BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 02:49 PM

Quoting Islamic extremism is no more relevant that my quoting those in Israel who have demanded that all Palestinians should be driven out of the area en-mass - plenty of examples to choose from.
After the last incursion there were many demanding that all Gazan electricity and water should be cut off, forcing the Gazans to pack up and go immediately.
During this present murderous bloodbath, many Israelis have demanded that the army "push on and finish the job".
I have watched and read many many interviews with Israelis wh have said there is no room for any non-Jews.
What's your point?
As far as I can see, one bunch of crazies are saying what they would do if they had their way, another bunch of crazies have been doing it for the last three weeks.
Let me see - eenie, meenie, miny.....
For crying out loud John - we've covered this ground - why not peep your head out of your bunker and see what is happening, not what might happen.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 05:24 PM

"The lesson that it was nowhere near enough."
.,,.
Eh, Jim? I can only take this to mean that Israel should now present Hamas with some more of its territory to fire some more rockets from? If that isn't what it means, then what is?

In fact, Jim, would you be pleased if Israel were after all to be wiped off the map? You might reply that IYO it should never have existed in the first place [is that your opinion, in fact? Honest, now?*]. But one can only start from here, as the well known yokel asked the way couldn't quite grasp. And there it is, and is not voluntarily about to go away.

So, seriously -- what would you?

Mmmmm?

≈M≈

*and for Christ's sake leave lip·service and all such tendentious abuse out of your reply, & just give us a straight answer to a straight question for once

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 04:30 AM

"Eh, Jim? I can only take this to mean that Israel should now present Hamas with some more of its territory to fire some more rockets from?"
Then why not succumb to the wishes of the extremists - cut down all their fruit trees, break all their cameras and drive them out into the middle of the desert?
"In fact, Jim, would you be pleased if Israel were after all to be wiped off the map?"
You know damn well I wouldn't, and you are scraping the bottom of the barrel to suggest it
You have my suggestion - you sneer at it and have none of your own, so you throw your lot in with what is happening at present
Sorry Mike - this really is beneath you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 05:06 AM

What 'suggestion' of yours have I got? repeat it, please.

I am not 'throwing in my lot' with anything or anyone. I am watching what is happening with a feeling of absolute helpless horror; not unmixed with amazement at all the people
--are you one? another honest answer please--
who will make a moral equivalence between the entity who have published their intention to wipe the other, and all it adherents & co-religionists worldwide, off the face of the earth; and the other lot who are trying to defend themselves from their doing so.

But you haven't answered my main question; only the subsidiary one. So, again Jim:

Is it your opinion that Israel should never have been allowed to exist in the first place -- Honest, now? Just a simple yes or a no will do...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 05:57 AM

... and that not meant altogether as a trick question, Jim. I wonder myself, sometimes, whether I would have striven so to bring it about in my youth if I could have foreseen how it was all going to turn out. Seemed, as they say, a good idea at the time. But now constantly ask myself whether it really was so good an idea after all, or if we'd be better off if it hadn't happened. Blowed if I know the answer. Still, I say again, there it is and isn't going anywhere, so the questions can only be speculative whatiffery at that...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 06:10 AM

"What 'suggestion' of yours have I got? repeat it, please."
That the U,N. should be given the job of conducting peace talks and until that happens they should send in a peace force to end this carnage.
Yesterday Israel shelled another U.N. refuge centre - same old same old loss of life.
They claimed to be targeting 2 Hamas fighters driving past on a motor cycle, but as whoever it was was blown to smithereens, we'll never know who they were
Ban Ky Moon has described it as "a criminal act"
We are still awaiting the result of another attack on a U.N Centre which killed 17 and wounded over 100.
It seems that what the Israelis are doing is slaughtering civilians then    saying "t was Hamas's fault for being there" - no evidence required.
Last week, they bombed a home, wiping out an entire family - five children, including a new-born baby (a future Hamas fighter, no doubt).
An Israeli ambassador told an audience of Americans that Israel should get a Nobel Peace Prize for the number of lives it has saved by exercising "restraint" - sicker and sicker.
A leading clergyman in Dublin had denounced Israel as war criminals that should be put on trial for its crimes
The times they certainly are a-changing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 07:08 AM

The BBC journalist at the site said the impact was 30m outside the wall surrounding the school grounds.
Injured people filmed at the scene all happened to be young men.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 07:11 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28628682

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 08:01 AM

Clueless Kerry plays into hands of Hamas

— John Kerry is upset by heavy criticism from Israelis — left, right and center — of his recent cease-fire diplomacy. But that's only half the story. More significant is the consternation of America's Arab partners, starting with the president of the Palestinian Authority. Mahmoud Abbas was stunned that Kerry would fly off to Paris to negotiate with Hamas allies Qatar and Turkey in talks that excluded the PA and Egypt.

