BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 08:36 AM

"Stupidity is often fatal."
Don't confuse ignorance with stupidity Richard - not the same thing.
The people being fed this stuff were in a desperate condition; some of them living in holes in the ground, others crammed into overcrowded workhouses.
They were reported to have resorted to eating grass from the side of the road because there was nothing else available.
The horrific case I put up earlier bears repeating, to show just how desperate some of them were.   
Jim Carroll

"From the 'Cork Examiner' of March 19th, 1847 reporting on a court case in which a man had been charged with stealing food.
He said he was driven to it by what had happened to his wife. The court was told: The starving woman lay in her hovel next to her dead three year old son, waiting for her husband to return from begging food. When night fell and his failure to return led her to imagine him dead in a ditch, she lay there in the faint fire's dying embers, caressing with her eyes her dead son's face and his tiny fists.
With death searching her and now with her own fists clenched, she made one last effort to remain alive. Crawling as far away from her son's face as she could, as if to preserve his personality or at least her memory of it, she came to his bare feet and proceeded to eat them.
When her husband returned and saw what had happened, he buried the child, went out, and was caught trying to steal food. At his trial the magistrate from his immediate district intervened on his behalf, citing the wife's act as a circumstance deserving special consideration. The baby's body was exhumed, the flesh of both its feet and legs found to have been gnawed to the bone, and the husband released and allowed to return to his wife."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:48 PM

Stupidity is often fatal.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:10 PM

Not joining in this, but I thought I'd better qualify something I said; realised it sounded ambiguous.

I didn't intend to mean that "Peel's Brimstone", the corn supplied by the British Government which was so fatal to starving Irish people was *deliberately* meant to have ill effects. I think its suppliers thought they were buying nutritious, cheap, good food, and didn't realise that it needed extra processing to be edible.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 09:08 AM

Go away
You have been asked to qualify your arguments by addressing the facts - you refuse
Why oh why do you insist on lying abbout statements you have posted
Are you insane?
Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, KEEPING HATE ALIVE
Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree.
Massachusetts?
jIM cARROLL

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 08:01 AM

You described the Irish as hating Britain

I never have because it is not true.


Kinealy says that the revisionists, who "deny culpability" and "rehabilitate the government," are the dominant view.
That contradicts all the stuff you just posted Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:56 AM

"The Irish do not hate the English or anyone else, but for most of the 20th Century kids were taught that Britain was to blame."
You described the Irish as hating Britain and you have always described those who criticise British policy as "ant-British", even to the extent of saying that because I have chosen to live in Ireland I have no right to comment on what happens in Britain - do not compound all the lies yo have tld with yet another.
"deny culpability" and "rehabilitate the government," are the dominant view"
She says no such thing as you would find out if you read what she has written
No-one has disputed Britain's culpability - you have not even addressed it other than to deny it
Go away you nasty little man
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:15 AM

The Irish do not hate the English or anyone else, but for most of the 20th Century kids were taught that Britain was to blame.
They were also taught that Catholicism is the one true faith.
Luckily they also learned to think for themselves.

Kinealy says that the revisionists, who "deny culpability" and "rehabilitate the government," are the dominant view.
That contradicts all the stuff you just posted Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:13 AM

The most distasteful thing about all this is that you and your mates are well aware of Britain's culpability in the Famine, otherwise you would have taken the causes I have listed, disproved them and thrown them out of the window, vindicating your arguments and humiliating me and those who disagree with you
You have ignored them totally, Termite has blustered his way past them Brucie has denied their existence - and pdq - "you cannot be serious".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:01 AM

"Up until the late 60s, Irish school text books taught kids that England was to blame"
That would be nearly half a century ago then.
Historians still say England is to blame - up to the late sixties history books were suggesting that British policy may have been deliberate.
In the mid-sixties, educationalists abandoned the practice of apportioning blame and concentrated on the effects of the Famine - that remains the case and that is what Kinealy and her colleagues are now returning to the question of whether British action was deliberate or just bloody minded stupidity coupled with racist inspired neglect
The question that British policy was to blame has never been disputed.
The term 'Irish Holocaust' and the comparison to the Jewish annihilation was minted by an English Historian, the evidence of the lethal consequences of the Famine was first brought to the public notice by English Historian Mrs Cecil Woodham Smith and repeated by the English Expert on Irish History, Robert Kee; this account has been reiterated by both English and Irish historians ever since.
Britain has always been know to have been guilt as charged for the results of the Famine.
Whether it was pre-meditated murder or just manslaughter is what is under dispute - nothing else.
One of the historians in the forefront of of that dispute is Christine Kinealy who, as you rightly say, "knows more than all of us"" - she has come to the conclusion that it probably was deliberate.
It remains to be seen whether she was right.
One of the points you have totally ignored in your "brainwashing to hate" racist slur, is that, if there is evidence that the Irish hate the English, if has nothing to do with the Famine, but rather, what has happened between the two countries since Independence - we'll see some more of that as 'The Glorious Twelfth' gets under way and the bowler-hatted "No Surrender" merchants take to the streets to declare their superiority.
There is no evidence of Anti-English feeling in Ireland today among the general population of "hate-filled and brainwashed" morons, as you choose to present them - if there is - where is it?
Are you sure you didn't contribute to 'Punch Magazine' in a previous existence.
You are a xenophobic hate-filled moron
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:49 AM

This passage makes it clear that Irish education moved away from the nationalist teaching of history to a position of discussing the famine in terms of blame in the 1940s

Try again Jim.
It was the "nationalist teaching" that presented it in terms of blame.

The historians moved away from that after about 1930, and the textbooks finally caught up after late 60s.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:30 AM

Up until the late 60s, Irish school text books taught kids that England was to blame.
Later text books are more honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 05:58 AM

I suggest you Google Anti British sentiment in Ireland if you want to show us that the Irish hate the British
Mine keeps coming up with the opposite - masses and masses of Anti Irish links
Maybe I need an engineer to come in and look at my computer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 05:55 AM

I find that extraordinarily charitable to the Roman Catholic church.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 05:43 AM

From your link
It is exactly new revisionism, as outlined below, that modern historians like Kinealy are seeking to set right.
This passage makes it clear that Irish education moved away from the nationalist teaching of history to a position of discussing the famine in terms of blame in the 1940s that is exactly what I said earlier and what Kinealy wrote in the book I have recently read.
She and her colleagues have now returned to the question of the cause of the consequences of the famine - she believes that it is Britain's fault and possibly deliberate; others accept it is Britain's fault, but question whether it is policy or just incompetence and malicious neglect
What is covered in your link is exactly in line with what I posted in my account of what is being taught in Irish schools and has been for the last half century
The only hatred comes from you - and that now includes a hatred for the British by blaming the British government for tolerating racism like yours
Read your own links before you post them - you ignorant pratt
Jim Carroll

Developing since the 1940s, this 'revisionist' historiography exposed various popular accounts of key historical events as nationalist myths and endorsed the view that Irish history should be seen as 'a complex and ambivalent process rather than a morality tale'.   Also the teaching of national history changed as contacts with colleagues and professionals abroad, enabled by the formation of the Irish branch of the European Association of Teachers in 1961, brought Irish history teachers in touch with new views on pedagogical objectives and historical narratives. According to Magee, these international exchanges played a key role in raising the awareness among Irish history teachers that other countries had progressed further in removing from school textbooks 'the distorted judgements and prejudices engendered by recent rivalries'. The changes in history education mirrored wider transformations in education and society. Motivated by a desire to leave the era of economic stagnation and excessive emigration decidedly behind and meet the needs of Ireland's industrialising economy, the Fianna Fail governments of the 1960s introduced sweeping educational reforms geared towards greater provision of education at all levels, more equality of opportunity, more emphasis on vocational, technical and scientific training, and the establishment of a comprehensive curriculum.
Educational reform also had a profound effect on history education and textbooks. A study group set up by the Department of Education on the teaching of history in schools issued a report which marked a turning point in Irish education. The report highlighted the need for new textbooks 'attractively produced and illustrated, and free from the chauvinism and the selective treatment that had disfigured school histories from the establishment of the Irish Free State'.   More generally, the reforms heralded a sharp increase of state and parental involvement in education at the expense of the hitherto almighty Catholic Church. The church itself changed as well, moving from a conservative bastion strictly following the orders from the Vatican to an institution primarily concerned with the spiritual and psychological well-being of its adherents. Hence, Ireland was far from immune to the social processes and movements that would so profoundly change the character of Western societies from the end of the 1960s onwards.
The new history textbooks of the late 1960s and early 1970s all echo the changes called for by the report. They differ from the older textbooks in a number of ways. The most notable difference concerns the initial response of the British government. In contrast to their predecessors, the new books state that the British government, headed by prime minister Sir Robert Peel in 1845, did take immediate action after the outbreak of the disease: 'Peel's relief measures (…) were prompt, skilful, and on the whole successful'. Yet, a new Whig government, the books argue, exchanged the interventionist course for a hands-off policy, in line with the prevailing laissez faire ideology. The state refrained from the purchase and distribution of food, leaving these activities entirely to private enterprise and charity. It would only engage in public works, which were intended to give the poor and hungry an opportunity to work for the state and earn a modest salary. This new policy, the books explain, allowed matters to grow from bad to worse so that in the end the government 'admitted defeat' by abandoning public works and extending direct relief. Thus, much more so than their precursors, the books draw attention to the political processes operating in the imperial centre and try to make it understandable why the British government, the main 'other' from an Irish perspective, pursued the policies it did.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 05:14 AM

"The end of the 1960s witnessed a major change in history education as a new generation of textbooks appeared which incorporated the tenets of a critical academic historiography. Developing since the 1940s, this 'revisionist' historiography exposed various popular accounts of key historical events as nationalist myths and endorsed the view that Irish history should be seen as 'a complex and ambivalent process rather than a morality tale'.   "

"Pursuing this argument, the new books contend that the famine was not caused by a single factor but by many. Contrary to the old books, they highlight the role of domestic circumstances. Thus, the habit of early marriage, the creation of large families, the subdivision of holdings into ever smaller patches of land and the lack of opportunities outside agriculture are all seen as having contributed to a growing population pressure on the land and to an excessive reliance on the potato as the primary food crop, thus preparing the way for the devastating impact of the potato blight in 1845 and the years thereafter. Perhaps because of the importance they attach to other than political factors, the books recoil from claiming that the famine would not have occurred if Ireland had had its own government.
        In another and related contrast to their forerunners, the new books devote much more attention to the social, economic and cultural characteristics of Irish society during the famine, enabling the student to have a more inside look at the events of the time. "

germjanmaat.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/historyofeducation.doc‎

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 05:06 AM

"Yet, the book also concedes 'no native government could have prevented famine from following a loss of the potato crop'.   Another noteworthy detail is the identification of the British government as 'the other': both Gwynn and Hayden and Moonan refer to it as the 'English' government led by the 'English' prime minister Lord John Russell. "

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 05:03 AM

" However, the lack of state involvement did not mean that (Irish) textbooks presented accounts of history that were at odds with official views. To the contrary, according to Foster, the first generation of textbooks dutifully 'memorialized' the institutionalized view of history, a generation moreover that would continue to be used for the next forty years.         
Comparing these books on their representation of the Irish Famine it can first of all be noted that all five are highly critical of the response of the British government to the failure of the 1845 potato crop. "

From a study of textbooks.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 03:59 PM

I told you on the other thread I had found what you pasted.
It is not a school text book.
It tells us nothing about how the famine has been taught for the last 70 years.
Up until the late 60s, Irish school text books taught kids that England was to blame.
Later text books are more honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 02:47 PM

Wot - no Keith!!!
Must have got a nasty dose of Beri-beri whan I gave him something to read on the other thread
Great day - calloo- callay
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 01:27 PM

That is why I coined the term Irish Bad Years....

No, PeeDee, you coined the term either out of ignorance, flippancy, disregard of the facts, or as a transparent attempt to exonerate the British government from any responsibility whatsoever.

But keep at it- its quite amusing, compared to T-Bird, BB & FWK's nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 01:21 PM

"Who says it is Jim?"
I do - do you have another?
It's scanned down from an Irish school text book which belonged to a family member.
If you care to search out Do Chara.com a guide for young visitors to Irelan - I think you'll find it is repeated there, more or less word for word.
Are you suggesting I made it up?
"Now you can go back to posting Blood Libel against the Brits. The moderators seen to like that."
The pills, Pee, the pills; you haven't been taking them again , have you?
Shit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 12:53 PM

In my last post,

"With a life expectancy of just 40 years, a populaion will lose about 205,000 people per from various causes." should read

"With a life expectancy of just 40 years, a population of 8.2 million, as Ireland had in 1844 will lose about 205,000 people per year from various causes.


Now you can go back to posting Blood Libel against the Brits. The moderators seen to like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 12:35 PM

The account I have just put up is exactly the version of history that was being taught in schools right to the present day

Who says it is Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 12:29 PM

"Up until the late 60s, Irish school text books taught kids that England was to blame."
The account I have just put up is exactly the version of history that was being taught in schools right to the present day and is exactly what has been established as the facts fully accepted by all historians up to the 150th anniversary, when they began discussion whether culpability was deliberate or not.
If you have an alternative "more honest" account, please give it, otherwise, you are shown up as a racist liar - again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 12:17 PM

With a life expectancy of just 40 years, a populaion will lose about 205,000 people per from various causes.

Deaths in Ireland in 1847 were 242,000. About 37,000 more than would be expected.

Official records show about 6000 died that year of starvation, which leaves about 31,000 who died from epidemic diseases. Typhus, cholera and relapsing fever are to blame for most of the daths, not the Brits.

Again, about 80% of the excess deaths do to epidemic diseases, 20% from the food shortage.

That is why I coined the term Irish Bad Years to replace the various ones blaming Brits or potato blight.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 12:01 PM

Up until the late 60s, Irish school text books taught kids that England was to blame.
Later text books are more honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:50 AM

Ony more try Keith
What exactly do you dispute of what was/is being taught in Irish schools?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:48 AM

PeeDee, what drugs are you on?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:37 AM

"So the "brainwashing" only lasted from 1922 to 1995."
So you are claiming that that summary is 'Republican lies"
Now there's something nobody has thought of so far.
Which bit exactly do you dispute?
"Perhaps Christmas Cactus will post some of the lovely material that Muslim schools teach their little darlings"
Why - what has it got to do wit the Potato Famine
"Too bad Mudcat's moderation staff allows this type of carefully-contrived hatemongering "
Totally ree - after all, how would you like to have your family called "brainwashed morons" or have your people described as "implanted" potential Pedophiles"
" does the same thing to Jews"
Oh Christ - not another anti-Semite blaming the Jews for Israeli crimes
This is getting more and more like a Nuremberg Rally
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM

This is a summary of what was being taught in Irish schools regarding the Famine up to relatively recently - as far as I know, this is still what is being taught.


That is the problem.

Perhaps Christmas Cactus will post some of the lovely material that Muslim schools teach their little darlings. You know, about how Jews are to blame for all death and disease, poverty and unhappiness in a the whole Arab World.

Too bad Mudcat's moderation staff allows this type of carefully-contrived hatemongering to be posted at allm much less as fact.

Oh, and Christmas Cactus does the same thing to Jews on every thread the even mentions Islam, Arabs or Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:03 AM

So the "brainwashing" only lasted from 1922 to 1995.
That is encouraging, as is your concession that "the jury is still out" on culpability.
Yes it is.
It is disputed as I have been trying get through to you for months.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 10:53 AM

Keith's "brainwashing"
This is a summary of what was being taught in Irish schools regarding the Famine up to relatively recently - as far as I know, this is still what is being taught.
Since 1995, the 150th anniversary of the outbreak of the blight, a great deal of discussion has taken place on whether British culpability was deliberate or just vindictive neglect.
The jury is still out on that one.
Big post again, I'm afraid lads
Jim Carroll

THE IRISH POTATO FAMINE 1846-1850
PRELUDE TO FAMINE
While the potato had seemed like the answer to a growing population's prayers when it first arrived in Ireland, by the early 1800′s warnings began to grow about over reliance on a single source of food. A significant proportion of the Irish population ate little other than potatoes, lived in close to total poverty and were rarely far from hunger.
A typical tenant farmer had barely half an acre on which to grow all the food for a family. Potatoes were the only viable option with such a small landholding. At least those with tenancies, small as they were, had the certainty of shelter and some food. Homelessness was common, many people lived in makeshift mud cabins or slept outdoors in ditches. Work was in short supply forcing labourers to travel the country in search of employment, surviving on what they could forage, get by way of charity or steal.
Life expectancy was short, just 40 years for men, and families were large, with many mouths to feed. The gap between living and dying, even in a good year, was perilously narrow.
In 1836 a report from the Parliamentary Select Committee on the Irish Poor concluded that more than 2.5 million Irish people, more than a quarter of the population, lived in such poverty as to need some kind of welfare scheme. Poor law unions were established to provide work houses where the most impoverished would be fed but these were wholly inadequate even before famine stuck and completely overwhelmed when it did.
THE POTATO CROP FAILS
The disaster began in earnest in 1845 when the potato crop was destroyed by infestation with the fungal disease Phytophthora Infestans, better known as Potato Blight.
This devastating disease rotted the potatoes in the ground, rendering entire crops inedible and obliterating the primary food source for millions of people.
William Trench, a Co Cork land agent wrote:
"The leaves of the potatoes on many fields I passed were quite withered, and a strange stench, such as I had never smelt before, but which became a well-known feature in "the blight" for years after, filled the atmosphere adjoining each field of potatoes. The crop of all crops, on which they depended for food, had suddenly melted away"
There was effectively no potato crop in 1845 and 1846 and although there was little blight in 1847 there had been too few potatoes planted for the harvest to be of any use. Crops failed again in 1848.
There was now nothing for the poor to eat. Although many had enough land to grow crops other than potatoes, they were caught in an impossible bind – they had to sell these crops to pay rent or face eviction.
WIDESPREAD EVICTION & DESTITUTION
While some landlords allowed their tenants to retain grain crops for food and reduced their tenants' rents or even waived them, others were remorseless.
This bailiff's remark as quoted in the Freeman's Journal in April 1846 was typical:
"What the devil do we care about you or your black potatoes? It was not us that made them black. You will get two days to pay the rent, and if you don't you know the consequences."
Other landlords could have done little even if they had wished to, as they too lost everything. Their tenants could neither pay rent nor work, thus the output of their land plummeted and their income dried up. Many were forced to sell their land for what little money they could get and leave the country.
More than a quarter of a million labourers and tenant farmers were evicted between 1845 and 1854 and more than that number simply walked away from their homes, never to return, rather than face certain starvation. Thousands of evicted families roamed the country in search of food.
William Bennett, a member of the Society of Friends, visited Co Mayo in 1847 and sent a report of what he found:
"We entered a cabin. Stretched in one dark corner, scarcely visible from the smoke and rags that covered them, were three children huddled together, lying there because they were too weak to rise, pale and ghastly; their little limbs, on removing a portion of the filthy covering, perfectly emaciated, eyes sunk, voice gone, and evidently in the last stage of actual starvation.
We entered upwards of fifty of these tenements. The scene was invariably the same."
More than 1 million people died of starvation or disease – to put that in context, an equivalent loss in the US today be almost 40 million people. More than 2 million others emigrated over a six year period, whole families, even whole villages, left en masse.
Those who could afford to leave were considered to be the lucky ones, though they may not have felt particularly fortunate – many of them travelled on dangerous and overcrowded ships on which considerable numbers died.
"STARVING IN THE MIDST OF PLENTY"
The famine was not really a famine at all.
Ireland, then as now, was a country capable of producing large quantities of food, and continued to do so throughout the famine years.
Only a single crop, the potato, failed. No other crops were affected and there were oats and barley being produced in Ireland throughout these years. But these were considered 'cash crops', produced for export and owned not by those who worked in the fields but by large landowners. Food exports continued virtually unabated even as people starved.
William Smith-O'Brien, a wealthy land owner from Dromoland Castle who was sympathetic to the plight of the poor, observed in 1846:
"The circumstances which appeared most aggravating was that the people were starving in the midst of plenty, and that every tide carried from the Irish ports corn sufficient for the maintenance of thousands of the Irish people."
In Cork in 1846, a coastguard officer, Robert Mann, travelled the county and reported seeing innumerable starving and desperate people and then…:
"We were literally stopped by carts laden with grain, butter, bacon, etc. being taken to the vessels loading from the quay. It was a strange anomaly"
OFFICIAL FAMINE RELIEF & AID
Instead of retaining crops and other food which was already being produced in Ireland, cheaper Indian corn was imported in various efforts at relief.
This corn was regarded with suspicion by the Irish who looked on it as animal feed and had no idea how to prepare and cook it properly. Being accustomed to a diet of potatoes, they had great difficulty digesting this tough grain. Many who tried it suffered terrible pain – some even died – though eventually they learned how it should be prepared in order to be more digestible.
However official attempts to provide relief, in the form of imported corn or in any other form, were sporadic, short lived and inadequate for the numbers who were in need. Of the effective help that was provided during the famine little came from the government in London.
Although some efforts were made in 1945 by the English prime minister Robert Peel to both reduce exports of grain and increase imports of cheaper American corn, these were not continued by Lord John Russell, who succeeded him in 1846.
Russell was an enthusiastic supporter of the prevailing economic doctrine, that of 'laissez-faire' – the belief that government must not interfere in the economy. Charles Trevelyn, who was secretary of the Treasury in England and had responsibility for famine relief, had an even less sympathetic attitude to the starving Irish:
"The only way to prevent the people from becoming habitually dependent on Government is to bring the food depots to a close. The uncertainty about the new crop only makes this more necessary".
There were some government relief efforts: workhouses were given additional resources, though nothing approaching what they needed.
Work schemes were established, designed to give employment to the poor and thus enable them to buy food. The work schemes in particular were singularly unsuccessful for the most part - payments made were small, food prices rising rapidly (when any was available), and those who most needed help were far too weak from lack of food to avail of any work.
Some started work but died before the week was over and they could collect their pay.
CHARITABLE ORGANISATIONS & FAMINE AID
In spite of the inaction of their government there were some efforts by private charities and religious organisations in England to send help or provide food.
Famine Relief Committees were also set up throughout America, raising large amounts of money and sending food on 'relief ships' which made the return journey with passengers on board, allowing people who could not otherwise afford the passage to America to emigrate.
The Society of Friends
The people who provided the most effective help to the Irish were members of the Society of Friends, or Quakers, from America who provided food, mostly American flour, rice, biscuits and Indian meal.
They also provided funds to assist farmers to replant their fields and to support fishermen in coastal towns, measures which not only provided additional food but helped many people to get back on their feet as things improved after the famine. In all they gave approximately £200,000 for relief in Ireland, the equivalent of more than £30 million in today's terms.
Their efforts were widely supported in America:
"The railroads carried, free of charge, all packages marked 'Ireland'. Public carriers undertook the gratuitous delivery of any package intended for the relief of the destitute Irish. Ships of war approached our shores, eagerly seeking not to destroy life but to preserve it, their guns being taken out in order to afford more room for stowage."
The Quakers efforts are well remembered and they are held still in high regard in Ireland, although their numbers are few. It is not uncommon to hear someone remark of them 'They fed us during the famine'.
Soup Kitchens
The most successful relief measure of all was soup kitchens, which were originally set up by the Quakers and later also funded by various charitable organisations in England and America. However even they were too few to meet the incessant and ever increasing demand.
Of one Cork soup kitchen, the London Illustrated News reported:
"The average number supplied every day at this establishment for the past week has been 1300 and many hundreds more apply, whom it is impossible at present to accommodate."
"Soupers"
Some of the Protestant charities running soup kitchens demanded that people convert from Catholicism before receiving help. For many of the Irish, clinging to their faith when all else seemed lost, this was a dreadful proposition. The connection between saving lives and proselytising led to much bitterness and was denounced by many Anglicans. Those who did convert, probably without much conviction, were derided and referred to as 'soupers'.
The term persisted long after the famine and for generations whole families would be known in a locality as 'soupers'. It is still occasionally used to describe a person who 'sells out' on their beliefs and is considered a gross insult.
The Choctaw Donation
A well remembered donation to famine relief was that made by the Choctaw tribe of American Indians who in 1847 sent a donation of $710, the equivalent of more than $100,000 today. They had a special affinity with the hungry and those who had lost their homes, since it was only 16 years since their tribe had been made homeless and walked the "Trail of Tears" from Oklahoma to Mississippi, along which many of them died.
This extraordinary gift from a people who were themselves impoverished has never been forgotten. In 1997, the 150th anniversary of that generous gesture, a group of Irish people walked alongside members of the Choktaw Nation along the 500 mile Trail of Tears in reverse, back to the Choctaw homeland. In so doing they raised together over $100,000 which was donated to Famine relief in Somalia.
BLACK '47
In spite of the various relief efforts, the numbers of dead and the numbers leaving continued to rise throughout 1847 (a year which is still referred to as 'black '47′) and in subsequent years up to 1856.
People living in the cities of Dublin, Cork and Belfast and in the larger towns were less dependent than the rural population on the potato and had been relatively unaffected by events prior to 1847. But as the famine wore on towns became crowded with those fleeing the countryside and in search of food. They gathered in tenement areas but without money or work they found little refuge or escape and were ill equipped for life in a town.
They brought with them diseases, mainly Typhus, Dysentery and Cholera, which few, in their weakened state, could withstand. Disease rather than hunger now became the primary killer, and disease took its toll in urban as well as rural areas. Even the wealthy were vulnerable to infection and many people died without ever knowing lack of food.
THE FAMINE COMES TO AN END
By 1852 the famine had largely come to an end other than in a few isolated areas. This was not due to any massive relief effort – it was partly because the potato crop recovered but mainly it was because a huge proportion of the population had by then either died or left.
During the years of the famine, between 1841 and 1851 the Irish population fell from over 8 million to about 6.5 million, and with mass emigration continuing in the subsequent decades it was down to 4.5 million by the turn of the century.
This rapid and dramatic loss of population is still taking its toll right up to the present time and Ireland is certainly the only country in Europe and possibly the only one in the world with a smaller population today than it had in 1840. It set in train a pattern of emigration that persists to this day and is the reason why there are vastly more people of Irish decent living outside Ireland that in it.
Not everyone viewed the loss of so many lives as a calamity, as the preface to the Irish Census of 1851 makes clear:
"…we feel it will be gratifying to your Excellency to find that the population has been diminished in so remarkable a manner by famine, disease and emigration between 1841 and 1851, and has been since decreasing, the results of the Irish census of 1851 are, on the whole, satisfactory, demonstrating as they do the general advancement of the country."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 08:22 AM

" I haven't read every post in this long, long thread:"
I suggest you do - there's a great deal of information in it.
There has never been any question of the cause of the Famine
Think in terms of Governments insisting that Famine relief supplies must be sold to starving Biafrans, Somalis or Nigerians at market prices and you have the picture of what happened in Ireland.
Think in terms of the feller being put in charge of distributing that Famine relief to people he considered an inferior race and a nuisance to his countries economic and political interests, as believing that the Famine was, on the one hand, a convenient solution to his country's problems, and on the other, "God's punishment" for the Famine victims' sins and misdemeanors - there you have the Irish Famine.
All you need to work out is whether the outcome was due to maliciously, racist-inspired neglect, or a deliberate policy to solve "the Irish Question" - the jury is still out on that one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 08:30 PM

Good for you, Thompson, to not become embroiled.

You're not going to change the minds[sic] of PeeDee and FW Kevin and BS Bruce with facts in any case.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 07:41 PM

I'm not going to get involved in this unpleasant row; I'd suggest that those interested in researching the deaths and emigration of those long-ago millions go to original sources.
By the way, I should make it clear that The Landlord's Friend was published in 1813, so it preceded the famine of the 1840s/50s by 30 years; however, the attitudes of the landlords was accurately expressed by its author, Quaker postmistress and journal-keeper Mary Leadbeater, and it gives a clear picture of the inequality that was the norm of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 07:27 PM

"Peel's Brimstone" was rough cornmeal, made of the grain that's used to make hominy...and the result was scouring diarrhoea and vomiting, which often killed people already weakened from hunger.

Oh, please, save us all from this propaganda.

Only about 2% of corn grown now in the US is called "sweet corn" and it is sold quickly to local markets to be boiled or baked and eaten as "corn on the cob".

All other corn is called "field corn" and it is quite cheap. Kernels are mature and will grow into new plants if planted. Sweet corn usually is picked immature and will spoil quickly which is why they Brits would not even consider importing it during the Bad Years of 1845-1851. Usually too young to be viable even if dried and planted.

The corn shipped need to be ground into meal or flour and there were not enough mills to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 06:51 PM

Forgive me if this has been said; I haven't read every post in this long, long thread:

The principal cause of famine - in Ireland in the 1840/50s and again in 1879, in China, India and Africa throughout the 20th century, and in Burma and North Korea today - is poverty. Dirty politics don't help.

"Peel's Brimstone" was rough cornmeal, made of the grain that's used to make hominy; apparently - homesteaders will be able to explain this - it needs to be treated with lye to be edible by humans. This was (and is) unknown to Irish people. They tried to boil it and eat it untreated, and the result was scouring diarrhoea and vomiting, which often killed people already weakened from hunger.

Lumpers, the commonest breed of potato grown in 1840s Ireland, grew well and easily; however, they were very susceptible to blight. Friends of mine grew a couple of rows of Lumpers among their other varieties, and when nothing else was blighted, Lumpers were, even when sprayed with Bordeaux Mixture. Incidentally, Marks & Spencer, the English chain, sells lumpers as a novelty in season; I keep meaning to buy some and try them but have never got around to it.

Irish potato cultivation was and is the most expert in the world. The so-called 'lazy bed' system (in fact very intensive and not exactly labour-saving!) provides the growing crop with rich nutrients and perfect drainage.

Someone was asking how the land came into Irish ownership, when vast swathes were owned by absentee landlords (an ironic Irish joke is "the Devil is an absentee landlord" - think about it!) That would be a series of Land Acts, including the Wyndham Land Act, which broke up the ranches and distributed land to tenant farmers. The economic war imposed by Britain from the 1930s was caused by Ireland refusing to continue to pay compensation to the former landlords.

If anyone would like to get an idea of how Irish people lived then, read The Landlord's Friend (an ebook free to download), an 18th-century pamphlet of advice that gives a clear picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 01:07 PM

A further point Richard
Tim Pat Coogan's book, 'The Famine Plot' included a 10 page letter from Sir Charles Trevelyan, written anonymously to The Irish Chronicle, railing against the Irish people for their stubborn stupidity and their political intransigence in following leaders like O'Connell and their opposition to British rule.
It was published two years before the outbreak of the Famine.
It finishes with a proverb "Roast an Irishman on a spit and you will get him to turn".
Trevelyan was known to have been the author of the letter, yet he was still given the role of feeding the people he despised.
That fact went a long way towards convincing me that the outcome of the Famine was a little more than stupidity
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 04:03 AM

I have always put Britain's behaviour during the famine to stupidity coupled with an inbuilt racism towards the Irish and an awareness to the convenience of having Ireland as part of the Empire.
The appointment of Trevelyan - holding the views he did and and occupying the influential position he did, went some way towards my beginning to believe that Britain's policy was more than that.
The evictions during the Famine and the fifty years following, when arable Irish land was place firmly in the hands of absentee Irish landlords has convinced me that, if it wasn't deliberate, it was incredibly convenient stupidity.
Pat and I spent yesterday evening with a 95 year old North Clare farmer (with half a dozen rare Child ballads in his repertoire b.t.w.) and were regaled with family stories of the Evictions, the Land Wars and the behaviour of the absentee landlords - (County Clare was one of the hardest hit places for evictions in Ireland)
Not a shred of hatred or bitterness, just gentle family reminiscences.
We hope to be spending the next few months recording him.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 03:41 AM

I did actually make a very long and considered post pointing out the cockups and the ambiguities - but the post eater got it.

There is an ambiguity about "culpability". I am not yet convinced that there was genocidal intent. As to negligence liability, hindsight is not a proper test, but in the light of what we now know some things were stupid.

