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german marches

DigiTrad:
A MIGHTY FORTRESS IS OUR GOD
BRAHMS' LULLABY
BUMM! BUMM!! BUMM!!!
CORPORAL SCHNAPPS
DIE GEDANKEN SIND FREI
DIE GUTE KAMERAD
DIE LAPPEN HOCH
DIE MOORSOLDATEN
EDELWEISS
GORCH FOCK LIED
HANS BEIMLER
HEISE, ALL
LILI MARLEEN
MARIA DURCH EIN DORNWALD GING
ODE TO JOY (GERMAN)
YAW, YAW, YAW


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GUEST 17 Mar 02 - 11:34 PM
GUEST 17 Mar 02 - 11:36 PM
Sorcha 17 Mar 02 - 11:45 PM
GUEST 17 Mar 02 - 11:50 PM
Sorcha 18 Mar 02 - 12:19 AM
greg stephens 18 Mar 02 - 04:35 AM
greg stephens 18 Mar 02 - 04:44 AM
Lanfranc 18 Mar 02 - 05:36 AM
greg stephens 18 Mar 02 - 05:44 AM
Wolfgang 18 Mar 02 - 06:08 AM
sledge 18 Mar 02 - 07:24 AM
GUEST 18 Mar 02 - 07:41 AM
Wilfried Schaum 18 Mar 02 - 11:25 AM
Mary in Kentucky 18 Mar 02 - 12:36 PM
Wilfried Schaum 19 Mar 02 - 02:49 AM
Mary in Kentucky 19 Mar 02 - 08:35 AM
Rollo 19 Mar 02 - 05:01 PM
Mary in Kentucky 19 Mar 02 - 06:12 PM
Wilfried Schaum 20 Mar 02 - 06:12 AM
GUEST,ta2 20 Mar 02 - 08:44 AM
Mary in Kentucky 20 Mar 02 - 08:57 AM
Wilfried Schaum 20 Mar 02 - 09:49 AM
Mary in Kentucky 20 Mar 02 - 09:53 AM
Wolfgang 20 Mar 02 - 12:53 PM
Big John 20 Mar 02 - 08:54 PM
Big John 20 Mar 02 - 09:06 PM
Rick Fielding 20 Mar 02 - 11:20 PM
GUEST,Billy 21 Mar 02 - 01:28 AM
Wilfried Schaum 21 Mar 02 - 02:38 AM
GUEST,Al 21 Mar 02 - 11:57 PM
toadfrog 22 Mar 02 - 12:53 AM
Wilfried Schaum 22 Mar 02 - 03:25 AM
Wilfried Schaum 22 Mar 02 - 03:31 AM
Lanfranc 22 Mar 02 - 03:58 AM
Wilfried Schaum 22 Mar 02 - 06:51 AM
GUEST,Hellfather 22 Mar 02 - 04:57 PM
Kenny B (inactive) 22 Mar 02 - 05:19 PM
The Walrus 22 Mar 02 - 06:19 PM
toadfrog 22 Mar 02 - 09:29 PM
InOBU 22 Mar 02 - 09:49 PM
toadfrog 23 Mar 02 - 09:50 PM
greg stephens 23 Mar 02 - 09:55 PM
Wilfried Schaum 24 Mar 02 - 05:15 AM
Wilfried Schaum 24 Mar 02 - 05:35 AM
Rollo 24 Mar 02 - 09:21 AM
Wilfried Schaum 24 Mar 02 - 09:56 AM
Wolfgang 25 Mar 02 - 04:08 AM
Lanfranc 25 Mar 02 - 01:20 PM
toadfrog 25 Mar 02 - 10:35 PM
Wolfgang 26 Mar 02 - 05:40 AM
toadfrog 26 Mar 02 - 01:48 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 26 Mar 02 - 02:08 PM
Lanfranc 26 Mar 02 - 05:55 PM
Wilfried Schaum 27 Mar 02 - 02:44 AM
toadfrog 27 Mar 02 - 08:44 PM
The Walrus 28 Mar 02 - 09:01 PM
Wilfried Schaum 29 Mar 02 - 02:10 PM
toadfrog 30 Mar 02 - 12:47 AM
MudGuard 30 Mar 02 - 11:21 AM
toadfrog 30 Mar 02 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,Steve 30 Mar 02 - 07:27 PM
Wilfried Schaum 01 Apr 02 - 08:59 AM
MudGuard 01 Apr 02 - 10:03 AM
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Subject: german marches
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 11:34 PM


