The Advent and Development of Chanties

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 04:26 AM

and, from Dixon:

//
The following morning, Sept. 18, all hands were called at daybreak; and the windlass was manned, and the anchor hove short, to " Lowlands," the wildest and most weird of all sailor-songs, led by the second mate.
//

LOWLANDS AWAY


Dixon's lyrics and tunes compare well with RC Adams' (1879).

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 04:06 AM

A reference to shantying probably in the 1870s (after the Civil War but no later than 1881) is the following, introduced by John Minear in the "Sydney" thread thus:

Here is another one of those very interesting references in which the events are not dated. My sense is that this is from the 1870s. The book is FORE AND AFT: A STORY OF ACTUAL SEA LIFE, by Robert Brewer Dixon, in which he describes a voyage from New York to Vera Cruz, Mexico, on the "brig Elizabeth." The book was published in 1883. I have tried to locate information on the brig "Elizabeth", but there apparently were several of them dating back to the time of the American Revolution. I couldn't pin it down. The same was true with "Captain Bradley". There was a Robert Brewer Dixon who became a prominent physician in boston. He studied for his MD at Harvard from 1876-79. It is likely that this is the same person, in which case, these events at sea probably happened prior to his time at Harvard. He mentions in his first chapter that he has been at school at "Chauncy-hall School, Boston, and was at home on my summer vacation..." (p.2)

The shanty passages are as follows.

When leaving NY:

//
The pawls of the windlass rattled merrily to "Shanandore, I love your daughter," led by our "shanty-man," the crew coming in on the chorus of "Hurrah, you rollin' river!"
...
The top-sail sheets were hauled taut and "bowsed down;" the halyards were then run through a snatch-block, manned by all hands; and, with another song from our "shanty-man," the yard was "mast-headed," and the sail filled with the breeze.
//

SHENANDOAH at the brake windlass, and a reference to halyard chanties.


In Vera Cruz, Mexico, cargo is being discharged a a group of stevedores -- no Americans among them -- as described herein. The work involves a pulling action.

//
Some of the logs were monsters, ten of them weighing nearly six tons each; these were about fifteen feet in length, and nearly four feet square, and required a large and powerful purchase to get them over the rail and into the hold without accident. The winch was not strong enough to lift them, so the purchase had to be taken to the windlass.

Some of the "shanty" songs, which the stevedore's crew sang as they hove in and stowed away the logs, were highly interesting and melodious. The "shanty-man" was a large, powerfully built Portuguese, who had charge of the work. He would lead off in a song; and the rest of the gang would come in on the chorus, all pulling at the same time, as the word or sign was given in the song. All of the men were Mexicans, except the Portuguese, and a young Swedish sailor who had left his vessel, and had since" been living on shore, working for the stevedore.
//

//
There is a great deal of melody in these sailorsongs, and a good "shanty-man" has at least fifty songs in his repertoire. One of the most spirited " pulling-songs " was the " Bowline," a favorite with the men, constantly called for when a log refused to move; and almost continually the echoing chorus of this or some other equally pleasing song resounded through the hatchway while the cargo was stowing.

We'll haul the bowline so early in the morning;
(Chorus.) We'll haul the bowline, the bowline haul!
[w/ musical score]

"Rosa," another "pulling-song," undoubtedly of negro origin, was a favorite of mine.

Oh ! Rosa in the garden, hanging out clothes
(Chorus.) Stand below you coal black rose.
[w/ music]
//

So, BOWLINE and COAL BLACK ROSE mentioned for the first time. The melody is different than the one supplied by Hugill.

//
"Pulling-songs" should have but one chorus, while windlass-songs invariably have two. One of the widest-known and most melodious of all windlass-songs is " Shanandore." This is also of negro origin: as now sung, the wording is changed almost entirely, but the original air remains.

For seven long years I courted Sally.
Hurrah, you rollin' river!
I courted Sally down in yon valley
Ah, ha! I'm bound away on the wild Missouri.
[w/ music]
//

SHENANDOAH again. When he says "as now sung," I understand it to me that he believes the "Shanadore, I love your daughter" version (i.e. as opposed to a Sally Brown version) is the the altered form, which the sailors (as opposed to these stevedores) sing.

//
These few are enough to give an idea of sailor-songs. The Portuguese had a good voice for "shanty " singing, and his clear tones would ring out with the line of the song; while the men, catching up the air, would come in heartily on the chorus, and give a quick strong pull at the proper time. It was remarkable to see, when a song was started up, how quickly the men would move a heavy log that before they could not stir. The song not only inspired them with vim and enthusiasm, but gave them the time for pulling all together.
//

FWIW, "shanty" continues to be used in quotes.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 02:02 AM

And here's more from Kellogg.

//
The importance of the negro stevedores and seamen gradually diminished with the decay of the West India trade. But the first severe blow was inflicted in 1833, when the brig Oscar, belonging to Jacob Knight, a prominent West India merchant, came into Boston with a cargo of molasses. Mr. Knight took his blacks and went to Boston to discharge the vessel, and bring her back to Portland. He took a large crew of the smartest negroes, first-rate hoisters and singers, with the tackles and other gear, and Robert Craig for leading singer, with the two Shapleigh's, Isaiah Thomas, Young, Jere Brown, and Stewart, a man of enormous bulk and lungs in proportion. The derrick was raised, the gear rove, and Craig commenced his favorite song:

"Crow, crow; why don't you crow?"

in tones that were distinctly heard in South Boston, East Boston, and over the entire peninsula, while the rest of the crew resolved to show the Boston people how it was done, put in a fearful chorus of

"John, Johnnie Crow is a dandy, O."

In half an hour there were five thousand people on the wharf, and the vessel's rigging was filled with boys and loafers from the leading-blocks to the cross-trees.

Some one bent on mischief raised the cry of fire; the Old South bell rang; the firemen turned out, and rushed wildly about to find the fire, for there was no smoke visible, and no fire telegraph then. At length the police were summoned to disperse the crowd and stop the noise, and to their infinite disgust the negroes were forbidden to sing, upon which they refused to work, when the matter was compromised by their being permitted to sing in a low tone, with a policeman on the quarter-deck to enforce the order. Craig avenged himself and his mates by lampooning the policeman in his song, and most of the time sung a mournful ditty, the chorus of which was:

"Poor old man."

In the mean time Knight went among the shipping, and found cargoes there were discharged with a winch, that this required less men, and more work could be done in the same time for less money. He therefore bought a winch (windlass turned by cranks) and brought it home in the brig. The negroes would have nothing to do with it, because they could have no song, for this machine did not admit of it. There was neither poetry, music, nor pleasant associations connected with turning a crank, and the Irish filled their places; the lumber was cut off; the negroes gradually disappeared and sought other employments, and the entire course of trade changed.
//

Kellogg made a similar claim about the winch in his 1869 work.

1833 was during the time that Kellogg was at sea. I'm beginning to think this stuff has basis in fact in which case Kellogg's observations would really give some insight to *early* work-singing.

More facts could be checked. Here's the link to the book.

http://books.google.com/books?id=QksqAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA151&dq=negro+sing+%22fire+awa

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 01:49 AM

In another work of historical fiction, Elijah Kellogg sets a scene of Black men at work in Portland (ME) using chanties. Like in his other works, the shanties (at least in my opinion) look like they were based in some existing songs. The book is A STRONG ARM AND A MOTHER'S BLESSING, published 1881.

Stevedores are unloading casks of molasses (by means of hoisting with rope) to make way for lumber. We are expecting either a halyard-like action or else a hand-over-hand.

//
Shepard, a tall, intelligent-looking mulatto, covered with molasses from head to foot, took his place at the hatchway, and the stevedore cried :

"Come, Bob Craig, call de mourners, strike de music, short song, my bullies, short song; we've lost much time dis mornin', and de brig must be discharged to-night."

Thus exhorted, Craig, a very tall, sinewy negro, black as night, opened a mouth so capacious that it resembled an old-fashioned fall-back chaise, but the voice that issued from this cavern, though of tremendous volume, was sweet and well modulated. The words were silly enough, but the time was perfect, — and this accomplishes the object of the song, which is to cause every man to lay out his strength at the same instant; it also excites the negro to such a degree that while singing he is scarcely conscious of fatigue. Craig, obeying the command of the stevedore, proceeded to "call de mourners," standing on a plank placed across the hatchway that elevated his tall form far above the rest.

"Born in a frying-pan, raised on a shovel,
Tidee-i-dee ah, tidee-i-dee ah ;
Way down south among de corn and de cotton,
Tidee-i-dee ah, tidee-i-dee ah,
Dere I growed to be such a coal-black darky,
   Tidee-i-dee ah, tidee-i-dee ah."

The other blacks giving the chorus.
//

I can't place it. Thought about "Tiddy High O," but it doesnt fit Hugill's version.

//
Under the stimulus of this quick time six casks came up in a hurry, when Craig struck up :

"Gen'ral Jackson's a fightin'-man,
    Fire, my ringo, fire away;
He opened his forts, fired away,
    Fire, my ringo, fire away."
//

MARINGO!

The following exchange underscores the idea of the chantyman as a singer who doesnt work. In his ARK OF ELM ISLAND (1869), Kellogg also refers, as if to an actual event, to this "Old Craig" singing while hoisting molasses from the brig WILLIAM in Portland. Is he reusing his ideas here? It's not unreasonable to think that Kellogg did see something like this "many years" before 1869, however we can't place the shanties.

//
"Dat's fust-rate song," cried the stevedore, delighted. He then said to Arthur:

"Dat big man what gives de song — dat's Bob Craig; no man like him eber I see ; I give him most wages. I've knowed Massa Jake Knights give hitn nine shillings a day, 'cause he 'fraid somebody else hire him, and Craig neber touch his hand to de rope, but stand at de rail, and sing, and beat de time with two belayin' pins."

"I don't see why he paid him for singing if he didn't work."

