BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:14 PM

I'm afraid they are becoming incoherent.

Perhaps a break for tea?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:20 PM

And while we are being candid, let's just clear up this whole 'gay plague' thing. As a percentage of the whole group, gay men suffer disproportionately with HIV infection.

The numbers show that this will soon be a historical irrelevance.

One of the reasons is the smaller pool of carriers. Infection can spiral very quickly. There is no moral dimension to this. It's plain old bad luck.

The other reason is that the primary vector is penetrative sex - where the options for gay men who wish to practice penetrative sex are limited. IS limited to anal sex.

Anal sex is a more efficient vector than vaginal sex because of the greater risk of tissue damage and bleeding. Again, no moral dimension. Just mechanics.

Vaginal sex can result in the same sort of tissue damage as anal and of course, as google will tell you and as the bible, torah and quran will confirm, straight couples have always enjoyed a bit of back door action.

In healthy, clean vaginal intercourse, the transmission rate where one partner is positive is A BIT less than in anal intercourse.

If the vagina, anus or penis is damaged or sore from, say, another STI, then the risk of transmission is multiplied across all vectors.

Keith, you have claimed to be a scientist, am I right or am I right in the sense of a general overview here?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:29 PM

Royston...How can we take you seriously?
Your statement " As a percentage of the whole group, gay men suffer disproportionately with HIV infection", directely contradicts what you said a couple of posts ago

I think another siesta is called for.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:50 PM

Smeds:"I won't bore others who read this with a list of my qualifications and professional achievements (and others who have read this thread will make their own judgements about how 'semi-literate' I am)..."

More Smeds:"I wish you all the ill will in the world.
Or, as Allen Ginsberg once said, go fuck yourself with the atom bomb."

I know. You're so mad you want to stomp your feet and throw your Martini across the hot tub!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:06 PM

The point, Ake, is that you bandy about an old statistic to make a point that, in your view, gay men have deserved or brought upon themselves, or are responsible for HIV/AIDS because you believe them to be immoral or hygienic or whatever your prejudice happens to be this week.

The increasing rate of heterosexual diagnosis in the UK, the experience of HIV where it first emerged in straight populations and then the shocking STI data for young heterosexual folks in this country show your point to be as wrong as your 'evidence' is selectively misleading.

The mechanics of HIV transmission and the risky practices that straight and gay people indulge in also proves that your differentiation is futile.

But I suspect this is all too complicated for you. Anything of intellectual substance to contribute?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:09 PM

The point being made about HPV, as with other STI's, is that they are rife across the whole sexuality spectrum where safe sex is not used. I never actually brought HPV up but it, among with other STI's, are actually worthy of mention. They are all analogous in respect to sexually transmitted diseases. Whether I initiated it or not I am happy to involve the comparisons to show that STI's - period - affect all sexualties.

Just what, exactly, are the issues we are discussing here then because I am losing track. The thread went off topic, regarding the thread title, miles back and what has taken over 750 posts since then is to try and explain why this blast against male homosexuals is and always has been unfair. Human beings have sex, some lots more than others, some with multiple partners and some remain monogamous, no matter their sexuality. The vast majority here have stood up for the equal rights of all and not the singling out anyone because we are all in the same boat. We are all human.

Lets put it this way. If an openly gay couple, or a single gay male, came into a folk club and sat down next to me I would not be bothered one iota. My concerns would be about their songs, for that is what I would be there to listen to, and what their sexuality is has nothing to do with me. I would drink from the same glass or cup as they have been using. I would lend them my guitar. Whether I enjoyed their company would be down to them as people not their sexuality. Likewise if they enjoyed my company I suspect. I am far more interested in the whole person rather than one aspect of their life that has nothing to do with me. I would not consider for a moment that they are disease ridden or that being close to them will affect my health (no more than anyone else that is, as I try to avoid people who are coughing and sneezing all over the place no matter where I am!). In short, they are 'just another person to chat to, meet and listen to'. No biggy.

It's not gay men that scare me at all... They pose no threat to my health or my life by being out there around me - certainly not by being gay.

It's a new thread that is needed...

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:20 PM

"It's a new thread that is needed... "


should have read


It's NOT a new thread that is needed...


mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:23 PM

Hot tub, GfS ? Martini ? Do you get *all* your images of us faggots from re-runs of Starksy and Hutch ?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:56 PM

MP... This thread is simply a "follow-on" from the other threads on homosexual marriage, homosexual fostering, etc, the opening post runs......"Uganda is debating a law which would criminalise homosexuality, including the death penalty in some circumstances. The law is being promoted, apparently, by American Evangelical missionaries. Would any of our resident Christians and/ or homophobes care to indicate whether they find this to their taste?"
The post was designed to provoke heated responses, but as you know very well   "All we need, to allow evil to triumph, is that good men or women say nothing"..   :0)

On the other threads, we were debating the rights and wrongs of homosexual marriage and fostering, some maintaining that "rights" should be universal, some that "rights" should be conditional on the behaviour of minorities.....as in health issues, or the effect granting minorities their "rights" would have on other groups.....as in the re-definition of marriage to accomodate homosexual practice.

