BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?

Subject: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:35 AM

Nowadays, it is considered important that people are aware of their cultural heritage, regardless of whether or not they are living in the country from where their culture originates. For instance: a Chinese person holding onto their chinese traditions despite the fact that he may be a 4th generation chinese person living in the West. It is an important part of multiculturalism.

However, is it so important? Should we perpetuate differences in a cosmopolitan society? Would it not make more sense to play down differences?

What does everyone think?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:48 AM

I like the differences. A stew is better than a puree.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:49 AM

I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the question and how we are supposed to answer.    The first paragraph makes a statement that we are supposed to agree with. Well, who is saying it is important to "hold on" to old traditions?   Why does this make it an important part of multiculturism.

Perhaps the question depends on where you live. Here in the United States we have a long tradition of "multiculturism" - good and bad. I think everyone, regardless of what generation they are, has some sort of interest in their heritage - and individual traditions that they maintain.

Traditions are "living" events and customs. Traditions change with the time - they are not meant to be looked at on a shelf.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:51 AM

"A stew is better than a puree. "

WHAT? You make it sound as if someone needs to choose one or the other. Isn't there a time and place for both?   You can enjoy a stew and still have a need for a puree. One does not exclude the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Stu
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:52 AM

Definitely important, as cultural heritage plays a very important part in how a person sees themselves. In a tolerant society these cultural differences add the vibrancy and depth of the community, both national and local.

Problems start when exclusivity or intolerance raise their ugly heads.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:53 AM

I was taught: Name it, claim it, then move beyond it. Each part of that continuum mnatters, and it doesn't always happen all at once. Each part of one's culture and life experience come up in their own time, and can be handled with this approach. The more you do it, the more you can embrace (and relate effectively to) other cultures.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Charmion
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:57 AM

As a seventh-generation Canadian (starting from the Conquest), I received a thoroughly puréed cultural heritage full of bits of Burns, large lumps of Shakespeare, shreds of voyageur songs and a whole lot of Anglican church music, all liberally garnished with Yiddish-flavoured pop songs, boogie-woogie and Eric Clapton. To that, I have added rather a lot of barrack-room ballads, diddly tunes, hangin' songs and the oeuvre of Johnny Cash.

And yes, some of it is very important, but never the same stuff two days in a row.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 11:00 AM

Don't think so. My family were Dolans from Dublin crossed with Travers - a Gypsy Family from somewhere up country in Ireland. I can't recollect anyone dancing jigs round the breakfast table or getting out the pipes for a few slow airs before bedtime.

No one ever went to Ireland, evinced an interest in going back there, checked on the hurling scores, dropped the occasional 'begorra' into the conversation.

I think we became English.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 11:11 AM

The easy answer is yes, one should hold on to one's cultural identity. The hard question is to what extent one should.

For a country to remain strong, there must be some assimilation as to common language, acceptance of the national legal system, and adoption of the country's history and mores.

Within that framework, one can speak the mother tongue, wear traditional clothing eat traditional food, etc. when amongst themselves. They could also have a grounding in the history of their heritage. They can, and probably should also share those things with society at large.

However, the laws and customs of the current country should trump parochial concerns.

In the US this had been the norm until the last 30 or 40 years. There was a tension between the traditional and assimilation that served the country very well. This, sadly, seems to not be happening quite as rapidly now.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 11:32 AM

The things about my cultural heritage that are important are a love and respect for language, a respect for history and the hard trials of the American experiment, and the values of Jefferson. Additionally the attitudes of the best of the New England settlers, the western expansion pioneers, and the best humanist tradition of men like James. A courage and curiousity about making things better, a sense of adventure, and an interest and respect for basic humanity wherever found.

The things about my cultural heritage that I would drop in a New York second are jingoism, chauvinism, a peculiarly American brand of assertive ignorance, provincialism in political theories, trickle-down Keyesian economics, materialist psychological stunts, and an unreasoning lust for winning lucre. Also the widespread desire to bamboozle for profit, and the embrace of mindless entertainment as a substitute for individual betterment and rational thought.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 11:41 AM

There is a huge difference between culture and values. Some of the issues that Amos mentioned are not representative of the culture that ones heritage has created - they are universal.

While some cultures may have embraced certain values in the past, that does not mean it should be embraced in a different time and place.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 11:41 AM

Here's an interesting perspective from Simone Schmidt of the Canadian Band One Hundred Dollars ...

"The conflict in Canada is always posed as, 'We have no national identity,'" says Schmidt during a recent interview in Toronto. "People have been hooked on that for about 40 years. [But] we have to realize we do have a national identity that we don't necessarily want to embrace. There's a range of things that come up when you love a place, just like when you love a person. It's like writing a love song – you have to be critical and embrace the things you don't love in the hopes of changing them."

As per my own cultural heritage ... it has very little impact or importance on me personally, and I find it more so as I get older ... but I do appreciate the cultures of other people in my community .... if not for the exposure and exchanging of different foods, music, languages and philosophies ... the weaving of all of these differences creates a wonderful, beautiful tapestry.

All cultures change and evolve with the exposure to new and different cultures.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 11:57 AM

Ron Olesko, in any good stew you find quite a bit of puree. That's us.

As for my own culture: I was born 'white', of German/Swiss extraction and in the "old country" I no doubt would have been labelled 'peasant'.

None of that is as meaningful to me as my Amish heritage. Although I left it long ago, it formed my thinking, opened my mind and heart to embrace the contradictory facets of differing views and allowing me to be able to value both the good and the counter-productive.

As I once wrote in a song:

"A good man's not always right
Nor the bad one always wrong"

( sheesh. Don't mean to sound so moralistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 12:06 PM

I think we are on the same page Ebbie. Thanks for the clarification.

The Amish heritage is a good example- the roots are Swiss but the traditions and culture developed as the group developed in this country and Canada. Even among the Amish there are different cultural traditions that vary from group to group, and the heritage has influenced other cultures as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 12:12 PM

Some cultures raise some values to the heights of importance where others slight the same values. They are surely the skeleton of any culture, on top of which the arts, trades, ceremonies and linguistic idiosyncracies are built. So I submit that the values I mention may be universal but their particular emphasis is cultural.\

A

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 12:12 PM

That all depends to what degree it is exploited, and to which ends.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 12:26 PM

I disagree Amos. The values that you suggested are traits that individuals choose to adopt. You cannot stereotype that Americans share those cultural beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 12:35 PM

I was talking about the variant of culture that I considered my heritage, not that of any other American; I don't believe there is a single package you could call "American culture", nor do I think that is what the question calls for.

Many Americans share many of those values. They are part of popular sterotypes about the founding of the country, in some case, for example, and they are often embedded in the myths that get taught about Davy Crockett, Thomas Edison, Jefferson, Paine, Tesla, LEwis and Clark's crew, and other icons of the stereotype.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 12:43 PM

Fellas,

The thread asked for a colleciton of individual experiences, not a debate about the early details. Let's pause to let a few more individual views come in without distraction, huh?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 12:51 PM

The key word here in my view is identity.

I've had conversations with numerous people of numerous cultural and racial backgrounds on the whole subject and that seems to be the defining ground upon which this discussion is set.

Who somebody is is made up of a plethora of factors, including their racial/cultural/religious/national roots.

I grew up in HK but was born in Dublin and grew up in a very culturally Irish home.

I enjoy a good game of footie or rugby on the box, but when Ireland play, my blood boils, my adrenaline flows, my heart goes into overdrive and I go into a cold sweat.

At school, I was constantly reminded, often in derogatory terms, that I was Irish, and so I was defined as such externally as well as internally.

When I came back to live in Ireland, I was instantly accepted as an Irishman without any question despite my plummy colonial British accent.

Yet when I came to England, I was told I was a plastic Paddy, meaning that I liked to wear the colours and drink guinnes on St Paddy's day, but I wasn't a true Irishman.

Recently, I have discovered a new term for those whose cultural upbringing is not consistent with that of their ancestors.

3CK (third culture kid)

I am definitely one of these.

There are many of us around and often we have more in common with each other than with those from whom our cultural heritage stems.

And by that I mean that a 3CK sri lankan who has grown up in Japan will generally feel much more empathy for a frenchman who has grown up in argentina than he will for another sri lankan.

Its something to do with transcending ones prescribed cultural identity in discovering ones own cultural weaknesses in the context of growing up in a different culture.

I am Irish in my heart, but my home town is Hong Kong. I love the old songs about dublin in the rare old times, but I miss the cool evening tide in Shek O and the bustle of Wan Chai and Tsim Sha Tsui.

Both live in me and are at the centre of my identity.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:09 PM

similar sense of cultural displacement and unfocused,
ill-defined, identity
for so many Brit 'working class' council estate kids who passed
the 11 plus and were 'socially engineered' through grammar school and higher education..

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:30 PM

sorry, debate is part of my culture!!!! :)

I see your point Amos - and I agree that there is no single "American" culture.

I do have to say that some of the values that were taught to us, even if they were myths, have some validity and importance. Unfortunately there are many who take advantage and go to the extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:40 PM

And yet there are many who say there is or should be no English culture and that they who value it are racists.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:42 PM

"and I agree that there is no single "American" culture."

Wouldn't the cultures of the indigenous peoples of the America's count as a single American culture??

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:45 PM

"Wouldn't the cultures of the indigenous peoples of the America's count as a single American culture??"

If we had a single indigenous people then it would, but we do not. The cultures of the various native American groups differ greatly.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 01:53 PM

I am a grandchild - or perhaps victim is as good a term - of the great assimilation push of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. That is, six of my eight great-grandparents were immigrants, from England (2), Germany (2), Ireland and France. (The Brooks family immigrated in the 1640s.) However, none of my grandparents grew up knowing anything in particular about the countries of their ancestry, and certainly nothing they thought worthy of being passed along to my parents (who were born in the 1920s). No language or dialect, no tidbits of culture, no food, nothing.

My wife is much better off, since her grandparents were the immigrants (one set from England and one from Russia) rather than her greats. Being one generation "newer" makes a big difference. She grew up with stories told by her greatuncle Arthur, who was supposed to have been in the orchestra on the Titanic until the last minute and by her grandmother, who spoke three languages (broken English, broken Russian and broken Yiddish). She cooks both hamentashen and Yorkshire pudding.

We tried to raise our two daughters to at least recognize that they had a cultural heritage other than American, and we do have some hopes. One has red hair and green eyes, and won a "most Irish looking" competition in Milwaukee once. She married a red-haired, blue-eyed Panamanian, and we have a 10-day-old granddaughter who will, at a minimum, be raised bilingual.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 02:00 PM

BiLL, I live in Indian Country and know rather a lot of members of various Indian nations (and yes, what they call themselves, as a lump, is usually Indians). The Pueblo people of New Mexico would deny, vociferously, that their culture resembles that of the Seminole of Florida or the Yakima of Washington, and even more so that of the native peoples of Central or South America.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 02:16 PM

I'm aware of the many cultures that make up the indigenous peoples of America .... which makes me think that many cultures are not related specifically to a country (per say) ... the same could be said for many countries ... so our cultural heritage cannot be determined or lumped into just a country.

Just something to think about here when we try to determine what makes up our cultural heritage.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 02:19 PM

To add to the mix: The indigenous peoples of Alaska also differ greatly; they have different languages, diets, different facial and bodily characteristics, different histories, myths and religions,   even different climates.

To name a few of them: the Aleuts, the Yup'ik, the Inuit, the Tsimpshian, the Tlingits, the Haida. That isn't all of them, either.

And that's not to list the many moities, tribes and clans within them.

I can't imagine how one could possibly lump all the indigenous peoples in the USA into one pot.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 02:39 PM

Yes, it's important.

The English have been made to feel that in speaking with love about their country, they are racist. I think it's a very dangerous road to go down, and to be honest, it's one that appears to have played right into the waiting arms of the BNP. It's a problem that seems to be unique to England, and it's a problem that needs to be sorted out.

Culture is constantly changing, but some things stay the same. Those things that always remain, such as history, should be taken great care of, because in losing your history, you lose your ancestors and all that went with them in making the country they lived in and loved.

But to not be allowed to feel pride for your country, other than in sport, to almost be denied being allowed to talk about it or rejoice about it, is hard, very hard. And to hear nothing but bad about your ocuntry is even worse.

As can be seen in other threads, to love England these days is now almost a crime to some people. I do not understand why.

Lovely posts from Amos and Lox by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 02:49 PM

According to Stephen Pinker, "The Blank Slate", cultural traditions advance the level of education and knowledge when they interact and are not isolated geographically.

Cultural heritage is only as important as it defines your personal journey but to stay in
that and not recognize others' cultural heritages is destructive to personal growth.

The best explosions in music have been when musical cultures collide such as in jazz,
most folk music (unlike the popular conception that it is isolated), classical music and other
creative forms including rock, r and b etc.

When the palette is larger, the pictures are often richer.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 02:52 PM

"The English have been made to feel that in speaking with love about their country, they are racist. "

From the outside looking in, I don't think that is the case. I think the problem is that in your country, like in ours, there is a strong anti-immigration sentiment that comes across as racist. There is nothing wrong to love ones country, provided they do not do it an the expense of someone elses.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 02:53 PM

Well said Frank!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 02:57 PM

Is it important? Well.....somewhat. But there are a lot of things that are way more important, like the general levels of good relations you maintain with other people, for example.

Besides, if we reincarnate many times, and I think we do, then cultural heritage is just a brief and passing role that only encompasses one life. It can enrich that life, for sure, but you generally find yourself dealing with a whole new situation when the curtain rises again on a new life, so why get overly attached to any one culture?

This makes no sense at all to someone who thinks he's only here once, of course, and I wouldn't expect it to.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 03:32 PM

Well it is just as silly to be racially focused in defense of English culture as it is about American culture; national culture, to the degree it exists, is not about colors, but about ideas. A newly sworn in citizen of the UK from Pakistan or Somalia has as much right to be proud of the Magna Carta or the heritage of chivalry--an Anglo-French cultural stereotype--or the emotional warmth of a truly English pub, or the literary powers of CHild's Ballads or Jonson, as an American has to be proud of the core values in the Declaration. These ideas define ways of being in the world which any race of humans can enjoy assuming they understand the language inviolved.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 04:16 PM

As an Irish-American, raised with pride on the songs and stories, and from a decidely Irish Republican family, I have never found speaking of English culture to be racist. Only when the English try to impose it on others does it become racist. And that would be the same for the Europeans, and their descendants in this country that tried to impose their culture on the Native Peoples of this land. Same would hold true for the Japanese and their attempts to impose their culture on the Chinese and Koreans. In other words, culture is something to enjoy, and revel in the parts of it that lend unique customs. But when it is used as an implement to destroy another's culture, it is a wicked thing, indeed.

In the USA, the culture of the Motherland was usually held onto with passion by those for whom it was a safe place. The Irish Catholic, upon entry into the land of hopes and dreams, was often met with discrimination in housing, employment, and marriage opportunities. So they sought refuge among one another, and by holding onto customs. The African descended peoples, brought in slave ships, did the same. Over the years, these customs got watered down, or evolved, but the cultural identity remained.

It is about identity in the end. When living in a land of immigrants, that tie to something that makes you unique, and gives you worth, that is where it becomes important. Look for what you have in common, and celebrate that which is different.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 04:19 PM

Like many of you, I've been all over "this big old world".

And it is true that the Brits have a reputation for being arrogant and racist.

Often, this criticism comes from more "enlightened" european nationals in the netherlands and france amongst others.

Yet I have seen more skinhead activity on the continent than I have in the UK.

Jean Marie le Pens Front National has been a serious contender of late and he has been supported to a significant degree in France in local and national elections.

Here in the UK there is the oddd scare when the BNP wins a seat on a council, but generally, Nick Griffin is seen as a laughing stock. And that's how the Brits keep the fascists in their place - they lampoon them. So far it has been a successful approach.

I don't write any of the above in some misguided attempt to set the UK up in competition with other countries as regards their levels of racism, I do so to be fair to the Brits who have in my opinion grown up more than any other european country with the exception of germany when it comes to racist ideologies.

Britain had its culture shock when the Windrush arrived in 1948, bringing with it a new community of West Indian immigrants.

It had another in 1972 when Idi Amin exported 70,000 Asians from Uganda and many came to England.

The Brits reacted badly a first and made their guests feel very unwelcome to begin with, but now in 2008(9), attitudes are very different.

An employer will choose someone with an Irish accent to man the phones over someone with an english accent whereas in the 60's and 70's, an Irish accent was a definite hindrance.

In fact the stereotype of the educated Irishperson (lets be honest - woman) is about as contrasted nowadays as it could be from the old stereotype of the drunken brawling thicko that "need not apply" of the old days.

Since Ireland started to make a bit of cash and became a net contributor to the EU, it has had to open its doors to refugees and other new immigrants, something it was allowed to avoid when it was a poor country.

And as it has happened, Irelands holier than though "I'm on the side of the under dog" attitude has been shown to be a bit weak in substance in the face of increased immigration, with relatives of mine coming out with Alf Garnetisms galore, such as "they bring their crime with them" and "they're lazy" etc.

I have witnessed intimidation of people with dark skin by skinheads in the supposed liberal capital of the world, Amsterdam and encountered a surprising amount of racism in peoples attitudes there.

One of the things about being Irish in Europe is that people automatically assume that you're a nice guy, fun, honest and have a big heart. People feel they can be open with you because you just understand.

As a result of this I have had it 'reasonably' explained to me (cos I'd understand of course) why you can't trust an Englishman. Sometimes this has happened while I have been with an English friend and I have had to labour to demonstrate that "he's ok" and then to prise that chink open a bit further to make the point that the English are all human, not just my friend.

The Brits have a history ... just like everyone has a history ...

but they aren't any more racist than anyone else, and institutionally they are a great deal less so than many other nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 04:26 PM

Part of cultural convictions, instilled from birth in defiance of all subsequent evidence, is that all those who came to these shores after the AMerican Revolution came under the umbrella of a common sense of unification even while reserving to their own families and groups the cultural heritage of their antecedents--whether Irish, Italian, Armenian, Polish, Jewish, Puerto Rican, Spanish, French or Ugandan. I am naively canalized into this inherent optimism about America despite all the best efforts of others to disabuse me.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: skipy
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 04:38 PM

Yet again someone complaining about the BNP! Have you taken the time to read their manifesto? Or do you prefer to read what the comics say about them!
Our (now lost) culture IS VERY important but now history! Soon it will be illegal to sing or play folk songs or folk music because it may offend. Trust me IT IS COMING!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 04:52 PM

Skipy,

want to see Nick Griffin (current head of the BNP) deny the holocaust?

look here.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 05:01 PM

From Amos:

"Well it is just as silly to be racially focused in defense of English culture as it is about American culture; national culture, to the degree it exists, is not about colors, but about ideas. A newly sworn in citizen of the UK from Pakistan or Somalia has as much right to be proud of the Magna Carta or the heritage of chivalry--an Anglo-French cultural stereotype--or the emotional warmth of a truly English pub, or the literary powers of CHild's Ballads or Jonson, as an American has to be proud of the core values in the Declaration. These ideas define ways of being in the world which any race of humans can enjoy assuming they understand the language inviolved."

Yes! YES!!   

Beautifully put, Amos (Heck, I wish I could write like you!) :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 05:01 PM

here he is saying he'd personally love to put gays and lesbians "back in the closet"

blue clicky

not in the manifesto either no?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 05:08 PM

"Yet again someone complaining about the BNP! Have you taken the time to read their manifesto?"

Yes indeed. A scary bunch you have there. Put sheets on their heads and you will see what the KKK was like during the 20's and 30's.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 05:30 PM

"Yet again someone complaining about the BNP!"

Not enough complain about them. I've had them over on my myspace page about England, and believe you me, we've crossed swords over issues. They get packed off with a verbal boot up the backside from me, and boy, they don't like that! A nastier bunch of thugs you'd not wish to meet anywhere...and they have taken over the flag of my country!    Time to take it back.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 05:49 PM

Interesting to see some here accept that the English may have and cherish a cultural heritage. Now go above the line and see what is being said there.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: skipy
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 05:54 PM

LOX, thanks for pointing that one out, I had not seen it before & I am horrified!
The stuff that I have read is the recent stuff, not the 11 & 12 year items.
BUT, what a prick to have said what he did!
Skipy
Not a supporter by the way, just I have bothered to read what they have had to say in the last year.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 06:02 PM

Fair enough skipy.

