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BS: Faith
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Amos Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:27 PM Amos...I am startled at your reply about James Randi's motives. You seem to accuse him of engaging in charlatanism hardly better than that which he seeks to expose! It is almost as if you are saying he really knows better, but doesn't care, or won't look at the truth. I sure would like to get HIS response to such an assertion. "he must be aware that this impulse to convince people they are non-spiritual in nature is harmful, not to say despicable." At WHAT level? From the syntax of the statement, I gather that this is what you believe. Do I, in my ramblings above, fall into the same class of willful deceivers as Randi? Or am I exempt because I don't have a website and foundation? Should *I* know better? Bill: This is a complex question, but it deserves the best answer I can offer in brief. What we know and do not know is from the physical system perspective pretty much a function of serial exposure to information through experience and communications. But if you start examing whether there is any way that any knowing can be invested in a physical system you run out of answers very quickly. Information can be recorded, stored, forwarded, switched on and off, but there is a leap in quality, not just speed, complexity or quantity, when you look at "understanding" or "knowing", which are phenomena that machines can't. This raises the question of non-material aspects to the human being. THere is alot of chatter about this in NEw Age circles, of course -- you're not a human being having a spiritual experience, you're a spiritual being having a human experience, and so on. But for sure, one of the capabilities that a spiritual being has in plentiful measure is the ability to paint out wide areas of knowing, in order to enjoy the experience of working through the ignorance and discovering the knowing behind it. Or, another sort of explanation for the same thing, in order to avoid having to face areas of confusion or too much stress or pain. The shorthand for this in human terms is denial. But it is a lot more complex, because it tends to be self-fulfilling. Randi, for example, is going to be hard-put to ever experience any spiritual phenomenon. When his body dies, he may just stay black indefinitely, just because he has tried so hard to refuse acknowledgement of that side of things. Which is his privelege, I am sure. But at some level, there is always a quiet whisper that a being could listen to, if he chose, at which he knows what he knows, without the coloration of selective blackness or painting out of things. At some level the deserter knows how his abandoned wife feels, but heaps layers of ignoral on top, because he obviously prefers not to look at that side of it. What drives people in to rampant materialism? I don't mean just healthy intellectual interest in physical things, but in the kind of foaming refusal of any other order of event or entitiy? My opinion is that it is a long cumulative record of pain: cognitive, emotional, or physical pain, including things like losing love, being beaten by authoritarian teachers, having your certainties overwhelmed by others, being forced to learn thigns you do not understand, and other sorts. That's the short version. Regards, A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Bill D Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:44 PM quick reply before running out the door on errands: (mean of you to be up early and responding so fast!) "But for sure, one of the capabilities that a spiritual being has in plentiful measure is the ability to paint out wide areas of knowing, in order to enjoy the experience of working through the ignorance and discovering the knowing behind it." my mind SHOUTS "fallacy of 'affirming the consequent'" (could be a couple others..I need to brush up)..but the claim is stating that there IS a 'spiritual being' in order to make remarks about it! more later, perhaps... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: ChocolateLover Date: 09 Mar 04 - 01:00 PM Oh, I envy people with faith. I gave up on the church a long time ago (too authoritarian - and I could see clay feet they were trying to under gold cloth) and gave up on the idea of there being a God or higher spiritual being a few years ago, after my son died and a the subsequent heart searching had gone on for a year or so. Nowadays I try and live by do as you would be done by . . . I think I'm a better person now, though, than I was then - I spend more time making sure I'm helping those that are struggling than I did before. ChocolateLover |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Amos Date: 09 Mar 04 - 01:03 PM Well, I said it was shorthand. The "fallacy" comes only from the compression. If we are going to talk about whether there IS anything other than matter and mechanism in existence, all I can offer is good wishes, in the final analysis. I am at a loss to offer any other model which takes knowing anything in to account. You may feel that if you just add enough complexity to a material system, self awareness and knowing will arise like some Frankenstinan sequela, but I believe that is an absolute cop-out. My own out of body experiences, and those described by many others, indicate to me that there is no question that something more than electrons underlies the simple phenomenon of you, Bill, looking at a picture from a past experience and understanding it, or reading what I write here and understanding that. But, I have to add in all fairness that identities are like those little wooden dolls that used to be made in China, Russia and Jaspan wher eone nests within another within another. The boundaries and mechasnisms which define how one shrinks down from one level of identity to another are not fully known, for sure. But I think the general pattern is a good analogy. It is perfectly possible to have an identity which sees anything beyond the solid as delusion. That keeps things stable and predictable, largely. The reasons for doing so could be many. And from that point of view, of course, any suggestion that there is an alternative would look foppish, or delusory, or threatening, or fraudulent, or stupid depending on the individual turns. In the final analysis, we may p'raps have to just agree to disagree, and offer the warmest of good wishes. Dang, some one is asking me to do something productive... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Amos Date: 09 Mar 04 - 02:33 PM A quote from the Dalai Lama in The New Scientist series concerning the human mind: "Now I 'd like to say more about the fundamental nature of the mind. There is no reason to believe that the innate mind, the very essential luminous nature of awareness, has neural correlates, because it is not physical, not contingent upon the brain. So while I agree with neuroscience that gross mental events correlate with brain activity, I also feel that on a more subtle level of consciousness, brain and mind are two separate entities. Indeed, I believe the automatic assumption in cognitive neuroscience that brain and mind are invariably two sides of the same activity limits the scope of scientific enquiry. That assumption means that science looks for its answers only within an arbitrarily limited framework. With so many new developments and discoveries in brain science, perhaps scientists might break out of this paradigm and expand the parameters brain science has set for itself." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Two_bears Date: 09 Mar 04 - 06:53 PM Two Bears....I hardly know where to begin, and as I say, time is limited....but in all your detailed replies (which are NOT what I was seeking), I see one theme repeated.."I, Two Bears, have seen and experienced much of the phenomena you refer to, and I state that they ----- I HAVE have many weird and unexplainable encounters. ----- work!"........You also state that you used to feel otherwise, BEFORE certain experiences, so presumably you know what it feels like for those of us who are not privileged to have such experiences. *little wry smile* ----- I used to be EXACTLY like you demanding proof; but when one has an OBE, and has experiences that defy description; it changes you. Though we disagree regarding paranormal experiences; I DO understand where you are coming from. ----- about Randi...I think I read on his site that the $$$$ IS in escrow! I will go read some more. ----- It may be in escrow now; but it was not that way when Sylvia Browne and Evelyn Paglini agreed to be tested, and the Unamazing Randi blew a gasket. ----- was...and whay the outcome was. As to Kirilan photography....I will later look up what I can find on it..(I know the 'basic' claims)..and I will wager that I can find as many de-bunking explanations of it as supportive claims FOR it....just a hunch. ----- Oh there are debunkers of Kirlian photography regarding the image of a cut leaf, and a ghost image of the missing half of the leaf shows up. If someone has the skill to remove the leaf and cut the leaf in half and put the half leaf EXACTLY where it has been before, or someone was able to cut the leaf on the plate without moving the half leaf even one milimeter from where the leaf was in the previous image; then that person should be a neuro surgeon. ----- re: your note to LH at the end..." 1. To the person that is a debunker (Don't bother me with the facts; my mind is made up); no amount of proof is adequate." ....isn't that what BOTH sides say, with "debunker" changed to "adherent" to suit the circumstances? *grin* ----- No. Unlike the debunkers; I and other experiences do not ask that you or other people take our word for it. ----- For my own part, I certainly DO have standards and levels of proof that *I* would consider adequate, but I suspect that you would say ----- This reminds me of the young man that goes to visit the Medicine man of the village. The old Medicine man started talking of the Great Spirit, and using manitou to heal others (Manitou is the Osage Indian name for lifeforce energy. (Chinese call this energy ch'i)). The young man interjected and said "I don't believe in God." the old medicine man says "That's OK. He doesn't believe in you either." My suggestion is for you to open your heart and mind, and start working with universal lifeforce energy, and either prove or disprove it to yourself. I wrote the material on the website http://geocities.com/huna101. If that does not appeal to you; then study Qigong, Reiki, Actualism www.actualism.org, etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Bill D Date: 09 Mar 04 - 08:09 PM well, I'm not sure that what the Dalai Lama believes is any more relevant than what Amos believes...or Bill, for that matter. (other than a succinct expression by one who has spent many years considering the issue) And, yep, I guess we do reach a point where we can say very little more to each other on the matter. You say "You may feel that if you just add enough complexity to a material system, self awareness and knowing will arise..." and I say, "well....maybe so, I don't know"..and I am willing to NOT know. I do know that stuff happens today that was once thought to be the work of devils or spirits by 'less enlightened' cultures long ago, and stuff STILL happens in the brain that we are not sure about. My first wife had a Caesarian section under medical hypnosis many years ago...she was told not to feel pain, and she didn't....and others under hypnosis have been told a stick is a red-hot iron, and they scream and blisters arise when they are touched. I also know of bio-feedback, where the brain/mind does things to control responses that are not 'usually' of concious volition......What this tells me is that there is SO much to be studied and learned about that material bunch of neurons and synapses in our heads. It does NOT tell me that I should believe in the most interesting suppositions put forth by those who will not wait for answers. *shrug* You may find it hard to believe, but I would LOVE to be proved wrong...if I can have an explanation of how it works that doesn't rely on poetry and linguistic weaving to clarify the matter. If your point is that it MUST use those images and poetic constructs because it is, by definition, unknowable in traditional physical terms, AND not demonstrable to those who will not, like me, 'open my mind' and believe in order to see....then we are at a gen-you-wine 1st order impasse! I do feel, however, that the discussion is not a useless endeavor, even with no particular resolution. I have learned a lot about various viewpoints, and where to read further....and the very process of typing out these points allows me to stop and consider just what it is that I DO think, and makes me choose my words carefully and refine my ideas. As long as we agree not to throw bricks when we meet someday..*grin*, I consider it time well spent to debate with someone who thinks...even if not exactly like me! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Amos Date: 09 Mar 04 - 08:59 PM Only thing I aim to throw your way is a barred F chord or so, Bill!! And really the gap is not that great. I think a scientific hypothesis that runs into a brick wall can justify adding one element to cover a wide range of phenomena, just as, for example, was once done with the luminiferous aether before Mitchelson-Morley stepped in. It was a good working hypothesis. Didn't prove true but it helped align more data than without it. Take all the associated phenomena that material science cannot yet explain, including those you mention and the occasional case history of telepathy and maybe an OOB or two and p'raps even a case of verifiable reincarnation (there are plenty that might be, in the literature) and for ALL those unexplainable phenomena you add one little postulate to your world view that says exisitence has matter, space,, energy, time and life-force, or spiritual nature to it -- one lousy little addendum...and all of a sudden, all those weird things fall into line nicely. Thus, a more elegant model, IMNSHO! :>) Just as energy has characteristics like, say, charge, current strength, number of joules, etc., so might life force have its own characteristics -- maybe affinity is one. Maybe understanding or something like that -- knowing -- is a measurable quality? An awful lot of unknown territory there, for sure. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Bill D Date: 09 Mar 04 - 11:01 PM I can now DO a barred F, Amos...I take my autoharp and push on the bar that says 'F'.... Come see us in October, and we'll compare which is easier... (some good stumps for speeches there, too!) I see your point about "adding one little postulate", just as I see Two Bears' point about "opening my heart & mind" and "working with universal lifeforce energy"...but that feels to me very much like 'throwing the dart, and then drawing the bullseye', that is, asking me to alter my 'mood' in order to see, rather than showing me something that works, no matter WHAT my mood. ....I strongly support the basic idea of Occam's Razor, and what you and Two Bears suggest smacks of pluritas way beyond necessitate. (been working late at my lathe, and I sure could use an OOB right now!...will single malt scotch help?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Art Thieme Date: 09 Mar 04 - 11:26 PM I mean absolutely no derision or ill will to anyone who has a faith-based life. You out there who know me best are well aware that my own personal life and situation bares that out. It just comes down to this: Faith has always seemed to me like wishful thinking. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Amos Date: 09 Mar 04 - 11:34 PM Wal, boys, I ain't gonna say it is so, an' I ain't gonna say it ain't. Old medicine man once tole me, if the only person you listen to is yer horse, the whole world looks like a saddle. Bodies are kinda like horses from that perspective, see wot I mean? Limited frequency set, but more'n willing to assert they got the whole damn spectrum wrapped up, when they don't. Kinda like them lawyer types from Masserchusetts, Ah reckon! Small spectrum but high amplification, if yez takes mah meanin'... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Ellenpoly Date: 10 Mar 04 - 05:09 AM I actually read all this thread! I was pretty sure that what Jerry had in mind was the chance for people to just say what was in their hearts and minds on the subject. Wouldn't just stating one's case for their faith or lack have been more to the point? Chances are no one here is likely to change one's own thoughts, no matter how much is written and rewritten, debated, and how often jokes are injected to lighten things up. But it seems to be fun for some of you to try. Never mind, I learned a bit more about some of you, which is a good thing...Thanks..xx..e |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: freda underhill Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:54 AM Dr Ozlinsky notes: those who sneer at others' faith/beliefs/haircut are compensating for their own deep lack of faith - in themselves. why try to continually prove superiority? only those who feel inferior on some level need to do this. *grin* (first time I've grinned on mudcat) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:46 AM You're right, ellenpoly: I did start the thread just to encourage people to express what they believe in. And for awhile it went that way. It's not important that I believe the same thing, and I don't have any desire to belittle what others believe. But then, sometimes you learn more about people by what they don't believe, or are even judgmental about. That said, I've enjoyed this thread, and in a way, I think I have succeeded in doing what I started out to do. I laugh at the thread on secularity and religion because Guest is so intent on superimposing his/her agenda on the topic that they spend half their time trying to stop people from discussing words that THEY use. This IS Mudcat, and once you start a thread, you let go of it. I haven't tried to steer this thread, or do anything to control it. It's gone where people want it to go. At this point, it's probably lived it's life and most of us have said what we had to say. My only desire would have been that more people had expressed what they believe and spend less time trying to dismiss what others believe. Now, if I started a thread titled. "Everyone else is Full Of It," I could probably beat the dumbest thread ever, or whatever the title is. Don't get me wrong. I like Mudcat, and instead of being bothered by thread creep, I welcome it. Every once in awhile, someone will bring it back on topic, but even if they don't that's alright. Threads have a natural life span. When they start to go off on a tangent and become a conversation between three or four people, then they've probably served their original purpose. And that's alright too. 'Smatter of fact, life is pretty darned alright, as far as I'm concerned. And I thank EVERYONE who has contributed to this thread in whatever way they felt inclined. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:08 AM "Everyone Else is Full of it!" would indeed be a fruitful title for a satirical thread, Jerry. It's fascinating how tenaciously people defend their chosen view of reality and a bit perplexing how offended they can get when offered a differing view. This sort of wrangling gets worst, however, when it steps out on the political stage, I think. Ellenpoly - keep plugging away. Your persistence will be rewarded eventually, as people on the forum get to know you better. :-) - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Two_bears Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:21 AM well, I'm not sure that what the Dalai Lama believes is any more relevant than what Amos believes...or Bill, for that matter. (other ----- Bill: You are absolutely correct here. Each of us are are on different lifepaths, and each of us are on a search of Spirituility that works (answers our spiritual questions) for us. The Dalai Lama found his answers in Buddhism. My guardians found their answers in the Baptist religion, I found my answers in blending Native American Spirituality and Hawai'ian mysticism. Before I found my answer; I studied assorted forms of "christianity", Buddhism, Taoism, Eckankar, Wicca, Druidry, and several others. The onus is on each of us to find the answers to our spiritual questions, and allow the soul expression. ----- I do know that stuff happens today that was once thought to be the work of devils or spirits by 'less enlightened' cultures long ago, ----- I know EXACTLY where you are coming from. I was a very psychic child, and did not have the sence to keep my big mouth shut; well they thought that was a gift of Satan, and they did their best to beat Satan out of me. I still have a knot on my left collar bone 1/2 the size of a chicken egg where my guardians broke a broom handle over it, and I have avout 75 scars on my arms where I was burned with