BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:24 PM

And what WAS that source, Bullshot?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:30 PM

Why, Greggie?
You want to make sure that Hamas kills him, too?


You stooges have NEVER complained when HAMAS kills Palestinian civilians- YOU seem to cheer that on.

Nor have any of you stooges YET to admit that a number of the civilian deaths YOU KEEP BLAMING on Israel are from misfired HAMAS anti-personnel rockets, EVEN WHEN THE UN, reporters, and VIDEOS show it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:43 PM

So the story WAS made up BS, then, Bullshot?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:57 PM

No, Greggie, it was reported in the world press as true. As I was not present in Gaza, I will have to take the witness as telling the truth unless there is some ulterior motive, or the witness has established a pattern of lying like you and your fellow stooges have done.

But you can just have your Hamas friends kill another dozen Palestinian civilians for you to blame on Israel: THAT should ease your mind about having to deal with facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 04:24 PM

"There is only one way to achieve sustained quiet in Israel and build a peaceful and prosperous Gaza. Hamas must be disarmed. Gaza must be demilitarized. And the international community must divorce itself from the romantic notion of Hamas as 'freedom fighters.' " -

Ambassador Ron Prosor at the Unired Nations

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 05:28 PM

it was reported in the world press as true.

Is that the same thing as "I read it on the Internet so it must be true", Bullshot?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 05:58 PM

Gaza must be demilitarized.

I'm with ya there, Boo - just so soon as Israel is demilitarised.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 06:25 PM

Oh and Greg, your attempts at establishing moral equivalences are becoming more and more pathetic....I suggest you give it a rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 06:30 PM

"just so soon as Israel is demilitarised."

I know that you would love to see that Greg because it would mean the end of Israel and the death of millions of Jews and that would have you coming in your pants. But alas, Greg, that will never happen so I suggest you keep pleasuring yourself while entertaining that fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 06:38 PM

I guess you are also ignorant of the Geneva Initiative which was an agreement for the demilitarization of Gaza (and the West Bank).It was agreed to by both Israel and the Palestinians.


Defense Characteristics of the Palestinian State

Palestine shall be a non-militarized state, with no armed forces other than
1.
a strong security force, including police forces, marine police, gendarmerie
type forces, internal security organs, intelligence organizations and border
security forces.
The Multinational Force (MF) shall protect the territorial integrity of the
2.
State of Palestine and serve as a deterrent against external attacks.
The following categories of weapons will not be allowed to be purchased,
3.
owned, used or manufactured by anyone in Palestine:
Tanks
a.
Armored vehicles other than up to 400 wheeled armored vehicles that
b.
will be used by the Palestinian Security Force (PSF) and equipped only
with the weapons allowed to be carried by the Palestinian security
force.
Rockets
c.
Guided missiles
d.
Anti-aircraft weapons
e.
Anti-ship weapons
f.
Artillery systems
g.
Mortars
h.
Mines
i.
Machine guns above 7.62 mm caliber.
j.
Laser weapons or other radiating weapons.
k.
Combat aircraft, combat helicopters and UAVs
l.
Armed naval vessels other then light boats (up to 25 tons) armed with
m.
light weapons up to 7.62 mm machine-guns.
Weapons of mass destruction (WMD).
n.
Anti-armor weapons, explosives and grenades of the PSF will be kept under
4.
MF's storage control and will only be used with the MF's permission.
Arrangements will be established by the IVG for the peaceful use of
5.
explosives in quarries. These arrangements will prevent other uses of the
explosives. The implementation of these arrangements will be monitored by
the IVG.
94
The Geneva Initiative
Any proposed changes to this Annex shall be considered by a Coordination
6.
Committee (CC) composed of the two Parties and the MF. If no agreement is
reached in the CC, the IVG may make its own recommendations.
No individuals or organizations in Palestine other than the PSF, the organs
7.
of the IVG, including the MF and the EWS, may purchase, possess, carry or
use weapons except as provided by Palestinian law.
The MF shall monitor and verify compliance with this article. The MF will
8.
keep a registry of all weapons imported to Palestine or manufactured in
Palestine. The PSF will notify the MF about any purchase, manufacture
or import of weapons in Palestine. The MF will perform scheduled and
challenge inspections in Palestinian security installations to verify that the
limitations on weaponry are maintained.
No armed militias will be allowed in Palestine. Political movements
9.
and organizations will not be allowed to purchase, posses, carry or use
weapons.
The PSF mission includes preventing destabilization and upholding the
10.
integrity of and respect for the State of Palestine and shall:
Maintain border control;
a.
Maintain law-and-order and perform police functions;
b.
Perform information gathering and security functions;
c.
Prevent any act of violence;
d.
Conduct rescue and emergency missions; and
e.
Supplement essential community services when necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 06:49 PM

Oh and Greg, your attempts at establishing moral equivalences are becoming more and more pathetic...

