BS: Muslim prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 08:17 AM

It would be great to know everything.
What we have got is the testimony of the raped children as related to Wilmer, Cryer and Straw, the police, and to the Sikh and Hindu representatives.

We know Wilmer dealt with 400 families. We do not know how many for Straw and Cryer and the others, but sufficient to move them to speak out on this most sensitive subject.
That is why I have just referred to many hundreds.
I think that is a significant number of raped children.

In the news this week, the police are crowing about breaking an international paedophile ring.
They say it is the biggest in the world.
Just 260 abused kids worldwide.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:26 AM

Mohammed Shafiq is referring to the 50 out of 56 men convicted for trafficking and rape.

As he has done no research on street grooming, he couldn't have known that 50 out of 56 was only a select snapshot.

We know this because "the dando institute", "barnardos" and "Safe and Sound Derby", have clarified this specific point and they are the best informed and most authouritative voices on this issue.

Shafiqs comments reveal nothing more than his personal reaction to the Times allegations.

Being a Pakistani does not qualify him to make generalized psychological diagnoses any more than being British qualifies you to make general psychological diagnosses about British people.


But this is all still a red herring as the evidence you have stated you are relying on only exists in your imagination as you have never seen it so you have No idea what it is ... and all of the actual authouritative evidence flatly contradicts you.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:07 AM

I take it you couldn't find any links to your "hundreds" of imaginary "testimonies" eh keith?


Well try and wrap your head around this.


Some murderers use poison, others use a gun.

Those are merely the MEANS by which they commit a horrendous crime.

Some Paedophiles groom their victims online, others do it on the street.

The horrendous crime is paedophilia.

To suggest that how they are grooomed is somehow a comparable crime to the actual rapes is farcical in the extreme.

Keiths position is not just unsubstantiated, it is insulting to the children he claims to care so very much about.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 07:05 AM

From Lox's link.
And there is one controversial factor that many of the experts in the field are often not happy to discuss freely. The race of the abusers.

The string of convictions in cities such as Rotherham, Preston, Blackburn, Rochdale and now Derby have more often than not involved Asian men, specifically men of Pakistani origin, and mainly Muslim.

Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, a Muslim youth organisation, became the first community leader to speak out in a BBC interview two years ago.

He is not afraid of raising the issue.

"Although there have been some cases of white men being involved in this sexual exploitation of young girls, most of the perpetrators are Muslim.

He stresses these are not religiously-motivated offences but crimes carried out by men for "their own depraved sexual gratification".

"These people think that white girls have fewer morals and are less valuable than our girls."

Another commentator, Manzoor Moghul, chairman of the Muslim Forum, agrees.

"Offenders are under the misapprehension white girls are easy prey. The way they dress, their culture, makes them easy pickings," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:58 AM

You are a rubbish reader ...

here it is again ...

"Sheila Taylor runs Safe and Sound Derby, a group that was instrumental in persuading girls to give evidence against Siddique and Liaqat."

""This model of street-grooming is going on in many places. It is just that the recent spate of prosecutions against Asian men in the north of England and Midlands makes it look like it is concentrated in these communities," she said."


Besides which, Street Grooming is not a seperate crime type, it is just the means by which these child abusers trapped their victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:46 AM

Child abuse is ubiquitous.
On-street grooming by gangs has not yet been shown to be.
That is the crime I have been discussing.
Let us just consider one crime at a time.

Engage deals with all types of abuse.
Their biggest case as of last October was a dance teacher abusing his pupils.
They also deal with familial abuse, internet grooming and solitary playground prowling perverts.
That is where the irrelevant 80% comes from.
The only evidence so far produced on street grooming by groups is from the Midlands and the North, and is all BPs.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:40 AM

"Sheila Taylor runs Safe and Sound Derby, a group that was instrumental in persuading girls to give evidence against Siddique and Liaqat."

""This model of street-grooming is going on in many places. It is just that the recent spate of prosecutions against Asian men in the north of England and Midlands makes it look like it is concentrated in these communities," she said."

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:25 AM

Some comments from the new head of Barnardos - Anne Marie Carrie.

(Confirming all the other evidence that flatly contradicts Keith)

"Barnardo's knows that sexual exploitation is going on in every town and city in the UK and child victims continue to go unidentified as tell-tale signs are overlooked due to a lack of awareness that stretches from frontline children's services to the corridors of Whitehall."

Also:

"Although I thoroughly welcome the recent attention around the issue, the children at the heart of this crime have been forgotten as discussion has focused on the ethnicity of perpetrators in high-profile cases,"

And from the same Article:

"Barnardo's worked with more than 1,000 sexually exploited girls and boys last year, but that number was "likely to be the tip of the iceberg", the charity said."

The Article

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:11 AM

From Keith's link.


"Thus no official data exists on the ethnic or religious background of perpetrators of this form of child abuse, and local charities have stated publicly that they do not consider it a race issue. But it is worth noting that, when asked by the Times to collate its recent work according to ethnicity, Engage – based in Blackburn and one of the largest multi-agency organisations working on this issue – found that in the past year that 80% of offenders were white."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:11 AM

Unbelievable Keith.


Barnardos is the single most respected and important INDEPENDENT child protection organization in the country, who exist solely to identify threats to children and protect them.


They have more front line experience of dealing with child abuse on a daily basis than all other organizations put together and are without a doubt the best informed people in Britain when it comes to who abuses children and where, because they get called to investigate it, help prosecute it and rehabilitate abused children everywhere that it occurs.


But in Keiths mind, the views of two politicians and a journalist are agenda free, while Barnardos are motivated by an ideological (PC) bias.


He says:

"Until then I am going to believe the actual child victims of this wicked crime."

OK - so you intend to deliberately ignore the growing mountain of evidence that flatly contradicts you and rely solely on the testimony of abused children to establish the truth .... well thats fine ...

... but so far you've only posted testimony from ONE child keith.

And her abuser is in Jail.

Where is the testimony of your ALLEGED Hundreds ...

... Helen Wilmer merely Reported allegations ...

Well I suppose in the absence of testtimony, allegations will have to do.


... But hang on ... where are you hundreds of allegations keith?


Haven't you found that evidence yet?