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Subject: RE: german marching songs
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 11:36 PM


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 11:45 PM

?


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Subject: RE: german marches/drinking songs
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 11:50 PM


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:19 AM

&?


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 04:35 AM

Vairy interesting


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 04:44 AM

Music of a strongly rhythmic nature, normally in 2/4 or 4/4 time, originating in northern Europe in the area between the Netherlands and Poland.Historically used to facilitate the ambulatory movement of groups of military personnel.


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Lanfranc
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 05:36 AM

but stupid!


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 05:44 AM

Come on, GUEST. what is this thread meant to be about? You're being very frustrating!


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 06:08 AM

German Marches are usually fairly wet. But in between there are warm days which give you a taste of the coming spring. Today, for instance, the magnolias start to open up over here.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: sledge
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:24 AM

It could be a geographical statement, after all we have the welsh marches and so on.

Sledge


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:41 AM

Well, Sledge, that's a very interesting theory, but I have to say I find it unconvincing, given that GUEST renames the thread in his second and third postings, referring to "marching songs" and "drinking songs". But who knows, we'll just have to wait till Herr Guest gets thrown out of the bierkeller and gets back to his computer.


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 11:25 AM

There is a great difference between marches and marching songs in army practice, albeit the older songs could have incented the instrumental marches.
In former times marches were played by the fifes and drums for the infantry and all other services except the cavalry who were entitled to the royal brass: trumpets and kettle drums; later on all services were entitled to brass bands, even bloody seamen and aviators. German Marches are usually played in 4/4, 2/4, 2/2 or 6/8 (1 pace for every 3 eights).
Marching songs can be traditional folk songs or songs written specially for this purpose, especially with a strong propagandist bias (especially in the 3rd Reich). They are not played by the band, but sung by the troops when marching without a band, or when they've inhaled a good lot of ebriating fluids in the barracks or abroad.
A lot of folk songs in 3/4 were changed to a combination of 6/4 and 4/4. A good example you can find at my site http://www.uni-giessen.de/~gb1053/mudcat.htm#mond. This song was originally tradited in 3/4 and transformed for the howling of marching grunts (did it myself).
Standard reference work about history and collections of German Army Marches is:
Armeemärsche / Joachim Toeche-Mittler. - Stuttgart : Spemann, 19XX [3 vols., 1966-1975]
Standard collection in the "Prussian Army and the Federal Contingents" [official name of the so called "Imperial German Army"]: Heeresmärsche I-III. They are divided according to the different purposes: Parade, Present Arms, Defilee. Mounted troops also had marches for pace, trot and gallop.
German marches were influenced by the most valiant enemy in centuries XVII-XVIII, the Turks. Beethoven's 3 famous Turkish Marches are still played by Bundeswehr bands, and Mozart, Haydn and others are known to have written Turkish marches in their time.
Enough now; I'm just longing to strap my pistol again and start to march before my Federal Reserves platoon as in former times, but alas ... medical discharge.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:36 PM

Thanks, Wilfried. I'm enjoying your site!

Re: Beethoven's Turkish Marches
Listen to his Turkish March from the Ruins of Athens here. [http://www.midiworld.com/cmc/ludwig.html] I don't link dirctly to the midis at this site, so you'll have to scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Now have we talked about marshes yet? Are they the same in Germany as elsewhere? We don't have many in Kentucky.


