The Advent and Development of Chanties

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 09:03 PM

More descriptions from the decades before I allege the "new chanties" came in.

The first reference is not very insightful re: chanties, however, such early references to African-Americans singing during work are hard to locate, so I give it FWIW. It comes from "Abridgment of the Minutes of the Evidence Taken Before a Committee of the Whole House," including depositions from 1789. In one passage, the following bits of info are given with respect to African slaves working sugar cane fields in Grenada.

The cutting of canes is not very hard, tying them easy; the feeding the mills and sires are the most laborious. The rest of the work is very easy. On the whole, thinks the negroes are most healthy in, and like the crop best. Never knew them complain of work then. The mill- gang commonly sing all night. Certainly labour in crop is the hardest, as 1/2 their time, out of crop, is weeding. Holing is the most severe work out of crop.
...They often give holers weak grog twice a-day. Holing does not occasion sickness. Negroes seem fox'd of it, and commonly sing at at.

Of course, the assumption that the slaves were having fun --more so because they were singing-- was probably misguided. (Many years later, Frederick Douglas attempted to correct this assumption, arguing that the singing was not to express joy but rather to overcome sorrow.)

Next reference is to another rowing song reference. It is interesting for what seems to have been a transitional part-English/part-African dialect singing, and for the spread of this practice throughout the African Diaspora.

NOTES ON THE WEST INDIES... VOL. 3, by George Pinckard, pub. 1806.

The author's observations appear to be from the English West Indies Expedition of the 1790s.   He is traveling by boat down the Demerara River towards Georgetown (then known as Stabroek). Black slaves are manning the oars. Here is the passage, pg. 322:

Observing that they rowed with languor, and that we made but little progress, the cockswain was desired to exchange the helm for an oar, and to enliven his comrades with a song, encouraging them to join in chorus, and to pull together in musical time. This operated with magic effect. Every slave was inspired, and forgetting all sense of fatigue, they again pulled with unwearied vigour. We were not more pleased with the result of the expedient, than amused by ihe ready ingenuity with which our wizard cockswain composed his appropriate song, and gave it all the effect of enchantment. Resigning the helm to the weakest slave, he placed himself amidst the crew in the centre of the boat, and pulling his oar stronger than the others, he invented extempore lines for a favorite African tune, finishing each stanza with "gnyaam gnyaam row" "gnyaam gynaam row" in which all were to join by way of chorus; and we found that " gnyaam gnyaam row," never failed to give additional force to the oar—and consequent head-way to the boat.

The names of the slaves, their wives, their food, drink, and all their pleasures were introduced in song, and tuned to the pulling of the oar : likewise the names of each of the party whom they were rowing, their professions, qualities, and occupations, and their several intentions towards the crew, all made a part of this inspiring air, which, however ridiculous in the words and music—in its effect succeeded even to a wonder. The pulling of the oar, the directing of the helm, even the position of the slaves in the boat, and the compensation each might expect as the reward of his exertions were all adroitly included, and "gnyaam gnyaam row" accompanied each stretch of the oar in chorus. Led on by these persuasive themes, each seemed to emulate the exertions of the all-animating cockswain, and, throwing off the heavy marks of fatigue, they conducted us merrily and speedily to "Garden-Eden."

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Morris-ey
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 11:41 AM

Call-and-response goes back to ancient Greek theatre: it is, as a form, very old.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 11:20 AM

See the end of my last post to the "SF to Sydney" thread.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 09:34 AM

A great discovery. In form it looks indistinguishable from a halliard shanty. Such rowing songs almost certainly influenced shanty development. The transference of such songs to halliard work as needed may have been inevitable and must have happened independently a number of times.

Interesting that these early travelers found the rowing songs notable despite the unanimous comments that they were unmelodious, with improvisational and trivial lyrics.

It certainly does support the idea that call-and-response rowing songs were not native to Britain and were presumably an African holdover.

One can move plausibly from African call-and-reponse work songs to New World call-and-response rowing songs to cotton-screwers' chants to halliard shanties.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: GUEST,Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 09:12 AM

Here is another reference to add to the possible context from which these chanty forms emerged.

It is John Lambert's TRAVELS THROUGH CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES...VOL. III, published in 1810.