Credit where credit is due, at least you were basing your judgemant on the available information and not just spouting your own pro or anti BNP agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 06:07 PM

Lizzie,

"and they have taken over the flag of my country!"

I like to think that they occupy a little comedy corner of it - David Walliams springs to mind ...

Did you ever see the the party political broadcast which ended up with Griffin walking past the front of a spitfire, his face full of nervous ticks? He couldn't stop blinking and his grimacing attempt at a smile was truly a sight to behold. As for his self conscious silly walk ... truly a candidate for that ministry!

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 06:41 PM

"It is about identity in the end. When living in a land of immigrants, that tie to something that makes you unique, and gives you worth, that is where it becomes important. Look for what you have in common, and celebrate that which is different."

well said Mick ... well said !


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 06:58 PM

Top right-hand corner:

Show of Hands - 'Exile'


Best thing you can do with Nick Griffin, lox, is wrap him up in the Nazi flag and post him to Panama. Give all his followers free passage there too, well worth it. One way tickets only of course. Then, we can dust down the English flag again, take it back from the football 'ooligans, and the "Ing..er...land!" brigade, shine it up and make it stand for one of the fairest and most welcoming nations in the world.

Hey, I went into Sidmouth Police Station last week, and there, taking up the whole of the front part of the main desk was a huge sign telling you to point to your own language and an interpreter would be called for you. There were 31 diffferent languages there, including English. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 07:17 PM

Lizzie, it is at this point that sadly our views diverge.

NF = Football fan ... is a significant fallacy.

The NF infiltrated football and gave it a bad name just as it infiltrated the original skinhead movement and gave it a bad name.

Original skinheads?

Yes - they were into ska and two tone and definitely not into neo nazi politics, being pioneers of black white integration in English culture.

Whats so good about football?

When the industrial revolution happened, people were forced into cities and had to leave their rural culture behind.

They needed to reinvent their identity as their old cultural norms were incompatible with their new environment.

Football in England is the working mans game.

Up north he loves his rugby league, and in wales he likes a bit of rugby union, but football is the dominant working class sport in Britain - and funnily enough the rest of the world.

Why can't they behave like rugby fans?

Most football supporters behave perfectly respectably if a bit noisily. They wear their class literally on their sleeve in the form of a West Ham shirt or an England shirt. They take pride in their urban working class identity and no amount of moralizing can dent that.

Why doesn't yobbishness in football happen elsewhere in the world?

Actually it does, often with more violence than has been the case in England for a long time - korea - brazil - argentina - turkey - holland - germany - italy - spain ...

Rugby Union in England is traditionally a rural and middle/upper class pastime.

Of course these divides are becoming slightly more superficial nowadays, but in terms of peoples identities, English culture should not make the mistake of eschewing football from its rightful place at its heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 07:53 PM

Nope, it's the modern day football fans, lox, that get to me. Corporate Football has taken over and it controls the fans, and the game, in a very different way these days, or so it seems to me.I've got nothing against football, but heck, at Waterloo Station the other day, you could hear the chant, rumbling in the distance.."Inger..land!...Inger..land!" and round the corner they all tumbled. They climbed into the the train and for near on three hours most of us were put through a journey we weren't expecting. Even the guard gave up, and let them pretty much take over the train, where they downed the lager, happily given to them by the steward who was up and down the train with his trolley, doling out alcohol wherever it was wanted.

I lost it at one point, somewhere between the conversations about which porno films they'd watched and what they liked best in them and who they'd er...been with (that's the polite term, their one started with f) the night before,...and that's when I went KERBOING and turned into The Mother From Hell, packing them off to their 'virtual bedrooms' where they all had to lower their voices and consider others.

I used to work in London, and I'd often travel home with football fans going to Wembley Stadium, the train was packed with them, and they were, in the main, just happy lads, a bit of singing, a few scarves here and there, knitted by Mum or girlfriends. There were no problems that I can remember, at all. But now, they're like an army of arrogant aggressors who think they rule the roost.

Keep the football, by all means, it's part of England, yes, but get the fans to behave in a more thoughtful way. Older people, especially the very elderly shouldn't have to sit their cowering, or being too frightened to speak, because some people, old enough to know better, are not giving a tinker's cuss about their feelings. Good manners used to be very much a part of English culture, not any more it ain't...and I think that's a sad loss to any society, because when people stop caring about others, about their feelings, things start going wrong. By all means have a great day out at the football, enjoy yourselves, but remember that other people are also out enjoying themselves too. How come American Football is so family orientated, yet English football has become so loutish these past 10/15 years or so? I guess because our society in general has become that way, perhaps. And, I think we desperately need to get rid of our 'class system' and just view ourselves as people.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:13 PM

My heritage is Scots/English with a wee bit of Irish/Dutch/Native American....and I am happy to claim all of them. I feel most 'aware' of the Scots/English linage, and tend to favor music and images etc. from those areas. I go to the Scottish games at various times, and enjoy meeting those who are even MORE involved in celebrating that culture and heritage......but, when I leave there, I am American, with very little 'overlay'.

Multi-culturalism is both a wonderful thing and a problem: wonderful because the virtues of having different viewpoints, knowledge and historical perspective can help any country cope with the complexities of easy travel, the internet/WWW and world commerce. But.... a problem because some folks either cannot or WILL not truly assimilate into a new culture, and expect, somehow, their adopted country/culture to adapt to them. When you have several...or many...different cultures all trying to retain the trappings, language and behavioral norms of their different backgrounds in the same urban area, conflicts are inevitable.

It is one thing to be proud of your heritage and to *preserve* its customs, foods, language, dress....etc. for special occasions...as in the Scottish games; but it is quite another make one's major 'hobby' being Irish, Russian, Latino, Black, Japanese...whatever.
   If I were to emigrate to Japan, Australia, Poland...whatever, I would expect to 1)learn the language as best as I could, 2)learn and adopt acceptable public behavior (as in 'personal space', when to bargain over price, operating a motor vehicle, how loud to talk in a restaurant...and so on. This is NOT always clear & easy, but a little effort can avoid the more serious conflicts.

If you think I am overstating this issue, you may live in an area where it really IS a minor thing...but I assure you that in major cities, it is often quite ...ummm...major. In the Washington D.C. metropolitan area, we get the best & the worst of 'multi-culturalism'. I assume there are similar issues in London, Sydney, Hong Kong, Seattle, Dallas, Chicago, Los Angeles, ...and many more.

   It is obviously a delicate matter to discuss the fine line between embracing and welcoming a variety of 'others' to enhance one's society and knowing when and HOW to ask 'others' to please try to adapt to the customs and language they are visiting or emigrating to.
These days, it seems to me, political correctness has made it awkward to even debate the problem...and the news every day..(at least around here)..is full of stories which have elements of this situation embedded in them...though usually not explicitly stated.

I don't know all the answers...I only know that it SHOULD be addressed.

I am proud of and interested in my cultural heritage...and you should feel the same about yours...but we MUST have some common ground for their comfortable co-existence.


I will now retreat to a corner and see if there is any opinion on my concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lox
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:19 PM

I fear that one ingredient of football which rose tinted specs might gloss over, but that has always been there, is the culture of 2 fingers up to the toffs.

In the first world war all the toffs became officers and got sent to their deaths.

So now the middle classes, and their (our) morality are the toffs, and in the mind of a footballer, footie day is their day to rule the roost.

Thongs are if anything improving from the days of organized football firms in the seventies that existed with the sole intention of bashing each other to the point of death and in some cases beyond that point.

Try and cut it out and it will become entrenched and resist you.

Don't get me wrong, when I see people that I would otherwise call my friends singing "no surrender to the IRA", I know they don't know what it means, and they know that they don't really unsderstand it too, but for the duration of the match, they don't want to know - they are celebrating their ignorance - wearing their class on their sleeve (even if they aren't of that class - and often the foootie is an excuse for the middle classes to act like idiots)

Girls go to the footie too, as do people of ethnic minorities.

In the latter case, this is often because, in the words of one famous black west ham supporter, the colour of his skin wasn't the issue - when he was with the firm he was "claret and blue".

I am not excusing or promoting bad behaviour, but I do think it is important to understand what it is and accept it rather than to demonize it, and also to recognize its progress and compare it to its darkest period in the seventies.

It has a lot to answer for, Lad and Ladette culture etc, but it represents a sector of society that was disenfranchised making its voice heard and its presence felt.

For the record, I don't have a team and I hate getting caught up amongst a crowd of footie fans on the rampage when they've had a few too many, especially when I have my daughter with me.

But I'm not going to be judgemental either.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:47 PM

Hey Bill,

The answer to one part of your post is that in HK most expats are out there on short contracts. Hence, unless you want your kids to go to boarding school, you need to get them schooled somewhere that they speak the language and that their education can be a continuation of what they were doing at home.

Hence you find the French school, full of french speaking kids preparing for the Baccaleureat, German Swiss kids at the GSIS doing German and swiss exams, English kids at the ESF schools doing A-levels, and American kids doing SAT's at the American international school.

To name but a few ...

Being Irish, I ended up in the english system along with 37 other nationalities.

We all spoke English.

Very few ever learned cantonese - even the ones who spent most of their formative years there.

wierd but practical.

I have spent long hours searching my soul to reconcile the fact that I grew up on the coast of China, yet my second language after english is french.

But expat culture was transient and friends came and went and that is why it was the way it was.

As if things weren't complicated enough already.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 08:48 PM

"It is obviously a delicate matter to discuss the fine line between embracing and welcoming a variety of 'others' to enhance one's society and knowing when and HOW to ask 'others' to please try to adapt to the customs and language they are visiting or emigrating to."

That sounds scary. Why should anyone need to "adapt" to customs and language??

One of the beautiful things about the US is that we do not have an official language and no one needs to "adapt" to anything other than the laws.   Sure, it can be frustrating when you run into a clerk that does not speak English, but so what?   If you stop to think, you probably learn something from such interactions.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 10:44 PM

So what? Well, the other week, I had a problem with the 'self-check' grocery line, and the person tasked with 'helping' people at those counters tried to explain what she thought I had done wrong. I was totally unable to understand her explanation (she 'seemed' to be Indian or Pakistani - I'm not sure...the key phrase was something about "kay de cah oop". She pushed some buttons and got my groceries charged. I'm sure she knew what she was doing...but...
Now, it is MY opinion the the store should not have put someone with limited knowlege of English in such a position...but I do wonder if SHE cared whether she was approximating syllables that 'worked'...I just don't know.

You say, Ron..."we do not have an official language and no one needs to "adapt" to anything other than the laws. "....
That seems to me to miss the entire point... it may not be 'required' to adapt to basic English, but it does hinder communication and create real frustration...and often has serious consequences when the situation IS crucial...like incidents recently when police and suspects in a confrontation were unable to make make themselves mutually understood, resulting in injuries. It is difficult TO "adapt to the laws" if you and the enforcers cannot communicate!


"If you stop to think, you probably learn something from such interactions."...well, sometimes it works, but MANY times it leads to frustration and counter-productive actions. I now avoid the self-check lines which they want to promote, and go thru regular lines where checkers do all the work, whether they speak to me at all.

I could easily cite 14 more examples of such situations.... and a few where persons of foreign heritage HAD managed to learn, adapt and speak the lingua franca. There IS a 'standard' language, whether it is 'official' or not it is the language spoken on the major TV networks to deliver the news.....this is the case in most countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 12:34 AM

You are the one missing the entire point Bill, not me.   Of course there is a predominant language but the day anyone tries to make it offical is the day you might as well use the Constitution to wipe your ass.

I'm not sure where you live, but if you would like to visit NJ I can take you to towns where there are signs in Korean and the language spoken is the same. There are also wonderful neighborhoods where Spanish is the dominant language and stores, advertisements, radios, etc. will cater to this.    Most law enforcement officials are trained to deal with this. Does it make it more difficult, sure does - but that is the cost of our freedoms.

Your story about your grocery store experience describes your frustration at the store not having someone that spoke English that could help you.   Yet you also said that this woman DID help you and got your groceries charged - yet you still question whether she "cared"???????    Perhaps you were the one that needed a lesson???

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: open mike
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:25 AM

i do feel a kinship with my scandinavian ancestors and like to explore the history and culture that my relatives lived in before coming across the pond. I enjoy learning the folk music and wearing the folk costume from the historic home land of my people. I have hosted visitors from there and have shared the hospitality of people there.
It is an international exchange that leads to understanding with the hope that there could be more international friendships on a personal and national level. In europe and other places it is common for people to be fluent in several languages. this does not seem to be as common in U.S.(MOSTLY DUE TO SPACE...IN OTHER AREAS YOU CAN TRAVEL TO A PLACE AS FAR AWAY AS A U.S. STATE AND BE IN A DIFFERENT COUNTRY WITH A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE, CURRENCY AND TRADITIONS)

i once heard a Canadian say that in america there is a "melting pot" and in canada it is more like a jello salad with bits held together in a matrix of gelatin.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:34 AM

The Few - Billy Bragg

At night the Baby Brotherhood and the Inter City Crew
Fill their pockets up with calling cards
And paint their faces red white and blue
Then they go out seeking different coloured faces
And anyone else that they can scare
And they salute the foes their fathers fought
By raising their right hands in the air
Oh look how my country's patriots are hunting down below

What do they know of England who only England know

From the stands of the Empire Stadium
Come the heralds of the New Dark Age
With the simplicities of bigotry
And to whom all the world's a stage
These little John Bullshits know that the press
Will glorify their feats
So that the general public fear them
And the authorities say give 'em all seats
And the wasted seed of the bulldog breed
Is shouting "Here we go..."

What do they know of England who only england know

Our neighbours shake their heads
And take their valuables inside
While my countrymen piss in their fountains
To express our national pride
And to prove to the world that England
Is just as rotten as she looks
They repeat the lies that caught their eyes
At school in history books
But the wars they think they're fighting
Were all over long ago

What do they know of England who only England know

And the society that spawned them
Just cries out "Who's to blame?"
And then wraps itself in the Union Jack
And just carries on the same
Oh look out, my country's patriots are hunting down below

What do they know of England who only England know



That song was released in 1991. The situation with hooilganism was far, far worse in the 70s and 80s than it is now. In fact, it was probably one of the things which led to corporate intervention, as the all-seater stadiums which commanded higher ticket prices were suddenly attractive to the corporate big-hitters. When I first came to England a dad could still afford to take his kids down the footy on a Saturday - it coast about £8 for an adult to get in, and it was all about the cameraderie on the terraces - I used to love going down the Villa on a Saturday and standing in the Holt End. But when the seated stadiums came in, suddenly the demographic changed because working class people couldn't easily afford to go every week; do you remember the Fast Show sketch with the middle class footie fan, getting out his hamper and champers?

With the advent of Sky, football became much more about sitting in your living room or in the local pub and watching the match. I thought this was really sad - in America, when I was growing up, my family were passionate football fans - but we hardly ever went to a live game. There's much more of a culture of watching on TV. I loved it that English football was about the live experience - so much more thrilling...and of course, there's the singing! But I think that's changed substantially now.

But from what all of my footie-fan friends have told me about the situation in the 70s and 80s, with the "crews" and the racist violence and the skinheads, you simply can't compare the general pissed-up unruliness you get now with the very real atmosphere of violence there was then.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:39 AM

I should add, as a clarification: the hooligan element has only ever represented a very small number of football supporters, and, as with so many things, it is unfortunate that the majority have been tarred with the same brush. Billy Bragg has also repeatedly made this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:25 AM

Next to Seamus Ennis singing Football Crazy, this is my favourite piece of English footballing cultural commentary:

The Fall - Kicker Conspiracy

Kicker, Kicker Conspiracy
Kicker, Kicker Conspiracy
J. Hill's satanic reign [1]
Ass-lickers King O'Team
Kicker, Kicker Conspiracy x 2

In the marble halls of the charm school
How flair is punished
Under Marble Millichip, the F.A. broods [2]
On how flair can be punished
Their guest is a Euro-State magnate
Corporate-ulent
How flair is punished

Kicker, Kicker Conspiracy x 4

In the Blues Club, George Best does rule [3]
How flair is punished.
His downfall was a blonde girl, but that's none of your business!
Kicker, Kicker Conspiracy x 4

Former fan at the bus stop.
Treads on the ball at his feet, in the christmas rush.
And in his hands, two lager cans.
Talks to himself. At the back. At the top.

What are the implications of the club unit?
Plastic, Slime, Partitions, Cocktail, Zig-Zag, Tudor Bar.

Pat McGatt. Pat McGatt, the very famous sports reporter is
talking......there.

FANS! ! ! "Remember, you are abroad!
Remember the police are rough!
Remember the unemployed!
Remember my expense account!

HOT DOGS AND SEAT FOR MR. HOGG !!
HOT DOGS AND SEAT FOR MR. HOGG!!!
AAAAAANNNNDDD HIS GROTTYSPAWN! ! ! !

Lurid brochures for ground unit.
Our style is punished.

Kicker, Kicker Conspiracy x 5
Remember! don't collect with the rough.
Kicker, Kicker Conspiracy

Kicker, lets swell the facilities.

Kicker Conspiracy x 8

Notes:
[1] Jimmy Hill - BBC TV presenter on Match Of The Day
[2] Sir Bert Millichip - Chairman of the British Football Association 1981-1996
[3] The Blues Club was the Manchester City supporters club bar at Maine Road. George Best - 60's soccer icon - played for Manchester United, City's arch rivals, but he was still revered for his style and brilliance. Mark E Smith has said on UK TV that even though he's a City fan he often went with mates to watch United just so he could see Best play.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:26 AM

Cultural identity is very important to me.

I am an African American whose mother was born in this country, but whose parents & siblings were born in the Caribbean. My father was adopted as a toddler and was raised in Michigan. Consequently, I have no Southern United States roots that I know of. I was raised in a working class African American family in the resort city of Atlantic City, New Jersey in the 1950s to the mid 1960s. Unlike this present time, there were very few if any Latinos in that city, and only a small number of Asians. During the 1950s and 1960s when I lived in the city, the racial population was about two thirds White and about one third Black. However, residential neighborhoods were largely segregated by race, and economic class within racial groups. Because public schools up to junior high school {age 11 or so] were based on neighborhood, these schools were also racially segregated. There was only two public junior high schools in the city, and only one public high school. Because a number of White students attended a Catholic junoir & senior high school, or private junior or senior high school, the racial mix at the public junior and sentior high schools was about 50% Black and 50% White. I recall only two Asian students, and one person with a Spanish surname in my large high school graduting class of 900 students.

When I was growing up in Atlantic City, all of the social institutions for children such as YMCAs, YWCAs, and all the social groups that I was aware of such as Boy Scouts, and Girl Scouts were segregated by race. The churches were also segregated. But the public library was integrated.

There is no doubt in my mind that the majority culture's negative valuation of Black people as a group and negative valuation of Black people as individuals greatly impacted the way that I viewed myself and my group. As a child, and as a young teen, I had an inferiority complex. I believed that historically and in that present time my racial group had made no significant accomplishments, and that White people as a group had accomplished more than any other group of people. It's not surprising that I believed this, since the educational curriculum and the mass media directly and indirectly taught that.

However, during my childhood and teen years there were mitigating factors that helped me develop and helped reinforce positive feelings of self-esteem. Little things can also make a difference about how a person in an "out group" thinks about her or himself. I am a twin. As a young child, I can remember my mother taking my sister and me to a "Mother of Twins" meeting. My recollection was that we were the only Black people at that meeting, and I don't recall us going back a second time. Yet, I credit that meeting with inculcating in me the sense that being a twin was something positive. Twins are special. I am a twin. So therefore I am special.

Also, my grandfather was the head deacon in our church, and the president of a prominent Black religious organization in our county. As part of his responsibilities, my grandfather did a great deal of public speaking throughout our city and county. He would often take me and some other grandchildren with him to these events, and introduce us to those in attendance. Though I wasn't conscious of it at those times, the positive attention that my grandfather received, helped me to think more positively about myself.

