BS: Muslim prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 12:02 PM

Jim: I note your reply on that other thread I have refreshed, to which I have replied there. On your last address to me on this one, I can't see where I mentioned your having any brief for any religion, so don't see why you went out of your way to deny any such. As to nevertheless, recognising racism when you see it; in view of your remarks on the other thread, are you absolutely convinced that you find and recognise it here on this one?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 11:53 AM

Cobra, I have never pretended to be anyone else.
It was obvious to all that the troll would never have admitted his lie and said sorry.
It was obviously me playing games with him.
No deception.

In all my researches on this, I have found no evidence at all of this kind of child abuse in Ireland.
I hope that is a comfort to you, Lox and Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 11:49 AM

Jim:
Thank you in return for your moderate response; but I would point out that you refer once again to 'prostitution' in your reply to Keith in the same post. I would refer you back again to my argument in my previous post addressed to you, that grooming for sexual abuse, which is the alleged offence at issue, is not the same offence as organising prostitution, & that the introduction & reiteration of this element in your argument is a distraction from the main point.

Cobra:
I note the previous accusation against Keith which you have pertinently revived; and take it into account in considering his arguments. & I do appreciate its force. It does not, however, seem to me to be absolutely fatal to the points he has been making, in the main cogently in my view, on this thread.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: cobra
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 11:43 AM

Keith, Bill Woodcock - is he a friend of yours?

How well do you know him? o o
                           !
                         (O)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 11:31 AM

"LIAR. RACIST.BIGOT!"
No proof then - ah well - stet.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: cobra
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 11:19 AM

Keith, I have always been inclined to take people at face value. In your case this has meant that I have observed you as nothing more than an obsessive Googler and WikiWarrior with a predilection for C&P-ing articles from newspapers, in a highly selective fashion, and presenting the filleted quotes as "research" to substantiate your increasingly hysterical hypotheses.

Having reviewed your Mudcat posts since you joined, I notice two things. First, you are consistent in your outpourings and have not once deviated from or moderated your position in response to input from others. What this means is that, in my case, I have no interest in engaging with you as it wastes my time reading and re-reading fatuous and selective "research", and your refusals to acknowledge any legitimacy whatsoever with regard to the points of view put forward by others.

The second thing I have observed from your past posts is that you are also a devious individual with a history of manufacturing aliases and responding to your own posts in a corroborative and misleading fashion. The evidence of my "research" into your previous misdemeanours is below. It is on file and available to anyone who chooses to look for it. It is not an edited version of the post which you made nor is it selectively quoted. I would be very interested to know which of the supporting responses in this thread actually originate with you and why you have felt it necessary to engage in subterfuge of this sort. Here is the post in question and I would welcome your comments - also, please note, you were "yellow-carded" more than once by the Mods on this most "unparliamentary" behaviour:-


Subject: RE: BS: Britain and Germany rule the waves !
From: GUEST,Oakville - PM
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:18 PM

Keith, I have found no bigotry or slurs in your posts.
I take it back.
I am ashamed.


"This message appears to have been posted by Keith A of Hertford. That's not allowed, Keith - and you damn well know it."
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 10:38 AM

Or,
IT CAN'T BE TRUE.
IT JUST CAN'T!
LIAR. RACIST.BIGOT!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 10:19 AM

Keith
You have reverted to empty invective once more - probably in order to avoid the questions you are unable to answer.
There is no proof whatever that what any of your cut-n-pastes describe are anything other than local hearsay reports of a few Asians being involved in prostitution in areas with large Asian populations, rather than the picture you paint of them being main movers-n-shakers of the trade in Britain.
Back up your statements with properly conducted surveys and provide documentary proof of the numbers involved and you may have a point, otherwise, your comments can only be viewed as wishful thinking to back up your own prejudices.
It's hard not to notice that apart from the usual suspects, you have had no support whatever - a sample of one of your soulmates:
"To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons."
Mike;
I hold no brief for any religion; Muslim or Christian, but I think I recognise racism when I encounter it.
Will look into your re-opened thread - thanks.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 09:39 AM

IT CAN'T BE TRUE.
IT JUST CAN'T!
LIAR. RACIST.BIGOT!
All Jim and Lox's posts, however long and tedious, could be replaced with just that.
Not one positive contribution in all these weeks.

The hard evidence of the convictions, an aberration.
You prefer to believe that than accept the obvious truth.

I put up more than one senior police officer, serving and retired, whom no other officer has contradicted.
But, police = racist so it must be dismissed.
You prefer to believe that than accept the obvious truth.