Amusing, Boo, especially as you, Bullshot & FKWT constantly do the same thing when you can spin it to Israel's favor.

Have you got a mirror in the house?

(See also Caliphate thread)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:13 PM

In an August 7, 2014 article titled "We Did Not Win," which was posted on the Amad.ps website, Palestinian columnist Dalia Al-'Afifi challenged Hamas' claim that it won the Gaza war. She wrote that Hamas had shown ignorance of Israel's rationale, had caused innumerable losses and damage to the Palestinians, and had erred in rejecting the Egyptian initiative. She added that the immense destruction in Gaza cannot be called a victory by any standards, and that Hamas' tactics are not likely to bring about an improvement in the Gazans' living conditions, not to mention promote the larger political goals of the Palestinian people.

Palestinian Columnist: Hamas Did Not Win The War, Only Brought Suffering Upon Gazans

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:26 AM

"They did not opt for war - Israel started this as a revenge attack for the death of four boys."

Oh but they DID opt for war Christmas, the Israeli's offered to extend the 72-hour ceasefire but Hamas decided to resume "fighting" – For "fighting" read firing off some missiles from locations deliberately surrounded by civilians in order that Hamas ensures that while they do the "fighting" it is the civilian population that do the dying – Hamas never has nor ever will give a flying f**k about the civilians who live in Gaza, they are only useful for the photo ops that bring in the aid dollars, that is why for 67 years the Arabs have kept their tame refugees in abject poverty.
Christmas could you please point out in the Hamas charter where they state that they will wipe out all Israelis, they do however make many references to wiping out all Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 03:01 AM

"Oh but they DID opt for war Christmas, the Israeli's offered to extend the 72-hour ceasefire but Hamas decided to resume "fighting"
As things stand, a cease fire without an intention to make it permanent is meaningless - Israel intends to continue this until she has beaten the Palestinians into submission.
As the Palestinian resistance fighter said                                                                                                 

                                                                  "WE ARE DYING ANYWAY, WE HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE BUT TO FIGHT"   

I can understand that.
Little Booboo puts it in a nutshell - "Come out with your hands up - for you, the war is over".
Israel keeps the weapons she has just slaughtered so many innocent people with, Gaza throws away hers.
Israel has a growing arms industry - the fact that she once tried to make Apartheid South Africa nuclear capable has yet to be commented on by the atrocity apologists.
Israel is ruled by extreimst right-wingers and is rapidly becoming a fascist state
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 03:30 AM

Taking on board all that has been said about "the end justifies the means" attitude of Hamas, the issue of Israeli expansion must also be addressed if peace is to be achieved.

The Palestinians see what they regard as their land, being swallowed up by Israeli settlers and feel completely powerless to stop it, while they are contained within what must feel like a prison.

Resentment about this is surely understandable?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:28 AM

As the Palestinian resistance fighter said                                                                                             "WE ARE DYING ANYWAY, WE HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE BUT TO FIGHT"   

No they are not.
The population grows and flourishes.
The alternative to fighting is to have peace and prosperity as well.

Israel is not expanding, and has not for 40 years.
It is still just a tiny sliver of land lost among the vast Arab nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:47 AM

"The population grows and flourishes."
The population may grow - an aspect of many poverty stricken countries - it is an obscene lie to claim that it flourishes.
Israel has reduced Palestinian territory to a ghetto, created 5 million refugees and as spent nearly a decade in trying to starve it into submission.
To describe that as "flourishing" it equivalent to passing Auschwitz off as a health camp.
You are totally and rabidly insane in your unqualified support for Israel
That's what all of this is about.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 05:00 AM

The population in Auschwitz did not grow or flourish.
The population of Gaza does, and if they stopped attacking Israel they would have wealth and prosperity too.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 05:05 AM

With no indiscriminately targeted rockets roaring off to hopefully {I presume} hit, maim and kill lots and lots of Israeli civilians and no attack tunnels being dug to carry-out raids aimed at capturing Israeli hostages and killing others, WHAT EXACTLY WOULD THIS PALESTINIAN FREEDOM FIGHTER BE DYING FROM?? - boredom.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 05:23 AM

"Israel has reduced Palestinian territory to a ghetto, created 5 million refugees and as spent nearly a decade in trying to starve it into submission." - inaccurate shit made up by Christmas

I think you will find Christmas that the refugee camps in both the West Bank and in Gaza were created and set up by the Jordanians and the Egyptians when they invaded Palestine and occupied those territories - Israel had S.F.A. to do with their creation or maintenance.