All these threads have basically been about whether rights should be universal, or remain conditional as they are at present.

These issues could pertain to any minority group seeking equal status, not just homosexuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:02 PM

Yes, GfS, I can admit it when I'm wrong, but I'm not wrong in this case. You are the one who doesn't dare admit that you are wrong because the whole defense you've built up for yourself is that sexual orientation is a matter of choice.

The three people I have met who claimed to have been cured of being homosexual were psychological basket cases. With them, "ex-gay" means depressed and perpetually angry. Also, all three of them have entirely given up sexual activity of any kind. And no friends, because not many people can stand to be around them for any length of time. Obviously, they have stuffed their true sexual nature back into the closet and are living in rigid denial. So much for your "cure."

You attack me on the basis of what you presume to be my religious beliefs, implying that I am a hypocrite because I don't believe in the power of God to "heal" gay people of their "aberration." Well, just because I'm a member of a church doesn't mean that I believe in an anthropomorphic God who looks like Professor Dumbledore and performs magic tricks. It's an easy enough refutation of your position if I were to simply respond, "Why would God change them? He made them that way in the first place!"

You are at odds with the medical and psychology fields with the contention, that sexual orientation is a matter of choice, and you cling fast to your hero, Richard Cohen, self-styled "ex-gay" who claims he cured himself and also claims he can cure others. His method? He lies on a sofa with his clients, strokes and caresses them, and assures them that they are, indeed, loved.

Is that the way you go about it, counselor?

You and Ake are at least partially responsible for such atrocities as the brutal torturing and pistol-whipping of Matthew Shepard, whose battered body was left hanging on fence on a country road in Wyoming, to be found by a passersby, who, at first, thought the body hanging on the fence was a scarecrow. Shepard died in a hospital a few days later of inoperable brain damage. Why was this young college student so brutally murdered? He was gay.

And the message upon which this whole Ungandan "kill the homosexuals" movement—read genocide—is based is found in Richard Cohen's book. What he says in his book is completely at odds with medical and psychological practice, and indeed, Cohen has neither credentials nor sanction by any professional organization. He's a charlatan. Yet, his book is being used as the basis for the passage of the "kill the homosexuals" laws in Uganda.

People like Cohen—and you—and Ake—spout the fictions that give psychopaths such those who murdered Matthew Shepard a feeling of justification for their brutality.

Here's your hero being interviewed, GfS. Watch it. Watch the whole thing, all 17 minutes of it.

Richard Cohen.

Further:   It's notable that both you and Ake snap onto any thread having to do with homosexuality, like magnets to a refrigerator door. You can't resist an opportunity to spread your misinformation. But why are the two of you so obsessed with male homosexuality? What this kind of obsession clearly indicates (and this is sound psychology) is that you are both latent homosexuals who are in rigid denial and can't miss an opportunity to argue, not with me and others—but with your own inclinations.

Don Firth

P. S. Okay, GoofuS, let's hear your vociferous denials, personal attacks on everything about me, and your general kicking and screaming tantrum. This one ought to be a doozy!!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:05 PM

Portugal parliament votes to permit gay marriage

By Barry Hatton

Associated Press
Posted: 01/08/2010 07:40:04 AM PST
Updated: 01/08/2010 07:40:05 AM PST

LISBON, Portugal — Portugal's parliament passed a bill today that would make the predominantly Catholic nation the sixth in Europe to permit gay marriage.

Conservative President Anibal Cavaco Silva is thought unlikely to veto the Socialist government's bill, which won the support of all left-of-center parties. His ratification would allow the first gay marriage ceremonies to take place in April — a month before Pope Benedict XVI is due on an official visit to Portugal.

Right-of-center parties opposed the change and sought a national referendum on the issue, but their proposal was rejected and the government's bill was passed by 125 votes to 99.

Gay rights campaigners applauded from the galleries, hugged and kissed outside the building and ate wedding cake.

"This law rights a wrong," Prime Minister Jose Socrates said in a speech to lawmakers, adding that it "simply ends pointless suffering."

Socrates said the measure is part of his effort to modernize Portugal where homosexuality was a crime until 1982. Two years ago his government lifted Portugal's ban on abortion, despite church opposition.

Gay marriage is currently permitted in Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain, Sweden and Norway. Canada, South Africa and six U.S. states also permit it.

The bill removes a reference in the current law to marriage being between two people of different sexes.

"It's a slight change to the law, it's true," Socrates, the prime minister, said. "But it is a very important and symbolic step towards fully ensuring respect for values that are essential in any democratic, open and tolerant society: the values of freedom, equality and non-discrimination."