"Paid him 'cause he made de rest work — paid for de sing; black man no like a white man, song stir him all up ; no song, he lazy, no do nothin'; give him good song, den he throw himself."
//

And one more song:

//
One of the negroes now cried :
" Dis song too quick, Jack Groves; men no get dere breath ; must have longer song."
" Stick to it, bullies; three more casks, den have longer song."
After hoisting three more casks, Craig began another ditty.

"My name is Johnny-jump-round,
And every person knock down,
Ho, ho, Highland a'!
Round de corner Sally,

My breast is made of steel-plate,
My arms are made of crowbars,
Ho, ho, etc.

And if you don't believe me,
I'll give you leave to try me,
   Ho, ho, etc."

[line breaks are mine]
//

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 01:00 AM

This reference comes via Q, who posted it 28 Jun 09 on the "Rare Caribbean" thread.I am taking the liberty of copy-pasting it because it has all the information.

Robert C. Leslie, in "Old Sea Wings, Ways and Words in the Days of Oak and Hemp," , London, 1890, Chapman and Hall Ltd., describes the sailing of an American Black X ship from St. Katherine's Docks, bound for New York, p. 233: "Yankee seamen (almost an extinct race now) were then noted for their capstan chants, and the chorus of "Good Morning, Ladies All," swells quaintly up at intervals above the other sounds."" [Leslie was speaking of the 1880s]

So, GOOD MORNING LADIES, which was also mentioned as a capstan chantey in 1868 ONCE A WEEK article.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 11:52 PM

One last (?) statement by WC Russell comes in an essay called "A Claim for American Literature" in THE NORTH AMERICAN REVIEW, Feb. 1892.

It shows his high regard for Dana.

He puts his American origins of chanties idea down in an even more positive fashion than previously.

//
However, I will not here assert that the Americans have taught us any particular lesson in the direction of forecastle fare. They invented the double topsail yards ; they invented the "chanty," the inspiring choruses of the windlass and the capstan, such hurricane airs as "Across the Western Ocean," " Run, Let the Bulljine Run!" " Shanadoah," " Old Stormy," " Bully in the Alley," " Cheerily, Men !" and scores besides ; they were the first to lighten the sailor's labor by bidding him lift up his voice when he hove or shoved ; they-imported into their commercial marine fifty useful time- and labor-saving ingenuities, all which we on our side, blind with the scaly salt of centimes of dogged seagoing, were very slow to see, to apprehend, and to apply. But the imaginations, the inventions, of the American nautical mind seemed to have come to a stand at the Sign of the Harness Cask.
//

He adds "Old Stormy" -- which I will attempt to class under the keyword I've been using, WALK HIM ALONG -- and "Bully in the Alley" to his named shanties.

The title "Old Stormy" appeared as such in Nordhoff but nowhere else that I can see. BULLY IN ALLEY occurred only once so far, in a book by Mulford in 1889. Russell doesn't mention that title in his writings prior to 1889 but now he adds it to his list. Whereas one could argue that Rio Grande and Bowline and Whiskey Johnny were commonly known, Bully in the Alley being mentioned here raises my eyebrow. It is entirely possible that he mentions it independently but... there still remains an issue for my purposes at least. Which is that if this is an independent mention then I want to record it as such, while if Russell is for some reason just mentioning previously-mentioned songs (regardless of his own experiences) then it messes with my data....damnit!

In any case, these Russell examples are great because they show an Englishman, at the cap (?) of the shanty era stating his belief that szanties were American creations...which we can then compare to the growing belief in the 20th century that shanteys were essentially British.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 08:56 PM

The "reckless modern" had "hurled" the name not at the sailors or the landsmen but at the songs themselves. "Them" must refer to "these last," which refers to the songs.

Grammatically, sure. But the question I am getting at is who was using the word 'chanty,' and what exactly is he alleging? Did the agent who introduced the word (i.e. in his imagination of it) come from among sailors or from among literateurs? Were sailors using a word that had become trendy among outsiders and then put into their vocabulary? Or does he believe sailors began using the word natively among themselves? If the latter, why so much disdain for the sailors' own language? What could he possibly think was their motivation to adopt the term or for someone among them to introduce it?

I am mainly using Russell as a foil here. His statements remind me of the yet unanswered issue of how/why/when the term 'chanty' came about -- the answer to which, of course, would help show from who/where they came.

The cotton-stowers and stevedores in many ports had the term "chantyman' or 'chanty" with them. There is a notable association with African-Americans, but it is not necessarilly the case that most were. Use of chanties (by whatever name) seems to have become common on ships (qualified by nationality, geography) by the Gold Rush. Assuming there is at least some significant relationship between the African-Americans' worksong practice and later shipboard practices...Did the term 'chanty' not come with the songs? Was it that the songs mostly came, and that only some 'deep' in-the-know would refer to them as 'chanty'? And if, for some time, the practice of these songs went on without most people calling them chanties, when/why did the term finally gain prominence? What would it come to prominence so long *after* the adoption of the practice?

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 07:33 PM

The 1889 passages are especially interesting. I'd almost bet that the lady who asked Russell's assistance was L. A. Smith, ca1883.

The reference to Dana makes it pretty clear that he knows those shanties by title only. I'm not surprised that he offers no words.
He obviously doesn't think much of them, and he may not remember them very clearly. He hadn't been at sea for nearly 25 years, and as far as we know he was never a shantyman himself; so the words he'd memorized would have mostly been the choruses. It is also possible that

1. the shantymen he'd known were so vulgar (by Victorian standards) that he'd have felt uncomfortable quoting anything they sang. A serious Victorian frowned on any reference to getting drunk or disorderly, any use of the word "damn" or "bloody," any suggestion of hanky-panky, and perhaps even on a song like "Sally Brown," in praise of a mulatto woman. Minstrel-type lyrics were simply foolishness (Whall pretty much says that's how he felt.) "Uplift" was the watchword.

2. the shantymen he'd known extemporized so freely and unpoetically that the words were just too dull to quote

3. he knew that the inoffensive stanzas floated so freely from song to song that he didn't feel they belonged to any one shanty and so would not be "representative" of any particular song

4. Russell's editor thought that it would be a waste of space to quote doggerel, particularly since the books of L. A. Smith and Davis & Tozier were now available.

Altogether, I don't see anything disingenuous about Russell's failure to quote lyrics, though of course it's disappointing. My guess is that he didn't pay much attention to the shanties in the first place except for the melodies. I'll also guess that the shanties he mentions (except probably those mentioned by Dana) were the most widely sung in his experience.

The "reckless modern" had "hurled" the name not at the sailors or the landsmen but at the songs themselves. "Them" must refer to "these last," which refers to the songs.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 05:52 PM

Russell again discusses sailor's songs in his THE ROMANCE OF JENNY HARLOWE (1889). This time, however, he is more opinionated.

//
In fact, there are two distinct sorts of sailors' songs, compositions of which only a very few indeed are sung by sailors, and compositions which nobody but sailors ever dream of singing. These last are well worthy of brief consideration. Some reckless modern has hurled the execrable term "chanty" at them, and the word, I am sorry to say, has stuck. I suppose the etymology of it must be sought in the French verb chanter. The "chanty," as it is now the custom to call it—pronounced "shanty," I believe, but I am very unwilling to have anything to do with it—is the modern generic appellation of the mariner's working song or chorus. It may be presumed that there is no landsman who needs to be told that when sailors heave upon a windlass, or wind round a capstan, or haul upon ropes, one of them will break into a song, which the rest at regular intervals pick up in a rousing chorus. These are Jack's working songs, and they are to be heard only on board ship.
//

Ouch! OK then, he really never heard 'chanty'! Still again -- I wonder where he first heard it. Has it been 'hurled' at sailors or landsmen by these 'moderns'?

//
The words of these compositions might make the exclusiveness intelligible were it not that some of the melodies are so pretty, so plaintive, so catching, so full of the salt aromas of the deep, as to make one wonder that they should not long ago have found their way ashore, fitted to words more proper for the drawing-room and the concert hall, than Jack's rhymes to them. Such airs as "Across the Western Ocean," "The Plains of Mexico," "Yon rolling River," "Blow, Boys, Blow," and a few others—not many, I admit—harmonized by an able musician, and associated with good poetry, should scarcely fail, I think, to captivate the shore-going ear, and hold to it with scarcely less tenacity than may be witnessed in its adherence to maritime memory and sympathy.
//

He has added SHENANDOAH and BLOW BOYS BLOW to his list.

I wonder if he read Adam's ROCKET of 1879. Lots of similarities in their expositions.

More on American origin of shanties:

//
I think it may be taken that we owe the sailors' working song as we now possess it to the Americans. How far do these songs date back ? I doubt if the most ancient amongst them is much older than the century. It is noteworthy that the old voyagers do not hint at the sailors singing out or encouraging their efforts by choruses when at work. In the navy, of course, this sort of song was never permitted. Work proceeded to the strains of a fiddle, to the piping of the boatswain and his mates, or in earlier times yet, to the trumpet. The working song then is peculiar to the Merchant Service, but one may hunt through the old chronicles without encountering a suggestion of its existence prior ot American independence and to the establishment of a Yankee marine. It is at least certain that the flavour of many of these songs is distinctly Transatlantic. The melodies it might be impossible to trace. Just as " Yankee Doodle " is an old English air Americanized by the inspirations of the Yankee poet, so there may be many an old tune that owed its existence to British brains appropriated by the Boston and New York lyrists, and fitted to words so racy of the soil as to render the whole production as entirely Yankee to the fancy as are the stripes and stars or the cotton white canvas of the ships of the States.
//

Attesting that despite steam, chanteys are still current:

//
But the working chorus takes a distinctive character when you think of it in reference to the small crew of a merchantman. Captains and mates so well understand the heartening influence of the song upon the sailor's toil, that half the official rhetoric of the forecastle and the quarter-deck is formed of entreaties to tbe men to sing out; to " Sing and make a noise, boys ! " To " Heave and pawl! " To " Heave and raise the dead ! " To " Sing to it, lads; sing to it!" A new song will sometimes be as good as a couple of new men to a ship's forecastle; hence in the merchant service sailors' songs, in the strict sense of the expression, are of incalculable value. To be sure in these days steam and patent machinery have diminished something of the obligation of these chants. A donkey engine does its work without a chorus; it needs not a fiddler to set a steam capstan revolving. But the manual windlass is still plentiful, the capstan bar of our forefathers is not yet out of date, though the single topsail is halved there is yet the upper yard to masthead; and these, with a hundred other jobs to be done aboard a sailing ship, keep the sailors' sea-song actively current.
//

Next he quotes from THE QUID (1832):

//
An old sailor recalls with a sigh the heaving of the capstan of his day. " It is one of the many soul-stirring scenes," he says, " that occur on board when all hands are turned up ; the motley group that man the bars, the fiddler stuck in a corner, the captain on the poop, encouraging the men to those desperate efforts that seem to the novice an attempt at pulling up the rocks by the root. It is a time of equality; idlers, stewards and servants, barbers and sweepers, cooks and cooks' mates, doctors' mates and loblolly boys; every man runs the same road, and hard and impenetrable is that soul that does not chime in with the old ditties, 'Pull away now, my Nancy O!' and the long ' Oh !' that precedes the more musical strain of—
" ' Oh, her love is a sailor,
His name is Jemmy Taylor;
He's gone in a whaler
To Hie Greenland Sea.'