Cancelling the soup kitchen programme was stupid.
Failing to control profiteering was stupid.
Providing intervention food at the market price was stupid.
Failure to control evictions was stupid - an obvious cause of the deaths from disease.
Rigid adherence to free market theory was stupid.
Failure to control rents and interest rates was stupid.
The detail of the public works programme was stupid.
Trevelyan's god-bothering rantings were stupid.
Providing uneatable food was stupid.
Failure to assist fishing was stupid.
Pretence the UK government did not know was stupid. Either they did or they should.
Pretence that a senior enough civil servant cannot affect government policy was stupid. It happens all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 06:21 PM

This is fun, isn't it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 06:19 PM

Now - which of them do you dispute and why
Every single fact here has been linked to by either documented evidence contemporary to the Famine
They are all available on this thread
Where is your evidence for your accusations - what, more denials - thought so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 06:15 PM

"You have had the chance to provide FACTS, and not done so."
Denying the facts I have presented won't make them go away -
You have had the statements of the Governments intentions
You have had the food situation as it existed at the time
You have had the fact that The British Empire was the richest and most powerful entity on the planet at the time.
You have repeated contently statements affirming that the evictions (assisted by the British forces of law and order and the military( were enforced by the Government's insistence that all failure to pay rents should be acted upon, and that this policy was continued log after the Famine was over
The Fact that there was another famine could be described as an act of God (if you believe that sort of thing)
The results of the 1845-1850 Famine were down purely to not only the inaction of the British Government, but on their (at best) indifferent, and probably deliberate actions in dismantling what the previous put in place and enforcing a policy of emigrate or starve.
Every single statement here is backed up with acres of information
Help yourself
You are a silly little man
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 03:39 PM

Wrong again, Jim.

You have had the chance to provide FACTS, and not done so. A reasonable person has to assume that you have none to present.


There WAS more food IMPORTED into Ireland than was EXPORTED.

FACT- your LIES cannot change that.


You say that England "should have done more" yet fail to give one concrete example of what they could have done.

You claim the workhouses were closed, when the number was INCREASED over the time in question.



Your statements are in conflict with reality.

YOU are the one in denial of the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 03:23 PM

"You have yet to provide any basis for this statement"
Been there - done that
The rest is denial bullshit - from you and yours
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 12:16 PM

The Irish Bad Years

Amusing, PeeDee.

Reminds me of Southerners referring to the U.S. Civil War as "The Late Unpleasantness".

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 11:58 AM

There really is no question regarding Britain's culpability

I know nothing about the famine, but I know that is bollocks.
I know that because Jim pasted in an essay by a historian who DOES think Britain culpable, who states unequivocally that the dominant view among historians is that Britain was not!

Also I have quoted historians disputing culpability, so when Jim says there is no question of it, he is talking bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 11:39 AM

The Brits were NOT going to get food from Europe.

"By the time the Communist Manifesto was published, Europe was on the verge of a political explosion. Independent of the labor of socialist theoreticians, capitalism was in the throes of a major economic crisis that had a devastating impact on broad sections of the working population. The years 1846-47 witnessed human suffering on a scale greater than during any previous period in the nineteenth century. The economic crisis was compounded by a crop failure that produced widespread famine. In Ireland more than 21,000 people died of starvation, and hundreds of thousands fell victim to such diseases as typhus and cholera. People were reduced to living off the carcasses of dead animals. In Belgium, 700,000 people lived on public relief, and there were thousands more who were dependent on charity. In Berlin and Vienna the desperate conditions led to clashes between the people and the armed authorities. In France, bread prices rose dramatically and those of potatoes doubled. The unemployment rate skyrocketed."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 11:29 AM

The only hatred shown on this thread is from an IRA supporter who copies and pastes the IRA talking points. They are put out to cause resentment and hatred thus empowering the anti-British activists. Revisionist history is politically motivated and is not based on fact.

The Irish Bad Years were caused by poverty, potato crop failure and disease, the latter killed huge numbers of people all over the world, not just Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 11:25 AM

"There really is no question regarding Britain's culpability "



You have yet to provide any basis for this statement. Your saying it does not give it factual value.

What would you have had the Brits do?
    Butcher the starving Scots and salt the meat for shipment to Ireland?
    Ship in tons (MORE) of food from America, by stealing it since the money was not available? Look at the Bank collapse of 1847. Look at the AVAILABLE food stocks from other nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 11:02 AM

"It does seem extraordinarily obvious that England could have done more, and more sensible things,"
Richard;
There really is no question regarding Britain's culpability in it's behaviour turning a natural disaster into a catastrophe on the scale that it was - even that nice Mr Blur apologised for Britain's part in bringing about so many deaths, on the 150th anniversary, back in 1995
What has never been discussed is whether British policy was deliberate, or whether it was the same neglect Britain displayed towards its colonies, coupled with the innate racism towards the Irish; articulated by their appointed representative, Trevelyan.
Before this thread started, I was inclined to believe it was the latter; now I'm pretty well convinced that if there wasn't method in Britain's madness, they would never have appointed somebody holding the Views Trevalyan did - why should a religious fanatic lift a finger to interfere with "God's divine punishment"?   
Much of the same hatred has been reflected here by those attempting to get Britain off the hook.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 10:21 AM

Yeah - I'm sure everybody can see the force of your overwhelming logic Brucie
I stand totally corrected!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 10:11 AM

Like what, Richard?

I have been asking WHAT could England have done AT THAT TIME?

And gotten no answer- to say they should have done more is like saying that peace should reign over us all- We agree, but don't know how to implement it.

Great sentiment, but short on facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 10:05 AM

It does seem extraordinarily obvious that England could have done more, and more sensible things, to reduce the effect of the crop failures. It does seem an extraordinary and unconvincing sophistry to distinguish deaths from diseases of poverty from deaths from starvation.
The efforts of K, T, and BB have done more than anything Jim or Olly have said to convince me that material parts of English actions about the potato famine were unwise and in the event harmful. And sinister.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 09:26 AM

So, you continue to deny reality here as in the other threads?



You have yet to give any FACTS.

You make unsupported statements that are contradicted by published facts.



We ALL acknowledge that the Famine was a terrible thing- YOU are trying to place blame without any basis but your own bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 09:18 AM

Had your figures, over and over again - had the statements - read them and weep
This appears a somewhat miserable attempt at revenge taking for your having your arse kicked on the other thread - you are no better than this pair of turds
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 09:12 AM

Then back them WITH INFORMATION.

The FACTS are that MORE food was imported into Ireland than was exported.

Are you arguing otherwise? THEN SHOW YOUR FIGURES.

As of now, you are lying rather than arguing.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 08:47 AM

No they have not
You have put up no arguments
You are now attempting to smear
Feel free to contradict anything I have put up with information of your own
Hit and run is just about played out on this thread
Now
You have had the statements of the Governments intentions
You have had the food situation as it existed at the time
You have had the fact that The British Empire was the richest and most powerful entity on the planet at the time.
You have repeated contently statements affirming that the evictions (assisted by the British forces of law and order and the military( were enforced by the Government's insistence that all failure to pay rents should be acted upon, and that this policy was continued log after the Famine was over
The Fact that there was another famine could be described as an act of God (if you believe that sort of thing)
The results of the 1845-1850 Famine were down purely to not only the inaction of the British Government, but on their (at best) indifferent, and probably deliberate actions in dismantling what the previous put in place and enforcing a policy of emigrate or starve.
Every single statement here is backed up with acres of information
As I said, feel free
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 08:26 AM

Jim,

Your statements have been countered by factual information that indicate you have been misinformed. When you have some basis other than non-supported opinion, you can try to make your point.

Until then, stop repeating what has already been shown to be false- THAT is "LYING"

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 08:15 AM

Seems you have no answer eiher
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 07:49 AM

Jim         minus one
Reality    five

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 07:41 AM

What a load of blustering crap
You have had the statements of the Governments intentions
You have had the food situation as it existed at the time
You have had the fact that The British Empire was the richest and most powerful entity on the planet at the time.
You have repeated contently statements affirming that the evictions (assisted by the British forces of law and order and the military( were enforced by the Government's insistence that all failure to pay rents should be acted upon, and that this policy was continued log after the Famine was over
The Fact that there was another famine could be described as an act of God (if you believe that sort of thing)
The results of the 1845-1850 Famine were down purely to not only the inaction of the British Government, but on their (at best) indifferent, and probably deliberate actions in dismantling what the previous put in place and enforcing a policy of emigrate or starve.
I began all this undecided as to whether British actions were racist-based indifference or deliberate policy aimed ast solving 'The Irish Question' as suggested by Trevelyan.
Your loutish mouthings have gone a long way to deciding me that the latrter was the case and your brutish behaviour here has given a pretty fair representation of kind of individuals that managed one million= deaths and a continuing cycle of emigrations.
Well don Tear-arse - a valuable contribution to my education
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 07:21 AM

Jim          zero
Reality    five

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 05:00 AM

OK then Christmas just to get the terminology correct and make it chrystal clear for ANYBODY that is still following this farce:

An EXPORT FROM Britain is one that is sent out of, i.e., leaves Wales, England or Scotland – GOT THAT??
An EXPORT FROM Ireland is one that is sent out of, i.e., leaves Ireland – GOT THAT??

If you have now managed to grasp that rather basic concept then it becomes blatantly obvious that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Britain to export anything out of Ireland – That is all down to command, usage and comprehension of the English language coupled with common sense and logic.

You have been given the figures covering the years 1845 to 1848 they show what was exported from Ireland and what was exported from Britain – over the period in question more was exported from Britain and IMPORTED into Ireland than was exported from Ireland and IMPORTED into Britain - FACT.

In response to your question:
"Did Britain insist that rent arrears should be acted upon, and did they not facilitate mass evictions of bankrupt families for half a century, providing the troops and demolition squads to resist all opposition"

Point 1: The British Government refused to accept as a reason for non-payment of taxes by Irish landowners and Irish farmers the argument that they could not pay their taxes because the rent income from their tenants had not been paid – The landlords had to pay taxes whether they received rents or not. It was not the job of the British Government to collect rent on behalf of the landowners.

Point 2: Non-payment of rent and bankruptcy has got nothing to do with central Government it is a matter of civil law. It is strictly a private business arrangement between landlord and tenant – TRUE?? If for any reason I cannot pay my rent, I do not view it that it is the Government's responsibility or duty to pay it for me. By the way when do you think the "Welfare State" was created?
To answer "Tick" one of the following:
A – 1845
B – 1948

3: Troops were stationed according to rotation in various garrison towns throughout the United Kingdom and the Empire, part of their duties then, as now, included acting as an aid to the civil power in areas and in situations where the rule of law and order maybe challenged and disturbances of the peace may occur that the Police Force cannot control. Such situations are determined by local authorities, not by the Government, the local authority requests assistance, the relevant Government Ministry (Home Office for inside the United Kingdom) evaluates the request then approves or rejects it.

I do not believe and have never seen any evidence that the British Government ever engaged the services of, or provided, demolition squads to assist a landlord in the demolition of his own property.

Present at any legal eviction there would be representatives of the following:
- Landowner
- Civil Court Official
- Bailliffs
- Police if trouble was anticipated
- Troops to support the Police if it had been evaluated that the situation warranted their presence.

The eviction being a purely "civil" matter under law would not involve any participation on the part of the Government.

Now then Christmas let us review what you think the British Government should have done. In your brightly coloured scream you seemed to have forgotten about the added proviso regarding any suggestions that they should reflect what ACTUALLY COULD HAVE BEEN DONE in the mid-1800s:

1: "LEFT THE WORKHOUSES OPEN"
Well when you consider that in 1838 Ireland had no Workhouses to provide refuge for the destitute, take a look at what WAS DONE. By 1845, 128 Workhouses had been built and by 1851, 163 had been built. So during the course of the period under discussion the number of workhouses increased.

Over the period in question did the problems and conditions remain universally constant or did both problems and conditions change not only in nature and scale nationally but also regionally? Obviously as things improved in some regions then resources to those regions were reduced and the finances and resources redirected to other locations where they were still needed. That to my mind seems to be both natural and sensible.

2: "THEY SHOULD HAVE STOPPED IMPORTING FOOD"
WHAT?? Food should not have been sent to Ireland? Or do you not know what you are talking about? I believe that you mean that EXPORTS of food FROM Ireland should have been stopped – basically as anything else just simply does not make sense.

A – Food was not the problem in Ireland to call it a Famine completely misrepresents what was going on. What was needed was money in Ireland, what was needed was employment, what was needed was urgent agrarian reform. Therefore those who were producing food HAD TO be kept in business. They HAD TO be allowed to make money in order to pay taxes to provide the authorities with revenue to sustain the relief effort and also to ensure next year's crops. The production of food in Ireland declined through-out the period under discussion and food had to be EXPORTED FROM Britain and IMPORTED INTO Ireland – FACT.

B - Irrespective of how much food was being grown in Ireland it could not be transported to the areas where it was needed, stored in sufficient quantities and distributed. One of the realities of the situation WAS THAT THE PEOPLE HAD TO MOVE. Said before not even sheep are stupid enough to remain on hills with no grazing.

C – Refusal to look at the global picture and to deliberately ignore its scale and its consequences plays a big part in the Nationalists "Victim" propaganda campaign regarding the "Famine". The blight had not just struck Ireland it had hit other places throughout Europe and mainland Britain as well. It had arrived earlier and was compounded by failures in cereal crops as well on mainland Britain and on the continent and it was this problem that caused those countries to stop exports of food NOT the potato blight.

Cereal crops available for purchase and import were in short supply world-wide and premium prices were charged. Great Britain may well have been one of the richest and most powerful countries in the world at the time but between 1846 and 1848 Great Britain was in the middle of a major financial crisis. These facts whilst inconvenient from the Nationalists arguments perspective still did factor themselves into what was possible, and what was not, from the perspective of those struggling with the problem at the time.

3: "THEY SHOULD HAVE RELEASED THE AVAILABLE FOOD LOCKED UP IN WAREHOUSES"
An apparently nice, neat, obvious, simple sort of solution – but it would not have done any good would it? It would have helped a few in the short term, but that is all it would have done, the problems would only return next year and the cupboards would have been bare. That is precisely what happened when your advice was followed in 1846, when the late harvest of potatoes survived and were distributed. Many of those who received them ate them all or sold them keeping none for planting in 1847, which oddly enough was a Blight Free year yet the "worst year" of the "famine". So the lesson learned was that if you have food stored then you release it in minimum quantities only, so that you always have some to give if things get worse, as they did do in 1848. Throughout this period the British Government and various British Charities were feeding 43% of the population of Ireland.

The main killer was not the lack of food – very few people actually starved to death during this "famine". The figures that astound me are those for 1847, supposedly the "worst year of the famine" where ~250,000 died – where only ~6,000 of them actually died because of want of food. No-one had any understanding of the diseases that ravaged the population during the period under discussion, or any idea of effective treatment or remedies at the time and they would not even begin to do so until 35 years had passed by.

4: "THEY SHOULD HAVE PROVIDED ASSISTANCE TO HELP THE SUFFERING POPULATION RIDE THE WORST EFFECTS OF THE FAMINE RATHER THAN FORCING THEM TO EMIGRATE OR DIE"

As far as was able (i.e. within their capabilities at the time) they did just that. Had the population of Ireland just hunkered down and stayed put they would have died in their millions – they didn't , they moved because THEY HAD TO there were no alternatives. The factors that reduced the population of Ireland in the period under discussion in descending order of magnitude were as follows:
Emigration – 60%
Disease – 32%
Starvation – 8%

While in the remainder of the 1800s Ireland, mainland Britain and Europe did suffer occasional food shortages there was never another "famine". In Ireland that was because the necessary agrarian reforms were implemented and farming became more efficient, less people were making a living off the land and transport infrastructure was greatly improved. All of these measures were NOT imposed on the landowners and farmers by the Government they came into being because it was in their own interests to do so and it was all funded PRIVATELY it was not brought about by Government investment. To maintain the assumption, and assert, that any government in 1845 could act and respond as any government could today is just totally ludicrous and the height of idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:56 PM

No food whatever should have been exported between 1845 and 1850 - it was.
The warehouses contained plenty of food - they were locked and guarded
There was enough under lock and key to relieve the worst aspects of the famine
The already overcrowded workhouses were closed, relief schemes abandoned and feeding the starving became the responsibilities of charities like the Quakers.
In 1847 (Black '45) the relief scheme was abandoned and the British Government ordered that all Famine relief should be "sold at market prices" so as not to interfere with the laissez-faire policy.
Relief ships were being intercepted at the ports at the height of the Famine and sent back and forth to England in order to inflate the price the good old laissez-faire policy again.
The Government ordered that rent arrears should be acted on, those not able to pay rents should be evicted and the dwellings destroyed so nobody could move back into them - many thousands were forced to live in the fields, some burrowing into the earth as a protection from the elements
The police and the army, along with demolition teams, were provided to facilitate the evictions.
The evictions remained a major part of Irish life to the end of the century.
Stop bluffing - read what has already been put up and justify the actual events - stop retreading something that has is fully documented and accepted
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:23 PM

Jim          zero
Reality      one

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 11:06 AM

Jim: "Did Britain export enough food out of Ireland to feed the population several times over, as the#at nice Mrs Smith say they did?




"Point 1: I can say with absolute certainty that Britain exported NO food out of Ireland.

Irish landowners and Irish farmers did export food out of Ireland between 1845 and 1851 in ever decreasing amounts, while at the same time the British Government along with quite a few British Charities did export an ever increasing amount of food TO Ireland during that same period. (You have actually been given the figures taken from Cormac Ó Gárda's Book)
"
Facts as presented:

1844 Peel's Government - Exported 424 - Imported 30 - Non-famine year Corn Laws in place
1845 Peel's Government - Exported 513 - Imported 28 - Famine struck late in year, Corn Laws in place
1846 50% Peel/ 50% Russell - Exported 284 - Imported 197 - First full year of the famine Corn Laws repealed
1847 Russell's Government - Exported 146 - Imported 889 - Black '47 Out of a population of some 7 million people Russell's Government is feeding 3 million.
1848 Russell's Government - Exported 314 - Imported 439


So

1844 (non-famine) net 396 exported ( NO starving Irishmen)
1845 (start of famine late in year) net 485 exported
1846 Net 87 exported
1847 Net 743 IMPORTED
1848 Net 125 IMPORTED

So, during the FAMINE YEARS of 45- 48, "England" IMPORTED a net of 296 AFTER all exports by the Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 10:46 AM

"Care to provide any facts to back up your claims, as others have done here?"
You've had my facts - your friends have complained there are too many of them - site meeting needed to get the three of yu singing from the same hymn book.
I have responded to every single challenge to their arguments (2 of them two and a half counting your good self) - they have refused to respond to documented facts care to have a go yourself
Your starter for ten
Did Britain export enough food out of Ireland to feed the population several times over, as the#at nice Mrs Smith say they did?
If they did, would you care to justify it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 09:42 AM

Jim,

Your statements have been refuted, point by point.

Care to provide any facts to back up your claims, as others have done here?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 09:32 AM

Utter bollocks - it has never been disputed that Britain continued to export four times the amount of food out of Ireland than was capable of feeding the Irish population - even your "definitive" mrs Smith says so.
I assume you are going to continue with straight unqualified denial without evidence - let's see shall we
Did Britain insist that rent arrears should be acted on, and did they not facilitate mass evictions of bankrupt families for half a century, providing the troops and demolition squads to resist all opposition?
Off you go then
"By the bye "what should have been done differently that actually COULD HAVE BEEN DONE?"
Your repetition of this is getting like Keith's Dalek imitations
They should have LEFT THE WORKHOUSES OPEN - THEY SHOULD HAVE STOPPED IMPORTING FOOD - THEY SHOULD HAVE RELEASED THE AVAILABLE FOOD LOCKED UP IN WAREHOUSES - THEY SHOULD HAVE PROVIDED ASSISTANCE TO HELP THE SUFFERING POPULATION RIDE THE WORST EFFECTS OF THE FAMINE RATHER THAN FORCING THEM TO EMIGRATE OR DIE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 06:12 AM

"Did Britain export enough food out of Ireland to feed the population several times over, as the#at nice Mrs Smith say they did?
If they did, would you care to justify it?"

Point 1: I can say with absolute certainty that Britain exported NO food out of Ireland.

Irish landowners and Irish farmers did export food out of Ireland between 1845 and 1851 in ever decreasing amounts, while at the same time the British Government along with quite a few British Charities did export an ever increasing amount of food TO Ireland during that same period. (You have actually been given the figures taken from Cormac Ó Gárda's Book)

Point 2: Justification for the export of any food from Ireland during the period 1845 to 1851? Now that is both simple and obvious Christmas - Those producing the food had to survive and Ireland needed the cash.

Point 3: Please don't get too hung up on this being a "Famine" - Lack of food was not what was killing people - disease was. (Figures already supplied - worst year of the "Famine" Black'47 ~250,000 people died in Ireland that year - of that number only 6,000 starved - normal yearly death toll in Ireland was something in the order of 134,000 - taken from Joel Mokyr's studies on the subject)

Ready for your next question Christmas

By the bye "what should have been done differently that actually COULD HAVE BEEN DONE?

I have listed the steps taken to provide assistance to relieve the effects of the Blight, and you seem to completely ignore the rather obvious fact that had there been a deliberate policy of genocide in place then no steps would have been taken at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 03:21 PM

Just like Billy Connolly once said about policemen - If you want to confuse them, just ask them a question!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 09:37 AM

Tell you what – let's simplify it
Your starter for ten
Did Britain export enough food out of Ireland to feed the population several times over, as the#at nice Mrs Smith say they did?
If they did, would you care to justify it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 09:27 AM

o - the polivcies like closing workhouses, locking up food, leaving people the options of emigrate or starve
You've had all this - you haven't even bothered acknowledging it, let alone dispute it
The facts man - the facts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 08:33 AM

Policies leading to the famine Christmas?

Like

Audited costs to the British Government of aid given £9.95 million.

As demonstrated by the figures relating to imports of grain into Ireland over the period of the famine steadily increasing as exports from Ireland declined sharply - If you have figures that dispute that then I would be glad to see them.

That at the height of the Famine 43% of the population of Ireland was being fed and three quarters of a million people were being given work?

Deployment of Royal Naval vessels to distribute aid on the west coast of Ireland.

That the number of workhouses in Ireland went from 0 in 1838 to 128 in 1845 to 163 in 1851.

That an assisted passage scheme was instigated for those who wished to travel to the new world.

That due to policies adopted Ireland never suffered another famine.

NOW
Still waiting to hear what should have been done differently that actually COULD HAVE BEEN DONE.

Still waiting to hear how the diseases that raged throughout the period and which actually accounted for the vast majority of the deaths could have been attended to between 1845 and 1851 when no-one had any clear understanding of them or the effective treatment of them until the early 1880s.

Still waiting to hear your substantive evidence to support your contention that Charles Edward Trevelyan was a religious fanatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 07:30 AM

Nothing? - thought not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 10:34 AM

"Still waiting for your evidence of people being forced onto ships"
Still waiting for your response to the listed causes of the famine - and have been since to brought your loutishly boorish behavior onto this discussion
You first, but I've given up holding my breath
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 09:37 AM

Given up on the preposterous accusations and claims of deliberate genocide put forward by your good-self Christmas - DREAM ON.

Still waiting for your evidence of people being forced onto ships - Now I know they were on the west coast of Scotland, as the landowners paid for the ships, but no-one was forced onto a ship in Ireland. The most common drill was Ireland to England get a job and save then book passage to the new world - your pal Terry Coleman would probably tell you that if you asked him. Passage on the Steam powered paddle steamers was expensive, passage on merchant ships a great deal cheaper.

The "Irish Times" has a good site for tracing relatives who emigrated to the new world it lists some 225 ships most of whom sailed from Liverpool - look it up and take note of passenger numbers and the low number of deaths. A ship that either yourself or your mate Terry mentioned - The Sailing Barque the British Queen - she is mentioned - three passages in 1851 sailing from Londonderry to New York 6th May 1851 (94 Passengers, No deaths); Dublin to New York 18th June 1851 (244 Passengers, No deaths); Dublin to Nantucket 21st October 1851 (235 Passengers, 5 Deaths).

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 08:27 AM

Noticed that after I posted it Triplane - Made me smile too
You seem have given up on Ireland - which is just as well from your point of view
AS far as your attempts to smear a WW1 veteran as a liar - Keith got there first
Our recordings are of him are housed in the British Library, so perhaps you should contact them and tell them they have a fraud on the premises
The slimeball level you turds seem prepared to sink to to defend the Empire seem to have no depths
As far as your 'Fortnum and Mason jibe.
I lived in Kikby, just outside Liverpool, said to be one of the largest slum clearance estates in Europe
It was a half hour bus-ride to the centre. Everybody living on the estate referred to Liverpool a 'Town' For a dozen years of my life, bfore moving to London -
I served my apprenticeship as an electrician on the Docks, which is one of the things I had in common with "liar" Tommy Kenny.
What did you do in the war daddy - apart from your stint in the Boy Scouts and T.A?
You must have an extremely sore throat talking down to people from the hole you've dug for yourself
Come up with something or slither off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 08:03 AM

Yes Triplane I thought it quite a classic Christmas line and it gave me a good chuckle. There is another even better one further up the thread.

Now Christmas as YOU have brought this up:

"I adimired your slimy attempts to nause up another thread by quoting the rule book"

Here's how it seems to work Christmas - you post a load of idiotic, far-fetched, emotive, hysterical crap, most of it just made up - and then I take you to task for it deploying what I regard as being reasonable logical thought backed up with relevant historical fact and statistics. You then claim that you didn't mean that in the first place but refuse to address specific points made that point to even your modified story being the load of crap that it is. We are then subjected to massive screeds of cut'n'pastes the relevance of which can at times be mystifying. I then pull you up further on it and then you call me nasty names and sulk.

Rule Book Christmas?? What on earth are you going on about? Your old Docker pal and all those deserters he knew picked up in all that "constant" mud by Readcoats riding around in trucks. Picked up to be shoved into the first advance line of any "push" and then if they survived they would be picked up again to be shot either before or after being condemned at a drum-head court martial, whose clerks obviously to increase the chaps morale posted notices announcing the deaths on the trench noticeboard. No rule book Christmas all I did was post the actual numbers of those shot for desertion for you. Now if you dispute those numbers or the detail relating to the conduct of courts martial then let's hear it.

Christmas IIRC you once regaled us of your terribly hard and discrimination ridden life growing up in Liverpool, so I was rather intrigued at this bit:

"A friend from Liverpool contacted me and asked me if I would help him interview his Grandfather, who he said was getting old and had done a lot of interesting things in his life.

A group of us drove down from London one Friday and met at my friends house"

How posh for you and your chums to drive down to Liverpool from "Town" - How utterly Edwardian, did you pack your Fortnum & Mason's hamper to sustain you on your journey?

Also liked this bit:

"He described the permanent, deafening noise of gunfire and how young men, little more than boys, would turn around and walk away from the front, not in an attempt to desert, just to get way from the sound."

Know the feeling well - I do the same when twats play Beatle songs in folk clubs.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 04:10 PM

Do people really read what they write here?
This is a diamond amongst lesser gems

"I've really finished responding to your facile crap until you respond to some of mine"

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 10:45 AM

They were given two alternatives but to get on these floating coffins - die at the side of the road or emigrate, whether you were fit to withstand the conditions or not.
You ask that nice Mrs Smith.
Enough diversive waffle - answer the points you have been requested to and have studiously avoided or sling you hook.
You've had all the responses you are getting
I adimired your slimy attempts to nause up another thread by quoting the rule book - you really can't trust those lying WW1 veterans, especially when they criticise the Empire - ask the monkey, he's already told us that.
Slimeball
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 10:45 AM

They were given two alternatives but to get on these floating coffins - die at the side of the road or emigrate, whether you were fit to withstand the conditions or not.
You ask that nice Mrs Smith.
Enough diversive waffle - answer the points you have been requested to and have studiously avoided or sling you hook.
You've had all the responses you are getting
I adimired your slimy attempts to nause up another thread by quoting the rule book - you really can't trust those lying WW1 veterans, especially when they criticise the Empire - ask the monkey, he's already told us that.
Slimeball
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 10:36 AM

And where exactly does Mr Terry Coleman say that people were forcibly put on ships? After all it was you who stated the following wasn't it?

"The forcible shipping out of sick and dying human beings was a contributory factor"

Which is quite a bit different from what you are now trying to rather pathetically state:

"Starving people were left no alternative other than to pack onto overcrowded and unsuitable coffin ships"

And even that, strictly speaking, is not true is it? Classic example of emotive, hysterical claptrap laid on with a trowel.

When it comes ability related to reading things and understanding what they are saying, believe me I do not need help from anyone - wish that the same could be said about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 08:51 AM

"Any substantive evidence at all to back that one up Christmas?"
Starving people were left no alternative other than to pack onto overcrowded and unsuitable coffin ships - any evidence to show that's not the case?
Try Terry Coleman - I'm sure someone will read it for you if you ask around.
I've really finished responding to your facile crap until you respond to some of mine
You've had the facts and figures - including from you own "definitive" researcher - answer them or go on a rout march and get some of the bile out of your system - and take your monkey with you.
Jimmy Riddle (does hat help your limited repertoire of abuses in any way?)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 03:25 AM

"The forcible shipping out of sick and dying human beings was a contributory factor"

Any substantive evidence at all to back that one up Christmas?

" British policy of refusing to feed the poor starved the Irish"

Hmmm interesting then that at the height of the famine British Policy was feeding somewhere between 43% and 47% of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 07:40 AM

I too would be angry if any of that was true.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 05:09 AM

"Calm yourself, and decide if you are going to challenge the statements about famine teaching in schools."
How dare you - why should I bother responding to something you claim to have been stated by an author you have not read - nor have you ever read any author on the subject you have now dominated a discussion on - and proudly admitted that you don't need to.
I've had it with your behaviour, your racism and your dedicated arrogance.
I don't believe for one moment you will, but the least you can do is apologise to the members of this forum you have slurred and withdraw your hateful remarks - but that would be grovelling, wouldn't it.
I got up this morning intending to submit my intended complaints to the form administrator to you first
Your continuing arrogant behaviour has decided me that there really is no point
I really didn't join Mudcat to be told that me and my family - and everyone else in receipt of an Irish, Anglo-Irish or Anglo-American had been brought up to hate Britain
Nor did I expect, on an otherwise liberal, tolerant and open-minded forum, that all Asians had been culturally conditioned to lust after under-age girls.
This really is sewer politics at its worst and it is dragging down this forum.
If that is the type of garbage Mudcat is catering for - I no longer wish to be part of it.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:43 AM

Dunno about the famine, but what's all this about having an open mind Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:42 AM

Calm yourself, and decide if you are going to challenge the statements about famine teaching in schools.
I do not think that you can.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:30 AM

Reputed historian bollocks - tell it to the administrator of this site
One again you are using this forum as an open attack on other races and religions and I intend to do my level best to stop you this time
I am sick to the stomach of your openly racist behaviour - this time in an attack on groups who are direct contributors to this forum and this thread.
Take your racist filth elsewhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:19 AM

Still insisting that us Anglo Irish and Anglo Americans are brainwashed, hate filled morons then?

No.
I do not consider recipients of faith school education to be brainwashed either.

I do believe it to be a fact that Irish and NYS schools taught that Britain was culpable because a reputable historian stated it and neither you nor anyone else has challenged that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 02:42 AM

"Taught to believe that Britain is culpable."
Still insisting that us Anglo Irish and Anglo Americans are brainwashed, hate filled morons then?
Fair enough
I' ll add it to the formal complain I'm in the process of compiling on your now out-of-control behaviour on this forum - vicious racist attacks on members of this forum should just about do it.
I was going to ask that you me warned, but as your behaviour seems to have settled into a now recognisable pattern, I intend to request that you be expelled.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 05:35 PM

hey suffered greatly but it was from various acts of nature,

Naah, PeeDee, it was an Act of God.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 03:46 PM

Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree - Massachusetts?"

Taught to believe that Britain is culpable.
Do you deny it Jim?
I gave my source.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 03:32 PM

"Nice to see that nobody was baited into criticising the Irish."
What!!!!!
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive.
Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree - Massachusetts?"
Guess who?
"12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM"
And his mate Terminus
'a nations of indolent morons besotted with their "whining" patriotic songs'
Ah well - perhaps you hven't read it all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 02:31 PM

Nice to see that nobody was baited into criticising the Irish.

They suffered greatly but it was from various acts of nature, not all the fault of those Brits.

It was over 150 years ago and the Irish prosper all over the World. Can we get over this?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 04:56 PM

Anyway - historians opinions aside - what, from your deep knowledge and understanding - is your opinion on British policy - nobody else's - yours.

I have an open mind Jim, but how can you deny that culpability is disputed?