Ahmed may have caused a serious road accident. He was using his phone.
It follows that you can dismiss his whole life's work serving his community, and believe he would suddenly lie and smear his own people.
You prefer to believe that than accept the obvious truth.

Hillary Wilmer set up a victim support group and has helped hundreds of families over the years.
She was given a prestigious National Award for her work.
But, she is a christian so it must all be made up lies.
You prefer to believe that than accept the obvious truth.

Jasmin Alibhai-Brown.
Even you could find nothing on her, so you can just ignore her.
You prefer to believe that than accept the obvious truth.

There is nothing anyone could put up that would open your eyes.
IT CAN'T BE TRUE.
IT JUST CAN'T!
LIAR. RACIST.BIGOT!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 12:54 AM

I have refreshed the "'Racism' as catch-all" thread mentioned above.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 12:12 AM

I am sorry, Jim; but I think you are uncharacteristically confused, both here and on the 'Gypsy Wedding' thread; misled by your hatred, which I am sure we all share, of racism in any form. Prostitution is not at issue here; its organisation has long been largely and observably the prerogative of gangs from E Europe or certain Mediterranean islands, esp Malta; in which assertion issues of 'racism' will not apply because those concerned are all white Europeans.

In which connection, see my thread ref'd above, on 'racism' as a catch-all term to evade argument, inspired by the footballer Gattusa's attempt to justify his notorious assaults on Joe Jordan by accusation of Jordan's having been 'racist' in calling him an 'Italian bastard' ~~ neither element of which accusation, offensive as one of them may have been, can conceivably be interpreted as 'racist', even if Jordan did say them which he denies.

What this thread is about is some worrying statistics regarding grooming and exploitation of underage girls, only in a few places, but which have significant implications in appearing to indicate a statistical preponderance of a certain demographic in their commission. The organisation of prostitution, I repeat, is not at issue; and accusations of 'racism' in attempting to explain the, admittedly few, instances where these statistics appear to apply, merely confuses the matter, rather than offering any solution to what appears to some to be a genuine problem which requires addressing.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 10:36 PM

And then there is this:


When politically correct and culturally diverse societies agree to 'the reasonable' Muslim demands for their 'religious rights,' they also get the other components under the table. Here's how it works

Percentages source CIA: The World Fact Book (2007).

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:
United States --1.0%; Australia --1.5%; Canada --1.9%; China --1%-2%; Italy --1.5%; Norway --1.8%
At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:
Denmark --2%; Germany --3.7%; United Kingdom --2.7%; Spain --4%; Thailand - -4.6%
From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.
They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves --along with threats for failure to comply. ( United States ).
France --8%; Philippines --5%; Sweden --5%; Switzerland --4.3%; The Netherlands --5.5%; Trinidad &Tobago --5.8%
At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.
When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris --car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam-Mohammed cartoons).
Guyana --10%; India --13.4%; Israel --16%; Kenya --10%; Russia --10-15%
After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:
Ethiopia --Muslim 32.8%
At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:
Bosnia --40%; Chad --53.1%; Lebanon --59.7%
From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:
Albania --70%; Malaysia --60.4%; Qatar --77.5%; Sudan --70%
After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:
Bangladesh --83%; Egypt --90%; Gaza --98.7%; Indonesia --86.1%; Iran --98%; Iraq --97%; Jordan --92%; Morocco --98.7%; Pakistan -97%; Palestine --99%; Syria --90%; Tajikistan --90%; Turkey --99.8% United Arab Emirates --96%
100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' --the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:
Afghanistan --100%; Saudi Arabia --100%; Somalia --100%; Yemen --99.9%
Of course, that's not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 08:23 PM

"Please google them Jim"
Anne Cryer = crooked politician involved in corrupt expenses claims
Hilary Wilmer = christian church activist
Lord Ahmed = Labour peer, jailed for causing a fatal road accident by sending five text messages while driving on a motorway - released on appeal after serving only twelve days of sentence.
Jack Straw = Labour minister desperate to put things right with the public after serving in several disasterous Governments - including one which entered into an illegal war against a Muslim country,
and an ex-Lancashire policeman.
None have presented documentary evidence that British Pakistanis have played any part whatever in prostitution, so what they had to say is based on hearsay evidence, and none have even suggested (as you have consitently) that there is a nationwide prostitution problem involving Pakistanis, Muslims, Asians..... so we can safely assume that they are referring to North of England localites with large Asian populations - dealt with above and ignored by you.
Nor have any of them suggested (as you have) that any involvement with prostitution has anything to do with the culture of hose involved.
So what have we got - a mish-mash of hearsay evidence that some Pakistanis may be involved in prostitution in some parts of the North of England - no cultural connection and no documentary proof whatever to back these statements up.
Once again, can you please explain how sexual repression causes men to become pimps?
"My views are just those of the people I put up."
Yes, indeed they are!!!
"None are racist."
They may or may not be; but most are politicians quite capable of lying for their parties or their own political interests - or a church activist, quite possibly with a religious agenda of her own - oh, and one is an ex-policeman, and therefore above suspicion, especially on matters of race!!!!
"That proves you are wrong."
Yes, 'course it does Keith!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 07:37 PM

