BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?

Subject: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 09:57 AM

I'm starting this thread because arguments, very occasionally rising to the level of discussions, are currently overwhelming another thread about the British Labour Party. I am hoping that some at least of those busily exchanging opinions (and insults) relating to this might choose to carry them on here rather than in that thread.

The central point at dispute is that how far it is possible to criticise the State of Israel without this feeding into hostility towards the Jewish people and their culture and religion, amounting to antisemitism.

At present there is a wave of accusations directed at people within the Labour tradition who are stringly critical of Israel that this amounts to antisemitism, and that they should be purged from Labour. The basis for this is that Jews generally, wherever they live, feel a strong sense of solidarity with Israel, and therefore attacks on Israel are experienced as attacks on them. (Jews who do not react in this way are liable to be desribed as a special variety of antisemite, "self-hating Jews").

The question arises, since there are many diasporas where people with ethnic connections scattered around the world feel strong attachments to a far away country, how is it that it is only in the case of Members of the Jewish diaspora that it is felt that criticism of the far away country is rightly interpreted as hostility to its sons and daughters elsewhere?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 10:20 AM

Natan Sharansky: Recognizing the "New Anti-Semitism"

Moreover, the so-called "new anti-Semitism" poses a unique challenge. Whereas classical anti-Semitism is aimed at the Jewish people or the Jewish religion, "new anti-Semitism" is aimed at the Jewish state. Since this anti-Semitism can hide behind the veneer of legitimate criticism of Israel, it is more difficult to expose. Making the task even harder is that this hatred is advanced in the name of values most of us would consider unimpeachable, such as human rights.

Nevertheless, we must be clear and outspoken in exposing the new anti-Semitism. I believe that we can apply a simple test - I call it the "3D" test - to help us distinguish legitimate criticism of Israel from anti-Semitism.

The first "D" is the test of demonization. When the Jewish state is being demonized; when Israel's actions are blown out of all sensible proportion; when comparisons are made between Israelis and Nazis and between Palestinian refugee camps and Auschwitz - this is anti- Semitism, not legitimate criticism of Israel.

The second "D" is the test of double standards. When criticism of Israel is applied selectively; when Israel is singled out by the United Nations for human rights abuses while the behavior of known and major abusers, such as China, Iran, Cuba, and Syria, is ignored; when Israel's Magen David Adom, alone among the world's ambulance services, is denied admission to the International Red Cross - this is anti-Semitism.

The third "D" is the test of delegitimization: when Israel's fundamental right to exist is denied - alone among all peoples in the world - this too is anti-Semitism.


Jewish Political Studies Review 16:3-4 (Fall 2004)

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 10:21 AM

Yes, I read some of the stupidities on the Labour Party thread - and couldn't be arsed to participate.

I'm not going to participate further in this one - because I've no doubt it will eventually be as rancid as the other - but I'll make this one plain comment.

There is a clear distinction, in my view, between the actions of the government of a country, and the individuals within or without that country. The one is not the other, and there may be many thousands of people who form part of the nationals of that country who disagree to a greater or lesser extent with their government's policies. To criticise the government is therefore not to criticise, or be prejudiced against the whole of the people themselves. The two are distinct and separate.

My best friend of nearly 50 years standing - a fellow musician and our family solicitor - has been with us over the weekend. He regards the government of Israel as operating in a disgusting manner with regard to Palestine. He is Jewish; he is not an antisemite or a "self-hating Jew" - which is an equally disgusting term in my view and his.

End of my comment.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:03 AM

"There is a clear distinction, in my view, between the actions of the government of a country, and the individuals within or without that country. The one is not the other, and there may be many thousands of people who form part of the nationals of that country who disagree to a greater or lesser extent with their government's policies. To criticise the government is therefore not to criticise, or be prejudiced against the whole of the people themselves. The two are distinct and separate."

The opinions of individuals without the country, unless of course they still maintain and use voting rights in that country's elections are totally irrelevant - living as they do in peace and security elsewhere they have absolutely no stake in the matter.

The opinions of those who live in the country itself, provided that country is run on democratic lines, get the opportunity to vote and change their governments at regular intervals (Something that has been denied Palestinian voters for some time now). The electorate of Israel (Who on the other hand have never missed a single election since the country was founded) have democratically elected their current Government, so they therefore cannot distance themselves from the policies of the Government that they themselves elected.

The 15,000+ missiles that have been fired into Israel since they unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005, indiscriminately targeting the civilian population have not been fired at the Government of Israel, they have been fired with the express intention of killing the people of Israel and strange though it may seem to some on this forum it is the responsibility of the elected Government of Israel to ensure that that sort of behaviour is discouraged in the strongest possible manner.

The case of Israel and the Jewish people is unique. Anybody can make threats of annihilation against any other race or creed in this world and it would be laughed off as a sick joke. That can never be true of any such threat made to a Jew, because history shows there has been a precedent, and quite rightly the Jews take it very seriously, make a threat about annihilating the Jews - as all Israel's Arab neighbours have done repeatedly since 1948 - you bet they are not going to laugh that off or dismiss it - they will act on it and behave in such a manner as to make sure that it never has even the remotest chance of success. And guess what? They are acting and behaving completely and perfectly within their rights to do so.

I take it Will that your Jewish friend of 50 years lives here in the UK? He can opine whatever he wishes because should things go pear shaped he knows that he and his family will not have to pick up the tab. Israel is a sovereign state recognised by the United Nations - NO-ONE on this earth has the right to threaten it, or attack it. And those who do, or allow such attacks to mounted from their territory should fully accept the responsibility for any retaliatory action that results from those attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:03 AM

McGrath I have watch it grow there

Bobad, Excellent resource you have there


Will, Tribal blowback is ugly. No one wins.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:04 AM

Bringing in the Nazis as analogies or comparison is liable to happen in any heated discussion - that's why people talk of Godwin's Law - "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazism or Hitler approaches 1"[2][3]—​​that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism.

It doesn't just happen with Israel, it happened with South Africa, it happens in relation to Putin's Russia, Iran, the Vietnam War, and in all kinds of contexts, even relatively trivial contexts - people talk about "feminazis" or "the folk Gestapo.".

As for double standards, precisely the same criticism was made in the context of South Africa. The common factor is that in both case they were states which claimed to be part of the democratic world, and which were essentially colonial regimes.

As for the suggestion that Israel is the only country where its legitimacy as a state is questioned, this doesn't bear close examination. The legitimacy of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and North Ireland to continue to exist is challenged by those who favour Scottish Independence or Irish reunification. The legitimacy of the USSR was challenged by those who favoured its break up into successor state, and the legitimacy of the successor states is challenged by those who favour the reconstitution of a version of the USSR. There are other examples, all different
, all unique, as Israel is, but sharing the common element that there are those who believe those countries, as legal entities, ideally should not exist, and the inhabitants should have a different citizenship. In none of those cases would it be suggested that people holding such views were automatically hostile to emigrants from those countries, even where they did not share these views, or should be accused of such hostility even when they denied it.
..........
As for this thread. Years ago when I was hitching in Morocco I remember that wasps zooming around after sweet mint tea were a nuisance in outdoor restaurants - and I saw that how Moroccans dealt with that was not to try to swat the waspes, but instead to give them a glass of their own at the end of the table, full of sweetened tea and mint leaves.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:11 AM

"As for this thread. Years ago when I was hitching in Morocco I remember that wasps zooming around after sweet mint tea were a nuisance in outdoor restaurants - and I saw that how Moroccans dealt with that was not to try to swat the waspes, but instead to give them a glass of their own at the end of the table, full of sweetened tea and mint leaves." - MGOH

Which is precisely what the League of Nations did with the Mandated Territory of Palestine in 1923, the Arabs of the regions got 77% of it as "their Mint Tea" and all others, the "wasps" got the remaining 23%. Unfortunately the Arabs wanted it all - they still do.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:16 AM

Kevin,
The central point at dispute is that how far it is possible to criticise the State of Israel without this feeding into hostility towards the Jewish people and their culture and religion, amounting to antisemitism.

You keep making this point as if anyone disagrees with it.
They do not.
Of course it is OK to criticise any state, and Israel with its free media and opposition parties welcomes criticism.

None of the antisemitism identified within Labour have just been criticism of Israel. That would not be antisemitism and no-one would claim it was.

Will,
To criticise the government is therefore not to criticise, or be prejudiced against the whole of the people themselves. The two are distinct and separate.

Again, no-one here would disagree that point, so why make it?

kevin,
As for the suggestion that Israel is the only country where its legitimacy as a state is questioned, this doesn't bear close examination.

It is the only such country that is surrounded by enemies who have made frequent attempts to wipe it out.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:29 AM

Why, in the name of intelligence, do you people have to repeatedly and continuously enable the rancid bullshit of Bubo, The Professor and T-Bird?

Sheer Perversity? Masochism?

Do you REALLY want or need to see more of their shit smeared on the wall???

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:34 AM

What a nasty bit of bile Greg.
Better out than in as your mum probably said.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:34 AM

As I said, each case is unique. But that doesn't affect the issue - even believing that it would be better if a particular state did not exist as a state does not translate into being assumed to be hostile to people from that state, either inside it or scattered round the world.

Accusations of antisemitism are in fact frequently made purely on the basis of criticism of Israel, whether of policies and actions of its government or of its legitimacy as a state founded on ethnic cleansing.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:36 AM

"None of the antisemitism identified within Labour have just been criticism of Israel."
No antisemitism has been "identified" in the Labour party - it has been alluded to.
Until it is described and apportioned, it will remain the unsubstantiated accusation it is at present.
"Again, no-one here would disagree that point, so why make it?"
Because it is the crux of this argument
Will is quite right.
The Israelis have described all questioning of its political policies in regard to expansionism and Gaza as Antsemitism - it has even applied this to Israeli citizens and Jews living outside Israel

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:42 AM

Way to troll the Mudcat Wrecking Crew, McGrath.
Just another thread for them to get their OCD on in. (Yeah, I'm gone)

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 11:53 AM

Jeri beat me to it - now we have two stupid argument threads instead of one. Thanks, Kev [Not].

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 12:02 PM

Dead in the water. Belly-up. No point. All three trolls are gleefully present already, as was so predictable. Free speech in this topic Is impossible on this forum. There is on,y one answer, and that is to cut out the cancers. As that isn't going to happen, it's time to ignore these threads. That's me right now. Bye.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 12:45 PM

I take it Will that your Jewish friend of 50 years lives here in the UK? He can opine whatever he wishes because should things go pear shaped he knows that he and his family will not have to pick up the tab. Israel is a sovereign state recognised by the United Nations - NO-ONE on this earth has the right to threaten it, or attack it. And those who do, or allow such attacks to mounted from their territory should fully accept the responsibility for any retaliatory action that results from those attacks.

The confusion seems to arise from a basic distinction - which is not being made - between government and race. I can, for example, criticise the government of an African country to my heart's content, should I feel so inclined. This does not make me anti-black per se. I can equally criticise the government of Israel, should I feel so inclined - and this equally does not make me anti-semitic per se.

To accept the alternative definition - that anyone who criticises an African government must therefore commit the social crime of being anti-black, and anyone who criticises the Israeli government commits the social crime of being anti-semitic - is to say that these governments are beyond criticism. Which is patently monsense. It's not the race being criticised - it's the actions of government, regardless of race.

And that really is the end of my comment here, because I can't make it any plainer.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 01:13 PM

Many of you Europeans may simply assume the anti-Semitism you encounter or engage in your neck of the woods does not exist in the US in ways similar to what you may feel.

While it is true there are the fringe white supremacists and average bigots who need a reason to feel good about themselves there is not the overt animus that Europeans have.

No one here would ever imagine any harm to come to story tellers like Spielberg or our representatives like Bernie but I can't say the same of Wall St.. If anything the executive Jewish CEO's betray tenants of Judaism and main St. US by way of exporting jobs and wealth in the name of globalism. No different than most of the 1%.

Floyd Blankenstein, Gary Cohen, Steven Friedman are not exactly heros to faith or country except to other 1 percenters like Jamie Diamond and John G Stumpf who can be cast as traitors to Christian values

Perhaps America does not have to deal with the guilt Europeans must resolve somehow, or even face. Of course for those who deserve guilt .
Americans see themselves as liberators.
.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 01:29 PM

Jim,
No antisemitism has been "identified" in the Labour party - it has been alluded to

We have the statements of Livingstone, Shah and Wallace.
None were about Israel.

"Again, no-one here would disagree that point, so why make it?"
Because it is the crux of this argument
Will is quite right.

It is not "the crux of the argument" because no-one is arguing against it.
Of course Will is right, as is McGrath.
It is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, and no-one says it is.

The Israelis have described all questioning of its political policies in regard to expansionism and Gaza as Antsemitism

No they have not. If you have not just made that up, show us a quote.

Will,
I can equally criticise the government of Israel, should I feel so inclined - and this equally does not make me anti-semitic per se.

Of course not Will, but no-one is saying it does so what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 01:41 PM

comparing antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 01:45 PM

I think some of the quotes you have presented to us Keith do precisely what you say they don't do.

Moreover, even the suggestion that there are disagreements as to how antisemitism can be defined has in itself been attacked as being an antisemitic thing to say.

There's somethong of an Alice Through the Looking-glass thing going on - 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 01:59 PM

"We have the statements of Livingstone, Shah and Wallace."
None of which are Antisemitic
Even if they wer - that's three out of a quarter of a milliom - hardly a massive problem
You might find as man in my local in London
"It is not "the crux of the argument" because no-one is arguing against it."
Id criticism of Israel is "antisemitic" as stated by the Justcice inister - and virtually all Pro Israel regime supporters somebody certAIN;YT I

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 03:04 PM

Sorry - didn't mean to post that - done in a hurry.
Y'r 'tis again
We have the statements of Livingstone, Shah and Wallace."
None of which are Antisemitic
Even if they were - that's three out of a quarter of a million - hardly a massive problem
You might find as many in my local in London
"It is not "the crux of the argument" because no-one is arguing against it."
If criticism of Israel is "antisemitic" as stated by the Justice Minister - and virtually all Pro Israel regime supporters, somebody certainly is.
The very appointment of somebody who has called for the GENOCIDE of PALESTINIANS to such a position tends to implicate not just her but the whole lot of them.
This is how the press have presented this statement, I have no intention of arguing with you on the facts - you want to deny what she said, prove it - your denials without proof are what nauses up these discussions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 03:34 PM

Kevin,
I think some of the quotes you have presented to us Keith do precisely what you say they don't do.

Example please.

Accusations of antisemitism are in fact frequently made purely on the basis of criticism of Israel, whether of policies and actions of its government

Example please.

Jim,
"We have the statements of Livingstone, Shah and Wallace."
None of which are Antisemitic

In your opinion, but what is that worth?
All were suspended by the Party, and Livingstone still is.
Shah's antisemitism was recognised by the NEC, the Party leadership, Corbyn and Shah herself, but denied by you and Jim but what is that worth?.

Id criticism of Israel is "antisemitic" as stated by the Justcice inister -

She did not say that. She said that now it was unacceptable to attack Jews, antisemites now attack Israel instead.
Of course the do.
That does not mean that all who criticise Israel are antisemites.

hardly a massive problem

A "serious issue."

The very appointment of somebody who has called for the GENOCIDE of PALESTINIANS to such a position tends to implicate not just her but the whole lot of them.

It would, and it will if such a thing ever happens.
You really are making up shit again now Jim.

This is how the press have presented this statement,

If that is true, give an example.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 04:25 PM

a basic distinction - which is not being made - between government and race.

Jews are not a "race".

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 04:39 PM

But Ayalet Shaked is in fact Israeli Minister of Justice, Keith, and there seems to be convincing evidence that she did make that post which does genocide, and that in doing so she was indicating agreement with it.

I'm constantly reminded of another quote, which I've posted before: "As far as criticism is concerned, we don't resent that, unless it is absolutely biased - as it usually is." John Vorster, Prime Minuster of South Africa in Apartheid times.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 16 - 05:51 PM

The Professor will not be swayed by evidence, or for that matter, fact.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 04:29 AM

"In your opinion, but what is that worth?"
We are here to discuss opinions and produce facts Keith
I have produced both - you refuse even to tell us what the accusations of Antisemitism are and are totally relying on your own interpretation of the opinions of others.
Antismitism is the insulting, denigration and persecution of the Jewish People - where in any of this has any of these people ever done this?
You refuse to qualify your accusations by specifying them - then there is no case to answer.
What jury in Britain would ever deliver a guilty verdict on the basis of, "I don't actually know the nature of the crime committed but somebody told me it has been so it must be true?
This is the basis of your case and it is lynch-mob mentality.
You make your case by telling us what these people have done, not what people say they have done.
The fact that Livingstone is still under suspension its totally immaterial - he is not guilty until he has been found so.
A "serious issue."
If you think that three people who have been accused of antisemitism for criticising the Israeli government and have yet to be found guilty of the charge, out of a membership of a quarter of a million is "a serious issue", you are living on a different planet than the rest of us.
You continue to defend a statement of the Israeli Minister who claims that it is Antisemitic to criticise Israeli policy
She said what she said, you have had it put up numerous times, it has been interpreted a#by the world press exactly as I have described - the implications of what she said was the reason it hit the world headlines - yet you still deny it.
I really don't think we can go any further with this.
"It would, and it will if such a thing ever happens. You really are making up shit again now Jim."
You've deied making these claims Keith - now you are at it again.
This is old news
I do not "make things up", - nor do I expect an apology or a withdrawal from you.
Netanyahu appoints Ayelet Shaked—who called for genocide of Palestinians
Translation from the Washington Post
The leftist site Mondoweiss offers a full translation of Shaked's controversial posting, which quotes Elitzur, a former Netanyahu adviser, here. Some excerpts:
The Palestinian people has declared war on us, and we must respond with war. Not an operation, not a slow-moving one, not low-intensity, not controlled escalation, no destruction of terror infrastructure, no targeted killings. Enough with the oblique references. This is a war. Words have meanings. This is a war. It is not a war against terror, and not a war against extremists, and not even a war against the Palestinian Authority. These too are forms of avoiding reality. This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people. Why? Ask them, they started...
"Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. Actors in the war are those who incite in mosques, who write the murderous curricula for schools, who give shelter, who provide vehicles, and all those who honor and give them their moral support. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there."
"If that is true, give an example."
CRITICIZING ISRAEL IS THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 08:50 AM

See "Freedom of Speech" wins out again.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 03:03 PM

?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 03:10 PM

Well, the author of that piece advocating genocide of Palestinians evidently did have freedom of speech to make it, and the Israeli Minister of Justice did have freedom to post it online. Is that what Terbus meant by talking of a victory for free speech?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 03:32 PM

Kevin and Jim,
But Ayalet Shaked is in fact Israeli Minister of Justice, Keith, and there seems to be convincing evidence that she did make that post which does genocide

No there is not.
Ms Shaked protested that the quote had been mistranslated into English from Hebrew and insisted she was not calling for indiscriminate killing.
Even in the translation, she only refers to those who have given support to actual terrorists, not "all Palestinians."
Once again you swallow all anti-Israel propaganda without question.

Jim,
you refuse even to tell us what the accusations of Antisemitism are and are totally relying on your own interpretation of the opinions of others.

We all are Jim because Labour is keeping it secret, but numerous prominent Labour members and officials, including the entire NEC and even Chakrabarti all state that Labour has a serious problem with antisemitism.
We do know about about Shah's comments.
In yours and Steve's opinion they are not antisemitic, but her antisemitism was recognised by the NEC, the Party leadership, Corbyn and Shah herself, so what is your opinion worth?.

You continue to defend a statement of the Israeli Minister who claims that it is Antisemitic to criticise Israeli policy

No I do not, and I have repeatedly stated that it is not antisemitic.
The minister did not claim it was either.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 16 - 04:34 PM

Smear that funky feces white boy.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 02:30 AM

Q.E.D.

"feces" Greg F. - WTF????

Yet another insightful, informative and thought provoking post from Greg F.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 03:24 AM

"Ms Shaked protested that the quote had been mistranslated into English from Hebrew "
Oh - for crying out loud - not another ***** excuse for this vicious crowd?
Do you have any evidence for this apart from #denials from the regime.
Her blog, in which she put up an already long established, unchallenged and long deplored quote, was recognised for what it was and her appointment was condemned because she had made it.
The actual blog in Hebrew is fully available in the press untranslated.
You have gone to great lengths to smear British Labour party members on the basis of unsubstantiated accusations from politicians seeking to stop a boycott of Israel, yet you leap to the defence of somebody who has advocated the genocide of Arabs and has suggested that all criticism of Israel is Antisemitic.
No need to ask which side you are on Keith.
"You really are making up shit again now Jim."
I don't see and apology or a withdrawal of your accusation that I made this up - but that doesn't seem to be part of your make-up - and you wonder why people call you names?      
"We all are Jim because Labour is keeping it secret, "
So it is not just the Anti Semotes in the Labour Party, but the whole lot of them now?
THIS IS PROBABLY AS STUPIDLY PATHETIC AS IT GETS - IF THESE ACCUSATIONS HAVE ANY BASIS WHATEVER, WHY HAVEN'T THE ACCUSERS SUBSTANTIATED THEM BY TELLING US WHAT THEY ARE - THE PRESS WOULD LOVE TO PUBLISH WORD-FOR-WORD ACCOUNTS OF LABOUR PARTY MEMBERS ATTACKING THE JEWISH PEOPLE - CORBYN WOULD NOT HAVE STOOD A CHANCE IF THEY HAD
No attack on the Jewish People by Labour Party members have ever come to light - I'm sure if they had, you would have been the first to put them up.
Your arguments, both in favour of the Israeli regime and your hatred of The Labour Party have now become one of high farce.
Just when I thought things couldn't become more entertaining!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 03:48 AM

Shaked isn't on her own, of course
Maybe another "mistranslation - waddya thing?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 04:31 AM

And "Genocide" was mentioned in that article where Jim?

As the article stated ISIS have been beheading those they consider to be "disloyal Arabs" for years now - can you show us where you have complained in one of your multi-coloured, upper case, spittle-flecked rants about the physical act of "disloyal Arabs" being beheaded as opposed to some Israeli nationalist politician merely talking about it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 04:45 AM

Unlike its neighbours, Israel does not do capital punishment.
Even terrorist killers are not executed, and they often do not even complete their sentences. If Hamas captures an Israeli they are all released.

The actual blog in Hebrew is fully available in the press untranslated.

Then why did Washington Post have to use the anti Israel Mondoweiss translation?

IF THESE ACCUSATIONS HAVE ANY BASIS WHATEVER, WHY HAVEN'T THE ACCUSERS SUBSTANTIATED THEM BY TELLING US WHAT THEY ARE

Because the accusers are Labour supporters who want it dealt with within the Party they have loyally supported all their adult lives.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 05:11 AM

"Because the accusers are Labour supporters who want it dealt with within the Party they have loyally supported all their adult lives."
So even the Jews in the Labour Party are liars who are prepared to appease Antisemitism by covering it up
YOU REALLY COULD NOT MAKE THIS UP!!!
As far as "Genocide Jenny", the Isaraeli Minister is concerned, she is the only one to have claimed mistranslation
The Hebrew version is available for anybody to translate.
So you really think the world is devoid of people who can't read Hebrew.
The bloody woman removed her blog as soon as it was brought to notice - if it was a "mistranslation", why not leave it up to prove that fact.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 05:33 AM

"And "Genocide" was mentioned in that article where Jim?"
It is implicit in her statement and has been recognised as such
Read what she said.
I assume you are not claiming it is a mistranslation if you are questioning the wording?
You pair need a site meeting to plan strategy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 05:34 AM

So even the Jews in the Labour Party are liars who are prepared to appease Antisemitism by covering it up

I do not believe they are lying.
I also believe they want it dealt within the Party to which they have devoted most of their lives.

The bloody woman removed her blog as soon as it was brought to notice - if it was a "mistranslation", why not leave it up to prove that fact.

It was not even her words.
She posted it in the immediate aftermath of a terrorist atrocity that had brought shock and outrage to the whole country.
Three schoolkids were kidnapped on their way home and butchered by Hamas.
The post called for those who aid the terrorists to be treated as terrorists themselves. She withdrew it when her outrage subsided.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 05:39 AM

"And "Genocide" was mentioned in that article where Jim?"
It is implicit in her statement

It is not.

and has been recognised as such

By whom Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 05:53 AM

Not an operation, not a slow-moving one, not low-intensity, not controlled escalation, no destruction of terror infrastructure, no targeted killings……
This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people. Why? Ask them, they started……
war is not the normal state of things, and that in wars the enemy is usually an entire people, including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure……
…..because the enemy soldiers hide out among the population, and it is only through its support that they can fight. Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. Actors in the war are those who incite in mosques, who write the murderous curricula for schools, who give shelter, who provide vehicles, and all those who honor and give them their moral support. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there……"

All of which equals genocide.
Given the other Minister's quote, (so far ignored, but I have little doubt that there is a "mistranslation on the way), slaughtering Arabs who are "disloyal" to Israel, seems to be endemic to this vicious regime.
"I do not believe they are lying."
You've just said they are - by refusing to specify what Antisemitism is taking place in the Labour party
"It was not even her words."
She blogged it, even though it had never been published - even worse.
She made public a statement which was considered unpublishable.
It was originally made by the Head of the Settlers, who was also a senior advisor to the Israeli Government, which implicates the whole ***** lot of them.
"The post called for those who aid the terrorists"
The post specifically states that response should be indiscriminate
Not an operation, not a slow-moving one, not low-intensity, not controlled escalation, no destruction of terror infrastructure, no targeted killings……
This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people.
Now we appear to be moving on from "mistranslation" to she didn't mean what she said.
Make up your ***** mind
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 07:36 AM

By the way
This conversation is now ended until you have the good grace to withdraw your accusation of my making things up and you apologise for it.
I'm fed up to the back teeth with these unjustified slanderous lies which always happen when you are presented with facts you can't handle.
You are the first to whinge when people insult you, yet your behaviour is permanently insultingly dishonest to thosse who disagree with you.
You are a fine example of a pro Israeli sycophant
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 11:42 AM

The words were not hers, were quoted at a time of horror and outrage at an atrocity involving the murder of kids in cold blood, and does not advocate "genocide" anyway.

I will be happy to discuss this further if you start or reopen an Israel thread, but this is about antisemitism.

Why do you always turn any discussion into anti-Israel propaganda?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 11:52 AM

Jim Carroll - 11 Oct 16 - 03:48 AM

The link you supplied does not contain the word "genocide" let alone make any reference to it.

Now Jim where is your multi-coloured, upper case, spittle-flecked rant about the physical act of "disloyal Arabs" being beheaded by their fellow Arabs in the Middle-East.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 01:42 PM

Does anyone ever describe actions they are supporting as genocide?

Note the continuing efforts of the Turkish government to deny that the 1915 massacre of the Armenians amounted to genocide. A genocide that was cited by Hitler as an example of what a state can get away with doing. Though of course, even if the word had been invented at the time, it is pretty unlikely Hitler would ever have used it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 01:43 PM

Why do you always turn any discussion into anti-Israel propaganda?

Smear that funky feces right.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 16 - 01:55 PM

"The link you supplied does not contain the word "genocide" let alone make any reference to it.
"You've had the wording of the blog.
Taking revenge in the entire population for the actions of fighters and compounding that with "This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people" amounts to Genocide (def. the mass extermination of human beings, esp. of a particular race or nation").
Are you really going to defend this statement on a quibbling point of semantics, as you attempted to in the case of the massacre of refugees at Sabra Shatila - surely not??
It really is about time you moved away from your apparently "John and Jane" level of literacy
"The words were not hers, were quoted at a time of horror and outrage"
So - all the killings done by the Palestinians were done ar a time when they were being persecuted, terrorised, murdered and made homeless by the Israelis - would you excuse them?
Sure you would.
Do you realise how much you've added to the entertainment here by your shift from my making it up, to "mistranslation" ad now actually defending this filth?
And yet more "thread drift" on a topic you have ben happy to participate in until you find yourself in the klarts
You are predictable enough to be downright boring
You really are a piece of work Keith - and still no apology or retraction.
Takes all sorts, I suppose.
Have a good night now - d'y'all hear?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 03:58 AM

There is no question of a genocide of Israeli Arabs.
They have full citizenship rights and Israel, unlike its neighbours, does not even have capital punishment.

Why are we taliking about Israel again?
As you keep saying, antisemitism is not linked to anti-Israelism.

You tried to make both Labour Party threads about Israel, and now you are trying the same trolling with this one.
The subject is the meaning of antisemitism.
No-one here is arguing that it is antisemitic to criticise Israel, so please drop it.

I would enjoy another Israel debate, but only on an Israel thread.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 04:50 AM

"They have full citizenship rights and Israel, unlike its neighbours, does not even have capital punishment."
On paper at least - in practice, that is not the case - you have been given the Inequality Report several times, and just as ever bunch of facts that sporlight what is happening in Israel, you choose to ignore it.
If the two ministers have their way, that would expand into the legalised killing of Arabs.
"As you keep saying, antisemitism is not linked to anti-Israelism."
Israel has chosen to target Britain by accusing an British political party of anitisemitism - you have supported them doing so by joining in with those accusations.
You have new even gone so far as to accuse British Jews in the Labour Party of covering up antisemitism for the sake of the Party.
That is why we are discussing Israel.
If you care to read Mac's OP, you will see that he mentions Israel four times, Bobad immediately responded with nine mentions, then Terribus with eight.
You were a bit slow off the mark and let Will Fly in before you, but then you entered the fray with four mentions.
You were happy to defend Israel to your heart's content when the ball was at your feet - now it's been taken away, you cry "foul"
Stop interfering with the democracy of this forum, yet again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 05:10 AM

If the two ministers have their way, that would expand into the legalised killing of Arabs.

Bollocks.

Israel has chosen to target Britain by accusing an British political party of anitisemitism

More bollocks. Of course they will be critical of antisemitism anywhere, but there is no conspiracy.

You have new even gone so far as to accuse British Jews in the Labour Party of covering up antisemitism for the sake of the Party.

They want to keep it within the Party they love, yes.
It has all been reported to the leadership, and the leadership has chosen to keep the details secret.

If you care to read Mac's OP, you will see that he mentions Israel four times,

Yes, but only to make the point that it is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, which no-one disputes anyway.

It is you on all three threads that has tried to make it about Israel.
You are obsessed!

You were happy to defend Israel to your heart's content when the ball was at your feet

No. I have objected on all three threads to your attempt to make them all just more threads about Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 05:14 AM

" Israel, unlike its neighbours, does not even have capital punishment."

Thousands of innocent civilian families in Gaza and Lebanon would take very little comfort from that, and there seems to be no lower age limit for the killings either. Of course, the country that provides the money for Israel's military power shows no compunction in putting people to death. I'd say that yours is a point definitely not well made.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 05:24 AM

Thousands of innocent families in Gaza must wish that their regime would stop provoking Israel with attempts at the mass murder of Jewish civilians.
Israel has a right and a responsibility to take action against those attempted war crimes.

Likewise in Lebanon TEN YEARS AGO NOW!
Wiki, "The conflict was precipitated by the Zar'it-Shtula incident. On 12 July 2006, Hezbollah fighters fired rockets at Israeli border towns"

This thread is not about Israel and Middle East history Steve.
It is about anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 06:06 AM

"They want to keep it within the Party they love, yes. "
So they make the accusations of Antisemitism then cover it up - a poor view you seem to hold about Jewish people and their honesty - and their intelligence.
It is as I have always said, you have not the slightest interest in the Jewish People - your concern is to defend the extremist right wing Israeli regime who, in implicating the Jewish People as a whole in their crimes and human rights abuses, are as antisemitic as any other Jew haters on this planet.
They have this quite plain by questioning the validity of all Jewish people who disagree with their political behaviour - "Self-hating Jews" - which, by definition, is classic fascism - the state overriding even the cultural ethnicity of the individual
Your denials of Israeli behaviour are all duly noted and will be filed in the same dustbin as the thousands of others you have made.
A piece of advice - never attempt to manipulate the democracy of this forum again when you are not getting your way unless you wish to continue to appear the fanatic that you already are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 06:26 AM

Well, Keith, I merely responded to a point made by you directly about Israel in your post of 03.58am. So what are you burbling on about now? You've already been asked to desist from trying to manipulate the content of the thread to your own ends. Who do you think you are, King Mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 08:47 AM

Globally, we are witnessing a new, sophisticated, virulent, and even lethal anti-Semitism, reminiscent of the atmospherics of the 1930s, and without parallel or precedent since the end of the Second World War.

This phenomenon overlaps with classical anti-Semitism but is distinguishable from it. While classical anti-Semitism is the discrimination against, denial of, or assault upon the rights of Jews as people to live as equal members of whatever society they inhabit, the new anti-Semitism involves the discrimination against, denial of, or assault upon the right of the Jewish people to live as an equal member of the international community, with the state of Israel as the targeted collective Jew among the nations.

Let me be clear: Israel should not be afforded special treatment, and criticism of Israeli policies or actions does not, in itself, constitute anti-Semitism. What I am referring to is the singling out of Israel for discriminatory treatment, and the denial of Israel's legitimacy as a Jewish state.

Rise of the new anti-Semitism

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 09:14 AM

Smear that funky feces, white boy.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 10:23 AM

Jim,
So they make the accusations of Antisemitism then cover it up

No. They report the antisemitism, and the leadership covers it up.

They have this quite plain by questioning the validity of all Jewish people who disagree with their political behaviour - "Self-hating Jews" -

Except that they don't and never have.
They have a free media which is overwhelmingly Jewish and that criticises them every day.
They have opposition parties, again mostly Jewish, whose job is to criticise them, so your accusation is false.

Steve, this thread really is about "anti-semitism" not Israel.
Read the title.
The other two threads were about the Labour Party, not Israel.
Read the titles.
In my 3.58 post I responded to some absurd anti-Israel propaganda, but I also pointed out that it had no place in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 10:54 AM

"No. They report the antisemitism, and the leadership covers it up."
Then what is stopping them from going public?
You've just said that they do it because they love the Party - presumably more than they love their fellow Jews
""They want to keep it within the Party they love, yes. "
Are you seriously suggesting that they are being prevented by the Party Leadership from speaking out' do you have evidence for this insane theory?
Stupid, stupid, stupid - beyond words.
"Except that they don't and never have."
You've had the evidence Keith - disprove it.
You really are.... words fail me!!
But you are giving my arguments a great deal of support by showing the veracity of Israeli support!!!!
Once again - your denials will be placed in the appropriate receptacle
PLEASE STOP INTERFERING WITH THE FREEDOM OF PEOPLE POSTING TO THIS THREAD - YOU HAVE MADE AROUND A DOZEN POSTINGS TO THIS THREAD MENTIONING ISRAEL, NOW YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO PREVENT OTHERS FROM DOING SO
IS THERE AN ADJUDICATOR IN THE HOUSE?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 12:03 PM

Jim, anti-semitism within Labour has been attested to by numerous members and officials including the entire NEC, Corbyn and Chakrabarti.
What evidence do you have that they are all lying, and why would they?

We know what some of it is, but what they do not choose to tell us I can not tell you!
OK?

"Except that they don't and never have."
You've had the evidence Keith - disprove it.

They are an open democracy and anyone is free to criticise them.
Haaretz journalists do not get locked up like Turkish, Egyptian,....

PLEASE STOP INTERFERING WITH THE FREEDOM OF PEOPLE POSTING TO THIS THREAD -

Errr, how would I do that? I am just a member not a mod.

YOU HAVE MADE AROUND A DOZEN POSTINGS TO THIS THREAD MENTIONING ISRAEL,

Yes I have demolished some of your ludicrous, anti-Israel propaganda.
I have only responded to you.

MENTIONING ISRAEL, NOW YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO PREVENT OTHERS FROM DOING SO

Again, how could I prevent anyone from doing anything.

I just remind them what the thread is about, and what it is not.

It is about anti-semitism.
It is not about Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 12:10 PM

This is where the third phase of anti-Semitism arises, which for want of a better term we might call political-cum-ideological Judeophobia. Race? Oh no, we wouldn't have anything to do with that. Religious prejudice? Oh no, we're far beyond that. This is political and ideological, and it provides a socially and intellectually acceptable modern disguise for sentiments that go back some 2,000 years.

Bernard Lewis

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 12:32 PM

"Jim, anti-semitism within Labour has been attested to by numerous members"y
I'm afraid that, until somebody actually puts a face to that accusation, it really doesn't exist - it is no more than an accusation - not just natural justice but simple logic
Describe it and you have a case - don't and you haven't
You have now described Jewish People in the Labour party as being hypocritical idiots who put P\arty Politics before their own people - any advance on that one?
"What evidence do you have that they are all lying, and why would they?"
The fact that they, nor you, have attempted you have attempted to describe that antisemitism - so far, it amounts to criticism of Israel, which is not antisemitism
Yu are openly lying about Corbyn, the NEC and Chakrabati - they have all claimed there to
Israeli democracy - More denials - same dustbin
be no serious problem.
"We know what some of it is"
Then you tell is what it is.
"Again, how could I prevent anyone from doing anything."
You can't - but you are thick enough to keep tr00ying
"It is about anti-semitism.
It is not about Israel."
See what I mean
Rearrange these words into a well-known phrase or saying -Off Keith Fuck
And take your hate spouting racist/Antisemitic friend with you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 12:46 PM

Interesting article you posted, Bodad.

I just sent this off to my local paper. Note that the person being attacked is not Jewish but is receiving antisemitic attacks. Clearly, you don't have to be Jewish to be attacked by anti-Semites. The political atmosphere here in the US is getting more and more toxic.

To the editor:

It is Yom Kippur and, for the second time during the High Holy Days, I am disappointed in my local rabbi. Last night, I approached him and told him that a local candidate for the House of Representatives, Peter Jacob, had been subjected to one blatantly racist and two anti-Semitic attacks within the past week. His campaign manager had told me that he had contacted the rabbi and asked him to make a statement about this. He says he was refused. The rabbi says that he had not heard of this. His next question surprised me: "Is he Jewish?" Mr. Jacob is Orthodox Christian but the question is irrelevant. These attacks threaten all of us, not just Mr. Jacob. They are a symptom of the increasingly overt intolerance for anyone who is different, such as Jews, Muslims, anyone with dark skin and anyone from Asia. Make no mistake, we are on the list.

As it says in the Yom Kippur service, in every generation enemies rise up to attack us. How can we not speak out against these enemies. Should we sit in silence and hope they will go away? They won't. Should we appeal to their nonexistent better nature? They have none. The totalitarian spirit that gave rise to the Nazis is always among us.

It is present on the left as well as on the right. How many have heard that Black Lives Matter and other progressive groups support BDS because "the Palestinian brothers are suffering under Zionist Israeli occupation." Many progressive groups refuse to allow Jews to participate in worthwhile causes unless they disavow Israel and Zionism. This is especially common on college campuses.

We are being isolated as part of a larger effort. We cannot accept this and must act against the inherent antisemitism of these attacks. Let us all examine our souls and make it clear that an injury or insult to one of us is an injury to all of us.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 12:57 PM

Well said, EBarnacle.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:01 PM

Keith, if you want this thread to not be about Israel, there is something you have to stop doing. You have to stop rattling on about Israel, telling us straight after you've done that that it isn't about Israel. You're trying to have the last word. You've done that three times in the last 24 hours. It's laughable, Keith.