So it only exists in your mind?


Blimey ... isn't it amazing how Keiths imaginary evidence stands up so much better than the combined testimony of Britains biggest child protection charity and the authors of the only academic study into the subject, both of whom FLATLY and EXPLICITLY contradict him.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 03:52 AM

Mike
Really not got time for this as we're off in an hour or so.
Up to the point where you indicated it a few posts ago "I must add that, with my racial origins of which you are quite aware, " I really was not aware of your racial origins.
It seems to me that the events of the 20th century, especially those which happened (just) within my lifetime, should have taught us the lesson that if you take a lie, a rumour, an isolated occurence, and repeat it again and again and again and again..... pretty soon it will stick, will grow and will attach itself to all around, until it becomes not just a Notting Hill incident, or Brixton, or London's East End.... or wherever, but a nigger, or Jewish, or Pakie one.
This is exactly what Keith has done here.
Nobody is denying that there are criminals and perverts in the British Pakistani communities, as there are in any other British community (a fact you have chosen not to comment on in your attempts to debunk my 'thrusts' suggestion).
Keith has finally said, after much pressure, "as far as we know in just these Northern towns and cities", but in the meantime he has made this one of the biggest threads on this forum, containing all the racist bile (5 pages of it) I gathered together (we still don't know whether he claims they are all the (unspecified) cities or just small districts within those cities). In the intervening period he has attempted to implicate not just those few involved in the incidents but the British Pakistani population and their culture as a job lot.
Keith has more than proved his sectarian pedigree in the past with his enthusiastic support for violent and abusive demonstrations of force in Northern Ireland (see the Have a Good 12th of July thread), and here continues his theme, this time with Pakistanis, and, as with Northern Ireland, using selective and distorted evidence.
Anyway, must be off - good luck with your appeal for support, "how does anyone else perceive the "thrust" of Jim's arguments, I wonder?"
Sorry I won't be here during the next couple of days give you mine (or not, as the case may be).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:44 AM

Link to Guardian piece quoted by 999
Reaf it all, and remember the bits not in quotes are not quotes.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/07/grooming-racialising-crime-tradition

I find no source for the 80% figure attributed to Engage.
Leeds Telegraph says,"Voluntary organisation CROP teamed up with Operation Engage team as it works to end the sexual exploitation of children and young people by pimps and traffickers.

Vulnerable parents are helped by the group once a referral has been made to the Engage team."

CROP is Wilmer's group.
All perpetrators BPs.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:21 AM

999, The Times published the Dando study into the convictions.
Your quote is from the dear old LeftLib Guardian.
Straw, Cryer, Wilmer, and the senior police officers all agree that it has been going on for about 12 years and all separately say it is just BPs doing it.

Even if true that only BPs do it, there can never be evidence of that, just an absence of evidence of others doing it.
There is a total lack of that so far, but I am prepared to be convinced if it ever happens.

Narey speaks for Barnados who run care homes.
Many of the victims were in care, no doubt in his care.

When he said, "'Anecdotally, as far back as the mid-90s, local agencies have been aware of the participation of ethnic minority men in some cases of serial abuse. " that included Barnados.

He is one of the PC brigade who refused to listen to the child rape victims for more than a decade, and did nothing about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 01:33 AM

Since, Jim, your perceived "thrusts" of arguments are, as you have previously asserted, enough for you to base animadversions and denunciations on, I will simply respond to your recent posts in contradiction of me and others, that I perceive their "thrust" to be evasive and/or nonsensical, and quite peculiarly unconvincing.

Just read back over them. Do you even find any true conviction in their "thrust" yourself? Do you truly feel I should find my arguments in any way demolished by their "thrust"?

A bit *desperate* is the adjective I would choose myself, if asked to summarise their "thrust" in one word.

Leaving out all those [you all know who they are] who have been associated with Jim's comments in recent posts ~~ how does anyone else perceive the "thrust" of Jim's arguments, I wonder? In particular, isn't the "thrust" of his evocation of Xtian Fundamentalism as also leading sometimes to assassination an example of that invariably pathetic "well then what about ..." argument, which is inevitably demonstrably more evasive than persuasive in its "thrust", in that it simply confirms the allegation that has been made and thinks to refute it by simply providing further examples of the abuse being adversely criticised?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:10 AM

Keith,

My last post was a quotation from a newspaper in England. You'd best write the Times and tell them their investigation doesn't jibe with your conclusions. Remember, when the only tool ya have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 10:55 PM

Burning Korans thread.
Me, 10th Sept. 2010
Do not pretend to believe I meant that all moslems will kill.
I assert that some will, as they did over cartoons in an obscure Danish newspaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 10:37 PM

Jim,
"You have single handedly turned a thread that was about Muslim prejudice into an open attack on British Pakistanis;"

Not true. I stuck with the original topic for two days longer than Lox.

"you have distorted your 'evidence' by tampering with it and you have persistently tried to prove that Muslims/British Pakistanis should be treated with distrust and are deserving of prejudice."

I have refuted and rebutted that.
It is a lie.

You want 'obsession' - count your own postings - a man with a mission, if I ever saw one.

As I said, I joined in RESPONSE to Lox and others.
Every time you people denied that there was an issue, I responded with more evidence.
Responsive not proactive.
It was the denials that were obsessive.
IT CAN'T BE TRUE. IT JUST CAN'T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 10:28 PM

999,
"'Anecdotally, as far back as the mid-90s, local agencies have been aware of the participation of ethnic minority men in some cases of serial abuse."

This would be the anecdotes of many hundreds of groomed and raped children describing their rapists.

"But what has not emerged is any consistent evidence to suggest that Pakistani Muslim men are uniquely and disproportionately involved in these crimes,"

There could never be such evidence! What could it be?
There could only be evidence that they were NOT disproportionately involved.
No one has yet produced evidence of significant numbers of non BPs doing it.

""This is not just about Pakistani men, and not just about Asian men. And it is happening all over the country."' "

If this is true, when is anyone going to provide some examples?

