BS: Muslim prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 11:15 PM

Don. In the UK we have racist thugs but I'd imagine other countries have too. The difference between the UK and some other countries that I'm aware of is that rather at least theoretically being protected by law, the nation itself supports persecution.

In Saudi for example, conversion from Islam to carries the death penalty. Read up on their religious freedom Freedom of Religion in Saudi Arabia

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 05:59 PM

I am CONVINCED that the radicals of this religion pose the greatest threat to the Western way of life...

Not in the U. S. of A. by any means. Radical Christians[sic] pose a much greater threat, and have caused a great deal more damage and suffering .

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Brian May
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 05:38 PM

FOR THOSE THAT BELIEVE, NO PROOF IS NECESSARY, FOR THOSE THAT DON'T BELIEVE, NO PROOF IS POSSIBLE.

I looked up the definition of 'bigot' and digested it. Now look at it again and consider what the radical (note RADICAL) moslems are saying/doing.

On a personal basis, I am CONVINCED that the radicals of this religion pose the greatest threat to the Western way of life (which has many warts).

Whilst our Society is far from perfect (SOoo far), we would have far fewer freedoms if these characters accepted the invite for all those who seem to think they're just hard done by angry, disaffected individuals.

This is a co-ordinated campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 05:37 PM

"as you are posing the question I assume that you can back up the intimation that the Moslems do not indulge in any ill feeling towards other peoples"

I don't read that insinuation at all - I read that singling Moslems out, or in Keiths caee Pakistanis, and saying that they are naturally predisposed to violence, rape, paedophilia etc, is a racist approach.

I read frustration with the single minded fixation on race and religion, when what is important is the crime.

Eliminating all Paksitanis and Moslems will not eliminate the crimes mentioned on here.

So a different set of common denominators must be responsible.

An unbiased analysis would seek to find those common denominators and not spend more than a month trying to make the shit stick by whatever devious means can be invented.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 05:10 PM

The Pakistani govt minister who was murdered yesterday was apparently a Christian who worked for minority rights.

What sweet irony for our "liberal" friends.
Their thought processes are becoming so convoluted, that they shall soon disappear up their own arseholes in a cloud of smoke!.....:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 03:35 PM

Do you perhaps have any instances to relate of Christians in Saudi having dogshit pushed through their letterboxes, or petrol followed by a burning rag?

Any Christian shopkeepers killed or injured by racist thugs?

Any Christians evicted, or moved on from town to town, refused service in local shops, etc. etc?

Maybe not. But if you replace the word 'Christian' with 'Jewish' how do the questions stand then? What if we replace Saudi with Iraqi? And Christian with Kurd? Does the name Chemical Ali mean anything to you? How does he compare to our minister of defence I wonder?

I don't know all the answers but seeing as you are posing the question I assume that you can back up the intimation that the Moslems do not indulge in any ill feeling towards other peoples. Would you care to share the proof of that or is it just one of those unproveable hypothoses that you seem to be so against?

D.

(I had got bored with the same old arguments if you had not gathered by my earlier post. But the argument that Moslems are paragons of virtue intriugues me...)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Brian May
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 01:55 PM

Well, for all those defending the Muslim religion, yet another assassination of a moderate politician in Pakistan.

A government minister who had the temerity to disagree with the draconian 'blasphemy' laws of the radical Muslims.

I would draw your attention to the title of this thread and then ask'why do you think there is so much prejudice against Muslims', it would have nothing to do with the conduct of its radicals would it?

These are the people that wish to overthrow our life-style and where do you think you'll stand if they manage that?

Will you point to Mudcat and say 'Look I stuck up for you', do you honestly think they'll care as they contemplate removing YOUR head with a bread knife for being any or no religion other than theirs?

Not nice to contemplate? Well look at the evidence and ask yourself, would you feel safe in their company.

So why shouldn't the populace take this into consideration before deciding whether or not they're bothered about offending this group?

I don't see the same thing happening attributed to Sikhs, Buddhists, Janes and so on. So it's hardly racist is it? It's anti a religion that causes such mayhem and grief.

So am I prejudiced? Damned right I am. But who is committing the bigotry in the most offensive fashion? Us or them?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 01:28 PM

The BP culture has much in common with other Muslim and Asian cultures, but is nevertheless separate and distinct.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 11:10 AM

""It is not being a Pakistani which causes potential sexual repression in these men. It is their Muslim upbringing which sets the rules by which they are expected to live.

