BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush

Subject: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,282ra
Date: 22 May 07 - 04:17 PM

Our tax dollars at work

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 May 07 - 04:41 PM

Yeah, Obama said this would happen a month or so ago.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 22 May 07 - 04:47 PM

They really don't have much choice. Bush will veto anything with an end date and congress can't just zero out the funding. It is going to take some time to bring this thing to a close.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 07 - 04:48 PM

With this the Dems kiss goodbye the 2008 Presidency.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 07 - 04:49 PM

"Bush will veto anything with an end date and congress can't just zero out the funding."

And knowing that the Dems should have stayed wit a funding that allows for no escalation, let Bush veto it and be the bad guy.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 May 07 - 04:51 PM

No "SHOCKER" to anyone who was watcing closely. I was pretty sure that this is the way it would play out. If you followed the career of this legislation at all, it was obvious that the Democrats were not going to win this round. It's not exactly like the Democrats "folded." The fight isn't over yet.

Before going off half-cocked, you might want to read the salient paragraphs:

But acknowledging the political realities of the Democrats' narrow control of Congress and a White House occupied by a Republican, Hoyer told reporters, "The president has made it very clear he's not going to sign timelines (for withdrawing troops). We can't pass timelines over his veto."

That will be a disappointment for many Democrats who think they won control of Congress in last November's elections largely because voters wanted to see an end to the four-year-old war in Iraq.

Hoyer said Democrats will continue pushing for a "change in direction" in Iraq, where at least 3,420 U.S. soldiers have been killed and more than 34,000 wounded.

"Certainly we'll do it in July when Mr. Murtha's bill is on the floor," Hoyer said.

He was referring to Rep. John Murtha, the Pennsylvania Democrat who has led efforts in the House of Representatives to end U.S. combat involvement in the Iraq war. In July, Murtha will shepherd a military funding bill through the House for the next fiscal year, which begins on October 1.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:15 PM

"With this the Dems kiss goodbye the 2008 Presidency. "

Most of the country is too busy watching the finals of American Idol to take notice. With nearly 18 months to go, this will be forgotten and the Dems have a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,282ra
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:20 PM

Big deal. A house bill. yippee.

Won't get passed the Senate. This bill will get through and it will get signed. The pubs get exactly what they want and just made huge fools of the dems who may as well have dug in and shown Bush the same stubbornness he shows everyone else. But they folded. This war has just been funded for another year and Congress now has absolutely NO LEVERAGE to force this issue before the next fiscal year by which time our military will be bled bone dry. Then Congress, in desperation, will have to raise taxes to get revenue flowing and so become those damned tax-raising democrats we're always hearing about.

They've cut their own throats and I've cut my ties with them. If I wanted this fucking funding to go through I'd have damned well voted fucking republican! That's all right. I'll get the last word in 08.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:22 PM

I'm amazed at how willing some people are to give up just because the going gets a little rough.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:23 PM

And, no, I'm not referring to the Democrats!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Donuel
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:26 PM

They should have waited for the river card.


I heard Mc Cain said fuck you.

imagine what the media would be like if Hillary had said it.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:30 PM

NO politician in his or her right mind is going to say "No funding for our troops in combat!" They would be recalled in a trice or sooner.

The Dems have made their point and it's not going to go away. W will have this as a thorn in his side. Be easier simply to modify the bill giving the President authority to use force and far less of a means of political suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:33 PM

The Dems should've said "Fuck You" to Bush! Spineless bastards!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:33 PM

Click on the song at the top of the page - www.thewmds.com

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:47 PM

Actually, getting the Bush to threaten to veto something is a sort of a victory. Until now he's just signed everything they sent him, with "signing notes" stating that he intends to ignore them. And his ignorance ignoring has been powerfully done.

By not using the veto he's prevented anything from going back to the Legislature, so nothing could be contradicted or overridden.

By being forced to make a credible VETO threat, he's vacated his stance that he's the invincible "decider" who can just ignore Congress. He's admitted that Congress still matters enough to be annoying at least - which is a step toward at least a possibility that Congress has some hormones left.

John

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:55 PM

"With this the Dems kiss goodbye the 2008 Presidency."

Sorry, but I don't get this. I think everyone knows the score. I don't really see it reflecting on Clinton's or Obama's chances. Hell, the Illegal Immigration Bill is a greater threat and even that's being handed to the Democrats on a silver platter.

The Republican party is all but finished.

The next president will be a Democrat. I just wish it would have had been Bayh.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 22 May 07 - 06:13 PM

Times like these I am left wondering: "What would Martin Gibson do?"

;-)

Art

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,282ra
Date: 22 May 07 - 06:34 PM

Yeah, funny how we can oppose a war and yet come up with reasons why it must be continued. I was in another forum and the dems there suddenly turned into stay the course.

Haha. Maybe Bush was right all along then. What a shock that must have been to their systems!

But, hey, at least we got him to threaten to veto. That took guts--sort of. The equivalent of "made ya look!"

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 May 07 - 06:58 PM

Bush actually lost this round.

The Dems are stepping gingerly to avoid a clever, and evil, trap set by Bush (no, not Bush, it's too clever to have come from him).

The war cannot be won, and cannot end well. So, Bush is praying that the Dems will actually cut off funding. Then the troops come home, and Bush gets to say "I'da won it if the Dems hadn't cut-off support for the troops", AND, the Repubs get to run commercials for '08 trumpeting that "the Dems took the food off the plates of the troops and stole the bullets from their guns". The country would fall for it, and the Repubs get the Prez and regain Congress.

Instead, now, it is still clearly Bush's war, and the Dems get to say they have given Bush everything he wanted in order to win. So, they don't have to shoulder the blame for the inevitable bad end, and they don't have to campaign against a nightmare ad campaign in '08.

Meanwhile, everyone (except the twentypercenters who would support Bush if he pitchfork loaded a truckfull of puppies) still knows it will end poorly, but our people in the service are still there dying. They die as we play this political game at home. But what are the Dems to do? Do they cut off funding and ensure that the incompetent evildoers retain and regain control of the government (thereby assuring future senseless bloodshed)?. Or do they play the game and hope to truly take power in '08 and put a final stop to this evil?