" Or—
" Oh! if I had her,
Eh, then, if I had her,
Oh ! how I could love her,
Black although she be!'"
//

On improvisation, variability:

//
The sailor's trick of improvising furnishes a very varied character to his working songs. A man having exhausted all the rhymes he knows, with a good deal of pulling and hauling still remaining, will often venture upon a doggerel of his own instead of repeating what he has already said. "Words of certain songs have indeed a permanency, but I doubt if it would be possible to express the peculiar nature of the sailors' working songs, by printing the verses which are supposed to accompany the airs. Words are varied again and again; line after line is made up on the instant; the reader may reject with confidence any collection that is offered to him as samples of the poetry which Jack roars out when he heaves or drags. In truth, but a very little of the real thing would bear the light of day.
//

Lastly, he claims to be very familiar with shanties first hand. OK, I'll buy it. Funny thay he never prints any verses though.

//
I remember a lady writing to ask me to assist her in forming a collection of the sailors' working songs, and I could not help thinking that if by Jack's songs she meant the "chanties," as they are now called, she would be starting on a quest which I might expect to hear in a very little time she had relinquished with a hot face and a shocked heart. No, the mariner is not very choice in his language. His working ditties are a little too strong for print, on the whole. The few examples I have seen in type are Bowdlerized out of knowledge. He may have reformed in this matter of late years; he may sing nothing to-day that is not virginal in purity; but in my time—and it is not so very long ago either—his working choruses reeking with forecastle fancies, were as full of the unrepeatable and the unprintable as his biscuit was of weevils. In sea stories, however, the sailors' working song is seldom or never given. Dana will speak of the crew having struck up such and such an air—"Cheerily, Men," or "Heave to the Girls," or "Tally hi ho, you know," but he confines his reference to the titles.
//

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 05:18 PM

Russell's 1888 collection THE MYSTERY OF THE 'OCEAN STAR' has a version of his "Old Naval Songs" article above-- presumable collected in this volume. It's called "The Old Naval Sea-song." The chanty-related passage is the same. The preface is dated July 1888.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 05:09 PM

Russell has a story in Longman's Magazine Vol. 3 (Nov. 1883), called "Jack's Courtship."

//
Miss Hawke then somewhat bashfully asked if I would sing. (What! before ladies, thought I. Never!) I told her that my knowledge of music did not enable me to reach to anything higher than a windlass chorus.

'Then give us one of the old chanteys,' exclaimed my uncle. "Haul the Bowline," or "Whiskey, Johnny," or " Run, let the Bulljine run." Why, the mere sound of those old songs takes me back forty years, and I seem to be standing in the lee scuppers up to my neck, or holding on with my eyelids as I try to roll up the foreroyal single-handed.'
//

He adds BOWLINE to his repertoire. Still "chantey". Must have changed it to "chanty" later on.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 05:04 PM

Here's more from W. C. Russell. SAILOR'S LANGUAGE (London, 1883)

//
...I quote these verses at length, as a fair sample of the sort of " growling " Jack puts into his songs. Unfortunately he is somewhat limited in melodies. Some of them are very plaintive, such as "The Plains of Mexico " and "Across the Western Ocean," and others have a merry, light-hearted go, such as "Run, let the bulljine run!" "Whisky, Johnny!" "Time for us to go," " I served my time in the Blackwall Line."
//

He cites SANTIANA, ACROSS THE WESTERN OCEAN, RUN LET THE BULGINE RUN, WHISKEY JOHNNY, "Time for us to go", BLACKBALL LINE.

That's the earliest mention I've seen in print so far of "Run Let the Bulljine Run," suggesting it may be a unique addition. But then "Time for us to go" is one of those "lost" chanties of Dana. If he knows his chanties, why does he have to throw in Dana's titles?

In the continuation of the passage, he uses the term 'chantey'. Had that spelling turned up yet?

//
But the lack of variety is no obstruction to the sailor's
poetical inspiration when he wants the " old man" to know
his private opinions without expressing them to his face, and
so the same "chantey," as the windlass or halliard chorus is
called, furnishes the music to as many various indignant
remonstrances as Jack can find injuries to sing about.
//


Finally, he quotes the Salt Horse rhyme:

//
The provisions have for years been a sore subject with the sailor.
His beef and pork have earned more abuse from him than any
other thing he goes to sea with. " What's for dinner to-day,
Bill ? " I remember hearing a sailor ask another. " Measles,"
was the answer, that being the man's name for the pork aboard
his vessel. " Old horse," is the sailor's term for his salt beef;
and some old rhymes perhaps explain the reason :—

"Between the main-mast and the pumps
There stands a cask of Irish junks;
And if you won't believe it true,
Look, and you'll see the hoof and shoe.
Salt horse, salt horse, what brought you here,
After carrying turf for so many a year,
From Bantry Bay to Ballyack,
Where you fell down and broke your back ?
With kicks, and thumps, and sore abuse,
You're salted down for sailor's use.
They eat your flesh and pick your bones,
Then throw you over to Davy Jones."
//

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 04:44 PM

Great info!

This testimony of Russell, coupled with his details, is thought provoking.

I too believe Russell when he says he didn't hear the word "chanty". But I am not sure what exactly that means for us.

Should we take it as some evidence that the word really was not common at sea ca. 1857-1865? Sure, that's possible. But though I am on board with the idea that the word didnt become common until relatively late (vagueness intended), it seems unlikely to me that it would go *this* late. If the first print mentions of chanty/shanty are 1867/1868, one could equally argue that terms are around awhile (e.g. at sea) before they get into print.

Or should we take it that 'chanty' was simply not in Russell's *personal* experience. Was he only in Navy ships? If so, that might explain why, if it was common, he did not come across it. Perhaps he heard sailors singing chanties but was not involved in them much.

It could also be that he sailed in British vessels and at that time 'chanty' was not there. This would inadvertently (?) help to prove his point about chanties originating in America. I think it was Steve Gardham who was investigating a while back the date at which shanties became prevalent in British ships.

It would be interesting to know how it is that now (i.e. 1880s -- he has earlier works with similar material) he knows the word 'chanty.' What has he been reading or hearing? (FWIW, the prominent 1868 and 1869 articles use the "shanty" spelling.) Has he since been observing sailors' speech? Or is his knowledge based in his reading?

I am not convinced (yet) that Russell knew much about chanteying from first hand experience, despite his nautical credentials in some areas. I prefer to read this for what it says (doesn't say?) *about* knowledge of chanteying.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 10:10 AM

Though born in NYC, W. Clark Russell (1844-1911) was a very popular and respected English writer of sea stories. His father, Henry Russell, was the composer of the parlor song, "A LIfe on the Ocean Wave." The younger Russell was born in NYC, but both parents were English and he sailed on British ships, making his first voyage as a midshipman in 1857. He left the sea in 1865.

So I believe him when he says he can't recall hearing the word "chanty/shanty" used at sea. Remember that except for Nordhoff's (American) testimony from the 1840s, the word doesn't appear in print till 1868, after Russell had swallowed the anchor. As Nordhoff connects the word with the cotton-stowers of New Orleans, it may not have become generally applied to shipboard songs, even in the Gulf and the Caribbean, till during or just after the Civil War. Russell's observation should be taken seriously.

Neither Whall nor Robinson, who served at sea in Russell's time, insist that they'd heard the songs actually *called* shanties by the mid '60s. Even if they had, that doesn't mean that the word was universally known, as it apparently was by the '70s. (Without the broadcast media, new words didn't become entrenched as quickly then as now; even Davis & Tozier in 1888 thought they needed to put the word in quotes.)

When Russell wrote "in the forecastle," he meant, like many writers, "among deckhands," and not literally in the forecastle.

Russell's opinion that shantying arose in American ships looks more and more likely all the time.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 07:31 AM

In Longman's Magazine Vol 12 (June 1888) there is an article "Old Naval Songs." The author, W. Clark Russell, sees fit to bring in chanties, although he familiarity with them is questionable. Several that he mentions are clearly pulled from Dana's TWO YEARS, but he passes of the titles as if they were songs that were part of his experience.

//
THERE are two kinds of sea-songs: those which are sung at concerts and in drawing-rooms, and sometimes, but not very often, at sea, and those which are never heard off shipboard. The latter have obtained in this age the name of ' chanty,' a term which I do not recollect ever having heard when I was following the life. It is obviously manufactured out of the French verb, and there is a 'longshore twang about it which cannot but sound disagreeably to the elderly nautical ear.
//

Hmm. Never heard the term 'chanty'? Possible. When did he sail?