Those same rules apply to virtually all Muslims, no matter what their country of origin. The same rules regarding sexual behaviour also apply to Hindus, and to various other faiths.

Yet you steadfastly adhere to the belief that of all the people in the world living under those constraints, the only ones who transgress are British Pakistanis.

Share with us your no doubt brilliant explanation for the fact that Moroccans, Bahrainis, Tunisians and Iranians in this country, for example, and of course Hindus, seem to have no similar problems living with pre marital sexual repression.

Your argument is more full of holes than a slab of Gruyere cheese.""

I am repeating this post of mine, which was completely ignored by Keith, Ake and Co, and will continue to do so until one of them grows a pair and attempts to answer it.

I say attempts, since the standard operating procedure is for them to ignore any post which cannot be answered truthfully without admitting the flaws in their argument.

Come on, man up and try.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 11:01 AM

""Don T ~~ & it might do wonders for yours, "Laddie", to go and try to live as a Christian in Saudi. And what point of any value at all does either of us think himself to have made here, I wonder.""

Do you perhaps have any instances to relate of Christians in Saudi having dogshit pushed through their letterboxes, or petrol followed by a burning rag?

Any Christian shopkeepers killed or injured by racist thugs?

Any Christians evicted, or moved on from town to town, refused service in local shops, etc. etc?

We have dozens of instances of Muslims Hindus and Travellers suffering this, or worse.

Is that a point that resonates with you at all?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 10:55 AM

Mike,
I am questioning the wisdom, even the right of people to claim that Muslim culture is an any way a cause of sexually predatory behaviour.
I set out my own personal experiences of racism in England (alongside an extremely well documented case), and asked if, as Keith has seen fit to make definitive pronouncements on Muslim culture based on hearsay evidence, I am nor entitled to offer a similar opinion based on my own experiences - apparently not, from his 'Little Englander' response.
Don has just pretty well summed up my feelings on the matter.
".....try to live as a Christian in Saudi"
Remembering how the British Empire bulldozed national cultures and identities into non-existance for centuries.... the terms 'glass houses and 'stones' comes thundering into view - or Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee even!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 08:42 AM

Keith,

Thanks for the Ceop reminder.

Indeed - A study that HASN'T BEEN DONE YET.

So NO RESULTS YET.

So still no evidence to support your hypothesis.

Just evidence against.

HOWEVER

I will quote the Ceop mission statement which says,

"Child sexual exploitation is not exclusive to any single culture, community, race or religion - it cuts across all communities. Neither can it be simplified along ethnic lines where the victims constitute one ethnicity and offenders another."



But the results will apparently be out in 3 to 6 months.

Unlike Keith, who will still be here slanderig Pakistanis, Ceop will be investigating child abuse.

Ceop


So keith - still no evidence to support your "hypothesis"?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 06:56 AM

Don T ~~ & it might do wonders for yours, "Laddie", to go and try to live as a Christian in Saudi. And what point of any value at all does either of us think himself to have made here, I wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 06:48 AM

Like I say, Jim; I just don't get the analogy. I remarked far above [to Steve, I think] about the Hegelian Leap which Islam had made whereby a quantative difference has become a qualitative one, saying there that this particular problem could not be appropriately addressed by cries of, "OK, then, what about so-&-so?"; which, if I understand your last post, is what you now claim to be doing.

You know; like if I say Sutcliffe the Yorkshire Ripper was a bad man, you feel that an answer might be something like "Well, I don't know so much; Christie killed more you know, & Haig more unpleasantly" (or maybe vice·versa, doesn't really matter).

So what if the British are as racist as you say: how does that excuse, or affect, or whatever, the objections to what these British Pakistanis have been, I REPEAT AND AM HAPPY TO DO SO TILL BLUE IN THE FACE IF IT WILL ONLY PENETRATE SOME THICK SKULLS ROUND THESE PARTS, *in small numbers but disproportionately* indulging in, which is what we are on about here?

I honestly, I say it again, cannot make out where you think you are coming from. That is what is not to understand. & I am not a thicko like Lox, & you know that is the case. & neither are you ~~ generally.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 06:41 AM

""All the evidence has been set out for you by Keith, yet you yammer on, attempting to muddy the water, you and your ilk are the ones who are agenda driven...just the same as on the homosexual threads, you dont really give a flying fuck for Pakistanis or homosexuals, only defence of the indefencible liberal agenda.""