As I mentioned previously, my junior high school, and high school were racially integrated. One of the pluses for me of this integrated learning experience was that I realized that academically I did better than many of my White classmates. This direct experience helped to raise my self-esteem and helped me refute the myth of White superiority. Yet, it wasn't until my college and young adult years that the myth of White group superiority was dismantled. Learning about African traditional cultures and the folk cultures of other people of color was an important part of that journey.

I credit my work as an adult in adoption, and particularly in transracial adoption {the adoption of a child of one race by an adult or adults of another race} for reinforcing the principle that I have that people are people are people but that, especially in a society that is hostile to one's group, positive group esteem is very important to the development of a healthy, positive sense of self.

I'm glad that I found Mudcat. Among other things, this forum provides opportunities for me to "meet" individuals whose lifestyles may be very different than mine, but whose values, interests, and concerns are often quite similar. Most of the time, Mudcat gives me hope that at some point-though maybe not in my lifetime- racial identity will be nothing more than a descriptor, and racial identity will have neither positive nor negative valuation.

I hope and I work for such a time as that.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:31 AM

As a supplement to my personal comments, those who are interested my want to read this online research article about racial identity in Black youth:

http://64.233.169.132/search?q=cache:TmfJILoWO5QJ:sitemaker.umich.edu/daphna.oyserman/files/doyserman.pdf+african+american+ident

Here are some excerpts of that article:

"For African American youth, answers to the 'who am I?' question are likely to include both distinctive, unique features of the self one will become and also representations of oneself as a black person in America. That is, the self-concept is likely to contain both personal identity and also racial identity - a sense of what it means to be both American and of African heritage. In this way, racial identity deals with the dual membership of African Americans -- membership in a group with traditions, culture and heritage that is interdependent or collectivistic in focus and also as a membership in a post-industrial, individualistically oriented society that has negative stereotypes about one's racial group...

Research on African American or black identity has focused... primarily on [a] sense of connectedness or common fate, a positive sense of heritage and history, and [an] awareness of racism and negative stereotyping as identity components...

In our work, we focus on the 'insiders view', asking what is the experience of being African American for black youths. Our premise is that in urban centers black youths cannot choose to ignore or not take into account this social identity...

Positive in-group attitudes and identification are correlated with higher self-esteem, less stress andless delinquent involvement (McCreary, Slavin, & Berry, 1996; Beale-Spencer, Cunningham, &Swanson, 1995). Bat-Chava & Steen's (1996) recent meta-analysis of doctoral and master theses studies suggests a moderate connection between various measures of ethnic identity and self-esteem. Further, it seems plausible that racial identity will be linked with reduced risk of depression first because feeling connected to one's community provides a positive sense of one'sroots and a sense of belonging, reducing sense of isolation and aloneness. And secondly, being aware of racism provides a non-self-denigrating explanation for setbacks and failures, reducing excessive self-blame (Crocker & Major, 1989). Defining oneself in terms of both of these components of racial identity is likely to provide a sense of rootedness (I know where I came from and who I belong to) and an understanding of possible negative responses from others or difficulties (Some people may expect less of me because I am black). Reading the literature, it becomes clear that ethnic and racial identity are typically measured by some mix of items focused on the importance and centrality of ethnic or racial group membership to one's sense of self, one's everyday behaviors or everyday life. In addition, sense of common fate and positive connection to the traditions and heritage are commonly assessed."...

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:33 AM

Lovely. I can't imagine anything stating more clearly that cultural heritage is important. Thanks, Azizi.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:01 AM

I think the takeaway is that cultural heritage is important to provide a sense ones self, but also to fit into the patchwork quilt that makes up our communities. The tragedy of segeration and the insane positions of the BNP are not celebrations of heritage but an attempt to wipeout the heritage of our friends and neighbors.   We should be celebrating our diversity and honoring our heritage - it makes us who we are, and at the same time take pride in the fact that we are part of a larger union.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:27 AM

While this will probably leave me hanging on a meathook somewhere, I would offer the thought that the obsession with commercially organized sports events which characterizes both the American idiot-fan and the British hooligan-fan and the Argentinian soccer-bozo is no more a significant part of one's culture than cigarette brands or Saturday cartoons, in any real, organic sense.

Rather, they are a debased, hollow substitute for the actual ideas and values and communications that make up the real living strength of a culture. It is not that physical excellence is not part of human cultures, but modern _commercial_ fandom as "culture" is like comparing human history with Disney's feature-length cartoon stories.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:28 AM

" might as well use the Constitution to wipe your ass." ???


*sigh*...Ron Olesko... when you substitute slogans for reason & pragmatic concerns, I don't know how to answer you...I'll try once more, though.

What do "Our freedoms" have to do with putting the right person into the right position in dealing with the public? I will defend anyone's rights as strongly as you will. I have risked my life doing so ....

I said "I don't know" about the woman in the store....I still do not know. I DO know that when I was in 1st year German class in college, there were a couple of guys in my class that simply would NOT make those 'funny sounds' requires to speak German correctly. I can't prove it, but I suspect that they considered it silly..or not worth the effort. Then, a few years ago, my son was taking piano lessons from a woman who was from Russia....she had been here 30 YEARS, and still could barely make herself understood! I know a woman from Spain who married an American 40 years ago, and insisted that HE learn her language, as she did not like to speak English, and doggedly retains her heavy accent.
I could go on.

My real point is that I want the best for people, (as well as wanting comfortable communication for my own 'selfish' interests), and those whose language skills are lacking will at some point find their opportunities limited. This make me sad. I know that they manage..up to a point, but it is simply impossible

"Most law enforcement officials are trained to deal with this"?

Really? Just how do you train someone to "deal" with a distraught person shouting in a foreign language...especially if they seem inclined to violence? Sure we have 'some' Spanish speaking police where I live...but recently none was available when a boy was causing a disturbance at a fast-food restaurant. He was shot. If he had been Korean or Thai or ".....", there would have been NO one to even call.

I just watched a TV show about an emergency room, in which a doctor treated a 2-year old girl, and had to call a translation service to get someone who spoke Persian to explain to her father how to give her medicine! That was nice..but that service only works when you have time and know the numbers! It doesn't work on police patrols...or in supermarket lines.

Ask ANY school district with a large multi-cultural population just how well they are coping with educating kids in 4-8-12 languages...and how much it costs to try...and what this does to their "no child left behind" scores. They will give you (on the record) a politically correct answer about their efforts. If you can get a private, 'off the record', answer, you hear other things. (I know someone who cares a LOT, but is very frustrated.)

I just don't know what else to say...**I** care... I just can't comprehend how we can cope with changing demographics that are outstripping our ability to do it right. I do know that waving the Constitution is hardly the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:47 AM

Sigh right back at ya.

Bill, our country is based on freedoms. Read the first ammendment to the Consititution. We do NOT have an official language and we should never attempt to. 82% of our country speaks English, and based on the last census, the number jumps up to 92% of those who can at least understand English - even if it is not their primary language.

Use as much TV examples and rhetoric as you like, but your answer to solving the issue is not the appropriate response. If you try to change our national identity by restricting language - and make no mistake, that is what it does - then you are undermining our freedoms.

Understanding and learning a language are two different aspects.   While you may have a problem with strong accents, the answer is not that everyone needs to speak in your native tongue.   Going back to your example, you were helped by the woman in the supermarket but you seem to ignore that simply because you could not understand her words. She did her job, she helped you.

I understand that you care, but you need to step back and look at what you are asking for.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:00 PM

I'm going to spring in to defend BillD, as we are both proud residents of Montgomery County, Maryland--our county tends to trump most other places that fancy that they are multicultural--more than 25% of our population are foreign born, and somewhere close to a third do not speak english at home. That third speak one of about 170 different languages.

I have heard the manager a local McDonald's give directions to employees in what turned out to be Igbo ( I thought it was Yoruba, but what do I know?), where previously, language spoken had been Spanish.

Just yesterday, I was shopping in Costco, and in the 40 minutes that I was in the store, I didn't hear English spoken until the Russian in front of me in line began insulting the African cashier.

The central shopping district in my little town is hard to navigate if you can't read Spanish, and the street and the shops are full of people til late in the evening, which causes a lot of friction with the long time residents of the area.

Many to most of the people we have to deal with each day aren't native English speakers, and some don't speak English at all(though you may not realize it at first), and, though in a larger sense, it is kind of invigorating, in an immediate way, it can be problematic.

A while back, I took a worn quilt to the Korean dry cleaners. She showed it to one of the Salvadorean seamstresses, then quoted me a price for the repairs, which I paid up front.

When I returned, there was another employee at the register who refused to return the quilt unless I paid a substantial additional amount.

The resulting fracas required the intervention of the consumer rights advocate in the county prosecutor's office who had to get two translators to figure out what was going on.

Briefly, the Salvadoran seamstress had told the Korean cashier that she couldn't do the repair. The cashier had misunderstood and taken the quilt. Then, another seamstress
took the quilt, thought that it needed something else done, gave an estimate for that, and sent it back to the cashier, who mistook the estimate for additional charges. Since communication in the shop was pointing, nodding, and smiling, with the odd "yes" and "no", no one knew what anyone else was doing. They all thought they did, though.

BillD, I am sure, joins me in a delighted appreciation of all the things that our new neighbors bring us, including delicious cuisines, charming customs, and a sort of eager and sincere manner that disappeared from mainstream America a long time ago.

Still, with neither malice nor recrimination, we occassionally wish our new friends had a more secure grasp of our common speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:08 PM

Whew .... starting to sound like a bunch of cranky old men in this thread .... times they are a changing / evolving ... get used to it ... better still, welcome it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:08 PM

The core documents of the nation, all its laws, and its primary body of literature are all written in English. Almost of its national media and certainly its major ones are conducted or written in English.

The purpose of the United States is to build a more perfect union, not to erect a Tower of Babel. From this perspective a strong persuasive (not mandatory) emphasis on learning English (or some other common tongue would have served) as part of joining the experiment is a good idea; but no-one should ever be forced to abandon a language or acquire one against their will.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:19 PM

Culture???? in America we hardly have a culture...just trends, fads, and cheap thrills. Wanting to 'preserve' a culture doesn't fit with 'progressives and liberals' mind sets. You are starting to sound like a conservative....(Reminds me of Winston Churchill's famous quote).

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:25 PM

Thank you, M.Ted, for even better examples of what real, everyday problems are like.

"We do NOT have an official language"
yes, I am aware of this

"... and we should never attempt to."
and that is an entirely different question.

If you'll re-read my posts, Ron, perhaps you can tell me where I gave my "answer to solving the issue". I don't believe I did. I wish I HAD 'the' answer.

An official language might help, but it would take a long time to make a dent in the problem. Better control of immigration would help...but that is a whole new level of issues.

What I DO suggest...and what I hinted at above... is that EVERYONE should stop dancing around the problem and admit that there IS, at least in many areas, a real problem...and begin discussing it and comparing ideas beyond quoting the 1st amendment and noting what the current status quo is.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:32 PM

From Amos:

"While this will probably leave me hanging on a meathook somewhere, I would offer the thought that the obsession with commercially organized sports events which characterizes both the American idiot-fan and the British hooligan-fan and the Argentinian soccer-bozo is no more a significant part of one's culture than cigarette brands or Saturday cartoons, in any real, organic sense.

Rather, they are a debased, hollow substitute for the actual ideas and values and communications that make up the real living strength of a culture. It is not that physical excellence is not part of human cultures, but modern _commercial_ fandom as "culture" is like comparing human history with Disney's feature-length cartoon stories."


yes, Yes, YEs, YES, YESSSSSSS!

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: olddude
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:32 PM

We are all shaped in one way or the other by out heritage and our cultural values

It is wonderful to enjoy songs about our heritage, the food our mom's cooked, the family traditions. Nothing wrong at all with embracing that in a positive light.

the problem only comes about, when we discard other cultures or believe that other cultures are less than ours. Then something positive becomes destructive.

I am always facinated by other cultures and traditions. Getting to know them makes us better people.

Funny story, when my youngest was in college several of her room mates were talking about things they did as a child. My daughter said hey remember when we were kids and use to make a leprechaun trap on St. Patricks day out of cardboard or something to catch a leprechaun... and finding a little green hat or something next to candy!

The other girls just looked at her. She called me up and said, Dad you have GOT to tell me when things were done just in our house as opposed to other people. They laughed hystercally at our "leprechaun trap"

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:34 PM

People neec a shared language.

It's essential. Without it, you have chaos.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: olddude
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:39 PM

I taught at the University with a Hindu professor, we became really good friends. On St. Patricks day we would all go to the local pub and have a beer and eat chicken wings. He turned to me one time and said.   "I love christian gods" in India on a holy day we have to fast and pray and stuff like that. Christian gods you get to drink beer and eat chicken wings


Now that is multi culturalism

I laughed and laughed

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:40 PM

Bill, if you wish to split hairs then fine - you never gave an answer to solving all the problems.   However, I am steadfast in my belief that your suggestion of an offical language for our country is the wrong direction and it stands against everything that we stand for. You can pooh-pooh my quoting of the 1st amendment all you wish, but it doesn't change fact.

If you think that the so-called "problem" of additional languages in our country is new, then you need to recheck your history.

Just a question for M.Ted - did end up paying the additional charges for the quilt?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:42 PM

From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:34 PM

People neec a shared language.

It's essential. Without it, you have chaos.

Spelling skills are cool too.....

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:49 PM

There is only one common shared language and that is music / art ... and that works.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:54 PM

"Spelling skills are cool too..... "

So are stronger contact lenses! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 01:57 PM

Glad you took it light heartedly...I was hoping you'd chuckle!

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:14 PM

Amos, I've known football fans for whom their support of their team is like part of their life's blood. They were easily as passionate about it as any of us are about music. I'm not sure how you're defining "commercially organised" or "obsession", but there are still people who support their local teams and who have done so over several generations. My friend, who is a farmer, was taken to Leicester City matches as a kid by his dad, just as his dad was taken by his dad before him. The family has been Leicester City supporters longer than they've been farmers. He now takes his son, and even when times are hard in farming, this is one thing they find the money for. It is a passion he is passing on.

Just because you can't relate to a passion doesn't mean it's any less valid as a means of cultural expression than any other form of cultural activity. Is football commercialised? Yes, of course it is. So is folk. So is anything in our society which can be bought and sold. Do they lose their validity as means of cultural expression because someone has found a way to commodify them? I really hope not, because if that's the case, we haven't got a lot left.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:19 PM

Ruth Archer, You'll have to excuse Amos, and a lot of other Americans who confuse culture with commercialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:19 PM

"If you think that the so-called "problem" of additional languages in our country is new, then you need to recheck your history."

I did.... when the country was new, we had only a few languages, and not NEARLY so much interaction. Folks with common cultures could have almost independent communities..(and a few still do)..but now, in urban areas, they are going to the same dry cleaners and disputing over repairs.

**Changes in demographics need changes in attitudes and behavior.**


" ...I am steadfast in my belief that your suggestion of an offical language for our country is the wrong direction" ....again...I didn't formally suggest it. I said it 'might' help.... I AM sure a common language, as Lizzie Cornish notes, would help...if it was voluntary instead of manditory, that's even better. Now...how do we get there?


(In Germany, they have a number of dialects...but everyone is more or less expected to be able to switch to "Die Umgangsprache" (the standard 'formal' language used on the evening TV news) when traveling.) Now, even Germany has many immigrants who are slow to adapt....and Germany is having many problems similar to ours.

Japan is a bit different....they do not appreciate dilution of their culture in many areas, and restrictions are apparent. One can debate how well it works.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:19 PM

Bill D and M.Ted,

America is one of the countries of the world that is not bilingual. There is a resistance
to learning another language, here in America as evidenced by the lack of emphasis
in school curricula. If we insist on English being the predominant language, here in the States then I think it is incumbent upon every American to learn a foreign language and
to be adept at more than one if they can. In the inception of this country, the first European immigrants spoke English, German and later Irish, Hebrew (Yiddish), Spanish and now Asian.

Where is it written that English has to be the official language of this country? This is only
because of the tyranny of the first immigrants dictating their linguistic policy to the exclusion of Native Americans. The problem of the lack of language communication skills is directly proportional to the provincial attitudes of many Americans who forget that their ancestors were not the only immigrants here.

If we want to avoid problems in the future, then Americans should become bilingual. It's predicated on the ideals of the inscription below the base of the Lady of the Harbor.

American slang has picked up wonderful expressions from those non-English speaking immigrants of all kinds.

Ron is right. We have to give up our provincial thinking on this issue.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:51 PM

"Where is it written that English has to be the official language of this country? This is only
because of the tyranny of the first immigrants dictating their linguistic policy...."

Not exactly, Frank....sure, we late-comers have indeed been less than courteous to the Native Americans, and of course those who gained 'power' back then worked to make THEIR language/culture the dominant one. Isn't the history of the world like that?

Still, as the world grows 'smaller' and communication between disparate groups is more common, the need for SOME common language(s) becomes more evident. For many reasons,(experts can tell you in detail) English has become one of the 3-4 languages used for most international commerce. (Because it borrowed so heavily from other languages, it became one of the more flexible and powerful ones.)(It is also the one understood, at least minimally, by more OTHER groups).

But all that is only partly relevant to what should happen here....In any country, their culture is expressed partly BY their language, and coping with lots of other languages is a problem...except where intermixing of populations in a smaller area has gone on for generations and folks speak 2-3 languages from childhood.

Here in the US, many, for example in rural areas, don't deal with other cultures at all, and can go most of their lives without needing a 2nd language. I took German...but I have seldom 'needed' it. Yes, knowing more Spanish might now be a real advantage...and I would encourage more folks to learn some Spanish..... but that should not mean that immigrants from the South don't need to learn English!

As a fact of history, English IS the standard language here, and the 2nd language in much of the rest of the world...and as folks strive to preserve and appreciate their heritage (to note the original question), they also need to remember that they have chosen to alter their heritage and that of their children, and responsibilities come with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 02:56 PM

"I AM sure a common language, as Lizzie Cornish notes, would help...if it was voluntary instead of manditory, that's even better. Now...how do we get there?"

Well, we do have a "common" language - that is English.

Let's cut to the chase. What would be accomplished by having an "Official" language?   By law, would that mean your grocery store would be required to speak English???   I guess our descrimination laws would need to be changed to avoid lawsuits. IF we have an offical language, would we need to have bilinguals signs?   Why would a taxpayer need to help fund signs in any language other than English?   So when someone who does not speak English can't read a street sign and goes the wrong way on a one way street or goes through a stop sign and kills someone, who goes to jail or gets sued? If a ballot cannot be read by someone who does not speak English, then they do not have the right to vote?   Sounds like a great way to fix an election.

Better still, we make efforts to teach English. I'm sure all tax payers would be happy to pay extra to fund programs to teach English to our immigrants who are working jobs that others aren't taking.

Of course we have not addressed regional accents.   I've talked to some people from Maine and some people from Georgia that speak a language unlike any other. Let's train these yokels to speak!! And lets not forget Junior, who fell asleep in English class and cannot construct a sentence - or the handicapped. Would they be considered lawbreakers? What do we do with tourists, send them home unless they can speak English?

Here's the thing - I'm all for encouraging people to learn the dominant language in the country they choose to live.   it would help everyone to be able to communicate clearly.   I will tell you a story. My son loves Burger King chicken tenders. I realize they are not healthy, but he is doing okay and I don't mind getting him a treat. They have a dollar value menu - 4 chicken tenders for $1.   I thought I purchase 4 orders of 4 pieces chicken tenders. That is exactly what I said to the woman who took my order. I get to the window and she hands me a single order.   I tell her again what I want, and she points to the bag and with a thick Spanish accent she says "Four".   I repeat my request, she calls over another woman. They say something. The other woman asks me for the order, which I repeat yet again. She then asks me for $17 as she believes that I asked for 4 of the more expensive chicken sandwiches.   I again repeat my order. Another woman comes over. She then asks me if I want #4 on the menu. I repeat my order again (I've lost count). She then nods her head - hands me the 4 orders of chicken tenders, and takes the proper money.

