BS: Muslim prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 05:11 PM

Lox,
"A theory that wilfully and exclusively discriminates on Racial/cultural grounds is a racist one."

But, supposing it was true.
It was true about Thugee culture.
I was not comparing Thugee culture to BP culture.
I was only showing you that sometimes culture is to blame.
It is not racist to say that.
But you seem to be saying that it is.
Please clarify.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 05:06 PM

"No theorising is permissable, or you are a racist.
Stop the debate, or be guilty of racism.
You must not even imagine such a thing."


Keith makes more shit up.

And continues to ignore my actual arguments.


Keith,

Hypothesizing is fine.

So is scrutiny of a hypothesis.

A theory that wilfully and exclusively discriminates on Racial/cultural grounds is a racist one.


And now for the lastes red herring ...

... keith wants to compare Moslems with Thuggees.

Thuggees were a religious sect devoted to human sacrifice.

Moslems are NOT a sect devoted to trafficking in underage girls.

End of comparison.



So keith has expanded his tactics.


1. Straw men
2. Ignoring opposing arguments
3. Introducing bizarre red herrings.


What next I wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 05:00 PM

And Greg, please don't call me Liz, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 04:58 PM

"You betcha, Liz- good to know that the only abusive husbands in the world are all of the Muslim faith."

Show me where I've said that, Greg?

Then tell me why you feel the need to twist things around in such a way...?

I am talking about Wafa Sultan speaking about what happens under Sharia Law and how that is perfectly acceptable in the eyes of the Islamic extremists.

IF a man behaved like that over here, he'd be in Court faster than you could say Boo! EVEN if he was Muslim...and probably onward into prison if justice were done..where he'd get pretty shoddy treatment from other prisoners..

It is not acceptable here to beat your wife senseless, or murder your sister or daughter because she dared to fall in love with a non-Muslim...

And thank God it's not acceptable here.

I'll leave you to spin........

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 04:43 PM

Lox, the peole of India are not all brutal murderers.
There was a cultural group in India, called Thugee, who were massively over represented in the murder of travellers.

The true explanation was solely on the base of race/culture and which deliberately excluded all other factors.
Their culture allowed them to kill.

Was that racist?
http://www.unexplainedstuff.com/Secret-Societies/The-Thuggee.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 04:41 PM

Cultural explanation....what terms of reference are you using for the word culture.

perhaps that is where the area of disagreement lies. The basic facts don't seem to be disputed = or at least not the main bone of contention.


Its hard to see what this argument is about. Apart from the fact that you don't trust each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 04:38 PM

You betcha, Liz- good to know that the only abusive husbands in the world are all of the Muslim faith.

That clears things up awfully.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 04:30 PM

"Lizzie?"

Wafa says it all so much better....

She's the author of 'A God Who Hates' and here she talks about her niece who, at the age of 28 took her own life, rather than have to endure the cruelty of her husband any longer. Of course, in Sharia law her husband was entitled to treat however he wanted.

She speaks about Muslims being victims of their own teachings and 'the problem is deeply rooted in Islamic doctrine'

Wafa Sultan on a woman's lot inside modern Islam and Sharia Law

Maybe he'll listen, maybe he won't...
I hope he does...

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 04:29 PM

"And Alan - by definition, a hypothesis which discriminates solely on the base of race/culture and which deliberately excludes all other factors is a racist hypothesis."

So, if we think that culture might be the explanation for the massive over representation, we must unthink it, because it is "racist."
No theorising is permissable, or you are a racist.
Stop the debate, or be guilty of racism.
You must not even imagine such a thing.

Quite liberal Lox.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 03:58 PM

"You have said that you do not accept that there is a distinct BP culture.
Is that it?"

Why not scroll up and find out?

It would make more sense than asking other people to do it for you.

And it would make more sense than making shit up.


"I do know theres nowt to be gained by suspecting vile motives and being horribly rude about other people you are debating with."


I was not debating with MtheGMm and his new nice as pie attitude belies the fact that he has never engaged with me on this forum except to either hurl abuse of some sort or to attempt to wind me up - this was the thread on which I decided I'd had enough.