Until then I am going to believe the actual child victims of this wicked crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 09:26 PM

"I can't, I fear, fault his assertion on the Koran Burning thread"
You can't find fault with the statement that they (Muslims) will kill people - oh dear.
In that case, so will Christians - especially those who carry out legally sanctioned operations on women who wish to terminate pregnancies.
Some Christain fundamentalist fanatics will, as will some fundamentalist Muslim fanatics, but put in the terms he has persistentlt done throughoutthis thread makes all Christians and Muslims - especially British Pakistanis, potential fanatical killers, paedophiles and racists (including our local chemist, Mr Patel and my friend from Conway Hall, Ali Reza - whew - didn't I have a close call spending time in their company!
As for Keith's racism - I have answered it and you have failed to respond - his selecting (editing) and posting to the extent he haspaints a picture of a debased and corrupt community - your 'praising him with faint damns', particularly in relation to his tampered evidence, puts you in the same bracket I'm afraid.
"I have painted no deplorable picture."
Yes you have Keith - I scanned down five pages worth.
"as far as we know in just these Northern towns and cities."
An answer at last - having taken so long to respond, can we now assume it to be a climbdown?   
I'll leave you both to your cess pit and head for the clean air of Dublin for a few days.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 06:50 PM

···And you still haven't responded to:
"Virtually all the examples Keith has shephered together on this thread are subjective opinions based on extremely limited experiences; we have no idea how subjective and how limited because he has chosen to keep it that way by refusing to say whether he believes the deplorable picture he paints of Paskistani life in Britain is local, town-based, city-based or national."
Or given a satisfactory explanation why it was necessary to tamper with your 'evidence'
Or answered any of Don's questions.···   
Jim Carroll ==
,,,,,,
& you, Jim, have not responded to any of the points I made at 04.48 PM, pointing out the foolishness of your expecting me to demonstrate a negative ~ a challenge to show where Keith wasn't being racist, of all concepts unworthy of your intelligence ~, and demanding a demonstration of where he was: I can't, I fear, fault his assertion on the Koran Burning thread ~ please be more explicit as to what you find wrong with it ~ or have you never heard of BinLaden & alQaeda, who do indeed have the habit of responding to such 'insults' with fatal results; or did Rushdie's Japanese publisher die of old age, e.g.? He has also reiterated my point that his comments on this thread [which just happens to be where we are] are directed only to the small but significant number of specific instances with which we are concerned; & neither you nor Don has responded to point out where I am mistaken in saying that it is you, not he, who are counterproductively widening the topic we are discussing.

It is still a worrying manifestation, in particular, in being so thoroughly A-TYPICAL of Pakistani law-abiding and societally responsible practice in general, & as such gives cause for concern & need for explanation. Can you guys really not see this? Or that some aspects of their very idiosyncratic-to-themselves customs & expectations with regard to marriage might at least be worth contemplating in the search for this. Please note that I have sedulously avoided using the word "culture" here, as inappropriate and emotionally loaded; so oblige me by not attempting to use it as a stick to beat me with.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 06:32 PM

Well Blimey,

I should call 999 more often.

Looks like Barnardos are echoing the sentiments and conclsions of the dando institute research.

"But what has not emerged is any consistent evidence to suggest that Pakistani Muslim men are uniquely and disproportionately involved in these crimes, nor that they are preying on white girls because they believe them to be legitimate sexual quarry, as is now being suggested."

Not being politicians with an agenda, but being Britains foremost child welfare agency whose sole concern is to identify threats to children and to try and offer protection, their interpretation is infinitely more valuable and better informed than that of Straw, cryer, Ahmed, or the self Serving Alibhai Brown put together.

Game Over.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 06:22 PM

Lox,
"Can you explain the relevance of my nationality? I ask as you have brought it up twice?"

Only that Ireland, like Kent and Hertford, are very remote from these events.
I would not express an opinion.
I rely on the testimony of those intimately involved.

Jim,
"refusing to say whether he believes the deplorable picture he paints of Paskistani life in Britain is local, town-based, city-based or national."

I have painted no deplorable picture.
My opinion and experience is as yours, of a peacable, industrious and law abiding people.
I keep telling you all that it is only a tiny minority who are making this a crime of mainly BPs, as far as we know in just these Northern towns and cities.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 05:08 PM

Ans another pearl of Keith's wisdom on Moslem culture from the 'Burning Korans thread
"Other religions would just shrug off such an insult. They will kill people. That is the real problem."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 05:00 PM

From the www.

'Anecdotally, as far back as the mid-90s, local agencies have been aware of the participation of ethnic minority men in some cases of serial abuse. But what has not emerged is any consistent evidence to suggest that Pakistani Muslim men are uniquely and disproportionately involved in these crimes, nor that they are preying on white girls because they believe them to be legitimate sexual quarry, as is now being suggested.

The Times investigation is based around 56 men convicted in the Midlands and north of England since 1997, 50 from Muslim backgrounds. Granted, such prosecutions are notoriously difficult to sustain, but, nonetheless, this is a small sample used to evidence the "tidal wave" of offending referred to by unnamed police sources. Martin Narey, the chief executive of Barnardo's, which has run projects in the areas concerned for many years, tells me that, while he is pleased to see open discussion of child sexual exploitation, he worries that "decent Pakistani men will now be looked at as potential child abusers". He insists: "This is not just about Pakistani men, and not just about Asian men. And it is happening all over the country."'

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:59 PM

"Why does it always have to be about me?"
You have single handedly turned a thread that was about Muslim prejudice into an open attack on British Pakistanis; you have distorted your 'evidence' by tampering with it and you have persistently tried to prove that Muslims/British Pakistanis should be treated with distrust and are deserving of prejudice.
Without counting, I would guess that your postings make up around half of those to this thread. That is why it has become about you - you have worked extremely hard to make it so. You want 'obsession' - count your own postings - a man with a mission, if I ever saw one.
And you still haven't responded to:
"Virtually all the examples Keith has shephered together on this thread are subjective opinions based on extremely limited experiences; we have no idea how subjective and how limited because he has chosen to keep it that way by refusing to say whether he believes the deplorable picture he paints of Paskistani life in Britain is local, town-based, city-based or national."
Or given a satisfactory explanation why it was necessary to tamper with your 'evidence'
Or answered any of Don's questions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:48 PM

··· '"In particular I can see no demands for repatriation"
There are none here' ···