Sure I was aggravated. In the end, I got my order and we had a laugh. I should also say that I've had my order screwed up by teenagers who are white-anglo saxon and really do not give a crap about getting it right. They are talking to their friends and the customer is a distraction.   The three women I dealt with, while they had limited command of the language, at least tried to satisfy my order.

The bottom line is that Burger King should spend time training individuals to serve their customers. If language barriers will hurt their business, that is an issue they must deal with.    The very idea that the problem should even be considered an issue for our government (and we the people) to decide is absurd.

I'm sorry if you think my bringing up the constitution is a distractions, but I feel it is important to fight for. Our country was built by immigrants, and our current crop of diverse cultures continue to expand on those ideals. It is one thing to encourage communication, it is another to alter our freedoms.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:20 PM

Very soon people whose mother tongue is Spanish will become the majority in the U.S.


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:28 PM

From Bill D:

"As a fact of history, English IS the standard language here, and the 2nd language in much of the rest of the world...and as folks strive to preserve and appreciate their heritage (to note the original question), they also need to remember that they have chosen to alter their heritage and that of their children, and responsibilities come with that."

Exactly.

If I went to live in France, I'd learn French. If I went to live in Spain, I'd learn Spanish, etc...etc..etc. I'd not even hesitate to think about doing it, because no way would I expect French people to talk English to me, likewise with the Spanish. I think it would be arrogant and spoilt brattish of me to assume that *they* should learn *my* language. I'd like them to help me out, yes, and to fall over helpless in laughter as I stumbled through learning the words, but no way would I expect them to learn my language purely because I was too darn lazy, or stubbornly fixed in my attitudes, to learn theirs.

I'd also learn their history, their culture, their way of living, how their society functions, the do's and don't's of it all and their laws.

No-one would have to force me to do this, because this is the new country that I'd chosen of my own accord, the one where I'd want to put down my roots, and so therefore, I'd want to become part of that country, its people, its life, and I'd want that for my children too.

I would never forget my own roots, heritage or culture though, and at home I'd speak in English. I'd miss my own language terribly, but know that I'd be able to converse happily with family and friends. But hard though it would be, I'd know that to get on in my new country I'd need to be able to communicate, be it for a job, or a hospital visit, or down to my local shop, talking to my new neighbours, and I'd work hard to learn, because this would be my new beginning, my new start, and a new life for my children.

The alternative would be sign language for the rest of my days, pointing at things, never understanding, isolation, danger at times, through not being able to communicate in an emergency, and a refusal to join the society I'd come to live amongst. There'd be loneliness, anger, confusion and resentment of the host nation, even though they hadn't caused that resentment at all, because *I* was the one who had refused to change.

And I'd not want to live amongst a whole pile of English people, becaause I'd moved to my new country to become a part of it, not create England on a tiny scale.

I think I'm correct in saying that if I wanted to live in Canada, for instance, then I'd have to speak either French or English, be able to support myself or have someone sponsor me for almost 10 years, in case something went wrong. I'd also have to have many educational skills, with exams to prove that, plus job skills too. It wouldn't matter if I were marrying a Canadian or not, as no special advantages are given for that, the rules are the same.

And I think (although please correct me if I'm wrong) that many of these rules came about because the Canadian Government went to the people, after a huge amount of immigration happened, in a short time, when many nationalities moved to Canada, many unable to support themselves or their families and many unable to even speak English or French and it caused a large amount of problems.

You have to be sensible here. Welcome everyone, but everyone has to be responsible and willing to put some hard work in to make everything work well.

Moving to another country is a two way thing. Firstly, it's YOU deciding to make a huge change in your life and being willing to do all you can to learn about your new country, because it is *yours* now...and it's the host nation being willing to welcome you warmly, with open arms, knowing that you are going to do your damndest to fit in and become a happy part of your new country.

I'd keep my own heritage, pass it to my children, share it with my new neighbours, teach them about it, whilst learning theirs, but I'd also know that from the moment I arrived in my new country, I was now blessed with an extra heritage.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: 3refs
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:41 PM

I scanned quickly and saw no mention of sign(signed)language. Probably opened up a can of worms here, but other than some of the grammer, quite a bit of it is universal. I took American Sign Language in college. I could communicate with people from other countries who didn't speak English or French.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:48 PM

GfS:

Your insult is not only inaccurate, it is completely stupid in light of the point I made earlier.

IF a child is put in front of cartoons every morning and watches nothing else, and the child is an American, does that mean the American culture (which does exist, in spite of the bitter ravings of the not quite Sanity upthread) consists of cartoons? Any population has those in it who ignore the culture, and substitute cheap products and shallow ideas for their daily diet. That doesn't mean their culture is one of shallow ideas; it merely means they have chosen not to acquire the ideas it does have.

Maybe we should use a different term for the life of ideas as culture versus the life of fads as popular culture. "Pop" culture includes Mickey Mouse as an icon, raving about ballgames and debates on the merits of cheap beer brands. Its mythology is divorced from ancient wisdom or paradigms, and uses Loony Tunes and Disney icons and legends from "Honey, I Shrunk the Kids" or "Animal House" instead. But I do not include these under the heading of vulture as I understand the original question in this thread. Do you?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 03:56 PM

"You have to be sensible here. Welcome everyone, but everyone has to be responsible and willing to put some hard work in to make everything work well. "

I think the examples that Bill D gave, M.Ted and myself show that these people are responsible and willing to work hard to make things work - language is not necessarily the first priority or the barometer of their intentions.

I'm reading a lot of generatlizations that are perpetuated by ignorance of the fact. You make an assumption that someone is lazy or unwilling to learn a language, yet you do not know if they have tried, are in the process of learning, or simply afraid to speak.

My daughter dated a young man from Peru.   Around my wife and I, he would only speak in short bursts - yes, no, thank you. One day I overheard him chatting with her, and his English was flawless. His intimidation with adults led him to hide his own speech.   Probably because he has heard the insults and impatience that others have directed toward him - feeling that he was stupid because English is not his first language. A real shame because he is very intelligent and has a lot to offer.

The other issue is - where and how do they learn?   Learn it on the street corner? Schools? Who pays? Would you volunteer to help?

Sure, those 5 minutes at Burger King is time from my life that I will never get back. At the same time, I learned something, and I would rather spend 5 minutes in a civil discussion rather than loose something that I cherish.

"a refusal to join the society I'd come to live amongst" - How many of us feel that we march to the beat of a different drummer? How you choose to live your life is your own choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 04:10 PM

"Any population has those in it who ignore the culture, and substitute cheap products and shallow ideas for their daily diet."

I get the impression that you are saying this is the category that sporting culture, such as following a footbal team, falls into. If that's the case, I sincerely disagree. Cultural expression comes in many forms, and there are very few absolutes when quantifying the value of different kinds of engagement. The question of who decides which cultural expressions have value and which are the "shallow ideas" is a loaded one, for a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 05:33 PM

Ron, yes, there are many people who speak English as their first language who have difficulty in conversing, let alone those who don't speak it. I understand that. Yes, there are always particular instances where some folk have difficulties, and of course, I wasn't meaning that people who need help should not be given that, of course they should, that comes in the 'being welcomed' part...But imagine how you'd feel if the burger incident happened every single day, over and over and over, because of the modern way of thinking that it's OK *not* to learn the main language of the country you have chosen to live in.

And yes, some people born and bred in a country, who speak the language fluently etc, choose to stay separate from society, that also goes without saying, I can't include every single scenario in what I've said, but rest assured, compassionate help is always included in what I say. I'm generalising in my post above, talking of the vast majority of people who choose to make another country their home. People who *are* able to learn, and *are* able to socialise, but who decide not to.

Heck, invent a new world language for us ALL to learn, but please, let there be some way for the whole world to communicate, because otherwise, we ain't ever going to get to be One People, even though we are Many.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 05:39 PM

Figures!! I bring up 'culture' and Amos thinks of cartoons!
Sigh-h-h-h.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 05:41 PM

Fer gawd's sake.

If you don't get yer shorts all tied up in knots up over the language issue maybe you can realize we are all one people .... different in many cultural factors, philosophies, different in language .. but all one in our hearts and in our humanity.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:02 PM

If you lack the patience, tolerance, humility we can never become "one People" even if we do speak the same language.

Having patience, tolerance, humility, respect you will be amazed how you can communicate with one's who do not speak the same language but these attitudes have to be mutual.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:06 PM

Its not an argument really,

You need both;

1 - to respect other languages and peoples right to speak in them no metter where they live.

2 - to foster a healthy approach to ensuring people can communicate in the culture they live in. For example in the case of a bangladeshi man with a heart problem who might be trying to tell the paramedic that his pills are in his inside pocket but can't and so dies.

Practicality and common sense can sometimes be confused for a lack of respect or racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:10 PM

" because of the modern way of thinking that it's OK *not* to learn the main language of the country you have chosen to live in. "

My great-grandmother emigrated to America from Sicily in 1904. She died in 1968. She never spoke a word of English.

I don't think it's all that uncommon for the first generation of immigrants to be quite insular and not integrate all that well. It isn't really as easy and straightforward as "If I went to live in France, I'd learn French. If I went to live in Spain, I'd learn Spanish, etc...I think it would be arrogant and spoilt brattish of me to assume that *they* should learn *my* language." There are all kinds of issues around culture, education, the type of society one has emigrated from, etc. There's a big difference between a Brit, say, buying a gite or a Tuscan farmhouse and having the cultural sophistication and confidence to mix happily with the locals; or someone from what may well be an impoverished, small rural community where both education and opportunities to engage with the wider world have been limited. That's the kind of environment my great-grandparents came from. The isolation my nona would have felt was compounded by the hostility she experienced from white Americans, so she tended to "stick with her own", and her social circle was consequently drawn from other Sicilian immigrants: friends and family, and later on her 9 children, their children and grandchildren.

To be honest, I don't imagine that the situation is all that different for many immigrant communities today - it is often fear, and adherence to the familiar, and maybe a bit of hostility (perceived or real)from the outside, which drives insularity. That's the reason that, even now, you get ethnically-divided "neighbourhoods" in cities and towns. The important thing to understand is what happens AFTER that first generation: my grandmother and her sisters and brothers were Italian/American, but very much American. People do integrate.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:16 PM

"But imagine how you'd feel if the burger incident happened every single day, over and over and over, because of the modern way of thinking that it's OK *not* to learn the main language of the country you have chosen to live in. "

Sorry, but your statement is flawed. You are basing it on an assumption that the modern way of thinking is NOT to learn the main language of the country you choose to live in. I don't buy that and I would love to see concrete evidence to the contrary, besides some personal annecdotes.

You asked what would happen if the Burger King incident happened every day.   One of two things - either a) I would probably go elsewhere and/or b) Burger King would lose clientele.    The fact is, I have been there before and dealt with people who have a limited grasp of the language. I really do not have an issue with them, my orders are usually right.   The issue is, this is BURGER KINGS issue - not mine, not my countries.   

Lizzie, as you noted, you were generalizing in your note. Generalizing leads to sterotyping and false images.   While he hasn't admitted it, Bill's incident at the supermarket ended with the individual helping solve the problem and getting Bill the service he needs.   Yet the fact that there was a language barrier gives Bill cause for annoyance - and believe me, I understand why.   Yet in the end, it is how we solve our problems and how we go forward. The impression that someone does not want to learn the language is a HUGE assumption, and other than a group of altercockers sitting around moaning about changes in society, I do not see the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:32 PM

And what about the case of the bangladeshi man with a heart problem who might be trying to tell the paramedic that his pills are in his inside pocket but can't and so dies?

A society does require a basic level of communication to function usefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Monique
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:33 PM

I agree with Lizzie about learning the language of the country you live in. I'm trying to teach literacy and French to Moroccan and Turkish ladies and they all want to learn how to call the emergency services, how to make an appointment at the doctor's or the dentist's and I insist on the fact that they must make themselves understandable. What if they're wounded in an accident and unable to give their relatives' names and addresses properly? What if they need to call the fire brigade? We've been practicing and you can't imagine how many times their houses would have burnt down because they couldn't say their address. How do they manage to explain what kind of pain they feel and how long it's been lasting? How do they communicate with their children's teachers? Should they stay like ever-lasting children, unable to manage by themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:36 PM

Well, my great, great grandfather left Spain and settled in Cardiff. Not a clue whether he spoke English, Welsh, or Spanish. Not a clue whether he danced Flamenco a la Spain or a la Belgium. (see other thread) His descendants are still in Cardiff and other parts of Wales, a swarthy looking bunch of Spanish Welshmen if ever there was! I have his name in mine, as does my mother and her brothers, as did my grandparents. I doubt he was intimidated though, rather more of the intimidating was Antonio, I'd expect, having heard about some of his descendants. :0)

And yes, lox...I agree about the medical scenario you've painted there. I actually wrote something similar, but rubbed it out again, as mine was about giving birth, so I didn't want to put anyone off their tea and toast..but it was in similar circumstances, no interpreter available, as there literally weren't enough to go round...and a woman who can't understand what her doctors and nurses are saying to her, and vice versa. Very frightening.

I worked with many patients from the Middle East, back in the 70s and 80s. I understand hugely that you can converse with people with smiles and hands and laughter and facial expressions, but at times it was so hard to try and get patients to understand what was happening to them, what *exactly* was wrong with them. If an interpreter wasn't able to be with the patient, you were scuppered, and operations had to wait until someone from one of the Arab Embassies/Health Offices was available to help you out. Heck, it's scary enough having surgery when you speak the same language, but in a different country, a very different culture, then it can be terrifying.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 06:40 PM

I agree Lizzie in such situations you have exemplfied in your recent post above ... but I disagree we need a common language to become a "one people"

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 07:00 PM

I am not trying to say that a basic degree of language skills wouldn't be helpful. My great-grandmother lived on a farm her whole life, and always had one of her children or her husband (who did speak English) to interpret for her. It may not have been an ideal situation, but she looked after her family, and they paid their taxes, and contributed a lot to their local (Sicilian) community.

The point I am making is twofold: firstly, this is not a new situation, and has probably existed as long as immigration itself; secondly, that maybe a bit of empathy might be in order when trying to understand WHY people don't learn the language or integrate very well; this is usually particularly true for women, who tend to find themselves more isolated with their lives revolving around the home. I'm speaking also from my more recent experiences in Leicester, working with women from the Pakestani and Bangladeshi communities. For them, it wasn't as easy as simply having the common courtesy to learn the language; there were huge social and cultural issues as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 07:05 PM

Of course, those scenarios could happen to ANYONE who travels to a foreign country where they do not learn the language. Medical emergenices for those who have handicaps and cannot communicate are equally horrifying. If you are unconscious, the same issues.

I don't think anyone is arguing that people who live in a country would probably find life easier if they learn the "native" tongue, but I would draw the line at having my government enforce a rule to make it the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:12 PM

So we're agreed, both sides of the argument are valid.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:18 PM

"So we're agreed, both sides of the argument are valid. "

It depends what "arguement" you are having. Frankly, I thought we were having a discussion. If it were an argument, I would have said something about nasty about your mother and her relationship with the local football team!!   

If you are asking me if there should be an "official" language, the answer is no - there is no valid reason to have one.

If you are asking me if people should learn the popular language of the country in which they live, I agree that all attempts should be made to learn it.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:28 PM

Depends on your definition of argument.

If you mean shouting match then no.

If you mean the advancement of contrasting viewpoints to establish a better understanding then yes.

Or we can call it a discussion - I don't mind - as long as we understand each other.

It seems we agree anyway.

Though I would have to ask, if there is no "official" language, then what do we do about roadsigns?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:30 PM

Ron ... when the Hispanic populace of the United States becomes the majority ... would you say Spanish would then become the popular language?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:38 PM

Road signs...it always comes down to road signs...

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:40 PM

or fast food outlets, grocery checkouts.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 08:46 PM

bill, I was reminded of this...

bilingual road signs cause accidents?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:07 PM

Oh my god ... there is no end to this can of worms!

In true Mudcat tradition the conversation has landed slap bang in the middle of sectarianism.

Then again, why not - it is relevant in more ways than one I suppose.

Have fun - I'm off to bed!

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:25 PM

Hi Kids: Huh? Well. I suppose it all depends on the circumstances...

Reminds me of the time when the Lone Ranger and Tonto were surrounded by 5000 blood thirsty Apaches. The Lone Ranger turns to Tonto and says, "Well, old friend, I guess this looks like we're finished..."

Tonto replies, "What do you mean WE?, white man..."

O.K., O.K. so the historical references are somewhat blurred. And those in the know realize that I "borrowed" that joke from some unsung comedian. Not like most of you have never used other people's material without credit. Yeesh. You know how you are...
BR

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:49 PM

Here's my response to GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz's "joke":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsYRxoQtCbo&feature=related

Native people (" Americans")
added to YouTube by thelight101 on October 01, 2006

This Discovery Channel video has the tags:
Native history people Indians tribute photo original crazy horse Cherokee Chief father art dancing tribal

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:55 PM

"Though I would have to ask, if there is no "official" language, then what do we do about roadsigns? "

Same as we have always done without an official language.

"when the Hispanic populace of the United States becomes the majority ... would you say Spanish would then become the popular language?"

IF that is the language that the majority of people speak, it would be the popular language.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 09:58 PM

keep in mind that it is estimated that only 10% of the population speaks Spanish. There is a difference between a Hispanic background and speaking Spanish as a native tongue.


"If you mean the advancement of contrasting viewpoints to establish a better understanding then yes."
That's not an arguement

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:00 PM

I usually look forward to reading Bob Ryszkiewicz's Mudcat post and if he were a Mudcat member, I probably would have sent him a pm about his message. But since Bob has chosen not to join Mudcat even though he posts here quite often, I felt the need to respond to his post on this thread. Fwiw, I don't think that Bob's borrowed joke is appropriate in the context of a serious discussion about cultural heritage or elsewhere. I'm aware that some folks may disagree with my opinion about this, and that's on them.

And for those who think that I don't have a sense of humor {humour}-about these kind of topics, you're absolutely right.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:14 PM

Ron .... I also agree ... when Spanish becomes the majority, than that is the most popular language .... as I mentioned above, cultures are constantly evolving.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:16 PM

Absolutely. "Popular" and "official" are still two separate terms and do not mean the same thing.   If we evolve into a nation where Spanish is the prevelant language, I would still say that we do not have an "official" language.    The only change is that advertisers would pay more attention to their market.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:18 PM

Yes Azizi. I know that part too. Some bad things were done to Native People. But that joke surfaced in a much more innocent time(the fifties, I think) where guys like Milton Berle and Red Skelton were on stage. You can twist any topic and look at the dark side of things if you want. Can we not laugh at our foibles from time to time?

I happen to be a big fan of Indian Art and Culture. In fact, my earliest childhood memories of being here in Canada were of being in Caugnawaga(hope I spelled it right, but I think not) and having my picture taken with an "Indian Princess" in front of a teepee. She was beautiful. What a thrill and one of my fondest memories. I mean, when you're a kid and you get to meet a real Indian Princess.. WOW. I was, I think, 7. My Dad and I would go into the woods and build birch-bark canoes, light fires and cook outdoors. Still have a tattered piece of the beaded pincushion we got there. The beaded part is still good, the rest worn away after over 50 years of use. The Great Spirit has been with me..

Respect and Love to All...BR

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:25 PM

I agree with Amos and others who think we need a common language. We need a common language as one of the glues that binds the country. This common language should be required for legal and civic activities.

I live in a community where there is a large proportion of Armenians and Koreans, and, not so many Mexicans, plus assorted Chinese, Indian and Thai. Many have been here for a long time, and many are citizens. The main thoroughfare is rife with signage in those languages, and, fortunately, English. I have my car serviced in Iran (Armenian), my wife has her hair cut in Korea, our house is cleaned bi-weekly in Mexico, and I get my (almost) daily donut from Thailand ...they all are recent immigrants and they all speak English well enough to conduct business, and even more. What they speak when they're at home or with their confreres, I don't care.

