's a bit like trying to debate with Tweedledum and Tweedledee, only less productive. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jun 11 - 11:12 AM Or this: "The journalist and broadcaster, Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, who arrived here from Uganda in 1972, was on the board of the Runnymede Trust when the report was released. This is how one high profile immigrant expresses her gratitude to those who gave her sanctuary: "There is an underlying assumption that says white is right. There is a white panic every time one part of their world seems to be passing over to anyone else. But it's foolish to panic about it. So what if we do become a majority? What difference does it make? The empire strikes back really. There was this extraordinary assumption that white people could go and destroy peoples and it would have no consequence. It astounds me." "The making and remaking of any nation is not an easy task, and you need real guts and conviction to press on with it. This country has never appreciated the extraordinary contributions of immigrants... the need to make a new social contract between all the citizens and the state so that we know what we stand for". "Hundreds of thousands of true sons and daughters of this great nation stormed into London to sound off about how deprived they are and how they feel victims of prejudice so bad that, according to the Prince of Wales, they are even worse off than blacks and gays. How intolerable! My heart breaks at the thought of those poor, flushed apple cheeks of country Brits as they watch us blacks and those queers overtaking them in the gallop to privilege... Oh I hear you yelping all right... Are those who object to my thinking absolutely sure that the Countryside Alliance really would like multiracial Britain to invade its pure little village? Would they welcome a beautiful temple or mosque to stand with the small church spires if a substantial number of us did manage to sneak in by cheating estate agents?... Most shameful of all have been the recent outbursts over asylum centres in countryside locations." "Bit by bit, the very essence of Britishness is being transformed... I will... spend my life helping to make a more inclusive and dynamic new nation, instead of making do with the decaying remnants of a long gone past." "Xenophobia and imperial arrogance lurk inside most white Britons". "Until the people of this country can apologise for their imperial past, none of us can move on". "Jack Straw... has said something that one can almost agree with... On GMTV last Sunday, Mr Straw asserted that much of the disgraceful behaviour of English hooligans abroad came out of a distorted sense of patriotism bound up with the 'baggage of empire'." "Once, I'd have applauded anybody who publicly humiliated the English. Now, I feel more disquiet than wicked delight". "The numbers of refugees coming to Britain has been going down substantially since 1997." (As of 2005, during the previous six years, Britain had taken in an average of 157,000 known immigrants every year. This does not include around 350,000 foreign "students" or the illegal immigrants that we don't know about) "We must never underestimate the power of racism and xenophobia to influence resentful whites left behind in this bright, new, zappy digital age." And yet, the lady can admit to this: "Rightly or wrongly quite a lot of us (Asian women) believe that in order to fulfil our lives it just won't be possible if we marry an Asian man who however egalitarian before marriage very often becomes extremely sexist afterwards... More and more black and Asian and Chinese people will be marrying whites and each other. There is no stopping this, it seems to me." After this acknowledgement of the merit of "whites", she goes on to say: "I hope it makes this country become more comfortable with its hybridity as a national characteristic." In other words: "Bring on the melting-pot, sister. Let's get those Anglo-Saxon coils shuffled off!" And then there was this: "If I were a white pensioner living on a street in Bradford where Asian men, braggarts and brawlers, pimps and dealers, had taken over, of course I would reach out for the meanest part of me and hate the whole lot of them. The endless stories of Albanian and Turkish warring gangs; of black men and gun crimes; of hideously deformed mullahs who think they have the right to incite, in the house of God, young Muslim men to hate; and Algerians accused of making poisons and killing policemen, have created a new anger and hostility to our presence across British society". Finally, during the 4th of June, 2006, edition of Dateline London, Gavin Essler posed this question: "What's wrong with white guys, by the way?" To which Alibhai-Brown replied: "I don't like them. I want them to be the lost species in 100 