BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario

Subject: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:36 PM

Big story from Ontario today on the arrest of a ring of 17 Islamic terrorists who were planning major bomb attacks there.

BBC story

MSNBC story

Bloomberg story

article with list of terrorist suspects


Canadian prime minister makes statement

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:42 PM

How odd. I just heard this story on my local radio station, an ABC affiliate. There was absolutely no mention of race, religion or country of origin of the suspects. You don't suppose the regular network news in the US is a bit 'doctored' do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:56 PM

Three tonnes of ammonium nitrate could have done serious damage in downtown Toronto considering that one ton was used against the Murragh building in Oklahoma.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:58 PM

There isn't any mention of race or religion in the articles GUEST linked to either. I'd guess the 'Islamic' bit was something he read into it, although they were clearly inspired by other terrorists, likely Islamic extremists.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 01:12 PM

There isn't any mention of race or religion in the articles GUEST linked to either. I'd guess the 'Islamic' bit was something he read into it, although they were clearly inspired by other terrorists, likely Islamic Extremists.

Geri,

My Mudcat name is not GUEST, it is C. Ham. Although I initially posted here as a guest, I have been posting as a Mudcat member, in both music and BS threads, for about two months.

I have referred to them as "Islamic terrorists" because that is how they have been describded on both of the Canadian TV news networks (CBC Newsworld and CTV Newsnet) by representatives of the RCMP and Ontario police.

Furthermore, several of the articles mention that the Ontario terrorists were "inspired by al-Qaeda." And if you check the link with the list of the terrorists, they all have Islamic names.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 01:31 PM

Jeri, please read as is presented. And where did you see "Islamic Extremists" indicated?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 01:36 PM

C Ham, my apology for calling you 'GUEST'. Sometimes it's hard for me to keep up, but I'll make sure I pay better attention in future.

MSNBC has reported that most of the suspects are Canadian citizens. I'm sure more information will come out as this progresses, but whatever their religion, I'm very glad they were caught before they killed anyone. Apparently the investigation, but Canadian and US authorities, has be going since last fall.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 01:46 PM

What do you consider to be particularly "Islamic" about the name - "Saad Khalid", C-Ham?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 01:49 PM

TARGET: CANADA

1998 "You cannot stop us." A World Islamic Front letter is sent to police advising that a biological and chemical weapons attack would be launched in the Montreal subway system. A group of Algerians is arrested and deported.

1999 "In the summer of 1999, Samir Ait Mohamed and Ahmed Ressam discussed placing explosives in the Outremont suburb of Montreal because it was a predominantly Jewish neighborhood," the FBI says.

[e-mail]

2001 "Special file for our brother Abu Bakr al-Albani on the nature of his mission. First, the mission. Gather information on ... the possibility of obtaining explosive devices inside Canada." -- August 2001 e-mail found on al-Qaeda computer in Kabul.

2001 "In the lead-up and immediate aftermath to 9/11... there was a conspiracy of eight individuals who had designs to execute an act of serious violence in the Toronto area," Jack Hooper, CSIS Deputy Director of Operations, states.

2002 "As you kill, you will be killed." -- Osama bin Laden in an audiotaped speech that threatened Canada.

2004 "Human Targets: We must target and kill the Jews and the Christians.... The grades of importance are as follows: Americans, British, Spaniards, Australians, Canadians, Italians," instructs Al Battar, an al-Qaeda training manual.

2005 "And now you will get news of what hurts you." A jihadists video production posted on the Internet repeats bin Laden's 2002 threat to Canada.

2006 "We have a bifurcated threat at this point -- the threat that comes to Canada from the outside as well as a homegrown threat, and the homegrown variants look to Canada to execute their targeting," Mr. Hooper warns.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 01:55 PM

"The investigation, which McDonell said involved more than 400 persons, also included Canada's intelligence agency, the Canada Security and Intelligence Agency.

Luc Portelance, assistant director of operations for CSIS, said the arrested men "are Canadian residents from a variety of backgrounds. For various reasons, they appear to become adherents of virulent ideology inspired by al-Qaeda." But McDonell later suggested investigators had found no direct connection with al-Qaeda."

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:03 PM

What do you consider to be particularly "Islamic" about the name - "Saad Khalid", C-Ham?

Well, CarolC, perhaps you're right, and the name is not particularly Islamic. Both "Saad" and "Khalid" are Arabic names and I'm well aware that not all Arabs are Islamic. Then again, I have a friend whose name is "Khalid," who is a Moslem, but is not of Arabic origin. He was born in Pakistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:05 PM

Yes. Maybe they are born-again Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:19 PM

C. Ham,

Don't waste your time arguing with Carol C. If you listen to her, all the terrorism in the world is the fault of Israel and America.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:31 PM

From this Washington Post article

"Luc Portelance, assistant director of operations for CSIS, said the arrested men "are Canadian residents from a variety of backgrounds. For various reasons, they appear to become adherents of virulent ideology inspired by al-Qaeda." But McDonell later suggested investigators had found no direct connection with al-Qaeda."

So GUEST (and I checked that), al Qaeda is an Islamic extremist group. I discovered the supposed link because I read the articles C. Ham linked to.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:36 PM

Well, GUEST of 1:55 already posted that quote, so mine was redundant. Never mind...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:39 PM

Guest:

Trying to reduce a discussion like this one to a game of personalities and blame on people for speaking their minds is not only stupid, it's oppressive. Especially when done from the nebulous miasma of anonymity.

I am sure you can do better than that.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:24 PM

"...officials stressed there's no direct link between those charged to the terrorist network." Thats from an article listed in the first post.

Any attempt to categorize the people arrested according to ethnic or religious group is premature. We do know that they were either Canadian citizens or Residents. If they are guilty of planning a terrorist attack, they were planning to strike their own country. Thats a very serious allegation.

I'm glad they interrupted their plans but, as their lawyer indicated, the net may have been cast too widely. We will see.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:35 PM

Amos, I am not sure whty Guest you are referring nor does it really matter. With your nose stuck in the 'book of nonessential' words, I doubt if you take enough time to properly read these posts.
I shall never rise to your lofty position of whatever it is you ascribe to. And I thank my God for that. And, in this case, it is you that is being oppressive.

Jeri, I have never, ever heard al Qaeda described as "an Islamic Extremist group". Even they have the common sense to call themselves a terriost group. I still do not find where you saw 'your' phrase. You are right in there with CarolC et. al. when it comes to minimizing the actions of these people, and as another Guest said, it is all the fault of Israel and the United States.

I agree, they probably are born again Christians who meddle in terriosm when not causing Global warming.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:55 PM

Guest, I see the problem now: you don't believe terrorists are extremists.

Everybody, have a nice discussion. I don't really want to argue about vocabulary. Frankly, it's a bit weird to read a news story and find people automatically start gravitating to their usual sides and arguing from predicable points of view about the usual subject, which is often not the thread's subject, with a troll or two thrown in just to nit-pick. It's how Mudcatters do things though.

Amos, I agree -- it's oppressive. It's always oppressive, and it's why I tend to talk about politics and world events somewhere besides Mudcat. I just forgot this time. Chalk one up to the "What the hell was I thinkin'" department.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 03:58 PM

I'm not suggesting that they are not Muslims. I just find statements like the one about the "Islamic names" to be problematic. If one is only going by the names, that could very well be an erroneous assumption. There have been terrorist attacks in the Middle East that have been committed by Christians, for instance. And I have been able to find at least one person with the name Khalid who is an Iraqi Christian...

- here -

However, if the suspects themselves have said that they are Muslims, we are probably more safe in assuming that they are in fact Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 04:02 PM

No nation is immune to acts of terroism and violence these days. It's a frightening world.

BTW ... my daughter's name is Zaid, we're not Arabic and we're not Muslims. Never assume a person's nationality, or religion by their name.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 04:09 PM

Nice typing, eh?

And, Dianavan, while I am one not to accuse without sufficient evidence, will you somewhat agree that those detained may not be Japanese or from the Chinese Mainland. Also, if they are simply "residents" of Canada, then they will not be accused of "striking their own Country". The ones that are 'citizens can be. A moot point to some, but a true one. Probably means that, if found guilty, one group will be hung prior to the other. That would be enough differentiating as far as I am concerned.

I am sure CarolC and Jeri welcome you to their club after you repeating that the net may have been cast too widely as their Attorney stated.

Denial is the first phase of the defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 04:13 PM

Yes Jeri, exactly what I thought - what the hell is she thinking.

And now you are shifting the responsibility to others for this pathetic thread when you were part of the original "gravitating to one side".

I agree, this is rather a waste, see ya.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 04:18 PM

C. Ham says, "I have referred to them as "Islamic terrorists" because that is how they have been describded on both of the Canadian TV news networks (CBC Newsworld and CTV Newsnet) by representatives of the RCMP and Ontario police."

Can you please link to these sources so that I don't have to look at all 474 related articles. I can't seem to find a description of the men arrested as "Islamic Terrorists".

I have no choice but to believe this is your particular spin on the story or if you are just passing along assumptions made by uninformed journalists.

At this point, all anyone knows is that they were men (some underaged) who were planning a terrorist attack. For all I know, they were planning on robbing a bank and blowing the safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: heric
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 04:58 PM

Just because a guy loks like an Arab and his name is Yasim Abdi Mohamed and his wife wears a hajib and he's busted for bomb-making doesn't give you the right to assume the guy is an Islamic terrorist. He could well have been an Hispanic descendent of members of a Dutch chapter of the Huguenots who have been too long repressed. Or something. I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 05:01 PM

"Inspired by Al-Qaeda" together with the list of names makes one interpretation much more likely than any other. Though I still know that if I hear for instance the beat of hooves in Germany behind me it still could be zebras, couldn't it. None of you has any serious doubts, you just pretend.

Whether the terrorist suspects are actually would-be terrorists that's the real question and not the silly discussion whether most (or all) of those arrested are Islamists or not. They are (at least most of them) and you all know it. But it has happened in more than one coutry in the last couple of years that terrorist suspects have been shot or arrested that later turned out not to be would-be terrorists.

That's where it is sensible to keep an open mind and not on the other artificial point of debate.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 06:23 PM

Interesting how some people think they can summarize someone else's entire position on a particular subject based on only one question. However I notice it is a common enough tactic (I say 'tactic, because 'assumption' seems like too charitible a term for what they are doing) coming from some people around here, who prefer to use ad hominem smears rather than rational discourse.

Or perhaps someone could show me where I actually articulated my own position on the subject of whether or not the suspects are Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 06:51 PM

They could just as easily be "inspired" bt Timothy McVeighn or the Aryan Nations.

Would that make them "American Terrorists" or "Christian Terrorists"??

Jaysus, people, this paranoid hysteria about an "Islamic Terrorist"[sic] around every corner and under every bed- displacing the proverbial Commie- is REALLY getting boring.

GET A LIFE & get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 07:21 PM

I feel a little safer now, knowing that the Canuckians are doing something to defeat terrorisim.

Hope they keep up the good work. I might even buy a few sixpacks of Moose head as a tribute

F

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 07:34 PM

Hey, the mounties always get their man, dontcha know?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 07:40 PM

I do not give a rat's ass what religion or 'ethnicity' they are. Put the fu#kers in jail for twenty years and let them think about it.