Unfortunately, and I know it makes you feel uncomfortable (because we know from your long track record that you think that criticism of Israel is antisemitic even though you keep telling us that you don't think it), a discussion of antisemitism in the present context is not possible without bringing Israel, or at least the regime and its supporters, into it. The strongest voices condemning criticism of Israeli policy and claiming that we're deliberately confusing anti-Zionism with antisemitism are coming out of Israel. Much of the controversy over what is and what isn't antisemitism is coming either from Israel or elements of the pro-Israel lobby (including, in the UK, Labour Friends of Israel, for example). That is for you in your discomfort to address and it is not for you to keep trying to shut us up about Israel all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:06 PM

Apropos of your post EBarnacle, it is worthy of note that in the US and Canada (and I am pretty sure in Europe as well though I don't have those statistics at hand) hate crimes directed at Jews make up more than half of the total number of hate crimes directed at all other religions combined.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:15 PM

How many have heard that Black Lives Matter and other progressive groups support BDS because "the Palestinian brothers are suffering under Zionist Israeli occupation."

Source of your quote, please. Not that I disagree with the sentiment - I don't - but you should be able to back this with some context.

Many progressive groups refuse to allow Jews to participate in worthwhile causes unless they disavow Israel and Zionism. This is especially common on college campuses.

If this is true it's very disturbing. If you say that it's common, as opposed to its being just the odd sporadic incident, I should like to hear of some examples of where it's happening, what worthwhile causes the Jews are being excluded from and what precisely is being said to the Jewish victims in question.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:16 PM

"Religions?"

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:21 PM

Yes, but only to make the point that it is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, which no-one disputes anyway.

The trouble is, the last part of that sentence isn't actually coorect.

The basis of the confusion is that it is of course true that there are antisemites who do criticise Israel, and whose criticism is founded on hostility to Jews.

There is also a secondary kind of attitude that can be accused of being antisemitic where criticism of Israel potentially leads to hostility towards those who support Israel. If the assumption is made that all Jews everywhere support Israel, that encourages this development. In fact of course that assumption is not true, though it is an assumption encouraged by many Israeli voices. (And even if it were true, the hostility towards those who support Israel would not be justified.)

Inevitably, in a bitter conflict these kind of spreading hatreds arise. It happens in all wars. Palestinians, especially those who have lost family, are likely to feel hatred towards all Israelis, and indeed all Jews. Israelis who have lost family will likely feel hatred towards all Palestinians, and indeed all Arabs, or all Muslims. And it can spread to those outsiders who feel close attachment to those directly involved.

I'd question whether there are many, if any, among Labour supporters who feel any kind of hatred towards Jews as such, or against Muslims as such. There probably are some who feel hostility towards those who are seen as unfairly supportive of Israel, or of Palestine. And that can be seen as anti-semitism, or it's twin, islamophobia.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:27 PM

I cannot give you exact citations on either statement but I believe that if you look in the NY Times about a week ago, key in Brown University and Jewish students you should come up with the second statement. The first has been around for quite a while.
I apologize for the inability.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 01:30 PM

1. We have been over the establishment of Israel many many times. In 1923 and 1947/8 people who had no right to do so awarded land to people who had long ago abandoned that land and had no right to be there. It is too late now to fix that mistake and a solution that accommodates (even if not necessarily satisfies) both the Palestinians and Israel.

2. It is very silly to argue that Israel does not have the death penalty. Count how many Palestinians Israel has killed and how many Israelis Palestine has killed.

3. As Jackie Walker has correctly said, there is no satisfactory and accepted definition of anti-Semitism - and the extraordinarily expansionist posts above show why. They go even further than the now discredited EUMC definition that I gather was attempted to be thrust down throats at the JLM training session where Jackie Walker was stitched up.

4. The extreme racism directed against Jackie Walker can be found on almost every page discussing her current suspension and her demotion within Momentum - some are simply over-wrought othodoxy (the sort of post that asserts that she cannot be Jewish because her father rather than her mother was Jewish even though she had other ascendant female Jewish ancestors on her mother's side - but some go much further even than the assertion that she cannot be Jewish because she is black and descend to the sort of blakcup and chimpanzee posts that the US right wing present about the Obamas.

5. Buggerit I came here to talk about capos, and I have been seduced by right-wing trolls.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 02:21 PM

Richard, your use of the word "abandoned" does not reflect reality. The Jews living in the Diaspora [Dispersion] were not allowed to live in the then Palestine territory of the Ottoman Empire. The owners of the land were the Ottomans.
Unpalatable as it is to many, the vast majority of the people living there were tenant farmers until the land was sold from under them. Much of the land in Judea and Samaria was purchased the same way but will undoubtedly be surrendered if there is ever an accommodation between the parties.
There will never be an accommodation unless the Palestinians accept the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, just as all the land they control exists as Muslim states.
Repeat after me: "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem . . ."

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 02:59 PM

Fascinating.

Its apparently OK to repeatedly slander all and sundry with false accusations of anti-semitism, but point out this slander and/or object to it and the post miraculously evaporates into thin air.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 03:04 PM

I cannot give you exact citations on either statement

If you can't substantiate your claims, you shouldn't have posted rumor & innuendo.

Or are you channelling Bubo?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 04:34 PM

Greg, do your own research. Go to Black Lives Matter and cross link it with BDS. Go to the New York Times and follow the lead I suggested above.

I am part of a major educational union and have spent the past two years fighting off "Progressive" academics, some of them Jewish, who believe that Israel and its existence are to blame for all of the problems of the region and who have been attempting to push a BDS resolution through our Solidarity committee.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 04:45 PM

If you can't substantiate your claims, you shouldn't have posted rumor & innuendo.

Also, the BDS movement does not claim that "Israel and its existence are to blame for all of the problems of the region". Nor does Black Lives Matter.

But the government of Israel and its stiff-necked bullshit are absolutely responsible for SOME of the problems in the region.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 04:47 PM

It's very understandable the Ottomans would be cautious about foreigners from Western Europe moving into the Holy Land, Christian or Jewish. There was a history of Crusades, a whole series of wars over Turkish occupied Europe, and the whole process of expanding European Colonial Empires in every part of the world.

The idea that the purchase of land by a foreigner would imply a right to evict a tenant farmer would not have been seen favourably by the Ottoman authorities, as also would have been the case be in many parts of Europe. It underlay the turmoil of the Land League movement in Ireland, culminating in reforms that removed this right.

One thing that needs to be appreciated that there is a historical precedent for the establishment of Israel - the Crusader States established in what is now Israel and Lebanon existed for longer than Israel has, and are now merely historical memorie.
Consciousness of this underly and reinforce the feeling that Israel too is a temporary intrusion into the region.

Israel at present does have the possibility of reaching a two-state solution which would ensure the continued existence of a predominently Jewish state. But if that opportunity is not taken there is a real possibility that the experience of the Crusader States could be repeated.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 05:07 PM

Ah, Kevin, you old anti-semite, you ! ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 06:25 PM

He's not the only one.........unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 06:31 PM

Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 06:47 PM

Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 06:50 PM

Bubo, Lay down the bullshit and smear that funky feces till you die.

with apologies to Rob Parissi

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 07:37 PM

This pathetic lunatic has just called Kevin McGrath antisemitic. Of all the people who post here, Kevin is the one who tries, a damn sight harder than I do, to be fair, balanced and measured. Well that does it. This forum is now in terminal disrepute for allowing this sort of vicious nastiness to prevail under the banner of "free speech." In my view, the owner and moderators of this board are seriously remiss in allowing this person to carry on posting. Free speech my arse. Bobad is shitting on free speech more than anyone I've ever come across here. Shame on you, Mudcat, for tolerating his presence. You moan about usual suspects and the like. Well stop bloody moaning and get this bastard out of here, now.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 07:41 PM

Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 07:59 PM

Bubo, smear that funky feces, white boy.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 08:03 PM

Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 08:17 PM

McGrath, you are definitely correct. The Israelis only have to lose once and there will be a bloodbath. I think about the Horns of Hattin with some regularity and shudder. [For those who don't know about the Horns of Hattin, that was the battle which led to the crusader eviction from the Holy Land.]

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 01:42 AM

Richard Bridge - 12 Oct 16 - 01:30 PM

1. We have been over the establishment of Israel many many times. In 1923 and 1947/8 people who had no right to do so awarded land to people who had long ago abandoned that land and had no right to be there. It is too late now to fix that mistake and a solution that accommodates (even if not necessarily satisfies) both the Palestinians and Israel.

In 1923 and in 1947/48 the people who designated boundaries and proposed boundaries and "awarded land" as you incorrectly put it had as much right to do so as the previous rulers down through the centuries. The same right as those who decreed the borders of all states created in Europe after the First World War. By 1923 European Jews had been purchasing land in the region and settling it for almost 80 years, they were awarded nothing, they bought it and they rightly own it. As to your last sentence and your solution. That was offered in 1947 by the UN and it was rejected by the Arabs of the region. The PA now claims that they are "fighting" for a Two-State solution but they cannot show anybody any map that shows the borders of the Two States. They have not officially and publicly declared the right of the sovereign state of Israel to exist or the right of the people of Israel to exist in peace, free from attack or the threat of attack.

2. It is very silly to argue that Israel does not have the death penalty. Count how many Palestinians Israel has killed and how many Israelis Palestine has killed.

It is not silly at all Bridge, either the death penalty exists in the statute books of the State of Israeli or it does not. That is an easily established fact and we all know that it does not. As to counting things as you suggest:

- Count how many times threats of total annihilation have been made by the Arabs of the region against Israel, count how many times threats of total annihilation have been made by the Israelis against the Arabs of the region.

- Count the number of times the Arabs of the region have carried out unprovoked attacks against the Jews of Palestine and against Israel. Count the number of times the Jews of Palestine and the Israelis have carried out unprovoked attacks against the Arabs of the region.

The number of Israelis killed by Palestinians is only as low as it is because the Israeli Government has spent time, money and resources in protecting its citizens, the low number exists despite every attempted means possible being tried by the Palestinians to increase that number

3. As Jackie Walker has correctly said, there is no satisfactory and accepted definition of anti-Semitism - and the extraordinarily expansionist posts above show why. They go even further than the now discredited EUMC definition that I gather was attempted to be thrust down throats at the JLM training session where Jackie Walker was stitched up.

You forgot to add "In her opinion" Bridge. The reports and recommendations from the Inquiries carried out by Baroness Royall and by newly created Baroness Chakrabarti detailed what constitutes unacceptable racist and anti-Semitic behaviour within the Labour Party - The fact that Walker doesn't accept it is a matter for the Labour Party to sort out - They suspended her membership and demoted her.

4. The extreme racism directed against Jackie Walker can be found on almost every page discussing her current suspension and her demotion within Momentum - some are simply over-wrought othodoxy (the sort of post that asserts that she cannot be Jewish because her father rather than her mother was Jewish even though she had other ascendant female Jewish ancestors on her mother's side - but some go much further even than the assertion that she cannot be Jewish because she is black and descend to the sort of blakcup and chimpanzee posts that the US right wing present about the Obamas.

What "extreme racism"??

5. Buggerit I came here to talk about capos, and I have been seduced by right-wing trolls.

"Seduced by right-wing trolls" - grab it while you can it will probably be the best offer you'll get this century.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 04:21 AM

Jim,
I'm afraid that, until somebody actually puts a face to that accusation, it really doesn't exist

The faces behind the accusation include the entire NEC and numerous prominent Labour members and officials.

You have now described Jewish People in the Labour party as being hypocritical idiots who put P\arty Politics before their own people

I have not. They have reported the antisemitism to the leadership.
Who else would be interested?
The leadership chose to keep it quiet.

The fact that they, nor you, have attempted you have attempted to describe that antisemitism - so far, it amounts to criticism of Israel, which is not antisemitism

None of the stuff quoted has been criticism of Israel.

Yu are openly lying about Corbyn, the NEC and Chakrabati -

Guardian, "Corbyn's aides defended Shah, saying the comments were antisemitic but the MP had "shocked herself," and did not mean what she said.""

Labour List, "The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse."
"The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue"

Ch.4,
CH 4 News Presenter Cathy Newman, "Would you acknowledge now that the Party does have a serious problem with antisemitism."

Chakrabarti, "I acknowledged the serious problems in my report itself."

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 04:22 AM

This thread asks What does "'anti-semitism' mean?"
Perhaps a perfect example is describing all Jewish members of a political party as being both stupid and politically ambitious, first in complaining that their party is full of Antisemites, then in refusing to describe that antisemitism for fear of upsetting the Party.
Seems an extreme case of Antisemistism to me
"proposed boundaries and "awarded land" "
How do you propose boundaries and award land to people who have occupied that land for centuries? Arab occupation of the area dates back to the 8th century.
"Awarding" people their own land sounds very much like the old Imperial benevolence that was on its last legs when the State of Israel was being established.
A then and now reminder.
PALESTINIAN LOSS OF LAND MAP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 04:32 AM

Steve,
a discussion of antisemitism in the present context is not possible without bringing Israel, or at least the regime and its supporters, into it.

Of course it is!
Anti-semitism is about Jews not Israel, never mind Gaza and Lebanon!!

Much of the controversy over what is and what isn't antisemitism is coming either from Israel

Rubbish! Another wild assertion that you can't substantiate.

or elements of the pro-Israel lobby (including, in the UK, Labour Friends of Israel, for example)

So it is a conspiracy of Jews?

Of course Israel will comment on antisemitism wherever it rears its head, including within our Labour Party, BUT ALL THE ACCUSATIONS OF ANTISEMITISM HAVE COME FROM WITHIN LABOUR, NOT FROM ISRAEL.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 04:38 AM

Jim,
describing all Jewish members of a political party as being both stupid and politically ambitious,

No-one has ever said any such thing.
What a nasty lie and smear!

first in complaining that their party is full of Antisemites,

None of them have ever "complained" of any such thing!
Now you are smearing Labour Jews with your nasty lies.

then in refusing to describe that antisemitism for fear of upsetting the Party.

They have described it to the leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 05:47 AM

"How do you propose boundaries and award land to people who have occupied that land for centuries? Arab occupation of the area dates back to the 8th century."

League of Nations seemed to do very well at the time {Immediately after World War I} when it sought to implement US President Woodrow Wilson's "Fourteen Points":
Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Yugoslavia. Then with the break-up of the Ottoman Empire we got Syria, The Lebanon, Palestine, Transjordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia the Trucial States, Oman, Yemen, Aden.

Jews have lived in the area from way before the 8th Century.

Before the First World war the ottoman Empire found itself heavily in debt and the World Zionist Organisation offered to help in return for land.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:18 AM

The post of 04.32 am is extremely dishonest. I said "much of", not "most" or "all." Then the poster tried to make nonsense of my statement by chopping it in half. Those who attack criticism of Israeli policy, calling such criticism antisemitic, are indeed mostly either from Israel itself (just look at the links gleefully put up here by bobad and you) or from members or supporters of factions within the pro-Israel lobby. Your suggestion that I'm referring to a conspiracy of Jews is out-and-out antisemitic. I don't know how many times I have to tell you that many members of the pro-Israel lobby groups both here and in the US are not Jews. And you are completely unjustified in insinuating that I'm referring to any sort of conspiracy. I have never done that and I don't accept any such smear against Jewish people. Your obsession with wanting to make victims out of modern Jewish people is thoroughly antisemitic. Shame that you and scumbad can't see the irony in your remarks. It isn't as though we haven't pointed it out to you ad nauseam, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:25 AM

"League of Nations seemed to do very well at the time "
So what you acheive over centuries, you tear down by a committee
"Jews have lived in the area from way before the 8th Century."
So?
We are dealing with living people now, not ghosts from the past
Where would New Zealand, Australia and The United States be if we accepted your twisted logic - and in their case, the time span is far less?
Stupid, stupid (not to say inhuman) argument.
I couldn't give a shit for Empires - they were only glorified lad-grabbers.
"None of them have ever "complained" of any such thing!"
You have insisted throughout that Jews are being subjected to a lorra-lorra Antisemitism in the Labour Party
"They have described it to the leadership."
Who says they have?
Why haven't they gone public with it - are they that dismissive of Antiemitism that they put a political Party first?
Virtually all these people have connections with the Israeli propaganda campaign to oppose the Boycott
So you are now saying that they put the Interests of the Labour Party above that of Israel?
For crying out loud Keith, stop digging - this is self-flagellation.
Your suggestion that these people have kept silent because of their loyalty to The Labour Party is as Antisemitic as it gets.
To first report Antisemitism then to deliberately withold the details from the general public would be grossly stupid and to apply that to all Jews in the Labour Party would be deeply Abntisemitic.
As it is, it is pure invention on your part to smear the Labour Party.
You offer not a shred of evidence for any of these claims.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:37 AM

"One law for the Goose another for the Gander" Eh Jim.

Fact - The United Nations officially recognised the State of Israel in May 1948. UN recognition was immediately followed by recognition by the U.S.S.R. and the USA. The USA has a bi-lateral defence agreement with Israel from this date and stands as guarantor of Israeli sovereignty and security.

Fact - The Israeli's were prepared to accept the UN Two-State solution proposed in 1947. The Arabs rejected it and five Arab nations declared war on the fledgling State of Israel in May 1948.

War is not a question of equivalence, War is not a "best out of three" child's game. Declare war, threaten to annihilate an entire population by driving them into the sea and lose that war does not mean a sign flashes "Game Over" and the pieces get re-set for the next attempt - there are consequences associated with waging and losing wars, I would have thought that by now the Arabs of the region and their "leaders" would have twigged onto that fact by now, wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:42 AM

The British left Palestine to the sound of Israeli freedom fighters grenades being tossed into #occupied houses to make way for the new settlers
Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Einstein and hi colleagues described this and other atrocities as "Zionist Fascism" - that was exactly what it was.
All this happened before most of today's generation were around - we are living in today.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:48 AM

These "maps" have been widely circulated by the BDS movement, and they are misleading and dishonest. They appear in the "Zionism Unsettled" study guide. They appear on the websites of the Israel Palestine Mission Network (IPMN) and the Presbyterian Peace Fellowship (PPF). They also appear in the supporting materials for the BDS overtures submitted to the 2014 and upcoming 2016 Presbyterian General Assemblies.

The intent of the maps is clear: to falsely demonstrate an "ethnic cleansing" that did not occur, one perpetrated by the "colonizer" Jews upon "indigenous" Arabs (the incendiary words "colonizer", "indigenous", and "ethnic cleansing" are used repeatedly in BDS literature).

In 1946, the area labeled "Palestine" was the British Mandate of Palestine. All who lived there were Palestinians, Arab Palestinians and Jewish Palestinians. In the 1946 "map" these terms change. The Arab Palestinians are now simply "Palestinians." The word "Palestinian" now means "Arab" and no longer refers to all of the people who live there, and the Jewish Palestinians are simply "Jews". In 1946 Jews paid over 50% of property taxes in Palestine. Almost half of the land was public land, owned by no one and administered by the British. The premise that the land was almost all "Arab land" is misleading. It was shared land and belonged to no particular ethnic group.

Now let's consider the 1967 map in terms of "ethnic cleansing", keeping in mind that before 1948, both Jews and Arabs lived in all of the areas of the British Mandate of Palestine, including the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. It is quite common to hear that the entire West Bank is "Arab Land" and always has been, but numerous Jewish communities existed in what is now the West Bank prior to 1948. These communities were attacked and wiped out by Arab mobs in 1920, 1929 and 1936 and during the war waged by Arab militias and Arab governments in 1947-48. Here are some facts:

Until it was wiped out by Arab riots in 1929 in what is known as the Hebron Massacre, there was a large Jewish community in the center of Hebron

The Jewish population of Jerusalem (which has had a Jewish majority since at least the second half of the 19th century) was dispossessed by the Arab riots of 1929 and 1936 (when Jews fled most of what is now called the Muslim Quarter). In 1948, the Jordanian Legion expelled all of the Jews then living in what is now East Jerusalem and destroyed its holy places.

Sizeable tracts of land owned by Jews in the rural West Bank – including the Gush Etzion settlements, land between Nablus, Jenin and Tulkarm, and in Bethlehem and Hebron – were seized by the Jordanians in 1948.

The 'Jewish settlements' north of Jerusalem, Atarot and Neve Yaakov, were evacuated in 1948, under the declared threat of advancing Arab armies to massacre all the Jews in their path.

Today, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians live on land in and around Jerusalem that is still owned by the Jewish National Fund, including the Kalandia refugee camp and the Deheishe refugee camp south of Bethlehem.


FAKE PALESTINIAN LOSS OF LAND MAPS

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:53 AM

Incredible Shrinking Israel

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:55 AM

Jim,
"None of them have ever "complained" of any such thing!"
You have insisted throughout that Jews are being subjected to a lorra-lorra Antisemitism in the Labour Party

"lora-lorra?"
They have complained about antisemitism, but no-one has ever complained "that their party is full of Antisemites," which is what you falsely claimed Jim.

"They have described it to the leadership."
Who says they have?

Errr, the leadership.

Why haven't they gone public with it

Because it is an internal Labour issue.
How can you deny it is an issue when the entire NEC has said it is.
And so many high profile members, e.g. Sadiq Khan who is hardly a member of the pro-Israel lobby Steve!

So you are now saying that they put the Interests of the Labour Party above that of Israel?

Yes, I am sure they do. What has Israel got to do with it anyway?

You offer not a shred of evidence for any of these claims.

I have quoted the entire NEC and numerous high profile members.
Your only answer would have to be that they are all lying.
Is that your case Jim?

Steve,
The post of 04.32 am is extremely dishonest.

The quotes are all cut and pastes of what you posted Steve.

Then the poster tried to make nonsense of my statement by chopping it in half.

No. I split it in two so I could respond to both parts separately. Less confusing that way.

Those who attack criticism of Israeli policy, calling such criticism antisemitic, are indeed ......

No-one calls all criticism of Israel antisemitic.
How many times will you set up that silly straw man?
It is an invention!

Your suggestion that I'm referring to a conspiracy of Jews is out-and-out antisemitic.

OK. A conspiracy of the "pro-Israel lobby." Is that what you believe?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 09:10 AM

Smear that funky feces, Bubo; Smear that funky feces right.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 09:17 AM

An invention? Do you read the thread properly? Are you aware that your henchman bobad has called McGrath of Harlow an antisemite? Kevin, who has criticised the actions of the Israeli regime but never, ever said an antisemitic word in his life? You are not here to discuss. You are here to try blindly to score points for Israel. Well Israel needs people like you like it needs a hole in the head, Keith. I fully addressed the dishonesty with which you approached my post. I'm not playing games with you by going back to that again. You misrepresented in order to cheat this forum. Not for the first time, not by a long chalk. If I had any power (which I'm glad I haven't), it would be your last.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 10:11 AM

"Because it is an internal Labour issue."
Thank you for confirming your antisemitism - the Jewish members of the Labour Party put the interests of the Party before that of the Jewish People
I doubt if your troll friend will confirm this as Antisemitism, but that's what it is.
This is made up nonsense - if it isn't, show who else claims it.
You have not identified Antisemitism in the Labour Party and until you do, it does not exist, whoever claims it
Until you come up with e better excuse for denigrating the Jewish members of the Labour Party this goes on record as your screaming Antisemitism.
Done and dusted, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 11:07 AM

I had a long, thoughtful post, that vanished.

My main thrust was, saying "Israel should not do X" is not anti-semitic. Saying "It's just like those Israelis to do X" is.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 11:22 AM

Steve,
An invention?

Yes, I said it is an invention that anyone is claiming that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic.
Can you produce any such nonsense?
No.

You are here to try blindly to score points for Israel.

I thought I was the one trying not to make this just another thread about Israel.

I'm not playing games with you by going back to that again.

No, because you were shown to have no case. Just belief in a conspiracy.

You misrepresented in order to cheat this forum.

I did not misrepresent you. My quotes were cut and pastes and your actual posts were just a few posts ago, so how could anyone be cheated as to what you said?!
You are just embarrassed because you have been shown to have no case.

Jim,
Thank you for confirming your antisemitism - the Jewish members of the Labour Party put the interests of the Party before that of the Jewish People

There Steve is another genuine misreprestation from Jim.

What I actually said was "Yes, I am sure they do." in reply to Jim's "So you are now saying that they put the Interests of the Labour Party above that of Israel?"

This is made up nonsense - if it isn't, show who else claims it.

It is a fact that accusations of antisemitism within Labour have been made.
Deny that Jim?
It is a fact that complaints have been made to the leadership about it.
Deny that Jim?

You have not identified Antisemitism in the Labour Party and until you do, it does not exist, whoever claims it

So you are claiming that the entire NEC and prominent members like Sadiq Khan and Chakrabarti are all lying about it!!

All the accusations come from within Labour. What have I got to do with it?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 12:01 PM

""Yes, I am sure they do."
My mistake - my question wa earlier and it remains
" the Jewish members of the Labour Party put the interests of the Party before that of the Jewish People "
No misrepresentation - just a muitk on my part
That is your stance and that is the basis of your Antisemitism
Thatis actually what you are claiming
You are an antisemite
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 01:44 PM

The relevance of Israel in a thread is really only about (a)whether it can be appropriate to accuse people of antisemitism on the basis of their being critical of actions and policies of the Israeli government? Or (b)on the basis that they challenge the legitimacy of the state of Israel?

And (c) whether it is the case that accusations of antisemitism are being made against members of the Labour party.d

Strictly speaking, arguments about Israeli and Palestinian history, or about the justice of the two sides, are not really relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 01:47 PM

The relevance of Israel in this thread is really only about (a)whether it can be appropriate to accuse people of antisemitism on the basis of their being critical of actions and policies of the Israeli government? Or (b)on the basis that they challenge the legitimacy of the state of Israel?

And (c) whether it is the case that accusations of antisemitism are being made against members of the Labour party on the basis of such criticism, without any evidence of hostility to Jews or Judaism.

Strictly speaking, arguments about Israeli and Palestinian history, or about the justice of the two sides, are not really relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 02:39 PM

a) Not anti-Semitic.

b) Is both Racist and Anti-Semitic, it was the Jewish population, i.e. the Jewish people of Palestine who accepted the Two-State Solution offered by the United Nations in 1947 who were responsible for declaring an independent and sovereign State of Israel that came into effect at midnight on the day that the former League of nations Mandate expired, NOT the Israeli Government primarily because there wasn't an Israeli Government. The United Nations immediately officially recognised the State of Israel and recognised its right to exist in peace, free attack or threat of attack. Six Arab neighbouring countries declared war on the newly created Israeli State. No-one has the right to challenge the legitimacy of the State of Israel to do so is to deny the Jewish people their right to self-determination.

c) In the case of Naz Shah she publicly stated her support for moving the Jewish population "lock-stock-and-barrel" and transporting them to the centre of the United States - she did not just want the Israeli regime moved there she wanted the entire population moved there - that again is both racist and anti-Semitic - she even admitted that herself, of course Shaw and Carroll think they know better - fact is THEY DON'T.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 02:49 PM

a, not antisemitic, and no-one claiming it is.

b, Legitimate or not, it exists and is not going away except by anhiliation.
Those in favour of anhilation would certainly be anti-semites.

c,
whether it is the case that accusations of antisemitism are being made against members of the Labour party

They unquestionably are, and all from within the Party.

without any evidence of hostility to Jews or Judaism.


All the accusations that have come to light have been about Jews, not Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 03:10 PM

In honour of this year's Nobel laureate and apropos of this topic:


"Neighborhood Bully"

Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man
His enemies say he's on their land
They got him outnumbered about a million to one
He got no place to escape to, no place to run
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully he just lives to survive
He's criticized and condemned for being alive
He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin
He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land
He's wandered the earth an exiled man
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn
He's always on trial for just being born
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized
Old women condemned him, said he could apologize
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad
The bombs were meant for him. He was supposed to feel bad
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, the chances are against it, and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a licence to kill him is given out to every maniac
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he got no allies to really speak of
What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love
He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease
Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly. To hurt one they would weep
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep
He's the neighborhood bully.

Every empire that's enslaved him is gone
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon
He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand
In bed with nobody, under no one's command
He's the neighborhood bully.

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon
No contract that he signed was worth that what it was written on
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health
He's the neighborhood bully.

What's anybody indebted to him for ?
Nothing, they say. He just likes to cause war
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed
He's the neighborhood bully.

What has he done to wear so many scars ?
Does he change the course of rivers ? Does he pollute the moon and stars ?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill
Running out the clock, time standing still
Neighborhood bully.

Bob Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 04:06 PM

Challenging the legitimacy of a country isn't the same thing as calling for its annihilation.
Many people challenged the legitimacy of apartheid South Africa. What they wanted was a total transformation, not annihilation, nor for the expulsion of the white population.

It is also perfectly fair to see countries such as the USA and Australia as having been built on a total illegitimate basis of annexation, theft and genocide. But that isn't the same as saying these countries should cease to exist.

It is perfectly possible to challenge the legitimacy of the status quo as regard Israel, seen as a situation in which a state defined as confessionally Jewish, on the basis of past ethnic cleansing, occupies and controls the West Bank, and imposes a territorial blockade imprisoning the Gaza strip, The inhabitants of these territories are in effect living in Greater Israel, but with no effective political rights.

That analysis can be challenged, and is challenged - but I cannot see how it can rightly be identified with antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 05:59 PM

past ethnic cleansing, occupies and controls the West Bank, and imposes a territorial blockade imprisoning the Gaza strip

There was no "ethnic cleansing" using that terminology is considered an anti-Semitic trope.

If you care to do some research the "West Bank" is, according to international law, as much a part of Israel as is Israel proper.

The legal blockade against Gaza is to prevent the entry of weaponry destined to be used against Israeli citizens which ultimately leads to war resulting in civilian casualties. I suppose you don't care about that.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:22 PM

The term "ethnic cleansing" wasn't invented until the troubles in former Yugoslavia erupted, but the removal of Arab Palestinians from what became Israel in 1948, the destruction of the physical record that they had ever existed, and the sustained refusal of their return very cleary merits the term.

If the West Bank is considered to be "as much a part of Israel as Israel proper" this of course would definitely undermine the claim of Israel to legitimacy, in the light of the failure to provide the West Bank inhabitants (apart from settlers) with political and civil rights.

However my point was not that the analysis I presented here was necessarily adequate or true, it was that it cannot be properly rermed "antisemitic".

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:27 PM

You are on a hiding to nothing, Kevin. This person regards YOU as antisemitic. I wish you luck, but, as long as he's allowed to post here, you're stuffed.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:51 PM

There was no "ethnic cleansing"

Lay down the BS and smear that funky feces till you die.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:53 PM

When I respond to a post like that, it's primarily to address points raised in that post, rather than to get in a conversation with thes person posting. You can hardly ever expect to change other people's minds - the idea is essentially to clarify your own understanding of what's at issue.

Play the ball, not the man.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 07:42 PM

Good luck. Learn from history. As long as he's here you will branded antisemitic every time you criticise Israeli policy or actions. A total impediment to debate, an attack on free speech which, ironically, the owner of this board and his moderators, free speech aficionados, don't recognise. You know damn well that neither you, I nor Jim have a single antisemitic bone in our bodies. The racism here, the hatred, emanates from Keith and bobad, mainly. You can be as measured as you like but you won't stop it, as has clearly been demonstrated this week. I know what I stand for and you know what you stand for, but the hateful, sniping bastards are always waiting for you. As Jeremy over on The Session would say, why not play a tune instead?   Mind you, there are no Keiths and no bobads over there anyway. People like that are persona non grata, as they damn well should be here.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 07:49 PM

Kevin, there's no changing what passes for Bubo's mind. If you think there's such a possibility, you're as delusional as he is.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 02:25 AM

Steve, you have just stated your belief that some "pro-Israel lobby" is behind the accusations of antisemitism within Labour.
A few weeks ago you told us that even governments act under the influence of this "pro-Israel lobbby."
I asked several times what leverage they had, but you refused to answer.

I think you should explain how this conspiracy operates.
You are treading a very fine line because a "pro-Israel lobby" is likely to be overwhelmingly Jewish, and proposing a global Jewish conspiracy to control governments is well recognised as anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 03:06 AM

McGrath of Harlow - 13 Oct 16 - 04:06 PM

1: "Challenging the legitimacy of a country isn't the same thing as calling for its annihilation."

In the case of Israel it is. By the way Kevin what other officially and internationally recognised country in the world has had its "legitimacy" challenged?

2: "Many people challenged the legitimacy of apartheid South Africa. What they wanted was a total transformation, not annihilation, nor for the expulsion of the white population."

No they did not Kevin, you are comparing apples to oranges, what people the world over challenged was the legitimacy of the Apartheid Regime in South Africa they did not challenge the legitimacy of the country itself.

Your point (b) was - "on the basis that they challenge the legitimacy of the state of Israel" - that is "racist" and anti-Semitic. To challenge the legitimacy of a country is to challenge its right to exist.

3: "It is also perfectly fair to see countries such as the USA and Australia as having been built on a total illegitimate basis of annexation, theft and genocide. But that isn't the same as saying these countries should cease to exist."

Name a country that hasn't. But with regard to the territory of Palestine {It was never a country} the only people ever guilty of annexation were the Egyptians and Jordanians in 1948. Theft? By and large what the Jews acquired in the territory of Palestine was purchased legally from its owners. Genocide? What genocide? Were there a campaign of genocide being mounted against the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians then surely it must be the most ineffective and poorly conducted in history as it has been underway for 68 years now and the Arab population in the territory formerly known as Palestine has exploded.

4: "It is perfectly possible to challenge the legitimacy of the status quo as regard Israel, seen as a situation in which a state defined as confessionally Jewish, on the basis of past ethnic cleansing, occupies and controls the West Bank, and imposes a territorial blockade imprisoning the Gaza strip, The inhabitants of these territories are in effect living in Greater Israel, but with no effective political rights."

Israel is defined as a "Jewish State" because those were the words used to describe by the United Nations in their 1947 Two-State Plan. Nothing whatsoever to do with "ethnic cleansing", the current situation in the West bank is the situation agreed to by the Israeli Government and the Palestinian Authority and it is one that in comparison to Gaza has kept the peace for over a decade now. The Israelis forcibly removed all Israeli settlers from Gaza and unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Since then over 15,000 missiles have been fired from Gaza into Israel. I do take it Kevin that you accept that any person or any state that has been attacked has an inalienable right to defend itself? Gaza and the political faction that "governs" it have declared that their intention and goal is the eradication and annihilation of the State and Jewish population of Israel - that is anti-Semitic and anyone who sympathises with them and calls them "friend" automatically become tarred with the same brush. Israel is not the only country that has tightly controlled borders with Gaza. Hamas in Gaza are a danger to all, but to none more so than the "Palestinian" Arabs unfortunate enough to live under their "governance".

5: That analysis can be challenged, and is challenged - but I cannot see how it can rightly be identified with antisemitism.

Your analysis is at fault, the challenge to the right of existence of the internationally recognised State of Israel and the challenge to the right of its population to be allowed to live in peace free from attack and free from the threat of attack is anti-Semitic behaviour of the worst kind.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 04:15 AM

"In the case of Israel it is."
You only need to compare the "Then and Now" maps of Palestine and the dead of both sides to see who is is annihilating whom
Israel is a legitimate State - that can never be challenged.
It is now run by a bunch of Fascists who are doing to the Arabs what the Nazis did to the Jews - the possibility of this happening was pointed out by the finest brain on this planet ALBERT EINSTEIN , and a number of his Jewish colleagues as far back as the 1940s and is now being gradually acknowledged by JEWS AND NON JEWS ALIKE - the Jews who have deemed to criticise Israeli policy have been described as 'Self-Hating'
In order to defend itself from the consequences of its murderous behaviour, the Israeli have openly declared that criticism of its policy is "antisemitic" - declaring that the political interests of the state are subservient to the views of the people as a whole is Fascism by definition.
Israeli behaviour is condemned throughout the civilised world by all but the self-interested politicians, who have not supported these actions, but have remained silent
Only American vetoes have prevented Israel from facing trial for human rights for crimes against humanity - Israel's response to these threats has been to call for the abolition of the International Criminal Court.
Israel is now fascism gone viral - that has been stated by Jews thoughout the world, including members of the Israeli establishment.   
"c) In the case of Naz Shah she publicly stated her support for moving the Jewish population "lock-stock-and-barrel" and transporting them to the centre of the United States"
Shah's statement was unacceptable, she has withdrawn it and apologised for it.
The Israeli Justice Minister has called for the indiscriminate slaughter of the Palestinian people, making them all as the enemies of Israel
She has neither apologised for it nor withdrawn it
A previous Israeli Foreign Minister, Avigdor Lieberman, who has recently been offered the post of Defence Minister, called for the beheading of all disloyal Arab Israeli citizens.
He has neither apologised for not withdrawn his comments
Both Shaked and Lieberman are high raking Israeli officials, Naz Shah made her comments in her youth, before she entered Parliament
There has not been a single shred of descriptive evidence offered for the claims of Antisemitism.
Keith has accused all Jewish Labour politicians of entering into a vow of silence by refusing to describe the Atisemitism that they claim is taking place
NOW THAT' WHAT I CALL ANTISEMITISM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 04:37 AM

"anti-Semitic behaviour of the worst kind."
****** nonsense
Antisemitism of the worst kind was to murder sic million Jews - defensive warfare against Israeli fascism is not Antisemitism, it is self preservation.
All question of the right of Israel of Israel to exist in now a consequence of Israeli right-wing extremism and has largely been brought about by the regime's implicating the Jewish People in their murderous behaviour - antisemitc by definition
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 06:25 AM

Jim Carroll - 14 Oct 16 - 04:15 AM

1: Thanks to Israeli awareness and actions no-one is annihilating anyone - population figures prove that over the last 68 years.

2: "Israel is a legitimate State - that can never be challenged."

Funny that is what I have always said, but Kevin disagrees and so does Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah and Islamic Jihad all of whom wish to see the eradication of the state and the annihilation of the Jewish people who reside there {Over 6 million of them}

3: "It is now run by a bunch of Fascists who are doing to the Arabs what the Nazis did to the Jews"

False, emotive, claptrap.

4: "In order to defend itself from the consequences of its murderous behaviour, the Israeli have openly declared that criticism of its policy is "antisemitic"

Hardly, unlike anything that exists in areas under "Palestinian" control the Israeli Regime allows elections, free press and a democratic process that includes political opposition parties whose job it is to criticise the Government.

5: "declaring that the political interests of the state are subservient to the views of the people as a whole is Fascism by definition."

Haven't you got that the wrong way round Carroll? Shouldn't it be "the interests of the people are subservient {i.e. lower in priority or rank} to the interests of the state"

6: "Israeli behaviour is condemned throughout the civilised world by all but the self-interested politicians, who have not supported these actions, but have remained silent"

Factually inaccurate, wishful thinking on your part and not representative of reality.

7: "Shah's statement was unacceptable, she has withdrawn it and apologised for it."