//
This sort of song is designed to lighten and assist the sailor's toil. It is an air that enables a number of men pulling upon a rope to regulate their combined exertions. It is also a song for sailors to sing as they tramp round a capstan and heave upon a windlass. Of the melodies of many of them it is difficult to trace the paternity. Some are so engaging that they might well be regarded as the compositions of musicians of genius, who wrote them with little suspicion of the final uses to which they would be put. Why their destination, having been sung perhaps at the harpsichord and the guitar by ladies and gentlemen, should be the forecastle; why, being appropriated by the sailor they should be so peculiarly his, that no one else ever dreams of singing them, there is no use in attempting to guess.
//

Forecastle? He's talking about chanties, right?

//
The reader will not require me to tell him that the marine working songs are to be heard only in the Merchant Service. In a ship of war the uproar caused by the hoarse bawling of half-a-dozen gangs of men scattered about the decks would be intolerable, nor could the working song be of service to the blue-jackets, who are quite numerous enough to manage without it. It was always so, indeed ; a frigate getting under way would flash into canvas in a breath ; sails were sheeted home, yards hoisted, jibs and staysails run up, and the anchor tripped, as though the complicated mechanism were influenced by a single controlling power producing simultaneously a hundred different effects. There were men enough to do everything, and all at once ; but the ship's company of the merchantman were always too few for her. A mercantile sailor is expected to do the work of two, and, at a pinch, of three and even four. When one job is done he has to spring to another. There are 'stations' indeed in such manoeuvres as tacking or wearing; but when, for instance, it comes to shortening sail in a hurry, or when the necessity arises for a sudden call for all hands, the merchant sailor lays hold of the first rope it is necessary to drag on, and when he has ' belayed' it, he is expected to fling himself upon the next rope that has to be pulled. Here we have the secret of the usefulness of the working song. Let the words be what they will, the melody animates the seaman with spirit and he pulls with a will; it helps him to keep time too, so that not so much as an ounce of the united weight of the hauling and bawling fellows misses of its use on the tackle they drag at. I have known seamen at work on some job that required a deal of heavy and sustained pulling, to labour as if all heart had gone out of them whilst one of the gang tried song after song ; the mate meanwhile standing by and encouraging them with the familiar official rhetoric; till on a sudden an air has been struck up that acted as if by magic. The men not only found their own strength, every fellow became as good as two. This, I believe, will be the experience of most merchant sailors.
//

OK, so more confirmation of the lack of chanties in navy ships, and the reasons why.

Next, types of chanties:

//
There are tunes to fit every kind of work on board ship; short cheerful melodies for jobs soon accomplished, over which a captain would not allow time to be wasted in singing (for I am bound to say that the disposition of a sailor is to make a very great deal of singing go to the smallest possible amount of pulling), such as hauling out a bowline, mastheading one of the lighter yards, or boarding a tack. Other working choruses, again, are as long as a ship's cable. These are sung at the capstan or at the windlass, when the intervals between the starting of the solo and the coming in of the chorus do not hinder the work an instant.
//

Next he states he could not fins mention of chanties in older British accounts, concluding they may be American in origin:

//
It would be interesting to know when and by whom the working song was first introduced into the British Merchant Service. In old books of voyages no reference whatever is made to it. There is not a sentence in the collections from Hakluyt down to Burney to indicate that when the early sailors pushed at handspikes or dragged upon the rigging they animated their labours with songs and choruses. I have some acquaintance with the volumes of Shelvocke, Funnell, and other marine writers of the last century, but though many of them, such as Ringrose, Dumpier, Cooke, Snelgrave, and particularly Woodes Rogers, enter very closely into the details of the shipboard work of their time, they are to a man silent on this question of singing. It is for this reason that I would attribute the origin of the practice to the Americans.
//

//
If most of the forecastle melodies still current at sea be not the composition of Yankees, the words, at all events, are sufficiently tinctured by American sentiment to render my conjecture plausible. The titles of many of these working songs have a strong flavour of Boston and New York about them. 'Across the Western Ocean'; 'The Plains of Mexico'; 'Run, let the Bulljine, run !' 'Bound to the Rio Grande '; these and many more which I cannot immediately recollect betray to my mind a transatlantic inspiration. 'Heave to the Girls'; 'Cheerly, Men'; 'A dandy ship and a dandy crew'; 'Tally hi ho! You know'; ' Hurrah! hurrah! my hearty bullies'; and scores more of a like kind, all of them working songs never to be heard off the decks of a ship, are racy in air and words of the soil of the States.
//

'Heave to the Girls', 'Tally hi ho! You know', 'Hurrah! hurrah! my hearty bullies'
'Cheerly, Men', 'A dandy ship and a dandy crew' -- clearly come from Dana.

'Bound to the Rio Grande' could be his observation. But that exact wording appeared also in Chambers's Journal, 1869.

'Across the Western Ocean' - This exact phrase has not turned up yet in this thread.

'The Plains of Mexico' -- was there prior.

'Run, let the Bulljine, run!' -- I'm seeing this for the first time.


Then he moves onto sea songs, emphasizing the improvised, incidental, and 'doggerel' nature of chanty verses:

//
The other kind of songs—the songs of Charles and Thomas Dibdin, Shield, Arnold, Arne, Boyce, &c., are of a very different order. The working song is often at best but little more than unintelligible doggerel. It is the sailor's trick to improvise as he goes along, and rhyme and reason are entirely subordinate to the obligation of shouting out something. But the sea-song, as landsmen understand the term, is accepted as a composition of meaning and even of poetry...
//

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Nov 10 - 05:39 AM

Well now. Here's a song that's quite a lot like "Blow, Boys, Blow".

NEGRO SINGER'S OWN BOOK, pp239:

//
ORIGINAL OLE TAR RIVER

Banjo and ance accompaniments.
Sung by the Virginia Minstrels.

Its way down in ole Carolinar,
    Oh, ah, oh, ah
'Twar on de bank ob ole Tar riber,
    Dah, da, tiddle dum de da.

'Tis dar I met Aramintah Glober
She wanted me but I choose anudder.

Jim Carron katch a turkey buzzard
Black Betsy charmed dis nigger's gizzard

Her figure set dis heart a trotting
Her shabe war like a bale ob cotting

I ride upon de rolling riber
Wid a sail made ob a waggon kiver

Ole fat Sam died ob de decline
An dey dried him for a bacon sign

Is dere any one here loves massa Jackson
Yes I's de nigga loves General Jackson

He had a wife and a big plantation
De odder one in de choctaw nation

He thrashed the red coats at Orleans
He gib Packenham all sorts of beans

He is growing old, and will hab to leab us
His going will make a nation griebous

Along come a nigger wid a long tail coat
He wanted to borrow a tend dollar note
Says I go away, nigger, I ain't got a red cent
//

If the Virginia Minstrels sang this -- perhaps circa 1843 -- would they still be that obsessed w/ Andrew Jackson enough to make a new song? Or could we guess that they were performing a much older song? Jackson died in 1845, so it was created before then. And the line about "he's going to leave us" makes perfect sense for 1843-ish. But still I wonder if the subject matter wasn't original developed back just after the War of 1812. Notably, no composer is credited.

It does have the form of a halyard chantey/ rowing song, but there's no way to tell if that's what it originally was.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 02:09 AM

Whoops -- so I guess some of you guys already discussed the "A Yankee Ship and a Yankee Crew" song when talking about Dana's shanties. It doesn't seem like a chanty to me but I think it can reasonably be conjectured that it is related to the Tally I O szanty. I am at a loss, however, to say whether the "real" Tally chantey may have influenced it, or if the shanty was based in the song.

I am going to leave it aside for the purpose of this thread, because I don't think there is sufficient grounds to call it an attestation of chanteying happening. And because the "Darkey Crew" seems just a parody of the popular song, for the time being I am going to leave it out of things, too.

re: Fanny Elssler/Grog Time

My hypothetical scenario of the sich is as follows. "Grog Time of Day" was a chanty in use since at least the 1810s. In the early 1840s, the dockworkers in NOLA indeed sang something of that form when Fanny was leaving. An observer wrote a news article about it, including reconstructed lyrics. The author of NEGRO'S OWN used that recent news article as one of his sources in compiling his songster. Later, the author of ART OF BALLET used the hypothetical news article as a source for his historical account.

Whatever the details, I think there is enough to safely assume that *some* version of "Grog Time" was observed in the early '40s in NOLA.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:34 AM

And here's "A Yankee Ship and a Yankee Crew" from 1840 -- it's Tally I O!. Gotta wait till later to dissect it, but enjoy!

http://books.google.com/books?id=9IwvAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA34&dq=%22yankee+ship+and+a+ya

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:28 AM

Frank does not reference ART OF BALLET as far as I have been able to discover. At least he does not seem to mention it in JOLLY SAILORS BOLD. He does refer us back to his unpublished Ph.D. dissertation at Brown University (1985) "Ballads and Songs of the Whale-Hunters, 1825-1895; from Manuscripts in the Kendall whaling Museum". There may be a bibliographical reference in this earlier work, but I obviously don't have access to that.

Thanks for "A Darkey Band and a Darkey Crew", Gibb. It sounds like a working song. I am also intrigued by your suggestion that the "Fanny" song may have started out as an actual working song and then been taken up in a collection of "Negro" songs, and ended up on a whale man's list of songs.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 08:10 AM

Very interesting, Gibb! Surely the form, at least, of "Fanny Elssler" preserves that of the "Grog Time of Day" shanty. (Or have we already established that? I forget.) The "hoist away" chorus shows that the minstrel at least had a work song in mind. Too bad there's no tune.

The song reminds me in vague ways (scansion and sentiment) of both "Blow Boys Blow" and "Shallow, Shallow Brown." But that may not mean anything.

Subject: Lyr Add: A DARKEY BAND AND A DARKEY CREW
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 07:33 AM

NEGRO SINGER'S OWN BOOK has a song that appears to be related to a chanty. On pg. 180, it's:

A DARKEY BAND AND A DARKEY CREW.

Tune -- "Yankee Ship."

A darkey band and a darkey crew,
    Tally ya ha higho!
Are out in de West care killers so true,
    Ya ha! ha! an' higho!
We spread our sail to de talkin' breeze,
    An' we pull away de oar,
An' den wid some whiskey, bread an' chew,
    Our songs de ribber out roar.