Quite: thank you, Jim.
,,,,,,,

~~~"the enthusiasm verging on glee with which he presented it, qualifies it for a racist contribution the BNP would be proud to admit to - you show me where it isn't".~~~

You know better than to ask for a demonstration of a negative, Jim.

So come on; put your intellect where your typing-finger is, & — for the I·have·lost·count·of·how·manyeth·time — show me where it IS!


~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:37 PM

There is no crime of "street grooming" in statute or in common law.

When You posted this, you also posted the clarification tht street grooming is Merely the means by which abusers and traffickers trap their victims.

So the crime isn't street grroming, the crimes are trafficking and sexual abuse.


The Dando report confirms that the data they retrieved has not changed this reality.

Grooming, including Street grooming, remains merely the means by which victims are snared.

The authors clarify that the data does not indicate a new crime type, and they do so because they are concerned about people like you who are generalizing it into an entire crime type.

What it indicates is indicates a variation on a long established crime type.

A crime type in which Pakistanis are not overrepresented.

You are desperate to twist their words so they have another meaning, but despite working hard to do so you have failed as their meaning and intent are so clear and unambiguous.

Their intent is to confront misrepresentations of the data, by which they were "surprised" (remember?) by people trying to assert that Pakistani men are over-represented in a horrendous crime type practically unique to them.

ie, their intent was to confront people like YOU.


PS keith,

Can you explain the relevance of my nationality? I ask as you have brought it up twice?

(Since you are not racist I am sure you will have no difficulty explaining the relevance of my being from Ireland)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:35 PM

Lox, this is how your guardian piece described it.

Authors of the first independent academic analysis looking at "on-street grooming", where young girls, spotted outside, including at the school gates, have become targets,....

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:08 PM

"The study looked at actual convictions for this crime type (that does not exist.)"

The convictions were for trafficking sex slaves. No one was convicted for "street grooming"

Spin it how you want, the verifiable research contradicts you.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:07 PM

"The study looked at actual convictions for this crime type (that does not exist.)"

The convictions were for trafficking sex slaves. No one was convicted for "street grooming"

Spin it how you want, the verifiable research contradicts you.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:05 PM

"In particular I can see no demands for repatriation"
There are none here, but plenty out there in the big wide world - certainly the one I occuied in my UK days.
I have already mentioned the deep-seated racism that exists in the UK, in England in particular - challenged ony by Keith.
"I must add that, with my racial origins of which you are quite aware, I find your use of the phrase "final solution" with all its overtones peculiarly distatsteful."
It was well within my lifetime that JP Harry Watton was calling for Travellers who refused to conform to be exterminated.
Not forgetting our/your own Enoch Powell's 'Rivers of Blood'.
I failed to get a response from either you or Keith when I mentioned the Stephen Lawrence killing and the fact that the killers remain free thanks to institutional racism.
Not in the same league as the holocaust, I'll grant you, but great oaks.... etc.
To repeat; the sheer volume and nature of Keith's postings (not to mention with the enthusiasm verging on glee with which he presented it, qualifies it for a racist contribution the BNP would be proud to admit to - you show me where it isn't.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 03:54 PM

Jim, could you not have picked the one most extreme example of what you consider to be my racism?

No one will read it all, far less if I responded to it all..
Taking one at random,
"BPs are predisposed to marry cousins, resulting in very high child and infant mortality."

This is factually true. I can give you chapter and verse from a BBC piece I linked to.
How can it be said to be racist?????

The biggest question is, why can't we just debate the issue?
Why does it always have to be about me?
It seems a little obsessive Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM

===but the whole thrust of Keith's approach gives us a decadent community who should all be marched to the nearest airport forthwith and shipped back to whence they came (not sure what you do about the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation who were born in Britain and have no claim to their ancestral origins - a 'final solution' maybe!!===
,,,,,

Where?

How come you can see this "thrust" while all I can see are remarks related to the undisputed imbalance of the Pakistani community's involvement in 17 identified cases of grooming for exploitation + 400 cases reported as having been brought to her attention by the respected and respectable Hilary Wilmer ~~ and nothing else than I can see.

In particular I can see no demands for repatriation; & I must add that, with my racial origins of which you are quite aware, I find your use of the phrase "final solution" with all its overtones peculiarly distatsteful; as well as being in no way related so far as I can perceive to anything of Keith's that you have cited in your "chapters" of quotations.

Forget "thrusts": show me specific points which will not fit the programme I have just rubricated.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 02:46 PM

Mike,
Virtually all the examples Keith has shephered together on this thread are subjective opinions based on extremely limited experiences; we have no idea how subjective and how limited because he has chosen to keep it that way by refusing to say whether he believes the deplorable picture he paints of Paskistani life in Britain is local, town-based, city-based or national.
The careful shepherding of all this material together under one roof and presenting it as life in Pakistani Britain today presents us with a corrupt and degenerate people made so by their culture and their racial origins.
The sheer size of the sum of his postings does that, even if his examples were not so appalling - his lip-service interjections serve only to confuse rather than clarify.
I have no doubt whatever that any one of us could have done the same job on any cultural or racial community in Britain today - West Indian, Irish, Jewish, Polish, Greek, Traveller, the indigenous population..... - all have their villains, perverts, criminals, thugs. Concentrating on these and their behaviour in the way Keith has (even to the extent of faking his evidence) is what makes his attitude racist.
Nobody here has denied such behaviour exists within the Pakistani community, and nobody would in any way defend or excuse that behaviour, but the whole thrust of Keith's approach gives us a decadent community who should all be marched to the nearest airport forthwith and shipped back to whence they came (not sure what you do about the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation who were born in Britain and have no claim to their ancestral origins - a 'final solution' maybe!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 01:10 PM

Jim ~~ I am greatly exercised as to WHAT POINT YOU IMAGINE YOURSELF TO BE MAKING with all this. We have all read these extracts for ourselves, on the thread above. They seem to me to be cogent arguments for the imbalance Keith states to have been found in certain contexts within the conduct of this demographic. Why repeat them, except to reinforce his arguments by repetition?