It's a no-win question worthy of a university ethics class.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Amos
Date: 22 May 07 - 06:58 PM

Hell, we got him to USE his damn veto. The responsibility for continuing the war, as well as for starting it, is clearly and publically on his bloody head.


A

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Deckman
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:13 PM

I'm completly DISGUSTED with congress.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,282ra
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:16 PM

The longer we stay in, the worse our departure will be and people will blame the dems for not standing up to Bush as they were voted into office to do.

That Bush bears the blame is beyond dispute. It's not who is to blame that matters. It's who the people decide to assign blame to. The longer we stay in, the more likelihood of dems inheriting the war and ending up with the blame no matter how badly it ends and how inevitable it was from the day we invaded. Once dems inherit it, it's their baby. They'd better force an end to this war and they have no real way to do this now until the next fiscal year.

Everybody's talking about a big showdown in September but I see no reason September will be any different than May. Bush will simply demand more time be given to the surge and that if he doesn't get it, then Congress obviously doesn't care about expending every effort to win this war. So Congress will once again cave in and so on and so forth.

And before they know it, THEY own it.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Deckman
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:02 PM

I do agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:14 PM

This is the sort of problem that beset Dems in the last and the last before that elections. They are a party beginning to be seen as somewhat rudderless, indecisive and dithering. They lost votes because people stayed at home instead of hitting the polls, and I think those people could have made a difference. People ain't gonna vote if they ain't got nothin' to vote for. If there is no discernable difference between Rs and Ds, why waste the gas?

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:32 PM

So, the Dems cut off all funding, the troops come home, and what is THE issue of the '08 campaign?

No-win for anybody.

And Bush set it all up.

And our kids die.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Donuel
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:01 AM

Ron Olesko, I like the cello in the band. I didn't hear a connection to war funding though.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:32 AM

There was no connection. Just like Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:58 PM

282RA--

Republicans are no more enthusiastic about the Iraq war than Democrats. Not even Bush is enthusiastic--just desperate to be try to be able to claim "victory" again--since he knows it's his baby. However, every Republican House member knows he or she will have to run in 2008--and 1/3 of the senators. And NONE of them want to have to justify the continuation of the Iraq war. So if there is not substantial measurable progress by September, more and more Republicans will edge toward the exit. And the "benchmarks" will start having teeth---since a clear ---veto-proof---- majority will be backing them. And if there is not drastic progress in Iraq by summer 2008, no Republican now running for the presidency has a chance.

And any legislator tied to Bush will be history.


TIA explained it all above--and why. Remember, the one thing the Bush maladministation has mastered is------propaganda.



The fate of Bush and his supporters rests solely in the hands of the Iraqis, specifically with Maliki---since if his government falls, there will be no patience in the US to try somebody else. At this point it appears to be a question of how much the US can try to influence internal Iraqi politics before Bush is told to shove off.   Who knows how low the Iraqis' boiling point is--but we'll find out.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: 282RA
Date: 24 May 07 - 09:59 AM

Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Warner, Levin and the rest have now inherited the cause of this war. They have now tied themselves to Bush and his failed war.

There will be no reckoning in September, only more stalling. The pubs won't attack Bush then because the war will still be funded and so they have no reason to go into defensive mode.

And the dems will have no leverage to force an issue and all the pubs will say is, "You bastards voted to fund it so what are you crying about?"

Huge mistake on the part of the dems shame on them for ignoring the mandate of the people-the very thing they were accusing Bush of until they decided to help him do it.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 May 07 - 02:18 PM

Gross misinterpretation.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:04 PM

Will someone please answer this question?

Why didn't congress vote against the bill to fund more troops which would have forced Bush to use his veto power?

Whats the advantage to voting for more troops?

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:40 PM

Looks like no impeachments, no investigations into the fraud and thievery of contractors, no testimony from retired generals concerning the complete lack of post-invasion planning, nothing.

Looks like Bush & Cheney will get clean away with it and all the dems will do is then pick up the slack and continue this war themselves--too afraid to end it or the pubs might talk bad about them.

I tried to give Pelosi the benefit of the doubt but there can be no denying that she is covering for Bush, shielding him from his own criminal acts. And as long as Bush is safe, Cheney's safe. All the dems have done is waste time chasing Gonzalez and that stupid US attorney's thing. Who cares? What the lies, fraud and thievery that's gone on with this war??? They're not even bothering and even if they did, Pelosi would kill it.

Keith Olbermann is right--we have been betrayed!

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:59 PM

Don't make book on it.

First of all, Congress is not authorizing that more troops be sent.

Because the Democratic Congress included the timeline for withdrawal in the funding bill, Bush threatened to veto the bill. Since there are not enough Democrats (or Republicans in agreement with the Democrats) in Congress to override a Presidential veto, at that point, it became an impasse. Pelosi is no dummy. She and the other Democrats know this.

Had the Democrats persisted in withholding funding because of the threatened veto due to the timeline clause, Bush could—and would—accuse them of "not supporting the troops." And if troops subsequently had to be withdrawn because of lack of funding, Bush could then say that the Democrats lost the war because they withheld funding. Had they provided the funding, Bush would claim, he could have won the war.

And if pigs could fly, there'd be pork in the tree-tops.

Everybody, including Bush (unless he is even denser than I think he is) knows that this war has turned into Vietnam redux.

Since the Democrats could not win on the time-line issue, by removing the clause and approving the funding, the Bush administration can no longer accuse the Democrats of not supporting the troops and then blame them for losing the war.

With the attempt to pass a timeline, the Democrats have made their point. Now, by doing the only thing they can do under the circumstances, they're giving Bush enough rope for him to hang himself. It tosses responsibility for the war—and losing it—right back in Bush's lap.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:17 PM

That is exactly how I see it, Don.

The funding is only authorized through Sept. This isn't over by a long shot. Today (maybe last night) Bush said that when the surge is fully implemented (mid June) he expects combat to intensify and casualties to go up. He is in effect saying it will get worse before it gets better. He will still be singing the same tune when another funding bill comes up in Congress. Unless some R's defect the D's will be facing a very similar situation next time. Public outcry could get some R's to defect from Bush but I have my doubts if it will be enough to change the outcome. I can always hope.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:44 PM

The Dems have shown cowardice in the face of Bush's financing of the Occupation. It's not a war (Mission Accomplished, remember?)