Who?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: cobra
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 07:36 PM

Barking.

Absolutely barking. How fecking sad this man is....

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 06:47 PM

Keith A From Hertfoed: "I do believe that repressed sexuality can lead to deviant behaviour.
How is that racist, or even controversial?"

For what its worth, your post above IS absolutely true, and is a well known accepted truth, regardless of 'race' or anything of the sort. Several religions, and/or cultures are more repressed than others. On the reverse side, overly promiscuous 'cultures' and/or sects, or cults, ALSO have a tendency for 'deviant behavior'.

Now before some clown, jumps up and blathers, 'bigot' or 'racism', do your homework, and you shall find that what I just said is true.

I am NOT singling out any individual group, but 'repression', history has shown us, has NEVER worked, and the backlash, tends to be of either a violent, or deviant nature,...or both.

Just thought I'd clear that up.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 06:25 PM

My views are just those of the people I put up.
None are racist.
Some are Pakistanis.
That proves you are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 06:10 PM

There are two issues in this thread.

The first is the thread topic: racism.

The second is sex crimes.


You have your own issue which is your racist attitude to pakistanis.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 04:05 PM

Jim missed it all Lox.
And, you dealing with it does not diminish it one iota.
There is an issue.
How do you account for it?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 03:55 PM

You're just repeating the same stuff Keith.

I dealt with this earlier.

You ignored it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 03:24 PM

Sorry about these multiple posts Lox and Jim.
No, really sorry.

former detective superintendent Mick Gradwell, who retired from Lancashire Constabulary last year, supported Mr Straw's comments.

He said: "From the first time I was posted to East Lancashire it has been a problem.

"What Jack Straw has said so carefully is true: There is a problem with some members of the Pakistani community targeting young women in this way. In recent years we have seen it specifically with victims aged just 14, 15 or 16-years-old who are out on the streets at night and groomed by predatory gangs.

"For people to just come out and call Mr Straw racist is wrong. There must be a debate, not on his right to make the comments but on the issue itself because if we can't do that then we can't be honest about the issues that currently affect our communities."

Mr Gradwell, who has 30 years of experience in major police investigations, said no one was saying the Pakistani community was responsible for the majority of sex crimes.

But this element of sex crimes was a "specific problem within a group of people in a minority community" that needed addressing, he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 03:14 PM

"I know nothing about the others you mentioned "

Please google them Jim.
I did provide brief bios.
I wish you would read my short and to the point posts.
You have got Ahmed totally wrong.
A lifelong socialist from Rotherham who spent his life working for the poorest of the community.
Google him too.

Lord Ahmed, a Labour peer, said he was talking about Asian men in general and warned they can target young Asian girls as well as white girls.

He said: "They are forced into marriages and they are not happy.

"They are married to girls from overseas who they don't have anything in common with, and they have children and a family.

"But they are looking for fun in their sexual activities and seek out vulnerable girls.

"I get a lot of criticism from Asian people who ask, 'How can you say this about Asian men?' But they must wake up and realise there is a problem."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8291361/Asian-men-who-groom-young-girls-frustrated-by-arranged-marriages-pe

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 03:07 PM

PS I see you are multiple-posting again, in spite of having complained of others doing the same, and declaring you will not do it - I think you owe Lox an apology - oh, I forgot, you don't do sorry.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 03:02 PM