You rather conveniently omit to mention that she also described her statement as being anti-Semitic made through ignorance and based upon false information.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 06:45 AM

"Thanks to Israeli awareness and actions no-one is annihilating anyone"
So the 1,716 civlians slaughtered over the last few years are all makie-ups - must write that down!!
"Funny that is what I have always said, but Kevin disagrees and so does Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah and Islamic Jihad "
The fascist state that Israel has become cannot continue to exist, certainly not without resistance
If Israeli Ministers declare war on all the Palestinian people, it is hardly surprising that those demands are met with similar demands
If all Palestinians are legitimate targets, all Israeilis are bound to be considered such - the proof of the pudding becoms apparent when you start countig the dead and the millions of refugees scattered over the planet.
I very much doubt if Kevin has made those demands
Israel has become a fascist state that has even turned on Jew who oppose it.
"False, emotive, claptrap."
Then respond to the facts with facts of your own instead of meaningless denials - even one of Israel's leading papers has gone as far as to say "Israel is not a Facist state, but it's pretty bad".
It is a common accusation, from Jews and non Jews
"Haven't you got that the wrong way round Carroll?"
No - and the use of my surname indicated that you are reverting to your neanderthal state - your insecurity is showing again - get a grip.
"Factually inaccurate, "
More unsubstantiated denials - seems your stock-in-trade.
"You rather conveniently omit to mention that she also described her statement as being anti-Semitic"
And she withdrew it - your Israeli Ministers have not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 07:43 AM

Challenging the legitimacy of a country isn't the same thing as calling for its annihilation.

There is no question as to the legitimacy of the State of Israel, why would you want to challenge it? Those who do are usually of the ilk who challenge the holocaust.

Factually inaccurate, wishful thinking on your part and not representative of reality.

Which is a polite way of saying he is lying and lying in order to demonize Israel and it's people which makes him an anti-Semite - but we already know that.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 08:16 AM

If the West Bank is considered to be "as much a part of Israel as Israel proper" this of course would definitely undermine the claim of Israel to legitimacy, in the light of the failure to provide the West Bank inhabitants (apart from settlers) with political and civil rights.

The desire of Israel is to transfer the territory to the "Palestinians" for a state. The Israeli's have made many attempts to do so all which have been rebuffed by the "Palestinian" leaders. The governance is in transition and is dependent upon the "Palestinian" leadership showing that they can provide public order and internal security which up to the present they have not been able to do. The citizens enjoy political and civil rights under the governance (such as it is) of the Palestinian Authority in areas A and B, the Israelis maintain authority in area C as a means of providing security for their citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 08:44 AM

"There is no question as to the legitimacy of the State of Israel, why would you want to challenge it?"
Nobody here is challenging the legitimacy of the state as a State - despite your hysterical accusations
What is being challenged is the legitimacy of an administration that has destroyed the dream of the State by adopting measures not unsimilar than those who brought about the Holocaust.
This administration has declared war on Jewish opponents of their policies
Your defence has never been in support of the Jewish People, on the contrary, you have chosen to defend Israeli fascism and have sided with these people against your fellow Jews
You have no interest in the welfare of the Jewish People -= your concern is for the right wing extremists who have smashed the dream of a Jewish State.
Should you run true to form, you will now vomit out your antisemitic bile.
Respond to the facts rather that posting your usual hate mail.
INFECTED BY FASCISM
SEEDS of FASCISM


Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 09:58 AM

Donald J. Trump on Thursday accused Hillary Clinton of guiding a "global power structure" that has rigged the economy against the working class, language that some suggested echoed anti-Semitic themes.

The remarks drew criticism from some who said they resembled prejudicial language used by anti-Semites.

"Whether intentionally or not, Donald Trump is evoking classic anti-Semitic themes that have historically been used against Jews and still reverberate today," Jonathan Greenblatt, the chief executive of the Anti-Defamation League, a group that fights discrimination, said in a statement.

Mr. Greenblatt said the group feared that white supremacists might see the comments as tacit encouragement.

"Mr. Trump focused on the very issues and themes that obsess conspiratorial anti-Semites: They believe that there is an elite group of Jews who control the media, the government, and banking, and who are trying to destroy white America," he said. "They also believe that most of Hillary Clinton's donors are Jewish."

The Trump campaign did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 10:17 AM

Same elite group of Jews fomenting the anti-Semitism conspiracy against the UK Labour party?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 10:28 AM

MUST you be an ass, Bubo?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 10:59 AM

He really isn't worth talking to.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 12:27 PM

No point talking to him, Steve just at him.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 12:38 PM

"Same elite group of Jews fomenting the anti-Semitism conspiracy against the UK Labour party?"
Nope - according to you mate Keith, they's rather say nothing and keep their jobs - a bit Antisemitic, doncha think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 01:13 PM

Jim,
the Israeli have openly declared that criticism of its policy is "antisemitic"

No they have not.
They allow and welcome criticism.
There are no Haaretz Journalists in prison, and they are always criticising policy.
Egypt and Turkey lock up critical journalists, and in Russia they are shot in the street.
There are no opposition politicians locked up, unlike Turke, and unlike all those countries that have no opposition or free media.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 01:26 PM

Jim,
Nope - according to you mate Keith, they's rather say nothing

Nope - according to me they reported incidents of anti-Semitism from their Labour comrades to the Labour leadership.

Do you agree with Steve that there is a "pro-Israel lobby" conspiring to invent these incidents and to control governments?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 01:47 PM

It is perfectly possible to criticise the analysis I presented, as I indicated was the case. But that is not in fact relevant. My point was that there is nothing in it that relates to hostility towards Jews as Jews. If the inhabitants were predominently Mormons or Plymouth Brethren, that in itself would make no difference to the analysis, and there would be no grounds for thinking it implied any hostility towards members of those religions, or that in originated in such hostility.

If somebody were to regard Israel as illegimate or be hostile to it, because it was Jewish, that would indeed he antisemitic. But that is not what critics of Israel, or indeed those who challege its legitacy can fairly be accused of, or even are accused of in the context of the Labour Party. That is the case regardless of whether their objections stand up in face of examination or not.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 02:02 PM

Kevin,
or even are accused of in the context of the Labour Party.

No-one in Labour has been accused of anti-Semitism for criticising Israel.
They have been accused of anti-Semitism unrelated to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 02:06 PM

I have not accused anyone of conspiring to do anything. You are trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 02:06 PM

"Nope - according to me they reported incidents of anti-Semitism from their Labour comrades to the Labour leadership."
Then you lied Keith - there are no reports of their doing so - you certainly have not provided any proof of their having done this - but please feel free to prove you have.
Even if this were the case, there was nothing to stop them from going to the press or the pro-Israeli organisations some of them are part of.
You claim they haven't because of their loyalty to the Labour Party.
It is inconceivable that any Jewish politician would hide antisemitism for fear of damaging a Party they have already accused of Antisemitism let alone all Jewish members - that would have taken a mutual agreement for them to have done so - are you now claiming there was a clandestine meeting to agree this?
This is a total fabrication on your part to smear the Labour Party and to prove yourself "right" again.
If you don't provide proof it proveds you to be an extremist Antisemite to have invented this story which accuses all the Jewish members of the Labour Party - to a man and woman - of covering up Antisemitism by refusing to identify it.
Now - where's your proof of this disgusting story?
No proof, thn you stand exposed of Antisemitism
Now will do nicely, thank you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 02:19 PM

C'mon Keith - or are these just antismitic lies to smear even the Jewish Labour Party members?
It only takes a minute to provide a link
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 02:25 PM

Ruth Smeeth actually cut up her Labour Party card in protest - surely she can explain what the Antisemitism is?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?q
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 04:49 PM

I think the distinction you are making, Keith, is that criticising Israel is not antisemitic, but criticising people or organisatiins for supporting Israel may be so described, in the case where these are Jewish. At any rate that seems to be the basis for many of the accusations we have heard in the case of the Labour Party.

I think there is a jump in logic here. At the time of the Spanish Civil War there were some Catholics, and some Catholic organisations in this country which favoured Franco. Would it have been anti-Catholic to object to this?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 06:32 PM

As far as The Professor is concerned, there is NO logic there. Just uninformed opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 06:34 PM

Totally being entertained by the feigned righteous indignation by the cabal who claim that the charge of anti-Semitism against the Labour party is a Jewish conspiracy. Make mention of the fact and they all go apoplectic. You couldn't make it up folks.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 07:09 PM

There are no "folks" worth their salt listening to you, and no-one here has accused anyone else of conspiracy. I know that you WANT us to accuse Jews of conspiring against this, that or the other, but none of us do, so please accept my apologies for frustrating you.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 07:26 PM

and no-one here has accused anyone else of conspiracy.

Ah, ha ha.....it just gets more and more surreal folks.........stay tuned.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 08:48 PM

Yup- stay tuned for more of the same old BooSpew.

Predictable, Boring and Bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 09:14 PM

Wow, you guys, someone look up "Jew-baiting". This thread is odoriferous.
Specially for those beating their chests that No No They are NOT anti-semitic. Sounds like Donald Trump saying "No one has greater respect for women than me!"
Those who are persecuted are well aware of it and of each other.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 09:34 PM

Sounds nothing like Trump, Robo, who you will note, if you can read, has himself made anti-semitic remarks.

Apparently you've fallen for the BooSpew hook, line & sinker.

Suggest you re-read McGraths posts from the beginning -this time for comprehension -& try to think before you spew.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 09:35 PM

Right on Robo, there's not enough of us calling out the Jew haters for what they are - too many pussies on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 10:41 PM

"The oppressed know one another" was a comment from an old Irish friend of my mother.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 12:53 AM

"The wicked flee when none pursue."

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 02:17 AM

Jim Carroll - 14 Oct 16 - 02:06 PM

"Nope - according to me they reported incidents of anti-Semitism from their Labour comrades to the Labour leadership." {Keith A of Hertford}

Then you lied Keith - there are no reports of their doing so - you certainly have not provided any proof of their having done this - but please feel free to prove you have."

Labour MP John Mann and Alex Chambers, the co-chairman of Oxford University Labour Club certainly did and that resulted in Baroness Royall's Inquiry.

"Even if this were the case, there was nothing to stop them from going to the press or the pro-Israeli organisations some of them are part of."

The story was covered by the media and the Oxford University Jewish Society made comment on the subject {Note that Jim "Jewish Society" not the Oxford University pro-Israeli Society}

Care to tell us all how going to anyone other than Labour Party would get their concerns acted upon?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 04:06 AM

So - there you go.
Keith has invented a scenario describing a plot by the Jewish members of the Labour Party having claimed the Party of having a serious problem of Antisemitism, then refusing to make that Antisemitism public because of their loyalty to that party.
He has not produced a shred of evidence of that plot, nor will he - it doesn't exist.
The Jewish people I knew - some of them Labour Party members, would never have put their name to such a cover up - I don't believe any self-respecting Jew would.
Keith has made this up to cover up the fact that he is unable to describe the Antisemitism that he claims infects Labour.
Nothing daunted - his two 'defenders of the Jewish People' buddies have stood valiantly by his antisemitic smear of the Jewish Labour members - why wouldn't they?
Their interest is not in the welfare of The Jewish People - it is in supporting the extremist, right-wing Israeli regime.   
THESE THREE HEROES HAVE MADE THEIR CASE
This whole episode given us a perfect answer to the question asked by title of this thread.
Antisemitism is the denigration of and discrimination of the Jews as a people - not of the Israelis - THE JEWS.
Of course antisemitism exists in the Labour party - there is hardly an institution or community n the world where it doesn't exist.
Far from it being a problem in the Labour Party, it is less likely to be one in a party which was created by humanitarian and socially conscious people, many of who were Jews fleeing from the pogroms of the 19th century - a party which is dedicated to anti-racism and anti sectarianism.
The 'Antisemitism' that Labour may be guilty of is the type that has been re-invented by the Israeli regime to protect itself from the consequences of the crimes it has committed against the Palestinian people - THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
What we do know about this whole affair is that the bulk of the accusers are connected with the at least $26m propaganda campaign to prevent the boycott – that is what this "antisemitim" accusation is about.
Sure – some of the less scrupulous right were happy to join in the kicking match to oppose Corbyn, but all the evidence points to the Anti BDS campaign.
Antisemitism is on the rise again – hardly surprising when the Israeli regime has chosen to hide behind the Jewish People to justify its Human Rights abuses and war crimes – some opponents of that regime are bound to pick up on that cowardly defence and blame the Jews for what the Israeli administration is doing.
The losers in all of this have been both the Palestinians who are being ethnically cleansed and the Jewish people who have been targetted by being implicated that cleansing by the ISRAELI FASCISTS
And we have three keen supporters of that targetting campaign.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:04 AM

Steve,
I have not accused anyone of conspiring to do anything. You are trolling.

You claimed that a "pro-Israel lobby" was inventing the anti-Semitism issue to discredit the Labour Party, and were also influencing governments.
The would hardly achieve that by working individually and alone.
They would have to conspire.
I described your position accurately. No trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:06 AM

"Wow, you guys, someone look up "Jew-baiting". This thread is odoriferous."
By th way Robo - the offr I made to Bobad, which he has not taken up, is extended to you or anybody sharing your views.
If you can produce a shred of evidence of my attacking The Jewish People I am happy to make a generous donation to a charity of your choice.
I'm happy to bet that Keith would not care to make that offer, given his Labour Party 'Jewish pact of silence'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:11 AM

Jim,
"Nope - according to me they reported incidents of anti-Semitism from their Labour comrades to the Labour leadership."
Then you lied Keith - there are no reports of their doing so

Then how did the leadership know about it Jim?
See T's post.

Kevin,
criticising people or organisatiins for supporting Israel may be so described, in the where these are Jewish. At any rate that seems to be the basis for many of the accusations we have heard in the case of the Labour Party.

No it is not. Anti-Semitism has nothing to do with Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:49 AM

You are both lying and trolling now, Keith. Joining in with your silly games is beneath my dignity.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 08:31 AM

Jim Carroll gives an excellent example of the new anti-Semitism when he refers to any Jewish Society or organisation as pro-Israeli.

By the way Carroll pro-Israeli what? Pro-Israeli people? Pro-Israeli Government? You don't seem to be very specific.

Worked out how to dig a mass grave with a bulldozer yet? And do you still think that a "Fascist State" is one that puts the requirements of the people before the requirements of the state?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 09:02 AM

"By the way Carroll pro-Israeli what? Pro-Israeli people"
The word "regime" gives a clue - read what I write - I've used it 15 times on this thread.
Specific enough for me.
Still no description of the "antisemitism" and still no explanation of the 'Jewish pact of silence"
If it quacks, it's probably a duck, if someone talks about Jewish plots, they are probably antisemites, as are those who support him.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 09:03 AM

"Jim Carroll gives an excellent example of the new anti-Semitism when he refers to any Jewish Society or organisation as pro-Israeli."

That is an ambiguous sentence. A)On the one hand it could be that he is accused of saying that any Jewish organisation, by virtue of being Jewish must automatically be "pro-Israel". B)On the other hand it could be he is accused of saying that there are Jewish organisation that pro-Israel.

A) could indeed fairly be described as tending towards antisemitism, on certain definitions of what "pro-Israel" means - though it is a claim that has often been made by Israeli voices.

B) is self evidently true, and is not an antisemitic thing to say.

There is also the question of what "pro Israel" means. Criticism of Israel is in no way incomptable with being essentially supportive of the people of Israel, including criticisms which might challenge the very legitimacy of the confessional State of Israel.

Once again, it is not relevant in this context to argue whether the criticisms of whatever sort are justified, or what are the merits of various possible options. The point is, none of these differences about Israel or about who may or may not support what options are in any way relevant to the charge of antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 10:03 AM

I've always been pro-Israel. I condemn people who call for Israel to be wiped off the map. Whatever our take on the history, we are, as they say, where we are, and it behoves us to try to promote the wellbeing and security of the eight million people, all of them, Jews and non-Jews, who live there, by now almost all of them BORN there, lest we forget. No-one chooses where to get born. I believe that arguing against settlements, against an apartheid wall, against constant bellicose incursions into neighbouring territories and against the blatant discrimination against minorities, that I am condemning the regime but supporting the ordinary Israeli citizens, because I'm arguing for solutions, which may well involve compromises, that will eventually increase that wellbeing and security. When I talk about pro-Israel lobbies, I'm talking about organisations who actively support or promote the policies of the regime in Israel. I am not talking about Jews. There are plenty of non-Jews in pro-Israel lobby groups. They will tell you that they are supporting the Israeli people, but what they are actually doing is arguing for the perpetuation of hostilities between Israel and its neighbours by supporting the injustices that take place in the country. AIPAC in particular, which hovers like a hawk over US politicians, makes sure that there will be no meaningful peace talks because they do not recognise any need for compromises. And why would they, when the US provides three billion dollars' worth of military aid per annum with absolutely no conditions attached. All that aid for a country of eight million. Feeling secure must be long way off for most Israelis. One day they'll look at their own regime and see why.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 10:14 AM

"That is an ambiguous sentence. A)On the one hand it could be that he is accused of saying that any Jewish organisation, by virtue of being Jewish must automatically be "pro-Israel". "
Which is why I have specified the present regime
I don't believe there are Jewish organisations that are pro-Israel - I believe there are some Jews who support what i happening in Israel and others who don't.
I know for a fact that the Israel regime has present a huge amount of money in order to offset criticism of its actions regarding the Palestinians, and I also know that one of the tactics has been to expand the definition of "antisemitism" to include criticism of its own policy - that has been openly stated often enough.
Terms like "pro-Israel" are a shortcut - I have stated my attitude to the existence of the State of Israel and my own family history in supporting that State - and my own experience through my own personal contact with politically inclined Jewish people - this is why I become angry when I am accused of being antisemitic, especially by somebody who adopts the coward stance of Bobad, who refuses to respond to why I and others say, but just pours out his vitriolic accusations from his position of anonymity.
When push comes to shove, the "Jewish" side of this argument is immaterial; as far as I am concerned, the proven behaviour of the Israeli regime would be unacceptable if anybody were to adopt it.
Making that behaviour "Jewish", as they have, has, as far as I am concerned, have added their own antisemitism to the equation.
I'm totally with my near mother-in-law, a Holocaust survivor (who I knew within 20 years of her ordeal) - "Never again - not to anybody".
As much as he and I differed on some points, I will remind people of Mike Grosvenor Myers (MtheGM), summing up of his own feeling, as a Jew, of what he felt about what happened to Israel - one of his last postings to this forum.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 10:53 AM

Steve,
You are both lying and trolling now, Keith. Joining in with your silly games is beneath my dignity.

I have not lied.
You claimed that a "pro-Israel lobby" was inventing the anti-Semitism issue to discredit the Labour Party, and were also influencing governments.

I can provide quotes.

There are plenty of non-Jews in pro-Israel lobby groups.
Not many actually.

Jim,

If it quacks, it's probably a duck, if someone talks about Jewish plots, they are probably antisemites, as are those who support him.

What about someone who talk about "pro-Israel lobby" plots, and those who support him Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 11:54 AM

Just go away. Your input into this thread is so below the standard required for proper discussion that it would be unbelievable coming from anyone except you.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 12:20 PM

would be unbelievable coming from anyone except you.

Well, there is Bubo, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 12:53 PM

"I can provide quotes."
You always say this - you never do.
"You claimed that a "pro-Israel lobby" was inventing the anti-Semitism issue to discredit the Labour Party,"
If there was antisemitism in the Labour Party to any great degree, we would know exactly what it was.
You took it further than anybody I have ever come across by claiming a pact of silence by Jewish members of the Party - that is purely your own invention.
Not only is that antisemitic, but it is a clear indication that your concern is for an extremist right-wing regime and not for the Jewish people as a whole.
You are not going to walk past this one - not ever.
So far, the "antisemitism is only criticism of Israeli regime's behaviour towards the Palestinians - making the entire world antisemitic.
The links between the pro-Israeli propaganda campaign and these accusations have been clearly established.
Are you seriously suggesting that "pro-Israeli plots" is antisemitic?
The Israel's are not The Jews - any Jew who gets in their way is branded as "self hating".
I SUGGEST YOU READ THIS in full, without selectivity and without your usual attempts at distortion
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:02 PM

Steve, I am going nowhere.
You said I was lying, but you said exactly what I stated you did.
Perhaps you wish you had not said it.

Claiming such conspiracies is classic anti-Semitism straight out of the Protocols of Zion.

You claim that Western democracies are in the grip of these "lobbyists." You claim they have the US government in a" cast iron grip."
What leverage do they have Steve?
Is it from their control of the economy, the banks and the media?

It is not anti-Semitic to criticise Israel, but you have to be suspicious of those who only and always criticise Israel, while ignoring far worse rights abusers all around.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 02:10 PM

Jim,
claiming a pact of silence by Jewish members of the Party -

Not claimed by me. They reported it to the leadership who did make it public, instigating two much reported enquiries, and it was discussed by the NEC who were reported as saying how appalled they all were.
Smeeth has spoken to the press and the media.

The links between the pro-Israeli propaganda campaign and these accusations have been clearly established.

You mean they conspired to invent it, so I do not need to provide quotes to prove that you and Steve claim that!

You always say this - you never do. (produce quotes)

I have often pointed out that decent democracies know that all the stuff about Israeli atrocities and war crimes is just lying propaganda

Steve explained that fact thus,
"The main reason we have this facade of "friendly relations" with Israel is the disproportionate influence of the pro-Israel lobby" (28August, 6.11}

So he claims they conspire to influence governments, as I said.

Also, " a US that's in the cast iron grip of its pro-Israel lobby then" (28August 9.39)

I asked him several times what leverage they had, but he would not answer.

I expect it is their control of banks and the media.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 02:37 PM

As that Israeli minister said, it is no longer acceptable to accuse Jews of manipulating governments by their control of the banks and the media.

Steve and Jim only claim that our governments are manipulated by "the pro-Israel lobby," so that is all right then.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 02:56 PM

"Not claimed by me. "
Who else?"You mean they conspired to invent it, "
Prove it.
a reminder of exactly what you said
"I also believe they want it dealt within the Party to which they have devoted most of their lives."
"I have often pointed out that decent democracies "
One of your more pathetic efforts - we believe the silence of politicians rather than human rights groups, medical staff and independent witnesses - pathetic and a dishonest way to score points.
And you produce none now - what more proof do you need
Second and last chance - who has ever suggested that the Jewish group within the Labour Party has taken a vow of silence - apart from yourself?
I don't know how you have the gall to accuse somebody of Antisemitism after you have claimed that the Jewish Parliamentarians - to a man and woman - have placed their Party above the interest of the Jewish People
You are a raving antisemite to make such a suggestion.
Where is your evidence for this claim?
Nobody here targets Israel for Ethnic or cultural reasons - nobdy her as claimed all mal British Jew are "implanted" with anything - unlike.... well, you get the point.
That other people commit atrocities is immaterial to this argument - you shed crocodile tears about the people of Homs and went on to defend Assad' being sold ammunition and equipment - and even proposed that it wuld be o.k. if that was all we sold him.
There is something very appalling to see victims of extreme atrocities then committing atrocities on others.
It is also galling when these same people target British politicians to prevent a boycott of their goods.
Now comes a lorra-lorra denials
Won't wash any more - you and your two stooges have blown it here - you are all a bunch of antisemites.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 03:01 PM

Ha, ha, ha......this is epic.

(Los Angeles, October 14, 2016) -- StandWithUs is running an aerial advertisement at Desert Trip - a major music festival being held in Indio, California - with a message of peace and protest against the anti-Israel hate promoted by Roger Waters.

A plane will fly above the crowd during the musician's October 16th performance, with a lit banner that says "Support Israeli-Palestinian Peace, Not Hateful Boycotts". It will be visible from 9:30-10:30pm

StandWithUs CEO Roz Rothstein previously wrote in a statement to Rolling Stone, "Waters' history of racism includes projecting the Star of David (the universal symbol of the Jewish people) onto a pig during concerts, waxing conspiratorial about the "Jewish lobby" and making slanderous, dehumanizing statements about Israelis. Waters also wholly ignores violent racism against Israelis by Palestinian political and religious leaders, and whitewashes the murder of innocent civilians that follows this abhorrent incitement."

She noted that, "as a leading spokesperson for the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) Movement, Waters promotes an agenda that undermines hopes for a just peace between Israelis and Palestinians. BDS actively discourages cultural exchanges between the two peoples, effectively seeks to censor Israeli artists, and has been overwhelmingly condemned for promoting violations of academic freedom. BDS's ultimate goal is the elimination of Israel and the violation of Jewish rights to self-determination — just ask their co-founder, (Omar Barghouti) who has said that 'we oppose a Jewish state in any part of Palestine.' Indeed, the core of BDS is not reasoned criticism of Israeli policy, but rather the notion that Palestinians can't be free without turning the Jews back into a stateless people."

StandWithUs decided to run its aerial advertisement after reports that Waters used his first Desert Trip performance on October 9th to promote the anti-Israel boycott campaign.

Rothstein concluded that, "a better future for Israelis and Palestinians requires mutual recognition and mutual respect, not the bigotry and division that Waters is unfortunately perpetuating. We will continue to support justice, peace, and coexistence for all peoples in the region, and oppose destructive political interests that single out Israel, while hurting Israelis and Palestinians alike."

About StandWithUs

StandWithUs (SWU) is a fifteen year-old, international, non-profit Israel education organization. Through fellowships, conferences, materials, social media, educational films and missions to Israel, StandWithUs supports people around the world who want to educate their campuses and communities about Israel.

Based in Los Angeles, SWU has 18 chapters throughout the United States, in Israel, Canada, the U.K. and Australia.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 03:14 PM

McGrath of Harlow - 15 Oct 16 - 09:03 AM

As someone who at times is more than a tad pedantic and semantic Kevin I would like to point out to you that Jim Carroll did not say pro-Israel he said pro-Israeli Now Israel is the State, an Israeli on the other hand is an inhabitant of the State of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:44 PM

The bloody meaningless waffle emanating from these three hateful desperados is just unbelievable. Why don't we just leave them to it? They lie, they cheat, they misrepresent. I've got better things to do than to spend seven-eighths of my time here putting them right and what's left of it trying to debate. Nice try, Kevin, but I tried to tell you that it was a waste of time. These threads will always be pointless until these three spiteful and nasty individuals are removed from this forum. But at least we tried, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:46 PM

I'd disagree with you on that point, Keith.

Israeli can indeed be a noun, referring to a single inhabitant of the country, with Israelis as the plural. It is similar in that way to Pakistani and Iraqi.

On the other hand it can be an adjective, referring to the nationality of a thing, an institution or person. Thus you have an Israeli government, an Israeli school, or an Israeli child, in the same way you have a French government, school or child.

I hope that's adequately semantic and pedantic...

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 06:20 PM

You may as well talk to a brick wall. They are not interested in your opinion. They use/abuse what you say to fuel their own grandstanded bigotry. I know they're not worth it. You can please yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 06:27 PM

That's it Kevin, just ignore him and maybe he'll go away, his whining is insufferable.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 06:40 PM

That's it Kevin, just ignore him and maybe he'll go away, his whining is insufferable.

As is yours, but to an even greater degree, Bubo.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 06:44 PM

I believe in playing the ball, rather than the man, Steve and Greg. I have no expectation or intention of trying to change the minds of people who may have made a point that I decide to address.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 06:49 PM

Then why the hell bother, Kevin? Ya can't educate pork.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 07:33 PM

Get my ideas sorted out. And of course the only people who read posts aren't the people who write them.

Pigs incidentally are very intelligent animals.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 07:58 PM

Pigs incidentally are very intelligent animals.

Definately moreso than several individuals here I could name.

My apologies to the porcine creation.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 08:35 PM

It's very depressing, but screwed-up trolls such as Keith and bobad are always gleefully waiting in the wings to derail these threads. Reasonable discussion is not possible.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 08:45 PM

It can be difficult at times, but it is quite possible. The essential thing is to deal with the issue and avoid personal arguments - as Tony Benn said so frequently, and as Jeremy Corbyn has also said on many occasions.

Worrying about personal attacks is a complete waste of energy. And so is making them, even if they actually might be deserved.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 11:32 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 05:06 AM

"Wow, you guys, someone look up "Jew-baiting". This thread is odoriferous."
By th way Robo - the offr I made to Bobad, which he has not taken up, is extended to you or anybody sharing your views.
If you can produce a shred of evidence of my attacking The Jewish People I am happy to make a generous donation to a charity of your choice.

Jim Carroll"


Jim: I do not think you need to make me such an offer nor do I need to engage it. The incredible capacity of the English language that we share makes this a subject that we can discuss with such great shadings that we can make convincing arguments from both sides of a divide without actually achieving anything or exchanging valid memes whatsoever.

I feel a certain gratitude to everyone on this thread, at least the first twenty posts or so, because whether or not I agree with 'em, I think they establish understandable points of view which are useful referents for me in future.

I am not qualified, either at present or most likely ever, to judge the various arguments about anti-semitism in the Labour Party, although before this thread came along, I'd read some New York Times references to the issue, and came away with the impression that there was something to it.

But anti-Semitism isn't illegal in the U.S. and it is an existing long-lived point of view. I'd rather it be out in the open than hidden with the easy modulations of terms like 'Restricted' as shown in the interesting American Post-War movie with Gregory Peck: "Gentlemen's Agreement", or the English(?) movie of the 70s "QBVII". You don't have to like Israel, Jews, Arabs, or anybody. It's a fact of life that Jews have lived with since Adam was a cowboy. There's even a Jewish joke about it: "Definition of an Anti-Semite- One who hates Jews more than absolutely necessary"
I think it would be nice if on one hand non-Jews understand that for Jews, anti-Semitism is an enormous body of thought that constitutes its own religion and like electricity goes everywhere in its search for earth. Like Donald Trump, it does not need to identify with either truth or lie, so much as ANY argument at all that will appear to carry weight. It is motivational, based on enmity. It does not see itself as evil, but aspirational. On the other hand, I think it wise for Jews to remember that not every unagreeable face need be an enemy face. People are various. There are good people everywhere in every guise.

That is why rather than engage in a mare's nest of thrust and counter-thrust with people who are not inevitably evil, I try very hard to keep things simple. I also try not to burn bridges at the drop of a hat, even on the internet. At this point I'm tired and not very sure how well I'm communicating. So here endeth the lesson fer now.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 03:16 AM

Steve Shaw - 15 Oct 16 - 05:44 PM

The following is an example of reasonable debate and discussion according to the above, from a Labour Party Member, a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn and a former Union activist:

"The bloody meaningless waffle emanating from these three hateful desperados is just unbelievable. Why don't we just leave them to it? They lie, they cheat, they misrepresent."

The only problem is Shaw and his pals cannot counter this "supposed" meaningless waffle with any reasonable argument or fact of their own. Those he refers to as "these three hateful desperados" are hateful because he is far to used to discussing things with sheep who hang off his every utterance and like all good little "socialists" never give any indication of straying from the Party line. Finally as for the last bit of that quote - "They lie, they cheat, they misrepresent." - This has become Shaw's standard accusation, yet when asked for examples of such for some reason he can never provide any.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 04:12 AM

Steve, you have reverted to unfounded personal attack instead of any attempt at discussion.
If you have nothing to say on the issues then why post at all?

Labour anti-Semitism was again the lead item on BBC R4 news today, so not yet a dead subject Steve.

BBC,
"Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has not done enough to tackle anti-Semitism in the party, a committee of MPs has said.

The Home Affairs Select Committee report criticised him for a lack of "consistent leadership" on the issue, which it said benefited people with "vile attitudes" towards Jewish people."

So the accusations from Labour members were genuine, and all your silly denials are rubbished.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 04:18 AM

"Jim: I do not think you need to make me such an offer nor do I need to engage it."
Nor do you need to sling your accusations of "antisemitism" about - that doesn't stop you from doing so
"It's a fact of life that Jews have lived with since Adam was a cowboy."
Interesting statement from someone from the U.S. - remind me how long the Native Americans occupied your continent.
Liking or disliking people or religions doesn't come into this argument; it's a matter of how we react to others as human beings - which is exactly what this is all about.
We could have sat on our hands and done nothing when Hitler began persecution the Jews - in Britain's and America's case, our political administrations did - here in Britain, some took to the streets to prevent it happening there - my family among them - my father went to war in 1937 and became a "premature anti-fascist" according to MI5 - his life was ruined for nearly two decades for his doing so.
I get involved in these arguments because I agree totally with the Holocaust survivor friend who once told me "never again - not for anybody".
If you believe me to be an antisemite, as you have said -have the good manners to justify your accusation - otherwise, don't make it.
We have far too many trolls on this forum as it is.
We also have a tiny band of genuine antisemites who are prepared to put the interests of an extremist right-wing administration over those of The Jewish People as a whole (including the "self-hating" ones) - how about commenting on them instead of backing them up?

Bobad
Your (uncredited) quotes are the opinions of an extremist propaganda organisation called 'STAND WITH US', a open supporter of and propagandist for the Israeli administration with direct ties to that regime.
It's activities were commented on recently in Hollywood's Billboard Magazine
"In response to an open letter in Billboard Magazine by the Creative Community for Peace (CCFP) titled "200 Hollywood Heavyweights Support Israel", some media and activists asked whether Hollywood stars like Ziggy Marley, Seth Rogen and Sarah Silverman were aware that the "Creative Community for Peace" was "a sanitizing front for the right-wing, pro-settler organization StandWithUs, that has deep ties to the Israeli government"
It is particularly interesting to note the international nature of their activities - tends to put the accusation made against the Labour Party into context.
How remiss of you not to mention its source!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 08:19 AM

From Carroll's link:

StandWithUs is a non-profit pro-Israel education and advocacy organization based in Los Angeles. StandWithUs describes itself as an international, non-profit organization that believes that education is the road to peace.

I presume it is the "pro-Israel" part that sets him off in a fit of apoplexy. It appears he would rather be educated by a letter to Billboard Magazine.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 08:25 AM

We now have the the powerful home affairs select committee report on anti-Semitism in Labour.
The acting chair of the committee told Andrew Marr today that Chakrabarti's report was a "whitewash" and "not worth the paper it was printed on."
Guardian,
"Jeremy Corbyn has come under strong personal attack from a cross-party committee of MPs investigating the growth of antisemitism for helping to create a safe space for people with "vile attitudes towards Jewish people".

In a damning indictment of the party and its leader, the powerful home affairs select committee claims that Corbyn's lack of action "risks lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionally antisemitic". In the report, published on Sunday , Labour is said to have been "demonstrably incompetent" in dealing with incidents of anti-Jewish abuse.

An inquiry into antisemitism in Labour carried out by Shami Chakrabarti on the orders of Corbyn earlier this year is described as "ultimately compromised". Its independence was thrown into doubt by Chakrabarti's acceptance of a peerage and a job in the shadow cabinet, the committee writes.
   
The MPs criticise Chakrabarti for describing antisemitic abuse as merely "unhappy incidents", and note her failure to respond to requests for a timeline proving that there was no connection between her elevation to the Lords and her inquiry. They write: "Ms Chakrabarti has not been sufficiently open with the committee about when she was offered her peerage, despite several attempts to clarify this issue with her.""

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 08:29 AM

"I presume it is the "pro-Israel" part that sets him off in a fit of apoplexy."
Nope - the bit about the links to the Israeli propaganda campaign does.
You deliberately don't link your quotes since you were sussed out selecting from extremist Islamophobic sites like 'Muslim Watch' and 'White Supremacist'
This is just another from another Extremist propaganda site.
Old habits die hard, as they say.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 09:00 AM

To Jew haters anything pro Israel is extremist propaganda so I take your categorization as confirmation.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 09:02 AM

Better you should take a hike, already.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 09:44 AM

you were sussed out selecting from extremist Islamophobic sites like 'Muslim Watch' and 'White Supremacist'

Lol.......med time again.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 12:10 PM

Whatever else antisemitism means, it has to involve some element of antagonism to Jews.

People who are antisemitic are indeed likely be to hostile to Israel (though not always - there are antisemites who welcome the existence of Israel, and would like to see all Jews go there).

But it is perfectly possible to be strongly critical of Israel, and of those who support it uncritically, and to do so without any hint of antagonism to Jews. That is demonstrated by many examples of Jews who fall into this category. This even extends to those whose criticism extends to being opposed to the existence of the political entity of Israel, once again including Jews who hold this view. The same applies in the case of any other country. (For example, those who favour Scottish independence and Irish reunification are opposed to the existence of Great Britain and the United Kingdom, without any assumption that they are antagonistic to any inhabitants of the country.)

It is perfectly fair for supporters of Israel to argue that their views are right, and that those who disagree are wrongheaded, irrational or unjust. But it is not in any way fair or logical to assert that being critical of Israel or opposed to those who support Israel is in itself any kind of proof of antisemitism. Only if there are grounds for believing that the basis for such criticism and hostility arises from antagonism to Jews can that assertion be justified.

And those grounds appear to be completely absent in everything that I have ever seen about the claim to identify antisemitism within Labour. No matter who makes that claim, Mudcatter or Member of Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 12:43 PM

"It is perfectly fair for supporters of Israel to argue that their views are right, "
Only if it's done on the basis of their directly addressing the actions in The 'Human Rights' and criminality context rather than that the crimes against human rights that have undoubtedly been committed in defence of Israel or the Jewish People - a war crime is a war crime, whoever commits it.
Just as it would be wrong to describe these crimes as "Jewish" (the Israeli regime does this by claiming criticism of them is "antisemitic"), it would be equally wrong to defend them as justified bcause they are committed by Israelis or Jews.
Hopefully, we don't describe war crime committed by British Troops as anything but that because they are committed by troops acting on behalf of Britain - why should Israel, or any nation be different?   
It will be interesting to see the outcome of Theresa May's present efforts to absolve the British Army from charges of WAR CRIMES, especially in the light of possibility of possible charges over IRAQ
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 12:50 PM

Those are the kind of things it would be perfectly fair to argue about.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 12:57 PM

But it is perfectly possible to be strongly critical of Israel, and of those who support it uncritically, and to do so without any hint of antagonism to Jews.

This point keeps being made even though no-one challenges or disagrees with it.

However, are you not suspicious of people who single out Israel for attack, always and only criticising Israel while ignoring much worse rights abusers all around Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 02:13 PM

Precisely the same point was made Keith against anti-apartheid campaigners. Since when white South Africans are mostly not Jewish it wasn't possible to draw the conclusion that the attention paid by us arose from anti-semitism. Undoubtedly if they had been, that charge woulf have been made.

As I pointed out, there has to be some other basis for the charge.

The only basis on which these accusations are being made is in fact criticism of Israel, of its policy or its legitimacy, and of those who support Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 02:56 PM

"However, are you not suspicious of people who single out Israel for attack, always and only criticising Israel while ignoring much worse rights abusers all around Israel?"

No I am not. If we are discussing Israeli policy, it is perfectly valid to criticise it without having to go round the world comparing Israel with everyone else. There is no double standard. In other contexts we criticise US foreign policy, Assad, the Brexit liars, Thatcher's neofascism, Blair's lying warmongering, Putin's hubristic manipulations, and, well, a lot more. Insisting that we always criticise someone else as well every time we criticise Israeli policy IS the double standard. You are guilty of that, and, in so doing, you are being antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 03:14 PM

"However, are you not suspicious of people who single out Israel for attack,"
Given Israel' track record of of massacres, human rights abuses and attempts to set up an apartheid state - why should anybody be suspicious of criticising such a State?
Nobody ignores other abusers except maybe the " decent democracies" who sell them arms and pay their respects to dead despots while a journalist is being given 1,000 lashes for speaking out of turn.
ASSAD'S HENCHMEN LIVE IN LUXURY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 08:15 PM

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 04:18 AM

"Jim: I do not think you need to make me such an offer nor do I need to engage it."
Nor do you need to sling your accusations of "antisemitism" about - that doesn't stop you from doing so
I used the term "Jew-baiting" because I was seeing what had begun as some interesting comments degenerating into repetitive ad-hominem attacks including some scatology which I did not think was helpful or appropriate. I used no names and did not accuse you of "antisemitism". (However "the guilty flee where no man pursueth")

"It's a fact of life that Jews have lived with since Adam was a cowboy."
Interesting statement from someone from the U.S. - remind me how long the Native Americans occupied your continent.
In Alaska they imply that it's forever. Practically speaking their practical options would be to be to have either Russian or English as their lingua franca. What happened to many natives under various Christian school systems to take away their language and culture wasn'
t pretty. What happened to the Aleuts under the Russians was even less so.