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:49 AM

Thanks, Mary, for the encouragement and the link to a piece I didn't know of before. Since I have no sound card in my office I'm looking forward to listening this evening at home.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:35 AM

Your very welcome! I'm not sure of the original instrumentation for that piece. I played it on the piano when I was young and fell in love with it instantly.


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Rollo
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 05:01 PM

The German Marshes ("Marschen") are heavily settled because of the rich soil, but to the eye there isn`t much interesting, beside beautiful old farm houses (and quite much of them). Typical products around here are cabbage (Dittmarschen, northern Elbe area), flowers and grocery (Vierlande, southeast of Hamburg), apples and cherrys (Altes Land, southwest of Hamburg, a fantastic scenery in the springtime, because of the plantation trees blossoming), Milk (practically everywhere).

I recommend other types of wet lands to the tourist. There are beautiful bogs and fens, and the "Wattenmeer" of course (flat lands flooded by the tide).


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 06:12 PM

Sounds beautiful, but is there a Beethoven Marsh as beautiful as the one above?

...and I mistakenly said your instead of you're...I don't speak English as well as some of the other folks around here.;-)


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:12 AM

Well said, Mary!

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: GUEST,ta2
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:44 AM

The best of german marching songs is die fannen hoech.....which was a corruption of a traditional folk song. It's got some dodgy lyrics though about brownshirts and swastikas but the tune is good.......as long as you don't understand what the german words mean


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:57 AM

ta2, I think we had a similar discussion back when I was discovering Christmas Carols using various German folk tunes. I only hear the tune and the emotion expressed in musical language. (We were referring to Brahms' tunes.) Sometimes it is a blessing "not to understand." (or at least to be able to ignore the words)


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:49 AM

to tatoo:
Correct words: Die Fahne hoch, die Reihen fest geschlossen ... (Raise the flag and close your rank).
This is not a corruption of a German folk song, but a new text to a soldiers song. A phenomenon you often can observe is that there are more poets than composers, and so a well known tune often is used to introduce a new text and make it popular.
This practice is well known in hymnals; in the Lutheran Song Book we find the tunes of an old German Epic about Hildebrand, several love songs by Gastoldi and Regnart, a soldiers report about the assault and taking of Pavia in 1525 and so on. With his best known xmas song Luther himself uses a tune sung by travelling singers used to report the latest news.
I detest the entire Nazi gang, but I must confess: The tune of "Die Fahne hoch", the song of Hitler's SA (Storm Troops) is a wonderful tune for marching; the words are of a certain mastership, too.
The tune is still in use at a certain German Fire Department with totally different words; when they sang it and some drunken listeners joined in singing the Nazi words it made a big upheaval in the press.
I wouldn't say the tune is the best marching song; there are songs fitting equally or better for the purpose.
What Rollo says about the wonderful Marshes is right, too. He only forgot to tell you that they are NOT to use for marches. Tried it once, near Bremen - forget it.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:53 AM

*BG* Thanks, Wilfried! I've been searching all over for the meaning of fannen!


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 12:53 PM

Wilfried, would you call Der Abenteurer a soldiers song or is there still another song I don't know yet which was sung to the tune of 'Die Fahne hoch...'?

By the way, not just the whole song is forbidden to sing/play/print or whatever in Germany, also the tune alone or (depending upon context, of course) even the tune with other lyrics. Though I have yet to hear of somebody being fined for singing 'Der Abenteurer'.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Big John
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:54 PM

Amazing how a thread can develop from two blanks.


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Big John
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:06 PM

I have just checked my old LPs. I have one entitled Die 20 Grossten Marsche (I presume that means the 20 best marches). 1 Alte Kameraden, 2 Radetzky Marsch, 3 Preubens Gloria, 4 Fridericus Rex, 5 Badenweiler Marsch, 6 Parademarsch der 18er Husaren, 7 Marsch aus Petersburg, 8 Marsch des Yorkschen Korps, 9 Helenen Marsch 10 Grub and Kiel and 10 more. Play that lot on your uileann pipes!!!


