BS: Muslim prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 06:59 PM

All the victims who went to their MPs, Straw and Cryer.
All abused by BPs.
All the victims of those convicted in the 17 cases in the Dando report.
95% BPs.
All the hundreds of Sikh and Hindu girls who went to their own support groups .
All abused by BPs.
What is your opinion of all those young girl victims Jim?
Do you call them liars?
Is that not a kind of abuse too?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 06:49 PM

Barnados.
They said that ethnic groups were "over-represented"
They said there was an issue of "ethnicity" in high profile (many victim) cases.
It is not their business to identify any over-representation and probably do not even record the ethnicity of perpetrators.
I have seen no Barnados statement that refutes the over-rep.
Have you?

CeoP is currently carrying out a survey to see if there are any "patterns of offending, victimisation, or vulnerability within these cases" as well as identifying how victims and offenders could be better identified."

They have also not refuted an over-rep.They are due to report in less than a month now.

"Have you no pity on the poor victims you are using to get your racist message across? - listen to their cries for help "

I have paid heed to all the available information about the girls Jim.
All the 400 seen by Wilmer.
Everyone stated that BPs were their abusers.
I listen.
You do not.
All the victims seen by Bindel.
The same.
All the victims in the German report.
All the same.
The victims who recorded their statements.
All the same.
All the victims in the three current court cases aginst BP gangs.
Whether the BP gangs are convicted or not, the victims all accuse them.
Why will you not listen to them Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 06:25 PM

Jon, I support no theory.
My only case is that the evidence for an over-rep seems overwhelming.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 03:39 PM

"They just have no reason to say if any particular group are over-represented."
They have said no such thing, they protested at the issue being used by racists like yourself. that it is being sidelined by being made a racist issue.
Have you no pity on the poor victims you are using to get your racist message across? - listen to their cries for help (to take a leaf from your own book).
And your reply to Keith Vaz, Ceop, Jack Straw et al about it not being a problem connected wih any race in particular, but being multi-cultural.
And Barnardos statement on street grooming being a common problem not connected to one race?
Come on Keith - we have a right to an answer after all this, surely?.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 03:14 PM

Jon, "Keith's theory however gives a UK wide "British Pakistani" cultural problem."
Keith does not have a theory Jon, as I have told you many, many times.

OK, the theory that Keith supports and constitutes "his case".

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 03:02 PM

Jon, "Keith's theory however gives a UK wide "British Pakistani" cultural problem."
Keith does not have a theory Jon, as I have told you many, many times.

Jim, I do not believe Barnados are wrong.
They say it is not exclusive to BPs.
I am sure it is not.
They say that ethnicity is an issue.
They just have no reason to say if any particular group are over-represented.
They have said nothing to challenge the possibility of an over-rep.

Jack Straw said that there was an issue for BPs in this particular sex crime.
He also said that prisons are full of white offenders for sex crimes in general.
It was his indictment of BPs that started this furore. Remember?

Ake, you are wrong in one respect.
I am not looking for an explanation.
I just offered the one that was widely reported at the time, and said that I find it plausible.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 02:49 PM

So we get no answer to this one either!
If Barnardos et al are wrong on this fundamental issue they should not be doing the job they have chosen (and are trusted by others) to do.
If they are right, then the welfare of these abused children is less important than Keith getting his racist message across and it doesn't matter too much that "the children had 'been forgotten".
And all those bucketfuls of tears really straight from the crocodile..
Which is it to be?
"Where this type of crime appears, it is mainly British Pakistanis who are involved as perps"
Not according to Barnardos, Jack Staw and others, it ain't.
"Keith is simply looking for an explanation of this phenomenon."
No he isn't; he's trying to prove (not very well), that British Pakistanis are cultural pervs.
"Just as I have been asking why are homosexuals so over represented in hiv/ aids figures?"
.... then add a little pinch of homophobia then stir well!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 02:39 PM

Keith is simply looking for an explanation of this phenomenon.

On the information and suggestions posted here, I favour Don's
"a case of criminal activity of a localised group of interacting gangs who are Pakistani because gangs tend to consist of just one ethnic group."

---
Just as I have been asking why are homosexuals so over represented in hiv/ aids figures?

If you are getting at what I think you are, I probably agree with you.

While I do think one needs to be extremely careful in (I suppose) presenting theories, I think there can be a danger in being politically correct to the point of ignoring or not daring to look at something that could be important. It's not easy...

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 02:20 PM

But Jon....Pakistani communities are not distributed evenly over the UK.

Where this type of crime appears, it is mainly British Pakistanis who are involved as perps
Keith is simply looking for an explanation of this phenomenon.

Just as I have been asking why are homosexuals so over represented in hiv/ aids figures?