The event referred to, I believe, happened in 1806. The narrator is going by boat down the Savannah River.

We started from Purrysburgh about two o'clock and were rowed by four negroes, for canoes are not paddled here as in Canada. They seemed to be jolly fellows, and rowed lustily to a boat song of their own composing. The words were given out by one of them, and the rest joined chorus at the end of every line. It began in the following manner:

Chorus.

" We are going down to Georgia, boys,
CH: Aye, aye,

To see the pretty girls, boys ;
CH: Yoe, yoe.

We'll give 'em a pint of brandy, boys,
CH: Aye, aye.

And a hearty kiss besides, boys.
CH:Yoe, yoe.            
&c. &c.

The tune of this ditty was rather monotonous, but had a pleasing effect, as they kept time with it, at every stroke of their oars. The words were mere nonsense ; any thing, in fact, which came into their heads. I however remarked, that brandy was very frequently mentioned, and it was understood as a hint to the passengers to give them a dram.

Note again the incidental nature of the text. It is impossible to identify this as the progenitor to any one specific chantey, however the basic form is that of a chantey and the ad-libbed nature is also in keeping with the tradition. Again, no analogy is made to other work-song practices in the author's own tradition or aboard sailing vessels.

More boat/rowing references to come, as that seems to be where these sorts of songs were used at this point in time.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 09:14 PM

Lighter,

Our posts crossed a bit.

my placement of the dawn of the shanty around 1820 may well be a few years too early, but shanties seem to have been frequent enough on the brig Pilgrim in 1834.

I follow. My present belief is that the worksongs on the Pilgrim may not have been of the "new" (later to be called "chanties") type. So for that reason, that date is not as significant to me just yet; I am leaning towards the 1830s cotton-stowing observations as indications that things had not come together yet ship-board. But that is also why I think it may be fruitful to review and search the hell out of the 1810s-20s-30s!

If we've not any more 1810s stuff for now, we can move onto the more plentiful 1820s.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 08:59 PM

Great to have a lot of voices here.

A couple things I encourage here:

1) Though I am very often guilty of "vagueing up" my statements, particularly when I'm unsure... let's to to specify time period when we talk about things, when possible. A couple decades in either direction could make a huge difference (e.g., a couple decades ago, I wasn't using the Internet). I personally I looking for "Ground Zero" of what I think was a "new" phenomenon --post-Cheerly Man. Perhaps it was not, but still I've got to "zoom in" to see.

2) Let's use previous writers' thoughts as springboards or reference points, but not accept their assumptions. Let the evidence speak fresh.

mikesamwild--
By "Yellow Girls" do you mean the shanty AKA "Doodle Let Me Go"? That may be something to pursue.

And I am sure it was a fusion, but then again, what is not? The tunes may very well be of Irish derivation. The challenge will be distinguishing what precedents are most relevant to the historical context. The melodic influences on, say Jamaican stevedores, may have included Irish polkas, since what is "Jamaican culture" --or any culture-- but a fusion of past influences?   This influences become relevant when they suggest something of significance at that historical moment.

In my working sketch, the most important aspect of it all at this "moment" was a paradigm for singing while working. The non-Black commenters have remarked on Black work-singing as if it were a practice distinct from their own. My contention is that there was something culturally remarkable about African-American work-song practice. One aspect, for example, was the feature whereby a gang of workers might have an individual who *only* sings (and gets paid for it!). Another aspect is the specific *form* of these songs.

So I've an open bias towards looking to African-American work-singing for some answers, at this point. This does not mean I think "chanteys are African"; on the contrary, I think they are fusion. However, my hypothesis is that the "new phenomenon" of "chanties" was based in what at the time was a work-song practice of the African-American community.

Looking for antecedents --in a different world than The Complaynt of Scotland -- we have for example the account (published 1800) of Scotsman Mungo Park, who visited the area of Africa that is now Mali in the 1790s. He observed of the people there that, "They lightened their labour by songs, one of which was composed extempore, for I myself was the subject of it."

That was in Africa. Here's an observation from the New World a decade later, on the island of Martinique, in BELL'S COURT AND FASHIONABLE MAGAZINE, May 1806:

"The negroes have a different air and words for every kind of labour; sometimes they sing, and their motions, even while cultivating the ground, keep time to the music."