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:20 PM

You folks have made viener schnitzel from nuttin'. Congratulations Wolfgang, a joke after my own heart!

Rick


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: GUEST,Billy
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 01:28 AM

OK! I want this thread closed and I want it closed now! We had enough bloody Germans marching in 1914-18 and 1939-45 to last us for a bloody long time! Stop this now!


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 02:38 AM

Wolfgang,

thanks for the link to the Abenteurer. No, it's not a soldier song. I only presumed the tune of Die Fahne hoch to be the tune of a soldier song since all military formations of the greater German parties (SA, Rotfront, Reichsbanner, Stahlhelm) used soldier tunes for their own songs.

Billy, the thread will be closed when mudcatters have discussed all open questions of their interest. Are you perhaps the guest who kicked it loose?

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 11:57 PM

Under the Double Eagle


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: toadfrog
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 12:53 AM

The Radetzky Marsch is Austrian, not german. So is Under the Double Eagle. I think Johann Strauss wrote both of them.
The Horst Wessel Lied cited above as "Die Fahne Hoch" is Nazi stuff and by definition not a good song. My vote for the best march is the Hohenfriedberger Marsch which I have on an old LP, Archiv No. 2533 059. Does anyone know if that ever came out as a CD?


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 03:25 AM

toadfrog,

the Hohenfriedberger (composed by the late Frederick II, king in Prussia) is on several CDs containing collections of German or international marches. Im writing from my office, will look it up this evening and post again on Monday.
The Prussian Musikmaster General A. Piefke used it as trio of his March Prussia's Glory (too much brass for my taste). In a wider sense you can subsume the Austrians under Germany, too. Nevertheless they formed a separate nation since 1803 and left the German Federation in 1866. After WWI, when they lost the non German parts of their empire, there was a strong movement to reunite with the German Reich; they named their new republic: German-Austria, but were soon cured of their longings when annected by Nazi Germany. To name the Radetzky March a German march is not utterly wrong, but to call it Austrian is better because of the great differences between the Prussian (Lots of brass an boom boom) and the Austrain (and other South German) marches, which are lighter and sometimes remind of dances (Strauss wrote a wonderful march using quadrilles, a form of joyous dances).
Nr 8 on your list was composed by Beethoven, first dedicated to Napoleon I, later on he changed his mind and dedicated it to General Yorck von Wartenburg. Originally it was called Zapfenstreichmarsch (tattoo march) Nr 1.
In assuming that the Groessten means the best or best known you are right.

Wilfried The Horst-Wessel-Lied is not a bad song only because it is Nazi stuff; from the standpoint of literary criticism it can be compared with the best tradition of traditional soldier songs. I hate Nazidom for all what they have to Germany, friends, and my family, but I stand to my judgment.

Big John,

Nr 10 in your list should read Gruss an Kiel (greatings to Kiel). Whenever you have to write this letter, dissolve it into two ss. By the way, the a, o, and us with dots you can dissolve into ae, oe, ue. It's a lot easier for your transatlantic Keyboard.


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 03:31 AM

Big John,

part of my letter was destroyed when sent.
Nr 8 on your list was composed by Beethoven as Zapfenstreichmarsch (Tattoo March) Nr 1, a typical "Turkish March" of the time. First he dedicated it to Napoleon I, later on he changed his mind and dedicated it to General Yorck von Wartenburg, reformer of the Prussian Army and one of the heroes of the Napoleonic wars.
Correction in my former post: greatings should read greetings.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Lanfranc
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 03:58 AM

I'm awfully pleased that no-one's mentioned "Wir Fahren Gegen England" yet, but that's possibly because, with new Celtic words, it has since been adopted as an Irish March!

Seriously, though, who was "Horst Wessel"? I have a vague memory that there is/was a sailing ship of that name. Perhaps that was the "Horst Vessel"!

Gruss Gott!