I have, however, obligingly read them all again ~~ and still can't find the racism you purport to have uncovered therein. Point it out to me, please. Perhaps I am just being thick. But then again, perhaps the very suspicion of any whiff of racism by the mention of any demographic in any adverse context is enough to raise your instinctively antiracist hackles to the extent of their smothering your judgement? Just perhaps...

Don, meanwhile, goes on widening the argument to insist that other contexts than the one we are discussing are somehow relevant, but does not specify how. Please see my last post, Don, 0643 AM, addressed mainly to Jim, but also to you & Steve, as to how I find this approach counterproductive to what I take to be your position, which none of you has endeavoured thus far to dispute.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:41 PM

And last, but not least
Chapter 5
Jim Carroll

"At the point in their lives when they are ready for this sort of activity, Asians cannot go to Asian girls because it would be a terrible breach of the honour of the community and their family to have sex with an Asian girl before marriage." She said that the reason Asian men targeted very young white girls was because older white girls knew that a relationship with an Asian youth was unlikely to last as the community would seek an arranged marriage with someone from the Asian sub- continent. Police and groups campaigning to protect women insisted that the grooming of youngsters is not segregated along race lines, though there is concern at the attitudes of some young Asian men towards white girls.
Parents claim that criminal networks are able to prey on young girls because the authorities are reluctant to tackle the issue for fear of upsetting race relations in areas of the North West with large ethnic minority communities.
However, Ms Cryer added: "I think there is a problem with the view Asian men generally have about white women. Their view about white women is generally fairly low
Lord Ahmed, a Labour peer, said he was talking about Asian men in general and warned they can target young Asian girls as well as white girls.
He said: "They are forced into marriages and they are not happy.
"They are married to girls from overseas who they don't have anything in common with, and they have children and a family.
"But they are looking for fun in their sexual activities and seek out vulnerable girls.
"I get a lot of criticism from Asian people who ask, 'How can you say this about Asian men?' But they must wake up and realise there is a problem.
"WHAT JACK STRAW HAS SAID SO CAREFULLY IS TRUE: (my emphasis) There is a problem with some members of the Pakistani community targeting young women in this way. In recent years we have seen it specifically with victims aged just 14, 15 or 16-years-old who are out on the streets at night and groomed by predatory gangs.

"For people to just come out and call Mr Straw racist is wrong. There must be a debate, not on his right to make the comments but on the issue itself because if we can't do that then we can't be honest about the issues that currently affect our communities."
Grooming is only a crime if against children.
As their id evedence that a disproportionate number of BPs are involved, it is quite reasonable to ask why.
People who know the culture, and some members of it blame the culture.
They convinced me.
BPs are predisposed to marry cousins, resulting in very high child and infant mortality. It is true.
t is not being a Pakistani which causes potential sexual repression in these men. It is their Muslim upbringing which sets the rules by which they are expected to live.
Those same rules apply to virtually all Muslims, no matter what their country of origin. The same rules regarding sexual behaviour also apply to Hindus, and to various other faiths.
Yet you steadfastly adhere to the belief that of all the people in the world living under those constraints, the only ones who transgress are British Pakistanis.

Share with us your no doubt brilliant explanation for the fact that Moroccans, Bahrainis, Tunisians and Iranians in this country, for example, and of course Hindus, seem to have no similar problems living with pre marital sexual repression.
56 convictions came within the remit of the study.
53 were BPs.
And how do YOU al lexplain Wilmer's case file of 400 families of victims and ALL perpetrators BPs?
17 court prosecutions since 1997, 14 of them in the past three years, involving the on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16 by groups of men.
I think it was a study of, 17 court prosecutions since 1997, 14 of them in the past three years, involving the on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16 by groups of men.
Witness statements.   
accused some Pakistani men of specifically targeting Hindu and Sikh girls. "This has been a serious concern for the last decade," said Hardeep Singh of Network of Sikh Organizations (NSO)
We raised the issue of our girls with the previous government and the police on several occasions over the last decade. This phenomenon has been there because a minority of Islamic extremists view all 'non believers' as legitimate targets," said director NSO Inderjit Singh.
Targeted sexual offences and forced conversions of Hindu and Sikh girls was not a new phenomenon in the UK, said Ashish Joshio from Media Monitoring group.
Hardeep said that in 2007, The Hindu Forum of Britain claimed that hundreds of Hindu and Sikh girls had been first romantically coaxed and later intimidated and converted by Muslim men.
They were speaking of there own actual experience with victims of the child raping gangs.
It was not an opinion that the children were raped, and not an opinion who did the raping.
'men combining in teams to procure children in their hundreds from public spaces.' in answer to your question, no i dont know of examples of teams of adults grooming in such a public fashion. Most peadophile rings operate in a highly covert manner. I dont neccesarily think this therefore describes a new 'crime type' but it does perhaps describe a highly succesful methodology currently being employed by a particular group of abusers.
The survey found a massive over representation which can hardly be claimed to be evidence against over representation.
There is a massive over representation of BPs in this crime.
Helen B again, quoted by Yorkshire Post.
"At the beginning we worked on the assumption that girls were groomed by individual pimps, but later discovered widespread pimping networks, much like international people trafficking gangs. Shopping malls, games arcades, places around takeaways and parks are common meeting places.
"The girl (who's typically aged between 13 and 16, but can be only 11 or 12) may meet the man alone, or be introduced by a friend who already knows him. He is usually quite a lot older and good looking, well-dressed and may well have a fast car. He'll meet her regularly, shower her with gifts, give her drink and maybe also drugs, take her for rides, tell her how special she is. He may have sex with her, but not at first, and he will discourage her from telling her parents about him because "they wouldn't understand".
"At some point further down the line he will take her to a flat or down an alley and tell her that in return for all the things he has done for her, it's payback time and she has to do something for him. She will then probably be gang raped. She will be confused, weak, think she's in love with the pimp, but also feel ashamed and guilty. She goes home and takes it out on her family and also drops out of education."
I have stated REPEATEDLY that BPs are under represented in other sex crimes.
I KEEP TELLING YOU IT IS ONLY ON STREET GROOMING OF CHILDREN FOR RAPE BY GROUPS.
This is going on in many cities and has been for decades.
I agree that you have described how each gang probably originates, but it does not explain why there are so many gangs or why they are all BPs.
A case of this not involving BPs has yet to emerge.