    A darkey band and a darkey crew,
          Tally ya ha! higho!
    Are out in de West, care killers true,
          Ya ha! ha! an higho!

A darkey band and a darkey crew,
    Tally ya ha higho!
Can see when de sky am black an' blue,
    Ya ha! ha! an' higho!
We travel up and down de stream,
    Wid our hog an' our coon skin store
An' we nebber put on de steam,
    Till we get on de shore

    A darkey band and a darkey crew,
          Tally ya ha! higho!
    Are out in de West, care killers true,
          Ya ha! ha! an higho!
//

I suppose this fits TALLY I O, no? It could also work, to some extent with "Blow Boys Blow". We already have attestations of TALLY from the 1830s-40s, so this would be consistent with that.

What is notable is the reference tune "Yankee Ship." One assumes it would have to be familiar enough already to be referenced as such. And we can guess that "Yankee Ship" was a chanty. Perhaps it began w/ the stock line (i.e. which is being parodied here), "A Yankee ship and a yankee crew..." Or was this *not* a parody? This song itself makes reference to riverboat travel, and also to rowing.

Even though this is a popular song given without context, I think there is enough to say that it provides evidence of some sort of chanty being widespread then. I can tentatively speculate that that chanty was "Tally I O."

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:53 AM

...also lots of dwelling on "bullgines" and General Taylor all over the place in this collection.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 06:35 AM

I've been able to see a copy of NEGRO SINGER'S OWN BOOK. I had to get it on an interlibrary loan, and even then it was just on microfilm.

It's a songster without any author given. In fact, the introduction is written in eye-dialect or minstrel language, and signed by "Ole Hardtimes." However, WorldCat attributes it to "Henry B Anthony". Neither is any date given, but WorldCat says "no earlier than 1843." That seems to be based on the fact that it purports to contain "every Negro song that has ever been sung or printed," and yet it is limited to earlier tunes. It's long--448 pp. No organization scheme that I noticed. Many songs are repeated several times, here and there. Seems like a third of them are set to the tune of "Dan Tucker." No music notation, but in a majority of cases a familiar tune is referenced.

There are several interesting examples in it that could point to the origin of certain chanties. I am curious to know what influenced a songster like this might have had on chanties. My assumption is that chanties inspired by minstrel songs would have developed from hearing the songs in live performances. However, the discussion above, that a whaleman jotted down in his journal some songs from this one, makes me wonder if written texts were any contributing factor?

Anyway, the discussion above, which led me to look for this book, was about GROG TIME in the Fanny Elssler context.
In NEGRO SINGER'S it appears as 3 verses (6 lines), pg. 337:

//
FANNY ELSSLER LEAVING N. ORLEANS

Fanny, is you gwyne up de riber,
       Grog time o' day;
When all dese here's got Elslur feber?
       Oh, hoist away.
De Lord knows what we'll do widout you,
       Grog time o' day;
De toe an' heel won't dance widout you.
       Oh, hoist away.
Dey say you dances like a fedder
       Grog time o' day;
Wid tree tousand dollars all togedder.
       Oh, hoist away!
//

Absolutely nothing else is given. Most of the songs in the book are attributed to a performing minstrel artist or group, if not the composer, too. That this has no such notes suggests (to me) that it was not only a "real" worksong but that also it was not (yet, at least) co-opted as a stage song. I imagine it must have been taken from, say, a newspaper report, and included in the interest of making the "ultimate collection of negro songs EVER, dude!!"

Stuart Frank may then have gotten his idea of it as a cargo loading song, etc, from THE ART OF BALLET. A peak at his bibliography would confirm this, unless he does it as a "Works Cited" format.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 08 Nov 10 - 01:06 PM

Hi John,

I have been wondering the same. Perhaps the only really "safe" way to do a literary survey is to go chronologically by date of publication...and yet my own interest is in something other than a history of *writings on* chanties, so the attempt has been to follow the chanties, themselves, chronologically. Considerably less certain, but up until the 1870s I don't think it was so bad. There weren't *too many* instances of the publication date being far later than the time described. And even those later publication dates might be said to have been in the "not yet too contaminated" era which is worth something.

As I said, 1870s got more tough. And I felt unsure, for example, about using THE CLIPPER SHIP SHEILA, 1912, to get statements reported to be about 1849. I'm a little worried I've mixed in bad data with good. Having included it speaks to the multiple purposes I have in mind. One of those is simply recording and extracting info from the texts that are not focused on chanties.

Even though the chronological (by date of publication) survey is not my main goal (it is certainly of interest to me, and it's sort of hovering in the back of my head at the same time)...nonetheless I think the best method at this point would be to stay grounded by following that technique. I am going to continue looking for and discussing references published in the earliest times possible -- now that basically means 1880s. I'll deal with, say, Whall's chanties (possibly all learned in 1860s-70s) once we get to the 1910s, and retroactively add them to the various lists.

I expect to go at least into the 1910s before stopping; I have lots of bookmarks up through then!

In the end, the data will still all be there, to be rearranged however one wants to. But I think if we move along this way -- keeping the date of attribution as close as possible to the date of 'publication' (/recording) -- then it will remain most coherent.

Gibb

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 08:22 AM

Lots of good work, Gibb. Do we stop here or do we try to figure out how we got from here to the "later collections"? There seem to be some interesting discontinuities, but I'm not sure how to lay them out. You've done an excellent job pointing out on numerous occasions some of the probable "continuities" where someone has "borrowed" from someone else. But is it my reading or something else that a significant number of the chanties that we have found so far don't show up in the "later collections"? And almost all of a sudden "new" ones (albeit somewhat more familiar to us at times) start showing up.   What happened?

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:10 AM

And here's the overall list of chanties that have turned up, up through the 1870s (again, not accounting for the material in later collections or on recordings by people who sailed in the 1870s). It is based on the sources we've dug up in this thread.

ACROSS THE WESTERN OCEAN (2)
And England's blue for ever"
Black although she be"
BLACKBALL LINE (2)
BLOW BOYS BLOW (2)
BLOW THE MAN DOWN (2)
BONEY (2)
BOTTLE O (1)
BOWLINE (6)
BULLY IN ALLEY (1)
BUNCH OF ROSES (1)
Captain gone ashore!"
Cheerily she goes"
CHEERLY (12)
DRUNKEN SAILOR (1)
FIRE FIRE (2)
GOOD MORNING LADIES (1)
GOODBYE FARE YOU WELL (2)
GOODBYE MY LOVE (1)
GROG TIME (1)
Hah, hah, rolling John" (1)
Hand ober hand, O"
HANDY MY BOYS (1)
HANGING JOHNNY (1)
HAUL AWAY JOE (5)
Heave and she goes, stamp and she goes"
HEAVE AWAY MY JOHNNIES (4)
Heave her away"
Heave him up! O he yo!"
Heave round hearty!"
Heave, to the girls!"
HIGHLAND (2)
Highland day and off she goes"
HILO BOYS (3)
Ho, O, heave O"
HOOKER JOHN (1)
HUNDRED YEARS (2)
Hurrah! hurrah! my hearty bullies!"
Jack Cross-tree,"
John, John Crow is a dandy, O"
JOHNNY BOWKER (2)
Johnny's gone"
Land ho"
LOWLANDS AWAY (2)
Miranda Lee"
MOBILE BAY (1)
MONEY DOWN (1)
MR. STORMALONG (1)
Nancy Bell"
Nancy oh!"
O ee roll & go"
O! hurrah my hearties O!"
Oceanida"
Oh fare you well, my own Mary Anne"
OH RILEY (1)
Oh Sally Brown, Sally Brown, oh!"
ONE MORE DAY (1)
OUTWARD AND HOMEWARD BOUND (2)
PADDY DOYLE (1)
PADDY LAY BACK (1)
PADDY ON THE RAILWAY (4)
Pull away now, my Nancy, O!"
REUBEN RANZO (4)
RIO GRANDE (3)
ROUND THE CORNER (3)
RUN LET THE BULGINE RUN (1)
SACRAMENTO (1)
SAILOR FIREMAN (1)
SALLY BROWN (3)
Sally in the Alley"
SANTIANA (5)
SHENANDOAH (6)
SLAPANDER (1)
STORMALONG JOHN (1)
STORMY (7)
STORMY ALONG (1)
TALLY (2)
Time for us to go!"
TOMMY'S GONE (1)
Walk away"
WALKALONG SALLY (1)
When first we went a-waggoning"
WHISKEY JOHNNY (6)
Whisky for Johnny!"

Of these, the most cited shanties have been:

1. CHEERLY (12 times)
2. STORMY (7)
3. BOWLINE (6) / WHISKEY JOHNNY (6) / SHENANDOAH (6)

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 06 Nov 10 - 03:06 AM

Here's the "set list" I've compiled for the 1870s attributions. It is just based on what is in this thread, i.e. "minor" sources -- doesn't included the later, big collections that might contain material heard in the '70s.

1870s

BLACKBALL LINE (1)
BLOW BOYS BLOW (1)
BLOW THE MAN DOWN (1)
BOWLINE (2)
CHEERLY (1)
GOODBYE FARE YOU WELL (1)
GOODBYE MY LOVE (1)
HAUL AWAY JOE (3)
HEAVE AWAY MY JOHNNIES (2)
HILO BOYS (1)
JOHNNY BOWKER (1)
REUBEN RANZO (2)
RIO GRANDE (1)
SHENANDOAH (2)
Walk away" (1)
WHISKEY JOHNNY (3)

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 03:21 AM

And one more reference from the above:

//
We hear the mate sing out in a pleasant, cheery voice: "Now, then, boys, heave away on the windlass breaks; strike a light, it's duller than an old graveyard." And the chantyman, in an advanced stage of hilarious intoxication, gay as a skylark, sails into song:

"In eighteen hundred and forty-six,
I found myself in the hell of a fix,
A-working on the railway, the railway, the railway.
Oh, poor Paddy works on the railway.

"In eighteen hundred and forty-seven,
When Dan O'Connolly went to heaven,
He worked upon the railway, the railway, the railway.
Poor Paddy works on the railway, the railway.