Fifteen years back the CSIS was about as adept as the CIA. Fortunately they have improved. The Mounties have always been pretty good, barring the odd case of corruption here and there.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 08:02 PM

"Just because a guy loks like an Arab and his name is Yasim Abdi Mohamed and his wife wears a hajib and he's busted for bomb-making doesn't give you the right to assume the guy is an Islamic terrorist."

Very good, heric.

I didn't see the list of names of those who were arrested when I posted previously. Based on what heric said, we can deduct that those arrested had names indicating that they are from a middle-eastern culture. We cannot assume that they are all Muslim or that they are terrorists.

Sounds like they were up to some criminal activity but whether or not they were all Islamic Terrorists is not yet known.

You should know better than that, heric.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 08:30 PM

A Rose by any other name is still a Rose

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 10:10 PM

Then there are the white kids who are lost from the mainstream of the current 'high school' culture, looking for some sort of spirituality and meaning in a world gone mad ... who somehow find Islam as their saving grace ... adopt an Islamic name and it goes from there.

Steve Earl's song Jonny Walker comes to mind here ....

I'm just an American boy raised on MTV
And I've seen all those kids in the soda pop ads
But none of 'em looked like me
So I started lookin' around for a light out of the dim
And the first thing I heard that made sense was the word
Of Mohammed, peace be upon him

A shadu la ilaha illa Allah
There is no God but God

If my daddy could see me now – chains around my feet
He don't understand that sometimes a man
Has got to fight for what he believes
And I believe God is great, all praise due to him
And if I should die, I'll rise up to the sky
Just like Jesus, peace be upon him


We came to fight the Jihad and our hearts were pure and strong
As death filled the air, we all offered up prayers
And prepared for our martyrdom
But Allah had some other plan, some secret not revealed
Now they're draggin' me back with my head in a sack
To the land of the infidel

A shadu la ilaha illa Allah

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 11:24 PM

Bullfrog Beer !

That was absolutely my favorite off-the-wall name for any beer.

Their motto:"If it's good for your mother, it's good for you. GOOD Bullfrog Beer!!"

...Whoops---wrong thread. (Sorry!!)

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 11:42 PM

There is nothing wrong with Islam. The problem is extremists (of any religion).

LOL, Art.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 06:46 AM

from the first clicky, in the first post to this thread...
"Most of the 12 adults, whose ages range from 19 to 43, have Arabic names but police say no one community should be singled out.

Muslim leaders in Toronto have condemned the planned attack and said extremist messages had been preached in some area mosques in recent years.

The suspects appear to have "chosen a violent ideology inspired by al-Qaeda", said Luc Portelance, assistant director of operations for the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS), Canada's spy agency.

Aly Hindy, an imam at a Toronto mosque, said he knew most of the accused and believed one or two were involved in crime but not terrorism. "

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 08:40 AM

From the CBC website today, confirming that most of the 17 suspects are Canadian citizens and that their target is Canada.

The charges allege that the men knowingly participated in a terrorist group and either received or provided terrorist training in Toronto, nearby Mississauga, Fort Erie and Ramara Township, located on the shores of Lake Simcoe in central Ontario's cottage county

Ramara Township?!? Say it isn't so! I've been up there a few times over the last few weeks -- so quiet, peaceful and lovely, nestled between Lake Couchiching and Lake Simcoe, just north of LH's roost in Orillia. My son just started training towards his chef's papers there, at Casino Rama's classy restaurants on the Rama First Nation's Reserve. He tells me that some of Canada's basic laws and standards don't seem to apply on the reserve ie   the international restaurants there (such as the one run by Asians exclusively for Asians) are exempt from Canada's Health Act. So, he finds some the practices and procedures in that kitchen shocking to say the least -- for example, they kill the fresh eels they need to make certain delicacies onsite, simply by grabbing the tails and smashing their heads on the kitchen floor.    8-(

ANd now I'm wondering if this apparent immunity to Canadian law makes reserves a target for would-be terrorists. If that's the case, in today's political climate you're not likely to hear about it on the news!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 08:55 AM

PS Just to clarify, I'm only speculating above. The article does not mention the Reserve specifically, only the township where it's located. These alleged "terrorists" could have been plotting and planning off-reserve after all - lurking in the forest, surrounded by trilliums, besieged by blackflies and mosquitoes, with their fishing boats close by ready to make a getaway?!?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 09:43 AM

C. Ham says, "I have referred to them as "Islamic terrorists" because that is how they have been describded on both of the Canadian TV news networks (CBC Newsworld and CTV Newsnet) by representatives of the RCMP and Ontario police."

Can you please link to these sources so that I don't have to look at all 474 related articles. I can't seem to find a description of the men arrested as "Islamic Terrorists".

Gee Dianavan, I'm really sorry that I don't have links for the TELEVISION reports I saw of RCMP and Onatrio police press conference.

However, how about this link in which Canadian Muslim Congress spokesman Tarek Fatah says the Islamic terrorists in Ontario "is a small group of criminals and they don't reflect the vast Muslim community in Toronto."

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 09:59 AM

Here's an article from the Toronto Star on the terrorists.

The picture of "women believed to be family members of some of the men arrested" would sure suugest to me that they are Moslems.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:39 AM

Is 6000 pounds of ammonium nitrate and a cellphone detonator pretty much a standard thing for Candian citizens?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:09 PM

Pretty much not, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:31 PM

"Is 6000 pounds of ammonium nitrate and a cellphone detonator pretty much a standard thing for Candian citizens?"

Being a Canadian I don't think it's a standard 'thing' for my fellow citizens. But it certainly is peanuts compared the the amount of 'things' that have killed 20+ K Iraqi civilians in the last 3 years.

Let's face it ... the world is in a very violent state of being ... it doesn't matter what religion, political ideology ... humans are killing humans all over the world.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:45 PM

I'm not all that great with numbers, but based on the figures I've found, the population of the United States is more than ten times larger than that of Iraq. So if you multiply 30,000 (Population of Iraq... I rounded up a bit) by 10, you get 300,000. The number of Iraqi civilians killed by the US led invasion and occupation, as a percentage of the total population would be equivalent to 300,000 US civilians killed. Divide that by 3,000 (approximate number of US civilians killed on 9/11), and you get 100.

That means that the number of civilians killed by the US led invasion and occupation of Iraq is the equivalent of roughly 100, 9/11s by percentage of population.

If terrorists committed ONE HUNDRED attacks on the US that each produced the same number of deaths as on 9/11, that would equal the approximate number of Iraqi civilians killed by the US led invasion and occupation.

A sobering thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:48 PM

Thanks Carol ... it is a sobering fact.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:52 PM

It is indeed a sobering thought but you are severely muddying the waters by not making it clear that a large number of Iraqis are being killed by their fellow Iraqis in what is to us very confusing and multi-sided fratricidal mayhem. Maybe you are confused as well hence attribute it generally to "US led invasion and occupation".

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:54 PM

No, that's wrong. I need to do that over.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:57 PM

robomatic, the (approximately) 20,000 figure is just based on civilians directly killed by US forces, not insurgents. But I still got my numbers wrong.

I'll do it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 03:03 PM

It would be the equivalent of around 66.66666(etc) 9/11s by percentage.

Iraq has approximately 30 million people, not 30,000. The US has almost 300 million. Approximate numbers of Iraqi civilians killed by US and "coalition" forces in the invasion and occupation probably more than 20,000 (conservative figure).

20,000 x 10 = 200,000... divided by 3,000 = 66.66666(etc.)

It's still a sobering thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 03:20 PM

So, according to these calculations 9/11 X (a chilling) 66.66 ad infinitum would balance things out.

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.....

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 03:26 PM

C. Ham - I haven't read anywhere that Tarek Fatah (or anyone else) referred to these criminals as Islamic Terrorists. In fact, the assistant director of CSIS (in the same article) say, "It is important to know that this operation in no way reflects negatively on any specific community, or ethno-cultural group in Canada,"

The other article profiles the individuals and does indicate that some of them are Islamic but does not factually state that they are all Islamic. They were, apparently, engaged in terrorist activities. The assumption is, of course, that they are Islamic terrorists but Canada is very careful about blaming a specific cultural group for the criminal activity of a few.

Thats the difference between the Canadian perspective and the red-necked, American perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: heric
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 04:09 PM

D'van, CarolC, Jeri: It must be driving you all to distraction that no one has said anything that reflects negatively on any specific community, or ethno-cultural group in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 04:46 PM

Here we have a thread about the arrest of Islamic terrorists in Ontario and CarolC is trying to change the subject to the American war in Iraq.

Meanwhile Dianavan is trying to spin us that there is no absolute proof that every single one of the Islamic terrorists is a Moslem.

So mudcattingly predictable those two.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 04:48 PM

yes, thankfully.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 04:52 PM

The linked articles that I read, excluding a couple of videos that take an extremely long time to load on my connection, were all quite careful to identify those arrested as "Canadian Citizens or Residents" and to note only that the organization with which they are accused of being associated was apparently "Al-Qaeda inspired." Some, but not all, noted that they were predominately persons with "Arabic sounding names." At least one item did state that "the organization" had made public claims of being "Al-Qaeda inspired," but did not provide a citation to verify that offhand(?) statement.

The step to referring to those arrested as "Islamic Terrorists" was perhaps too casually taken, but hardly merits, at this time, any accusation of "racism" or even of "nationalism."

While the bitter arguments about "who's da worst and baddest" seem to be unavoidable here, they seem to have little purpose other than the stoking and stroking of egos, most of which are well known to us all.

What is significant is that the explosive materials found do indicate nefarious purpose. The absence of other expected materials does, perhaps, indicate that the alleged "plan" was at an early stage.

For anyone who might want to assess exactly what was found, it should be pointed out that the "3 tonnes" of fertilizer was uniformly reported as metric tonnes which is slightly different than 3 times what was used in the Oklahoma bombing. Given the innacuracy of such "new estimates," it probably doesn't make much difference, but a "metric ton" is a bit over 2,200 lb, while a US ton, in common usage is 2,000 lb. (And according to the SI agreement, it is metric ton and NOT metric tonne, even if you're French, but newspersons wouldn't know that.)

In a single explosion, that amount of ammonium nitrate would produce a blast possibly as large as in the Oklahoma bombing, but probably not a great deal larger. In Oklahoma, a substantial diesel fuel boost was used, and would be necessary for an effective application of this large an amount of fertilizer as an explosive in a single attack.

This may be taken as an indication that the suspects had not completed their preparations and additional materials were intended to be procured later, that additional materials they would have been expected to have are still "at large" elsewhere, or that they're a pretty amateur bunch of nuts. Take your pick, if you wish; but it won't matter much which you choose until further information on the arrests and results of the ongoing investigation and charges is available.

About the only thing that is certain is that it's unlikely anyone would have legitimate reason to possess that amount of fertilizer unless they were planning a "community garden" encompassing at least a few thousand acres of vacant urban lots with very bad soil.

Beyond the quibble (and it is a small one) about the comparisons between what this band planned and what was done in Oklahoma, I believe I'll wait for additional information before forming opinions.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 04:58 PM

Dianavan,

Maybe you should check with the Muslim Canadian Congress. They seem to think that the Ontario terrorists are Muslim.

From the front page of the Muslim Canadian Congress website:

In a statement released today, the MCC said the Muslim Canadians are in a state of shock to learn that young members of their community would contemplate carrying our terror attacks on fellow citizens.