Sorry if I was a bit short in my last post, it wasn't aimed at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 01:07 PM

Open your eyes and ears and forget your "liberal" ideology.

?????

I've nothing against the possibility of a cultural issue being proposed or discussed. I'd just like to see a theory support the (whole) facts presented.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 01:04 PM

My God is it not obvious that Pakistani men are over represented in these crimes

This does appear to be true in selected areas, yes.

Keith's theory however gives a UK wide "British Pakistani" cultural problem.

Keith has come up with absolutely nothing supporting this claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 01:00 PM

Jon, it reveals the terrifying scale of this kind of child abuse and acknowledges that ethnicity is an issue at least in the high profile cases, which I take to mean cases involving large numbers of child victims.

Would you or Jim, or anyone have any response to all the other items I linked to?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 12:54 PM

"I am putting the case for an over-rep."
You can't pick and choose what your bit you believe if your 'experts are as esteemed as you claim them to be - (or, in your case, edit your cut-'n-pastes when it suits you).
You have put up the Barnados statement to back up your case - are they right or wrong in saying that:
"the children had 'been forgotten as discussion has focused on the ethnicity of perpetrators in high-profile cases".
Are you claiming to know better than Barnardo's who have clearly protested at the type of racist use you are making of the issue?
If they (and the others in the quote) are wrong on such a fundamental issue, can we put any faith whatever in such 'experts', or do we pick and mix to support our own perverted views as you are doing here?
You have persistantly attempted to claim Pakistanis are culturally inclined towards paedophelia (please don't make me put your quotes up again.)
There is no over-representation until you prove there is - you haven't, so there isn't - doesn't get much simpler than that
And the street grooming - where do you stand on that following the Barnados statement - are they wrong on that one too?
As far as I am concerned the racist issue is just that - a racist issue which you continue to peddle - making you - a racist.
Interesting to see that things haven't changed while I've been away - didn't expebct them to really - leaopards, spots and all that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 12:29 PM

My God is it not obvious that Pakistani men are over represented in these crimes.....do you not follow the news, read the newspapers?

In all the cases I have followed Pakistani menn are massively over represented.
Think about precentages please.

Denial does not answer Keiths point, when all the facts support with him.

Open your eyes and ears and forget your "liberal" ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 11:31 AM

I am putting the case for an over-rep.

So how does your last copy/paste support your case?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 11:26 AM

Jim, Barnardo's is rightly concerned only with the child victims, and not at all with the ethnicity of their abusers.

You say,
""the children had 'been forgotten as discussion has focused on the ethnicity of perpetrators in high-profile cases."Which is what you are continuing to do here"

But, this debate is ABOUT whether ethnicity is a factor.
I am putting the case for an over-rep.
The quote acknowledges that ethnicity is an issue, at least in "high profile cases."
Also, quote from original BBC piece, "And, Narey of Barnados stated that there was an over-representation"

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 09:39 AM

As you seem to be holding a converation mainly with yourself - thought I'd point this out.
From your scan of the Barnardo report:
"the children had 'been forgotten as discussion has focused on the ethnicity of perpetrators in high-profile cases."
Which is what you are continuing to do here.
The Barnardo report, unlike you, makes no attempt to link abuse to any one race or culture, yet you continue with your crusade to make it a "British Pakistani cultural thing" - don't you read your own cut and pastes?
While you continue to make this a race/culture issue you are continuing to "forget" the fate of these children
The figure of 2,756 cases of abuse refers only to one year (2009) of abuse, which makes the around hundred or so examples over a number of years that you have produced so far as miniscule as it acutually is and puts the problem into context.
A report carried by the Guardian early this year made clear the attitude of Barnardos, Ceop and others in attempting to make this a racial issue.