Now the really funny thing was was that it was discovered by first the Egyptians and Jordanians, then latterly by the Palestinians own "leaders" that these refugees could be used to convince useful idiots such as yourself to dole out huge sums of money that was supposed to go to "helping" these refugees. Of course hardly any of it did, but the Palestinian "leadership" did acquire enormous wealth in the process. But to get this dosh Christmas it meant that the Palestinian "leaders" had to keep these refugee camps going thereby in fact imprisoning Palestinians on Palestinian land - Now you never did answer my question about them doing that.

Had the Israelis actually seriously tried to "starve" the Palestinians into submission then they would have succeeded in that years ago. The Palestinians can get anything they want into Gaza, their preference seems to be weapons, rockets and missiles, all with the help and support of the population of Gaza it would seem. Fine live by the sword then die by it. They want war then let them pay the price for it, just don't keep wittering on and complaining about it just because in your mind the wrong people are dying.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 06:01 AM

"I think you will find Christmas that the refugee camps in both "
I think yu will find that the refuge situation was result of numerous events.
Totally beside the point - the refusal by the Israeli government to allow any to return is now the direct cause of the refugee situation.
The Palestinian refugee fighter was referring to the Palestinian people as a whole, now and in the past - your reader still not up to explain thisngs to you?
"The population in Auschwitz did not grow or flourish"
Didn't have time to do either.
Your suggestion that the Gazans are "flourishing" under Israeli dominance is as crudely inaccurate as was the propaganda used to persuade the Jews to enter the extermination camps in the first place   
Goebbels ain't dead - he's just changed his name
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 06:36 AM

Goebbels ain't dead - he's just changed his name
Jim Carroll
.,,.
No comment

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 06:47 AM

Any Jewish refugees being granted any right of return Christmas??

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 07:07 AM

Oh BTW I forgot to ask you again Christmas:

1: Why are there Palestinian refugee camps in Palestinian territory?

2: Who were those hundreds of Palestinian civilian refugees that you vehemently claim were supposedly killed in a "massacre" invented by the Palestinians and who were supposedly huckled out of Jenin by the IDF? UNRWA after all did account for all but one of the camp's residents didn't they?

Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad and the Palestinian Authority like you Christmas just love to make shit up - That is why I never believe a single word they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 07:35 AM

Jimmy and his fellow stooges have already stated that JEWS are not really human, and have NO rights. THEY are forbidden to defend themselves, and should be blamed for every dead Palestinian, even when Hamas shoots them in the back of the head, or drops anti-personnel rockets on a school.


There are different rules that JEWS are supposed to follow. Just ask Jimmy about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 07:43 AM

Keith, Teribus and bobad will really get off on this:

ORGASMIC

...though it would be fair to read this "accurate clarification" (copied from her Facebook page) first:

I am both saddened and disappointed that my statement about the tragedy of civilian casualties was totally taken out of context. What I said and stand behind is, war is hell and unfortunately civilians are victims of political conflicts. We, The United States, certainly know this as 69 years later we still feel the guilt of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The media, as usual, has decided to only quote the most out of context and inflammatory non sequitur rather than giving an accurate account of what my intentions were behind the statement. Along with every other sane person in this world, I am praying for peace. It is stupid and wrong and I am tired of bearing the brunt of attacks by people who want to sell newspapers or gain ratings by creating a scandal about me that is non-existent.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 08:10 AM

"Jimmy and his fellow stooges have already stated that JEWS are not really human,"
Where?
Are you sure you're not confusing this with your having demanded the anaihalation of all those Palestinians who won't leave?
How did your domestic abuse trial go by the way?
"No comment"
Seems to be a long-standing habit of yours
"Any Jewish refugees being granted any right of return Christmas"
Until Israel allows all sides to devise a peaceful conclusion none of this can be settled - but I have little doubt Palestine would agree to an exchange of refugees - why not put it to the Knesset?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 08:13 AM

"Keith, Teribus and bobad will really get off on this:"

WHY?