"Thank God these men were stopped before they could carry out their alleged plot," said Niaz Salimi, President of the MCC.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 05:09 PM

D'van, CarolC, Jeri: It must be driving you all to distraction that no one has said anything that reflects negatively on any specific community, or ethno-cultural group in Canada.

Why would it do that, heric? And why do you assume that dianavan, Jeri, and I all hold the same opinions on this subject, and speak as one? And where have I indicated that I thought anyone was saying anything that reflects negatively on any specific community, or ethno-cultural group in Canada?

Come on... you're a lawyer. If I've done it, I'm sure you can produce the evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 05:56 PM

Heric, why do you think I'd be driven 'to distraction' because 'no one has said anything that reflects negatively on any specific community, or ethno-cultural group in Canada'? What do you think I'm about and why?

I like looking for truth. I think these guys would call themselves Moslems. I think anybody who would blow people up is a terrorist, and I think all terrorists are extremists. I believe Al Qaeda and their ilk are to Islam as the Ku Klux Clan is to Christianity. It's my impression that people are looking at a news story and trying so hard to find some nit-picky thing to fight about that they don't try to see any other possible reasons to talk about this issue.

Personally, I don't see that much to argue about here. It's a friggin' news story and facts are going to keep emerging.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 06:25 PM

Here's an interesting article...

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1845&ncid=1845&e=1&u=/cpress/20060604/ca_pr_on_na/terror_arrests_backlash

I had been thinking the way the whole thing was staged looked a lot like Harper trying to look like Bush. But then I though, nahhhh... Canadians would see right through that.

I didn't know about the important Supreme Court decision that's coming up in about a week.

Canadians, I suggest you get ready for an "interesting" next few years (or however long Harper is in office... which could be a very long time, if your right-wing tries the same kind of election tactics that our right-wing guys have been using the last couple of elections. I think Mr. Harper has been taking lessons from someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: heric
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 07:17 PM

I just think an Arab Muslim with a bomb and Canadian citizenship is an Arab Muslim with a bomb and Canadian citizenship, that's all. Nothing to fear. Nothing to dance around.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 09:03 PM

That's nice, heic. Still don't know what your point is, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 09:05 PM

...or what it's got to do with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: heric
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:03 PM

Okay already Carol I'll bite!

Why (why EXACTLY) did you ask the question: "What do you consider to be particularly 'Islamic' about the name - 'Saad Khalid', C-Ham?"

C-Ham never said that name - YOU picked it out of a list for, I assume, a specific and logical purpose and, after picking that name, you then needed to ask a question that was ONLY a question.


You know what else? I'll bet most of those marines in Haditha were WASP yankees just as I am. I'll bet you wouldn't mind me making that assumption and carrying on a conversation on that basis. Things are what they are. It may suck for Arab Muslims that some Arab Muslims kill innocent defenseless children, just as it sucks for me that some WASP yankees kill innocent defenseless children. It's fine to be alert for hidden bias in one's own thinking, but still, things are what they are!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:12 PM

While you're answering questions, could you answer mine? I'd like to understand what I said that got me included in the group.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: heric
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:16 PM

aaarghh.

Yours is quite tangential. You said: "I'd guess the 'Islamic' bit was something he read into it. . . "

I can grant you a waiver.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Willie-O
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:20 PM

I read the news today oh boy...

Some interesting points that have emerged are that some of the accused have been under surveillance since 2004, and it seems the whole plot such as it was was rather thoroughly compromised.

Two of those charged have been resident in the Kingston Pen since last fall, when they each received a two-year sentence for gun-smuggling. So it's curious that they'd be included as conspirators in an ongoing plot.

It was also suggested that police agents were involved in purchasing the 3 tons of ammonium nitrate for the group. Pretty interesting tactic--suggesting, rightly or not, that police and CSIS felt they had the situation under control.

The only charges I've seen are "membership in a terrorist group" and "engaging in terrorist training". Not "conspiracy to commit" type charges, at least not yet.

Stephen Harper's comments have been typical of him. He likes to echo things GW Bush has said in the past, in this case "they hate our freedoms". Harper is apparently unaware that Bush's credibility, inasmuch as he ever had any, is way in the past too.

Somehow I'm not getting the impression that these alleged terrorists were masters of terror and guerilla fighting--more like a farm team of a farm team.

Having said that, though, I think that all in all I'm happy with how the police operation went, from the information provided thus far. It's the first time in this country that a "terrorist roundup" has not almost immediately turned into a bunch of smoke and mirrors, resulting in a few scared students with expired visas being deported amid embarrassing questions about what happened to the "bust of the century" that was promised.

Nobody got hurt, and there will be court cases to show us what it is really about. It's reasonable to expect our tolerant society will continue to be so--we're not freaking out with colour-coding our calendars and duct-taping our windows.

And I don't really believe the upcoming Supreme Court decision on security certificates is connected...these guys are facing charges, no "security certificates" are needed to keep them locked up.

It won't influence the Supreme Court anyway, they're a stubborn bunch.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:22 PM

I'm getting a little concerned about you, heric. You don't seem quite yourself here in this thread. Not quite as observant or quick on the uptake as you usually seem to be.

I'll explain it s l o w l y for you.

First of all, C Ham said this...

And if you check the link with the list of the terrorists, they all have Islamic names.

So I did what s/he suggested and I checked the link with the list of names.

I saw a few that as far as I could tell were not necessarily "Islamic".


Now, I refer you to my 03 Jun 06 - 03:58 PM post, in which I said this...

I'm not suggesting that they are not Muslims. I just find statements like the one about the "Islamic names" to be problematic. If one is only going by the names, that could very well be an erroneous assumption. There have been terrorist attacks in the Middle East that have been committed by Christians, for instance. And I have been able to find at least one person with the name Khalid who is an Iraqi Christian...

- here -

However, if the suspects themselves have said that they are Muslims, we are probably more safe in assuming that they are in fact Muslims.

I have NEVER said that I didn't think they were Muslims. I only made a point, a quite valid one, in my opinion, that names are not good indicators of a person's religion. I do not at this time, have an opinion about whether or not they are Muslims, nor do I feel any need to form an opinion about that matter at this time. I have not articulated any opinion about it, and I have no intention of doing so at this point in time.

Now, I notice that there are a few men on this thread who were arguing the point that you have attributed to me, and that I was NOT arguing.

I also notice that you have lumped me in together with two women, one of whom I think is trying to make the point you are attributing to us, and one who doesn't appear to be making that point. So you have tried to impose your idea of what we are thinking and trying to say onto us, when, in fact, you are quite wrong about it in my case, and you appear to be wrong about it in Jeri's case as well, and you appear to believe that we have some kind of "hive" mentality in which we share a brain or something, rather than holding our own individual thoughts.

And then you took a snipe at us for something that at least two of us have NOT said, but that others in the thread about whom you have NOT made any snide comments, in fact HAVE said.

So what's up with that, heric? You on the rag or something?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: heric
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:34 PM

If, you, me, Jeri, and dianavan were settlers in a covered wagon in High Plains Drifter, and we pulled into the town after they had painted it all red, I would say: "They painted that town red."

Then we'd start arguing all to hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:38 PM

Only because you would (apparently) be telling us what we think, heric.

If you don't do that, I don't really have much of a disagreement with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 10:52 PM

Heric, that ("all to hell") is funny...

I did say that. He did read the 'Islamic' bit into it, but after reading a more, I agreed.   I'm not one of those people who realizes she's wrong but just keeps arguing because it's better to look like a complete idiot holding one's ground than back down and admit learning something.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 01:27 AM

heric - When CSIS goes out of their way to emphasize that it is not about a specific cultural group, they have a pretty good reason. The reason (I suspect) is that they do want to deal with the hate crimes that are committed when the media (and others) start pointing the finger at groups of people that have absolutely nothing to do with the criminal activity.

Surely you can see the folly of stereotyping groups of people, especially when it often leads to crimes committed against innocents.

But then again, maybe you've been in the States for so long some of that red-necked mentality is rubbing off on you. (Hows that for a stereotype?) At least my stereotyping is not going to lead to hate crimes against red-necks or Americans.

Are you going to accept any responsibility when the hate mongers start destroying mosques or harming innocent men, women and children who happen to be Muslim? Of course not.

As far as labelling them as terrorists, lets wait and see. I don't see any charges relating to committing a terrorist act.

Seems to me that all but two of the men are in their teens and early twenties and , "Two of those charged have been resident in the Kingston Pen since last fall, when they each received a two-year sentence for gun-smuggling." - Willie O

"It was also suggested that police agents were involved in purchasing the 3 tons of ammonium nitrate for the group." - Willie O

Have you ever heard of plea bargains or a set up? I'm sure you have. Why are you so quick to accuse these young men of being terrorists? Don't you believe in innocent until proven guilty? I thought you were a lawyer, not a judge.

Nothing is ever black and white, heric. Lets wait to see what they are charged with and then lets wait to see if they are guilty of terrorism.

In the meantime, I'd like to know that Canadian Muslims can walk the streets without fear of being mistaken for terrorists.

BTW - If they all painted the town red, I would want to know who "they" were before I started to point my finger.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 01:54 AM

Someone above likened this event to the boming of the Murrah bldg in Oklahoma City. The US govt's story of a fertilizer bomb doing all the damage at the Murrah Bldg in Oklahoma City is a lie. For expert explosive analysis, go here:

http://independence.net/okc/congressbombreport.htm

For video of the expert speaking, go here:

http://www.question911.com/links.php

The govt seized all the video cameras covering the time window just before the event, and FBI agents who looked at the films said two swarthy men in blue jump suits held the parking space for McVeigh, he parked the truck and they all walked away. Immediate reports advised cops to watch for a John Doe # 2. That man is named Hussain al-Hussaini, a former Iraqi soldier brought to the US by Bush # 1 along with thousands of other Iraqi operatives. They've been set up in safe houses all over the US, terrorist cells. Set up by Bush # 1. Lists of them...names and addresses...are on the web.
Hussaini was named by a local reporter as John Doe # 2 and he sued for libel. He lost on all 50 points.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31847

The Murrah building was blown by sophisticated explosives. The debris was then quickly hauled away before an analysis could be done, but there is lots of video at the question911 site about it. The local news was reporting two unexploded devices before the feds came in and put a gag on everyone. All this is public record. One of the explosive devices was a Tow missile in a locker in the BATF office, located just above the daycare center. The missile was pointed downward. It didn't go off.

Bomb units take 20 minutes to suit up in their heavy gear, yet they were on the scene one minute (in full gear) after the blast.
Paul Craig Roberts has done a lot of research on the OKC bombing:

http://www.riflewarrior.com/okc.html

Last time I heard him interviewed he said he'd concluded the bombing was indeed linked to the Clintons and Mena, Arkansas. That's where the CIA's cocaine-drop airstrip was during Clinton's long, long term as governor of that state. He protected the operation (which is why Bush #1 picked him as his reliable replacement), and there were records in the Murrah bldg that pertained to the Mena/CIA business. Clinton was president by the time of the bombing, so he ordered the records collected at the Murrah bldg and then ordered the building blown. The Feds gave up looking for survivors after half an hour and shifted to looking for records of a "national security" nature and hauled off several boxes. If all their bombs had gone off, those records would have been destroyed, but that didn't happen. So they gave up looking for wounded children and looked for Bill and Hillary's drug records instead.