No! Keith has set out NO evidence which supports his contention that Pakistanis are culturally predisposed (however slightly) to Paedophile rape and trafficking underage girls.

What he has set out is opinion from Journalists, Politicians, and self styled "experts". Expert on what precisely?.........Sociology? NO!.......Psychology? NO!

The ex Home Secretary who managed to be looking the other way when those illegals Ake complains about were arriving.

Who couldn't keep track of asylum seekers so that those whose claims were denied were sort of mislaid.

My God, he couldn't even manage to deport convicted foreign criminals at the end of their sentences, allowing them on release to melt into the shadows.

How much, would you say, is his opinion worth?

And his other experts? Publicity hounds to the bone, whose opinions over the years have been somewhat flexible, but newsworthy.

I care a great deal more than you about the way in which we treat minorities, the evidence of which on this site is abundant.

You see Ake, I am not (as you would like to portray) the least bit interested in any "Liberal" ideal. The difference between me and you, Laddie, is that I see them as people, while you see them as problems needing a solution.

I would really like to take you and Keith out of your comfortable smug self satisfied little world, and put you in the position of those you so despise.

Three months in a traveller community, or dressed up with a beard and turban in an Asian enclave would do wonders for your education.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 06:26 AM

Mike I am doing exactly the same as Keith - well, nearly exactly - I am presenting a hypothosis as to why Britain is as racist as it appears to be; Keith is making definitive statements as to why Pakistanis become involved in sexual criminality.
What's not to understand?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 05:58 AM

Sorry, Jim: you have lost me. I think you & I have taken this topic as far as we can and are never going to accommodate on it; so, as you said a few posts back,

"This is really getting nowhere, and I very much doubt if it ever shall."

I am content to let it lie there.

Best ~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 05:44 AM

Oh, and by the way Keith, thank you for misinterpreting my point so predictably and making it so forcefully
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 05:08 AM

No Mike,
I'm attempting to elicit a response from Keith and his ilk when I apply his standards to our own (I'm English too incidentally Keith) culture.
And right on cue.....
Jm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 04:55 AM

Jim: I am not sure what point you are making here; I honestly think you are a bit confused by the experiences you relate, with which I am fully sympathetic and which I can well see will have influenced your attitudes & opinions.

What I can't make out is whether you, yourself are explicitly recognising and admitting that this background & these experiences are responsible for your entrenched attitudes, leading to your inability to judge the truth or otherwise of the SPECIFIC ALLEGATIONS with which this thread is concerned, objectively & on their own merits. Or are you leaving it to me to point this syndrome of attitudes and responses out to you because you haven't recognised its effects for yourself?

Whichever, I genuinely believe this to be the case.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 04:16 AM

The London Multicultural Facts
1. Over 300 languages are spoken amongst its 7.3 million residents,
2. 200 different countries are represented among its 370,000 students, with 73,000 studying in the city.
3. London is the most popular city in the world for international students choosing to study outside there home country.
4. London is definitely the capital for multi cultural events and festivals including, Notting Hill Carnival, The London Mela, St Patricks Day, Chinese New Year and many, many others.
5. Every culture, religion and faith in the world is represented in the city.
6. What makes London special is that all the people from all over the world blend together in perfect harmony! Well most of the time!
7. The building I live in, which has 10 apartments all together and every single flat is occupied by different countries. Just a wee personal observation for you!
8. London is the illegal immigrant capital of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 04:04 AM

If you want to judge 1950s Britain, judge it by 50s mores.
No more racist than any other and better than most.
How were black GIs treated here compared to how their own army treated them?
London is the most multi ethnic city in the world.