Like neighboring Spain, which introduced same-sex marriages four years ago, Portugal is an overwhelmingly Roman Catholic country and previous efforts to introduce gay marriage ran into strong resistance from religious groups and conservative lawmakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:10 PM

"HPV is a false analogy.
It is likely to be transmitted equally by gay or straight penetrative sex.
It is just that men do not get cervical cancer."


Keith, you have not misunderstood.


Here is Ake's reasoning.


-Gay men risk catching HIV when they have unprotected sex with other gay men which could lead to them dying of Aids later in life,

-therefore Homosexuality for them is an unhealthy lifestyle that should be discouraged and homosexual mens rights should be curtailed to protect them.


I can apply the same reasoning as follows.


Straight Women risk catching HPV when they have unprotected sex with men which could lead to them dying of cervical cancer later in life, therefore Heterosexuality for them is an unhealthy lifestyle that should be discouraged and heterosexual womens rights should be curtailed to protect them.


In fact, both positons are utter bollocks and the answer in both cases is to use a condom.


Ake also makes out that other demographics who suffer from AIDS are distinct from Gay men and should not be subject to the same restrictions as Gay men.

But as you have pointed out, anyone may die of AIDS, which means it is not an exclusively Gay issue.

Whereas Cervical cancer is exclusive to women.


By Akes reasoning, women should have their civil rights controlled by those who know best.


Now if it wasn't for those bloody suffragettes ramming their "liberal" dogma down our throats ...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:12 PM

"MP.....Perhaps you would open a new thread on HPV, the issues seem completely different from the ones we are discussing here."

Yes - they don't involve Gays ...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:14 PM

Oops ...

"Keith, you have not misunderstood."

should have read:

"Keith, you have misunderstood."

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:32 PM

Don Froth:"Yes, GfS, I can admit it when I'm wrong, but I'm not wrong in this case. You are the one who doesn't dare admit that you are wrong because the whole defense you've built up for yourself is that sexual orientation is a matter of choice."

GfS: ALL sexual orientation?? ..like knocking up a woman, and leaving her pregnant, isn't a choice??...No, you were born that way...I guess that's what you mean.

"The three people I have met who claimed to have been cured of being homosexual were psychological basket cases. With them, "ex-gay" means depressed and perpetually angry. Also, all three of them have entirely given up sexual activity of any kind. And no friends, because not many people can stand to be around them for any length of time. Obviously, they have stuffed their true sexual nature back into the closet and are living in rigid denial. So much for your "cure."

GfS: You claimed in your post you hardly knew them, now you seem to have gotten intimate details of their life's outlook! I think you're full of shit!

You attack me on the basis of what you presume to be my religious beliefs, implying that I am a hypocrite because I don't believe in the power of God to "heal" gay people of their "aberration."


Gfs: No I didn't. I said you seemed to worship a God who is powerless to change lives...again, you're full of it!

"Well, just because I'm a member of a church doesn't mean that I believe in an anthropomorphic God who looks like Professor Dumbledore and performs magic tricks. It's an easy enough refutation of your position if I were to simply respond, "Why would God change them? He made them that way in the first place!"

GfS: You're wrong again!..Being so 'wonderfully Bible literate', you must have 'overlooked' the Gospel story, when Jesus was asked why a certain blind man was born that way.(oops)...remember the answer Jesus gave him??........UMMM fumble blather fumble...

"You are at odds with the medical and psychology fields with the contention, that sexual orientation is a matter of choice,"

GfS: Bullshit again! Some are born that way, as I described in an earlier post..and if you read your OWN post, about the guy who as he matured, and left alone to develop, he grew out of it. Oops, you forgot about that one...

"...and you cling fast to your hero, Richard Cohen, self-styled "ex-gay" who claims he cured himself and also claims he can cure others. His method? He lies on a sofa with his clients, strokes and caresses them, and assures them that they are, indeed, loved."

GfS: Personally, Dr. Cohen is not 'my hero'..He is just a person, who has had a turn around, and refutes your stupidly blind political crap, that you say is in the name of 'civil rights'. You indeed would deny anyone the RIGHT' TO CHANGE, and/or get medical treatment, based on your own PERSONAL political convictions(?)...Now just who is being narrow minded, and denying the right to even request help..and you think that the Fascist pigs, are somebody else....ya' got hoodwinked, Captain!

"Is that the way you go about it, counselor?"

GfS: No! It's all in perception...and you are indeed blind..blinded by something I find far more 'destructive' than homosexuality...and that is being a sperm donor, to a woman you deceived, and walking away from the child. You're just laundering your guilt(if you ever had the concept of right or wrong, or a conscience at all!!)...so you make excuses for everyone else to do what ever 'feels' good,..and make it so pompous, righteous, such a 'civil right'. YOU are the type of person that give reason for young boys begin to resent their masculinity!