The talks also undermined Egypt's cease-fire proposal, which Israel had accepted and Hamas rejected. "Kerry tried through his latest plan to destroy the Egyptian bid," charged a senior Palestinian official quoted in the Arab daily Asharq Al-Awsat — a peace plan that the PA itself had supported.

It gets worse. Kerry did not just trample an Egyptian initiative. It was backed by the entire Arab League and specifically praised by Saudi Arabia. With the exception of Qatar — more a bank than a country — the Arabs are unanimous in wanting to see Hamas weakened, if not overthrown. The cease-fire they backed would have denied Hamas any reward for starting this war, while what Kerry brought back from Paris granted practically all of its demands.

Which is what provoked the severe criticism Kerry received at home, including from (among others) the scrupulously independent Washington Post columnist David Ignatius, who called Kerry's intervention a blunder.

Kerry seems oblivious to the strategic reality that Hamas launched its rockets in the hope not of defeating Israel but ending its intra-Arab isolation (which it brilliantly achieves in the Qatar-Turkey peace proposal). Hamas' radicalism has alienated nearly all of its Arab neighbors.

• Egypt cut off Gaza — indeed blockaded it — because of Hamas' support for the Muslim Brotherhood and terror attacks on Egyptian soldiers in Sinai.

• Fatah, the main element of the Palestinian Authority, is a bitter enemy, particularly since its Gaza members were terrorized, kneecapped, expelled and/or killed when Hamas seized Gaza in a 2007 coup.

• Hamas is non grata in Syria, where it had been previously headquartered, for supporting the anti-government rebels.

• Hamas is deeply opposed by Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states who see it, correctly, as yet another branch of the Islamist movement that threatens relatively moderate pro-Western Arab states.

Kerry seems not to understand that the Arab League backed the Egyptian cease-fire, which would have left Hamas weak and isolated, to ensure that Hamas didn't emerge from this war strengthened and enhanced.

Why didn't Kerry just stay home and declare unequivocal U.S. support for the Egyptian/Arab League plan? Instead, he flies off to Paris and sends Jerusalem a package of victories for Hamas: lifting the blockade from Egypt, opening the border with Israel, showering millions of foreign cash to pay the salaries of the 43,000 (!) government workers that the near-insolvent Hamas cannot.

Forget about Israeli interests. Forget about Arab interests. The American interest is to endorse and solidify this emerging axis of moderate pro-American partners (Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and other Gulf states, and the Palestinian Authority) intent on seeing Islamist radicalism blunted and ultimately defanged.

Yet America's own secretary of state doesn't see it. Speaking of Hamas-run Gaza, Kerry actually said in Paris: "The Palestinians can't have a cease-fire in which they think the status quo is going to stay." What must change? Gazans need "goods that can come in and out … a life that is free from the current restraints."

But the only reason for those "restraints," for goods unable to come in and out, is that for a decade Hamas has used this commerce to import and develop weapons for making war on Israel.

Remember the complaints that the heartless Israelis were not allowing enough imports of concrete for schools and hospitals? Well, now we know where the concrete went — into an astonishingly vast array of tunnels for infiltrating neighboring Israeli villages and killing civilians.

Lifting the blockade would mean a flood of arms, rockets, missile parts and other implements of terror for Hamas. What is an American secretary of state doing asserting that Hamas cannot cease fire unless it gets that?

Moreover, the fire from which Hamas will not cease consists of deliberate rocket attacks on Israeli cities — by definition, a war crime.

Whatever his intent, Kerry legitimized Hamas' war criminality. Which makes his advocacy of Hamas' terms not just a strategic blunder — enhancing an American-designated terror group just when a wall-to-wall Arab front wants to see it gone — but a moral disgrace.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-kerry-mideast-clueless-krauthammer-oped-0804-20140804-column.html

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 08:19 AM

Jimmy boy,

"Quoting Islamic extremism is no more relevant that... "


WE ARE QUOTING HAMAS.