Alan


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 06:51 AM

Funny, Lanfranc, but no, Horst Wessel was a member of Hitler's Sturm-Abteilung (SA, tormmtroops, the military wing of the Nazi party, sometimes better street gangs) who wrote the official SA song. This song was considered as an anthem then and always was played after the official National Anthem.
He was allegedly killed by communists; some said, since he was a pimp in Berlin that he was not KIA for political reasons but for some other related to this profession. But may it be as it was : only dead nazis are good nazis.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: GUEST,Hellfather
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 04:57 PM

Wilfried! Horst Wessel was killed by Ali Höhner, he was a communist, but the story is, that H.W. and A. H. loved the same girl. That was the case of murdering, not a political murder. But Joseph Goebbels was the Gáuleiter of Berlin and then the story became a political background. Before 1930 Berlin was a "red" city, the domain of Germany's socialists.


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 05:19 PM

Under the Double Eagle was written by J F Wagner. ;>)


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: The Walrus
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 06:19 PM

Does anyone have the lyrics the song "Ansbach Dragoner" (sung to the Hohenfriedberger March)?
Two little anecdotes regarding German tunes:
It appears that in either 1945 or '46(-ish), the ceremony of the Trooping of the Colour was revived after the war. It appears that, in the haste to get the ceremony up and running, nobody had checked the music used. It is said that there were several cases of shock and appoplexy when they marched onto Horseguard's Parade to "Preussens Gloria".
A second "misplaced" use was a good few years ago when, at a Remberance Ceremony, the vicar had included the hymn "Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken" to the tune "Austria" - better known as the post Imperial, German National Anthem ("Deutchland Uber Alles/Deutcherleid), again, there was, shall we say, a "reaction" from some of the comgregation.

Regards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: toadfrog
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 09:29 PM

I would swear that there was a song in the church hymnal when I was a kid to the "Austria" (Kaiserquartett tune.

My liner notes say: "The Hohenfriedberger March was certainly not composed by Frederick, but was already in the repertoire of the Ansbach-Bayreuth Dragoon Regiment during the 18th Century." They state that Old Fritz displayed little interest in martial music. There is a march by Frederick on the disk, in which most of the instruments are flutes and appropriate for a parade of ants.


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 09:49 PM

When folks get tired of German marches... check out German/English maritime music! GOOD STUFF! See the John the Ferryman post!!! Larry


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: toadfrog
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 09:50 PM

Some marching songs I'm curious about. Are these essentially soldiers' songs, where do they come from, and are they considered respectable?

Ein Heller und ein Batzen
Erika
Westerwald
Maruschka (Everyone seems to know Maruschka, but I'd hesitate a long time before singing it to a Pole!)
Maerkischer Heide(This sounds innocent enough, but when I had a lot of German friends, they assured me it is not. Assuming all the songs are considered o.k. except Maerkischer Heide, as seems to be the case, how is it different from the others?


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 09:55 PM

This thread is chugging along very well, especially since we still dont know what the original poster was asking about


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 05:15 AM

Toadfrog,

the Hohenfriedberger is on a collection with 3 CDs labeld: Das Goldene Mrsch-Musik-Festival, produced 1995 by Widder-Musik, Wentorf bei Hamburg. It is Nr 7 of CD 33 099 3(A), here performed by the Federal Army Band 9 (The Airborne Division).
I'm sure you'll find it in other collections, but this is the one I own. Naturally there are more productions on black discs.