The MPs and support group people have seen many hundreds of victims over many years and report all BP perpetrators.
The study was of all cases that have come to court so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM

Chapter 4
Jim Carroll

But Ram Gidoomal, of the South Asian Development Partnership charity, told BBC News: "There are many more that go unreported."
Victims were sometimes taken abroad before being murdered, he added.
It was estimated there were more than 13 honour killings worldwide every day in 2000.
Entire families can be involved.
And women have even been murdered for the "dishonour" of being raped.
The question for us is if Heshu had gone into a police station saying she felt at risk would she have been treated with the urgency her concerns warrented.
For dozens of couples in the UK, such threats have become all too real. Police are now investigating more than 120 deaths they suspect of being "honour killings". It has been estimated that 12 women a year die in the UK as a result of such terrifying acts.
It is estimated that at least 55% of British Pakistanis are married to first cousins and the tradition is also common among some other South Asian communities and in some Middle Eastern countries.
British Pakistanis are 13 times more likely to have children with genetic disorders than the general population - they account for just over 3% of all births but have just under a third of all British children with such illnesses.
Indeed, Birmingham Primary Care Trust estimates that one in ten of all children born to first cousins in the city either dies in infancy or goes on to develop serious disability as a result of a recessive genetic disorder.
It is estimated that at least 55% of British Pakistanis are married to first cousins and the tradition is also common among some other South Asian communities and in some Middle Eastern countries.
British Pakistanis are 13 times more likely to have children with genetic disorders than the general population - they account for just over 3% of all births but have just under a third of all British children with such illnesses.
Indeed, Birmingham Primary Care Trust estimates that one in ten of all children born to first cousins in the city either dies in infancy or goes on to develop serious disability as a result of a recessive genetic disorder.
The risk of chromosome disorders increases to a maximum of about 1 in 21 at age 45.
The risk of genetic disease given in the BBC report was 1 in 10 for first cousins More than double.
It appears, despite your low opinion, that most girls are hoping for some kind of relationship, and only the young and naive do not realise that these men are all promised in marriage.
But these areas are the hot spots and BPs are overwhelmingly responsible.
This crime is unknown outside cities with a large BP community, and practically all the perps. are BPs.
Many HUNDREDS of girls, often vulnerable or underage girls, ensnared into sexual bondage by accomplished gangs.
Why is it confined to cities with a large BP community?
Why are the perps, almost without exception, BPs?
Late marriage and a denial of intimate relationships drives some men to co-operate in the grooming and abuse of these girls.
Hilary Willmer, of the Coalition for the Removal of Pimping, said that since 2002 her group had supported 400 families where girls were the victims of grooming and sex abuse by mainly Pakistani men. "The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians. We think this is the tip of the iceberg." But she cautioned against treating the matter as a race crime. "It's a criminal thing
Helen B again, quoted by Yorkshire Post.
"At the beginning we worked on the assumption that girls were groomed by individual pimps, but later discovered widespread pimping networks, much like international people trafficking gangs. Shopping malls, games arcades, places around takeaways and parks are common meeting places.
"The girl (who's typically aged between 13 and 16, but can be only 11 or 12) may meet the man alone, or be introduced by a friend who already knows him. He is usually quite a lot older and good looking, well-dressed and may well have a fast car. He'll meet her regularly, shower her with gifts, give her drink and maybe also drugs, take her for rides, tell her how special she is. He may have sex with her, but not at first, and he will discourage her from telling her parents about him because "they wouldn't understand".
"At some point further down the line he will take her to a flat or down an alley and tell her that in return for all the things he has done for her, it's payback time and she has to do something for him. She will then probably be gang raped. She will be confused, weak, think she's in love with the pimp, but also feel ashamed and guilty. She goes home and takes it out on her family and also drops out of education."
I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE EXCEPT WHAT I HAVE LEARNED FROM THOSE EMINENT, REPUTABLE PEOPLE WITH ALL THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE. (my emphasis)
Four men launched a horrific attack on a teacher in which they slashed his face and left him with a fractured skull because they did not approve of him teaching religion to Muslim girls.
Akmol Hussein, 26, Sheikh Rashid, 27, Azad Hussain, 25, and Simon Alam, 19, attacked Gary Smith with a Stanley knife, an iron rod and a block of cement.
Mr Smith, who is head of religious education at Central Foundation Girls' School in Bow, east London, also suffered a fractured skull.
The four now face a jail sentence.
Detectives made secret recordings of the gang's plot to attack Mr Smith prior to the brutal assault.
The covert audio probe captured the gang condemning Mr Smith for 'teaching other religions to our sisters', the court heard.
The RE teacher was targeted as he made his way on foot along Burdett Road in nearby Mile End on July 12 last year, Snaresbrook Crown Court was told.
Prosecutor Sarah Whitehouse told the court: 'The evidence from what was said on the probe points overwhelmingly to a religious motive for this attack.
The authors do not refute that BPs are the abusers, only that all the victims are white, which I always acknowledged.Then it says, "Hilary Willmer, of the Coalition for the Removal of Pimping, said that since 2002 her group had supported 400 families where girls were the victims of grooming and sex abuse by mainly Pakistani men. "The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians. We think this is the tip of the iceberg."
Ann Cryer, a Labour member of the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee, has been at the forefront of attempting to tackle the problem after receiving complaints from mothers in her constituency about young Asian men targeting their under-age daughters.
Although campaigners claim that hundreds of young girls are already being passed around men within the Asian community for sex, she said that attempts to raise the problem with community leaders had met with little success, with most of them being in a state of denial about it.
She said: "The family and cultural norms of their community means they are expected to marry a first cousin or other relative back in a village in Mirapur or wherever the family comes from. Therefore, until that marriage is arranged they look out for sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM

So which is the racist bit Jim?
These are quotes from people not ever accused of racism, including BPs, or me reporting what such people have said.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:36 PM

Chapter 3
Jim Carroll

The 25-year-old recruitment consultant was killed after she asked to marry an Afghan man - instead of marrying someone in the Pakistani family circle.
Child sexualisation.
Pakistani human rights activists are outraged at reports that a long-running blood feud in a remote corner of western Baluchistan province has been resolved by the handing over of 15 girls, aged between three and 10, for marriage.