Which YOU claim was elected by the Gazans.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ringer
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 09:23 AM

"WE ARE QUOTING HAMAS. Which YOU claim was elected by the Gazans."

Er.. are you saying it wasn't, beardedbruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 09:24 AM

But for all the author's moral outrage -- outrage that is mirrored now across the world -- he declined to address the central charge that has been heard repeatedly over the years: How can Palestinian parents continue to support leaders within their community who would deliberately use their children as human shields? The fact that this Hamas war was provoked more to elevate Hamas' own standing than to achieve any concrete results -- beyond lifting an economic isolation that Hamas itself provoked -- makes the question of Palestinian passivity in that regard all the more troubling. There is nothing new about Hamas' tactics, and its leaders have been upfront about their willingness to sacrifice Palestinian children -- along with the rest of the civilian population -- in pursuit of their own strategic goals. Even as we watch image after image of stricken Palestinians mourning their dead children, we hear the corresponding words of a Hamas official: "What are 200 martyrs compared with lifting the siege?" Indeed, according to a paper in the Journal of Palestine Studies, Hamas--the elected government of Palestinians in Gaza--willfully sacrificed more that 160 Gazan children before any fighting in the digging of the tunnels themselves.

Within the progressive Jewish world -- where the anguish expressed in Golda Meir's words is deeply felt -- there is always an outcry when Israeli bombs kill Palestinian civilians, both out of moral outrage for the death and destruction and because of the ultimate bankruptcy of an Israeli strategy for which there is no endgame. But with each successive conflict, as Hamas missiles reach deeper into the country and the tunnels are deeper and longer, those voices become less vocal. While for some the broader conflicts in the region have emphasized the importance of pressuring Israel to remove settlements from confiscated Palestinian lands and live within its internationally accepted borders, for others the emergence of ISIS has only emphasized the long history of conflicts in the region and made the Hamas commitment to the destruction of Israel the sine qua non of the conflict. It is neither a metaphor nor a bargaining chip.

It is hard for many to accept the implications of that stance, but with each war Hamas aids our understanding and acceptance of their commitment. Indeed, Hamas has achieved what Bibi Netanyahu could not: it has forced progressive Jews to understand, if not accept, the logic of Israeli policies that they have long fought. Progressive Jews might have objected to Israel blocking the shipments of building materials and concrete into Gaza, but in this war the world has seen the complex network of tunnels built with an estimated six hundred thousand tons of concrete that we were told was urgently needed for schools and hospitals that were never built. Progressive Jews might have objected that Israeli was needlessly undermining Gaza economic development by preventing the development of a Gaza port, but the vast store of missiles is evidence that the boarded ships found to be filled with armaments intended to be used to kill Israelis were but the tip of the iceberg. Thus, the voices on the Jewish left have become muted.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-paul/what-part-of-hamas-strate_b_5644341.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 09:25 AM

Are YOU saying it WAS?



How many opponents do you throw off a building to win a Palestinian election?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 09:48 AM

Ah, yes, Jim: your suggestion is a good one indeed. But, tho I think the Israelis might be persuaded to come to the UN conference table if the other side would too, I can't see the latter doing so -- or sticking by the terms of any 'agreement' that might be made. Who, after all, has broken every ceasefire to date? Their explicit policy -- indeed their declared raison-d'être -- is the complete destruction, not just of Israel, but of entire Jewry worldwide. They have even alienated all their natural support within the Arab world by such intransigence. And you think they'll meekly come to confer when the UN snaps its fingers. What's to 'negotiate', with such a basic declaration as instanced above anyhow? & re this UN 'peace force' to enforce ceasefire: are troops representing the UN to go in, fully armed, & fight the two sides to a standstill; or how is it to be encompassed?

Just asking

≈M≈

& how about an answer to that other question I have now asked you twice, in bold letters yet? Answer! Answer!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 10:03 AM

Can they be met half way?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: eddie1
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 10:16 AM

Hate to throw something else into this stinking melting-pot but.....

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/israels-bedouin-caught-between-iron-dome-and-hamas/375428/

This is a group of whom we hear little or nothing! Yet more suffering in this crazy war. In 2010 I interviewed Hala, a young Bedouin woman living in the Negev. Their life was bad enough then - but far worse now!

http://www.mixcloud.com/Communitymatters/sidreh/

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 10:24 AM

An Israeli military spokeswoman said she was checking the refugee camp attack. She said four rockets had been fired from Gaza since the truce started and two had crashed inside Israel. There were no reports of casualties or damage.