Do you deny that revisionist historians exist, or that they "deny culpability" and "rehabilitate the British Government" (Kinealy)?

Their view is actually the "dominant" view among historians.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 11:57 AM

"King Henry V and Sir Francis Drake both died of dysentery. Are we to assume that an evil English government starved them too?"
What - are you out of your mind - British policy of refusing to feed the poor starved the Irish
The forcible shipping out of sick and dying human beings was a contributory factor
If you need me to explain it - again -I will
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 11:15 AM

No,
GregF,


That would be you.

The guinea pigs are calling you again. Ever get your duct tape?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 11:09 AM

absolute proof that Canada had a defined policy of genocide

You really are an ass, Bruce- tho its uncertain whether you or PeeDee is the larger one.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 10:46 AM

"In the sailing ships of the middle 19th century, the crossing to America or Canada took up to 12 weeks. By the end of the century the journey to Ellis Island was just 7 to 10 days. By 1911 the shortest passage, made in summer, was down to 5 days; the longest was 9 days. With conditions having improved (although they were by no means extremely comfortable for those in steerage), the transatlantic crossing was no longer seen as a one-time ordeal - See more at: http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/journey-to-Ellis-Island.html#sthash.lTvaV5bl.dpuf"

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 10:36 AM

The incubation period for epidemic typhus is 5-15 days.

If you need me to explain, I will.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 10:30 AM

King Henry V and Sir Francis Drake both died of dysentery. Are we to assume that an evil English government starved them too?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 10:18 AM

To put paid to your attempts to smear those of us who blame Britain - this is my note on the song, John Mitchel, for the CD, 'From Puck to Appleby - written about nine years ago.
It makes quite clear my views on Mitchel's hypocrisy.

"Mitchel, an Irish revolutionary, was a strong advocate of a peasant led rebellion to establish independence for Ireland. In 1848, he was found guilty of treason by a "loaded" jury, and sentenced to fourteen years transportation to Australia. Five years later he escaped from Tasmania and managed to make his way to America. Ironically, while there he became a leading supporter of slavery and the southern cause. He returned to Ireland in 1875, where he became Member of Parliament for Co. Tipperary.
We also recorded this from Wexford Traveller 'Pop's 'Johnny Connors who says he first heard it as "The Convict's Chain" played on the pipes by his grand-uncle Johnny Doran, the legendary travelling piper"

Very interesting posting pdq, though I'm not sure of its relevance.
I trust you are not attempting to show the brutal inhumanity of shipping out weak and ill famine victims to a place unable to cope with them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 10:17 AM

Careful, pdq.

You have now provided Jim C with absolute proof that Canada had a defined policy of genocide and the destruction of all the Irish.

"Dr. George Douglas, Grosse Isle's chief medical officer, recorded that by midsummer of 1847 the quarantine regulations in force were 'physically impossible' to carry out, making it necessary for the emigrants to stay on board their ships for many days. Douglas believed that washing and airing out the ships would be enough to stop the contagion spreading between infected passengers.

With the arrival of thousands of emigrants, the island was quickly overwhelmed. Tents were set up to house the influx of people, but many new arrivals were left lying on the ground without shelter. Robert Whyte records seeing 'hundreds… literally flung on the beach, left amid the mud and stones to crawl on the dry land as they could'. The Anglican Bishop of Montreal, Bishop Mountain, recalled seeing people lying opposite the church screaming for water, while others lay inside the tents without bedding. One child he saw was covered in vermin; another who had 'been walking with some others, sat down for a moment, and died'. Many children were orphaned.""

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 10:05 AM

Once again, the bad years for Ireland, 1845-1851, were marked by several disease epidemics at one time. The term "fever" refers to typhus, and the other great killer was cholera. Dysentary has some of the same symptoms as cholera, but we can assume that dysentary also took a toll. Deaths froms disease greatly exceeded deaths from starvation, and people who are immaciated from the ravages of cholera and disentery will look like they suffering from starvation.

Here as an account of the disease ships that headed to Canada:



"Grosse Isle, Quebec is an island in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, home to a quarantine station set up in 1832 to contain a cholera epidemic, and home to thousands of Irish emigrants from 1832 to 1848.

On 17 May 1847, the first vessel, the Syria, arrived with 430 fever cases. This was followed by eight more ships a few days later. Dr Douglas wrote that he had 'not a bed to lay [the invalids] on… I never contemplated the possibility of every vessel arriving with fever as they do now'. One week later seventeen more vessels had appeared at Grosse Isle. By this time, 695 people were already in hospital. Only two days afterwards the number of vessels reached thirty, with 10,000 immigrants now waiting to be processed. By 29 May, a total of 36 vessels had arrived. The end of May saw forty ships forming a line two miles (3 km) long down the St. Lawrence River. According to Dr Douglas, each one was affected by fever and dysentery. 1100 invalids were accommodated in sheds and tents, or laid out in rows in the church.

Dr. George Douglas, Grosse Isle's chief medical officer, recorded that by midsummer of 1847 the quarantine regulations in force were 'physically impossible' to carry out, making it necessary for the emigrants to stay on board their ships for many days. Douglas believed that washing and airing out the ships would be enough to stop the contagion spreading between infected passengers.

With the arrival of thousands of emigrants, the island was quickly overwhelmed. Tents were set up to house the influx of people, but many new arrivals were left lying on the ground without shelter. Robert Whyte records seeing 'hundreds… literally flung on the beach, left amid the mud and stones to crawl on the dry land as they could'. The Anglican Bishop of Montreal, Bishop Mountain, recalled seeing people lying opposite the church screaming for water, while others lay inside the tents without bedding. One child he saw was covered in vermin; another who had 'been walking with some others, sat down for a moment, and died'. Many children were orphaned."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 09:58 AM

What?
What as Mitchel's book to do with anything here - another straw man to avoid the real questions.
You make outrageous claims, such as your latest attempts to blame land agents for the evictions, then do a runner when they are challenged with facts.
You now are attempting to create a diversion with a book nobody has cited and has nothing to do with the arguments here I extend the same invitation I have to Keith - answer the points.
Mitchel's book (whichever that is) is certainly not the basis of criticism of British culpability - actual British policy is.
You have avoided every item of that that has been put up, and no doubt will continue to do so.
Please give us the benefit of your wisdom and stop waffling
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 09:41 AM

Mitchel's book is the cornerstone of belief and the "research" basis of all books taking the line that Britain was responsible for deliberate "genocide" in Ireland. Pity the book itself was written as a hysterical, politically motivated rant, by a self-confessed supremacist racist, and an abominably poorly researched rant at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 07:22 AM

"So you challenge these facts Jim!"
I certainly do challenge your deformed version of the facts Keith, on every subject you have manipulated them on
Historians dispute whether British policy was a deliberate attempt to cull the Irish population
Not a single historian disputes the description I have given of British policy - all hold British policy to be the cause of the outcome of the Irish Famine.
Anyway - historians opinions aside - what, from your deep knowledge and understanding - is your opinion on British policy - nobody else's - yours.
You have made yourself a figure of fun by time and time again hiding behind experts and historians you have admitted you have never read, on subjects you have admitted you don't understand
You have become a caricature jingoist.
Time to redeem yourself
What is your opinion, and if you are still intending to hide behind opinions that are a total mystery to you - what is their opinion on this?
03 Apr 14 - 04:13 AM
and
03 Apr 14 - 03:56 PM
You have three alternatives
1. Show where any of of these are incorrect
2. Show where any of these did not make British policy culpable for the outcome of the Famine.
And should you feel incapable of doing this:
3. Produce quotes and links to your "majority of historians" who have contradicted the former two
It really isn't any more complicated than that, especially as your claimed absolvers of British policy in the majority, as you claim
There you go - your starter for ten
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 06:36 AM

So you challenge these facts Jim!
"Historians dispute that Britain can be blamed.
Historians dispute the question of blame Greg.
In the context of the famine, nationalist historians blame the government, and revisionists do not.
Blame is disputed"

Only a fool challenges a fact.

And this fact!

"For the record many historians find that Britain can not be blamed.

Or these!!

Put very simply for you to understand, they blame Britain. The Revisionists do not.
For the record many historians find that Britain can not be blamed.
I just said that blame is disputed by some historians, which is true.
Musket, the Revisionists on this do NOT blame Britain.

Why does challenging obvious truths not make you a fool Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 06:10 AM

Can we assume that the Chocolate Soldier's claim of our resident flag-wagger's neutrality has now ridden off into the sunset.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 05:58 AM

"is to be viewed as an authoritative "
Who on earth claimed that - certainly not me?
My view of Mitchel is as stated - a flawed patriot - no more.
Stop insulting my intelligence with red-herrings.
I don't give my undivided support to any source unless I have read and understood it in full - I haven't hid by opinions (distorted or otherwise) of any historian - you are looking in the wrong direction.
I can't believe anybody could be so desperate and so stupid as to blame land agents for the half century of evictions.
The evictions took place with military and practical assistance provided by the authorities in the shape of soldiers and demolition workmen
They were not only allowed to take place, but they were carried out in obeyance of the British Governments direct instruction that all rent arrears must be acted on.
Those humane landlords (and there were a few) who overlooked rent arrears because of the prevailing conditions, did so in defiance of Government policy.
"Which of my statements do you challenge Jim?"
All of them Keith - which of the reasons I have given for the causes of the fatalities and evictions, do you object to - you haven't said yet?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 05:56 AM

"celiberate British policy" - WTF???

"The land agent was an employee of the landowner"

Ehmmmm NO Christmas he wasn't, not by any stretch of the imagination. The land agent leased all of the landowners land for a fixed rent £x. That was a simple business arrangement.

The land agent then subdivided the land into y number of plots and put tenants on it to work.

The land agent then charged y number of tenants £x/y + z/y rent where:
x = fixed rent agreed with the land owner
y = Number of subdivided plots
z = anticipated/desired profit

Under this system -

The landowner is happy he gets his income without having to do a stroke of work for it, and he doesn't even need to see the place.

The land agent is happy because he gets his income without having to do a stroke of work for it, apart from collecting the rent.

The tenant farmer works his arse off and hopefully makes enough to:
a) Pay his rent
b) Feed himself and his family
c) Make some profit by selling any excess at market

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 05:38 AM

Ah so John Mitchel's book written in 1861 in America where he could not possibly have any access to relevant records and after an absence from the country(Ireland) of 13 years is to be viewed as an authoritative account purely because it supports and reinforces your bigoted and biased belief in a supposed genocide perpetrated by Britain.

A book written in Ireland by a Canon of the Roman Catholic Church, Canon John O'Rourke, in 1874 however is to be dismissed and discounted on the basis that - "things have moved on" - How utterly ridiculous and pathetic of you.

Canon O'Rourke in researching his book wrote query sheets and sent them to all who were in possession of information of the Famine. He investigated Public Journals, Parliamentary Blue Books, Parliamentary Debates, pamphlets, periodicals and the reports from the various Societies and Associations responsible for dispensing aid and alms. Canon John O'Rourke in researching the material for his book also visited those parts of the country most affected where he talked to those who had lived through it.

Of the two books, the highly charged political rant penned with scant research by John Mitchel, or the thoroughly researched work by Canon John O'Rourke, I think if I wanted information on the Famine I would rely and put a great deal more credence on the factual authenticity and accuracy of the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 05:14 AM

Which of my statements do you challenge Jim?
Each one is factually correct and not an opinion of mine.
I have no opinion about blame for the famine.


Perhaps you would like to counterbalance it with instances of his admitting that Britain was in any way to blame for the outcome of the Famine?

I originally posted to counterbalance the completely biased, one sided view that was being presented, mainly by you.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 05:06 AM

None of which alters the facts of celiberate British policy
The land agent was an employee of the landowner
Kicking the milkman's horse again - just like with Trevelyan

Bt the Way
From O'Rourkes book - on line
The Government depôts already in existence, as well as those to be established, were only to be in aid of the regular corn and meal trade; and no supplies were to be sold from them, until it was proved to the satisfaction of the Assistant Commissary-General of the district that the necessity for so doing was urgent, and that no other means of obtaining food existed. This rule was, in some instances, kept so stringently, that people died of starvation within easy distance of those depôts, with money in their hands to buy the food that would not be sold to them. The Treasury, rather than Commissary-General Routh or his subordinates, was to blame for this; their strong determination, many times expressed, being, that food accumulated by Government should be husbanded for the spring and summer months of 1847, when they expected the greatest pressure would exist. This was prudence, but prudence founded on ignorance of the real state of things in the closing months of 1846. The dearth of food which they were looking forward to in the coming spring and summer arose fully FIVE MONTHS before the time fixed by the Government; but they were so slow, or so reluctant to realize its truth, that great numbers of people were starved to death before Christmas, because the Government locked up the meal in their depôts, in order to keep the same people alive with it in May and June!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 05:05 AM

"that British policy played no part in the Famine"

Keith's whole thrust on this, on the WW1, on weapons sales, even on a old thread on British Fascism - has been a flag-waving nationalist claim that Britain has done no wrong

Stop wriggling Christmas and your rather pathetic attempt and trying to divert will not succeed - here we are talking the Famine

Now provide the quotation from any of Keith's post where he states "that British policy played no part in the Famine"

If you cannot then you should admit that you were in error, retract your statement putting words into his mouth and apologise to the man.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 04:58 AM

""Other, perhaps less reliable and likely underestimates are that the event led to the deaths of approximately 1 million people through starvation and disease; a further million are thought to have emigrated as a result of the famine.[5] Some scholars estimate that the population of Ireland was reduced by 20–25%.[130] [131]" All of this occurred while taxes, rents, and food exports were being collected and sent to British landlords, in an amount surpassing £6 million.[131]

Ehmmmm Not exactly true Christmas - you have deliberately sought to misrepresent the situation once more. In the bit about the £6 million being remitted, this is mentioned earlier in the article in the section on "Landlords and tenants" in the Wiki piece you linked to and applies not to any point between 1845 and 1851 but to a specific year 1842 - now why didn't you draw our attention to that?

"The [Devon] Commission stated that the principal cause was the bad relations between the landlord and tenant. There was no hereditary loyalty, feudal tie or paternalism as existed in England. Ireland was a conquered country, with the Earl of Clare speaking of the landlords saying "confiscation is their common title." According to the historian Cecil Woodham-Smith, the landlords regarded the land as a source of income from which to extract as much money as possible. With the Irish "brooding over their discontent in sullen indignation" according to the Earl of Clare, Ireland was seen as a hostile place in which to live, and as a consequence absentee landlords were common, with some visiting their property once or twice in a lifetime, or never. The rents from Ireland were then spent in England, it being estimated[who?] that in 1842 £6,000,000 was remitted out of Ireland.[citation needed]

According to Woodham-Smith, the ability of the middlemen was measured by the amount of money they could contrive to extract.[19] Described by the Commission as "the most oppressive species of tyrant that ever lent assistance to the destruction of a country," they were invariably described as "land sharks" and "bloodsuckers."[20]

The middlemen leased large tracts of land from the landlords on long leases with fixed rents, which they then sublet as they saw fit. They split the holding into smaller and smaller parcels to increase the amounts of rents they could then obtain, a system called conacre. Tenants could be evicted for reasons such as non-payment of rents (which were very high), or if the landlord decided to raise sheep instead of grain crops. The cottier paid his rent by working for the landlord.[21] Any improvements made on the holdings by the tenants became the property of the landlords when the lease expired or was terminated, which acted as a disincentive to improvements. The tenants had no security of tenure on the land; being tenants "at will" they could be turned out whenever the landlord chose. This class of tenant made up the majority of tenant farmers in Ireland, the exception being in Ulster where there existed a practice known as "tenant right", under which tenants were compensated for any improvements made to their holdings. The commission according to Woodham-Smith stated that "the superior prosperity and tranquility of Ulster, compared with the rest of Ireland, were due to tenant right."[20]

So then Christmas taking all of that into account:

Who was it that subdivided the land? The land owner or the land agent? - Answer - The Land Agent

Who was it leased that subdivided land to the Cottier or tenant? The land owner or the land agent? - Answer - The Land Agent.

Who was it that evicted the tenant at will? The land owner or the land agent? - Answer - The Land Agent

The following shows the short-sightedness and short-termism of the tenants:

"Any improvements made on the holdings by the tenants became the property of the landlords when the lease expired or was terminated, which acted as a disincentive to improvements."

Now would these improvements increase the yield of the land? If so then the tenant and land agent would benefit, so a win-win situation that would improve the lot of both and go a long way in securing succession of the tenancy (Only a feckin' eedjit would throw out a good improving tenant to replace him with a slothful bad one - True?).

"The British government reported [Devon Commission], shortly before the famine, that poverty was so widespread that one-third of all Irish small holdings could not support their families, after paying their rent, except by earnings of seasonal migrant labour in England and Scotland."

Now that would suggest to me Christmas that the agrarian system being operating and run in Ireland, by the Irish, was unsustainable and that it would have been inevitable famine or no famine that people would have had to have moved off the land sooner rather than later. The population of Ireland in 2013 was 4.95 million and the percentage of the total workforce unemployed was almost 14%. If Ireland cannot find work for a workforce of some 2.2 million people how the hell do you think it would do for a population of over 9 million?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 04:31 AM

"that British policy played no part in the Famine"
Keith's whole thrust on this, on the WW1, on weapons sales, even on a old thread on British Fascism - has been a flag-waving nationalist claim that Britain has done no wrong
His present mantra is an insistence that Britain is in no way to blame for what happened in Ireland.
He has demanded to the point of hysteria, that we admit that those who blame Britain are in the minority.
Keith's extreme nationalism goes through most of his postings - it is his idenifying feature
This is a small sample from Keith's postings

"For the record many historians find that Britain can not be blamed.
those who blame Britain are the minority
Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive.
When they have done that, most of them find that Britain can not be blamed.
Put very simply for you to understand, they blame Britain. The Revisionists do not.
For the record many historians find that Britain can not be blamed.
I just said that blame is disputed by some historians, which is true.
Musket, the Revisionists on this do NOT blame Britain.
Historians dispute that Britain can be blamed.
Historians dispute the question of blame Greg.
In the context of the famine, nationalist historians blame the government, and revisionists do not.
Blame is disputed."

Perhaps you would like to counterbalance it with instances of his admitting that Britain was in any way to blame for the outcome of the Famine?
You have been given a list of exactly what part British policy played in the outcome of the Famine - you continue to refuse to respond with anything other than unqualified denial of documented evidence.
Your continuing belligerently bulldozing tone is an indication that you Keith's mind-numb views.
If my description of British policy is wrong - show where it is and stop trying to shout and bluster it down - this is a debating forum, not one of your thuggish "I wanna be a soldier" brawls.
By the way - Canon John O'Rourke was writing in 1874, when the whole of Ireland was blaming Britain for the outcome of the famine.
Things have very much moved on since then.
Respond to the facts - you boorish lout
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 04:20 AM

The only thing in dispute is whether Britain's culpability was deliberate or just malicious, hate-inspired predatory neglect

How can you deny that culpability IS disputed Jim?

Do you deny that revisionist historians exist, or that they "deny culpability" and "rehabilitate the British Government" (Kinealy)?

Their view is actually the "dominant" view among historians.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 03:50 AM

From this thread or any other for that matter Christmas please provide the quote from any of Keith's posts where he at any time has claimed or stated:

that British policy played no part in the Famine

Don't worry Christmas, I will not hold my breath waiting for you to back up that accusation. I know you do not like and cannot cope with direct challenges relating to fact. I also know that you tend to lie to support any point that you attempt to make. I also know that like John Mitchel and his fellow Young Ireland supporters you are totally clueless as to what measures you think could have been put in place, or how it could have been dealt with.

"Many key facts are clear: the Irish Famine was real, not artificial, food was extremely scarce; it could not have been solved by closing the ports; CHARGES OF GENOCIDE CANNOT BE SUSTAINED." - Canon John O'Rourke

"" The crucial question in whether or not it is genocide comes down to intent. Did the English government intend to destroy the Irish people? The answer is no. They were heartlessly negligent, but neglect is not the same as murder. There was never any plan to wipe out the Irish NOR ANY ACTIONS THAT COULD BE VIEWED AS SUCH. The government didn't directly kill anyone nor did they deliberatively destroy any food. In fact the relief aid, pathetic as it was, does damage the genocide argument. After all, why would the government set up soup kitchens** if it wanted the Irish to die?"

** - Those soup kitchens at the height of the Famine fed and kept alive damn near 43% of the population.

So far every single point you have put forward has been addressed.
So far every single counter-point put to you, every single question put to you has been evaded and ignored by you.

So when did the British Government force this agrarian policy on Ireland in the early part of the 19th century? For that matter when did the British Government force any agricultural policy on anybody anywhere during either the 18th or 19th centuries? Our members from across the pond might be able to tell us of any agricultural policies that were forced on any of the 13 Colonies by the British Government.

Also rather keen to discover how the British Empire actually managed to survive the number of years that it did being so reliant on Irish produce. I do presume that Irish farmers were paid for their crops and livestock and that if this was so essential to the well being of the British Empire and the system that produced this bounty was set up in the early part of the 19th century, how come the British Empire didn't starve when it all collapsed in 1845? Want to hear the truth Christmas?

The British Government never, ever imposed any agricultural policy, anywhere.

The agrarian set up in Ireland that prevailed in the mid-1800s was a shambles overseen by Irish landlords, Irish land agents, Irish tenant farmers, Cottiers (On whom the landowners and farmers depended for labour) and itinerant labourers.

Agriculture in Ireland was poorly organised and grossly inefficient and nobody, repeat NOBODY, concerned with it had shown the least interest in improving it for at least two hundred years. Commission after Commission had advocated that the system in place required sweeping reform - but due to inertia and indolence no-one involved with it in Ireland could be arsed to do anything about it, too laid back, anything for the easy life - Attitudes that prevailed and permeated from top to bottom - and in 1845 when the blight struck it bit them and bit them hard. All that the British Government of the day could do was REACT to the realities of the situation as it unfolded and evolved. There wasn't a single Government anywhere on earth that could have coped with the effects of the blight that struck in 1845.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 03:43 AM

"That means that one of us is lying."
Why - because you say so, presumably.
"These figures are in dispute"
They are indeed.
You appear to have missed a bit from your unlinked cut-'n-paste; careless of you!
"Other, perhaps less reliable and likely underestimates are that the event led to the deaths of approximately 1 million people through starvation and disease; a further million are thought to have emigrated as a result of the famine.[5] Some scholars estimate that the population of Ireland was reduced by 20–25%.[130] All of this occurred while taxes, rents, and food exports were being collected and sent to British landlords, in an amount surpassing £6 million.[131]"
The Great Famine (Ireland)
The actual death and emigration figures may be in dispute, the causes for those figures being as high as they were are not- they are cited over and over again in everything that has been written on the Great famine.
The only thing in dispute is whether Britain's culpability was deliberate or just malicious, hate-inspired predatory neglect
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 04:59 PM

...all their diseases, most of which were caused by overcrowding, overpopulation and poor sanitation...Almost all of the Irish who died between 1845 and 1855 died from disease, not hunger.

Dogshit, fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 04:25 PM

These figures are in dispute, but they are the best anybody can produce at his late date. Note ratio of disease to starvation is quite high and that ratio is not in as much dispute as the total number of deaths. If you like one million total deaths, fine.


"In 1851, the census commissioners collected information on the number who died in each family since 1841, the cause, season and year of death. Its disputed findings were as follows: 21,770 total deaths from starvation in the previous decade, and 400,720 deaths from disease. Listed diseases were fever, dysentery, cholera, smallpox and influenza; the first two being the main killers (222,021 and 93,232). The commissioners acknowledged that their figures were incomplete and that the true number of deaths was probably higher: "The greater the amount of destitution of mortality...the less will be the amount of recorded deaths derived through any household form; – for not only were whole families swept away by disease...but whole villages were effaced from off the land." A later historian has this to say: "In 1851, the Census Commissioners attempted to produce a table of mortality for each year since 1841... The statistics provided were flawed and probably under-estimated the level of mortality..."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 04:02 PM

so who says most famine victims died of disease? I had never heard of that before this thread. Certainly very many, particularly on ships and in workhouses. But most? Why has this never been brought up in my presence before? And dogs and rats did of course spread disease. But if you have no food it seems to me you will have an awful lot of people dying on roadsides, in cabins, in fields, of plain and simple starvation.

Have epidemiologists put this forth?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:57 PM

Plenty Keith - all saved for when its needed

I think not Jim.
I never said anything like that in any thread.
That means that one of us is lying.
Who could it be??

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:56 PM

Long term policy Brucie - get the land out of the Irish hands and into English absentee landowners control
Enough food was available in Ireland throughout the Famine to feed the population several times over - established fact.
Food continued to be exported out of Ireland throughout the Famine - established fact.
Locked warehouses containing food were guarded by armed troops to prevent it from falling into the hands of starving Irish - established fact.
On Trevelyan's instructions, Famine relief was sold to the starving poor at market prices so as not to interfere with the laissez-faire policy - established fact.
Profiteering from shipments of Famine relief food was widespread during the famine; some shipments crossed the Irish sea between Britain and Ireland up to four times before being unloaded in order to force up prices; Trevelyan and the British authorities were fully aware of this but did nothing to prevent it - established fact.
The British authorities not only allowed mass evictions of families unable to pay rent, but they insisted on all rents being paid within a certain period; if not, the tenants should be evicted - established fact.
When the evictions took place, under armed assistance from the military and the police, the vacated homes were systematically destroyed so the starving Irish could not use them for shelter; many thousands died of hunger and disease at the roadside and buried in unmarked mass graves - established fact.
Britain's aim was to cull the Irish nation in order to make it an efficient part of the British Empire - stated policy and established fact.
Really shouldn't have to repeat all this - it's all here - maybe you should get the same feller who reads these long bits to Terrytoon and Numbskull, to read them to you too.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:29 PM

If we give dates to the Irish Disaster as 1845-51, the following statement show that the basics of disease pathogens was just begining to be understood.


"John Snow was a skeptic of the then-dominant miasma theory. The germ theory of disease pioneered by Girolamo Fracastoro had not yet achieved full development or widespread currency, so Snow did not understand the mechanism by which the disease was transmitted. He first published his theory in an 1849 essay On the Mode of Communication of Cholera. Despite continuing reports, he was awarded 30,000 French francs for this work by the Institut de France. In 1855 he published a second edition of his article, documenting his more elaborate investigation of the effect of the water supply in the Soho, London epidemic of 1854.

By talking to local residents, he identified the source of the outbreak as the public water pump on Broad Street (now Broadwick Street). Although Snow's chemical and microscope examination of a water sample from the Broad Street pump did not conclusively prove its danger, his studies of the pattern of the disease were convincing enough to persuade the local council to disable the well pump by removing its handle. This action has been commonly credited as ending the outbreak, but Snow observed that the epidemic may have already been in rapid decline.

Snow later used a dot map to illustrate the cluster of cholera cases around the pump. He also used statistics to illustrate the connection between the quality of the water source and cholera cases. He showed that the Southwark and Vauxhall Waterworks Company was taking water from sewage-polluted sections of the Thames and delivering the water to homes, leading to an increased incidence of cholera. Snow's study was a major event in the history of public health and geography. It is regarded as one of the founding events of the science of epidemiology."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:24 PM

Facts as presented:

1844 Peel's Government - Exported 424 - Imported 30 - Non-famine year Corn Laws in place
1845 Peel's Government - Exported 513 - Imported 28 - Famine struck late in year, Corn Laws in place
1846 50% Peel/ 50% Russell - Exported 284 - Imported 197 - First full year of the famine Corn Laws repealed
1847 Russell's Government - Exported 146 - Imported 889 - Black '47 Out of a population of some 7 million people Russell's Government is feeding 3 million.
1848 Russell's Government - Exported 314 - Imported 439


Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 02:22 PM

... especially as part of Britain's wealth came from food being shipped out of starvig Ireland throughout the Famine
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:21 PM

Will someone put that child to bed - way past his bed-time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:15 PM

Jim, do you deny that revisionist historians exist, or that they "deny culpability" and "rehabilitate" the British Government (Kinealy)?

Why will you not answer Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 02:22 PM

Been there - done that P
The British Empire was the most powerful and richest entity on the Planet gaining wealth from all over the world
That Britain couldn't afford to keep the Irish alive and living in Ireland doesn't wash - ask any of Keith's historians - especially as part of Britain's wealth came from food being shipped out of starvig Ireland throughout the Famine
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 02:12 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 12:44 PM

From what I can tell, the population of Ireland after the 1841 census was 8.2 million.

The population of England was then 13.6 million.

So, for each Irish person there was 1.7 English who were expected to feed the Irish and treat all their diseases, most of which were caused by overcrowding, overpopulation and poor sanitation. The English are not at fault here.

Almost all of the Irish who died between 1845 and 1855 died from disease, not hunger.

Official Irish census reports show 17 died of starvation in 1840 and about 6000 from starvation in 1847, the worst such year of that period.

Repeat: what were the English supposed to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 12:17 PM

"How is it going?
Nothing so far?"
Plenty Keith - all saved for when its needed
You're out of this game now - I've not intention of inviting you back so you can diversify on yet another front
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 11:46 AM

"WHAT SHOULD THEY HAVE DONE that was possible AT THE TIME?"
For crying out loud Bruce - read the thread
I've not the slightest intention of spending another lifetime ploutering over this subject again
You came in to defend Keith's "majority of historians" claim - do so.
You have a summing up of my arguments on the British actions regarding the effects of the Famine but, as you appear not to have looked at it, here it is again (03 Apr 14 - 04:13 AM)
You obviously haven't bothered your arse familiarising yourself with the arguments, otherwise you wouldn't have put up Mokyr - who is not a historian, but a historical economist whom Keith has requested we forget.
If you notice anything we have overlooked - feel free to point it out.
"Lie. I never made any such claim"
Now look what you've done - you've gone and woke the Dalek - we'll never get him back to sleep now.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 11:38 AM

Jim,
By the way - just been revisiting the old thread you kindly linked us to and am checking out and making a list of your statements there tpoo compare them with your claim of what you have "only been interested in - which is not defending Britain"

How is it going?
Nothing so far?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 11:21 AM

Keith has slithered his way from claiming that British policy played no part in the Famine

Lie.
I never made any such claim or stated any opinion about the History of the famine.
I never even claimed any knowledge of it.

to his present position of saying there is a dispute among historians as to whether it did.

That has always been my only claim, AND IT IS TRUE!
You attacked, ridiculed and derided me for saying it, but I was right and you and Greg were wrong.
Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 11:15 AM

So, again,

WHAT SHOULD THEY HAVE DONE that was possible AT THE TIME?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 11:10 AM

"The obvious British failing was in not turning Ireland into mills and industrial hellholes."
No - the British failing was in creating an agrarian system to suit the British Empire and leaving the Irish people in the vunerable position of being reliant on one crop
Been there- done that - read the thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM

"he agrarian policy fostered by Britain from the beginning of the 19th century was partly to blame for the effects of the Famine in the first place."

True. The obvious British failing was in not turning Ireland into mills and industrial hellholes.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 10:44 AM

"Britain from the beginning of the 19th century was partly to blame for the effects of the Famine in the first place."


I can agree with this- as have most of those you have been arguing with.