Liking or disliking people or religions doesn't come into this argument; it's a matter of how we react to others as human beings - which is exactly what this is all about.
Sounds very nice but refer to the thread title and OP.

We could have sat on our hands and done nothing when Hitler began persecution the Jews - in Britain's and America's case, our political administrations did - here in Britain, some took to the streets to prevent it happening there - my family among them - my father went to war in 1937 and became a "premature anti-fascist" according to MI5 - his life was ruined for nearly two decades for his doing so.
I get involved in these arguments because I agree totally with the Holocaust survivor friend who once told me "never again - not for anybody".
I find this honourable. Obviously not you, but The English have a long sad streak of antisemitism for the last few hundred years but it was an English antisemtism ("we don't like 'em but we don't believe in killing them") which I find rather touching-no joke. The English played a major part in saving Jews after Hitler assumed Chancellorship and the Nazis started passing a huge range of anti-Jewish legislation. I once found myself studying in a legal library which had some of these legal books on their shelves.

If you believe me to be an antisemite, as you have said -have the good manners to justify your accusation - otherwise, don't make it.
We have far too many trolls on this forum as it is.
Agreed. But I made my comment on the appearance of things to me and did not accuse anyone specifically of being antisemitic because it can become an entry to a hall of mirrors. Remember my feeling is that may people who do not like Jews have often become moral heroes when it comes to action. The people who helped feed Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto were often criminals who sold them food and weapons, but without them fewer would have survived or been able to die fighting.

We also have a tiny band of genuine antisemites who are prepared to put the interests of an extremist right-wing administration over those of The Jewish People as a whole (including the "self-hating" ones) - how about commenting on them instead of backing them up?
Are you making a reference to those who support the State of Israel in these forums beyond what you consider justified? We may not agree in all particulars but that does not lessen our common humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 08:46 PM

This is not about "supporting the state of Israel." It is about supporting the actions of successive Israeli regimes, with reference to their behaviour towards Palestinians in particular though not exclusively. Gargantuan efforts have been made by several of us in this forum to make that distinction crystal clear. Your final reference, which includes the remark "beyond what you consider justified" seems to show that you are failing to avoid that conflation and are, therefore, falling into the Keith/Bobad/Teribus trap of seeing any criticism of "Israel" as antisemitic. Let's hope that it's accidental in your case.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 02:50 AM

If we are discussing Israeli policy, it is perfectly valid to criticise it without having to go round the world comparing Israel with everyone else.

Yes, but if they only ever attack Israel, you have to wonder why.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 04:07 AM

"Yes, but if they only ever attack Israel, you have to wonder why."
You are in Dalek mode again Keith
I repeat
Given Israel' track record of of massacres, human rights abuses and attempts to set up an apartheid state - why should anybody be suspicious of criticising such a State?
Nobody ignores other abusers except maybe the " decent democracies" who sell them arms and pay their respects to dead despots while a journalist is being given 1,000 lashes for speaking out of turn.
Have the good grace not to repeat something as f your question had not been answered - honesty really isn't difficult once you get the hang of it.
You and your mates are the only ones who have consistently justified persecution and mass-murder on this forum.
I'll answer your thoughtful points when I have time Robo - thanks for making them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 05:55 AM

Given Israel' track record of of massacres, human rights abuses and attempts to set up an apartheid state - why should anybody be suspicious of criticising such a State?

Informed, intelligent people understand that those accusations are just lying propaganda from Israel's enemies, otherwise Israel would be a pariah nation among decent, liberal democracies.
It is not.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 06:39 AM

"It is about supporting the actions of successive Israeli regimes, with reference to their behaviour towards Palestinians in particular though not exclusively."

The behaviour of successive Israeli regimes towards "Palestinians" has been formed to a great extent by the threats and actions of "Palestinians" against the population of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 06:48 AM

Irrelevant. I was clarifying what I took to be a conflation by robomatic of two separate notions (though I may be doing said person an injustice), not starting all that up again. Do focus.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:23 AM

"understand that those accusations are just lying propaganda from Israel's enemies,"
Then they would be up in arms defending Israel, not keeping silnt about it.
Can you actually produce anything from "Informed, intelligent people" actually defending Sabra Shatila, or the massacres of Palestinian civilians ovr the last few incursions, or the persistent seizures of land that continues to take place, or the use of chemical and anti personnel weapons... of coure you can't.
The only pathetic defence you have offered is their silence and even that is coming to an end
RECENT GAZA INCURSION
U.S. CONDEMNS GAZA SCHOOL ATTACK
U.S. OPPOSES SEIZURE of LAND
HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS
It is spinelessly dishonest to claim the silence of politicians is tantamount to support.
If Israel had any real supporters, they would be denouncing the torrent of world criticim in the pres and from Himan Rights organisations and eye witnesses.
"has been formed to a great extent by the threats and actions of "Palestinians" against the population of Israel."
Every tyrant in history from the Nazis down, have claimed "self-defence" for their atrocities - Israel is only the last in a long line.
The maps 'then and now' maps you have chosen to ignore make it quite clear who is the aggressor and who the victim as do the massive discrepancy between the casualties.
Israel is a sophisticated, well armed and nuclear facilitated power seeking to expand its territory opposed by a poorly armed, poorly trained impoverished state defending their rapidly disappearing homes
Israel PLANS LARGEST LAND SEIZURE SINCE 2014
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:54 AM

Once again - arguments about whether criticicisms made of Israel and of those who oppose those criticisms are justified are completely irrelevant in this context. The only relevant issue is whether people who make such criticisms are motivated by antisemitism.

My contention is that making such criticisms is not in itself evidence of antisemitism. Such criticisms could indeed be motivated by antisemitism, but in order to make that charge some kind of evidence is essential, and I haven't seen any.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:59 AM

Given Israel' track record of of massacres, human rights abuses and attempts to set up an apartheid state - why should anybody be suspicious of criticising such a State?

One should be suspicious of the motives of anybody who disseminates such egregious calumnies.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 08:29 AM

"One should be suspicious of the motives of anybody who disseminates such egregious calumnies."
One should be suspicious of hysterical trolls who vomit accusations of Antisemitism whenever Israel is criticised then go on to defend Antisemitic attacks on Jewish Parliamentarians which accuses them of entering into a pact of silence to cover up antisemitism so as not to endanger their political careers - in essence, making their support for Labour more important then the well-bing of the Jewish People
This is what you supported Bobad.   
You have no interest in the Jewish People - your first love is the right-wing Israeli regime.
That goes for all three of you.
Israeli atrocities speak for them selves - we even watched the result on television two years ago
You are one of those people who hasn't the balls to become involved in real discussion - you settle for others doing the job for you while you egg them on from the sidelines.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 08:54 AM

Jim,
Can you actually produce anything from "Informed, intelligent people" actually defending Sabra Shatila, or the massacres of Palestinian civilians

No, because they do not hold Israel responsible for any massacres or war crimes.

Can you actually produce anything from "Informed, intelligent people" and decent liberal democracies actually accusing Israel of massacres or war crimes?

No.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 09:11 AM

"Every tyrant in history from the Nazis down, have claimed "self-defence" for their atrocities - Israel is only the last in a long line."

Sorry Jim do you want that list of Arab attacks on Jewish settlers and the attacks by Arabs against Israel since 1920 - there were no attacks by the Arabs of the region prior to the creation of the League of Nations Mandate because the Arabs of the region knew full well what their Ottoman rulers response would be - they'd have wiped them out without a second thought.

If 15,000+ missiles were fired into my country it would not take a Sherlock Holmes to deduce that my country was under attack or that any response mounted by the Government of my country would justifiably come under the categorisation of "Self-Defence".

Done any further work on the capability of a bulldozer to dig a mass grave Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 09:50 AM

Justin Amler

It seems everyone is an expert on Jews these days...except Jews!

We have a 70 year old organisation called UNESCO telling us about our history, even though we're 4000 years older than them.
We have the White House deciding that our 3000 year old capital isn't actually in Israel.
We have the US State Department informing us, the indigenous people of the area, that living in our own land is unaceptable, though I don't remember it being unacceptable to kick off the Native Americans from their own land.
We have the United Nations telling us what we need to do to achieve peace, even though they've never actually solved any conflicts themselves.
We have the European Union telling us how labelling tomatoes is the road to peace, even as their own members tear each other apart.
We have the Arab world...oy the Arab world... telling us about human rights, while their streets are filled with blood and conflict.

So, at the risk of being controversial, let me, a Jew, tell you about the Jews...

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 10:20 AM

The usual warmed-over BooSpew, false equivalence & irrelevance.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 10:29 AM

"Sorry Jim do you want that list of Arab attacks on Jewish settlers and the attacks by Arabs against Israel since 1920"
I know who attacked who and I have given you the casualty comparisons.
I have also give you the maps of territory losses
I am not interested in what happened nearly a century ago when this territory was part of the loot takn by the British Empire - it was not theirs to give away.
Your suggestion that the Arabs have no right to the territory is really no different to Shaz's suggestion that Israel; should be moved to America.
The missiles fired into Israel don't even measure up to the dead massacred at sabra Shatile, never mind those who died before or since - they are a pitiful; response to attempted ethnic cleansing by a nuclear facilitated, well armed power - David sling against Goliath armed strength, to use a Biblical comparison
The ratio of Palestinian/Israeli deaths deaths of in the present decade is 8 to 1 - so much for what happened a century ago.
This is a war for territory by Israel - it is not defensive - look at the maps
AN ISRAELI JEW'S ACCOUNT OF THE CONFLICT
"Bregman describes Israel as "a heavy‑handed and brutal occupier". He regards the four decades of occupation chronicled in this book as a black mark on Israeli, and indeed, Jewish history. He finds it depressing that a people that has suffered such unspeakable tragedies of its own can behave so cruelly towards another. The only sign of hope in this otherwise bleak picture is that the occupation may carry within it the seeds of its own demise. By forcing the Palestinians to live in squalor, Bregman concludes, Israel has "hardened those under its power, making them more determined to put an end to the occupation, by violent means if necessary, and live a life of dignity and freedom"."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:04 AM

Casualty comparisons? WTF have they got to do with it? The fact that the Arabs of the region are piss poor at waging war should direct them towards a peaceful resolution, but they appear to be on an extremely long learning curve.

On the subject of Maps Jim, where is the one drawn up by Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah or the Palestine Authority that shows the borders of this two-state solution they keep lying to the United Nations about. You know it does not exist and I know it does not exist, their avowed aim is to destroy the State of Israel and annihilate its population.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:09 AM

the Arabs of the region are piss poor at waging war

Perhaps if the had the billions in financial & military & tactical aid the U.S. regularly doles out to the Israeli government they'd be a bit better at it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:23 AM

No they wouldn't Greg, they used to be given all the help and all the technical aid and support that the U.S.S.R/Russia could deploy and yet they still lost. The "Armies" of the Arab States in the region are not there to defend their countries from foreign invasion they are there to suppress the civilian populations of their own countries. If you doubt that then look at their track record.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:37 AM

"On the subject of Maps Jim, where is the one drawn up by Hamas, "
Wha....??
Aren't the official ones enough for you.
You're as pathetic as your mate
You are the one who disputes casualty figures before you decide if it's a massacre worth condemning.
I should have thought the 1,462 civilians 495, children and 253 women.
in the last round of butchery would have been enough for anybody - not for you massacre appeasers apparently.
ANOTHER ISRAELI VIEW ON THE REGIME
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:44 AM

they used to be

There's your problem, Colonel- you're talking "used to be" and I'm talking now.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 12:38 PM

"Given Israel's track record of of massacres, human rights abuses and attempts to set up an apartheid state - why should anybody be suspicious of criticising such a State?"
How does this not describe the Palestinian's behavior toward their own people--as well as their stated intention toward Israel and its inhabitants?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 12:38 PM

Arguments abouts the rights and wrongs of Israel and Palestine are completely irrelevant to a discussion about "antisemitism" in the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 12:52 PM

Loose use of terms such as "Israel''s" and "the Palestinian's" [sic] is not helpful. Ordinary Israelis and Palestinians are not the prime movers in this conflict. Talk about their leaders instead.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 03:51 PM

Talk about their leaders

True in the context of discussions about the situation in that part of the world.

But of course, talking about their leaders in itself has nothing whatsoever to do with identifying whether there is any actual basis for accusations of "anti-semitism" in the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 03:59 PM

True. Though you didn't exactly specify the Labour Party in your thread title. Hey ho.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 05:12 PM

Also true - but the same logic applies to people of any party or none when they are accused of antisemitism. There has to be some indication that their attitude towards Israel is founded on hostility to Jews. With real anti-semites there would be no problem in demonstrating that.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 05:42 PM

Absolutely agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 05:55 PM

"How does this not describe the Palestinian's behavior toward their own people-"
Does -t - are the Palestinians actually attempting to ethnically cleanse each other or create an apartheid State?
Sounds like a nasty dose of schizophrenia to me
Are you really suggesting that the Palestinians have a track record of massacring each other
I'm afraid I'll have to sleep on that one!!
"as well as their stated intention toward Israel and its inhabitants?"
Palestine is fighting a defensive battle - is nobody going to refer to the territory that has been taken from them.
I've mentioned this before, but the 'terrorism' attributed to the Palestinians is really no different than that used by Israeli Freedom Fighters against Britain and Palestinians
You really should read Jewish Historian Benny Morris
If one group were terrorists, so were both
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 06:57 PM

Jim, go back to the history books. The Zionists bought land from its owners, the Ottomans. The Palestinians were tenant farmers. They never had title to the land. The Palestinians [sic] committed pogroms and murders far back prior to and during the British Mandate. The Mufti of Jerusalem made common cause with the Nazis to kill the Jews. Fortunately, they were unsuccessful.
Which part of the region has the most freedom? Which part of the region kills or imprisons its journalists if they attempt to speak the truth? Which part of the region holds elections on a regular basis? Which part of the region has full citizens of several religions? Which part of the region has ever made an honest attempt at peace?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:20 PM

Historical context is a bitch, department . . .

Einstein moved from Germany to Princeton, N.J. in 1933.

In 1939 Princeton students voted him second greatest man.
For greatest man, Princeton students voted for Adolf Hitler.
(For third, Neville Chamberlain)

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:41 PM

There is a further twist to this however - the possibility of a kind of secondary antisemitism, where someone who has no kind of antagonism towards Jews, but who is strongly critical of Israel, could be trapped into accepting the claim that Israel and the Jewish diaspora are essentially one, and on that basis could develop a kind of antagonism towards all Jews.

Insofar as this may happen some of the responsibility for that lies with those who promote this claim on behalf of Israel, and in doing so risk actually promoting secondary anto-semitism - but clearly this kind of secondary anti-semitism is totally unacceptable and irrational. Whenever it might arise it should be countered by those whose criticism of Israel are not corrupted in this way.

I would take it that this is what the current moral panic around the Labour Party is primarily about. However the existence of many articulate and dedicated Jews among those most active in criticising what Israel has become militates very strongly against that kind of development, and there appears to be very little evidence of it actually being present to any real extent. Accusations of anti-semitism have certainly not been restricted to those who may have fallen into that trap.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:46 PM

Which part of the region has ever made an honest attempt at peace? Well, the word "honest" is key, isn't it? Every set of peace talks between Palestinians and successive Israeli regimes has been a sham. Why?   Because there has never been the slightest motivation for the Israeli regime to offer even the tiniest compromise. Why? Because they have always been able to do exactly, and in full, whatever they wanted to do. Land grabs, invasions, repression, massacres, apartheid wall... The nation that gives them by far the most aid, including three billion per annum for their military (for a country of eight million), puts absolutely no conditions on that aid (AIPAC sees to that). Netanyahu could probably boil Gaza babies and eat them for lunch and his aid still wouldn't be threatened. Why would he dream of entering talks with the slightest prospect of his having to give a single inch when he knows he'll never have to?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 08:05 PM

The moral panic around the Labour Party is stoked only by disaffected ex-Blairites and Brownites and those outside the party with a dishonest agenda involving finding a focus for their faux-antisemitism. I've fought racism all my life and have been even fallen out with people very close to me about it. I am a Labour Party member. I am not going to belong to a setup that espouses any form of racism or other forms of discrimination. My bar is set pretty high apropos of that, though I've been around long enough to know that I can never expect perfection.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:33 PM

Land grabs - typical anti-Semitic trope
invasions - typical anti-Semitic trope
repression - typical anti-Semitic trope
massacres - typical anti-Semitic trope
apartheid wall - typical anti-Semitic trope

But, nah, he's not an anti-Semite he's just fond of disseminating lies to demonize a country and it's people, a country which is a model of democracy, tolerance, equality and individual rights whose neighbours are committed to it's annihilation and the genocide of it's Jewish population. But that doesn't seem to bother Shaw at all in his obsessive hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 03:36 AM

So Bobad has just put it in a nutshell
Criticism of Israeli policy is the "new racism" that is referred to in the Parliamentary report on The Labour Party.
Barnacle and Robo seem to go along with that - Robo appears to go as far as comparing Einstein to Hitler - have to say, I have never come across that one before!
The Labour politician, Naz Shah was cited as being antisemitic because she suggested that the Israelis be moved to America - she withdrew that statement, admitted that it was antisemitic and apologized for it - but that aside.
Now we have EBarnacle suggestions that the Palestinians have no right to land that has been occupied by them for many centuries - millenia even - because of a deal that was done between two Empires - a deal between two absentee landlords, as it would be recognised here in Ireland
Palestinians have no right to their land and, presumably, should be moved elsewhere.
Where does this differ in any way from Naz Shah's antisemitism - the mass eviction of an entire people, as B is suggesting (or even their being allowed to stay on out of kindness) is ethnic cleansing, pure and simple.
B. confirms that by holding up two religions and suggesting that one is more fit than the other to stay were they are, putting this conflict on a religious war footing based on "my sky fairy is better than your sky fairy".
This is utter, primitive nonsense.
Religion has no place here, and those who suggest it has are no better than Isis.
This is about people of two different cultures being allowed to live peacefully together without hindrance.
Today's reality cannot be infected by what happened when Palestine belonged to a rapacious Empire - God knows (pun intended) today's world has enough post-Empire problems without adding Israel to the list.
The situation is starkly simple - the Palestinians are where they are because of history
They are not going to move willingly, hopefully they will continue to resist any efforts to make them -
Just as hopefully, the present Israeli regime will not seek 'a final solution' - their record with refugees is not one of the best.
There are already 7.2 million Palestinian refugees scattered over this planet today, one in three refugees in the world are Palestinian.
1.4 million, one third of registered Palestinian refugees, live in the 58 UNRWA-recognised refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank - that does not include those not registered.
Are you people seriously suggesting that that number be added to because they pray to a different bogey-man?
As far as the Brirish Labour Party is concerned, the latest Parliamentary Report has let the cat out of the back by declaring that Labour is guilty of NEW RACISM - criticism of Israel, as far as they are concerned has now become antisemitism.
Isn't it a shame that Apartheid South Africa didn't thik that one up - they'd never have needed to pull out.
I'm sure Israel - the state that enouraged them to become nuclear weaponised - would have backed them up on that one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 04:52 AM

By the way Bobad
Equating Israeli behaviour with the Jewish People - typical anti-Semitic trope
Supporting a State that claims criticism of its actions are unchallenged and describes Israelis and Jews who do so as "Self-hating Jews"   - typically Fascism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 05:29 AM

Supporting a State that claims criticism of its actions are unchallenged and describes Israelis and Jews who do so as "Self-hating Jews"   - typically Fascism

Israel has never done any of those things.
Its neighbours, e.g. Turkey and Egypt, do lock up journalists critical of their governments, and in Russia they are gunned down in the streets, but Israel allows and welcomes criticism.
They have a free media. Haaretz is always criticising the government and their policies.
They have opposition parties in government whose job is to challenge the government, so your claims against Israel are false, and it begs the question, why do you not criticise those countries where it is true?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 06:11 AM

"Israel has never done any of those things."
Yes it has Keith - you can deny the statements made by the Israeli minister until you are blue in the face but that's what she said and that's what he meant.
She describes condemnation of Israeli policies as
THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
How many of these links do you want - there are pages of them?
The recent Labour report describes it as "the new Racism" - which amounts to the same thing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 06:17 AM

Neither Keith nor bobad are worth responding to. Don't let them get to you. Their loveless inhumanity is incurable. Anyway, this is going a bit mental in two threads at the same time, thanks to them, which isn't much good, to be honest.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 07:01 AM

"Don't let them get to you"
They don't, but their presence here is an extremely helpful reminder of Pro Israeli fanaticism at its most extreme.
Trolls are fine when you don't have to take them seriously
I'm afraid the current "new racism" accusation against Labour makes the two threads inseparable.
Mayv#b we should get this out of the way by agreeing that criticism is not antisemitic and if that is what Labour is guilty f, thre is no case to answer.
Then we can move on.
How about my contention that, by definition, it is antisemitic to attribute Israelis actions to the Jewish People, therefore it is antisemitic to accuse those who criticise Israel of antisemitism.
In the long run, this is what this is all about
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 07:07 AM

That's what I've just said on the other thread. Oops, sorry, Teribus. I didn't say it. I typed it. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 08:12 AM

According to Shaw the Jews invade their neighbours to massacre them - that is a blood libel worthy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Like MGM would say "you don't think you're an anti-Semite but you are".

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 08:34 AM

" that is a blood libel worthy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion."
Mumbo jumbo nonsense and not even accurate in Jewish lore.
Definition - "blood libel noun
an accusation that Jewish people used the blood of Christians in religious rituals, especially in the preparation of Passover bread, that was perpetrated throughout the Middle Ages and (sporadically) until the early 20th century."
That the Israelis massacred Palestinians who got in their way is beyond doubt and a matter of history.
The British left Palestine to the sound of occupied houses being cleared for settlement by hand-grenades being tossed in.
Israel has perpetrated and facilitated massacres throughout its history.
As far as I know, Steve has accused only Israelis of massacre - not the Jews.
Equating one with the other is antisemitic by definition
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:16 AM

Jim,
but that's what she said

No it is not.
She was talking about anti-Semites who direct their hate at Israel, and never suggested that anyone who criticises Israel is an anti semite.

It is undeniable, even by you, that Israel allows and welcomes criticism.

It is undeniable, even by you, that they have a free media. Haaretz is always criticising the government and their policies.

It is undeniable, even by you, that they have opposition parties in government whose job is to challenge the government, so your claims against Israel are false, and it begs the question, why do you not criticise those countries where it is true?
Why do you always and only single out Israel for your false claims and lying propaganda?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:23 AM

Finished Keith
She described criticism as the new antisemitism
All the links give exactly that as a headline
The is what she said, that is what she meant.
The same woman proposed total war against all Palestinians
End of story
The foreign minister I linked to and you have ignored proposed that all "disloyal Arabs" should be beheaded
Perhaps he meant only giving them a haircut!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:42 AM

If the powers that be here think that they are protecting freedom of speech by allowing bobad to come here making comments of that nature they are seriously deluded. Hate speech is in itself an attack on freedom of speech. I honestly don't think we should be responding to him, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 12:06 PM

Hate speech Shaw, like Land grabs, invasions, repression, massacres, apartheid wall... right. Let me remind the folks again who has been threatened with suspension from the forum more than once for hate speech.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 12:20 PM

He's really lost it this time. That has simply not happened. Mad as a box of frogs.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 12:43 PM

"Let me remind the folks again who has been threatened with suspension from the forum more than once for hate speech."
You mean you haven't
Yours are the mst vitriolic and cowardly postings on this thread, and your efforts to link Israel's crimes to the Jewish people make them the most antisemitic.
Duck - more vitriol on the way!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 01:11 PM

He's just lying, Jim. Had I been threatened for hate speech, which I have not, how would he know anyway? Desperate trollery from a liar who has abused people here via multiple identities. We can refer to him but I don't think there's any point taking him on. Perhaps one fine day he'll be history.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 01:23 PM

"He's just lying, Jim."
Didn't think for a moment he wasn't Steve
Inconceivable they should warn you and ignore his hate mail
ISRAELI DEMOCRACY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 01:30 PM

Still no one talking about the subject.

IShe was talking about anti-Semites who direct their hate at Israel, and never suggested that anyone who criticises Israel is an anti semite.

But the only evidence that they were antisemitic was the fact that they "direct their hate at Israel". Which is in practice how "antisemitism" seems to be defined within the current Labour Party moral panic.

So it's all right to criticise Israel if you aren't antisemitic - but if your criticisms are more than minor, that proves you are actually are antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 02:34 PM

Jim,
She described criticism as the new anti-Semitism

Yes. She said that now criticism of Jews is not acceptable, anti-semites turn their hate on Israel instead.

That is not saying that everyone who criticises Israel (like the media and the opposition parties, unlike in neighbouring regimes) are all anti-Semitic.

The same woman proposed total war against all Palestinians
The foreign minister I linked to and you have ignored proposed that all "disloyal Arabs" should be beheaded

Ha ha ha! You talk such ludicrous bollocks!

Kevin,
they "direct their hate at Israel". Which is in practice how "antisemitism" seems to be defined within the current Labour Party moral panic.

If that is true, tell us which examples of claimed Labour anti-Semitism was really just criticism of Israel.
Please do not ignore that reasonable request as you did last time you suggested this.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 02:46 PM

The statistics are shocking but not surprising: Antisemitism is on the rise in Britain

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 03:02 PM

"Ha ha ha! You talk such ludicrous bollocks!"
Don't expect for one moment yu will either apologiese or withdraw your remark
BEHEAD DISLOYAL ARABS
ALL PALESTINIANS LEGITIMATE TARGETS
You have had both of these, your denying them again make you the dishonest individual you are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 03:48 PM

So far as I have seen the examples of anti semitism in this context have all been essentially about criticism of Israel, or of people opposing those criticisms and defending Israel against such criticisms.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 05:35 PM

So far as I have seen the examples of anti-semitism in this context have all been essentially about criticism of Israel, or criticism of people who oppose those criticisms and who defend Israel against such criticisms. And my contention is that that is not evidence of anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 05:43 PM

"If that is true, tell us which examples of claimed Labour anti-Semitism was really just criticism of Israel."

Why, Keith, none other then your very favourite example, Naz Shah. She only mentioned Israel. Only since you asked.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 07:00 PM

Good link from bobad by the way ( ironic, eh? 😂😂😂) that shows the Tory scumbag Tim Loughton opportunistically homing in on Labour's " particular problems" with antisemitism. Loughton was, of course, the chairman of the select committee that delivered the antisemitism so-called report. Just thought I'd mention it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:53 AM

Kevin,
So far as I have seen the examples of anti semitism in this context (Labour Party) have all been essentially about criticism of Israel, or of people opposing those criticisms and defending Israel against such criticisms.

Really? I am not aware of any that were just criticism of Israel rather than anti-Semitism, so please give an example.

Steve,
Why, Keith, none other then your very favourite example, Naz Shah. She only mentioned Israel. Only since you asked.

She called for Jews to be transported out of the Middle East, and she and Corbyn acknowledged that her views were anti-Semitic, not just anti-Israel.
Have you got any example of accused anti-Semitism in Labour that was just legitimate criticism of Israel?
I think not.

Steve, anti-semites used to claim that Jews manipulate our governments.
Now that is not acceptable, they claim that a "pro-Israel lobby" manipulates our governments, just as you do.

You refuse to say what power they have over our governments.
The anti-semites used to claim that the Jews controlled the banks and the media. What is your version Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 06:03 AM

"She called for Jews to be transported out of the Middle East, "
She apologised, accepted it to be antisemitic and withdrew her statement
I assume we have finished with your "Bollocks" claim regarding the two Israeli extremist ministers.
Didn't expect an apology or a withdrawal - you don't do that sort of thing
Jim Carroll

Zionists have been calling for Palestinians to be expelled into neighbouring countries for years - here are a couple of spectacular example for you to deny
"Moshe Feiglin, a Knesset member from Netanyahu's ruling Likud Party, publicly called for the expulsion of all Palestinians from Gaza and their replacement with Jewish settlers, about as sparkling a call for ethnic cleansing as can be imagined.
Not to be outdone, Rabbi Dov Lior, spiritual guide of the illegal settlement Kiryat Arba took matters a step further. In an article from the Israeli press (Haaretz) the ultra-Orthodox rabbi issued a religious ruling permitting the total destruction of Gaza if Israel's military leaders deem it necessary. I believe that is called genocide. Yes, these are coming from the far-right of Israel's political spectrum, but that element is growing and its demented vision resonates with a growing number of Israelis."
From the COLORADO PROGRESSIVE JEWISH NEWS
20th July 2014

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 06:33 AM

Sorry - missed a bit
Keith denies this, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 06:39 AM

Shah, who was elected MP for Bradford West last May, shared a picture of Israel's outline superimposed on to a map of the US under the headline "Solution for Israel-Palestine Conflict – Relocate Israel into United States", with the comment "problem solved".

In the post shared in 2014 – nine months before Shah became an MP – it went on to say that Americans would "welcome Israelis with open arms" and that the relocation would bring peace to the Middle East by ending "foreign interference".

The post suggested the US had "plenty of land" to accommodate Israel as a 51st state, allowing Palestinians to "get their life and their land back".

Alongside the post, Shah added a smiley-face emoji and suggested she would lobby the prime minister to adopt the plan.

It added that Israeli people would be welcome and safe in the US, while the "transportation cost" would be less than three years' worth of Washington's support for Israeli defence spending.

Shah added a note suggesting the plan might "save them some pocket money".

Well, Keith, that's the whole yarn as reported faithfully by The Guardian. Seven mentions of Israel/Israelis and NOT ONE MENTION OF THE WORD JEWS.

Naz Shah was extremely stupid to make those remarks. But you can only be antisemitic if you mention Jews or imply that Jews as a people are responsible for the issues you're pointing to. It's quite clear from the above that her flippant remarks were aimed at the POLITICAL PROBLEMS caused by Israeli policies, which are determined by the ISRAELI REGIME. If she apologised for antisemitism she was doing it to save her own arse. There is nothing, NOTHING antisemitic in the above, yet this is your favourite example. It's a perfect example of your conflating criticism of Israeli regime policies with attacks on Jews because they are Jews. You're trying to impose your disreputable "wider definition" that makes Jews collectively responsible for the actions of their regime, which makes no more sense than making all Brits collectively responsible for invading Iraq. It does make you an antisemite. You are the enemy of Jewish people the world over.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 06:43 AM

And you lied by stating that she called for "Jews to be transported out of the Middle East." She said no such thing. Israel does not equal Jews. Further confirmation of that wicked conflation, and of why we should never trust a single word you ever utter.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 09:46 AM

Steve Shaw - 19 Oct 16 - 06:39 AM

"There is nothing, NOTHING antisemitic in the above, yet this is your favourite example.

What a pity for your argument that the person you referred to thought that the comments were anti-Semitic - Perhaps you can explain how on earth you can claim to know what is meant by someone better that they themselves can.

Naz Shah herself put her exposed anti-Semitism down to misinformation and ignorance on her part. She very publicly apologised for the remarks and withdrew them unreservedly no quibbles at all about Jews, Israelis or Israel - by her own admission her remarks were anti-Semitic - why do you, McGrath and Carroll insist that they were not.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 10:59 AM

I would suggest that Shah was not making a genuine proposal as to what should happen when she wrote that. Essentially she was trying to make a point about the hypocrisy of those who expect people in the Middle East to accept something which they would never accept for themself.

It was indeed a badly expressed way of making that point. Steve is correct however in pointing out that she was making no specifically antisemitic point. The fact that the predominant number of Israelis are Jewish is contingent - what was significant was that they are a population of settlers parachuted into a region, to displace and replace the existing population. Ironically of course, that is precisely how the United States came into exisrence.

However in the light of history, it was a very insensitive way of putting it, and she rightly apologised. The fact that she did not challenge the claim that it was antisemitic, while denying that she had any antisemitic intentions, merely indicated that she was willing to accept a definition of antisemitism which is very much open to challenge. Which in fact is what this thread is primarily about.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 11:03 AM

Well as I've pointed out to Keith in the past, when it suits you we lefties are dishonest, bigoted liars. Except when we say something that happens to suit your agenda, when we suddenly become inviolable holders of the sword of truth. Like Naz, I'm a leftie. I think she was stupidly wrong to make those remarks. I think she was right to apologise. I think she was wrong to apologise for their being antisemitic, because they were not. I can only think that she wanted to save her own arse. She wouldn't be the first politician to do that and she won't be the last. Even we principled lefties are not incapable of that.

And it's you lot quibbling, not me. It's you who want the definition broadened. She didn't mention Jews and she clearly didn't mean Jews. The problems she was suggesting solving (idiotically) were brought about by the Israeli regime, not by "the Jews."

Anyway, if you and Keithie think she was so correct in identifying antisemitism, why don't you solve your little definition problem and get Naz Shah to define antisemitism for you ? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 11:05 AM

That was directed at Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 11:34 AM

"why do you, McGrath and Carroll insist that they were not."
Can't speak for Mac, I insisted no such thing - I in fact pointed out that she apologised for it and admitted it was antisemitic for her so suggest it.
I certainly query whether it was, as it was not aimed at the Jewish People, but if it is, it in no worse than Israeli ministers demanding beheadings or a war against all Palestinians.
She has apologised, theirs remain as stated.
Please do not accuse me of holding opinions that I don't.
One thing about all this of course is that Shah did not invent this proposal, nor did she demand that it should be anything but voluntary - there has never been a suggestion that the Israelis should be expelled from the area.
The idea was first mooted by Jewish professor, NORMAN FINKLESTEIN a Holocaust survivor descendant and it was his map that has been reproduced in the press (without having been identified, of course).
It follows on from an early suggestion that Israel be made a STATE of the U.S. which would "enable them to relocate anywhere in America if they wished"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 12:55 PM

Have we finished here Teribus?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 09:54 PM

Nadiya Al-Noor
Yesterday at 11:36am ·

Israel is not above criticism. Like every country, it has its flaws, and we need to address them in order to make the country better. However, there are legitimate ways to criticize Israel's policies, and there's "criticism" that's actually seeped with antisemitism.

Here's how to tell if your "criticism" is actually antisemitism:

Demonization: Do you portray Israelis as monsters? As cold, unfeeling, hateful entities? Do you use common antisemitic tropes, such as "Israelis are gleefully killing children" "Israelis are stealing all the money" "Israel controls the world's media" "Zionism is racism" etc.?

Delegitimization: Do you target Israel's very existence? Do you say things like "Israel has no right to exist" "Jews have no roots in the area"?

Double-standards: Do you single out Israel for alleged human rights violations? Do you cry and scream about every little thing Israel does, but are largely silent about other conflicts and issues in the world? Do you make excuses for terrorism when Palestinians do it while wholeheartedly condemning Israeli violence?

And, most importantly, do you criticize to hurt Israel and her citizens, rather than aiming to find peaceful solutions that benefit everyone?

If you answered "yes" to any of the above, congratulations, you're an antisemite!

It's okay to criticize Israel, but only if it's legitimate criticism based in facts and with the intent to solve problems (which should be the rule for criticism in general).

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 02:19 AM

McGrath of Harlow - 19 Oct 16 - 10:59 AM

"I would suggest that Shah was not making a genuine proposal as to what should happen when she wrote that."

Hate to point this out to you Kevin but what "you suggest" she meant is irrelevant. The lady herself declared that SHE regarded and recognised her remarks as being anti-Semitic and stated that they were made in ignorance based on misinformation, and that Kevin is the alpha to omega of what Naz Shah said. No-one is interested in what others say to try and tidy that up and sanitise it.

In determining what is regarded as unacceptable and offensive, then the definition comes from the person or group suffering and noting the offence, it most certainly is not defined by those doing the offending.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 04:37 AM

"Do you portray Israelis as monsters? "
No - we present their leaders as monsters.
""Israelis are gleefully killing children"
No - who has?
" Do you target Israel's very existence? Do you say things like "Israel has no right to exist" "
No - who has?
"Do you single out Israel for alleged human rights violations?"
No - we point out that they occur when thy occur, as
we do with every other atrocity and injustice.
The fact that others commit atrocities dos not legitimise Israeli regime behavior.
"Do you make excuses for terrorism when Palestinians do it while wholeheartedly condemning Israeli violence?"
No - we deal with things that are happening as a whole - for instance, we point out that Palestinian terrorism is no different than the acts carried out in by the Israelis in order to win a homeland - most of my quot comne from Israelis and other Jews and from Human Rights Groups - they are my favourite source.
I never seek the opinions of politicians AND I HAVE NEVER USD THE SILENCE OP POLITICIANS AND STATES TO MAKE AN ARGUMENT
"And, most importantly, do you criticize to hurt Israel and her citizens, rather than aiming to find peaceful solutions that benefit everyone?"
No - where has this ever happened?
Can you give me myy marks please - I make it 10 out of ten for all of us.

I have given the history of Shah's comment - you choose to ignore it
Shah made her suggestion based on two previous suggestions made by two Jews in order to seek a peaceful solution to the prevailing situation - it was not an attack on the Jewish people, it was a reasonably thought out, if impractical suggestion.
By the old definition, that suggestion was antisemitic.
The Israelis have torn that definition up by attributing their behaviour to the Jewish people as a whole - claiming criticism of their actions is "antisemitic" does just that.
Your above list of questions carefully avoids that aspect of antisemitim
If the old definition is no longer valid an new on needs to be reached.
"Nadiya Al-Noor" is a Muslim who has converted to Zionism and has taken up the Israeli cause against the Palestinian People.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 04:41 AM

Sorry Teribus - I attributed both postings to you - your arguments have become indistinguishable
I doubt if you will respond to any of the points anyway
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 08:25 AM

In determining what is regarded as unacceptable and offensive, then the definition comes from the person or group suffering and noting the offence, it most certainly is not defined by those doing the offending.

Amen!

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 08:25 AM

Hate to point this out to you Kevin but what "you suggest" she meant is irrelevant.

The professor himself is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 08:32 AM

"n determining what is regarded as unacceptable and offensive, "
So if a young black lad says "you're only arresting me because I'm black", we have to take his word for it?
That's the basis of Israeli defence
Do I have that right

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 08:45 AM

This is a crass argument
What do you do when one group of Jews accuses another group of Jews of crimes in the name of Judaism - as is now happening regularly in Israel
Each accusation has to be taken on its merits, not on who it offends.
you have just been given a long statement on Labour antisemitism which contradicts everything that is being claimed - by a Jewish member of the Labour Party
How do you make up your mind without knowing all the facts?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 09:50 AM

The fact that Naz Shah said that her remarks were antisemitic is not actually conclusive as to whether they were or not.

If she had been talking about her beliefs as being antisemitic that would be a different matter. But in fact she specifically has said that she is not herself antisemitic.

