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German folk music

DigiTrad:
A MIGHTY FORTRESS IS OUR GOD
BRAHMS' LULLABY
BUMM! BUMM!! BUMM!!!
CORPORAL SCHNAPPS
DIE GEDANKEN SIND FREI
DIE GUTE KAMERAD
DIE LAPPEN HOCH
DIE MOORSOLDATEN
EDELWEISS
GORCH FOCK LIED
HANS BEIMLER
HEISE, ALL
LILI MARLEEN
MARIA DURCH EIN DORNWALD GING
ODE TO JOY (GERMAN)
YAW, YAW, YAW


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CET 14 Aug 01 - 10:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Aug 01 - 11:03 PM
toadfrog 14 Aug 01 - 11:16 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 14 Aug 01 - 11:16 PM
RangerSteve 15 Aug 01 - 12:41 AM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 15 Aug 01 - 01:23 AM
DougR 15 Aug 01 - 01:40 AM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 15 Aug 01 - 05:00 AM
Wolfgang 15 Aug 01 - 06:16 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Aug 01 - 08:32 AM
Ringer 15 Aug 01 - 12:40 PM
ard mhacha 15 Aug 01 - 01:56 PM
DougR 15 Aug 01 - 03:53 PM
Burke 15 Aug 01 - 04:53 PM
GUEST,leeneia 15 Aug 01 - 06:05 PM
Susanne (skw) 15 Aug 01 - 07:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Aug 01 - 07:31 PM
DougR 15 Aug 01 - 09:44 PM
CET 15 Aug 01 - 09:47 PM
Ralphie 16 Aug 01 - 01:39 AM
GUEST,Ernest 16 Aug 01 - 02:11 AM
GeorgeH 16 Aug 01 - 06:03 AM
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GUEST,Ernest 16 Aug 01 - 07:48 AM
GeorgeH 16 Aug 01 - 08:47 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Aug 01 - 12:15 PM
Susanne (skw) 16 Aug 01 - 03:35 PM
Jeanie 16 Aug 01 - 03:50 PM
GeorgeH 17 Aug 01 - 11:12 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Aug 01 - 11:55 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Aug 01 - 11:59 AM
Wolfgang 20 Aug 01 - 03:27 AM
GeorgeH 20 Aug 01 - 08:23 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Aug 01 - 09:12 AM
Midchuck 20 Aug 01 - 09:32 AM
ard mhacha 20 Aug 01 - 10:13 AM
GeorgeH 20 Aug 01 - 02:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Aug 01 - 03:42 PM
GeorgeH 21 Aug 01 - 06:28 AM
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Bat Goddess 22 Aug 01 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 23 Aug 01 - 06:43 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Aug 01 - 08:00 AM
GeorgeH 23 Aug 01 - 08:36 AM
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Wolfgang 24 Aug 01 - 05:04 AM
CET 24 Aug 01 - 06:17 AM
toadfrog 24 Aug 01 - 10:46 PM
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toadfrog 26 Aug 01 - 08:33 PM
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GeorgeH 28 Aug 01 - 12:03 PM
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CET 28 Aug 01 - 06:15 PM
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Wolfgang 29 Aug 01 - 04:05 AM
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Letty 29 Aug 01 - 05:52 AM
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catspaw49 29 Aug 01 - 08:01 AM
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Jim Krause 30 Aug 01 - 03:25 PM
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CET 06 Sep 01 - 04:41 AM
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McGrath of Harlow 06 Sep 01 - 07:19 AM
GeorgeH 06 Sep 01 - 11:10 AM
Desert Dancer 06 Sep 01 - 04:39 PM
Rank 06 Sep 01 - 05:46 PM
CET 06 Sep 01 - 10:53 PM
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Wolfgang 07 Sep 01 - 06:02 AM
GeorgeH 07 Sep 01 - 06:26 AM
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Wilfried Schaum 07 Sep 01 - 07:29 AM
Wolfgang 07 Sep 01 - 07:58 AM
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IanC 07 Sep 01 - 08:13 AM
Wolfgang 07 Sep 01 - 08:25 AM
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Rank 07 Sep 01 - 07:22 PM
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Wolfgang 12 Sep 01 - 06:59 AM
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Snuffy 12 Sep 01 - 07:25 PM
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CET 26 Oct 01 - 09:54 AM
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oggie 19 Apr 07 - 10:30 AM
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Wilfried Schaum 20 Apr 07 - 02:02 AM
MudGuard 20 Apr 07 - 02:13 AM
toadfrog 13 May 07 - 10:16 PM
Wilfried Schaum 14 May 07 - 02:28 AM
GUEST,Joh of Elsie`s Band 14 May 07 - 09:59 AM
Wilfried Schaum 16 May 07 - 04:14 AM
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toadfrog 16 May 07 - 10:57 PM
CET 21 May 07 - 01:19 AM
Wilfried Schaum 21 May 07 - 02:47 AM
CET 21 May 07 - 10:08 AM
Leadbelly 21 May 07 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 21 May 07 - 12:02 PM
Susanne (skw) 21 May 07 - 06:49 PM
Wilfried Schaum 22 May 07 - 02:11 AM
Leadbelly 22 May 07 - 04:39 AM
Wilfried Schaum 22 May 07 - 06:41 AM
CET 22 May 07 - 07:23 AM
robinia 31 Aug 07 - 12:44 AM
CET 31 Aug 07 - 06:08 AM
Leadbelly 31 Aug 07 - 01:03 PM
Susanne (skw) 31 Aug 07 - 03:32 PM
Leadbelly 31 Aug 07 - 04:23 PM
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Leadbelly 02 Sep 07 - 09:43 AM
Susanne (skw) 02 Sep 07 - 06:54 PM
Wolfgang 03 Sep 07 - 07:52 AM
Leadbelly 03 Sep 07 - 08:47 AM
bankley 03 Sep 07 - 05:40 PM
Wilfried Schaum 04 Sep 07 - 02:26 AM
Wilfried Schaum 04 Sep 07 - 08:22 AM
Wolfgang 04 Sep 07 - 10:31 AM
Susanne (skw) 04 Sep 07 - 08:25 PM
Wilfried Schaum 05 Sep 07 - 02:09 AM
Stephen R. 05 Sep 07 - 11:41 AM
Leadbelly 05 Sep 07 - 02:47 PM
GUEST 06 Sep 07 - 02:15 AM
Leadbelly 06 Sep 07 - 05:31 AM
CET 07 Sep 07 - 06:33 PM
Susanne (skw) 08 Sep 07 - 02:32 PM
CET 08 Sep 07 - 04:10 PM
CET 15 May 08 - 06:21 PM
robinia 18 May 08 - 12:32 AM
GUEST,Susanne (skw) n the road 24 May 08 - 11:19 AM
Wilfried Schaum 26 May 08 - 03:33 AM
Joe Offer 20 Sep 11 - 11:12 PM
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michaelr 21 Sep 11 - 09:46 PM
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Susanne (skw) 23 Sep 11 - 08:18 PM
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open mike 24 Sep 11 - 12:55 PM
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dick greenhaus 24 Sep 11 - 02:03 PM
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Subject: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 10:43 PM

This is a question that surfaces in my mind from time to time. Why don't folk music enthusiasts in North America or the U.K. hear much about German folk music? In fact, do folk music fans in Germany pay any attention to German folk music? God knows Germany is a singing nation: more people involved in choral singing than in sports, or so I've heard. Also, folk music from other European countries has gained a foothold in English speaking countries. I once asked a great friend of mine, a German immigrant to Canada and a major fan of Celtic music, whether the folk scene in Germany included German folk music. She said that that German folk fans tended to avoid their own national folk music because the Nazis had used it as a political tool.

This seems a shame. I would really like to learn some German folk songs (I used to sing in the local polizeichor when I lived in Germany). Would I be shunned if I was to sing a German song at a Mudcat gathering in Germany?

Any comments. I would be particularly interested in hearing from any German catters.

Edmund


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 11:03 PM

I've wondered about that. For example I've never come across any German groups at Sidmouth over the years, apart from one rather strange mob who went round chopping up logs of would while yodelling or something. No, I lie -there was a really charming and musical family group from somewhere in East Germany, just after the wall had come down, I remember them playing in the Parish Church to great effect.

I imagine it might be to do with a reaction against Nazi use of the music, or a kind of understandable feeling on the part of young Germans that they needed to turn away from a past that had gone so horribly wrong, and make a new start. And again, for different reasons, in other countries in Europe, such as England and Holland, there has been a similar turning away from their own traditions.

But there has to be all kind of really wonderful music in the background in Germany and Austria, not just the oompah stuff that gets trotted out at beer festivals and such. (I ran into one of those too on the way home from a trip to the Czech Republic. I wasn't too keen on it. But then I think Czech beer tastes much better too.)I dream of hearing groups playing tastefully folked-up Mozart the way Irish bands play Carolan.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: toadfrog
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 11:16 PM

You have a point there; Germans I've met here and in Germany seem to regard folk music as something exclusively foreign, or even exclusively Anglo-American. Another thing that surprises me a bit about Mudcat is that almost no one seems to know any foreign languages (except Irish, which is decidedly the in thing.

On the other hand, I have the impression that folk music traditions in France and Germany died out, to a large extent, drowned by classical and popular music to a much larger extent than elsewhere, so that to hear French folk music it is almost necessary to go to Canada. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that is definitedly my impression.

Most of the German "folk music" I personally have heard is either in the nature of old standards like "Muss i denn," "Die Gedanken sind frei," or "Horch was kommt von draussen rein" - roughly equivalent to "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" - or dreary Peasant War stuff. Still, I like those old standards, and wish they were sung more here. Now, the Austrians have a lively folk-song tradition, but I've never been able to interest any Germans in it. It is interesting to note that under the Nazis, Heinrich Heine became a non-person, and all his more popular songs - like "Die Lorelei" - turned into "folk songs."


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 11:16 PM

There are many German sangvereins in the United States. Go to Rick's Music pages on www.acronet.net/~robokopp and follow the Music Archive link. Send him an Email to find the nearest singing group to you. I remember the one in Austin, Texas, very well- in back of an open beer garten with black beer and large, cheap steak tartar. The hall is still there and functioning.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: RangerSteve
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 12:41 AM

An acquaintance of mine, who happens to be German, was trying to find some sources for German folk music. What he found was that ever since the government banned Neo-Nazi gatherings, the Neo-Nazis started advertising the gatherings as "Folk festivals". So, unfortunately, the German people are distancing themselves from folk music because of the bad connotations the word "folk" now carries.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 01:23 AM

Sorcha gave a site for Hawaiian melodies. It also has German folk songs. She gave the clickie. See thread Hawaiian Lyrics.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: DougR
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 01:40 AM

Interesting thread. I have a friend who performs regularly in Germany (he lives in Canada) and he told me that there are a lot of requests for American Country/Western songs in Germany, which surprised me a bit. He said Irish music is big there too.

DougR


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 05:00 AM

Try Deutsche Volkslieder


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 06:16 AM

Susanne can (and will?) tell you much more about the German folkscene than I can. But I shall give you a personal account and some more general reasons why feelings towards Deutsche Volksmusik are somewhat mixed in those Germans who love folk music.

I grew up with German songs sung by my parents, sung in the boy scouts and I loved singing them. At about 18-20 I found that many of those songs had a very conservative (reactionary) background and some of the more innocent ones had been "browned in" by a too close association with Hitler. Can you imagine my horror when I found out that too many of the songs I loved where printed in my father's 'songbook of the Hitler youth'? I stopped loving Deutsche Volkslieder at all.

Loving Irish and later Scottish, English, and recently American folk music was a kind of outlet. This was a music in which you could have pride and love without the singing tradition being interrupted by a period of horror. I was fairly, and still am though slightly less so, left of the middle of the political spectrum and didn't want to be identified or identify with 'right-wing' music.

I was very naive. About ten years later I slowly found out that there were several Irish (English etc.) songs I didn't like at all for several reasons and I slowly rediscovered the beauty of many German songs. I even found that there was a huge reservoir of German democratic and revolutionary or rebellious songs. Many of these songs had never been sung by the Hitler youth. Others had been sung by them but why should I not sing a song from the Bauernaufstand (peasants' uprise) in the middle ages only for it having been sung in the Third Reich as well?

I then even found that there were many groups and singers (though overall a minority) in Germany singing these good songs and many of them in a musical style similar to what I knew from english-language folk. The list is very long and I can only mention a few like Zupfgeigenhansel, Hannes Wader, Elster Silberflug, Ougenweide, Fiedel Michel,... I listen to their recordings with as much fun as I listen to the best of english-language folk musicians. Only in passing I mention the beautiful Music by minorities in Germany as Sinti and Roma (Reinhardt family) and the recent developments of blending different traditions from immigrants from (roughly) South Europe with the German tradition (Schää Sick Brass Band; mind you, only the last two words are English).

However, there is still a big divide. Deutsche Volksmusik is often entwined with political reactionary groups. The many songs from former German parts in East Europe (now Russian, Baltic, Polish and Czech) are sung nearly exclusively by Vertriebene (expelled persons) who long to get their homes back. The songs are often very beautiful, but the political allegiance of the organisations of the expelled is often at least to the very extreme of the parlamentiary right, sometimes beyond that. Singing these songs means to be identified with that tiny political minority of revanchists or to explain yourself continuously.

And there is a big divide in musical taste. The prime example is Heino, a singer of German folk dividing hearts and families. Heino's political leanings are impeccable (though not those of his fans, often to his dismay), but his music is, well, marching music, umpta, easy beat. I love many of the songs but I shall never listen to Heino any longer than it takes to change the station. It's just personal taste, same as I now know to avoid Irish CDs which have more than three of the following items on their cover: donkey, turf, red-haired girl, shamrock, harp, leprechaun.

What I consider to be good German folkmusic I find about twice a year in German TV. The Volksmusik-Hitparade (no need of translation) comes about once a week, Saturday evening. Not my music at all. When I sometimes look for German Volksmusik CDs in other countries I nearly exclusively find the music I don't like. A bit similar to German wines. There are so many fine German wines, but abroad I only find Liebfrauenmilch (Blue Nun). We seem to be proud to export the worst of our music and wines. It's a pity. But then, my taste is obviously a minority taste.

I wouldn't mind at all singing German songs at Mudcat gatherings. There are so many good ones that it would be easy to fill an evening. But as many above have seen correctly, the traditon is broken by Hitler's years and all lovers of folk music still feel the divide until now between what I call German folk and Deutsche Volksmusik. If you want to read a tiny bit more to understand why the political inheritance of German folk is still heavy on us, read the German contributions to the Ich hatt' einen Kameraden thread. You might understand why we are sometimes divided within our own souls.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 08:32 AM

Well toadfrog, I definitely think you've got it wrong about folk music in France, and not just in Brittany, where my understand is it's about as alive and kicking as it is in Ireland.

And I know there are brilliant musicians making music in various parts of France, because they keep on turning up at festivals in England. They may be an isolated and ignored minority at home, for all I know, but then aren't we all?

I was hoping Wolfgang would get into this. You know what I'm reminded of, what seems to be the situation in America where it appears the same music can be defined as being either country or folk not so much on the basis of how it sounds, but on the basis of political ideology.

Maybe it'd be a good idea to drop the word "volk" in relation to traditional music in Germany, and leave it to the far right to desecrate. And start collecting from old people while they are still around, and build around the concept of traditional, and contemporary homemade music, maybe with the German word for "roots" which people keep on trying to popularise in England, because "folk" puts a lot of people off.

I'd imagine that mixing up contemporary versions of traditional German songs with music collected from the guest-worker communities would be a good clear way of indicating that this wasn't a hyper-nationalist thing. And a bit of that other German (among other things) tradition, Klezmer music.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Ringer
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 12:40 PM

Wolfgang, I am impressed as much by how you say it as by what you say. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 01:56 PM

Wolfgang, I have seen Heino on German TV, before Sky TV switched over to digital I was a big fan of German Folk music. The MUSIC CANAL was very good and I have lots of Videos of the various German folk programmes. I was told by a German that the German Folk scene was inspired by the various Irish Groups which toured Germany. I cannot see why there should be any worries about certain German Folk songs, after all Wagner`s music overcame the association with the Nazis. Wolfgang sing out and enjoy. Slan Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: DougR
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 03:53 PM

Well put, Bald Eagle, that was an excellent post Wolfgang.

