Criticism at singarounds

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 09:57 AM

Trouble is Dave they do not take any notice and keep on singing the same old S H 1 T and do not move on. The "request" being why not keep quiet

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,aCORN4
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 09:53 AM

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Acorn4
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 09:09 AM

"How do you deal with a singer who sings the same old two or three songs over and over again everywhere he goes, and has done so for years, almost since the club was founded in fact?"

You usually find they've "had a request".

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Phil E
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 07:32 AM

Ban guitars! I used to sing my own songs unaccompanied - having written them that way - but unaccompanied singer/songwriters are much thinner on the ground than unaccompanied traddies.

If everyone's fed up with the guy, keep up the social pressure. He may not notice one or two people heading for the bar, but if five people left at once it'd be hard to ignore, and if fifty people a day... sorry, got sidetracked. If two or three of you want to tune up, go into an ostentatious huddle to do it. And so on.

If it's only you who's fed up with him, you'll just have to put up with it. There's a certain kind of 'protest' song I can't stand, that starts by saying "things we all approve of are good and things we all hate are bad", then says it over and over again in slightly different words for four verses (plus choruses). But friends of mine regularly sing them, to general appreciation, so I keep my gob shut. They'd probably describe the kind of song I like as saying "there was a girl, she met a boy, everybody died" over the length of 25 verses.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 07:30 AM

"canal whheeler, since you clearly do not like this guy, why not try do you know you have b. o.,or do you know every week you are here singing the milkmaman is putting a bun in your wifes oven"

Illiterate Troll alert!

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: cooperman
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 05:56 AM

Tell him his songs are interesting and it would be great if he could write a new one...a compliment, a challenge and a hint!!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 05:48 AM

canal whheeler, since you clearly do not like this guy, why not try do you know you have b. o.,or do you know every week you are here singing the milkmaman is putting a bun in your wifes oven

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 05:46 AM

Sorry - missed a bit:
"Do you have a rule that states you can't repeat a song within say, four club meetings?"
Theoretically, the Singers Club operated a policy that residents (not regular visitors) didn't repeat the same song song over three months - didn't always work, especially with newly composed songs with immediate contemporary themes, but it was a tremendous spur to build a substantial working repertoire.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 05:41 AM

"How do you deal with a singer who sings the same old two or three songs over and over again"
Part of the assistance is passing on new songs - London Singers Workshop amassed a huge 'dip-in' archive made up originally of songs to learn, but which later broadened into Irish, Scots, American and International sections and included lectures and radio programmes for those who wanted to 'lift the corner to see what was underneath.
Like Topsy, thanks to the efforts of those who wished to help, it "just growed".
MacColl and Seeger had a large file of songs in duplicate, traditional and their own, for sending out on request.
One of the features of the Singers Club was 'The New City Songster' 20 volumes of contemporary songs edited by Peggy Seeger and contributed from songwriters from all over the world.   
Having said which, deep-sea fisherman Sam Larner sang 'Butter and Cheese and All' once a week throughout his long life at the singaround at his local pub, The Fisherman's Return, in Winterton, Norfolk - some are good enough to get away with it, some aren't!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 05:28 AM

Tone, here is a different point of view, that guy gets pleasure from singing those songs, furthermore here is a quote "old timey musicians make their singing and music appear effortless because they sing their material over and over".
I would rather have a performer who sang three songs well than a performer who is unfamiliar with their song and hides behind a bloody crib sheet, it is the crib sheeters of this world who are bringing the music down, mumbling away and performing badly.
answer,you just put up with it.

why not tune up your guitar in a different room or ask him nicely can i just have a few seconds to tune up.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 05:05 AM

Another issue.

How do you deal with a singer who sings the same old two or three songs over and over again everywhere he goes, and has done so for years, almost since the club was founded in fact? He's a good performer. The songs he writes are not great but interesting..... the first time round. His guitar playing is adequate.

Sometimes you can almost hear an audible groan when the audience recognise the opening chords yet again. It does seem that several folks manage to find their glass is empty when it's his turn, requiring a quick trip to the bar.

Do you ask him if he knows any others songs? Do you say, "You sung that last week, and the week before that, etc."

Do you have a rule that states you can't repeat a song within say, four club meetings?

Do you just put up with it?

Do you go to a different club?