"In eighteen hundred and forty-eight,
I found myself bound for the Golden Gate,
A-working on the railway, the railway.
Oh, poor Paddy works on the railway, the railway.

"In eighteen hundred and forty-nine,
I passed my time in the Black Ball Line,
A-working on the railway, the railway,
I weary on the railway,
Poor Paddy works on the railway, the railway."
//

It's PADDY ON THE RAILWAY at the brake windlass.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 03:03 AM

One reference that hasn't been logged here yet is Clark's THE CLIPPER SHIP ERA (1912). I am taking the liberty of reproducing John Minear's introduction from elsewhere on Mudcat, then I will break down the passages.

In his book THE CLIPPER SHIP ERA, Arthur Hamilton Clark says, "In the year 1849, 91,405 passengers landed at San Francisco from various ports of the world, of almost every nationality under the sun...." (p.101). That is simply astounding! And what is even more astounding is that so far nobody has turned up anything at all with regard to what just one or two or a dozen of these "Argonauts" might have written down about the work songs that they heard during their voyage to California. And we know they did write things down, in letters and journals and diaries and newspapers. They wrote about all kinds of things. But so far, not about sea chanties.

Clark does have a very detailed chapter, Chapter VII, "The Rush For California - A Sailing Day", in which he lays out what a sailing day from New York harbor would have been like. The problem is that is is not an actual historical account of an actual day, but an idealized account of a re-imagined day. However, Clark was around in those days and his accounts otherwise seem to be accurate and taken as an authority on things.

In this account, he mentions that "Almost every seaport along the Atlantic coast, sent one or more vessels (to California in 1849), and they all carried passengers." (pp. 100-101). In this chapter he says quite a bit about chanties. He says,

       "The people who gathered at Battery Park to see a clipper ship get under way, came partly to hear the sailors sing their sea songs, or chanties, which were an important part of sea life in those days, giving a zest and cheeriness on shipboard, which nothing else could supply." (pp. 109-110).

In his description of the process of a clipper ship putting to sea, he specifically mentions a number of chanties and gives lyrics and tells how and when and what they were used for: "Poor Paddy Works On The Railway", "Paddy Doyle's Boots", "Whiskey Johnny", "Lowlands", and "Hah, Hah, rolling John" ("Blow Boys Blow"). Not only is this probably an accurate list, but the lyrics he gives are probably what were actually sung on board those clipper ships headed to California. His book is specifically about the years from 1843-1869. But it was not published until 1912, and the Preface is dated 1910, about 60 years after the days of the Gold Rush.

Here is the extended reflection on chanties:

//
The people who gathered at Battery Park to see a clipper ship get under way, came partly to hear the sailors sing their sea songs, or chanties, which were an important part of sea life in those days, giving a zest and cheeriness on shipboard, which nothing else could supply. It used to be said that a good chanty man was worth four men in a watch, and this was true, for when a crew knocked off chantying, there was something wrong—the ship seemed lifeless. These songs originated early in the nineteenth century, with the negro stevedores at Mobile and New Orleans, who sung them while screwing cotton bales into the holds of the American packet ships; this was where the packet sailors learned them. The words had a certain uncouth, fantastic meaning, evidently the product of undeveloped intelligence, but there was a wild, inspiring ring in the melodies, and, after a number of years, they became unconsciously influenced by the pungent, briny odor and surging roar and rhythm of the ocean, and howling gales at sea. Landsmen have tried in vain to imitate them; the result being no more like genuine sea songs than skimmed milk is like Jamaica rum.
//

Hmm, interesting idea that back circa 1849 people were getting into listening to sailors' chanties. Had they entered the 'public consciousness'? I wonder why it took a while, then, for them to be written about. It's difficult to say, when this book was written so many years later. However, what *is* quite notable is that circa 1910 (date of the book's Preface), someone clearly had the idea that chanties originated with cotton-screwers "early in the nineteenth century".

Here is the recreation of preparations to sail, with chanties:

//
..."Maintop there, lay down on the main-yard and light the foot of that sail over the stay." " That's well, belay starboard." " Well the mizzentopsail sheets, belay." " Now then, my bullies, lead out your topsail halliards fore and aft and masthead her." " Aye, aye, sir." By this time the mate has put some ginger into the crew and longshoremen, and they walk away with the three topsail halliards:

"Away, way, way, yar,
We'll kill Paddy Doyle for his boots." ...
//

I am not sure what they mean by "walk away" here. I imagine it is not walking away while hoisting the yard, but rather just walking away with the *slack* of the halyards. I'd appreciate any thoughts. If this is the case, then this is certainly an unfamiliar use of PADDY DOYLE. What I don't think is happening: they are not using Paddy Doyle as a halyard chanty.

Continuing...

//
"Now then, long pulls, my sons." " Here, you chantyman, haul off your boots, jump on that maindeck capstan and strike a light; the best in your locker." " Aye, aye, sir." And the three topsailyards go aloft with a ringing chanty that can be heard up in Beaver Street:

"Then up aloft that yard must go,
Whiskey for my Johnny.
Oh, whiskey is the life of man,
Whiskey, Johnny.
I thought I heard the old man say,
Whiskey for my Johnny.
We are bound away this very day,
Whiskey, Johnny.
A dollar a day is a white man's pay,
Whiskey for my Johnny.
Oh, whiskey killed my sister Sue,
Whiskey, Johnny,
And whiskey killed the old man, too,
Whiskey for my Johnny.
Whiskey's gone, what shall I do ?
Whiskey, Johnny,
Oh, whiskey's gone, and I 'll go too,
Whiskey for my Johnny."

"Belay your maintopsail halliards." " Aye, aye, sir." And so the canvas is set fore and aft, topsails, topgallantsails, royals, and skysails, flat as boards, the inner and outer jibs are run up and the sheets hauled to windward; the main- and afteryards are braced sharp to the wind, the foretopsail is laid to the mast, and the clipper looks like some great seabird ready for flight. ...
//

The WHISKEY JOHNNY verses seem slightly mixed up, but reasonably authentic nonetheless. Then...

//
The anchor is hove up to:

"I wish I was in Slewer's Hall,
Lowlands, lowlands, hurra, my boys,
A-drinking luck to the old Black Ball,
My dollar and a half a day." ...
//

Nice verse. Interestingly, I believe this is the earliest (?) claim for LOWLANDS AWAY -- in the sense it is ~attributed~ to being sung in 1849. I believe the earliest print reference was Alden's 1882 mention. And this one has the "dollar and a half a day" chorus.

Continued...

//
And while some of the hands bring the anchor to the rail with cat and fish tackle, and:
"A Yankee sloop came down the river,
Hah, hah, rolling John,

Oh, what do you think that sloop had in her?
Hah, hah, rolling John,
Monkey's hide and bullock's liver,
Hah, hah, rolling John," ...
//

Catting anchor here, using a halyard chanty form. There was some discussion about the possible relatives of this "Rolling John" in the "Sydney/SF" thread, viz. "Blow Boys Blow," "Sally Brown," and Sharp's "What's in the Pot a-boiling?"

Another idealistic description of the early 1850s come later on:

//
Then when the sun has dried out ropes and canvas, the gear is swayed up fore and aft, with watch tackles on the chain topsail sheets, and a hearty:

"Way haul away,
Haul away the bowline,
Way haul away, Haul away, Joe!" ...
//

HAUL AWAY JOE for sheets. Next is the halyard chanty REUBEN RANZO:

//
The halliards are led along the deck fore and aft in the grip of clean brawny fists with sinewy arms and broad backs behind them, the ordinary seamen and boys tailing on, and perhaps the cook, steward, carpenter, and sailmaker lending a hand, and all hands join in a ringing chorus of the ocean, mingling in harmony with the clear sky, indigo-blue waves, and the sea breeze purring aloft among the spars and rigging:

"Oh, poor Reuben Ranzo,
Ranzo, boys, O Ranzo,
Oh, Ranzo was no sailor,
Ranzo boys, O Ranzo.
So they shipped him aboard a whaler,
Ranzo boys, O Ranzo,
And he could not do his duty,
Ranzo boys, O Ranzo.
So the mate, he being a bad man,
Ranzo boys, O Ranzo,
He led him to the gangway,
Ranzo boys, O Ranzo,
And he gave him five-and-twenty,
Ranzo boys, O Ranzo,
But the captain, he being a good man,
Ranzo boys, O Ranzo,
He took him in the cabin,
Ranzo boys, O Ranzo,
And he gave him wine and whiskey,
Ranzo boys, O Ranzo,
And he learned him navigation,
Ranzo boys, O Ranzo,
And now he's Captain Ranzo,
Ranzo boys, O Ranzo."
//

Then, for the pumps, it is the chanty Hugill titles RUN LET THE BULGINE RUN:

//
Finally the mate's clear, sharp order comes: "Belay there; clap a watch tackle on the lee fore brace." "Aye, aye, sir!" And so every sheet, halliard, and brace is swayed up and tautened to the freshening breeze. The gear is coiled up, the brasswork polished until it glistens in the morning sun, the paintwork and gratings are wiped off, decks swabbed dry, and the pumps manned to another rousing chanty:

"London town is a-burning,
Oh, run with the bullgine, run.
Way, yay, way, yay, yar,
Oh, run with the bullgine, run."
//

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 03:04 AM

Here's the link to Symondson:

TWO YEARS ABAFT THE MAST

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 02:58 AM

When last I was tending to this thread we were sifting through references to chantying in the 1870s. The discussion by this point has become quite sticky, because even contemporary references from the 1870s are potentially "contaminated" by the available articles from the late '60s. Still, I'll go on with trying to cite activity attributed to the 70s, with the caveat that , for the sake of time, the authenticity of each source is not being verified.

There is a travelogue by Symondson from 1876, TWO YEARS ABAFT THE MAST, that describes his voyage in an English merchant ship SEA QUEEN. Based on the date of the preface (Sept 1876), the voyage must have started in fall of 1874 or earlier. "Chanties" are mentioned by name several times. The term is used in quotes, still suggesting, perhaps, its relative newness.