I agree with ard mhacha too. Someday the Germans need to put those bad days behind them and start singing their music. The Nazi were the bad guys, not the music.

DougR


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Burke
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 04:53 PM

As a librarian I've been interested in classification issues. A few years ago I looked through some of the old Dewey schedules. We don't have all of them, but the first one that had the class number I wanted was labeled: Volkslieder. I don't rememeber the date, but this was late 19th or early 20th century when an American classification schedule did not even translate the word!

I may be mistaken, but I think of the Germans as almost having invented the concept of 'folk' with the Grimm's work on folk tales & what ever the musicologists were doing. I was under the impression that is sprang from the fact that greater Germany was divided among several states & there was a desire to forge a common German identity. I don't think the people working in the field had any idea that same motive could be as corrupted as it later was by Bismark & Hitler.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 06:05 PM

I know what people mean when they feel that folk songs have been contaminated by politicians. I felt the same way when I was visiting a mountain region in North Carolina. My host said that musicians get together at a gas station there (when it's closed) and play traditional tunes. However, they have Confederate flags on their instrument cases, as if to say that the music goes with southern separatism. The hell with that, I say.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 07:11 PM

Burke, you're quite right - the term Volkslied was introduced by the Romantic poets of the mid-nineteenth century, and many were written by them. Heine's 'Lorelei', mentioned above, is a case in point.

However, apart from the Nazis using many of these songs for their own ends, I think there are other factors contributing to the neglect of German Volkslieder. One of these I take to be the fact that many of these songs are very simple and predictable musically, maybe also predictable in content, and tend to get boring after a while. (The same goes for most German folk danbce tunes.) Like Wolfgang, I used to sing a lot as a child, but with the songs available to us it was often a case of 'familiarity breeds contempt'.

Much later I found out there are other songs, livelier ones, less decorous ones, and less politically correct ones. The problem was, the 'official' Volksmusik scene wasn't interested. The vast number of choirs went on singing their choral settings of 'Aennchen von Tharau' and Goethe's 'Rose on the Heath' (without realising, of course, that this was actually about rape!). Interest developed in the then GDR, where Wolfgang Steinitz put together his massive 'Volkslieder of a democratic nature from the last six centuries'. This book made its way to the West during the West German folk music revival of the late Sixties and early Seventies. This revival had started with bands playing American and later on Irish material, before they found out about - or maybe had matured enough to accept - the vast repertoire of German material. Many did check the archives and found new songs, or they wrote new ones themselves based on older songs. Some of these groups are still going. However, to make clear the distinction to other strands of German Volksmusik, they called their music Folkmusik.

Volksmusik encompasses the choral movement already mentioned, the Bavarian yodel- and brass band music which is probably the best-known aspect of German Volksmusic abroad, and other anodyne strands. Its worst strand, in my opinion, is Volkstümliche Musik, the total commercialisation of Volksmusik. Wolfgang has already mentioned TV programmes like Volkstümliche Hitparade, and there is more of this stuff, often regionalised, on several stations. Hugely popular programmes, but the music is in no sense of the word traditional, but mass-produced 'folk-pop' with an eye (both eyes, actually) on the market and performed by minor or minuscule musical talents enhanced by playback, whose major requirement seems to be the ability to present a squeaky-clean image. This is what German Folkmusiker are trying to distance themselves from.

It's not as though there was no German folk scene although it is still true that many German bands are more interested in Irish, Scottish, country music or blues. As to McGrath's suggestion of mixing the German tradition with those of migrant workers' communities, this is already being done (although I must confess I can't talk about this with any authority as it isn't really my interest). Also, there is a growing interest in klezmer music and Yiddish songs. The German organisation for song, folk and world music, PROFOLK, has so far put together five (I think) samplers with very good examples of the German folk music scene in all its aspects. Unfortunately, their website is in German only and not very helpful to our current topic, but you might try and contact them via eMail and ask for copies of their samplers if there are any left. They are limited edition and strictly for promotional purposes, i.e. they get sent out to foreign radio stations, not normally to individuals. If you're really dying to get a peek you could always ask me, of course - nicely!

One last aspect - it is a fact that German groups don't usually get invited to UK festivals. This may be due to a certain wariness on the part of other Europeans where the Germans are concerned; it may also be due to the fact that they don't perceive our music as particularly attractive. Then, of course, the PR machine for German folk may be at fault. This is pure speculation.

Sorry for rambling on, especially as Wolfgang has said a lot already. I WAS going to think about my contribution first but in the end couldn't resist ... Anybody who has any further questions - there's always a PM.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 07:31 PM

they get sent out to foreign radio stations

Well they don't come much more foreign than the Mudcat Radio.

I'm sure if the people booking for festivals were aware of available folk bands which didn't fall into tye stereotype Susanne was lamenting, they'd b likely to thoink lof booking them them. I know that that little family band I mentioned at the Sidmouth Festival a few years back were very well received.

But of course people don't have to wait till they get a booking to come across and play music and busk and promote what they are doing by doing it. And have a good time while they are doing it. There are still lots of good festivals this summer...


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: DougR
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 09:44 PM

Susanne:
I'm not complaining, understand. I thought your post was very interesting, and I read it all, but if you would break your post up into paragraphs it makes them so much easier to read. Good post, though.

DougR
    Line breaks added to Susanne's post.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 09:47 PM

I know the kind of anodyne "yodel and brass band" Susanne is referring to. There used to be a television program in the 1970's on one of the local stations in southern Ontario called "Gemuetlichkeit" (sorry, my keyboard isn't configured to do umlauts right now) that featured cheery musicians in lederhosen. It was designed to appeal to homseick German immigrants. My German teacher said that show would make any real German sick, to which one of my classmates replied that her parents (German immigrants)loved it. He beat a graceful retreat by saying that what he should have said was that it made him sick. There was an equally repulsive show called the "Pig and Whistle" which took place in an ersatz (if you'll forgive the expression) English pub and featured the Carlton Show Band and a buxom bar maid if I recall correctly.

I was hoping that modern German folk musicians were playing music with some of the elements that attract me to the best folk songs of other countries. Susanne and Wolfgang have reassured me in this regard. Still, it looks as if folkmusik is always going to have an uphill battle.

Any suggestions on a few good folkmusik albums to get introduced to this kind of music? For example, if someone was asking me about a really great English or Scottish ballad album, I would probably recommend "Fyre and Sword: Songs of the Border Reivers" or if they were becoming interested in Irish songs I might steer them towards Sean Keane. For Scottish folk music, I would recommend starting with the Tannahill Weavers or Old Blind Dogs.

Perhaps one day I will get to a Mudcat gathering in Germany.

Edmund


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Ralphie
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 01:39 AM

Interesting thread
Edmund. If it's any consolation, British TV is hardly awash with Folk/Roots programming either (Although I'm old enough to remember the Spinners...complete with hay bales!)
I do, however remember enjoying the East German band "Jams" a few years ago, on a British tour. Whatever happened to them ?
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,Ernest
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 02:11 AM

Hello everyone,

I agree with much of the things Wolfgang and Susanne wrote, so I just add a few thoughts. Apart from the oompah-style folkish ("vokstuemlich") music much of the music actually sung by the people are done by choirs, there is no great tradition like the irish sean nos. Seems most of us Germans likes doing things well organized.

Maybe that is why music became so easily corrupted by political parties. Not only by the nazis, but also by the communists. Most bands of the newer folk-scene mentioned above were part of a left-wing movement, what scared of the more conservative as well as the politically indifferent (the bigger part of the population). Also the political correctness of banning perfectly harmless songs just because the nazis sung it did nothing good to the general acceptance of these - otherwise brilliant - musicians (By the way this is not new; the quotation "political song, a nasty song =politisch Lied, ein garstig Lied" goes back to the 19th century).

All the best

Ernest (from Germany - and as you may have noticed, of a slightly conservative opinion)


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 06:03 AM

As far as I recall Jams split and later reformed . . But what happened then I've no idea . .

Their first visit to the UK was before reunification . . that visit was probably Ian Anderson's finest achievement while he was running Bracknell Folk Festival.

And, Ernest, a German conservative is often well to the left of the current British Socialist Prime Minister . .

Of course Germany is also home to some wonderful folk music amongst its immigrant people . . trouble is, in much of the country, the rest of the German population never get to hear it (wow, that was one hell of an over-simplification!!)

George


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 07:14 AM

I rather think Jams may have been the band I was referring to above which I heard at Sidmouth and liked.

I get suspicious when I heard things said like "there is no great tradition " - because that is just the kind of thing which people used to say about folk song in England once upon a time. And they'd then go on to say "in contrast to Germany" and things like that.

Maybe it's true that "most of us Germans likes doing things well organized," though there are a lot of Germans who are far from being like that. But musical traditions tend on the whole to be retained and passed on by people who aren't most people.

It may be of course that all the upheavals have wiped all and twisted many kinds of traditional music in Germany itself. But there must have been musical traditions carried on in expatriate communities, for example in America or in the further reaches of Russia. And not just oompah stuff.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,Ernest
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 07:48 AM

McGrath of Harlow:

you are right, there are other traditions beside the oompah-style music and there are people making music in an more informal way. I just tried to explain why (german) folk or traditional music is not as popular here as it is in Ireland for instance (and I am aware that it has been different there as well in the past). There are many fine bands (some already mentioned) and many beautiful songs that would deserve more popularity.

Yours

Ernest


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 08:47 AM

OK, I only skimmed this first time so apologies to Wolfgang for not acknowledging that I was repeating his point about the music of the imimgrant communities . .

There has been at least one sampler of German Folk Revival stuff made generally available - under a title something like "It's only Kraut - but I like it" . . I think it may have been a wider release of one of the PROFOLK CDs Suzanne referred to. Possibly worth looking out for.

One think which occurs to me - I don't know what Susanne and Wolfgang think about this - elsewhere (particularly in the UK and US) the Folk Song Revival - starting in the mid 1950s - was very much driven by the political left. Elsewhere (e.g. France and Spain) Traditional music has been an important aspect of the regions seeking to assert their particular identities (not necessarily in a divisive or separatist way). Germany's traditional music has not received either of these boosts.

On the other hand there does seem to be a strong tradition of political/satirical caberet/theatre in Germany which is hardly found elsewhere . .

As for German bands being invited to the UK - I suspect, in relation to the number of bands performing, they don't do any worse than the rest of Europe. We don't see that many European bands here, and there seem to be a lot more to choose from in France, Spain, Italy, etc . .

Thanks to Susanne, Wolfgang and others for some fascinating information.

G.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 12:15 PM

"Traditional music has been an important aspect of the regions seeking to assert their particular identities (not necessarily in a divisive or separatist way)."

I'd have thought that that would have applied in Germany too, and for different rereasons. I mean, I can imagine that if I'd been born in one of the regions in Germany I'd have been very likely to have decided that national identity I preferred to accept was, (for example) Bavarian and European. After all the whole idea that there is a nation called Germany is a pretty recent development, going back the 19th century.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 03:35 PM

Doug - sorry, I did but forgot to add an empty line. I noticed it myself as soon as I'd posted. I'm learning!

Edmund - it's not as though German music was particularly in evidence at the German Mudcat gathering, with most of the Germans non-musicians and a strong musicians' contingent from Yorkshire ... But I'll try and find worthwhile German websites in the future to point you to. For those really interested, there are several mail order firms specialising in folk music. Just give me time.

Ralphie, Jams are still going, although they have another outfit with virtually the same line-up now, with a different musical direction, 'mrs meyer's love affairs'. Gabriele and Jo Meyer are the brains behind both bands. I'll pass your comments on to them. I've no doubt they'll be very pleased.

Ernest - conservatives are easily scared ... :-), especially of new ideas. There was one singer/songwriter named Gerd Knesel who tried to write songs in a conservative vein, supporting the Christian Democrats at election time. He vanished without trace after a couple of years because few people who listen to this kind of music at all were interested in his viewpoints. Besides, I got the impression the songs weren't all that good. As everywhere: A laudable intention does not necessarily make a good song.

George, can't agree with you there - German Social Democrats are diligently following the so-called Labour Party down the road to conservatism, chasing the Conservatives. They're just a couple of years behind, as usual!

The sampler George mentioned, 'It's only Kraut ... but I like it' is indeed the first of the series brought out by PROFOLK. The others are 'Prime Cuts' (1998), 'Test the Best' (1999), 'Pearls for a New Century' (2000), and '2001 - A Folk Odyssey' (2001 - you guessd that, didn't you?). There is also a series of short CDs featuring each year's winner and runners-up of the German equivalent of the Young (Folk) Musicians Award.

George, Ernest has already mentioned that the German folk revival was indeed mainly left wing. It just started later. Its starting point was a series of songwriters' gatherings on Burg Waldeck in Southern Germany. This castle was associated with the German Youth Movement of the 1920s, in which both singing and patriotism featured prominently. These Waldeck gatherings in the early Sixties first brought names like Reinhard Mey, Hannes Wader, Hanns Dieter Hüsch and others to prominence, and people like Ramblin' Jack Elliot attended. The man who is seen by most as the brains behind the gatherings and indeed the start of the folk revival, Peter Rohland, is known to few outside the scene nowadays because he died tragically young in the mid-Sixties. He was the first to start singing German folk songs and also Yiddish songs, in a conscious attempt to overcome the memories of the Third Reich. I think the few recordings he made are still available at specialist shops.

Also, the regional aspect was by no means absent from the folk revival. There are several singer/songwriters as well as bands like 'Bläck Fööss' (from Cologne) who take pride in and consciously use their regional dialect in their music. Bavarian music regards itself as more or less separate from the rest of Germany, as Bavaria as a whole still does. Also, Low German has been rescued from total commercialisation by bands who sing the old songs and write new ones in a less cloying style than the one you usually hear on radio or TV. Unfortunately, they don't get much airplay. I'm on the committee of the Folk Music Association of Schleswig-Holstein, many of whose members sing in Low German, so I know what I'm talking about. Have a look at LAG Folk Schleswig-Holstein. (We even have a page in English.)The eMail address given sends you straight to my mailbox.

Promotional part over, and I hope you'll forgive me for running on again!


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Jeanie
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 03:50 PM

Thanks CET for starting this thread - and thanks Wolfgang and Susanne for the link to Profolk. For those interested, here are some more useful German websites: www.folker.de for the webpage of the German folk magazine "Folker" which in turn has links to anything and everything, mostly in German. If you don't understand (much) German but are interested, do look at this webpage as a lot of it is self-explanatory and lots of the links are in English as well as German.

To confirm what has been already said, a lot of the bands featured in Folker play Irish/Celtic, but there is also a great interest in early medieval music. For German speakers look at: www.mittelaltermusik.de (Minnesang, early instruments, performers, texts etc.)

A bilingual German/English website of the band "Spielleut": www.willis.de/spielleut/

JAMS are listed as a link on "Folker" on: members.aol.com/jamsberlin/index.html but it came up as "page not available" when I tried it.

The "Folker" website also has lots of links to Klezmer. Some slightly more obscure listings are for a band called Saltatio Mortis who play "medieval punk" and an on-line shop called "Ars Nordica" based in Hamburg, selling Viking music.

Hope some of this will be of help/interest. Mit freundlichen Gruessen !


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 11:12 AM

Thanks, Susanne - I stand corrected!

Were/are the band Irolt low German? (Sorry, my UK geography is bad enough - when it gets to Germany I'm hopeless) - we saw them at Bracknell many years before Jams were over here. (I think their dialect/language was Friesian).

I know the Bavarians see themselves as "apart" (indeed, some of them seem to have forgotten who "won" the last war . . ) Which is why it's perverse that their music, to most people, characterises "German" "folk" music . . .

However it remains my IMPRESSION that when in France or Spain you can't miss the regional "flavours" of the folk music, whereas in Germany (excluding Bavarian and Austrian) I've never encountered that subdivision. Although, as has been widely noted, the only "flavour" of folk (with the previous exclusions) it's easy to find is Irish!

Not that we go as far south as Bavaria - well, not recreationally, anyway! (Our head office is in Munich, but that's another story.)