Can YOU agree that they did what they could at that time to provide relief?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 10:30 AM

None of whom deny British culpability for the outcome of the Famine due to their policy - follow the link.
They may disagree whether Britain carried out a deliberate policy of genocide - none of them, and no other historian in to my knowledge, has ever denied that it was British policy in Ireland that caused one million deaths and a half century of emigration.
Keith wants us to admit that the majority of historians have, when those you mentioned have said the opposite - Mokyr takes it further by blaming the agrarian policy fostered by Britain from the beginning of the 19th century was partly to blame for the effects of the Famine in the first place.
The rest of those names have all singled out British policy as blame for the aftermath.
Stop flinging names about - they've been argued over ad-nausem.
You want to show us where any of them have denied any of the points I have made - give us your quotes.
You want to show us how those points were not directly responsible for so many deaths and so many forced emigrations - feel free.
Keith has slithered his way from claiming that British policy played no part in the Famine to his present position of saying there is a dispute among historians as to whether it did.
He has done this having stated openly that he has never read a book on the subject and feels he doesn't need to - pretty good trick, don'cha think.
In the process he has defended a major player in spreading a racist picture of the Irish as "not being racist".
He has told us that Irish and Irish American education has turned out generations of hate-filled zombies who wrongly blame Britain for the Famine - two entire national/cultural groups in one posting - now there's economy for you.
Anyway - what the **** am I wasting my time debating how I should respond to someone whose behavior has now gone viral; it really is none of your business - particularly as you are one of our stars in demanding answers and refusing to respond to questions.
Put your case or mind your own business - simple as that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 10:30 AM

None of whom deny British culpability for the outcome of the Famine due to their policy - follow the link.
They may disagree whether Britain carried out a deliberate policy of genocide - none of them, and no other historian in to my knowledge, has ever denied that it was British policy in Ireland that caused one million deaths and a half century of emigration.
Keith wants us to admit that the majority of historians have, when those you mentioned have said the opposite - Mokyr takes it further by blaming the agrarian policy fostered by Britain from the beginning of the 19th century was partly to blame for the effects of the Famine in the first place.
The rest of those names have all singled out British policy as blame for the aftermath.
Stop flinging names about - they've been argued over ad-nausem.
You want to show us where any of them have denied any of the points I have made - give us your quotes.
You want to show us how those points were not directly responsible for so many deaths and so many forced emigrations - feel free.
Keith has slithered his way from claiming that British policy played no part in the Famine to his present position of saying there is a dispute among historians as to whether it did.
He has done this having stated openly that he has never read a book on the subject and feels he doesn't need to - pretty good trick, don'cha think.
In the process he has defended a major player in spreading a racist picture of the Irish as "not being racist".
He has told us that Irish and Irish American education has turned out generations of hate-filled zombies who wrongly blame Britain for the Famine - two entire national/cultural groups in one posting - now there's economy for you.
Anyway - what the **** am I wasting my time debating how I should respond to someone whose behavior has now gone viral; it really is none of your business - particularly as you are one of our stars in demanding answers and refusing to respond to questions.
Put your case or mind your own business - simple as that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 10:06 AM

Jim,


"" the Great Famine today is viewed by a number of historical academics as a form of either direct or indirect genocide."

No evidence whatsoever to support that contention, according to Mokyr, Nielsen, O'Rourke, Kennedy, Foster, Ó Gráda and a host of others."




So, either refute this statement, or acknowledge that HISTORIANS do not agree with your opinion. 6 SPECIFIC names- show that they DO see evidence of your claim, and then you can win the argument for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 10:04 AM

Keith has adopted the 'fainites' policy of bombarding with the same statement until we agree with him

That is because you ridiculed and derided me for saying it, but I knew it to be true.

Now you can no longer deny that it is true and you look really silly.
Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 09:54 AM

"Although the potato crop failed, the country was still producing and exporting more than enough grain crops to feed the population."

SEZ WHO? Too many conflicting stories, but the bulk of the evidence illustrates that more food was imported into Ireland than was ever exported from it during this period.

"Records show during the period Ireland was exporting approximately thirty to fifty shiploads per day of food produce"

WHAT RECORDS? Those that do exist can best be described as inadequate and inconclusive

"land acquisition"

WHAT LAND ACQUISITION? Who was it purchased by? Who was it purchased from? Where did the money come from? There was little to no money in Ireland as the landowners were already up to their ears in debt and everything they possessed was mortgaged to the hilt - That was why it was so important for them to be able to sell their crops, to get money so that taxes could be paid in order to fund relief work.

" the Great Famine today is viewed by a number of historical academics as a form of either direct or indirect genocide."

No evidence whatsoever to support that contention, according to Mokyr, Nielsen, O'Rourke, Kennedy, Foster, Ó Gráda and a host of others. Most of those who claim genocide all base their arguments on one book by John Mitchel written while he was in America in 1861. As he had left Ireland in 1848 and remained a prisoner in either Bermuda and Tasmania until 1853, then stayed in America until he wrote the book how exactly would it have been possible for him to study any records? Impossible if you ask me. Christine Kinealy is very selective when it comes to digging for information.

Most sensible statement that I have unearthed so far has been:

"It is no doubt premature to proclaim the end of the "revisionist/anti-revisionist" conflict on the Famine, though it remains doubtful whether it can serve any useful future purpose." - Canon John O'Rourke

The most sensible comment still remains that of mg stated in her post earlier on in the thread.

What little Irish blood I have in me came from Ireland during the Famine and settled in Glasgow where they prospered and thrived. The Famine stories coming from my Mother's side of the family comes from two different Famines the one in Ireland and the one that affected Scotland. Do I really care about either? No of course I don't, they are simply events that happened a long time ago, and neither have affected me in the slightest. Should I don sackcloth and ashes and run round apologising on behalf of anyone for those events or how they were handled? Nope, all water under the bridge, "all debts paid with the first turn of the screw" - Old sailors saying, and by the way Christmas, if it is sympathy that you are looking for you will find it located somewhere between Shit and Syphilis in the Dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 09:50 AM

"There has been a case that that Great Britain made every effort that was possible AT THE TIME to deal with the famine as best as they could. "
None of which makes the slightest difference to the way the British Government actually behaved - which no historian has ever denied and which Keith and his thuggish mate will not even refer to.
Try this for size
(03 Apr 14 - 04:13 AM)
Keith has adopted the 'fainites' policy of bombarding with the same statement until we agree with him - twisting our arms up our back until we call 'fainites'
You want to be part of this - you respond to the points - Keith won't
You want to produce a historian who has denied any of those points, do so
As far as I am concerned Keith has one his 'Old Man of the Sea' act for long enough - he can find someone else to carry him across the water.
Now - join in or mind your own business.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 09:50 AM

"There has been a case that that Great Britain made every effort that was possible AT THE TIME to deal with the famine as best as they could. "
None of which makes the slightest difference to the way the British Government actually behaved - which no historian has ever denied and which Keith and his thuggish mate will not even refer to.
Try this for size
(03 Apr 14 - 04:13 AM)
Keith has adopted the 'fainites' policy of bombarding with the same statement until we agree with him - twisting our arms up our back until we call 'fainites'
You want to be part of this - you respond to the points - Keith won't
You want to produce a historian who has denied any of those points, do so
As far as I am concerned Keith has one his 'Old Man of the Sea' act for long enough - he can find someone else to carry him across the water.
Now - join in or mind your own business.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 08:34 AM

Your previously quoted statement says that your last post is not a representation of your belief.


Keith states that HISTORIAN differ on who is to blame for the Famine.

There has been a case that that Great Britain made every effort that was possible AT THE TIME to deal with the famine as best as they could.

You have attempted to say they could have done more.

Please state what else could have done, and LISTEN to what others present about why that may or may not have been possible. You may not agree, but you should listen and PRESENT THE REASONS YOU THINK OTHERWISE. Otherwise, stop posting how horrible the famine was- WE ALL AGREE it was bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 08:25 AM

"Why, when you have no interest in other's opinions "
Yes I do - if I wanted Daleks I'll watch Dr Who
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 07:58 AM

Why, when you have no interest in other's opinions or any evidence that they MAY provide if it conflicts with what you want to believe, and force the rest of us to believe?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 07:56 AM

"The truth is out!!"
Feel free to take part Bruceie, otherwise, mind your own business
You may have started this thread, for which I am grateful, but unless you have anything further to add on the subject, please allow those of us who have to get on with it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 07:16 AM

The truth is out!!


"From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 06:09 AM
…
I don't give a monkey's **** what your case is, neither does anybody else "






Sure is nice to see an open-minded, fair discussion of the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 07:12 AM

Nobody cares anymore Keith
If you continue with this I'll report you for stalking
Get help
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 07:10 AM

Jim,
By the way - just been revisiting the old thread you kindly linked us to and am checking out and making a list of your statements there tpoo compare them with your claim of what you have "only been interested in - which is not defending Britain"

How is it going?
Nothing so far?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 06:52 AM

Jim, do you deny that revisionist historians exist, or that they "deny culpability" and "rehabilitate" the British Government (Kinealy)?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 06:49 AM

There - you've got your 500 - now piss off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 06:15 AM

FACT, revisionism is a large school of famine historians.
The largest in fact.
Deny that fact Jim?


Jim, do you deny that revisionist historians exist, or that they "deny culpability" and "rehabilitate" the British Government (Kinealy)?

Answer please.
If you do not deny it, and do not lie about it again, I will indeed stop posting on this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 06:09 AM

"Jim, my only case is that culpability"
The Facts man - the facts.
I don't give a monkey's **** what your case is, neither does anybody else
You are a Trollie little turd
Piss off, as you promised and stao cyberstalking
You too, have a good day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 06:09 AM

"Jim, my only case is that culpability"
The Facts man - the facts.
I don't give a monkey's **** what your case is, neither does anybody else
You are a Trollie little turd
Piss off, as you promised and stao cyberstalking
You too, have a good day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 06:06 AM

STARVATION AMONG PLENTY
Although the potato crop failed, the country was still producing and exporting more than enough grain crops to feed the population. Records show during the period Ireland was exporting approximately thirty to fifty shiploads per day of food produce. As a consequence of these exports and a number of other factors such as land acquisition, absentee landlords and the effect of the 1690 penal laws, the Great Famine today is viewed by a number of historical academics as a form of either direct or indirect genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 06:02 AM

Jim, my only case is that culpability is disputed by historians.
I only need one example for that but there are many more out there.
You just never read them.
Neither do I, but Kinealy affirms that they are the majority.

Jim, do you deny that revisionist historians exist, or that they "deny" culpability and "rehabilitate" the British Government (Kinealy)?

(NOT rhetorical questions Jim. Answer please.)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 05:51 AM

SOUPERISM was a phenomenon of the Irish Potato Famine. Protestant Bible societies set up schools in which starving children were fed, on the condition of receiving Protestant based religious instruction at the same time. Its practitioners were reviled by the Catholic families who had to choose between their faith and starvation. People who converted for food were known as soupers, a derogatory epithet that continued to be applied and featured in the press well into the 1870s. In the words of their peers: they "took the soup".
One example of souperism was the Reverend Edward Nagle, who instituted 34 schools where religious instruction and meals were provided. However, souperism was rarely that simple, and not all non-Catholics made being subject to proselytisation a condition of food aid. Several Anglicans, including the Anglican Archbishop of Dublin, Richard Whately, decried the practice; many Anglicans set up soup kitchens that did no proselytising; and the Quakers, whose soup kitchens were concerned solely with charitable work, were never associated with the practice (which causes them to be held in high regard in Ireland even today, with many Irish remembering the Quakers with the remark "They fed us in the famine.").
Soupers were frequently ostracised by their own community, and were strongly denounced from the pulpit by the Catholic priesthood. On occasion, soupers had to be protected by British soldiers from other Catholics.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 05:39 AM

Those are the documented facts - all available from those masses f information you have been given and full accepted by all, from your "definitive" Mrs Woodham Smith to Christine Kenealy and Robert Neilson - and everone in between.
Denial and evasion just doesn't hack it any more.
Deal with them all or shuffle back to your cave, you thuggish moron - oh, and have a good day.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 05:39 AM

Those are the documented facts - all available from those masses f information you have been given and full accepted by all, from your "definitive" Mrs Woodham Smith to Christine Kenealy and Robert Neilson - and everone in between.
Denial and evasion just doesn't hack it any more.
Deal with them all or shuffle back to your cave, you thuggish moron - oh, and have a good day.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 05:09 AM

Awwww Christmas!!!

"answer the points or shamble your way into the sunset dragging your knuckles along the ground as you go"

What were your objections to the depictions in those "Punch Cartoons" again? What were descriptions in the Times articles that you were so shocked and horrified at? Aye Carroll you are a true disciple of supremacist, racist and pro-slavery John Mitchel from head to toe.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 05:04 AM

1: " Ireland's rural economy was developed from the beginning of the 19th century to serve the British Empire."

Complete and utter balderdash, the problem with Ireland that jumped up and bit it on the arse in the 19th Century was that it had not developed at all: no agricultural revolution, no agrarian reformers and apart from a few exceptions in the North no industrial revolution or development. But just to tag along with this idiotic premise pray tell who it was that orchestrated the development of this rural economy and what changes were introduced. Precisely how did it "serve" the British Empire?

2: The change over from Peel's Tory Government to Russell's Whig one took place on the 30th June 1846. You say that as part and parcel of this changeover Peel's relief scheme was dismantled. Taking into account the date of the changeover, could you then explain the following anomaly?

The figures for grain exports from and imports into Ireland between 1844 and 1848 (Expressed in thousands of tons) – Cormac Ó Gráda:

1844 Peel's Government - Exported 424 - Imported 30 - Non-famine year Corn Laws in place
1845 Peel's Government - Exported 513 - Imported 28 - Famine struck late in year, Corn Laws in place
1846 50% Peel/ 50% Russell - Exported 284 - Imported 197 - First full year of the famine Corn Laws repealed
1847 Russell's Government - Exported 146 - Imported 889 - Black '47 Out of a population of some 7 million people Russell's Government is feeding 3 million.
1848 Russell's Government - Exported 314 - Imported 439

3: Any substantive proof that Trevelyan was a religious maniac – or is that just something that you have made up?

4: Question in the application of commonsense for you Christmas:
You are starving, your wife is starving and your children are starving – Somebody comes up to you and says, "Change your religion and we'll give you a bowl of soup". Assuming that your own life and the lives of your wife and children are important to you what is to stop you from changing your religion, keeping the family alive then when circumstances change renounce your new religion and revert to the old one?

5: " Throughout all this, enough food is being shipped out of Ireland to feed the population several times over."
MYTH of course you could try proving it, but Cormac Ó Gráda's figures contradict your statement. But again to go along with what you claim how do you get that food to those who need it before it rots? How is it paid for? Where does next seasons crop come from?

6: " The evictions continued for another half century, passing the arable Irish lands into the hands of absentee landlords"
So who actually owned the land at the time Christmas, the Cottiers or the Landlords? Rhetorical question the land belonged to the Landlord so there was no question of transferring ("passing") land into anybody's hands. By the way Christmas between 1845 and 1851 as people left the land allowing it to be farmed more efficiently did the numbers dying because of the famine increase or decrease? Did Ireland subsequently ever suffer another Famine? (I know there were periods of food shortages but was there ever another Famine?).

7: Ireland has been an independent country now for about 90 years, throughout that time Ireland and Ireland alone has been responsible for its own economic, commercial, industrial and agrarian development. If successive Irish Governments could not and cannot provide sufficient employment opportunities for its citizens how on earth can that be the fault of the British Government – you PRAT.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 04:17 AM

That goes for you Terpsichore - done watching you waltz your thuggish way around the facts - answer the points or shamble your way into the sunset dragging your knuckles along the ground as you go
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 04:13 AM

Right - here it is
Your "majority of historians" amounts to one single quote from an obscure journal (Freeman) by an obscure historian - that is all you have managed to come up with - that's that put to bed.
This is the Famine I understand it
Ireland's rural economy was developed from the beginning of the 19th century to serve the British Empire.
Along comes the potato blight to upset the potato cart.
The Peel Government, in a mixture of compassion and a recognition of duty to its subjects, sets up an inadequate scheme to offset some of the effects of the developing Famine.
The feeble scheme has hardly had time to take effect when Peel is replaced by Lord Russell.
Sir Charles Trevelyan, a religious maniac put in charge of Famine relief, who believes the the blight is God's punishment for Irish slothfulness and misdeeds, and that it provides Britain with an opportunity to solve 'The Irish problem', tells the Famine Relief Commissioners that "the landlords and other ratepayers are the parties who are both legally and morally answerable for affording due relief to the destitute poor", and sets about dismantling Peel's relief scheme.
He locks the grain warehouses and places them under armed guard, instructing that "relief should not be given but should be sold to the starving Irish - "Famine relief should not be allowed to interfere in any way with the free market".
At the height of the worst year of the Famine. 'Black '47', Trevelyan closes the overworked, understaffed, full to the gunnels workhouses, leaving a few in the worst hit areas to survive under charities run by Charity organisations such as the Quakers.
Some of these, run by Protestants adopt a policy of 'soupism' - simple put, "change your religion and we'll give you a bowl of soup".
Throughout all this, enough food is being shipped out of Ireland to feed the population several times over.
Famine relief ships, now in the hands of 'the free market', are subjected to deliberate delays in order to raise the market price of Charity bought grain; some ships crossed and re-crossed The Irish Sea up to four times before they were unloaded.
Nothing whatever was done to prevent this, presumably in line with Trevelyan's instructions that "nothing should be allowed to interfere in any way with the free market"
The Russell Government propose sending cargoes of food to offset the worst effects of the accelerating Famine; Trevelyan objects and the proposal is abandoned.   
In 'Black '47', evictions of bankrupt farmers begin in earnest; the evictions are backed by armed military force and teams of workmen whose job it is to demolish the former homes of those evicted; in some of the worst hit areas, like Skibbereen, West Cork, the technique was to set the thatched roofs ablaze and then demolish the smouldering shells with battering rams.
The starving poor are left to die on the side of the roads, some of the luck ones manage to dig holes in the earth like animals in attempts to survive the elements.
In 1846 a number of seagoing vessels were hastily assembled in order to ship out Famine refugees who had been given only two alternatives, 'emigrate or die', some of these vessels had previously used to ship slaves - in one year alone, 1847, 125,000 died en-rout to there 'chosen' new homes.
The evictions continued for another half century, passing the arable Irish lands into the hands of absentee landlords, which caused long-term agrarian unrest, land wars, and attempted revolution.
Emigration has become a permanent feature of Irish life right up to the present day; in the forty years of my association with Ireland I do not recall having met a single individual whose family has not been touched by Emigration - Britain's great legacy to Ireland.
There Keith - you want to be taken seriously, how about them apples, or should I say potatoes?
No more "historian" cobblers, your cover has been blown on that one - you have the unchallenged facts on the Famine - challenge them or go away, as promiAsed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:48 AM

pdq, thanks for pointing out those differences for me, greatly appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:39 AM

Nielsen Christmas? Could that be this Robert Nielsen, the historian? The same Robert Nielsen who stated the following:

1: " Some people claim that the Great Famine was an act of genocide committed by the British Empire against the Irish people. This theory is most popular among Irish-Americans (who strangely enough are more nationalist than people from Ireland) and on the internet, though it has little if any credence in Ireland."

2: " The most controversial issue in Anglo-Irish affairs is the allegation that food was exported during the Famine. This was first claimed by Irish nationalists as a reason to end British rule and the Famine certainly put an end to the idea that Ireland would be a part of the United Kingdom for good. However, it is extraordinarily difficult to prove the claim true or false, and to my knowledge no one has. Records of exports simply weren't kept or have since been lost."

Cormac Ó Gráda's book "The Great Irish Famine" gives figures covering 1844 to 1848. Which demonstrates the effects that the repeal of the Corn Laws early in 1846 on the import of food into Ireland in 1846, 1847 and 1848 (The worst years of the famine).

Canon John O'Rourke reached the following conclusion in his book on the Famine:

"It is no doubt premature to proclaim the end of the "revisionist/anti-revisionist" conflict on the Famine, though it remains doubtful whether it can serve any useful future purpose. Many key facts are clear: the Irish Famine was real, not artificial, food was extremely scarce; it could not have been solved by closing the ports; charges of genocide cannot be sustained. However it is undoubtedly the case that the British response was inadequate and was unduly influenced both by domestic political concerns such as repeal of the corn laws and by Providentialism. On the other hand, it is equally clear that the Irish political response was also dictated by matters such as Repeal of the Union and the power struggle between O'Connell and Young Ireland. Mitchel's subsequent savage indictment of British government Famine policy conceals the fact that he and his colleagues offered no workable alternative at the time. ALL, including the radical land theorist James Fintan Lalor looked to the Irish landlord class to solve the Famine crisis; AT LEAST THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT WAS LESS NAÏVE."


3: " The crucial question in whether or not it is genocide comes down to intent. Did the English government intend to destroy the Irish people? The answer is no. They were heartlessly negligent, but neglect is not the same as murder. There was never any plan to wipe out the Irish NOR ANY ACTIONS THAT COULD BE VIEWED AS SUCH. The government didn't directly kill anyone nor did they deliberatively destroy any food. In fact the relief aid, pathetic as it was, does damage the genocide argument. After all, why would the government set up soup kitchens if it wanted the Irish to die?"

4: " There never was intent to destroy the Irish. Had the government really wanted to exterminate the Irish, they would have done more than let natural disasters run their course. The claims by Coogan and others, while passionate, simply do not have enough evidence to support themselves."

On Tim Pat Coogan's Book "The Famine Plot" he says this:

" It is worth pointing out that historians have criticised Coogan's book. Having read it, I must agree that it lacks thoroughness and fails to back up its claim that the Famine was genocide. LITTLE EVIDENCE IS GIVEN AND THERE ARE SURPRISINGLY FEW SOURCES USED."

Liked this as an example of warped logic that totally misrepresents:

" Nationalists have avoided the question altogether"

So John Mitchel did not state that the Famine was Britain's fault? Give me one single writer on the subject of the Famine writing from a "Nationalist" viewpoint who does not state exactly the same thing (Incidentally normally using and quoting Mitchel as their "definitive" source {Like Tim Pat Coogan}).

The problem of those who espouse the "nationalist" cause from across the pond is that they could not give a stuff about whether or not their writings would "give comfort to dissident republicans". Irish-Americans after all had no qualms at all about donating money for guns and explosives, until of course they felt what being on the receiving end of indiscriminate terrorist attacks felt like, only then did they want international co-operation and action taken to prevent countries acting as state sponsors of terrorism (Afghanistan was attacked on that premise).

Viewing Cartoons and articles of the time through 21st century eyes and applying our mores and political correctness to them is idiotic. Those views of racial supremacy were prevalent at the time in many countries around the world and across a whole raft of issues and they were not the sole preserve of the British establishment, John Mitchel (A self-declared believer in his racial superiority) fully approved of slavery irrespective of colour, the British establishment had at least been committed to stamping out the practice of slavery and the slave trade for 50 years when Mitchel opened up "The Southern Citizen" in 1857. John Mitchel is the man who gave birth to the myth that Britain "caused" the Famine, he stated that for political reasons to further his own political agenda and just because he said it does not necessarily make it true, or make it a fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:21 AM

Greg, you call me "fuckwit" yet again for saying culpability is disputed.

Does that mean you also do not believe there is any such thing as revisionist historians who "deny" culpability and "rehabilitate" the British Government (kinealy)

Really?
Even when the glaring truth of it is held in front of your silly nose, all you can do is close your eyes and say "fuckwit fuckwit fuckwit fuckwit.................................


What doe that make you Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 02:19 AM

Kinealy is not a revisionist herself, but acknowledges they are the majority view.
Why do you disbelieve her.
My case is just that culpability is disputed, and it is.

Greg, I said I would go when the fact of the dispute was accepted.
Jim pretended to accept it to shut me up.

"You can't seriously believe that my posting agreeing with you was anything more than an obviously ironic effort to shut you up?"

I took him at his word, hoping he was being honest for once.
He said that made me a "simpleton."
An honest simpleton at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 04:49 PM

By the way - just been revisiting the old thread you kindly linked us to and am checking out and making a list of your statements there tpoo compare them with your claim of what you have "only been interested in - which is not defending Britain"
Perhaps you would care to do the same in preparation.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 04:14 PM

Silly - wot me!
Though I do admit you have a huge support of one here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 04:11 PM

"However, given the scale of the problem and the acute nature of the crisis once the harvest had failed for a second time in 1846, there was little they could do."
an out-of context selection - missing out the bits of closed warehouses, closed workhouses, continuance of exporting foods, closure of Famine relief schemes - all covered in her writings - summed up thus:
"The workhouse study for her doctorate led to an interest in the Famine. Even while working as an administrator for an American firm in Dublin and later for an organization based in the public records office in Belfast, she continued to dig into Famine records in her spare time. In the late 1980s when "tourists were not really going to Belfast, and there was high unemployment," she says, "I consciously included the city and the
Praised – and vilified – for her writing on the Famine, Kinealy says much of the criticism leveled at her was ideologically based and did not focus on the actual research. What she said about the Famine shook up some accepted interpretations. In her award-winning This Great Calamity: The Irish Famine 1845-52 (1994), in A Death-Dealing Famine: The Great Hunger in Ireland (1997), and in many other publications, she offered concrete evidence that the British government was fully aware of the gravity of the tragedy unfolding in Ireland during the potato blight, but, for reasons of economic and social philosophy, deliberately chose to limit its response.
"My conclusions were not what I expected," she says. "I never imagined I would find that the British knew what was going on. But my interpretation is what my sources have led me to." "
TRUTH AT LAST - KINEALY SAYS "IT WOS BRITAIN WOT DUNNIT"
There you go - horses mouth - now will you piss off, as promised?
Enough of this - you say you will not debate history
You refuse to respond to facts and continue to hide behind invented historical 'facts'
You will not debate the facts of the Famine.
I suggest you go away and come back when you are prepared to debate history on a thread on a historical subject.
Out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 03:13 PM

By the way, fuckwit, you've said you were gone half a dozen times, yet here you are again.

And now, a musical interlude!

Pirates of Penzance, Gilbert & Sullivan:

GENERAL. Away! away! . .
POLICE. (Without moving.) Yes, yes, we go!
GENERAL. These pirates slay.
POLICE. Yes, yes, we go.
GENERAL. Then do not stay.
POLICE. We go, we go.
GENERAL. Then why all this delay?
POLICE. All right! We go, we go;
Yes, forward on the foe! Ho! ho! ho! ho!
We go, we go, we go! _ Tarantara-ra-ra !
GENERAL. Then forward on the foe!
ALL. Yes! forward !
POLICE. Yes! forward!
GENERAL. Yes! but you don't go!
POLICE. We go, we go, we go !
ALL. At last they really go ! Tarantara-ra-ra!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 02:51 PM

The ones you have quoted have specifically blamed Te British policy for the effects of Famine

Not true.
"However, given the scale of the problem and the acute nature of the crisis once the harvest had failed for a second time in 1846, there was little they could do."

Kinealy says that most historians do not ascribe blame even though she does.

There is a dispute, she is part of it, and that is my whole case.

You are wrong to deny it, and you have made yourself look silly over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 02:34 PM

"Teribus is an amazing historian and he does a great service to Mudcat by persisting, against vile attacks, to post Truth, not propaganda,"
Teribus is a loutish thug who attacks dead people
Whenever his arguments are dismantled, he pisses of for a few days to find some more ; then he brings them back to be torn to pieces once more
Then, thinking we've all forgotten, he brings the same ones back again, as he has just done here - absolutely brilliant!
He's an ill-brought-up lout who hasn't grasped his position at the lower end of the food-chain - no more
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 02:01 PM

Teribus is an amazing historian and he does a great service to Mudcat by persisting, against vile attacks, to post Truth, not propaganda,

I must, however, take issue with one of his points.

Thanks to my one course in epidemiology, I can say with certainty that typhus, cholera and typhoid fever are all quite distinct diseases.


cholera - Vibrio cholerae

typhus - part of a group of similar diseases caused by Rickettsia

typhoid fever - sometimes called typhoid — Salmonella enterica


All are bacterial and all are considederd filth diseases, often from poor sewage treatement, unclean living conditions or poor personal hygiene.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 01:28 PM