When Israel was absorbing the thousands of displaced European Jews in the late 1940s, the first thing they did was give them a crash course in the Hebrew language--most of them spoke Yiddish and the language of their country of origin, but could only read Hebrew for prayer without necessarily understanding what they actually sounded out, and maybe not even that. Israelis knew they needed a common language to integrate these immigrants, and not a polyglot of European languages mucking things up.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:35 PM

Bob, I'd have more to say to you about your last comment if I could private message you. But I won't since I can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:40 PM

And remember, you are talking to a guy with Polish Heritage. Who among you has not heard or used a "Polish Joke"? You know, those "bowling shirts" and "Polka" jokes. Come on now...Fess up. How could you do such a thing to the same people who went up against tanks with swords while riding horses? And we cannot forget Pope Jean Paul II... Bless......As long as we can laugh WITH each other, and not AT each other, we should be fine...BR

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:42 PM

Hang in there Azizi...Smile once in a while...bob

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:44 PM

Israel is a country that basically restrict immigration to a people of a common religion ... it is unique in that aspect .... most other countries in the world today do not have restricted immigration policies as such ... case in point the country's of the European Common Union ... bascally it's members now have an open borders policy. People from these countries now migrate freely amongst each other ... language is not a barrier ... a hodgpodge of European languages and things are not getting things mucked up. Hell, they even have a common currency.

Cultures keep evolving ... governments cannot mandate an official language .... it's a new world out there.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:01 PM

biLL-

I don't believe that your comment about the religious component of Israelis invalidates my point. They did not teach Hebrew for religious reasons, but for civic reasons.

While the European Union, may have less restrictive immigration policies, and I'm not sure that's entirely true...I'll check with my son...I would be interested in the immigration policies of Asian, Latin American and African countries before I could accept your premise.

JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:02 PM

I see a lot has happened since I had to go tend to 'life'...ah, well...let me note a couple of things...


" While he hasn't admitted it, Bill's incident at the supermarket ended with the individual helping solve the problem and getting Bill the service he needs."

Admit?? There is little to admit....It is true that I got my groceries, but it required her to perform the operations for me! ....it is NOT true that I got what I needed- information about why the automated system didn't work, or more accurately, why *I* couldn't make it work. She could not frame a sentence and pronounce the words to tell me of MY presumed error, so that *I* could do it correctly and thus ease both our lives. Indeed, I said that *I* gave up using the auto-check/scan lanes (at least for now) BECAUSE I dread dealing with learning the button-pushing order...and dread having her try to explain it.

And, Ron, the first part of your post of 2:56PM is one long 'straw man' (the paragraph after "Let's cut to the chase.") You knock down claims no one is making! You invent scenarios that are not suggested, then explain how terrible they are!

Then: You end with more slogans:

"Our country was built by immigrants, and our current crop of diverse cultures continue to expand on those ideals. It is one thing to encourage communication, it is another to alter our freedoms."

which ignores my suggestion that changing times need changed approaches and adaptation to different demographics....Not wholesale dismemberment of the Constitution, as you seem to think I am advocating, but real, honest, practical OPEN discussion of what will make this country better for everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:23 PM

JotSC ... citizens of the member countries of the European Common Union can immigrate amongst themselves ... my wife was on business last May to Portugal and she was astounded by the many different European workers in the office, all working cohesively amongst one another ... broken Portugese, broken English, broken Danish etc ... the business functions amazingly. If you have ever resided for a while in a foreign country ... you learn the basics of that county's language to get by as needed very quickly.

My son taught English in South Korea for 2 years ... within a couple of months he knew enough Korean to get by, knew enough to know when he was being taken advantage of, knew enough to visit Koreans homes to communicate with new found friends and their families.

In regards to Israel ... I saw a documentry recently which was on the difficulty of new immigrants learning Hebrew ... a majority cannot pass the mandatory courses, many get frustrated and leave.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 11:42 PM

"You knock down claims no one is making!"

That is not true.

Of course no one brought those claims up here in this discussion, but if you follow the story of the movement for "official language", these are exactly the claims being made. These are exactly the reasons why this has been shot down in practially every session of congress. Look it up. Check what the ACLU has been fighting for.

Bill, you only made ONE suggestion that I saw - an official language. That is not the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:37 AM

One of the funniest (ha ha funny) I ever overheard was between a young Japanese woman and a young Frenchman, each in this country only a matter of months, trying to communicate in English with each other.

English was not my first language- I spoke a dialect of German. Given my experience I tend not to believe in the need for teaching in the little kid's language. I picked it up painlessly and swiftly.

I have/had a friend who had grown up the same as I and our daughters were born three weeks apart. My friend spoke the dialect to her daughter, I did not to my daughter.

When my daughter was three, I said something to her in the dialect and she returned, I'm not Wilma Anne, you know.

Even at that age she was aware of different languages.

I once worked at a resort where a good many of the staff were from other countries (Note the Japanese woman and the Frenchman). Two men were from Germany, one friend was an Americanized German and then there was me.

The only way all four of us could speak to each other in German was to resort to 'high' German. Our dialects were too different.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 05:20 AM

OK, a question, perhaps a tricky one.

Do you think the culture of the main nation should come first in that country, or, do you feel that all cultures should be equal and the main nation should have no priority in anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:11 AM

The official language debate would be better served i think if it were clearly made specific to the USA.

It doesn't seem unfair to me to accept that the official language og France is French, or that the Official language of England is English.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:21 AM

Australia is a multicultural country. Second and third generation migrants become fluent in the dominant language and adopt many of the attitudes of the dominant cultures, while their elders remain strongly identified with their country of birth. In exchange, the broader group adjusts, reflecting the greater diversity of food, art, fashion, music and thought.

Cultural diversity can be painted as a positive or a negative by politicians. In Australia we voted out a racist government and I'm relieved to see the last of them.

Geneticist have proven that genetic diversity brings healthier, smarter kids, and creates a smarter, healthier society.

Many personal qualities vary according to cultural background, and cannot be discarded as if they were a pair of old socks.

Jeanne Tsai, an assistant professor of psychology at Stanford University, has done extensive research into the impact of culture on personality. It's interesting work and shows that despite wider social conditioning, ethnic groups hang on to psychological characteristics that reflect their preferred philosophies.

Now, if I were determining what all other people should do and think, I'd demand that the whole population should wear pink and read The Wee Book of Calvin.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:14 AM

Amos, your premise is valid. In that same light, replace the cartoons, and 'Animal House', in your analogy, with misinformation in our 'news media' and a constant bombardment of commercials. What do you get? Reality?? 'Liberals'??? Neo-Cons??? Culture???????? or a mislead public who is too dizzy to think straight?
Regards, GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:29 AM

Never mind the inherent multi-culturalism of any given society (irrespective of what balderdash Lizzie, WAV, or the BNP have to say on the matter), we are each and every one of us multi-cultural in terms of the influences that have defined and inspired every last damn thing of what we are. Our true cultural heritage is our subjective uniqueness which arises directly from how it was both acquired and perceived in the first place - and, indeed, continues to be enriched & inspired throughout our lives. It is this richness of idiosyncratic psycho-cultural complexities we ought to be celebrating - without sacrificing the essential individuality and uniqueness of that experience to a bunch of risible clichés which, according to their perpetrators, not only represent an overarching yet entiely bogus English Culture, but one we are somehow in danger of losing, giving rise to such specious bullshit as:

'ROOTS'is an inspirational song about England, about all that we have lost, which we have allowed ourselves to lose, through our apathy. It's very much about our loss of identity as well, for it seems that as a nation, we no longer seem to know who we truly are anymore. (from the Albion Heart myspace page)

As I've said in verse, English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture, society suffers. (from Walkaboutsverse)

The rich legacy of tradition, legend, myth and very real wealth of landscape and man-made structures is one of our island's richest treasures. The men and women of the British National Party are motivated by love and admiration of the outpouring of culture, art, literature and the pattern of living through the ages that has left its mark on our very landscape. We value the folkways and customs which have been passed down through countless generations. We enthuse with pride at the marvels of architecture and engineering that have been completed on these islands since the construction of the great megaliths 7,000 years ago. (from the BNP Mission Statement)

*

My own personal Cultural Heritage is more important to me than any faux-Englishness which has fuck all to do with my life and I dare say the vast majority of people living in England today, each of whom have their own unique and equally valid experience as individual and cultural human beings. For the record, here is a catalogue of my own Cultural Heritage from my own Myspace Page - entirely subjective, and by no means comprehensive:

Medieval Art in general; English Misericords; Eccliastical Foliate Heads; The Herefordshire School of Romanesque Sculpture; Traditional Folk & Ethnomusicology; The Max Hunter Archive of Folk Song ; Le Sun Ra; Duke Ellington; Glen Sweeney; Richard Coff; Paul Minns; Third Ear Band; Peter Bellamy; Jordi Savall; Hesperion XX / XXI; Montseratt Figueras; Rene Clemencic; Rene Zosso; Oor Wullie; The Broons; Desperate Dan; Dudley D. Watkins; Anne Osnowycz; The Macclesfield Psalter; The Manband; Deke Leonard; Micky Jones; Martin Ace; Clive 'Clint' John; The Global Village Trucking Company; Robert Wyatt era Soft Machine; Robert Wyatt; Amazing Blondel; The Luttrel Psalter; Dave Cousins; Strawbs; Can; Henry Purcell; William Lawes; Gregorio Paniagua; Atrium Musicae de Madrid; Back Door; Spitting on a Roast; Les Baxter; Ron Baxter; Biddy Baxter; The Rasputin Reekers; Piobaireachd; Seamus Ennis; The Fall; Mark E. Smith; Daevid Allen; Christian Vander; Will Hay; Stan Laurel; Oliver 'Babe' Hardy; The Stone Tape; Magma; Rahsaan Roland Kirk; Frank Zappa; M R James; Karl Marx; Grouch Marx; Harpo Marx; Chico Marx; Zeppo Marx; Joy Division; New Order; Martin Denny; Ennio Morricone; Harry Partch; Jim Eldon; Don Cherry; Hatfield and the North; Matching Mole; Gong; The Nonesuch Explorer Series; Art Ensemble of Chicago; Ken Hyder's Talisker; Moondog; Davie Stewart; Dragon Ash; Groundhogs; Tony (T.S.) McPhee; Shirley & Dolly Collins; John Coltrane; Val Doonican; Rolf Harris; Scott Walker; Egg; Roger Nicholson; Jake Walton; Sarah Clitheroe; Hermione Harvestman; Sundog; Dr Strangely Strange; Incredible String Band; Robin Williamson; Duncan Williamson; Malicorne; Gabriel Yacoub; Alan Stivell; Lee Scratch Perry; Augustus Pablo; Burning Spear; Linton Kwesi Johnson; Joan Miro; Marc Chagall; Paul Klee; Edward Gorey; John William Waterhouse; Derek Bailey; Evan Parker; Han Bennink; Martin Carthy; The Watersons; Clamp;

I take this on board, and more besides, and continue to do so in the sense of a cultural wonderment that in no fucking way am I ever in danger of losing. The same is true of us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:34 AM

It's the same process--debasing and degradation of the human mind by feeding it junk data. And, I suppose, never training it in data analysis.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: 3refs
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:00 AM

In 1969, following the recommendations in the report published by the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism, the Parliament of Canada adopted the first Official Languages Act. This act recognized English and French as the official languages of all federal institutions in Canada.

The province of Quebec has taken this to the next level with their own laws. All signs must be in French, or if bilingual, French must be larger(or more predominate)than English.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:55 AM

"Do you think the culture of the main nation should come first in that country, or, do you feel that all cultures should be equal and the main nation should have no priority in anything?
"

I'm having a hard time grasping what that is supposed to mean. Culture coming first for what? A better spot on line? A good table at the restaurant? Discounts?

I'm not sure I understand what you are looking for - culture is culture. Everything wraps itself into it. People develop their own. Some people enjoy Animal House and see different reasons for watching it. Live and let live.

Where is the competition and what is the prize?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: meself
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 11:37 AM

"The province of Quebec has taken this to the next level with their own laws."

Not sure what you mean by "the next level" - the next level of what?

For the benefit of non-Canucks: the thinking among those who support the (pro-French-)language laws in Quebec is that the French language in Quebec needs special protection due to its minority status in a sea of North American English.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:19 PM

"Never mind the inherent multi-culturalism of any given society (irrespective of what balderdash Lizzie, WAV, or the BNP have to say on the matter)"

You dare to connect me with the BNP one more time, and I'll find out who you are and get you for defamation of character.

Got it? Good.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:19 PM

Somewhere along the way, someone got the idea that I am in favor of some sort of official language--I'm not. Most everyone who immigrates to this country realizes that in order to benefit from living here, they need English, and most learn it surprisingly quickly. I think we should leave it like that.

My neighbor and I were chatting the other day, and she mentioned that four years ago, she spoke no English. She teaches Calculus and such things at a local institution of higher learning, and expresses herself with the subtlety and nuance that one expects of someone with an advanced degree. It seemed odd to think that there was ever a time she couldn't speak English.

The kids speak English like the Americans that they are. It is very jarring to hear them exchange occasional sentences in equally good Russian.

Though many say that Americans don't know any language but English, in point of fact, as I pointed out above, there are a great many American homes where English is not the primary language. Estimates run to about 20%.

Often, the immigrant"s children speak English better than their parents, and take on a lot of the day to day family responsibilities at an early age. For them, letting go of the old language is important, because it meant the family had finally become assimilated--Their kids often have to learn the old language as adults, because the parents stopped using it in the home as soon as it was possible.

My favorite example here is Yiddish--in living memory, there were large districts in many major American cities where all business and social life was conducted in Yiddish--now it's a dead language.

So if any of you are worried about America becoming a Spanish speaking nation, it ain't gonna happen--the kids all speak English.   Too bad, in a way, because Spanish is one of the best languages--

PS-As to the quilt, I finally got it back, as well as the five dollars or so that I paid up front for the repairs in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:23 PM

From me:

"You dare to connect me with the BNP one more time, and I'll find out who you are and get you for defamation of character."

Right, (Insane Beard), I've got who you are now, from your Myspace page. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:25 PM

In North Wales, most things are in...er..Welsh. I'm not sure how many of the Welsh themselves actually understand the signs. Even the graffiti's in Welsh. I bought a Welsh/English dictionary, just so I could find out what it said, as I kept seeing the same thing over and over..

It was about the English. :0) Uh Oh...

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:15 PM

" Most everyone who immigrates to this country realizes that in order to benefit from living here, they need English, and most learn it surprisingly quickly. I think we should leave it like that. "

Precisely!!!   Water finds it's own level, attempts to divert it usually won't work.    I honestly believe that the issues that were brought up here might be happening more frequently then they were 10 or 20 years ago, but it is not a unique situation. It is unfair to categorize anyone who speaks a different language as "not wanting to learn" the language as generalizations are usually wrong too.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:22 PM

You dare to connect me with the BNP one more time, and I'll find out who you are and get you for defamation of character

I'm not connecting you with the BNP, Lizzie - just pointing out that they, like you and Walkaboutsverse, hold similarly simplistic views about the vulnerability and preciousness of certain aspects of English Culture which (along with the vulnerability and preciousness of same) I personally regard as balderdash.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:28 PM

Can someone explain, in a paragraph or less, exactly what the concern is about "losing" English culture? Specifically, WHAT is in danger of being lost?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:32 PM

Ok insanebeard, so you've listed some of your cultural influences.

Well done.

And Your experience of England is different from that expressed by some others here.

"My own personal Cultural Heritage is more important to me than any faux-Englishness which has fuck all to do with my life"

Ok - so all your're interested in is your own interests.

And if someone elses interests and experiences differ from yours they risk falling into the category of "faux englishness".

Well that's very sad.

I'm open to new experiences and after living in England for about 7 years I was invited on a trip round England during the summer months.

Having grown up in Hong Kong, my experience of England had until that point been that it was cold and miserable.

But then I discovereed the "quintissential English Summer"

And I am glad I did.

The Church bells rang, and the cricketers wore their whites on the village green.

The assumption you make is that those cricketers had white skin too -something which nobody else here has said anything about - in fact, some of them had brown skin and were as integral to the Idyll as their white playing partners.

My views part ways with lizzies where I perceive her as refusing to accept the reality of class and to accept that there is a definite workig class culture in England which deserves recognition as much as any other sector of society.

You make the mistake of denying the existence of the village green and church bells.

All these things exist and are a part of English heritage.

And thank you Insane Beard, though you may feel the earlier part of your post is so important that it deserves a place (word for word) on two threads simultaneously, I'm afraid that that is more reflective of your ego, as indeed is the idea that if it isn't your experience, or if it has "F*** all to do with you" then it is "faux"

You are not nearly as open minded as you claim to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:33 PM

Here you go, Ron.

'Song for Saint George' written by Gez

It was this time last year when they told us to hide
To hide our St. George Flag away
"Take them down from your windows, they litter our streets
If you don't, they'll be much hell to pay
And we'll fine you if you choose to, so it's best you choose not
It's worse than the Union Jack
For St. George is dead and buried
We suggest you sit down, shut up, and please don't answer back

Just sit down
Just sit down
Just sit down
No, don't stand your ground"

On St. George's Day morning I want to run through my street
Find its Bank Holiday with her parties so sweet
Send my love to my country, be proud of this place
See the flags flown from windows, with a smile on my face
But I fear Monday morn' we'll regret we were born
In this country of green promised land
And we'll trudge off to work with no pride in our heart
And no love for our own countrymen
Oh the Irish - St. Patrick, The Welsh - David's Day
The Scottish - St. Andrew I'm told
Celebrated by all who arouse one and all
Old St. George has been left in the cold

Don't sit down!
Don't sit down!
Don't sit down!
Just stand your ground!

On St. George's Day morning I want to run through my town
Find its Bank Holiday with my neighbours around
Send my love to my country, be proud of this place
See the flags flown from windows, with a smile on my face
I know is I'm small, yet I try to stand tall
For my country on St. George's Day
Raise a glass to Old England my neighbours and friends
So they know that he's not gone away
I'll run with my flag in the cool winter spring
Through the fields and the streets of this land
You can take Old St. George from our windows and doors
In my heart there remains an England

You can take Old St. George from our windows and doors
In my heart there remains an England
You can take old St. George from my windows and doors
In my heart there remains an England

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:38 PM

Ron, when I said "You knock down claims no one is making!", I thought it was clear that I meant no one in THIS discussion. If you include everyone who says things you disagree with, and 'insinuate' that it is also my position, I can't keep up.



"Bill, you only made ONE suggestion that I saw - an official language."


to reply AGAIN, and add to what M.Ted said...*I* did not **ADVOCATE** an official language. I said 'it might help'. I have no campaign, no formal proposition.....I have not decided whether I would support any such proposal, and would not until I saw the details. I even said back at 2:19PM yesterday ". I AM sure a common language, as Lizzie Cornish notes, would help...if it was voluntary instead of manditory, that's even better."

That's at least 3 times I have made clear my position.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:45 PM

lox, I recognise there was a class system in this country, absolutely, but I also recognise that it needs to be laid to rest now, because until we just see ourselves as people, the class system will do no more than cause anger, resentment and pain.

My ex-mother-in-law, who still lives with me, is now 94 years old, and she sees herself as 'working class' above all else. She's voted Labour all her life, because 'that's what my class does' and if you take her into any of the big houses of England, she'd just snort and say "what does the likes of me want, with the likes of 'them', some fancy lord and lady!"

I don't have that feeling. I don't see people as better than me, or higher than me, or more important than me. I don't see people that I'm better than, or judge them purely because of what 'class' box I decide to put them in, they're just people, we're all just people.

The English have never been allowed to forget their 'class' and it's caused hatred, much bitterness and resentment for way too long. That's what I dislike so much about it all. It's its own form of 'racism' isn't it? "My class is better/worse than your class" rather than "my skin colour is better/worse than your skin colour'

English 'class'



Do the Americans, Canadians or Australians see themselves as different 'classes'?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:45 PM

It is clear to me that one part of our mutual cultural heritage is a highly developed ritual of intermiscommunication!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 01:47 PM

Bill - this is a general discussion, it is not a one-way conversation between you and I. I am not just writing comments in response to you.   If you need clarification, let's do it offline instead of sidetracking the conversation.   I did not insinuate YOUR position but commented on items that you and others said. I know you did not advocate a position, but I commented on your suggestion. Pretty clear as far as I can see, but I apologize it folks like yourself do not see it.