You are just bigoted against Brits.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 03:32 AM

Mike,
This is really getting nowhere, and I very much doubt if it ever shall.
Perhaps if I explain why feel this point worth pursuing
I have come to believe that there is a strong argument for describing English racism as ‘cultural’, to take a leaf from Keith’s book.
I have spent all but 12 years of my life in three of the major cities of England: in order, Liverpool, Manchester and London. Each of them I found progressively racist, London being by far the worst. When I applied for my first job there (on the telephone), I was asked what colour I was. The racism escalated from there.
At school we sang hymns which declared that to be foreign was to be “in error’s chainâ€쳌; we were given half a day’s holiday (and a paper flag) on Empire Day; we were told, on the wireless, in the newspapers, even by our teachers, how the colonies were “not ready for self-ruleâ€쳌. All this would have been within five years of the Holocaust. Pat has just unearthed her old exercise book from Bluecoat School in Westminster in which she had been told to write during a lesson on logic, “All niggers have kinky hair, therefore all kinky haired people must be niggersâ€쳌.
I served my apprenticeship on the docks and, apart from the sneering and demeaning attitude toward the Lascars and Africans, and all the other ‘foreigners’ I met daily, I saw first-hand the segregated public lavatories; I remember distinctly signs carved over the doors saying “ASIATICSâ€쳌 and “MENâ€쳌.
When I moved to London, I quickly learned to keep my mouth shut when the subject of ‘nig-nogs’ or ‘Pakis’ or ‘wogs’ came up, and, to my shame, I never mentioned my Irish ancestry, especially during the 70s ad 80s. One of my customers proudly showed me his mirror-on-a-stick, with which he examined his car each morning because he “had Irish neighboursâ€쳌 who he’d “never met nor spoken to â€" the wife did once, but I soon put a stop to thatâ€쳌.
I think what offended me most was that whenever the subject of race came up people automatically assumed that I was as racist as they were; there was never any question that I might have thought differently on the subject.
Paki-bashing became a national sport at the time of the expulsion of the Asians from Uganda; it almost (but not quite) overtook queer-bashing. I did electrical work for a couple of Ugandan Asians and found them quiet, gentle and somewhat nervous of the welcome they had received.
I still get angry when I think of the Stephen Lawrence killing; an 18 year old youth stabbed to death by racist thugs â€" because he was black. One of the first acts of the police investigating the killing was to arrest Lawrence’s his companion â€" because he was black. The investigation was bungled and the killers went free â€" because the victim was black (the report on the investigation concluded that throughout, it was influenced by “institutional racismâ€쳌.   
The Singers Club and (some, but by no means all of) the folk clubs we visited, many of them frequented by people with Akenaton’s “indefencible liberal agendaâ€쳌, became small oases in a vast desert of racist shite.
Plenty more examples, personal, as well as reported, which could lead me to claim the existence of ‘a culture of English racism’.
I wonder what would happen if I were to suggest that, despite the tendency of the English to dislocate their shoulders patting themselves on the back and telling each other how fair and tolerant they are, they are not to be trusted when it comes to that subject of race. That’s what is happening here in relation to Pakistani immigrants to Britain.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 11 - 01:17 AM

"The subject of the survey was "on street grooming"
Yes thats right - They investigated it and they found that there was no new crime type."

Then why did the Child Exploitation and Online Protection centre (Ceop), decide to follow it up with a study of, errr
"On-Street Grooming"?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 06:01 PM

I can't help finding all this talk about "vicious attacks" funny.

Its OK for Ake, Brian, MtheGM and Keith etc to call hundreds of thousands of Pakistanis closet nonces on the basis of some Daily Mail stereotype, and indeed to make all sorts of other personaal statements about other catters, but when someone calls them a name they start whining and slink off to lick their bollocks in the corner.

Why don't you make yourselves more useful and fetch me my slippers and newspaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 05:52 PM

Keith

"There is no new crime type called "street grooming" "
The subject of the survey was "on street grooming"


Yes thats right - They investigated it and they found that there was no new crime type.


So the survey was conducted to find the truth, it found the truth, and the truth is the opposite of keiths opinion.



And Keith - Grow up - My comments about "nonces" do not require a response. Its a rhetorical point.


The fact that you are a teacher would prove nothing of the sort anyway - Ian Huntley was a school caretaker for Gods sake.

The point is that there is no evidence to say that you are anything other than a stubborn narrow minded git, so there is no reason to believe you are anything worse than that.

What I hoped you would get is that shit can be thrown at anyone and slander is easy.

The same can be said of Slander against Pakistanis.

99.99% of Pakistanis have never been associated in a sex crime, yet you say they are predisposed to child abuse, and they must overcome this perverse urge on a daily basis while other cultures don't have this problem.