"You and Ake are at least partially responsible for such atrocities as the brutal torturing and pistol-whipping of Matthew Shepard, whose battered body was left hanging on fence on a country road in Wyoming, to be found by a passersby,.....blah blah blah"

GfS: You are full of shit! How dare you make such a ridiculous accusation!
Your post shows beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you are irrational! I would think that a rational person would be totally embarrassed on making such an absurd accusation!...but then again, one would have to first have a dignity, to embarrass. You seem to have none!

"And the message upon which this whole Ungandan "kill the homosexuals" movement—read genocide—is based is found in Richard Cohen's book. What he says in his book is completely at odds with medical and psychological practice, and indeed, Cohen has neither credentials nor sanction by any professional organization. He's a charlatan. Yet, his book is being used as the basis for the passage of the "kill the homosexuals" laws in Uganda."

GfS: More evidence that you are a whack job! You've lost it pal, and anyone either side of this issue should clearly see that, by now. Just read your insane babbling!

"People like Cohen—and you—and Ake—spout the fictions that give psychopaths such those who murdered Matthew Shepard a feeling of justification for their brutality."

GfS: More off the wall wild, hostile, inaccurate frothing.


"Further:   It's notable that both you and Ake snap onto any thread having to do with homosexuality, like magnets to a refrigerator door. You can't resist an opportunity to spread your misinformation."

GfS: Speaking for yourself???? How come YOU are the one we find here??....spreading...ummm...what??? Perhaps your quote is revealing YOUR motive, that causes you to feel so compulsive, about the issue. Surely, your behavior toward that woman, who bore your child, and the child, could be an indication on just how much you are capable of 'loving' a woman..maybe you can't. I noticed in the post, when you went on about how Barbara was so interested in YOU, (Prop 8 thread), and all YOUR interests. You went on and on about YOU...You NEVER ONCE SAID THAT YOU LOVED HER....read it yourself! Want me to post it for you??

"But why are the two of you so obsessed with male homosexuality? What this kind of obsession clearly indicates (and this is sound psychology) is that you are both latent homosexuals who are in rigid denial and can't miss an opportunity to argue, not with me and others—but with your own inclinations."

Gosh, are you saying that homosexuals are really not as sound in the noggin' as you've previously indicated??.....Gosh, coming from you, that's quite a turn around!...but then again, you should know!


Don Firth

"P. S. Okay, GoofuS, let's hear your vociferous denials, personal attacks on everything about me, and your general kicking and screaming tantrum. This one ought to be a doozy!!"

GfS: Nope. I think you said enough to discredit yourself...all by yourself!

Happy now?.....You've got your heart's desire........all that attention!
Good Job!!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:36 PM

sigh I was hoping it would not be so, but I see now that GtS is a woman. Since I am a woman myself, I always hope to find females more empathic and less dogmatic...

(Nothing personal, guys. Some of my best friends are male. *g*)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:40 PM

There are, sadly, a tiny minority of women who hate gay men for the reason that their existence means that **even fewer men** are interested in them.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:51 PM

..yeah?...but what if I was a guy? Then what?..You mean I would be in opposition to men who act like...ummm...perhaps Don, who has treated the first woman so...umm..'uncompassionately'?....gosh, that was polite!
Then would I be a principled guy?????

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:59 PM

Actually, it doesn't matter. Principles are principles, and have no gender bias........unless you wrongly subscribe to the thinking, that there is a double standard.....(wink)
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 06:26 PM

"All these threads have basically been about whether rights should be universal, or remain conditional as they are at present."

The bottom line is this. Why should any right afforded one human being be conditional to another human being based on outright ignorance, prejudice, bigotry, hate or any other 'condition' such as being different in any way?

There is no excuse. If one human being has a right to something then they all should and vice versa. What is so hard about this principle to understand? If we are to have HUMAN rights then they should be applied to all humans.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:56 PM

GfS:    "..like knocking up a woman, and leaving her pregnant, isn't a choice??..."

Once again, you run your keyboard with a total lack of information, only your own bile. As far as my being a "sperm donor" and walking away from my responsibilities and acting "uncompassionately," she was the aggressor in the liaison. When I offered marriage, she was the one who left. She had her own agenda, so if anyone was deserted, it was me. And no, I'm not going to explain any further because whatever I say, you'll try to make something sleazy out of it, just as you already have. You don't know anything about it, so you may as well stop making an ass of yourself.

GfS:   "You claimed in your post you hardly knew them, now you seem to have gotten intimate details of their life's outlook! I think you're full of shit!"

I didn't know them well personally, but when I asked "What's with them!?" I was told a great deal about them by people who did knew them well. Simple as that. Full of shit? Never take a laxative, GfS. Your head will shrink to the size of a raisin.