"I do believe that repressed sexuality can lead to deviant behaviour."
But you select to apply it only to Pakistanis and make no reference to it in connection with other races.
Perhaps you might explain your mantra of "repressed sexuality can lead to deviant behaviour".
Muslim society is extremely male dominated; even to the point of women being stoned to death for immorality. I can fully understand why this can lead to women breaking free, often into extreme poverty, but how does this turn young Muslim men into pimps and procurers?
You have ignored the point made earlier that the main cause of prostitution is universally recognised to be poverty and those who prey on poverty; the extent to which sexual repression plays a part in the practice is unknown and undocumented - pimping is a business, and always has been throughout history - the oldest one in the world. You, as with other racists, are using the culture bit selectively.
Prostitution is thought to be among the highest in the US - are you claiming that they are sexually repressed; on what grounds do you excuse them?
Where it does exist, prostitution among Muslims in Britain is a relatively new phenomenon - have they not always been sexually supperessed - according to you that is part of their culture.
I have not claimed anybody to be racist liars (other than your good self); I have said there are no figures to back up the claims and that some of the statements refer to local situations - already discussed, but ignored by you.
Why a middle-class Asian baron, a member of an extremely elite club; should be an expert on prostitution in depressed areas such as Bradford is a little beyond me - he probably knows about as much about those communities as any peer knows about the one I grew up in. I will admit he might know a little about criminality as he was tried and convicted for causing a fatal accident by using his mobile phone five times while driving (he was, of course freed on appeal 12 days into his sentence). Ahmed is a politician - lying seems to come with the job. Would you trust the word of a criminal and politician such as he? Of course you would if suited your argument.
I know nothing about the others you mentioned except that it is unclear if they are referring to Britain as a whole, their own specific and localised area of experience - or even Rupert Murdoch's survey on the subject.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 02:42 PM

2007
Ann Cryer, a Labour member of the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee, has been at the forefront of attempting to tackle the problem after receiving complaints from mothers in her constituency about young Asian men targeting their under-age daughters.

Although campaigners claim that hundreds of young girls are already being passed around men within the Asian community for sex, she said that attempts to raise the problem with community leaders had met with little success, with most of them being in a state of denial about it.

She said: "The family and cultural norms of their community means they are expected to marry a first cousin or other relative back in a village in Mirapur or wherever the family comes from. Therefore, until that marriage is arranged they look out for sex.

"At the point in their lives when they are ready for this sort of activity, Asians cannot go to Asian girls because it would be a terrible breach of the honour of the community and their family to have sex with an Asian girl before marriage." She said that the reason Asian men targeted very young white girls was because older white girls knew that a relationship with an Asian youth was unlikely to last as the community would seek an arranged marriage with someone from the Asian sub- continent. Police and groups campaigning to protect women insisted that the grooming of youngsters is not segregated along race lines, though there is concern at the attitudes of some young Asian men towards white girls.

Parents claim that criminal networks are able to prey on young girls because the authorities are reluctant to tackle the issue for fear of upsetting race relations in areas of the North West with large ethnic minority communities.

However, Ms Cryer added: "I think there is a problem with the view Asian men generally have about white women. Their view about white women is generally fairly low
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2237940.ece

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 02:29 PM

I would not call someone a liar without providing the evidence.
You can not do that can you.
I did not lie about the thread drift.
You were wrong.

I have not lied about the witnesses.
"You quote them and then pretend they support your opinion even though they contradict you."

No.
I quote them and say "that is my case. I agree with them."

"Your assertion that Pakistanis are predisposed to rape and enslavement of underage girls is a racist assertion."

Jasmin blames their misogeny and contempt for non Muslims.
Is she a racist?

We know that something is predisposing them, because of the scale of their crimes.
When will you tell us what you think?
And why did you say that you had, when you had not?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 01:52 PM

"I do believe that repressed sexuality can lead to deviant behaviour.
How is that racist, or even controversial?"

More Mendacious crap.


Your assertion that Pakistanis are predisposed to rape and enslavement of underage girls is a racist assertion.

It is unsupported by the facts.


"Lies about my witnesses.
Not true .
I quote them.
I do not lie."

You quote them and then pretend they support your opinion even though they contradict you.



"I am just the messenger"


Bollocks. We are debating YOUR hypothesis that Pakistanis are predisposed to rape.


You are free to drop it any time.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 01:22 PM

Same piece.
Shouting down Jack Straw, busying ourselves with warnings about feeding the BNP, are displacement activities that will do nothing to stop Asian groomers, who, from childhood have developed distorted ideas about themselves, society, females, vice and virtue. Like Samura said, it is up to insiders to examine and reveal what lies beneath these crimes. We owe that to ourselves, to our future generations, and to the country we have made ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 01:04 PM

Link not working.
Google text for this Independent piece.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 12:55 PM

Racist liar Jasmin Alibhai Brown in Independent.