He also has an annoying habit of playing his guitar before the club starts and during the beer break, when others want to tune up, but that is another matter.

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 04:39 AM

"Maybe what this thread needs at this juncture is someone who is a crap singer and is keenly aware of the fact. Move over"
No-no-no...
The sad thing about all these discussions is that they never seem to come to terms with the fact that that, with a little assistance and a little effort, anybody who is willing to put in the time can become a proficient singers, and with further effort, can become a good one.
Turning 'bad' (read inexperienced) singers away is never an option, just as turning clubs and public sessions into venues for practicing in public is not an option either.
Audiences (whether they are made up of singers or just listeners) deserve reasonable performances and anybody interested enough to want to sing deserves help to do so.
In a quarter of a century of working in workshops, I can never remember meeting 'a hopeless case' who was not worth working with - some take longer than others, but all were worth it.
I stopped singing seriously decades ago; but recently, having got my singing 'second wind', I find myself feeding on all the valuable advice and help I was given all those years ago when I was treading water as a green singer.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 03:41 AM

I don't get quite so hung up about the crib sheets than a lot of people on here seem to get. We are only talking about singarounds and not paid performances. I tend to enjoy a good performance/presentation more than worry about whether they have crib sheets or not. Surely it is how they are used? I agree it is preferable to know the song without the use of a sheet but I' rather see a good performace with sheets than an inferior one without. There is one guy at our club who always uses sheets but they are basically just a prompt or perhaps even just a fall back to quickly glance at if he were to forget. You'd hardly know they were there if you knew at all and his interaction etc with the audience is really impressive as is his delivery. I agree it is not much fun watching someone sing if there eyes are glued to their book trhoughout the performance But then again we have some who wouldn't dream of using a sheet yet they hardly seem to get through a song without fumbling over words or forgetting them completely.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 06:18 PM

do you apply the same standards to people in orchestras? If not, why not?

Of course not. Orchestral musicians are there to perform the music of a composer - which is interpreted by an individual conductor. They may perform the same piece several times in their career, but with different interpretations - and different markings.

Moreover, many classical soloists perform their pieces - often incredibly complex pieces - without any music.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 06:17 PM

We appear to be veering off-topic a bit. The subject of whether or not crib sheets are an abomination - or sadly unavoidable due to the failing memories of aging folkies - has been discussed at great length in many other threads...

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 05:47 PM

Put up a link to a performance of yours "Sean O'Shea" and we'll tell you what we think.

Oh, and do you apply the same standards to people in orchestras? If not, why not?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Sean O'Shea
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 03:45 PM

I find it appalling that singers use word sheets in what they call performance.
What is worse,for me,is when these singers repeat the same song,maybe in multiples,over periods of time and are still using the words,making no attempt at learning.Reading words as one sings is academia,not singing.
Even worse and in fact stunningly amazing is the people who can not present a song with any form or structure or continuity even though they are using word sheets.These people have no right to lead a song in this way and comperes should not accept them.
Tolerance is the home of degraded standards.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Brian Peters
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 10:15 AM

Well, the bit about the following week was said slightly in jest - HB did have strong opinions about what was good and what wasn't. The standard at that club - as I remember it - was pretty high, although left-field performances were often welcomed. Harry picked the singers he liked to be his residents, and gave them extended spots. Maybe that just set a standard.

"You're singing flat" may have the virtue of honesty, but I doubt how helpful it would be. The best singers in my experience are confident ones.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 09:50 AM

"Neither would ever have said anything so crass as: "Do you realise you're singing flat?", although a flat singer might not have got asked to sing at the club the following week!"
My question would be which of these two responses is the most honest and ultimately the most helpful long term.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Mysha
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 09:45 AM

Hi,

Phil; I was reacting more to the two sides of the Needle of Death story, but you're right: In the context of this thread it does make sense if someone is speaking on behalf of the group. But then, in that situation you'd probably be pushing someone away, even if the hope is that they'll improve because of it. A bit of a last resort, I guess, if no gentler form of help will work, just one step away from marching someone to the parking lot for hands-on demonstrations.

Thread-drift part:
GSS: Don't worry. I don't have a crib to begin with, so the rare occasions I use sheets for one are when I need to recall who wrote the songs. And with the idea of bringing a pitch-pipe, I could add the keys or the starting notes there (don't know which works best, yet). For lyrics and melodies, OTOH, I just bring my head along, which usually works fine.