The fact remains folks that NONE of my arguments has even been addressed, let alone rebutted.


When people start referring to them instead of whingeing and changing the subject, then they will BEGIN to look more credible.


And Alan - by definition, a hypothesis which discriminates solely on the base of race/culture and which deliberately excludes all other factors is a racist hypothesis.

I see no attempt to look for other explanations or to make any comparative assessment.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 03:40 PM

well what if he were not accepting a cultural cause. I can understand his reluctance - there really isn't a stereotypical Pakistani. I'm sure we all know people from that eytnic grouping who would never act in a bad way - like we are debating. however there is some weird stuff coming from the people holding forth in the mosques.

The week after the Rushdie story broke, there were little kids in the first and second year in the Derby Comp where i worked, saying that they wanted to kill Rushdie, and i don't mean one or two kids.

The older kids you could debate with, and they liked that. But young kids - you don't want to be seen to be disrespecting their cultural and community leaders.

I don't know what the answer is. I do know theres nowt to be gained by suspecting vile motives and being horribly rude about other people you are debating with.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 03:31 PM

I know.....and I suppose underneath all the bluster he also knows.

Somee people just dont have the guts to admit they are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 02:48 PM

I was just hoping that if no one else knows why you can not accept a cultural cause either, you might remind us.

You have said that you do not accept that there is a distinct BP culture.
Is that it?
You would not want to risk ridicule by saying that again.

Does anyone here know why Lox rejects a cultural explanation?
Dave, you have been more than fair in you comments on this debate.
Do you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 02:38 PM

Keith,

Why are you asking other people when you would get a more accurate account by scrolling up and reading it for yourself?

I note by the way that you have started reinserting the same words in my mouth as before.

Your debating tactic has reverted to making excuses why you shouldn't have to read your opponents post, and responding instead to points of view that you have made up.


I wonder why you would do that Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 02:11 PM

I find it hard to understand your reluctance.
I have restated my case many times, and will do it again if anyone asks.
Alan, you have been following the debate.
Are you clear why Lox is certain there can be no cultural cause?
Lizzie?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 01:37 PM

Keith,


As far as I was aware, you and I were engaged in a discussion.


I have read and engaged with each of your arguments, and I have scrutinized all your "evidence" and responded to it.

You on the other hand haven't even bothered to read, let alone understand my point of view.

Instead, all you have done is repeat the same mantra over and over again.


You profess to have a strong position in this debate, yet you don't even know what the debate is.


My posts are there to be read. Posting them again is unnecessary.

If you have failed to read them, that is your fault, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 01:20 PM

Lox, I am sorry that I missed or forgot your reasons.
It was a while ago now, and there are probably others who, like me, are unsure what they are.

Since it will be restating, you need only be very brief.
Something like, "I can be sure that there is no cultural dimension because ......"

And, " The most likely caause of the over reppresentation is ....."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Brian May
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 10:15 AM

I use Google News and accept that it is 'supplied' by links to different sources of 'News'.

When I clicked on the Sarkozy's statement link, it just happened to BE the Daily Mail, I presume that despite any spin (any news source applies), that Mr Sarkozy said that - since it was a public statement about multi-culturism in France.

I certainly don't habitually take any notice of ANY news source because most of what we read (anywhere) has be edited by someone with their own agenda.

I don't think that constitutes being naive.

I am angry with myself about being naive enough in earlier years to believe our leaders, political, industrial and religious, actually knew better than the rest of us about what was good and what was not.

They didn't/don't. Now THAT was naive.

As for people twisting words, well they would wouldn't they, otherwise they cannot really maintain their viewpoint - cognitive dissonance.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 10:03 AM

"but if the precondition is to accept we are all racists"

I have clarified that my issue is with racist hypotheses.

Again, I invite posters to respond to my actual arguments, not ones that they have made up for me.