OK stooges:

What is 4 - 2 =?


Get an answer yet?



The OBSERVED misfire rate on Hamas rockets is 20-30% hitting Gaza overall.

The misfired missiles are ANTI-PERSONNEL warheads, designed to kill civilians.

The sources that the stooges keep giving NEVER state that ANY Gazans are killed by these missiles ( that kill Israelis when they are not in shelters) .

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 10:55 AM

"Jim, Israel is not cutting bits off Gaza."

A three kilometre strip of Gaza, where Israel has ordered the inhabitants to leave has been, and is being, reduced to heaps of rubble.

Sounds like carving chunks off to me.

None of you one eyed apologists have so far had the guts to give a straight answer to the question:

If YOUR homeland were surrounded by barbed wire and guns, and totally cut off from any outside contact, except by permission of those holding the guns, what would YOU do?

Tamely submit, or resist however ineffectually?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 10:56 AM

Sorry! Last guest post was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 11:02 AM

"Then they left Gaza to govern itself. So the Palestinian population organised and held free elections."

INSIDE the barbed wire controlled by the IDF.

Such freedom! Wow!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 11:10 AM

"WE ARE QUOTING HAMAS."
Didn't say you weren't - just said the statement was no more or less extreme than that of Israel - and certainly not of Israel's actions.
Extremist groups have threatened to wipe out Jews - Israelis atr acually in the process of wiping out Arabs - and have been for a long time.
I find the practice of blaming what is happening in Israel on the Jews - you do it all the time, which puts you on par with the worst of Islamic extremism
"The sources that the stooges keep giving NEVER state that ANY Gazans are killed by these missiles"
Neither does any other source apart from the Israeli propaganda machine and there are enough neutral observers around to see what's what (whoops, sorry - everybody who criticises Israel is automatically Antisemitic)
"How many opponents do you throw off a building to win a Palestinian election?"
About as many residents of Israel who are considered second-rate citizens because they worship at the wrong church.
INEQUALITY REPORT
Sorry Blundering Brucie - must try harder.
"But, tho I think the Israelis might be persuaded to come to the UN conference table..."
Don't know what gives you that impression, especially in the light of their having deliberately sabotaged the last round of peace talks
As far as Hamas is concerned, I have no doubt that they realise that they can't win a shooting war with Israel - a removal of the blockade and the walls would be a tremendous victory for them - as far as I'm concerned, it would be a betrayal of the Gazan's to accept anything less.
The Israelis could then claim their victory by having demolished the tunnels - faces saved all round.
"This is a group of whom we hear little or nothing!"
Not here Eddie - but some people choose to ignore their plight in all this.
Israel has been systematically ethnically cleansing the Bedouins for some years now - they have twice attempted to evict whole communities and re-house them on toxic land, they have driven settled Bedouins off ther homesteads with chemical sprays and water cannons in order to make way for Israeli settlers... a persecuted people indeed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 11:15 AM

"In fact, Jim, would you be pleased if Israel were after all to be wiped off the map?"

No fair MtheGM! Jim has NEVER indicated any such feeling, as you WELL know.

In fact, Mike, would you be pleased if Israel were after all to wipe the Palestinians of the map, so there'd finally be peaceful extra land for Israeli settlers?

And before you answer, that is a rhetorical question, but no more insulting of YOU than YOU were of JIM!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 11:27 AM

"Injured people filmed at the scene all happened to be young men."

Devious and inane all in one!

Unless those young men were armed, uniformed, or engaged in operating a rocket launcher, you have absolutely NO basis for denying that they are civilians, other than your intention to imply that all young men are militants.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 11:34 AM

To quote YOU, Jimmy Boy

Utter CRAP. There are reports here from those reporters who were prevented from reporting the Hamas launches and the effect of Hamas rockets on Gaza. YOUR inability to read simple statements is YOUR problem, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 11:37 AM

Jim, Israel left ALL of Gaza and has made clear it wants NONE of it.

It has to take control of that strip to destroy the tunnels as they are legally entitled to do in self defence because the tunnels were built to attack Israel.

Israel is not carving chunks off Gaza.
Gaza has no reason to attack Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 11:43 AM

Troubadour, in previous incursions Hamas fighters were passed off as civilian casualties.