"The sexual exploitation of children cannot "be simplified along ethnic lines", the head of the child protection agency said today.
Peter Davies was announcing that the Child Exploitation and Online Protection (Ceop) centre is to investigate "on-street" grooming, leading to abuse and exploitation.
He said: "Child sexual exploitation is not exclusive to any single culture, community, race or religion - it cuts across all communities. Neither can it be simplified along ethnic lines where the victims constitute one ethnicity and offenders another."
"We need to continue to build our understanding about the different types of threats faced by children across a range of environments."
Ceop's assessment would establish "whether it is accurate to identify any patterns of offending, victimisation, or vulnerability within these cases" as well as identifying how victims and offenders could be better identified.
Davies said the investigation was prompted by "recent events" including the conviction of Asian men in Derbyshire for abusing girls as young as 12, which sparked claims from Jack Straw, the Labour former home secretary, of a cultural problem in the Pakistani community.
Two men, identified in Operation Retriever as the gang's ringleaders, Mohammed Liaqat, 28, and Abid Saddique, 27, were sentenced on Friday to a minimum of eight and 11 years respectively at Nottingham crown court for raping and sexually abusing their victims. They would seek out and befriend girls in Derby as young as 12, often plying them with alcohol and drugs and groom them for sex, before passing the girls onto older men. The judge in the case said he did not believe the case was racially aggrevated, saying that the race of victims and abusers were coincidental.
However, Straw, the MP for Blackburn, sparked a furious backlash from MPs and children's groups after he told the BBC's Newsnight that vulnerable white girls were seen as "easy meat" by some Pakistani men. He said it was a "specific problem" within the Pakistani community which needed to be "more open" about it.
His comments were criticised by children's charity, Barnardos, Muslim youth group the Ramadhan Foundation and retired detective chief superintendent Max McLean, who led a previous investigation into sexual exploitation involving young girls in Leeds. All said he was wrong to highlight one community. Barnardo's chief executive, Martin Narey, said on-street grooming was "probably happening in most towns and cities" and was not confined to the Pakistani community.
Last week, authors of the first independent academic analysis into child sex trafficking within the UK, which focused on two police investigations in the North and the Midlands, also warned of the dangers of racial stereotyping amid claims of a widespread problem of Pakistani men exploiting underage white girls.
Keith Vaz, the chairman of the Commons home affairs select committee, who had described Straw's comments as "dangerous", said Ceop will be asked to give evidence on its inquiry to the committee.
"A thorough and comprehensive national investigation on street grooming is urgently needed," he said. "A full investigation will give the police the information they need to target the criminals and criminal networks involved in this hideous crime."
Ceop said its findings would be made public within three to six months time."

Yesterdays Times includes the following about the 2009 figures, following on from online contact with their victims:

"For others, initial contact with their abuser happened in town centres, on street corners, in shopping malls, train or bus stations or outside school gates."
In other words - street grooming, which you have desparately attempted to make an exclusively 'Pakistani' thing, happens everywhere and includes all races and cultures.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 03:16 AM

The call for a minister with direct responsibility comes as the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (Ceop) revealed the extent of the crime, with 21 of its 22 teams across the country having uncovered evidence of organised grooming and trafficking.
Barnardo's says it is currently working with more than 1,000 children who have been groomed, abused and trafficked for money, but that the number represents only 'the tip of the iceberg'.
The charity also warned that the grooming of teenagers was being overlooked as social workers were preoccupied with younger children.
Ceop has begun a study 'to identify any patterns of offending, victimisation or vulnerability' but is keen for the debate to focus on the welfare of the victims.
Anne Marie Carrie, Barnardo's new chief executive, said the children had 'been forgotten as discussion has focused on the ethnicity of perpetrators in high-profile cases.
'Children are being passed from man to man, home to home, city to city.
'It's the domestic trafficking of children for money.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 04:46 AM

Child victims of sexual exploitation 'failed by the system'
Release Date: 15/06/2011

Thousands of children who are sexually exploited never see their perpetrators brought to justice, according to Barnardo's.
http://www.barnardos.org.uk/news_and_events/media_centre/press_releases.htm?ref=70223

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 04:21 AM

12:30am Wednesday 15th June 2011

A MUM whose 13-year-old daughter was plied with drugs and alcohol by a gang of Asian men who groomed her for sex has spoken of her 'nightmare' ordeal.
http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/9082678.Grooming_victim_s_mum_speaks_out_at__nightmare_ordeal__in_East_Lancashire/?ref

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 03:05 AM

Dozens of vulnerable teenage girls may have been rescued from the clutches of a paedophiles after a major police operation smashed a child sex gang.
Around 100 officers swooped on houses in a series of raids yesterday arresting 10 men suspected of grooming young girls for sex.
The victims were allegedly showered with gifts and then plied with drink and drugs before being taken to special 'sex parties' in Manchester and Salford.
At the parties the teenage girls – some as young as 14 - would be compelled to have sex with friends of the gang in what police say was a classic case of 'sexual grooming and entrapment.' Last night the men, all aged between 18-28, were being questioned by detectives at a number of different police stations across the North West.
They are the latest in a wave of arrests carried out by police investigating gangs of Asian men grooming underage white girls for sex.
A string of disturbing cases in the Midlands and north of England prompted the launch of a nationwide investigation to look into the phenomenon.
In January Former Home Secretary Jack Straw was accused of 'stereotyping after suggesting some men of Pakistani origin see white girls as 'easy meat'.
Last night police were confident they had smashed yet another alleged gang after arresting the 10 men – seven Asian, two white and one black – on suspected child sex offences.
http://m.dailymail.co.uk/mobile/news/article.html?articleID=2003317

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 01:31 AM

Seven teenage girls – one as young as 13 – were groomed into child prostitution with offers of alcohol, drink and cash by nine men in a sex-trafficking ring which centred around a small Shropshire town, a court has heard.