I understand that conversations like this are sometime hard to keep up with, but let's not spoil a good conversation.   I respect your opinion and thoughts, even if I do not agree with your statements. Let's not turn this personal.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:08 PM

Lizzie - Not knowing the particulars, it sounds similar to our flap with the Confederate flag. Because certain groups tend to wrap their politics around a flag or a symbol, the meaning changes.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:12 PM

Lox - you miss the point. Society is made up of individuals each of whom have their unique cultural experience. No one is pushing this subjective cultural experience as definitively authentic in any sense other than by way of personal immediacy, which is in a state of flux anyway. We find our friends, our common-minds, and from time to time certain points of multiple contact emerge that might even begin to resemble a consensus, but in no way will it ever become an absolute, thank God, though there those for whom that illusion will be enough.

And yes, there are village greens and church bells; but there are also landfills, inner-city no go areas, motorways, underpasses, council estates, waste grounds, and human and cultural deprivations that would make the third world blush. But the suburban ghetto engenders more beauty in terms of culture as any pretty little English village which priced out the original villagers years ago. You might see that as being somehow typical, quintessential, and maybe desirable - I see it as an atypical & highly reactionary anomaly preserved purely for the benefit of a very tiny minority.

England Culture is the reality of cultural life for every single person resident in England. In this respect I fear the rather exclusive clichés put forward (such as those in the song below) fall appallingly short of the mark and are, therefore, a Faux-Englishness which in being of no use, can only ever function as ornament.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:21 PM

Lizzie asked if there are "class" distinctions in the U.S. and Canada.    Certainly.   I cannot afford a fancy car or a mansion, but I live in a modest home which makes me middle class, and there are those who cannot afford a home and live from paycheck to paycheck - if they can find work.

While their are "distinctions" such as white collar and blue collar, I don't think our issues are as deep as what we are witnessing from our English pals. Our culture is multi-level and we do not expect a one-size-fits-all solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:37 PM

"But the suburban ghetto engenders more beauty in terms of culture as any pretty little English village which priced out the original villagers years ago."

That is such crap. Both have our culture running through them.

England is not *just* surburban ghettos....it is a mixture of ALL things.

How many rubbish dumps have you sat in then? I've sat in quite a few..because my brother, who has severe dyslexia, made his living off them. I've spoken to 'the pikeys' as the real gypsies called them, I've seen not a great deal of culture amongst them. I watched as Leigh took his cookers and his fridges from them, then turned them into working items, which he sold to the 'posh' people, as you'd no doubt call them, in his small Somerset village. They were good people though, kind people, church going people, who attended their beautiful village church, and their village fete. They worked hard to have their May Day festival too, with their May Queen and their Maypole...They too loved England...

Don't give me the class warfare of 'them and us' because there is only 'We'...good or bad. And my brother still, to this day, makes his living from rubbish dumps, and his friends are those who can't write, or read, other men who've been told they were stupid and dull and dim witted by teachers who were so 'intelligent' that they didn't even understand the wonder of the very people they were lambasting. These people who make their living from the land, from your rubbish and mine, but they are people who know instinctively how to build their own houses, and do so...they are so often deeply talented in many, many ways.

And country people work with the seasons, love the seasons, they know a great deal about our culture, our heritage and our history. Geez, thie Inner City, Urban crap really gets up my nose. England is not JUST the inner cities and the ghettos, it is far, far more, and those who try to perpetuate this myth that only the Inner Cities matter and that we should all live our lives as if we lived in an Inner City are talking through their backsides. There is also terrible hardship amongst many out here in the countryside, so I can assure you that it's not only the city people who are hurting.

Hidden Voices - The Story of the English Countryside


Ron, in my opinion, any flag that falls into hands that take it into disrepute, should be taken back from them, so that once more it stands for Good.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:42 PM

As I've said, "My father liked to drink, but that doesn't make me licorice!"

And since my mother is Jewish, that fact dioesnh't make me that either.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:44 PM

I'm not disagreeing with you Lizzie - but there is a danger that in attempting to take back such a symbol you become aligned with their ideals - even if that is the farthest from the truth. For instance, the swaztika has significance beyond the Nazis, but it is rarely attempted to be utilized anymore. I think there comes a point where we have to wonder what is more important - keeping alive a "tradition" that brings hurt to others or realizing that traditions are living events that need to adapt to the times. Personal pride seems to become wrapped in patriotism and it only ends with divided communities that do not communicate and work together.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:48 PM

Ron - that is very wise.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 02:59 PM

You know what it can all be boiled down to In my humble opinion.
Respect others and treat them as you would want treated

if we all did that, language, differences and everything else wouldn't matter.

It amazes me that when I traveled to other countries, a smile and a hand shake was pretty much universal. I ended up having coffee with my family and a guy's family that I met to ask directions in italy sitting on his porch. we could barely speak to each other. But the kindness and the friendship cut through all of it and it was a wonderful time. His wife made coffee brought out pastries and we sat and laughed barely able to communicate but he understood and so did I and our families. Wonderful people, kindness, and love have no single culture or language

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 03:33 PM

I know what you mean, olddude. It's not hard to get along if you want to get along. No barrier to great, as they say. Over the years though, it's occurred to me that there are some that don't want to get along, no matter how small the barriers. So it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 03:45 PM

I'll never let my flag become like the swastika, Ron.   And all those who now turn away from it already, are just paving the way for that to happen. There are some things worth trying to turn around, and the flag of England, is one of them.

And yes, Dan, love is the universal language, for all of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 03:58 PM

"There are some things worth trying to turn around, and the flag of England, is one of them."

I wish I had an answer. I don't know all the particulars so I can't comment on whether it is worth it.

That is the same arguement you hear from folks in Southern states that are tied to the confederacy.   Unfortunately everyone seems to have their own self-pride and sense of patriotism that seems to cloud judgement and prevent any sort of compromise or understanding of the hurt from others.   

Again, not knowing fully the significance of St. George, I do not want anyone to think I am comparing the meaning behind it to the meaning behind our confederate flag, but rather the controversy and line-in-the-sand stance that everyone takes - and ultimately lose behind.

At the same time, I know a lot of conservatives who wrap themselves in the stars and stripes as if they own it, and liberals have shied away from jingoism.   I do think that the symbol is much stronger here and it is impossible to desecrate the flag as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 05:19 PM

But Ruth, you and I both know that the swastika is alive and well and is chalked on many doorsteps in Leicester alongside the Om symbol and showered with flower petals - should that be discouraged because of the bad connotations? - and just as I carry a present of a ganesha on my person at the request of a friend for whom it means a lot that I do so, I reserve the right to have a swastika tattood in henna on my wrist or the back of my hand.

Black people reclaimed the word Nigger, and for a short time this had the effect of taking the sting out of the word - that is until the music industry absorbed hip hop and recycled the whole thing as a licence for white people to say the word without fear of retribution - as parodied beautifully by Chris Rock - "when is it ok ... " etc

Lizzie, On the subject of differences, I think the first step to understanding is recognizing differences - you are English, I am Irish, you are a woman, I am a man, and that's just for starters. If we put our hands next to each other we would see that our skin is not the same colour or texture even though we fall under the umbrella of white.

We do not perpetuate anything by recognizing these differences, and we do not perpetuate any conflict between us by recognizing that we hold differing opinions, have different senses of humour etc etc.

And likewise, by recognizing that there really are differences between middle and working class moralities, humour, world view, activities etc etc and that different sectors of society have distinct characters to be celebrated and embraced, we promote harmony, and we do not prolong divides.

What prolongs the divide is the entrenched middle class view that the working class should stop making excuses for its lewd rude uncouthness and take responsibility for itself and develop more social awareness, and the entrenched working class view that the middle class should spend less time giving judgemental, sniffy lectures and develop a sense of humour or f*** off.

That's usually how the fights I've seen have started.

Working class culture is responsible for a great deal of what is really valuable in English culture, and football and football culture are central to working class culture.

We take the tube every day and we count at least one football scarf on each carriage.

Underneath the jackets are the team colours.

Familys go out with matching shirts - mum - dad - the boys and the girls.

They sing the songs and they feel a sense of belonging to their town and to each other.

Nowadays they are Black, white, Asian, male, female, young and old.

Just like the rest of us.

And while rivalry exists, they connect with each other and with those from Sao Paolo, Ankara, Gdansk, Rotterdam, Buenos Aires, Naples ... etc

The reason America remains the exception is that the blue collar classes are more into hockey and basketball. That's where the grit is in American sport.

And just as young Irish men wielding bombs don't make all Irish bad, or young moslem men wielding bombs don't make all moslems bad, or young black men carrying guns and knives in New Cross and Peckham where I live don't make all black people bad, so stupid young drunk violent men wearing football scarves will never define working class footie culture as yob culture, but for many middle class observers, there is no difference.

I'm not saying that you fall into this category, but the class divide will exist as long is middle class people continue to pooh pooh its existence and to blame it on the loutish stubbornness of the working classes themselves who seem proud to live in their own filth.

Insane Beard, I thnk your last point in fact echoes my view - I don't think anyone is trying to push a perception of English society as being one thing and another. I think what we have here is a series of different accounts. Sorry for the kneejerk tone of my earlier comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 05:40 PM

Lost me with the footie and yob business--

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 05:44 PM

Read back through thread - if not this one then the one on above the line.

In short

- industrial revolution

- forced migration into cities

- loss of rural traditions and culture

- reinvention of working urban man

- footie at the centre of new identity

- footie the working mans game

- an essential component of English cultural heritage.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 05:53 PM

lox, imo, your statement would have been more accurate if you had said that some Black people tried to or are trying to reclaim the N word* and perhaps for some of those people some or all of the offensiveness was removed from that word.

However, for me and I believe for most African Americans at this time, the offensiveness has not been removed and probably cannot be removed from that N word. Everytime I read it, I cringe.

*I'll not write it, but you know which word I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 06:13 PM

blimey - lots more wisdom there. I'd like to have a pint with you sometime, lox.

I think my point about Ron's statement earlier is that sometimes, maybe it's okay to say "It's just a symbol." Sometimes maybe a symbol can become so sullied by its associations that it's impossible to reclaim, and the most positive thing is to let it go and to focus on the stuff that really matters. You make a valid point about the swastika in Leicester, but would I feel comfortable as a white person having it on my door? Would, say, a German person feel comfortable trying to re-claim that symbol?

I'm not actually saying that this is how I feel about the flag of St George. In fact, to me the widespread use of the flag of St George is a relatively recent phenomenon, possibly dating from the Euro 96 tournament which was played in England, complete with THAT song. Do you remember when the George's Cross suddenly appeared in those little flag holders on cars and in people's windows? it was actually the Union Jack that was dragged through the mud by the hooligans and skinheads on the 80s - my take is that the promotion of the English flag was a direct response to that, an acknowledgement that the Union Jack was not really redeemable, at least not at that time, but that the flag of St George might offer a more positive symbol of English identity. Of course, since then the BNP has tried to co-opt the St George's Cross too, but I don't think it has anything like the pejorative connotations that the Union Jack did.

But symbols will always change their meaning, won't they? So long as people and societies themselves change. The symbols we choose as emblems are surely no more fixed than we are.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 06:20 PM

Agreed Azizi

I think my post fairly clearly implied that ultimately it proved unsuccessful.

The word was born venemous and that is why attempts to reclaim it have failed. Unlike other words that have been abused for derogatory purposes, this word only existed for one purpose and that was to degrade people. It was never redefined.

That is why it remains inextricably associated with violence in popular culture with rare exceptions provided by Chris Rock and a handful of other satirists - though the word is still satirized based on its original derogatory meanings.

Truth is, in the absence of an alternative definition, it wasn't redefined and so it could never really be said to be reclaimed, unlike things like the english flag and the swastika which can be defined differently and therefore can be reclaimed by those who care for their more constructive definitions.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: meself
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:05 PM

It will be a long time yet before many of us can see a swastika without making the Nazi association. Honestly, I think you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise ... I suppose you can use it however you want, but don't be surprised when people misinterpret your motives ...

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: meself
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:07 PM

(which I am sure are blameless, based on the record of your postings here).

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:12 PM

Sorry to disagree with you lox...but...   :0)


"And likewise, by recognizing that there really are differences between middle and working class moralities, humour, world view, activities etc etc and that different sectors of society have distinct characters to be celebrated and embraced, we promote harmony, and we do not prolong divides."

No, for me, the exact opposite is true. By saying that, you are saying that people are born a certain way, that they are **born** a certain 'class' and will always remain so. People are people. They are not a 'class'.

"What prolongs the divide is the entrenched middle class view that the working class should stop making excuses for its lewd rude uncouthness and take responsibility for itself and develop more social awareness, and the entrenched working class view that the middle class should spend less time giving judgemental, sniffy lectures and develop a sense of humour or f*** off."

No. It is *nothing* to do with damned 'class'...it's to do with each person deciding to either behave like a selfish, borish twit, or to think of others and decide to be their own person, forge their own way. People have brains, lox, and those brains are fitted with a 'choice' button. It is the choices you make in your life which define you as a person, and nothing else.

"I'm not saying that you fall into this category..."

Thank you, because I fall into NO category, and I do not put others into categories, other than thoughtful people or right pains in the arses.

"...but the class divide will exist as long is middle class people continue to pooh pooh its existence and to blame it on the loutish stubbornness of the working classes themselves who seem proud to live in their own filth."

What the heck *is* a 'middle class person'? In fact, could you define all these classes? There used to be three as I recall from days gone by, Upper, Middle and Working Class. What is each born with, which defines them, apparently for life? Or is it something you *acquire* along the path of life?

I was raised by a man who saw no class, no colour, only people, and he loved people. He was a quiet, very gentle gentleman, courteous, kind and thoughtful. Dad died without a penny to his name, never owned his own house ever, at times couldn't afford to pay his bills, but he poured love into me, and that's what he left me, that was my inheritance. And it is through his eyes that I see the world, as well as through my own.

Segregation, for to me that's what class is about, as much as it is about race, is always bad, always.

Until England let's go of it, we ain't going far, and the whole class issue has been stoked and stirred for decades by those with huge problems on their shoulders. It needs to have the flames put out forever so that a new England can rise from the ashes of bitterness, which have divided it for so very long.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:13 PM

I am rather inclined to be more offended by a social system that defines social worth by wealth than one that depends on other indicia.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:20 PM

Here's a picture to challenge you ...

... Swastika reclaimed!!

http://www.sledgehammertotheface.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/notanazi.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:24 PM

the link's not working, lox...

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:31 PM

Lizzie,

We often discuss inter culture diversity on this thread.

It is important to recognize intra culture diversity too.

I too recognize people for who they are and do not discriminate on grounds of race, culture, class, sex or sexuality.

However, to deny that there are different races, cultures, classes, sexes or sexualities or to impose taboos on referring to them or celebrating their individuality within the whole would be as unfair as ... well ... saying that one shouldn't celebrate ones englishness.

Whaddaya say?

Segregation is when people wish to be seperated from groups that they find incompatible with themselves for whatever reason.

Yes People are people - not a race.

But different races are clearly recognizable.

People are people - not a sex

But (in general) peoples sex is recognizable.

etc etc

and good because we live in a diverse society.

There are many different sub cultures within British culture all of which are valid and that includes observable recognizable class distinctions.

Its not an opinion, its an observation.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:33 PM

swastika reclaimed again ...

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:36 PM

Maybe it'll work this time

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:37 PM

sorry mate, still not working...

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:39 PM

Hey - mud elves - can you delete my posts with the links - for some reason they don't work from here.

I'm going to try again a different way.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:41 PM

"However, to deny that there are different races, cultures, classes, sexes or sexualities or to impose taboos on referring to them or celebrating their individuality within the whole would be as unfair as ... well ... saying that one shouldn't celebrate ones englishness.

Whaddaya say?"

I say I'm right with you there on everything except for....ummmmm....(she whistles quietly).....ummmmmm....'classes'   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:44 PM

Just for what it's worth....Having toured around a bit, myself, I find it completely practical, and smart to learn the language of the country of what currency is being used there. It's just dumb not to. As so far as people's reluctance to learn English here, it's really up to them, no matter how completely stupid that is! I think the thing that people resent about immigrants who don't learn the language(s), is the contempt that goes along with it, and that of course spreads to those who tend to defend such stupid, belligerent, behavior, and attitude. America is no less a 'free-for-all' than your own home.....come to think of it, it is our home!!
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:52 PM

Wait a minute, I forgot my helmet. O.K. Go on...BR

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:54 PM

I know thats your view.

I'm arguing that it is an inconsistent one as long as classes can be observed to exist.

Maybe the stumbling block is the word "class".

If we described English culture as being characterised by intracultural diversity, then to truly embrace English culture as a whole we must accept and embrace football culture as it has a valid and meaningful role to play and much of the humour and behaviour that goes with it is misunderstood by those who are not a part of it.

And I am not talking about the 1 or 2% who are violent or otherwise intimidating in their behaviour.

Go to a football match - not at old trafford or stamford bridge - but somewhere like wigan wanderers or birmingham city.

There's a banter that goes on - some of it is pretty rough but in context is laced with defiant brazen humour and can be pretty funny.

It's not generally my thing, but then I'm a bit middle class like that ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:58 PM

Let me start by saying I did not read all the responses to the initial post. For my own family, we have certain traditions that we keep alive but there aren't a lot of them. My husband and I will soon be adopting 2 children from Ethiopia and we will do what we can to educate them about their heritage (through education and exposure) and to incorporate some Ethiopian traditions into our lives. :)

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:08 PM

Ruth,

If you search for "Hindu Swastika" on google images and scroll down, you will find on the bottom left of the screen a photo of a young innocent happy Indian lad wearing a red shirt with a white circle on the front containing a black swastika - just like the Nazi flag.

Go to the page and you will find the comment "he can't wear that"

My response to this comment was - why not? - it's his really and he should be allowed to wear it if he wants to promote its true meaning.

Besides - just think how it would haave infuriated hitler! (twat!)

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:09 PM

I'd like to see more discussion about classes. In the US we say - and feel - that we are classless (Oh! Stop it!!) but anyone over the age of 10 recognizes there is a dichotomy at work that is not so easily dismissed.

In Juneau, Alaska, we have something that to me is unique. In a town of more than 30,000 people - of all classes *g* - many, many of us are on a first name basis with our mayor and probably with our governor, as well as with any other head of officialdom. (I can't say that is currently true - Sarah Palin doesn't actually live in Juneau and therefore is not seen as frequently.)

But in previous administrations the governor walked to work from the governor's house just 4 blocks away and the chances were very good that he knew daily walkers by name.

I've known the mayor for some years. In official venues he is Mr. Mayor to me but in informal gatherings and on the dance floor he is Bruce.

This is true for practically everyone I know. It is even true for a certain panhandler I know- previous governors were known to him as Tony, Wally and Steve.

To share a story that I was told by a tourist some years back: This man in t-shirt and shorts came to the local house museum where I was the caretaker, docent and manager. While I was serving him tea, he said, I've got to tell someone about this. As it happens I am a lawyer so, as lawyers will do, I wandered into your court building today just to look around. I was standing there when this man in a suit and tie rushed up to me and pointed at this surfing scene on my t-shirt and exclaimed, I've surfed there!

Well, that was neat so we stood there for awhile talking about that marvelous - and little known - place and then the man invited me to come for coffee so we could talk some more. He introduced himself to me; he was Justice Carpeneti from the Alaska Supreme Court! That just boggles my mind. He didn't know I am a lawyer. Look at the clothes I am wearing! This would never happen in my hometown.

OK, so Juneau is different. Which is one of the things I love about this town. We come nearer to being class-free than many a place I have known.

However, the one thing I keep coming to in my mind about class in the US is - I'm not sure I can describe it accurately but I'm going to try.