More good news from the Famine front
Jim Carroll

On May 15 there was much less, and on the 13th Coffin had written urging that opening should be postponed until further supplies had come in.14
Nevertheless, the opening took place. Routh directed Coffin to restrict issues as far as possible, to make no 'regular supply daily or monthly', to consider each issue as 'single in itself and dependent on the merits and truth of each separate representation', and to instruct all officers to 'distinguish between the usual scarcity of the season and the present extraordinary dearth'.
A rush followed; at about id. a pound the Government Indian corn was by far the cheapest food available, and depots everywhere were besieged. At Limerick, Coffin was writing two or three letters a day to relief committees to explain why demands could not be met; 'I am instructed not to promise any specific supply'; 'the aim of the depots is to maintain an equilibrium of prices, they are not intended to feed the whole population and are not adequate to do so'; 'Meal is not sold as the sole or even the principal resource for the period of want. . . .' These and similar letters were received by the com¬mittees throughout Ireland with angry indignation. 'They univer¬sally thought,' Coffin told Trevelyan, on June 4, 'all their demands would be filled and they had only to send a carter to the depot with money in his hand as to an ordinary shop.'15
Trevelyan's intentions were very different. Irish relief was to be restricted to a single operation; the government Indian corn, pur-chased at the orders of Sir Robert Peel, was to be placed in depots by the Commissariat, sold to the people—and that was the end. There was to be no replenishment, even if there was a sum of money in hand from sales; once supplies had been disposed of relief was over. In several letters, written with unusual boldness, Routh begged Trevelyan to allow further purchases. The demand on the depots was 'immense', far heavier than anything that had been anticipated, and it was increasing every day; surely the depots should remain open until September. The new potato crop would not provide any food whatsoever for the people before the middle of September at the earliest, while 'lumpers', the huge, coarse potato called the 'horse' potato, on which the people mainly depended,
would not be ready until the end of that month. Trevelyan refused; relief was to be brought to a close; possibly some depots might shut down a little later than others, but issues must shortly cease. By the end of June, 1846, government supplies were all but exhausted; on the 24th of that month, 5,000 bushels of Indian corn were all that remained in Cork and, at that, were unground,16 while in remote districts the people were starving. The revenue cutter, Eliza, making a visit of inspection, on June 22, to the Killeries, a wild district of mountain and deep ocean inlets in the far west, was implored for food by a boat-load of skeletons. The Commissariat officer at West-port, supply centre for the Killeries, had been instructed to send no more meal to the region because the depot was becoming empty.
One man, stated the officer in command, was lying on the bottom of the boat, unable to stand and already half dead, the others, with emaciated faces and prominent, staring eyeballs, were evidently in an advanced state of starvation. The officer reported to Sir James Dombrain, Inspector-General of the Coastguard Service, who had served on relief during the famine of 1839, and Sir James Dombrain, 'very inconveniently', wrote Routh, 'interfered'. He 'prevailed' on an officer at the Westport depot to issue meal, which he gave away free; he also 'prevailed' on the captain of the Government steam¬ship, Rhadamanthus, to take 100 tons of meal, intended for West-port, to the Coastguard Station at the Killeries. 'The Coast Guard with all their zeal and activity are too lavish,' wrote Routh to Trevelyan.17
Almost on the same date Coffin at Limerick wrote Trevelyan an urgent letter. He could not answer for the consequence if the depots were closed. 'Only issues of food,' he declared, 'keep the country peaceful . . . Only for the Government meal thousands would be now dying by the road side.' In a private letter to Routh, Coffin confessed himself bewildered and depressed. Intelligent, well-intentioned and widely experienced though he was, the state of Ireland baffled him. 'I sincerely hope August will see us out of our troubles,' he wrote; '. . . the most anxious and unsatisfactory task I ever undertook, working in the dark... I have often felt I could not go on any longer.'18
Nevertheless, on June 25, Routh received directions to carry out 'the closing measures of our present service'; supplies were to be transferred from less destitute to more destitute districts, demand cut down by raising prices, and the relief scheme wound up.
In a private letter to Routh, Trevelyan attributed the enormous demand on the depots to the low price at which the meal was sold; above all, to the fact that it was sold to persons suffering from distress, normal at the time of year, and not solely to persons whose distress was caused by the potato failure. Indiscriminate sales had 'brought the whole country on the depots, and without denying the existence of real and extensive distress', the numbers were beyond the power of the depots to cope with; they must therefore be closed down as soon as possible.19
Meanwhile, across the Channel, in London, dramatic events were taking place, and a change of Government was imminent.
Repeal of the Corn Laws was proving Peel's downfall. He was regarded with detestation by the Protectionists, who formed a large part of his own Party, and the Whigs, forced into the mortifying position of supporting their chief enemy, who had, they considered, stolen their principal measure, were consumed with vindictive fury. The ingenious mind of Benjamin Disraeli devised a way to bring Peel down. Whigs and Protectionist Tories must combine. Nothing could be done, as far as the Bill to repeal the Corn Laws was con¬cerned, since the Whigs could hardly vote against a measure with which they had been identified; but if the second reading of the Irish Coercion Bill, introduced by Peel in February, was opposed by a combination of Whigs and Protectionist Tories, the defeat of Peel was assured. There were difficulties, since both Lord George Ben-tinck, leader of the Protectionists, and Lord John Russell, the leader of the Whigs, had previously voted in favour of the Irish Coercion Bill; but scruples were overcome 'with boldness and dexterity'.
The momentous night was June 25, and by a curious coincidence, as the debate on Irish Coercion was in progress, messengers entered the House of Commons, returning with the Bill repealing the Corn Laws, which had just received the assent of the Lords. The debate was interrupted while 'Mr. Speaker, amidst profound silence, announced that the Lords had agreed to the . . . Bill... without any amendment'.
A few hours later the House divided on Irish Coercion; Disraeli's scheme succeeded, and Sir Robert Peel fell, defeated by a majority of 73 votes. His resignation was officially announced on June 29, 1846.
The majority which defeated Peel had no connection whatsoever with the real situation in Ireland. Indeed, the apathy of the House
of Commons with regard to Irish affairs was seldom more marked than during the discussions on the Coercion Bill. During the debate on the first reading Mr. Fitzgerald, Member for Tipperary, noted there were 'not half a dozen gentlemen on the benches opposite'; and when the Bill was debated for the second time there were not twenty-five Members present, and the number never rose to more than forty. As was said at the time, the majority which defeated Peel had 'as much to do with Ireland as Kamschatka'.20
The new Whig Government, under Lord John Russell, was more to Trevelyan's taste than Peel's administration. As a government servant he had no politics, but in private life he was a Whig, and his relations with Sir Robert Peel had not been happy. On July 6 he wrote in a private letter to Routh, 'The members of the new Govern¬ment began to come today to the Treasury. I think we shall have much reason to be satisfied with our new masters,' and he added, on the 13th, 'Nothing can be more gratifying to our feelings than the manner in which the new Chancellor of the Exchequer has appre¬ciated our exertions.'21
The new Chancellor of the Exchequer, Charles Wood, who succeeded as Sir Charles Wood, Bt., in December 1846 and was later created first Viscount Halifax, was congenial to Trevelyan. To a solid mind, he united a fixed dislike both of new expenditure and new taxes, and was a firm believer in laissez faire, preferring to let matters take their course and allow problems to be solved by 'natural means'. Head of an ancient Yorkshire family, he united love of liberty with reverence for property, a strong sense of public duty, lack of imagination and stubborn conservatism. Humanitarianism was not among his undoubted virtues. Charles Wood remained in office, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, for six years, and came increasingly under Trevelyan's influence. The two men were alike in outlook, conscientiousness and industry, and Charles Wood brought Trevelyan a further access of power in the administration of Irish relief.
Winding up relief was now pushed on vigorously, and on July 8 Trevelyan rejected a shipload of Indian corn. 'The cargo of the Sorciere is not wanted,' he wrote to Mr. Thomas Baring; 'her owners must dispose of it as they think proper. Mr. Baring sent congratulations 'on the termination of your feeding operations'. But Routh, in Ireland, was depressed. He sincerely hoped that con-gratulations might not prove premature; the pressure on the depots
was still increasing. 'This is a worse month than June,' he wrote.22
Trevelyan, however, had an urgent reason for wishing to get Sir Robert Peel's relief scheme for the 1845 failure cleared up and out of the way. He disagreed with it in several important respects, and during the last few weeks a new and alarming probability had become evident—there were unmistakable signs that the potato was about to fail again.
As early as February 16, 1846, new potatoes had been shown at meetings of the Horticultural Society in London 'in which the disease had manifested itself in a manner not to be mistaken', and on February 20, a question had been asked in the House of Commons. In reply Sir Robert Peel admitted that the potatoes 'exhibited the disease of last autumn', but added that they had been grown from sets of potatoes which were themselves slightly diseased.
Whether blight reappeared or not, however, the outlook for the potato crop was poor. Distributing seed potatoes had proved im-practicable. Immense quantities would have been needed, 'nearly a ton an acre', wrote Trevelyan, and there was neither an organization to buy such huge amounts nor means of conveying and distributing them.23
In April, Mr. E. B. Roche, Member for Cork, had warned the House of Commons that thousands of people were eating seed potatoes as a result of the refusal of the Government to open the depots; and on July 10 Routh reminded Trevelyan, 'You must remember we kept back all issues during the winter making the people consume their potatoes.' Routh estimated that the acreage of potatoes planted in 1846 was about one-third less than in 1845, and since the quantity of potatoes grown was never sufficient, except in a very good year, scarcity in the coming season was inevitable, unless the crop was overwhelmingly good.24
An overwhelmingly good crop, however, was what the people of Ireland persisted in expecting. There was a belief that plenty followed scarcity; the Irish temperament is naturally optimistic, and hope ran high. During May and June the weather was warm and the plants grew strong; on June 10 the Commissariat officer at Clonmel reported that the crop of early potatoes 'looks most abundant. It is generally supposed here that the crops have never looked better at this season'. On the 26th the Freeman's Journal
'most luxuriant'. In the spring there had been 'icy continuous drenching rain', but now the weather was 'most pro¬pitious for growing crops'.
True, on July 3 the Freeman's Journal noted reports of 'a few cases of potato disease', but 'not enough to cause any excitement' and, later, 'exaggeration' was rebuked: 'Every spot and blemish' was being 'magnified' into incipient disease.
Routh, however, who was receiving daily reports from every part of the country, could not be optimistic, and on July 14 he told Trevelyan, 'Disease is reappearing'. Three days later he wrote a letter of solemn warning: 'The reports of the new potato crop are very unfavourable. All letters and sources of information declare disease to be more prevalent this year than last in the early crop.' It was too soon to speak of the main crop, the 'people's crop', but he judged that most of the early crop had already been lost.25
Trevelyan considered these ominous facts as the strongest possible argument for winding up the present relief scheme with all possible haste. If Government relief was still available when the people became aware that another failure had occurred they would expect to be fed. 'The only way to prevent the people from becoming habitually dependent on Government,' he told Routh, on July 17, 'is to bring the operations to a close. The uncertainty about the new crop only makes it more necessary.' In a second letter he wrote, 'Whatever may be done hereafter, these things should be stopped now, or you run the risk of paralysing all private enterprise and having this country on you for an indefinite number of years. The Chancellor of the Exchequer supports this strongly.' Routh received instructions to close the Commissariat depots on August 15.
Had the decision rested with Routh he would not have closed the depots in the face of a second failure. However, he shrank from opposing Trevelyan; the training of a lifetime forbade it, and his admiration for Trevelyan's capacities was great. He tried therefore to convince himself that Trevelyan's policy was just and wise. 'The apprehensions for the new crop make it all the more necessary that we should close our present labours on August 15,' he wrote to some of his senior officers on July 20,'. . . so as to allow the Government time to make up their opinion as to the future, for if we were to remain at our stations and depots until the end of September when the fate of the late crop will be determined, it might be difficult to relieve us, and the authorities might be forced into a continuance of the same measures without a fair opportunity of consideration.'26
Trevelyan next turned his attention to the Board of Works. Of the bodies concerned with relief, the Board of Works had been the least satisfactory; not only Trevelyan, but Routh, declared 'the Board of Works has been a failure'; and on July 20, Trevelyan wrote, privately and peremptorily, to the chairman of the Board, Colonel Jones, telling him that the Board was to be reorganized. The reconstruction had been already drafted in a Treasury minute, and was, wrote Trevelyan firmly, 'as good as settled'.
The minute, dated July 21,1846, directed the closing of all public works, save in exceptional circumstances, on August 15, and also directed the reconstruction of the Board and the augmentation of its staff 'to meet the increased magnitude of the coming exigency'. Proper plans and estimates for works under the recent Acts were to be prepared now, in anticipation of the new emergency, in order that the confusion of the previous season might be avoided.
The Board of Works received the Treasury minute with indig¬nation. It was not possible or reasonable to stop works, without warning, at only three weeks' notice. How could works be left in their present state? Many roads were actually dangerous to the public; was this to be ignored? Local distress was already more urgent than ever, and immense new destitution was known to be impending.27
The Government gave way. An attempt was made to limit ex¬penditure, but in fact what amounted to a general renewal of relief works took place. Trevelyan became exasperated, and so much annoyance was evident in his letters that Routh ventured to remon-strate. The Board of Works, admittedly, had been a failure, but he was not sure, he wrote, on August 3, that the relief committees had been unsatisfactory: 'Pray if you put forth any public documents on the subject speak carefully of the Committees whose assistance you will certainly require next year. Praise if you like, but do not find fault, at least publicly; they are very sensitive and so are all the Irish.' Whatever their shortcomings, the relief committees had collected £98,003 by July 31, 1846, the largest sum ever raised in Ireland for the relief of distress; to this, £65,914 ioj. od. was added by the Lord-Lieutenant out of public funds, as the Government contribution.28
The Government had now accepted the fact that a second failure of the potato was about to occur, and Trevelyan was preparing plans. He was determined to pursue a new policy, a policy which all but reversed that of Peel.
Trevelyan and Charles Wood, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had decided that, in the second failure, there was to be no Govern-ment importation of food from abroad and no interference whatso¬ever with the laws of supply and demand; whatever might be done by starting public works and paying wages, the provision of food for Ireland was to be left entirely to private enterprise and private traders.29
The new policy was received by officials in Ireland with dismay, and on August 4 Routh pressed Trevelyan to import food, now and at once. 'You cannot answer the cry of want by a quotation from political economy. You ought to have 16,000 tons of Indian corn . .. you ought to have half of the supply which you require in the country before Christmas.' How great a quantity would be needed, wrote Routh, would be determined this month, when the main crop began to be dug.30
No preparations, however, even if preparations had been made on double the scale urged, could, in fact, have saved the Irish people from the fate which lay before them. Before the depots could be closed or the public works shut down, almost in a night, every potato in Ireland was lost. 'On the 27th of last month,' wrote Father Mathew to Trevelyan, on August 7, 'I passed from Cork to Dublin and this doomed plant bloomed in all the luxuriance of an abundant harvest. Returning on the third instant I beheld with sorrow one wide waste of putrefying vegetation. In many places the wretched people were seated on the fences of their decaying gardens, wringing their hands and wailing bitterly the destruction that had left them foodless.'
'I shall never forget,' wrote Captain Mann, a Coastguard officer employed in relief service, 'the change in one week in August. On the first occasion, on an official visit of inspection, I had passed over thirty-two miles thickly studded with potato fields in full bloom. The next time the face of the whole country was changed, the stalk remained bright green, but the leaves were all scorched black. It was the work of a night.'31
Sir James Dombrain reported that, in a tour of eight hundred miles during the first week in August, 'all is lost and gone'; the horrible stench from the diseased potatoes was 'perceptible as you travel along the road'; in Cork, on August 3, the stench from rotting potatoes was 'intolerable'. On August 7 Colonel Knox Gore, Lieutenant of County Sligo, found 'from Mullingar to May-nooth every field was black', and on August 8 the steward of the Ventry estates wrote that 'the fields in Kerry look as if fire had passed over them'. Failure was 'universal' in Ulster by August 7, and in Longford, Galway, King's County, Westmeath and Co. Dublin every potato was completely blighted.32
Disaster was universal. The failure of 1845 had, to some degree, been partial; the loss, though serious, had been unequally distri-buted, and the blighted areas 'isolated and detached'. The country, in Routh's words, had been 'like a checker board, black and white next door', and Trevelyan, summing up the first failure, was able to describe it as 'a probationary season of distress'.33
The difficulties experienced in administering Sir Robert Peel's relief scheme were due to the state of Ireland, the poverty, the unemployment, the annual semi-starvation which millions custom¬arily endured. It was these unfortunate wretches, 'the old habitual mass of want in Ireland', the 'fixed tide of distress which never ebbs' who, besieging the relief committee rooms and surging on to the public works in tens of thousands, had broken down the administrative machinery.
In the first failure, with the exception of the potatoes, the harvest had been above the average, and though distress was greatly intensi¬fied, yet thanks to the relief scheme the people in many districts had been better off than usual. Trevelyan, with whom John Ball agreed, wrote, 'In the first failure the people suffered less than in ordinary years, owing to the pains taken to prevent them from feeling want.'34
In the summer of 1846 the situation was very different. The harvest, generally, was poor, and the people were at the end of their resources. Every rag had been already pawned to buy food, every edible scrap had gone. The people were weakened and despairing. 'A stranger,' wrote a sub-inspector of police from County Cork, on August 4, 'would wonder how these wretched beings find food . . . Clothes being in pawn there is nothing to change. They sleep in their rags and have pawned their bedding.'35
The whole face of the country was changed. 'From the Giants Causeway to Cape Clear, from Limerick to Dublin, not a green field is to be seen.'Violent thunderstorms occurred: 'electricity'—lightning—was seen playing over the blackened fields, torrential rain fell, the country round Dublin was flooded, and an 'extra¬ordinary dense fog' was seen by Routh on August 6 to descend over blighted areas, 'cold and damp and close without any wind'.36
It is, declared a leader-writer in The Times on September 2, 'total annihilation'.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 01:06 PM

"Most historians do not blame anyone."
The ones you have quoted have specifically blamed Te British policy for the effects of Famine
You have had Kinealy's quote that it was the policy of closing down warehouses and workhouses and continuing to import food - they were her specific accusations - you refuse to acknowledge that, claiming that bore no blame.
Neilson said the same - you ignored that to.
You claim that Irish and Irish Americans have been brainwashed by Nationalist and Republican historians to make them hate Britain, using the Famine as an excuse -this is a total invention from your own twisted racist mind.
Kinealy points out that since the 1930s the question of blame has never been a feature of either education or history - Nationalists have avoided the question altogether because of Ireland's continuing reliance on Britain as a source for trade and as a bolt hole for continuing Irish Emigration
Historians have avoided the question because, again as you have had pointed out to you and have chosen to ignore, to raise the question of blame could "give comfort to dissident republicans" - no doubt you will ignore this in order to continue with your racist propaganda.
In the last dozen years historians have begun to debate blame; no-one has attempted to absolve Britain of er the facts you have had pointed out to you, but continue to ignore in order to continue with your "Rule Britannia" bit.
Some claim it was deliberate, the rest say it was cynical indifference based on anti- Irish racism - all, without exception, say the casualty figures were unnecessary and blame Britain totally for them - you have had all this but you ignore it because it doesn't suit your racist/nationalist agenda, and you will no doubt continue to do so.
You will also continue to ignore the facts of the famine that have been put before you, because they don't support your racist/nationalist agenda either.
Doesn't matter anyway - I'll continue to put them up just to see if your desperate searches finally do turn up a historian who doesn't blame Britain or in any way conradicts the facts.
The cynical attempts of you neanderthal mate to twist what few facts he is prepared to respond to is stomach-heaving - thou shall not kill semantics, the mark of a true historian.

He appears to be denying that the workhouses weren't closed now - even after there is documented evidence of Trevelyan announcing their closure and rejecting appeals from Government ministers to leave them open
As he has already pointed out - the Quakers and the county Guardians managed to keep a few open, despite receiving insufficient, and in most cases, no assistance whatever from Britain - he knows this as he has pointed it out himself.
The area Carlyle visited was among the worst hit, as can be seen from the description Carlyle gave.
The Government first cut, then abandoned altogether the famine relief programme and left it a responsibility of Charities.
He also issued orders that, with the exception of a few most desperate cases, relief should be sold at market prices.
He's had all this and both he any you have chosen to ignore it
His disgusting comparison with Ethiopia beats the lot.
Ireland was the direct responsibility of Britain - it washed its hands of that responsibility - the massive death toll was a direct consequence of British policy - intended or otherwise.
What makes the Irish Famine unique is that the British Government abandoned the Irish people with its 'Emigrate or die' policy - this has been stated by Irish historians as the major cause of the holocaust which took place, deliberately or though totally racist inspired indifference
Pair of moronic holocaust deniers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 09:05 AM

Jim,
The historians you have quoted point out that they have not discussed blame - your own links contain that fact.
The "revisionists" you refer to are precisely those who have avoided blaming anyone -

You are finally getting it Jim.
Most historians do not blame anyone.
We agree at last.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 08:56 AM

More pointless, massive, self-contradictory, unattributed, cut'n'pastes then Christmas? Pity that you couldn't master the art of presenting them just a little bit better.

No such commandment by the way as - "Thou shalt not kill". The correct translation of that commandment is - "Thou shalt not do murder" - The former would prohibit and deny all, the essential and basic right of every living creature on this earth that of self-defence.

1666 eh funny that after that extended, and hardly harmonious, period of Cromwell's rule throughout the British Isles all the farmers and land-owners in Ireland suddenly have to be viewed as being Irish because of aid they sent to London (All those fat cattle). Yet when it comes to the Famine all the evil land owners and farmers in Ireland are English. By the bye Christmas there is a very good reason why aid was sent from Ireland to London in 1666, but I doubt that you would ever discover it, or ever own up to the reason for it.

"Carlyle first visited Ireland for four days in 1846, …………… [then again] ……….. made a comprehensive tour of Ireland in 1849 during which he visited a Westport workhouse [Along with its subsidiary workhouses and outdoor relief].

I thought you said that these had all been closed down Christmas??

Soup kitchens?? They'd been shut down too hadn't they? Yet during Black '47 and onwards until the famine was over they kept 3 million alive, hardly the deliberate act of genocide eh?

"The Poor Law Extension Act (1847) was the spawn of two conflicting ideological parents: one maintained that Irish property should pay for Irish poverty; die other that, for both ideological and economic reasons, relief should not be given outside the workhouse walls."

You say that Trevelyan pushed this through and strictly adhered to it yet as Carlyle found in 1849 those receiving aid amounted to 200,000 inside workhouses and "outdoor relief" was being given to a further 800,000 - so much for relief not being given outside workhouse walls.

Article 2 of the UN Convention on Genocide 1948 - has what relevance in discussing the events of one hundred years before? - Rhetorical question Christmas - IT HAS NONE.

Shorter Oxford Dictionary definition of Genocide = "The (attempted) deliberate and systematic extermination of an ethnic or national group".

The policies adopted by the two British Governments in power between 1845 and 1851 could be described in many ways - "deliberate" and "systematic" - would not top the list of adjectives used to describe them.

Neither Government did anything to prevent extra food from being imported to Ireland. The 1815 Corn Laws were repealed to specifically allow this. Here by the way are the figures for grain exports from and imports into Ireland between 1844 and 1848 (Expressed in thousands of tons):

1844 - Exported 424 - Imported 30 - Non-famine year Corn Laws in place
1845 - Exported 513 - Imported 28 - Famine struck late in year, Corn Laws in place
1846 - Exported 284 - Imported 197 - First full year of the famine Corn Laws repealed
1847 - Exported 146 - Imported 889 - Black '47 Corn Laws repealed
1848 - Exported 314 - Imported 439

In the Highlands and Western isles of Scotland where the Famine struck just as hard as it did in the West of Ireland and lasted for a longer period (Until 1857), Scotland received only one-sixth of the relief given to Ireland.

The cause and nature of the blight was not understood at the time and an effective fungicide capable of combating the blight was not discovered until 1882. At the time in question there were no cures for common relapsing fevers, typhus or cholera, if Victoria's husband Prince Albert and the King and the heir to the throne of Portugal could die from contracting typhoid then what chance did anyone else have?

Purely a matter of perception in the Irish mind, particularly in the mind of Irish Americans, but what Keith states is true the point with regard to British Policy amounting to deliberate Genocide IS DISPUTED among historians of all shades who have studied the subject. Studies and works by modern historians have resulted in great doubt being cast on the conclusions reached in earlier works such as Cecil Woodham-Smith's "The Great Hunger" (Which Christmas I still think is a very good book).

The two Governments in power in Great Britain in the period 1845 to 1851 did more in terms of relief efforts and aid programmes than any other Government of any other country affected in Europe, yet you do not hear accusations of genocide leveled in any of the German States, in Russia, the Netherlands, France, Denmark or Norway. Within the British Isles themselves there have been no accusations of genocide voiced by the Scots who suffered a famine no less severe and more prolonged than the Irish. Odd isn't it that those historians asked to study the period were asked to do so just prior to the 150 anniversary of Black '47 and they were all Americans (Couldn't possibly have anything to do with marketing could it?).

In 1984 famine struck in Ethiopia it affected 8 million people, forcibly displaced millions and killed ~1 million (Any parallels in terms of scale?). In 1845 not a single Government in the world could have coped with what happened in Ireland. In 1985 not even a well co-ordinated effort by a combination of the richest countries in the world aided by every modern means of communication, transport, distribution, and with unlimited medical and financial resources managed to cope with what was unfolding in Ethiopia - was that a case of genocide on their part? The austerity measures recently forced upon the Irish Government by the IMF and the EU Commissioners that caused widespread unemployment particularly among the youth of Ireland prompting them to move abroad in an effort to find work - was that "ethnic cleansing" was that "genocide"?

Anyone studying the period and the subject objectively will view all the data and not just the bits that suit any preconceived ideas. They will not witter on about workhouse closures and ignore the fact that there were 30% more workhouses in Ireland in 1851 than there were in 1845. They will not parrot complete and utter crap about food exports and ignore the food imports that kept over 3 million Irish men, women and children alive in the worst year of the famine. They will not blithely dismiss as irrelevant and unimportant the complexities of the situation as it constantly evolved or difficulties that had to be overcome in terms of communications, planning and logistics.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 08:26 AM

"The nationalists have always blamed Britain."
The historians you have quoted point out that they have not discussed blame - your own links contain that fact.
The "revisionists" you refer to are precisely those who have avoided blaming anyone - see Kinealy's lecture on "Revisionism" - you have had it for long enough - her whole case has been this fact and yur case has been a total distortion of hers - which is, in fact, that the question of blame has been deliberately avoided so as not to "give comfort to the current nationalists".
You have built your entire case on a deliberate distortion of what she has to say.
This is how Kinealy describes Revisionism:
" A key objective of Irish revisionism was to exorcise the ghost of nationalism from historical discourse and to replace it with historical narratives that persistently played down the separateness and the trauma, and derided the heroes and villains of Irish history. However, this declared determination of revisionism to destroy the 'myths and untruths' of populist historical consciousness has also limited the ability of revisionists to construct an alternative view of Irish history. Also, as Seamus Deane, the literary critic and poet has observed, in Ireland, there exists 'the felt need for mythologies, heroic lineages and dreams of continuity'. Such myths and dreams need to be explained and deconstructed, not denied, destroyed or omitted, to suit a present convenience"
Teribus is a Neanderthal thug who appears to have shuffled back to his cave; he, like you, has refused to address any of the points of Government policy on The Famine - please cite him as an authoritative historian - that really will make my day.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 07:51 AM

Discussion on blame for the famine has only taken place in the last dozen years,

Not true Jim.
The nationalists have always blamed Britain.
That is why "revisionists" are called "revisionists."

The revisionists challenged the old myths and their view has been dominant for almost ninety years.

All your pages of text are just a minority view, and a little balance was needed.

If you want to argue History, Teribus is your man and I hope you have learnt from him.
I just point out that culpability is disputed, and it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 07:24 AM

Neilson, who you also produced as a character witness for British behavior during the Famine, has said exactly the same thing, btw.
It seems your claimed "majority" has not just disappeared, but has imploded - gone in a puff of smoke - just like you wised Mokyr would Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 06:26 AM

"Thirdly, the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts. Moreover, both the landlords and the British government have been rehabilitated;"
" Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s."
Precisely
Discussion on blame for the famine has only taken place in the last dozen years, virtually since the 150th centenary.
That is the bit of Kinealy's statement you have deliberately(?) left out.
Kinealy and all modern historians are now debating the causes of the famine; Kinealy and others you have quoted have all drawn attention to the fact that the issue of blame has not been discussed since the 1960s (hence here referring to that date has been because revisionists have been afraid to do so because of the developing situation in the North - she specifically makes the point that they have not wished to hand the dissident Republicans ammunition at a dangerous point in history - it's all there if you care to read it - if you haven't already and deliberately ignored it.
I think that just about wraps up your case for "majority historians" - don't you?
Now will you go away - fall on your sword like a good Samurai should
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 05:56 AM

I have consistently claimed that many historians do not find Britain culpable, and that you were not presenting a balanced view.
Kinealy revealed that they are the dominant view.

"Thirdly, the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts. Moreover, both the landlords and the British government have been rehabilitated;"

" Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 05:39 AM

Your consistent claim of majority historians is based on a quote from Kinealy - that is the sole basis for your claim
"It was Kinealy who stated that they are a majority."
Kinealy said that the majority of historians have avoided the causes and the culprits of the Famine, not that they don't blame Britain - she herself blames Britain's refusal to act to assist Ireland, as does every other historian you have quoted - she goes further to say that what Britain did do was exactly the opposite of assisting - you have the quote of her making this statement.
Your case of "majority" is based on your having deliberately twisted the writings of a historian who is saying exactly the opposite.
If you can show that she is claiming that the majority "don't blame Britain" - please produce it.
If you can show that any historian has made such a claim - please produce it.
I am producing documented facts based on documentation contemporary to the Famine, so far from half a dozen hsirtorians (plenty more to come) - if you can show that it is not true, invented, made up, revisionist - whatever nonsense you choose to hise behine, please produce it - otherwise, go away as you promised and don't make yourself more of a lying idiot than you have so far.
Now - MAJORITY HISTORIANS PLEASE should be fairly simple.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 05:23 AM

No you haven't - how could you if you haven't read any of them.

But I have Jim.
Just not their books.
I am sure Kinealy is very widely read and she states, quite unequivocally, that revisionist historians (who do not find Britain culpable) are dominant and have been for nearly ninety years.

You are posting your view, in vast swathes of pasted text, as if it was widely believed.
It is just a minority view.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 05:17 AM

"I have produced quotes by historians disputing culpability."
No you haven't - how could you if you haven't read any of them.
But not the point anyway.
You have been presented with facts on Britain's behavior in Ireland - nobody has disputed them - or if they have, you have not even attempted to deny them - they are facts.
I know you have no opinion about history, nor have you any knowledge
The Irish Famine is a historical topic - if you are not interested, go away and stop trolling a subject you have admitted having no interest in
Some more facts from yest again more historians.
Jim Carroll

Episode 183
'GIVE US FOOD, OR WE PERISH'
When the potato blight struck for a second time in 1846, every part of Ireland was affected. Father Theobald Mathew, after travelling from Dublin to Cork, wrote to Charles Trevelyan, head of the Treasury, on 7 August:
I beheld with sorrow one wide waste of putrefying vegetation. In many places the wretched people were seated on the fences of their decaying gardens, wringing their hands and wailing bitterly the destruction.... The food of a whole nation has perished.
What should the government do? Trevelyan devised a new system of public works in August. To fit in with Trevelyan's free market philosophy, warmly shared by the Whig government, the works were not to compete with capital¬ist enterprise, and they were confined to building walls, roads, bridges, cause¬ways and fences. The new relief works were to be financed entirely out of rates—Irish property was to pay for Irish poverty. It was not until October that this cumbersome bureaucracy (eventually numbering 12,000 officials) could issue tickets giving employment to those considered sufficiently destitute.
Commissary-General Sir Randolph Routh suggested that the Irish ports should be closed to stop the further export of corn. This proposal was firmly rejected by Trevelyan, who told Routh on 3 September: 'Do not encourage the idea of prohibiting exports, perfect Free Trade is the right course.' For once, Routh dared to disagree with his superior. By the end of the harvest 60,000 tons of oats alone would have left the country, he explained. But Trevelyan, fully supported by Prime Minister Lord John Russell, vehemently opposed such a radical step: 'We beg of you not to countenance in any way the idea of prohibiting exportation.... There cannot be a doubt that it would inflict a permanent injury on the country.'
All this time the depots providing subsidised Indian corn, set up by Peel's Tory government in the previous year, were being closed down. Too late in the day Trevelyan decided to attempt to buy com abroad. The harvest across Europe in 1846 had been very poor, and there was no surplus for sale. The American maize harvest had already mostly been bought up. Even if corn could be purchased, it would not be ready for transportation until December, a month when American rivers were mostly frozen over. And yet oats, wheat and barley, grown and harvested in Ireland, continued to be shipped out of the country across the Irish Sea.
On 3 October 1846 the Repeal journal, the Vindicator, made a simple appeal:
'Give us food, or we perish,' is now the loudest cry that is heard in this unfortunate country. It is heard in every corner of the island—it breaks in like some awful spectre on the festive revelry of the rich—it startles and appals the merchant at his desk, the landlord in his office, the scholar in his study, the minister in his council-room, and the priest at the altar. 'Give us food, or we perish.' It is a strange popular cry to be heard within the limits of the powerful and wealthy British empire.... Russia wants liberty, Prussia wants a constitution, Switzerland wants religion, Spain wants a king, Ireland alone wants food.
Lord John Russell's government opposed such a simple solution: the starving must buy food with money earned on public works. But there were agonising delays before many of the relief schemes opened. The relief works were hampered by a shortage of handcarts and wheelbarrows, a lack of engineers to direct operations, and heavy falls of snow. The longest and most severe winter in living memory had begun.
During the first weeks of 1847 the weather deteriorated even further. From the north-east blew 'perfect hurricanes of snow, hail and sleet' which caused the famished labourers on the relief works to collapse from exposure.
On 17 January George Dawson, wrote from Castledawson, Co. Londonderry, to Sir Thomas Fremantle, a former Irish Chief Secretary:
My dear Fremantle,
... I can think of nothing else than the wretched condition of this wretched people.... I do not exaggerate when I tell you that from the moment I open my hall door in the morning until dark, I have a crowd of women and children crying out for something to save them from starving. The men, except the old and infirm, stay away and show the greatest patience and resignation. I have been obliged to turn my kitchen into a bakery and soup shop to enable me to feed the miserable children and mothers that cannot be sent away empty. So great is their distress that they actually faint on getting food into their stomachs.... Death is dealing severely and consigning many to an untimely tomb.... I see enough to make the heart sick.... Hundreds will die of starvation.
And, as we shall see, during that terrible winter of 1846-7 conditions were even worse in the west and the south.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 04:41 AM

I have produced quotes by historians disputing culpability.

The quotes were given with links so they could be seen in context.

I have produced actual historians disputing culpability, and Kinealy refers to others and confirms they are dominant.