"Being avowedly a leftie liberal, anti-racist, feminist, Muslim, part-Pakistani, and yes, a very responsible person, I should be in the circle with these objectors – particularly as I can't stand the Rt Hon MP for Blackburn, his devious, shady politicking and moral expediency. However, just as when he criticised the full veil, I cannot condemn his views. How can I? Just before Christmas, I too wrote about these rapists and the anti-white cultural prejudices in some of their communities and families."
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhai-brown-jack-straw-is-right-to-ask-hard-ques

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 12:43 PM

"There you go again making assumptions based on culture "

I do believe that repressed sexuality can lead to deviant behaviour.
How is that racist, or even controversial?


Do you think Cryer is lying?
Hilary Wilmer a racist liar?
Lord Ahmed? He should know.
You can not just dismiss a statement by a figure like Straw.
What election was there anyway?

Like Lox, you tell the world to listen to you and discard the informed wisdom of these eminent people.
Why should we?
What are your credentials?

Who the ** are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 12:24 PM

"especially if living a sexually repressed lifestyle."
There you go again making assumptions based on culture - racism pure and simple - though not applied to any others racial or social group where prostitution has been a part of the culture for centuries (Britain, for instance).
The sources you quote are unsubstantiated opinions; there are no facts and figures, and many are based on what was described as a half-arsed unscientific 'survey' by Rupert Murdoch's Times.
Many of the comments on the subject refer to specific locations and are in no way an attempt to analyse the national scene.
One comment points out that Jack Straw's comments came at election time; the Labour Party seems to have gone further down the Conservative road of playing to the British electorate's darker side than I would have thought possible prior to 'New Labour'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 10:28 AM

Thread drift.
on 21st jan you posted about "muslim abuse of young white girls"
I continued posting on the original topic until 23rd jan.
I do not lie.

The census does not show predispositions, yet you can make statements about proportions having it.
the 53 are just those convicted.
We know there are many more.

"Your position that British Pakistanis struggle daily to suppress a desire that they, and no other people have,"
I am sure other people do have it, especially if living a sexually repressed lifestyle.

Romanians.
Are any convicted for abusing and trafficking local children?
That is what we are discussing.
Keep to the subject please.

Lies about my witnesses.
Not true .
I quote them.
I do not lie.

""All the people listed said it is a problem specific to BPs."
Are you for real? Grooming and pimping specific to Pakistanis??"
No.
We are debating the grooming of children in the street and public places.
According to those listed, it is rife in cities with a large BP minority and the gangs are overwhelmingly BPs.

I am just the messenger.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 09:52 AM

Sorry, didn't finish - this certainly is NOT a thread-drift; it has everything to do with Muslim prejudice - Yours!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 09:47 AM

"All the people listed said it is a problem specific to BPs."
Are you for real? Grooming and pimping specific to Pakistanis??
Prostitution, of which grooming and pimping is a specific part, is as old as history (The oldest Profesion) and cannot be identified exclusively to one racial or cultural group, and any attempt to do so is blatent racism.
Irish writer Patrick MacGill was writing about it in connection with Irish girls at the time of WW1, Colin McInnes likewise about the West Indian communities in Britain in the 1950s. Christopher Isherwood's novels dealt specifically with pimping in pre-war Berlin..... and so ad infinitum.
The upturn in prostitution in Britain has been linked directly to the fall of communism and the springing up of Mafia-like organisations in Eastern Europe.
Nobody here has claimed that the practice does not take place in Muslim communities, but this, contrary to your claim, is an indication of the breakdown of the values of those communities rather than part of the culture.
Designating the procuring and marketing of underage girls as 'Muslim' or 'British Pakistani' or any secific racial or cultural group, predominantly or otherwise, is as racist as it was when it was used against the Irish and the West Indian communities in the past.
You really have leapt out of your racist closet with a vengeance.
You make me sick too.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 09:02 AM

Excuse me ...

99.97% of Romanians DON'T commit sex crimes.

(Which serves as evidence that Romaniians don't have a predisposition to rape either)

But according to those stats theres a higher risk of them doing it than British Pakistanis.

So this claim:

"Use you calculator to find the bp convictions for this as a proportion of their population, and then repeat it for other ethnic groups.
I predict a massive over representation."

is WRONG.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 08:55 AM

BUT

Just to humour you,


There are 7631 Romanians living in the UK.

Of those, in the LAST 3 WEEKS, 2 have been convicted of Trafficking teenage girls and raping them.

I don't know how many before that ...

... but I don't need to check - because already, that number constitutes 99.97% which is a HIGHER proportion that the nuber of British Pakistanis who have committed similar crimes over the last 14 YEARS.


SO YOU ARE WRONG.