Bet you never heard any of this on ABC/PBS. When the govt controls the media, it's a safe bet the people named as terrorists aren't. Only govts profit from blowing things up. If Moslems are so hell-bent on destroying Jews and America, why don't we have daily blasts in Hollywood and the diamond district of New York City?    You're just being terrorized by your govt with make-believe bogeymen. Quit feeding the bear.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:08 AM

I just think an Arab Muslim with a bomb and Canadian citizenship is an Arab Muslim with a bomb and Canadian citizenship, that's all. Nothing to fear.

I don't live my life in fear, but I do fear for the fact that terrorists, whose targets are always innocent civilians, are acquiring bombs. Think of New York City, Oklahoma City, Madrid, London, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa.

Toronto is my hometown.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:32 AM

I hope the f##kers get 20 to life. They will not fare well inside Canada's prisons. Too many of the cons have family on the outside. Reminds me of the b##tards who put bombs in mail boxes in Quebec. Some were given a free trip to Cuba. Within a decade they were begging to return. Unfortunately, we let them.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: MarkS
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:50 AM

The drug records are being hidden on the movies set in the desert where the faked Apollo moon landing was filmed.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 12:13 PM

The US should withdraw from Washington DC.

Iraqi civilian deaths 27.51 per 100,000.

45 per 100,000 in Washington, D.C

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 12:28 PM

Is the US military killing all of those people in Washington DC, too, GUEST,Fernando? I'm outraged! I hadn't heard about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 12:30 PM

Hear the drums, Fernando.

"Death rate [in Iraq, from CIA Fact Book]:   
5.37 deaths/1,000 population (2006 est.)"

"Death rate [in USA, from CIA Fact Book]:   
8.26 deaths/1,000 population (2006 est.)"

Definitely safer to be in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 12:32 PM

Guest at 1:54 AM today - I agree one would not ".......hear that on ABC/PBS......." As pathetic as I believe them to be, they are still NOT in the habit of spewing false garbage such as that you seem to enjoy.

Beam me up, Scotty!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Different guest
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 12:39 PM

And what's false about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 01:25 PM

Shit, Fernando, you can't even come up with your own pablum. You have to steal it from someone else (unless you're Eric Rasmusen)...

http://www.rasmusen.org/x/index.php?s=45+per+100%2C000+civilian+deaths

But you got it wrong. Eric puts the rate at 45 per 100,000 per year. And he is wrong as well.

Since you and GUEST,05 Jun 06 - 12:30 PM appear determined to change the subject and talk about Iraq here in this thread, I will go ahead and address your and his/her attempts at obfuscation...

The actual death rate of civilians in Iraq that are directly a result of the US led invasion and occupation is much closer to about 600,000 since the beginning of the invasion, more than two hundred thousand in the first 18 months alone. See this page for numbers. 200,000 comes from the Lancet survey, which Tony Blair considers to be "the most accurate survey there is"...

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_643.shtml

So that would make the death rate for civilians resulting from the war more like 765 per 100,000 per year.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 01:29 PM

The actual death rate of civilians in Iraq that are directly a result of the US led invasion and occupation is much closer to about 600,000 since the beginning of the invasion, more than two hundred thousand in the first 18 months alone. See this page for numbers. 200,000 comes from the Lancet survey, which Tony Blair considers to be "the most accurate survey there is"...

That survey was based on fewer than 100 people. Get a grip, Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 01:51 PM

I need to rephrase my last post. I din't do a very good job with it.

Tony Blair said that the "Figures from the Iraqi Ministry of Health, which are a survey from the hospitals there, are in our view the most accurate survey there is", and the figures from the Iraqi Ministry of Health supports the Lancet survey's conclusion that most of the civilian deaths are the result of violence from coalition forces, rather than the actual numbers of civilian deaths.

The Lancet survey was based on 4300 people, not fewer than 100, GUEST. Get a grip yourself.

The Lancet people also left the region around Fallujah out of their final report. I put that number back in for the purpose of this discussion.

4300 seems like a pretty normal sample size to me. Researchers use sample sizes like that all the time. Many aspects of your daily life are determined by sample sizes like that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 02:13 PM

What's with all the Iraqis vs. Americans talk in the thread about terrorists in Ontario?

I guess CarolC and her friends can't tell the differnece between Bhagdad, Washington and Toronto. Or maybe CarolC and her friends think all Muslims are the same no matter where they are or where they're from.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 02:22 PM

...here is another opinion about the Lancet (online) article...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The once-respectable British medical journal The Lancet has produced a report claiming were destroying Iraq to save it. It says that about 100,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed by coalition forces since the invasion began, most from airstrikes. The journal even admitted its findings were an October Surprise, pre-released online to sway the election across The Pond. But its conclusion will surely be employed by war opponents and Iraqi insurrectionists long after the November dust settles.

The research, led by Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore, involved sending teams to interview 998 families in 33 allegedly randomly selected neighborhoods across Iraq. They asked how many people in each household had died and of what, then extrapolated to the nation as a whole. Thence the 100,000 figure, which they claimed was conservative. But a better word is worthless. Consider just this: The sample size was so small that the range for deaths was a humongous 8,000 to 194,000. So Roberts and friends just split the difference.
 
They admitted the sample size was small, but pleaded it was necessary because the surveyors were in constant danger. By that, they no doubt meant F-16s putting them in their crosshairs, as opposed to those jolly terrorists who routinely kidnap civilians and slowly saw off their heads with dull knifes.
 
More than that, the researchers didnt feel themselves bound by anything official, like death certificates. Interviews were just fine. In the Iraqi culture it was unlikely for respondents to fabricate deaths, they wrote.
 
Such faith in the honesty of Iraqis is truly touching. But these are the people who gave us Baghdad Bob and are regularly quoted saying that once again a U.S. airstrike killed only innocents. Its as if American had developed a chip for its weapons that zeroes in strictly on women, children, and old men.
 
Cluster sampling can be valid if it uses reliable data, rather than on inherently unreliable self-reporting. But it can also be easily skewed by picking out hotspots -- like determining how much of a nations population wears dentures by surveying only nursing homes.
 
In fact, intentionally or otherwise, thats pretty much what The Lancet did. Most of the clusters had no deaths whatsoever. But heres the real bombshell: Two-thirds of all violent deaths were reported in one cluster in the city of Falluja, the journal reported. Thats it; game over; report worthless.
 
But why stop there? Consider also that 98,000 deaths during the time in question averages out to over 180 daily. Have you heard anyone claim we killed anywhere near that number on one day, much less every day? Even the insurrectionists wouldnt try to pull that off. They left it to The Lancet.
 
Consider also that even various self-styled human-rights groups have proclaimed the Lancet numbers outlandish. The methods that they used are certainly prone to inflation due to overcounting, Marc Garlasco, told the Washington Post. These numbers seem to be inflated. Garlasco is senior military analyst for Human Rights Watch, which has repeatedly been a thorn in the Pentagons side during the Iraq war.
 
The overtly anti-war group www.iraqbodycount.com estimates about 14,000-16,000 deaths since the war began. It cautions that its data rely solely on press reports, but considering how the Iraqis like to pad body counts this means its own figures are certainly too high.
 
Finally, consider that The Lancet researchers are far from disinterested observers. I was opposed to the war and I still think that the war was a bad idea, Roberts admitted to the Associated Press. "As an American, I am really, really sorry to be reporting this."
 
If you think Roberts Lancet editor Richard Horton might have been a check on sloppy work or outright false propaganda, think again. "Democratic imperialism has led to more deaths not fewer", he told the BBC, proclaiming coalition efforts in Iraq a failure.
 
We thus witness the further erosion of the reputation of Britains former leading medical journal. Recently its been embarrassed by two other reports. One tied childhood vaccines to autism, but turned out to have been paid for by a trial lawyer representing children in the study. The other combined 14 studies of antioxidant supplements, of which some showed protective effects, some showed no effect, and one showed a negative effect. It thereby concluded antioxidant supplements can kill you.
 
Now The Lancet has become Al-Jazeera on the Thames.
 

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:13 PM

CarolC was the first to post about The number of Iraqi civilians killed by the US led invasion and occupation in this thread Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:45 PM but she accuses others.

And if she doesn't like that fact that I got my figures from somewhere let her go to Iraq and Washington DC and do here own stats.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:20 PM

Carol will not let facts stand in the way of an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:26 PM

If we take CarolC's number of 600,000 civilians dead since the March 2003 push to evict Saddam Hussein, we get about 527 dead each day!!! The actual number of deaths in Iraq per day (by un-natural causes) is 27. CarolC, whatever you do in the future let's hope it doesn't involve accounting.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:31 PM

"Even anti-war and anti-American groups and individuals have indicated the Lancet figure is outlandish. "These numbers seem to be inflated," due "to overcounting," Marc Garlasco, of Human Rights Watch told the Washington Post. The website www.iraqbodycount.com estimates about 14,000-16,000 deaths since the war began. The Evil One himself, bin Laden, in his pre-election video, made reference to the Iraq war and stated "over 15,000 of our people have been killed."

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:7Tq1psPFHvsJ:www.fumento.com/military/lancetscripps.html+lancet+report,+iraqi+deaths&hl=en&gl

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:37 PM

"Death comes to Iraq now in many new and terrible forms. Though there is outrage among many Iraqis about the alleged massacre in Haditha last November, the violence on Iraq's streets is so unrelentingly horrific that even the worst atrocities have lost their power to shock. Few Iraqis even know how many people have died by the bullets and bombs. Definitive statistics are impossible to find in a country where the most violent provinces are out of bounds for journalists and human-rights workers, and where the state infrastructure--hospitals, morgues, police stations--is not up to the task of caring for the living, never mind counting the dead. According to the Iraq Body Count project, the most frequently cited source, at least 38,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed since May 1, 2003, when President George W. Bush announced that "major combat operations" had ended. More controversially, a study in the British medical journal Lancet in November 2004 put the toll at more than 100,000 since the invasion. Both studies say more than 4 in 10 of those deaths are attributable to U.S. forces."


*****OR THAT ALMOST 6 in 10 ARE NOT attributable to U.S.forces.******

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1200784-1,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 03:54 PM

CarolC was the first to post about The number of Iraqi civilians killed by the US led invasion and occupation in this thread Date: 04 Jun 06 - 02:45 PM but she accuses others.

No I wasn't Fernando. Pay attention.

When I posted what I did about numbers of civilian deaths in Iraq, I was expanding upon something that was said by number 6, who is the one who brought that subject up.

Do try to keep up, won't you?


pdq, the Lancet study was peer reviewed. The opinion piece you posted (without attribution) came some guy (named Michael Fumento - never heard of him) with an opinion.

Actually, my figure of 600,000 was in error. I multiplied 200,000 by three (three years) instead of two (two times 18 months). So that number should have been 400,000. So that would make the per 100,000 figure for civilian deaths due to the invasion and occupation more like around 270.