When attempting to leave London, there's this:

//
Tuesday, at eleven o'clock, the third mate returned aboard, accompanied by Mr H (one of the owners), with instructions from the owners to return to Gravesend. We were not a little amused whilst heaving round the windlass at seeing Mr H leaning over the bulwarks deplorably sick. Our putting back made the men strike up the wellknown homeward-bound "chanty"—

" Good-bye, fare-ye-well;
Good-bye, fare-ye-well!"
//

When this author says "windlass" he means capstan. So it is GOODBYE FARE YOU WELL, which I think is more of a brake windlass chanty, but here we have it for capstan.

Off Portland we have this:

//
We filled up with water and took aboard some fresh meat; and the wind having hauled round to N.E., with fine and clear weather, we weighed anchor to the tune of the "chanty,"—"I served my time in the Black Ball Line,"—and proceeded out by the west entrance of the breakwater.
//

We don't associate BLACKBALL LINE with weighing anchor by capstan today. However, the one prior reference to Blackball Line, from the 1868 "On Shanties" articles, also puts it as a capstan chanty. Weird.

Next, when in Sydney Harbour:

//
Whilst heaving up anchor prior to the tug towing us to the wharf, we had some good "chanties " —for Jack's spirits are at their highest at the thoughts of a run ashore. The "chanty" known under the name of " The Rio Grande" is particularly pretty, the chorus being:—

"Heave away, my bonny boys, we are all bound to Rio.
          Ho ! and heigho!
Come fare ye well, my pretty young girl,
      For we're bound to the Rio Grande."
//

So, RIO GRANDE.

Later while Sydney Harbour is being described generally:

//
As the sun slowly vanishes away, the perspective becomes blue and purple, the sky settles into a bright greenish hue, and the noise and flutter cease, to be replaced by an almost unbroken silence, made all the more noticeable by its suddenness. The plaintive notes of a distant sailor's " chanty " or call alone break upon one's ear at intervals; and sweetly pretty they sound, particularly at such a time and place.
//

Ooh, chanties are still 'plaintive'!

Another general comment -- giving some insight on non-Anglophones knowing chanties:

//
Since the introduction of steam, there has been a large proportion of foreigners in the English merchant service — mostly Germans, Swedes, Dutchmen, and Russian Fins. All foreigners are called " Dutchmen " at sea. However, those who sail out of England on long
voyages, have mostly been so long in our service, that practically they are Englishmen, knowing our "chanties" and sea-rules better than their own.
//

On the difference between Navy and merchant ships, the author reconfirms what we understand to be the case, that chanties were not part of Navy practice:

//
Merchant Jack laughs with contempt as he watches their crew in uniform dress, walking round the windlass, weighing anchor like mechanical dummies. No hearty "chanties" there—no fine chorus ringing with feeling and sentiment, brought out with a sort of despairing wildness, which so often strikes neighbouring landsfolk with the deepest emotion. He likes to growl—and he may, so long as he goes about his work. I have heard mates say—Give me a man that can growl: the more he growls, the more he works. Silence reigns supreme aboard a Queen's ship; no general order is given by word of mouth—the boatswain's whistle takes its place.
//

"Despairing wildness"! Nice.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 08:36 PM

Back in May, John wrote:

Here is an interesting book published in 1921 about the maiden voyage of the clipper ship, "Sheila" in 1877, by the Captain, W. H. Angel, called THE CLIPPER SHIP "SHEILA" . Interspersed throughout this detailed account are sea shanties. They are not usually put into work contexts, but merely given as examples. Do they come from this voyage in 1877, or from later recollections/collections? I can't tell from scanning the text and there are no clues otherwise.

Due to a discussion with Lighter on the 'Rare Caribbean..." thread, I am suspecting that the chanty info in Angel's book is not reliable. At this point, I suspect that at least his "Stand to Your Ground" was copied from Whall's 1910 collection. Another tell-tale is the item called "Unmooring" in both texts. Another thing I haphazardly spotted is Angel's odd claim that "Stormalong" sounded great with violin accompaniment (!)

I have not compared every song! Perhaps some are original to Angel, but these issues make me inclined to throw it out as a useful reference for the 1870s.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 03:14 AM

Wow! Thanks for all that detail.

The plot continues to thicken of the GROG TIME story.

I've ordered "The Negro Singer's Own Book" on interlibrary loan, and when and if it comes I'll report back.

Now it's back to writing articles on 'jhummar' dance and Punjabi popular music.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 08:16 PM

Gibb, Frank does not give any indication of contextual notes for "Fanny" in NEGRO SINGER'S. Nor does he give any references for his statement about this being a "cargo-loading" song. My *guess* is that he may have gotten this from ART OF BALLET, which takes us back to where we were before on that. There apparently was no tune printed for "Fanny" in NEGRO SINGER'S. And I would add that as near as I can tell, there were no tunes notated for any of the 230 or so songs in Frank's book. Apparently the whalemen didn't write down music. Frank does provide tunes for each of the songs, but they come from other sources, such as later chanty collections, printed music, etc. Interestingly enough, the tune he provides for "Fanny" is "Fine Time O' Day" from Trelawney Wentworth's THE WEST INDIA SKETCH BOOK!

Smith only copied the title of "Fanny" in his journal, not the lyrics or the tune. I agree with you that this leaves open the question of whether he actually ever sang the song, or whether the song was ever actually used as a hoisting chanty on board a whaler. Once again, we don't have the info on any of this. Frank says,

    "Most of Fred Smith's known song and tune collecting was been (sic) done during his first four voyages, when he was a cabin boy, seaman, boatsteerer, and deck officer in three whaleships and before he ascended to the responsibilities and distractions of marriage and command. He kept journals of all four voyages in a single volume, which also became his reference library and study guide in matters of seamanship and celestial navigation." (p. 358).

He goes on to say,

    "It would undoubtedly delight folklorists and performers today had Fred Smith or some other whaleman seen fit to transcribe shipboard fiddle and dance tunes,note-for-note, just as he knew them - preferably with grace notes and ornamentation, the way they were played in the forecastle and aftercabin at sea. But, so far, no such transcriptions have emerged, and Smith's mere list, inscribed on a single page of his journal, is about the best and most extensive documentation of such tunes on American whaleships." (p. 358)

There is some indication that "Fanny" may have been used in minstrel performances. Frank says,

    "That the song may also have been making rounds on the music-hall circuit is suggested by an allusion on an earlier page of the same songster [NEGRO SINGER'S] (p. 196), in a section entitled "Conundrums," intended as a collection of vaudeville-like dialect quips for "Negro" musicians. It is attributed to the so-called "Black Apollo," whose real name was Charles White, "and all the Colored Savoyards at the Principal theaters in the United States":
          Why is Fanny Elssler like the Bunker Hill Monument?
          Because they are both out ob town. (Frank, p. 374)   

Out of the 230 or so songs in his book, Frank only lists seven as "deepwater chanteys" All of the rest were used for some form of entertainment on the whaling ships. Frank does seem to make the assumption that "Fanny" was used as a chanty, but gives not documentation for this assumption. See page xix in an introductory essay entitled "A Few Words about Chanteys" where he says,

    "A large number of chanteys survive; probably as many have been lost since steam propulsion supplanted them. But comparatively few original cotton-steeeving songs survive. "Fanny Elssler Leaving New Orleans" [#178] is a rare specimen of known vintage."

It is also possible that if this song was actually sung on board of the whalers, it was sung for entertainment as a music hall song. Again, all that can really be said is that the song title shows up in a whaleman's journal written sometime between 1854 and 1869. It is one of 21 titles on the list.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 06:24 PM

Excellent work, John!

GROG TIME is of special interest because it seems to be one of the earliest known "chanties."

What you've posted leads to 2 insights. Please forgive me if I am repeating what you've already said, or clarify if I get it wrong.

1. Though earlier we had THE ART OF BALLET (1915) as a source for this "Fanny" song, for the purposes of this thread we now have an earlier source for it: as per Frank, THE NEGRO SINGER'S OWN BOOK ca. 1845. That does not change our supposed date of the song being sung in 1840-42, but it does give us a more contemporary reference. I, for one, am pleased to have that.

I would *guess* that the author of ART OF BALLET got the song from NEGRO SINGER'S (or some derivation). So, the latter now becomes our primary source for this reference.

A small point: (Neither John nor I have as now seen NEGRO SINGER'S, so I am still guessing here.) It may have been that the author of ART OF BALLET reconstructed the scene of the cargo loading based on notes from an earlier book. Frank also notes cargo loading in New Orleans, so I assume (?) that in NEGRO SINGER'S there are notes on context (i.e. that ART OF BALLET could have used to sketch the scene.)

2.If the whaleman Smith copied down "Fanny" in his journal, I am not sure what implications that has that he *sang* it. Without having seen Frank's exact words, I can't form a solid opinion of how likely that was. Worldcat indicates that NEGRO SINGER'S includes no music notation (though there certainly may have been other ways to cook up the/a tune).

What stumps me most is why such an incidental, ad-libbed song would be taken and reproduced in later performance. Perhaps if a minstrel group took on the song and, after a rather artificial staged fashion, worked up a performance version of it, it would then become popular and spread itself, no longer subject to the usual "rules" of performance in the "folk" tradition.

I guess what I am voicing is my skepticism --though it may be due to lack of info-- that this "Fanny" song would have been performed by the whalemen 2 decades after it was observed on a New Orleans dock. Well, at least not in an "authentic" way. But anything is possible, I suppose.

I'll see if I can get a hold of NEGRO SINGER'S.

Gibb

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 10:34 AM

In his new book, JOLLY SAILORS BOLD (published by CAMSCO), Stuart Frank gives us a list of tunes found in a journal kept by Frederick Howland Smith, a whaleman. He first sailed in the Lydia on October 9, 1854. The tune list is found on a page of one of his journals kept during the period between 1854 and 1869. Frank says that it was "probably written down while serving as third mate of the ship Herald just after the Civil War." (p. 358).