Re: God. Already answered that. Learn to read.

As to my "obsession" and the reason that I am contributing to this thread, you and Ake are spreading the same kind of hate messages that Richard Cohen spread in his book—messages that allow other bigots and homophobes such as those who murdered Matthew Shepard and the "kill the homosexual" factions in Uganda to feel justified in committing the atrocities they commit. I oppose anyone who spreads that kind of hate message.

Obessed? Damned right! I'm obsessed with human decency. Simple as that. It's a cliché, but that's because it's true:   "Evil triumphs when good men [people] do nothing." So when people like you and Ake spread your venom, I feel compelled to speak out.

Don Firth

P. S. See? I said that GoofuS was going to have quite a hissy-fit over my last post. Best s/he can come up with is libelous fictions and personal attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 08:24 PM

"And the message upon which this whole Ungandan "kill the homosexuals" movement—read genocide—is based is found in Richard Cohen's book. What he says in his book is completely at odds with medical and psychological practice, and indeed, Cohen has neither credentials nor sanction by any professional organization. He's a charlatan. Yet, his book is being used as the basis for the passage of the "kill the homosexuals" laws in Uganda."

GfS: More evidence that you are a whack job! You've lost it pal, and anyone either side of this issue should clearly see that, by now. Just read your insane babbling!

You should answer this claim. Responding as you do just shows you have no answer, implying you know it's true.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:46 PM

Frotho:"..As far as my being a "sperm donor" and walking away from my responsibilities and acting "uncompassionately," she was the aggressor in the liaison..."

GfS: Aggressor??? So, she overwhelmed you???...What an unprincipled puss! Now you're blaming her?? LMAO!!

Frotho:"..When I offered marriage, she was the one who left. She had her own agenda,..."

Well, do you blame her?? She probably clocked what kind of self absorbed nincompoop, you are. I wouldn't want you around my kids either!..."her own agenda?"....

Probably went out to look for a real man....didn't she?

Frotho:"..didn't know them well personally, but when I asked "What's with them!?" I was told a great deal about them by people who did knew them well. Simple as that."

GfS: Well being such a 'champion of human decency', and a news reporter, why didn't you have the decency to ask them yourself? Lack of interest?..Too busy?..it wasn't about you??...self absorption? Report another story that you NEVER checked out the FACTS??....Sounds just like you!

Frotho:"...Re: God. Already answered that. Learn to read."

GfS: No you didn't! Who do you think you're kidding, this time??
If you think that your bit,"Well, just because I'm a member of a church doesn't mean that I believe in an anthropomorphic God who looks like Professor Dumbledore and performs magic tricks."..is an answer...its a dodge! Of course God isn't an anthropomorphic creature. According to your 'religion' , God is a spirit that gives the substance of life John 1:3-All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4:In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men...9:That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."......
...once again, what do ALL living things have in common??
The will to survive and reproduce....whether an amoeba, a plant, an insect, a fish, mammal..etc....When something interferes with one or both of those two things, and you had the ability to restore one of those two things of life back, wouldn't you do it, or direct them to the FACT that it can be restored??...and you think that is hate??? Maybe its called 'compassion'(look it up). Instead of making excuses for being so reckless in your youth, why don't you at least find out how you can help, instead of washing your hands with appeasement?..Too much effort, and compassion, eh?

Has it ever occurred to you, that certain VALUED qualities, sensitive qualities, that were damaged in people SHOULD be genetically passed down, if only they knew there was a way to get there??? You don't think, that deep inside certain homosexuals, that there is a place of deep pain, and wishing, 'if they only could...but I can't'. Now maybe I'm talking to the wrong guy, because of your LACK OF WILL to do that, but there are others, who know exactly what I'm saying! Your blathering about me hating homosexuals, is utterly complete nonsense.
When they get defensively nasty about it, I pity them, but I see hope, even if they don't, at that time.


Frotho:"......the reason that I am contributing to this thread, you and Ake are spreading the same kind of hate.."

GfS: Hate??? Bullshit again! You're the one denying them any way out IF THEY WANTED IT, with your stupid brain-lock!

Frotho:"...It's a cliché, but that's because it's true:   "Evil triumphs when good men [people] do nothing..."

GfS: That is exactly why I have to counter your disinformation, lies, and general politically biased bullshit! Funny, what is the quote.. uummm ...'Patriotism is the last refuge of despots!'...

Mousethief:"...You should answer this claim. Responding as you do just shows you have no answer, implying you know it's true..."