                                                               Mysha

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 09:44 AM

Brian Peters - interesting.

It's always nice to get constructive advice from people you respect - "that was nice, but I listened to what you were doing and I wondered if you'd thought of X" kind of thing. I think what bugged me about the comment I got was the feeling that it was a put-down dressed up as constructive advice - "that was nice, but I listened to what you were doing and I thought you were flat".

Alternatively, of course, it may actually have been constructive advice which I over-reacted to; I may just have been a little too sensitive. Either way it's water under the bridge now.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Phil E
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 09:28 AM

A health warning would have been good, Jack - I'm feeling distinctly woozy after watching 30 seconds of that video. Ten hours!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Brian Peters
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 09:14 AM

"critical comments from the likes of Harry Boardman and Steve Mayne...."

> what it was about those criticisms that made them helpful & not undermining?

Over thirty years ago Harry told me to drop the 'folkie' voice and try to sing in something closer to my speaking voice ("Why are you putting on that bloody stupid voice to sing?" would be close to the way he phrased it). I remember Steve advising me to drop a specific verse from a song simply bcause he considered it lyrically weak - which was a surprise at the time, because I thought you had to sing all the words that were in the book! There was also regular advice on repertoire. I suppose it was relatively easy to take because (a) it was constructive in content, (b) I respected both singers, and (c) they wouldn't have bothered if they'd thought I wasn't worth the effort. Neither would ever have said anything so crass as: "Do you realise you're singing flat?", although a flat singer might not have got asked to sing at the club the following week!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 07:54 AM

I wonder if Sean or anyone has managed to use one of these as a drone while singing and managed to stay on pitch?

Shepard tone downwards
Shepard tone upwards

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 07:19 AM

People who believe that there is such a thing as perfect pitch (and that they have it) say they suffer physical anguish at drifting. I wonder how they can live with the existence of (without limitation) the various medieval pitches, military pitch, and modern concert pitch.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 07:00 AM

mysha, throw away the crib sheet,never mind the oysters, you can throw them away too.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 05:33 AM

Jack - fair enough. I don't often get nervous about pitching - once I've got a song down my voice seems to remember what note to start on - and if I ever do I've usually got a whistle to hand. But whatever works!

I do drift sometimes, particularly on long songs - the first time I recorded myself singing Lord Bateman I discovered when I listened to it back that I'd been a full tone lower at the end than when I'd started. I think that's the only exception to the general rule of musicianly self-awareness: If You're Screwing Up You're The First To Know (If You're Any Good). Does drifting matter, though? I'd say not much, if you're singing unaccompanied - just as long as it is a drift & not a sudden lurch, and as long as you don't drift so low (or high) as to give yourself problems.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 03:36 AM

Yes, take the means to find your own note. I know one (sadly a music teacher) who appears to think that the first note in a song is the key - recipe for disaster, and was once badly set up (I think unintentionally) by a squeezer. I asked for a C chord and he gave us a C note. The start note of the song is G. Result - disaster!

And yes, an accompaniment can be MOST useful to help people to stay in key.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 09:13 PM

Pitch pipes only help those who can sing in tune, as Eileen can, to find where to start. Even then, that's not foolproof as I've seen some disasters where people have confused start note of the song with key: not all songs start on the tonic! I have suggested, as
Jack says, that singers might write down their preferred key on their crib sheet, to which came the heated answer, "I know nothing about keys!", to which I would gently say, "but you're singing it in A and that suits your voice, so next time you sing it, ask for a musician to give you an A".
Pitch pipes don't help those who wander around keys (why do they always choose desperately chromatic songs?) An accompanying instrument can sometimes help people stay on key: I did just this very quietly for a friend who had thought she would sing a capella but then wanted a wee instrumental between verses: on her own, she drifted upwards, but with me doing a very restrained basic chordal accompaniment, she stayed on key.
And I've long since stopped carting the big song folders (and tune books) to sessions. Just a couple of sheets plus a few in the head. If the one you really wanted to sing/play has been left at home, tough, you can always do it next time!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 08:21 PM

a fellow singer commented on the dodgy top notes and asked if I'd ever considered a pitch pipe. I said No. A fuller answer would have been "Firstly, I usually carry a whistle [...]