British Pakistanis are not disproportionately more likely.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 08:28 AM

"Use you calculator to find the bp convictions for this as a proportion of their population, and then repeat it for other ethnic groups.
I predict a massive over representation."

A false argument and an unnecessary task.


99.99% is enough keith to prove beyond doubt that those criminals were the exception and not the rule.


Your position that British Pakistanis struggle daily to supress a desire that they, and no other people have, to rape underage white girls is the most foul disgusting bit of racial slander I have ever read.


I would accuse you of being a troll, but you have been diligently fighting for this view for a month on a public chat forum.

You make me sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 08:23 AM

"I kept to the original 3 days longer than Lox."

Another lie.

When I have confronted you about the context of this thread you used the "thread drift" excuse on me too.

I took great lengths to put my positon in context.


You'e whole position is a lie.

You are lying about British Pakistanis,

You lie about me,

You lie about Helen Wilmer,

You Lie abouyt Anne Cryer.


Lies lies and a gritty determination to smear Pakistanis with your disgust of them.


It is you who are disgusting Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 08:22 AM

Predisposed does not mean they will succumb.
How are you able to make statements about the proportions?

Use you calculator to find the bp convictions for this as a proportion of their population, and then repeat it for other ethnic groups.
I predict a massive over representation.

Do you not think that Straw et al were not capable of thinking of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 08:16 AM

Keith Writes:

"""a small minority MAY have this predisposition, but the vast majority don't"
How do you know this Lox?
Do voices tell you secrets"


Because according to the 2001 census, there are 747,285 British Pakistanis living in the UK.

Of those, 58 have been convicted of trafficking underage girls.

That means that 99.99% of British Pakistanis have never been shown to have any interest in the trafficking and abuse of underage girls.

(I used a calculator)



Shall we analyse those statistics Keith?


Hypothesis - British Pakistanis have a predisposition to trafficking underage girls.

Evidence - 99.99% have never been connected with this crime in any way.

Conclusion - The evidence CONTRADICTS the hypothesis.

Just as Helen Wilmers Testimony CONTRADICTS the hypothesis.

and just as the authors of the ONLY academic study on the subject CONTRADICT the hypothesis.


... are those the voices you meant keith?


In light of the first statistic alone it is clear that your determination to prove that Pakistanis are perverts, which is what you have been doing for a month, is the very definition of racist slander.


Why do you want to slander Pakistanis so much keith?


Why are you such a liar?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 08:16 AM

Thread drift jim.
It moved on to this from the original subject.
I kept to the original 3 days longer than Lox.

"Are you claiming that these are representative of Muslim cultural life?"
No.
All the people listed said it is a problem specific to BPs.
Any evidence against?

"Where has anybody (apart from shite like the BNP), ever claimed that the activities you have introduced are part, typical, or even common to Muslim life in Britain - or elsewhere?"
See last answer.

"Just to remind you again - the subject is Muslim prejudice."
Thread drift, and not by me.

"By the way, thank you for once again presenting your racist credentials by claiming that these crimes are builtin to the Muslim culture."
The claims are not mine, but made by those people listed, and relate to BP culture not other Muslim cultures.

Do you label those people as racists?
That makes a fool of you as they are above suspicion of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 07:26 AM

Yes you have - you have introduced grooming and pimping as Muslim activities
quote "This is about street grooming of local girls." unquote
Are you claiming that these are representitive of Muslim cultural life?
If not WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH THIS SUBJECT?
"Some of them are."
As are 'some' in the Irish, Scots, Welsh, West Indian, and (mainly) indigenous communities.
WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH THIS SUBJECT?
"I am repeating the views of people with impeccable credentials."
Where has anybody (apart from shite like the BNP), ever claimed that the activities you have introduced are part, typical, or even common to Muslim life in Britain - or elsewhere?
WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH THIS SUBJECT?
Just to remind you again - the subject is Muslim prejudice.
By the way, thank you for once again presenting your racist credentials by claiming that these crimes are builtin to the Muslim culture.
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 06:49 AM

"Why have you presented crimes that ....."
I have not.
It was a major news story picked up here, and not by me.
I joined after a few days.

"You have not addressed the fact that, by and large Asian communties are regarded by the authorities as peaceable...."
Yes I have. I have acknowledged from the start they are under represented in other crime.

"Instead you have painted them here as sordid criminals,.."
Some of them are.
Sorry but do not blame the messenger.
I have always acknowledged that it is a small minority.