Some of the girls were sold on to other men to be abused, and one 15-year-old girl was plied with drink, drugs and cigarettes to persuade her to have sex with others as a "favour" to her "pimps", the prosecution said
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jun/14/sex-traffickers-groomed-child-prostitutes

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 01:16 AM

Let me put it simply for you.
Like you, Lox and Jim, I know little about Pakistanis.
Like you, I am not qualified to form an opinion about them or comment on one.

Like 5 year olds, you keep asking me for something I can not give.

What I can do is discuss the evidence for the over-rep.

Here is some.

When a campaign was targeted at the BP community in Blackburn, the incidence of this kind of child sexual abuse was eliminated.

The journalist Bindel in a rigorous investigation found large numbers of girls who had been abused by BPs, but none by other groups.
The German video report, no longer on YouTube, found exactly the same.
Jack Straw spoke about his own personal experience and contact with victims.
Ann Cryer said she had the same experience in her constituency.
The Dando Institue report on On-Street Grooming By Gangs, that has resulted in at least two follow up studies of On-Street Grooming By Gangs, that found 95% BP perpetrators.
Hilary Wilmer with her hundreds of cases, all BPs.
She corroborates all the previous.
Senior police officers, serving and retired.
Shafiq, Allibhai-Brown and Ahmed all tell the same story from BP perspective, and it corroborates all that has gone before.
Hindu and Sikh organisation who report hundreds of their girls have been victims too.
Perpetrators, all BPs

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 07:32 PM

This is daft.

We are arguing with a five year old.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 05:53 PM

This is a purveyor of racist propaganda according to Lox.
She is a journalist who has written for The Guardian, Observer, The New York Times, Time Magazine, Newsweek, The Evening Standard, The Mail and other newspapers and is now a regular columnist on The Independent and London's Evening Standard. She is also a radio and television broadcaster and author of several books. Her book, No Place Like Home, well received by critics, was an autobiographical account of a twice removed immigrant. From 1996 to 2001 she was a Research Fellow at the Institute for Public Policy Research which published True Colours on the role of government on racial attitudes. Tony Blair launched the book in March 1999. She is a senior fellow at the Foreign Policy Centre. In 2000 she published, Who Do We Think We Are? which went on to be published in the US too, an acclaimed book on the state of the nation. Andrew Marr and Sir Bernard Crick among other reviewers found the book exceptionally wise and challenging. After Multiculturalism, a pamphlet re-assessing the multicultural ideology in Britain was the first critical examination by a social democrat of a settled and now damaging orthodoxy. She is also a regular international public speaker in Britain, other European countries, North America and Asian nations. In 2001 came the publication of Mixed Feelings, a book on mixed race Britons which has been praised by all those who have reviewed it to date. In June 1999, she received an honorary degree from the Open University for her contributions to social justice. She is a Vice President of the United Nations Association, UK and has also agreed to be a special ambassador for the Samaritans. She is the President of the Institute of Family Therapy. She is married with a twenty eight year old son and thirteen year old daughter.


In 2001 she was appointed an MBE for services to journalism in the new year's honours list. In July 2003 Liverpool John Moore's University made her an Honorary Fellow. In 2003 she returned her MBE as a protest against the new empire in Iraq and a growing republicanism. In September 2004, she was awarded an honorary degree by the Oxford Brookes University . In April 2004, her film on Islam for Channel 4 won an award and in May 2004, she received the EMMA award for best print journalist for her columns in the Independent. In September 2004, a collection of her journalistic writings, Some of My Best Friends Are… was published in 2005. Since that year, she has been seen on stage in her one woman show, commissioned and directed by the Royal Shakespeare Company as part of their new work festival. In 2005, she was voted the 10th most influential black/Asian woman in the country in a poll and in another she was among the most powerful Asian media professionals in the UK. In 2008 she was appointed Visiting Professor of Journalism at Cardiff University School of Journalism, Media and Cultural Studies and Visiting
Professor of Journalism at the University of Lincoln.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 05:28 PM

"And it is not me who wants to discuss the explanation Lox.
I keep telling you I have no interest in it, but you will not let it drop. "

Hilarious!

You posted it you fool!

Now why don't you try grappling with Jons child friendly illustration of your error using the red and blue cup analogy.

God knows what you teach kids if you can't get it.

By the way, a racist explanation is defined, not by who provides it, but by whether or not it discriminates on grounds of race.

In this case it discriminates on grounds of culture.

Racism as a political term covers that.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 05:15 PM

Lox, you call it a "racist theory."
But, it is proposed by famously anti-racist Pakistanis.
How can it be a racist theory?
And, how can it be racist to report what anti-racists say?