So far there has been no attempt to do this, let alone a succesful rebuttal of any of my points.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 09:58 AM

With the best will in the world, everybody is making the best ayyempts thay can to respond to your posts, but if the precondition is to accept we are all racists and that our aims are motivated by right wing malice - well its a bit of a problem.

Having said that Brian, I can't believe you are that naive. Knowing the track record of the Daily mail for supporting every bit of right wing nastiness available to humankind, quoting them in such a debate is a bit like saying, 'I believe Mein Kampf hes some trenchant points to make on this subject.'

Buy it for the free dvds if you must, but don't read the bastard.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 09:12 AM

"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency""


Keith,

I have refuted this point inside and out.

The only reason you don't know this is because you haven't bothered to read my posts.

Either that or you have deliberately ignored them.

I suspect the latter.

But either way, you have yet to respond to a sngle one.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: 3refs
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 08:15 AM

Some Canadian insight!

On the John Oakly Show, Toronto 640am

Steve Rockwell, Toronto Imam at the Sheikh Deedat Centre. February 09, 2011

It ain't workin here either!!!

http://www.640toronto.com/HostsandShows/JohnOakley/Audio.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 07:50 AM

Don, WHY have you gone out of your way to say that, when I have gone out of my way to stress there are many, many good Muslims, but there ARE some very evil men within Islam who are controlling it, putting the fear of Allah into everyone..

WHY would anyone want to twist those words, and use them to make me, or others, look like racists???

I do not understand.

But I know one thing, it's that kind of mindless mindset that has brought us to this place we are now in, where so many are fearful of speaking out.

If you cannot believe the very words of the people from 'Former Muslims Unite', who are/were Muslims themselves, who are trying their hardest to wake the world up and GET DISCUSSION UNDER WAY, GET PEOPLE TO FINALLY TALK OPENLY ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING WITHIN ISLAM, then why would you believe anything I have to say.

You are completely free to believe what you want, but do NOT twist my words or leave out the very fact that I have stressed, over and again, that this problem is caused by specific fundamentally mental fundamentalists who are evil to the core of their very beings, imo.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM

Don, no one on this thread has claimed any of those things.

Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.

Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 06:54 AM

Now we've got the whole set of screamers joined in an adamantine block of pure mindless prejudice there doesn't seem much point in bothering, so I'll use my time more productively elsewhere.

Anyone asking them to consider alternatives is automatically on a loser.

There are NO alternatives for them. Muslims are all evil, oppressive, chauvinist, paedophile rapists, made so by their cultural upbringing. Do they, I wonder, ever listen to themselves?

My guess would be NO!!



Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 06:50 AM

And if we are now daring to speak out about this appalling situation, which so many Muslims themselves live in fear about talking about, then that's a bloody good thing!

Would you have had all talk against Nazi's silenced, in the name of racism?????

Those within Islam who are evil, damaging this once proud and peaceful religion have succeeded in creating a silence about it for way too long, through fear, Lox, fear and nothing else...


It is way past time to break their power, to break the fear and to let the sunlight flood back into Islam again, to rid it of the Darkness for once and for all...

Egypt, Tunisia...perhaps they are the first wheels in the cog to start a new way forward, where the people's will is finally listened to and the dictators of old are removed forever....Iran has already silenced the BBC programme, apparently, for fear of her people hearing what's happened in Egypt..Of course, they won't be able to keep it quiet for long, but let us hope the Iranian people are the next to march for freedom.....

We are living in historial times...and I hope, hopeful ones too.

Silence is, in this case, NOT golden, but utter cowardice and stubborn refusal to believe what is right under your nose.

The good Muslim people need help with this one...and the rest of us daring to finally stand up and say "ENOUGH OF THIS BULLSHIT!" with them will be of tremendous help to them all.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 06:39 AM

Excuse me, Lox, that is NOT the case at all.

I'm afraid though, whether you like it or not there ARE those who call themselves Muslims who are nothing more than evil men, prepared to do and spread as much evil around the world as they can, both to other Muslims, good ones too, and non-Muslims.

YOU are the one who needs to get your head together about this and admit it's happening...