cigarettes as punishment. ----- and stuff STILL happens in the brain that we are not sure about. My first wife had a Caesarian section under medical hypnosis many years ago...she was told not to feel pain, and she didn't....and others under hypnosis have been told a stick is a red-hot iron, and they ----- Hawai'ian mysticism explains this pretty well. The Hawai'ian kahunas understood there are three spirits or selves in a human being. The selves are Unihipili (sub conscious mind), Uhane (conscious mind), and 'Aumakua (super conscious mind). The Unihipili has COMPLETE control over the kino kanaka (physical body). If the Unihipili is convinced there will be no pain or even bleeding; the Unihipili directs the kino kanaka to not feel any pain, or even bleed. There is also a surgeon at the house of Dom Ignatio in Brazil. Don't ask me to spell the name of the town. The surgeon Joao De Deus (called John of God) This is a simple man with NO medical training. He does surgeries with a pocket knife while channeling entities that were surgeons when they were human beings. I have never seen John of God do an operation; but a long time friend and her husband (her husband is a medical doctor in California)went there. When John of God was told that Peter was a medical doctor; Peter was asked to assist with the surgeries. I have given a brief synopsis of what Peter saw in the surgeries for your information) I saw him literally cut people open on the stage with his pocket knife (no sterilization facility), remove the gall bladder, inflamed appendix, tumor, remove cateracts from the eye, and others. The patient was awake and talking during the surgery, in no pain, and no bleeding, then after the surgery was over; he sewed them up with needle and thread. During the days I was there; I happened to see the people that received surgeries a few days before, and I asked to see the incisions. I did not see a trace of infection. I do not know what to believe any more. ----- those who will not wait for answers. *shrug* You may find it hard to believe, but I would LOVE to be proved wrong...if I can have an explanation of how it works that doesn't rely on poetry and linguistic weaving to clarify the matter. If your point is that it MUST use those images and poetic constructs because it is, by definition, unknowable in traditional physical terms, AND not demonstrable to those who will not, like me, 'open my mind' and ----- I KNOW you're wrong; but I do not ask you to take my word for it. ;-) Debunkers demand that I ignore first hand experience and believe their statements hook line and sinker. It does not require poetry. It does require that you change the way you think. Children wanted to see the young carpenter (Jesus), and the disciples tried to send them awway, and the young carpenter rebuked the disciples and said words to the effect "unless you become as little children; you will not see the kingdom of God" This did not mean go back like children; but to look at the world in a sence of wonder where anything is possible. The first step to wisdom is the statement "I do not know. I have found a lot of answers to my spiritual questions; but I am not sure those answers are the 100% correct; but those answers work for me (The way the alien Klatu told Professor Barnard "It works well enough to get me around the galaxy" in the movie "The Day The Earth Stood Still). I am only sure of one thing "For creation to exist; there MUST be a Creator." ----- refine my ideas. As long as we agree not to throw bricks when we meet someday..*grin*, I consider it time well spent to debate with someone who thinks...even if not exactly like me! ----- I promise. I will NOT throw bricks if we meet. That would not be in the spirit of Aloha. ;-) If you are comfortable with it; I will even demonstrate the heat emanating from my hands. By channeling mana to heal people; I have seen people flush beet red from the top of their head to their waist in minutes, and have seen injured nerves, tendons and muscles regenerate in 3-4 minutes, and the person regained the use of their hand AFTER their doctor told them the only way they would regain the use of their hand was through surgery. I also have a folder you could read that contains E-Mails and letters from some of my students. Some of them; I passed Reiki attunements to them, and what they experienced on the other side of the planet when I passed the attunements, and others that tried to direct lifeforce energy into a cloud, and burn a hole through it. I am NOTHING special. ANYONE can do this IF they try. This spiritual technology is EVERYONE'S birthright. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Two_bears Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:29 AM characteristics like, say, charge, current strength, number of joules, etc., so might life force have its own characteristics -- maybe affinity is one. Maybe understanding or something like that -- knowing -- is a measurable quality? An awful lot of unknown territory there, for sure. ----- Amos: Universal lifeforce energy DOES have measurable qualities. To the Hawai'ians there were three voltages. Mana (basic mana used ny the Unihipili), Mana mana (Mana is taken by the Uhane, and ramped up to mana mana) a higher frequency), then Mana loa (the 'Aumakua, ramps basic mana into mana loa. and mana loa is where the miracles happen. To the Yellow emperor of China; there were 32 different kinds of ch'i. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: *daylia* Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:35 AM Jerry I've enjoyed reading and contributing to this thread, debate included. Thank you for starting it! ...been working late at my lathe, and I sure could use an OOB right now!...will single malt scotch help?) Maybe, Bill, but then again you'd probably (and most logically) attribute any "experience" you might have to the scotch. Back to square one! You also state that you used to feel otherwise, BEFORE certain experiences, so presumably you know what it feels like for those of us who are not privileged to have such experiences. *little wry smile* Well it's no "privilege" imo Bill. Any human being who has an honest desire or true need for a "spiritual experience" is guaranteed to have it when they are ready, as long as they make some sort of sincere effort towards that end. Visions, even majestic experiences like the phenomenal one shy cat shared above sure rate second best to knowing that every experience you'll ever have, physical and otherwise, is a "spiritual" one. And it really is. It all depends on one's perspective. To quote from The Little Prince ... The eyes are blind. One must look with the heart. - Antoine de Saint Exupéry (Oops, that's poetic, not scientific. Sorry, Bill ... I still like it though ....) You may find it hard to believe, but I would LOVE to be proved wrong...if I can have an explanation of how it works that doesn't rely on poetry and linguistic weaving to clarify the matter. Well if you're sincere and not just pulling everyone's antlers Bill, PM me if you want. I have an idea that requires no special chants, postures, moods, religious "beliefs", linguistic weaving, poetry, trauma, debate or philosophy. If the time is right, you could maybe prove or disprove your own ideas for YOURSELF, once and for all. daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:55 AM Daylia: I was going to make that same quote from the Little Prince... just ran across it the other day. The exact quote is: "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly: what is essential is invisible to the eye." Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:59 AM Little Hawk: I wrote a Song, Isn't That A Dreadful Shame many years ago with the last verse: "Some are too young, and some are too old And most are too blind to see You'd think with all these people who are living 'round here There'd be a few as nice as me." Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Amos Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:00 AM "For creation to exist; there MUST be a Creator." Well, sure -- but one? Or several trillion of them? The universe could just as well be an average of projected illusions being put in place by every spirit that ever walked, flew or swam through, as it could be the byproduct of one Giant Being's instant impulse. I ain't saying it is one or the other, but let's not get locked into any fixed ideas here! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Wolfgang Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:49 PM poetry and linguistic weaving That sums it up well. Many here say they want to see science broaden its approach, but what they really mean, or what the effect would be to give up good parts of it. The quote from the Dalai Lama shows beautifully a very deep lack of understanding what the good reasons for science's narrow approach are. If we weaken the rules what makes a convincing case or not we loose much of the power from the scientific approach with a very doubtful gain. A nice 'poetic' trick made me smile: For creation to exist; there MUST be a Creator: To use the word 'creation' instead of a more neutral term like kosmos lead to this spurious argument. By the way: If the evidence for seemingly paranormal acts or demonstrations would be as clear as some of you like to think, there would be not the slightest need for broadening the approach of science. Demonstrations which really would be so impressive as those cited would make scientists quickly change their minds even without a good theory how it happens. In reality, when for instance scientists gather a bit of what one of those Brazilian 'doctors' gets out of the body of a patient, it turns out to be chicken intestines. As long as the case is not clearer there is no need for a change of theories. You seem to plead for changing theories without any good reason. No reason to discuss unicorn DNA without better proof of its existence. Scientists love to change their theories (Einstein, etc) but not with a compelling reason. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Two_bears Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:57 PM Well, sure -- but one? Or several trillion of them? The universe could just as well be an average of projected illusions being put in place by every spirit that ever walked, flew or swam through, as it could be the byproduct of one Giant Being's instant impulse. I ain't saying it is one or the other, but let's not get locked into any fixed ideas here! ----- There are too many things right for human existence for human life to occur to all be an accident. There is fresh air to breathe in the right range. water is not poisoinous and can sustain life, temperature ranges are in acceptable ranges. If the earth was closer to the sun, we would burn, too far away, and we would freeze. The moon is at the exact size and distance to completely cover the sun in a total eclipse, and hundreds of other things that we need for life as we know it to exist. animals and plants to eat, vitamins and minerals, etc that keep us healthy. About now; someone is saying but what about evolution? I believe in micro evolution (beings evolving to be taller. have an opposible thumb, improving intelect. etc. I do NOT believe in macro evolution (evolution causing beings to transmute into other species. If we descended from monkeys. why are there still monkeys? Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:18 PM Your faith never ceases to impress me, Wolfgang. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: *daylia* Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:18 PM Ah Jerry, that small still voice within warned me I was paraphrasing too! But would I listen, and get up and look up the full quote? Oh no, not me .... there's no scientific evidence for that small still voice anyhow ... ;-) For posting the full translation, merci beaucoup, and I just can't resist ... "Voici mon secret. Il est très simple : on ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux". C'est tres musicale en francais, n'est ce pas? :-) In reality, when for instance scientists gather a bit of what one of those Brazilian 'doctors' gets out of the body of a patient, it turns out to be chicken intestines. Wolfgang, I would very much like to see any evidence you might have to support your claim. daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Bill D Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:37 PM " I would very much like to see any evidence you might have to support your claim." I have SEEN a video of the way the trick is done! It is exactly like a good magic show, involving plastic bags, arrangement of sheets, audience angle, and practiced slight of hand. The 'doctor' relies on the viewers expecting 'magic', and does not appreciate anyone suggesting that he show what's under the sheet or allowing them to stand BEHIND him while he works. I know..."that's only the DIShonest ones"..*grin* I don't know if I can find the actual video, *daylia* ------------------------------------------------------------------- "If we descended from monkeys. why are there still monkeys?" ummmm...because only a few early monkeys evolved...or needed to. The changes necessary to cause mutation are *random*, and do not happen to every individual! Same reason you can put a snake on an island and come back in a million years and find a very different snake with different adaptations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Wolfgang Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:40 PM A short site about faith healing Then of course Randi's book The faith healers (publ. by Prometheus) American Cancer Society. Unproven methods of cancer management: 'psychic surgery.' CA -- A Cancer Journal for Clinicians 40:184-188, 1990. (the most scientific one) bottom line: all demonstrations to date of psychic surgery have been done by various forms of trickery. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Bill D Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:41 PM look here for various explanations |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: C-flat Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:58 PM Like most people of middle-age, I was given, and accepted, religious education at school and was turned out to Sunday school because it was expected. My faith was unquestioned untill I was a young man, at which point I discovered other interests, as young men do, and never really thought about matters of faith for many years. In our modern world, science seemed to hold all the best cards and it seemed that we were on the verge of discovering the big truth with the advent of space travel and atomic science. More recently I'm rediscovering a kind of faith, although my colours aren't nailed to any mast in particular, and what science I have read of late seems only to point more and more to there being some sort of plan or structure to the creation of the universe and what life it holds. Take a look at this site for an example of how deep the structure runs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Two_bears Date: 10 Mar 04 - 05:30 PM A nice 'poetic' trick made me smile: For creation to exist; there MUST be a Creator: To use the word 'creation' instead of a more neutral term like kosmos lead to this spurious argument. ----- It is NOT a spurious argument. It is logical. What caused the uncaused first cause? What caused the big bang if you accept that theory? Which came first? the Ford Mustang, or the person or team of people that designed it? Looking at the world and the vast number of things required to sustain life; I believe Earth, and the things on Earth are created. ----- good theory how it happens. In reality, when for instance scientists gather a bit of what one of those Brazilian 'doctors' gets out of the body of a patient, it turns out to be chicken intestines. ----- You're wrong. Joao De Deus is NOT in the group of frauds you mentioned. 1. He has treated more than 11 million people in the last 30+ years. 2. He refuses payment 3. there are 139 documented cases where people have been cured of aids. 4. Quite often he removes tumors weighing up to 5 pounds and more. difficult to palm that. 5. There are lots of surgeries recorded on video tape. 6. He does healings every week at the house of Dom Ignatius outside Abadiania (not sure of the spelling) Brazil. All the skeptical scientists would need to do is watch closely and video tape the surgeries then watch the tape in sow motion to see if he is a fraud. What are they afraid of? Being proven wrong, and shown the world does not work the way they think it does? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Two_bears Date: 10 Mar 04 - 05:39 PM I have SEEN a video of the way the trick is done! It is exactly like a good magic show, involving plastic bags, arrangement of sheets, ----- I too have seen videos showing the alleged psychic surgeons in the Philapines. Since when are all psychic surgeons to be judged by the action of a few? Since when with the Unamazing Randi or other magicians demonstrating ONE way it COULD be done via trickery actually mean the healers do things by trickery. ----- ummmm...because only a few early monkeys evolved...or needed to. The changes necessary to cause mutation are *random*, and do not happen ----- If you believe that; I have a bridge to sell you. ----- to every individual! Same reason you can put a snake on an island and come back in a million years and find a very different snake with different adaptations. ----- BUT it would STILL be a snake! I already said that I believe in micro evolution (to adapt to one's environment). Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Bill D Date: 10 Mar 04 - 05:48 PM "He has treated more than 11 million people in the last 30+ years." ...that's 1000 people a day, 7 days a week, even IF he is different from the frauds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Bill D Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:09 PM "If you believe that; I have a bridge to sell you." This is not a matter of belief anymore...or shouldn't be. The mechanisms of evolution have been worked out and tested and are accepted and studied widely now. DNA is showing us more & more detail of what the exact links were. What you call "macro evolution" is only a longer and more complex example of 'micro'....2 billion years ago, there NO species to speak of. 135 million years ago, there were almost no species after the Permian destruction (95% of everything was destroyed). 65 million years ago, 80% of the species that evolved AFTER the Permian destruction were destroyed. (The death of the dinosaurs)...Then, 40-50 thousand years ago, most of OUR direct ancestors were culled by ice ages and other environmental problems down to probably only a few thousand individuals...the monkeys were, by that time, on an entirely different track. so...I hope you have a good deal on that bridge. I could use one to stay above the really deep stuff down here in the BS threads..*grin* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: *daylia* Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:20 PM You may find it hard to believe, but I would LOVE to be proved wrong...if I can have an explanation of how it works that doesn't rely on poetry and linguistic weaving to clarify the matter. You'd "LOVE to be proved wrong". Ah, now I see. You are insisting that others provide you with the elusive "explanation" you'd find acceptable. Why assume this stance? Because it not only creates ample opportunity to indulge your real passion, your true LOVE - the mental power struggle, that (endlessly futile) war of words, the "winning" and "losing", the "proving" or "being proved wrong"? Perhaps it also fuels a hope that ultimately, someone else might do your *required* spiritual *homework* for you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: GUEST,Boab Date: 11 Mar 04 - 02:06 AM Best thread ever!---Some wondrous philosophy--so many folks buoyed up by their own particular faith---so many credible definitions of Faith---and, most intriguing of all, I have been fascinated by the writings of "two-Bears"! And the rest of the world is missing all this---- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: *daylia* Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:15 AM Boab, I've known Two Bears for about 8 literally miracle-filled months now. I had the pleasure of attending his HUNA workshop in Atlanta with Little Hawk last Nov. TWo Bears is not only the most remarkable and compassionate man I have ever had the privilege of meeting, he is a bona-fide Master of several of the martial and energetic healing arts, a fine and generous teacher, a gifted psychic and a true friend. (He also plays the NA flute most entrancingling, and will give you 'phone concerts' on a moments notice!) If you like what he said here, you're absolutely gonna LOVE his website! "HUNA 101" gifts it's readers with the basics of HUNA (ancient Hawai'ian spiritual philosophy/psychology/energetic techniques). *WARNING* Putting the simple techniques found in HUNA 101 to practice in your daily life is VERY likely