However her views as to whether what she wrote was actually antisemitic have no more evidential force than those of others.

It is clear that she was not making a proposal as to what should actually happen, any more than the Jewish critic of Israel, Norman Finkelstein, whose writing she was drawing on, and whose illustrative map she used.

Antisemitism is a real and terrible thing, and it needs to identified and opposed - but extending the meaning of the term in the way that has been done does not help in identifying and opposing, and in fact has the reverse effect.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 09:52 AM

Well Teribus, no doubt if you went to a Naz Shah speech you'd be sitting at the back shouting "Yah, boo, you lying bloody leftie! Red scum! You wouldn't know the truth if it reared up and bit you on yo' sweet socialist ass!" But when she pronounces on her "antisemitism," why, she must be spot-on accurate! Sword of truth! So which is it to be? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 10:26 AM

"In determining what is regarded as unacceptable and offensive, then the definition comes from the person or group suffering and noting the offence, it most certainly is not defined by those doing the offending."

So no room for objectivity at all, then? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 02:46 PM

Steve,
If she apologised for antisemitism she was doing it to save her own arse. There is nothing, NOTHING antisemitic in the above,

She had already been reinstated when she made her statements acknowledging that her ignorance of Jewish history had led her to make anti-Semitic statements.
Corbyn also found them anti-Semitic, so what is your opinion worth Steve?


And you lied by stating that she called for "Jews to be transported out of the Middle East." She said no such thing. Israel does not equal Jews.

No. You pretend to believe that she meant Arabs should be transported to another continent, but obviously she did not, and her acknowledgement of the anti-Semitism of her statements, and the same acknowledgement from Corbyn and the leadership prove it.

JimI assume we have finished with your "Bollocks" claim regarding the two Israeli extremist ministers

No. They simple do not say that however many times you quote them not saying that.

Kevin,

If she had been talking about her beliefs as being antisemitic that would be a different matter. But in fact she specifically has said that she is not herself antisemitic.

She said what she believed. Now her beliefs have changed as she has been educated about Jewish history.
She is not an anti-Semite, just ignorant.
Her ignorance led her to make anti-Semitic statements.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 03:01 PM

You have had the quotes Keith - want them again?
Happy to oblige
You might try here
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 03:02 PM
Jim Caroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 06:39 PM

I didn't mention Arabs. You did. I didn't mention Jews. You did. Naz Shah didn't mention Jews. You did. We have to wonder whether this is something to do with your rather sick obsession with making the Jews collectively responsible for the actions of the Israeli regime, which makes you such an antisemite and such an enemy of the Jewish people. Naz Shah was CLEARLY referring to a solution to the political problems caused by the Israeli REGIME (idiotically in my opinion). I don't care about what she said about what she said. I don't care about what Jeremy Corbyn said about what she said. Naz Shah and Jeremy Corbyn are politicians. They are doing what politicians always do, in this case, indulging in damage limitation. They are breathing the polluted political air, just like they all do, the whole bloody shebang. Actually, they do it clumsily and with rotten timing, but at least they do it without spin. Look where spin has got us in the last couple of decades. I am giving you MY unvarnished opinions. You see, Keith, you have never, ever, done that, even though this is supposed to be a discussion forum. You unfailingly appeal to authority, all the time, every time. Naturally, you only appeal to the authorities that are in line with your own prejudices and bigotry. And you wonder why you get abuse and name-calling. Actually, no. You love it, and you do it to attract that abuse so that you can come here and act like the abused innocent. In other words, you are a troll.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 01:34 AM

Steve Shaw - 20 Oct 16 - 09:52 AM

Well Teribus, no doubt if you went to a Naz Shah speech you'd be sitting at the back shouting "Yah, boo, you lying bloody leftie! Red scum! You wouldn't know the truth if it reared up and bit you on yo' sweet socialist ass!" But when she pronounces on her "antisemitism," why, she must be spot-on accurate! Sword of truth! So which is it to be? 😂😂😂

So let me get this right. You tell me what I would say THEN take me to task over it???? What's the matter Shaw, is that really the best you can do? Pathetic and utterly ridiculous.

Unless you hadn't noticed I have been quoting and commenting upon what the person in question actually DID SAY, not what I thought she might say.

Oh by the way she did not mention Jews she mentioned Israelis (8 million people made up of 6 million Jews, 1.6 million Arabs and 400,000 others) Now as she also stated that those who originally lived there could get their land back that means the Arab citizens of Israel would not be required to move doesn't it? So her comments were directed solely at the Jewish citizens of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 04:30 AM

Naz Shah took a the genuine proposal of a Jewish academic and suggested it as an answer to the conflict - the map she used was Finklestein's ans was the original idea.
There was no animosity towards either the Jewish or the Israeli people - any animosity was aimed at the Israeli leadership - simple as that - as the Israeli regime have branded all condemnation of its policy"Antisemitic", that is what Shah was accused of and, I would guess, for the sake of making the issue go away, that is what she admitted to and apologised for.
The right-wing bum-wipe press, the Anti-Corbynites and the pro-Israeli propaganda team (including their handful of representatives on this forum) dishonestly presented the idea as Shah's antisemitic attack on the Jewish People - some even headlined it as a demand for the forcible TRANSPORTATION of all Israelis.
It was not her idea, it was not malicious and it was not antisemitic.
Any antisemitism in all this comes from those who would blame "The Jews" for the actions of the Israeli regime - the foremost of those being that regime itself.
It also comes from the member of this forum who suggested a pact of silence on the part of the Jewish Politicians in order to protect what they claimed to be a party with a large antisemitism problem (not forgetting his two supporters, of cours - credi where credit's due)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 04:38 AM

ANOTHER INTERESTING JEWISH VIEW of ANTISEMITISM
To be ignored by our incumbent Regime-rooters, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 06:01 AM

Took you a long time to come up with that twist, eh, Teribus? You've just done what you accused me of doing in the self-same post. If she meant Jews she would have said Jews. There are plenty of refugees and descendants of refugees who are not citizens of Israel. As ever with you lot, an extrapolation too far. I suggest that you're telling us what Naz Shah SHOULD have said, in order to make your smears easier to stick, then taking her to task for it. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 09:52 AM

Steve and Jim,
I don't care about what Jeremy Corbyn said about what she said. Naz Shah and Jeremy Corbyn are politicians.

You seem to regard them and the NEC as congenital liars, determined to brand Labour guilty of anti-Semitism where none exists.

I have more respect.
I see no reason for them to lie, nor any reason to disbelieve them except that they all contradict you Steve!

Why should we believe you over them?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 10:02 AM

Jim,
"The right-wing bum-wipe press, the Anti-Corbynites and the pro-Israeli propaganda team (including their handful of representatives on this forum" AND CORBYN AND SHAH HERSELF!!!)" dishonestly presented the idea as Shah's antisemitic attack on the Jewish People."

You and Steve would rather claim that she and Corbyn and the NEC are all lying about this, but I find it easier to believe that they know what they are saying and you two have got it all wrong again.
I can see why you might lie about it.
I can not see why they would all lie to smear their Party with anti-Semitism where there is none.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 10:15 AM

For crying out loud Keith, please respond to the facts put up or go away
If you hav any problem with those facts, please deal with them and stop misrepresenting the situation with meaningless quotes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 10:26 AM

Why the hell do you do this Keith?
You are presented with a mass of facts, you completely ignore them and repeat the same old-same old like a pre-recorded message, over and over and over..... again.
It is exactly what ***** up these discussions
The facts man - the facts
Here has not been a shred of evidence to show antisemitism in the Labour Party unlss you include criticism of Israel
That comes from Jews - perhaps they are part of your "plot"!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 11:26 AM

Well how happy I am that you see Naz and Jezza as wielders of the sword of truth! That you're so respectful of them! May I interest you in joining the Labour Party as a pensioner member? Only £1.96 a month! Come and join us, Keith, and I'll see if I can't get you a free pass to join Momentum!

Just give over, will you, with your sanctimonious "respect." If there's one thing you've proved over the years here it's that you have no respect whatsoever for the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 11:39 AM

KEITH HAS DENIED THIS
Jim Carroll
"Israeli foreign minister says disloyal Arabs should be beheaded
By Ishaan Tharoor March 10, 2015
An ultra-Orthodox Jew looks at an election billboard poster in Russian that translates to 'Death Sentence to Terrorists,' and underneath, 'Right On Lieberman' in Jerusalem, 01 March 2015. (EPA/JIM HOLLANDER)
Avigdor Lieberman, Israel's foreign minister and the head of a right-wing, Israeli nationalist party, is known for his fiery rhetoric. But he possibly crossed a line during an election rally in the city of Herzliya on Sunday.
"Whoever's with us should get everything," Lieberman said, in reference to the loyalty of Israeli Arabs, who make up some 20 percent of Israel's population. "Those who are against us, there's nothing to be done – we need to pick up an axe and cut off his head. Otherwise we won't survive here."
Lieberman, the head of the Yisrael Beitenu party, may argue he was speaking in biblical metaphors -- his comments carried allusions to the Book of Esther, reports Haaretz. But they are deeply provocative, and reflect Lieberman's known antipathy for the Israeli Arab population.
The foreign minister's comments in the past have led critics to accuse him of racism. These include his calls last year to boycott Arab businesses that had shut their doors in protest of Israel's bombing campaign in Gaza, as well as a proposal made last November suggesting Israeli Arabs be given "economic incentives" to leave their homes in Israel for the West Bank.
Unlike some other politicians on Israel's right, Lieberman is staunchly secularist. His brand of nationalist populism is anchored among Israeli Jews who emigrated from countries in the former Soviet Union, where he himself was born.
Lieberman's reference to beheading is particularly garish given the wider context of the region. The jihadists of the Islamic State have carried out the grisly act on hostages throughout the past year in the war zones of the Middle East. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu singled out the group's savagery in a speech last week in Washington, equating its worldview with that of Iran, his main geopolitical foe.
Netanyahu's Likud party even ran a campaign ad warning that, should his centrist and center-left opponents win in upcoming elections this month, the door will be open for the Islamic State to infiltrate the Jewish state. Lieberman's party could once more partner Likud in a coalition government after Israelis go to the polls.
After Lieberman made his controversial remarks, an irate Arab Israeli legislator demanded an investigation into the comments and labeled Lieberman as "Jewish ISIS," referring to another term for the Islamic State."

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 01:52 PM

Not a very nice person, this Lieberman chap, is he, Keith? Care to put "his side of the story" for us?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 02:45 PM

Jim,
Here has not been a shred of evidence to show antisemitism in the Labour Party

Yes there has. We have the testimony of many senior Labour members and leaders.
It is ludicrous to suggest that they are all lying, which is your only case Jim.

For crying out loud Keith, please respond to the facts put up or go away

Put up the facts one at a time and I will respond to them.
I believe I already have, but I am prepared to humour you.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 02:51 PM

Jim,
"Whoever's with us should get everything," Lieberman said, in reference to the loyalty of Israeli Arabs, who make up some 20 percent of Israel's population. "Those who are against us, there's nothing to be done – we need to pick up an axe and cut off his head.

As is obvious to any rational person, that is a figure of speech, or is there only one person, i.e. "him."

Does Israel behead anyone?
No.
Is it Israeli policy to behead opponents?
No.
Why do decent countries have anything to do with such a barbarous regime?
Because it is all bollocks!

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 03:08 PM

"Does Israel behead anyone?"
"Is it Israeli policy to behead opponents?"
"Why do decent countries have anything to do with such a barbarous regime?"
Why do decnt countrie
s sell weapons to terrorist States - For money and political influnce, Keith, for money and plitical influence
Did the minister say it?
Can yuo produce one single statement claiming it was a figure of speech - no you cannot - you are lying again
Yes there has. We have the testimony of many senior Labour members and leaders."
The produce their descriptions of that antisemitism
If you can stop yourself from lying for a single minute.
How do you think a jury would react if an accuser stood up and accused someone of a crime and said "!I'm not going to tell you what h has done
You are a stupidly dishonest antisemitic toad.
Jewish Pact of Silence - how racist can you gt?
Another statement for you to deny
Holocaust threat to Palestinians
An Israeli minister today warned of increasingly bitter conflict in the Gaza Strip, saying the Palestinians could bring on themselves what he called a "holocaust".

"The more Qassam [rocket] fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," Matan Vilnai, Israel's deputy defence minister, told army radio.

Shoah is the Hebrew word normally reserved to refer to the Jewish Holocaust. It is rarely used in Israel outside discussions of the Nazi extermination of Jews during the second world war, and many Israelis are loath to countenance its use to describe other events.

The minister's statement came after two days of tit-for-tat missile raids between Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip and the Israeli army. At least 32 Palestinians and one Israeli have been killed since the surge in violence on Wednesday.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/29/israelandthepalestinians1
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 03:22 PM

Using Steve Shaw's logic, on points raised by Jim Carroll:

If an Israeli Minister says something it must be true and it must be fact, it must also be Israeli Government Policy.

An Israeli Minister says that all disloyal Arabs should be beheaded. Must be true an Israeli Minister said it.

An Israeli Minister says that Israel was not responsible for the Sabra-Shatila Massacres. How about that one Jim? An Israeli Minister said that as well.

Only problem with the former is that under Israeli law capital punishment does not exist so how could Arabs "disloyal" or otherwise, or anybody else in Israel be sentenced to death in an Israeli Court. Now in Gaza under Hamas completely different story.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 03:35 PM

"An Israeli Minister says that all disloyal Arabs should be beheaded. Must be true an Israeli Minister said it."
If it is published and not disproved - yes
"it must also be Israeli Government Policy."
If they (two of them_ attain and keep high office, it must have the Government's blessing
Are you suggesting that it is proper for ministers who made such statements to hold office?
"An Israeli Minister said that as well."
Nope - the report set up by the Government said that one and the man they found responsible was later appointed Prime Minister - so the Government must have approved of that one - the world said they were guilt so we don't take the Israeli's word for it anyway..
"Only problem with the former is that under Israeli law capital punishment "Israeli law dos not cover massacres of unarmed civilians or refugees, doesn't stop them from happening regularly
If they made a difference, the Israelis would abolish them the same as they are calling for the abolition of the International court
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 05:11 PM

Ridiculous post, Teribus. Of course he wasn't saying that Arab heads would ever be cut off. But Keith's suggestion that it was a "figure of speech" is equally ridiculous. It's a lot more than that and Keith, as ever, in "putting Israel's side of the story," is trying to trivialise a lousy, rotten racist remark from a lousy, rotten, known racist. The remark is a symptom of the fact that the man is sick in the head and has no place in a supposedly responsible administration. He exposed himself via his own words. He's not been the only one in successive Israeli regimes either, has he?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 07:45 PM

Call for Genocide 2016
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 02:32 AM

Jim Carroll - 21 Oct 16 - 03:35 PM - Complete and utter bollocks Jim - as usual - Politicians say lots of things that they do not mean and know full well will never happen. They are said to placate the various groups they address and are as changeable as the wind. they also change what they say for "domestic" consumption and then state something else entirely for "international" consumption.

Besides Jim, Avigdor Lieberman said opponents of the Israeli state "deserve to have heads chopped off with an axe". NOT "Should have their heads cut off" - there is a massive difference. He made that statement on 3.09.2015 and I do not think that since making that comment the Knesset has even debated let alone voted on reintroducing capital punishment in Israel - so answer my question - How on earth could anybody have their heads cut off by Israeli Government Policy when no such Policy exists?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 02:40 AM

Steve Shaw - 21 Oct 16 - 05:11 PM

Of course he wasn't saying that Arab heads would ever be cut off.

You know and realise that Steve, I know and realise that - BUT Jim Carroll DOESN'T he believes it to be Israeli Government Policy just because some twat of a Politician said it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 03:50 AM

"Politicians say lots of things that they do not mean "
Then we have to take them by their actions
These are public statements made by senior politicians
You make an enormous issue of blogs by non politicians who later became politicised, yet you write off those made by leading Israeli statesmen - once again, without proof, of course.
The pair of you appear to have appointed yourselves unofficial spokesmen for these monsters - unless you have a regular pay-packet coming in, of course.
Do you actually have any evidence that these people don't mean what they say? -
I've asked Keith to provide evidence for his Jewish plot theory - none has been forthcoming - I've got sore fingers asking you to back up your claims with actual evidence - once again - nowt.
Likewise with asking you to provide facts and figures for you Labour Party accusation - th silence is deafening.
You seem to fill your tank with a string of excuses for a regime whose behaviour is open and obvious.
You a a self-appointed bunch of atrocity deniers - and not very good at it.
"How on earth could anybody have their heads cut off by Israeli Government Policy when no such Policy exists?"
How on earth can you make excuses for a Govenment that includes these people.
No - I don't believe for one minute the Israelis woud do such a thing - they would never get away with it - even their bosom buddies in the U.S. wouldn't be able to back them on that one.
THEY ARE INCITEMENTS TO RACE HATRED AGAINST A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN ORDER TO DRIVE THEM OUT OF LAND THEY HAVE OCCUPIED FOR MILLENIA - IT IS PART OF THE ETHNIC CLEANSING CAMPAIGN THAT HAS BEEN TAKING PLACE FOR A LONG TIME
And isn't it just working - you choose to ignore the calls for genocide by the tel Aviv mob - not worth a comment.
Here's a film of Israelis celebrating the fact that Palesininan schools http://www.redressonline.com/2014/07/watch-israelis-celebrate-the-slaughter-of-palestinian-children-call-for-murder-of-israeli-arab-legislators/ becaus "there are no children left in Gaza"
Incitement to race hatred is a crime in Britain - it is rife among Israelis and you scumbags excuse it.
Above all, all these incidents are living (or dying) proof of the accusation is becoming ot has bencome a fascist state.
A few more facts to be ignored or denied.
"DECENT DEMOCRATIC" cover-up ]
Evidence of War Crimes HAARETZ
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 04:24 AM

Should have blue clickied this - unmissable
Celebrating deaths of Palestinian children
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 04:45 AM

" Of course he wasn't saying that Arab heads would ever be cut off."

Got that Jim!

Call for Genocide 2016
Jim

That is bollocks too.


Celebrating deaths of Palestinian children
Jim Carroll

Need I say, more bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 06:21 AM

"That is bollocks too.
"More denials of news reports and even films"
You may be an apology for a human being - but by gd, you are #a worse propagandist - you deny photographs, films of the events and photographs - they is both brandead and lazy
Where is your evidence that these have been manufactured?
1000 SUPPORT SOLDIER WHO EXECUTED PALESTINIAN
"Among the sea of flags and signs, one read "My honor is loyalty" – the motto of the Nazi SS. Last night was the latest example of the genocidal current running through Israeli society, one that has support from the grassroots to the parliament."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 06:27 AM

Well, I think I can say without fear or favour that neither you, Jim nor I believes that axes are to be taken to Arab heads in Israel any time soon. I can also say, without fear or favour, that you, Jim and I are in agreement that the remark was made by "some twat of a politician." Just trying to spread a little harmony here, that's all....

Now when some "twat of a politician" says something stupid and untimely like that, we quite rightly pick them up on it and criticise them for it. All three of us, in our own differently sweet ways, have now had a pop at the detestable Mr Lieberman. So, Teribus, what I'd like you now to do is to 'ave a little word in Keith's shell-like and tell him that Naz Shah was being stupid and untimely when she made those ridiculous posts about moving Israel to the US. She was definitely being a twat of a politician, wasn't she? So when a proven twat of a politician then says something that fits nicely with your agenda, for example that they said something antisemitic when they didn't really, probably to save their skin, then we should really suspect that they may just be continuing to be a bit of a twat of a politician and not, as Keith would have it, the bearer of the sword of truth...


Just sayin'....

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 07:54 AM

Every time one of these scumbag ministers makes one of of his scumbag statements he is reproducing a microcosmic Nuremberg Rally
Can't remember the Jewish writer who said that, but isn't it the case?
More "Bollocks"

AND ANOTHER - this time from Haaretz
ARABS TO THE GAS CHAMBERS
CELEBRATING DEATH OF CHILD BURNED ALIVE IN ARSON ATTACK

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 02:51 PM

Jim, what is the message of all your links?
Do they really show Jews doing what you claim? I doubt it.
If they do, what does it tell us about Jews?
Or is it supposed to tell us something about the Israeli government?
No. It only shows groups of Jews, not government officials.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 05:07 PM

You're really wallowing today, aren't you, Keith? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 04:09 AM

"Jim, what is the message of all your links?"
They show what is happening in Israel today Keith - why do you think I put them up?
I leave accusing "Jews" of doing such things to antisemites like yourself - this is the outcome of the crimes of an administration turning the dream of the Jewish People into a fascist nightmare - it is the work of fanatics backed by the State.
We have your decision "No It only shows groups of Jews, not government officials." - Jews, not the State.
Why didn't you say this in the first place and we could have skipped all this argument and cut to the chase.?
The statements by ministers that you have denied (not disproved), are incitement to hatred, plain and simple, and it is these which bring about behaviour like this - not the Jewish People - there are many, many more examples of such incitements and their outcome.
When Sabra/Shatila was investigated, the man who was found responsible for the massacre - by the Israeli enquiry - later became Prime Minister.
What more proof do you need of the involvement of the Israeli establishment in the massacre?
The woman who posted a message inciting total war against the Palestinian People was appointed Justice Minister (***** 'Justice' Minister, for crying out loud) by the present administration.
What more proof do you need of the concept of "Justice" by the present regime?
It was a Government Foreign Minister who proposed the beheading of disloyal Arabs.
What more proof do you need of the present regime's attitude to people who have as much right to safety, security and a home as anybody else in that area?
This incitement to hatred and killing is encouraged from the very top -
In "decent, civilised countries" presided over by decent, civilised human beings, actions such as these against an impoverished and vulnerable people would be illegal and would be stamped on by any "decent, civilised" administration - instead, it is encouraged and even participated in from the very top.
What "decent, civilised" administration would tolerate the burning alive of a child and then the celebration of that act, without punishing the perpetrators?
To blame the people for what is happening and letting the government off the hook is equivalent to blaming the German People for the Holocaust and absolving the Nazis.
You say it is the Jews not the State to blame - that is not only Antsemitism writ large, it is Fascism in its most (im)pure sense - the people being responsible for the actions of the State
You really needed to say this before now so we could have dealt with it on the basis of where you are coming from.
Thank you for confirming it now - a bit late, but better late......, as they say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 04:56 AM

They show what is happening in Israel today Keith - why do you think I put them up?

I am far from convinced they show anything untoward.
The photograph at the wedding party is barely visible and seems to show a bearded person to my eyes. There is nothing else in the video.
It is only one small group at the street celebration being anti-Arab, and that assumes the translation is true. Non of the interviewees are.

Are you claiming that Israeli Jews are mostly monsters, are just a tiny minority as in all populations.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 06:06 AM

"I am far from convinced they show anything untoward."
you are now supporting a film celebrating the death of a child -
"Are you claiming that Israeli Jews are mostly monsters,"
No Keith - you are.
You have blamed the people for the actions of the State in order to absolve the regime.
That is Fascism, pure and simple, ad the fact that it is aimed at Jews, it is antisemitic
Take credit for what you have said and don't try to smear me with what you are guilty of
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 09:11 AM

From The Times of Israel

The new international definition of anti-Semitism that mentions Israel hatred was adopted in part to replace a similar one scrapped by the European Union, an initiator of the new text said.

Robert Williams, a delegate of the United States at the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, or IHRA, told JTA on Tuesday that his intergovernmental agency of 31 Western nations adopted its new definition of anti-Semitism last month partly as a response to the 2013 removal from the website of the EU's anti-racism agency of a definition that also mentioned demonizing Israel as an example of anti-Semitism.

The EU definition was dropped following lobbying by pro-Palestinian activists and pulled it offline from the website of its anti-racism agency.

IHRA Working Definition of anti-Semitism
Bucharest, 26 May 2016

In the spirit of the Stockholm Declaration that states: "With humanity still scarred by ...antisemitism
and xenophobia the international community shares a solemn responsibility to fight those evils" the
committee on Antisemitism and Holocaust Denial called the IHRA Plenary in Budapest 2015 to adopt the following working definition of antisemitism.


To guide IHRA in its work, the following examples may serve as illustrations:

Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish
collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be
regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it
is often used to blame Jews for "why things go wrong." It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms
and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the
religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:


Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology
or an extremist view of religion.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other
societal institutions.

Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a
single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.

Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the
Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices
during World War II (the Holocaust).

Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.

Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews
worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence
of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other
democratic nation.

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing
Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 10:09 AM

It is nonsensical to include criticism of Israel as part of any definition of Antisemitism as some of the severest critics of Israeli policies are Jews - many of them from Israel.
This immediately makes possibly millions of Jews "antisemitic"
It is a totally unworkable definition - it places the actions of the Israeli State above criticism - any State occupying that position is, by definition Fascist
It is a contradictory definition if it also includes "Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
The Israeli regime regards all criticism of its policies in relation to the Palestinians and the Bedouins as "Antisemitic" - you are the worst offender in this Bobad
By your definition, this accusation links the Jewish People as a whole to Israeli policy and is therefore "Antisemitic" by your own definition.
Nobody here is guilty of any of the things listed above, apart from you three, who support the idea that British Jewish Parliamentarians have conspired as a group to cover up the nature of the antisemitism it is accusing Labour members of - "Jewish Plots" take us right back to the balmy days of Nazi Germany!
The sorry bunch of you appear to have painted yourselves into a corner and now Keith has made that corner even tighter by blaming the behaviour of Israeli extremists as "groups of Jews, not government officials"
Your definition brands you all as a bunch of Antisemites.
I suppose it's a waste of time asking you if you agree with it BUT YOUR SILENCE WILL BE CONFIRMATION ENOUGH THAT YOU DO - THAKS FOR THAT
Mac appears to have got the answer to his question - this is antisemitism writ very large.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 10:15 AM

The EU "definition" was not dropped or scrapped because it was never adopted in the first place, and its removal from the FRA website certainly had nothing to do with any pro-Palestinian pressure. I mean, how many more times are we going to have to put up with this drivel?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 10:54 AM

GOD'S ARMY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 11:01 AM

"IHRA Chair, Ambassador Mihnea Constantinescu, stated:

"All IHRA Member Countries share concern that incidents of antisemitism are steadily rising and agree that IHRA's Member Countries and indeed IHRA's experts need political tools with which to fight this scourge. IHRA's 31 member countries - 24 of which are EU member countries- are committed to the Stockholm Declaration and thereby to fighting the evil of antisemitism through coordinated international political action."

The IHRA Chair continued: "By adopting this working definition, the IHRA is setting an example of responsible conduct for other international fora and hopes to inspire them also to take action on a legally binding working definition.""

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 12:45 PM

Jim,
you are now supporting a film celebrating the death of a child -
No. I am questioning if it did portray that. The photograph supposedly of the child was not recognisable as such, and there is nothing else in the video that suggests anything unpleasant.

Are you saying that Jews in Israel commonly celebrate child murder?

You have blamed the people for the actions of the State in order to absolve the regime.

Of course I have done no such thing. Your lies about me are becoming desperate Jim.

now Keith has made that corner even tighter by blaming the behaviour of Israeli extremists as "groups of Jews, not government officials"

No. That is what you did by posting what purported to be evil behaviour by groups of Jews as a criticism of Israel.
If that was not your intent, why did you post all those links?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 12:54 PM

Steve,

"19.The College of Policing's guidance for UK police forces quotes the EUMC definition in full.36 The Government also endorsed it in a statement by Rt Hon Sir Eric Pickles MP, the UK's Special Envoy for post-Holocaust issues, in March 2016.37 "

"25.We recommend that the IHRA definition, with our additional caveats, should be formally adopted by the UK Government, law enforcement agencies and all political parties, to assist them in determining whether or not an incident or discourse can be regarded as antisemitic."
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmhaff/136/13605.htm

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 01:08 PM

Did he invent Pickle Ball?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 01:22 PM

Questioning something that is headlined and fully described without a semblnce of proof is that you are alone are doing that - you are efending it.
It is hard to imagine that someone who calls himself a "Christian" would defend celebrating the death of a child that has been burned alive in an arson attack
You never cease to amaze Keith
"Are you saying that Jews in Israel commonly celebrate child murder?"
You've asked this once before Keith in an attmpt to smear what I am saying
I am saying, as I said in the first place, that incitement to race hatred, as displayed by your Israeli Ministers, inevitably leads to extreme actions such as this.   
"You have blamed the people for the actions of the State in order to absolve the regime. "
No I didn't - more serious than that - you actually blamed "The Jews"
"No It only shows groups of Jews, not government officials" to be exact"
You never learn about lying in public, do you?
Want it again? - Earwig-O "NO IT ONLY SHOWS GROUPS OF JEWS, NOT GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS" TO BE EXACT"
I'll put it up as many time as you deny it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 01:33 PM

Keith, your link actually contradicts what you're saying. Do read it through. College of policing? Do me a favour, will you.

Greg, don't depress yourself by looking into Eric Pickles. He's a big, fat, nasty piece of pretentious Tory slimeball.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 04:16 PM

Jim,
It is hard to imagine that someone who calls himself a "Christian" would defend celebrating the death of a child that has been burned alive in an arson attack.

Your attempts to smear me get wilder and more desperate Jim.
Of course I do not.

When I asked why you posted those links purporting to show Jews engaging in such despicable behaviour, you replied, "They show what is happening in Israel today Keith."

So you think such behaviour typical among Israeli Jews. I say it is not.

as displayed by your Israeli Ministers, inevitably leads to extreme actions such as this.

So if Irish ministers made racist comments, you and your neighbours would indulge in such despicable behaviour?
Of course not, and Jews are no different to you and your neighbours Jim.

"No It only shows groups of Jews, not government officials" to be exact"
You never learn about lying in public, do you?

Those videos you linked to did only show ordinary Jews, not government officials.

Steve,
College of policing? Do me a favour, will you.

Are you questioning its existence?
Read about it here.
http://www.college.police.uk/Pages/Home.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 04:32 PM

He's a big, fat, nasty piece of pretentious Tory slimeball.

Well, except for the fat (or is he?) that could br Colonel Terribulus.

And except for the Tory (or is he?) that could be Bubo.

Fascinating!

As for The Professor, descriptors fail me.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 02:49 AM

Discussion is not about applying descriptors to other members Greg.
That is personal attack which is supposed not to be allowed here.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 04:12 AM

"Your attempts to smear me get wilder and more desperate Jim."
You have smeared yourself over and over again down the years Kith - wouldn't dream of taking the credit
Over and over again you have denied without proof, statements reported from inside and outside Israel, from Jews and non-Jews, of Israeli Ministers whipping up hatred among the Israeli people - statements that, in a democratic "decent" country would be totally illegal - you has dismissed these reports as "bollocks".
You appeased statements of racist hate by a regime you appear to worship - you continue to do so.
You were given links to two films of mobs of Israeli extremists; one showing a roomful of people gleefully celebrating the burning alive of child victim of an arson attack - you question - without a shred of proof - the validity of that film.
The other film shows a mob of thousands of Israelis in Tel Aviv calling for the Genocide of Arabs in revenge for the killing of a policeman who publicly executed an unarmed suspect - the mob included thugs carrying the slogan, "My honor is loyalty" – the motto of the Nazi SS.
You described this mini Nuremberg Rally as a legitimate way of expressing hatred of Palestinisns
You describe this as a legitimate form of protest against the Palstinians
That is appeasing race hatred and fascism - it is inhuman.
And who do you blame for this - "THE ORDINARY JEWS" - not the fascist hate statements - not the Israeli ministers who made them, but "THE ORDINARY JEWS"   
"Those videos you linked to did only show ordinary Jews, not government officials."
We have had plenty of examples of Governments making extremist statements which have whipped whole populations into hate-filled frenzies
"Of course not, and Jews are no different to you and your neighbours Jim."
How stupid, or how desperate can you get?
Of course demagogues like the Israeli regime are capable of whipping people up into hate filled mobs - what the **** do you think the Holocaust was about - a handful of Nazis secretly following their hobby.
Sadly, they had support from the masses - from Kristalllnacht onwards
This - from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.
"Propaganda tries to force a doctrine on the whole people... Propaganda works on the general public from the standpoint of an idea and makes them ripe for the victory of this idea." Adolf Hitler wrote these words in his book Mein Kampf (1926), in which he first advocated the use of propaganda to spread the ideals of National Socialism—among them racism, antisemitism, and anti-Bolshevism."
Your repetitious blaming ordinary Jewish people for these displays of hatred, while totally absolving the openly declared hate mongering of leading figures in the Israeli estavblishment confirms that you have no interest in or regard for the Jewish People - your total support is for an extremist right wing regime who describes Jews who oppose its policies as - evidence enough of the antisemitic nature of that regime, and of your own antisemitism.
In these two threads you have managed to show yourself as you really are and drag your two mates down with you - not a bad two threads work Keith - well done.
"Those videos you linked to did only show ordinary Jews, not government officials."
- must write that one down - definitely one for your C.V. - to be made use of in the future.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 04:15 AM

"That is personal attack which is supposed not to be allowed here."
That has never stopped you Keith
Stop whingeing about something you do regularly
Respectfully yours
Your ignoramus, no-nothing- leftie - gullible Muppet]

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 05:19 AM

"So if Irish ministers made racist comments, you and your neighbours would indulge in such despicable behaviour?"
HOW STUPID CAN YOU GET
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 05:40 AM

Jim,
You were given links to two films of mobs of Israeli extremists; one showing a roomful of people gleefully celebrating the burning alive of child victim of an arson attack - you question - without a shred of proof - the validity of that film.

The video was of a wedding party.
We a told that a photo of a dead child was being held up and abused.
If it was then the persons doing it were behaving despicably, but they were not government officials.
Also, it was impossible to discern what the picture was of.
To my eyes the subject appeared to be bearded, but it was litlle more than a blur. That is why I question the validity.
Here it is, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3373035/Shocking-footage-Jewish-wedding-shows-guests-celebrating-death-Palestinian-baby-burned-alive-arson-attack.html

Anyway it was just ordinary Jews behaving despicably, if they were, so what was your point?
Are you claiming it as typical behaviour of Jews in Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 05:48 AM

Jim again,
"That is personal attack which is supposed not to be allowed here."
That has never stopped you Keith

Yes it has. I do not resort to personal abuse.
Some years ago, I did call someone a muppet, but that is not even abusive.
They are loveable puppets, and I sometimes call my grand kids muppets when we are being silly.
I have never called anyone an ignoramus, and I doubt "no nothing leftie."

"So if Irish ministers made racist comments, you and your neighbours would indulge in such despicable behaviour?"
HOW STUPID CAN YOU GET

The whole quote,
"So if Irish ministers made racist comments, you and your neighbours would indulge in such despicable behaviour?
Of course not, and Jews are no different to you and your neighbours Jim."

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:14 AM

"Of course not, and Jews are no different to you and your neighbours Jim."
DON'T BE STUPID
DON'T BE STUPID
DON'T BE STUPID
And you still absolve hate ministers by blaming Jews
"Anyway it was just ordinary Jews behaving despicably, if they were, so what was your point?"
My point Keith, is this despicable behaviour has been sanctioned by at least 4 Isaeli ministers - including a Rabbi - and you claim their rhetoric has no effect sand blame "THE JEWS
How antisemitic can you get?
Jim Carroll

1. "There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies, not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy." Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001

2. "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

3. " [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

4. "The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

5. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

6. "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.

7. "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969

8. "The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.

9. David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

10. Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."

11. "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

12. "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio. (Certainly the FBI's cover-up of the Israeli spy ring/phone tap scandal suggests that Mr. Sharon may not have been joking.)

13. "We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

14. "We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return" David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

15. " ... we should prepare to go over to the offensive with the aim of smashing Lebanon, Trans-jordan and Syria... The weak point in the Arab coalition is Lebanon [for] the Moslem regime is artificial and easy to undermine. A Christian state should be established... When we smash the [Arab] Legions strength and bomb Amman, we will eliminate Transjordan, too, and then Syria will fall. If Egypt still dares to fight on, we shall bomb Port Said, Alexandria, and Cairo." " David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

16. "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"

17. "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

18. "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

19. Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. "We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters" Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.

20. "There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than over those of a tenant. [I] tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument:...the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish...with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary." Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department. From Israel: an Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5.

21. "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

22. "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

23. "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

24. "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

25. "We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own." (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

26. "We will have a world government whether you like it or not. The only question is whether that government will be achieved by conquest or consent." (Jewish Banker Paul Warburg, February 17, 1950, as he testified before the U.S. Senate).

27. "We will establish ourselves in Palestine whether you like it or not...You can hasten our arrival or you can equally retard it. It is however better for you to help us so as to avoid our constructive powers being turned into a destructive power which will overthrow the world." (Chaim Weizmann, Published in "Judische Rundschau," No. 4, 1920)

28. "Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves." - Israeli prime Minister Menachem Begin in a speech to the Knesset [Israeli Parliament] quoted by Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts," New Statesman, June 25, 1982

29. "Tell me, do the evil men of this world have a bad time? They hunt and catch whatever they feel like eating. They don't suffer from indigestion and are not punished by Heaven. I want Israel to join that club. Maybe the world will then at last begin to fear us instead of feeling sorry. Maybe they will start to tremble, to fear our madness instead of admiring our nobility. Let them tremble; let them call us a mad state. Let them understand that we are a savage country, dangerous to our surroundings, not normal, that we might go wild, that we might start World War Three just like that, or that we might one day go crazy and burn all the oil fields in the Middle East. Even if you'll prove to me that the present war is a dirty immoral war, I don't care. We shall start another war, kill and destroy more and more. And do you know why it is all worth it? Because it seems that this war has made us more unpopular among the civilized world.We'll hear no more of that nonsense about the unique Jewish morality. No more talk about a unique people being a light upon the nations. No more uniqueness and no more sweetness and light. Good riddance." --Former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon

30. "The Modern Age is the Jewish Age, and the twentieth century, in particular, is the Jewish Century." -Yuri Slezkine, Professor of History at University of California, Berkeley, "The Jewish Century"; Princeton University Press

31. "What shocks and worries me is the narrow-mindedness and the shortsightedness of our military leaders. They seem to presume that the State of Israel may or even must-behave in the realm of international relations according to the laws of the jungle- -the long chain of false incidents and hostilities we have invented, and so many clashes we have provoked;" - From Diary of Moshe Sharett, former Primer Minister of Israel in Livia Rokach, Israel's Sacred Terrorism published 980

32. Hebrew essayist Achad Ha-Am, after paying a visit to Palestine in 1891: "Abroad we are accustomed to believe that Israel is almost empty; nothing is grown here and that whoever wishes to buy land could come here and buy what his heart desires. In reality, the situation is not like this. Throughout the country it is difficult to find cultivable land which is not already cultivated."

33. The Balfour Declaration to Baron Rothchild, on the 2nd of November, 1917: "His Majesty's Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

34. Lord Sydenham, Hansard, House of Lords, 21 June 1922: "If we are going to admit claims on conquest thousands of years ago, the whole world will have to be turned upside down."

35. Vladimir Jabotinsky, The Iron Wall, 1923: "Zionist colonization must either be terminated or carried out against the wishes of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, be continued and make progress only under the protection of a power independent of the native population - an iron wall, which will be in a position to resist the pressure to the native population. This is our policy towards the Arabs..."