"There has to be action," said Asma Jahangir, a leading rights campaigner. "These people who force others to sell their daughters must be sent to prison."
The new government in Islamabad, led by the party of the late Benazir Bhutto, has promised to act. "We will not allow young girls to be traded like this," said the information minister, Sherry Rehman. "The culprits who tried to do this will be arrested. The orders have been given."
But Jahangir said those orders had not been acted upon. "There is a dysfunction in the whole system. They are not listening to the government," she said. "We need to see them being more effective than just rhetoric."
Vanni, an ancient tribal practice in which feuding clans settle their differences by exchanging women for marriage, is illegal in Pakistan. In 2004 the Sindh high court outlawed all such "parallel justice" systems. But the writ of government is weak in rural areas, and local police often turn a blind eye.
"The girl (who's typically aged between 13 and 16, but can be only 11 or 12) may meet the man alone, or be introduced by a friend who already knows him. He is usually quite a lot older and good looking, well-dressed and may well have a fast car. He'll meet her regularly, shower her with gifts, give her drink and maybe also drugs, take her for rides, tell her how special she is. He may have sex with her, but not at first, and he will discourage her from telling her parents about him because "they wouldn't understand".
"At some point further down the line he will take her to a flat or down an alley and tell her that in return for all the things he has done for her, it's payback time and she has to do something for him. She will then probably be gang raped. She will be confused, weak, think she's in love with the pimp, but also feel ashamed and guilty. She goes home and takes it out on her family and also drops out of education."
The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians. We think this is the tip of the iceberg.
It can happen to any child from any family," she said. "The men, the gangs have all the experience. The children, the families and the parents are bewildered, don't know what's happening.
"In practice, unless the primary victim is prepared to give evidence then it's very difficult to make charges stick. The men know this, so they often wait until the girls are 13 before actually having sex with them."
Of course criminality is an exception to the rule, but it is remarkable that there are so many exceptions to this particular rule.
So it has been remarked on.
I suspect, based on the testimony of knowledgeable people, that there is a cultural explanation.
Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.
Lox, BPs are massively over represented in infant mortality and serious, crippling childhood disease.
First cousin marriage is a part of BP culture.
By accepted theory, it is to blame.
Men are predisposed because there is no outlet for sexual relationships within the community, and no intimate relationship permitted outside.
There were 12 "honour killings" in Britain last year - six in London, according to Scotland Yard.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:34 PM

Chapter 2
Jim Carroll
His comments come weeks after former Foreign Secretary Jack Straw provoked national outrage by saying that some Pakistani men look at white girls as 'easy meat' for sexual abuse.
Labour peer Lord Ahmed said: 'I get a lot of criticism from Asian people who ask, "How can you say this about Asian men?" But they must wake up and realise there is a problem.
'I am deeply worried about this as it has happened in my own backyard, and in Rochdale and Bradford.
'This didn't happen in my or my father's generation. This is happening among young Asians. While I respect individual choice, I think the community needs to look at marriages in the UK rather than cousin marriages or economic marriages from abroad.'
The girls tended to be 16 or younger. Often they were from challenging backgrounds - homes with inconsistent parenting, or with a history of alcohol or drug problems.
The string of convictions in cities such as Rotherham, Preston, Blackburn, Rochdale and now Derby have more often than not involved Asian men, specifically men of Pakistani origin, and mainly Muslim.
Their culture inspires a slight predisposition to the grooming and abuse of underage girls
There have been no none Pakistani gang that has been found to be involved in such a crime, and that is the only crime under discussion.
Gangs forming for the purpose of street grooming.
While acknowledging the under representation of BPs in all other non terror crimes including other sex crimes, there is a massive over representation here.
Some Asian husbands trapped in loveless, dead ¬relationships become -frustrated, their desires ¬emotionally distorted. And yes, as Lord Ahmed says, they prey on young white girls for their perverse sexual satisfaction.
Sex, for them, is not reciprocal or an act of consent. It is taken as a right, regardless of what their wives — or indeed, those young girls they prey on — think.
I recently met a young ¬Muslim woman called Munee, who told me she was brought over from Pakistan to marry her cousin when she was 17.
With brutal candour, she said to me: 'It was like rape every time because he didn't want me and I didn't want him.' She ran away. And, she told me, her husband now has a 13-year-old white 'girlfriend'.
But her husband is far from acting alone in the Pakistani community. One man I met, called Taher, looks back with ¬revulsion at his previous self, for he too used to prey on young white girls. Today he works for a charity and says he feels desperately sorry for the ¬victims of arranged marriages. 'I was crazy — a young man with sexual needs married off to a young virgin. She was very sweet, but there was nothing between us,' he says.
'I would not sleep with her, so I started cruising with these guys looking for easy sex with white girls.'
A Number of Asian men run off to get away from forced marriages. I know of stories of savage sexual and physical abuse and ¬emotional persecution meted out to rebellious sons.
He continues: 'There was one really sweet teenager — her mother was a drunk — who really got attached to me. She changed my attitude. Everybody had failed her, so I stopped behaving like that.
'I still feel guilty and filthy for what I did in the past. And I now want to help these families.'
One in 10 young British Asians believes so-called honour killings can be justified, according to a poll for the BBC's Asian Network.
In one recent case, two men were jailed for life for murdering their relative after she fell in love with an asylum seeker.
Greengrocer Azhar Nazir, 30, and his cousin Imran Mohammed, 17, stabbed Nazir's sister Samaira 18 times at the family home in Southall in April 2005.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM

Here is Keith's contribution to our knowledge of the British Pakistani community - a people I have personally always found to be quiet, industrious, eager to learn, friendly and anxious to avoid trouble.
His opinions, and those he has chosen to represent his views of that communty, are peppered with denials of his being a racist or of bearing any ill-will towards that community - I've made up my own mind how valid those denials are - I have no doubt that others are quite capable of doing the same.
Because of the sheer size of his postings I am going to have to offer them in installments, just like a Dickens novel - they certainly resemble Dickens' work in size and squalor.
Jim Carroll

Chapter one
The muslim communty does not encourage its girls to have relationships.
Marriages are usually arranged, and usually with partners in Pakistan.
Their unmarried young men must abstain or find sex outside their own community, but not have lasting relationships.
Paedophilia is not endorsed, but the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) took a child bride.