GfS: I shall, after I view the link,..and because you asked..okay? I just had to run, and I do now...but I will watch it and judge for myself. Contrary to what 'Frotho' says, Dr.Cohen, is not a hero of mine, and as I posted earlier, I wasn't much impressed with his methods, but, that being said, he claims to have renounced homosexuality, got married, and had children, one who went to an Ivy League university, and during the commencement speech, declared that his father was an ex-homosexual, which he says the graduate's mouths dropped open, because they were being taught differently. Those memos, which came out in the early 70's, 1973, I believe,(because I got one), were steering psychologists, and therapists that homosexuality was not going to be regarded as a psychological reproductive dysfunction....due to 'social and political pressures'!.......not science!!(<<< my accurate insertion). I guess someday, it may be 'politically incorrect' to be a senior citizen, too, the way medicine is being dictated by bureaucrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:51 PM

Thanks, GfS.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 01:06 AM

GfS, I'm not going to waste time and energy answering your tantrum point by point because anybody who reads this thread can see that you are simply raving and frothing at the mouth (which is the only "Frotho" around here).

But the lady's "own agenda" did not involve any antipathy toward me. The only "self absorbed nincompoop" around here is you.

You know absolutely nothing about my private life, and what you keep claiming about me is actually libelous and I can prove it. If you had the guts to use your own real name—as I do—I might be tempted to haul you into court and sue your ass off. But, coward that you are, you not only hide behind an inaccurate pseudonym, but you haven't even registered as a member. Even so, I could trace you down (the internet being a bit more porous than many people are aware of) and have you served with papers, but I probably won't because I don't want to dirty my hands wrestling with slime. But you really should think about the possibility. I might change my mind, haul your butt into court, and hang it out to dry.

You really out to be a bit more careful about the way you mouth off about people and things you know not of. There are such things as consequences.

By the way, do you realize just how downright bitchy your last several posts sound!???   Bloody fascinating!!

####

By the way, GfS, as to whether I'm a "whack job" or not for pointing out Cohen's claims being the basis of the anti-homosexual Ungandan laws, did you watch the video I linked to? I didn't know that the Ungandans were using Cohen's book that way until I watched the video. Maybe you should watch it and learn.

Nah! It'll never happen!

Don Firth

P. S. Hey, mousethief! Glad to see you're back! I've missed you around here and wondered where you'd got to!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 02:33 AM

lol I'm sitting here laughing - the thought occurs to me that if GtS really, truly were the therapist she claims she is she'd be in BIG trouble if the Board became aware of this thread - and others like it. lol

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 03:58 AM

GFS Said Has it ever occurred to you, that certain VALUED qualities, sensitive qualities, that were damaged in people SHOULD be genetically passed down, if only they knew there was a way to get there??? You don't think, that deep inside certain homosexuals, that there is a place of deep pain, and wishing, 'if they only could...but I can't'. Now maybe I'm talking to the wrong guy, because of your LACK OF WILL to do that, but there are others, who know exactly what I'm saying! Your blathering about me hating homosexuals, is utterly complete nonsense.

You need to get out more. Gay men and women have been having and raising kids for decades. Gay men and Lesbians enter into co-parenting agreements and artificial insemination arrangements or even do it the old-fashioned way if desires allow. Wealthier gay men go into surrogacy contracts with women. Most of the developed world now supports same-sex parenting, adoption and fostering.

So, any gay person that wishes to raise a family, can.

You see this is why I get pissed off debating with people like you GfS. You are such a shit for brains. You know nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Royston
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:10 AM

In fact, as an example of how marginalised you are, I remember in June last year I was flying from LA to Miami. There was a gay latino couple in Business with an obviously new-born bay that they were taking home.

They looked and behaved just like any "new" fathers would have done -proud, nervous, happy etc. A woman, the mother of one of the guys, was constantly clucking around them and the baby, so it became quite a spectator sport for the business cabin.

After the meal service, the cabin crew came forward with glasses of champagne for the couple, wished them all goodwill and congratulations, to which a spontaneous ripple of applause broke out through the cabin and anyone that had a glass, raised it.

I'm glad that aren't too many folks like you and Ake out there.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:20 AM

GfS - you state that certain homosexuals have "a place of deep pain" inside them and a yearning, you imply, not to be gay.

As a happy homo, I completely agree with you. And that pain and yearning is 100% (I know you luuurrrve statistics) caused by people like you. Those poor queers are tortured by self-hatred as a direct response to the external hatred you and your kind foster and disseminate for twisted reasons of your own.

As ever, all you peddle is poison. Don't ever bite your tongue, dear, you might get septicaemia.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 11:24 AM

In reality I am sure there are many homosexuals who are deeply unhappy with their sexuality, male and female. I know I have met quite a few. But I never actually heard one deny being gay. What they hate about their sexuality is all the hate and upset that they suffer struggling with being gay because of what is dished out to them or what they fear if they 'come out'. The discrimination, the rejection, the shear hate, the loss of family and friends in some instances, etc tec.