The person I've seen making most most use of one is the Edinburgh singer Eileen Penman, who has been leading song workshops for many years. I don't think her vocal range is anything exceptional but I've never heard her mispitch a song. So, using one is not the mark of a beginner.

She wears one of the 12-pointed-star types as a pendant round her neck. If that isn't your image maybe wearing it like a sheriff's badge might fit.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 07:08 PM

There's a certain insincerity in behaving differently because of who is the organiser/promotor/etc

I think the idea is that if the organiser has a word, he or she is telling you to shape up for the benefit of the singaround as a whole, whereas if another punter complains they're effectively saying "you should sing better for my benefit".

Interesting point about getting up mid-song - yes, that would be seen as mightily rude at all the singarounds I've been to, and some of the folk clubs. People do make their move when somebody's starting to sing, but obviously that can only express a reaction to the singer (based on past performances), not to this particular performance. For that we'd be dependant on the yawn, the shuffle, the noisily-deposited glass, the muttered comment to the neighbour, the half-hearted chorus contribution and (worst of all) the polite ripple at the end of it. (I've had 'em all, needless to say.)

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Mysha
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 06:35 PM

Hi,

Most of the answers approach the question as if it were about "THE singaround". Instead it's about "A singaround", and its mores may be different from those of "another signaround" or "your singaround".

At our sing/play-around, we make effort to perform well, but often we'll do things we're still working on, just for the joy of sharing. Not that we encourage sloppy play, but I guess we do encourage reaching upward.
I think the most common forms of unasked-for help at our group are: Playing along to ease the performace, and making suggestions about how to make things easier, stronger, etc.. Even if you're, to you, the best performer at your gather, would you turn away from advice to improve? Nearly anyone will at least try out an alternative (though some may do so intending to to demonstrate that it doesn't work).
But still, that's just at our sing/play-around. Yours will be different.


In other news:
- There's a certain insincerity in behaving differently because of who is the organiser/promotor/etc., though in the end that's everyone's own choice.
- Personally, I'd say "Shame, ..." is a rather improper way to voice you opinion of a performance, but getting up in the middle of a song is definitely not how my mother brought me up. And that holds for talking about someone when his back is turned as well.
- Thanks for the tip on using a pitch-pipe. Though I have one for the occasional absolute tuning of my guitar at home, for some reason I hadn't so far made the jump they could be used for singing.
- But I don't like oysters; why would I want a world-sized one?

Bye
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 05:20 PM

being pusillanimous and sweet-natured I am compelled to say I never mentioned weedy; I blame the instrument not the singer.
I apologise in advance for any distress caused to said concertina.
John.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 04:27 PM

>but loud concertina<

You mean my voice is too weedy to carry over it. That sounds like criticism to me. How very very dare you...

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 12:11 PM

If you tend to start in very inappropriate keys, get a pitchpipe.

Someone recommended a pitch pipe to me, once. I don't know if I speak for other singers here, but there's an untrustworthy note or two right at the top of my range; I usually avoid singing right up there, but if I need to I can usually manage to hit it, as long as I don't need to stay there too long. A song I learned a few years ago hit those notes briefly, but gave them rather a dangerous degree of prominence. Practising, I spotted the danger and tried pitching the whole thing a bit lower, but it didn't sound - or more importantly, feel - right. To get out of the danger zone I needed to go down a whole tone; the trouble was, most of the song was much lower down, and it ended up sounding much too big and 'chesty'. I decided to risk it.

When I first sang the song out, a fellow singer commented on the dodgy top notes and asked if I'd ever considered a pitch pipe. I said No. A fuller answer would have been "Firstly, I usually carry a whistle; secondly, I'm fairly confident I was pitching that song where I meant to pitch it, so getting a note wouldn't have made any difference; thirdly, if I had started lower I can guarantee that the bulk of the song wouldn't have sounded as good, so if those top notes really were wince-inducingly awful I'm just going to have to work on my range; and fourthly, I don't think I saw anybody wincing."