I have no opinion about the History, but you are giving a minority view as if it is the only one.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 04:14 AM

"How about some balance?"
Put your balanced argument - you haven't so far, you've just hidden behind historians you haven't read
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 03:51 AM

"Jim, you are still posting at great length a version of events that you conceded is not endorsed by most historians!"
By the way - where on earth have I ever conceded that my view is not endorsed by most historians
You can't seriously believe that my posting agreeing with you was anything more than an obviously ironic effort to shut you up?
Are you really that much of a simpleton?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 03:22 AM

Meant to say that none of these postings are for you - nobody on this forum (except the thug) takes you seriously any more, if they ever did.
Your eccentrically dishonest behaviour lately has made sure of that.
Anyway - you said you were going - you've gone (unless you lied about that as well)
There you go - more to come
Jim Carroll

There is no historical evidence implicating the British govern¬ment in a conspiracy to exterminate the population of Ireland, but many government officials, as well as those advising them, looked upon the famine as a God-sent solution to the so-called Irish question. One such was Nassau Senior, professor of polit¬ical economy at Oxford and a staunch supporter of the views of the British treasury. Senior did not hesitate to express him¬self on the Irish question, and after doing so to an Oxford colleague named Benjamin Jowett, the latter remarked: "I have always felt a certain horror of political economists, since I heard one of them say that he feared the famine ... in Ireland would not kill more than a million people, and that would scarcely be enough to do any good."22
This cool regret that the famine would do away with only a million (instead of the earlier estimated two million, which turned out to be closer to the mark) was shared by those in gov¬ernment as well, who spoke publicly of the Irish as though they were unfit to be included in the human race. Poulett Scrope, a member of Parliament, said that traveling from En¬gland to Ireland was like going back through history "from an age of civilization and science to one of ignorance and bar¬barism." Even Thomas Macaulay, who criticized England for not "elevating" the Irish, called Ireland a perverse and ob¬stinate exception to the progress shared by her European neighbors—"a marsh saturated with the vapours of the At¬lantic."23
Sir Charles Trevelyan remarked in 1846 that "the great evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people." He then turned not to "popery" or to the "idolatry" of the Roman Catholic Church but to God Himself, that Great Disposer of Events, whose intentions were as unfathomable as they were holy and unas¬sailable, and attributed the famine to Him. Since the Almighty had willed it, the English government would be presumptuous indeed to attempt any rash or precipitous solution. The Irish problem and overpopulation were, in his eyes, one and the same, and "being altogether beyond the power of man, the cure had been applied by the direct stroke of an all-wise Prov¬idence in a manner as unexpected and as unthought of as it is likely to be effectual."21
Later, in 1848, he admitted that the matter was "awfully serious," but added, "we are in the hands of Providence, with¬out a possibility of averting the catastrophe if it is to happen." By then, though another half-million Irish had died, what Trevelyan perceived as catastrophe had still not happened. Obviously prepared to see the entire population wiped out, he said, "We can only wait the result." He even went so far as to pity the Irish for not appreciating the hopelessness of their situation: "It is hard upon the poor people that they should be deprived of knowing that they are suffering from an affliction of God's providence."25
The idea that the famine in Ireland was the work of Prov¬idence gained more and more adherents among Anglican churchmen and government officials as the crisis deepened and the deaths from starvation and disease increased. God was blamed for the British government's sins of omission, its own dismal failure to act in time with a power and purse com¬mensurate with a disaster that was soon to be ten times greater then the Great Plague of London in 1665, when the Black Death killed off between sixty thousand and a hundred thou¬sand people. Four hundred thousand had already died in Ire¬land, the deaths were on the increase, and the government was still calling it a "local distress." Nor was it forgotten by the Irish that after the Great Fire of London, in 1666, when a blaze lasting five days virtually destroyed the city, including St. Paul's, the Irish contributed for the relief of distressed Lon¬doners twenty thousand fat cattle, whose value in 1846-47, when the Irish were starving, far exceeded the relief sent to Ireland from England and Europe.26
Trevelyan's "affliction of God's providence" remark was made during 1847, the very year that a government statistical commissioner, Captain Larcom, found the total value of the agricultural produce of Ireland for that year to be £44,958,120, enough to feed, at least during the desperate famine months, not only the eight million people living in Ireland but another eight million besides. Trevelyan could not have been unaware of what happened to this produce. In every harbor in Ireland during this period, a ship sailing in with Indian maize from America passed half a dozen British ships sailing out with Irish wheat, oats, and cattle. But in Trevelyan's eyes, and in the eyes of most members of Parliament, England was exoner¬ated from any guilt because all agreed "that there must be no interference with the natural course of trade."
"They call it God's famine!" cried a distraught Bishop Hughes from a pulpit in New York City. "No!—-No! God's famine is known by the general scarcity of food which is its consequence. There is no general scarcity. . . . But political economy, finding Ireland too poor to buy the produce of its own labor, exported that harvest to a better market, and left the people to die of famine, or to live by alms."27
France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, and Russia all suffered a potato blight in 1846-47. But unlike British-ruled Ire-land, they stopped all other food exports to make up for the loss. With virtually its whole population starving, Ireland under self-rule would have done the same thing. Indeed, the Irish Parliament of the eighteenth century, before the union with Britain in 1800, had more than once in times of distress prohibited the export of grain. But Ireland under British rule was powerless to counter the blight as other countries did. The potato had become the crucial food because all other food produced in Ireland was destined under Britain's economic scheme to be eaten elsewhere. It was the scheme, rather than the lives the Irish were losing, that British government officials held sacred.
Trevelyan had not even taken the trouble to visit Ireland and see with his own eyes the degradation he discussed with such glib simplicity and lofty detachment. Another English¬man who did take the trouble, William Bennett, vehemently contradicted Trevelyan's attempt to exonerate England by at¬tributing the havoc to God's will. The west of Ireland, he said, "exhibited a people not in the center of Africa, the steppes of Asia, the backwoods of America,—not some newly-discovered tribe of South Australia, or among the Polynesian Islands,—not Hottentots, Bushmen, or Esquimaux,-—neither Mohomedans nor Pagans,—but some millions of our own Christian nation at home . . . living in a state and condition low and degraded to a degree unheard of before in any civilized community; driven periodically to the borders of starvation; and now re¬duced by a national calamity to an exigency which all the efforts of benevolence can only mitigate, not control; and under which thousands are not merely pining away in misery and wretchedness, but are dying like cattle off the face of the earth, from want and its kindred horrors! Is this to be regarded in the light of a Divine dispensation and punishment? Before we can safely arrive at such a conclusion, we must be satisfied that human agency and legislation, individual oppressions, and social relationships, have had no hand in it."28
Even English writers and poets were among the critics of the Irish, and if they refrained from rejoicing in the famine's decimation of the people, they did not hesitate to wish that the troublesome island would somehow go away. When Alfred Nobel invented dynamite in Sweden, England's poet laureate, Alfred Tennyson, calling the Irish "furious fools" who "live in a horrible island and have no history of their own worth the least notice," hit upon what he apparently considered a splendid idea: "Could not anyone blow up that horrible island with dynamite and carry it off in pieces—a long way off?"29
These harsh expressions of suppressed English guilt in¬creased as the situation in Ireland became more desperate. Instead of wishing Ireland blown up and carried off in pieces, the English could have given the horrible island back to the Irish. Had they done so, there would have been no starvation, at least not in Ireland, where the produce earmarked for con¬sumption in England would have been beyond the capacity of the Irish to consume themselves.
But Ireland was too close and, after suffering seven cen¬turies of oppression, too hostile to be set free. She was at once a vital and gangrenous member of the British Empire, a back¬yard dominion whose people under any other flag would be a constant threat. Besides, England continued to profit from the arrangement, while Ireland continued to display the same deep and hideous wounds. The wheat, barley, oats, and live cattle, sheep, and pigs continued to flow in only one direction —from Ireland to England. In the other direction flowed the manufactured goods from England, the clothing, saddles, har¬nesses, soap, and machinery that only 10 percent of the Irish population could afford to buy. From 1800, when the union was formed, to the time of this terrible famine, manufacturing of all kinds, and especially of cloth (an Irish specialty), was systematically discouraged until Ireland became an agricul¬tural country dependent upon the manufactured goods of En¬gland. Irish farmers continued to use and mend their old farm¬ing tools and equipment; their wives still wove cloth and made coats for their children, but manufactured goods came mostly from England, at the expense of Ireland's economy and to the advantage of England's.30
As one old, foresighted Irishman put it during these awful years of the famine: "Ah, the answer is in the tea leaves, if only you will wait for them to settle."31

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 03:03 AM

You have no idea what most historians deny as you haven't read any of them - so to say that "most historians believe" anything is a blatant fabrication - an invention on your part.
What you are being presented with here are a list of facts from three historians - so far - there will be more
The last item came with opinions which are directly related to facts.
All the facts are linked to footnotes which are traceable so the idea that they are invented is out of the question - they can be checked because they can be followed up by any anybody who reads the books - all documented and annotated.
You are not in a position to challenge the facts (not until you read a book) so you hide behind your cut-'n-pastes - all of which have fallen apart on you - every single one.
Another big one coming up I'm afraid.
It doesn't matter that you have not responded to any ogf the facts - you are out of this - you've never been in, just a pest who has trolled your way into a discussion to prove "Britain didn't do nuffin'" as usual.
Facts man - facts, that what will make a point - not the selective politicking you constantly indulge in
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 02:24 AM

Yes, but as you agreed, most historians deny culpability.

You are posting vast acreages of a minority opinion.
How about some balance?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 05:42 PM

Yeah - why not!

His 1848 book The Irish Crisis, in which he claimed that the crisis was over, set forward his thesis as a justification for his Irish policy: "The only hope for those who lived upon potatoes was in some great visitation of providence to bring back the potato to its original use and intention as an adjunct, and not as the principal article of national food and by compelling the people of Ireland to recur to other more nutritious means of aliment, to restore the energy and the vast industrial capabilities of that country."28
This viewpoint had already found its expression in one of The Times's more notorious editorials on the Famine as panic was spreading through Ireland at the realization that the blight was striking again: "For our part, we regard the potato blight as a blessing. When the Celts once cease to be potatophagi, they must become carnivorous. With the taste for meats will grow the appetite for them; with the appetite, the readiness to earn them. With this will come steadiness, regularity, and perseverance; unless, indeed, the growth of these qualities be impeded by the blindness of Irish patriotism, the short-sighted indifference of petty landlords, or the random recklessness of Government benevolence."29
Readers are invited to compare this editorial with Trevelyan's comment to Lord Monteagle mentioned in his letter in chapter 6.
Bolstering the argument, Sir Charles Wood told the House of Commons, "No exertion of a Government, or, I will add, of private char¬ity, can supply a complete remedy for the existing calamity. It is a national visitation, sent by providence." This sentence provides a distillation of the effects of the political economists' debate and the Treasury's justification for allowing the Irish to starve.
The relevance of this exchange of high-sounding economic rhetoric among themselves by English theoreticians who, generally speaking, knew so little about Ireland that they could have found their way to Dublin's Sackville Street only with great difficulty, was that it provided an ominous bank of ideas for Trevelyan and others to draw upon when it came to com¬bating—or not combating—the famine.
As the Famine worsened, Trevelyan would thunder, and I quote for a second time, "every system of poor relief must contain a penal and repulsive
element, in order to prevent its leading to the disorganisation of society if the system is such as to be agreeable either to those who relieve or to those who are relieved, and still more if it is agreeable to both, all tests of destitu¬tion must be at an end."30 The task of the Treasury subsequently would be to insist more strictly on "sound principle."31
The teachings of Adam Smith took on a literally fatal hue when they moved out of the smoking rooms of London clubs and became the prin¬ciples on which the giving or withholding of food was to be based. Every commissariat officer and clerk dealing with the Famine was issued with a special edition of Adam Smith's 'Digression Concerning the Corn Trade and Corn Laws" from his 1776 An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations. The point Trevelyan wanted driven home was that price control—that is, providing cheap food—would produce "instead of the hardships of a dearth, the dreadful horrors of a famine." Staff dealing with relief were also urged along the non-intervention path by being given extracts from Edmund Burke's "Thoughts and Details on Scarcity."
When these utterances fell on what was to Trevelyan "the stony ground of humanitarian objection," he had the offending officials removed. Throughout the crisis he harried dissenting officials like Edward Twiselton with memoranda concerning their performances, seeking better account keeping, more minute reports, and so forth. In short, the armory of the Treasury was deployed to ensure that the dictates of political economy and reform of the Irish land system took precedence over the relief of starvation.
While the foregoing ideas clearly found a strong echo in British famine policy initiatives, The Times wrote complacently in 1848, "A Celt will soon be as rare on the banks of the Shannon as the red man on the banks of Manhattan."
And so, to sum up, what was the purpose behind all this manipulation of public opinion? Could it be argued that the Whig policy toward Ireland in the Famine years was merely a bungled attempt at relief, that the policies followed had a genocidal outcome but not a genocidal intent? The verdict that should have emerged from these pages by now is an unequivocal no! John Mitchel's stark analysis that God sent the blight but the English created the Famine rings true.
Trevelyan's reliance on "natural causes" and Wood's admission to Monteagle as to what the cabinet really wanted to achieve are only two tiny tips of an iceberg. Whig policy was directed at getting the peasants off the land, and if it took mass death to achieve that objective, so be it.
Behind the rhetoric of The Times editorials and the utilization of eco¬nomic jargon and extreme Protestant prejudice to stem the flow of relief, even for the feeding of children or the provision of clothing for the naked, the underlying thrust of Whig policy had the aim of clearing man from the fields and replacing him with the bullock. Defenders of the Whigs have argued that Trevelyan and Woods could not be accused of a deliberate at¬tempt to commit genocide because they were men of conscience and after the Famine, their consciences did not trouble them. Trevelyan, his defenders would argue, was not a Cromwell, only a civil servant carrying out govern¬ment policy.
The conscience argument is absurd. The Irish peasants, if they were considered at all, rated no higher than Untermenschen. Cromwell regarded the slaughter of Catholics not as a matter to trouble the conscience but as an act for the glory of God. Trevelyan was not a mere civil servant; he was the architect and executor of government policy, a policy that sheltered behind the economic dogma that the laws of business were the laws of God.
Article 2 of the UN Convention on Genocide defines genocide as mean¬ing "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethical, racial or religious group," by means that include the following:
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to the members of the group.
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions calculated to bring about its destruction in whole or in part.
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Article 3 includes under "Punishable Acts":
"Direct and public incitement to commit genocide" and "complicity in genocide."
Certainly in the years 1846-1851 responsible Whig decision makers were complicit in genocide and did direct public incitement, as the columns of The Times sadly confirm only too well, toward furthering that end. Just as there are those who still attempt to deny man's role in global warming, there are those who would still attempt to defend the Whigs' role on the grounds that the UN Convention on Genocide stems from 1948, not 1848. To them I end by saying there is another, even older command on which the UN declaration draws, and it is not disputed: Thou shalt not kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 05:20 PM

I think the troll's going fro five hundred lads - shall we give him a hand?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 04:11 PM

Yes, but you DON'T go....

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 04:07 PM

What bias and political agenda Greg?

This is the person quoted-
Stephen Davies is a program officer at the Institute for Humane Studies and the education director at the Institute for Economics Affairs in London.
Dr. Davies attended the University of St Andrews from 1972 to 1976, graduating with a First Class degree in History. He also obtained his PhD from the same university in 1984, on the topic of the Scottish criminal justice system before the abolition of private courts.

He formerly taught at the Manchester Metropolitan University where he was senior lecturer. His academic and research interests include the history of crime and criminal justice, history of ideas and political thought, comparative economic history, and the history of the private supply of public goods. He teaches, amongst other topics, courses on the history of crime and punishment in Britain, and the history of the Devil.

He has published a number of books and articles on a range of topics. His books includeThe Dictionary of Conservative and Libertarian Thought (which he edited with Nigel Ashford) and just recently Empiricism and History. Among his published essays are two in the recently published collection The Voluntary City, on the subjects of the private provision of law enforcement and the use of markets and property to plan urban growth.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 03:51 PM

...most historians...

Ah, Jaysus, here we go again with fuckwit telling us what historians he's never read have to say. Born with a caul, he was.

And do look up fee.org's obvious bias and political agenda, clearly stated on their website.

By the way, fuckwit, you've said you were gone half a dozen times, yet here you are again.

And now, a musical interlude!

Pirates of Penzance, Gilbert & Sullivan:

GENERAL. Away! away! . .
POLICE. (Without moving.) Yes, yes, we go!
GENERAL. These pirates slay.
POLICE. Yes, yes, we go.
GENERAL. Then do not stay.
POLICE. We go, we go.
GENERAL. Then why all this delay?
POLICE. All right! We go, we go;
Yes, forward on the foe! Ho! ho! ho! ho!
We go, we go, we go! _ Tarantara-ra-ra !
GENERAL. Then forward on the foe!
ALL. Yes! forward !
POLICE. Yes! forward!
GENERAL. Yes! but you don't go!
POLICE. We go, we go, we go !
ALL. At last they really go ! Tarantara-ra-ra!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 03:09 PM

Jim, you are still posting at great length a version of events that you conceded is not endorsed by most historians!

Another historical perpective.
"How culpable were the British ministers of the 1840s? They are charged with having given inadequate, limited relief because of their commitment to a doctrine of laissez faire. However, given the scale of the problem and the acute nature of the crisis once the harvest had failed for a second time in 1846, there was little they could do."

Read more: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/lessons-of-history-the-great-irish-famine#ixzz2Z7fhxnXV

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 01:14 PM

THE POOR LAW COMETH
In vain did Clarendon reply angrily to Grey that "it meant wholesale deaths from starvation and disease, and John Bull won't like that, however cross he may be at paying."
Clarendon's remonstrance, however, produced nothing. Chancellor Wood affected to believe that Clarendon was exaggerating the situation in Ireland. He wrote that "there had been exaggeration last year and there was probably exaggeration now."
Clarendon realized that the hand in the puppeteer's glove controlling Treasury policy was that of Charles Trevelyan. He wrote bitterly to a col-league, the influential Charles Greville, clerk of the privy council, complain¬ing about Trevelyan's influence. Greville noted that "Clarendon attributes a great part of the obstacles he meets with to Charles Wood, who is entirely governed by Trevelyan; and C.W. is to the last degree obstinate and tena¬cious of the opinions which his Secretary puts into him."
Despite Clarendon's pleas, the situation was left to the mercy of "natural causes," and the calamity that he predicted duly ensued.16 Wood struck a note of real hostility toward Ireland in his communications with Clarendon as he sounded the constant refrain of "no money." As the ending of the soup kitchens and the beginning of the implementation of the Poor Law Extension Act approached, Trevelyan was adamant that the new law would have to be financed from Ireland. All the chancellor was prepared to do was to forgive the £4.5 million that had been expended on the road schemes and soup kitchens and that, in theory, should have been repaid by the various re¬lief committees. This was a large sum of money at the time. But, realistically speaking, in view of the necessity to involve the army and the navy in rates collection described earlier in this chapter, there was no hope of collecting it anyhow.
Wood was also prepared to support a minor measure whereby property owners could borrow money to improve their estates at 3.5 percent. He and Trevelyan were ad idem on the subject. Wood told Clarendon that he and Trevelyan "had the most perfect understanding of this subject." His view was that "our rations" had afforded the Irish a "safe and comfortable exis¬tence." However, he added that "they have hardly been decent while they have found their bellies full of our corn and their pockets of our money."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 12:39 PM

What's a historian? Do you have to roll a trouser leg up or anything?

Check in with Keith. Knows all, tells all.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 12:29 PM

What's a historian?

Do you have to roll a trouser leg up or anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 11:50 AM

THE POOR LAW COMETH
"Neither ancient nor modern history can furnish a parallel to the fact that upwards of 3 millions of persons were fed every day in the neighbour¬hood of their homes, by administrative arrangements emanating from and controlled by one central office."1
Charles Trevelyan

The foregoing was the glowing praise that Charles Trevelyan bestowed on the operation of the Soup Kitchen Act, much of which he had diligently overseen and for which he felt entitled to take credit. What he did not state was that he had subsequently moved on to play a leading role in the operation of the Irish Poor Law Extension Act of 1847, which effectively undid much of the ben¬efit of the soup kitchens and brought an incalculable amount of suffering and death upon the starving.
The Poor Law Extension Act was the spawn of two conflicting ideolog¬ical parents: one maintained that Irish property should pay for Irish poverty; die other that, for both ideological and economic reasons, relief should not be given outside the workhouse walls. To provide outdoor relief, according to the moralizing political economists, would be both "demoralizing" and ruinous, given the numbers involved. These doctrines were so rigorously ad¬hered to that in some cases they even led to the ending of food distribution within the workhouses.
The workhouse in Cashel, County Tipperary, was suffering from "fright¬ful overcrowding" as Christmas 1846 approached and they had to turn away five hundred people who were eligible for admission but for whom there was no room. Because of their eligibility, the workhouse authorities, as was done elsewhere, gave the five hundred one meal a day inside the workhouse, arguing that this could not be considered outdoor relief because the food was eaten inside the workhouse. Officialdom would not accept this plea and said the practice had to stop.
However, back in London realization had set in that the work scheme had been a disaster and that something fresh had to be attempted. Barely a month after Cashel was forced to deny the starving five hundred, Lord John Russell announced a policy reversal. It made way for an expansion of the poor law to allow for the introduction of outdoor relief later in the year.
This legislation depended first on an impossibility and second on a cru¬elty. The impossibility lay in the principal assumption underlying the poor law extension, namely that it would be paid for out of the rates (local taxes) collected in Ireland. The doctrine on which this decision was based, that Irish property should pay for Irish poverty, would have been better phrased "Irish poverty must support Irish property."
The ruinous state of the country generally and that of the landlord class in particular has already been described. Even before the failure of the po¬tato, in 1844, the Conservatives, who were never in any danger of being accused of excessive tenderheartedness where the collection of Irish taxes was concerned, had taken part in a spectacular demonstration of the dif¬ficulties of extracting blood from a stone. In Mayo only one-quarter of the rates nominally due were collected even after the rate collectors had been provided with the following backup: two companies drawn from the Sixty-ninth Regiment, one troop from the Tenth Huzzars, fifty police, police inspectors, and two magistrates—backed up by two revenue cutters and a major warship, the Stromboli. This was not an isolated case. In the same year it had taken the deployment of seven hundred troops to collect the rates of neighboring Galway
This use of the army and the navy to collect rates had been debated in the House of Commons. The Whigs were fully aware of the difficulty of rate collection and the general situation regarding destitution in Ireland. What Trevelyan knew, chancellor of the exchequer Charles Wood knew. It would be an absurdity to suggest that the pair somehow managed to keep the prime minister and their cabinet colleagues in the dark over Ireland. Trevelyan, whatever his other faults, could not be accused of laziness. Every detail concerning relief had to be brought to his attention. In order to deal with a mountain of paperwork and the decision making this necessitated, he moved into a flat away from his wife and family so that he could work undisturbed, even over Christmas. He censured Sir Randolph Routh for wanting to take holidays at Christmas so that he could attend the vice-regal festivities, pointing out the "impropriety of appearing in public when the lives of such multitudes of persons depend on your unremitting exertions."2 Events were to prove, however, that Trevelyan's concern on that occasion was based not so much on sympathy with the "multitudes" as on public rela¬tions considerations.
For, as that grisly year of 1847 wore on, Trevelyan decided that the situ¬ation had improved so much that he could now take a well-earned holiday and in mid-August took his family off to France. Before going, in prepara¬tion for the coming into effect of the Poor Law Extension Act, which had become law on June 8, he oversaw the closing down of the soup kitchens and ordered the ending of the sale of meal from government depots. The in¬struction to these depots was clear: "Ship off all, close your depot and come away" Any meal remaining in the depot at the time of closure was either sold at market prices or, if unsold, removed in a government ship.
Trevelyan's view was that government relief had made the people worse, not better, and that the time had come to "try what independent exertion will do." By the beginning of October, the last soup kitchen and food depots in even the most distressed areas had ceased operations. Trevelyan described the cessation as follows: "The multitude was again gradually and peacefully The ringing declaration on rates was in part make-believe, in part a fig leaf for the true Treasury policy of getting rid of surplus population to make way for that longed-for "new ownership" that would create larger farms and would substitute cattle for potatoes. The real situation throughout much of Ireland where rates were concerned was eloquently, if despairingly, described by Colonel George Vaughan Jackson, a good resident Mayo landlord who was doing his best to maintain both his estate and his tenants in appalling circumstances. He wrote, "No men are more ill-fated or greater victims than we resident proprietors, we are consumed by the hives of human beings that exist on the properties of the absentees. On my right and my left are properties such as I allude to. I am overwhelmed and ruined by them. These proprietors will do nothing. All the burden of relief and employment falls on me. 11
The following month, on December 16, 1847, Lord Sligo, another landlord, wrote to The Times explaining what the poor law meant in prac¬tice: "On the express condition that they should make no provision for the future.... There are now therefore, at this moment, in obedience to the law. 26,000 people in Westport who are destitute of food, fuel and clothing.... The long account of money spent will not feed the crowds of destitute, the rates cannot do it, and if the union be left to that fund alone, these myriads must perish by famine."
The government had a most precise and up-to-date awareness of the truth of the situation described by Lord Sligo and Colonel Vaughan Jacksor Lord Clarendon himself bore out the truth of their observations, telling Sir George Grey the home secretary, that unless financial aid was forthcoming, "I dread some calamity . . . some hundreds dying all at once of starvation, which would not only be shocking but bring disgrace on the Government."14
However, he received nothing but contempt in response to his ap¬peal. Grey replied, "It may be that if numerous deaths should occur the Government would be blamed ... but there is such an indisposition to spend more money on Ireland, that the Government will assuredly and severely be blamed if they advance money to pay debts."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 11:13 AM

such media nonsense is not limited to the past or to a single geographic area...

we have similiar BS used about "welfare queens" and the undeserving "entitlement" leeches... you know them... the smucks that paid into a system such as social security and medicare their entire working careers and have the audacity to expect some return on their investment.

or how about the hatred used against migrant workers? makes you want to cringe and at the same time shout out... That's not me speaking! That's a group of not very nice people who don't care who they hurt, as long as they get what they want.

call it yellow journalism or Fox News... its sole purpose is to divide and conquer. and to the "real" victors, go the spoils

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 11:03 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 11:02 AM

More propaganda of Famine
Jim Carroll

Punch cartoons constantly portrayed "Paddy" as a simian in a tailcoat and a derby, engaged in plotting murder, battening on the labor of the English workingman, and generally living a life of indolent treason. This concept of the Irishman was implanted in the popular mind as a given, not merely throughout the Famine but during the Fenian movement that grew out of the Famine and the home-rule campaign some forty years later.
Punch did not rely merely on its cartoons for its simian imagery and an allied anti-black prejudice. It could also write things like the following:
A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes to Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages; the lowest species of the Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is moreover, a climbing animal and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder with a hod of bricks. The Irish Yahoo generally confines itself within the limits of its own colony, except when it goes out of them to get its living. Sometimes, however, it sallies forth in states of excitement, and attacks civilized human beings that have provoked its fury. The somewhat superior ability of the Irish Yahoo to utter articulate sounds, may suffice to prove that it is a development, and not, as some imagine, a degeneration of the Gorilla.
While the simian motif was not confined to Punch, the journal should be regarded as the principal procreant cradle of the species.
A point to be noted about the foregoing type of writing is that many of the Punch contributors were Irish, their contributions to the magazine validating the old axiom that whenever the British needed a stage Irishman for a West End part, they could always be certain of getting an Irishman to portray him. When M. A. Busteed and R. I. Hodgson spoke of "multi-layered Irish demonology" to describe the continuing strain of anti-Irish prejudice in influential English circles, they spoke truly.10 Where the era of the Famine is concerned, a particularly virulent strain of anti-Irish prejudice may be traced throughout the nineteenth century from the first failing of the potato in 1845 to the end of the century, when the ugly growth of prejudice could be seen flourishing in the unlikely setting of the writings of Sidney and Beatrice Webb, influential socialist economists and co-founders of the London School of Economics and Political Science. "Multi-layered" accurately describes this strain, for it was not merely anti-Irish, but contemptuous of blacks, Catholicism, and Celts as well.
The historian James Anthony Froude bolstered the Punch image by writing in 1845 that the people in Catholic Ireland were "more like tribes of squalid apes than human beings."
Such theories were given a pseudo-scientific patina of respectability by the writings of people like Robert Knox, a Scottish anatomist and zoologist and a popular lecturer about race, who wrote, "The Celtic race does not, and never could be made to comprehend the meaning of the word liberty. ... I appeal to the Saxon men of all countries whether I am right or not in my estimate of the Celtic character. Furious fanaticism; a love of war and disorder; a hatred for order and patient industry; no accumulative habits; restless; treacherous; uncertain; look at Ireland."
Charles Kingsley, an Anglican clergyman, historian, and novelist who is best remembered today as a writer of children's fiction including Hereward the Wake and The Water Babies, wrote after a visit to Ireland, "I am daunted by the human chimpanzees I saw along that hundred miles of horrible country. I don't believe they are our fault. I believe that there are not only many more of them than of old, but that they are happier, better and more comfortably fed and lodged under our rules than they ever were. But to see white chimpanzees is dreadful; if they were black, one would not feel it so much, but their skins, except where tanned by exposure, are as white as ours."13
Thomas Carlyle chose a lower place in the animal kingdom to describe the Irish. He wrote, "Ireland is a starved rat that crosses the path of an elephant: what is the elephant to do? Squelch it, by heaven! Squelch it!"
Apparently not convinced that the squelching process would be sufficient. Carlyle also suggested that the best course for England in dealing with the Irish was to "lead them and put them over with the niggers."
Carlyle's rat reference and his repellent anti-black sentiments could be dismissed as vulgar abuse, but his description of the workhouses and of outdoor works were more damaging and played straight into the hands of people like Trevelyan and Wood, who were looking for ways to stop spend¬ing money on Ireland and increase the clearances from the land. Carlyle first visited Ireland for four days in 1846, during which he saw the blackened potato fields and met with the Young Ireland leader Charles Gavan Duffy, who introduced him to John Mitchel. Carlyle made a comprehensive tour of Ireland in 1849 during which he visited a Westport workhouse. After witnessing the conditions, he wrote, "Human Swinery has here reached its acme, happily; 30,000 paupers in this union, population supposed to be 60,000. Workhouses proper (I suppose) cannot hold 3 or 4,000 of them, subsidiary workhouses, and outdoor relief the others. Abomination of deso¬lation; what can you make of it! Outdoor quasi-work; 3 or 400 big hulks of fellows tumbling about with shares, picks and barrows, 'levelling' the end of their workhouse hill; at first glance you would think them all working; look nearer in each shovel there is some ounce or two of mould, and it is all make believe; 5 or 600 boys and lads, pretending to break stones. Can it be charity to keep men alive on these terms? In face of all the twaddle on the earth, shoot a man rather than train him (with a heavy expense to his neighbour to be a deceptive human swine."
There is no disputing the efforts that the contemporary opinion makers, the Whig spin doctors, exerted in making the Famine seem not so bad. Their propaganda took quite extraordinary forms. In one humiliating tableau designed to show that the government was taking active steps to improve the diet of the starving in April 1847, Alexis Soyer, the French chef at the Reform Club in London, which at the time was the Liberals' own bastion, was brought over to Ireland to add luster to the opening of a soup kitchen in Dublin. Soyer was regarded as one of Europe's leading chefs, and he had garnered considerable publicity in London for devising a soup for the poor that he averred was sufficient to sustain a healthy diet when consumed with a biscuit. The ingredients were "quarter lb leg of beef; costing 1d, to 2 gallons of water, the other ingredients being 2 oz. of dripping; 2 onions and other vegetables 2d; a quarter of a Lb of flour, seconds; quarter lb of pearl barley; 1 quarter; 3 oz. salt and V2 oz. brown sugar; total cost ls.4d. 100 gallons could be made for under £1 including an allowance for fuel.
There was subsequent controversy as to the nutritional value of Soyer's soup. Critics pointed out that it ran through the recipients almost immediately and thus provided little lasting energy, but the most telling criticism of the Soyer performance came from Sir John Burgoyne, who commented on the methodology employed by the authorities in staging the Soyer demonstration. Bowls affixed to chains were provided in the wooden structure erected for this piece of dietary theater. A bell rang and a hundred starving persons were admitted at a time, drank their soup, received a piece of bread, and left the building. Then the bowls were rinsed, a bell rang again, and another hundred of the destitute shuffled forward. Sir John complained that this was treating the poor like "wild animals."15
Various medical experts contested Soyer's estimate of the value of the soup, which, as Mr. Dobree of Sligo wrote, "was no working food for people accustomed to 141bs. of potatoes daily." A liquid diet in itself could not pro¬vide all the essential nutrients required to maintain a healthy body. Experts in Skibbereen who had all too much firsthand acquaintanceship with starvation wrote that the soup "passed through people dangerously quickly and in fact gave rise to dysentery." However, as we have seen in the chapter on souperism and soup kitchens, soup based on more nutritious foundations than Soyer's, when accompanied by bread, did keep people alive, and the use of the chef by the government provided a gala public relations exercise in Dublin, at which members of high society were quoted as finding Soyer's recipe tasty and sustaining.
But the most extraordinary coup was a royal visit paid by Queen Victoria in August 1849. The visit highlighted the nearly incomprehensible, but con¬tinuing, popularity of the British Royal Family (evidenced yet again by the visit of Queen Elizabeth to Ireland in 2011) in a nation upon whom such suffering had been heaped in the name of that same crown. Queen Victoria was welcomed in Cork by displays of loyalty that included coating the
waterfront buildings in sumptuous red cloth. The leitmotif of her visit was symbolized by the banners that greeted her saying, "Hail Victoria, Ireland's hope and England's Glory." Her route was carefully stage-managed. She saw Cork but nothing of the famine-stricken West of the county wherein lay Skibbereen, and she traveled by sea to Kingstown (now Dun Laoghaire) in County Dublin without seeing any other afflicted part of the country. Her drives through Dublin lay through the imposing main squares, and she saw nothing of slums although she perceptively recorded in her diary that she saw more ragged people in Dublin than anywhere else. But, overall, the queen was struck by the beauty of the women and the huge welcome evi¬denced everywhere by cheering crowds and triumphal arches. At Kingstown an old woman shouted, "Ah, Queen dear, make one of them Prince Patrick and Ireland will die for you."17
Needless to say, all this provided endless opportunities for gushing re¬ports in the press depicting an "Ireland of the Welcomes" in which famine did not occur and there were glamor and merriment on a scale not seen in Ireland since the days when she had her own parliament.
John Mitchel has left us a vivid description of another form taken by the influencing of public opinion—straightforward intimidation at election time, when voters who wished to vote against a landlord candidate had to run the gauntlet of bailiff, policemen, soldier, and, if they persisted in disobeying their orders, eviction, with fatal results to themselves and their families.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 10:57 AM

The Irish, whom we have welcomed to all the comforts of old England


Now THAT really IS amusing. Not.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 10:33 AM

THIRTEEN
THE PROPAGANDA OF FAMINE

The propaganda of the Famine
"The English are very well aware that Ireland is a trouble, a vexation, and an expense to this country. We must pay to feed it, and pay to keep it in order ... we do not hesitate to say that every hard-working man in this country carries a whole Irish family on his shoulders. He does not receive what he ought to receive for his labor, and the difference goes to maintain the said Irish family, which is doing nothing but sitting idle at home, basking in the sun, telling stories, going to fairs, plotting, rebelling, wishing death to the Saxon, and laying everything that happens at the Saxon's door.... The Irish, whom we have admitted to free competition with the English labourer, and whom we have welcomed to all the comforts of old England, are to reward our hospitality by burning our warehouses and ships and sacking our towns."
—The Times, July 26,1848
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 09:51 AM

Keith: I have nothing more to say.