Walrus,

here the words of the Hohenfriedberger:

Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner
Friedrich der Große (Hohenfriedberger Marsch)

Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner, auf, Ansbach-Bayreuth!
Schnall um deinen Säbel und rüste dich zum Streit:
Prinz Karl ist erschienen auf Friedbergs Höh'n,
Sich das preußische Heer mal anzusehn.
/: Drum Kinder, seid lustig und allemal bereit:
Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner, auf, Ansbach-Bayreuth! :/

Hab'n sie keine Angst, Herr Oberst von Schwerin!
Ein preußischer Dragoner tut niemals flieh'n!
Und stünden sie noch so dicht auf Friedbergs Höh',
Wir reiten sie zusammen wie Frühlingsschnee.
/: Ob Säbel, Kanon, ob Kleingewehr uns dräut:
Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner, auf Ansbach-Bayreuth! :/

Halt, Ansbach-Dragoner, halt, Ansbach-Bayreuth!
Wisch ab deinen Säbel und laß ab vom Streit!
Denn ringsumher auf Friedbergs Höh'n
Ist weit und breit kein Feind mehr zu sehn.
/: Und ruft unser König, zur Stelle sind wir heut:
Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner, auf, Ansbach -Bayreuth! :/

(Lieder der Jugend. - Köln, 1940. - pg 54 sq)

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 05:35 AM

Toadfrog,

Ein Heller und ein Batzen: also known and sung by others than soldiers, especially students in the 19th century; the tune used nowadays adapted to marching by usage of the troops.
Erika: A product of WW II, composed by Harm Niels, a then famous composer of popular songs. Unfortunately I lost the song book with this song when I stopped practizing the accordion.
Westerwald: not traditional, also a marching song written and composed in WW II or shortly before.
Maruschka: There is a short student ditty containing this name, but this can't be it. I don't know another song; since you say it shouldn't be sung to a Pole: could it be the song beginning in einem Polenstädtchen (in a little Polish town ther lived a girl)?
Maerkische Heide: It not only does sound innocent enough, it is. It is the unofficial anthem of Brandenburg, heart of former Prussia. I found the song with the writer's name, G. Büchsenschütz, but no year. Since it is copyrighted by a Berlin musical publisher I assume that it was written in the 20th century. You won't find any bad ideas in it other than love to the beauties of your home country. [Note: The R at the end of Maerkischer must be omitted]

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Rollo
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 09:21 AM

Alan, there was indeed a vessel called "Horst Wessel" after the SA man.

"Horst Wessel" was build 1936 at Blohm & Voss in Hamburg as a school ship. There were a number of sister ships, including the present Bundeswehr sailing schoolship "Gorch Fock II". "Horst Wessel" was claimed by the USA after WW2 and now serves the Coast Guard for cadet training, renamed "Eagle".


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 09:56 AM

Toadfrog, having strained and scrutinized my memory for hours I remember that the song in einem Polenstädtchen indeed contains a verse vergiß Maruschka nicht, das Polenkind (never forget Maruschka, the Polish girl).
It is a pert abominable song about a girl seduced and betrayed by a "German grenadier". The girl finally committed suicide.
I never sang it because of the respect the women deserve; I heard it sometimes sung by enlisted men, but only when drunk. After a while I stopped this by asking: What would you have done if it had happened to your sister?
Especially the last verses are most detestable because of the choice of words, really chauvinistic and racistic.
These are the causes why I shouldn't sing it not only to a Polish audience, but never. It doesn't fit an officer and gentleman.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 04:08 AM

May I add that you can see the lyrics and hear the tunes to nearly all of the marches discussed so far here.

I disagree and agree with Wilfried regarding Maruschka. If you follow the link and read the (more or less) original lyrics you'll find that they are completely harmless. Just a little love song. Therefore I disagree. I have to agree however for the song too often is sung with much less harmless lyrics. I guess Wilfried had these lyrics in mind.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Lanfranc
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 01:20 PM

Thanks, Rollo, for the info on the vessel Horst Wessel/Eagle.

Which reminds me of the old joke ...

Q: What is the question to which the answer is "9W"

A: Do you spell your name with a V, Herr Witgenstein?

Sorry - I'll leave now!

De dum, de dum de dah dah dah.

(An English marching song with Nazi connections, usually whistled!)

Alan


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: toadfrog
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 10:35 PM

Wilfried: All the songs I mentioned, except, as you say Maruschka, have perfectly innocent-sounding lyrics. But songs do not only have lyrics and tunes, they have connotations.