Maybe it's just as well I stuck to the short answer.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 07:19 PM

Raymond, I think you have a nice tuneful voice and an excellently played but loud concertina. In vino veritas.
best wishes John

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 05:59 PM

That sound like paranoia Raymond - I'd go the doctor and get it checked.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 05:31 PM

Maybe what this thread needs at this juncture is someone who is a crap singer and is keenly aware of the fact. Move over — I am that singer. (And several of the contributors to this thread are also aware of this fact, though of course they're too nice to say so…) I can report that over the quarter century in which I have inflicted my rude tones on the folk-listening public of South Yorkshire, no-one has ever upbraided me for my shortcomings, either in general earshot or in "A word in your ear…" fashion. Nor have I ever heard anyone else publicly admonished for this offence. I also have a dozen years experience of running folk clubs, and never in that time have I discouraged a singer from getting up and singing, whatever my personal opinion of their abilities. What can we conclude from this? That S Yorks is a standards-free zone? That we're too sweet-natured or pusillanimous to make our private feelings known? Or that I simply don't pay attention enough? Maybe all these things.

Come to think of it, I recall that a now sadly deceased resident of a Sheffield club had a policy of sprinting to the bar whenever my turn to sing came round. Strange that his glass always attained a state of perfect emptiness at that exact point in the evening…

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 04:46 PM

"the knowledge that some critical comments from the likes of Harry Boardman and Steve Mayne in my early years actually helped me a lot."

Brian - maybe you could say a bit more about this - as in, what it was about those criticisms that made them helpful & not undermining? (Maybe it was just a matter of you being sensible enough to take them the right way, of course.)

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 02:35 PM

"And none of them used crib sheets - in fact some of them needed to hear a song only a couple of times to consider it learned."
crib shheters please take note, be liberated throw away your stabilisers, learn to fly , the world is your oyster

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 01:32 PM

I `ad that Phil Driscol in my cab the other night. `e `oo organises folk sessions when it`s not guest night in a pub in `ertfordshire. `e looked well put out. Just as if `is "G" string gave way in the middle of a song.
I said, "Whats up Cecil? Someone gone and slopped beer in your melodeon, then?"
`e said, "Nah Jim. You know I`ve been running our sing and play arounds for years but lately its turned into a show case for poor tuning, missed notes, forgotten words, crib-sheets, awful amplification, multi-key cacophany, navel gazing and all the rest but when we`ve `ad your lot booked `ere the floor singing is top`ole".
I said, "Not to worry Cecil. You are putting on modern art!!"


Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 11:54 AM

I suspect what we call Song Circles in the States are very different from Sessions across the pond.
It would be unspeakably rude to criticise someone's performance at one of our Maine song circles. We are there to share the music and enjoy each other's contribution.
If, however, you choose to perform at a festival for example or on stage at a coffee shop and you screw up - you're on your own.
Someplace like the Getaway is also very open to different levels of talent. It is a real thrill to sing a song as best you can and have a "famous folkie" ask for the lyrics.
SINS

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 11:11 AM

I go to a number of different sessions, but one which contains many of the features that are anathema to some: people using crib sheets, singing off key, changing key repeatedly mid-song, timing idiosyncrasies etc. but yet it is a lovely friendly club and we put up with each other's imperfections and everyone supports each other. It is not a concert, after all!

I've been to local singarounds like that, though not for a while. I don't find them particularly friendly, because a lot of those problems are easily fixable, and if you don't do anything about them, you're just being inconsiderate to your listeners.

- If you tend to start in very inappropriate keys, get a pitchpipe. One of those 12-note star-shaped things, a phone with a tuner, or if you can use it, a harmonica. And write the key or starting note that works for you on your songsheet. You shouldn't get it wrong twice.

- Nobody has to spend longer flipping through a folder the size of phonebook to find a song than they're going to spend singing it. The obvious fix (assuming that you really and truly can't memorize anything) is to bring along only a handful of songs to choose from, varied enough to cover a few eventualities that might turn up.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 10:07 AM

First let me say I am aware of my own limitations. I can generally sing in tune and use simple guitar accompaniments which match my abilities.
uncritical acceptance of performances in singarounds and clubs results in a downward spiral. The more able performers whose criticism and advice could be the most helpful are the first to find pastures new.
Some months ago I went to a singaround I had not visited before. Of the half dozen other players two were Ok, one forgot the words, one sang way out of tune, one had the words on paper but stopped due to nerves, one nearly played a guitar piece all the notes but order and timing a problem. An old regular at the pub stopped me as I left and said do come back, sometimes people come who can play and sing. Will I go again- doubt it.
Although slightly off the point of the sensibilities of unsought criticism, I think there important issues about performance in any setting which need addressing.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Maryrrf
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 09:55 AM