As 999 said above, bullshit is bullshit....and for me that means however it's dressed up, or whatever religion or other 'cause' it dares to hide behind.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 06:29 AM

"Prejudice against Muslims has "passed the dinner-table test" and become socially acceptable in the UK"

That was how this thread Started.

The rest has been about Brian, Lizzie, Keith, MtheGM and AKE justifying why this is the fault of Moslems.

"It would appear that people who feel like I do are getting a voice, and on the increase."

Not on this thread.

Its exactly the same posters as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Brian May
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 06:09 AM

Well Lizzie that just about covers it. Well done - hell of a post.

However, I'll still be a racist, bigot for agreeing with you and nothing to do with the fact that I too lived amongst them as the only white man in 5 square miles of Bangladesh when not at work. I find this kind of oppression abhorrent and am amazed that people can't see it, but in fact it's simply that they won't.

I respect peaceful, loving people who contribute to the community, of whatever hue (but I can't because I'm a racist bigot)

Not difficult to see why white (YES, WHITE NON MUSLIM - just so the do-gooders are clear that I am making this distinction) girls are so attractive, the religion rather allows for that by the look of it, it's not as if they're valuable people being non-Muslim is it?

Up to the very recent past, we wouldn't even be able to discuss this without the Establishment coming down on us. I sense movement and in the correct direction, for once.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 04:30 AM

'Sharia for Dummies' taken from the 'Former Muslims Unite'

And in case some can't access that page via the link above, here it is:

>>>>>>>>Sharia for Dummies
By editor • on August 26, 2010
Print
Comment Feed
Stumble it
Digg it
del.icio.us
Facebook
by Nonie Darwish, Big Peace, August 26, 2010

Imam Feisal Abdel Rauf claims that the US constitution is Sharia compliant. Now let us examine below a few laws of Sharia to see if Imam Rauf is truthful or a fraud:


1- Jihad defined as "to war against non-Muslims to establish the religion" is the duty of every Muslim and Muslim head of state (Caliph). Muslim Caliphs who refuse jihad are in violation of Sharia and unfit to rule.

2- A Caliph can hold office through seizure of power meaning through force.

3- A Caliph is exempt from being charged with serious crimes such as murder, adultery, robbery, theft, drinking and in some cases of rape.

4- A percentage of Zakat (alms) must go towards jihad.

5- It is obligatory to obey the commands of the Caliph, even if he is unjust.

6- A caliph must be a Muslim, a non-slave and a male.

7- The Muslim public must remove the Caliph in one case, if he rejects Islam.

8- A Muslim who leaves Islam must be killed immediately.
9- A Muslim will be forgiven for murder of : 1) an apostasy 2) an adulterer 3) a highway robber. Making vigilante street justice and honor killing acceptable.

10- A Muslim will not get the death penalty if he kills a non-Muslim.

11- Sharia never abolished slavery and sexual slavery and highly regulates it. A master will not be punished for killing his slave.

12- Sharia dictates death by stoning, beheading, amputation of limbs, flogging and other forms of cruel and unusual punishments even for crimes of sin such as adultery.

13- Non-Muslims are not equal to Muslims and must comply to Sharia if they are to remain safe. They are forbidden to marry Muslim women, publicly display wine or pork, recite their scriptures or openly celebrate their religious holidays or funerals. They are forbidden from building new churches or building them higher than mosques. They may not enter a mosque without permission. A non-Muslim is no longer protected if he commits adultery with a Muslim woman or if he leads a Muslim away from Islam.

14- It is a crime for a non-Muslim to sell weapons to someone who will use them against Muslims. Non-Muslims cannot curse a Muslim, say anything derogatory about Allah, the Prophet, or Islam, or expose the weak points of Muslims. However, the opposite is not true for Muslims.

15- A non-Muslim cannot inherit from a Muslim.

16- Banks must be Sharia compliant and interest is not allowed.

17- No testimony in court is acceptable from people of low-level jobs, such as street sweepers or a bathhouse attendant. Women in such low level jobs such as professional funeral mourners cannot keep custody of their children in case of divorce.