I recall once singing Maerkischer Heide - in the basement of the library at U.C. Berkeley, on an evening in or about 1962, believing myself to be alone.

A bald-headed fellow popped out and asked, excitedly, "Sind Sie in der Wehrmacht gewesen?!" (Which was not the case.) And later, as a student in Marburg, I sang it to some (fairly conservative) friends, and was told it was not an acceptable song. So I was curious about that.


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:40 AM

toadfrog,

I have looked for such a connotation without success. The song was written in 1923, so that cannot be the reason.

A wild guess: This song is linked to Prussia in some German minds and everything Prussian had a bad name after 1945. This song might have been one of the several dozen songs which have been forbidden to sing, play or print by the Allied Forces in 1945.

I would not be surprised to learn that it was a forbidden song in the GDR as well. Today it is the song of the German Land Brandenburg, as close to being the official hymn as it can come without an explicit law.

As an aside, the composer, G. Büchsenschütz, who wrote the song as a young man, got fairly rich shortly before his death when he was well above ninety, for his song which had never brought him money before now sold over a million times on CD.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: toadfrog
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 01:48 PM

Wolfgang: That is an interesting story; thank you so much.


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:08 PM

Great band arrangement it ain't, but here is "Under the Double Eagle" for dulcimer Eagle
Now let's all get out our kazoos!


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Lanfranc
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:55 PM

Looking for information on the sail training ship "Eagle" nee "Horst Wessel", I came across a site that postulated that the tune of the marching song was related to that used for the hymn "How Great Thou Art"!

Hmmmm!

Alan


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 02:44 AM

Dicho, thanks for the link to "Under the Double Eagle". I appreciate the music sheet, but the sounds! This is not a funeral march, but written for the usual cadence of 114 steps per minute, and should be played faster.
The term "Double Eagle" is widely used for the Imperial Eagle which really is a "Double Headed Eagle".

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: toadfrog
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 08:44 PM

In all the old Hopalong Cassidy books, the "double eagle" was a $20 gold coin. Again, the Double Eagle was the symbol of the Austro-Hungarian, not the German Empire. Lots of old German songs refer to Austrian soldiers as "the Croats."

In the United States, the "Under the Double Eagle" was usually played a whole lot faster than 114 steps per minute, because it was regarded primarily as a virtuoso piece for guitar flat-pickers. Those old guys would practice and practice to see who could be the fastest, and the fanciest, picking it.

Wilfried: Thank you for pointing out what an ugly song Maruschka, or at least the common version, is. I think I must be a bit stupid about noticing things like that. A German student sang it to me when I was at Marburg, and in retrospect I think he was trying to get my goat. It didn't work; I asked for more songs, which he refused to sing.

Lanfranc: I think someone misled you. This is "How Great Thou Art." It does not sound at all like the Horst Wessel Song.


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: The Walrus
Date: 28 Mar 02 - 09:01 PM

Wilfred,

".... I appreciate the music sheet, but the sounds! This is not a funeral march, but written for the usual cadence of 114 steps per minute, and should be played faster...."

114 paces per min might be usual now, but when was "Under the Double Eagle" written? Remember that before the 1850s, most armies moved at nearer to 80 paces per min (and with a stiffer motion, on the ball of the foot, in what has been described as a "half goose-step[1])which is why French Napoleonic marches sound so odd when played for "modern" march pasts (except when used by the Legion, who STILL march at 80 ppm).

Regards

Tom

[1] Even as late as 1914, recruits to the British army were initially trained at the "Slow march" pace and in this kind of step.


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 29 Mar 02 - 02:10 PM

Toadfrog, the Double Headed Eagle was the symbol of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (I. Reich). After it was dissolved, it was preserved in the Austrian Empire (the first emperor of which was also the last emperor of the I. Reich.)
The II. Reich under the Prussan kings flew the Prussian eagle (one headed, black on white) with an additional shield.
Afterwards (before and after the III. Reich) the Republic returned to the old German eagle (black, red fangs, on gold)which was used for the first centuries of the I. Reich. Interesting that the President of the German Federal Republic flies a pennant which is the same as that of the old German kings (and Roman emperors), with a red border, as it is preserved in King Henry's VI. coat of arms in an old collection of medieval singers.

