german marches

Subject: german marches
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 11:34 PM

Subject: RE: german marching songs
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 11:36 PM

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 11:45 PM

?

Subject: RE: german marches/drinking songs
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 11:50 PM

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:19 AM

&?

Subject: RE: german marches
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 04:35 AM

Vairy interesting

Subject: RE: german marches
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 04:44 AM

Music of a strongly rhythmic nature, normally in 2/4 or 4/4 time, originating in northern Europe in the area between the Netherlands and Poland.Historically used to facilitate the ambulatory movement of groups of military personnel.

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Lanfranc
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 05:36 AM

but stupid!

Subject: RE: german marches
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 05:44 AM

Come on, GUEST. what is this thread meant to be about? You're being very frustrating!

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 06:08 AM

German Marches are usually fairly wet. But in between there are warm days which give you a taste of the coming spring. Today, for instance, the magnolias start to open up over here.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: german marches
From: sledge
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:24 AM

It could be a geographical statement, after all we have the welsh marches and so on.

Sledge

Subject: RE: german marches
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:41 AM

Well, Sledge, that's a very interesting theory, but I have to say I find it unconvincing, given that GUEST renames the thread in his second and third postings, referring to "marching songs" and "drinking songs". But who knows, we'll just have to wait till Herr Guest gets thrown out of the bierkeller and gets back to his computer.

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 11:25 AM

There is a great difference between marches and marching songs in army practice, albeit the older songs could have incented the instrumental marches.
In former times marches were played by the fifes and drums for the infantry and all other services except the cavalry who were entitled to the royal brass: trumpets and kettle drums; later on all services were entitled to brass bands, even bloody seamen and aviators. German Marches are usually played in 4/4, 2/4, 2/2 or 6/8 (1 pace for every 3 eights).
Marching songs can be traditional folk songs or songs written specially for this purpose, especially with a strong propagandist bias (especially in the 3rd Reich). They are not played by the band, but sung by the troops when marching without a band, or when they've inhaled a good lot of ebriating fluids in the barracks or abroad.
A lot of folk songs in 3/4 were changed to a combination of 6/4 and 4/4. A good example you can find at my site http://www.uni-giessen.de/~gb1053/mudcat.htm#mond. This song was originally tradited in 3/4 and transformed for the howling of marching grunts (did it myself).
Standard reference work about history and collections of German Army Marches is:
Armeemärsche / Joachim Toeche-Mittler. - Stuttgart : Spemann, 19XX [3 vols., 1966-1975]
Standard collection in the "Prussian Army and the Federal Contingents" [official name of the so called "Imperial German Army"]: Heeresmärsche I-III. They are divided according to the different purposes: Parade, Present Arms, Defilee. Mounted troops also had marches for pace, trot and gallop.
German marches were influenced by the most valiant enemy in centuries XVII-XVIII, the Turks. Beethoven's 3 famous Turkish Marches are still played by Bundeswehr bands, and Mozart, Haydn and others are known to have written Turkish marches in their time.
Enough now; I'm just longing to strap my pistol again and start to march before my Federal Reserves platoon as in former times, but alas ... medical discharge.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:36 PM

Thanks, Wilfried. I'm enjoying your site!

Re: Beethoven's Turkish Marches
Listen to his Turkish March from the Ruins of Athens here. [http://www.midiworld.com/cmc/ludwig.html] I don't link dirctly to the midis at this site, so you'll have to scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Now have we talked about marshes yet? Are they the same in Germany as elsewhere? We don't have many in Kentucky.

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:49 AM

Thanks, Mary, for the encouragement and the link to a piece I didn't know of before. Since I have no sound card in my office I'm looking forward to listening this evening at home.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:35 AM

Your very welcome! I'm not sure of the original instrumentation for that piece. I played it on the piano when I was young and fell in love with it instantly.

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Rollo
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 05:01 PM

The German Marshes ("Marschen") are heavily settled because of the rich soil, but to the eye there isn`t much interesting, beside beautiful old farm houses (and quite much of them). Typical products around here are cabbage (Dittmarschen, northern Elbe area), flowers and grocery (Vierlande, southeast of Hamburg), apples and cherrys (Altes Land, southwest of Hamburg, a fantastic scenery in the springtime, because of the plantation trees blossoming), Milk (practically everywhere).