That is the likeliest explanation for what is happening now.
Why do you think there are so many more young men than in the general population?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 12:11 PM

Your 1102 post was the post of a fool, I fear, Troub. I was talking of the withdrawal of 2005; there was no barbed wire in evidence then. It was subsequently erected by those inside, not by those who had left.

Go back to plucking your lute, eh!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 01:46 PM

Netanjahu,Bennett,Liebermann & co. need Hamas in order to justify their attitudes, politics etc.......just as Hamas needs Netanjahu, Bennett, Liebermann & co. in order to justify their attitudes, politics.........a vicious circle.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 01:51 PM

"There are reports here from those reporters who were prevented from reporting the Hamas launches and the effect of Hamas rockets on Gaza."
There are equally reports of those covering the Israeli side - two were reported to have died in mysterious circumstances
There have been reports of 62 violations against journalists by Israeli forces, including the bombing of two press cars and 14 bombs being dropped on media centres
In all, nine deaths and thirteen injuries have been recorded.
Crap indeed.
Reports from U.N. volunteers working in refugee centres attacked by Israelis, with large losses of life, have specifically decalred that not only had they been infored of the refugee status of the centres and the exact co-ordinates ON 17 occasions, but they had acknowledged and orded the occupants to stay put - then they shelled the buildings.
"Israel left ALL of Gaza and has made clear it wants NONE of it."
You are now beginning to soung like Lord Haw-Haw on speed
Having been presented with a report and photographs of Israeli fired flchette missiles, you have just denied outright their existence and said the phtofraps (dart-shaped missiles) were Hamas shrapnel - the ******* Israelis haven't even claimed this - you have invented it as an excuse for using maiming and lethal weapons on civilians.
You really haven't been taking your meds, have you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 02:00 PM

Jimmy,

Since you NEVER provide any source for your claims, it is difficult to think that they are true ( i.e., factual, and not a figment of your imagination).

I will wait for your sources- that should be easy to put up here IF they are real.

The posted reports here of journalists that were kept silent by Hamas until they left Gaza HAVE had those sources- Are you capable of providing SOME reasonable support for your claims?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 02:26 PM

I will wait for your sources- that should be easy to put up here IF they are real.

Et tu, Bullshot.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 02:47 PM

Greggie,

You need to actually learn to read sometime.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 02:55 PM

Jim, no reliable source has reported flechette use and no such casualties have occurred.

Your linked piece referred to "nail shrapnel."
That could only be from locally manufactured warheads.
Commercially produced munitions would not contain nails.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 07:20 PM

IDF forces in the Gaza Strip found a Hamas manual on "Urban Warfare," which belonged to the Shuja'iya Brigade of Hamas' military wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades. The manual explains how the civilian population can be used against IDF forces and reveals that Hamas knows the IDF is committed to minimizing harm to civilians.

Throughout Operation Protective Edge, Hamas has continuously used the civilian population of Gaza as human shields. The discovery of a Hamas "urban warfare" manual by IDF forces reveals that Hamas' callous use of the Gazan population was intentional and preplanned.

This Hamas urban warfare manual exposes two truths: (1) The terror group knows full well that the IDF will do what it can to limit civilian casualties. (2) The terror group exploits these efforts by using civilians as human shields against advancing IDF forces.

The Manual

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 08:41 PM

Jim, no reliable source

Define "reliable source", FKWT.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 10:55 PM

The first time I witnessed Hamas's hatred of Jews manifest itself in large-scale, fatal violence was in late July of 1997, when two of the group's suicide bombers detonated themselves in an open-air market in West Jerusalem. The attack took 16 lives, and injured 178. I happened to be only a few blocks from the market at the time of the attack, and arrived shortly after the paramedics and firefighters. Over the next hours, a scene unfolded that I would see again and again: screaming relatives; members of the Orthodox burial society scraping flesh off walls; the ground covered in blood and viscera. I remember another Hamas attack, on a bus in downtown Jerusalem, in which body parts of children were blown into the street by the force of the blast. At yet another bombing, I was with rescue workers as they recovered a human arm stuck high up in a tree.

After each of these attacks, Hamas leaders issued blood-curdling statements claiming credit, and promising more death. "The Jews will lose because they crave life but a true Muslim loves death," a former Hamas leader, Abdel-Aziz Rantisi, told me in an interview in 2002. In the same interview he made the following imperishable statement: "People always talk about what the Germans did to the Jews, but the true question is, 'What did the Jews do to the Germans?'"