You know when someone gets elected President of the United States? They may be awed at the honor and grateful to be given the chance to serve- but somehow they all seem to accept that the office is not above them, that somehow the knowldge they could be president some day has always been there.

That's when I know that I'm not upper class- there is no way in hell I could accept such a thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:09 PM

lox - Birmingham City? I thought you were suggesting places to weatch football, not panto. :D

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:17 PM

"My response to this comment was - why not? - it's his really and he should be allowed to wear it if he wants to promote its true meaning."

Theoretically, you're right. Practically, depending on where he wears it, people might see it differnently and respond to him accordingly.

I still maintain that the response and connotation would be very different if it were a German wearing it, even if they had precisely the same intention. And to be honest, what would they really be achieving? As I said before, it's just a symbol. And maybe it's not a bad thing to have some symbolds that have been so comprehensively perverted that they stand as a warning to us never to repeat certain mistakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:19 PM

My insomnia is clearly fading, as my bad typing will attest. Night night.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:21 PM

I was raised by a man who saw no class, no colour, only people, and he loved people.
-Lizzie Cornish 1

Your father sounds like he was a wonderful person, Lizzie. He raised you well.

But with regard to seeing no colour {or "color" as we "UnitedStaters" spell it}, I hope that people don't interprete this to mean that they should never mention their or another person's race or ethnicity. I don't think that people should pretend that race doesn't matter at all-because as long as institutional racism exists, race does matter. Also, as I shared in my earlier comment, I believe that membership in a particular race and ethnicity helps shapes a person's worldview and experiences, By ethnicity I'm including ethnic sub-groups within a particular race such as African Americans who are Gullahs, Creoles, and Carribean born, or born in a particular nation and ethnic community in   continental Africa.


Also, I've noticed in real life that some people are afraid to mention his or her race or another person's race for fear of saying the wrong thing, or offending a Black person or another person who is considered to a "minority" {I prefer the catch-all referent "people of color" to the term "minority"}. However, I believe that racial referents should be acceptable in day to day interactions when they are used as descriptors. But maybe referring to a person's skin tone is an example of something that's more acceptable for people of color to do -depending on the circumstances and the way we mention it-than it is for White people to do. For instance, in attempting to describe a Black person to another Black person, it's pretty common to mention that person's gender and his or her skin color {as in "He's light skinned. or "He's a little darker than me"}. But then again, if a White person who isn't used to being around Black people were to describe a Black person by skin tone, that person may not know all the different variations of what we mean by "light skin" or "brown skin" including "red bone". Do White people make those kinds of references in descriping another White person?

**

In addition, Lizzie, I think in the USA, the three classes are different than what you listed as the classes for Great Britain {upper class, middle class, and working class}. I'd list the economic classes in the USA as upper, middle, and poor. I think that the class system in the USA is much more fluid than in Europe, and a number of people in the working class would be considered part of the middle class {many of the White collar working class would be and some of the Blue Collar working class}. There are working poor {those working for minimum wage, or working half time or even working two jobs} and there are non-working poor-often because they can't find a job.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:24 PM

"I know thats your view.

I'm arguing that it is an inconsistent one as long as classes can be observed to exist.

Maybe the stumbling block is the word "class"."



Noooooo....the stumbling blocks are the blocks that you're surrounding 'people' with.

But I don't 'observe' class, I observe 'people', so how can I see something which I don't see?

"It's not generally my thing, but then I'm a bit middle class like that ;-)"

Oh, poo. LOL

Anyway, I don't like football, it's boring. All those namby pambies falling down crying because someone kicked the ball at them...and all that money they get paid. Yeesh! Besides, it was never the same after George Best gave it up, no-one dribbles like George. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:31 PM

Azizi asks: "Do White people make those kinds of references in descriping another White person?"

It is common when describing someone to another person to say, for instance, S/He has the typical coloring of other redheads.

Or we might say, His blue eyes are vivid next to his white, white skin and black hair.

Is that the kind of thing you mean?

To me personally, just about the prettiest skin around is the warm toffee-colored skin some people have. Somehow the skin seems thicker and more pliant and it looks good with just about anything they could possibly wear.

The comedienne Wanda Sykes has that kind of skin.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:35 PM

Hi, Azizi! :0)

You know, I have terrible vision, as in ****really, really**** terrible vision, almost a +10, so when I take my contact lenses out, I couldn't tell you what nationality people are, barely even their skin colour, certainly couldn't see *any* of their facial features, not a bloomin' thing.

I learned long ago to 'see' with my ears, because that way, you learn far more about someone. All that matters is the soul of a person, and the choices they've made in their lives. Nothing else, not colour, or money, or riches, or country, or success...just their soul.

Blind people 'see' people. And they see them without barriers.

And now, it's time to take my lenses out once more, and be plunged into a different world, where no stumbling blocks exist,,'cos it's sooo late over here in the UK, or rather, early. Yikes! 1.35am!!

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:40 PM

Yes azizi we do - and I personally am just about as descriptive with all sorts of skin and have thankfully just about rid myself of my inhibitions on the subject.

But white includes pale white, milky white, "brown", freckled, "dark" (all still descriptive of white skin).

So I'll mix and match terms.

John was a light skinned black guy,

Fred was a dark skinned white guy.

Bill and george are an albino white guy and an albino black guy respectively.

All in the name of practical descriptive usefulness.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:42 PM

I like to note that I wrote my last post prior to reading GUEST,lox -PM Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:31 PM post and the ones that came after that.

I'm pretty much in agreement with what Lox said except that it's not always true that "different races are clearly recognizable."
Physical clues such as skin color, eye shapes, facial features, and hair texture can often be used to determine another person's racial group. However, there are people who are of "ambiguous race or ethnicity". You can't tell by looking at them what race or ethnicity they "belong" to. This can be very difficult for these children, youth and adults-particularly in settings like school where unfortunately, racial divisions still occur.

Also, some racial groups look like other racial groups {for instance some Latinos and some Middle Eastern people} and the prejudice that people have toward Middle Easterns now because of 911 has also affected some Latinos. Furthermore, some people who are members of one racial group look like they might be members of another racial group. And I'm not necessarily speaking of people who have a biological parent from two different racial/ethnic groups. To return to my comment about skin color, some people who have two Black birth parents may be much lighter than a person who has one Black birth parent and one White birth parent. For that reason and more, referring to a person as "biracial" may be informational, but in real life in the USA, those racially mixed people who have one White birth parent and one Black birth parent are considered Black. {Barack Obama, for example}. Of course, that one drop of black blood rule is inherently racist...

My main point is that using physical clues such as skin color to determine a person's race can get real complicated and does create difficulties for those people in part because of internal and external racial assumptions and racial rejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:02 PM

Thanks for your responses to my question about whether White people describe other White people by skin complexion. I've never heard any White person use such descriptors.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 11:40 PM

From: GUEST,lox
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:08 PM

Ruth,
'..... you will find on the bottom left of the screen a photo of a young innocent happy Indian lad wearing a red shirt with a white circle on the front containing a black swastika - just like the Nazi flag.
Go to the page and you will find the comment "he can't wear that"

My response to this comment was - why not? - it's his really and he should be allowed to wear it if he wants to promote its true meaning.'

FYI:    Long before Hitler used the 'broken cross' swastika, it was a
native American symbol. However, it faced the other way, than the Nazi one. It had absolutely nothing to do with the one used by the Germans, and had a completely different meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: meself
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:07 AM

"I've never heard any White person use such descriptors."

And, as a white person, I've pretty much only encountered such descriptors in books (e.g., "her creamy bosom was thrusting from its" - oh, never mind). Maybe it's an English/Irish(etc.) thing. Among white North Americans, in my experience, the hue of other white skins is usually mentioned only when it's one extreme or the other - you might hear "dark complected" (or "dark complexion)" or "really, really white skin". That's all I've ever heard.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:11 AM

What's the whole thing about white, black, brown,yellow, red?? After God created man, he looked at it it and said 'It is Good'..what's the problem???

(Oh, I forgot....liberals don't like the idea of God....not sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:28 AM

As meself said: "...mentioned only when it's one extreme or the other - you might hear "dark complected" (or "dark complexion)" or "really, really white skin..."

I think it is probably because the shade of a white person's skin is not important to another white person- historically as long as the person is clearly identifiable to the other person's mind as 'white'.

I can only imagine the state of mind of a person whose color or shade of skin is crucial in establishing his or her role in mainstream society.

As it happens, in my family there are quite a few African-American members- I just realized that in all cases they are male, I wonder if the reception would be different toward a female? I hope not - and they range in shade from mellow tan to very dark indeed. The children's shades also vary widely; in one case the brother is pale, the girl is dark. Both are gorgeous.

The next generations are the ones that give me hope. Their culture will inevitably be different from ours but we are the ones who set it in motion.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:00 AM

"My main point is that using physical clues such as skin color to determine a person's race can get real complicated and does create difficulties for those people in part because of internal and external racial assumptions and racial prejudice."

Until relatively recently, if you wanted to assess the ethnicity of an audience at an arts event, it was considered appropriate to do a "head count", identifying all of the non-white attenders and possibly trying to categorise them in a very broad way. This was considered necessary because there were usually not that many of them, to be honest, and doing surveys, where the audience can choose (or not) to take part, might not reveal the true proportions of ethnically diverse attenders.

However, nowadays this is no longer considered acceptable, because there are too many assumptions that can be made by the person doing the counting, and because ethnicity is so complex - so the only credible method at the moment is self-identification.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:07 AM

I thought liberals were above the race thing. Apparently not. Is that why so many were taken in by Obama??...just to appear 'hip', and launder their guilt???

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:11 AM

GFS, shame you got off onthe God thing, becase you are right about the swastika.

I'm not sure that the US really understands "class" as used in Europe. As I understand the USA, "class" is determined solely by wealth. In the UK it is much more closely linked to speech, manners, and parentage (and grandparentage etc) - and "U" "non-U" things.

In France a ci-devant "de" (the "particule de nobilite") goes a long way - but again speech and behaviour patterns seem to be important.

Germany I find less easy to understand.

Spain and Italy seem largely to have regard to lineage, and also are unlikely to regard premiership footballers as anything other than rich louts - or indeed "Posh" Spice as anything but "vulgar, vulgar, vulgar".

One's cultural heritage includes, IMHO, lineage, and teh habits of ones ancestors, and also the habits of those forming part of one's ancestors' societies and thier habits (and the same factors of the present day. Not all should be embraced - for example dog and cock fighting, and bear and bull-baiting (not often to be accepted as song topics). Pre-Queensbury Prize fighting is at present at an ambivalent stage, as are hunting with hounds and whaling - but still valid song topics in some cases.

In this wider context, football riots of the 70s are part of the UK's heritage, now to be condemned - like witch trials and the forced marriage of rape victim to rapist.

We need to know who we are, and that includes where we came from. By and large we need,to be confident in our identities, to be proud of where we came from (as far as possible). Some aspects of our past need to be rememberd only as history, not as matters of celebration, but if we do not remember what we did wrong as well as what we did right, then we do not truly know who we are.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 07:15 AM

"Thanks for your responses to my question about whether White people describe other White people by skin complexion. I've never heard any White person use such descriptors."

There are multi-million pound industries built on the whiteness of white people's skin; every town in the UK has tanning booths and Boots is stacked with all sorts of gunk that turns people who think their skin is too white all hues.

I've been doing my family history and this has turned up one or two surprises that are making me reassess my own cultural identity. I had always considered myself a person of the Isles 100%. Although born and raised in England my mum is Welsh and there was a strong sense of 'Welshness' from the maternal side of the family. The Welshness was a stronger identity than the Englishness because it had more . . . substance. This is probably due to the personalities of my parents in part, but also because I think ordinary English people define their national identity in different ways; there is not a cohesive society-encompassing identifier of 'Englishness'.

During the course of my research I contacted a great Uncle on the paternal (or English) side I had never spoken to before: the last of my Nan's generation and a repository of family knowledge and rumour. He confirmed the possibility of French, Irish and Gypsy in the family which my Nan had told me years ago before she died. Interestingly, it turns out they were all musicians: singers, piano players, accordion players and in the case of my great-granddad, a mighty bones player (I have his set of cow ribs on my desk as I write this). Apparently they all loved to play music, sing and have an ale or six, so I know where I get that from . . .

Armed with some info on great-grandfathers and great-grandmothers I set about researching the census and BMD records. I traced one branch of the family back to the East End in the 1800's - real Billy Sykes types (they were pretty rum by all accounts). Turns out my great-great-great grandmother was a Huguenot, and the family has been traced back to Nimes in the south of France. They fled persecution in their homeland firstly to Prussia and ended up in the East End, probably following relatives and they all worked in the textile and wallpaper industries.

This came as a bit of a shock - the idea there was French in the family wasn't new but no-one realised just how close it was. Obviously my great-great grandfather felt this influence as he talked about it a fair bit.

I have discovered I am considerably less English than I thought I was. Indeed, a sizeable chuck of my make up isn't even from the Isles, but the south of France. I have no idea where the rest of my research will take me, but it is affecting my notions of who I am, and of my cultural inheritance, which is far wider than I could ever have imagined.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 07:41 AM

Stigweard. YOu say that your family research is affecting your notons of who you are, but why? You are still the same person as you were before. Neithr do you say why it is so important to you - interesting, maybe- but important? How?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 08:29 AM

Take on Penguin's Egg. Have it incubated by a hen. Does that make the outcome a chicken?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 08:34 AM

Take on Richard Bridge. Would you cross a Bridge?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 08:40 AM

Good question Penguin Egg.

I think it's because of events that have happened in my past that have made question my personal identity closely, and I always find the way people latch on to aspects of their heritage and identify them with themselves personally quite fascinating.

For my part, this whole new aspect of my family history answers some questions that come from having a not-too-cohesive family. I never knew we were musicians, artisans or even proper cockneys, let alone associated with one of the biggest migrations of people due to religious persecution in Europe. If you knew me, you would understand why this makes a sort of sense to me.

I do believe in a degree of folk memory or whatever you want to call it. All the DNA of my ancestors is carried in me, and where they came from is important. Wherever they were, I am too and where I am, they are now. I never doubted the Celt in me; it was always there and it felt it was deep within, but the fact my ancestors turned out to be persecuted immigrants has some relevance in modern England, seeing as many who decry immigration in this day and age had their equivalents back in the day.

This doesn't affect certain aspects of who I feel I am, as those were settled back in my childhood, and it doesn't alter my personality (for better or worse) although it might shed some light on my likes and dislikes, but it does make me think about my identity from a nationalistic and ethnic point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 09:21 AM

Here is something interesting from the actor Morgan Freeman (taken from Wikepedia) ... I must say I cannot diasagree with him ... food for thought ...

"Freeman has publicly criticized the celebration of Black History Month and does not participate in any related events, saying, "I don't want a black history month. Black history is American history."[10] He says the only way to end racism is to stop talking about it, and he notes that there is no "white history month". Freeman once said on an interview with 60 Minutes' Mike Wallace: "I am going to stop calling you a white man and I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man."[10] Freeman supported the defeated proposal to change the Mississippi state flag, which contains the Confederate battle flag[11][12]."

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 09:31 AM

"I'm not sure that the US really understands "class" as used in Europe"

Yes, we got lucky on that one!

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:07 AM

"Yes, we got lucky on that one!"

You'e not kidding - a thousand years under the Norman Yoke and we still live in a society where class matters in many ways, especially with regards to the establishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:08 AM

I must say, I am delighted at the responses that have been posted on this thread even when I dont agree with them.

My own view is that cultural heritage is over-rated and if it is actively encouraged, it can lead to people actively retreating into a cultural ghetto. Although I found Stigweard's postings very interesting, I have to say I profoundly disagree with them. For me, my past is not important.The past is a foreign country where I do not belong. If I was to meet my ancestors, we would have nothing in common with each other. The only thing we would have in common is our gene pool. The DNA in us is biological. I do not agree that there is also a cultural DNA in us. Our ancestors were foreigners (to us, at least). What they belived in, went through, expereienced is not what I believe in, went through, and experienced. Much more important to me is the society that I live in - our attitudes, our immediate history - the Zeitgeist, if you will.

I judge a man by his character. His cultural background is totally un-important.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:10 AM

Stigweard. you family history should be turned into an epic blockbuster novel.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:26 AM

"My own view is that cultural heritage is over-rated and if it is actively encouraged, it can lead to people actively retreating into a cultural ghetto. "

From reading these posts, it seems that in the UK there is a cultural trait to go overboard on aspects of heritage that creates some sort of belief that one has to rigidly follow a stereotype.

Why does ones ancestry need to govern a life? A "persecuted immigrant" in someones background could give cause to understand what others are going through in modern times, but there is no DNA that will change your life because of it anymore than anyone else.   Understanding the past is an important aspect that guides us to the future, but our past should not limit us to what we perceive as stereotypes.   This whole "class" idea is something that remains in a psyche of people in the UK where it has a different viewpoint in the U.S.    I would hope that we are free-thinkers and not governed by stereotypes of our own creation - we can easily go beyond that if we recognize the boundaries that we have created.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:46 AM



This is absolutely correct, and I agree 100%, but what makes a man's character? A myriad of influences ranging from his genetic make, his upbringing, the country he lives in etc

I think it's impossible to avoid your cultural heritage as it's a part of your make-up. I can't see my essential character changing because of what I've discovered with my family history (I'll be a Villa fan until the day I die and I love Irish music) but it is helping me understand my world a little better.

By way of an analogy, I was doing a degree in Geology some years ago (I didn't finish it much to my lasting regret) and after the first year I realised I was seeing the world in a different way. As we drove through the countryside I became more aware I was travelling through a landscape which told a story; this hill over here was a carboniferous reef standing off the sea bed 345 million years ago, this scarp was the result of folding due to tectonic forces far to the east as a continental plate subducts beneath another continent-sized piece of crust bobbing on a sea of magma. The timeless hills and mountains of my homeland became transient characters making a fleeting appearance in the vastness of our planet's geological timescale, rising and falling over the eons.

In a way this is what my family history does; it changes the way I look at the history not only of myself, my family, not even of just Wales and England, but now Europe and events that changed the world. Whilst one branch were farming the Welsh Hills for centuries, others were being hounded out of their homes and forced to flee.

Somewhere along the line, all of this added a little more to my understanding of who I am.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:05 AM

"Why does ones ancestry need to govern a life?"

It doesn't govern my life - do we all appear that stupid to you? I'm not doing my family history because I need some sort of guidance of how to live my life, but because I want to understand where I came from, where my family fitted into the great scheme of things.

"From reading these posts, it seems that in the UK there is a cultural trait to go overboard on aspects of heritage that creates some sort of belief that one has to rigidly follow a stereotype."

I think you're misunderstanding this Ron.Many people in the UK are very interested in their family history, as are people in the states - I don't hear you criticising Big Mick or Azizi for their interest in their family history or heritage, and I can't see what the difference is between them and me. In fact, they are more defined by their history than I am, as I'm in the process of discovering mine.

"This whole "class" idea is something that remains in a psyche of people in the UK where it has a different viewpoint in the U.S.    I would hope that we are free-thinkers and not governed by stereotypes of our own creation - we can easily go beyond that if we recognize the boundaries that we have created."

Don't confuse the class thing with what I'm talking about here, they're not the same thing. The class system in the UK is a despicable hangover from the old feudal system that unfortunately is proving difficult to get rid of. You'd not believe how many people define themselves by class in the UK, and wear it like a badge. Read Pygmalion by George Bernard Shaw for a witty and insightful view of how class works in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:07 AM



All cultural heritage is optional, IMHO; as an indivvidual you are no more bund by your grandfather's nationality than you are obligated to be a criminal because your great-great-grandfather was shipped to Botany Bay for picking pockets, or to accept a scarred and useless briar pipe to keep in a drawer somewhere because it belonged to a deceased forefather. It's a choice you make as to what beliefs and images to use in constructing your own worldview.

There are thousands of people who are the heirs to a culture of feud and revenge over dozens of generations--"fighting the British" or the damn Yankees, defending some pocket-version of Muslimism, Palestinian pathos, or some tribal battle whose roots are lost in the mists of past conflict--who walk away and choose not to forward such hatreds.