But hey, they're only ragheads and sand monkeys, so why should we be concerned?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:05 PM

beardedbruce, 4 in 10, when applied to 100,000, is 40,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:31 PM

Yeah ... I'm the one who first posted regarding the civilian deaths in Iraq ... 400,000, 600,000, 3,000, 8.25, 5.23 ... all these numbers everyone is arguing about represent human lives .... sons, daughters, husbands, mothers, wifes, .... doesn't matter if it's Iraqi, American, Sudanese, Muslim, Jew, Christian .... who cares if names are Islamic .... it is becoming a hateful violent world .... humanity has been passed over by religeous, philosphical, political arrogance .... there is too much killing going on all over the world. Doesn't anyone get that anymore.

sIxI

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:41 PM

Jeeezuz .... reading through these posts is like listening to a Democrat and Republican congressmen, or senators or some fat Washington politicians aguing on Fox, or CNN .... totally oblivious to the human element ... and that is the problem ... "let's get the numbers factual" they ague.... numbers, numbers, numbers ... and the killing and hate goes on.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 04:50 PM

So how many die in Iraq vs Washington DC?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 06:33 PM

CarolC,

"According to the Iraq Body Count project, the most frequently cited source, at least 38,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed since May 1, 2003, "
And another 20,000 from combat- So the US is accountable for about 35,000 "civilian casualties"- and the insurgents for the rest.

35,000 is not 400,000- the per 100,000 figure would be 23.625- too many, but close enough to Fernando's "Iraqi civilian deaths 27.51 per 100,000." And a lot less than in DC....


Feel free to argue about the significance of the numbers, but please try to use accurate numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 06:33 PM

Today's Toronto Star, "Leaders vow to root out extremism"

Muslim leaders say they feel a range of emotions — if allegations turn out to be true — toward the 17 men and boys accused of terrorism-related charges.

But they agree on one thing: It's time to get to the root of the problem.

Good. There is a perception by, well, me at least, that we don't hear enough from Moslems and Moslem leaders who are speaking out against terrorism. I don't know if they're just not doing anything noticable, or, much more likely, news sources in countries at war with Islamic countries aren't all that upset that people think Moslems all believe in terrorism, and don't try very hard to report what moderate Moslem religious leaders are doing to counter the extremism.

I think terrorism is a result of hatred and a lack of empathy. I'm suspiscious of those who seem to encourage hatred. We don't need more hatred. It seems to permeate every part of life these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 06:39 PM

'I'm suspiscious of those who seem to encourage hatred.'

Yeah. Too bad more people didn't question them when they started.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 07:21 PM

beardedbruce, from the website I posted a link to earlier, on the subject of Iraq Body Count...

"When President Bush recently spoke of 30,000 civilians killed in Iraq, his press secretary said that he was citing 'published reports.' Directly or indirectly, what he was probably citing was Iraq Body Count. But I Iraq Body Count's database is not intended as an estimate of total deaths. Its methodology is to record only war-related violent deaths that are reported by at least two approved international media sources. This generates a record of deaths that is accepted by the media that publish these reports in the first place. Its authors acknowledge that thousands of deaths go unreported in their database, but they say they cannot prevent politicians and the media misrepresenting their figures as an actual estimate of deaths. Iraq Body Count's 'minimum' number now stands at about 34,000."

So since the Lancet study is the only scientific study that was disigned to measure the total number of civilian deaths, and since their methodology was the same as what was used to determine the number of civilian deaths in the Balkans war, I think we can probably say that theirs is the most reliable.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 07:43 PM

"So since the Lancet study is the only scientific study that was disigned to measure the total number of civilian deaths, and since their methodology was the same as what was used to determine the number of civilian deaths in the Balkans war, I think we can probably say that theirs is the most reliable."

Well I'm certainly releived to see we have the Lancet study to keep the accurate figures on how many we are killing these days ... to bad LBJ didn't have such an accurate system on body counts ... who knows, history could have been much, much different.For sure MacNamara would have lost his job!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 08:47 PM

"I think we can probably say that theirs is the most reliable"


I do not think so, as I have stated in previous discussions. The range of deaths that the Lancet study comes up with is from 9,xxx to 195,xxx- with 100,000 being "selected " for political reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 09:33 PM

They may have offered a "range", but they consider 100,000 to be a conservative number. They would make that number more than twice that high if they included the area around Fallujah.


"Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been killed in violence since the US-led invasion last year, according to public health experts who estimate there were 100,000 "excess deaths" in 18 months.

The US-based researchers found that the risk of death from violence in the period after the invasion was 58 times higher than before the war.

The rise in the death rate was mainly due to violence and much of it was caused by US air strikes on towns and cities, they said.

"Making conservative assumptions, we think that about 100,000 excess deaths or more have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq," said Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in a report published online by The Lancet medical journal."


http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200410/s1230305.htm

And this is, of course, only taking the first 18 months into consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 09:38 PM

And as a benchmark, how many deaths per 100,000 occured under the Sadam government?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 09:41 PM

265/yr.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 09:42 PM

again...

http://www.slate.com/id/2108887/

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 09:45 PM

From my last post...

The US-based researchers found that the risk of death from violence in the period after the invasion was 58 times higher than before the war.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 09:49 PM

He gathered up more than 265 dead babies for his anti American propaganda dead baby parade.

"Saddam Hussein, he's the murderer, not the UN," said Dr. Azhar Abdul Khadem, a resident at the Al-Alwiya maternity hospital in Baghdad.

    Doctors said they were forced to refrigerate dead babies in hospital morgues until authorities were ready to gather the little corpses for monthly parades in coffins on the roofs of taxis for the benefit of Iraqi state television and visiting journalists. The parents were ordered to wail with grief - no matter how many weeks had passed since their babies had died - and to shout to the cameras that the sanctions had killed their children, the doctors said. Afterward, the parents would be rewarded with food or money.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 09:59 PM

From the Slate article

They then took the results of their random sample and extrapolated them to the entire country, assuming that their 33 clusters were perfectly representative of all Iraq.

This is incorrect. They left out the area that had the largest number of reported deaths. If we include that area, the number more than doubles.

And they only reported on people the families knew for certain were dead. Their study didn't include the thousands of people who have disappeared.

Bush acknoweledges at least 30,000 civilian deaths based on the Iraq Body Count study, and since the Iraq Body Count authors say that thousands of deaths are not included in their study, we know that the number is thousands more than 30,000.

Add all of that together, and it is not at all a stretch for the authors of the Lancet study to feel confident that their 100,000 number is "conservative".

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:02 PM

According to Human Rights Watch:

"during the Anfal campaign from February to September 1988, Iraqi troops swept through the highlands of Iraqi Kurdistan rounding up everyone who remained in government-declared "prohibited zones." Some 100,000 Kurds, mostly men and boys, were trucked to remote sites and executed. Only seven are known to have escaped."

Thats about 12,500 per month for those 8 months.

100,000 divided by 265 would 377 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:12 PM

I don't know why people can't start a new thread when they intend to disregard and over-run the original subject.

Maybe I should re-title this thread to "The War in Iraq" and move all the Ontario terrorist posts to a new thread called "BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario" so people know it's about the terrorists in Ontario and not about the war in Iraq?

The pushy, arrogant, selfish American is a popular stereotype these days. Judging by how threads are invaded and taken over by discussion about American politics, it's no surprise people see us that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:20 PM

Yeah but the whole thing is Bush's fault. That puts it in USA jurisdiction and Carol C is the best judge we have. Never made a bad judgement yet and she don't even need a jury.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:21 PM

Amercans are obsessed with numbers jeri. The hell with the substance and the meaning of humanity .... just numbers ... eventually they will drift over to how many miles border Canada and the U.S. and how many Islamic terrorsits can be harboured by the liberal thinking Canadians and what number of these Islamic peeple living in Canada are actual terrorist and how many will run across the border and how many people these terrorsit can kill ... average it out to what the porportion of the victims can be accounted by each of these terrorsts, .. then they can argue how they arrived at the figures and what system is more credible in determining these statistics.

Sorry ... but that is where we have ended up

sIx (6 = 2x3, or 6 x1 or 12/2 or ....

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:36 PM

How about that guy Ahmed Ressam that tried to enter through Vancouver and got caught?
Gazi Ibrahim Abu Mezer tried 3 times.
Mohamad Atta enterd through Canada.

Probably just as many go the other way too.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 11:01 PM

Mohamad Atta did not enter through Canada ... regardless, U.S. customs let him in ... and then U.S. flight schools taught him to fly!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 11:54 PM

CarolC,

If you go to the text of this "Lancet" article upon which you seem to base a great deal of faith in, you will find that it does state that 100,000 innocent Iraqi civilians have died, it says that from a study 100,000 MAY HAVE died. I believe that there is a significant difference in stating that some is as opposed to stating that something may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 12:02 AM

They give the number 100,000 as a conservative figure. I'm sure you know that this means they believe it is probable that more than 100,000 have died.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 02:17 AM

I believe the terrorists to be of the American home grown kind. They're part of a cell that wants to embrass Canada's lax borders. Their plan as I've been told was that Canada would not go along with US drug policies & that pissed off the wrong people. So disguised as SS motorcycle grass smugglers a few rogue agents from the Home Land Security Dept. went out to some hippie farms north of the border & collected so much pot that they had to smoke quite a bit of it before they could cartit away to trade for 3 tons of high grade horse shit. Now don't ya know it that it was on a Mic Mac reservation that this shit for shit trade went down & those people of the First Nations they have there own view, thoughts & laws about who comes & goes & who does what on their turf & things were begining to smell like black rotten salmon. Well, the salmon season did just close & they were over their 1/4 ton catch limit. As it turns out the reservation police arrested the whole bunch, confiscated all the motorcycles, saddlebags, helmets & fishing gear & firearms, that realy pissed them off. Well the agents tried to barter back all their underwear & belongings when they told them about their stash of 3 tones of ammonium nitrate. What's an ammonium nitrate tone sound like? Well, it's great to mix in concrete when it get freezing out & cures quicker & stronger than the 5000psi stuff. OK, You got a deal. So the deal was done & it was a done deal. The agents left all the shit & the shit & the aluminum sulfate & rode off on their tikes & trikes & alerted the Mounties, anonymously, of course, they never planned to make the collar anyways. Now the Mounties were pissed anyways about being embrassed about that "battle of the bridge" a few years back over the fishing rights & figured, what the hell the US has to back our play now anyway & the French, Jeeses they had now choice that they fished out the St Larry under the nation's noses. So, all they do is wait for the Sulfate & shit to get moved. As it turns out, the head houncho Chief El Cid knew that alot of his folk had been doing all the iron work on a project in downtown Toronto & that it was ready for pouring the concrete floors & well, ya know it's still freezing in Toronto. So about 17 Mic Macs go off with a truck of stuff thinking that they're gonna have winter work that's gonna last right through the summer & it not gonna be that far from home this time around, no going into the US. With all that border stuff going on & all & how they hate to us crossing back & forth, back & forth knowing that we got cigarettes & booze, well they just thought it'd be good for a change if they could find work in their own country, after they are of the First Nation. Wouldn't ya know they all got busted, and they still don't even know why, just a lot of Elk-Hide'n'stuff. Now the rouge agents back down south in the US are thinking if they can convince the the Canadians that these Mic Macs are really "Islamic terrorists" then maybe they can spin this whole thing in their favor. Get the borders closed down tight, maybe even fenced like way down in South America, like Texas, maybe ever get the Canadian government to pay for a good part of it. It'll look real good come election time for both governments & their ruling parties, more money can be ask for, for security & to fight for democracy & the war on terror. And it was a way better plan than the rogue agents started with anyway, ya know, blow up some buildings an' all. Now asking that Americans carry passports will be a shoe in & those Mexicans & their broken down trucks won't be part of the doing business in the US or Canada anymore. The peoples of the First Nations can take the place of the Mexican illegales & there'll be plenty of work for them, espically up in the NorthWest & around the Lakes, ok we'll have to give them back their fishing rights, so what.
They do have Arab sounding names now, don't ya know. Well all's well that ends well, say, will this cause more home growns to be grown or what? Maybe we can some how use those Waco Cults for something, or those Militia Men, ya they'd make get "Islamic terrorists" scapegoats & fall guys for something. I guess there's something to believing only half of what you see & none of what you hear.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,3refs
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 09:10 AM