In fact, you not only make this unsupported claim, but in addition, you claim to be able to explain WHY they are all closet perverts, based on your assessment of their collective psychological profile.

You're floating past the outer reaches of the galaxy mate and you will find no answers about pimps and sex traffickers out there.



Ake,

"your obnoxious friend who has neither the guts to apologise for misrepresenting me on these threads"

His obnoxious friend knows exactly where to find the quotes to back up his accusations.

It's already happened on this thread once.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 05:24 PM

The wheels on the bus go round and round

round and round
round and round
round and round
round and round
round and round
round and round
round and round
round and round
round and round
round and round
round and round
round and round...

All day long.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Brian May
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 03:24 PM

Yes I must admit when I see it degenerate into obnoxious name-calling, I generally switch off from a thread.

As I've said elsewhere, it's amazing how quickly a fair number of so-called do-gooders sink to abusing those with the temerity to disagree with them and their world-view. Their viciousness is a clear indication of the weakness of their debate, as they are challenged, they just get more and more abusive. A spectacular indicator to the kind of people they really are. Bottom line is, they are a poor advertisement for what they purport to care for.

On another tack, I had spoken earlier about what might happen if the silent majority were ever roused enough to act, it would appear we're seeing some of that in the Middle East.

I do feel however, that the new governments of these states emerging from the turmoil will quickly suss out that the major powers (both West AND East) are really only 'in it' for what they can get out of it. Indeed,iIn many cases, the reason these despots have lasted so long, is because they were supported by those very same regimes.

Whether we see a rejection of the radical muslim tenets, we'll see. But as has been said before, those very same tenets are only designed to keep the favoured few in power and to denigrate their women and keep them in their place.

We live in interesting times.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 02:43 PM

Regarding cowardice Jim, I have stood almost single handed on many threads here and I think, aquitted myself well...I have yet to see a reasoned argument for the promotion of homosexuality....and that remark does not equate to homophobia.
"Its just not fair"....does not constitute a reasoned argument.

For a coward look no further than your obnoxious friend who has neither the guts to apologise for misrepresenting me on these threads,nor for disgusting insults to one of our members and older people in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 02:31 PM

The important word, Jim, is 'potential'... & I would reply that, yes, those subject to certain conditioning, as e.g. culturally-based ~~ by in-family, late-in-life, fully arranged without the option, marriage demands, say ~~ frustration of certain natural expectations, will have a greater 'potential' for seeking their satisfactions illicitly than those whose cultures do not inhibit natural expectations in the same way. Which is not to say that any more than a small minority will be likely to succumb to such illicit seekings.

You on the left of the political spectrum are, after all, adept at blaming poverty for crime; but if I said that you are ∴ accusing all poor people of being 'potential' criminals, I think a sharp rejoinder might come back to me, of precisely the sort you deserve for your pertinacious and wilful misunderstandings of the points that Keith, pertinently quoting other authorities, is making with regard to the Islamic culture in its relation to marriage expectations.   

Pray extrapolate...

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 02:15 PM

"A remark rising from my contempt for cowards who stand on the sidelines egging the bullies on."

The "bullies" on this thread are the same bullies we see on all these threads....the ones who indulge in name calling in lieu of a cogent argument

You are one of them Jim.

All the evidence has been set out for you by Keith, yet you yammer on, attempting to muddy the water, you and your ilk are the ones who are agenda driven...just the same as on the homosexual threads, you dont really give a flying fuck for Pakistanis or homosexuals, only defence of the indefencible liberal agenda.

Tough!   Wake up, the world is beginning to see what sort of society lies behind the rhetoric

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 01:19 PM

"Keith's attempts to suggest that it is that culture that is the cause of the sexual grooming "

Alibhai Brown, Ahmed, Suffiq and others made the suggestion.
Do you suggest some sinister motive?
I think they are probably right.
Why does that make me suspect?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 01:01 PM