And it is not me who wants to discuss the explanation Lox.
I keep telling you I have no interest in it, but you will not let it drop.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 04:50 PM

Jon, I did understand Don's point thank you.
I do not have an answer.
I know nothing about this stuff.
It is not my theory.
I merely posted it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 04:45 PM

Jon, we are only talking about those selected areas.

I GIVE UP....

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 04:42 PM

Jon, we are only talking about those selected areas.

Lox, you have made a twat of yourself again.
That was part of the January post, and it was about the process of debate, not the theory.
I had already stated in that post that the theory was not mine.

"You have provided a racist explanation"

No, I reported one provided by others.

" and defended it religiously."

Lie. I only said the proponents were of eminent stature and knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 04:41 PM

3. As has been said before, your claims of over representation stem from skewed statistics which no genuine mathematician would adduce as even indicating, much less proving a conclusion.

I dispute that Don.
There are hundreds of victims who say BPs were the perpetratores.
I have heard of none saying otherwise.

So? Your argument does not address what Don said.

4. Even were the statistics more solidly based, any over representation cannot possibly support your "cultural effect" theory.

Agreed.
Any theory should seek to explain the over-rep, not the other way round.
That theory does do that.

But the theory indicates the over rep- should exist elsewhere but it doesn't. I don't know why this is so difficult...

Let's say I made 6 cups of tea, putting sugar in the 3 blue cups and none in the 3 red cups.

Someone could come up with a theory that tea is sweet because it is in a blue cup. After all the theory does work for the small sample.

Now lets say I make another 6 cups, this time round putting the sugar in the 3 red cups.

Would you still be saying the theory is right because it still works for the original sample or would you stop and think "hang on, this theory is not working for the larger sample. Perhaps the tea is sweet in certain cups for another reason?"

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 04:30 PM

"This "over-rep" in itself does not "prove" the theory though. "

Agreed.
The theory is not capable of being proved.

The theory is capable of being discredited though. This theory states "British Pakistanis" yet only appears to hold true for British Pakistanis in selected cities in the North of England. As such it is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 03:21 PM

"If everone now wants to discuss explanations for it, then that is achieved."

But keith, only you have wanted to do that.

You have provided a racist explanation and defended it religiously.

And you have taken responsibility for it again on the 13th of june at 1.45am as follows:

"It works like this.
I put up my theory and you should try to find fault and/or an alternative.
Just calling me names is not the way. "

You called it "my theory" again.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 03:11 PM

Don, "it is just as likely to be a case of criminal activity of a localised group of interacting gangs who are Pakistani because gangs tend to consist of just one ethnic group."

The gangs involved in this crime (hundreds of child victims) are overwhelmingly BPs.
My case.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 10:34 AM

Confirming last 2 posts mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 06:20 AM

Don,
1. Several other ethnic groups in this country have exactly the same cultural mores as Pakistanis (Indian, Sikh, etc.), yet have no such problem with their young men.

I don't know Don.
Lively has pointed out that other groups are involved in this crime though.

2. Out of 1.2 million British Pakistanis, only a handful in a very confined area of the country have been found indulging in this "cultural" aberration.

Agreed Don.

3. As has been said before, your claims of over representation stem from skewed statistics which no genuine mathematician would adduce as even indicating, much less proving a conclusion.

I dispute that Don.
There are hundreds of victims who say BPs were the perpetratores.
I have heard of none saying otherwise.

4. Even were the statistics more solidly based, any over representation cannot possibly support your "cultural effect" theory.

Agreed.
Any theory should seek to explain the over-rep, not the other way round.
That theory does do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 06:14 AM

"This "over-rep" in itself does not "prove" the theory though. "

Agreed.
The theory is not capable of being proved.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 05:38 AM

it is just as likely to be a case of criminal activity of a localised group of interacting gangs who are Pakistani because gangs tend to consist of just one ethnic group.

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 05:34 AM

""Keith, I am prepared to accept that this over representation exists in the specified places. This "over-rep" in itself does not "prove" the theory though.""

Added to which, the "over representation" is such that, in addition to being statistically dodgy because of the sampling method and the sample size, it is just as likely to be a case of criminal activity of a localised group of interacting gangs who are Pakistani because gangs tend to consist of just one ethnic group.

This is a concept which Keith will not even discuss, but is a valid alternative to his "cultural predilection" theory, and about ten times as likely to be true.

And in addition, he has once again avoided a direct answer to any of my points because he HAS no answer.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 04:55 AM

Jon, I just wanted to establish that there is an over-rep in this specified crime, at least in those specified regions.

Keith, I am prepared to accept that this over representation exists in the specified places. This "over-rep" in itself does not "prove" the theory though.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 04:46 AM

I will verify my post by Mudcat midday.