I am from Orillia, just alittle south(10 min's) of where these individuals where doing some "extreme weather camping" earlier this year. My ancestors have been in that area for over 150 yrs. The road they mention, Cronk, is a Great Great Great Grand Parent of mine.
Now, days after the arrests, they admit that at least 6 of the individuals were members at the same mosque. I would suggest they are Muslims(Arabic for "one who surrenders"), extremists and terrorists. Being Canadian falls far down there list of priorities. They read the Koran and listen to there elders slant on what is really meant by the words that were spoken by God to Muhammed. Not much different than those who listen to Fallwell, Roberts or Koresh for that matter! All seem to think that their God is telling them that the world is going to hell in a hand basket and it's the other guys fault.
Canada, U.S.A., UK, Australia and other countries mean nothing to these individuals. They are bound by their belief in Allha and the teaching of Muhammed. We(non Muslims) are considered infidel(non believers).
The powers that be in Canada and the U.S.A. are telling us to be vigilant of anything that's unusual or out of the ordinary and don't hesitate to report it. Where do I stop? I find anything that is not part of my countries heritage to be unusual. I'm told that makes me intolerable of other races and cultures.
Well, I belong to the Human Race. I'm Canadian by birth! I believe in Maple Syrup, Peameal Bacon, Molson Canadian beer and that the Edmonton Oilers will eventually kick the snot out of the Hurricanes. I find comfort in any book or words, written yesterday or thousands of years ago that suggests we are all one. That spirituality is real. That something exists that is greater than us all.
E Pluribus Unum is something the world should borrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 09:55 AM

...Well, I belong to the Human Race. I'm Canadian by birth! I believe in Maple Syrup, Peameal Bacon, Molson Canadian beer and that the Edmonton Oilers will eventually kick the snot out of the Hurricanes. I find comfort in any book or words, written yesterday or thousands of years ago that suggests we are all one. That spirituality is real. That something exists that is greater than us all.

So be it, 3refs. And thanks for mentioning Cronk Rd. I'd been hoping these goings-on had nothing to do with the Rama Reserve. The people there have more than enough to contend with already.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 01:05 PM

I read in the news that those Canadians are trashing mosques in the Toronto area, which kind of surprises me after all I've read about Canadians around here. I thought they were supposed to be different, better even, than ordinary people.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 01:09 PM

We have as many idiots as you, Heric.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 01:27 PM

Maybe not quite as full of themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 01:36 PM

. . . Couple of little nibbles.
No bites yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 02:01 PM

England announced a terrorist plot foiled just before last weekend started (page 1), then on Monday the press mumbled something about it being a mistake. This stuff is all staged. The govt reporting on itself in a superficial way to keep you from looking to the heart of the matter. Sure terrorists exist, but they're govt operatives. So the govt makes it looks like lone wolves are the problem, to distract you. Such hogwash. The CIA created and still runs al Qeada, MI-6 blew things up to blame the Irish, and the Mossad helped create Hamas. The govts reporting this stuff to you are the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Metchosin
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 03:54 PM

OK Heric, since you seem to want some rise out of Canadians, we probably have way less idiots than you do, but only because our population is smaller.

Home grown terrorism is not particularly new to Canada either. We've had our fling before with the FLQ and the Squamish Five.

Don't recall then that their actions were blamed on their religions though or I probably would recall some Catholic churches being torched too. Do you think there wasn't any backlash towards the Catholic faith then, because the roots of those terrorist's family trees stretched back even farther than 150 years? LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 03:57 PM

Don't bother responding to Heric. He knows little about Canada and seems to have a great deal of pent up anger that he needs to vent.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 04:12 PM

Thanks Metchsoin; You're a keeper of course. But all that's biting are anonymous logged out losers. Moving on.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 04:44 PM

Wrong CarolC

"CarolC - PM
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 12:02 AM
They give the number 100,000 as a conservative figure. I'm sure you know that this means they believe it is probable that more than 100,000 have died."

They give the number 100,000 as a conservative figure. I'm sure you know that this means they believe it is probable that more than 100,000 MAY HAVE DIED.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 04:53 PM

read in the news that those Canadians are trashing mosques in the Toronto area, which kind of surprises me after all I've read about Canadians around here. I thought they were supposed to be different, better even, than ordinary people.


You should learn to read the news. One mosque had a few broken windows, an inexcusable and hateful response to the Islamic terrorists, but one that hardly suggests "Canadians are trashing mosques in the Toronto area."

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 04:56 PM

C Ham,

If one or two accused instances of torture or murder by US troops is sufficient to labal ALL US forces as such, than why not?


Or do you judge Canadians by a lower standard than you do US citizens?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 04:58 PM

Yes. Canadians are baaaadddd people. Beardedbruce gets some stuff mixed up in his head. He's confusing you with 631 other posters.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:08 PM

No, Canafdians prefer to kill a lot more people with asbestos than the US does with bombs... But that is ok, they are just asians, after all. Got to keep those 1000 miners employed, you know...


At least I am willing to stand behind my statements, unlike the "many" guests that have such a strong value of the worth of their opinions that they won't even admit who they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:22 PM

If one or two accused instances of torture or murder by US troops is sufficient to labal ALL US forces as such, than why not?
Or do you judge Canadians by a lower standard than you do US citizens?

I have never suggested anything of the sort.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:26 PM

If one or two accused instances of torture or murder by US troops is sufficient to labal ALL US forces as such, than why not?
Or do you judge Canadians by a lower standard than you do US citizens?

The above section, a quote from Bearedbruce, was meant to be italicized in mt previous post.

In any case, I have never suggested anything remotely resembling what Beardedbruce's imagination is attributing to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:29 PM

Asbestos or whatever--the terrorists get into Canada pretty easily. Basically I'm surprised something hasn't already. They busted that cell up in Lackawanna (Buffalo suburb) and Niagara Falls has 3 entry points in and out of the U.S.--The Peace Bridge, Rainbow Bridge, and Lewiston/Queenston bridge.

It would be SOOOOOOOOOO easy, you wouldn't believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:31 PM

No, but that logic is so common around here that it describes the reasoning that allows for the statment you corrected.

I did not intend to accuse you- I was trying to point out that the acceptance of "Canadians are trashing mosques in the Toronto area." is on the same level as accepting "If one or two accused instances of torture or murder by US troops is sufficient to labal ALL US forces as such".

But I do note a tendancy on this thread to presume "All Moslums are innocent until proven guilty", while the opposite is presumed about US troops. Perhaps someone who keeps pointing out how these mosque attending, arab surnamed individuals who are accused of attempting terrorist activities might not be Islamic Terrorists could explain the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:33 PM

No doubt you are prepared to do so, Beardedbruce. Why let anthing hold you back. Expond.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:38 PM

Peace,

I noted the difference in treatment, and have to presume either that US forces are considered to be held to a higher standard, since they are superior beings, or that the individuals are bigoted idiots. Feel free to pick whichever you like.

I do NOT understand the difference that says "US troops are guilty until proven innocent", and "All Moslums are innocent until proven guilty", hence my request for an explaination.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:40 PM

And who said they were? You drop into the thread and start giving people shit for stuff they didn't say. No point talkin' with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:41 PM

I repeat that my statement was not intended to imply anything about C. Haam, but rather about those who he was commenting on. I agree with C Ham on this specific point.

beardedbruce

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:42 PM

Beardedbruce,

YOU put false words in my mouth, words that do not represent my opinion, on an issue to which I've never commented in this forum.

That destroys your credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:43 PM

OK then. Gotcha.

Anyone who blames a whole country based on its extremists is an idiot. I doubt any of us are at odds with that. This is the third time we've agreed in three years. Keep well.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:47 PM

Peace,

I did not start the drift...

"number 6 - PM
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:31 PM

"Is 6000 pounds of ammonium nitrate and a cellphone detonator pretty much a standard thing for Candian citizens?"

Being a Canadian I don't think it's a standard 'thing' for my fellow citizens. But it certainly is peanuts compared the the amount of 'things' that have killed 20+ K Iraqi civilians in the last 3 years."


Try reading the thread before commenting-

No point talkin' with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:52 PM

Sorry C. Ham, if you think I "put false words in my mouth, words that do not represent my opinion, on an issue to which I've never commented in this forum."

I did not intend, nor believe that I have, but apologize if you feel that I did imply such.


Peace,

Absolute agreement. "Anyone who blames a whole country based on its extremists is an idiot."

Keep well.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:52 PM

I did read that. Stop being such a horse's ass. The next time you wish to address a certain poster, name the poster. Until then, GFY you pontificating AH.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 05:53 PM

Time and time again, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,an old friend
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 06:00 PM

"See this page for numbers. 200,000 comes from the Lancet survey,"

Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 06:13 PM

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

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"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

"Carol, the Lancet survey has been totally discredited, months ago, google it."

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 08:04 PM

Er.... to return to the subject, it seems the terrorists are being charged with plotting to kidnap/ capture some of the members of Canada's parliament, and then decapitate them.

Which leads me to the obvious....


Why couldn't they find their way to Congress?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 08:22 PM

Annony Mouse - You said, "...the terrorists get into Canada pretty easily." Thats U.S. propaganda. Those who were recently arrested were mostly Canadian citizens or Permanent Residents. None of them "crossed the border".

The reason the U.S. keeps pointing a finger at Canada is that they were caught with their pants down on 911.

Please cite the source of your information and provide more than one or two examples, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 09:01 PM

My feeling for Canada is such that a terrorist attack whether from within or without, would be for me no different than an attack on the United States.

...still wounded from 911.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 11:18 PM

Hey six, you ain't nothing but a number.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 02:48 PM

to return to the subject..
when members of the ISlamic community were asked to comment on the arrests
one response was;..'these are young people frustrated with the continuing Iraq war and Afghanistan etc..'

Canada stayed out of the IRaq war.
Despite the election of a US lapdog pm, (minority govt. at that) the Canadian public is overwhelmingly against the US war in Iraq, and even questions the increased emphasis on warfighting in Afghanistan without any stated goals for withdrawal.

It would seem the intent of a terrorist attack in Canada would be to to swing public opinion in favor of a more US style war on terror policy.
- which is ultimately designed to get more Jihadist recruits in the Islamic world. (Osama spends 50cents to get the US to spend millions)

So it seems that Jihadist websites are the latest recruiting and training tool - why travel to a training camp when its all on the net.

Why not a concerted effort to shut down or block these sites..or why is it so difficult?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST, eric
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 04:06 PM

>>It would seem the intent of a terrorist attack in Canada would be to swing public opinion in favor of a more US style war on terror policy.<<

Absolutely. If logic is involved, that is the only viable conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 04:17 PM

What do these people want anyway?

Have they ever said what they want other than to kill everybody that does not think like they do?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 04:40 PM

One article I read has said that they want the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan and the release of Muslim prisoners.