years". The Brit-loathing Asian immigrant is pictured below alongside one of her books which features a black Queen on the front cover." Not commenting on her views but pointin out her "non-racism" So what have we got for your impeccable "experts"; a member of the House of Lords who klls people while using a mobile phone, and threatens to invade Parliament with "thousands of Muslims", a Labour MP who believes that speaking English should be a condition of entry into Britain; an Ex Home Secretary who, during his term of office, did nothing to alleviate the conditions in these areas under discussion, and so needs to cover his own arse by finding a scapegoat for his incompetence - oh, and an organisation that points out that making abuse a race issue is running the risk of putting the victims in even more danger than they already are. Any more for the Skylark, Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jun 11 - 10:48 AM "Jim, it is preposterous to say that Jasmin Allibhai-Brown is a racist" From her bio on Wiki. "On 25 August 2008, she (Jasmin Allibhai-Brown) appeared on Five's The Wright Stuff discussion programme. In a discussion about an employment issue relating to white men, Yasmin Alibhai Brown said "Take his advice. Don't apply. It would be great if you lot just went away; white, middle class men. We'd just walk in wouldn't we." When challenged by the host for the day, Richard Bacon, "Is that not a racist comment?" she replied "Of course" From the mouths of babes..... Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jun 11 - 09:17 AM "Jim, it is preposterous to say that Jasmin Allibhai-Brown is a racist" It is certainly not preposterous to say Jasmin Allibhai-Brown is capable of making a racist remark but that is not the point - nowhere has she or anybody claimed that "all male Pakistani Muslims" have "a culturally implanted tendency" - except you. You have done so seriously and in the context of attempting to prove a "massive" over-representation in a crime - and it is this which sets you apart from all your 'experts - it is damaging racist stereotyping, and it is your opinion. Unless you can explain why this 'cultural tendency' hasn't manifested itself throughout the whole of the Pakistani population (1.2 million) you have no case for 'cultural corruption' which is, in fact what you are claiming. Stop hiding behind others to make your point. Likewise, nobody but you has claimed a "massive" over-representation, only you, and this is what makes your opinion dishonest and IMO agenda-driven. "They gave their opinion, and I agreed with them. Why not" You have taken their opinions out of context and grossly exaggerated them, even to the point of misrepresenting them by removing crucial statements. In making the remarks you have, you have implicated the whole of the Pakistani population rather than the isolated examples you have provided. "Why not" You have embraced their statements where they accord with your own view and dismissed the opinions of others equally qualified, when they do not - when the statements of others become your opinions it is then your responsibilty to defend them rather than "somebody else told me, so they must be true. "It was you three who stated that to link culture was to claim a "cultural implant" No it was not - this is a blatent lie. Don put it forward as a summing up of how he saw your views - you reproducd his summing up and prefixed it with "I now believe" - don't you dare to try and pass it on to us - it is your stated opinion. "That means an over-rep of over 400%." Are you really claiming a %400 over-representation of Pakistanis in a population of 1.2 million? JIm Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Jun 11 - 07:44 AM Jim, it is preposterous to say that Jasmin Allibhai-Brown is a racist. If that is what your case stands on, you are lost. They gave their opinion, and I agreed with them. Why not? They are in a position to know and no-one but you three are arguing. That opinion was reported in all the quality press and media, BBC, Guardian, Observer, etc. All racist? It was you three who stated that to link culture was to claim a "cultural implant" Don's actual words. It is nonsense. It was a mistake to go along with you on that. I should never have agreed with you, only with experts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Jun 11 - 07:33 AM Never mind a couple of days. "The ethnicity of around half the offenders was not known but in the remainder a quarter of offenders were Asian and 38% were white." Asians make up just 6% of population. That means an over-rep of over 400%. If Asians means BPs, as in all the cases we have discussed, they are only 2% so the over-rep is up to 1200% Also, if the reason ethnicity was not reported in the other half of cases was racial sensitivity, it is many times higher. |