Ooops.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 09:47 AM

Why did it take so many weeks and so much abuse?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 08:50 AM

Now perhaps we can continue uninterrupted by the stalker
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 08:43 AM

I have nothing more to say.

Now, THERE'S a lie ........

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 07:55 AM

I have apologised and withdrawn my opposition to your overwhelming evidence - puyt it down to a lifetime of brainwashing
You promised to go away
Go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 04:40 AM

You have produced nothing;

I have produced quotes by historians disputing culpability.
I did so in my very first post to you on this.
The quotes were given with links so they could be seen in context.

I have produced actual historians disputing culpability, and Kinealy refers to others and confirms they are dominant.

My only case is that culpability is disputed, and it is.
Stop denying that truth, and I have nothing more to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 03:56 AM

"Stop denying that truth, and I have nothing more to say."
Sorry - cross posted
Yoou are totally right - we are all totally wrong - sincerest apologies
Go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 03:37 AM

You have produced nothing; you have attempted to show that what happened didn't happen, you are attempting to re-write history.
You and your mate will not respond to the facts that have been presented to you - not even to dispute them with 'facts' of your own.
In the course of your missions you have both let slip the same hatred for Irish peoples that you have for other nationalities and religions in the past.
This time you really have gone too far by turning your hatred on other members of this forum; Irish men and women, Anglo Irish people like myself and American Irish citizens, all "brainwashed" to hate Britain.
If we don't agree with your Messianic claims we have all been conditioned by corrupt and manipulating education systems.
In the past you expressed your contempt for us by saying you are "casting pearls before swine" by arguing with us; you have claimed "infallibility" for your arguments
Now you go the whole hog - the whole world is wrong but yourself.
When you attacked Pakistanis you gathered together a mythical army of social workers and politicians who inspired you (by divine visitation presumably, you never managed to produce an actual statement by one of them) to claim that "all Pakistanis are culturally implanted to have underage sex" (deny this and I'll put it up again).
Here you claim the support of a mythical army of historians who (again by divine visitation - you admit to having read none of them) to rewrite Irish history.
Each of them has crumbled before your eyes and you ask us to "forget" them, as apparently you have - gone in a puff of divine smoke at your command "OK, forget him." abracadabra - your latest knight in shining armour gone in a puff of magic smoke.
Your breathtaking arrogance in declaring that you don't need to read to know what you claim to know really does it - divine visitation again?
You have no serious support here; the only way you manage to cling on to this and other threads you leech onto is by ignoring what is put in front of you.
You work by filibustering these discussions to death until we all walk away in despair and disinterest.
Your friend, the aptly named 'Terpsichore', dances and dodges around the subjects, trying to bluff his way with bluster, bullying and bullshit, insulting us all as he goes (including in his thuggish efforts at one time, one of my long-dead parents, my mother, who he described as a prostitute).
He behaves like a thug, permanently talking down to everybody who opposes us, your technique is a wheedling drip-drip-drip war of attrition.
You are both characters out of Dickens - you, the hand-wringing Uraih Heep, he the thuggish Bill Sykes.
I sincerely hope you have not killed yet another interesting thread with your dogged fanaticism.
It is an interesting topic; I have learned a great deal from this discussion and have been introduced to new facts and new experts in the course of it.
I have no idea how you can possibly know of a subject to appear to be proud to admit you have never read about and have never shown enough interest to rectify that omission.
Now I'll leave you to your Dalek-like repetition of what your voices are telling you and hope to be joined later by somebody a little more sane.
You are a very disturbed, and disturbing individual whose aim in life seems to be to let the British Empire off the hook for all its wrongdoings
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 14 - 02:19 AM

I have produced actual historians disputing culpability, and Kinealy refers to others and confirms they are dominant.

My only case is that culpability is disputed, and it is.
Do you know of any book that says that it is not Jim?

Stop denying that truth, and I have nothing more to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 08:07 PM

"You said he was not a historian Jim."
He isn't he's an historical economist.
You grabbed him as you grabbed every other historian because you believed he would back your manic hatred of the Irish - he, like all the others exploded in your face.
"The dominant view among actual historians is that the government was not culpable"
The dominant, virtually overwhelming view among historians is that the government was culpable, by its decision to adopt a policy of 'emigrate or die'.
What is under discussion is whether that was a deliberately thought out and adopted policy to solve the "Irish Question" or whether it was the inevitably result of a laissez-faire policy which withdrew famine aid from the dying Irish and forced them to leave the country in order to save their lives.
Trevelyan - who you have still not mentioned, was the advisor they appointed and whose advice they acted on.
He made is own position quite clear when he described the famine described the famine as an "effective mechanism for reducing surplus population" as well as "the judgment of God".
His was the governing voice throughout the Famine - even when the Russell Government proposed sending more relief, he advised against it and it wasn't sent.   
If you can produce a single historian who denies that happened - feel free to do so.
The Irish agrarian economy was one that existed under British rule - a peasant economy which suited the Empire so it was never modernised.
The blight was unstoppable - the consequences of the blight were serious but the Russell Government tore down the structure of aid Peel had set up in order to let the market flourish.
The British assisted absentee landlords to take over the lands of evicted small farmers.
They adopted a technique of 'cabin-tumbling' (very popular here in Clare). When a tenant was evicted, the bankrupt farmers' homes were systematically destroyed so none of the starving Irish could move into them to shelter - they starved in their thousands at the side of the roads - some of them managed to scrape out shelters in the earth and live like the animals ("the non-racist") Punch Magazine described them as.
The evictions continued through into the early twentieth century and the effects of those enforced evictions became part of the Irish culture.
One of the side effects were the 'Grazier' wars - land wars
The Irish are the people you have described as hating Britain because - to quote you "Generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive. Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree - Massachusetts?".
Ironically they do not hate Britain, certainly not as much as you hate them.
Who on earth do you think you are telling us you don't need to read in order to understand these subjects - you seem to had developed a Messiah complex.
Please drop us a line the next time you intend to walk across your local duck-pond or turn tap-water into bottles of Chianti - I can't wait.
Sleep well - or should I say - I hope you had a restful night - I have no doubt it wasn't disturbed by your non-existent conscience.
Happy hating!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 08:07 PM

"You said he was not a historian Jim."
He isn't he's an historical economist.
You grabbed him as you grabbed every other historian because you believed he would back your manic hatred of the Irish - he, like all the others exploded in your face.
"The dominant view among actual historians is that the government was not culpable"
The dominant, virtually overwhelming view among historians is that the government was culpable, by its decision to adopt a policy of 'emigrate or die'.
What is under discussion is whether that was a deliberately thought out and adopted policy to solve the "Irish Question" or whether it was the inevitably result of a laissez-faire policy which withdrew famine aid from the dying Irish and forced them to leave the country in order to save their lives.
Trevelyan - who you have still not mentioned, was the advisor they appointed and whose advice they acted on.
He made is own position quite clear when he described the famine described the famine as an "effective mechanism for reducing surplus population" as well as "the judgment of God".
His was the governing voice throughout the Famine - even when the Russell Government proposed sending more relief, he advised against it and it wasn't sent.   
If you can produce a single historian who denies that happened - feel free to do so.
The Irish agrarian economy was one that existed under British rule - a peasant economy which suited the Empire so it was never modernised.
The blight was unstoppable - the consequences of the blight were serious but the Russell Government tore down the structure of aid Peel had set up in order to let the market flourish.
The British assisted absentee landlords to take over the lands of evicted small farmers.
They adopted a technique of 'cabin-tumbling' (very popular here in Clare). When a tenant was evicted, the bankrupt farmers' homes were systematically destroyed so none of the starving Irish could move into them to shelter - they starved in their thousands at the side of the roads - some of them managed to scrape out shelters in the earth and live like the animals ("the non-racist") Punch Magazine described them as.
The evictions continued through into the early twentieth century and the effects of those enforced evictions became part of the Irish culture.
One of the side effects were the 'Grazier' wars - land wars
The Irish are the people you have described as hating Britain because - to quote you "Generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive. Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree - Massachusetts?".
Ironically they do not hate Britain, certainly not as much as you hate them.
Who on earth do you think you are telling us you don't need to read in order to understand these subjects - you seem to had developed a Messiah complex.
Please drop us a line the next time you intend to walk across your local duck-pond or turn tap-water into bottles of Chianti - I can't wait.
Sleep well - or should I say - I hope you had a restful night - I have no doubt it wasn't disturbed by your non-existent conscience.
Happy hating!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 05:51 PM

You said he was not a historian Jim.
OK, ignoring him, the dominant view among actual historians is that the government was not culpable.
I have produced actual historians, and Kinealy refers to others and confirms they are dominant.

My only case is that culpability is disputed, and it is.

Stop denying that truth, and I have nothing more to say Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 05:07 PM

"OK, forget him."
Piss off Keith
You can't5 piull hsitorians out of hats likerabbits and walk away from them when they don't fir as you have throughout this thread
You have shafted yourself on your own arrogance
Now keep your promise and go
You wnated out - you're out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 04:27 PM

"Mokyr is an historical economist, not a historian and he refers to the causes of the famine, not the consequences. His argument is that Ireland's problems were not, as Malthus had propounded, due to overpopulation, but because of a reliance on the potato as a staple diet due to an economy developed under British rule."

You took one statement that the professor made and added two that you made from whole cloth.

Most important point is that Irish subsistance farming produced very little value or wealth for the country.

Several large cities like London, Belfast, Glasgow and Edenburg had industrialization that added great wealth to the society for the number of manhours worked.

The Irish were the ones who insisted in keeping their country rural, picturesque and largely free from major roads, indusrtraliazation and sewage treatment projects and even from modern farming techniques.

Their choices, not the Brits.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 03:56 PM

OK, forget him.
I have produced actual historians and Kinealy identifies others who dispute culpability.
My only case is that culpability is disputed, and it is.

Stop denying that truth, and I have nothing more to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 03:52 PM

"Jim, I do not need a book to tell me I am right that culpability is disputed."
No you haven't.
Mokyr is an historical economist, not a historian and he refers to the causes of the famine, not the consequences.
His argument is that Ireland's problems were not, as Malthus had propounded, due to overpopulation, but because of a reliance on the potato as a staple diet due to an economy developed under British rule.
He in no way attempts to explain the cause of so may deaths or emigrants - that was not his field.
Grasping for straws doesn't hack it.
The breathtaking arrogance of someone who insists on dominating thread after not having read a book and then declaring "I do not need a book to tell me I am right" is staggering - infallibility indeed; how can
one possibly compete with such genius!
I'll gladly tell you what I think - I think you are a very disturbed, arrogabt and not very bright individual who need help.
I WANT OUT!
Tarry not upon your going but go - **** off, you won't be missed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 03:44 PM

I WANT OUT!

So go already & don't let the door hit you on your fuckwit arse as you leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 03:32 PM

Jim, I do not need a book to tell me I am right that culpability is disputed.
I have actually produced historians disputing it and so has pdq tonight.
I do not need a book to tell me that Kinealy says they are dominant.
YOU posted her into the thread saying it.

IF YOU DENY DISPUTE YOU ARE WRONG!
TELL US IF YOU DO OR NOT.
I WANT OUT!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 11:45 AM

"results of the peculiar political and social structure of Ireland,"
Brought about by the way that Ireland's economy was designed to be part of the British Imperial economy
The same was the case throughout the Empire with each colony acting as part of the Imperial jigsaw puzzle - India, Ceylon, Malaya..... and so ad infinitum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 10:55 AM

And by the way - would it be too much trouble for you to make up your mind over Trevelyan? - one minute his opinions were the opinions of one man and don't matter - the next minute they do matter and he's a nice feller - now that's what I call waffle.
Your continuing belligerent approach more or less confirms that you have nothing concrete to offer by way of reasoned argument
It's a little like having sand kicked in your face by a Charles Atlas advert.
Grow up
As you were corporal
Whatever you say Keith - I'm sure you believe you are right and will continue to do so until you read a book, or get someone to read one for you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 10:51 AM

"Professor Mokyr maintains that the 'Hungry Forties' were caused by the overall underdevelopment of the economy during the decades which preceded the famine. In Why Ireland Starved he tests various hypotheses that have been put forward to account for this backwardness. He dismisses widespread arguments that Irish poverty can be explained in terms of over-population, an evil land system or malicious exploitation by the British. Instead, he argues that the causes have to be sought in the low productivity of labor and the insufficient formation of physical capital – results of the peculiar political and social structure of Ireland, continuous conflicts between landlords and tenants, and the rigidity of Irish economic institutions."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 10:34 AM

"I would love to hear your case in support of your claim that Charles Edward Trevelyan hated the Irish"
You've had it - the fact that you choose to ignore it is your problem, not mine.
You want more, go and but the book and get someone to read the ten-page letter he wrote to the Morning Chronicle
Fake - you would say that, wouldn't you.
As far as I am concerned, 'God's contribution' and his welcoming the famine as a convenient way of solving The Irish question - a well enough known and widely quoted statement to make it true - to all other than those who would have it moved off centre-stage of course.
There's no waffle, even though you choose to describe it as such -
British policy exacerbated starvation in Ireland leaving the occupants with the choices to either emigrate or die.
The appointment of Trevelyan, the carrying out of his policies and the honouring of him when the job was completed makes it British culpability and indicates that the outcome met with their approval - no waffle there - a simply stated opinion.
The confirmation of that policy came in the mass evictions that turned the arrable land over to absentee landlords.
The only waffle here is your refusing to address the uncontradictable policy of closed warehouse, closed workhouses, export of enough food to feed the indigenous population four times over (according to the "definitive" Mrs Woodham Smith), the refusal to stop racketeering of the famine relief (again according to the "definitive" Mrs Woodham Smith), and the military backed mass evictions.
Justify those policies or show they didn't happen and you might have a case, your ignoring them only confirms that they did - now that's what I understand as "waffle".
Are you really suggesting that the Russell Government didn't close Peels warehouses or the workhouses - damn - we've all been brainwashed - Keith was right.   
"Emigrate or die" - that was the decision taken and that is what happened.
All of Keith's witnesses have said so and all have blamed the laissez-faire policy and callous indifference for the calamity.
Hiding behind the blight is a load of garbage - it was how the blight was dealt with - or not dealt with caused a million plus deaths and te depopulation of Ireland - not an inevitable catastrophe - not even the most hardened Empire loyalists can hide between that one any more.
Ireland was Britain's responsibility and Britain renaged on that responsibility
End of story
At ease corporal
Jim Christmas

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 09:05 AM

You've had the historian's (which you haven't read) discussion on the Famine, summed up by Christine Kinealy - you choose to ignore them
You have offered nothing but unqualified denial

I do not deny anything the historians say Jim.
I merely point out that they disagree on culpability, and most deny it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 08:40 AM

After checking out Mokyr's creds, I decided to check out some of his books. They are on order since these aren't on Oprah's list... lol

And before some start disputing his crediblity, if he's good enough for Oxford he should be good enough for Mudcat:

Joel Mokyr (born 26 July 1946) is an American and Israeli economic historian. Mokyr was born in the Netherlands and raised in Israel. He is the Robert H. Strotz Professor of Arts and Sciences at Northwestern University.

Mokyr holds a joint appointment in economics as well as a Sackler Professorial Fellow at the Eitan Berglas School of Economics at Tel Aviv University. He is particularly interested in the economic history of technology and population, but considers himself a general-purpose economic historian. A former editor of the Journal of Economic History and President of the Economic History Association, he served as the editor in chief of the Oxford Encyclopedia of Economic History, and continues to be editor in chief of a book series published by Princeton University Press, The Princeton University Press Economic History of the Western World. A former chair of the Economics Department and President of the Economic History Association, he is a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and a number of comparable institutions in Europe.

His bibliography:
1976: Industrialization in the Low Countries, 1795-1850
1983: Why Ireland Starved: An Analytical and Quantitative Study of Irish Poverty, 1800-1851
1985: The Economics of the Industrial Revolution (ed.)
1990: Twenty Five Centuries of Technological Change: An Historical Survey
1990: The Lever of Riches: Technological Creativity and Economic Progress
Review article: "The Great Conundrum," The Journal of Modern History Vol. 62, No. 1, March 1990
1991: The Vital One: Essays in Honor of Jonathan Hughes (ed.)
1993: The British Industrial Revolution: an Economic Perspective (ed.)
2002: The Gifts of Athena: Historical Origins of the Knowledge Economy
2003: The Oxford University Press Encyclopedia of Economic History (Editor in chief)
2009: The Invention of Enterprise: Entrepreneurship from Ancient Mesopotamia to Modern Times (Co-editor)
2009: The Enlightened Economy: An Economic History of Britain 1700-1850

He hardly sounds like someone with a grudge or axe to grind, but appears to be someone who understands that life is not simplistic and is trying to gain better understanding of the social and economic underpinings of historical events.

I would term him a history geek... LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 08:30 AM

You have provided no answers at all Christmas just pointless waffle. So far, you have provided no evidence whatsoever to back-up or support any case that the "Famine" was used and manipulated by the British Government to carry out any deliberate act of genocide (It is you who keep using the word "genocidal" isn't it). Not only do you not have the courage of your own convictions it would appear that you don't have any convictions, or if you have you cannot even state what those convictions are.

I would love to hear your case in support of your claim that Charles Edward Trevelyan hated the Irish. That he stated some pretty blunt and unflattering comments about them, particularly the land-owners is without doubt but that does not in itself indicate that he hated anybody, it only indicates that he was being brutally truthful about them. I remember asking you to provide some evidence to back up your accusation of him being a religious fanatic - still waiting for that. You keep wittering on about this "Providence of God" thing, as somehow being important, the way you present it, you infer that Trevelyan was the originator of this belief and you are only prepared to recognise Trevelyan as holding this view, when I have provided you with evidence that such a belief was widespread in Ireland among both the people and the clergy who ministered to them - so did that mean that they all hated the Irish as well?

You keep prattling on about closed down workhouses yet cannot offer any rational explanation as to how over the period in question the number of workhouses in Ireland rose from 128 in 1845 to 163 in 1851 - all that inaction especially considering that in Ireland in 1838 there were none.

Another of your "platforms" is the export of food from Ireland during the period in question, yet you seem to deliberately refuse to put that in context by conveniently forgetting to mention that those exports declined during the famine and the amount of imports increased dramatically - Had Peel not repealed the 1815 Corn Laws (That had benefited all farmers in the British Isles) then cheap food could not have been imported into Ireland between 1845 and 1851. What food in diminishing quantity that Ireland did produce just simply could not be transported to where it was needed - i.e. the people could not be fed in situ, they HAD TO MOVE. Post modern day famines Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Sudan, etc, the various UN agencies now know that you do not hand out food to successfully counter a famine you hand out money, it is much easier to transport and distribute - and history and track record shows conclusively that no matter how severe the famine there is always food available for purchase at the right price.

You continually accuse the British Government of doing nothing. I would like to see who your candidates were for those who did do something. The relief programme mounted by the British Government in terms of cost amounted to £9.95 million, yet you do not even acknowledge it ever existed, and before you come back and tell me that you did, if that was the case then you can hardly accuse them of doing nothing - can't have it both ways.

Famines and food shortages were endemic in Ireland, and their frequency was increasing as the population grew without any corresponding improvement either in commerce, in industry or in agriculture - funding for which had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Government of the day in the United Kingdom, or in any other country in the world at that time. So the condition that Ireland found itself in, in 1845 was very much down to the landed gentry of Ireland and those who farmed for them.

You look at the Irish Famine in isolation and blithely state that the British Government should have done this or done that, yet you ignore the scale of what had to be done, you ignore that the blight did not just strike and have an effect in Ireland its effects were felt all over the United Kingdom (Particularly in Scotland that received barely a fraction of the relief allocated to Ireland) and all over Europe, where cereal crop production suffered as well (rye & oats). You then use this blinkered and narrow vision to bolster up your condemnation of the effort made. You ignore, or completely dismiss the difficulties faced and attempt to portray what was unfolding as deliberate acts all planned and carefully worked out and orchestrated to destroy a nation. I shudder to think what the death toll would have been had the British Government at the time actually had done what you accuse them of.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 08:14 AM

You've had a list of British actions during the Famine - you choose to ignore them
You've had the historian's (which you haven't read) discussion on the Famine, summed up by Christine Kinealy - you choose to ignore them
You have offered nothing but unqualified denial
Your case is complete and )(apart from the belligerent Chocolate soldier - once again you are on your own.
A friendly word of advice on your racism.
I have taken the first teetering steps in an attempt to stop your gallop, which has now got out of hand - nothing definite yet, but if you continue, so will I.
It is one thing to attack ethnic groups the way you have - that seems to be the way of some parts of the world nowadays.
It is quite another to make swingeing racist generalisations about racial groups who are part of a discussion forum.
I find your disgusting "brainwash" suggestions deeply offensive - they include members my family, friends and neighbours and they include members of this forum.
I would feel quite justified in asking for a public apology and a withdrawal of your deeply offensive racist remarks, but from past experience I realise I would be wasting my time - so I'll just have to settle for it never happening again, which I trust, it won't.
I once considered requesting the same of your friend when he informed me that my mother was "on the game" - or some such sewer behaviour, but I thought it better to allow him to show us what he's made of.
So - as I say - continue with your racist diatribes on this forum and I will step up my efforts to stop you.
Done here Keith
Have a good day; I'm off into the garden   
Best
Jim, Jimbo, Christmas - whatever

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 07:43 AM

This historian, in my first post, disputes culpability so you are wrong and I am right Jim.
(And remember, such historians are dominant)

15 Jul 13 - 10:04 AM
Another historical perspective.
"How culpable were the British ministers of the 1840s? They are charged with having given inadequate, limited relief because of their commitment to a doctrine of laissez faire. However, given the scale of the problem and the acute nature of the crisis once the harvest had failed for a second time in 1846, there was little they could do."

Read more: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/lessons-of-history-the-great-irish-famine#ixzz2Z7fhxnXV

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 07:33 AM

You have challenged the fact that culpability is disputed??
I must have missed it!

How could you have when it is a plain, simple fact?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 06:37 AM

Or any "brainwashed Irishman or Irish American" for that matter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 06:02 AM

"Jim, I am an opponent of racism."
Yeah sure you are - ask any "implanted" Pakistani
I have challenged your version of the truth - you choose to ignore it
Go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 05:43 AM

Jim, I am an opponent of racism.
"Racist" is just what you accuse when you can not challenge what I actually say.
I say that culpability is disputed.
You can not challenge that truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 05:33 AM

"
Do you believe that the British Government carried out a deliberate policy of genocide in Ireland between the years 1845 and 1851?"
You've just had your answer to that - get somebody to read it to you.
"Contains not one single word written by you Christmas -"
It was my coup de grace of Keith's claim that she supported his case - I have expressed my own opinion throughout this discussion - unlike Keith's cut-'n- pastes - what's your point?
It was not "cherry-picked" - it was taken from fully-linked articles already up on this thread - the fact that you haven't bothered to read erither of them is an indication of your disinterest and ignorance of the subject in hand
"Ah so not deliberate then? Why not just say so?"
I have just answered tat question - get someone to read it for you.
"To state that they did nothing is ludicrous"
I didn't say they did nothing - what they did do left the alternative - "emigrate or starve"
Just said that - get someone to read it for you
"Ireland had up until 1801 been self-governing, the fact that it was corrupt and inefficient through a mixture of indolence and ignorance was no fault of mainland Britain, or it's Government."
Ireland waws under Brittish rule and its economy was completely under British control - British bulinessmen and landlords made sure of that - this is how Empire worked - go read a book
My respect for Mitchel is limited to his fight for Irish independence - if you care to read the notes to our Travellers CD on Musical Traditions you will find my attitude to his support for slavery - get someone to read it for you.
"Ah so now it was deliberate, then it may not be? Are you totally incapable of making your mind up on anything?"
The question of whether Britain's behaviour was deliberate or not is in contention everywhere and I have said so - gets someone to read what I have written instead of distorting what I believe.
Blaming the Irish for the results of the Famine just about sums up you pair of clowns
Morcambe and Wise are dead - why not set up a comedy team to replace them - though your inability to conduct a simple discussion without bullshit and bluster doesn't auger well for your chances.
Keith
You are a long established racist on this forum - live with it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 04:46 AM

Christmas:

Do you believe that the British Government carried out a deliberate policy of genocide in Ireland between the years 1845 and 1851?

No vast tracts of cut'n'pastes just a simple YES or NO.

Example of your cut'n'paste contributions:

Jim Carroll - Date: 30 Mar 14 - 11:20 AM

Contains not one single word written by you Christmas - If I wish to discuss the subject with Christine Kinealy then I will write to her - she will at least be capable of discussing what she wrote in context - not just snippets cherry-picked for effect. So much for your:

"(D)on't you dare suggest I have hidden behind cut-'n-pasted you distorting shit."

Examples of your mealy-mouthed waffle in response to a fairly direct and simple question:

1: "I believe the policy adopted by the British Government gave rise to the outcome - one million plus deaths and mass emigration for generations to come."

Ah so not deliberate then? Why not just say so?

2: "Whether the British Government had thought through their policies of non-action to their logical conclusion remains a moot point - the fact that those policies wrought the holocaust that it did does not - that's what Britain did (or didn't do - that's what happened)"

Well did they or didn't they? To state that they did nothing is ludicrous, it is a deliberate lie that can be clearly shown as such as the relief given is a matter of record.

3: "There is a logic behind the claim that what Britain did was deliberate - it suited Britain to have s subservient colony as a neighbour, but even if it was not a deliberate act of Genocide, it was an act of Genocide through malicious inaction - take your pick."

Ah so now it was deliberate, then it may not be? Are you totally incapable of making your mind up on anything?

As for this one - I will repeat the complete sentence:

"Ireland had up until 1801 been self-governing, the fact that it was corrupt and inefficient through a mixture of indolence and ignorance was no fault of mainland Britain, or it's Government."

Well up until 1801 Ireland did have it's own Parliament didn't it? It passed laws, set taxation, raised revenue didn't it? So who then could be held accountable for the state of the country, it's lack of investment, it's corruption, it's way of doing business, it's lack of engagement in any attempt at improvement? Certainly NOT the British Government - on mainland Great Britain all investment, improvement and innovation was PRIVATELY funded.

"There we go - Trevelyan writ large" - Are you surprised? Here we have a senior Civil Servant repeating what every commission that had looked into the state of affairs in Ireland had previously stated - Doubt that Christmas then read the findings of the Devon Commission 1845.

On the charge of racism this man John Mitchel famous for his 1861 work "The Last Conquest of Ireland (Perhaps)" that gave rise to the often quoted phrase - "The Almighty, indeed, sent the potato blight, but the English created the Famine." Is the same John Mitchel who in 1857 founded the "Southern Citizen" to promote - "the value and virtue of slavery, both for negroes and white men", advocate the reopening of the African slave trade and encourage the spread of slavery into the American West." Yet this is a man that you say commands your respect - more evidence of your hypocrisy and double standards.

By the way, can you explain why with Ireland blight free in 1847 the death toll was so great? Something to do with the Irish eating all the potatoes, including those distributed as seed potatoes? That the British Government's fault as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 04:41 AM

I am an opponent of racism.

"political not racist"
That was my opinion of a cartoon that portayed Ireland as Mary Shelly's Frankenstein.

The book was a sensation at the time.
The message was that British policies in Ireland would create a monster that would turn on its creator.
Political not racist.

That is a side issue.
My case in all this is that culpability for the famine is disputed.
It is.
Do you challenge that Jim, because if you do not I have nothing else to add.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 04:07 AM

"Racism is a form of hate."
To defend past racism as not being racist, as you have done, "Political not racist" is to lend support to racism - doesn't come any more complicated as that.
To describe Irish and Irish American people in terms such as "Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive. Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree. Massachusetts?" is a racist attack on those people and an insult to a large number of members of this forum
If this is not your posting, and someone has faked the posting I withdraw my accusation and apologies (or maybe that should be "grovel") - other than that, you have made a racist attack on millions of people - it doesn't come any more complicated than that either.
As far as your spurious claims on historians, every single one I have read holds Britain as culpable for the the Famine - not one has denied that their policies brought about millions of deaths - not one single one.
Not one has attempted to claim that; the closed workhouses and warehouses, the financial corruption surrounding famine relief, policy of exporting food out of starving Ireland, the mass evictions, the enforced emigrations; were not responsible for the million plus deaths and the depopulation of Ireland.
If you have an example of one historian denying any of this, please produce it - I have failed to find it.
What the vast majority have said is that Britain's culpability was due to callous indifference in putting the interests of The British Empire before before the lives of the Irish - all but one (a British historian based in Belfast) have claimed that this was an inhuman decision and that there were alternatives.
All this has been specifically stated by the people you have produced.
The only thing in dispute is whether or not this was a deliberate act aimed at the Irish - deliberate genocide.
As far as Britain's representative of Irish policy, Trevelyan, there is no question - he hated the Irish, he believed the Famine to be "God's retribution", and he urged a policy of 'emigrate or starve' - that is the policy Britain adopted - that is their culpability - it never becomes more complicated than that.
I haven't read enough to make up my mind one way or the other as to whether it was deliberate, or just Imperial profiteering, but it is one or the other - or maybe a mixture of both.   
You refuse to address the actions taken by the British government - you have been requested to do so several times.
You refuse even to acknowledge Trevelyan's advice to the British Government - you have been requested to do so several times.
Until you do both you have no case - one more time, it never becomes more complicated than that.
Have a good day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 01:15 AM

Racism is a form of hate.
Back then everyone was racist. They believed in racial superiority.
One bit in one magazine is not evidence that Ireland was hated.


Culpability is disputed.
You can not deny or challenge that fact.

That is my case, and far from being dead it is the undeniable truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 01:11 PM

And by the way - I'm fascinated to learn that racism isn't hatred - especially that which compares human beings to dangerous animals - it does explain your behaviour on this forum
Lie down - your case is dead
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:54 PM

Jim, I quoted her in context.
She said that revisionism was dominant and long had been.
You can not deny or challenge that fact.

Culpability is disputed.
You can not deny or challenge that fact.


Piss off Keith - your case is dead

This is my case, and far from being dead it is the undeniable truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:38 PM

IF NOT, I AM DONE.

Promises, promises. Less talk, more action, fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:29 PM

In fact - stop altogether - you are a racist turd
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:28 PM

And stop changing the subject
You have selected quotes from Kinealy out of context and deliberately distorted them to lake your case
Stop lying
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:25 PM

Piss off Keith - your case is dead
We can now you are about to hide behind another word you don't understand and haven't read.
"Blatant, shocking lies Jim."
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive. Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree. Massachusetts?"
Stop lying.
"I said it WAS racist Jim, just not evidence of the Irish being hated."
"Political not racist"
"A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.
-Satire entitled "The Missing Link", from the British magazine Punch, 1862 "
Stop lying
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:04 PM

Jim.
Now you have turned on the Irish, describing them as hate filled anti-British zombies poisoned by their biased education system and comparing their "brainwashing" to what happened in 17th century Salem, Massachusetts; you have included Irish Americans in this attack.
Blatant, shocking lies Jim.

You have excused a notorious account of the Irish from the racist 'Punch' Magazine, as being "not racist",
I said it WAS racist Jim, just not evidence of the Irish being hated.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 11:45 AM

Jim, I am not discussing the famine, just the historiography of it.
(Greg, I know of no books on the historiography of the famine.
DO YOU?
Recommend a couple why don't you?)

My only claim is that culpability is disputed.
Kinealy agrees and adds that revisionism (no culpability)is dominant.