I recommend other types of wet lands to the tourist. There are beautiful bogs and fens, and the "Wattenmeer" of course (flat lands flooded by the tide).

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 06:12 PM

Sounds beautiful, but is there a Beethoven Marsh as beautiful as the one above?

...and I mistakenly said your instead of you're...I don't speak English as well as some of the other folks around here.;-)

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:12 AM

Well said, Mary!

Wilfried

Subject: RE: german marches
From: GUEST,ta2
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:44 AM

The best of german marching songs is die fannen hoech.....which was a corruption of a traditional folk song. It's got some dodgy lyrics though about brownshirts and swastikas but the tune is good.......as long as you don't understand what the german words mean

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:57 AM

ta2, I think we had a similar discussion back when I was discovering Christmas Carols using various German folk tunes. I only hear the tune and the emotion expressed in musical language. (We were referring to Brahms' tunes.) Sometimes it is a blessing "not to understand." (or at least to be able to ignore the words)

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:49 AM

to tatoo:
Correct words: Die Fahne hoch, die Reihen fest geschlossen ... (Raise the flag and close your rank).
This is not a corruption of a German folk song, but a new text to a soldiers song. A phenomenon you often can observe is that there are more poets than composers, and so a well known tune often is used to introduce a new text and make it popular.
This practice is well known in hymnals; in the Lutheran Song Book we find the tunes of an old German Epic about Hildebrand, several love songs by Gastoldi and Regnart, a soldiers report about the assault and taking of Pavia in 1525 and so on. With his best known xmas song Luther himself uses a tune sung by travelling singers used to report the latest news.
I detest the entire Nazi gang, but I must confess: The tune of "Die Fahne hoch", the song of Hitler's SA (Storm Troops) is a wonderful tune for marching; the words are of a certain mastership, too.
The tune is still in use at a certain German Fire Department with totally different words; when they sang it and some drunken listeners joined in singing the Nazi words it made a big upheaval in the press.
I wouldn't say the tune is the best marching song; there are songs fitting equally or better for the purpose.
What Rollo says about the wonderful Marshes is right, too. He only forgot to tell you that they are NOT to use for marches. Tried it once, near Bremen - forget it.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:53 AM

*BG* Thanks, Wilfried! I've been searching all over for the meaning of fannen!

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 12:53 PM

Wilfried, would you call Der Abenteurer a soldiers song or is there still another song I don't know yet which was sung to the tune of 'Die Fahne hoch...'?

By the way, not just the whole song is forbidden to sing/play/print or whatever in Germany, also the tune alone or (depending upon context, of course) even the tune with other lyrics. Though I have yet to hear of somebody being fined for singing 'Der Abenteurer'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Big John
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:54 PM

Amazing how a thread can develop from two blanks.

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Big John
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:06 PM

I have just checked my old LPs. I have one entitled Die 20 Grossten Marsche (I presume that means the 20 best marches). 1 Alte Kameraden, 2 Radetzky Marsch, 3 Preubens Gloria, 4 Fridericus Rex, 5 Badenweiler Marsch, 6 Parademarsch der 18er Husaren, 7 Marsch aus Petersburg, 8 Marsch des Yorkschen Korps, 9 Helenen Marsch 10 Grub and Kiel and 10 more. Play that lot on your uileann pipes!!!

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:20 PM

You folks have made viener schnitzel from nuttin'. Congratulations Wolfgang, a joke after my own heart!

Rick

Subject: RE: german marches
From: GUEST,Billy
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 01:28 AM

OK! I want this thread closed and I want it closed now! We had enough bloody Germans marching in 1914-18 and 1939-45 to last us for a bloody long time! Stop this now!

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 02:38 AM

Wolfgang,

thanks for the link to the Abenteurer. No, it's not a soldier song. I only presumed the tune of Die Fahne hoch to be the tune of a soldier song since all military formations of the greater German parties (SA, Rotfront, Reichsbanner, Stahlhelm) used soldier tunes for their own songs.

Billy, the thread will be closed when mudcatters have discussed all open questions of their interest. Are you perhaps the guest who kicked it loose?