Jon, I just wanted to establish that there is an over-rep in this specified crime, at least in those specified regions.

If everone now wants to discuss explanations for it, then that is achieved.

I have posted extensively about this idea from 23rd Jan onwards, and have no more to say about it.
I do not care who chooses to believe it or deny it.
I am persuaded, but will look with an open mind at any alternative ideas.
After five months however, there are none.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 04:33 AM

I don't know why you have bothered with all that, Keith.

The theory suggests that cultural attitudes/values within the British Pakistani community leads a small number into this sex trafficking.

At this point, while I might expect the crime to be to get sex for oneself rather than sell it, I am prepared to accept that any community might contain a small number willing to commit a particular crime and that frustration/inability to obtain legally may tip such a person over the edge.

As such, at this point, I'd just about be willing to consider the theory as plausible. My problem comes with the information that has been presented.

I would expect this behavioural pattern to be mirrored in other groups with a similar culture but this isn't happening. Why?

Perhaps even more importantly, I would expect the pattern to be consistent throughout the British Pakistani communities but this isn't happening. It appears to be confined to a few cities in the North of England. How can a British Pakistani cultural issue be confined just to selected groups of British Pakistanis?

With the statistics as they are, I find it impossible to accept the theory. If you can explain why to the above questions, I might be interested. If you can provide alternative national statistics, I might be interested. But I find a "Who's who" of no value whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 01:45 AM

Now, I am just a schoolteacher from Hertford.
I know not of what they all speak, but I suspect their understanding is deeper than Don's.

I think they are probably right, but I really don't care so do not ask me to defend or support them.
I am not qualified.
Is Don?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 01:40 AM

Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Muslim youth group the Ramadan Foundation said 53 out of the last 65 convictions for grooming had involved British Pakistanis.

"The reality is that there is an issue," he said. "There is a perception that these white girls have lesser morals and lesser values than women from Pakistani heritage.

"It's abhorrent and there needs to be debate."

However, he criticised Mr Straw for only raising the issue once he had left government, despite being warned about the problem two and a half years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 01:38 AM

Mohammed Shafiq is the chief executive and a founding member of the Ramadhan Foundation, the United Kingdom's leading Muslim youth organization'.[1] The foundation is a moderate group aimed at helping young Muslims in the UK and fostering interfaith dialogue.[2]

As the Press Spokesman, he was able to become a regular face responding to Muslim issues. Some accuse him of being a "rent a quote" with strong views and that he does not think of the consequences of his actions, whilst others praise him for speaking out.[citation needed]

Shafiq has spoken out against extremism and terrorism, and was the first UK Muslim Leader to appear on BBC News to condemn the Glasgow terrorist attack.[citation needed]BBC News 24

He was the project manager for the international Muslim Unity Convention, held in the aftermath of the 7/7 attacks.[3]

He was appointed as press spokesman of The Ramadhan Foundation in August 2005 and made numerous statements on controversial subjects like forced marriages, honour killings, grooming of white teenagers, and drug dealers

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 01:35 AM

About Straw.
Being avowedly a leftie liberal, anti-racist, feminist, Muslim, part-Pakistani, and yes, a very responsible person, I should be in the circle with these objectors – particularly as I can't stand the Rt Hon MP for Blackburn, his devious, shady politicking and moral expediency. However, just as when he criticised the full veil, I cannot condemn his views. How can I? Just before Christmas, I too wrote about these rapists and the anti-white cultural prejudices in some of their communities and families. It was a hard column to write, as is this one. Easier to pick your way barefoot through a dark park littered with broken glass. You need to think about every line, its effect, and know that you will step on the shard that will cut you, however carefully you tread.

I accept that on the basis of the evidence presented in court, this Derby gang was no different from that of the white grooming posse convicted in Cornwall in November. They too preyed on helpless, easily-pleased young white girls who were then used and destroyed. Most paedophiles in this country are white, and their victims too. Just because they harm their own doesn't make it less abominable or more acceptable. What does it matter to a young, white, rape victim whether her violator has pasty or dark skin? And it is gratifying that reputable figures like Barnado's Martin Narey and the judge in the Derby case have spoken out against wholesale racial scapegoating. We know extremists use race and crime statistics to stoke racial hatred against Britons of colour and from religious minorities. I have sometimes been a pin-up girl for the repellent BNP and English Defence League, whenever I criticise Muslims, or Asian values or black Britons who do wrong. You feel degraded and treacherous when this happens.

But I still say we need to expose and discuss more openly the underpinning values of the Asian criminal rings in many of our cities. If we don't, the evil will grow. Fear of racism should no longer be the veil covering up hard truths. What the Derby gang did has planted and raised more racism – possibly even among good, benign people – than my words ever could. I am sure recruitment to extremist parties has gone up too. Prominent anti-racists know that, but will not openly say so.