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 08:33 PM

Bullies, I will go out on a limb to say that no earlier commentator, including the great Hugill, Whall, Colcord, and Doerflinger, knew anything significant about shantying before the 1830s (its rise or anything else) that we have not already covered on the "SF to Sydney 1853" thread.

Even Whall and Robinson were far too young to have observed the early years of shantying-as-we-know-it. The same goes for Sharp's and Carpenter's singers. Dana might have learned something useful at second hand if he'd thought to ask.

Everything they say about it is hypothetical. (Which is not to say it is necessarily wrong.) When Doerflinger writes of a "revival of shanty-singing" after the War of 1812, he's making the unwarranted assumption that shanties (songs, not singouts, made specifically for shipboard work) were well-known before the war - a statement for which we have no evidence at all. I believe these authorities were placing too much significance on the scattered references to sailors chanting or singing in ancient and medieval times.

Patterson (who gives some unique and therefore questionable info)claimed that "Whisky, Johnny" was originally sung in Elizabethan times as "Malmsey, Johnny." He gave no evidence, and there doesn't seem to be any.

Hugill showed that while the "anatomical ptogression" of the bawdy "A-Roving" did appear as a song in Heywood's "Rape of Lucrece," Heywood's song wasn't presented as a sea song and there's no reason to assume that it was. The song itself is not identical to "A-Roving."

Gibb, my placement of the dawn of the shanty around 1820 may well be a few years too early, but shanties seem to have been frequent enough on the brig Pilgrim in 1834. With no media coverage, telephones, or downloads, it must have taken at least a few years for the practice to become a custom. My guess is that that happened during the mid to late 1820s, but admittedly that's just a guess based on insufficient evidence.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 05:21 PM

Hi,
Excellent thread. Keep it going. As soon as I get some time I'll look out my early articles on the history of shantying. You might already have them but I'll offer them anyway. I know I have a series printed in 'Mariners Mirror' somewhere, and some articles in Sea Breezes. They may or may not be useful. I often come across snippets in Victorian nautical novels, such as those by W H G Kingston. In Hull, Yorkshire where I am I've spent a lot of time in local history records
and the Maritime Museum, though have not come across any shanties or references, some bits and pieces of ballads though and things to do with whaling customs.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: mikesamwild
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 01:23 PM

When I worked in Sierra Leone in the 1960s I lived by a beach near Freetown and when the village was hauling in nets which stretched right across the bay they sang call and response'shanties'.I wish I'd had a portable tape recorder


In the 1950s I heard some railway workers near sheffield shifting steel rails and they were singing a work song . I wonder if any railway shanties got to sea?

I've lawaysthought a lot of shantioe shave tunes reminiscent of Irish Polkas from the Cork area e.g. Yellow Girls


Could it have been a fusion of cultures?

All I've seen about 'shanties' from earlier English times were songs like Cheerly Men and Off She Goes

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 01:03 PM

Thanks for that important context, TomB.

I have been finding that the statements of Hugill and Doerflinger about a "creative period" (or what I called "generative period" etc) are supported by the evidence. So I am hoping to take that as a starting point, and see how it is born out as we look at the evidence again and find more. In addition, I'd like to break down that "creative period" into chunks to really see the trajectory.

If anyone can speak specifically to the mechanics of sailing at specific moments, that contribution would be most welcome. I myself am unclear whether the shift in sailing methods -- specifically with respect to raising yards -- was a matter of new vessels or of new conditions aboard those vessels. In other words, did the packet ships in and of themselves (in their design) require/inspire a different approach to raising yards (e.g. due to size)? Or was it the conditions aboard them: smaller crews and the need for speed? And, in which years precisely did this kind of shift begin? I realize that generally it is after the War of 1812, and that 1815 is often a date used to mark the beginning of this new "Golden Age." However, specifics would be helpful. I think it is quite probable that when Robert Hay heard the Jamaican stevedores sing "Grog time of day," there was not yet any precedent aboard ship with which to compare it.