Yes, of course some try to live a 'straight life'. Some actually make a success of it. Some live terrible lies in marraiges and their partners too as a consequence. Some commit suicide. Some will never know happiness. And most of this agony is inflicted by a few people in society who would not give them breath if they could help it. A great many of those dissenters are actually gay themselves, sadly, and try to turn on their own in denial and hate. Why?

Because being gay, while easier in some countries than it used to be, is still not easy generally. There is always someone with a pointed look or glance, a comment, a thump or worse... just because you happen to be gay.

The question still outstanding on this thread by those who see homosexuality as a choice is this. If being gay is such an easy choice, why do so many men and women choose to be in such tremendous pressure ovens when all they need to do is love the opposite gender?

I suspect the mass on this thread know the answer, and in society generally nowadays, which can only be a great step forward

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 12:17 PM

"my concern is that it soon may be made compulsary."
Here we have an offensive display of a tiny group of obsessives being judgemental on the sexuality of others - really none of their business. I've witnessed thousands of cases of homophobes condemning homosexuality, even going out in gangs to beat them up, but I can't ever remember a gay criticising a hetro for being 'straight'.
It always seems to me that people who concern themselves with what goes on in other people's bedrooms must be very discontented at what goes on in their own.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 12:57 PM

"It always seems to me that people who concern themselves with what goes on in other people's bedrooms must be very discontented at what goes on in their own."

Right, Jim Carroll. I agree. One of them is in our midst flailing about; luckily he is one of only two. I think we should introduce them to each other in real time. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 02:18 PM

GfS, you've made a number of snotty, nasty-minded allegations about me based on something I revealed about my own personal life on the Prop. 8 thread. So, not for your benefit, but to set the record straight for anyone else who might be wondering what the hell you're blathering on about—

A few decades back, along with the civil rights movement, many women began taking charge of their lives rather than having their roles defined by an essentially patriarchal society. Writers such as Gloria Steinam and Germaine Greer were protesting such things as women getting paid about 70% of what men got paid for doing the same work, and generally speaking out for women's rights. Some (including some women) viewed this with alarm. but all-in-all, it was a good thing.

Among other things was the matter of marriage and reproductive rights. There were some women who did want to have children, but didn't want what they regarded as the restrictions of marriage.

Often, a woman would chose a man with intelligence and talent to breed with—someone they felt had "good genes." And that man may not be aware that he is being used primarily—as GfS so quaintly puts it—as a "sperm donor," and entered into the relationship under the assumption that it had some future to it that included him. But her agenda does not include marriage. She's a liberated woman.

So—after a time, it may then come to pass that the woman decides she wants to be married after all, especially to the man who fathered her child. But since a bit of time has passed, the man has moved on. And has married someone else. So she marries someone else. A good man and a good father, who raises the child as if it were his own.

The "sperm donor" stays away—in fact, is asked to stay away—so as not to be an interfering or disrupting factor in the newly formed family. So he bows to the situation, and accedes to the request.

Later, when the child is grown, she decides that he has a right to know who his real father is. So she explains the situation to him. Wanting to meet his real father, he contacts him, and they get together. The son is a bright lad, thoroughly understands the situation, is happy to discover that he has two families, and although the father and the son live in different countries, they manage to get together for an enjoyable few weeks a couple of times a year.

####

You see, GfS, the scenario you have built up about me is loaded with selfishness, lust, betrayal, tawdriness, anger, resentment, and general mean-spiritedness, and it springs from a mind reasonably well-suited to writing soap operas.

That says one helluva lot more about you than it does about me.

So—there's an end to it, GfS!! Get your mind out of the gutter.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 02:34 PM

An interesting tale, Don, but I fear its clarity and carefulness will be lost on poor dear GfS. In particular, your story shows how decisions about personal & sexual lives occur in particular social and cultural contexts, whereas if we can charitably credit GfS with anything resembling a coherent thought-pattern, it is a fervent belief that sexuality and sexual lives must be thought of in terms of utter absolutes, whether theological or 'scientific'.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 03:52 PM

True, Smedley.

GfS doesn't seem to grasp the concept that there are things other than raw sex involved in human relationships, whether same-sex or heterosexual. S/he seems to regard human relationships in strictly selfish, predatory, and physical terms, which would certainly make him/her a counselor I would steer well clear of were I ever in need of such service. Anyone with that kind of general outlook would do more harm that good.

I live in Seattle, where, I am told the percentage of same-sex oriented folks is about 12%, and Barbara and I are fortunate enought to have a wide number of friends and acquaintances, some of whom happen to be gay or lesbian. We know six couples (four male and two female) who live in long-term, stable relationships, and they seem to be just as close and loving as any hetero relationship. One of the men is a regular in our monthly "writers' critique" group and he and his partner are frequently guests in our home during holiday celebrations.

So it's not as if I'm viewing this from afar or making it up as I go along.