I haven't seen any reports anywhere saying that they want to kill everyone who does not think like they do

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 05:03 PM

There is a difference between stated goals, and actual goals.

it is naive to think they would publicize their actual goals.

(for instance even though Bin Laden criticized the US for the invasion of IRaq - ultimately it was a gift to OBL as it enraged the Muslim world and led to the recruitment of thousands of Jihadists. IN spending maybe $200,000 US with the 9/11 attack it resulted in two wars - and billions of US $ being spent. (Joseph STiglitz - former world bank economist - has estimated the IRaq War cost to the US economy between 1.5$-2 Trillion US dollars. Not to mention the recruitment of 1000s of angry young Muslim men to the Jihadist cause.)

OF course its likely that Osamas project just happened to collide and
energize the project of the NeoCons who were already planning to topple Iraq - install a friendly govt, and increase the oil output
thereby breaking OPECs control.

Getting back to the Canadian terror group, if such brazen attack had occured Id say it was highly unlikely that Canada would withdraw from Afghanistan. Rather it would lead to a more hardline govt. and possible backlash to the Muslim community. Anymore than 9/11 didnt lead to a more isolated and peace loving America.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 05:19 PM

A good movie to get hold of is "The Battle Of Algiers" a superb re-enactment of many actual events involving a Muslim/Algerian terror organization (with a political arm) and the French led anti-terrorist activities which led to the capture and killing of most of the primary members.

Despite the apparent success of the government, the French left Algeria.

The actions of a minority of terrorists can so polarize a situation that it may lead to mass conflict and possible resettlement, forced or otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:25 PM

What do they want?

Depends on what news channel you watch. I heard this morning that they wanted to behead our PM, Stephen Harper.

When I told my daughter, she said, "Those aren't terrorists, they're patriots!"

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:32 PM

Oh, so your daughter believes in killing politicians with whom she disagrees. Where did she learn her values?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 09:04 PM

C. Ham - She does not value Harper, nor do I. When you get a PM like Harper, its easy to be mistaken for an American. We'd rather stick to Canadian values.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 09:16 PM

Harper. Bush. Aren't two peeple that I hold to high esteem .... but I certainly don't condone or wish the killing of either .... or wish upon anyone. A Canadian value I guess, I dunno, maybe just a humane value.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 11:05 PM

That's right we have to see a report before we form an idea of our own.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 11:37 PM

If you form an idea that isn't based on any facts, Fernando, you're just making stuff up. That's called "fiction".

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 11:45 PM

Well you hear a little there and you read a little there and first thing you know you have an idea. But if you hear somebody else expressing their idea you can always say it has not been reported yet so it looks they don't know anything.

Has it been reported that I am making stuff up?

Until I read a report, I will go by the idea I have formed based on the bits of information gathered.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 01:59 PM

Why can't America and Canada merge into one big ass super power?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: pdq
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 02:08 PM

Quebec

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,3refs
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 03:10 PM

Quebec my ass!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: C. Ham
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 03:51 PM

C. Ham - She does not value Harper, nor do I. When you get a PM like Harper, its easy to be mistaken for an American. We'd rather stick to Canadian values.

I don't care for Harper or most of his policies. However, it is not a "Canadian value" to wish that elected politicians with whom you disagree be decapitated by Islamic terrorists as your daughter (and I presume you since you're bragging about her cleverness) advocate.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,the real me
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 04:17 PM

"Why can't America and Canada merge into one big ass super power?"

I take it you're an American ...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 05:13 PM

Why, Russ? Because we Canadians prefer not to live in a fast developing police state, thanks. We paid in blood to keep you guys out of here in 1812-14, don't forget. And we, like a great many modern societies, have free medical care. Without it, my middle-class family would presently be completely bankrupt, due to my father's recent lengthy illness.

(By the way, I was initially a bit surprised that the RCMP did not swoop down here and sieze my dog as a primary suspect...but then I realized....he's not Muslim. He's a Satanist. Or something like that...I'm not sure exactly. He's definitely bent on some kind of takeover, anyway.)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 06:35 PM

"Why can't America and Canada merge into one big ass super power?"

In the 1770's and 1780's we (US) tried it at least once (Musical reference: Stan Rogers "Barrett's Privateers"), and 'back' then we had a shapely colonial ass. Then we tried again in the War of 1812 (Musical reference: Arrogant Worms "Battle Of 1812")

Now that our ass is swollen huge and we can barely sit at our desk I doubt the Canadians are very interested in getting near it, even though we look so post-retro chic adorable as we tool by after work in our fully loaded Dodge Ram on duellies. . .

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 07:27 PM

C. Ham - I don't believe in killing anybody nor does my daughter. It was a joke. Maybe thats the biggest difference between Canadians and Americans. Canadians have a sense of humour. Especially when it comes to politics. We both know that it probably doesn't matter who the PM is, he would have been targetted regardless but since we don't like Harper, the opportunity to joke about it was just too great.

Personally, I don't like Harper one bit and if he died tomorrow it would probably save thousands of lives in the long run and definitely save the Canada we know today.

number 6 - Killing is definitely not a Canadian value. I'm just saying that with Harper in power, we will be unable to retain our Canadian value system. Everyone knows that he is another Bush lapdog. Anyway, I'd rather see the terrorists target David Emerson. He's even worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 09:06 PM

"He's definitely bent on some kind of takeover, anyway."
LH .... he's Tuetonic.

dianavan ... I agree Harper is attempting to (and with the Bush regime pulling strings) aligning Canada politically with the U.S. Sorry, I'd prefer fanatics not to kill anyone regardless ... and if they did, this would generate 'Americana' fear into the populace of Canada. We don't need that.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 09:15 PM

I should elaborate .... 'American' fear mongering into the populace that Bush takes great delight in ... providing the backing he needs to carry on with his agendas.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 09:29 PM

Yes, he is teutonic, no doubt about that...but it's the little tiny horns that are just barely beginning to show on his forehead that worry me. They're right above the little brown eyespots that bob up and down while he contemplates his next important challenge...how to steal the roast beef while no one is watching.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:57 AM

Absolutely Teutonic! Its not only the horns that are beginning to show, its the steely blue eyes with the pin point pupils that worry me. Never mind he has the body of an overgrown, pidgeon toed, 2-year old.

I wish Donuel has better knowlege of Harper's character. I'd like to see a cartoon.

Hey, where is Donuel?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 01:06 AM

This is why Canada's currently experiencing a bracing dose of "terrorism":

They're called the Bilderberg group.

They include European royalty, national leaders, political power-brokers, and heads of the world's biggest companies.

Those who follow the Bilderberg group say it got Europe to adopt a common currency, got Bill Clinton elected after he agreed to support NAFTA, and is spending this week deciding what to do about high oil prices and that pesky fundamentalist president of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060608.wbilder0608/BNStory/National/home

Phony terrorism is reported all the time in the U.S., usually after congress passes some unconstitutional new law. Pass the law, the next day pop someone for "terrorism" and report on that for 2-3 days. Hell, they even said they killed Zarqawi again. About 4-5 times they've reported killing him now. They must REALLY be getting heat at the Bilderberg meeting this year. Really trying to divert people.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:19 PM

Good points, Guest.

Dianavan, we are talking at cross purposes here. You are talking about Steven Harper. I am talking about my dachshund. I'm not sure which one I would trust less in a sticky situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:59 PM

Maybe you like being the pimple on north america's ass.

Join the Ass. be the Ass. American Super State

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 08:53 PM

You know...folks talk about GWBush as if he has some intelligence. As if he's behind his programs. He isn't. He has a 91 IQ. He took "group classes" at Yale because his individual grades would have been embarrassing, and he'd already been tapped, even back then, for prominence.

He's just carrying out the orders of the Bilderberg Group and The World Bank and the U.N. It's really all so simple when you understand "globalism" is being forced down our throats. The groups I just mentioned created a debt-based society so nations would go into debt, and now they're fostering terrorism to deepen that debt (increased military spending), and soon they'll start foreclosing on their mortgaged property. The US is going down (with a fight, to be sure, when Queen Elizabeth's and Juan Carlos' troops show up to seize their illegally-obtained properties in the states), but the couple hundred people who have run the world for the past 500 years are behind all terrorism. Abdul Yokel in Bumburn Iraq isn't capable of striking at the U.S., or Ontario, or London, and we all know it. Our leaders are selling us out. And the easiest way to get you to go along with the program is to scare you. It is so, so simple.

To their credit, though, the Canadians seem to get less flustered over this bogus terrorism. Could it be you folks see it for what it is? They saw through it in Spain when the fascists bombed Madrid before their last national election. Voted the bastards out of office. But then they don't have electronic voting in Spain like we do in the U.S., so we're going to have to get rid of our murderers some other way. I favor trials for treason.

The Madrid bombing was 911 days after 9-11, by the way. Juan Carlos is like a 246th degree Mason, and he really likes that numerological stuff. Those people ought to be glad they're allowed to keep their stinkin thrones and just quit bombing us. It's getting kind of tedious.

Texas Guest

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 10:19 PM

From the Toronto Star:

"The common denominator among them has been that they are Muslims, some rationalizing their irrationality in warped Islamic terminology.

But what are we to make of that any more than that most white-collar criminals happen to be Jewish or Christian? Or that many members of the Mafia have been Catholic?"

and btw - Isn't the Bilderberg group meeting in Ottawa this week-end?

Funny how the big bust happened right before the arrival of some of the most powerful men in Europe and North America. What a coincidence! I wonder what religions they belong to?

Criminals are criminals. It doesn't matter what religion they belong to and it certainly isn't an issue when its white collar crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 08:22 AM

Gee, thanks for the insights, GUEST. Really, I mean it. I've read this stuff before, but not for a while now. It does ring true, unfortunately.

So what can we do about it, huh? Crawl back under our little rocks and hide? Put our lives on the line, get ahold of some nitro and blast 'em all out of Ottawa? Make a daily habit of venting our frustrations and fears and hopelessness on our fellow Catters?

Or just forget it and enjoy every precious moment of life on this beautiful planet to the max, no matter what?

I vote the last option. Yes, it's socially irresponsible I suppose, but it works for me. Life's too short to waste getting caught up in other people's illusions and delusions and hates and fears and power plays, no matter how global. So do what you will, ye terrorists and Bildenburgers -- in my stubborness, I DEFY you all by staying just as peachy as ever!   And even if u blast me right off the face of the planet, I'll STILL be just peachy.

Different, yes, but peachy nonetheless.

And so will you all.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 09:08 AM

a href="http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/09/060609182249.1er4rqqb.html">http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/09/060609182249.1er4rqqb.html

Even the mainstream media is having to report the Bilderberg group now.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:39 PM

How can it be possible? There are NO terrorists in Canada! Just ask dianavan or number 6. They'll tell you.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:47 PM

DougR,

Dianavan doesn't think there are NO terrorists in Canada. She just wants them to kill David Emerson and Stephen Harper. And she applauds her daughter who says the terrorists are patriots.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 06:41 PM

Douggie: Mudcat's own Professional Prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 09:10 PM

Well, here's what one guy did, daylia. He started a website and has made a dozen videos tracking the growth of the global police state. And a couple days ago he flew from Austin here up to report on the Bilderberg group in Canada:

http://www.infowars.com/articles/nwo/alex_detained.htm

http://www.infowars.com/articles/nwo/bilderberg_mafia.htm

http://www.infowars.com/articles/nwo/kanata.htm

http://www.infowars.com/articles/nwo/secretb.htm

Because of him, we now have the list of the 125 participants at this year's conference. From Queen Beatrix to some Rockefellers to Mr. Wolfowitz, GWBush advisor in term 1 and now head of the World Bank.