To add to the 1810s:

I forgot to note the other Jamaican stevedore song from 1811, in HAY:

Two sisters courted one man,
CH: Oh, huro, my boys
And they live in the mountains,
CH: Oh, huro boys O.

Next,

In SERVICE AFLOAT (published 1833), a British sailor describes observations from during his service during the Napoleanic Wars. So, 1815 or earlier (probably not much earlier). In Antigua, he observed a song for rowing. It was another version of "Grog time of Day," showing that that song was spread through the West Indies. His transcription gives a better idea of the complete form of this work song:

Massa lock de door, and take away de key
Hurra, my jolly boys, grog time a day
CH: Grog time a day, my boys, grog time a day,
       Hurra, my jolly boys, grog time a day

To give a sense of how that form MAY have worked, I've created this example (no melody was given, but I set it to the matching tune of "Doodle Let Me Go":

Grog Time of Day

And in the Virgin Islands, the same author observed another boatmen's song:

Jenny go to market for buy me yarrow prantin,
Heigh me know, bombye me takey.
      Chorus—Heigh me know &c.
               Heigh me know &c.

Me nebur know before Jenny bin a bad gal,
Heigh me know, bombye me takey.
    Chorus—Heigh me know, &c.
             Heigh me know &c.

Remarking on the practice of New World Blacks, the author has this commentary. Note that he describes the basic call and response format of a chantey, though he does not compare it to anything in his own tradition.

Some of their airs are exceedingly plaintive, and the manner of singing in chorus evinces no small degree of natural taste : rowing in boats or other kind of labour, when a simultaneous effort is required, they have generally a song formed of extempore verses, the improvisatore being the stroke oar, the driver, or one supereminent among the rest for the talent. He in a minor key gives out a line or two in allusion to any passing event, all the rest taking up the burthen of the song, as a chorus, in a tenor, and this produces a very pleasing effect.

Note also the emphasis on improvisation. This is important to note re: the aesthetic of this music as well as something to remember when looking for references.

It would be great to find more references to work-songs (maritime, or, of similar form) in the 1810s. With the slim evidence so far, my contention would be that work-songs of this type had not yet found their way aboard ships in the early 1810s. It doesn't say much, but is notable nonetheless, that the British Naval officer does not compare the songs to practice on his ships even by the time of publication, 1833.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: doc.tom
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 12:06 PM

Just to help set the context, may I quote from the Short, Sharp Shanties presentation that BB & I have been doing - quoting greater authorities than us!

"Hugill tells us that: 'the cessation of the American War of 1812 and of the Napoleonic Wars brought about a great impetus in merchant shipping. The early packet ships, not clippers by any means, began to come to London. They carried, in the main, emigrants to the New World'."

"The wooden walls of the Napoleonic period were now obsolete. America built faster, new design ships, and peace led to an economic boom as trade expanded world-wide. And with it the great period of the development of shantying had begun".

"According to Kinsey, the most creative period of shanty-singing was between 1820 and 1850. Doeflinger agrees, saying that: 'Most seem to have originated between about 1820 and 1860. They were the product of a revival in shantying in the peaceful decades between the war of 1812 and the Civil War which saw the swift rise of the United States to leadership in the deep-water shipping trade.'"

"But the British soon caught up, building ships with hardwoods rather than softwoods. Ships that would outlive the Yankee packets by decades! The glorious years of shantying were actually very short-lived. Cicely Fox-Smith points out that: - 'Shantying was at its best roughly between 1850 and 1875.' Hugill that: - 'It can safely be said that from 1860 onwards the production of new shanties ceased completely', and Whall says: 'Since 1872 I have not heard a Shanty or Song worth the name.'

The other Shanty Short heard in Québec was Cheer'ly Man. He told Cecil Sharp it was – "One of the first shanties ever invented - and the one I learned first." Hugill does not disagree, saying: 'Cheer'ly Man is only just faintly removed from singin'- out and is probably the most primitive, and one of the oldest shanties'."

Great thread - let's carry on!

TomB

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 11:01 AM

Excellent work, lads!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 12:42 AM

In addition to these sort of hypothetical mock-ups -- that we can test as the evidence is presented-- I have an idea how to move forward. I propose we trace the trajectory of chanties by presenting information from each decade. We could start with the 1810s (although there will be very little). Confining ourselves to that decade, we cite references to chantying generally, specific songs, etc., perhaps along with relevant details of geography, demographics, and technology of merchant sailing.