I've been following this thread with interest, and thought I'd put in my two cents. First of all, I think the remark described by the OP was mean spirited and rude. It wasn't meant to be helpful, it was just snide. Nobody gives a perfect performance every time, and in that I include even the professionals that everybody looks up to. You don't always notice it during a live performance, because it's over in a flash, or in a studio recording, because they'll fix it or rerecord until they get a perfect version, but when you start playing live recordings or watching concert snippets posted on You Tube and the like, you'll see that there are sometimes bum notes, forgotten lyrics, not so perfect timing, etc. This is one of the reasons a lot of singers and musicians don't like it when fans post videos without their permission. I know of one person who was mortified to see a video of a performance where they were still in the throes of jetlag and botched a song - but it's out there for all to see.

I think there are situations where sensitive and helpful criticism would be appropriate, and that is when the singer has asked for it or made it known that they welcome suggestions for improvement, or in the case of someone truly dreadful who just needs to be told because the audience or other participants just can't bear it any more. But helpful would mean tactful - a gentle pointing out of the problem, and perhaps a suggestion for remedying it.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 09:24 AM

One of my friends said to me this year when indulging in our usual impromptu jam in our Greek watering hole:"Does that song actually have a tune?" after I sang a solo! Then again, after another song a stranger said to me:"You said you can't sing, you can sing". I should have offered her hearing aid batteries.

RtS

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 08:44 AM

Yo, Richard...

Resonating stringed instruments can be very loud... Back when I was participating in weekly jams at Archie Edwards Barber Shop there was one particular player who had a metal bodied National resonator and it was louder than all the rest of the acoustic guitars combined... I remember Mike Baytop stopping a jam and asking it's owner to play softer... The owner was embarrassed but never again played it hard... He got it...

B~

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 08:05 AM

I was going to stay out of this one on the grounds of total indecisiveness, but I've just noticed a namecheck amongst the posts above, so will wade in.

Fyldeplayer wrote:
"Couple of years ago I attended interesting 'talk' by Brian Peters illustrated by a succession of 'old' recordings of source singers most of whom were poor singers (subjective opinion), but clearly had made a contribution to the 'folk' world...
Isn't it part of the folk charm? I find super sweet note perfect voices boring"

Most of the source recordings I play at workshops are chosen because I believe the singers are (or were) masters of their craft, with the odd exception like Billy Buckingham's 'Waysailing Bowl' (on Voice of the People) which I play because it's a great example of an uninhibited, inebriated good time. I defy anyone to say that Phil Tanner's 'Henry Martin' isn't an outstanding vocal performance, but equally I can enjoy recordings that are less thrilling and less accurate than Tanner's. A technically 'poor' singer can still do a great job of putting a song across. And, as Fyldeplayer suggests, there's more to singing folk songs than sweetness and perfection. Many years ago I had a spirited spat in the local folk press with an individual who had reviewed the Copper Family along the lines of: "Well, of course they can't sing, but you can't deny their importance." I listen now to recordings of Bob Copper and find his singing quite beautiful, though it would never pass muster at Covent Garden. Different rules apply.

On the thread topic, I'm torn between a deep personal reluctance to deliver a put-down to any inexperienced and probably nervous singer, and the knowledge that some critical comments from the likes of Harry Boardman and Steve Mayne in my early years actually helped me a lot. I'm also torn between a longstanding belief in the egalitarian and mutually-supportive ideals of the old folk world (now gradually fading as artists are put on ever higher pedestals), and memories of floor singers so awful that you dreaded any 'member of the public' coming through the door. So no decisive answer from me, except to note that each of those traditional singers whose recordings I play had in common a complete committment to the song they were singing. And none of them used crib sheets - in fact some of them needed to hear a song only a couple of times to consider it learned.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: mayomick
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 07:47 AM

That wasn't criticism , it was an insult - shame is the operative word . It's like saying to a woman "that's a lovely haircut , shame about your face."

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,John Routledge
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 07:02 AM

Very easy to be too loud in a small room - even without a mic.