The Dems that are running are beholden to corporate special interests and can't be counted on to make ethical judgements regarding this illegal incursion.

It's up for grabs which party will emerge. The fact that the Dem politicians have decided to go against the will of the people in the funding for this fiasco really questions their "right mind". They have funded the deaths of more of our troops.

It's not a real shocker though. It's politics as usual. Nancy Pelosi promised to "drain the swamp" of corporate control through K Street. We see where that went. Can we really trust anything candidates for either party say? (In my view, only one...Dennis Kucinich.

For the others, promises, promises. "Sound and fury signifying nothing"...Shakespeare.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 24 May 07 - 09:10 PM

$120 billion thru September is more hoodwink. That's enough for an entire year. That money will go way beyond September. Remember when Bush turned down a more reduced offer earlier that I think Murtha proposed. Because then he WOULD have to ask for more by September and he has no such intention. That's why Bush and the GOP are making so much noise about September because it is going to be anticlimactic. When September gets here, there won't be this big standoff between the White House and Congress because Bush will still have plenty of money to carry him well into 2008 at which point he will simply cease to care and will simply stall until his term ends and he's cutting the ribbon at his new library while grinning vacuously for the cameras.

So by September, Bush and the GOP are banking on the people forgetting that that was suppposed to be the watershed month--the do or die date. How many of these have we seen? And we're still in Iraq and there is still no end in sight and Bush is still getting his ass kissed when he should be a lame duck to go with his lame brain and an impeachment rap. But I think the dem Congress is more lame-brained than Bush and more ass-kissing than Tony Blair. And if they allow Bush to leave without any charges brought against him then there are even more criminal than he is.

Accept it. The Dems want this war--they want their shot at reforming the Middle East. They want to continue Bush's legacy but hope to make it their own. They've actually sentenced themselves to inherit this war. It's unspeakable.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 24 May 07 - 10:46 PM

No No No.

Read Don Firth above. He summarized it better than I could.
It's a fucking propaganda trap. Set intentionally by Bush's puppet masters. The Dems are intentionally not stepping in it.

This is not betrayal. It is wisdom. And because the troops die while this game is played, it is evil. But Bush's handlers called for the game and made the rules.

If you think the Dems should simply de-fund the troops, you are sticking your Johnson right into the bear trap, and Bush's handlers are laughing the whole way.

It is fucking evil, but we must play the game we are in.

I pray that the three I know in Iraq are not killed while the game plays out. Shit - it kills me that anyone dies in Iraq while this fucking game plays out.

Do NOT forget whose game it is.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Bill D
Date: 24 May 07 - 11:54 PM

I think Don Firth has it pretty close. The Democrats didn't have the votes to just demand Bush do it their way, so they had to seemingly 'give in', in order to keep Bush's stamp on the unholy mess.

I do wish they had said it better, though. I'd like to see the whole thing more open and explicit. I don't like roundabout plots with "gotcha" at the end, when all those young lives are the pawns on the chessboard. The Democrats have several presidential candidates who could do a decent job....but if they all throw dirt on each other in order to GET the job, the 'winner' is gonna start off at quite a disadvantage.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 25 May 07 - 02:08 AM

Don - Thanks for the explanation. I think you are probably right. Unfortunately, the Bush propaganda machine is very slick and has made it appear that Congress has no guts. I also think that it is a very dangerous game to play because the Dems could end up with the whole mess in their laps.

I'm more interested in seeing Cheney and then Bush, impeached. If that doesn't work, I would hope that someone in this wide world of ours will try them for crimes against humanity. It certainly appears that the Dems are powerless to stop this evil.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:35 PM

AHA!!

I just heard on the news this morning that the Democrats hung a rider on the funding bill that Bush couldn't refuse.

A raise in the Federal minimum wage from $5.15 an hour to $7.25 an hour.

Bush just got a dose of his own medicine.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:52 PM

If given the chance, I'd always choose Harvey Reid over Harry Reid.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:57 PM

Thats good news.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 May 07 - 02:50 PM

In September/October there will be hell to pay if Bush/Petraeus/el Maliki, et al, can't report substantial improvement in Iraq. And September is not far away.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 25 May 07 - 08:32 PM

Keep dreaming.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 25 May 07 - 09:37 PM

you can say they blinked, but its a pyrrhic victory for Bush..
the Democrats did not have the numbers to win.
However the real issue is when September comes along and Petraeus has to report on whether the 'surge' has made any progress..
and by this time there are many republicans who will want results..

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 26 May 07 - 12:23 AM

And despite the fact that the Dems made sure the Repubs could not claim that they don't support the troops, that is exactly what McCain and Romney claimed today.

Fucking assholes.

It's all politics.

What exactly are the PRINCIPLES that Republicans stand for now?

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,Jade
Date: 26 May 07 - 02:07 PM

The war in Iraq is now the Democrats' war. They could've pulled the plug but didn't. The two-headed Bush/Clinton team continues to deceive by tossing the ball from one hand to the other, while the spectators scream excitedly. The clock is running out on the US dollar, which is falling at an avg rate of 2 cents per week now, and the fans are eagerly cheering the "minimum wage hike" and anticipating the next Big Game, which the underdog Democrats will win. Everything will be great then, when Hillary is leading the charge down the field. Of course the dollar will be worth a peso by then, and there will be a "terrorist event" right after she's inserted into office with 2% of the popular vote (damn hanging chads and electronic glitches). But she'll rally the team, merge the US with Canada and Mexico and start rounding up the seditionist Christians and Republicans. She'll use the Republicans' own "caging" lists of voters to do it, and unfortunately most of the names on those lists are of blacks named Johnson, Jackson and Jones, so blacks in America will "accidentally" be purged along with the evil right-wingers, but the commentators will direct you back to the Hillary/Jeb team tossing the ball from one hand to the other, and the mesmerism will continue while Jeb is groomed for the next victory. Chelsea is warming the bench--but what's this? Is she standing up now, getting ready to come into the game? How long can these two dynasties keep it up? Stay tuned.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 07 - 04:04 PM

You are just so - what's the word? - insert word of choice here - funny. You and others like you think you are being so in-the-know and so far ahead of us naive and unsophisticated types and you don't even realize that your games are playing into the black hole of despair. And that's all it is: games.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 May 07 - 04:15 PM

I think people like GUEST,Jade are bucking for some third party. Jade either knows nothing about what's going on in the Democratic Party right now or is completely disingenuous (i.e., trying desperately to spread propaganda).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 07 - 05:09 PM

Did anyone seriously think the Dems would challenge Bush?