36. Vladimir Jabotinsky, founder of Revisionist Zionism (precursor of Likud), The Iron Wall, 1923: "A voluntary reconciliation with the Arabs is out of the question either now or in the future. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find some rich man or benefactor who will provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempt to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE!... Zionism is a colonization adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important... to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot - or else I am through with playing at colonizing."

37. David Ben Gurion, future Prime Minister of Israel, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985: "We must expel Arabs and take their places."

38. Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department in 1940. From "A Solution to the Refugee Problem": "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left."

39. Israeli official Arthur Lourie in a letter to Walter Eytan, director general of the Israeli Foreign Ministry (ISA FM 2564/22). From Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem 1947-49", p. 297: "...if people become accustomed to the large figure and we are actually obliged to accept the return of the refugees, we may find it difficult, when faced with hordes of claimants, to convince the world that not all of these formerly lived in Israeli territory. It would, in any event, seem desirable to minimize the numbers...than otherwise."

40. David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben- Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978: "We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai."

41. David Ben-Gurion, one of the father founders of Israel, described Zionist aims in 1948: "A Christian state should be established [in Lebanon], with its southern border on the Litani river. We will make an alliance with it. When we smash the Arab Legion's strength and bomb Amman, we will eliminate Transjordan too, and then Syria will fall. If Egypt still dares to fight on, we shall bomb Port Said, Alexandria and Cairo... And in this fashion, we will end the war and settle our forefathers' account with Egypt, Assyria, and Aram"

42. [Begin, and Yitzhak Shamir who were members of the party became Prime Ministers.] Albert Einstein, Hanna Arendt and other prominent Jewish Americans, writing in The New York Times, protest the visit to America of Menachem Begin, December 1948: "Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our time is the emergence in the newly created State of Israel of the Freedom Party (Herut), a political party closely akin in its organization, method, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties."

43. Martin Buber, Jewish Philosopher, addressed Prime Minister Ben Gurion on the moral character of the state of Israel with reference to the Arab refugees in March 1949. "We will have to face the reality that Israel is neither innocent, nor redemptive. And that in its creation, and expansion; we as Jews, have caused what we historically have suffered; a refugee population in Diaspora."

44. Moshe Dayan (Israel Defense and Foreign Minister), on February 12 1952. Radio "Israel.": "It lies upon the people's shoulders to prepare for the war, but it lies upon the Israeli army to carry out the fight with the ultimate object of erecting the Israeli Empire."

45. Martin Buber, to a New York audience, Jewish Newsletter, June 2, 1958: "When we [followers of the prophetic Judaism] returned to Palestine...the majority of Jewish people preferred to learn from Hitler rather than from us."

46. Aba Eban (the Israeli Foreign Minister) stated arrogantly. New York Times June 19, 1967: "If the General Assembly were to vote by 121 votes to 1 in favor of "Israel" returning to the armistice lines-- (pre June 1967 borders) "Israel" would refuse to comply with the decision."

47. Dr. Israel Shahak, Chairperson of the Israeli League for Human and Civil Rights, and a survivor of the Bergen Belsen concentration camp, Commenting on the Israeli military's Emergency Regulations following the 1967 War. Palestine, vol. 12, December 1983: "Hitler's legal power was based upon the 'Enabling Act', which was passed quite legally by the Reichstag and which allowed the Fuehrer and his representatives, in plain language, to be what they wanted, or in legal language, to issue regulations having the force of law. Exactly the same type of act was passed by the Knesset [Israeli's Parliament] immediately after the 1067 conquest granting the Israeli governor and his representatives the power of Hitler, which they use in Hitlerian manner."

48. Joseph Weitz, Director of the Jewish National Fund, the Zionist agency charged with acquiring Palestinian land, Circa 194. Machover Israca, January 5, 1973 /p.2: "The only solution is Eretz Israel [Greater Israel], or at least Western Eretz Israel [all the land west of Jordan River], without Arabs. There is no room for compromise on this point ... We must not leave a single village, not a single tribe."

49. Israeli Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, Inferring that killing isn't murder if the victim is Gentile. Jerusalem Post, June 19,1989: "Jewish blood and a goy's [gentile's] blood are not the same."

50. Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, tells students at Bar Ilan University, From the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989: "Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."

51. Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service: "The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the Jordan River for future generations, for the mass aliya [immigration], and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."

52. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000: "If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."

53. Ben Gurion: In 1899, Davis Triestsch wrote to Herzl: " I would suggest to you to come round in time to the "Greater Palestine" program before it is too late... the Basle program must contain the words "Great Palestine" or "Palestine and its neighboring lands" otherwise it's nonsense. You do not get ten million Jews into a land of 25,000 Km2". " The present map of Palestine was drawn by the British mandate. The Jewish people have another map which our youth and adults should strive to fulfill -- From the Nile to the Euphrates."

54. Vladimir Jabotinsky (the founder and advocate of the Zionist terrorist organizations), Quoted by Maxime Rodinson in Peuple Juif ou Problem Juif. (Jewish People or Jewish Problem): "Has any People ever been seen to give up their territory of their own free will? In the same way, the Arabs of Palestine will not renounce their sovereignty without violence."


Read more: EXAMPLES OF HATE SPEECH BY ISRAEL AGAINST PALESTINE | WHAT REALLY HAPPENED http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/palestinians.php#ixzz4Nzpj8irH

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:58 AM

LOL

Read more: EXAMPLES OF HATE SPEECH BY ISRAEL AGAINST PALESTINE | WHAT REALLY HAPPENED http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/palestinians.php#ixzz4Nzpj8irH


What Really Happened (tagline "Putting America First, Second, And Third!") is a website that purports to tell you (what else?) "what really happened." They promote all sorts of conspiracy theories, especially 9/11 conspiracy theories, Jewish banker conspiracies, the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theory, global warming conspiracy theories, and various types of pseudohistory and survivalism. Interestingly, they have sections debunking creationism and birtherism (though they put their own spin on it by positing an out-of-wedlock birth rather than the "born in Kenya" theory). They also have an associated podcast and wiki. So, in essence, it's a poor man's Infowars.

RationalWiki

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 08:14 AM

Then you take each accuation put up and show it isn't true Bobad - when you put up your marathon Islamophobic site you took it from a fascist site and made the same demand.
I started to gather quotes from Israeli leaders and found many were included on this sit - so why take the time?
Not a site I would normally chooose, but there is nothing wrong with the information - unless of course, you can prove otherwise
Some more sites to check
Jim Carroll

AUSTRALIAN LIBERAL POLITICIAN

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 08:41 AM

First ten checked
"There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies, not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy." Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001
http://www.azquotes.com/quote/771022

2. "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Keeping-a-crocodile-360131

3. " [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OR2Hu5WSwI

4. "The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
http://www.azquotes.com/quote/595632

5. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

6. "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4034765.stm

7. "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/12/opinion/l-what-golda-meir-said-about-palestinians-766493.html

8. "The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.
http://thinkexist.com/quotation/the-thesis-that-the-danger-of-genocide-was/989553.html

9. David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
Too wll known to bother

10. Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."
http://londonprogressivejournal.com/article/view/2342
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 09:34 AM

Next time we hear from this lot, Jim, about Hamas's unhelpful (to say the least) rhetoric about wiping Israel off the map, etc., we could just remind them of this torrent of intemperate bollocks from the people who truly HAVE put Jewish people in harm's way - the true antisemites.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 09:52 AM

FREEDOM of SPEECH in ISRAEL
"Next time we hear from this lot,"
I'm sure they'll be back, but don't expect a response to any of this!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 03:25 PM

And you still absolve hate ministers by blaming Jews

I do not not, and never have. Another desperate attempt to smear.
It was you who started posting links intendd to vilify ordinary Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 03:29 PM

Jim, I restrict myself to linking to media organs that normal people have heard of.
Why don't you?
Is it because there is no anti-Israel propaganda there, so you have to trawl the hate sites?
If you do that, do not expect to be taken seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 10:42 AM

Jim, I think you should tell us why you post videos intended to demonize ordinary Jews, and why you so frequently use non-mainstream sites to find anti-Israel propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: What does an 'anti-semitite do?
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 04:27 PM

An anti-Semites post here on Mudcat
An anti Semite holds itself superior.
An Anti Semite has never learned the lessons of WW II.
An anti-Semite takes pride in their unspeakable but actionable hate.


"I distinguish most carefully between good Jews and bad Jews.
In all countries Jews are in the minority. But a powerful minority in their influence, a minority endowed with aggressors and an initiative.
This is attributable to the fact that Jews due to their native abilities have risen to such high places in print, radio, TV, film and in finance. Perhaps this execution is only the incidental last straw which has broken the backs of this generation's patience"

That was 95 year old anti Semitism.

Many of "your" posts are mere "fresh" versions.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 06:45 PM

Thank you, Donuel, for your acknowledgement of what's going on in this thread. I wish more Mudcatters would lend their voice to recognizing and condemning the obvious and odious nature of the "fresh" versions of anti-Semitism that is on display herein.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 06:55 PM

Bubo, you don't have a frickin CLUE what's going on in this thread other than you spewing your usual vomit.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 07:07 PM

Donuel recoils from saying who he's talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 07:29 PM

edit
Anti Semites post here on Mudcat
An anti Semite holds itself superior.
An Anti Semite has never learned the lessons of WW II.
An anti-Semite takes pride in their unspeakable but actionable hate.


"I distinguish most carefully between good Jews and bad Jews.
In all countries Jews are in the minority. But a powerful minority in their influence, a minority endowed with aggressors and an initiative.
This is attributable to the fact that Jews due to their native abilities have risen to such high places in print, radio, TV, film and in finance. Perhaps this execution is only the incidental last straw which has broken the backs of this generation's patience"

Radio Broadcast of Father Coughflin

That was 95 year old anti Semitism.

Many of "your" posts are mere "fresh" versions.




I know precisely who leans on this hate, who harbors this hate, and who is the embodiment of this feeble attention loving hate. I even know who needs to be reported and to whom. Despite this, Human communication must remain open.

For those who persist in defaming themselves, name themselves even with links. Common sense Mudcat decorum advises a listing of names, albeit surprising, is unnecessary.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 07:52 PM

To quote from this year's Nobel laureate in Literature:

"You don't need a weatherman
To know which way the wind blows"

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 10:37 PM

The left's obsession with Israel has rehabilitated anti-Semitism.

"Although right-wing anti-Semitism has not gone away, today it co-exists all too comfortably with left-wing anti-Semitism. Writing in Dreams Deferred, David Hirsh argues: 'The most threatening anti-Semitism comes from those who believe they are opponents of all racism. Today's anti-Semitism thinks Israel is a key evil on the planet and Israelis need to be excluded from the global community. It thinks Israel murders Palestinian children out of evil and that Israel is a false nation, founded to steal and occupy other people's land. Today's anti-Semitism thinks Israel is powerful and controls opinion and governments around the world."

Singling out Israel, singling out Jews

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 07:59 AM

From that link.

But it also needs placing within a political climate where the condemnation of Israel, which goes way beyond the condemnation levelled at any other country, has become routine and legitimate, at least in part due to the popularity of the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement.

A lie. In the past, when the context has arisen, and just speaking for myself, I've condemned regimes in apartheid South Africa, Rhodesia then Zimbabwe, Uganda, Egypt, Chile, Spain, Portugal, Argentina, Saudi Arabia, Iran, USSR then Russia, Syria, the Balkans and God knows how many others. And don't get me started on Blair, Bush, Reagan and his contras and the US's sorry record on foreign policy in general. This claim that we criticise only Israel when lots of others are "just as bad" is childish and completely untrue. If this is thread is about antisemitism, a subject we disagree about, it is inevitable that we are going to mention Israel quite a lot, not least because of the attempts at conflation of criticism of the Israeli regime with real antisemitism. I'm not going to keep mentioning all those other rogue regimes every time I criticise Israeli regime policy just to level things up. In fact, if you try to insist that I do that, you are playing a part in promoting that conflation, which does nothing at all for the security that all Jewish people deserve. You are doing harm.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 10:37 AM

This from a friend of a friend:

"Last night, in an event hosted by seething jew-hater Baroness Tonge in the House of Lords, it was suggested Hitler only perpetrated his genocide of Jews after he was provoked by anti-German protests led by a rabbi in Manhattan. It was added that "Judea declared war on Germany." Israel was called a "perversion of judaism" and likened to Islamic State, asserted that a "Zionist movement" controlled UK politics and finance, whilst it was suggested Jews brought the holocaust on themselves.

I now look at the state of the United Kingdom's politics with despair and wonder if this is the country I want to remain in. Sadly, I can't make Aliyah."

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 11:58 AM

Source?

And if your "friend" leaves, please go with him, Bubio, and the sooner the better.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 12:05 PM

"Friend of a friend my arse." What a ridiculous post. Laughable.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 12:07 PM

Speech marks awry.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 01:26 PM

Baroness Tonge has left the Liberal Democrats following the party's decision to suspend her.

Gavin Stollar from Liberal Democrats Friends of Israel said: "Finally Baroness Tonge has reaped what she has sown. She is an anti-Israel zealot who can now espouse her offensive views outside our party."

She should apply to join the Labour party. She'd be welcomed with open arms.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 02:18 PM

"She should apply to join the Labour party. She'd be welcomed with open arms."

Ha. Copied verbatim from a Dan Hodges tweet. We always knew you didn't have a mind of your own. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 02:30 PM

Well plenty of antisemitism rumbles in the LibDems in recent months. I suppose they are less controversial because they're too little.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 10:18 AM

Well plenty of antisemitism rumbles in the LibDems in recent months

How many suspensions Steve?
And, do you acknowledge Tonge's anti semitism ?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 12:07 PM

I don't give a damn about the LibDems. For what it's worth, I didn't see evidence that that detestable woman has said anything antisemitic, but I really can't be arsed to discuss it with you.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 05:28 AM

I didn't see evidence that that detestable woman has said anything antisemitic,

Once again, you show that you define anti Semitism differently to everyone else, except for obvious anti Semites like Tonge.

Jim has disappeared rather than answer difficult questions, but you continue to just ignore them.
You asserted, as if it was a fact, the "the Israel lobby" manipulates governments and has a "cast iron grip" on the US government.

Once again, how does a mere lobby group do that? What hold does it have? What leverage?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 06:50 AM

That is a disgraceful post and does not deserve discussion. And how dare you accuse anyone of "disappearing" in order to avoid your questions. Unless you're privy to Jim's private affairs you need to keep your mouth shut. We don't comment in that adverse manner when you or Teribus "disappear" for days on end, do we?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 01:12 PM

You are still here Steve.
Why no answer to a reasonable question?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 03:10 PM

"Jim has disappeared rather than answer difficult questions"
Jim disappeared to see half a dozen good films in Dublin
"I think you should tell us why you post videos intended to demonize ordinary Jews,"
I don't - I point out what the murderous fascists who claim t represent the Jewish people say.
You blame the Jews for celebrating the burning to death of a child - how about explaining that one.
The pair of you have supported wartime British antisemitism as "harmless" - any explanation of that?
"Jim, I think you should tell us why you post videos intended to demonize ordinary Jews,"
I post videos which show the behaviour of extremists - not "ordinary Jews
It is antisemitic in the extreme to describe the celebration of the burning alive of a child as the behaviour of "Ordinary Jews"
You - not me describe these people as "Ordinary Jews" - behaviour such as that is inhuman - not "ordinary"
WHY DO YOU DESCRIBE IT AS THE BEHAVIOUR OF "ORDINARY JEWS - DO YOU REALLY HAVE SUCH A LOW OPINION OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE?
Donuel
Your unsubstantiated accusations of antisemitism are what they are unsubstantiateed and untrue - the offer I made to your friends is extended to you - I expct that it will be met with the same cowardly silence that it has from them
One thing this thread ahs attracted is a bunch of cowardly trolls with their hit-and-run accusations.
As Billy Connollly once nearly said - if you want to confue a troll- ask it a question.
The only antisemites here are those who accuse "ordinary Jews" of Israli crimes   
A couple of simple question Don - Keith has claimed that the Jews in the Labour Party of refusing to describe the antisemitism they claim has been happening in the Labour Party in defence of the party
1   Do you believe that to be true?
2   If it is not true, do you believe it to be antisemitic to have made such an accusation against a group of Jewish Politicians.
Won't hold my breath on this one any more than I did the last time I asked it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 07:17 PM

Typical fascistic behaviour of the anti-Semitic regressive left as they shout down free speech at the University College of London, much like their ilk here do: YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 01:10 AM

Ah but bobad, you forget that free speech as far as the hard-left goes is something that is reserved solely for them or anyone stating and supporting causes they espouse. With respect to any other point of view or opinion there is no such thing as free speech - as your link shows.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:58 AM

"Ah but bobad, you forget that free speech as far as the hard-left"
As you come from the extremist right and are prepared to defend every excess that that implies - including wartime British antisemitism in Britain - that comes a little rich from you.
The views you express are fascist by definition - that particular philosophy doesn't have a great track record on "free speech"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:19 AM

"free speech at the University College of London"
"Hen Mazzig"
Mazig is a former IDF member and a gofer for COGAT - a group co-coordinating activities between the Israeli Armed Forces, The Israeli Security Forces, The Government and the illegal settlers in the occupied territories.
He is a representative of a regime that has has yet to stand trial for the war crimes it has been seen to commit - his appearance at a British place of education can hardly be described as an example of "free speech".
I remember with a degree off pride witnessing similar demonstrations aimed at Apartheid South African representatives and those from the fascist Greek junta.
Long may people be allowed to express their disgust at such regimes - use that right or lose it, as far as I'm concerned.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:47 AM

Nonsense Teribus. Why, just yesterday a friend of mine in Bude was telling me that she had eggs thrown at her car because she had a poster in the car window supporting the housing of refugee families in the town. Doubt whether it was a bunch of lefties somehow.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:47 AM

Jim,
"I think you should tell us why you post videos intended to demonize ordinary Jews,"
I don't

But you did Jim.

- I point out what the murderous fascists who claim t represent the Jewish people say.

You have quoted a couple of ministers, but the videos were of ordinary Jews.


You blame the Jews for celebrating the burning to death of a child - how about explaining that one.

You posted a video of ordinary Jews supposedly doing exactly that Jim. Why?
In fact the video was of a Jewish wedding party where one person only was purported to be behaving badly with a photo of a child, but it was impossible to see what the photo was really of or what was really being done to it.

I post videos which show the behaviour of extremists - not "ordinary Jews

Yes, and you said you did it to show what is happening in Israel as if such behaviour was typical. That is a slander against Jews.

It is antisemitic in the extreme to describe the celebration of the burning alive of a child as the behaviour of "Ordinary Jews"

Yes it is Jim, and YOU appear to be guilty of it. That is why I asked you to explain, and you still need to.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 06:16 AM

"He is a representative of a regime that has has yet to stand trial for the war crimes it has been seen to commit"

A regime that has not been indicted of any offence so there is no question of them standing trial now or at any time in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 06:23 AM

"But you did Jim."
No I didn't Keith - I put them up as examples of Israeli extremism - it too k an antisemite to describe them as actions of "ordinary Jews"
"You have quoted a couple of ministers, but the videos were of ordinary Jews."
I put up quotes of ovr 50 of them - your response was
"Jim, I restrict myself to linking to media organs that normal people have heard of.
Why don't you?"
You never produced a single fact that any were false or inaccurate - not even your usual "bollocks" or "made-up shit"
I ask again - are they genuine - do you have any evidence to show they are not?
If they are - what possible objection can you have for them being put up?
"You posted a video of ordinary Jews supposedly doing exactly that Jim. Why?"
Ordinary Jews do not behave like savage animals in my experiance.
Hod#w dar you continue to denigrate the Jewish People in this manner?
These are extremists who have been incited to behave as they do by their political and religious leaders - I do not present them as 'typical' buut of what is happening today in fascist Israel.
The same happened in pre-war Germany when the people were incited to turn on the Jews - we all know the results of that
TOU ARE THE ONLY PERON (SIC) TO DESCRIBE THIS AS THE ACTION OF "ORDINARY JEWS"
Please stop smearing me with your shit.
I ask again - are those videos eal or not - if they are, why should you cencor them

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:37 AM

"A regime that has not been indicted of any offence "
The US has prevented action from being taken with over thirty vetoes
There is plenty of evidence that they are guilty of what they are accused of and Britain, POODLE-LIKE, is quite happy to lend a hand
You are quite happy to indict The Labour Party of the basis on no evidence whatever (accusations are not evidence, BTW.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 08:49 AM

This page has departed from discussion to invective throwing long ago

That the powers that be, allow this thread to be hung like a Swastika high atop the page, is despicable and shows the true colors of all the moderators here.

I now have to seriously suspect the entire website.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 09:28 AM

"This page has departed from discussion to invective throwing long ago"
Then why do you choose to indulge in it yourself with your accusations of "amtisemitism" - or have you granted yourself a special dispensation?
I assume you are not going to take up my offer - it stays open to all of you who throw your accusations around like confetti - your silence speaks volumes
Feel free to answer whenever you feel inclined
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 09:51 AM

"Yes - all criticism of Israel is Antisemitic" Netunyahu)
ONE ISRAELI VIEW
ANOTHER
AND ANOTHER
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 02:41 PM

Jim,
No I didn't Keith - I put them up as examples of Israeli extremism

But you said, "They show what is happening in Israel today Keith - why do you think I put them up?"

That is not what is happening in Israel today!
Such despicable behaviour, if it is happening at all, is confined to a tiny minority of sickos as you find in any population.

To suggest otherwise is a wicked slur on ordinary decent Israeli Jews.

I do not present them as 'typical' buut of what is happening today in fascist Israel

It is not typical of what is happening in Israel, and it is an anti-Semitic slur to claim that it is.

You never produced a single fact that any were false or inaccurate

If they were true they would have been reported in the normal media, and not just the anti-Israel sites you trawl in search of propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 02:48 PM

TOU ARE THE ONLY PERON (SIC) TO DESCRIBE THIS AS THE ACTION OF "ORDINARY JEWS"

No. I am the person denying that it is.
You posted videos, not of government officials, but of ordinary Israeli Jews which you claim shows sick behaviour and you tell us "They show what is happening in Israel today"

That is not what is happening in Israel today, and it is a slander on ordinary, decent Jews in Israel to claim it.

If it happens at all, and your videos are not at all convincing, it is confined to a tiny minority of sickos such as you find in any population.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:04 PM

"Yes - all criticism of Israel is Antisemitic" Netunyahu)

Faked quote Jim. He never said it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:23 PM

Say good-night, Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 04:32 AM

"That is not what is happening in Israel today!"
Then the videos were filmed where - on the moon?
"To suggest otherwise is a wicked slur on ordinary decent Israeli Jews."
No it isn't - it is an account of what The Israeli dream is being turned into by a right wigng regime.
You specifically blamed the "ordinary Jewish people" and equally specifically absolved the leadership - that is true antisemitism.
You have never supported the Jewish people - you described virulent wartime antisemitism as harmless because it was British - your concern was for the British establishment, not the millions of Jews that were herded into the gas chambers.
You blamed the Jewish politicians for suppressing the facts in so-called Labour antisemitism out of loyalty to the Party - your concern was denigrating the Labour Government, not the Jewish People.
Now you blame the "ordinary Jewish People" for the demonstrations of hate that have ben incited by generations of establishment and religious inspired hatred - yos carefully absolved the regime from all blame - pointing the finger at "ordinary Jewish People" - your concern is for the fascist state, not The Jewish People.
You refuse to comment on the fifty-odd quotes other than to say they should not have been put up.
And once again, you defend the statement of an extreme right wing leader.
You behaviour makes you an extremist right wing antisemite using The Jewish People as an excuse to absolve a very nasty regime
MORE FACTS to IGNORE or DENY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 07:04 AM

Jim,
You specifically blamed the "ordinary Jewish people"

No. I specifically defended them.

For years you have said that you have no issue with ordinary Israelis, just the government.
You have now revealed your true feelings by posting videos that you claim show ordinary Israelis behaving despicably, and telling us that is how Israel is.
It is not.
If any ordinary Israelis really do behave as you claim, they are a tiny minority of sickos such as you get in any population.

Your slander against ordinary Israeli Jews is based only on your prejudice Jim.

And once again, you defend the statement of an extreme right wing leader.

And once again you try to smear me with a lie.
I have not defended any statement of any leader.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 08:05 AM

"No. I specifically defended them."
You lie again Keith
"23 Oct 16 - 04:16 PM
Those videos you linked to did only show ordinary Jews, not government officials."
Are not these not your exact, unedited words - how unequivocal can you get than ORDINARY JEWS - NOT STATE OFFICIALS?
It is imbecilic to deny things you have actually written on the same thread
You are lying to defend you own antisemitic statements
Here they are again
1   You specifically blamed the "ordinary Jewish people" and equally specifically absolved the leadership - that is true antisemitism.
2   You described virulent wartime antisemitism as harmless because it was British - your concern was for the British establishment, not the millions of Jews that were herded into the gas chambers.
3   You blamed the Jewish politicians for suppressing the facts in so-called Labour antisemitism out of loyalty to the Party - your concern was denigrating the Labour Government, not the Jewish People.
Now you blame the "ordinary Jewish People" for the demonstrations of hate that have been incited by generations of establishment and religious inspired hatred - you carefully absolved the regime from all blame - pointing the finger at "ordinary Jewish People" - your concern is for the fascist state, not The Jewish People.
I have never accused the Jewish people of anything - not ever - prove I have.
Your sick argument here is typical of what is happening in Israel - war criminals blaming their crimes on The Jews.
The term "Self Hating Jews", used by the Israeli regime against Jews who condemn their policies, is one coined to describe Jews who expressed antisemitic views has now been despicably twisted to defend extremist behaviour - The Regime going to war against large sections of the Jewish People
You and your handful of supporters here have chosen your side in that particular fight - The Israeli regime versus dissident Jews.   
"I have not defended any statement of any leader."
Another feeble minded lie.
You denied that a minister called for the beheading of the Arabs, and then you went on to defend it, saying he didn't mean it.
You denied the Minister of Justice's statement calling for war against all Palestinians
Now you are denying writing "Faked quote Jim. He never said it."
Your crude denials of what is put in front of you is totally mindless
And still you refuse to respond to the fifty odd examples of incitement to hatred by Israeli leaders.
Another set of facts to ignore
"A Good Jew Hates Arabs
Hatred of Arabs is part of the test of loyalty and identity that the state gives its Jewish citizens - a loyal Israeli will leave an Arab to die, because 'he's an Arab.'
The young criminals who mercilessly beat Jamal Julani and his cousins simply because they're Arabs don't live in settlements, haven't occupied any cities and haven't taken control of any terraced hills in the territories. Perhaps they participated in one of those tours the Education Ministry has been sponsoring in Hebron to deepen kids' familiarity with their Jewish heritage and heard something there about an occupation.
The haste with which some are tying the violence perpetrated in Jerusalem last week to the corrupting influence of the occupation is superfluous. The horrifying quote from one of the teenage suspects, that Julani, nearly beaten to death, "could die for all I care - he's an Arab," is not a result of the occupation. It's an inseparable part of the culture, which may have been fashioned somewhat by the occupation. But to hate Arabs and to want them dead; to stand aside, as dozens of passersby did in this case without intervening; to arrest a sick Palestinian, as one policeman has done, and leave him to die - that's already a worldview.
It's not necessary to read the disgusting book "The King's Torah," in which rabbis Yitzhak Shapira and Yosef Elitzur - from the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva in Yitzhar - write that "the ban on killing a gentile does not stem from the intrinsic value of his life, which is not essentially legitimate as such." These are the rabbis of the occupation, the arbiters of Jewish law for those hooligans on the hilltops. They belong to a different country, one in which the laws of the State of Israel are deemed worthless.
It would be better to examine the shocking words of Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu, the rabbi of Safed, an Israeli city, who is subordinate by law to the Israeli education system. Eliyahu has determined that "Arabs live by different codes, by violent norms that have become an ideology. Like agricultural thefts are an ideology. Like extorting protection money from farmers in the Negev is an ideology."
And what does the Arab want? Not just to steal pipes or flocks of sheep from Jewish farmers. The Arab, as we know, always has his eyes on the daughters of Israel.
Talila Nesher, the education reporter for Haaretz, revealed in June a civics review book that helps pupils "understand" who this Arab is. The book reprints a letter issued by several rabbis' wives that urges Jewish girls to keep away from Arabs. In the sample matriculation test included in the book, the pupils are asked to give their opinion about the letter, and, as might be expected of a book that preps teens for the matriculation exam, it also supplies correct answers.
In this case, the answer reads as follows: "The association of Jewish girls with Arabs is liable to lead to relationships and even marriage. This assimilation of Jewish girls with members of the Arab minority will harm the preservation of the Jewish majority in the State of Israel." An additional argument is: "When Jewish girls associate with Arabs, it may put them at risk for nationalist reasons, and their right to life and security is liable to be undermined."
While this particular book is not under the supervision of the Education Ministry, thousands of copies have been sold as study aids for the matriculation exam.
Israeli "literature" promoting hate of Arabs predates the occupation. The children's book series "Danidin" by Shraga Gafni is full of expressions and illustrations that laid excellent infrastructure for Arab-hatred. The "Mikraot Yisrael" (Israeli Readers ) series, which helped educate hundreds of thousands of Israeli children, is striking in terms of the "incitement" concealed within it.
Similar books published in the Palestinian Authority keep those who monitor Palestinian incitement very busy. But there isn't really a need to list all the recipes for Arab-hatred that have been fed to us, and which we developed on our own, in order to come up with a defense for those criminals in Jerusalem, whose "only crime" was to do what Israeli pedagogy and the "Death-to-Arabs" ethos directed them to do.
This is an ethos that will continue to be an integral part of the Israeli-Jewish national identity, even if the occupation were to end tomorrow. Because "Death to the Arabs" isn't an expression of "routine" hatred of those who are different, or the loathsome slogan of some "price tag" gang. It does not resemble the xenophobia or the fear of Muslims that characterizes European racism.
Hatred of Arabs is part of the test of loyalty and identity that the state gives its Jewish citizens. A good Jew hates Arabs. A loyal Israeli will leave an Arab to die, because "he's an Arab." And someone who isn't like that, as we know, "sleeps with Arabs."
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/a-good-jew-hates-arabs-1.459832

Zvi Bar'el is the Middle Eastern affairs analyst for Haaretz Newspaper. He is a columnist and a member of the editorial board. Previously he has been the managing editor of the newspaper, the correspondent in Washington and has also covered the Occupied Territories.
Bar'el has been with Haaretz since 1982, and has written extensively on the Arab and Islamic world. In 2009, he was awarded the Sokolov prize for lifetime achievement in print journalism.
Bar'el has a Ph.D in the History of the Middle East. He teaches at Sapir Academic College and is a research fellow at the Truman Institute at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, as well as at the Center for Iranian Studies.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/a-good-jew-hates-arabs-1.459832"
Does Haaretz com under your "media organs that normal people have heard of".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 11:08 AM

Antisemitic thugs break up a peaceful meeting of Jews at the University College in London (10-27-2016). Instead of the police removing the criminals, they remove the Jews. Then they parade the Jews in front of the thugs. The Jews are humiliated, insulted, and harassed, like the Nazis humiliated, insulted and harassed the Jews in the 40's

Video

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 12:15 PM

Those videos you linked to did only show ordinary Jews, not government officials."

They did Jim. I was truthful and accurate.
They were just wedding guests and revellers on a national day.
You used to claim that you had no issues with ordinary Jews, just the Israeli government.

You let your mask slip and posted videos attacking ordinary Jews.
Why?
You said they showed what it is like in Israel.

That is a lie against ordinary, decent Jews in Israel.
Your videos do not show what you claim they do.
If any Jews are guilty of such vile behaviour as you claim, it would just be a tiny minority of sickos that you get in any population.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 03:15 PM

"They did Jim. I was truthful and accurate."
So it was truthful and accurate that "ordinary Jews" celebrated the death of burned to death children and the politicians bore no blame - do I have thay right?
It was ordinary Jews who marched through the streets of Tel Aviv demanding the annihilation of all Palestinians and the politicians bore no blame - is that right?
That's exactly what you said.
"and the politicians bore no blame"No. It only shows groups of Jews, not government officials."
So - if the politicians had nothing to do with all this - then it must be how you regard the behaviour of "ordinary Jews" - is that right?
When will you ever learn - every time you put finger to keyboard you dig yourself further in the shit-hole you have created for yourself
First, your defence of "harmless" antisemitism by British fascists at a time when German Jews were being primed for Auschwitz.
Then your Jewish pact of silence in Parliament to protect the Party.
Then your refusing to accept that the hate speech of Israeli leaders has bought about these demonstrations of obscene hatred and it is all the fault of "ORDINARY JEWS
I don't blame the ordinary Jewish people - you do.
I don't absolve the leaders for inciting these crimes against human beings - you do - just as you have excused every single crime these monsters have been guilty of.
My target has always been the Israeli regime - yours has always been the Jewish people who oppose that regime
Your description of the Jewish People is as obscenely racist as is your view of the "Implanted Muslims".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 07:38 AM

So it was truthful and accurate that "ordinary Jews" celebrated the death of burned to death children and the politicians bore no blame - do I have thay right?

That is what YOU claimed and I denied.
YOU posted video links of ordinary Jews, not politicians, supposedly behaving like evil monsters though the videos did not actually show that.

YOU justified it as showing what happens in Israel, but it does not.
The great majority of Israeli Jews are ordinary, decent people and your posts were a vile slur on them.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 11:37 AM

The violent vicious anti-Semitic posts that Joe and Max allow to grow is not their fault.

It is the fault of the anti-Semitic fathers of the Jew hating people who feel a need to spew their hate here and sustain the hate of their fathers.

Dear haters, Your father's mistake was wrong then as it is now.
Defend your father if you must but their mistakes are already written on stone memorials.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 12:01 PM

"That is what YOU claimed and I denied."
You are lying openly now Keith - which is fine
I have duplicated your exact words and linked it to your postings

22 Oct 16 - 02:51 PM
Jim, what is the message of all your links?
Do they really show Jews doing what you claim? I doubt it.
If they do, what does it tell us about Jews?
Or is it supposed to tell us something about the Israeli government?
"No. It only shows groups of Jews, not government officials."
How can you continue publicly humiliating yourself like this Keith - haven't you flagellated yourself enough.
The people who demonstrated in the disgusting way they did were responding to many years of hate inciting statements by Israeli leaders.
You have supported those leaders and backed up their hate filled statements, first by denying them, then by ignoring them.
I have always blamed the leaders - you are now blaming The Jews.
Ask your cowardly troll friend Donuel, which viewpoint is antiemitic, though I doubt if he has the bottle to respond - cowardly trolls don't do that sort of thing
Please keep this up - it makes my point perfectly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 12:31 PM

Earlier examples of your antisemisim

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:57 PM
Jim Carroll
"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."
Keith
"Who was it?
What is your source?
Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary!"

One of the "silly songs" referred to.

Land of dope and Jewry
Land that once was free
All the Jew boys praise thee
Whilst they plunder thee
Poorer still and poorer
Grow thy true-born sons
Faster still and faster
They're sent to feed the guns.

Land of Jewish finance
Fooled by Jewish lies
In press and books and movies
While our birthright dies
Longer still and longer
Is the rope they get
But—by the God of battles
'Twill serve to hang them yet.

Another
"Onward, conscript army…you have naught to fear.
Isaac Hore-Belisha …will lead you from the rear.
Clad by Monty Burton [Jewish clothes- and uniform maker],… fed on Lyons' pies [Jewish restaurant and tea shop chain];
Fight for Yiddish conquests …while the Briton dies.
Onward, conscript army, marching on to war.
Fight and die for Jewry… as we did before.
.
You must die for Poland…pay your debt of thanks
All your benefactors…international banks.
So place against the Germans…beneath the Jewish star
Onward toward the shambles…Goy cattle that you are!
"Poor, persecuted Jewry"…will finance war again.
Forward for the slaughter… for the Hebrews' gain.

Driven toward the shambles…like a flock of sheep
By lying propaganda…by their plans laid deep.
So for Israel Moses Sieff…you must fight and die
That Marks & Spencer's [department store] neon sign…May still light up our sky.
Forward, on to Poland…10 million men shall fall,
That Judah's reign of terror…May hold us all in thrall."

What was happening when these "HARMLESS POEMS" were being written

Any comment on this Donuel? - no? - thought not!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 12:43 PM

"Which side are you on, tell me which side are you on" olde union song

Once upon a time people entertained the fallacy of neutral actors/fence sitters.

In the internet age that fallacy has died.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 01:16 PM

Jim, you quote me in big red letters. The quote is accurate and I stand by it.

"It (YOUR LINKED VIDEO) only shows groups of Jews, not government officials."

Your attack was on ordinary Jews, not politicians.
You said you did it to show what is going on in Israel.
It is a wicked lie to claim that is how it is in Israel, as if such behaviour is common.
It s far from clear that even your videos depict any such behaviour.

You are guilty of attempting to demonize ordinary Jews in Israel.
I am defending them.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 01:36 PM

"Jim, you quote me in big red letters. The quote is accurate and I stand by it."
So you believe the Jews are guilty and the hate mongers are innocent]
Good enough for me Keith.
"Your attack was on ordinary Jews, not politicians."
You've just confirmed that that is your stance - not mine.
Mac appears to have hasd his question asnswered
"What does 'anti-semitism' mean?"
This is what it means Mac - blaming the Jews for the crimes Israel is committing
Couldn't get a cleared confession than this.
Didn't expect an answer Donuel - I believe Sefridges do a good line in spines nowadays - why not try one?
You've allowed this "ordinary Jew-hating" turd to smear you with his antisemitic garbage - never mind, you are third in line.
Till the next time Keith - now where did I put your C.V.?
Over and out.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 01:51 PM

So you believe the Jews are guilty and the hate mongers are innocent]

No Jim.
I believe there may be a tiny minority of sickos as in any population, but your videos that you claim show sick behaviour do not, and the great majority of Jews are good and decent people.
It is a wicked slur to suggest otherwise, AS YOU DID JIM!


On another subject, I now have a copy of Israel's Secret Wars by Ian Black and Benny Morris.
The anti-Israel sites you trawl for propaganda lied.
There is no mention of the disposal of bodies after the massacre, and no claim that Israelis assisted in it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 08:13 AM

Re. definiion of anti semitism, UK Police College endorses the EUMC definition.
Steve and others who claimed that definition to be defunct, take note.
http://www.college.police.uk/What-we-do/Support/Equality/Documents/Hate-Crime-Operational-Guidance.pdf#search=antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 08:34 AM

In view of the deplorable rise in the number of anti-Semitic hate incidents in the UK it is encouraging that the Police College has adopted the EUMC definition.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 09:49 AM

Well, Keith, the College of Policing (not "the Police College" as you both incorrectly call it) has neither "endorsed" nor "adopted" the EUMC document. The College's document that you linked to reproduces it and discusses elements of it, but says, perfectly explicitly, that it does NOT replace their definition of hate crime. Nowhere will you see a declaration that it has either been endorsed or adopted. Once again, you try to slip this kind of thing by us, assuming that we must be fools. Well we're not fools, But you two are the most dishonest people it's ever been my misfortune to encounter on any discussion forum. You do it by serial lying and bobad does it both by lying and pretending to be two different people. Nice.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 11:15 AM

Not worth making the point to these people Steve, but the rise in antisemitism has in Britain has been put down largely to the swing to the right in Britain brought about by Brexit
Hatred of Jews has always featured largely among hate crimes and those crimes have always been firmly in the domain of the political right - it was right-wing German Industrial capitalism that herded six million Jews into the gas chambers.
No doubt, the tactic adopted by the Israeli Regime of using The Jewish People as human shields to protect itself from persecution for war crimes hasn't helped.
It's interesting to not that 2 to 1 British Jews voted against leaving Europe - obviously the ones who leared from their own history.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 01:01 PM

the rise in antisemitism has in Britain has been put down largely to the swing to the right in Britain brought about by Brexit

"The rise in antisemitism in Britain is a "core part of far-Left ideology," according to a new report released in the UK.