Mike,
Am not - as far as I can see, nobody is, in any way attempting to defend what we believe to be bad aspects of Muslim culture. What I question is Keith's attempts to suggest that it is that culture that is the cause of the sexual grooming and procuring of girls. If we were to accept that we would be suggesting that anybody of that culture is a potential groomer and procurer.
Keith's attemps to make racial/cultural capital from the Guardian article obviously without reading it fully and digesting its implications, and then rejecting it (except the bits that suit him), indicates, to me at least, that he has an agenda other than the one under discussion her.
I have asked, and received no reply, whether all nationalities brought up under a sexually repressed regime are potential sexual criminals. Many of my friends (and some of my family) were brought up in Catholic Ireland under what might be described a sexually repressed culture. Within living memory, arranged marriages and ones of convenience were a reality in rural Ireland, and in the Travelling community, it is even more recent, and may be still happening. Does this make them potential paedophiles?
I have repeated again and again that these reports of grooming and abuse are largely personal observations of what happens in small communities with a high percentage of immigrants - it is totally wrong to present them as Keith has consistently done:
"let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for."
If that is the case, then every member of that community/culture must be considered a potential sexual predator.
The opinions (that is what they are) of virtually all the people quoted come with a warning of the danger of misuse, which I believe has happened here and feel worthy of challenge.
"I am not behind any shadows....
A remark rising from my contempt for cowards who stand on the sidelines egging the bullies on.
"And I have no record of persecuting or denouncing or anything-elsing homosexuals"
And one referring to Akenaton's self stated homophobia.
"I have as you know great respect for you:"
There really is no need to repeat this; I have no doubt that your remarks are made honestly, and that you have read what I have written and given it unbiased consideration. Despite the fact that I disagree with you on occasion, here and elsewhere - of course I'll marry you and have your babies!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 11:23 AM

Jim ~~ I am not behind any shadows, You know perfectly well who I am. And I have no record of persecuting or denouncing or anything-elsing homosexuals, with many of whom I am on terms of intimate friendship & cordiality. And I haven't any record of posts on this forum, so far as I am aware, which you can take into account, as you are persisting in doing with Keith, as a no-brain smokescreen for discounting what I say ~~

Which is that I am astounded at your obdurate refusal to face evident facts, which have been moderatley rubricated in this thread, because their recognition will not fit in with your predetermined political agenda ~ which is the only explanation I can find for your absolutely atypical and uncharacteristic fatuities here.

For example: Do you not see that, with an anti-racist record like hers which led the Telegraph to denounce her as you quote, Alibhai-Brown's exposition of her views on this specific issue, which Keith has not summarised but QUOTED VERBATIM, become even more forceful?

I am sorry, I have no wish to quarrel with you. I have as you know great respect for you: and Backwoodsman went out of his way to praise the civilised urbanity of our contrary discourse on this thread earlier and said it was 'a pleasure to read'. But I cannot stand by and observe the frivolous, fatuous arguments you are deploying against Keith's careful expositions in silence. I am frankly astonished at & disappointed in you.

Though not in the least at/in that stinking Foulmouth-Lox, with his typically inane shrieks of "nonce". Welcome, Keith, to the club of those irrationally abused by that walking disgrace to this forum

~ off which I will, in all recovered coolness, remark that I think he should have been permanently chucked neck & crop for his disgusting remarks to me a few days ago. If people are not to be banned from here for completely unfounded accusations against other members of being unable to control their [non-existent] colostomies, being bondage-kinky, being helpless dribbling cripples, then what do they have to do to bring any moderator's wrath down on their heads, I should like to know.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 10:14 AM

Lox,
"There is no new crime type called "street grooming" "
The subject of the survey was "on street grooming"

Whatever the gangs are "reminiscent" of, they all turned out to be Pakistani.
"Not a race thing."
No, it is a criminal thing. The perpetrators just happen to be BPs.

I agree with Allibhai Brown on racism.
Neither of us are racist.
I absolutely refute that I quoted her out of context.
That is a lie.
Put up or shut up.

Obnoxious Lox, I have provide evidence that I am not a "dirty nonce (sexual abuser of children)"
I am a full time teacher of children and have been for 37 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 09:25 AM

"The tip of an iceberg she said."

In her opinion.


She also said that these Gangs were reminiscent of INTERNATIONAL gangs - i.e she didn't say that they operated in a way unique to Pakistanis.


And just in case there is any doubt, she said that these crimes were not a race thing.


But we already know this as it has been pointed out again and again.


But Keith has decided that he just knows.

Knows what?

Knows that Pakistanis are closet perverts who struggle not to abuse children.

Because there is no evidence that they dont.


A bit like the fact that there is no evidence to prove Keith is not a dirty nonce.