Wilfried

Subject: RE: german marches
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 11:57 PM

Under the Double Eagle

Subject: RE: german marches
From: toadfrog
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 12:53 AM

The Radetzky Marsch is Austrian, not german. So is Under the Double Eagle. I think Johann Strauss wrote both of them.
The Horst Wessel Lied cited above as "Die Fahne Hoch" is Nazi stuff and by definition not a good song. My vote for the best march is the Hohenfriedberger Marsch which I have on an old LP, Archiv No. 2533 059. Does anyone know if that ever came out as a CD?

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 03:25 AM

toadfrog,

the Hohenfriedberger (composed by the late Frederick II, king in Prussia) is on several CDs containing collections of German or international marches. Im writing from my office, will look it up this evening and post again on Monday.
The Prussian Musikmaster General A. Piefke used it as trio of his March Prussia's Glory (too much brass for my taste). In a wider sense you can subsume the Austrians under Germany, too. Nevertheless they formed a separate nation since 1803 and left the German Federation in 1866. After WWI, when they lost the non German parts of their empire, there was a strong movement to reunite with the German Reich; they named their new republic: German-Austria, but were soon cured of their longings when annected by Nazi Germany. To name the Radetzky March a German march is not utterly wrong, but to call it Austrian is better because of the great differences between the Prussian (Lots of brass an boom boom) and the Austrain (and other South German) marches, which are lighter and sometimes remind of dances (Strauss wrote a wonderful march using quadrilles, a form of joyous dances).
Nr 8 on your list was composed by Beethoven, first dedicated to Napoleon I, later on he changed his mind and dedicated it to General Yorck von Wartenburg. Originally it was called Zapfenstreichmarsch (tattoo march) Nr 1.
In assuming that the Groessten means the best or best known you are right.

Wilfried The Horst-Wessel-Lied is not a bad song only because it is Nazi stuff; from the standpoint of literary criticism it can be compared with the best tradition of traditional soldier songs. I hate Nazidom for all what they have to Germany, friends, and my family, but I stand to my judgment.

Big John,

Nr 10 in your list should read Gruss an Kiel (greatings to Kiel). Whenever you have to write this letter, dissolve it into two ss. By the way, the a, o, and us with dots you can dissolve into ae, oe, ue. It's a lot easier for your transatlantic Keyboard.

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 03:31 AM

Big John,

part of my letter was destroyed when sent.
Nr 8 on your list was composed by Beethoven as Zapfenstreichmarsch (Tattoo March) Nr 1, a typical "Turkish March" of the time. First he dedicated it to Napoleon I, later on he changed his mind and dedicated it to General Yorck von Wartenburg, reformer of the Prussian Army and one of the heroes of the Napoleonic wars.
Correction in my former post: greatings should read greetings.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Lanfranc
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 03:58 AM

I'm awfully pleased that no-one's mentioned "Wir Fahren Gegen England" yet, but that's possibly because, with new Celtic words, it has since been adopted as an Irish March!

Seriously, though, who was "Horst Wessel"? I have a vague memory that there is/was a sailing ship of that name. Perhaps that was the "Horst Vessel"!

Gruss Gott!

Alan

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 06:51 AM

Funny, Lanfranc, but no, Horst Wessel was a member of Hitler's Sturm-Abteilung (SA, tormmtroops, the military wing of the Nazi party, sometimes better street gangs) who wrote the official SA song. This song was considered as an anthem then and always was played after the official National Anthem.
He was allegedly killed by communists; some said, since he was a pimp in Berlin that he was not KIA for political reasons but for some other related to this profession. But may it be as it was : only dead nazis are good nazis.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: german marches
From: GUEST,Hellfather
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 04:57 PM

Wilfried! Horst Wessel was killed by Ali Höhner, he was a communist, but the story is, that H.W. and A. H. loved the same girl. That was the case of murdering, not a political murder. But Joseph Goebbels was the Gáuleiter of Berlin and then the story became a political background. Before 1930 Berlin was a "red" city, the domain of Germany's socialists.