18- A non-Muslim cannot rule even over a non-Muslims minority.

19- Homosexuality is punishable by death.

20- There is no age limit for marriage of girls under Sharia. The marriage contract can take place anytime after birth and consummated at age 8 or 9.

21- Rebelliousness on the part of the wife nullifies the husband's obligation to support her, gives him permission to beat her and keep her from leaving the home.

22- Divorce is only in the hands of the husband and is as easy as saying: "I divorce you" and becomes effective even if the husband did not intend it.

23- There is no community property between husband and wife and the husband's property does not automatically go to the wife after his death.

24- A woman inherits half what a man inherits.

25- A man has the right to have up to 4 wives and she has no right to divorce him even if he is polygamous.

26- The dowry is given in exchange for the woman's sexual organs.

27- A man is allowed to have sex with slave women and women captured in battle, and if the enslaved woman is married her marriage is annulled.

28- The testimony of a woman in court is half the value of a man.

29- A woman looses custody if she remarries.

30- To prove rape, a woman must have 4 male witnesses.

31- A rapist may only be required to pay the bride-money (dowry) without marrying the rape victim.

32- A Muslim woman must cover every inch of her body which is considered "Awrah," a sexual organ. Some schools of Sharia allow the face and some don't.

33- A Muslim man is forgiven if he kills his wife caught in the act of adultery. However, the opposite is not true for women since he "could be married to the woman he was caught with."

The above are clear cut laws in Islam decided by great Imams after years of examination and interpretation of the Quran, Hadith and Mohammed's life. Now let the learned Imam Rauf tell us what part of the above is compliant with the US constitution?<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Cool, huh?




You know, going back to when I worked in Harley Street in the late 70s...I one day got a call from Dr. Bilal, he was the head of The United Arab Emirates Embassy back then, which was just up the road from our office. He called me in to talk to him, to tell me that The Saudi Health Office were spreading rumours about my doctors, saying they were charging for patients they'd never seen. He wanted me to know what they were doing because he not only respected the surgeons I worked for, but he also respected me. He was disgusted by what was going on, how the Saudi's were behaving.

Dr. Bilal, you see, was one of the Good Men and True, who was honest and kind and had integrity. He did all in his power to counter balance those rumours for us, bless him.

So, if anyone here wants to call me racist, they can stick their narrow-minded little heads where the sun don't shine, because I ain't. I had many people in the Arab world who I thought the world of, and who it was a privilege to connect with during my time in those two jobs I had. But damn it, I feel so heart sorry for the Good Men and True who are being so kept down by the thugs of Islam at the moment..


Don't be prejudiced against kind, loving and wonderful Muslims, ever...but be wholly prejudiced against the disgusting men who think they have the right to terrify the whole world into becoming Muslim, so they can rule everyone in fear and hatred, rather than just those poor souls who are already trapped within the current System of Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 04:11 AM

OK, listen to this lady too. Here, Nonie tells how, when you're born your birth certificate is stamped 'Muslim'. You are not allowed to choose your religion, your way of life, you are literally 'committed to being a Muslim, whether you want it or not. And, you are not officially allowed to leave 'the state of Islam' either, because anyone who does is instantly at risk of being killed/murdered.

She tells how and why so many GOOD Muslims are frightened to speak out against the tyranny of modern day Islam, how 'former Muslims in America are in hiding, too frightened to speak out'...and how the Good and the Bad are moving out from the Middle East to all parts of the world.

You may find it hard to listen to....I hope you don't, because this woman is speaking the truth, and it's one that so many here seem to be in denial about. The longer you stay ostriches, the longer good and innocent people will have to suffer, both inside and outside Islam.

Nonie Darwish from 'Former Muslims Unite'

This is Part 1 of 3 videos which contains all 3 of the brave people from Former Muslims Unite who dared to speak out on US television.

It is these horror stories, which are true, sadly, whether folks in here like it or not, that cause 'Muslim Prejudice' around the world. That will not go away so long as ths evil tyrants of Islam are still in existence.