"ARE YOU NOT CLAIMING THAT THE MUSLIM RELIGION INEVITABLY LEADS TO GROOMING, PIMPING?"
No.

"IF YOU ARE NOT SAYING THIS, WHAT IS YOUR POINT IN MAKING THE STATEMENTS YOU HAVE CONSISTENTLY REPEATED."
I am repeating the views of people with impeccable credentials.
I have no cause to doubt their veracity.
Do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 06:27 AM

"Jim and Lox, if your ideology forces you to deny truth, there is something wrong with the ideology."
Please address the implications of your own postings and stop making vaccuous statements such as this one.
Why have you presented crimes that are not typical and certainly not exclusive to Muslim culture and then suggested that these are an inevitable consequence of that culture? You have said this over and over again.
You have not addressed the fact that, by and large Asian communties are regarded by the authorities as peaceable, industrious, law-abiding and the least likely to seek public attention, despite having to go in fear of intimidation persecution by people who share your views. Instead you have painted them here as sordid criminals, whose crimes are buil into their culture.
Less of the empty rhetoric Keith, you are the one hiding behind your own bigoted agenda.
ARE YOU NOT CLAIMING THAT THE MUSLIM RELIGION INEVITABLY LEADS TO GROOMING, PIMPING?
IF YOU ARE NOT SAYING THIS, WHAT IS YOUR POINT IN MAKING THE STATEMENTS YOU HAVE CONSISTENTLY REPEATED.
You have admitted that "I have no knowledge or experience of my own to offer", some of us have lived and/or worked with these people - you appear to be making it up as you go along.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 05:58 AM

Cobra, that Pentameter stuff is shocking, but irrelevant to this debate.
I never claimed any group, certainly not BPs, are trafficking in foreign girls and women.
This is about street grooming of local girls.
I always acknowledged that bps are under represented in other crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 05:50 AM

Cobra,
"Now, Keith, where is the evidence for this latest assertion of yours - that "many hundreds" of children have been "trafficked by gangs of BPs" ?"

"Hilary Willmer, of the Coalition for the Removal of Pimping, said that since 2002 her group had supported 400 families where girls were the victims of grooming and sex abuse by mainly Pakistani men. "The vast majority are white families and the perpetrators are Pakistani Asians. We think this is the tip of the iceberg."

That corroborates the statement by former Home Secretary Jack Straw, and of Ann Cryer, Lord Ahmed, Jasmin Ailbhai_Brown, Mohammed shafiq, and several senior police officers.

It is the truth.
Jim and Lox, if your ideology forces you to deny truth, there is something wrong with the ideology.
Or with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: cobra
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 05:12 AM

Good morning WyoWoman. Trust me, the overwhelming majority of people on this thread would wish it away but, there ya go, that's freedom of speech for ya! That and last-wordism ;-)

You say:- "Maybe someone over there would care to start a thread called "British intolerance to the political/cultural views of others".

Would it help if someone started a thread on "USA intolerance to the political/ cultural views of others"? In the spirit of inclusivity, would we start with Sarah Palin? The Montana militia people? Etc, etc but I am sure you get my drift. As you can see from this thread and others, people this side of the pond don't just shrug their shoulders, sweep it under the carpet and say: "Oh, you kids, honestly!"

And, honestly I am not trying to start another Tea Party!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: cobra
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 05:01 AM

Oh dear! I had promised myself I wouldn't bother any more. That the best thing was to ignore the blatant lies and distortions which Keith is using to provide a smokescreen for his bigoted and racist (and sectarian) views. But, then this:-

Keith to Lox: "And what is your explanation for the fact that in cities with a large BP minority many hundreds of children have been sexually abused and trafficked by gangs of BPs?"

Now, Keith, where is the evidence for this latest assertion of yours - that "many hundreds" of children have been "trafficked by gangs of BPs" ? I know - since you have told me , and previously used it as an excuse NOT to answer my direct questions - that you do not like confusion in your mind and so prefer to deal with one simple facet at a time. So, please tell me where is the empirical evidence to support your claim that "many hundreds" have been trafficked by those you seek to demonise?