C'mon Christmas:

Any Jewish refugees being granted any right of return Christmas??

1: Why are there Palestinian refugee camps in Palestinian territory?

NB: There are 8 refugee camps in Gaza all set up between 1948 & 1949. WHile in the West Bank there are 19 of the damn things set up between 1948 & 1965

2: Who were those hundreds of Palestinian civilian refugees that you vehemently claim were supposedly killed in a "massacre" invented by the Palestinians and who were supposedly huckled out of Jenin by the IDF? UNRWA after all did account for all but one of the camp's residents didn't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 08:16 AM

Jimmy,

YOU have stated a number of lies- since I now assume ALL that you state is false, I see no reason to reply to yur accusations.

There were a GREATER number of Jewish refugees driven out of Arab lands than there were Palestinian Arabs driven out of Israel.

As in EVERY OTHER CONFLICT with population shifts, the JEWS were resettled, mostly in Israel.

The Palestinian Muslims were NOT resettled by the Arabs- they were kept in camps BY THE ARABS and not allowed to become citizens of the country they were in.

But it is you and your fellow stooges that are keeping the Palestinians in camps now, and killing them with your support of Hamas.

The blood remains on your hands, no matter what lies you make up about other people.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 09:19 AM

have already stated that JEWS are not really human, and have NO rights.

Get help, Bullshot - you're really losing what little remains of your tenuous grasp of reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 11:13 AM

Bassem Eid is a Palestinian human rights activist who lives in East Jerusalem. This is what he wrote a few hours ago. I thought this Palestinian perspective was worth sharing.


"Most of the Palestinians were against the rocket fire on Israel. They realized that the rockets would not give us anything. They called on Hamas to stop firing, knowing that it had paved the way for the death of its own people.

We knew that Hamas was digging the tunnels which would to lead to our destruction. We knew that three people live on every square meter in Gaza. And Hamas knew that an attack on Israel would lead to mass death, but it's leaders are more interested in their own victories than in the lives of their victims.

Indeed, Hamas depends on death, which gives it power and allows it to raise funds and purchase weapons. Hamas has never been interested in liberating the Palestinian people from the occupation. And Israel will never be able to destroy the infrastructures it has built. Only we, the Palestinian people, can do that.

It was the Gazan residents' responsibility to rebel against the Hamas rule. We knew what they were doing to us, but we let ourselves off easy and allowed it to happen.

Will all this death finally teach us a lesson? I hope so. The lesson is that we must get rid of Hamas and completely demilitarize Gaza. And then open the crossings.

I'm saying this as a loyal Palestinian. I'm saying this because I am concerned about my people's future."


Gazans must get rid of Hamas

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:37 PM

GROUND FORCES COMMAND BASE Israel (Reuters) - Israel fired almost five times more artillery shells into Gaza during the last month of fighting than in the 2008-2009 war there but did not use controversial white phosphorous this time around, an Israeli general said on Tuesday.

Criticized by human rights groups after the previous conflict for posing a burn risk to civilians by shelling the congested Palestinian enclave with white phosphorous to create smoke-screens, Israel said last year it was phasing out those rounds.

In the conflict with Hamas-led Palestinian guerrillas that erupted in July 8, Israeli gunners masked troop advances only with locally made M116 "gray smoke" rounds that contain no white phosphorous, artillery chief Brigadier-General Roy Riftin said.

"Smokescreens based on white phosphorous were certainly not used. We enforced this in an extreme fashion," he said in an interview at ground forces headquarters in southern Israel.

Though Israel reprimanded two senior army officers over a 2009 strike near a U.N. compound in the Gaza Strip that involved smokescreen shells, Riftin saw no legal barrier to using white phosphorous. His corps plans to stock up on U.S.-supplied M825 rounds containing the incendiary chemical in reduced form.

White phosphorous was being shunned, for now, mainly because "it photographs badly", Riftin said - a reference to the distinctive octopus-like clouds the shells formed over Gaza and ensuing showers of potentially lethal embers on civilian areas.

"When you have an alternative, you use the alternative. Had there not been an alternative, I'm convinced there would not have been an issue" with again using white phosphorous, he said.