The criminals feel they did no wrong. These girls to them are trash, asking to be wasted – unlike their own women, who must be kept from the disorderly world out there. The whore and the virgin are both feared and severely controlled and abused. A 2005 study in the Netherlands of Muslim males found the same bifurcation, and identified deep sexism as responsible for both.

The conversations can be heard every day around dining tables and on streets; they are embedded in thought and language. I once interviewed the mother of a man who had been convicted of repeatedly raping his young wife, who came from a rural village in Pakistan. The head of the nursery school the couple's child attended had helped the victim report what was happening. In Urdu, the mother hissed: "How lucky was she to get my son? The dirty, ungrateful bitch – went to a white woman to complain. They sleep with everybody. She just didn't know how to make him happy. We have thrown her out. She can go on the streets like those whites now."

I have been writing about these culturally- sanctioned injustices for two decades, and have interviewed countless people. I will not melt the misdemeanours into generalities, and do not accept that ethnicity and sexual abuse cannot and should not ever be linked.

As a Muslim journalist who cares deeply about migrants and their progress. Let's ask questions we never ask, to find out more than we ever try to. Do these men have any idea of normal, pleasurable, healthy sex between a man and a woman? Are they maddened by their own frustration and fear of females? I am not impugning those Asian or Pakistani men who love women, but those who are too messed up to understand what that means; maybe those whose key choices, including their lifelong partners, have all been made by families operating as firms. And again, is this the most appalling pay-back for white racism? Black writers in the US, including Eldridge Cleaver, have written movingly about some of the unconscious, vengeful urges that impel black men to take up with white partners to assert power, sometimes to annihilate the person who trusts them.

Shouting down Jack Straw, busying ourselves with warnings about feeding the BNP, are displacement activities that will do nothing to stop Asian groomers, who, from childhood have developed distorted ideas about themselves, society, females, vice and virtue. Like Samura said, it is up to insiders to examine and reveal what lies beneath these crimes. We owe that to ourselves, to our future generations, and to the country we have made ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 01:24 AM

Alibhai Brown.
Coerced marriages are inhuman yet enforcers tell me they are legitimate, the only way to keep the young confined within extended family networks, and never become 'westernised'. We know the dreadful tales of young girls and women handed over to cousins in Pakistan or to men they have never seen in Bangladesh and India. The problem is most widespread among rural Muslims, though a considerable number of Sikh families also believe their daughters should accept, without protest, husbands chosen for them. Females are goods, exchanged in transactions. Some try to escape; others kill themselves and get away that way. There is now a dedicated government Forced Marriage Unit ( FMU) which intervenes and rescues the victims.

However, as Ahmed points out, young men are also caught up in this vice. Vicious parents who believe in absolute control will not heed the choices and voices of their daughters nor sons. Tragically the plight of the men barely ever get attention and it is presumed that they collude with the oppressive system. Some undoubtedly do join in, and become masters of oppression. But there are many who yearn to be free. Today fourteen percent of cases dealt with by the FMU involve highly distressed men trying to flee from coerced marriages. There has been a 65 percent increase in reported case since 2008.

So what are the consequences of this tradition, for the men, their wives, and women outside their tight circles? Some Asian husbands trapped in loveless, dead relationships became frustrated and distorted, and, yes, as Ahmed says, prey on young white girls to grab perverse sexual satisfaction. Sex, for them, is never reciprocal or an act of consent- it is taken, from their wives and those they groom. One pimp told me in 1990:' It's flesh, halal or not. Does it make me happy? No. But I need it.' Munee was brought over from Pakistan to marry her cousin when she was seventeen. They were soon in a dark place she says:' It was like rape every time because he didn't want me and I didn't want him' She ran away and tells me he has a thirteen year old white 'girlfriend'. This in no way excuses their offences of grooming and exploitation but we must try to understand the psychological mess inside their heads which makes them into monsters.

Just as important is to look beyond the headlines generated by Lord Ahmed, at other stories.

Taher, now a charity worker, looks back with revulsion at his previous self: 'I was crazy- a young man with sexual needs married off to young virgin who was very sweet but there was nothing between us. I couldn't destroy her so would not sleep with her. That's when I started cruising with these guys looking for easy sex with estate white girls. There was one really sweet teenager whose mother was a drunk- she really got attached to me. She changed me- everybody had failed her and I was like a vulture- so I stopped all that. I still feel guilty and filthy. And I now want to help these families.'