They voted en masse for the war for Christ sake!!
There seems to be a popular movement at grass roots level to get the troops out. The Dems could harness that movement if they really cared, but they stall and for every day thay stall another 20, 30, 100 Iraqi men women and children die....Oh yes and a couple of yanks and a Brit or two hardly out of their teens.
Stop apologising for the slimy bastards and get out on the streets.

Politicians only act in their own interests, so make it in their interests to end this slaughter.
As with Vietnam, the answer is in your own hands...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 07 - 05:31 PM

And where are your hands, Ake?

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 07 - 05:59 PM

We in the UK are in the process of removing Blair and his accomplices from power.
Popular disgust with his administration looks like leading to the break-up of the United Kingdom. Scottish independence would end "Labour" rule in the rest of the UK for the foreseeable future.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 07 - 06:46 PM

Would you agree that you inherited a different governmental system?

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 07 - 08:20 PM

All political systems are tools of manipulation.

The movement to cleanse ourselves by punishing those who led us into this situation is not in any way related to government. It is "popular" in the true sense of the word. The British people have it in mind to destroy New Labour. They have taken exception to having been coersed into supporting a lying glory hunter and know that they have the power to bring him down.

The American people should do the same, don't support the lesser of two evils.......They're both "cheeks of the same arse".....

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 07 - 08:54 PM

You have a parliamentary system. The only way we in the US could do that is if we armed ourselves and took to the streets. Violence in the name of Peace lacks a certain something.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 07 - 09:13 PM

You have succeeded before ...Civil rights for Black Americans....Vietnam....why not take to the streets to demand a voice for all Americans, not just the rich and powerful.

Your "democratic" system is a sick joke.
Evolution will bring only more slavery. Real power lies with the American people....Use it.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Bobert
Date: 26 May 07 - 09:36 PM

Ake and Ebbie,

You are both right....

Ake, what you fail to realize about ASmericans is that, unlike the Brits, they are like hampsters in a wheel... They run, run, run like rabied dogs trying to make a living... They work harder and longer than the Brits or their other European counterparts and they just don't have time to stayed informed....

But... this work, work, work, no play is the seed of "revolution/evolution" because it is eating Americans up... They fully understand they are being eaten up but haven't connected the dots yet.... But they will... America in just one Martin Luther King or Bobby Kennedy away from ***getting it***...

So right now, Dems vote on things which aren't based on ***hard inforamtion*** but what the busy Americans are being fed daily by the advertising industry, the political polsters and the media... There isn't much ***real infornation*** in any of this... Just selling, selling and more endless selling...

So when it comes down to a vote on the war, hey, it won't happen all that fast because the realities of having to find enough votes to overtuern a veto and with busy American busier than ever, it takes a little time to get the cat's herded...

Hope this makes some sens...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,Jade
Date: 27 May 07 - 01:47 AM

I'm no more in the know than the next person, Ebbie. Well, maybe a little. I'm able to feel the bone hit me in the forehead when they toss them out to us. Seems most don't. And this isn't any game. Bush may leave office quietly, may not. But don't forget that he was in office just a few months, poll numbers falling, then he got carte blanche to reshape American society after 9/11. We now have torture as national policy, pre-emptive nuclear strikes as national policy, no habeas corpus, total disappearance of anyone who disagrees with the govt. All codified into American law and foreign policy. I don't see the Democrats giving up those powers when they move into the White House. And after a few months, Clinton the Second will have her catalyzing event and all the concentration camps Halliburton has built in the U.S. the past few years will start filling up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v28b6SVK0Kw&mode=related&search=

8 minute song. Listen to the whole thing. Amazing piece of work.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,Jade
Date: 27 May 07 - 02:26 AM

Alright! Here's my favorite story of the day:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8PBKB5G0&show_article=1&image=large

An 11 year old boy brought that hog down. What a perfect example of Ebbie's "despair." Do you know, Ebbie, how many of us look forward to the invasion of America? Open season on Chinese troops, no license, no limit. Most of our troops are out of the country, so who do you think's going to enforce this "martial law" the Reps/Dems keep talking about? "Foreign assets." And it'll be a slaughter. This boy followed that beast through the brush for hours and that was just for sport. When the Chinese show up, or the Brits and their Hessian mercs return, it'll be a national holiday. They won't know what the hell happened to them.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 07 - 04:44 AM

I hear what you say Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 07 - 10:56 AM

Ake--


"The British people have it in mind to destroy New Labour"?   By putting in a Conservative in the next election? I understand that Cameron is pretty popular over there. It's not even clear that Brown will withdraw all the British troops from Iraq when he takes over in June. Please tell us when that is accomplished.

Sounds like you still have a bit of work to do there to bring the paradise on earth you have in mind.

And in the US, you might want to note the absence of a draft in this current tragedy.   Seems that might possibly have played a role in the Vietnam war unrest. Without it, large-scale demonstrations are just not too awful likely.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 07 - 11:03 AM

And that's why-- an-- airtight-- draft should be reinstated. Without it, it's just too easy for the movers and shakers, i.e. the "Deciders", to make crackpot decisions and let somebody else do the sacrificing when those plans go sour.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 07 - 11:33 AM

Don't worry, Bush will keep interfering in Iraqi interal affairs. And we'll find out where the Iraqi boiling point is.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 07 - 02:11 PM

"internal" too.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 May 07 - 02:40 PM

Reminds me, Ron, of when the Bush spoke of his "eternal general, Alberto Gonzales".

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 07 - 04:39 PM

Ron...They are all Conservatives...... Labs, Cons, Pubs, Dems, Socialists, Liberals, Communists ect ect.

As Bobert says, they all see self interest and grinding work from cradle to grave for the masses, as the solution to all the problems of humanity.
In addition to being Conservative, Mr Blair and his craven cabinet are war criminals and their actions have almost certainly assured that New Labour will never again form a government..