G.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 11:55 AM

"If you don't understand (much) German but are interested" - there's always babelfish, which you can reach through the translate button at te bottom of every post. Pretty strange translations at times, but the sense normally comes through, which is pretty amazing.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 11:59 AM

For example, here is what it did with that last post of mine:

"wenn Sie nicht verstehen (viel) Deutsches aber" interessiert sind - es gibt immer babelfish, das Sie durch die Übersetzungstaste an der teunterseite jedes Pfostens erreichen können. Hübsche merkwürdige Übersetzungen manchmal, aber die Richtung kommt normalerweise durch, die recht erstaunlich ist.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 03:27 AM

Thanks for all your contributions. This thread made me think a lot about music, politics, history, and me.

One day, if I have too much time, I'll try to write an outline of German history and its relation to folksong, from the Middle ages, through the Burschenschaften, the Wandervögel, and Hitler to today. Why all the originally true feelings of national pride and comradeship always were usurped by the extreme right to end in disaster and why the left has always had difficulties with (not only) the word 'national' even in such a context as 'national football team'.

I guess that's so ambitious that I'll have to wait until retirement.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 08:23 AM

We look forward to the, Wolfgang.

And, for what it's worth, those in the left in the UK also have problems with the concept of "national", for all sorts of reasons - but largely because the langauge and symbols of nationhood have been usurped by those of the right (current government?) and far-right (Tory party and beyond, though there are times when it seems hard to get to the right of the Tory party).

Also, of course, Northern Ireland raises all sorts of unpleasant questions of Nationhood (and both the IRA and the Ulster political parties seem pretty far right to me).

G.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 09:12 AM

Region patriotism is perhaps a lot less fraught in some ways. Songs about the glories of Lancashire or Yorkshire and so forth don't have the same overtones as stuff about England or Britain.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Midchuck
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 09:32 AM

Here's the site for some friends of mine, German nationals now living in the D. C. area, who are excellent musicians with a particular interest in the study of the German roots of U. S. folk music - which are much more extensive than most Americans realize. After WWI there was a sort of denial of all German heritage, that we never quite recovered from.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: ard mhacha
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 10:13 AM

George H, IRA right wing?, yes slightly to the right of Mao. Slan Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 02:10 PM

Of course the IRA are right wing . . always have been, in so far as they fit into the conventional political spectrum. Look at the reactionary, conservative, religious constitution they provided for Eire, which it took (seemingly) for ever for that poor, afflicted nation to start to shake off.

The "affinity" so many left wing groups claim for the IRA is simply one of life's little mysteries . . although at times it's indicative of the limited intellegence of the more off-the-field left wing groups.

In terms of their "control of their own people" and tollerance of those of differing persuations there's half of bugger all to choose between the IRA and the militant Unionists!

(Actually, I'm not sure of any simple way of distinguishing Mao from a right wing totalitarian . . )

Cheers!

George


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 03:42 PM

Putting people in left right order as if there was a smooth one dimensional spectrum from left to right is a pretty meaningless exercise. Is Ian Paisley to the right of Oliver Cromwell? Are the Taliban to the left of Mohgammed? Was Milosevic a left wing bastard or aright wing bastard?

To pin down people's politics you've got to do it in at least four dimensions I'd say.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 06:28 AM

Yeh, I was just wanting to be a bit provocative . .

More mishief than anything - you sussed me! (Although I do stand by what I said . . I cannot see any basis for the view that the IRA are left wing.)

G.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 06:45 PM

Thread creep alert! :-)
George, I've never heard the name of the band you mention above. 'IROLT'? Rings no bell, sorry. Also, having been off on a weekend trip to Oslo I haven't looked for any more links, but Jeanie has provided a few good ones, I think. Thanks! Are you connected to the 'Folker!'?


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 04:25 PM

Hi, Edmund!
There was a wonderful double LP collection called "Ach Ya!" of German (and a little bit of Swiss) folk music collected in Wisconsin that came out in the early '80s, I believe. I can't remember now if I actually own the LPs (I think I do) or if I have it on tape thanks to my sister. That's about the time I started taping the LPs to listen to and archiving the vinyl for safekeeping.

Bat Goddess


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 06:43 AM

...slight thread creep, but in a piece in the press today about money "wasted" on "useless" academic research they quoted a research project on the use of rude words in German Folk music. Somebody out there has £150,000 (GBP) to spend onit!
RtS


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 08:00 AM

***@**@###*&%$~~**~!!!


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 08:36 AM

But that is, of course, the spin the press puts on it rather than an accurate account of the scope of the research (sorry, I forgot our press is 100% honest, accurate and decent . . ). There's plenty of scope for valuable research into bawdy folk song, I'd reckon

G.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 04:06 PM

Sadly, when one of the foremost German folk groups, Zupfgeigenhansel (named after a rather anodyne but famous 19th or early 20th century songbook), split up one of the guys went on to form a band called 'Erich und das Polk' who took pride in finding the rudest and most tasteless songs in the German folk repertoire and presenting them in a way a lot of people found offensive. Strangely enough, it didn't really take off ... (If you can lay your hands on any Zupfgeigenhansel recordings, hold on to them!)


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Aug 01 - 05:04 AM

Here's a tiny part of 'folk music in the history of Germany' which still only exists in my head:

The first edition of the 'Zupfgeigenhansel'* came out in 1908, but the songs in this book had already been in many handwritten songbooks of the Wandervogel** founded in 1896. The Zupfgeigenhansel was their official songbook. This youth movement was founded in protest against the adults and their town-based society and values. This was done by 'fleeing the burgeois world' through 'living in the nature' by walking and camping. No alcohol and cigarettes were allowed, no machine powered transport, and each goal was to be reached by the most basic means (cooking on woodfire only; tents only from tarpaulins and e.g. the pegs and poles had to be cut anew each time from wood).

The values were comradeship, patriotism, thriftiness, and 'back to the roots'. All groups coming from this movement were either forbidden or forced into line, that is transformed into Hitler youth groups (my father went to bed one night as a Wandervogel and woke up next morning as a Hitlerjunge) soon after 1933. Many of the most ardent supporters of the Nazis came from these groups but also some of the most determined enemies (Edelweißpiraten, e.g.) who often payed with their lives for opposing Hitler and his values.

As for folk songs, we owe a lot to these groups for digging out and preserving old songs and writing a lot of fine new songs. The best of these songs can compare to McColls 'Manchester Rambler' and the worst made good marching songs for Hitler's armies.

Wolfgang

*Zupfgeigenhansel: 'Johnny with a guitar' would be one possible English translation of this title; 'Zupfgeige' being an unsucessful attempt to prevent the Germans from adopting the foreign word 'Gitarre' to their language

**Wandervogel: verbatim: 'walking bird', but in this context we also understand 'Vogel' in the sense of 'schräger Vogel' which means 'odd person'; the best translation grasping the spirit would be 'odd/outcast walker'


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 24 Aug 01 - 06:17 AM

Bat Goddess, great to hear from you again. If we are ever down your way (and I certainly hope we will be) I would like to listen to your tape. I know a little about British and French folk music being implanted in North America, but nothing about the same process happening to German music.

Wolfgang, I don't think only the bad songs served as marching songs for the Nazis. In fact, I suspect some good Wandervogel songs were used precisely because people wanted to sing them as they were marching. The Devil can use folksongs for his own purposes, as he can with Scripture.

Edmund


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: toadfrog
Date: 24 Aug 01 - 10:46 PM

Query: Has anyone sat down and distinguished the old songs from the new? Because virtually all the German folks songs I have heard sound as if they were either composed by someone with sensibilities such as described - by city people wanting to be close to the folk, or processed to fit the taste of city people. American folk music often sounds like that, too, but the phonograph was invented while there still was a vital tradition, so that some real stuff survived. One has the impression that in Germany, it may have been too late.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 07:24 PM

Toadfrog, where did the German folk songs you've heard come from? I don't think the songs rediscovered during the folk revival by bands like Fiedel Michel, Liederjan, Moin and others - not to mention modern reworkings of these - ever made it to the States. The people who moved there in the 19th and early 20th century probably took with them the more polite songs that were widely sung at the time and forgot about the others, if indeed they ever knew them. I even have a CD of German emigrant songs. Have you ever come across any of those? Or artisans' songs? Wandering artisans could be a rather rowdy crew and had a whole song genre to themselves. Then there are those about monks and nuns, about highwaymen etc. Few of those were known to (or taken up by) the Wandervogel movement.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: toadfrog
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 08:33 PM

Suzanne, that sounds very intersting; how does one find these things? Was the emigrant CD released in the USA? It seems entirely plausible that the artisans might, even today, have some very good stuff, but I haven't heard any of it.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 06:34 PM

I doubt the CD was released in the USA, but if you're really interested I can make you a tape of it, as well as of some other stuff I've got. Maybe there is a way to share a few examples with this thread, if someone put them on their website. Don't know about infringement of copyright, though.
I haven't had time but I will (some day) look for relevant German sites which may even have sound files. A place to start might be Old Songs New Songs, a German folk music mail order firm, but the site is in English. If you click on 'Search Catalogue' you can scroll down to various sections on Germany. There are no infos on the artists, though, just the list of albums.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 12:03 PM

That link didn't work for me, Susanne!

G.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 06:06 PM

I don't blame you, George! Somehow the Mudcat got into it ... This ought to do the trick.
    Link updated August 2007 - Joe Offer


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 06:15 PM

The link didn't work for me, either, alas.

Susanne, your last post touches on the kind of thing that got me wondering about German folk music in the first place - songs about emigrants, criminals, workers, travellers, etc, in other words the very things that attract me to traditional songs from other countries. I would dearly love to get my hands on some of the CDs you refer to, but I would rather stay on the right side of the copyright law. Perhaps you could post a few titles with the publishers' name and catalogue number. I could probably order them through HMV.

You might be interested to know that at one time, the British had the greatest possible respect for German folk music. During the Napoleonic wars, German units in British service fought alongside the British. Lewis Winstock, in "Songs and Music of the Redcoats 1642-1902", writes "...the war music of the Germans, who fought with the redcoats on several fronts, was treated with an admiration that bordered on awe." It was the Germans' choral singing in particular that impressed the British soldiers. Winstock quotes one soldier who compared "those tuneless airs in which the lower orders of our countrymen delight" with the Germans who "sang beautifully a wild chorus, a hymn to the Virgin, different persons taking different parts and producing altogether the most exquisite harmony." Apparently, during the American Civil War, the best bands were German, and the best regimental singing was done by Germans.

I have a particular interest in soldiers' songs. I wonder what songs Sharpe's rifles might have heard when they were camped alongside the King's German Legion?

CET


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 06:25 PM

Of course "those tuneless airs in which the lower orders of our countrymen delight" were probably what we now quite rightly recognise as splemdid folk songs. (Remember, there was a time when the Alps were seen as hideous by the cognoscenti of the day.)


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 04:05 AM

Edmund,

I first try a link to an awfully expensive new book about German soldier's songs (in German, with a double CD added). It seems to be a scholarly work and receives praise in all newspapers from right to left. If my wife has understood a gently hint I'll find it under the Christmas tree:

Ich hatt' einen Kameraden. von Uli Otto, Eginhard König

You're right about some of the good songs being misused. For instance, the title of the Hitler youth songbook was 'Uns geht die Sonne nicht unter', a line from a song which rather represents the opposite to Nazi ideas in its lyrics. However, if I scan thew titles in this book and the titles in German WWII songs CDs on the web, I find that all the songs with positive descriptions of foreign countries, with positive descriptions of minorities and those with disobedience against wrong rulers (if more recent than the peasant uprising in the Middle ages) and particularly all songs expressing ideas of freedom (notable exception above: uns geht die Sonne nie unter) and criticising the military are left out.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 05:42 AM

Thanks, Susanne . . new version of the link works. Sadly the site's "themed indexes" are badly broken, but the keyword search is fine. (However it doesn't list the Dick Gaughan CD on Wundertuete -sp?- so I guess that's no longer available).

(Don't try accessing "Spanish: Galician and Asturian" from the Celtic section of their menu . . it gives a list of about 400 results, and I couldn't spot any APPROPRIATE results there . . Similarly the German: Kletzmer and Jewish category doesn't give any results, while the separate themed link for Kletzmer does include some German records . . )

Yes, Wolfgang, "awfully expensive" seems pretty fair . . If it does appear under the Christmas tree do let us know what the quality of the CDs is like!!

Thanks to you both, and to the other contributers.

George


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Letty
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 05:52 AM

Re: (If you can lay your hands on any Zupfgeigenhansel recordings, hold on to them!)

Zupfgeigenhansel and Liederjan recordings can be ordered at www.amazon.de.

Letty


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: IanC
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 06:49 AM

Susanne, Wolfgang, others

Are ther any books on german folk song, folk lore etc. which I can usefully include in a new COUNTRIES/Germany subsection of the Basic Folk Library? My German is very poor, so I can't do the detailed bibliographical research I would normally do for the other books/sections but anything you can give me would add to the resource. Someone could also correct any mistakes!

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 07:22 AM

Yes, there are, Ian, but as you want to have them a bit more detailed than just "Zupfgeigenhansel" you'll have to wait for the details. A tentative list from memory to be filled with details (from the library at home):

Steinitz
Der Zupfgeigenhansel
Des Knaben Wunderhorn
Das sind unsere Lieder (Kröher)
Der Turm (?, or rather not?)
Zupfgeigenhansel (this time not a title as above, but the authors)
(here comes the one with the best notes, but I can't remember the title)

Susanne, do you think we should go down to songbooks like 'Das kleine dicke Liederbuch', 'Mundorgel', the 'Student fuer Europa' series, or stick to a small list?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 07:37 AM

Jumping back a little way; I note that the FolkWorld "editors" Top 10 for 2000 includes two German folk recordings; see:

http://www.folkworld.de/17/e/top10.html

(I usually find their musical tastes pretty good, so these might well be worth a try . . )

Just see what you find when you start tidying your electronic desk . .

G.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 08:01 AM

I was just wondering if the phrase "curly pow" appeared anywhere in German folk music?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Hollowfox
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 04:50 PM

Has anybody heard a group called Wolgemut? They're based in Berlin, but they came to Pennsylvania a couple of weeks ago. They do mostly medieval/Renaissance era pieces, and occasionally write a tune in that style. They're great; I haven't seen an "early music" group with so much energy since I saw the Baltimore Consort at Old Songs Folk Festival a few years ago. I'm a cheapskate and I bought their CD! Their website is at http://www.wolgemut.com


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: IanC
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:13 PM

Wolfgang

Thanks for the titles above. I await details with bated breath!!!

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Burke
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:47 PM

I'm trying without much luck to get some fuller citations from a US book catalog database. Here's what I've found so far.

Das sind unsere lieder : ein liederbuch / Herausgegeben von Hein & Oss Kröher; mit 32 farbigen bildern und 73 schwarzweitsen zeichnungen von Gertrude Degenhardt. Gutenberg : Büchergilde, 1977. [9], 432 p. : ill., plates ; 27 cm.

Des Knaben Wunderhorn -- Mahler wrote a piece with this title making yours difficult to locate. There appears to be a 19th cent. collection (words only?) by Ludwig Achim von Arnim. Reprinted a lot. Is this it?

Der Turm -- found a play

Zupfgeigenhansel-- like you said, recordings only found.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: IanC
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 12:54 PM

spaw

I haven't found any German versions, but there's at least one from the USA

"Prink half an hour, and put on her wad," answered the irreverent Tom, whose preparations for school consisted in flinging his cap on to his head, and strapping up several big books, that looked as if they were sometimes used as weapons of defence.

"What is a wad?" asked Polly, while Fanny marched up without deigning any reply.

"Somebody's hair on the top of her head in the place where it ought not to be;" and Tom went whistling away with an air of sublime indifference as to the state of his own "curly pow."

From "An Old Fashoined Girl" by Louisa May Alcott ... so now you know what a "Wad" is, too.

;-)
Ian


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Jim Krause
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 03:25 PM

Toadfrog,
Another thing that surprises me a bit about Mudcat is that almost no one seems to know any foreign languages (except Irish, which is decidedly the in thing.
Jie schriewe daut niemaun kaun irjent spoake auls Enjlisch vestone. Daut's faulsch. Ekj kaun kleen beet Nädasasisch, Dietsch, un Spaunisch vestone. Ekj schriewe auf Enjlisch so jedemaun kaun mie vestone, nich woa?