To start off the 1810s:

LANDSMAN HAY, though not published until 1953 (?), consists of the memoirs of one Robert Hay, 1789-1847. In them, Hay is supposed to have reported seeing/hearing stevedores in Jamaica in 1811. To me the reference (which I've not seen first-hand) is vague, but it seems like they are using a capstan to work cargo. Hay notes their in chanty-like song "Grog time of day," which turns out to have been a popular song associated with the Caribbean region through the early 19th century.   

Grog time of day, boys
Grog time of day,
CH: Huro, my jolly boys,
       Grog time of day

[I don't know if the chorus marking is in the original. I've taken this from Hugill. In other references to this song, this whole bit makes up the chorus]

It's possible that such a form was at that time distinct (or fairly distinct) to either the specific region or the specific ethnic group (Afro-Caribbeans). I say this because the way in which it is described, it is as if only "others" (with respect to the author) were engaged in the practice.

For some framing context, the packet ship trade began after the War of 1812 (I don't have specific dates), with the Blackball Line for example starting in 1816. The packet ships are thought (e.g. Hugill) to have necessitated a different way of handling work with smaller crews.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 11:23 PM

Ooh, this is fun! -- So, we start off, not with the nitty-gritty evidence, but with some sketches of how we might imagine it all happening. I am in total agreement with Lighter's opening statement,

The real mystery of the rise of shantying is probably the invention of the halliard shanty. Any song could be sung at the capstan, and the short-haul and bunt shanties could easily have developed from a single chanted line followed by a single syllable indicating the pull. Such "songs" would not have been noted by writers because they were just one trivial line repeated no more than once or twice.

and with some of what immediately follows. However, here is my imagined scenario of the rest.

First, I'd push it forward into at least the 1830s. There may be evidence I al overlooking that says it would have had to have been earlier. However, I want to argue that that may have been reflecting some of the earlier work-singing ("cheerly man" era, during which, yes, maybe a "Sally Brown" chant had also come into use). In my scenario, it was an *adoption* of chanties, followed of course by further development -- as opposed to an initial development. I don't think the halyard chantey was invented so much as revolutionized by a new method.

In my scene, I envision a small crew in the 1830s, one with a Black watch.   This was a high point for African-Americans in the merchant service; after the Civil War, their numbers had greatly declined. When confronted with the halyard hoisting, the hands found it only natural to raise a song. On shore, these men would never have done labour without a song, which was as much an inseparable tool of work as anything else. In light of the constant labour experience through slavery, work had developed in a way where pacing and coordinated exertion were particularly important. Men were familiar with the technique of working in gangs, as in the cotton-screwing gangs, and they knew with their familiar method they could make short work of this task.

One man, perhaps an ex-cotton hoosier "chantyman," called out, "Stowmy's gawn, that good ol' man...!" To which the others instinctively responded, "WAY storma-LONG john!," giving two coordinated pulls, steadily. The chantyman called "Oh Stowmy's gawrn, that good ol' man!" And again they pulled, "WAY hey mister STORMalong, john."

It quickly came apparent that this was a superior method for raising halyards, and the many previously created songs that fit this style of work -- whether from rowing, cotton-screwing, or loading up steamboat furnaces -- were called into play.

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 01:56 PM

I guess many sailors came from a community in which singing was much more common than today. Most people leading or driving some kind of work on board would have access to a store of songs and tunes on which to draw?

L in C

Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 01:35 PM

Thanks, Gibb. This gives me the chance to blather on.

The real mystery of the rise of shantying is probably the invention of the halliard shanty. Any song could be sung at the capstan, and the short-haul and bunt shanties could easily have developed from a single chanted line followed by a single syllable indicating the pull. Such "songs" would not have been noted by writers because they were just one trivial line repeated no more than once or twice.

As for the halliard shanty, here's my theory:

A sailing vessel large enough to require a crew of at least a dozen or so men is preparing to leave port in the year 1820 or so. One group is heaving anchor at the capstan, singing some song or another that has a chorus. The paractice of singing at the capstan is not universal but is not considered odd or peculiar either.