Regarding the US, again I find myself in partial agreement with Bobert. I dont think the US needs another Kennedy or even another Martin L King,.....what it does need is a good old fashioned "rabble rouser" someone who can inspire the downtrodden and expose the big lie at the heart of American politics.....any suggestions?....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 07 - 05:20 PM

Ake--

The Communists are Conservative? Evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 07 - 07:33 PM

The hardline Communists in the Soviet Union were VERY conservative, and the fact that they were set the stage for their downfall. The Communists in Red China are also quite conservative, but they have been playing a much more clever game economically and have learned to adapt to new situations. Liberals who are also radicals start revolutions...conservatives soon take over the new system and proceed to entrench and defend its basic values while new liberals who are also radicals conspire against them. It was not the (Russian) conservatives who overthrew Communism in Russia, it was the (Russian) conservatives who defended it.

A conservative American is the sworn enemy of a conservative Communist. They hate one another because they are, in basic nature, so alike. They both want to perpetuate an existing form of massively centralized power (communist in one case, corporate in the other) and perpetuate rule over the many by the privileged few.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 07 - 01:51 AM

Great stuff LH!!

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 07 - 03:11 AM

"...good old fashioned "rabble rouser" someone who can inspire the downtrodden and expose the big lie at the heart of American politics....." Ake

Ah, but you see, that is a development I fear most of all. A charismatic, machivelian demagogue would lead this nation into the tar pits.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 07 - 03:18 AM

Ah but ..Ebbie, the nation is already in the "tar pits"....Right up to its neck!!

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 07 - 03:22 AM

Hah. It can get MUCH worse.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 07 - 09:02 AM

Not many would agree with you there Ebbie. What with Bush at the helm and only a cowardly bunch of Dems in opposition, the present situation looks pretty hopeless if one believes in "freedom and democracy"

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 07 - 10:59 AM

LH-- Ake was talking about UK Communists being "conservative".   Hence the question about evidence--for UK Communists.

I'm aware of USSR history.   It depends on period of time you are talking about. In 1917 , I suspect neither the Kerensky government nor the Czarists would have considered the Communists conservative.


Point is not very unfamiliar--the danger of generalization.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 07 - 02:07 PM

Actually Ron, LH has my meaning perfectly.
Sorry if I was a little vague, but all politicians seem "conservative" to me.
Perhaps we need a period of non-political leadership both in the UK and the US. I was reading in todays Times that "Hanoi" Jane Fonda just received a lifetime achievement Palme d'Or at the Cannes Film Festival.
Apparently although surprised by the award, Miss Fonda was visibly moved and made an acceptance speech full of grace and humility, siting her father Henry as an upholder of justice and Democracy.

I have always thought that Hanoi Jane has it in her to inspire the American people and start them out on a new direction.
Could she be Americas "Fidel"?? I would like to think so...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 May 07 - 03:29 PM

Tar pit to quick shit, instead of growing spines which you'd expect of the Dems now that they're in the majority they seem to be having them removed in a time when they need them most. Bush being the lame duck that he is you'd think that his threat of veto would be nothing more that a little brat whisling in the wind, instead the Dems seem to think that there's a roar in his throat that carrys with it a storm. I fear that the liberal party will be no more that the 3 little pigs before the wolf. We live in a time of fairty tales & nightmares. We need much more than a King or a Kennedy, what we need is a revolutionary leader, not one with guns but with balls who thinks & works outside the box. One who'll say to the oil industry, "if you suck a resource from the people's land then you'd better be prepared to pay the people back for it". Some one who'll tell companies like Enron "if you steal the retirements of your workers you'll pay them back for the rest of your life or with you life, you chose". Where are the leaders with backbone? We vote in politicans that fall down as soon as the 1st blow comes up. I'm sick & tired of it, I'd love to see an air of change take over his nation & stand it on it's head. Fast drive a national heath care program into focus rather than the reforms we've been seeing in the past few years that have confused the hell out of folks & made matters worst. Ram a just revised tax system that doens't close the gap between the rich & poor rather than make it wider & benifit those that are supping off the lowwer classes. If it keeps up the way it's going we may end up looking for these reforms at the point of a gun rather than in a peaceful process & that's not gonna be a pleasent ride or site to see. Though that's where we may get our due
impeachments & our war crimes trials for those that are due them.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 07 - 04:00 PM

In my opinion, you guys are ignoring the obvious points. #1: The Democrats are in the majority - but just barely (51/49). #2: If the president is determined to veto a bill, the Democrats CANNOT get it passed UNLESS enough Republicans join them (There have to be 60 votes to override a veto.) So far, it is the Repubs that are being spineless, shortsighted idiots. But loyal.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 May 07 - 04:21 PM

Ebbie's point is right on.

Don't you folks ever listen to any Demoncrats on various news interview programs? That is, listen to what the Democratic legislators themselves are saying about what they're trying to do and the blocks and frustrations involved?

Apparently not!

Well, they are not giving up. Even if a lot of you folks are.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 May 07 - 04:44 PM

"Demoncrats." That is undoubtedly how Bush regards them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 07 - 04:59 PM

Don says, "Listen to the Dem legislators talk of what they are trying to do and the frustrations involved"
But Barry says it better!!    "Where are the leaders with backbone? We vote in politicans that fall down as soon as the 1st blow comes up.
I'm sick & tired of it, I'd love to see an air of change take over his nation & stand it on it's head"

I love it Barry! Thats exactly how I feel about our jobsworth politicians. They are our servants, not we theirs. Without us they are nothing....Without them we are free..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,Jade
Date: 28 May 07 - 05:06 PM

Don't you folks recall Ted Kennedy's half dozen dinners at the White House the first couple months of Bush's presidency? After each one Kennedy was smiling just a bit more broadly when he emerged. Now we see why. The neocon Republicans are Trotskyite communists who began taking over that party through stealth in the 1960's. Once Rove and Cheney explained that to Kennedy and told him to be patient, Ted was all smiles. And now, 6.5 years later, the federal government is more than twice as big as it was then (a constant of the Democrats is to expand government), there is mandatory psychological testing of school kids and forced drugging of those who have "problems" (New Freedom Initiative, a Republican act, a Democrat dream), a national I.D. card is coming (Real I.D., a long-sought-after social control device of the Democrats), the borders are wide open and illegals are pouring into the country while Bush says he'll legalize them (a WET DREAM for the Democrats, who want to destroy and the then rebuild social services). I mean, there is NO DIFFERENCE between Dems and Reps at the national level. They are ONE PARTY, and to pretend otherwise is self-delusional. And they all serve the World Bank, period. It IS time for a change, but the change won't be found within the controlled two-party system.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 07 - 05:09 PM

Y'all go right ahead and believe anything you want, if it makes you feel better. I would hate to see you feel worse.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 28 May 07 - 10:26 PM

>>Ebbie's point is right on.