It is wrong to tar the good Muslims with the same brush as the evil ones, of course it is, but the evil is SO evil that it worries the shite out of many people around the world..and the silence about it, from the Muslim world itself, is deafening at times.

Perhaps, after watching these videos people may start to understand WHY so many good people keep their mouths shut and their eyes averted...

This evil, to me, comes from the same place as the Nazis, who ruled by fear and evil. Not all Germans were bad, of course they weren't...and so many would have been horrified at what was being done in their name...but sadly the evil won over the goodness of the German people, such was the power of that evil and the way it crept into the lives of every person, threatening every man, woman and child.

Speaking out about Islam should NOT be a crime, whether it comes from Muslims or Non-Muslims.

I cannot get my head around men who pour acid onto the faces of little girls who dare to go to school, purely to keep women from becoming educated.....I cannot get my head around anyone who would say that speaking out against that kind of perverted evil is remotely racist.

Wafa talks of how she receives death threats every day, how they know where her children are, how they are going to behead her....These guys are nuts...and it's not just the men because some women too have been trained to hate, to bully, to inform.....Every single day Wafa and other good Muslims live with the fear that this day may be their last, or the last for their children.

What is going on in the name of Allah is total evil and vile crap..and quite frankly the whole damned world should unite alongside every good Muslim on the planet to rid Islam of these nutcases once and for all, because if we don't, things are going to get worse.

Muslim law is being constantly pushed onto other countries..that is wholly wrong and should be fought against at every turn. Listen to Wafa and Nonie talking about it on the video, if you don't believe me...it's in Part 2 of the second link above.


Former Muslims Unite - Website

We should also unite against all tyrants within all religions who dare to use the name of God for their perverted wickedness.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 07:52 PM

"Don, you cut the next line from my post you just quoted.
It was,
"If it did give rise to just a slight predisposition, then only a tiny minority would succumb.
And that is exactly what is found."""

I cut the line because it is irrelevant to the point at issue in my conversation with DeG, in which he said ""I have not heard Keith say that all Pakistanis (of whetever nationality) are child molesters."".

When asked the question ""their culture inspires a slight predisposition to the grooming and abuse of underage girls. Can you confirm that that is your opinion of British Pakistanis?"", you replied ""It is my opinion that it is a reasonable suggestion.
The over representation is a fact that requires an explanation.
Something is predisposing them, and it is more likely to be something sexual in the culture than your alternative list. (wild generalisations?)"".

However small the number of those who succumb to the temptation, and however slight that tendency may be, it does not alter the fact that you believe that all male Pakstani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency toward paedophile rape.

Your obdurate refusal to give more cautious and balanced suggestions the slightest consideration merely accentuates the degree of prejudice in your view of this section of Society.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 06:53 PM

You elevate yourself somewhat when you claim you are "challenging paradigms" (what an ugly expression anyway). You are doing no such thing. You are spouting intolerance and race hatred. I particularly don't like Muslims coming over here and acting like many of them do isn't challenging paradigms. It's no more than a shameful display of ignorance and bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Brian May
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 02:45 PM

As a racist and an ignorant bigot (apparently), what's worse is quoting from the Daily Mail (by the way I stopped buying newspapers over 20 years ago).

I didn't for a second state the Mail as an authoritative source, but such a statement from the French leader should be a cinch to check.

This thread has evolved into one about the merits of Islam . . . NO, not quite.

It is a thread addressing many of us's abhorrence of violence done (in this case by Muslims) to PEOPLE, but women in particular.

As has been said, Islam is a peaceful religion, as is Christianity et al. But vicious, manipulative people usurp them for their own ends. The are all abhorrent, that level of self interest usually turns out that way. Many/most politicians too stray down this kind of road, perhaps absolute power does corrupt absolutely.

Above, I stated that I did not approve of violence of any kind (including the abusive people here). But I'll keep plugging, because there are more people NOW echoing the point I tried to make earlier.

I find it amusing to see how vicious and vehement the do-gooders get when their paradigms are challenged. Do they spend too much time around like-minded people?