Keith - can you please provide evidence that you are not a dirty nonce ...

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 09:25 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 03:53 PM

""Lox,
"It does not follow that "British" Pakistani men ALL have a predisposition to sex crimes.
Which was what your hypothesis."

No I have never said "all."
I have always been clear it is only a small minority, the weak and wicked, who succumb.

Jim I have not singled out Muslims.
We are talking about BPs.
The culture is quite sexually repressive, such as might drive anyone to misbehave.
You would expect a small minority to succumb.
That fits the observed pattern.""

Now who is making a COMPLETE ARSE of himself?

It is not being a Pakistani which causes potential sexual repression in these men. It is their Muslim upbringing which sets the rules by which they are expected to live.

Those same rules apply to virtually all Muslims, no matter what their country of origin. The same rules regarding sexual behaviour also apply to Hindus, and to various other faiths.

Yet you steadfastly adhere to the belief that of all the people in the world living under those constraints, the only ones who transgress are British Pakistanis.

Share with us your no doubt brilliant explanation for the fact that Moroccans, Bahrainis, Tunisians and Iranians in this country, for example, and of course Hindus, seem to have no similar problems living with pre marital sexual repression.

Your argument is more full of holes than a slab of Gruyere cheese.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 08:59 AM

Rather than quoting Yasmin Alibhai-Brown out of context, I would highly recommend you and your ilk to read what she has to say on racism, particularly in The Independant, in full, for which she has been branded by the right-wing Daily Telegraph 'The Stupidest woman in Britain'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 08:55 AM

"It was about the crime of street grooming.
It just turned out to be all about Pakistani gangs."

It isn't getting through is it.

There is no new crime type called "street grooming"

And it is not defined on racial grounds - like Pakistani.


The experts were very clear to make that point.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 08:46 AM

"They're starting to babble again Keith.".... said the voice from the safety of the shadows.
Shouldn't you be out persecuting homosexuals, as is your wont?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 07:50 AM

I have not manipulated.
I have not distorted.
I have quoted verbatim.
You just can not accept the obvious truth.
IT CAN'T BE TRUE
IT JUST CAN'T!

Open your mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 07:40 AM

They're starting to babble again Keith.
Better just stop before they burst into tears, it cant be easy having ones ideology (blind liberalism), shredded in broad daylight.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 07:07 AM

Keith
I have already said how I feel about the way you have deliberately manipulated and distorted what are no more than opinions on small, high immigration area in the North of England.
The rest of your posting could have been deliberately lifted from a BNP publicity leaflet (maybe it was knowing your taste for cut-n-paste) â€" keep it up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 06:07 AM

The study was not about Pakistani gangs Lox.
It was about the crime of street grooming.
It just turned out to be all about Pakistani gangs.
There is a reason for that Lox.
Ask Hillary Wilmer.
Her support group helped 400 families of victims.
The perpetartors were BPs.
And not all victims turn to support groups.
Many of the children were in the care system and not living with families.
The tip of an iceberg she said.
Open your mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 05:41 AM

Yes Keith,

They found that in a Pakistani Gang, most of the Gangsters were Pakistani.

Which on its own goes to knock your theory down quite some way.

Becayse even in the Pakistani Gang, not all the criminals were Pakistani.


But none of this changes the fact that the only grounds upon which you have to support this theory are other peoples OPINIONS.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 04:58 AM

But the perpetators revealed by the study were overwhelmingly BPs.
And all those other eminent informed people were able to confirm that the findings were typical, widespread and on a vast scale.

Jim, this from a piece by Alibhai-Brown.

This week, a Muslim peer broke the code of silence that pervades British-Asian communities and spoke out against the criminal practice of forced marriages.

He starkly stated that there was a ­connection between forced marriages and the Pakistani gangs in the north of England convicted last month of entrapping and grooming young, often white, girls for sex.

He said that British-born Pakistani men are too often forced into loveless marriages with cousins from abroad and suggested this encouraged them to seek out these young girls.
It was time, he told the British Muslim ­community, to look more closely at the ­underlying causes of the crimes committed by such grooming gangs.


For giving an honest, informed and ­heartfelt opinion, Lord Ahmed of ­Rotherham has been assailed, abused and ripped apart by the ­religious and cultural guardians of those ­communities in a reaction that has been utterly disgraceful.
So let me say loud and clear that the coerced marriages Lord Ahmed is talking about are inhuman. Those parents who enforce them claim they are legitimate and say they provide the only way to ensure their young remain linked to extended ­family networks and prevent them becoming 'westernised'.