As far as I can tell, Operation Pentameter 2, a co-ordinated campaign by police forces across the country and reporting in 2008, estimated that:

Up to 18,000 females, including girls as young as 14, are working in brothels across Britain after being smuggled into the country to meet the booming demand for prostitutes. Police revealed that nearly five times more women than previously thought are working under duress in massage parlours and suburban homes.
Operation Pentameter 2, a six-month campaign by police forces across the country, resulted in the release of 154 women and 13 girls put to work as part of a lucrative trade dominated by organised crime gangs, which increasingly co-operate via the internet to maximise earnings from their victims.
The Operation Pentameter 2 campaign, which saw the arrest of 528 suspected traffickers and the closure of 822 brothels and premises being used to sell sexual services, also revealed an increasing use of young British women, who are trafficked within the UK after being groomed by older men who lure them to towns away from their homes. The Home Office highlighted one recent case in Sheffield where 33 victims had been recruited by men in public places and taken away for sexual exploitation.
However, most victims are foreign, with at least 85 per cent of the women working as prostitutes coming from countries including Brazil, China, Lithuania and Thailand. Many victims are lured to Britain with false promises of work in bars or nightclubs only to be sold for up to £5,000, often at airports or service stations, to pimps and brothel-keepers. The women are then set quotas of the number of men they must have sex with each week, working for little or nothing under threat of violence against their families.
Tim Brain, the Chief Constable of Gloucestershire, whose force co-ordinated Pentameter 2, said that police forces were becoming more effective in tracing prostitution networks and seizing their assets, but admitted that they remained a significant problem. The first phase of Pentameter in 2006 rescued 88 victims and made 232 arrests.
The Government insisted that the success of the campaign, which has resulted in 24 convictions, was evidence of its determination to hinder the work of the gangs behind sex trafficking. Of the 167 women and teenagers released, all but five were being used as prostitutes. The rest, of whom three were children, had been sold as domestic slaves.
Mr Brain also revealed that a large number of residential properties were being used to sell sex (of the 822 premises raided, nearly 600 were private homes). "In some of the cases, neighbours have not suspected any kind of unusual activity," he said.
Prostitution and people-trafficking is now the third most lucrative black-market trade in the world after gun-running and drugs-smuggling. It is being driven by growing demand for prostitutes in the UK, with websites promoting sex flourishing and local newspapers carrying advertisements for prostitutes. Gangs often share the income from internet "bookings".
Ministers also said children were being trafficked into Britain to grow cannabis or to join street crime gangs. There are plans for a further crackdown on fraudsters who smuggle children to make bogus welfare claims.
Sex trafficking in numbers
6,000-18,000 Trafficked women are thought to work as prostitutes in Britain
167 Victims identified in a police operation to free them
13 Victims aged between 14 and 17
£500,000 Amount seized in brothel raids
500,000 Number of women trafficked into the EU each year "

Source: The Independent - "It Is, Are You?"

The rationale for including the above report is quite simple really. I need to understand how you have reached your conclusion, and the inference that British Pakistanis are disproportionately represented in this crime.

I very much doubt - and I have checked ALL the posts - that anyone on this thread is claiming there is no problem re grooming within the communities you have referred to. However, your preference has consistently been to home in on one section of society and ignore the fact that this crime is not exclusive to that group. That is why, IMO, you have attracted the flak you have on this thread and on others. You see, Keith, your arguments are selective, they are weak, they are inconsistent and they are intellectually lazy. By reusing to broaden the scope of your "research" (for which read Google, Wikipedia etc ) you have laid yourself open to accusations of racism and bigotry. Can you not see that?

The reality is that grooming and trafficking is a heinous crime wherever and whenever it takes place. It is not, however, the exclusive preserve of one section of society. The police and court reports show that most paedophile gangs are white, that the "host community" has a higher incidence per capita of population of sex crimes than ANY racial or ethnic group.

So Keith, to reiterate, please advise how you have arrived at the strident claim you made re the "many hundreds", let me have some empirical data to support your claim and explain why police forces across the country are saying that this is NOT an issue/ crime exclusive to or disproportionately represented in ethnic communities.

At the risk of unecessary repetition, but to save you having to refer back (I know you find that stressful since you have told us so), here are those police figures once again:-

"Sex trafficking in numbers:
6,000-18,000 Trafficked women are thought to work as prostitutes in Britain
167 Victims identified in a police operation to free them
13 Victims aged between 14 and 17
£500,000 Amount seized in brothel raids
500,000 Number of women trafficked into the EU each year "

So, Keith, : "What DO the voices say?"

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,WyoWoman
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 04:23 AM

This has to be one of the most boring/obnoxious threads on Mudcat this year. Joe why are you allowing it to go on ?

Name calling, personal insults, threats and every other form of verbal combat has been employed.

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that it is always the Brits on Mudcat who create these hostile controversial political threads ?

Last year Joe and his appointed moderators closed down around seven threads concerning British politics.

Maybe someone over there would care to start a thread called "British intolerance to the political/cultural views of others".