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible" seems to apply here.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 02:18 PM

Well said, 999. That's it, *exactly*, in a nutshell.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 02:16 PM

Blue clickies continue to defeat me. The url below depicts a n amazing young Muslim woman at the protest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwIY6ivf70A&feature=email

Women are discriminated against in most of the world, whatever religion or non-religion. My sons won't. It is not easy to deliberately raise sons who recognize and refuse to participate in discrimination, who respect woman and treat them as equals. The major religions seem to have been founded by men. The psychology of why men have such a perceived need for power .....

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 02:11 PM

Reading the Koran: I have done so in English translation. Again, it has good philosophy and I`m sure good intentions, as does the Bible. However, if the practitioners themselves have it interpreted by some real nasty sonuvabitch, the book doesn`t really accomplish what it set out to do. Just what the `leaders` have set out to do. Kinda like the Crusades--or Joe McCarthy in the USA, let`s kill a commie for Christ, or kill a ______________ for Allah. The various preversions in some churches is disgusting. But until people start calling bullshit bullshit, it will continue. It ain`t the books, it`s the interpreters. Very sad situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 02:00 PM

Oh..and Al, could I just ask you to call me Lizzie in future. I'm sorry to sound pedantic, but it's just a personal thing, that's all.

Thank you x

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 01:57 PM

Tell me this, because I don't understand...

WHY is it perfectly acceptable to shout out loud about the appalling behaviour of paedeophilic priests in the Catholic Church, and yet apparently no-one is allowed to mention the appalling treatment and view of women from many within the 'church of Islam'..?

Is it that those men who cry out about paedeophile priests are also misogynists, and therefore care not one jot about what many women within Islam have to suffer on a daily basis????

Tell me, have any of you read 'The Prince & I' or 'Not Without My Daughter'? Both books deal with the appalling treatment of women, written by those with firsthand knowledge of how they were treated...

There are those within the once beautiful religion of Islam who are, imo, quite frankly evil. I, unlike many others in here, am not afraid to say it.

Even Yusuf Islam himself has said things along a similar line, telling the Mullahs that the world sees much wrong with Islam at present, and therefore they have to change it for the better, speak out...

I'm sorry, but all this woollywoosssss thinking has opened the gates for tyrants and bullies in the most unbelievable manner you could imagine.

I am NOT saying that all Muslims are bad, gee whizz, of COURSE I'm not, but I am saying that there is a vast element who now use Allah's name in the name of hate, not love...in the name of Jihad, not Peace...

Wafa Sultan knows far better than any man or woman here on Mudcat....

I would also take this opportunity to say that there are also, imo, many within the Jewish religion who are using it for hatred and wicked things these days too.

ALL of them, Catholic Church too, need to have the Good Men and True speak out for Peace, for Love, for God, for Tolerance, for Women...because Holy Shite is going to happen if they keep quiet for much longer...

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 10:36 AM

"As this thread has turned (predictably) into a discussion on the pros and cons of Islam,"

The object of discussion for the last couple of weeks has been about whether the abuse of young girls is a "CON" of one particular culture within Islam.

There seems little doubt that it is, albeit that only a small minority are involved.

The comments that follow your video suggest that a murderous intolerance is often a con of Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 09:22 AM

Lox, did you mean to suggest that Lizzie and Briam were lying?
And Hillary Willmer, Jasmin Alibhai-Brown, Lord Ahmed, Anne Cryer, Jack Straw and those senior police officers?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:59 PM

*Yawn* It doesn't take religion to discriminate against women. And I'm an atheist saying that. We need a lot more honesty and a lot less hidden tendentiousness (of the type shown by Cameron this week) when we discuss minority groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 08:55 PM

As this thread has turned (predictably) into a discussion on the pros and cons of Islam, I thought I would share something both relevant and beautiful.

I hope you are lucky enough to be able to enjoy it.

Reading the Koran

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 05:15 PM

The religion discriminates against women. Many religions do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 05:09 PM

Wafa Sultan speaking out about the bad side of Islam....