We have all heard the dreadful tales of young girls and women handed over to ­cousins in Pakistan or to men they have never seen in Bangladesh and India.
The problem is most widespread among Muslims, though a considerable number of Sikh families also believe their daughters should accept, without protest, husbands who are chosen for them.

The consequences of this ­tradition of arranged ­marriages are appalling.

Some Asian husbands trapped in loveless, dead ­relationships become ­frustrated, their desires ­emotionally distorted. And yes, as Lord Ahmed says, they prey on young white girls for their perverse sexual satisfaction.
Sex, for them, is not reciprocal or an act of consent. It is taken as a right, regardless of what their wives — or indeed, those young girls they prey on — think.

I recently met a young ­Muslim woman called Munee, who told me she was brought over from Pakistan to marry her cousin when she was 17.

With brutal candour, she said to me: 'It was like rape every time because he didn't want me and I didn't want him.' She ran away. And, she told me, her husband now has a 13-year-old white 'girlfriend'.

The consequences of this ­tradition of arranged ­marriages are appalling.

Some Asian husbands trapped in loveless, dead ­relationships become ­frustrated, their desires ­emotionally distorted. And yes, as Lord Ahmed says, they prey on young white girls for their perverse sexual satisfaction.
Sex, for them, is not reciprocal or an act of consent. It is taken as a right, regardless of what their wives — or indeed, those young girls they prey on — think.

I recently met a young ­Muslim woman called Munee, who told me she was brought over from Pakistan to marry her cousin when she was 17.

With brutal candour, she said to me: 'It was like rape every time because he didn't want me and I didn't want him.' She ran away. And, she told me, her husband now has a 13-year-old white 'girlfriend'.

But her husband is far from acting alone in the Pakistani community. One man I met, called Taher, looks back with ­revulsion at his previous self, for he too used to prey on young white girls. Today he works for a charity and says he feels desperately sorry for the ­victims of arranged marriages. 'I was crazy — a young man with sexual needs married off to a young virgin. She was very sweet, but there was nothing between us,' he says.

'I would not sleep with her, so I started cruising with these guys looking for easy sex with white girls.'

A Number of Asian men run off to get away from forced marriages. I know of stories of savage sexual and physical abuse and ­emotional persecution meted out to rebellious sons.
He continues: 'There was one really sweet teenager — her mother was a drunk — who really got attached to me. She changed my attitude. Everybody had failed her, so I stopped behaving like that.

'I still feel guilty and filthy for what I did in the past. And I now want to help these families.'

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 04:42 AM

"As good scientists, they said that it could have been a statistical fluke."

Stop it.


Trying to redefine a scientists concluson so that you can make it support your view is the same as making shit up.


They didn't say "it COULD be statistical fluke" theye said there is NO evidence to support the view that this is a new crime type based on Race.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 04:18 AM

I have provided actual quotes from all of them that state there is a problem with BPs, and that an aspect of the culture is to blame.
Read my posts please.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 03:53 AM

"......but by Straw, Cryer, Shafiq, Ahmed, and Allibhai-Brown"
None of whom made it a definitive statement, certainly not on the cultural implications, as you have - but then again, they don't share your agenda.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Mar 11 - 03:34 AM

"It was an honourable, honest attempt to tackle a problem."

Agreed Jim.
And it found that of 56 convicted perpetrators revealed by the survey, 53 were BPs.
That was their finding, with the caveat that it did not prove the problem was widespread.
Straw, Cryer, Shafiq, Ahmed, Allibhai-Brown, Hillary Wilmer and senior police officers all said, from their own knowledge and experience, that it was widespread (deny that?) and had been for years.

The link with culture was not made by me, but by Straw, Cryer, Shafiq, Ahmed, and Allibhai-Brown who all have knowledge of it or are actually part of it.
I admit to having been convinced by it, whereas your position seems to be that it can't be true.
It just can't!

The ludicrous Lox keeps asking me to prove I am not a paedophile myself.
I am calm enough now to reply that I am a full time teacher and have been for nearly 40 years.
That is not an entry qualification to my profession, obnoxious Lox.