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 05:19 PM

Under the Double Eagle was written by J F Wagner. ;>)

Subject: RE: german marches
From: The Walrus
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 06:19 PM

Does anyone have the lyrics the song "Ansbach Dragoner" (sung to the Hohenfriedberger March)?
Two little anecdotes regarding German tunes:
It appears that in either 1945 or '46(-ish), the ceremony of the Trooping of the Colour was revived after the war. It appears that, in the haste to get the ceremony up and running, nobody had checked the music used. It is said that there were several cases of shock and appoplexy when they marched onto Horseguard's Parade to "Preussens Gloria".
A second "misplaced" use was a good few years ago when, at a Remberance Ceremony, the vicar had included the hymn "Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken" to the tune "Austria" - better known as the post Imperial, German National Anthem ("Deutchland Uber Alles/Deutcherleid), again, there was, shall we say, a "reaction" from some of the comgregation.

Regards

Walrus

Subject: RE: german marches
From: toadfrog
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 09:29 PM

I would swear that there was a song in the church hymnal when I was a kid to the "Austria" (Kaiserquartett tune.

My liner notes say: "The Hohenfriedberger March was certainly not composed by Frederick, but was already in the repertoire of the Ansbach-Bayreuth Dragoon Regiment during the 18th Century." They state that Old Fritz displayed little interest in martial music. There is a march by Frederick on the disk, in which most of the instruments are flutes and appropriate for a parade of ants.

Subject: RE: german marches
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 09:49 PM

When folks get tired of German marches... check out German/English maritime music! GOOD STUFF! See the John the Ferryman post!!! Larry

Subject: RE: german marches
From: toadfrog
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 09:50 PM

Some marching songs I'm curious about. Are these essentially soldiers' songs, where do they come from, and are they considered respectable?

Ein Heller und ein Batzen
Erika
Westerwald
Maruschka (Everyone seems to know Maruschka, but I'd hesitate a long time before singing it to a Pole!)
Maerkischer Heide(This sounds innocent enough, but when I had a lot of German friends, they assured me it is not. Assuming all the songs are considered o.k. except Maerkischer Heide, as seems to be the case, how is it different from the others?

Subject: RE: german marches
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 09:55 PM

This thread is chugging along very well, especially since we still dont know what the original poster was asking about

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 05:15 AM

Toadfrog,

the Hohenfriedberger is on a collection with 3 CDs labeld: Das Goldene Mrsch-Musik-Festival, produced 1995 by Widder-Musik, Wentorf bei Hamburg. It is Nr 7 of CD 33 099 3(A), here performed by the Federal Army Band 9 (The Airborne Division).
I'm sure you'll find it in other collections, but this is the one I own. Naturally there are more productions on black discs.

Walrus,

here the words of the Hohenfriedberger:

Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner
Friedrich der Große (Hohenfriedberger Marsch)

Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner, auf, Ansbach-Bayreuth!
Schnall um deinen Säbel und rüste dich zum Streit:
Prinz Karl ist erschienen auf Friedbergs Höh'n,
Sich das preußische Heer mal anzusehn.
/: Drum Kinder, seid lustig und allemal bereit:
Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner, auf, Ansbach-Bayreuth! :/

Hab'n sie keine Angst, Herr Oberst von Schwerin!
Ein preußischer Dragoner tut niemals flieh'n!
Und stünden sie noch so dicht auf Friedbergs Höh',
Wir reiten sie zusammen wie Frühlingsschnee.
/: Ob Säbel, Kanon, ob Kleingewehr uns dräut:
Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner, auf Ansbach-Bayreuth! :/

Halt, Ansbach-Dragoner, halt, Ansbach-Bayreuth!
Wisch ab deinen Säbel und laß ab vom Streit!
Denn ringsumher auf Friedbergs Höh'n
Ist weit und breit kein Feind mehr zu sehn.
/: Und ruft unser König, zur Stelle sind wir heut:
Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner, auf, Ansbach -Bayreuth! :/

(Lieder der Jugend. - Köln, 1940. - pg 54 sq)