There are also those decent blokes who fall in love with forbidden women and care deeply about their lovers but most have to carry on secretly, living in effect, tormented, bigamous lives. You might say what they do is unforgivable- indulging themselves with two women who have to oblige. But most of the mistresses understand and put up with it. Sandra, a teacher in Huddersfield, mother of two little girls whose father is Salman, son of Kashmiri immigrants. They have been together since they were teenagers. Now thirty eight she says:' I always knew that he couldn't marry me. I couldn't make him break up his family- I love him too much for that. So we have this- he has a wife he can't communicate with really, but he treats her well. And with me it's the real thing. He takes care of us. But most of the time he is so unhappy, guilty and just burdened.'

We are only now finding out that a number of Asian men run off to get away from forced marriages. Imran Rehman, from Derby tried that, was abducted, his legs shackled and locked up for two weeks. I know of other stories of savage sexual and physical abuse and emotional persecution meted out to rebellious sons. Imagine your precious rights being taken away like this by those who claim to have your best interests at heart.

Jasvinder Sanghera the brave woman who rejected a forced marriage and was made to suffer appallingly, runs Karma Nirvana, a helpline for women like her. In 2007, she tells me, they decided to support male victims too: 'So many were calling us. The terrible thing is there are no refuges for them, nowhere they can go, no provision. They are told "Marry the one we find and then play around, do what you want" They are supposed to keep up the family name, to be strong. If they disobey they are put under terrible pressure- physical and mental- their minds are played with.' Sanghera does not accept Ahmed's cultural analysis for Asian groomers, 'They are perpetrators, like the others' but agrees that in too many Asian families whites are thought to be morally corrupt and not worthy of respect.

Yet, even in the most authoritarian enclaves, you find men who courageously defy conventions and these prejudices and make independent choices. The number of marriages between Asian men and white women increases year on year- and many of the wives freely choose to convert to the faith of the husband's family and are embraced. I knew Iqbal in Uganda. Now living in a small town up north, he openly married his English girlfriend who did not become a Muslim. He tells me: 'My mum, a widow was dead against it, more worried about what other people would think rather than what her son would want. The family never met her. It's the ethos, ghetto thinking, their own ideas about honour. Said I was blackening our name. Why? Because I wanted a partner with whom I had intellectual, emotional and physical connection? That I wouldn't marry someone I didn't want and make her unhappy ' The marriage has lasted over twenty five years. Another man, Bashher an Indian Muslim, rejected the chosen bride and married Nasrin, his Muslim girlfriend. Outraged, his family cut him off. After their children were born there was an emotional reconciliation. Nasrin says their rebellion made her in-laws understand young people had rights and freedoms.

More families need to understand what their cruelty is costing their children and society. I am not hopeful. The grim news is that as the country gets more permissive and undisciplined, conservative ethnic communities seem even more determined to clip the desires of their young and make them conform to callous marriage rules. Though his remarks were stark and sweeping, Lord Ahmed was brave to unbolt community secrets and lies and to call for an honest debate on dysfunctional Asian men, their constrained lives and the harm they suffer and inflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 01:13 AM

What she said about Ahmed's statement.
"It was time, he told the British Muslim ­community, to look more closely at the ­underlying causes of the crimes committed by such grooming gangs. Time for Muslims to do more to promote UK-based marriages.
For giving an honest, informed and ­heartfelt opinion, Lord Ahmed of ­Rotherham has been assailed, abused and ripped apart by the ­religious and cultural guardians of those ­communities in a reaction that has been utterly disgraceful.
So let me say loud and clear that the coerced marriages Lord Ahmed is talking about are inhuman. Those parents who enforce them claim they are legitimate and say they provide the only way to ensure their young remain linked to extended ­family networks and prevent them becoming 'westernised'

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 01:09 AM

Alibhai-Brown.
Ugandan-born British journalist and author of Indian descent. Currently a regular columnist for The Independent and the Evening Standard,[1] she is a well-known commentator on issues of immigration, diversity and multiculturalism.[2][3] She is a founder member of British Muslims for Secular Democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 01:02 AM

What Ahmed said.

'They are forced into marriages and they are not happy. They are married to girls from overseas who they don't have anything in common with, and they have children and a family.

'But they are looking for fun in their sexual activities and seek out vulnerable girls.'

He said Asian men resort to abusing young white girls because they do not want meaningful relationships with adult white women.
'An adult woman – if you are having an affair – would want your time, money and for you to break up your marriage,' the peer added.

His comments come weeks after former Foreign Secretary Jack Straw provoked national outrage by saying that some Pakistani men look at white girls as 'easy meat' for sexual abuse.

Labour peer Lord Ahmed said: 'I get a lot of criticism from Asian people who ask, "How can you say this about Asian men?" But they must wake up and realise there is a problem.

'I am deeply worried about this as it has happened in my own backyard, and in Rochdale and Bradford.

'This didn't happen in my or my father's generation. This is happening among young Asians. While I respect individual choice, I think the community needs to look at marriages in the UK rather than cousin marriages or economic marriages from abroad.'