Translation:
You write than no one can speak any language but English. That's incorrect. I can understand a little Nether Saxon, German, and Spanish. I write in English so everyone can understand me, right?.

As far a German folksong goes, the only one I ever heard of was Du, Du Liegst Mir im Herzen, unless you count German language hymns as a type of folksong.
Jim


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 03:29 PM

Well THANK YOU Ian!!! Really! I love it!!

Even though, as you may be aware, that was a joke aimed at Wolfgang, once again, even a syupid joke can result in something neat.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 06:19 PM

Burke, your first book is a real treasure, not least for Gertrude Degenhardt's drawings. (She has also done several album sleeves.) Unfortunately, the book has not been listed in the publishers' catalogue for a year or two, so I presume it's out of print. For the last book, you could try the spelling Zupfgeigenhansl, as that was the way the original songbook was spelled, I believe.
Others, like 'The Small Fat Songbook' by Heide Buhmann and Hanspeter Haeseler (mentioned by Wolfgang above), should be difficult to find on the Net. This book was a labour of love and, as far as I know, is sold mostly by the authors, not by a commercial distributor.
There is also a 'Folk-Lexikon' by Kaarel Siniveer which lists a lot of people - not exclusively German - omits even more and ends in 1980; 'Deutsch-Folk - Searching for the lost tradition', a slim volume by Florian Steinbiss which tries to explain the roots of the German folk revival in the British and American revivals before it and touches on topics mentioned here (interesting, but by no means exhaustive); 'A History of Folk Music' by Juergen Frey and Kaarel Siniveer; and collections like 'Raeuber- und Landsknechtslieder' (Songs of robbers and mercenaries) by Wilhelm Scherf, not always reliable as to facts; collections of women's songs, ecological songs or protest songs from the German anti-nuclear movement.
You might have a look at the DVA's website - the German Folksong Archive, housed in a charming 19th century villa at Freiburg in the Black Forest. Some day I'll have to move there! As you can see frióm their website they don't confine themselves to German material - they've just purchased Dave Harker's library!


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,Rank
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 07:49 PM

Sorry, but I thought that the only country in the world where national traditions were treated with derision was England. Scotland and Ireland both have strong traditions for instance. England is becoming very dumbed down across the spectrum. Come back Margaret, all is forgiven.

To the point. Micheal Wright presented a very interesting series of workshops on the melodic Jew's harp at the Whitby festival. It appears to be very much a worldwide instrument, but one which is neglected and derided in England, while still used in Scotland and Ireland. Germany appear to have a stronger tradition here and it is one of the places you can buy good quality instruments from. Maybe Germany has other stronger traditions than England. Shouldn't be difficult.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 04:09 AM

Dear Edmund,

sorry that I missed your question at the beginning, I just returned from a longer holiday. The cause you don't hear much about German folksong in America might be the fact that they are sung in Germany (still vividly). Forget your guess about political implications, most of German folksongs are much older than the political systems who had to take them into their songbooks. You won't find many CDs of this genre on the market because you can't make so much money with them like The Beatles or E. Presley & al. Often you can get a disc or cassette produced by groups and bands of a common site (town or county), the media are sold locally. Far away from the oomtah-music (volkstuemlich) was a TV series of visits to Bavarian folk musicians under the title "Wastl Fenderl's white-blue music sheet" emitted for years by the Bavarian Network - pure folk music of the highest quality. There still goes on the traditional singing at home: I remember how I learnt some folksongs from my grandmother in her kitchen while she rummaged with the pots. Some songs I learned from a journeying blacksmith I occasionally met. And so it happens all over the country. And at our gatherings of old scoutmasters (mid50s to 70s) we still learn new songs - just for fun. There are some fine collections of German folksongs to be found in the Library of Congress: Title: Deutscher Liederhort, and personal name: Erk (THE classical collection, 19. century) Title: Deutsche Lieder, and Keyword any place: Insel (With new songs of the 20. century, too) Title: Zupfgeigenhansl (wonderful small collection with fine silhouettes). Alas, a lot of contributors of this thread are a bit careless with their orthography. Note the different writing of Zupfgeigenhansl (title) and Zupfgeigenhansel (corporate name). Of the latter, Thomas' family name is NOT Fritz, but Friz! (Met him two years ago at a private song festival). About a folk revival and the role of Burg Waldeck I can't say much; at this time we had sung for so many years the folksongs we loved with the scouts and at school.

Sing and enjoy, Wilfried


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 04:41 AM

Wilfried,

Thanks for your post. I would like to get hold of a recording by Zupfgeigenhansel, since they come so highly recommended.

Perhaps you can answer another idle question of mine. Does German folk music have a tradition of the "night visiting song". This is the genre of song which goes like this:

Boy, knocking on girl's window: Let me in. I'm freezing.

Girl: No, I can't. My parents will hear.

Boy: Oh, come on. They won't hear anything.

Girl: OK

Following which, they either roll in each other's arms the whole night long, or else the mother does hear and gives the daughter a thrashing, while the boy beats a retreat. A singer I heard at a festival recently referred to these, as a joke, as "fenster lieder". It occurs to me that there might be real fenster lieder in German.

Edmund


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 05:21 AM

Edmund,
Night visiting song (engl. transl. of German original)

Dat Du min leevsten büst (hidden in the thread), the best known German (dialect) night visiting song

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:05 AM

Wolfgang, thanks once again. Your computer skills and knowledge of music leave me in awe. Do you have any details on the Folkfriends LP. Is it too much to hope for that it has been reissued on CD?

Edmund


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:32 AM

Edmund,
there have been two Folk Friends double-LPs and they seem to be reissued as CDs, look here for one of them. The track list seems to me very close to the original double LP, but I would have to check at home with my LPs to make sure. Susanne (above) has linked to 'Old songs new songs' which might be a better place to order these CDs.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:46 AM

OK Wolfgang (lyric challenge alert) - several years ago I had an employee from Kronberg (im Taunus) who had recently finished his National Service in the Alpenjäger Artillery (take that 120mm mortar to the top of the mountain on a donkey? Right away, sir!). One one of many pleasant beery nights in the pub, he taught me a cheery little song which, due to the passage of time, I have forgotten. Maybe you could remind me...

Something about 'As I was walking to Paris' and meeting a little lady who provided me with gebäck... I can sort of remember the tune, and that it was quite funny in a double-entendre way.

Maybe it's not a brilliant song, but I was overjoyed to learn a mucky and humorous song in German at the time. It overcame a few preconceptions, I can tell you.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 07:19 AM

England is becoming very dumbed down across the spectrum. Come back Margaret, all is forgiven.

No it bloody isn't, and never will be. That was when the rot set in.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:10 AM

So our Guest is ready to forgive Margaret . .

Who in her turn is all too ready to forgive Pinochet . .

Who appears to be something of a fan of Franco . .

Who we all know to have been a good friend of Hitler . .

Who is not unconnected with the cloud which overshadows German folk music.

So it IS all on topic after all!

G.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 04:39 PM

Sing Out! magazine had an article entitled, "Folk Music in Germany, The Replenished Wellspring" in the Winter 1997 issue (Vol. 42, No. 3), and an article entitled, "Alde Deitsche Lieder; The Pensylvania German Folk Music Tradition," in the May/June/July 1997 issue (Vol. 42, No. 1). Back issues can be ordered here.

In the first article the author, Ken Hunt, states (perhaps optimistically, given the thoughts of those above?), "Today, Germany is no longer burdened with the perception that its 'lost tradition' is the goose of propaganda force-feeding or, at the other extreme, the lamb of politicla malnourishment. German folk music has broken free of its association with state politics." He recommends Tanz&FolkFeset Rudolstadt in early July, and its cds produced each year. There's a long list of recommended recordings at the end of the article,and contact info for numerous groups.

Tthe second article focuses on the dying Pennsylvania German dialect (and associated music) and folks who are working to preserve it. A few small festivals are mentioned, and a few cassettes listed.

(I've got no particular expertise in either area, but the thread caught my eye because of my mother's Pennsylvania German family connections, and I remembered seeing these articles. Hope they're of use.)

~ Becky in Tucson, Arizona


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Rank
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 05:46 PM

We seem prone to remember the bad things, but not the good. Margaret I seem to think was elected and has therefore to shoulder the blame for the wrongs of the English people. It is the English people who don't buy British lamb, beef, cars, and oodles of other products. If we don't have a manufacturing base anymore who is to blame? The same people who laugh and jeer at morris dancers are embarassed by our oral tradition and who watch soap operas on television all the time.

I seem to think Hitler was elected too. I presume it follows that he did everything himself then.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 10:53 PM

Thanks again, Wolfgang. By the way, I've ordered the "Ich hatte ein Kameraden" book and CD set. I'll let you know how it turns out (unless you're expecting to get it for Christmas and you want it to be a surprise.)

Edmund


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Subject: A Basic German Folksong Library
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 05:56 AM

Dai,
I cannot help with the song, the equivalent to Mudcat Forum for German songs is here. You may post in English there.

German political and folk songs during the revival is a short and interesting online article.

Ian (but not only Ian),
below you find a short list of German folksong books

Wolfgang

A Basic German Folksong Library

There are innumerable German folksong books of which I know only a small part and the best of those I know are below. It is a very personal choice and I add some remark to make clear what to expect in the unlikely case you should consider buying them. One of them, Steinitz, I once have donated to the Cecil Sharp Library (London) for their patience and kindness when I was there for days in succession. If it is still open to the public you should be able to see it there.
The 'must have' are in boldface (from a collector's point of view, the 'must have ' from a singer's point of view is the last entry).

L. A. von Arnim & C. Brentano, Des Knaben Wunderhorn (the lad's miraculous horn), orig. 1806/1808, many reprints, e.g. from DTV, 3 volumes, 1984.
notes: about 1500 songs without tunes, no explanation to the songs, at least in my edition
comment: an old and at that time very valuable collection, many of the songs not sung today

W. Steinitz, "Der grosse Steinitz", Deutsche Volkslieder demokratischen Charakters aus sechs Jahrhunderten (The big Steinitz, German folksongs of a democratic character from six centuries), 2 vol., East-Berlin, 1955, later reprints e.g. by Zweitausendeins, probably out of print today and very hard to find.
notes: about 300 songs not counting variants and parodies, no tunes, scholarly annotated
comment: the nearest I know to Child, edited in the GDR, therefore a predictable political bias with notable omissions, but a great book nevertheless

E. Klusen, Deutsche Lieder (German songs), Insel Verlag, 1980
notes: about 800 songs with tunes and annotations
comment: no bias whatsoever discernible for me, a great collection from the earliest known songs until today

H. Breuer, Der Zupfgeigenhansl (Johnny with a guitar), orig. 1908, many reprints until today by Schott Verlag.
notes: about 250 songs with tunes and chords; attention some reprints are in the original 'fraktur' writing (a page in Fraktur as an example) that makes reading difficult if you are not used to it.
comment: songs sung by the 'Bündische Jugend', the nonmilitary faction of the boy scouts, in the political spectrum you might called them the conservative antiauthoritarians)

The next three are examples from the left-wing folksong revival in the 1960s. They are more or less interchangeable with a big overlap in songs. One of them would be enough for a collector:

H. & O. Kröher, Das sind unsere Lieder (These are our songs), Edition Büchergilde, no date
notes: 218 songs with tunes and short annotations
comment: more international in the choice of songs than the other two; a rare find in it is a German version of Whiskey in the jar

T. Friz & E. Schmeckenbecher, Es wollt' ein Bauer früh aufstehn (a farmer wanted to stand up early), Pläne Verlag, 1978
notes: 222 songs with tunes and short annotations
comment: more old German songs than the other two

A. Stern, Lieder gegen den Tritt (songs against the marching step), Politische Lieder aus fünf Jahrhunderten (Political songs from five centuries), Asso Verlag, undated.
notes: more than 300 songs with tunes and short annotations
comment: more political songs than the other two)

H.W.Schmidt, Uns geht die Sonne nicht unter, Lieder der Hitler Jugend (The sun doesn't go down for us, songs of the Hitler youth), 1934, out of print in Germany, no reprints allowed, only available outside of Germany second hand at those places where you get Nazi symbols and all that crap
notes: about 150 songs with tunes and without any comment, attentiononly available in Fraktur print (see Zupfgeigenhansl)
comment: I have long considered not mentioning it here but I have decided to include it for its historical value and to add an antidote (next entry); many of the songs are common German folksongs, only about 20% of them are explicit Nazi songs

no editor, Das Lagerliederbuch, Lieder gesungen, gesammelt und geschrieben im Konzentrationslager Sachsenhausen, 1942 (songs sung, collected, and written in Sachsenhausen concentration camp), Pläne Verlag, 1980.
notes: about 130 songs without tunes and annotations, attention in reprinted handwriting, not always easy to read
comment: this is a reprint of a handwritten illegal booklet existing in Sachsenhausen concentration camp in which the inmates collected their songs, old and new. The famous anti-Nazi songs (e.g., peatbog soldiers/Moorsoldaten) are in there as well as common German folksongs. Some of the songs are even the same songs as found in the Hitler youth songbook of their wardens.

K. Schilling & H. König, Der Turm (the tower), Voggenreiter Verlag, 1952ff (new editions continuously altered)
notes: more than 500 songs with tunes and chords, but not annotated; attention my fairly recent edition is still in Fraktur print (see Zupfgeigenhansl), I don't know if the very conservative boy scouts leadership considers compromising with modern times regarding the print
comment: the songbook of the boy scouts, songs old, new and international

H. Buhmann & H.P. Haeseler, Das kleine dicke Liederbuch (little thick songbook), 3rd edition 1983, own printing, out of print now according to Amazon, will be reprinted soon
notes: more than 300 songs with tunes and chords, short annotations
comment: songs that are sung in Germany today, most still in German, from old folksongs to very new songs from the hit parades, the German equivalent to 'Rise up singing'. If you want to buy only one book to be able to sing with Germans when meeting them, you should buy this book.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: IanC
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:01 AM

Wolfgang

Thanks a lot. Working on it. I'll put a message on the Basic Folk Library PermaThread when it's all in. Shouldn't be too long.

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:02 AM

and now with the boldface closed:

A Basic German Folksong Library

There are innumerable German folksong books of which I know only a small part and the best of those I know are below. It is a very personal choice and I add some remark to make clear what to expect in the unlikely case you should consider buying them. One of them, Steinitz, I once have donated to the Cecil Sharp Library (London) for their patience and kindness when I was there for days in succession. If it is still open to the public you should be able to see it there.
The 'must have' are in boldface (from a collector's point of view, the 'must have ' from a singer's point of view is the last entry).