What Would Hamas Do If It Could Do Whatever It Wanted?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 11:07 PM

Israel is not without blame, and should be held accountable for unnecessary civilian casualties. Yet it is important to stress that Hamas is engaged in an Islamic holy war dedicated to exterminating the Jews. Those who blame Israel first must ask themselves exactly what would they do if they were in Israel's place? What would they do if faced with religious terrorists dedicated to exterminating their people?

Progressive Secular Humanist

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 03:57 AM

"Jim, no reliable source has reported flechette use and no such casualties have occurred."
Reported worldwide and not denied, or even responded to by Israel is evidence enough for most people
The fact that you have decided off your own bat to deny it on Israel's behalf and blame fragments from Hamas missiles says everything that needs to be said about you.
THESE STATEMENTS ARE YOURS AND YOURS ALONE - EVEN ISRAEL HAS NOT GOT ROUND TO INVENTING THEM YET - THEY ARE YOUR INVENTIONS ENTIRELY - YOU ARE ONE SICK, FANATICAL INDIVIDUAL WHO APPEARS TO HAVE APPOINTED YOURSELF AN UNOFFICIAL SPOKESMAN FOR A FASCIST REGIME
"Israel calling, Israel calling" ... spooky or what?
"Since you NEVER provide any source for your claims, it is difficult to think that they are true"
Blustering Brucie:
I always provide evidence for what I say - you, on the other hand shout and bluff your way through your extremist Zionist rhetoric.
I have become very tired and sickened of you nasty bunch of inhuman fanatics who have dedicated your time to supporting war crimes and atrocities and ignoring the wanton murder of innocent human beings by a State that not only threatens the safety of the world, but has destroyed the dream of the Jewish people with its thuggery.
The example that you and your little band of ranters set of what Isreal has become is beyond value: Keith - inventing propaganda as he goes along; you, posting as if you were addressing a Nuremberg Rally; and Little Booboo... well what can one say about him apart from his entertainment value - a sort of cross between Winnie the Pooh and Chuckie.
You have set out to defend a atrocity in which approaching 2,000 people, mainly non combatants have been slaughtered by bombs, heavy artillery and sophisticated weaponry - men women and children of all ages and conditions of health.
They have been instructed to flee into shelter by their attackers then those shelters have been shelled and bombed.
Hospitals have been given ten minutes to evacuate their staff and patients and then destroyed
Homes have been bombed wiping out entire families still occupying them.
Hospitals, schools, medical centres, care homes..... all fair game for the thugs.
Reports on what has happened to journalists at the hands of our brave Israeli boys have been ongoing throughout this obscenity - I summed up what I remembered.
THIS IS A MORE RECENT ONE
That is not to say these occurences haven't been happening on both sides, of course they have - but you and yours, distinct from everyone else here, have formed yourself into a gallant band to take sides and defend this shit and show how it's all been about an impoverished, Third World State, ghettoised by decades of aggression, which has proved such a powerful threat to poor, vulnerable Israel that it has been necessary to wipe out as many of them as possible, leaving the survivors devastated and homeless, destroying their health facilities and education centres and resources for every-day living.
They are thugs and you are supporting thuggery and will continue to do so because you are no better than they are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 05:41 AM

"Those who blame Israel first must ask themselves exactly what would they do if they were in Israel's place? What would they do if faced with religious terrorists dedicated to exterminating their people?"

Why must they, when you and all the other Israel supporters haven't yet shown the courage to answer the reverse.

What would YOU do if your country were besieged and bombed to rubble by a more powerful neighbour?

Your lack of willingness to answer would seem a sufficient answer in itself.

You would support resistance,but to admit that would destroy your fanatically pro Israel argument.

Keep on sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting LA LA LA!

Then you won't have to hear about dying women and children.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 05:50 AM

"IDF forces in the Gaza Strip found a Hamas manual on "Urban Warfare,""

According to the IDF, and of course they would never DREAM of posting lying propaganda!

Grow up!

They are no more and no less likely to lie than Hamas, and if what the Israli government says about the missiles and ordnance they've destroyed is true, why are the world's news media not covered with photos and film of these.