One of the songs that shows up on this list is (#178) "Fanny Elssler Leaving New Orleans". We already know this song as a version of "Grog Time Of Day". Here is Gibb's original posting on this song with the lyrics:

Detail.CFM?messages__Message_ID=2875848

And here is a link back to one of the early accounts:

http://books.google.com/books?id=LOxCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA212&dq=%22Grog+Time+o'+day%22&hl=en&ei=OSzDTI_NJ8aAlAe457gE&sa=X&oi=book_resu

Fanny was a ballerina and toured the US in 1840-1842. Frank says that the lyrics for the song were "miraculously preserved through ephemeral publication in THE NEGRO SINGER'S OWN BOOK (circa 1845)." (p. 374) I was unable to find a full copy of this book on Google Books.

We don't know either from Frank or from Frederick Smith's journal when Smith learned this song. But we do know that sometime between 1854 and 1869, the title at least shows up on board of a whaling ship. Frank says that this list of songs were probably ones that Smith knew and sang. Frank calls this song a "cargo-loading" song, "evidently originating with African-american longshoremen in New Orleans...." (p. 374).

So, this puts this version of "Grog Time Of Day" at sea between 1854 and 1869 in a whaling context. Smith's early journals are in the Kendall Collection at the New Bedford Whaling Museum.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 10 May 10 - 08:18 PM

Thanks, Charley. Only *one* authentic unbowdlerized seafaring text of "The Fireship" has ever been printed (by Ed Cray).

If you've got another one, the world demands it!

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 May 10 - 07:47 PM

Lighter-

There were two sources for "A-Roving" in my family, my uncle Richard Dyer-Bennet and our old family friend Dennis Pulisten of Brookhaven, Long Island; both of them were born and raised in England. Their versions certainly predated the popular "Fireship" version that surfaced in about 1951. I'll have to check with my mother tomorrow and see if she can add any more notes.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 May 10 - 05:57 PM

John,
re: the second reference.

With the info available, I strongly suspect that the 2nd/Dodge reference was just copied from the 1st/Drake. The author combined the two song fragments in a work of fiction.

Even the Drake reference may be inaccurately reproducing HEAVE AWAY MY JOHNNIES.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 10 May 10 - 05:42 PM

Charley, I believe the idea that "A-Rovin'" is "one of the earliest shanties" is based entirely on Masefield's hasty conclusion, based on his observation that the theme and even some of the rhymes of Heywood's song are much the same as those of "A-Rovin'".

Otherwise, though, the songs are dissimilar.

Heywood:
http://books.google.com/books?id=BNUUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA233&lpg=PA233&dq=%22feele+man%22&source=bl&ots=TSwGSRBj2J&sig=V5Y2fvB_OAXNr8mDhdARvW5TlhY&hl=en&ei=UnvoS_XTLsSblgf-7-WlAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22feele%20man%22&f=false

(Pp. 232-33).

What text of "A-Rovin'" did your family sing in the '40s?

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 May 10 - 05:34 PM

Thanks, John. Just to add that these songs were said to be sung whilst heaving at the windlass, and that the author uses the term "shanty" -- in quotes, as if it weren't common knowledge.

I don't recognize the second one, but it looks like a "grand chorus" section to a song.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 10 May 10 - 05:33 PM

Here is another reference (snippet only) from 1875 to "Heave away, my Johnnies", from ST. NICHOLAS, VOLUME 3, by Mary Mapes Dodge.

    "Heave away, my bully boys,
    Heave away, my Johnnies;
    Heave up the anchor, boys,
    Brace round the main yard,
    Haul taut your port bow-line,
    And let the good ship fly."

Which answers the question in my previous post about that additional verse. They appear to be the same, and thus it is all one song. Is this the same chanty as "Heave away, my Johnnies"?

http://books.google.com/books?id=p3IXAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Heave+away,+my+johnnies%22&dq=%22Heave+away,+my+johnnies%22&lr=&cd=20

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 10 May 10 - 05:19 PM

Here's a reference from January, 1874, in the APPLETON'S JOURNAL, VOL. XI, in an article by Samuel A. Drake entitled "The Pepperlls of Kittery Point, Maine", to "Heave Away, My Johnnies". The verse is

   "Then heave away, my bully boys,
       Heave away, my Johnnies!"

There is also reference to this song, which is unfamiliar to me:

    "Then heave up the anchor, boys,
       Brace round the main-yard;
    Haul taut your port bow-line,
       And let the good ship fly!"

Here is the link (click on p. 66 - I had trouble with this link):

http://books.google.com/books?id=rAMZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA65&dq=The+Pepperell's+of+Kittery+Point&lr=&cd=17#v=onepage&q=The%20Pepperell'

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 May 10 - 09:12 PM

Lighter-

"There's no real evidence that "A-Rovin'" itself is unusually old..."

That's an interesting thought, given the conventional belief on the part of the folk music community. But let's re-examine the evidence.

My family certainly sang that song from 1940 on, as did our friends in Long Island.

I'll see what I can dig up.

With regard to literary references:

In the Fireside Book of Folk Songs, © 1947, it's described as "one of the oldest of the capstan shanties; originally a shore song, p. 168. Cecil Sharp collected a shore version called "We'll Go No More a-Cruising" as cited by Hugill in his discussion of the origins of the song in Shanties of the Seven Seas, p. 44. Frank Shay traces the song back to 1608 to Thomas Heywood in his play The Rape of Lucrece in An American Sailor's Treasury, © 1948, p. 86. It appears to be John Masefield who first mentions in Sailor's Garland, © 1906, p. 323, the connection with The Rape of Lucrece. Capt. Whall in Sea Songs and Shanties also mentions the connection with The Rape of Lucrece, p. © 1910, p. 61, as does Joanne Colcord in Songs of American Sailormen, © 1938, p. 28, and Frederick Pease Harlow in Chanteying aboard American Ships, © 1962, p. 51. Frank Bullen doesn't mention the song at all, nor does C. Fox Smith.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:06 PM

There's no real evidence that "A-Rovin'" itself is unusually old, even if the general idea appeared in a completely different song in 1607.

The earliest polite version seems to be in [William Allen Hayes, ed.] Selected Songs Sung at Harvard College: From 1862 to 1866. (Cambridge: pvtly. ptd., June, 1866), pp.30-31.

So it could be a clean song that got bawdified and shantyized rather than the other way around. However, Whall gives the three tamest stanzas of the anatomical version as having been part of the shanty repertoire of the 1860s.

Harlow prints part of a version he presumably learned in 1876.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 07 May 10 - 12:51 PM

I'm wondering if I've missed something. Does it strike anybody as strange that the so-called "oldest chanty of all", namely "A-Roving" hasn't showed up prior to the "SHEILA" source just posted?

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: John Minear
Date: 07 May 10 - 12:41 PM

Here is an interesting book published in 1921 about the maiden voyage of the clipper ship, "Sheila" in 1877, by the Captain, W. H. Angel, called THE CLIPPER SHIP "SHEILA" . Interspersed throughout this detailed account are sea shanties. They are not usually put into work contexts, but merely given as examples. Do they come from this voyage in 1877, or from later recollections/collections? I can't tell from scanning the text and there are no clues otherwise. I haven't had time to compare them to other collections to see if they might have come from somewhere else. Captain Angel says in his Preface, "The whole of this book has been written up by the Author from carefully kept logs, and its accuracy can be vouched for." Here is a list of the shanties and their page numbers.

"Outward Bound" 51-52
"Unmooring" 52-53
"Goodbye, Fare You Well"   55
"Across the Western Ocean"   59
"Bound for the Rio Grande"   64
"Reuben Rantzau"   73-74
"Sally Brown"   74-75
"Stormalong"   75
"Poor Old Man"   88
"Old Horse"   92-93
"So Early In the Morning"   120-121
"Johnny Boker"   120
"Paddy Doyle" 121
"So Handy, My Girls"   140-141
"Whiskey, Johnny"   144
"Poor Paddy Works On the Railway"   141-142
"Blow the Man Down"   162
"Blow Boys, Blow"   162
"A Roving"   163
"Rolling Home"   186-189
"Haul Away, Jo"   187-188
"Hilo, John Brown, Stand to Your Ground"   269-270
"One More Day, My Johnny"   277
"Farewell, Adieu"   278-279

Here is the link:

http://www.archive.org/stream/clippershipsheil00angeuoft#page/n7/mode/2up

And here is a note about all of this basically laying out the same information by Gibb on the "Rare Caribbean" thread, which I just came across:

Detail.CFM?messages__Message_ID=2608223

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 05 May 10 - 03:13 AM

Logging in this item mentioned already on the "Sydney" thread. "Marcia's Fortune," a story by Katharine B. Foot, appearing in SCRIBNER'S MONTHLY, vol 13 (April 1877).

Just then the sound of a voice singing reached her ears, and she turned her head to see a little boat, with two men in it, row past—as near in shore as was safe. One was a gunner, and the other a man she knew well,— a broken-down sailor who had once shipped " able-bodied seaman," but whose day for that had long been over. As he rowed he trolled out an old sea-song, sung by many a sailor as he weighed anchor or reefed top-sails, outward bound. It was this:

"I'm bound away to leave you;
Good-bye, my love, good-bye!
Don't let my absence grieve you;
Good-bye, my love, good-bye!"

This is the first mention of this song (?), later to be mentioned, with tune, by Alden.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 05 May 10 - 01:16 AM

The verses are interspersed with commentary about the anchor coming up.

I am not sure what to make of it, though. Because first they are puling up the slack, and able to more or less "run" around the capstan. Then the mudhook is stuck and they are trying to break it out, etc. How is it that Shenandoah is working throughout this whole process? Conventional wisdom would say that it was sung during the really hard heaving i.e. at slow speed, and that the chantey would be have to be changed to match other tempi. So...either something is happening here that is different than the conventional understanding, or the Shenandoah text is just being used, with artistic license, to unify the writing and without regard to authentic context. (??)

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 04 May 10 - 11:23 AM

And maybe half improvised. Or idiosyncratic, which is almost the same thing.