Walrus, the slow step was abandoned in Germany in the last century; it is only remembered in some old soldier songs.
If the marches are played to the slow step (65 steps p/m at the beginning of the 19th century), the marches are played alla breve. A survival of this usage is preserved in the march "Present arms", when our Guard Bataillon presents arms and the Chancellor with his ceremonial guest is walking along the front in a slow step (sometimes on TV) and the band is tooting fast.
In addition to the slow step not only the Germans, but other armies, too, had the quick step for attacks or forced marches.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: toadfrog
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 12:47 AM

Wilfried: That is interesting. When was the double eagle adopted? I believe it was Maximilian who first adopted the predicate "deutscher Nation" to designate the Empire, which was then at one of its many low points. I had always assumed that the point of the double eagle was to point up the dual nature of the Austro-Hungarian ("k. u. k") monarchy, which would suggest that it was adopted after 1848.

Very likely I am mistaken; when was it adopted.


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: MudGuard
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 11:21 AM

If the double headed eagle were a symbol for the double monarchy, Austria should now have a headless eagle ... ;-)

Infos about the Austrian coat of arms (and many other coats of arms) can be found at http://www.ngw.nl/index.htm (for Austria, select Austria on the left panel).


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: toadfrog
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 04:37 PM

Well, Mudguard, your site says:

"Already in 1325 the eagle was added as the supporter behind the shield. The eagle was the Imperial Eagle as the Dukes of Austria, from the Habsburg dynasty,were Kings (and Emperors) of the Holy Roman Empire at the time. Ever since the Habsburg family has used the eagle, first one-headed, later two-headed as the main supporter."

So, that tells us that initially, the eagle had only one head. It does not say where the other head came from, or when.

I don't know that much about mediaeval history, but if the Habsburgs were Emperors as early as 1325, they must have been out of office for a substantial amount of time in the 15th century.


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 07:27 PM

I was under the impression that the double headed eagle was a symbol of the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire. The symbol may still be seen today in countries which follow orthodox christianity: Russia, Serbia etc.

Could the second head of the Habsberg eagle have been adopted in imitation of the great influential empire of Byzantium which was much advanced technologically over the rest of Europe at the time (i.e. as a form of flattery) - or adopted following Austria's increased importance as guardian of Europe against the Turks/Ottoman Empire especially following the fall of Constantinnople in 1453 (i.e. continuing the fight under the same symbol)?


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 08:59 AM

Steve, you're right with the adoption of the double headed eagle from Byzantium. My guess: the double eagle was adopted when a Byzantine princess was married to a German king. Using a coat of arms in a composite one is to show ownership or a claim thereto.
My native town was the first community which sealed with the double eagle in the 14th century.
Mudguard, the double eagle is not a supporter of a shield, but it is the main part of the coat of arms. To the Imperial Eagle of Germany the Habsburg family added their own shield (red-silver-red) on its heart to show who reigns the Empire. My native town added its colours silver-black to the Imperial eagle to show that it was an immediate Imperial town, subject only to the Emperor with Imperial privileges.
First German king and emperor of the house of Habsburg was Rudolf (1273-1347),Albrecht I (1298-1308), Frederick the Beautiful of Austria (1314-1330), then the house of Habsburg reigned the Holy Roman Empire from 1438 to 1740 and from 1745 to its end in 1806.
Let me put stress on the note that the double eagle has nothing to do with Austria and Hungaria, but that is a symbol much older.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: german marches
From: MudGuard
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:03 AM

Wilfried, I did not say the eagle is a supporter, I just linked to a page about coat of arms. I did not check the accuracy of the information on that page.

MudGuard/Andreas


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