Maybe you guys who are in total denial about so much will finally open your eyes, your ears and your hearts and LISTEN to this woman....a woman who has DARED to stand up against the tyrants and bullies who rule Islam to their own ends these days and say "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!"

She is incredibly brave....I hope she survives.

Wafa Sultan talking from her heart about what is wrong with Islam

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 04:46 PM

I too, sense a shift in public opinion regarding implimentation of the "Human rights act".

People are saying, what a couple of years ago was "unsayable"
They have opened their eyes and just discovered that the Emperor really has nothing on.

How stupidly we can behave, when our emotions start to rule our heads.

We must always debate everything, every issue, every attack on our hard won freedoms, every incursion into our lives by vested interests and most importantly we should never allow ourselves to be bullied into silence.....they always try that one and this thread is no exception.
Those who maintain that there is no cultural element at work in the crimes against the very young girls, or in the treatment of women, homosexuals and "infidels" have offered up not a shred of evidence to support their contention.....they have simply resorted to abuse and name calling

In contrast, Keith has provided the views of people who are in a position to be fully aware of the facts.

The evidence from the courts supports the views held by these people, and the most alarming point, which is made repeatedly, is that protection agencies and even the police are being obstructed by
"Human rights legislation" from fully and openly investigating these crimes.

Orwellian "liberalism" has had its day.....thank fuck! Look to Europe and Scandinavia to see the future, the backlash has begun, the worst stupidities and excesses will be swept away, common sense will prevail......but just as we railed against the stupidity of "liberal fundamentalism", we must guard against the pendulum swinging too far.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 04:28 PM

Thanks for the explaination, Alan. Probably better put that what I am about to say!

In my opinion, anyone who would groom and then abuse a young girl certainly needs putting straight. That may include punishment - indeed I hope it would have an element of that - but it should involve help as well. I am not of the Victorian 'hang 'em' brigade nor of the Liberal 'let them do what they want' crew. Just what is wrong with punishing perpetrators and also helping them to not do it again? Th etwo are not mutualy exclusive.

Even if, in some instances, the only way we cam help them not do it again is by giving a suspended sentance. Suspended about six feet off the floor... Seriously though - I believe most people can be helped. If they then refuse help or continue their previous ways then, fair enough, shoot the bastards.

But, this has bugger all to do with the point in question. I am just halfway down my second bottle...

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 04:08 PM

the above poster was me

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 04:07 PM

'Why would you want to help the perpetrators?'

Well if a tenth of what you're saying is right, they need help and plenty of it to adjust to living in our sort of society. The other option is sticking them all in the clink, which isn't really feasible.

What weakens the other side of rthe debate is ofcourse the endless persoanl abuse - now everyone is who disagress, or has had different thoughts and experiences is a brainless vicious bigot.

Liz is not a vicious brainless bigot. I have read her posts for years. I would not fantasise about a vicious brainless bigot.

This Brian May. i don't think he's the one out of Queen. I don't trust anyone who quotes the Daily mail as authoritative. he's well to the right of me politically. personally, Cameron playing the race card depresses the bollocks off me.

Keith says he's a Labour supporter. But he's obviously a bit like me in that I knew when Hattersly lost out to Kinnock in the 80's( so hot on the heels of Michael Foots humiliation) , the left wing of that party were politically unreachable and unelectable within our lifetimes. Consequently the stuff he comes out with ruffles the feathers of left wingers, sinn feinners and other idealists. The certainty with which he states a view that is essentially compromised is a reflection of his personality. he seems proud of views that I share, but i find I have no pride in holding.

If you find this company vicious, bigotted and brainless - just who do you debate with - yourself presumably. No wonder , you're unused to hearing differing opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Brian May
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 02:45 PM

Why would you want to help the perpetrators?

I thought that was what this country had been doing for the last xx years. Who exactly is being vicious, perhaps the perpetrators David wishes to help? Or do I misquote?

It would appear that people who feel like I do are getting a voice, and on the increase.

Does that make us all bigots, I thought I'd been particularly straightforward - unless of course you are referring to others unnamed?