To my mind the obligation one has to one's cultural heritage is to choose from it those ideas, feelings, and passions which reflect the best and highest accomplishments of the culture. If I were born Irish, which I was not, I would embrace language, song, poetry, and a love of freedom as cultural values; I would spin tales of magic and love and celebration. But I would not become a poteen addict, a highwayman, or a promulgator of hatred against the British; those are cultural fragments I would drop by the wayside no matter how emotionally compelling they were to my parents.

DNA, now, is another matter, and it is likely there are cultural bents that are carried in the genes, but I think they are secondary when talking about cultural heritage. My genes include the strongpossibility of alcoholism, but I am not an alcoholic (Getaways notwithstanding).

A

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:20 PM

Spot on Amos!

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:38 PM

In terms of my own cultural heritage,the big thing is probably food :). Because I grew up within an Italian American family, that cultural legacy feels absolutely a part of who I am. People speaking Italian, cooking Italian food, singing me little songs when I was a baby...it's all a very real part of my heritage. Our family, like many immigrant families, defines itself through its history and its stories - whenever I go home, there are always family stories that come out at parties and gatherings: how my great-geandparents met packing lemons in a warehouse in Messina; how my great-grandfather kidnapped my great-grandmother because her family didn't approve of him, and dashed across the hills on horseback with her brothers in hot pursuit; all the particulars of the farm they bought when they got to America; the pajama factory the girls went to work in when they turned 12; the fact that my grandmother's school teacher complimented her on how white her mother's sheets always were when they were hanging on the line, "not like those other dirty Italians"; my grandlother's eldest sister writing down all the sizes of the clothes they needed from town, so that when they arrived my great grandmother would not have to speak and give away that they were Italian; the time my grandmother's sister and brothers drank their father's homemade wine and couldn't turn the tap off, so they let it run into all these dirty bottles, and when their father got home and found out he whipped the boys and tied them to a tree; the time my two uncles dug a "bear trap" with barbed wire in the bottom and lured their sister into it (she still has the scars on her hand)...you get the picture. These stories all happened before I was even born, but they are SO real to me. And they are some of the threads that continue to bind all of these dozens of disparate people that make up my family, even four generations on. They help to tell us who we are.

My dad's family was Irish. While I've always been interested in that culture, it doesn't have the same immediacy for me because I didn't really grow up inside it. I visit it like any other cultural tourist would.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:41 PM

"do we all appear that stupid to you?"

well.....

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:44 PM

Just teasing... of course I don't think you are stupid. We are having a discussion after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:47 PM

Thanks mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:59 PM

You are probably right - I am probably misunderstanding the importance that SEEMS to be placed on "heritage". It is probably no different from what you suggested Big Mick and Aziz has suggested. Perhaps reading the threads, as an American, I am picking up a different sense then what you are actually trying to relate. I would hazard a guess that most of us are probably closer to agreement on the role that "heritage" has on our lives than we realize!

Personally, my ancestors are Hungarian, Polish and Czech. There may be certain family traditions that can be traced to those lands, but I would venture to say that I am not much different from any American who is two or three generations removed from "the old country". Our sense of heritage comes from events that have transpired on this native soil and we expand upon that.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 03:52 PM

""I've never heard any White person use such descriptors."

I just remembered...when I was about 12, I was in the local public swimming pool. About 10 ft. away, one boy, (also 'white')pointed at me and said to his friend "Look how white he is!" "Hey, Whitey!"....

I am of Scots/Irish heritage, redheaded...and do NOT tan. I was much whiter than most kids, and it was a 'small' disadvantage. Tanned was good! Since, for those who CAN tan, skin color was to a certain extent adjustable, we heard a lot fewer comments about color. When I entered Jr. High/Intermediate/Middle school...7th grade...we had all colors, shades and cultures, and it never dawned on me to worry about who was what. It 'barely' registered with me that many of the darker kids in my classes lived in highly segregated areas, but within a few years, it made a lot of difference, as the early stirrings of the civil rights movement made the news.
Now skin color was important, as it made you think about who you palled around with...and when.

   Culture was highlighted when a black guy...(a sports star)...was elected Homecoming King at my high school. Everyone liked him...but there was the BIG question!!! Would he follow tradition and kiss the Queen, who was white? He did not...not in 1956.
Then, a girl in my class, who was from India, and fairly dark, was seen...*gasp* ..walking with him and holding hands! SHE was called in by school officials and told that was 'not appropriate'... As she explained it to me later, the walls shook as she told them off! She would durned well walk with whomever she pleased.

   So, as I worked my way thru my teens, color...mine AND others...was thrust upon me. I am aware that it hit some more than others.

Later...maybe 1965 or so, I heard remarks about color BY Blacks about other Blacks during Civil Rights meetings...it saddened me, but it was none of my business...they had to sort it out.

So? What of all this? People are people, and they WILL notice, decide, discriminate and rank...and the lazy will use easy rules....like color. It's better than it was 40 years ago...but wow..........

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:20 PM

Better, at times, that we were all 'blind' and then, perhaps we'd see only each other, and not these 'things' Close your eyes, just for a little while, close your eyes and get someone you know to talk to you.....and listen. Learn to see with your ears, before you see with your eyes.

"Everything has its wonders, even darkness and silence, and I learn whatever state I am in, therin to be content." Helen Keller

Helen would have judged no man, or woman. She'd not have seen them as one class or another.

And yes, Ron, you Americans and Canadians *are* extremely lucky to have missed out on the English 'class' classification of human beings.

Bonsoir, Stig! ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:00 PM

Hi Kids: HO HO HO...Just been to the Mall. How about this. We EXCHANGE heritages until the NEW YEAR! That Christmasy feeling has come upon me, and what better way to let someone know you care than by letting them be POLISH for 2 weeks?!

Ride with me on this one. All you have to do is change your last name to something Slavic, something you have a hard time spelling, and YOU are there...

Complete the trial by eating only pierogies, kielbasa, kishka, cabbage soup, guwompkies(embarrassed to say I can't spell it. Sorry Ma.) for the trial period and you will be INTO IT!

Put on that Bowling shirt, Polka your way to the Mall, you know, get down wid yer own bad self...

When you say your new name, LOOK at the expression on the person you're speaking to...You'll notice they look at you like the RCA Dog, or, a deer in the headlights! Heartwarming isn't it?

You'll get used to it. And think of all the FUN things you can do! Collect mispronunciations of your name. Start scrapbooking the misspellings. I tell you, the FUN just NEVER STOPS!

NOW. I'LL be willing to try out that Brit, stiff upper lip, God Save the Queen, crumpet stuff if you let me. Might take me a while to get used to the bowler & umbrella, but I'm willing to WORK on it.

And, the BEST thing about this is, if you don't like the heritage you got, you can return it on BOXING DAY!

The creativity just never stops over here...Merry Christmas...bob

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:10 PM

I'm lucky - my life experience is drawn from many locations and contexts.

I'm also lucky to have made real deep friendships with black white Indian and other people.

I have learned a lot about honesty and tact from my black friends.

I have friends who are Black British, Black African, White African ... damn ... it goes on ... anyway, I have been exposed to and become familiar with and then incorporated into myself the whole idea of clearly and honestly observing thw hue of someones skin and their racial characeristics without being embarrassed about ot or judgemental.

Like I said, I'm blessed to have had a rich life experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:12 PM

GFS, the swastika comes from India - it is a hindu symbol representing peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: meself
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 06:02 PM

I've always undertood the swastika to be an Aboriginal North American symbol, as well as it being associated with other cultures - don't remember where I got that - but I do remember in the Classics Illustrated rendition of Hiawatha, one of the characters had a (backwards?) swastika on a wristband, and I was already, at whatever tender age I was reading the comic, aware of the Native connection with the symbol.

An auctioneer once hired me to clear out the household goods of an old lady who had died; the house was in rural Ontario, outside Peterborough somewhere. Among the items were a couple of stands for old-fashioned irons to sit on (or were they sits for old-fashioned irons to stand on?); in their ironwork were prominent designs swastikas. I had, and still have, no doubt that these pre-dated the Nazi takeover of the swastika.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: meself
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 06:04 PM

(designs OF swastikas)

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 06:09 PM

yes, meself..it's a 'four winds' design.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 06:09 PM

I've been reading this thread on and off for a while. And seeing IB's post back there really made me consider what the broader implications of my own 'personal cultural heritage' may mean. It is, as he rightly suggested, a cultural heritage - which although quite clearly *embedded within* and *filtered through* the context of my temporal location, country and region, ethnicity, genetics, immediate ancestry, economic and class backdrop, and so-on - is equally one which ranges very broadly away from direct associations to that web of immediate contextual foundations.

Some of the influences which I think of as my 'cultural heritage', in no particular order, other than the one my brain-context suggests them to me right now:

Nietzsche, Enid Blyton, Franz Kafka, Marx and Engels, The Brothers Grimm, C.G.Jung, Frued, Seamus Heaney, Morrissey, Chevy Chase, Frank Zappa, Andy Goldsworthy, Louise Bourgiouse, Marie Louise Von Franz, Wainwright, The Mighty Boosh, Joseph Campell, Erikson, Radiohead, Paul Celan, Liz Greene, Cicely M Barker, John Bunyan, John Stuart Mill, Bertrand Russell, Dostoyevsky, William Butler Yeats, Ursula Le Guin, Marc Chagal, Christian Rosenkreutz, Rumi, Olivier Messiaen, Billy Bragg, Gorky, Charles Kingsley, Vic and Bob, John Peel, Meister Eckhart, John Lennon, Max Ernst, Marsillio Ficino, Kandinsky, Andre Gide, William Blake, Christopher Marlowe... And on.

It's a thought provoking exercise, and makes one think. I don't think I've tried it before, but doing it really demonstrates just how magpie like the individual human mind is, in terms of what it seeks out or defines as meaningful and important to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 06:17 PM

From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 05:11 AM

GFS, shame you got off on the God thing, because you are right about the swastika.

Huh??
Maybe we should take off 'In God We trust' off everything, and replace it with 'In Politicians We Hope'
God is Love...and the origin of life...Not talking about a 'religion'. I believe our founding father had their finger more on the pulse, than ideologies that came since...being as those ideologies never founded a nation or almost anything...they just wanted to take control over the efforts of those who did, with their blood, lives of hard work, and dreams of freedom, and making a better place for their posterity!! ...and not by being psychophants (leeches) of those who did!!!!!!

Lox, The swastika appears in several cultures around the world. 'Meself' is also correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 06:43 PM

"Aboriginal North American"

As i understand it there was no aboriginal culture in North America.

Aboriginal culture spread upwards through south America from the south pacific, but then encountered migrants from east Asia who, having arrived in the Americas in Alaska and migrated downwards, went on to drive the Aboriginal contingent right out of the Americas with the exception of about twelve old women who are alive today in the Argentinian Town of Ushuaia.

Those East Asian migrants were the ancestors of the Native Americans who were in turn plundered bu the Brits, Spanish, Portuguese etc ....

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 06:54 PM

To clarify that last post, ... the aboriginal settlement of America went up around as far as New Mexico (so I suppose thats quite far north really) before they encountered the opposing Asian Migration which was possessed of a superior military knowhow and which drove them into the sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 09:23 PM

Better, at times, that we were all 'blind' and then, perhaps we'd see only each other, and not these 'things' Liz the Squeak

Serious question: Are there blind racists?

Bob Ryszkiewicz - (my guess is that once a person knows how it goes, your name isn't that hard to pronounce)

Some of us may be more sensitive to nuance than others, Bob. My last name is 'Bontrager' and for some reason instead of being upset about the many, many mispronunciations of it, my family'collected' them.

The most common surrender was 'Trigger', but I've also heard 'Barndragger' and 'Bonedragger'.

The worst example that we laughed about was probably not that funny, being almost certainly from a barely literate deliveryman.

He was delivering supplies to my father and partner's dairy (Bontrager and Kanagy) and when he reached my brothers he consulted the listed address and inquired, Is this Fawza Bawza and Kane?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:03 PM

Ebbie, maybe it's a Sagittarius thing, but I was going to post a comment about blind people and prejudice.

It seems to me that it's very simplistic to think that just because a person can't see the physical clues that help sighted people categorize people by race, that person could not be prejudiced against or for a particular race or races.

While physical clues are part of how people are socialized to categorize people into racial and ethnic* categories, there are other ideas, attitudes, and stereotypes that people associate with particular racial groups. A person doesn't rise above the stereotypes about race just because he or she can't see skin colors.

* In the context of this sentence, by "ethnic" I mean the USA population group of Latinos.

**

Another cultural descriptor that hasn't yet been mentioned in this discussion is gender orientation. I'm a heterosexual female who has a few gay and lesbian acquaintances. Perhaps I also have some gay and lesbian friends who I don't know. I certainly have gay family members, but rarely talk about this topic with them {their choice}.

It certainly seems to be little doubt that gender orientation has a powerful influence on a person's self-esteem, and attitudes toward life and attitudes toward other people. While I believe that it would be erroneous to talk about "a gay lifestyle" as if there is only one gay lifestyle, it does seem to me that there are cultural mores that could be considered part of some gay lifestyles. I suppose that some gay sub-sets have their own languages and folk heroes, and music preferences, and dance styles etc etc etc. I just don't know very much about these types of cultural lifestyles.

But from what I've observed, and read, and from what I've been told, although homosexual and transgendered people have some things in common regardless of their race, racial prejudice can still exist in this population.

Comments?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: number 6
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:48 PM

"My ancestors didn't come over on the Mayflower, but they met 'em at the boat." .... Will Rogers


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:08 PM

'Straining on a gnat, but swallowing a camel'


So Lox, Where did the very first one come from???..Asia?...and where did they come from, to Asia??

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:13 PM

In High School, we had a teacher who was both blind and a racist. He expressed ideas in class that would get him suspended today, but those were different times. The most galling thing was that he presented his bigoted ideas as fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: meself
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:50 PM

Lox: I am sure you will concede that many authorities would dispute your account of the origins of the first human inhabitants of the Americas ... ?

*****************

Someone cue up Dave Chapelle's skit about the blind racist ...

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:07 AM

Meself,

Thank you for your informed response - yes I would.

GfS

No - the south Pacific.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:36 AM

And how did they get out there??

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 06:52 AM

On boats.

From australia and polynesia.

They were black and did not have east asian features like todays native Americans, who arrived over the land bridge which connected Asia with what is now Alaska.

The point is GFS, that before we go calling todays Native Americans "Aboriginal", we should be sure that they were the original inhabitants - it is a conveniently enjoyable irony that the race of people whose history places doubt on that claim were in fact Australian Aboriginals.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 10:19 AM

meself, and others:

I had heard about Dave Chappelle's "Blind Supremacy" sketch. However, I've never seen it, and had forgotten about it when I wrote my comment to this thread.

Here's an excerpt from a newspaper article that mentions that sketch. Ironically, the article is from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette {my adopted hometown}. Fwiw, the columnist is African American:

"The infamous "Blind Supremacy" sketch from last season comes to mind. No one who saw it will ever forget the conceit of a blind Klansman, played by an obviously black, but hooded Chappelle, rallying his followers with cheers of "White Power."

The faux supremacist has made a minor fortune making speeches at racist gatherings. Still, he doesn't know that he's black because he's never seen himself in the mirror. The childhood buddy who chauffeurs him in a pickup truck won't level with him because he's afraid it could kill the golden goose of fiery anti-black rhetoric. As long as he stays hooded, the suckers who pay to hear him preach aren't the wiser, either.

When the blind Klansman rips the hood from his head in response to the crowd's entreaties to "show his face," all hell breaks loose.

Later, we learn from the skit's narrator that the blind Klansman eventually divorced his white wife because he couldn't tolerate being married to "a n***er lover".*"

The hilariously dangerous world of Dave Chappelle
Tuesday, January 27, 2004; Pittsburgh Post Gazette; Tony Norman

http://www.post-gazette.com/columnists/20040127normanp5.asp

*Yes Tony Norman wrote that entire N word. Yes I cringed when I read it. And yes I took the liberty of refusing to write the entire word.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 10:22 AM

Here's a link to that YouTube clip of that Dave Chappelle sketch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzDDyvu3goU

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: meself
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 12:46 PM

"Thank you for your informed response"

Hmmm, my sarcasm meter seems to be on the blink - the needle's going crazy ...

I am not particularly 'informed' on the matter - just enough to know that there is no end of theories about the origins of what are generally considered to be the indigenous peoples of the Americas. There are those sea-faring Phoenicians, those early Europeans crossing an ice-bridge, the lost Chinese fleet, etc., etc.. And the Polynesians. Probably the Atlanteans, too. And then there are those extraterrestrial lads with the imaginative landing strips ...

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 02:13 PM

They came from Australia, and Polynesia??..How come they came from there?,,or how did they get to Australia and Polynesia??...On boats??...you mean like the Europeans who came here??....and who was here, when these wandering wayfarers came here from the south Pacific?...other Aboriginal peoples?????

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 10:13 AM

"and who was here, when these wandering wayfarers came here from the south Pacific?...other Aboriginal peoples?????"

Noone Apparently - Depending on the outcome of current research.

Native Americans as we know them today came from North East Asia over the land Bridge that connected the two continents at the time.

That bit is not disputed.

The archeological debate is about who was there first - the Australian Aboriginals or the genetically very distinct North East Asians who drove them out.

"How come they came from there?,"

well thats where they were when their journey began I suppose (?).

As for where australian aborigines came from before that - well - there weren't any ...

Dear GFS - if you think this is interesting and you were previously unaware, then I am pleased fro you. If you don't then I don't really care. If it upsets you then I'm sorry.

I just think its kind of interesting.

Have fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 10:18 AM

Aboriginal = "original or earliest known"

It also refers to the native people of australia.

Thjere is evidence that the first people in America were, by coincidence, Australian Aboriginals.

Isnt that interesting?

If it is proved conclusiveley to be true then that would mean that Native Americans as we know them today weren't Aboriginal to America.

Can you see why that might be interesting?

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 11:53 AM

Returning to the original question, my thought for the day is that focusing on values that were established in the past and which gave rise to certain turns of language, rituals, habits and attitudes is highly unimportant compared to the culture you create today with the words that come out of your mouth and the actions you take. Doing something because it was that way is trivial compared to doing something because it will make things better.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 01:02 PM

Doing something because it was that way is trivial compared to doing something because it will make things better.
-Amos

I hear what you're saying, Amos. But I think that some people create because they like to stretch the boundaries of what is so that they can see what can be. Some people create because they value the act of creating as well as the product that is created. They don't necessarily see that product as an improvement on an older product.

With regard to heritage, I believe that African Americans as a people place a high value on innovation. Evidence of our innovation can be seen in how so much of our slang eventually becomes "standard" words & phrases, but even before mainstream society adopts our slang, we've moved on to new words & phrase. The same process is true of Black dance, music making, fashion, and more. Imo, one thing we [Black Americans] should do better at is valuing our past creations.

For instance, it may be true that a lot of late 20th century and early 21st century African Americans don't "like" Blues and Jazz music because those music forms became separated from dance {and African Americans, like Africans and other people from the African Diaspora consider singing and other forms of music making and dancing to be a unified whole}. However, I think another reason why so many Black Americans know so little and care even less about Blues and Jazz is because a lot of us consider these music forms to be "old timey". Related to this is the fact that some Blues and some Jazz reminds us of the bad old days. But it seems to me that we Black people would gain a great deal by continuing to be innovative and, at the same time, learn to treasure our past, including our past creations.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 04:23 AM

In 1492, Columbus discovered America, from the Indians....

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 04:04 PM

Oh. Right. If you say so. And the 1621 English settlement was the first one too. Right.

Subject: RE: BS: Your cultural heritage- is it important?
From: Lox
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 04:15 PM

... And before that Lief Ericson the Viking discovered it (from the Indians) in 1000AD ...

... and before that, it is believed by some, St Brendan sailed from Ireland to newfoundland in the 6th century. The actual event has not been conclusively proved, but it was certainly shown conclusively to be possible by Tim Severin in 1976.