L. A. von Arnim & C. Brentano, Des Knaben Wunderhorn (the lad's miraculous horn), orig. 1806/1808, many reprints, e.g. from DTV, 3 volumes, 1984.
notes: about 1500 songs without tunes, no explanation to the songs, at least in my edition
comment: an old and at that time very valuable collection, many of the songs not sung today

W. Steinitz, "Der grosse Steinitz", Deutsche Volkslieder demokratischen Charakters aus sechs Jahrhunderten (The big Steinitz, German folksongs of a democratic character from six centuries), 2 vol., East-Berlin, 1955, later reprints e.g. by Zweitausendeins, probably out of print today and very hard to find.
notes: about 300 songs not counting variants and parodies, no tunes, scholarly annotated
comment: the nearest I know to Child, edited in the GDR, therefore a predictable political bias with notable omissions, but a great book nevertheless

E. Klusen, Deutsche Lieder (German songs), Insel Verlag, 1980
notes: about 800 songs with tunes and annotations
comment: no bias whatsoever discernible for me, a great collection from the earliest known songs until today

H. Breuer, Der Zupfgeigenhansl (Johnny with a guitar), orig. 1908, many reprints until today by Schott Verlag.
notes: about 250 songs with tunes and chords; attention some reprints are in the original 'fraktur' writing (a page in Fraktur as an example) that makes reading difficult if you are not used to it.
comment: songs sung by the 'Bündische Jugend', the nonmilitary faction of the boy scouts, in the political spectrum you might called them the conservative antiauthoritarians)

The next three are examples from the left-wing folksong revival in the 1960s. They are more or less interchangeable with a big overlap in songs. One of them would be enough for a collector:

H. & O. Kröher, Das sind unsere Lieder (These are our songs), Edition Büchergilde, no date
notes: 218 songs with tunes and short annotations
comment: more international in the choice of songs than the other two; a rare find in it is a German version of Whiskey in the jar

T. Friz & E. Schmeckenbecher, Es wollt' ein Bauer früh aufstehn (a farmer wanted to stand up early), Pläne Verlag, 1978
notes: 222 songs with tunes and short annotations
comment: more old German songs than the other two

A. Stern, Lieder gegen den Tritt (songs against the marching step), Politische Lieder aus fünf Jahrhunderten (Political songs from five centuries), Asso Verlag, undated.
notes: more than 300 songs with tunes and short annotations
comment: more political songs than the other two)

H.W.Schmidt, Uns geht die Sonne nicht unter, Lieder der Hitler Jugend (The sun doesn't go down for us, songs of the Hitler youth), 1934, out of print in Germany, no reprints allowed, only available outside of Germany second hand at those places where you get Nazi symbols and all that crap
notes: about 150 songs with tunes and without any comment, attentiononly available in Fraktur print (see Zupfgeigenhansl)
comment: I have long considered not mentioning it here but I have decided to include it for its historical value and to add an antidote (next entry); many of the songs are common German folksongs, only about 20% of them are explicit Nazi songs

no editor, Das Lagerliederbuch, Lieder gesungen, gesammelt und geschrieben im Konzentrationslager Sachsenhausen, 1942 (songs sung, collected, and written in Sachsenhausen concentration camp), Pläne Verlag, 1980.
notes: about 130 songs without tunes and annotations, attention in reprinted handwriting, not always easy to read
comment: this is a reprint of a handwritten illegal booklet existing in Sachsenhausen concentration camp in which the inmates collected their songs, old and new. The famous anti-Nazi songs (e.g., peatbog soldiers/Moorsoldaten) are in there as well as common German folksongs. Some of the songs are even the same songs as found in the Hitler youth songbook of their wardens.

K. Schilling & H. König, Der Turm (the tower), Voggenreiter Verlag, 1952ff (new editions continuously altered)
notes: more than 500 songs with tunes and chords, but not annotated; attentionmy fairly recent edition is still in Fraktur print (see Zupfgeigenhansl), I don't know if the very conservative boy scouts leadership considers compromising with modern times regarding the print
comment: the songbook of the boy scouts, songs old, new and international

H. Buhmann & H.P. Haeseler, Das kleine dicke Liederbuch (little thick songbook), 3rd edition 1983, own printing, out of print now according to Amazon, will be reprinted soon
notes: more than 300 songs with tunes and chords, short annotations
comment: songs that are sung in Germany today, most still in German, from old folksongs to very new songs from the hit parades, the German equivalent to 'Rise up singing'. If you want to buy only one book to be able to sing with Germans when meeting them, you should buy this book.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:26 AM

Rank Guest: I think what you wrote is utter nonsense, but this is not the thread in which discuss it. So if you want that discussion do post your view in a thread of its own - and remember to attach a BS label to it.

Wolfgang, thanks as ever for the effort you are putting into making us better informed.

G.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:56 AM

Edmund,

in former times a lot of young men tried to meet their loved ones in their rooms, mostly via the window. In Bavaria tgey used ladders, and this way has an own term of technology: Fensterln = windowing. Naturally, there are a lot of songs about rejection at the window or at the door.

Unfortunately I only know one song which I learned in the famous Hessian Jaeger-Bataillon (first in Yorktown, last out). It is an old folksong, originally in 3/4, but by the soldiers it was transformed to 4/4 an 6/4, in a long striding pace preferred by them for marching purposes. It runs like this:

1. The moon is shing bright, so I can't sleep this night. I have an appointment with my girl. To my girl I must go, before her window I stop standing. 2.Who is knocking outside, so I can't sleep all the night? I won't rise, since my parents aren't sleeping yet. 3. I'll give you a shining dollar (Taler), if you let me sleep with you this night. - Take your dollar and march off home; look for another one for sleeping! 4. Youll cry and lament because you let me sleep alone this night. You'll be sorry and will wish you had the dollar in your purse.

Sometimes I still sing it in the bathtub, but it is best performed by a marching platoon.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:29 AM

Wolfgang's list of songbooks can't go unopposed.

At first there is missing the most important collection: Deutscher Liederhort, coll. by Ludwig Erk, ed. by Franz M. Boehme. Originally printed in 1893 it was repr. 1963 by Olms in Hildesheim.

Steinitz's work is excellent, and of a high scientific approach. He discusses a lot of variants of the songs. Unfortunately Buhmann and Haeseler in their little thick songbook are of the opposite persuasion. Their book can be used only with the utmost caution, because the lyrics are corrupted, changed or whole parts left out. The comments to the song may be correct from the leftist point of view but they are mostly wrong; wishful thinking is the opposite of scientific work.

W.'s comment about the songbook Der Turm (the Tower) semms to follow the same path. The font face has nothing to do with the alleged conservatism of scout masters. As anybody used to read can see, it isn't Fraktur, but written by hand in an easy going face without much roundings.

This book is NOT the songbook of the Boy Scouts; it was only adapted by the numerous scout organizations in Germany together with their own official songbooks. It's roots are in the romantic non-boy-scout youth movement of the early fifties. It doesn't contain many traditional German folksongs, but songs from this movement. A second volume was published in the beginnig of the sixties, containig mostly internatinal folksongs, some old compositions of the 16. century for 4-5 voices, and a special section: the crazy tower with a lot of funny songs. Especially the great international section was of good use for us in understanding foreign people (according to Herder's famous title the voices of the peoples in theit songs).

An addition to the Zupfgeigenhansl (Johnny Guitar): There is an edition by Scherrer, Royal Bavarian Chamber Guitarrist, with easy accompaniments for guitar (my edition of 1917). If you ever have the chance to come across, grab it and hold it.

Sing and enyoy

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:58 AM

A page with links to German songs and a short bibliography

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 08:12 AM

Wilfried,
I'm grateful for all additions for my list isn't thought as a closed list which I am willing to 'defend'.
You're right in correcting my statement about the font in Der Turm. Sorry about my mistake.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: IanC
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 08:13 AM

Wolfgang

Should I put stuff under COUNTRIES / Germany or COUNTRIES / Deutschland ?

Thanks!
Ian


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 08:25 AM

Ian,
very slight bias for 'Germany', but it doesn't really matter.
Could you please correct my error in Der Turm which Wilfried has pointed out? Easiest way is to replace my old note to that book by:

note: more than 500 songs with tunes and chords, but not annotated; attention: my fairly recent edition is still in a difficult to read handwriting print, I don't know if the very conservative boy scouts leadership considers compromising with modern times regarding the print

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: IanC
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 12:39 PM

Wolfgang / Wilfried

I've now added the Germany section to the web version of < a href=http://www.kirbymanor.cwc.net/BookList/FolkLibrary.html>The Folk Libraru. Could you check it out for any inaccuracies.

Thanks
Ian

PS. There are some more items of information on this thread yet to be added.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 01:01 PM

I could be pursuaded to transcribe the lists from the Sing Out! article ("A Beginner's Guide to German Folk Recordings" and the list of groups) if there's interest.

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 01:20 PM

May I try to persuade you, Becky? I'd love to see those lists.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Rank
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:22 PM

To George H

Sorry if you missed the point, but I agree it's getting too much a side issue.


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Subject: Beginner's Guide to German Folk Recordings
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 01:45 AM

From Sing Out! Magazine, Vol. 42 #3, article by Ken Hunt (I've not included the full notes on each, and please forgive the lack of diacriticals):

    A Beginner's Guide to German Folk Recordings

    Steffen Basho-Junghans (guitarist): "Guitar Soli" (Takoma #8902), "Fleur De Lis 1" (Blue Moment rts #004) and Fleur De Lis 2 (#005)

    Dissidenten (world beat): "Sahara Electrik" (Exil #5505), "The Jungle Book" (Exil #5516), "Instinctive Traveler" (Exil #5535), http://www.exil.de

    Thomas Felder (Austrian dialect - Swabian): "Schwaebische Vesper" (Musik & Wort #900)

    Hoelderlin Express (includes electric hurdy gurdy (!)): "Holderlin Express" (Akku Disk #3025), "Electric Flies" (#3028)

    Hundsbuam Miserablige ("a key element in the scene"): "Hundsbuam Miserablige" (BMG/Lawine #74321 34211), "Hui" (BMG/Lawine #74321 47599)

    JAMS (dance music): "Bastard" (Wundertute #146), "Bastardmusik" (#156), "Fisch" (John Silver #004) http://members.aol.com/jamsberlin

    Klaus der Geiger (Klaus von Wrochem, fiddler & fire and brimstone street preacher): "Klaus der Geiger und die Kolner Strassenmusiker" (MiC #8853 2)

    The Merlons (early music style): "Naked Nature" (musical Tragedies #12242)

    Cathrin Pfeifer (accordionist formerly with JAMS): "Panico na Panificadora" (TonArt #005)

    Christof Stahlin (songwriter): "Promenade" (Nomen + Omen #15)

    Trio Grande (a quartet, instrumental): "Nabucodonosor" (Verlag der Spielleute #9005), "Bagage" (#9501), http://www.reichmann.de/triogrande

    U.L.M.A.N. (dance music): "Acoustic Power" (RUM/Lowezahn #2122)

    Wacholder (post WWII folk music): "In Der Heimat Ist Es Schon (Stockfisch #357.6009; 1994), "Landgang" (Stockfisch #357.6015; 1996)

    Zapf'nstreich (instrumental): "MCMXCVI" (Pantaleon Records #10028; 1996)

    Collections:

    Bavarian: "Munchen" (Tridont #0899) and "Bayern" (#0196) - derived from recordings made ca. 1900-1940.

    From the Rudolstadt world music festival: "Tanz&FolkFest Rudolstadt 1991" and annually (Hai Deck)

----------

It's apparent that Ken Hunt was using "folk" in the broad sense, rather than meaning strictly traditional music. Perhaps you can comment on these, Wolfgang? Contact information for all the record companies is also listed in the article.

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 08:22 AM

Dear Ian,

have checked your list, thank you for taking some of my hints. This weekend I have a lot to do, but will send my comments and corrections soon. Are you interested in more German songbooks?

Tried to send you this message via your web page mentioned above, but got the report: "unable to find the server".

Best regards Wilfried


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM

Desert Dancer, thanks for copying out the list. Must have been quite a task!

Quite a few of the names in the list are from 'the new states', the late GDR. Steffen Junghans took his middle name in reverence to Robbie Basho - a hint at the direction of his musical tastes.
Dissidenten were one of the best-known GDR bands, but I wouldn't have listed them under folk. (Maybe that's because my taste doesn't run to folk rock.)
JAMS have been mentioned. They call their music 'bastard music' because it's a mixture of everything they like, from trad tunes to Balkan styles and folk rock. I believe they also see it as a political statement, namely that there is no 'pure' culture, that all culture is a mixture of influences.
Cathrin Pfeifer does not play 'German' folk music, either, as is apparent from the title given.
U.L.M.A.N. are two brothers and a cousin, all very young when they first shot to fame on the folk scene some ten years ago. Their father (uncle) Peter Ullmann was in the thick of the GDR folk scene for as long as it existed, and now organises Rudolstadt Folk Festival, so they grew up steeped in folk music. They are no traditionalists, though, but have developed their own distinctive style.
Wacholder was a trio of folk stalwarts and goes back a long way, I believe. After being reunited with the rest of Germany they did joint tours with Dick Gaughan, the Sands Family and Iain MacKintosh, among others, but finally decided to pack it in last year.
Zapf'nstreich I don't know, not even where they're from.
Thomas Felder and Christof Staehlin are two of the best German songwriters, with a very definite political slant. Felder writes in his native 'badisch' dialect, from the Black Forest area. Staehlin has a very idiosyncratic style, which can get monotonous, but his lyrics are definitely worth studying.
Hoelderlin Express is another outfit integrating many different influences into their take on folk music. (I'm not sure they still exist, though.)
Hundsbuam - I know their name but not their music, so I'd better pass on this one. Same goes for Trio Grande.
Klaus der Geiger is (iirr) a classically trained violinist who decided about thirty or forty years ago to spend his life as a busking fiddler and singer of political songs in and around Cologne. He is a legend on the folk scene, and I believe he has recently published a book of memoirs.

Ken Hunt seems to have made a rather eclectic choice of German folk music, but this may have to do with the content of his article. Maybe he thought bands like Bierfiedler and Liederjan (who both celebrated their 25 years together recently) too popular to mention, but they have certainly had a seminal influence on the German folk scene and are still going strong, as are songwriters like Hannes Wader, Helmut Debus from East Friesland and the Biermoesl Blosn from Bavaria. I'd have expected him to mention Grenzgaenger, the duo that did the CD of German emigration songs and won the German Folk Award and other prestigious awards in 1995. The dance scene hasn't been mentioned, but that's a topic I leave to more knowledgeable people.
Apologies again for the length of my posting. I must have too much time on my hands! (Not that I've noticed so far ...)


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 02:44 AM

Ian, Wolfgang and others,

over the weekend I have looked up some German songbooks in print. Look at my page

http://www.uni-giessen.de/~gb1053/mudcat.htm#songbook

and rejoice with me in nr 100 of the thread.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 06:22 AM

Thanks Becky,

Susanne knows more than I do about German folk, so I can't add anything to her comments.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: IanC
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 07:50 AM

Wilfried

Thanks for all. Will get back to corrections and everything when I can.

:-)
Ian


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Ringer
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 09:31 AM

Susanne knows more than I [Wolfgang] do about German folk...

Wow! (that's an expression of amazement at Susanne's knowledge, not at Wolfgang's bashfulness)


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 06:02 PM

Actually, my knowledge is limited too, so I'm still waiting for someone to give us the benefit of their real and extensive knowledge ...
I've also considered posting more modern German song lyrics here, but as I don't manage the things I've promised to do so far, on Mudcat and elsewhere, this plan has to be abandoned till I retire from my job in about 15 years.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 08:09 AM

We'll be waiting, Susanne . . .

Oh, and regarding your remark that Wacholder toured with Dick Gaughan after re-unification . . it's worth noting that Gaughan has long-standing connections with Germany; one of his finest albums ("Different Kind of Love Song") was recorded for Folk Freak (now Wundertute, I believe) and he appeared on a couple of other albums of theirs. Plus he had a longstanding "critical friendship" with a University professor in the GDR . .

Did you ever get to do that interview with him, by the way?

George


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:13 AM

Edmund,

the night visiting song I wrote you about you can find on my special page for mudcatters
It just fits the description you gave on Sep. 6: boy knocking at girl's window and begging her to let him in.
Wolfgang's hint to "Dat du min Leevsten büst" doesnt fit, methinks. It is an invitation by a girl to visit her, and she is describing the way to her bedroom by entering the door.

Wilfried


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Subject: Lyr Add: TRINA
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:59 AM

One more 'night visiting song' from the North of Germany in Frisian language, barely understandable for Germans:

Trina

1. Trina, kumm mal vör de Döör, kumm mal'n beten rut!
Ik will di wat Nees vertelln un du büst miene Bruut. (x2)

2. Nee, dat warr ik blieven laten, Moder paßt uns op.
All de Döörn de sünd verdslaten, un keen Minsch kann rop. (x2)

3. Tööf, ik will de Ledder hal'n, de an'n Hauböhn steiht.
De will ik an't Finster setten, wat na Straat nät geiht. (x2)

4. Doch de Olsch, de harr wat markt, se keem de Stuuv herut!.
Tööf, di schall de Dü:vel hal'n un Tina diene Bruut. (x2)

5. Hans de dach, de Düvel keem un dat seeg ok meist so ut.
He leet Strümp un Tüffel stahn un sprüng ut't Finster rut. (x2)

6. So rönn de den Hoff henlang, un denn to'n Doorweg rut.
Sien Büx de blev up't Heck behang'n, un dat seeg putzig ut. (x2)

content: "Trina" is a funny and jolly song of courtship in the Frisian fashion, namely that of love and bonking before marriage. Our hero, Hans, persuades his intended, Trina, that the time was ripe and he would fetch a ladder to gain access to her bedroom and then perform the necessary ceremonies. This was duly accomplished but our happy pair were rudely disturbed by Trina's mother, a kill-joy if ever there was one. Hans, believing her mother to be the devil, jumped out of the window and fled for his life leaving not only Trina behind, but also his trousers.

both song and description copied and pasted.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,Ranks (writing from Work)
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:32 AM

Hi,

I would like to add a collection I found in the University Library in Bochum. The Parson Louis Pinckh (I cannot remember the Proper spelling) collectes Songs in the Elsace Area. The four Books are full of wonderful german songs, none of the revival Bands ever performed (except me once or twice).