Because of people like Jones, the Bilderbergs can no longer operate in the dark. Because of what he just did, less than 2 days ago. Hell, the number of countries they can meet in keeps shrinking because they are wanted criminals. Gangsters and war criminals. George Soros is a good case in point. Kissinger. These guys are Nazi-like hunted criminals.

Anyway, I just make CD-R's of the 9-11 videos nowadays and hand them out to people and tell them they and their kids will die in concentration camps if they don't do something. And they all say, "Like what?" And I say, "Like this. Disseminate information and get ready to defend yourself. These slugs can't stand exposure. They have to operate in secret, and that's no longer possible. Spread the word."

Seriously. If you la-dee-da, you're toast. This is a music forum...do any of you folks write songs about the 9-11 govt-sponsored mass murders? Or the London subway bombings that were govt-sponsored?

You know, you do what you can.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 03:06 PM

...do any of you folks write songs about the 9-11 govt-sponsored mass murders? Or the London subway bombings that were govt-sponsored?

Well, I can only speak for myself, but my answer is no, I have not written any poems or music to date about these horrific and tragic events. I usually don't find such depressing, negative topics musically inspirational in any way. Sorry, but Leonard Cohen I just ain't!

Besides, although the information you present is compelling and does 'ring true' imo, that's ONLY my opinion. "Ringing true" is wonderful, but it's just not enough to warrant the reaction you suggest. What you've claimed here about the BG is not fact. It's only conjecture -    a conspiracy theory. Such theories are, unfortunately, a dime a dozen these days. And I, for one, am not willing to go out of my way to distribute such upsetting, negative and unsubstantiated theories to the public. I'll leave that up to Alex Jones, Michael Moore etc etc etc. They probably do much better job of it than I ever could anyway.

Thanks for posting this important, if sobering, food for thought GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 03:50 PM

PS Looks like the Bilderberg Group can inspire rappers/hip-hop artists though ...

Bilderberg Group Meeting: Ottawa, June 8 - 11, 2006

yo souljahs,

if this is it, doo-wop, please let me know...

so, the biggest power brokers in the world are meeting in our hood to mess up our backyard, and what are we gonna do about it?

gangsta's?

hustla's?

ridah's?

thugs?

conscious with a concept and a conscience?

if you're half as hard as you say you are, if you're half as smart as you say you are, and if you wanna talk about "the system" and know what you're talking about... peep this.

it's about damn time hip hop and the rest of the shtruggul linked up and faced down the police state, used each other as cover fire, meant "ONE" when we said it, and let them mofo's know...

"...we ain't goin' out like that, we ain't goin' out like that... (we ain't goin' out!)... we ain't goin' out like that, we ain't goin' out like that..."


And a photo of the parking lot at the Brook St Resort in Ottawa, as the members of the BG arrived this week

According to the CTV other guests at the resort were asked to check-out before Thursday, cars left in the parking lot were towed and members of the hotel gym were told it would be inaccessible for four days. Even uniformed Ottawa police are required show identification to private security personnel before passing through the gates - a security measure they say is unprecedented.

The timing of the arrests of these alleged "terrorists" in Ontario couldn't have been more suspicious auspicious. After all in music, as in life, timing is of the essence ...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 10:23 PM

...and now we find out that these young men were converted to terrorists by Saudis. Wahabis.

Why has Saudi Arabia gotten off so easy? Seems to me the 911 terrorists were mostly Saudis, as well. How does Saudi Arabia escape so much blame? Why isn't the U.S. invading them?

Maybe its because Wahabi fundamentalists, Christian fundamentalists and Zionists all have something in common.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: number 6
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 10:33 PM

From what I understand, the Bush family are Saudis? Or at least their money is.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 11:47 PM

I pretty much agree with you on that stuff, Guest. Have read the Alex Jones material fairly extensively, and seen the video on 911 and the Murrah building bombing. Yes, I am convinced that the general public is being manipulated by a controlled media and the use of fear tactics. Yes, I am about 98% convinced that 911 was an iside job, planned in America, as was Oklahoma...as are most of these horrific events that we see unfolding.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 10:41 AM

Besides plotting to blow up the Parliment and behead the Prime Minsister, the terrorist defense lawyer says he has another bombshell to release tommorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 10:57 AM

Here's a nice, practical, Canadian-type of approach to solving the problem of extremist Islam in Canada... proposed by Canadian Muslims, and being heard by the prime minister (can't imagine a group of Muslims in the US ever even having an opportunity to speak with Bush).

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1845&ncid=1845&e=1&u=/cpress/20060611/ca_pr_on_na/terror_harper_muslims

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 01:07 PM

According to the defence lawyer for one of the accused, the arrests were timed suspiciously, ie to coincide with a vote in Parliament to extend the "Anti-terrorist Act". The proposed changes sacrifice dearly-held Canadian rights and freedoms, creating more of an American-style 'police state' here. At stake are the right to privacy, to a fair trial, to fair and humane treatment by the police and the media, to be viewed and treated as innocent until proven guilty.

For example, Canadian citizens suspected of planning 'terrorism' could be electronically spied on without censor, detained without charge for up to 72 hours and subject, I suppose, to the same decidedly 'un-Canadian' treatment those 17 detainees in Ontario are currently undergoing ie

"..the suspects were being treated differently than other people charged under the Criminal Code"

"...when the suspects first appeared in court after their arrests, they were surrounded by police teams with machine-guns, dogs and helicopters"

"...kept in rooms that are lit 24 hours a day"

" ...denied access to the outside for the first five days"

"... have five minutes to eat their meals or they are taken away"

"...when they are taken somewhere by guards, they must walk with their legs upright and torso at a 90-degree angle with their arms stretched out"

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/12/galati-client.html

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 12:54 AM

I am almost sure that none of these so-called terrorists will ever be convicted because the defense lawyers are saying there is absolutely no chance of a fair trial and too many people (including the Prime Minister) have already judged them to be terrorists.

So great! - it will probably be thrown out of court.

Isn't that convenient. Make a big show (knowing they are innocent or that they don't have enough evidence) so that 'security certificates' and holding people without charging them will seem like a good idea for the future.

Just another way to scare the public into accepting the loss of basic rights and freedoms.

I believe that these men were extremists but I am not so sure that it wasn't a set up. After all, it was the RCMP who delivered the fertilizer. The fact that the RCMP accomodated the plans to build a bomb makes you wonder if the extremists could have purchased that much fertilizer without detection.

In any event, we will probably never know if these men are guilty or not but the damage has already been done. Canadian people are now wondering if we might need more laws and stricter law enforcement. I think that was the idea in the first place. Guilt or innocence doesn't really matter anymore. The goal is to take another step closer to a police state.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:30 AM

Looks like you're right, dianavan -- we may never know if these men were guilty of anything. One of the judges placed a publication ban on the proceedings yesterday -- and this after the media has had a heydey with these goings-on for the last few weeks.

How convenient! First, violate their human rights and convince the public they're guilty, then bar us all from the proceedings. After all, what do the facts matter to the unwashed masses? What matters is ridding the True North Strong and Free of these bloodthirsty 'terrorist' types who threaten us -- or more specifically, threaten Big Brother south of the border.

And a horrible threat this really is -- prior to these 17 arrests in Ontario, all of one (that's 1 or ONE) person has been charged under the Anti-terrorist Act, which was implemented after 9/11.

We should really re-write the whole constitution over it, I think.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:06 AM

200

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:24 PM

Make sure to give them back their 6000 pounds of ammonium nitrate and their cell phone detonators.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:41 AM

Better yet, give it back to the RCMP! That way, next time there's important vote in Parliament and/or the planet's wealthiest powerbrokers/warmongers 'secretly' meet here to plot our collective military/economic futures, they could use it to set up another group of unfortunates at no further cost to taxpayers.

Recycling, if you will!

Of course, with the court's new publication ban we can only guess at the truth behind those 3 tons of ammonium nitrate and cellphone detonators. So please, take what I've said here with a big gram of nitro.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:24 AM

It's a bitch not being able to have a trial in the Media.

That way the perps can't claim they didn't get a fair trial because all the media coverage influenced people.

I'd rather wait and let the court determine if they are guilty or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 11:51 AM

one of their lawyers lamented about them being able to get a fair trial, with so much media coverage. (Although much of the information that came out recently such as storming the parliament and beheading the prime minister, or shooting into a crowd to kill as many people was actually released by the defence lawyers.
Now theyre lamenting about the publication ban. Its hard to have it both ways.

Imnot sure they will be all released, with any luck they (CSIS and the RCMP wont bugger it up like Air India trial. ) Here was the worst terrorist incident prior to 9/11 (most Americans dont even know about it) and the perpetrators got off scot free, even after milking the Canadian govt for hundreds of thousands in defense costs.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 12:45 PM

That way the perps can't claim they didn't get a fair trial because all the media coverage influenced people.

Too late. Thanks to the government's careful staging, they've already been convicted in the court of public opinion. So now, even if they are found innocent, nobody will notice because of the publication ban. The ban isn't for the purpose of protecting the accused. The ban is for the purpose of protecting the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 01:36 PM

Evidently judge Carol has determined that they are innocent based on hearesay evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 02:18 PM

I have not determined anything at all about their guilt or innocence. But if you want a fair trial for these people, you don't want to be using official channels to promote the idea that they are guilty, which is want the government has done in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 09:15 AM

Judge Carol has ruled the the government is guilty of the charges.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: pdq
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 09:47 AM

GUEST,petr is correct in his point that most Americans know little about

                                                      Air India flight 182

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: 3refs
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 09:58 AM

Lawyers are lawyers, prosecutors or defenders. They both are guilty of promoting their clients, be them the defendants or the Queen. The Judge(probably a Justice of the Peace) did the right thing in issuing a publication ban as soon as he could so as not to taint the potential jury pool(good luck).
I will admit, that if a person has been charged with an offence, chances are they're probably guilty, but until it's proven in a court of law, they're presumed innocent. The government, by chargeing these people with criminal offences is suppost to promote their guilt, that's why charges where laid.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 12:20 PM

Laying charges is one thing. Using the media to convict them in the court of public opinion is another.

Since they have already done so much damage, the only way they can prevent further damage would be to lift the publication ban to allow both sides to be presented, which is what their attorney wants them to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 12:20 PM

*which is what the defendants attorney wants the government to do*

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 02:43 PM

Mistrial ! the case has had so much media coverage that the defendant cannot get a fair trial.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic terrorists arrested in Ontario
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 12:53 PM

"Why do you see the speck speck that is in your brother's one eye and not the beam in his other" was in my mind when I posted.

I was amused and surprised when reading the first couple of responses that so many argued about the side issue of religion and ethnic background of the suspects and failed to see and criticise the real blunder in C.Ham's post. "Terrorist suspects" have been arrested and not "terrorists". Even the thread title was wrong. It was more or less at the same time when in London terrorist suspects have been arrested who turned out to be completely innocent.

Wolfgang