The report, which the Daily Mail referred to as "alarming, was published by the volunteer-led charity the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism. And though it comes on the heels of a recent series of scandals surrounding the open expression of anti-Jewish sentiment in the Labour Party, its data refers to 2015 – during which, it revealed, there was a 50 percent increase in violent attacks against Jews from the previous year."

New Report Calls Rise in British Antisemitism 'Core Part of Far-Left Ideology'

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 01:13 PM

Steve, The EUMC definition of anti semitism is given in addition to, not instead of, the rather brief "hate crime" definition.
That is the message in parenthesis that you quote.

" The EUMC working definition helps to explain some of the characteristics that may be present in antisemitic hate crime. These include circumstances that amount to hate crimes and those that are likely to be non-crime hate incidents."

Of course the EUMC definition is endorsed. Why else is it quoted?
You should pay particular attention to their statement immediately following the EUMC definition,
"Such manifestations(of anti Semitism) could also target the State of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivist. "

You have repeatedly shown that you are unable to discern anti-Semitism, most recently that of Tonge, when it is clear and obvious to the rest of the world.
It is your definition that is defunct!

Do you find it acceptable for Jim to post very dubious videos purporting to show a tiny number of Jews behaving despicably, and use them to claim that that is what Israel is like?
He wants us to believe such behaviour is typical of Jews and not just a tiny minority, if any.
OK or anti semitic?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 01:14 PM

the rise in antisemitism has in Britain has been put down largely to the swing to the right in Britain brought about by Brexit


"All was not so quiet on the university front, where the campus was besieged by hordes of over-righteous über-zealots with the sense of humor of a post-Thatcher coal mine—long closed and largely forgotten. Decrying all logic, the radical left jumped into bed with the radical Islamic societies—figuratively, of course, the literal was left to the rest of us—and their causes célèbres being the demonization of Israel and the quest to expel Jewish societies from the student body."

Britain's Anti-Semitism Isn't Limited to the Radical Left

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 01:15 PM

The accusation is made by Gideon Falter who is an ac#tive supporter of the Israeli military activity against the Palestinians - particularly the last murderous incursion into Gaza
We know how many civilians were massacred by the Israelis in 2014 during 'Operation Protective Edge' and it is hardly surprising that somebody supporting that massacre should be outraged at non-existent antisemitism when he considers criticism of Israel antisemitic   
He still fails to describe the Antisemitsm so we can assume that he means 'opposition to Israeli militarism'
Jim Carroll

"Gideon Falter, chairman of the Campaign Against Antisemitism UK (CAA), initially became involved with the nascent group because of his outrage at British media during Operation Protective Edge. The British media, he said, held Israel to impossible standards, thereby fueling antisemitism. A group of like-minded people soon organized, and Falter was the chief organizer of the CAA's rally outside the Royal Courts of Justice calling for zero tolerance law enforcement against antisemitism. The British government already has taken notice of CAA, and Home Secretary Theresa May has commented on the results of its Antisemitism Barometer survey."

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 01:19 PM

From Wikipedia:

"Contemporary antisemitism in Britain has become more complex and multifaceted, evolving its own vocabulary[4] and imagery.[5] It is perpetrated principally by the far-left, far-right and Islamists, whose distinct forms of antisemitism have gradually merged with one another.[6]"

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 01:31 PM

Jim,
the rise in antisemitism has in Britain has been put down largely to the swing to the right in Britain brought about by Brexit

No Jim. The reported doubling in incidents long predates Brexit.

Telegraph on the report,
"Attacks spiked during the summer months(2014), around the time of the Israeli action in Gaza, but the report notes that incidents were already above average levels in the early half of the year."

"The figures are likely to provide only a snapshot. But separate figures from Scotland Yard show a similar pattern, with reports of anti-Semitic hate crime more than doubling but Islamophobic attacks also rising significantly"

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 01:38 PM

The CAA came into being in 2014 - Falter became its chairman that year and, whatever its original policy, has it into yet another Israeli propaganda group.
Jim Carroll "
By the way -he vidoes are genuine until anybody proves them otherwise - so far we have one taker - who has denied every piece of evidence against Israel to date
Do you find it acceptable for Jim to post very dubious videos
"Oh bring your witness love, and I'll never deny you" -as the song goes
Evidence he is now trying to suppress
MAIL on LIne
NEW YORK TIMES
TIMES of ISRAEL
Childcare
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 01:44 PM

Kenan Malik, writing in the New York Times, makes some salient points regarding the left and anti-Semitism:

"Yet neither the cynicism nor the hypocrisy should distract us from the problem of anti-Semitism — not just in the Labour Party, but on the political left more generally. It is not that the left is packed with anti-Semites; rather, too many among them have been willing to accommodate bigotry.

This acquiescence is rooted in the changing character of the left in recent years. Anti-Semitism used to be a problem primarily of the right. It wasn't that the left had a totally clean bill of health — there is a history of left-wing anti-Semitism — but its firm foundation of universal values and egalitarian principles established a proud tradition of fighting bigotry against Jews.

In recent decades, however, much of the left has retreated from these commitments."

The British Left's 'Jewish Problem'

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 01:58 PM

Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing repeatedly and getting the same mal-result. Over two weeks in and no change in anyone's position, an exemplar of this if ever there was one. And this is not the first time these threads have gone on seemingly forever.

You may now continue, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 02:08 PM

"Kenan Malik"
Malik's "interesting point is that it has become difficult to distinguish between criticism and antisemitism, which is entirely due to the fact that the Israeli regime are using the Jewish People as a whole as human shields against condemnation of their policies by making criticism of their actions "antisemitic"- which is, of course, antisemitic in the extreme.
In these circumstances, no workable definition of the term can ever be agreed as, to do so would breach every human rights law in existence.
You cannot make an accusation of prejudice an excuse for mass-murder.
Malik carefully links accusations of antisemitism to criticism of Israeli policies.
He is right, of course, it is wrong to blame the Jewish People for Israel's crimes - but if Israel is going to insist on it, it is hardly surprising that others follow suit.
None of these atrocity deniers have ever responded to the fact that these accusations against the Labour Party surfaced only weeks after Labour reiterated its support for B.D.S.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 02:18 PM

The EUMC "working definition" was reproduced in full on the EUMC website but never even "endorsed or adopted" by the EUMC, the EU or by anyone else connected, and for very good reasons. It was unceremoniously ditched by their successor in 2013, dropped like a hot potato, and quite right too. Just because you reproduce something on a website it doesn't mean you've endorsed it or adopted it. If the College of Policing wanted to endorse it or adopt it they would have said so. They are hardly pusillanimous about such things, are they? You can't get this right just like you can't get anything right. You, then your poodle bobad, doing his brainless copycat thing, both referred to the body as "the Police College" (he did a similar thing the other day when he reproduced somebody else's tweet verbatim, pretending it was his own thought). Well there are police colleges in the country, there to train people as members of the police force. The College of Policing is a professional association, nothing to do with training new bobbies, you clown. You didn't know the difference, did you, yet here you are making unsupported claims about their adopted policies. Busted, disgusting, can't be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 02:22 PM

Should read "criticism of Israel" of course
"distinguish between criticism and antisemitism,"
"no change in anyone's position,"
These things are never about changing anybody's position JoSC
This particular 'thing' is about putting right deliberately circulated misinformation
Your views on the argument would be far more welcome than your sniping from the sideline.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 02:39 PM

Steve,
If the College of Policing wanted to endorse it or adopt it they would have said so.

They did. Their website clearly endorses it, however much you deny it.

Jim, two of your links are about the wedding party video.
It shows about a hundred or more guests at a wedding party.
We are told that ONE of them "APPEARS TO BE" behaving badly.
We are told he appears to be stabbing a photograph of a dead child, but the photo is just a blur and no knife is visible.

At worst we have one person behaving badly. How is that evidence of what Israel is like and how Jews behave? It is racist to generalise like that.

The third link is about a small right wing counter demo to a much larger demonstration. A minority.
Some are singing nasty things. A minority of a minority. We are told that their fellow demonstrators were trying to stop them.

How is that evidence of what Israel is like and how Jews behave? It is racist to generalise like that.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 02:44 PM

More importantly, Bubo and Professor, what does "Having your head wedged up your arse" mean?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 02:49 PM

I have demonstrated to you that the College of Policing have not said anywhere that you can show me that they have either endorsed or adopted that confounded definition that you stick to like shit to a blanket. Your parroting out that yes they have, unsupported, is just ridiculous. Why, you didn't even know what the body in question was. How are we then supposed to believe that you're clever enough to analyse their policies? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 03:14 PM

GregtrF,

" what does "Having your head wedged up your arse" mean?"

That you are GregtrF.



Seems pretty obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 03:34 PM

Steve,
I have demonstrated to you that the College of Policing have not said anywhere that

No. You just quoted a bracketed statement claiming that it dismissed the whole thing!
It id not.

They say,
" The EUMC working definition helps to explain some of the characteristics that may be present in antisemitic hate crime."

That is an endorsement, and they go on to quote the whole thing.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 03:43 PM

Keith, methinks Shaw is getting worried that the police may use the criteria outlined in the EUMC definitions to prosecute anti-Semites for hate crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 03:46 PM

Absolute rubbish. When you endorse something you say "I endorse this." Believe it or not, I also can pick good bits out of that definition. But I do not endorse it. And neither does the College of Policing (have you sorted out what it is yet? Don't forget to tell bobad when you do!😂)

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 03:50 PM

There was only one EUMC definition, bobad, and the only people who ever "adopted" it were hopeful hangers-on, never the body that spawned the EUMC, never the EUMC itself, never its successor body. It was stillborn, bobad. Never ratified. Ditched in 2013. Get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 03:59 PM

More importantly, Bubo and Professor, what does "Having your head wedged up your arse" mean?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 04:06 PM

GregtrF,

" what does "Having your head wedged up your arse" mean?"

That you are GregtrF.



Seems pretty obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 04:12 PM

IHRA definition of anti semitism adopted by 31 member countries

To guide IHRA in its work, the following examples may serve as illustrations:

Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish
collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be
regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it
is often used to blame Jews for "why things go wrong." It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms
and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the
religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:


Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology
or an extremist view of religion.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other
societal institutions.

Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a
single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.

Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the
Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices
during World War II (the Holocaust).

Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.

Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews
worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence
of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other
democratic nation.

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing
Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 04:44 PM

No problem with most of that Bobad - you apparently have though - doesn't that make you antisemitic?
". However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
Every time someone criticises Israel, you accuse them of being antisemitic, therefore you are holding Jews collectively responsible for the actions of the State of Israel.
These definitions were drawn up before Israel became a fascist state - nowdays it it common to read comparisons between the current Israeli regime a\nd the Nazis - from Gentiles and Jews alike - including Israelis; heads heads of Mossad, Army Generals, Rabbis, Holocaust Survivors and their families - it is now common to read accusations camparint Israel to a fascist state, incuding in the Israeli press.
If a state behaves as the Nazis did - comparisons are inevitable
"We are told that ONE of them "APPEARS TO BE" behaving badly."
You select one line from one link Keith and totally ignore every other link that makes no bones about what was taking place
here is no question of what was happening there - you chose the onne where the wording is ambiguous, but in fact describes what the others say specifically
You blame the Jews - I blame those who have incited those people - just as I did when Enoch Powell incited the East End Dockers to demonstrate against immigrants   
Yours in the antisemitism not mine
It slots in perfectly with your other displays of antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:57 PM
Jim Carroll
"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."
Keith
"Who was it?
What is your source?
Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary!"

One of the "silly songs" referred to.

Land of dope and Jewry
Land that once was free
All the Jew boys praise thee
Whilst they plunder thee
Poorer still and poorer
Grow thy true-born sons
Faster still and faster
They're sent to feed the guns.

Land of Jewish finance
Fooled by Jewish lies
In press and books and movies
While our birthright dies
Longer still and longer
Is the rope they get
But—by the God of battles
'Twill serve to hang them yet.

Another
"Onward, conscript army…you have naught to fear.
Isaac Hore-Belisha …will lead you from the rear.
Clad by Monty Burton [Jewish clothes- and uniform maker],… fed on Lyons' pies [Jewish restaurant and tea shop chain];
Fight for Yiddish conquests …while the Briton dies.
Onward, conscript army, marching on to war.
Fight and die for Jewry… as we did before.
.
You must die for Poland…pay your debt of thanks
All your benefactors…international banks.
So place against the Germans…beneath the Jewish star
Onward toward the shambles…Goy cattle that you are!
"Poor, persecuted Jewry"…will finance war again.
Forward for the slaughter… for the Hebrews' gain.

Driven toward the shambles…like a flock of sheep
By lying propaganda…by their plans laid deep.
So for Israel Moses Sieff…you must fight and die
That Marks & Spencer's [department store] neon sign…May still light up our sky.
Forward, on to Poland…10 million men shall fall,
That Judah's reign of terror…May hold us all in thrall."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 04:50 PM

That was the last response to you I am going to make Keith
You want to continue your dishonest denials, at least go and find a "real person" who sell his his books in "real bookshops".
Responding to your denials is like trying to feed a severely disabled child
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 08:57 AM

Jim,
You select one line from one link Keith and totally ignore every other link that makes no bones about what was taking place

The journalist on each link can only see what we see.
You can not identify what the photo is of or see a knife.
Even if they do show what is claimed, it is racist to take the actions of a few and generalise to all Jews.
There are a few sickos in all populations.
You were wrong and racist to say that it shows what Israel is like.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 09:11 AM

Steve,
When you endorse something you say "I endorse this."

Absolute rubbish.
They endorse it by saying that they use it.

"However, for those seeking a definition of antisemitism, the UK's College of Policing does include a working definition of antisemitism in their guidance to police forces in the UK. The full guidance is available from their website here    and the definition is reproduced in full here:"

There follows the full EUMC definition.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/a-definition-of-antisemitism



The College of Policing describe EUMC definition's aims and how it came about, but do not add that it is defunct because it isn't.

They say how it is used in policing.

They print the EUMC definition in full and certainly do not say it should be ignored or even any part of it.

http://www.college.police.uk/What-we-do/Support/Equality/Documents/Hate-Crime-Operational-Guidance.pdf#search=antisemitism

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 09:44 AM

"The journalist on each link can only see what we see."
The Jurnalist who put it up entitled the film - he spoke Hebrew - you don't (I assume)
"it is racist to take the actions of a few and generalise to all Jews."
To do what exactly?
There are many examples of persecutio of Arabs by Israelis - including beating to death burning down homes.
Thousands took to the streets of Tel Aviv demanding the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians - not a million miles away from the Justice Minister's and other politicians' demanding similar.
Inciting mobs to display their hatred is common to all societies - it happened in pre-war Britain and later when Powell climbed on the rostrum with his 'Rivers of Blood' obscenity.
You want to see decent people in their thousands whipped into a frenzy of hate by demagogues - skip though news items from Belfast and Derry at any point in the 20th century
TRY THIS FOR SIZE
Hate-inflamed incursions into Gaza two years ago killed 2,500 and injured 17,000 Palestinians, 1,492 of them were civilians.
I blame the hate-merchants - you blame the ordinary "Jews" and totally absolve those who incited them
That is racism at its most extreme.
You history on this forum i one of support for desppots and human rights criminals
You describe the Irish as a hate-filled, brainwashed nation - you describe British Muslims as culturally-implanted potential perverts, you blamed the Belfast riouits which took place a few years ago - not on the Unionist fanatics and their sectarian marches, but on "children".
In your world, Travellers have no right to follow their born-to lifestyle, you have no problem with Governments selling weapons to mass murderers, and you see nothing wrong with British Antisemitism at a time when Jews were about to be herded into gas chambers.
And you describe yourself a Christian!
I thank Christ for my atheism!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 12:09 PM

Jim, this is about anti Semitism, not Israel.
I do like discussing Israel with you, so please start a thread or reopen one of the very many existing ones.

It is racist to seize on the actions of a few individuals and use them to demonize a whole ethnic group.
That is what you tried to do with your videos, which do not unequivocally show what you claim anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 12:13 PM

Jim, none of the personal stuff you accuse me of is true.
When you resort to lying personal smears, it means you have no real arguments to put up.
You might as well put up a white flag.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 01:41 PM

"Jim, none of the personal stuff you accuse me of is true."
I think there are enough people around to know yur track record but I'mm happy to pull it up if you like
Christ almighty- your "brainwashed to hate Britain" accusation was only a few months ago
I've lost count of the number of times you've confirmed your "implant" claim.
It's all there Keith - I'll make a start of putting it together tonight
How stupidly dishonest can you get?
This one from a few posts up to be going on with

ubject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:57 PM
Jim Carroll
"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."
Keith
"Who was it?
What is your source?
Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary!"

One of the "silly songs" referred to.

Land of dope and Jewry
Land that once was free
All the Jew boys praise thee
Whilst they plunder thee
Poorer still and poorer
Grow thy true-born sons
Faster still and faster
They're sent to feed the guns.

Land of Jewish finance
Fooled by Jewish lies
In press and books and movies
While our birthright dies
Longer still and longer
Is the rope they get
But—by the God of battles
'Twill serve to hang them yet.

Another
"Onward, conscript army…you have naught to fear.
Isaac Hore-Belisha …will lead you from the rear.
Clad by Monty Burton [Jewish clothes- and uniform maker],… fed on Lyons' pies [Jewish restaurant and tea shop chain];
Fight for Yiddish conquests …while the Briton dies.
Onward, conscript army, marching on to war.
Fight and die for Jewry… as we did before.
.
You must die for Poland…pay your debt of thanks
All your benefactors…international banks.
So place against the Germans…beneath the Jewish star
Onward toward the shambles…Goy cattle that you are!
"Poor, persecuted Jewry"…will finance war again.
Forward for the slaughter… for the Hebrews' gain.

Driven toward the shambles…like a flock of sheep
By lying propaganda…by their plans laid deep.
So for Israel Moses Sieff…you must fight and die
That Marks & Spencer's [department store] neon sign…May still light up our sky.
Forward, on to Poland…10 million men shall fall,
That Judah's reign of terror…May hold us all in thrall."
"Jim, this is about anti Semitism, not Israel."
You really do have to be joking!!!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 01:49 PM

And this

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM

"YOU HAVE HAD NOT ONE IOTO OF SUPPORT"

Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive.

Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree.
Massachusetts?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 02:21 PM

Jim Carroll:
I searched this thread for 'silly songs' and only came up with your two posts. It is not clear to me what you are trying to say by including what are most definitely anti-semitic song lyrics. Are you implying they were posted by someone else elsewhere or are you trying to out-offend someone?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 02:57 PM

Jim, instead of debating the issues you dredge up years old posts to try to smear me.
All the posts are completely reasonable when looked at in the context of their thread, for instance I quoted Irish historians who stated that Irish schools brainwashed kids.

Drop the personal stuff and stick to the current issues, if you can.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 03:40 PM

Guess this Lapid guy is a Anti-Semite, eh?

" Yair Lapid said that Israel must find a way to separate from the Palestinians, as soon as possible, with the establishment of an independent Palestinian state. With continued Israeli control over millions of Palestinians who do not have voting rights, "we will either lose the Jewish majority or the democratic nature of Israel or both.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 03:45 PM

"Jim, instead of debating the issues you dredge up years old posts to try to smear me
Finished here Keith - you have lied consistently and have been found out
You have just denied making these statements, now you are trying to justify them again - you are an unqualified mess with no respect for yourself, not off anybody else on this forum - foul up every thread you touch by trying to "win" something.
Yur latest effort is a prime example of your behaviour.
Go away and leve these subjects to those who are genuinely interested in them.
I really don't think there is anything more to say, but I have no doubt that you'll say it anyway
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 11:27 AM

I do not lie Jim.
You always resort to misrepresenting years old posts when you are losing the current debate.

Your reliance on anti-Israel propaganda sites has made a liar of you.
You pass on lies as if they were facts without questioning or checking.
Just four weeks ago you said, "Benny Morris's' admitting to burying the massacre victim," referring to statements supposedly made in his book.
I have that book in front of me. He has never said any such thing. It was just lying propaganda.

On this thread you have disgraced yourself.
It is racist to seize on the actions of a few individuals and use them to demonize a whole ethnic group.
That is what you tried to do with your videos, which do not unequivocally show what you claim anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 12:41 PM

Jim, why not acknowledge that Israeli Jews are mostly good and decent people, and that all ethnic groups have a minority of nasties.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 10:30 PM

Keith - I once asked on an earlier thread if you were a jew...
and you got all affronted and huffy like I had deeply offended you..

"How dare you punkfolkrocker ask my ethnic identity and imply i am a jew..."


Well.. as you may remember i am 1/4 jew by blood...

and owing to your lack of honest disclosure possibly more jew than you...

so why are youi still bangiong on in defense of an obviously corrupt and despotic national government...???

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 10:33 PM

Jim Carroll:

You remind me a bit of the joke of the Irishman who sees a pair of brawlers on the sidewalk and asks "Is this a private fight, or can anyone join in?"

You almost, almost, I say, seem to be saying "I dare one of you yids to call me an anti-semite!"

I, for one, am not calling you nor anyone else on this thread, an anti-semite. I think several people have revealed much about themselves by their manner of posting, and that's just fine.

The field of anti-semitism after all, has a very long history with its own developmental roots and branches. Anti-Semitism itself is its own religion. I am tempted to expand on that but it would take this thread beyond its Original Post.

As far as the Labour Party is concerned I think some party members were quoted saying some ignorant and wrong things, and were properly brought up on them. Were their reactions satisfactory? That is a matter of opinion.

I generally prefer to hear people out and speak to their words, then see how intransigent they are. I try to allow for people to have the capacity to learn and grow. I hope I have that capacity for myself. Real anti-semites are all around, there are web-sites of them. But to allow oneself to be afraid of them or become like them is to lose. Americans in general are NOT anti-semitic and it is important to me to never go into a conversation with such an assumption. The English have a long history of anti-semitism which is its own variety. As I mentioned above, the English had it in for Jews, but not to outright genocide, and that matters ("An anti-semite is someone who hates Jews more than absolutely necessary").

In this forum it appears as if some pre-existing history between members is being thrashed out, and I am not going to get involved with it. I think there have been some informative posts submitted, even though I disagree with 'em, it's important to know how people's minds appear to think.

I do not think I've got more to contribute to this thread and I am grateful to all posters. See you on the "What does anti-Zionism mean?" thread!

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 06:33 AM

PFR, according to Bing and Google, I never made that statement.
I would not take offence at being mistaken for a Jew or even if that was implied.
I do object to any suggestion that a contributor's ethnic origin is a relevant factor in such a debate.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 07:54 AM

The issue is, robomatic, that both Jim and I have argued that antisemitism, apart from attacking Jews because they are Jews, also includes putting Jewish people in harm's way. One major way of doing that is to smear the whole of the Jewish people with the outrages perpetrated by the Israeli regime. That's what happens when you try to extend the definition to include any criticism of Israel, which bobad and Keith are hell-bent on doing. Call it ironic, call it unintended consequences, but that's how it is. Unfortunately, unless they recognise this and pull back from it, it makes them no less antisemitic than the scumbags who express their hatred in the more explicitly-bigoted fashion. But they just aren't listening. If we can't agree that unfettered and unconditional criticism of what that regime does is allowed without our being branded antisemitic, then the definition is degraded and useless. And no, I don't have to criticise everybody else at the same time in the same breath for doing the same things. I can do that, and do do that, that at different times.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 08:27 AM

There is little point in pursuing this Steve and PFR
It is a fight against dishonest, antisemitic trolls who defend Israeli extremist right-wing extremism by blaming the Jews - plain and simple.
Mac ha had his answer one-hundredfold - from Keith, and from Bobad and his fellow trolls - all of whom seem to have left the former to wallow in his own swill.
I suggest it is best id we do the same - Robo is right - it has become a private fight.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 11:34 AM

PFR, according to Bing and Google, I never made that statement.

That's Bing Crosby and Barney Google, eh Professor?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 12:22 PM

Greg, no. I was thinking of the well known search engines, neither of which cold find that statement on Mudcat.

Jim, antisemitic trolls who defend Israeli extremist right-wing extremism by blaming the Jews

A made up accusation. No-one here has ever done that.
Your anti-Semitic racism on this thread is all too real.
You used the unproven misdeeds of a few individuals to smear all the Jews in Israel.

Steve,
That's what happens when you try to extend the definition to include any criticism of Israel, which bobad and Keith are hell-bent on doing.

We have not done that. We have merely pointed out that the definition you repudiate is in fact the most commonly used definition, not least by UK and US Police.
It explains why you deny racism even in acknowledged anti-semites such as Tonge, and self confessed anti-Semitism as from Shah.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 06:14 PM

You'd be way better off sticking with Bing and Barney, Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:25 AM

Steve asserted that "the pro-Israel lobby" controls our governments, especially the US government which he claims it has in a "cast iron grip.

Despite being asked repeatedly, he refuses to tell us how a mere lobby group achieves this.
His reticence is perhaps because his explanation would be anti-Semitic.
If it is not Steve, why will you not tell us?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:27 AM

No. You bore me. Clear off.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 07:39 AM

I am just asking you to justify your claim.
That is a reasonable request. Why make it if you can not justify it?

This one is of particular consequence because it does suggest an ant-semitic trope like the Jews controlling the banks and the media.

Just tell us what leverage they have on our governments Steve.
You claimed it.
I hope I am not right about anti-Semitism, but you must have a reason for keeping quiet.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 07:41 AM

Shhhh....

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 07:46 AM

Your silence condemns you.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 08:00 AM

Was there ever any doubt?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 09:35 AM

"Was there ever any doubt?"

I haven't been silent until now, you clown. And if my silence (alias not playing Keith's incredibly stupid games through sheer boredom) offends you, just wait till we list YOUR negative attributes. Shall we dwell on your sheer dishonesty for starters? Tell you what. No-one around here would ever condemn you for your silence. The longer the better, in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 09:53 AM

Are you really set on self-destruction Keith - haven't you humiliated yourself enough with your lying extremism and your ongoing
antisemitism?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ireland-What happened?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 12:57 PM
Jim Carroll
"When the news of the extermination of the Jews reached Britain one Tory Minister described it "the invention of whingeing Yids"."
Keith
"Who was it?
What is your source?
Silly songs don't count, or I could post "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr Hitler" as proof to the contrary!"

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 10:31 AM

I haven't been silent until now

So we've noticed.......when asked to justify your typically anti-Semitic trope your silence is deafening.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 10:49 AM

More antisemitic bile Bobad
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
Keith has mentioned "THE JEWS" well over a dozen times "in relation to "the actions of the state of Israel" - you are the only other person to do so.
Doesn't the definition you put up apply to you two?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 10:51 AM

when asked to justify your typically anti-Semitic trope your silence is deafening.

Well, Bubo, that's likely because there is no such thing as Steve's "typically anti-Semitic trope" except in what passes for your mind.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 11:06 AM

'S all right, Greg. He's seen the trendy word "trope" somewhere and now he can't help using it. Maybe he likes it because it rhymes with what he is. Why, last week I caught him copying and pasting someone else's tweet here without attribution and pretending it was his own work! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 11:19 AM

Steve's "typically anti-Semitic trope" except in what passes for your mind.

My mind is aligned with these 31 countries who have adopted the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism. The fact that you and Shaw don't accept it says it all about you.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 11:36 AM

"My mind is aligned with these 31 countries who have adopted the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism. "
Does that include this one Bobad?
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel. "
If so, how can criticising the Israeli regime possibly be Antisemitic?
Don't expect an answer top this, but your silence will be as revealing as anything you are likely to vomit.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 02:05 PM

Greg,
Well, Bubo, that's likely because there is no such thing as Steve's "typically anti-Semitic trope" except in what passes for your mind.

It is an easily verified fact that Steve claimed that "pro-Israel lobby" is able to control governments"

NY Times,
"Mr. Trump focused on the very issues and themes that obsess conspiratorial anti-Semites: They believe that there is an elite group of Jews who control the media, the government, and banking,"
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/14/us/politics/trump-comments-linked-to-antisemitism.html?_r=0

So there is such a thing Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 02:11 PM

Steve,
And if my silence (alias not playing Keith's incredibly stupid games through sheer boredom)

It is not a game but a reasonable request that you substantiate your claim.
If the request has become boring, it is only through repetition.
If only you had answered after the first time of asking, or the second, or third or fourth.....

Why did you always refuse and why continue to refuse?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 02:31 PM

"Why did you always refuse and why continue to refuse?"
Every single claim made against Israel has been substantiated - the burnt-to-death celebrations were entitled as such by the journalist who filmed it - an israeli
As you never substantiate your denials you have a nerve in demanding proof from others.
I take it from your silence that you are not prepared to explain your support for British antisemitism and we can take it as read that your repeatedly blaming "the Jews" (a least a dozen times - when nobody other than Bobad has) in as indication that you are prepared to wear your antisemitism with pride.   
"NO IT ONLY SHOWS GROUPS OF JEWS, NOT GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 02:44 PM

If I declared that bunches of Jews banded together to lobby governments and threaten politicians if they refused to support Israel, you'd have me bang to rights. But I have never said that, you tiresome, lying ratbag. In fact, I've told you MANY TIMES, cloth-ears, that pro-Israel lobby groups consist of Jews and people from many other backgrounds. Many non-Jewish Labour MPs are members of Labour Friends Of Israel. Many non-Jewish American big-businessmen are in AIPAC. Et bloody cetera. I have said here MANY TIMES that I condemn expressions such as Jewish lobby. It's pro-Israel lobby, Keith. I condemn people who attack "Israel" or "the Jews" and I condemn people out of hand who say they want to wipe Israel from the map. The target is the Israeli regime. I do not attack anyone else in connection with this and I never attack Jewish people because they are Jews. I will take on anybody, Jewish or not, when they say things I don't agree with. Now you really need to shut up about not answering you. You've had at least ten times more answering from me than you deserve. Go and sing a bloody song down your pub in Hertford and try to not choke on a pork scratching.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 02:46 PM

I doubt if you are going to respond to your consistently blaming the Jews for israeli crimes, other than first to claim you didn't, then to say sme historian told you it was true so it must be.
Doesn't matter, what's been said can't be unsaid.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:03 PM

Say goodnight, Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:32 PM

If anyone can stomach it, there's a website called stopbds.com that I reckon would make bobad and Keith feel really comfortable. Don't click on it unless you're feeling really calm.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 06:38 PM

Ya sure that isn't stupids.com?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 07:16 AM

Jim,
Every single claim made against Israel has been substantiated

Do not be silly Jim. Of course they have not.
But, this thread is not about "claims made against Israel"

Steve,
If I declared that bunches of Jews banded together to lobby governments and threaten politicians if they refused to support Israel, you'd have me bang to rights. But I have never said that, you tiresome, lying ratbag.

I do not lie, and I have not accused you of saying that.
I just keep asking you how a mere lobby group controls our governments as you claim?
Will you finally answer please?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 07:34 AM

"Do not be silly Jim. Of course they have not."
DO NOT BE SILLY KEITH - they have - by not being challenged by anybody but you - and you do nothing but deny them
"But, this thread is not about "claims made against Israel"
DO NOT BE SILLY KEITH
To even attempt to exclude Israel from a debate about antisemitism when its ministers have declared openly that to criticise Israeli behaviour is "antisemitic" is as mindlessly protective of a terrorist regime as it gets.
YOU'VE LONG OVERPLAYED YOUR "THREAD DRIFT" HAND.
Your persistent attempts to manipulate and restrict threads and move them into your antisemitic comfort zone is indicative that you have no other card to play.
"I do not lie"
DO NOT BE SILLY
You lie constantly and I can link you to some of them without moving from this thread
I can give you one immediately - how about "I do not lie"?
I take it that you are not going to explain the number of times you have accused "ordinary Jews" of Israeli crimes against humanity, despite your claiming to support the European definition of antisemitism?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 08:24 AM

"the burnt-to-death celebrations were entitled as such by the journalist who filmed it - an Israeli"

Those the 13 people who were arrested and charged with incitement to hatred by that Israeli Regime you keep banging on about?

How many "Palestinians" have been arrested and charged for inciting hatred of Israelis Jim? Hell Hamas in Gaza don't even take any action against those firing missiles at Israeli civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 08:48 AM

How many "Palestinians" have been arrested and charged for inciting hatred of Israelis Jim?

Hell, in the "West Bank" murderers of Jews are celebrated, feted, have streets and squares named after them and their families rewarded financially with money donated by Western countries to the PA for the welfare of the "impoverished" and "oppressed" "Palestinians". We don't see any condemnation of that from our resident Jew haters, do we now. The only thing we hear condemnation about is the financial aid given to Israel to help defend itself from those who would have it wiped off the map.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 09:32 AM

"Those the 13 people who were arrested and charged with incitement to hatred by that Israeli Regime you keep banging on about?"
Nope
The thirteen were arrested for murder - the roomful of people celebrating the death were ignored, as were those thousands chanting "no more school - no more Palestinian children" following the 2015 bloodbath.
"How many "Palestinians" have been arrested and charged for inciting hatred of Israelis Jim?"
What on earth has that got to do with anything- one display of bestiality does not excuse another.
Unlike Keith - and no doubt you, I don't hold these demonstrations of hatred against the Israeli people as a whole, or even the participants - my point in putting them up was to show the what Israel has become because of the barrage of hatred from the top - mainly politicians and priests.
I don't blame the ordinary German people for the Holocaust - only for allowing it to happen thanks to the same barrage of hate from the Nazis
ANOTHER
AND ANOTHER
MORE
FACEBOOK CENSORSHIP
PRETTY FAIR REASONS WHY PALESTINIANS ARE RETALIATING
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 09:59 AM

Jim,
I take it that you are not going to explain the number of times you have accused "ordinary Jews" of Israeli crimes against humanity,

I will.
Zero times, because it is bollocks, like everything else in that post.

I would like you to link to a lie of mine please.
Make it a real nasty one.
Good luck with that Jim. Breath not being held.

- the roomful of people celebrating the death were ignored,

If you mean your video, it showed a roomful of people celebrating a wedding.
In the distance is one figure holding what looks like a picture but we can not see the subject of the picture.
That is not evidence of anything Jim.

I don't hold these demonstrations of hatred against the Israeli people as a whole

But you did. Asked why you posted them you said to show what Israel is like.
It is not, because the vast majority of Jews would never behave in the way you describe.
It is racist to ascribe the misdeeds of a few individuals to a whole ethnic group, and that is what you did Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 10:10 AM

" Asked why you posted them you said to show what Israel is like.
It is not, because the vast majority of Jews would never behave in the way you describe."

Maybe it's also racist to "forget" that Israel is over a quarter non-Jewish.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 10:36 AM

Zero times, because it is bollocks, like everything else in that post.
Denial even though it's on this thread
"Anyway it was just ordinary Jews behaving despicably, if they were, so what was your point?"
"ORDINARY JEWS - NOT STATE OFFICIALS? "
Tell us again about not telling lies
"I would like you to link to a lie of mine please."
I've just given you one and have linked you to your statements about "brainwashed Irish Children" and supporting British Fascism - your having denied both
You even went on to justify your "brainwashed children" statement, having just denied it - it really doesn't come more stupid than that Keith.
You are now a serial porky-teller who seems not able to distinguish between truth and lies
"If you mean your video, it showed a roomful of people celebrating a wedding."
The Israeli cameraman who filmed it said differently -that's why he entitled it "Mob celebrating the death of a murdered child"
For Christ's sake Keith - if you are claiming he was lying, show us where he was.
Again
"CELEBRATING the DEATH of a CHILD - Shocking footage from Israeli Jewish wedding shows guests celebrating the death of a Palestinian baby burned alive in an arson attack
CELEBRATING the DEATH of a CHILD
"But you did. Asked why you posted them you said to show what Israel is like."
I said that was what was happening in Israel today - which it is - and I went on to say that it was the fault of those ministers and leaders who were spreading hate
Another example of your lying - how many do you want - you've just been given another four which you choose to ignore
YOU CHOSE TO TAKE IT FURTHER BY ANTISEMITICALLY BLAMING "ORDINARY JEWS "ORDINARY JEWS - NOT STATE OFFICIALS? "
Put up or piss off Keith - I want no further part in your mental deterioration.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 11:27 AM

Confirming that your lies are lies
A few of my statements
"I don't believe there are Jewish organisations that are pro-Israel - I believe there are some Jews who support what i happening in Israel and others who don't."
"They show what is happening in Israel today Keith - why do you think I put them up?"
"our sick argument here is typical of what is happening in Israel - war criminals blaming their crimes on The Jews."
"The statements by ministers that you have denied (not disproved), are incitement to hatred, plain and simple, and it is these which bring about behaviour like this - not the Jewish People"
"The statements by ministers that you have denied (not disproved), are incitement to hatred, plain and simple, and it is these which bring about behaviour like this - not the Jewish People - there are many, many more examples of such incitements and their outcome."
This incitement to hatred and killing is encouraged from the very top - "
"I am saying, as I said in the first place, that incitement to race hatred, as displayed by your Israeli Ministers, inevitably leads to extreme actions such as this."
In contrast - this is your statement
"Those videos you linked to did only show ordinary Jews, not government officials." Keith A of god knows where
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 12:43 PM

Jim, my quote,
"Anyway it was just ordinary Jews behaving despicably, if they were, so what was your point?"

was in reference to your videos. They depicted a few individuals possibly behaving badly, and you used them to vilify all Israelis.

your statements about "brainwashed Irish Children"

That statement was backed by quotes from historians, and was no lie.
Would you like those quotes repeated?

The Israeli cameraman who filmed it said differently -that's why he entitled it "Mob celebrating the death of a murdered child"
For Christ's sake Keith - if you are claiming he was lying, show us where he was.

Do you know who he/she was or anything about him/her?
No. All we know is what the video shows, and that is nothing.

I said that was what was happening in Israel today - which it is
Of course it is not.

"Those videos you linked to did only show ordinary Jews, not government officials."

That is true, and you posted them as an attack on all Jews, not just politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 01:29 PM

"That statement was backed by quotes from historians, and was no lie."
It wasnt true then - it isn'ty true - but beside the point Keith
YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T SAY IT AND YOU DID - YOU LIED
The fact that you could not give one single example of the hatred you claimed - just ans you have never produced a shred of evidence for your Labour antisemitism makes it the lie it is, and describing the children of a nation is profoundly racist - every bit as racist as describing all British male Pakistanis as implanted potential perverts -as you also did - without proof.
"Do you know who he/she was or anything about him/her?"
Do you have any proof it was a fake? - it was covered widely in the press - inccludibng ON THE ISRAELI MEDIA "quote WAS AIRED ON ISRAELI TV LAST NIGHT" unquotefor what it was - where is your proof Keith?
"Of course it is not"
You have been given over a dozen examples of what is happening - you refuse to respond to any of them - are they all lies - if so, who says so - where is your proof?
"That is true, and you posted them as an attack on all Jews, not just politicians."
You are lying - produce my blaming "the Jews" for anything - remember - my offer still stand - to all of you.
Can I make something clear Keith - I am not interested in convincing you or your followers of anything - I never have been.
I am interested in sinking any credibility you might ever have had without trace - you have helped me achieve that on this thread beyond my wildest dreams - for which, my deepest thanks for enabling me to execute this coup-de grace,
Finis.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 02:21 PM

Jim,
Do you have any proof it was a fake?