to change you permanently! You will discover how to master your own health and destiny, how to manifest your needs and desires, how to work in harmony with the subconscious and superconscious aspects of your mind to achieve your highest purposes and goals in life! You will begin to realize, in a most practical and and "provable" way, the sacredness and power of Who and What you really are! Now, if all this just fills anyone with the urge to run and hide, or maybe to sit safely on the sidelines and throw verbal potshots at him in an attempt to condemn, ridicule or discredit who he is, what he does and the truths he shares .... well, that's the most common "knee-jerk" reaction he encounters anyway. He deals successfully with it every day of his life, so don't worry - no matter what you say or do, he's just gonna go right ahead and love you anyway! Aloha nui loa, daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: *daylia* Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:20 AM Oops, thats He also plays the NA flute most entrancingly, not entrancingling. An "entrancingling" is what I become as I listen to him! ;-) daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Wolfgang Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:35 AM It is NOT a spurious argument. It is logical... Looking at the world and the vast number of things required to sustain life; I believe Earth, and the things on Earth are created. (Two Bears) You made me smile again: Do you believe it because it is logical or does it become logical because you believe it? Bill, your calculation is alright but the result is consistent with reports about De Deus: According to reports he treats up to 3000 people a day, making the blind see and paraplegics walk, and curing cancers and other illness. He does all this without medication of surgical invasions of the body. Three thousand a day and sometimes a day off to recover from the hard work. He can even make the blind see, I've read it on the internet! To which I would add that he rather makes some people, who in a physical sense can see, blind. That's why the word 'faith' in some contexts is preceded by the word 'blind'. Now back to an old argument from John H.: But science has shown to disprove its previous conclusions SO often that it should be obvious that, though scientific method is valid, the conclusions drawn from it are as fluid as faith and belief. (1) You seem to take self-correction as a reason to trust less in results from science. For me, it is completely different. I have much more trust in knowledge systems that change with new findings than in those that have been laid down centuries ago and are never changed. I never had much trust in authoritative teachings in my life and any gurus and masters I have met have always failed to impress me except for their combination of low knowledge with high confidence. (2) If you look back at the history of science in any field, you'll see that, on the one hand, what was measured nearly always came closer to a kind of asymptote, so the remaining error getting smaller each decade (nothing fluid like faith in that) and, on the other hand, that the changing theories were nearly always getting better at making prediction, even if the underlying principles could be vastly different. Newton's beautiful theory is wrong. Period. But the predictions it has made are for the usual speeds extremely close for all practical purposes. Einstein's theory makes better on target predictions for what happens to motion near big masses or at high speed. One day it most probably will be found to be wrong in what it assumes as the basic mechanism. But that doesn't make the predictions wrong. Sometimes scientists even make theories the mechanisms of which they already know to be wrong just because these theories make good predictions. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Amos Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:41 AM The issue of self-correction doesn't apply to the adherence to material proving methodologies, though, because of all the self-proving predictions, the most fundamental one is that materiality is the core nature behind all phenomena. This makes for pretty dismal psychology, but never mind; it's science. It takes very little observation to notice that live thought operates differently than particles, and must have rules of a different kind and caliber. But I see very little effort to explore this difference; the majority of scientific articles concerning thought or the mind are anchored firmly to the brain=mind=electrons model. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Two_bears Date: 11 Mar 04 - 11:44 AM "He has treated more than 11 million people in the last 30+ years." ...that's 1000 people a day, 7 days a week, even IF he is different from the frauds. ----- Congrats for doing the math. Over 1000 people ARE treated a day. Joao does some surgeries, then there are several current rooms where the assorted entities do invisible surgeries, then the people return home and have tests, and the cancer is completely gone. Xrays before and after the visit to the House of Dom Ignatius. You forgot to comment about the 139 documented cures from AIDS. What are you afraid of? Joao has a 30 year HISTORY; scientiests need only go there and tape it and check for signs of trickery. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Two_bears Date: 11 Mar 04 - 11:50 AM so...I hope you have a good deal on that bridge. I could use one to stay above the really deep stuff down here in the BS threads..*grin* ----- I have a great deal on that bridge; but it is no longer for sale because you are not interested in truth, and proving it to yourself. you are not interested in learning the truth. You have my pity. I will not waste any more time on your unenlightened condition. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Two_bears Date: 11 Mar 04 - 12:01 PM Bill, your calculation is alright but the result is consistent with reports about De Deus: According to reports he treats up to 3000 people a day, making the blind see and paraplegics walk, and curing cancers and other illness. He does all this without medication of surgical invasions of the body. ----- You're wrong. He prescribes herbs. I know because my friend took the herbs for about 2 months after she returned from Brazil. The entities do MANY of the invisible surgeries as you described; but there are also MANY physical surgeries as I described earlier. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Wolfgang Date: 11 Mar 04 - 12:11 PM You're wrong (Two Bear) No, they are wrong. I have only cited from a pro-De Deus site. That's why that part was in italics. That's also well know. The believers contradict each other about what their experiences tell them what is true. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: *daylia* Date: 11 Mar 04 - 02:24 PM Perhaps the writers do not include herbal supplements, but only standard pharmaceutical drugs in their use of the word "medication"? It could be as simple as that. Gotta love words ;-) That's also well know. The believers contradict each other about what their experiences tell them what is true. Wolfgang, energetic healing has very little, if anything, to do with "beliefs" of any kind. Do you have to "believe" in the electricity coming out of your wall sockets for it to work? No, you only need only install the necessary apparatus in your home, connect it with your Power company, pay your bills and presto! You're the Light of the World! ;-) People's experiences of spiritual/energetic healing are as unique as they are. The experience is custom-made, precisely "Hand-crafted" to fit their personal needs at the time. That their reports vary is only to be expected. Those differences do not make the reports, or the outcomes of the healing work "contradictory". daylia PS Two Bears, what did the White Bear say to the Black Bear? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Bill D Date: 11 Mar 04 - 02:55 PM ?? "you are not interested in truth, and proving it to yourself. you are not interested in learning the truth. You have my pity. I will not waste any more time on your unenlightened condition." well, goodness!... My notes about what is KNOWN about evolution didn't seem to make much impression...or entirely the wrong impression. ....'learning' the truth, or being told what the truth is, and expected to absorb it on faith? I said above that I would read more about what you say on these matters, but I did NOT agree to 'enlightenment' on someone else's terms. Pity me then, if that's your reaction to an honest attempt to TRADE ideas, not just swallow ideas. (You know, that's approximately the reaction I got from the local Jehovah's Witnesses when I replied that I didn't think I'd like living in the type of Heaven and under the rules they described) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Amos Date: 11 Mar 04 - 03:12 PM Bill: Yeah, but the JW's didn't want to offer you a barred F chord, now did they? "Enlightenment on somebody else's terms" is an oxymoron of the first order, as you are clearly aware! :>)) Keep truckin', dude. It will hit on your own terms when it hits. Of that there is no doubt. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: *daylia* Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:08 PM well, goodness!... My notes about what is KNOWN about evolution didn't seem to make much impression...or entirely the wrong impression Please correct me if the scholarly situation has advanced considerably in the last few years or so (since I studied biology etc) -- but since when has Evolution been promoted from the lowly rank of scientific "theory" to a "fact"? From the shakey realm of "hypothesis" to that of true "knowledge" - which can be gleaned only through direct first-hand experience? (At least, that's how I differentiate between "knowledge" and either scientific "hypothesis" or religious "faith"). Your notes re the specifics of current evolutionary hypothesis and theory are interesting, but they are neither statements of "fact" or "truth", Bill. Nor are they compelling evidence for the "random mutation" theory about the origins of the universe/source of life. Hmmm, maybe a better name for that idea would be the "Randomly Mutated Theory of Universally Chaotic Atomic Ordering and Sporadic Episodes of Life-Engenderment", or something of that Nature? ;) daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:26 PM Every incarnated soul dearly loves its own chosen way of seeing and dealing with reality. That it should find discomfort in another soul's seeing reality differently is unfortunate. It indicates some form of insecurity. Have respect for other's experiences and viewpoints and it will get you farther than scoring points in a competitive mental exercise meant to prove you are "right" and they are "wrong". I have always respected science and seen value in it. Only while still a teenager, however, did I allow that respect for science to make me prejudiced against other matters which lay (at least for the time being) beyond the conventional parameters of the scientific world. I am not under the impression that everyone else is obliged to believe in what I believe in, nor am I under the impression that my beliefs are the only ones that are valid. They just happen to suit me, that's all. That's my business. The Unamazing Randi is a zealot...rather like a Jehovah's witness in his crusading zeal...he will not be content until he has converted everyone else to think the way he does. Ergo, he will never be content. That's a silly and unhelpful attitude, indicative of a form of psychological illness, in my opinion. It's also a gross form of narcissism. Grow up, Unamazing Randi. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Two_bears Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:34 PM /iThat's also well know. The believers contradict each other about what their experiences tell them what is true./i ----- Wolfgang: What happens when 10 people view the same accident? there are different points of view in just 10 minutes after the accident. What do you expect to happen with 11 million people treated over more than 30 years? Furthermore; these 11 million are NOT reporting the same healing. Each healings is individual. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Faith From: Two_bears Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:54 PM well, goodness!... My notes about what is KNOWN about evolution didn't seem to make much impression...or entirely the wrong impression. ----- Evolution is a theory not fact. Can you explain the slab of sedimentary rock with both dinosaur prints, and a human being wearing shoes made from leather and sewn together. This allegedly happende many millions of years before bipeds developed. If science was honest; they would be open to discussing archeological evidence that refutes their beloved theory of evolution. If you cared to read forbiden archeology; you would know about that, the device that appears to function as a spark plug found inside a round rock believed to be a 500,000 year old geode, you would find out about elephant rock found in the south west states (Arizona, Utah, New Mexico, etc) The african elephant never lived on the North American continent, You would find out about the 1000 year old battery discovered in Iraq, and much much more. If the current bunch of scientists were to tell me it was noon; I wound insist on checking the position of the sun. ----- ....'learning' the truth, or being told what the truth is, and expected to absorb it on faith? I said above that I would read more about what you say on these matters, but I did NOT agree to 'enlightenment' on someone else's terms. Pity me then, if that's ----- I NEVER asked you to absorb enlightenment on my terms or antone elses. I only suggested that you test what I offered then after a fair trial; either prove or disprove it to yourself. Daylia; the white bear said to the black bear "why stand there ready to fight when you can smell the roses and take it easy." Two Bears |