TROOP SUPPORT

Smoke produced by M116 shells disperses more quickly than white phosphorous smoke, so more of them had to be used, Riftin said, putting the number at around half of some 34,000 artillery rounds his corps fired into the Gaza Strip since July 8, as well as hundreds of camera-guided Tammuz ground-to-ground missiles.

By contrast, only 7,000 artillery shells were fired in the 2008-2009 war. Riftin said that, in the current fighting, heavier shelling with high-explosive rounds was required to dislodge Palestinian guerrillas who, though outgunned, were more effectively dug in and killed 64 Israeli troops in urban combat.
…

Unlike during Israel's 2006 war against Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon, Riftin said his corps had not fired widely destructive cluster munitions or Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) into Gaza, given the dense Palestinian population there.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:51 PM

but did not use controversial white phosphorous this time around, an Israeli general said on Tuesday.

You expected the general to ADMIT using it, maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:56 PM

YOU expect HAMAS to admit killing Palestinian civilians, both directly, by using them as human shields, and by dropping anti-personnel warheads on them?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:00 PM

Greggie boy,

Have you stopped beating your wife, yet??



If YOU don't believe the general, please provide ANY reputable report of it's use BY ISRAEL in this battle.

Video, or physical evidence NOT Hamas claims with no evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:04 PM

"YOU have stated a number of lies"
You have deliberately lied from day one.
You claim that I and others have supported Hamas yet have refused to produce a singly example of anybody doing so.
Following my offer of a donation to your chosen charity if you did so, you dredged up that I had suggested that Israel should negotiate with terrorists - by your logic, Israel, by negotiating with the Palestinians the number of times it has, has been negotiating with terrorists, so has been "supporting Hamas".
From there your deliberate and somewhat frenetic campaign of lying has escalated.
You have debased these discussions with your hysterical campaign and turned them into slanging matches.
If you insist on keeping them up, I'm happy to retaliate in kind for as long as you do.
So please feel free to do so, I haven't got going yet.
If you lack confidence in your opinions so much that you are unable to put them forward in a reasonable and articulate manner I suggest you butt out and let those of us who are prepared to argue do so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:23 PM

Sorry, Jimmy.

I have YET to see you put forward any argument OTHER than the Israelis are to blame for Hamas killing their OWN civilian Population, and that Hamas should not stop killing Palestinian civilians unless Israel gives them whatever Hamas wants, without Hamas having to stop attacking Israel, or changing it's goal of killing Jews.

And you keep presenting Hamas claims as if they were supported by facts, even when they are proven to be lies, and you refuse to accept ANY Israeli statement a true, even when they are supported by the FACTS.


So maybe YOU and your stooges need to " butt out and let those of us who are prepared to argue do so."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 07:25 PM

News of the Middle East

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 02:36 AM

C'mon Christmas:

Any Jewish refugees being granted any right of return Christmas??

1: Why are there Palestinian refugee camps in Palestinian territory?

NB: There are 8 refugee camps in Gaza all set up between 1948 & 1949. While in the West Bank there are 19 of the damn things set up between 1948 & 1965

"The Palestinian Muslims were NOT resettled by the Arabs- they were kept in camps BY THE ARABS and not allowed to become citizens of the country they were in." - beardedbruce

Hell's teeth Christmas the Palestinians in the Refugee Camps were not even allowed to become "free" Palestinians in Gaza by the Palestinians who, even today, are holding them in those camps FFS.

2: Who were those hundreds of Palestinian civilian refugees that you vehemently claim were supposedly killed in a "massacre" invented by the Palestinians and who were supposedly huckled out of Jenin by the IDF? UNRWA after all did account for all but one of the camp's residents didn't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 04:38 AM

"Any Jewish refugees being granted any right of return Christmas"
Won't happen until Israel stops being a terrorist state and slaughtering thousands
You have been given the reason for s many having been driven from their rightful home - you are among those who say they have no right to be there.
Are you seriously claimng that the Israelis have persistently refused the right of displaced Palestinians to return
Feckin' Toy Soldier - you are a caricature.
Jim Carroll
Almost all Israeli Jews oppose a literal right of return for Palestinian refugees on the grounds that allowing such an influx of Palestinians would render Jews a minority in Israel, thus transforming Israel into an Arab-Muslim state. In addition to the right-wing and center, a majority of the Israeli left, including the far-left, opposes the right of return on these grounds. The Israeli left is generally open to compromise on the issue, and supports resolving it by means such as financial compensation, family reunification initiatives, and the admittance of a highly limited number of refugees to Israel, but is opposed to a full right of return.[104] The vast majority of Israelis believe that all or almost all of the refugees should be resettled in a Palestinian state, their countries of residence, or third-party countries. The Israeli political leadership has consistently opposed the right of return, but it has made offers of compensation, assistance in resettlement, and return for an extremely limited number of refugees based on family reunification or humanitarian considerations during peace talks.