Don't you folks ever listen to any Demoncrats on various news interview programs? That is, listen to what the Democratic legislators themselves are saying about what they're trying to do and the blocks and frustrations involved?

Apparently not!

Well, they are not giving up. Even if a lot of you folks are.

Don Firth<<

Who says the democrats are giving up?? Not me. I simply believe they have no backbone. That they believe they're still in the game, I'll grant you. But the reality is that they took themselves out of it and now are set to inherit the war if they take the White House--it is all but guaranteed. It's easier for them to inherit the war than it is show enough gumption to defy Bush and put an end to it. They may not have given up but I have--on them.

There really is only one party with one agenda and if there isn't, there might as well be.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 May 07 - 11:28 PM

Speaking of "backbone."

The first "Backbone Award" given by this organization to a legislator for sticking to his principles was awarded to my Congressional Representative, Jim McDermott, Democrat from Washington State's 7th legislative district.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 07 - 11:47 PM

Ake--- "Without them we are free"

Mind translating that into reality?


It certainly is fortunate there's no election in the US right now, since it seems a lot of the "politics must be purified" believers would sit home. And there are probably still enough voters of sentiments close to those of Dickey that--frighteningly enough--Bush would be re-elected.


Sorry, people, politics is still the art of the possible. I mean even the Stones told you--"You can't always get ....

And as I've said before, as far as Iraq is concerned, at this point it's only a question of how much attempted manipulation by Bush the Iraqis can take--where their boiling point is--and therefore when they tell Bush to shove off.

That will tell the tale--what Congress does or doesn't do is basically irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 May 07 - 03:03 AM

Just listen to yourself, guys. If things are as bad as you think, what is the solution?

If it weren't for people like Don Firth and Ron Davies and a number of others whose judgment I trust I'd be long gone. In more ways than one.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 07 - 03:13 PM

The Dems have at least one thing to be proud of. They have succeeded where Bush failed...In breaking the spirit of a fine woman and mother.

Mrs Sheehan has decided to give up her campaign to bring the troops home from Iraq, saying that Democratic "friends" who promised her support, turned away when attaining a position of power.

Why don't you people take a hard look at your political system. you are being screwed big style.
Democracy really is worth fighting for, forget the Middle East, the battleground is the United States of America...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 May 07 - 04:20 PM

The Democrats gave it a try, but

they did not have the numbers.

There was nothing they could do about that. It's a matter of what is possible. I have already explained that above. Or did you both not read it and sleep through your high school civics classes? There are people here who have no grasp of political realities and if they don't get what they want yesterday, they throw a tantrum and blame those who tried their best for failing because, through no fault of their own, they simply didn't have the votes.

Okay, folks! So you're convinced the Democrats have failed you. What's your glorioous plan? Bloody revolution? That would sure save a lot of lives. . . .

It's not over yet.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:14 PM

It is not a matter of what is possible!...It is lack of will and a good measure of self interest.

These people voted for the war. They would rather see countless thousands die than loose face.
Because they supported the invasion they do not have.... nor do they want the moral high ground.....In short, they don't have the balls to fight Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:22 PM

"It is not a matter of what is possible!"

Are you suggesting that they ought to have done the impossible?

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 29 May 07 - 06:06 PM

All this talk of they didn't have the numbers is a lie.

They could have kept on sending Bush the same bill until he either signed it or gave up and brought the troops home--he had to do one or the other because he was running out of time. It was that simple. THEY WERE BEATING HIM!

But then politics entered the picture and doing what was morally correct and what they were voted into office to do went out the window.

All I hear from them is: "I don't want it to look like I don't support the troops." Oh, so you're more concerned with your image than bringing our people home so no more have to die or come back armless or legless or with their faces and fingers melted off.   That's SO brave! SO laudable!

What kind of support are we talking when we give Bush money to keep those guys over there!! If you support them, you declare the war unethical and illegal and YOU BRING THEM HOME!!! And you do it whatever way you can and if that means sending Bush a bill you know he'll veto then so be it. It was Bush running out of time.

Now he has a reprieve and a clap on the back of approval from the democratic Congress. All the while they whine and cry, "I didn't want to give him that money! Boo-hoo-hoo-hoo!" THEN DON'T FUCKING DO IT!!!!!!! What the FUCK?????????? What kind of people are these????

Why were they even bothering with the charade of sending Bush time tables if they had no intention of sticking to it???? What was the point?? To look stupid and spineless in front of the whole fucking world??? Because that is what they accomplished. They certainly got nothing else out of the deal other than their minimum wage hike--boy, they sure showed Bush on that one, didn't they?

They don't even have the balls to do what is inevitable anyway--chalk it up to a loss and bring em home.

I will NOT vote democratic in '08. We may as well have a republican president and Congress. At least I know what to expect from those sons of bitches. At least when they plunge the knife in, it's sticking out of my chest.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 May 07 - 06:14 PM

Take a deep breath...

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 07 - 06:47 PM

Dont take the piss Ebbie...282ra is right. While these scumbags look after their image, thats the blood and guts of women and children lying in the streets.

And we are all involved in the spilling of that blood.

This is not an exercise in political rhetoric, its really happening and its getting worse...100 Iraqi dead today,10 American kids slaughtered, 5 Brits captured, perhaps to be publicly executed..5 mothers sons..is it any wonder 282ra posts an emotional message.

The time for being cool is long past...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 07 - 07:13 PM

Would Pelosi become President if both Bush and Cheney were to be impeached?