After all, I do not think German Folkmusic is better or worse than English or Irish. True, it has been abused by Nazis, but you cannot blame the songs, can you? I am sure, if you translated some English songs into German, the German-Irish Bands would not sing it any more. The tunes and dances are a really a bit simple, but so are the English Dance Tunes played by the Old Swan Band, Flowers and Frolics etc. If you listen to some of the Jimmy Shand Tunes, they could almost be played by German Oompah bands. If they were, German folkies would hate them. Mind you, the famous Jimmy Sturr Polka Band from USA plays a tune called "Krakowiak" which is the same as Liederjan recorded on one of their albums. The same tune exists in England (I forgot the name) an was recorded by the Old Swan Band.

Greetings,

Ranks


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:58 PM

Wilfried, Wolfgang was quite correct - 'Dat du min Leevsten buest' is THE Low German night visiting song. Whenever I hear one of the innumerable maudlin renditions preferred by our radio stations (and some bands) I ask myself, Don't they realise this song is about SEX?
Slight correction to Wolfgang's last post as well (sorry!): The language of 'Trina' isn't Frisian but Low German, from the west coast of Schleswig-Holstein where I was born. I would have a lot more trouble understanding it if it was Frisian, but I was brought up speaking Low German, and the lyrics are quite familiar.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Snuffy
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:25 PM

Night visiting:

Komm Du to Middernacht
Komm Du Klock een
Fadder slöppt, Modder slöppt
Ik slöpp aleen

Sorry if the spelling's not right. Is this Theodor Storm? Has it alreay been mentioned? (I couldn't see it)

Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:31 AM

Snuffy,
it's not a Storm poem, but the second stanza of the song "Dat du min Leevsten büst", referred to above. By the way, T. Storm wrote in High German; until now I didn't find poetry done by him in Low German.

Susanne,
no dispute about the qualities of "Dat du ...", but nevertheles it doesn't fit to Edmunds question about boy knocking at girl's and begging to be let in.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:46 AM

You can talk about "knocking up" girls, but not "knocking at" them, as far as I know . .

Sorry, couldn't resist the smart-arsed comment - I know you meant at their windows . .

G.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:53 PM

Sorry, Wilfried, whatever you believe, it IS about a boy coming to visit his girl at the dead of knight! The unusual thing is it's sung from the girl's viewpoint, and she advises him to knock at her chamber door. Actually, there is one little-known verse where she guides him to her bed through the dark room. (This could be a later addition, but it's in keeping with the original.)


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:14 AM

George,
beg your pardon. I omitted "window".

Susanne,
alle meine Liederbuecher fuehren nur 3 Strophen, die 3. beginnt: "Fat an de Kammerdöör...". Bitte schick mir die 4. Strophe.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Rollo
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 05:02 PM

In the Lower Saxony town of Scheessel the traditonal dance group "The Beekscheepers" have preserved a lot of northern german dances including music and dance patterns, along with original dresses. (Most folklore groups only have re-designed dresses, because no original clothes were preserved, I was told). The most precious pieces are a the so-called "Scheesseler Bunte" dances, which originate in this town and were preserved till today. I was told they are quite famous in the "scene".

They have produced a CD, wich includes dance tunes from northern germany, denmark, sweden and norway, but I strongly recommend a visit to Scheessel on may 1st, when there is "Season's Opening" in the museum every year, to hear and see them live, or visiting the big "Internationales Trachtenfest" folklore show, every two years in summer, when they invite guest groups from germany and all over the world.

If anyone is interested in the original "Scheesseler Bunte" dance tunes including dance patterns I will be glad to establish a contact to their band leader (wich happens to be my brother...). Just send end me a personal message.

They also have a homepage: www.beekscheepers.de www.beekscheepers.de


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 09:54 AM

"Ich hatt' einen Kameraden" finally arrived the day before yesterday.

The book is beautifully printed, and even with my limited German it's obvious that it is a very scholarly work, from the point of view of military history as well as folklore. It has the words and lyrics to hundreds of songs. It made me want to run out and sign up for German lessons. I am definitely going to learn some of these songs.

There are two CDs included. They are nothing less than stunning. The singing is a little rough, but very effective. The arrangements are unlike any German music I've ever heard. This is why I started this thread in the first place. The songs .... I hardly know what to say. Can you imagine what it was like for someone like me, who knows a bit about Irish folk music, but next to nothing about the German equivalent, to hear " 's ist Alles lauter Falscheit" sung to the tune of "The Bonny Light Horseman"? This is the story of the ordinary soldiers of the Napoleonic wars becoming real in the 21st century. Now I wonder, did the Germans learn this tune from the Irish or vice versa?

Not cheap at all, but worth every pfennig.

Wolfgang: I owe you one(in fact, several)for putting me on to these CDs.

Edmund


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 05:42 PM

Edmund, the most likely answer is that it is a modern arrangement where the Irish tune was used. I've known this happen with many German bands who were steeped in Irish (Celtic?) music before they discovered German material. I have a poem by Theodor Storm (19th century, native of the North Sea shores between Hamburg and the Danish border) set to an Irish tune. Very strange when I first heard it! There are others I can't remember just now. (I'll have to supply toadfrog with another set of CDs before long. There is so much I should have sent but didn't!)


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 06:08 PM

Susanne:

That's certainly possible, and you can hear the Celtic influence in the arrangements. However, the book is so thoroughly researched, that I'm guessing Uli Otto and Eginhard Konig (sorry, no umlauts) made an effort to use authentic tunes. Also, you can't discount the close contacts between German and British soldiers during the 18th centuries and the Napoleonic wars - the King's German Legion and other units serving with the British, and Irish and Scottish mercenaries serving in any number of European armies. The authors say that the words and melody for this song are "Anonym, um 1813/14".

There's another tune on the first CD which is a German version of "Ho ro, my nut brown maiden."

Edmund


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 05:37 AM

Edmund,

I'm glad you liked it. I'll have to wait until Christmas for a pleasant surprise (well, kind of surprise).
I've profited yet from so many tips, hints and helps in Mudcat in many ways, I'm just glad one of my hints turned out to be helpful.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 03:47 PM

Irina sensibly started a new thread, so please send your contributions here! I'm hoping to add the missing verse of 'Dat Du min Leevsten buest' there soon.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 04:10 AM

David Engle, host of the Traditional Ballad Index, has a new pet project, The German Ballad Index. Take a look.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:16 AM

Thank you, Joe


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 03:30 PM

I have mentioned Klaus der Geiger before in a thread about German folk music. Here he is at last, on You Tube.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,Clueless in Seatttle
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 12:42 AM

In the seventies (?) eighties (?) a German Heavy-Metal
group called "Accept" used a snippet of a old German folk
melody in the intro of a song called "Fast as a Shark."
Apparently they intended for it to be a funny contrast to
the screaming metal assault on the eardrums which followed, but
the song had some WW2 connotations of which they were unaware at
the time they recorded the album.

Recently, I heard that same German folk melody again, during
a scene from the movie "Schultze Gets the Blues." The chorus
of the song goes something like "Heidi Heido Heida" and if it
has any other lyrics, I've never been able to make them out.
Connotations notwithstanding, it's a very infectious little
melody and I have had absolutely ZERO success in tracking
down the name of this tune. Can anyone help?


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: MudGuard
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 02:00 AM

Look at Ein Heller und ein Batzen

(here it is "Heidi Heido Haha" but although "Heidi" is a girl's name, "heidi heido heida" or "heidi heido haha" is just like "di diddle dum di diddle di" in English songs - just some funny syllables")

"Heller" and "Batzen" are old currency units.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 08:56 AM

Not so sure we've *quite* found it yet...but thank you
for your prompt response. I'm not going to give up!! :)

LS


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: oggie
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:30 AM

I have a vague memory of Roger Watson talking about doing some research in one of the German archives way back. The snag was that it had been assembled by the Nazi regime and was thus considered "tainted".

Back in the early seventies he used to sing his translation of at least one of the songs he found there "The Farmers Wife" or "Gathering Corn" I think it was called.

All the best

Steve Ogden


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 07:44 PM

Dear Herr Mudcat...

you were CORRECT!!! It was, indeed, "Ein Heller und
Ein Batzen." I found out by spending WAY more time online
than any sane person would have, actually tracking down
the current whereabouts of one of the musicians who used to
be in the Heavy Metal band who used this tune in the intro...
and he was kind enough to email me back!!!! Now I'm off
to try to find a more conventional version of this song
on a recording for sale, so I can finally hear the whole
thing. :)

Thank you again for your help!!

Lauralee


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 02:02 AM

oggie - the original must have been Ins Heu:
A farmer is persuaded by his wife to make hay but he returns stealthily an traps her with a cavallerist.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: MudGuard
Date: 20 Apr 07 - 02:13 AM

Lauralee, Herr Mudcat is Max. I am only MudGuard ;-)
But I am glad if I could help.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: toadfrog
Date: 13 May 07 - 10:16 PM

I am trying to find the rest of the words to a song that Martha Schlamme used to sing. I feel almost certain it's an old standard, but I cannot locate it on the web--maybe because I remember some of the words incorrectly. It begins:

Abends bei Mondenschein ging ich spazieren.
abends bei Mondenschein ging ich spazieren,
in den Hausgärtelein
in den Hausgärtelein
bei Mondenschein.

Sah ich ein Mägtelein, wohl ganz alleine,
Sah ich ein Mägtelein, wohl ganz alleine,
in den Hausgärtelein
in den Hausgärtelein
bei Mondenschein.

Mägtlein, was machst du hier, so ganz alleine? [etc.]

Does anyone know the rest of the song? And if the words I remember are incorrect, where is my mistake?


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 14 May 07 - 02:28 AM

Hi toadfrog,

be sure that your char code is Western (ISO-8859-1) before reading

NOT "Abends" BUT "Gestern"
NOT "in den" BUT "in das"
NOT "Mägtelein" BUT "Mägdelein"

Hearing Martha Schlamme sing 203 Bei Mondenschein it was no wonder that I didn't find the song with your beginning.

It is in ingeb.org
in a slightly different version, seeming to be incomplete (Mägdlein, was machst du hier ... missing)
3. NOT "ich bin", BUT "ich bind'"

In another link I found it listed in a songbook which we don't have in the university library - but! I own it myself and shall look it up this evening. If it is really in there you'll get the words soon.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,Joh of Elsie`s Band
Date: 14 May 07 - 09:59 AM

For a fine example of modern German folk try "Konigskinder" on their cd "Deitsch". And Gudrun is such a cracker!!
                                                 John


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Subject: ADD: Gestern bei Mondenschein
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 16 May 07 - 04:14 AM

Char code Western (ISO-8859-1)

Hi toadfrog - as promised:

Gestern bei Mondenschein

1. Gestern bei Mondenschein
ging ich spazieren
in dem Hausgärtelein,
in dem Hausgärtelein
bei Mondenschein.

2. Da saß ein Mägdelein
wohl ganz alleine
in dem Hausgärtelein, ...

3. Mägdlein, was machst du hier
so ganz alleine
in dem Hausgärtelein, ... ?

4. Ich bind ein Kränzelein
von grünen Zypressen
in dem Hausgärtelein, ...

5. Es soll dem Liebsten sein,
wenn er wird kommen
in das Hausgärtelein, ...

Bruder Singer : Lieder unseres Volkes
   Kassel : Bärenreiter, 1960
(Bärenreiter-Ausgabe ; 1250)
pg. 151

Sing and enjoy
Wilfried


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 16 May 07 - 04:24 AM

Hi oggie - coincidence:
At the Eurogathering two weeks ago fidjit sang "Gathering Corn" and was more than baffled when the Germans fell in with the chorus in German.
He also sang a version of the chorus in Norwegian, and told us that the song is also known in Romania, Moldavia, and other countries.
So I'm not so sure whether they are all translations of the German folksong. Maybe the song is common property of many languages.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: toadfrog
Date: 16 May 07 - 10:57 PM

Thanks so much! Especially for the link; I had not listened to that recording in 40 years or so, and did not go looking for it until a few days ago. It was gone!


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:19 AM

I was clicking through the channels on the TV in my hotel room in Geilenkirchen yesterday afternoon in a fruitless search for the Heineken Cup final (3 bloody news channels but no Sky Sports) when, to my delight, I came across a German talk show in which the guests were talking about, wait for it, German folk songs! My German is too limited to understand much of what they were saying, but I was able to gather that they were talking about the attitude that Germans have to their own folk songs. Somebody talked about going to France and hearing French people singing French songs in public. Somebody else said something about a time when the singing of German folk songs was (ordered? compulsory? I may have missed something in the context). I could also pick out some references to the Nazi era. One of the guests, a tall, distinguished man with a trimmed grey beard got up to sing a folk song, accompanying himself on the guitar and my breath was taken away. He had the most beautiful voice I have ever heard from a male folk singer, barring Paul Robeson. There are perhaps one or two singers now alive that I have heard and would place in his class. Luckily for me, they put a title on screen identifying him - Hannes Wader. As soon as I get home I intend to buy every recording of his that I can find. It's safe to say that he is just about completely unknown to English speaking folk music fans - what a shame.

Edmund


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:47 AM

Old Hannes Wader - sorry to have missed hm. He was one of the famous three Berliners, the others being Reinhard Mey and Ulrich Roski, often performing together.. Only Mey is still in business with some well made songs, of the others you don't hear much. Hannes Wader went on political tracks with his songs, maybe his leftist touch isn't liked nowadays so much by so many.

And nice to hear from you. Regards to C.
Wilfried


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:08 AM

And cheers to you, too, Wilfried. I can put up with his leftist politics, particularly if he sings trad songs. (He's a hell of a guitar player, from what I could judge)

We are working with a young German lawyer who didn't recognize the name Hannes Wader, so I see your point about not hearing much of him these days. He sure hasn't lost any of his musical chops, and didn't look particularly old apart from grey hair.

Edmund


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Leadbelly
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:46 AM

"Only Mey is still in business with some well made songs, of the others you don't hear much."----Wilfried

Well, because he is physically unable to do so you cannot hear much of Ulrich because he died in 2003.
Concerning Hannes it is a matter of fact that 2 month ago he performed a well recognized concert in Munich and other cities. I don't believe that his long career can be characterized by the term lefty. He still has a broad spectrum of songs (critical ones, sarcastic ones and flat-german songs). A typical lefty was Dieter Süverkrüp. To be critical does not mean to be a lefty. And if so I prefer this attitude better than the other extreme.

Mey is still in business because he isn't a real folk singer anymore.

CET--- 2001 (a mail order company)offers an excellent CD of Hannes Wader exclusively.

Manfred


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 May 07 - 12:02 PM

Thank you Joe for the reference and a particular THANK YOU to Herr Engle. Reading the Introduction is necessary. What a peculiar thing for California State University, Fresno to select as their web specialty.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:49 PM

Wilfried, Hannes is touring constantly, and as far as I know his concerts are almost always packed. He certainly doesn't have the same mass appeal as Reinhard Mey, whose songs - though I like may of them - and style I'd class as folk pop (or pop folk?).

As Manfred says, Wader has tried many things in his time - mostly self-penned songs, but also traditional songs, straight agitprop songs, Schubert lieder. He also does very good German versions of foreign songs - Alex Campbell's 'Been on the road so long', Eric Bogle's 'No Man's Land' and Allan Taylor's 'Good to see you', for instance. I wouldn't know what to call him if not 'left'. He may not be as ideological as Süverkrüp, but he is unashamedly left. One of his more recent songs (well, more a talking blues) lasts about seven minutes and tells his family's story over three generations of socialist creed and working class solidarity. Think it's on his latest album.

And yes, I have to agree with Edmund: I just love his voice.