Israel's first offer of any limited right of return came at the 1949 Lausanne Conference, when it offered to allow 100,000 refugees to return, though not necessarily to their homes, including 25,000 who had returned surreptitiously and 10,000 family-reunion cases. The proposal was conditioned on a peace treaty that would allow Israel to retain territory it had captured which had been allocated to a proposed Palestinian state, and the Arab states absorbing the remaining 550,000-650,000 refugees. The Arabs rejected the proposal on both moral and political grounds, and Israel quickly withdrew its limited offer. At the 2000 Camp David summit 52 years later, Israel offered to set up an international fund for the compensation for the property which had lost by 1948 Palestinian refugees, to which Israel would contribute. Israel offered to allow 100,000 refugees to return on the basis of humanitarian considerations or family reunification. All other refugees would be resettled in their present places of residents, the Palestinian state, or in third-party countries, with Israel contributing $30 billion to fund their resettlement. During this time, most of the original refugees had died without any compensation. Israel demanded that in exchange, Arafat forever abandon the right of return, and Arafat's refusal has been cited as one of the leading causes of the summit's failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 05:41 AM

Oh dear Christmas, oh dear!!

There will never be any right of return offered to any Jewish refugee - the matter has never been raised.

There are no recognised borders as the Arabs of Palestine and their neighbouring Arab "friends" and "allies" rejected those proposed by the UN in 1947, decided to fight in 1948, a fight they lost so they had to seek a ceasefire in 1949 - only land "stolen" then was Gaza (By Egypt) and East Jerusalem & the West Bank (By Jordan). While the newly created State of Israel lived up to the terms and conditions of the ceasefire agreement brokered by the UN the Arabs of Palestine and their neighbouring Arab "friends" and "allies" did not - and generally that has proved to have been the pattern since then until today.

Show me any Hamas/Fatah/Palestinian Authority map of the region showing the Two State solution that they say they are fighting for Christmas - I won't hold my breath, because no such animal exists, you know that and I know that - the world and its dog knows that. Unfortunately Christmas as that is the case that leaves the problem with only one solution - let them get on with it, the people of Gaza, the people of the West Bank know that if you attack Israel you in turn will be subjected to retaliation. They also know that the IDF is far, far more capable than any force they can muster - Hamas in their charter call for annihilation of the Jews (Note that Christmas - the Jews NOT the State of Israel) so if they see annihilation as the only acceptable solution then they must recognise that that very same fate might be visited on them, after all what is good for the goose is also good for the gander.

The conditions that the people of Gaza have found themselves living under have been entirely the result of choices that they have apparently freely made - they did elect Hamas and then Hamas saw fit to do away with any further elections. The difference in priorities is rather striking if you compare the approach taken in Southern Israel and in Gaza regarding threat to civilian populations:

Israel: Spend money in first creating an effective warning system and building shelters for the population, then link it to an anti-missile defence system.

Gaza : Spend money, time effort and lives smuggling weapons, explosives, rockets and missiles into what must number as being the most densely populated places in the region. Use cement supposedly provided to improve the lot of the civilian population to build underground command centres and refuges for the Hamas "leadership" and to construct "attack" tunnels leading into Israel. Hamas then mount indiscriminate rocket and mortar attacks on the population of Southern Israel using the population of Gaza as "human shields" knowing that they have no protection from the retaliation that you know will come.