While one team heaves the anchor, another team is pulling on halliard to raise sail. It is usual for there to be a leader in such a group who calls out something trivial, like "One! Two! Three! Haul!", the sort of cry that no writer would consider to be of the slightest interest.

At some point, the leader of the halliard gang gets tired of "One! Two! Three! Four!" and starts to call out something arbitrary but amusing because it isn't just counting, something like, "Sally Brown, O Sally Brown O!" and everybody hauls at the end.

Because the capstan gang is singing, the leader at the halliards decides at some point to sing too. He sings something like "Sally Brown, O Sally Brown O!" to a simple rising and falling tune, almost the simplest possible. At some point, maybe that day, maybe the next time a yard or sail had to be handled, during a pause for breath between hauls, somebody else decides to chime in with a line like "Way-ay-ay-ay!" Eventually the leader develops his tune a little further and eventually a second refrain gets added.

Just why that should have happened is not clear, but if it hadn't, maybe the halliard shanty would still be thought of as a mere "chant." The four-line structure could have encouraged the development and importation of more or less stable verses as the "chant" became a real "song."

By the end of the voyage, at least one shanty has been composed. The chants of cotton-screwers may have inspired the first shanty or not: they certainly contributed to the practice.

This could easily have happened more than once in a period when more than one gang had to work at once so as to get a big clipper underway. That polygenesis would help explain the rather sudden rise of shantying and the rapid rate at which individual shanties seem to have appeared. An important contributing factor was the singing that was already semi-customary at the capstan. Thus the first halliard shanty developed in the spirit of a singing contest.

Subject: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 12:33 PM

Recently there has been some good discussion and research on the emergence of chantey (shanty) forms in the 19th century. Much of it has been going on in this thread:

From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?

Because that thread has other specific goals and because it is just getting too large due to the related but more general, theoretical discussion of chantey origins, I am initiating this one.

By focusing on some of the aspects of chanties that have not been considered much before, and by digging deep into the now-more-than-ever available references, we are getting a more detailed picture of how chantying may have emerged.

Please note that the focus here is not on the ancient origins of work-songs, shipboard or otherwise. It is not on the origins or earliest references to singing/chanting to coordinate labour at sea.

Rather, it works from a hypothesis that at some point in the first half of the 19th century, a distinguishably new paradigm for maritime work-songs appeared or was developed. This paradigm corresponded most closely to what was to be known by a new term, "chanty." Factors such as the demographics of workers on ships and in port cities, labour flow (especially with regards to geography, like rivers, plantations), and the advent of new kinds of labour or new needs in style of conducting pre-existing labour (e.g. the need to run large packet ships with square sails, quickly, but with small crews) all look to have played a role in the advent of a new-ish method of work-singing. The idea is that, though singing at work aboard ship existed prior, at this time a huge new body of repertoire, of a particular form, was introduced/developed. Moreover, while it was introduced over a certain period of time, and then developed for another, within the span of a few decades it also stabilized. After that "generative period," the notion of chanties had perhaps become very broad and mixed, and few new songs were developed of the same form. The earlier-developed chanties were perpetuated, while new songs adopted/adapted for sea labour tended to be of a different form. The latter were "chanties," to be sure, but according to an expanded concept.

I hope it is obvious that the preceding are only my views (while nonetheless piggybacking on others'). People who have been and who would like to discuss this will definitely have others; perhaps they will refute the hypothesis altogether. However, it was necessary for me to lay out some working model to begin this thread and give a sense of the focus.

One of the methodologies has been to take stock of and analyse the known references to various instances of chanties and chantying. With this detail, I feel confident that a picture will emerge that shows the changes decade by decade.

Most likely, we will have to add links to or copy-paste from some of the other postings, to this thread, in order to get discussion rolling, but I just wanted to get it started. Plus, my slow Internet/browser at work doesn't like loading up that ginormous other thread -- which is particularly inconvenient when I am trying to skylark from my paid duties for a quick peek.

Happy discussing! And please: spell "schantee" any way you like! (Sometimes I try to use all the different spellings in one post.)

Gibb