Surely Israel would be smart enough to ensure that their claims would be indisputably proven.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 07:07 AM

Reported worldwide and not denied,

It was reported that "a Palestinian human rights group accused."
No journalist from any reputable news agency has done more than report that accusation, and that is all it is.
Israel does not bother to dignify with denial all the stories made up about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 07:16 AM

Jimmy,

" always provide evidence for what I say -"

THIS is another of your consistent lies- YOU state things WITHOUT giving any supporting link, and TELL us that it HAS to be believed because Hamas said so.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:05 AM

Over 3200 Hamas anti-personnel warhead rockets so far…


600 to 900 have landed (and blown up ) in Gaza.

Hamas has not yet reported ONE casualty from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:14 AM

Baroness Warsi has just resigned from the government in disgust at The Prime Minister's reluctance to openly denounce Israel. Even those who Keith can't denounce as lefty liberals feel credibility is no longer there.

Of course, he could pount out that is a woman. He could say she is a Muslim. He has to say though that she was the minister responsible for faith issues, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Sikh,, Uncle Tom Cobbely and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:19 AM

No journalist from any reputable news agency has done more than report that accusation"
A repeat of my reply from the other thread
Doesn't matter a toss - they've used them before, they have used them again - why shouldn't they.
You have given your blessing of their use
What more evidence can we need?
You are an arse-licking moron who doesn't even wait for the arse you are licking to fart before claiming it doesn't smell.
I suppose you know Lady Varsi has resigned from the Government in protest to the British Government's arse-licking approach to Gaza?
"THIS is another of your consistent lies- YOU state things WITHOUT giving any supporting link, and TELL us that it HAS to be believed because Hamas said so."
Qiire honestly, Juicy Brucie - I really don't mind being called a liar by someone of supports the wiping out of an entire people after having previously proposed that they "have no right to live where they live and should be driven into the desert to let their own kind take care of them"
Keep up the good work
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:26 AM

By the way Keith - on what authority are you denying a press report that has been circulated internationally on something Israel has not denied - have you been appointed a spokesman on their behalf - or is this jut part of your previously stated infallibility?
Do you not realise what an arse-liking moron it makes you look?
You appear to have no self respect or sense of the ridiculous
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:34 AM

Lt. Col. Peter Lerner, the Israeli military spokesman, said that Israel had completed the destruction of "approximately 32 tunnels" built by Hamas into Israel, and that Israeli forces had killed "approximately 900 militants in combat." He said that Israel had destroyed more than 3,000 rockets belonging to Hamas and its ally Islamic Jihad, that those groups had launched more than 3,300 rockets toward Israel, and that Israel believed they had remaining stocks of 3,000 rockets.

Cease Fire Begins

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:39 AM

"Baroness Warsi has just resigned from the government...."

"It's a strange world when a Tory Cabinet minister resigns because a Tory Government is not being supportive enough of terrorists. Her appointment was nothing but tokenism anyway, and tokenism nearly always ends badly."

Adam Carr

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:43 AM

What more evidence can we need?

More than just an accusation from some random Palestinian group!

Re. Warsi, I did know that many people do not support Israel on this.
Given the reporting, it is amazing anyone does!

Washington Post.
"The media has engaged in journalistic malpractice by reporting casualty figures for civilians coming from Gaza as gospel. The figures come from the Gazan Ministry of Health, which is controlled by Hamas. The Ministry of Health counts everyone not in uniform as a civilian. Most Hamas fighters don't wear uniforms. The UN is sometimes sourced for the figures, but the UN gets its figures from … the Gazan Ministry of Health. Contrary to early reports that 80% or so of the early casualties were civilians, Al-Jazeera published names and ages, and about 3/4 were men of fighting age (16-50), compared to a rough estimate of 20% of the Gazan population (40% to 50% of which is fourteen and under). Some of those men were undoubtedly civilians, but it strains credulity to believe that 80% of the casualties were civilian but just-so-happened to be overwhelmingly fighting-age men. (Here's the most recent analysis from the IsraellyCool blog). For that matter, how do we know that the Minsitry of Health isn't counting deaths from natural causes as deaths from Israeli actions?"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/07/26/some-israel-gaza-notes/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 09:29 AM

As for racism, people often point out how peculiar it is that the Jewish state seems to arouse a level of condemnation that never seems to apply equally elsewhere. But perhaps the real racism is the indifference to Muslim suffering around the world when the person dropping the bomb or pulling the trigger is another Muslim. A world that makes a fetish of the alleged guilt of Israel is also a world that holds too much Muslim life cheap.

Wall Street Journal