You tell me Christmas which set of "leaders" values the lives of the populations they are responsible for protecting more? Israeli, or Hamas - Perhaps those casualty figures you keep wittering on about actually tell you?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 06:22 AM

" the matter has never been raised."
The matter is one of the fundamental points of all peace talks and has been raised time after time
Each time, the Israelis have offered to allow a few to return if they agree to give up the right to their old homes and settle on whichever toxic rubbish dump Israel chooses to dump them on
They also have to sign an agreement on behalf of all refugees to relinquish any claim on their homeland.
Each time the offer has been made it has been a subject of non-negotiation and immediately withdrawn.
Maps be fucked - these are lands settled for millenia by all peoples concerned.
"The conditions that the people of Gaza have found themselves living under have been entirely the result of choices"
The conditions are those made out of necessity by impoverished people with no choice whatever - for christ sake, there is enough film footage of the overcrowded nature of these camps with their virtually non-existent facilities and the constant stream of new refugees arriving daily, having been displaced by encroaching settlements.
The Bedoins have physically been forced en-masse from their villages by arial-delivered chemical sprays and high powered water cannon - to make room for settlers.
I must have overlooked your hand-painted version the last time I read Th Brothers Grimm collection.
The Gazan weapons are to prevent this from happening as much as possible
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 08:18 AM

Many journalists working in Gaza during Operation Protective Edge said they were free to broadcast or publish true reports, only after leaving the reach of Hamas. Away from the front, Italian journalist Gabriele Barbati said he was able to report that Hamas, not Israel, was responsible for shelling in Shati, while two tweets from correspondents for The Wall Street Journal that highlighted Hamas operating its headquarters from the Al Shifa Hospital and showing how Hamas rockets, not Israel's likely hit the hospital, were quickly deleted.

The Algemeiner

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 08:43 AM

"The matter is one of the fundamental points of all peace talks and has been raised time after time"

The right of return of Jewish refugees has never been raised by anyone.

"Maps be fucked" -says Christmas So you freely acknowledge that there is no Two State "solution"

As for this one from Christmas - "- these are lands settled for millenia by all peoples concerned." - Yet it is only the Jews of Palestine that can be openly threatened with annihilation, it is only the Jews of Palestine that have to move to satisfy the whims of complete and utter prats such as Christmas, Greg F, Steve [Qur'an] Shaw.

C'mon Christmas who was it shut all those refugees up in those refugee camps in Gaza, in the West Bank, in Syria, in Lebanon, in Jordan between 1948 and 1965? Wasn't the Israelis was it? You say that there is a "constant stream of new refugees arriving daily, having been displaced by encroaching settlements thousands of new refugees" - Well you and I know that that is one of your "Fairy Tales" Christmas - I mean where do they put them all as there have, after all, been no new or additional refugee camps created since 1965.

"Your" and the Hamas/Fatah/Palestinian Authority's pet refugees have deliberately been kept in conditions of hopeless, abject poverty by their Arab masters since 1948 because they serve a purpose - they prod the consciences of the richer non-front line Arab nations, they are trotted out to con developed "western" nations into supplying aid, that never seems to do those refugees any good, but the so called "Leaders" of these hapless refugees always seem to have extremely healthy bank balances.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:28 AM

Many journalists

How many? Out of a total number of what?

two tweets

Out of how many, total? And what did all the rest of the twats - oh excuse me - TWEETS have to say?

Lets put this int perspective, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:49 AM

Hamas' bloodlust not yet sated:

Even as Israeli representatives are in Cairo to discuss a truce with
Hamas on Tuesday, the terrorist group is taking pains to clarify it has no intentions of desisting from trying to wipe Israel off the map.

Hamas's "military wing," the Al-Qassam Brigades, released a statement presenting its position on the ongoing talks in Egypt.

"The warriors in Gaza are waiting with Allah's help to renew the fighting, or to return to planning the next campaign. There's no escape. Either jihad or planning (for the next jihad)," declared the statement.

The remarks leave no doubts that even in the case of a truce, from Hamas's perspective the lull in fighting would only be an opportunity to rearm for the next terror war on the Jewish state. This facet is particularly concerning in light of reports of Israel agreeing to finance Hamas's officials in Gaza as part of an agreement.

Hamas Clarifies Truce Would Only Be to Plan Next War

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 11:23 AM

And from Boo: silence.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 12:47 PM

Greg May I answer how many out of how many?
You would have to conduct a survey of journalists in Gaza to find out.
The author is aware of "many" and gives examples.
That is enough to show that it is a genuine issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 01:10 PM

Don't even bother Keith, the point is moot, he's just trying to deflect from the issue that reporters were not free to report on Hamas. It's obfuscation and not worthy of a response.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 01:18 PM

The author is aware of "many" and gives examples.
That is enough to show that it is a genuine issue.

Bullshit, FKWT.