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 May 07 - 07:29 PM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 07 - 07:32 PM

Maybe the Dems aren't so bad after all.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:07 PM

No. :)

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:08 PM

I agree, the Dems should've sent him back the bill & told him to veto it if he wanted but he shouldn't gotten his way without a fight, not even a wimper. They laid down on the floor & let him walk on them, in my view.
It's no wonder Cindy threw in the towel. I'm just as sick as she is & I didn't even lose a kid.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:10 PM

In truth, I agree with you, Barry. I have begun to see the Democrats as another facet of the same stuff the Republicans are made from. They will cater to big money interests and screw the 'common' people who voted for them.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:18 PM

But, they too will throw a few bones.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 May 07 - 10:26 PM

It's not so damn simple. Do you stand up to Bush now on principle, and hand the Whitehouse and Congress to the bloodthirsty Republicans? Or do you take the longer view, and take control of the executive and legislative branches in '08, and put a final stop to the madness? It's Sophie's choice. While we play the political game, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, etc. DIE. Who called for this game? Who sets the rules? Do you opt out of the game on principle, and probably lose? Or do you play the fucking evil game by the rules these jerks have set, and hope for an all-out win in '08? It may be an easy answer for some. But, not for me. And I've got people there. As do many of you I am sure.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 29 May 07 - 11:51 PM

>>Do you stand up to Bush now on principle, and hand the Whitehouse and Congress to the bloodthirsty Republicans?<<

As long as the war is over, I don't care.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,Jade
Date: 30 May 07 - 12:43 AM

Seems someone missed the obvious here. The congress CONTROLS THE PURSE STRINGS. The congress FUNDS government actions in the U.S. The congress is under control of the Democrats now. They VOTED to continue the "Republican" wars. The Democrats have NO plan to end the wars. They are going to EXPAND U.S. involvement in wars around the world (poor Darfur, poor Sudan). Wake up. The Democrats and the Republicans both serve big buisiness and big government. They are the two hands of Moe, slapping your Larry face this way and that so you can't get a fix on things.

The elected leaders in Washington have sold out America. They are working AGAINST our interest. They are guilty of treason. They need to be dealt with. I HATE the stinking ChiComs, but they have the right idea on this:

China has stunned observers by announcing that the ex-head of the country's drugs regulatory agency has been sentenced to death, having been found guilty of taking bribes when approving drugs.

Zheng Xiaoyu, former head of the State Food and Drug Administration, has been convicted on charges of taking bribes and dereliction of duty by the Beijing Municipal No. 1 Intermediate People's Court, according to the Xinhua news agency. The court was quoted as saying that "Zheng was supposed to use the power given to him by the state and the people seriously and honestly, but instead he has ignored their vital interests...this has threatened the safety of people's life and health and has caused an extremely bad social impact".

Zheng, 62, who was expelled from the governing Communist Party in March and removed from the SFDA post in June 2005, had been accused of taking bribes totalling more than $830,000. The bribes, which included cash and gifts, came from pharmaceutical companies, notably the Hainan Kongliyuan Group from South China's Hainan Province. He has the right to appeal the decision.

It had been claimed that the latter gave Zheng bribes, which included paintings, in return for SFDA approvals on 277 medicines, more than 100 of which were granted in 2005, and the heads of Hainan Kongliyuan have also been detained for investigation. During his time at the helm of the SFDA, dozens of Chinese died as a result of dangerous drugs and foodstuffs and in 2004, at least 13 babies died of malnutrition in Anhui province after being fed counterfeit milk formula.

The news, and particularly the severity, of the sentencing has taken many by surprise, and is seen as a strong message from China that the corruption which has been rife in the country's healthcare system will no longer be tolerated. The Communist Party investigated 2,755 bribery cases in the health sector in 2006 and almost 700 health staff were sentenced on charges of corruption or punished " according to Party or political disciplines".

Meantime the SFDA has announced plans for a nationwide campaign of drug safety inspections which it will see 90 officials being sent to 15 provinces over the next two weeks.

http://www.pharmatimes.com/WorldNews/Articles/10937-china-execution.aspx?src=WN

Only mass executions can root out the traitors in Washington. Nice, orderly trials, then mete out justice.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:34 AM

Here in the UK, there is an election in progress to chose a new Deputy leader for the Labour Part. Gordon(Macavity) Brown has already been appointed to take over from Blair as Leader.

There are six candidates for Deputy,all voted for the war and most continue to support the carnage that they instigated.

To see these people wriggle and squirm when interviewed on BBCTV,was one of the most disgusting spectacles I've witnessed for some time.
No one assumed any responsibility, but tried to say "At the time everybody believed there were WMDs", convieniantly forgetting the millions who marched against the war.

The guilty people both here and in the US will never take responsibility, so we will never see justice done, but this episode should teach us something about the nature of politicians.

Too many people on this forum still believe in the "tooth fairy"..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:59 PM

Again: What do you propose as your solution?

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 May 07 - 03:03 PM

So long, folks. I think I'll bow out of this discussion.
I'm feeling a great wave of déjà moo*

Don Firth

*The distinct impression that I've heard all this bull before.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:31 PM

Come on Don you've been apologising for the Dems as long as I can remember.
Maybe your exit is because you've run out of excuses...:0)

In the UK the parties are being forced to examine how they fund themselves. Blair's "cash for honours" scandal could mean a loss of finance from rich donors
In the future, the amount of money each party is allowed to spend on an election campaign could well be capped.

Is there really no one in the American political system who speaks for the poor?

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:46 PM

"Is there really no one in the American political system who speaks for the poor?"

In a word, no.

I overstate the case, but not by much. In order to get high enough in the pecking order to be able to get anything done you need to have loads of cash. The poor are not in a position to give you that cash so they have no favors to call in.



I still don't think the Dems could have done much more in this round of the fight. I think this is unfortunate, but there you are. The U.S. is in a serious mess and it will take a lot of time and maneuvering to get out.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:13 PM

There were other options for the Dems. They could have insisted on timelines. They could have said "no more money". They could have just said nothing and move on to another issue and let Bush pay for the occupation.

The Dems talk big about what they are going to do. In the meantime, the blood of more US troops, and Iraqi citizens including women and children are on their hands. It could mean 700 more American troops will die including great numbers of Iraqis.

And believe me, the soldiers in the field know what the Dems did. Many feel betrayed.

Shame on those Dems that voted for this appropriation and I don't trust their empty promises because they didn't deliver on what they said they were going to do, represent the will of the people and stop this insane occupation.