Besides 2001, which has a wider range of products, there is a mail order service specialising in folk, Old Songs New Songs. They'll probably have all his available albums.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 May 07 - 02:11 AM

Shame on me - I stand corrected. Living in a small town (no comparison to Munich) I never saw Wader's concerts announced; I'd like to hear him again.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Leadbelly
Date: 22 May 07 - 04:39 AM

"I'd like to hear him again."

There's a real good chance to do so, Wilfried. Mainz isn't so far away from Friedberg I do believe. And there's sufficient time for making plans to pay a visit to one of these concerts (see below: Frankfurter Hof resp. Unterhaus). :-)

Manfred

Konzert
2. Halbjahr 2007

Datum
        

Ort

20.09.
        

Bargteheide, Kleines Theater

21.09.
        

Hildesheim, Vier Linden

22.09.
        

Uslar, Forum

23.09.
        

Loshausen, Dorfgemeinschaftshaus

24.09.
        

Mainz, Frankfurter Hof

25.09.
        

Mainz, Unterhaus

26.09.
        

Linkenheim-Hochstetten, Bürgerhaus

27.09.
        

Bensheim, Parktheater

28.09.
        

Nürnberg, Karstadt

29.09.
        

Jena, Volkshaus

30.09.
        

Halle, Steintor-Varieté

01.10.
        

Berlin, Universität der Künste

14.11.
        

Diepholz, Theater

15.11.
        

Bremerhaven, Theater im Fischereihafen

16.11.
        

Leer, Zollhaus

17.11.
        

Ibbenbüren, Bürgerhaus

18.11.
        

Bielefeld, Stadthalle

19.11.
        

Datteln, Stadthalle

20.11.
        

Kirn, Gesellschaftshaus

21.11.
        

Saarbrücken, Congresshalle

22.11.
        

Pforzheim, Kulturhaus Osterfeld

23.11.
        

Biberach, Stadthalle

24.11.
        

Steinheim/Murr, Bottwartalhalle

25.11.
        

Offenbach, Büsingpalais


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 May 07 - 06:41 AM

Thank you so much - Offenbach is nearer, but lovely Mainz where I studied for 3 years shall be my choice.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:23 AM

Thanks for the links.

Edmund


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: robinia
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 12:44 AM

My, but how nice to find all this interest in German folk songs! I learned a great many while studying German in the fifties and miss having people to sing them with -- especially when they harmonize so well, sometimes with the other voice (voices?) in counterpoint to the main melody line. Sung in this traditional fugal fashion, "horsch was kommt von draussen 'rein" or "wenn alle Brunlein fliessen" may still be old chestnuts, but they're far from "boring"! Of course, as an outsider, I wasn't put off by what political or other "associations" the songs might have. Songs like "Kein schoner Land" -- that it was probably sung by Hitler youth didn't sway me anymore than I was swayed by Hitler's fervent non-smoking policy. Funny, how easily THAT's forgotten. Is "association" only remembered when we want to put something down?


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 06:08 AM

I had the pleasure of marching with an international team (some still in the service, others retired) this July at the Nijmegen Four Days Marches in Holland and learned a couple of German songs from a retired Bundeswehr lieutenant-colonel: Kameraden lasst uns singen and Wir lagen von Madagaskar. I loved both these songs and my marching friend sent me lyrics and MP3s. Kameraden lasst uns singen is an army song about the infantry and I certainly hope it doesn't have Nazi origins.

Edmund


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Subject: ADD: Kameraden lasst uns singen
From: Leadbelly
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 01:03 PM

CET, sorry to say, but Kameraden, lasst uns singen seems to be a typical product of the "3. Reich". In other words, a real Nazi-song. Don't know whether you are able to understand the lyrics. But I do, because I'm german.

Kameraden lasst uns singen

Kameraden, lasst uns singen, eine Melodie.
Es soll ein Lied erklingen, auf die Infantrie.
Denn sie ist alle Zeit immer sturmbereit,
ob's auch donnert, blitzt und kracht.
Ihrem steten Kampfgelingen sei dies Lied erdacht.

Panzer und Flieger schaffen's nicht allein,
werden nie allein die Sieger auf dem Schlachtfeld sein.
Können' s nicht schaffen, ohne deinen Einsatz nie -
Königin der Waffen, deutsche Infantrie.


Mitten durch Sturm und Regen, selbst bei finst'rer Nacht,
ohne Halt dem Ziel entgegen, was auch kommen mag.
Ob auch heiß der Tag oder kalt die Nacht,
ob auch fern die Heimat ist -
dennoch singt auf allen Wegen stolz der Infantrist.

Panzer und Flieger schaffens nicht allein,
werden nie allein die Sieger auf dem Schlachtfeld sein.
Können' s nicht schaffen, ohne deinen Einsatz nie -
Königin der Waffen, deutsche Infantrie.

(Source: www.soldatentreff.de)


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 03:32 PM

I've never tried to look it up but have always wondered whether Wir lagen vor Madagaskar isn't from some film or other. It sounds more music hall than folk to my ears. Mind you, I love singing it!


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Leadbelly
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 04:23 PM

It's a german shanty of unknown origin, Susanne. At least, they say so.

Manfred


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 06:28 PM

If that song is a genuine shanty I'll eat my hat! Changing tempo, phrases (or whatever you call them) too long to work to, and it tells a story. But if they say so ... :-)


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Leadbelly
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 09:43 AM

Susanne, there is no need to eat your - hopefully - nice hat, because my comment was completely wrong. This song was composed and written by Just Scheu in the year of 1934. More or less, it's a Volkslied. For more info about Just Scheu see wikipedia.

Manfred


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 06:54 PM

Thanks, Manfred. One of those Volkslieds, then, that we have the Nazis to thank for! But I'm not prepared to take political correctness as far as stopping singing favourite songs. I also like singing Wie oft sind wir geschritten, even though I know it dates from Germany's (thankfully limited but nevertheless gruesome) imperialist past.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 07:52 AM

Such a young song and so many variants already.
Not each song written during the Nazi time is a Nazi song BTW:

Es erschien in den Liederbüchern von Gruppen der verbotenen bündischen Jugend (Edelweißpiraten, Navajos), die wegen der Übernahme solchen Liedguts in das Visier der Gestapo kamen.

from the entry about this song in the German Wiki.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Leadbelly
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 08:47 AM

That's absolutely true, Wolfgang. Moreover, as far as I know Just Scheu wasn't a Nazi. As a singer, actor and writer/composer he even has had some trouble as the following note shows:

Mit Kurt Feltz sang er den vordergründig harmlosen Schlager „Es geht alles vorüber, es geht alles vorbei", der von den Nazis verboten wurde, nachdem die Straße die Zeile „auch Adolf Hitler und seine Partei" dazudichtete. (Source: hr-online.de)

Manfred


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: bankley
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 05:40 PM

I did a couple of gigs, four years ago, filling in on guitar for a band from Trier called 'Voltaire".... a play on words. The leader's name is Woltahr Liederschmitt.... he can speak Trierese, an obscure German dialect from that area near Luxembourg.. he knows songs going back centuries, which few people outside the region have heard or can even understand.... they play a lot of wine parties in the Mosel area during the harvest...... and have many original songs with smatterings of high German, French and English.... I'm fortunate to have Woltahr as a friend, and have learnt a lot about his country's music history.... he sometimes submits articles to 'Volker' magazine.
good thread......stay well... Ron


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 02:26 AM

Leadbelly - Kamaraden, lasst uns singen surely is a song of the Wehrmacht in the 3rd Reich (tanks and airplanes mentioned), but it is no Nazi song! It takes up older songs about the tradition of the German Infantry restlessly going forward.
In the armoured song Heiss ueber Afrikas Boden we find a reference to the Fuehrer, but not in this Infantry song.

Just Scheu is unforgotten in Mainz, where he wrote some popular songs for the 5th season (Carnival)


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 08:22 AM

Objection, bankley - Trierese is not an obscure dialect, but a widespread part of the Frankish language spoken from Lotharingia (now in France) to Franconia (Northern part of Bavaria). They speak Mosel-Frankish there, I am speaking Rhine-Frankish and have seldom difficulties to understand the dialect of Trier.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 10:31 AM

Trierese is an obscure part of a widespread language.
"Aich hab zehn Kilo abgeholt" or "Aich hol den Bus" will lead each normal German down the garden path not for the pronounciation but for their idiosyncratic use of the verb holen.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 08:25 PM

Apologies - I was confusing Just Scheu with someone else whose face I can see clearly but whose name escapes me. - Just remembered: Jupp Hussels, who - even if he may not have been a Nazi - took part in the propaganda programme 'Tran und Helle'.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:09 AM

Wolfgang - Lexical differences don't make it obscure.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Stephen R.
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 11:41 AM

I can't see "Kameraden lasst uns singen" as a Nazi song. A Nazi song would glorify the party or express Nazi doctrines. Only the references to tanks and airplanes assure us that the song did not come from some pre-Nazi period. If it could be translated in meter and rhyme, and the words "deutsche Infantrie" revised, could it not have been sung by the infantry of any army in the Second World War?

Stephen


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Subject: Add: Kameraden lasst uns singen
From: Leadbelly
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:47 PM

Stephen, to tell you the truth: there's no need for a song from this period to especially glorify the NSDAP to be qualified as a nazi-song. It was written to support the purpose of Hitler to win this bloody war for which he was responsible. To motive soldiers.
That's an essential difference to other armies in WWII singing a song like this one.
Naturally, it's up to you to sing this song if you like it so much. But please don't tell to other people that this is a german folk song (see subject of this thread).It isn't.
Ironically enough, there's is another song from this time with same title which is very impressive and was written in a concentration camp. It's much more worth while than many songs sung by soldiers:

Kameraden lasst uns singen

Kameraden lasst uns singen
Lieder aus Konzentrationslagern

Kameraden, lasst uns singen
unsrer Sehnsucht schönste Lieder.
Tritt gefasst, wir singen wieder
Vöglein, hätt ich deine Schwingen.

Vöglein, hätt ich deine Schwingen,
würd ich heut noch meinen Lieben
die zu Hause sind geblieben
Gruß und Küsse selber bringen

Vöglein, hätt ich deine Schwingen
ließ ich Staub und Erde liegen
würd ich in den Himmel fliegen
bis die Wolken mich verschlingen.

Vöglein, hätt ich deine Schwingen
würd ich nimmermehr marschieren
würd ich alles Leid verlieren
würd ich wie ein Vöglein singen.

Text: Paul Rakow , geschrieben wahrend seiner Zuchthaushaft
Musik: unbekannt

Zu hören auf:

O bittre Zeit - Lagerlieder 1933-1945
(Source: www.volksliederarchiv.de)

If you like, please compare lyrics of both songs and make a choice...

Manfred


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 02:15 AM

Oh, I don't feel any urge to sing the infantry song. It still seems to me innocent of any Nazi content, and I would describe it as a Nazi-era song rather than a Nazi song. But that doesn't put it on my list of favorites. I like the concentration camp song better. The central image is of course millennia old (Psalm 54:6-8, for example); it still works as well as ever, as we see here.

Stephen


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Leadbelly
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 05:31 AM

Thanks, Stephen. Wish you the very best,

Manfred


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 06:33 PM

My ex-Bundeswehr friend used "gruener" to replace "Deutsche". I liked the song myself, and I understand enough German to figure out what it was about as soon as I heard it. For me it was a song about soldiering, which doesn't bother me at all. However, there's isn't much question which is the better song. Even with my limited German, I could appreciate the quality of Paul Rakow's lyrics. I would love to hear the tune.

I'm not sure that the infantry version doesn't qualify as a German folk song. It is certainly in German and has evidently taken its place in the folk process and is being spread in an informal manner from person to person, even if we know when and by whom it was composed. Of course, we may be dealing with different transatlantic concepts of what a folksong is.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 02:32 PM

Edmund, I'd never heard of the song till you came up with it, and I very much doubt it would be sung in a non-military setting at all. It is far too trigger-happy for a folk song, glorifying war as such - a 'Nazi-era' song rather than a Nazi song, perhaps (I'm not convinced), but far too recognisably of its time to be sung elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 04:10 PM

I agree. The setting I heard it in was military, and it did not strike me as being offensive, but I wouldn't sing it elsewhere. In fact, I'm not likely to sing it at all, unless I happen to be marching with a similar group in the future.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 15 May 08 - 06:21 PM

I've just downloaded a Hannes Wader album, "Und es wechseln die zeiten" from iTunes. It comes with the warning "explicit". There isn't much danger of me being offended, since the dirty bits, if any, will go straight over my head, but I must say I'm a little surprised. The song titles don't exactly suggest unrestrained lust or obscenity. Is Hannes Wader known for singing especially rude words?

Edmund


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: robinia
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:32 AM

"far too trigger-happy for a folk song, glorifying war as such"?   I wasn't aware that folk songs weren't allowed to glorify war; quite a few of them (like "Twa recruiting sargeants") certainly glorify soldiering as a way of escaping social responsibility. ("Laddie if ye've got a sweetheart or a bairn, ye'll easy get rid of that ill spun yairn . ..)   And what about "Johnny I hardly knew you" ? Did that song only become a "folk song" as it became an anti-war song? (There was a thread on this a while back.)   Antway, let's open our minds a bit to the possibility that "folk" can contain all sorts of thinking, and it's not all warm and fuzzy --


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,Susanne (skw) n the road
Date: 24 May 08 - 11:19 AM

Edmund, I can't think of anything rude or crude in Hannes' albums but I haven't got it with me just now. I owe you several CDs anyway (and now have the means to get to work on them), so I'll be in touch when I get home in early June.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 26 May 08 - 03:33 AM

"Anyway, let's open our minds a bit to the possibility that "folk" can contain all sorts of thinking, and it's not all warm and fuzzy --"

How right you are. I always considered anonymous soldiers' songs of all ages to be a group of the great family of folk songs, too.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Sep 11 - 11:12 PM

Der Zupfgeigenhansel Der Zupfgeigenhansl has been mentioned here many times as perhaps the best-known German folk songbook. If you search for zupfgeigenhansl on YouTube, you will find recordings of many of the songs in the songbook.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Max Johnson
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 07:03 AM

I remember a group in the '70s, I think called 'Leiderjung' or something similar. They were very popular in West Germany, sold a lot of albums and did a lot of TV. Threadbare Consort met up with them several times to swap songs and sample a couple of the local beers when we were both at the Bremen Music Festival. The two songs that they taught us which I remember were a version of 'Sailing Home (vos uber meer)', and 'Hannes, was ein hat'.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Max Johnson
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 07:07 AM

I've also just remembered that at the Saddletree Folk Club in Ripon, Yorkshire, Les Pope used to sing 'Fahren gengen England' and everyone joined in with great enthusiasm.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 07:22 AM

Objection, Joe! Methinks I have mentioned it some years ago, but I do it again:

Zupfgeigenhansl is the name of the songbook of the preWWI German youth movement.
Zupfgeigenhansel is the name adopted by a duo of the German folk scene.

Sing and enjoy
Wilfried

Mind the wee e!


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 12:48 PM

Addition: The link to Zupfgeigenhansl leads to the "new" Zupfgeigenhansl, a modernized edition with a lot of older songs omitted and others more modern added.
The old and original edition can be obtained in the Zentralverzeichnis antiquarischer Buecher[Central Catalogue of Antiquarian Books]; hundreds available.

W.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 01:02 PM

And here is the final link to the original link to the original Zupfgeigenhansl, a repro oft the prewar ed. by a modern publisher.

Warning: Searching the German amazon.de you'll only find the duo, not the songbook.


Sing and enjoy
W.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 08:08 PM

Thanks for the correction, Wilfried. I corrected my post above. The accident of my misspelling led me to the YouTube videos of the singing group Zupfgeigenhansel, and I found a lot of good music through that mistake.

I also found my misplaced copies of Der Zupfgeigenhansl (approx 1948) and Der Neue Zupfgeigenhansl (1983).

I'm guessing the date of the earlier book, Edition Schott 3586. The book is undated, but the preface says, "more than forty years have passed since Hans Breuer and his Wandervögeln (wandering birds) published the first edition of Zupfgeigenhansl. This edition is essentially the same as the first edition, but with modern typeface instead of Fraktur. The preface says that soldier songs were omitted from this edition because of the demands of the times.

The 1983 Der Neue Zupfgeigenhansl is a nice mix of German, English-language, and other folk songs. It starts with Hannes Wader's "Heute Hier, Morgen Dort." It includes Dylan's "It Ain't Me, Babe," and also "Kum Ba Yah."