I did not say it was fake, I said it did not show what was claimed.
Why should we believe someone we know nothing about telling us what it does not show?

You are lying - produce my blaming "the Jews" for anything -

You produced videos of individual Jews allegedly behaving badly, and said it showed what Israel is like.
It does not because overwhelmingly Israelis do not behave like that.
It is racist to vilify a whole ethnic group for the supposed actions of a few individuals.

every bit as racist as describing all British male Pakistanis as implanted potential perverts -as you also did - without proof.

I did not, as I have explained so many times.

Re Irish schools, here is one historian,

" As a part of the school curriculum, the subject of history taught young learners a monolithic nationalist, anti-British and pro-Catholic history that was heavily dependent upon allegory and collective memory."

"The nationalist role ascribed to history in primary schools was not as pronounced in secondary schools. This was because the type of indoctrination involved was more effective with younger subjects,"

"Gaelic culture was proclaimed as not only relatively, but absolutely better than others. Nationalist history was not only pro-Irish but anti-British."
http://etudesirlandaises.revues.org/2119

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 03:36 PM

"I did not say it was fake, I said it did not show what was claimed."
No Keith - you said it did not say what the journalist filmed it said
He is a Hebreaw speaking Jew - you are not.#
If the press can accept is description so can you.
If you say he is lying -produce your proof - that is how the Mail picked it up from israeli television - or are they lying - or the New York Post - or all the other Journals who have headed it the same?
NEW YORK TIMES
You really are insane, aren't you?
"I did not, as I have explained so many times."
No Keith - you lied many times and never produced a single quote saying anything vaguely similar
Even if you7 had - it wouldn't make it anything less that extremely racist
Describeing an entire male population as being culturally implanted ro rape children is an obscene racist statement in anybody's book - obviously not yours
"" As a part of the school curriculum, the subject of history taught young learners a monolithic nationalist, anti-British and pro-Catholic history that was heavily dependent upon allegory and collective memory."
Pre- 1930s, just after independence, - as I pointed out in the rest of the quote.
You denied saying it now you are defending it - what kind of madman are you?
YOU REQUESTED AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR LYING - THIS WAS ONE OF THEM - YOU LIED

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 03:44 PM

Sorry Keith - my giggling got the better of me and I sent it off before I'd finished.
You have really taken this crass dishonesty as far as I'm prepared to go - I am not qualified to deal with the feeble-minded.
You are finished on this forum as far as I can see - you've self-destructed to an unimaginable degree.
Please do yourself a favour and stop - and take you hatred ogf the Jews, the Irish, the Muslims, the Travellers..... and every other race and culture you've ever maligned with you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 03:49 PM

Just came across this from you on the way down
"What about someone who talk about "pro-Israel lobby" plots, and those who support him Jim?"
What the **** do you think claiming that Jewish MPs refusing to describe the antisemitism is Keith?
That Gem of wisdom came from you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 07:32 AM

Jim,
No Keith - you said it(wedding video) did not say what the journalist filmed it said
I said it does not show what is claimed, and it does not.
It is clearly an amateur video. What journalist claimed to have fimed it? Name please.
He is a Hebreaw speaking Jew - you are not.#
So what. There is no speech.
If the press can accept is description so can you.
Which publication unequicocally endorsed what is shown? Link please. The link you just gave only says "appears to show."
I have never suggested it is fake or a lie, just that the video shows nothing clearly being done.
Note that Netanyahu and the GSS condemn it if genuine. It was racist of you to use the actions of a few individuals to smear a whole ethnic group.

Describeing an entire male population as being culturally implanted ro rape children is an obscene racist statement in anybody's book

Yes it would be. No-one has ever said such an outrageous thing.

You denied saying it now you are defending it - what kind of madman are you

Of course I said it, and justified it with quotes of Irish historians.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 09:01 AM

quotes of Irish historians.

Living or dead, Professor? Mainstream or not? Works available in regular bookstores or not? Eminent or no?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 10:18 AM

I'd finish here if I were you Greg - don't feed the Troll
The other raving, lying madman is far more interesting than this one
"Of course I said it, and justified it with quotes of Irish historians."
His lying is amply demonstrated by the fact that he carefully didn't link to his Irish historians because their references were to free the State education of eighty years ago - not what happens today
He denied saying it

Me
03 Nov 16 - 09:44 AM
"You describe the Irish as a hate-filled, brainwashed nation"

Keith - two postings later
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 12:13 PM
Jim, none of the personal stuff you accuse me of is true.

"Keith no
"Of course I said it, and justified it with quotes of Irish historians."
Lies
Lies about lying
A repetition of racism based on 80 year old evidence
Test this link: Irish Free State Education - 1922-1937
Someone like this needs help, not humouring
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 10:22 AM

SORRY - NAUSED UP THAT LAST LINK
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 11:04 AM

"I said it does not show what is claimed, and it does not."
Haaretz
Now will you feck off and stop lying?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 11:13 AM

Back to resorting to multi-coloured spittle-flecked rants are you Jom?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 11:24 AM

"Back to resorting to multi-coloured spittle-flecked rants are you Jim?"
Back from out of your Bunker are you Teribus - always on hand when your mad mate needs baling out - "too late, too late" - the maiden cried
"Jom?"
Always a sure sign of insecurity
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 11:45 AM

His lying is amply demonstrated by the fact that he carefully didn't link to his Irish historians because their references were to free the State education of eighty years ago - not what happens today

That is not true Jim. The quotes and link I gave YESTERDAY (09 Nov 16 - 02:21 PM ) were to "Politics, Policy and History: History Teaching in Irish Secondary Schools 1922-1970"
All my quotes on this were of recent times.

"You describe the Irish as a hate-filled, brainwashed nation"

I have never described the Irish like that. I have visited Ireland many times and have always found them a warm and wecoming people.

"I said it does not show what is claimed, and it does not."

It is not clear from the video what is going on, but I can not and never have denied that it could be as described by people who were not there.
My point was that you were racist to use the behaviour of a few individuals to smear a whole ethnic group.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 12:09 PM

For fucks sake, pack it in
Yyour statements were racist - the references you gave were an account of Free State Education
"Politics, Policy and History: History Teaching in Irish Secondary Schools 1922-1970""
That's what I said - the section on Free State Education.
You were defeated on this last time - you couldn't produce one example of hate you claim, tyou lied, to toot phrases out of context and you have lied again by denying you ever said such a thing "Jim, none of the personal stuff you accuse me of is true."
No blustering bulying by your equally dishonest and reactionary mate is going to lift you out of this one - you leid and y were caught lying.
"It is not clear from the video what is going on, "
Thern Haaretz got it wrong and Netanyahu apologised for nothing
Ja-sus Christ
Feckin mad as a Hatter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 12:25 PM

A final nail in your editing coffin.
This is the bit in full you that you carefully edited to attempt to paint Irish children as brainwashed morons

The chief function of Irish educational policy was to conserve and develop Irish nationality. Thus, the schools of the Irish Free State were charged with the task of building Irish nationality. They were the chief mechanism in a continuing cultural revolution. The idea of a Gaelic Ireland was synonymous with independent Ireland. The Irish language was central to Irish national identity. The primary function of the schools was to recreate a Gaelic. Irish speaking nation. The education system aimed to develop awareness and appreciation of what made the Irish a unique and great race. This distinctive and peerless heritage was the foundation for independence. The function of history was to play a supporting role to Irish by strengthening the national fibre and illustrating the distinctiveness and continuity of the Irish nation. History was used to demonstrate the chargcd with the task of building Irish nationality. They were the chief mechanism in a continuing cultural revolution. The idea of a Gaelic Ireland was synonymous with independent Ireland. The Irish language was central to Irish national identity. The primary function of the schools was to recreate a Gaelic, Irish speaking nation. The education system aimed to develop awareness and appreciation of what made the Irish a unique and great race. This distinctive and peerless heritage was the foundation for independence. The function of history was to play a supporting role to Irish by strengthening the national fibre and illustrating the distinctiveness and continuity of the Irish nation. History was used to demonstrate the importance of the Irish language in preserving national consciousness and continuity, and thus legitimise its restoration as a spoken language.
The nationalist role ascribed to history in primary schools was not as pronounced in secondary schools. This was because the type of indoctrination involved was more effective with younger subjects…….
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 01:32 PM

What kind of scumbag would deliberately edit a piece of history to prove children brainwashed morons?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:49 PM

Jim,
Yyour statements were racist - the references you gave were an account of Free State Education
"Politics, Policy and History: History Teaching in Irish Secondary Schools 1922-1970""
That's what I said - the section on Free State Education.

Not true again Jim.
"The tendency, apparent in the syllabi, to study the history of Ireland in isolation was still an issue in the 1970s, even as the project of European unity gathered pace and Ireland joined the EEC in 1973. Policy makers intended history to reflect a romantic but unhistorical ideal of Ireland's Gaelic past held by many Irish revolutionaries."

"It is not clear from the video what is going on, "
Thern Haaretz got it wrong and Netanyahu apologised for nothing

I am not and never have said that it is not true.
Only that you can't see much in the video.
My point was that you were racist to smear a whole ethnic group for the behaviour of a few individuals.

Feckin mad as a Hatter
Jim Carroll

You are too hard on yourself Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:52 PM

A final nail in your editing coffin.
This is the bit in full you that you carefully edited to attempt to paint Irish children as brainwashed morons

The chief function of Irish educational policy was to conserve and develop Irish nationality. Thus, the schools of the Irish Free State were charged with the task of building Irish nationality.

Yes Jim, but they were still at it beyond 1973.
See the quote in my last post.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:02 PM

"Yes Jim, but they were still at it beyond 1973."
You have the full quote Keith - unlike yours totally unedited.
At no time have you ever attempted to provide evidence of how this - not ever
It is totally of your own invention
And you still haven't responded to the fact that you denied this.
You invented and you lied - what king of scumbag behaves like this to schoolchildren?
And you claim British "all male Pakistanis" are perverts!!
You could take classes in perversion against children
A bridge too far, even for you
You make me sick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:18 PM

You have the full quote Keith - unlike yours totally unedited.

Your quote is relevant to the days of the Free State, but the author goes on to describe the same state of affairs extending beyond 1973.
My quote is also unedited.

And you still haven't responded to the fact that you denied this.

Why would I deny it? I expect you accused me of something ridiculous based on it which I did deny.

And you claim British "all male Pakistanis" are perverts!!

I would never claim such a ridiculous thing, and never have.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 06:38 AM

So Steve will not tell us how the "pro-Israel lobby" is able to control our governments.
His claim must have been just another of his whims based on nothing, or he must be ashamed to lay out his reasoning.

Jim refuses to acknowledge that the overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews are ordinary, decent folk and that it is racist to condemn a whole ethnic group for the actions of a few individuals, as he did.

Here is a short article suggesting how the new anti-Semitism came about.
http://europe.newsweek.com/elliott-abrams-anti-zionism-anti-semitism-our-time-518407

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 06:55 AM

I'll tell my friends but I won't tell you, so just shut up. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 07:30 AM

Don't give this antisemitic, racist, dishonest moron the oxygen of publicity Steve
He's already blown was passed for his brains out, largely without our help.
He will reopen this pathetic thread as long as we respond
Let him rest in peace.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 07:34 AM

Deo gratias.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 08:57 AM

I post the short article that Keith linked to because it accurately describes the all too familiar method and motivation of some posters to this and other Israel hate threads: Not only does he explain why Israel's enemies choose the language of human rights, but he also reminds us that the central motivation of those critics is, quite simply, anti-Semitism.




Given that Israel is the freest nation in the Middle East and the only stable democracy there, the steady assault on Israel by human rights groups and by enemies of Israel using human rights language has always been particularly reprehensible.

But it has also been hard to understand: Why attack Israel precisely where its record is in fact exemplary by any international standard?

Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks has explained it, concisely. Speaking to the European Parliament in September, in a presentation titled "The Mutating Virus: Understanding Anti-Semitism," Sacks said this:

    Throughout history, when people have sought to justify anti-Semitism, they have done so by recourse to the highest source of authority available within the culture. In the Middle Ages, it was religion. So we had religious anti-Judaism.

    In post-Enlightenment Europe, it was science. So we had the twin foundations of Nazi ideology, Social Darwinism and the so-called Scientific Study of Race.

    Today, the highest source of authority worldwide is human rights. That is why Israel—the only fully functioning democracy in the Middle East, with a free press and independent judiciary—is regularly accused of the five cardinal sins against human rights: racism, apartheid, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing and attempted genocide.

Sacks's explanation is in fact doubly powerful. Not only does he explain why Israel's enemies choose the language of human rights, but he also reminds us that the central motivation of those critics is, quite simply, anti-Semitism. As he explained:

    Anti-Semitism means denying the right of Jews to exist collectively as Jews with the same rights as everyone else. It takes different forms in different ages. In the Middle Ages, Jews were hated because of their religion. In the 19th and early 20th century, they were hated because of their race.

    Today, they are hated because of their nation-state, the state of Israel. It takes different forms, but it remains the same thing: the view that Jews have no right to exist as free and equal human beings.

His conclusion is stark:

    It was Jews, not Israelis, who were murdered in terrorist attacks in Toulouse, Paris, Brussels and Copenhagen. Anti-Zionism is the anti-Semitism of our time.

Elliott Abrams is senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies at the Council on Foreign Relations.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 02:36 PM

Steve,
I'll tell my friends but I won't tell you, so just shut up.

You made your claim here, but you will not justify it here.
There can only be two reasons.
Either your claim was just another of your whims based on nothing,
or you are ashamed to lay out your reasoning here in public.
Only to your like minded friends.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 03:19 PM

Israeli Lobbies


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-truth-about-the-uks-powerful-jewish-lobbies-9702262.html
Britain

AMERICA

EUROPE

CANADA

AUSTRALIA


http://www.globalresearch.ca/whos-afraid-of-the-israel-lobby/5436712
General
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/introlobby.html
America

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-truth-about-the-uks-powerful-jewish-lobbies-9702262.html
Britain

http://dvcronin.blogspot.ie/2010/11/how-israel-lobby-dictates-eu-policy.html
Europe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yves_Engler
Canada

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.586788
Australia

http://www.globalresearch.ca/whos-afraid-of-the-israel-lobby/5436712
General



http://dvcronin.blogspot.ie/2010/11/how-israel-lobby-dictates-eu-policy.html
Europe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yves_Engler
Canada

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.586788
Australia

http://www.globalresearch.ca/whos-afraid-of-the-israel-lobby/5436712
General

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 08:32 PM

Ah yes. The good Chief Rabbi. As always, Jonathan, he of soft voice and Thought For The Day, is obsessed with being defensive about Israel (fair dos - that's his job) but he has nothing to say about the plight of the Palestinians both in Israel and in Gaza. Poor old Jonathan doesn't know Jack shit about science either, does he? Rabbis and archbishops should stick to religion. They get the oxygen of publicity, totally undeserved, because of their eminence in their respective faiths. I think I'd rather listen to the England cricket captain, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 04:03 AM

Whoops
CANADA'S SLAVISH SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 05:24 PM

(fair dos - that's his job)

No. He is a rabbi, not a political activist (unlike Yves Engler who Jim just linked too. Whoops.)

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 05:50 PM

Then why is he commenting on politics one-sidedly from his position of authority, a position that gives him access to publicity for his opinions?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 06:43 PM

"Whoops"
Are you really challenging all those links?
Unbelievable
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 06:45 PM

After every 'Friends of Israel' link you have put up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 07:39 PM

The Non-political Jonathan Sachs
"But his public image belies a more complex character, often seen as too much under the thumb of the Orthodox right. Perhaps his least attractive side was revealed in his refusal to attend the funeral of the widely popular Rabbi Hugo Gryn. Unwilling to dignify a Reform event with his presence, he agreed to attend a memorial service in recognition of his fellow Radio 4-er "not as a Reform rabbi but as a survivor of the Holocaust". Being a member of the Reform movement, Rabbi Gryn was a part of a "false grouping" and one of "those who destroy the faith", Lord Sacks wrote in subsequently leaked private correspondence. Reform rabbis reacted angrily: "It seems that, constantly, the chief rabbinate is forced into two conversations, embodying two sets of language and two messages tailored to the respective recipients."

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 08:15 PM

More non-politics of Jonothhan Sacks
ON BDS
ON GAZA
ON GAZA AGAIN
"ANTI - ZIONISTS ARE ANTI SEMITES"
DEHUMANISING PALESTINIANS
And
THE ISRAELI LOBBY and the CANADIAN ELECTIONS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 09:25 AM

Well, HERE'S what anti-semitism means! This appointment:

Groups Decry Trump's Newly Appointed Chief Strategist

The Anti-Defamation League also spoke out against Bannon."It is a sad day when a man who presided over the premier website of the 'alt-right' — a loose-knit group of white nationalists and unabashed anti-Semites and racists — is slated to be a senior staff member in the 'people's house,'" ADL head Jonathan Greenblatt said in a statement.

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-s-pick-steve-bannon-chief-strategist-sparks-backlash-n683386

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 03:30 PM

Like all of us he has views, but he is Rabbi not a political activist like, say, Yves Engler.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 04:52 PM

What about Trump and his anti-semitic pals, Professor??

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 07:27 PM

How long did you live in Palstine?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 08:14 PM

"Like all of us he has views, but he is Rabbi not a political activist like, say, Yves Engler."
Sacks is politically motivated - he is "in the hands of the Zionist Right"
He was a politico - the picture you paint of him is a total distortion - his nickname was http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/.premium-1.544593 - just like Tony Blair.
You have based your entire attack on the Labour Party o the claims of "political activists" - 'Friends of Israel' and right wing Labour Party Members in particular - now you are saying that the word of political activists is unacceptable - what right-wing ego trip are you on Keith - who do you think yo are to claim we can only rely on the word of your political activists?
It deoesn't matter anyway - your damand to know what influence the Israeli Lobby has on world politics ahs been well and truely answered - the only response you cam make is silence
Another reply to ignore - theis time by a former CIA officer and anti-terrorist expert.
NEARLY EVERY WESTERN COUNTRY HAS an ISRAELI LOBBY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 16 - 08:16 PM

DUTCH DOCUMENTARY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 10:17 AM

Sacks is politically motivated - he is "in the hands of the Zionist Right"

Really? How do you know this?

Of course Labour Party members are "political activists" Jim, and all the claims about Labour anti Semitism came from members.


Sadiq Khan is not in Friends of Israel, and if he were his views would still be valid.
The entire NEC are not all Right Wing Friends of Israel either.

Labour is by definition of the Left.

And yes, all decent democracies have an Israel lobby, and they are all on warm and friendly terms with Israel, as they would not be to a state guilty of all the shit you claim!

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 10:34 AM

"Really? How do you know this?"
You've just been given a bundle of information on him - "made up Carroll shit" I suppose?
Then why question information on the activities of the Israeli Lobby in canada because it came from "an activist"?
"and if he were his views would still be valid."
Not again Keith - no views are valid unless they come with evidence ande examples - you and they have provided none.
You claimed it was because the Jewish politicians have suppressed it for the sake of the party - why is a reason why you are an antisemite.
When Steve mentioned the Lobbies you immediately said "so it was a conspiracy of Jews"
Your obsessive habit of linking "Jews" to Israeli crimes is sick, sick, sick, and while you continue you will have once more answered Mac's question - Antisemitism is what you deal in.
You've been given a whole bundle of information on how they influence the policies of those countries adversely - which is what you asked for.
Piss off Keith - you have shit in your own nest one hundred times over, which will do nicely for me.
Byee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 10:57 AM

Jim, you have produced nothing that says Sachs is "in the hands of the Zionist Right."

Like most people, he is sympathetic to Israel.

Not again Keith - no views are valid unless they come with evidence ande examples - you and they have provided none.

There was enough evidence to convince and appal the "entire NEC."
That is who the complaints were made to.
It was dealt with as an internal matter.

Your obsessive habit of linking "Jews" to Israeli crimes is sick, sick, sick,

I have never done that, but you refuse to acknowledge that the majority of Jews in Israel are ordinary, decent people. That is racist.
You also attempted to use the behaviour of a few individuals to stigmatise all Israeli Jews. That too is racist.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 11:08 AM

Piss off Keith - you are done here
No amount of repetition of old arguments are going to change that - unless you can inven another 'Jewish Plot' maybe
Read the information on Sacks fully rather with your usual selectivity
You really are the extremest limit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 11:18 AM

Jim, you lose.

Greg,
What about Trump and his anti-semitic pals, Professor??

I deplore anti-Semitism in all its forms Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 12:33 PM

ISRAELI WAR CRIMES
MORE
BREAKING THE SILENCE

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 12:39 PM

HOW THE ISRAELI LOBBY WORKS
SETTLEMENTS ARE WAR CRIMES - official
HELP!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 02:57 PM

Haaretz

Universal law on crimes against humanity

haaretz
Confined to base
If the army in Israel is above the law, then all of us should be ashamed to show our faces in the world. But if the state demands of its army officers that they obey the law then it should supply the required legal protection both at home and abroad
By Anshel Pfeffer

For five years now, Israeli governments have been trying to change the situation through pressure on 10 Downing Street. Meanwhile, senior officers no longer go for a year's study or participate in seminars and study programs at the prestigious strategic research institutes in Britain. Even the previous IDF spokesman, Avi Benayahu, went to lecture in London under an assumed name.
The Israeli approach is mistaken from the start. The principle of universal jurisdiction, which makes it possible to prosecute people suspected of crimes against humanity in any place in the world, is not necessarily immoral, and the legal claims in its favor are not much different from those that justified legislating the law against bringing Nazi criminals to justice. In any case, Israel does not have the right to intervene in the affairs of another sovereign state and to demand that it change its laws.
The problem with the universal jurisdiction laws in Britain lies with the way in which they enable opponents of Israel to draw public and media attention and to pursue IDF officers, in particular, among all the representatives of the world's nations that visit London. But the mockery of British law is a British problem. Israel is not supposed to fight against it through diplomatic pressure but rather by legal means.
The Military Advocate General, Maj. Gen. Avichai Mandelblit, has repeatedly said that the IDF knows how to examine itself and, when necessary, to put on trial and punish soldiers and officers that have committed crimes. And in all instances, the military judicial system is subordinate in every respect and issue to the Supreme Court, and every person – Israeli or foreigner – can petition the High Court of Justice against the army.
If this is the case, and on the face of it the latest remarks by Judge Richard Goldstone uphold this, there is no need to fear universal jurisdiction which is customary only against those whose countries do not investigate their deeds or bring them to trial.
What would go on trial in London, together with an IDF officer who commanded a controversial operation, would be the entire Israeli judicial system. Instead of the Foreign Ministry advising an officer to remain in Israel as if he has something to hide, the Israeli embassy must find itself a competent attorney who at any time could go out and demand the immediate cancelation of an arrest warrant against an officer or senior Israeli official. He will use just one argument: Anyone who feels that the IDF had committed a crime toward him has the right to turn to the Supreme Court in Jerusalem. Thanks to Israeli human rights organizations such as B'Tselem and Yesh Din, there are a great many precedents of this kind.
If the army in Israel is above the law, then all of us should be ashamed to show our faces in the world. But if indeed the state demands of its army officers that they obey the laws of the land in carrying out their duty – and if they fail to do so, brings them to trial – then the state is also obliged to supply its officers with the required legal protection when they are abroad as well, and not to confine them to base.

The decision to leave the prime minister's military aide, Maj. Gen. Yohanan Locker, at home last week – to avoid the risk that the officer might be arrested during Benjamin Netanyahu's visit to London – was the climax of a prolonged national disgrace. Locker served as deputy commander of the Air Force during Operation Cast Lead and thus risked facing prosecution in Britain over allegations of war crimes. Like underground fighters during the Mandate, officers of the Israel Defense Forces have to act like escaped criminals for fear of the British.
David Cameron is the third British prime minister who has promised Israeli leaders he will bring about a change in the law that makes it possible for courts in the United Kingdom to issue arrest warrants against senior Israeli figures on suspicion of war crimes. But like his predecessors, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, Cameron is wary of a confrontation with the backbenchers in Parliament over an unpopular issue such as assisting Israeli officers to avoid taking responsibility for their conduct toward the Palestinian people.
For five years now, Israeli governments have been trying to change the situation through pressure on 10 Downing Street. Meanwhile, senior officers no longer go for a year's study or participate in seminars and study programs at the prestigious strategic research institutes in Britain. Even the previous IDF spokesman, Avi Benayahu, went to lecture in London under an assumed name.
The Israeli approach is mistaken from the start. The principle of universal jurisdiction, which makes it possible to prosecute people suspected of crimes against humanity in any place in the world, is not necessarily immoral, and the legal claims in its favor are not much different from those that justified legislating the law against bringing Nazi criminals to justice. In any case, Israel does not have the right to intervene in the affairs of another sovereign state and to demand that it change its laws.
The problem with the universal jurisdiction laws in Britain lies with the way in which they enable opponents of Israel to draw public and media attention and to pursue IDF officers, in particular, among all the representatives of the world's nations that visit London. But the mockery of British law is a British problem. Israel is not supposed to fight against it through diplomatic pressure but rather by legal means.
The Military Advocate General, Maj. Gen. Avichai Mandelblit, has repeatedly said that the IDF knows how to examine itself and, when necessary, to put on trial and punish soldiers and officers that have committed crimes. And in all instances, the military judicial system is subordinate in every respect and issue to the Supreme Court, and every person – Israeli or foreigner – can petition the High Court of Justice against the army.
If this is the case, and on the face of it the latest remarks by Judge Richard Goldstone uphold this, there is no need to fear universal jurisdiction which is customary only against those whose countries do not investigate their deeds or bring them to trial.
What would go on trial in London, together with an IDF officer who commanded a controversial operation, would be the entire Israeli judicial system. Instead of the Foreign Ministry advising an officer to remain in Israel as if he has something to hide, the Israeli embassy must find itself a competent attorney who at any time could go out and demand the immediate cancelation of an arrest warrant against an officer or senior Israeli official. He will use just one argument: Anyone who feels that the IDF had committed a crime toward him has the right to turn to the Supreme Court in Jerusalem. Thanks to Israeli human rights organizations such as B'Tselem and Yesh Din, there are a great many precedents of this kind.
If the army in Israel is above the law, then all of us should be ashamed to show our faces in the world. But if indeed the state demands of its army officers that they obey the laws of the land in carrying out their duty – and if they fail to do so, brings them to trial – then the state is also obliged to supply its officers with the required legal protection when they are abroad as well, and not to confine them to base.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 10:40 AM

Jim, you are obsessed.
This thread is not about Israel!
Start a thread and we will see if you can make a case this time.

Meanwhile, this thread is about anti-Semitism, which you have indulged in to provide us with prime examples.

You refuse to acknowledge that the majority of Jews in Israel are ordinary, decent people. That is racist.
You also attempted to use the behaviour of a few individuals to stigmatise all Israeli Jews. That too is racist.

Steve has given us the classic anti-Semitic trope of the Jews controlling our governments, except that he substituted "pro-Israel lobby" for Jews, and he refuses to say how they do it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 10:52 AM

to say how they do it.

Magic, Professor. Jewish Magic.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 10:56 AM

"This thread is not about Israel!"
Israel is using antisemitism as a defence against war crimes and human rights abuses
You are quite happy to defend Israel here until you run into trouble - then out comes your censor's pencil
Nobody is attacking the majority of the people - the problem is the terrorist leadership you are defending
As long as you do I will provide my examples.
Learn your lesson - if you can't stand the heat....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 11:10 AM

Nobody is attacking the majority of the people - the problem is the terrorist leadership you are defending

Your videos did not portray the leadership.

You are quite happy to defend Israel here until you run into trouble

No. I have objected all along to your attempts to hijack this thread.

the problem is the terrorist leadership you are defending

If you mean Israel's democratically elected government, I have not defended them.
I do sometimes put Israel's side of the story. Do you object to that?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:12 PM

You really are a self-harmer.
PERSECUTION and the REALITY of TODAY'S ANTISEMITISM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:31 PM

ZIONISM, RACISM and the PALESTINIAN PEOPLE

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:59 PM

+Keith, what is the value of this discussion other than supplying inertia to Jim's preferences.

Who is the Jew hater here and why. Or is this merely an historic retrospective.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 01:06 PM

"Who is the Jew hater here and why"
"Those videos you linked to did only show ordinary Jews, not government officials."
Question answered
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 02:46 PM

The Oxford dictionary international word of the year for 2016 is "post-truth" defined by the dictionary as "relating to or denoting circumstances in which objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief."

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 02:54 PM

How do they define PresentBubo?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 03:01 PM

I get the feeling this thread is hate speech and angry one upmanship.

Or is it tradition for you guys?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 03:22 PM

"I get the feeling this thread is hate speech and angry one upmanship."
Then respond to the wide range of statements from Jews and non-Jews alike
You supported Keith's 'Jewish pact of silence' claim about Jewish politicians
How do you reconcile that with your claimed support for the Jewish People
If I had made such a statement you could have claimed my offer of a donation to your charity - you haven't.
If you could have found one example of my attacking the Jewish People you could have claimed my offer of a donation to your charity - you haven't.
This has nothing to do with "hate speech" unless you consider my rage at how Israeli administrations have systematically destroyed 'the dream of a Jewish State.
If you had any interest in the Jewish People as a whole you would have objected to Keith's 'Jewish plot' theory regarding British Labour politicians - you refused to comment.
This is about humanitarian left versus extremist right in realtion to what is happening in the Middle East.
The behaviour of you and Keith in regard to this matter is confirmation of your supporting the Israeli extreme right rather than Jewish people.
The fact that you automatically accuse anybody criticising the political stance of the Israeli Government makes you antisemitic by the definition you put up -
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
That is exactly what you are doing by claiming criticism of Israeli policy is antisemitic.
REPORT BY ANTISEMITIC AMNESTY
The fact that you will now ignore everything contained here is further evidence of your disinterest in the well-being off the Jewish people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 03:30 PM

Sorry Donuel
Mistook your posting for Bobads - but feel free to respond to any of the points made if you wish to accuse me of antisemitism or one upmanship.
I grew up in a household that was deeply involved with Jews in their fight against the antisemitic demonstrations of the thirties.
I was involved with families of Holocaust survivors in the North of England, one of whom was the first to use the term "a bunch of fascist" to describe the Israeli leadership.
I have read some of your postings with admiration over the last week - please don't spoil it by joining in with this bunch of antisemitic cowards.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 06:48 AM

Jim,
If you could have found one example of my attacking the Jewish People

You posted videos of a few Jews supposedly behaving badly, and said that they showed what Israel is like.
It is not, because most Jews are decent people who would never behave like that and would, and did, denounce such behaviour.

Donuel,
Keith, what is the value of this discussion

What is the value of any discussion?
I engage in it to challenge views I disagree with, and in this case to expose bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 11:26 AM

Israel's Alarming Settlement Bill
NOV. 17, 2016

Right-wing Israeli politicians see Donald Trump's election as helpful toward their goal of burying the prospect of a Palestinian state. On Wednesday, Israeli lawmakers gave preliminary approval to a bill that would retroactively legalize settlements built on private Palestinian land in the West Bank. The bill is intended to prevent the court-ordered demolition of an illegal outpost by Dec. 25.

Education Minister Naftali Bennett, who heads the Jewish Home party, the most ardent supporter of settlements, proclaimed that "the era of the Palestinian state is over."

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu opposes the bill and Attorney General Avichai Mandelblit has said it violates international law.

So I guess that Netanyahu and Mandelblit have shown themselves as anti-semites? Or are they just self-hating Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 12:15 PM

"Those videos you linked to did only show ordinary Jews, not government officials."
"and said that they showed what Israel is like."
That is what is happening in Israel today - and a lot more - where was it happening; Outer Mongolia?
ISRAEL'S CRIMES AGAINST PALESTINIANS
"What is the value of any discussion?"
No discussion - just examples and denials
And it will continue until you stop
CRIMES AGAINST the PALESTINIANS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 12:32 PM

SETTLER VIOLENCE
SETTLER VIOLENCE - LACK of ACCOUNTABILITY
UPDATE on SETTLER VIOLENCE U.N.

More to come, if you want
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 12:41 PM

CRIMINALISING CRITICISM of ISRAEL in CANADA
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 01:38 PM

ISRAELI SOLDIERS' TESTIMONIES of WAR CRIMINALITY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 05:23 PM

Sick, obsessed, little man.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 05:58 PM

So, Bubo - what about 17 Nov 16 - 11:26 AM ??

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 07:21 PM

From The Times of Israel:

At the opening to the Anti-Defamation League's conference on anti-Semitism, the organization's national director said anti-Jewish hatred in America is worse than at any point since the 1930s.

Jonathan Greenblatt, speaking Thursday at the opening of the ADL's "Never Is Now" summit in New York, said currents on both the far-right and far-left have led to anti-Semitism's resurgence. He mentioned the platform of the Movement for Black Lives published this year that accused Israel of genocide.

Greenblatt also detailed the anti-Semitic attacks that rose during the 2016 presidential campaign, mentioning the appointment of Stephen Bannon as the chief strategist to President-elect Donald Trump. Bannon was the chairman of Breitbart News, a website Bannon called the "platform for the alt-right," a loose movement of the far-right whose followers traffic variously in white nationalism, anti-immigration sentiment, anti-Semitism and a disdain for "political correctness."

"The American Jewish community, our community, has not seen this level of anti-Semitism in mainstream political and public discourse since the 1930s," Greenblatt said. "Sadly, it is only being matched with escalating levels of hate toward other minorities today."

Addressing reports that Trump's transition team is considering creating a registry of Muslims in the United States, Greenblatt pledged that he would sign up as a Muslim. He referred to the apocryphal story about the king of Denmark promising to wear a yellow star if it would be required of the Scandinavian country's Jews.

"As Jews, we know what it means to be registered, or targeted, held out as different from our fellow citizens," Greenblatt said. "We as Jews know the right and just response. I pledge to you right here and now, because I'm committed to the fight against anti-Semitism, if one day American Muslims will be forced to register their identity, that is the day this proud Jew will register as a Muslim."

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 05:16 AM

The rise in Antisemitism is due entirely to the Israeli tactic of linking their own activities to The Jewish People and describing criticism of its policies as "Antisemitic"
Antisemitism is an exclusively right-wing phenomenon, fought against by the left - The left movement was founded with the help of Jews fleeing persecution, Jews played a major part in The Spanish Civil War and other antifascist groups, alongside Labour Party members and Communists.
The present rise in fascism is due to the sharp swing to the right taken by some countries, particularly Britain and America, who have fueled that swing on xenophobia and racism.
There is a chance that next year will see a France headed by a fascist party led by one of the leading antisemitic families in Europe - the LePens.
One of the major problems with recognising antisemitism today is that Israel's using it as a defence of their murderous activities has made the term virtually meaningless.
"Sick, obsessed, little man."
Cowardly, antisemitic Troll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 07:35 AM

Guardian Tuesday
"Tom Watson, Labour's deputy leader, is in Israel in an effort to build bridges after allegations of antisemitism within the party.

He and a group of MPs, including the former chief whip Rosie Winterton, have accepted an invitation from Israel's Labor party. It follows Jeremy Corbyn's decision to turn down a similar invitation in April because of "diary commitments".

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/15/tom-watson-labour-deputy-visits-israel-antisemitism-jeremy-corbyn-invitation

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 08:45 AM

,font size=+2>after allegations of antisemitism within the party.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 08:47 AM

What does 'anti-semitism' mean?

Here you have a prime example:

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 01:38 PM

ISRAELI SOLDIERS' TESTIMONIES of WAR CRIMINALITY
Jim Carroll

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Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 12:41 PM

CRIMINALISING CRITICISM of ISRAEL in CANADA
Jim Carroll

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Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 12:32 PM

SETTLER VIOLENCE
SETTLER VIOLENCE - LACK of ACCOUNTABILITY
UPDATE on SETTLER VIOLENCE U.N.

More to come, if you want
Jim Carroll

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Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 12:15 PM

"Those videos you linked to did only show ordinary Jews, not government officials."
"and said that they showed what Israel is like."
That is what is happening in Israel today - and a lot more - where was it happening; Outer Mongolia?
ISRAEL'S CRIMES AGAINST PALESTINIANS
"What is the value of any discussion?"
No discussion - just examples and denials
And it will continue until you stop
CRIMES AGAINST the PALESTINIANS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 08:49 AM

Tom Watson is "Vice Chair of Trade Union Friends of Israel" - a part of The Pro-Israeli Lobby
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 02:17 PM

So what Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 16 - 02:29 PM

"So what Jim?"
The way things are in Israel Keith, they might as well be "Friends of Trump" - and just as trustworthy.
If there was the slightest chance of his going to Israel to get the regime to explain its behaviour it would be worth supporting.
Instaead, as he is an active part of the propaganda machine, I have no doubt he is going there to discuss the next move to prevent DBS
He is an active supporter of all those things you have been given and refuse to respond to.
"Founded in 1957, Labour Friends of Israel is a group within the Labour Party which in 2003 described itself as a "lobby group working within the Labour Party to promote the State of Israel".[13] On its present website it describes itself as seeking "to promote a strong bilateral relationship between Britain and Israel."[14] It organizes visits British politicians to visit Israel and meet with Israeli politicians and advocates on Israel's behalf among Labour Party members.[15] Both Labour Party Prime Ministers Tony Blair (1997–2007) and Gordon Brown (2007-2010) have been members of Labour Friends of Israel,[16][17] and the former leader of the Labour Party (Ed Miliband) has described himself as a "friend of Israel".[18]
Wiki
Part of the machine - note - Labor FoI involvement is long after the atrocities surfaced - yonks after the sabra Shatila massacre
At no time have they ever questioned the regime on their war crimes
Finished here Keith - you've done yourself enough damage
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 04:17 AM

Jim, you post ad nauseam propaganda and blatant lies from enemies of Israel, but tell us we must dismiss anything from anyone who is in any way sympathetic to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 06:37 PM

"Israel, Zionism and Jewish Supremacist control of America are the primary causes of terrorism, instability and conflict in the world today. All other theories are merely diversions away from this ultimate truth."

    - KKK Grand Wizard, David Duke


Sound familiar?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 07:29 PM

Nah, he's completely wrong. I know he is cos Mother Teresa told me. It's not Israel. It's abortion.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 07:38 PM

Nah, it's AIPAC, the Zionists, the regime, the Israeli government, Netanyahu etc., right Shaw......nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 09:12 PM

Not biting, sorry. And I wouldn't let people like you get within ten yards of nudging me.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 04:12 AM

"Sound familiar?"
Yup - that the message from the Trump crowd FULLY SUPPORTED by the Israeli establishment.
ISRAEL EMBRACES TRUMP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 16 - 10:16 AM

KKK Grand Wizard, David Duke

You mean Trump's buddy Dave? HEIL TRUMP!!

Hey Bubo, I thought you LIKED Trump?