Wilfried

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 05:35 AM

Toadfrog,

Ein Heller und ein Batzen: also known and sung by others than soldiers, especially students in the 19th century; the tune used nowadays adapted to marching by usage of the troops.
Erika: A product of WW II, composed by Harm Niels, a then famous composer of popular songs. Unfortunately I lost the song book with this song when I stopped practizing the accordion.
Westerwald: not traditional, also a marching song written and composed in WW II or shortly before.
Maruschka: There is a short student ditty containing this name, but this can't be it. I don't know another song; since you say it shouldn't be sung to a Pole: could it be the song beginning in einem Polenstädtchen (in a little Polish town ther lived a girl)?
Maerkische Heide: It not only does sound innocent enough, it is. It is the unofficial anthem of Brandenburg, heart of former Prussia. I found the song with the writer's name, G. Büchsenschütz, but no year. Since it is copyrighted by a Berlin musical publisher I assume that it was written in the 20th century. You won't find any bad ideas in it other than love to the beauties of your home country. [Note: The R at the end of Maerkischer must be omitted]

Wilfried

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Rollo
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 09:21 AM

Alan, there was indeed a vessel called "Horst Wessel" after the SA man.

"Horst Wessel" was build 1936 at Blohm & Voss in Hamburg as a school ship. There were a number of sister ships, including the present Bundeswehr sailing schoolship "Gorch Fock II". "Horst Wessel" was claimed by the USA after WW2 and now serves the Coast Guard for cadet training, renamed "Eagle".

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 09:56 AM

Toadfrog, having strained and scrutinized my memory for hours I remember that the song in einem Polenstädtchen indeed contains a verse vergiß Maruschka nicht, das Polenkind (never forget Maruschka, the Polish girl).
It is a pert abominable song about a girl seduced and betrayed by a "German grenadier". The girl finally committed suicide.
I never sang it because of the respect the women deserve; I heard it sometimes sung by enlisted men, but only when drunk. After a while I stopped this by asking: What would you have done if it had happened to your sister?
Especially the last verses are most detestable because of the choice of words, really chauvinistic and racistic.
These are the causes why I shouldn't sing it not only to a Polish audience, but never. It doesn't fit an officer and gentleman.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 04:08 AM

May I add that you can see the lyrics and hear the tunes to nearly all of the marches discussed so far here.

I disagree and agree with Wilfried regarding Maruschka. If you follow the link and read the (more or less) original lyrics you'll find that they are completely harmless. Just a little love song. Therefore I disagree. I have to agree however for the song too often is sung with much less harmless lyrics. I guess Wilfried had these lyrics in mind.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Lanfranc
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 01:20 PM

Thanks, Rollo, for the info on the vessel Horst Wessel/Eagle.

Which reminds me of the old joke ...

Q: What is the question to which the answer is "9W"

A: Do you spell your name with a V, Herr Witgenstein?

Sorry - I'll leave now!

De dum, de dum de dah dah dah.

(An English marching song with Nazi connections, usually whistled!)

Alan

Subject: RE: german marches
From: toadfrog
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 10:35 PM

Wilfried: All the songs I mentioned, except, as you say Maruschka, have perfectly innocent-sounding lyrics. But songs do not only have lyrics and tunes, they have connotations.

I recall once singing Maerkischer Heide - in the basement of the library at U.C. Berkeley, on an evening in or about 1962, believing myself to be alone.

A bald-headed fellow popped out and asked, excitedly, "Sind Sie in der Wehrmacht gewesen?!" (Which was not the case.) And later, as a student in Marburg, I sang it to some (fairly conservative) friends, and was told it was not an acceptable song. So I was curious about that.

Subject: RE: german marches
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 05:40 AM

toadfrog,

I have looked for such a connotation without success. The song was written in 1923, so that cannot be the reason.

A wild guess: This song is linked to Prussia in some German minds and everything Prussian had a bad name after 1945. This song might have been one of the several dozen songs which have been forbidden to sing, play or print by the Allied Forces in 1945.

I would not be surprised to learn that it was a forbidden song in the GDR as well. Today it is the song of the German Land Brandenburg, as close to being the official hymn as it can come without an explicit law.

As an aside, the composer, G. Büchsenschütz, who wrote the song as a young man, got fairly rich shortly before his death when he was well above ninety, for his song which had never brought him money before now sold over a million times on CD.

Wolfgang