I don't think either GfS or Akenaton have the wit to grasp the idea that there is more to relationships than selfish sexual gratification (of whatever variety).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 03:59 PM

ebbie and Jim.....the remark you quoted, was from a singer and songwriter, well known and well respected on both sides of the Atlantic.

His remark may or may not have been tongue in cheek....no matter , I am proud to have him as a cyber friend

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:20 PM

"Selfish sexual gratification" seems to describe what is practiced by the vast majority of homosexuals.
Smedley has already mentioned the "hedonistic wing", but going by the health/ promiscuity figures, hedonism seems part of the culture.

I dont mean that there are not homosexuals who are monogamous, of course there are, but the hiv/promiscuity say very clearly that they are a very small minority.

All males, hetero and homo are naturally sexual predators, but the hetero lifestyle in most cases involves the production and nurturing of natural children, leading to an extended family system.
In most, but not cases this seems to work very well, keeping most of the male "animal instinct's(just slipped that in for the sisterhood) in check.

As I said earlier the homo's have thrown away the rule book....anything goes.................Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:29 PM

Ebbie posted....."sigh I was hoping it would not be so, but I see now that GtS is a woman. Since I am a woman myself, I always hope to find females more empathic and less dogmatic..."
.
Could this be the "supreme irony"........Must ask my friend Little Hawk or Mr Mcgrath.....They are the acknowledged experts   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:39 PM

"I dont mean that there are not homosexuals who are monogamous, of course there are, but the hiv/promiscuity say very clearly that they are a very small minority."

Do the statistics show that the majority of Gay men suffer from HIV?


No they don't.



"As I said earlier the homo's have thrown away the rule book....anything goes.................Ake"

And now Ake has crossed into new territory.

Whereas before he deceived to give his views an air of respectability, he has now descended into the realms of straightforward abuse.


Oh no, he's already been there, he calls Gays a scourge.


Well, in the interests of ensuring that there are no double standards,


Ake - you are a fuckwit and a closet nonce.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:41 PM

Ake says: "All males, hetero and homo are naturally sexual predators. . . ."

Need I say more about attitudes? I hope Ake is not going to now try to commit what is known as "the fallacy of self-exclusion." {"Every male except me of course."}

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:49 PM

"I am proud to have him as a cyber friend"


Well I don't want to be in your gang ...

... oh no ..

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:57 PM

Ake says: "All males, hetero and homo are naturally sexual predators. . . ."

Of course they are... by nature... same as you, Ache.

I cannot believe youse are still at this.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 05:13 PM

Exactly so gnu!......I do not exclude myself.....How their extended family is affected has a bearing on most people's sexual behaviour;

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 05:23 PM

"Exactly so gnu!......I do not exclude myself.....How their extended family is affected has a bearing on most people's sexual behaviour;"

Projection all the way.

I Exclude myself.

Many others on this site also would.


I have often heard murderers and rapists described as "sexual predators" as part of their psychological profile.

This would be to distinguish them from ordinary normal men.


Your admission fits with your fascination with your fantasies of homosexual sex and child abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 05:24 PM

Ake said "How their extended family is affected has a bearing on most people's sexual behaviour"

One translation of this is: "Hetero men are only monogamous because women & families prevent them doing what they would otherwise like to do".

Is that what you're saying, Ake ? It's an interesting viewpoint, if you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 05:31 PM

"Is that what you're saying, Ake ? It's an interesting viewpoint, if you are."


It is an admission that reveals a lot about Ake.


It mirrors his view that the only thing stopping Gay men from raping children is the law.


It makes me wonder what Ake would like to do that women and the Law won't let him ...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 05:41 PM

Holy crap.... youse had better back up and read the thread and take your assumptions much more seriously. Otherwise, Ake will make YOU ache.

I am absolutely opposed to Ake, (and I have called Ake a troll... which is a very serious accusation that I should not have made) and I just check in now and then, but, gee whiz, take the time to oppose Ake on logical, founded grounds eh?

Is Ake a male? a female? a troll? Only Ake knows (kinda... hehehehe... have fun... see you in another million posts).

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 06:06 PM

Thanks for that gnu.....thats why I've always had respect for you.

Don and Lox have simply lost the plot.....Smedley seems a reasonable guy but......if you run around with the wrong crowd?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 06:13 PM

And I asked a reasonable question, not yet answered.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 06:20 PM

Sorry Gnu,

I just thought I'd give Akes Logic a whirl.


Around 6% of men are estimated to be Gay in the UK

Thats about 1,800,000 men.

About 83,000 of these have HIV.


That makes about 4.6% of Gay men who have HIV


yet Ake concludes that "I dont mean that there are not homosexuals who are monogamous, of course there are, but the hiv/promiscuity say very clearly that they are a very small minority."


I thought I would apply the same kind of extrapolation techniques to the information available on this thread and see what "facts" I could derive.


Its amazing what you can conclude when you are full of shit.