Since the first edition was published in 1908 (dated 1908, but published in time for Christmas of 1908), I would htink the original book is in the public domain. Is there an online copy of an early edition of the book?

-Joe-

By the way, what does "Zupfgeigenhansl" mean? - something like "little Hans who plays the violin?


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 09:46 PM

"Zupfgeige" translates as "plucked fiddle", and was a colloquial term for the guitar. Compare "Dudelsack" for bagpipes.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 10:06 PM

I just discovered these guys yesterday by coincidence..and listened to a youtube playlist today all day at work they were so good...

I truly believe that we who can and are interested should sing German songs..eliminating those of course that are truly and definitely Nazi songs..as in commissioned by them or sprung up with Nazi sentiments. But to liberate the songs that the Nazis took over and people won't sing because of that. And I do not equate Nazi with the ordinary soldier or airman either, and presume most people do not. And I think their spirits are calling out to us right now..I just figured this out recently...like my friend told me our Irish ancestors of the potato famine were calling out to us recently...I will always be haunted by photos and films of them being marched off to prison camps (as they did to others of course). This will for a long time be where the world gets sort of stuck on something..good people doing bad things..

But further I know that how we treat an enemy in defeat is very important..and has lessons for today..they must be allowed to keep their language, their songs,and they must be allowed to grieve for their dead, which I doubt they have been able to do sufficiently.

So, we sing their songs if we can and the world gets a little bit better. mg


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 03:38 PM

Still looking for an online copy of an early edition of Der Zupfgeigenhansl. I have two more recent copies myself, but the original edition should be online and I'd like to compare.
Anybody know where this might be available?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 03:56 PM

Here is the 1920 edition of Zupfgeigenhansl for complete free download.

Sing the songs that you like and find acceptable; sing them to please yourselves and your listeners. Historical justice is a different matter.

BTW, Michael, "Dudelsack" is a derivation of Turkish "Duduk" and its Balkanese variants; no irony involved. Never be rude to a bagpiper (to quote the Pythons).


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 08:18 PM

Max Johnson, it's Liederjan you are thinking of. The personnel may have changed a bit - Joerg is the only remaining founder member - but they're still going strong and one of the very few German folk groups making (sort of) a living from music.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 10:43 PM

Thank you very much, Grishka. The 1920 edition that Grishka linked to, was published by Friedrich Hofmeister in Leipzig. My edition, 1948 or later, was published in Mainz by R. Schott's Söhne. I was surprised that the 1920 edition had a modern typeface - I expected it to be Fraktur. The books are identical to the beginning of the "Soldatenlieder" chapter on page 158. There are a few soldiers' songs missing, but not many. The newer book has 227 pages, and the 1920 edition has 238.

Can anybody give us information about Hans Breuer and the Wandervögel movement? Youth in the fatherless land tells quite a lot, but I'd like to know more. Oh - Music, power, and politics is also very interesting.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Max Johnson
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 10:43 AM

Thanks so much for that post, Susanne. Yes, it was Leiderjan. Wow, they're still going? Respect! I think that festival was 1974 or 75. The two groups sang together all afternoon at the open-air Katzencafe in Bremen - we'd only gone in for a coffee after playing there the previous day, but the landlord kept bringing us free beer to keep us singing.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Max Johnson
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 10:53 AM

It was 1976. I have a copy of their first album, which had just been released. One of the songs that we sang together was 'Die Moorsoldaten', a version of 'The Peat Bog Soldiers'.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: open mike
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 12:55 PM

Does anyone have experience or information about the Nazis co-opting German traditional music as part of their campaign ? I would also like any information on recent similar uses of folk music to promote political causes (not necessarily with the approval of the musicians)
I have heard that this is happening in Sweden, and I have heard of Irish bands that were hired to play at a Celtic festival only to find out it was a front for Nazi/White power group. this apparently has been happening in England as there is a resistance to this in the form of the Folk Against Fascism. I think this deserves its own thread, but was thinking about this as applies to German music.


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Subject: RE: Political groups abusing trad. music
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 01:22 PM

"Under the Nazi regime, all music produced had to fit within certain standards defined as "good" German music. Suppression of specific artists and their works was common, yet musicians were permitted limited artistic freedom. The Nazis attempted to create a balance between censorship and creativity in music to appease the German people.

This blend of art and politics led to a three-prong policy regarding musicians and artists:

Loyal Nazi members who were talented musicians were guaranteed a job. Loyal Nazi members who were not talented musicians were not guaranteed a job.
Any non-Jewish person who demonstrated a "genius" for music and was a member of the Reichsmusikkammer (Reich Music Chamber) was permitted employment. This exception in policy permitted musicians like conductor Wilhelm Furtwangler and composer Richard Strauss to continue working.
According to Hitler and Goebbels (Hitler's second in command), the three master composers that represented good German music were Ludwig van Beethoven, Richard Wagner, and Anton Bruckner. All three composers lived prior to the 20th century."

from the www.

It isn't about 'folk', but it it is about music.
"I think this deserves its own thread, but was thinking about this as applies to German music."

The quote is from open mike at the end of her writing.


    Threads recombined. --mudelf


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Subject: RE: Political groups abusing trad. music
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 02:03 PM

It's an old tradition, dating back at least to when Henry Ford co-opted traditional dance and song to support his narrow view of "Ameriacnism, through the 40s, when the Communists adopted it as "People's MusiC" and so on.


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Subject: RE: Political groups abusing trad. music
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 03:31 PM

I can't recall now who the religious leader was supposed to have been, Martin Luther, John Wesley, or whoever—actually, it's been attributed to about half a dozen different ones—but when criticized for writing new hymn words to old popular tunes, he responded, "Well, why should the Devil have all the best tunes?"

In the meantime, I'm quite sure that when people get upset by outfits like the Nazi Party (or a few others I can think of) co-opting folk songs, pop songs, and the works of classical composers and putting their own words to them, the Devil says something like, "Why should Beethoven have all the best tunes?"

The gate swings both ways.

In the late 1970s, I worked as an announcer in a classical music station. Great job! I would read a bit of news and the weather report at the top of the hour, do a few commercials, and spend the rest of my time playing recordings of music that I like, with a cup of coffee in my hand and my feet propped up beside the console. AND the PAID me quite well for this. Along with the cachet that goes with being an "on the air" personality with a prestigious classical music radio station.

One afternoon, I got a phone call from a very angry listener. With a German accent. He said he was a German Jew. and had barely escaped with his life during Hitler's round-up of Jews. He was outraged that I—and the station—was paying "Nazi music!" I was a bit befuddled, then I looked at the playlist, and shortly before his call, I had played "Siegfried's Rhine Jouney" from Siegfried, part of the "Ring if the Nibelungs" set of four operas by Richard Wagner.

I could see no connection. It was certainly not "Nazi music." Wagner, personally, was said to have been a nasty little twerp and he was anti-Semitic, but the music was based on Germanic-Norse mythology and had absolutely nothing to do with glorification of the Third Reich or anti-Semitism.

The connection, it seems, was the Wagner, the fact that he was German and with his Heroes and Warrior Maidens and Norse Gods and such, was one of Hitler's favorite composers.

I managed to calm the man down a bit and tried to point out to him that just because a vicious tyrant like the music of a particular composer did not necessarily mean that the composer was equally vicious, or would endorse the tyrant's ideas. And that to assume this was, in itself, an example of prejudice. We parted in a friendly manner and he agreed that would think about the matter. And that he would continue to listen to the station.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,Stuart Reed
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 04:31 PM

On a recent German tour we played a few gigs in Bayern. Our repertoire is British and Irish but we thought we'd throw in a German song, just so the locals could laugh at our pronunciation. So when we played in Traunstein we felt we couldn't pass up the opportunity to mention the Pope, who grew up there.

So we added a verse to a Liederjan song, Ach was wird denn meine Mutter sagen which we'd heard from some German friends visiting Brighton back in the 70s.

We assumed it was a well known singalong number but were surprised that no one in the audience (of several hundred) had heard it before. At first we thought that the initial silence was because the papal reference in that politically conservative area but were afterwards told that it was a Plattdeutsch song, relatively unknown in the south.
Thankfully, they began to join in after a couple of verses and laughed heartily at our feeble joke at the Holy Father's expense.

Here, in case it's of interest, is the text:


Ach was wird denn meine Mutter sagen
Wenn ich einst kehr zurück
Wenn ich dann einen Spitzbart trage
Mein Sohn, was bist jetzt du?
Ich bin Polier, fideri, fidera
Sauf nur noch Bier, fideri fidera
Ich bin Polier, sauf nur noch Bier

Ach was wird denn meine Mutter sagen
Wenn ich einst kehr zurück
Wenn ich dann einen Schnauztbart trage
Mein Sohn, was bist jetzt du?
Bin Architekt, fideri, fidera
Trink nur noch Sekt, fideri fidera
Bin Architekt, sauf nur noch Sekt

Ach was wird denn meine Mutter sagen
Wenn ich einst kehr zurück
Wenn ich dann einen Vollbart trage
Mein Sohn, was bist jetzt du?
Ich bin ein Lump, fideri, fidera
Sauf nur auf Pump, fideri fidera
Ich bin ein Lump, sauf nur auf Pump

Ach was wird meine Mutter sagen,
Wenn ich einst kehr zurück,
Und wenn ich einen Spitzbart trage.
Mein Sohn, was bist jetzt du?
Bin Ingenieur, fideri, fidera,
Trink zur Likör, fideri, fidera,
Bin Ingenieur, trink nur Likör

Ach was wird meine Mutter sagen,
Wenn ich nach Traunstein zuruckkehre
Und wenn ich keinen Schnurrbart habe.
Mein Sohn, was bist jetzt du?
Ich bin jetzt Pabst, fideri fidera
Trink nur noch Schnapps fideri fidera
Ich bin der Pabst, trink nur noch Schnapps


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 12:02 AM

That's not Plattdeutsch, that's plain Hochdeutsch. Even the thickest Bayer should have little trouble understanding it.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 08:11 PM

But it is a Northern song, and therefore probably quite unknown in Bavaria. I can't remember now, but it may actually have started out as a song in Low German.

You obviously missed Liederjan's addition. Can't remember what kind of facial hair it referred to but it ended with

Bin Folklorist, fideri fidera, sauf jeden Mist, fideri fidera ...

Adding to songs is fun! I've just found out that some friends have made a song about our hometown of Kiel using a popular Woody Guthrie song and some of its ideas.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 07:58 AM

about Stuart's post:
this song was originally a song about a soldier's return where his family is wondering whether he is their lad.
the same song was also sung by students where the mother is asking about his coloured cap, his father about his mustache, and his sister about his scarred gashes.
I don't know which one is older, but who cares? I sing both as a former soldier and student.

Sing and enjoy
Wilfried


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: bubblyrat
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 04:52 AM

Whilst living in Bielefeld , I used to go to a bar just around the corner ,supposedly once owned by Hamish Imlach (who was very popular in Germany ) ; there were often German musicians in there playing Irish music ,and they all seemed to be extremely proficient , but never laughed or smiled !!
Also, regarding the Nazis and wartime music ; I went to the Uni in Bielefeld to see a film about young men listening to banned music , ie Glenn Miller etc ; I think it was called "Swing Heil" or something ---it was most enjoyable , anyway !


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 10:03 AM

"but never laughed or smiled "

That's probably natural. The concentration required to keep together and avoid mistakes probably keeps the face still.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: bubblyrat
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 10:17 AM

Yes, but I meant EVER , not just whilst playing !!


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,Margaret
Date: 06 Oct 11 - 05:24 PM

Add to the books list "Die historischen Volkslieder der Deutschen", by Rochus von Liliencron. 5 vols, mid-19th c. and thus clearly Nazifrei.

Also there are probably copies still available of the Volksliederbuch für Männerchor, 2 vols, publ. C.F.Peters Leipzig, 1906, and the corresponding ...für Gemischten Chor, 2 vols, same publ., 1915. They were re-printed by the Nazis, but as far as I can tell (mine are the reprints) the reprints are facsimiles that weren't interfered with.

Did someone already post this site and I missed it? If not: http://www.liederlexikon.de/lieder/index_html/

I lived and worked in Germany thru most of the '60s, and our local pub was taken over once a month by the local Gesangverein, to the great enjoyment of everyone who managed to squeeze in to listen. Their repertoire was all the old songs, including the most beloved chestnuts ("Anke van Tharaw", "Ach, wie ists möglich denn", "Freut Euch des Lebens", etc.) The first non-oompah songs I ever heard, I heard there.

Thirty years ago, working in Texas, I accidentally discovered that the Texas State Fair has a Deutsches Tag (many German ex-pats in Texas), so naturally that's when I went. Every year, they'd a group of Bundeswehr soldiers who'd come over from some training base in west-Texas. And they'd sing the old songs all day in chorus! It was *very* nice.

(I also had the amusing experience, one year, of realising that the two "good ol' boy" farmers sitting nearby who spoke eye-wateringly awful German were in fact native speakers who only needed a dozen bottles of beer each to regain their native fluency)


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 12:44 PM

200


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,ingrid sinclair
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 03:20 AM

Does anyone know the correct lyrics to a children's song my father used to sing. The same verse was repeated over and over again, each time the vowel sound changed.

The lines went something like:

Mit dem Fidel Bogen und der Bass Geiger
Dann kann Mann macht Musiek an
Mit dem Fidel Bogen und der Bass Geiger
Dann kann Mann allein.


Would love to hear if anyone else knows this.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 04:34 AM

I just came across an album titled Deitsch: Live in Rudolstadt 2009. Oh, this is wonderful music! I wish Spotify had more music from them.
Their Website is http://www.deitsch.de/. they have music you can listen to on MySpace.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 09:29 AM

@ Max Johnson.....What's that-"Die Moorsoldaten" a version of "The Peat-Bog Soldiers"? It's the ORIGINAL!!!


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Reinhard
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 12:34 PM

Glad you like Deitsch, Joe, they are wonderful. I already recommended them in 2006 in the thread Der Lindenschmied.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 06:02 PM

Hi, Reinhard-

Gee, I should have listened to you back in 2006 - I just found your comment last night. Any other German singers you'd recommend?

People, please take a listen to Deitsch, even if you don't speak German. They're just delightful.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Apr 12 - 05:36 PM

Somebody asked me about "Deitsch," and I figured it would be a good excuse to refresh this thread and encourage people to take a listen to them.

MySpace music samples.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: CET
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 06:59 PM

Thanks for the link, Joe. Deitsch are great.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 01:34 PM

I've tried two or three times, Joe, but nothing plays on the Deitsch pages. Maybe they're on YouTube...

If you are looking for an enjoyable group, I suggest the Swiss family, Oesch's die Dritten. Look for the Kuku Jodl.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 05:24 PM

Yes, they are on YouTube. Very nice.

General info - anybody interested in German or Deutsche folkmusic should know about "the ingeb site" - a wonderful resource.

http://ingeb.org/home.html


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Apr 12 - 06:17 PM

The Deitsch site is horrible to use.

It won't let you play anything without opening a new tab or window for the MySpace player, and the new window is equally likely to play nothing or to hide another popped-up window you got when clicking because nothing happened, and you get two players doing the song at once.

I'm not fighting with something like that. Somebody let us know when they get rid of their dependence on MySpace and just have links to generic audio files?

SoundCloud is a lot less hassle for casual users.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 01:40 AM

There's a great collection of German folksong lyrics at http://www.volksliederarchiv.de/.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Reinhard
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 03:34 AM

See also the Historisch-kritisches Liederlexikon by the Deutsches Volksliedarchiv.


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Subject: RE: German folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 May 17 - 09:12 PM

I found downloadable PDF copies of the Deutscher Liederhort, volumes 1 and 3, at Google Books. Can anybody help me find the second volume?
Thanks.
-Joe-
Belay that request, mateys. I found the second volume at archive.org. Both Google Books and archive.org have shortcomings with multiple-volume publications. They each had several copies of volumes 1 and 3, so I had to open several before I finally found volume 2.

I said up above that I was looking for a downloadable copy of Der Zupfgeigenhansl. I see I have a copy on my computer, but now I don't know where I got it from - and I don't see downloadable copies on either archive.com or Google Books. Go figure.


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