This particular crime, dubbed street grooming, is the domain of male muslim gangs according to the people in a position to know.
There is lots of other dreadful crime for which other groups are responsible, but let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for.
First cousin marriage is common within Pakistani culture.
Does it imply that all Pakistanis do it and no others do it?
An undesirable consequence is that they suffer a high level of inherited disabilities and a high infant mortality.
All I ever said about Pakistani culture is that girls tend not to be allowed to engage in courtship behaviour.
British Pakistani culture generally does not encourage the kind of courtship behaviour prevalent in Western cultures.
A young man of any ethnicity will find it hard to live a saintly life under the cultural pressures found here.
Marriage partners are arranged at a young age, but relationships with girls are not allowed.
The gangs in this case are predominantly made up of Pakistanis.
British Pakistanis generally do not approve of girls having relationships with males?
Marriages are very often arranged at a young age?
Parents try to marry their daughters at the earliest age possible while men marry much later in life. The reason for this is to prevent the bride from losing her respectability through personal encounters with other men. Whilst the man marries much later in life as he is responsible for providing for his wife and future children. For most Pakistani men it takes time before they are economically established for this role. This of course means the bride will marry a man considerably older than herself, an age difference of ten years is not uncommon.
Parents start saving towards the cost of the wedding from the birth of their child as marriage is expensive. The most common marriage arrangement is between first cousins. If a first cousin of suitable age is not found then a second or third cousin will do. Marriages between unrelated couples are uncommon.
Though Pakistanis have immigrated in groups an entire family including extended relations is not always present in the UK. In such cases the marriage partner will be in Pakistan. Where one partner is in Pakistan problems are often encountered if the partner is male. Experience suggests UK immigration officials are usually quite happy to grant visas for brides from Pakistan to enter the country, however men from Pakistan usually face a long and ardous struggle to gain entry to the UK
Whether the prospective partners are allowed to see each other prior to the wedding depends on the families concerned. If one partner lives in Pakistan a photo may be all that is provided. when partners are allowed to meet, the meeting will take place amongst the two families who will be present at all times. It is not unusual for the couple to have no direct contact prior to the wedding.
'They are forced into marriages and they are not happy. They are married to girls from overseas who they don't have anything in common with, and they have children and a family.
'But they are looking for fun in their sexual activities and seek out vulnerable girls.'
He said Asian men resort to abusing young white girls because they do not want meaningful relationships with adult white women.
'An adult woman – if you are having an affair – would want your time, money and for you to break up your marriage,' the peer added.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 11:21 AM

Don, Straw suggested it was just white girls, but I never did.
I said that it was not just white girls in my first post on this on Jan 23rd., and more recently posted some stuff from non muslim Asians who have also suffered this crime.

You are right to say that I can not answer questions without knowing what they are.
Just post them one or two at a time and I have promised to give the best answer I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 09:43 AM

""If you just vaguely say that there were questions I missed somewhere back in this very, very long thread, then I can not.""

Correction!! Not cannot,......WILL NOT!

You can't even be honest with yourself.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 09:32 AM

""These young men act like any other young men. They're fizzing and popping with testosterone, they want some outlet for that but Pakistani heritage girls are off-limits. So they then seek other avenues and they see these young women, white girls who are vulnerable, some of them in care, who they think are easy meat.""

"Like any other young men"

Like young hindus?
Like young Arabs?
Like the 29% of British Pakistanis living in the South of England?
In fact, Like all British Pakistanis outside of the very limited area in which these few gangs operated?

These young men all have one thing in common. None of them show any lack of ability to control their urge to rape and traffic underage girls.

I also would take issue with the description vulnerable (except for perhaps those in care), when applied to white girls in general.

I would need some serious evidence for believing that all white girls are somehow a pushover for any Asian man who fancies them, yet manage to avoid white Paedophiles' advances.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 09:15 AM

""Hillary Wilmer, because of her years of work with victims, knows more about this issue than anyone else.
When she is contradicted by one random bloke from Kent and two from Ireland, no one is going to take any notice.""

He's real big on dehumanising opponents isn't he?

Straight out of the Josef G school of propaganda.

Call 'em BPs, Irishmen, or random blokes, and they become non-persons to whom you can feel superior, and whose arguments you can ignore. That way you can hide the fact that you have absolutely NO answers to those arguments.

He has posted the same dishonest crap on just about every thread he has bothered with, and almost always with a racial aspect to his views.

An examination of his chosen targets over a period of years will tell the reader exactly where he is coming from, and leave no doubt as to his motives.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 08:46 AM

Jim, Joe said, we were both good people.
Good people does not include racists.
He also said,
"OK, so this is what Jim said, and I guess I have to say that Keith has a valid complaint and that Jim has unfairly distorted Keith's positions in a cheap attempt to ridicule his thinking. "

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 08:41 AM

"Joe, bless him, really has had to read all the guff we have both put up."Joe, bless him, really has had to read all the guff we have both put up."
Joe is a mediator - one whose decisions you have tried to over-ride at the time of your notorious attempt at forgery - remember.
He has attempted to immediate but chose not to comment on ether of our respective cases.
"I keep saying Don, just post them one or two at a time and I promise to answer."
Answer the ***** questions that hae been put to you and stop the patetic waffling.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 08:26 AM

I keep saying Don, just post them one or two at a time and I promise to answer.
If you just vaguely say that there were questions I missed somewhere back in this very, very long thread, then I can not.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 08:14 AM

""Don, you choose not to accept the evidence.
Nothing would convince you.""

Looking in the mirror again Keith?

And you said you would ANSWER QUESTIONS, so I have another for you.

WHEN WILL YOU ANSWER?

To date you have avoided, evaded, deliberately misrepresented, and waffled aimlessly, but you have not yet deigned to give one direct answer to any actual question.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 07:38 AM

I am no racist, and have never posted anything to justify that slander.
I refute it.
It is a lie.
You can put nothing up in support of it.

Joe, bless him, really has had to read all the guff we have both put up.
He still sees us as both good people.