Just wait, those Dems will deliver more political bullshit.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 May 07 - 10:43 PM

ake, I'm not making "excuses" for anyone, and when it comes to that, I owe no particular allegiance to the Democratic Party.

I do know, personally, two Democrats who are in office:   Jim McDermott, the Congressional Representative from Washington State's Seventh District (which includes Seattle), and Jamie Pedersen, who has just recently been elected to the Washington State House of Representatives. Jamie is young, and very much a fledgling politician, but he's well aware of the statement, "Politicians are like nails. They go in straight, but the usually come out crooked," and he's determined that this isn't going to happen to him. He's solid, and I think he'll make it okay. And Jim McDermott, very progressive, has always been straight with the voters, and has also been a royal pain in the ass to the Bush administration since this whole Iraq war was first planned. The guy is rock solid!

So this crap about all Democrats being nothing but clones of the Republicans is just that:    crap!

I just get sick and tired of people who get their giggles by leaping into the Slough of Despond and whining that "The world is going to Hell and there's nothing anyone can do! Oh, woe! Oh, woe!" Among other things, it provides an excuse for said whiners to do nothing and just sit around wringing their hands. And posting to internet forums.

While all this moaning is going on, I'm out there keeping in touch with politicians, following their voting records, and leaning on them very heavily.

And I don't feel like hanging around this thread and wasting my time to argue with people who have given up and just keep posting variations on the the same old snivels. I prefer to spend my time more productively, such as letting by thoughts be known to folks like McDermott.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 07 - 02:30 PM

Don I believe you are sincere in your views, but the question is a simple one. Why oh why did the Democrats not leave the ball in Bush's court...As Guest 282 ra said right at the beginning of this thread, their actions mean that they will in all probability inherit a war which they massively voted for.
They have also given Bush carte blanche to continue the war into next year. By withdrawing their bill, they make it clear to the world that the representatives of ALL the American people support this madness.
Also, you dont address the continuing slaughter which is being exacerbated by the presence of the invaders....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 31 May 07 - 04:13 PM

It is a simple question
"Why oh why did the Democrats not leave the ball in Bush's court...?"

And there is a simple, and principled, answer.

A) they could not leave the ball in his court without a veto proof majority which they do not have for another 1.5 years.

B) to do so (only symbolically mind you - see A above) would turn over all of the keys to government to exactly the douche bags who got us into this mess - not just for the next 1.5 years, but for the 4 or maybe 8 or ??? after that as well.

Simple question. Not so simple answer.

I believe that by following this course of action, they have not only left the ball in his court, they have superglued and bolted it to his forehead. Now, he cannot claim that he was not given everything he asked for to "win" the war. It's a shit game we are playing, and people are dying while we play it.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 May 07 - 04:27 PM

If the Democrats had not backed off on the timeline part of the bill, Bush would have been forced to veto it as he said he would. Then Bush would claim that he could have won the war, but since the Democrats denied him the necessary funding, it's their that we lost. And that would be one helluva campaign issue in 2008 (which, I believe, is what TIA just said).

Do you play chess? If so, do you know how to set a trap? And can you recognize a trap when you see it?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 07 - 04:47 PM

I understand the point you are both making, but the Democrats are supposed to be representatives of a large section of the American people.
All polls show a massive popular movement against the war and none of the political parties seem to be reflecting that movement.
Once again the people are being let down by those who should be leading them...as was Cindy Sheehan.
"Lions led by donkeys"

If the Dems were confident of their position regarding their voting record on the war, they would be able to harness that anti- war sentiment ,impeach Bush and bring this madness to a speedy end...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 07 - 04:58 PM

"If the Democrats had not backed off on the timeline part of the bill, Bush would have been forced to veto it as he said he would. Then Bush would claim that he could have won the war, but since the Democrats denied him the necessary funding, it's their that we lost."

Surely everyone by now...even in the darkest depths of America, realises the war is un-winnable. In fact irretrievably lost.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 31 May 07 - 05:56 PM

Sadly, even on matters where Americans should be dead certain, they are easily swayed by the demagogues. I am more ashamed of our minute attention span and vast apathy as I am of the President and his party who have learned to exploit these traits...oh wait, Survivor is on, gotta run.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 May 07 - 06:06 PM

If your are going to adequately represent the American people (actually get the job done, not just posture), you have to use some tactical sense. And, believe me, not everyone knows the war is already lost. There are lots of people out there who believe that it can still be won. Appalling, but true!

By passing the bill, the Democrats have given Bush until September. If things don't improve by then (from Bush's viewpont), the Democrats will have the next election pretty well sewed up.

Checkmate!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 07 - 07:34 PM

Don... I am sorry to say this,but the game you seem to be advocating is being played with peoples lives.

If the election of a Democrat administration in 2008 were to signal some great "wind of change" blowing through American politics, them the loss of these Iraqi men women and children as well as the deaths and mutilation of our own young men, might....just might be worth while...But the odds on political change are just too long for me.

Thousands more will be sacrificed to no good purpose....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 May 07 - 07:54 PM

Not true. The Pentagon has other financial resources they can draw on to continue the war with, but they don't want to use them. Cutting off the funds will not end the war right away. Not before September anyway, when the budget bill comes up again.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:36 PM

There ain't nuthin' but bad news Don.

Some day soon that ole giant he's goin' to wake up and the Pubs and Dems are goin to find themselves way out off the political map...

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 May 07 - 09:03 PM

Predictable. Knowing full well that nothing is going to change by September, they're already preparing their excuses.

Incidentally, Rep. Jim McDermott (Dem) voted against sending the budget bill on without the time-line. So did Jay Inslee (Dem.), also from Washington State.

As I said. Not all the same!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 May 07 - 09:13 PM

Today's news has a development that is hopeful... The Sunnis have risen up against al Quaeda and have asked for coalition help. It would be wonderful if the killing stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 May 07 - 10:13 PM

Ebbie--I think that's only in Anbar. Do you have more info?




Another development, per the Wall St Journal, is that a Sunni police chief who had been praised by US forces has been arrested for alleged murder, corruption, and crimes against the Iraqi people.

It will be interesting to see if there's actually any evidence supporting these accusations.