DO YOU CHALLENGE IT JIM?
IF NOT, I AM DONE.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 11:30 AM

Whoops - missed abit
"Yet it is not only the number of people who died which makes the Famine such a tragedy. It is also the way in which they lost their lives. Death from famine or famine-related diseases is slow, painful and obscene.
Moreover, much of this death from the Famine need not have taken place. The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity.
In the face of food shortages, relief provided by the government was inadequate. Imports of food were too small to meet the scale of the problem. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain.
This year marked the 150th anniversary of 'Black '47' – the single year when disease, suffering and mortality were at their highest. But the Famine did not end in 1847. In 1849, the level of mortality was almost as great as it had been in 1847."
Christine Kinealy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 11:30 AM

400

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 11:20 AM

"Despite the shortages, the British government decided not to interfere in the marketplace to provide food to the poor Irish, but left food import and distribution to free market forces. Moreover, they allowed foodstuffs – vast amounts of foodstuffs – to be exported from Ireland. Merchants made large profits while people starved. At the same time, public works, which entailed hard physical labor building roads that led nowhere and walls that surrounded nothing, were made the primary form of relief. By the end of 1846, deaths from hunger, exhaustion and famine-related diseases were commonplace. No part of the country, from Belfast to Skibbereen, had escaped."
Christine Kinealy

"An even larger relief organization was the British Relief Association. It was formed in January 1847 by Lionel de Rothschild, a Jewish banker in London. Again, its fundraising activities were international, with donations being received from locations as diverse as Venezuela, Australia, South Africa, Mexico, Russia and Italy. In total, over 15,000 individual contributions were sent to the Association, and approximately £400,000 was raised. This money was entrusted to a Polish count, Paul de Strzelecki, a renowned scientist and explorer. He traveled to Counties Mayo and Sligo in 1847, where he established schools at which free food was given to the local children. Despite falling victim to 'famine fever,' he survived and remained working with the poor in Ireland.
In August 1848, when the Association's funds ran out, the schools were closed despite promises from the Prime Minister that they would be supported. Strzelecki refused to accept any money for his work, but he was knighted by the British government in 1848. Ironically, the only other person to be knighted for his work during the Famine was Charles Trevelyan, Permanent Secretary at the Treasury, who was renowned for his parsimonious approach to relief."
Christine Kinealy

"A key objective of Irish revisionism was to exorcise the ghost of nationalism from historical discourse and to replace it with historical narratives that persistently played down the separateness and the trauma, and derided the heroes and villains of Irish history".
Christine Kinealy

Issue of culpability avoided
Thirdly, the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts. Moreover, both the landlords and the British government have been rehabilitated; the former frequently being shown as hapless victims themselves, and the latter, as being ignorant of the real state of affairs in Ireland, and lacking both the financial and administrative capability to alleviate the situation anyway.
Christine Kinealy

To make this possible, a comprehensive and nation-wide machinery was created within Ireland in the space of only a few months. As a consequence of this scheme, mortality began to fall as, for the first and only time during the Famine, the problem of hunger was confronted directly.
But the soup kitchens were only ever intended to be a short-term measure, and after the government closed them in the autumn of 1847, mortality again rose sharply. This brief episode, however, in which free food was provided on a nation-wide basis, demonstrated that the administrative capability to provide relief existed. Unfortunately for the poor of Ireland, the political and ideological will to continue the scheme did not exist.
Christine Kinealy

No practical impediment to government intervention
Fifthly, there is a persistent claim that the British government in the 1840s possessed neither the practical nor the political means to either close the ports or import additional foodstuffs to Ireland. This is nonsense. Throughout the eighteenth century, and in 1817, 1822 and indeed, in 1845, the Irish and British governments imported food for resale in Ireland. In the subsistence crisis of 1782, an embargo was placed on the export of grain from Ireland, despite the opposition of Irish grain merchants. Furthermore, in the subsistence crisis of 1845 to 1847, which occurred throughout Europe, governments throughout the continent responded by temporarily closing their ports to exports (Portugal, Turkey, Russia, amongst others). This was, in fact, a traditional response to Famine conditions. Also, as the Corn Law crisis proved, there was no practical or ideological impediment to government intervention in the market place when it suited the purposes of the government.
Christine Kinealy

In regard to the Famine, INTERPRETATIONS WHICH HINTED AT THE ISSUE OF CULPABILITY OF THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT WERE PIGEON-HOLED AS BEING APOLOGISTS AND PERPETRATORS OF THE NATIONALIST STRUGGLE. Perhaps this accounts for the dearth of serious scholarly research on the Famine, most notably by historians within Ireland.
Christine Kinealy

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 10:49 AM

she has not written a single book on historiography.

And you have not READ a single book on historiograpy, and wouldn't recognize historiography should it rear up on its hind legs and bite you on the arse.

I am done with this discussion.

'Tis a consumnation devoutly to be wish'd. Thank God, and not before time.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 10:43 AM

Greg, she has not written a single book on historiography.
She has written about it in History Ireland, and I quoted her.

Jim you post lies about me when you have nothing else.

In this whole discussion you can not challenge a single thing that I have said.
Instead you claim I have posted wrong or bad things in ancient threads.
I never have.
I do not hold the views you ascribe to me.

Now, if you can not challenge my and Kinealy's claim that historians are divided and revisionists are dominant, I am done with this discussion.

ARE YOU CHALLENGING IT???????

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 09:52 AM

I do not think Kinealy contradicts in her books what she says in History Ireland

You do not think.... period. Try READING her books. Then you'll find out. Or, more likely, you'll simply dismiss it, a susual, if not in accord wioth your pre-concieve notions.

Fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 08:45 AM

Good luck with the 400 by the way - that appears to be your sole objective in participating in subjects you know nothing about - scoring points
"And what do point mean - points mean prizes!!"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 08:32 AM

You have a list of the people you have targeted,
You have been given examples of what the historians you haven't read have said - you choose to ignore them
You do what you do and you are what you are.
What false accusations would they be?
All those 'false accusations' have been reproduced for you over and over again and you have confirmed that you still hold those opinions.
Your Irish opinions come in quotes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 07:54 AM

And ... you always make those false accusations against me when you can not challenge what I actually say.
Here, you can not challenge the fact that historians are divided.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 07:28 AM

Jim, my only case in this whole discussion is that historians are divided on the issue of culpability.

Why does that make you so angry when it is the simple truth?

I have never even expressed an opinion about the famine, except to describe it as a human catastrophe.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 04:24 AM

This really has gone far enough
In the past you have mounted campaigns against entire communities and races, describing Muslims in general as potential terrorists and British Pakistanis in particular as "implanted cultural" perverts.
Now you have turned on the Irish, describing them as hate filled anti-British zombies poisoned by their biased education system and comparing their "brainwashing" to what happened in 17th century Salem, Massachusetts; you have included Irish Americans in this attack.
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive. Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree. Massachusetts?"
You have excused a notorious account of the Irish from the racist 'Punch' Magazine, as being "not racist", so presumably you believe it to be an accurate physical description of my predecessors
"A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.
-Satire entitled "The Missing Link", from the British magazine Punch, 1862 "
Your mate had described those who were forced to flee the Famine, again my predecessors, as:
" a combination of indolence, ignorance and intransigence the necessary changes were actively resisted
This latter included the Scots who wre forced to flee Scoctland in similar circumstances in that description.
This is not only racism run riot, but it is an open attack on very many members of this forum
My family originated in Ireland - they were refugees from the Famine.
Many of my family`members received ad are still receiving Irish educations, aunts, uncles, cousins, and their children and grandchildren.
This is also the case with native Irish and Irish Americans who contribute to this thread - so your arguments are directed at all of us.
To back up your arguments you have concocted a theory based on historians you have not read (admitted), and cannot possibly their views on these matters.
The irony of all this of course, is that having accused the Irish of inbred hatred, you display more personal hatred in a handful of postings than I have ever encountered in a lifetime of arguments and discussions.
If I feel the anger that I do about your racist attacks n me, my family and my neighbours, I cannot begin to imagine how a Muslim and especially a British Pakistani would feel if they stumbled on one of your racist diatribes.
I have always admired the cosmopolitan nature of this forum and have been grateful to read and share views with people from other backgrounds, cultures and races.
I don't believe there are any Muslim members of this forum - little wonder!
Should you be allowed to persist in your efforts, Mudcat stands to be turned into an exclusively W.A.S.P site.
Should the administrators of this site consider closing this thread, I request that it be left open long enough for it to be appreciated in all its full glory before doing so.
As a footnote, I have just been informed by a kind forum fairy that someone has set up a fake Flickr account (I don't have one) on my behalf containing Irish military memorabilia - it seems to be the level of intelligence these things operate at.
I firmly suggest to those in charge that, should you attempt to indulge in racist and cultural attacks such as these in future, especially when they involve other forum members, you should be stopped immediately and, should you persist, that you be barred from membership of this forum altogether
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 01:49 AM

My interest here is historiography, not history.
Have you read any books on that?
Are there any?

I do not think Kinealy contradicts in her books what she says in History Ireland.
Does she Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 06:05 PM

Ah but Greg, her essay in History Today is online

No no, fuckwit: her BOOKS - not an op-ed article.

Go read a couple & get back to us, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 04:26 PM

Well Jim, I think she said that the revisionist view is "dominant."
Are you claiming I am wrong??

No.
You can not.

I also think that she said, "the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts."
Are you claiming I am wrong??

No.
You can not.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 03:46 PM

"Do you believe that the British Government carried out a deliberate policy of genocide in Ireland between the years 1845 and 1851?"
"a simple YES or NO."
Do you still beat your wife - a simple yes or no will do fine?
Now you really are showing your prattish desperation.
I believe the policy adopted by the British Government gave rise to the outcome - one million plus deaths and mass emigration for generations to come.
Trevelyan - the instigator of Britain's policy, made it quite clear that he detested the Irish, that he believed the Famine to be divine retribution and that the consequences of the Famine would be in the interests of the British Empire.
Whether the British Government had thought through their policies of non-action to their logical conclusion remains a moot point - the fact that those policies wrought the holocaust that it did does not - that's what Britain did (or didn't do - that's what happened)
Why the **** are you asking me to repeat what I have already said several times - you are now sounding like another of Keith's moronic Daleks?
You refuse to respond to Britain's policy - fine, no answer is answer enough for me.
You have flipped and somersaulted around Trevelyan's attitude to the Irish - all a fake, just his opinion, nothing to do with British policy.
Trevelyan was Britain's mouthpiece on Irish policy, they appointed him, they honoured him for what he had done for Ireland - they were responsible for what happened in Ireland.
There is a logic behind the claim that what Britain did was deliberate - it suited Britain to have s subservient colony as a neighbour, but even if it was not a deliberate act of Genocide, it was an act of Genocide through malicious inaction - take your pick.
Not only do you still have to respond to the actual facts of British policy - you have yet to even mention the half century of evictions that consolidated what the Famine had done.
on't you dare suggest I have hidden behind cut-'n-pasted you distorting shit - most of those I have put up are taken from Keith's links - and eve if they are not, they beat your distorted and unqualified waffle hands down.
Now about that wife-beating - yes or no?
"Ireland had up until 1801 been self-governing, the fact that it was corrupt and inefficient through a mixture of indolence and ignorance was no fault of mainland Britain,"
There we go - Trevelyan writ large - thought you said I was making it all up - you'll be claiming that all Irishmen were simian-like braideads who have been brainwashed into hating Britain next - just like our learned-without ever reading a single work Keith; but there agai, he's already told us he is infallible
"Ah but Greg, her essay in History Today is online and we have discussed it in detail."
to lying - you obviously have not read it, let alone discussed it - very selective quoting is not discussion - neither is ignoring everything she wrote because it doesn't suit your anti-Irish racist agenda.
And has said everything you have not - callous indifference, failure to apportion blame, romanticism rather than finger-pointing....
It's all there, should you ever venture to read more than one paragraph at a time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 12:52 PM

Nobody wh has never read a single book on the subject, or has never had the interest to have done so can possibly know anything whatever on this subject
"DENY THAT"

Yes I deny that.
I know for an absolute fact that the issue of culpability is disputed.
With all your reading, do you deny that?

I know for an absolute fact that Kinealy, who is in a position to know, says that revisionism is "dominant."
With all your reading, do you deny that.

You only read nationalist historians anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 12:45 PM

Ah but Greg, her essay in History Today is online and we have discussed it in detail.
She says,"Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s."

As you say, "Fuckwit."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 10:44 AM

It was Kinealy who stated that they are a majority.

Ah, but Keith: you're never actually READ Kinealy, so you know bugger all about what she said or didn't say.

Fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 10:15 AM

Christmas:

Do you believe that the British Government carried out a deliberate policy of genocide in Ireland between the years 1845 and 1851?

No vast tracts of cut'n'pastes just a simple YES or NO.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 10:12 AM

By the way - you are still attempting to talk down to people from the hole you have dug for yourself - entertainment value at least
" that would appear to be an expression of someone's opinion"
Yup - a government appointee put in charge of feeding the people he hated
Kicking the milkman's horse again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 10:04 AM

"Jim they are taught to blame the British government of the day"
If you read what your own historians say (you obviously don't ever read your own links) you will find that their point is that causes have been ignored and blame not dealt with - just effects.
Nobody wh has never read a single book on the subject, or has never had the interest to have done so can possibly know anything whatever on this subject
"DENY THAT"
Still nothing on Government policy Sergrant major - just more diversive waffle
As you were - so to speak
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 09:50 AM

1: "Ireland was Britain's responsibility and they delibarately abused that responsibility fot the 'good of Empire'."

Nope the Irish themselves, must bear responsibility for the condition of the country, its land tenure agreements and how they viewed its management, and how they ran their estates and farms. The British Government did not have any responsibility to any land-owner in the United Kingdom to ensure that he ran his estates effectively or efficiently. There was no nanny society in the 19th century, no BIG GOVERNMENT.

2: "The Irish economy, agrarian and rural, was as it was under British rule - It wasn't changed in any way because it suited the Empire to leave it as it was - Britain's breadbasket.

There were no attempts at modernisation - it remained a basic peasant economy - and referred to as such.

That situation was prevalent throughout the Empire - each colony alloted its role in feeding the beast.

Any attempts to alter that situation were firmly and bloodily imposed. "

No Christmas, wrong on every single point:

- Ireland had up until 1801 been self-governing, the fact that it was corrupt and inefficient through a mixture of indolence and ignorance was no fault of mainland Britain, or it's Government. Various Commissions had looked into the questions with a view to improvement subsequent to the Act of Union in 1801, the Devon Commission (1845) being only one of them. By the way Christmas what you are presenting here is a contradiction. IF, as you claim, the British Government had set up Ireland's economy to be agrarian and rural for the benefit of Britain or the Empire, then they would be, by default, acting against their own interests surely to destroy what they had supposedly created through deliberate mass emigration – True? Yet that is what you say they did. Can't have both must be one or the other.

- Tell me Christmas what great Government funded "improvement" programmes were instigated by way of "modernization" elsewhere in Great Britain and throughout the Empire from say from the 1700s onwards? You see I don't think there were any, all investments that tended towards improvements and modernization be they industrial or agricultural were privately funded in those days. Take the sub-continent of India for example. At the time of the Mogul Empire only 5% of the land was irrigated by 1850 over 25% of it was – all financed by the private enterprises that would benefit from the increased production brought about by the improvements. So much for your contention that - " That situation was prevalent throughout the Empire - each colony alloted its role in feeding the beast." - British investment in India was massive.

- Examples please of instances where: " Any attempts to alter that situation were firmly and bloodily imposed. " - I won't hold my breath, the statement doesn't even make any sense.

3: "Britain simply refused to deal with a famine which had was the consequence of an economy it had imposed on Ireland "

The economy of Ireland was precisely that of the one that had been "imposed" by the Irish land-owners prior to the Act of Union. By the mid-1800s, after a string of successive famines and food shortages, it was patently obvious that change was required but due to a combination of indolence, ignorance and intransigence the necessary changes were actively resisted (The opposite was true 140 years prior to that in Scotland were the improvements brought about through England's agricultural revolution were fully embraced and welcomed, Scotland having just lost about 20% of its population to famine.).

4: "Government employees - Civil Servants - DO NOT MAKE GOVERNMENT POLICY" - Teribus

"I've just said that - keep up" – Jim Carroll

Really Christmas?? Care to explain this earlier exchange then:

""The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"

Don't know about you Christmas but that would appear to be an expression of someone's opinion " - Teribus

"That was the opinion of a policy MAKING Government employee" – Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 09:23 AM

"It was as responsible for assisting the Famine victims as it would have been if it had taken place in Manchester, Birmingham or Bristol;

Apples to Oranges Christmas.

Tell me what sort of famine, similar to the one that struck Ireland, could have struck Manchester, Birmingham or Bristol? Noting of course that the Irish cities of Cork, Dublin and Belfast actually increased in size during the famine, industrialised Belfast hardly felt the effects of it.

it chose not to help other than to provide financial assistance to leave Ireland"

Really?? So no Indian Corn was purchased, no additional workhouses were built, in 1848 no 227,329 people were receiving relief in Irish workhouses, no three-quarters of a million people had been provided with food and a daily wage, three million people were not being fed. The only assistance given was in the form of assisted passage eh? What complete and utter rot, once again nothing but deliberate misrepresentation and lies.

Any idea what the most effective way to deal with a famine is according to various UN Aid Agencies Christmas? You should look it up it might surprise you (Hint: It has got S.F.A. to do with providing food, which they reckon is the worst thing you can do.)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 09:13 AM

More of the "most historians" bullshit, fuckwit?

It was Kinealy who stated that they are a majority.
It is ungracious of you to call such an eminent historian "fuckwit" Greg.
"Fuckwit" compared to who?
You?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 09:09 AM

Jim they are taught to blame the British government of the day, not the "English as a race" !
Deny that?

It is automatically assumed that the responsibility for the Famine lies with the British

No it is not!
Not by the majority of historians.
It is disputed.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 09:02 AM

a version of events that most historians do not support?

More of the "most historians" bullshit, fuckwit?

Jaysus.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 08:40 AM

"As for your concern about historians.
Can we clear this thing up about education and historians once and for all.
Historians today have slated past historians for dealing only with the effects of the famine - a tug on the emotional (National) heartstrings, rather than examining why what happened, happened.
Both Kinealy and Neilson seem to be arguing that nobody, to date, has dealt in any detail with the causes of the Famine.
Kinealy says that the reason for this, and the reason for why so many historians continue to do so, is to run the risk of handing the dissident Republican factions propaganda ammunition - a hint that she believes that the facts actually bear out the Republican (political) case.
It is automatically assumed that the responsibility for the Famine lies with the British - how could it be otherwise; Britain ruled Ireland and controlled its economy.
It was as responsible for assisting the Famine victims as it would have been if it had taken place in Manchester, Birmingham or Bristol; it chose not to help other than to provide financial assistance to leave Ireland
Any material assistance for the starving Irish came from charities such as the Quakers, and in some case, even this came with the price of changing your religion in exchange for a bowl of soup (not from the Quakers, I hasten to add).
This said, in the half a century I have been personally associated with Ireland, I have never encountered a scrap of anti-English racist abuse; that period includes the 20 years of partition and sectarian -generated 'Troubles'
We, and dozens more English people visited this town to see it draped in black flags at the time the hunger strikers were dying and received the same welcome we have always received.
This isn't to say that the Irish don't hate our politicians - don't we all?
Apart from one exception (itinerancy) the only place there is a significant race or sectarian problem in in the 'British' north, with arson attacks on the homes of asylum seekers and annual aggressive marches.
It is a scurrilous lie to suggest that Irish people have been taught, or believe in any way, that the English as a race are to blame for the Famine.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 08:14 AM

Jim, do you deny that Irish schoolkids were taught to blame Britain by government decree?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 08:05 AM

1: "You have been given the chronological list of the Great Irish Famine containing further statements by Trevelyan stating that the British economy was more important than feeding the Irish people (Government official policy)"

Christmas, apart from defence of the realm, what do you think the prime responsibility of the Government of any country is? Of course the economy of the country (Population of the whole at the time being some 25 million) was more important than feeding approximately 2 million people – If you disagree with that then you must be one of those clowns who when faced with any real problem advocates throwing the baby out with the bath water – You would seriously recommend putting 23 million at risk in your efforts to save 2 million?

On the strength of that British economy in the period we are talking about, you really should do some research '46; '47 & '48 Great Britain went through a financial crisis roughly equivalent to that recently experienced in 2008 – not waffle, merely a matter of recorded fact.

Also a matter of record is the fact that by the mid-1800s the Empire was actually costing Great Britain money.

2: As to you never claiming that there was a deliberate policy of genocide, or ethnic cleansing? Please explain your references to it, all taken directly from your contributions to this thread?

A: "I really did begin to wonder whether somebody who confesses to never having read a book on the subject really does know more than every single contributor to this forum, including those of us whose understanding of it is based on the fact that many of our ancestors (not only mine) fled from Ireland directly because of England's genocidal policy – whew what a relief!!"

B: "coming from a man in his position, that can only be construed as Government policy, in which case, The Famine was used as an exercise in ethnic cleansing."

C: "That policy was made clear by Britain'r representative in Ireland, Sir Charles Trevelyan' in a letter - it is indisputable British policy.

Your breathtaking cowardice in even acknowledging this statement, let alone trying to explain away the genocidal implications of it "

D: "John Mitchel, the Young Ireland leader, transported in 1848 to Van Diemens Land, had a different view, calling the famine "an artificial famine. Potatoes failed in like manner all over Europe; yet there was no famine save in Ireland. The Almighty, indeed, sent the potato blight, but the English created the famine".

E: "In a way, all historians are 'revisionists' on the subject - none of them have dealt with the Trevelyan letter and its implications of deliberate ethnic cleansing."

F: "I personally can't see how such a statement from Britain's powerful representative in Ireland cannot possibly be construed in any other way than 'ethnic cleansing and holocaust'

G: "It was the genocidal inaction that every single historian who has written on the subject has condemned - the racism that was behind it just explained that inaction.

H: "Because of the way the Famine was mishandled (some believe deliberately) Ireland was never able to recover it"

I: "You have described The Famine as "unprecedented" - it was.
The way it was handled was Genocidal "

3: As far as your attacks on Keith go, having gone through the exchanges on this thread I have found that at no time at all in any of his posts to this thread has he ever stated either of the following views:

A: "All you have ever said is "Britain didn't do it"

B: "from the start your line was that Britain was in no way responsible for the Famine"

You always bitterly resent it with complete and utter indignation when people put words in your mouth, yet you are not beyond inventing and quoting arguments and comments for people that they have never espoused - truly despicable behaviour.

Simple question for you Christmas that only requires a YES or NO answer.

Do you believe that the British Government carried out a deliberate policy of genocide in Ireland between the years 1845 and 1851?

No vast tracts of cut'n'pastes just a simple YES or NO.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 07:05 AM

I obviously can't speak for Ireland, but I can say that the USA and NY in particular have a long history of immigration... and many of those new immigrants came because of lack of options back home... and some to save their lives.

As for your concern about historians... we have school boards that want to teach creationism as a science and plenty that view the War Between the States... aka the American Civil War... as strictly a matter of state's rights - slavery had NOTHING to do with it. And despite photographic evidence and still a few eyewitnesses, there are those who claim the Nazi purges & Holocaust is a hoax.

Perhaps a population that has many residents and their families who have suffered injustice in their original homelands might just have a different perspective than your historians... who may be in the majority now but are not without opposition. Who can say what another 50 years will bring?

From AP at the time:

ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) _ New York school children must be taught about the Irish potato famine under a bill Gov. George Pataki plans to sign Wednesday in a New York City ceremony with Irish President Mary Robinson.

Pataki counsel Michael Finnegan said the law will be the first in the nation to require teaching about the famine, which killed or uprooted millions in Ireland during the 1840s.

The bill mandates that the famine be portrayed as a human rights violation akin to genocide, slavery and the Holocaust _ subjects the state has mandated students be taught since 1994.

Some legislators complained the requirement will be another burden for already failing schools.

Republican Assemblyman John Faso of Columbia County, just south of Albany, called the bill a ``silly'' exercise in political correctness.

But Democratic Assemblyman Joseph Crowley of Queens, the bill's prime sponsor, said the famine has relevance in today's world.

``Hunger is still being used as a tool of subjugation, as a means of keeping people down, in places like Somalia, Ethiopia and China,'' Crowley said.

While triggered by a blight of the potato crop starting in 1845, Irishmen and historians have argued for generations over whether the attitude of the ruling British government contributed to the misery.

An estimated 1 million of Ireland's 7 million people died during the crisis _ some say more _ and 2 million or more fled the island. Many of those refugees settled in New York.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 07:01 AM

The idea of brainwashing children is a disgusting one and anybody who suggests if has been carried out systematically by any Government or political influence is a disgusting individual.
Irish people, as a whole, are an extremely hospitable and welcoming group of people and for somebody who has never read a book to suggest that they have been conned by any political agenda or are unaware of their own history is disgusting arrogance.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 06:41 AM

Why decree they teach a version of events that most historians do not support?
The result in Ireland has been that many people, like Jim, are unaware that the issue is even disputed.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 06:27 AM

Since it's been awhile since my school days in NYS, I had to check out the 1996 curriculum change mentioned above

here is a link:   books.google.com/books?isbn=0299187144

however, the CHANGES made also include study of the holocaust and the historic treatment of blacks in the US. Hardly singling out Britain or promoting hate mongering. Instead the stated goal is to make students aware of how prevailing attitudes coupled with government actions or inactions can contribute to human suffering.

They didn't remove the American Revolution or FDR's Lend Lease Program... they just added a few more areas to be covered... but don't worry, I'm sure our kids have managed to sleep through them as well as they have the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 06:00 AM

Game, set and match
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 05:59 AM

hate filled zombie mobs of Irish and Irish-American brainwashed schoolchildren

Where did that come from?
I did state that by decree a version of history had to be taught in Irish and NY State schools.
I did not make it up. I gave reliable sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 05:56 AM

The issue isn't 19th century racism in Britain, but your 21st century support for it

I never have and never would, and to say I do is an attempt to smear with lies anyone who challenges your view on anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 04:36 AM

The issue isn't 19th century racism in Britain, but your 21st century support for it - a simple answer to your question.
I can't imagine how you are going to deal with you hate filled zombie mobs of Irish and Irish-American brainwashed schoolchildren
It really is difficult to unsay what has been said on open forum, isn't it?
Too late, too late the maiden cried
Have a good day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 04:09 AM

Keep it up Keith - you're doing a grand job
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 04:04 AM

Views held then were undoubtedly racist.
People believed in racial superiority in those days.
Not just in Britain but everywhere.

But, there was no hatred of the Irish in Britain.
At that time, the most celebrated national hero, Wellington, was Irish as were the best writers.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 03:56 AM

"Please remind me what it was."
That you regard comparing Irish famine refugees seeking to earn a living in England after an inconceivable holocaust which brought about the deaths of over as million of their fellow-countrymen, as "not racist" will do for starters.   
"A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.
-Satire entitled "The Missing Link", from the British magazine Punch, 1862 "
That you let pass on the nod the fact that contained in that description, which you describe as "not racist" is a clear indication that Britain regarded all foreigners, especially those of a different colour as being on the same level as animals.
"A creature manifestly between the GORILLA AND THE NEGRO
That you pass off the Irish and Irish American populations, particularly schoolchildren, as hate-filled morons, comparable to dementedly murderous seventeenth-century religious fanatics who allowed themselves to be whipped into frenzied mobs of killers, just about adds the topping to your racist concoction.
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive.
Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree - Massachusetts?"
Many thanks for further confirmation to a long -held opinion.
All I need to make my day is for you blustering, bullshitting friend to back you up in your opinion.... but I doubt even he would go as far as you have. whatever he may believe on the subject.
This has bee a good start to the day - I wonder what the rest of it will bring.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 02:24 AM

Can you say what it was Greg.
Of course not.
"Fuckwit."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 06:02 PM

Not funny.

Merely confirmation of intrasnsigent fuckwitism on the part of our resident fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 04:13 PM

Reading Keith's take on Johnny Foreigner reminds me of listening to Nigel Farage in debate yesterday.

Funny.
I can not remember saying anything about any.
Please remind me what it was.

Confident prediction- you can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 03:41 PM

"Reading Keith's take on Johnny Foreigner reminds me of listening to Nigel Farage in debate yesterday"
What kept you Muskie - he's been at it for years?
Nice comparison though!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 09:57 AM

Reading Keith's take on Johnny Foreigner reminds me of listening to Nigel Farage in debate yesterday.

Er..

Oh.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 09:35 AM

Sorry - missed a bit
"A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.
-Satire entitled "The Missing Link", from the British magazine Punch, 1862 "
Racist, not political - and aimed directly at Irish Famine survivors - I'd be interested to learn of British labourers described in such a way - won't hold my breath though.
I'll link us to your 'British Fascist' statements if you will categorically confirm here that you DID NOT describe the outpourings of an extremist anti-Semitic British Fascist group preparing to form a provisional Government "for when Hitler won the war" at the time that millions of Jews were being gassed as "harmless".
Otherwise - my statement stands and I have no intentions of providing you with another outlet for your attention-seeking gibberish.
Now - the non-racist Punch magazine and examples of British workers being described as "A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 09:23 AM

"Punch caricatured everyone like that."
You mean like this?
"Changing a bit from a deliberate policy of genocide I see Christmas."
I've never claimed it was a definite Genocide policy - I said so when I gave my view on the Coogan book - inconclusive.
I say that whether it was deliberate or not, it was genocidal in effect - Trevelyan's appointment and the government's policy STILL UNCOMMENTED ON BY YOU makes it probable that it was deliberate, but whatever the case, there were a million corpses to whom id didn't matter one way or the other.
Britain could have helped, they chose not to, just as you could comment on the facts of British policy but choose not to.
Doesn't matter in either case, you, like your 'fick' mate, have been blown out of the water.
Answer the point or crawl down the hole you have dug for yourself
Jimmy, Jimbo, Christmas, whatever you prefer, you little bar-room brigadeer you

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 09:05 AM

please ask me to link to that particularly unsavoury discussion again

Yes please Jim.

Punch caricatured everyone like that.
In the same edition your quote came from, a few pages further on an Englishman in a top hat is a gorilla.
Of your list, only one was from Punch and not America.
The Punch one was suggesting Britain was creating Frankenstein's monster in Ireland.
Political not racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 08:56 AM

"Government employees - Civil Servants - DO NOT MAKE GOVERNMENT POLICY - they didn't in the 1840s and they don't now - they never have."

Political power exists throughout any government... though it does not trickle down to the lower levels of civil service. But since I have worked for a state government the past thirty years, I can tell you point blank that you do not have to be a hereditary or elected member of a government to have power. A bureaucracy takes on a life of its own.

The rank & file are under the control of political appointees who can and do set policy. And they usually follow the wishes of their political patrons. If you want to kill a mandate... stall or underfund its implementation so that it never takes effect... at least during the current administration. New administration... new priorities.

You are like one of the ten blind men trying to describe an elephant by examining just one part of the beast and then making their pronouncement. Some of us are trying to view it as a whole before drawing conclusions... but then we aren't invested in trying to absolve anyone either... perhaps we are getting too close to home for you? This seems to be very personal for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 08:34 AM

Changing a bit from a deliberate policy of genocide I see Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 08:14 AM

Sorry - forgot
The laissez-faire policy that allowed merchants to send famine relief ships back and forth up to four times while the Irish starved, in order to elevate prices - that came from Mrs Smith's "definitive" work as well
Yours in anticipation
Jimmy

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 08:09 AM

"You provide links to them and I will."
Sorry you'll have to buy the relevant books for the first and last
You have numerous quotes available to, including the one from your "definitive" history of the Famine 'The Great Hunger'
"The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"
Are you claiming that this was not Trevelyan's opinion and that it was all a fake - you've just been saying that it was only his opinion which didn't have anything to do with British policy - make up your mind boy.
In the end, it doesn't matter anyway - it was British policy that decimated the Irish - Trevelyan was merely a suitable tool to put that policy into operation.
Warehouse closures? Workhouse closures? Continued exports? Mass enforced emigration? murderous coffin-ships? laissez-faire policy? Half a century of mass Eviction? fabulously wealthy Empire well capable of assisting the Irish to survive?
Is this all a lie or just not worth consideration
That hole you are standing in is getting deeper - please keep digging.
Jimmy Christmas

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 07:54 AM

Piss off Keith - you have just been given a cutting from the Magazine itself - in case you missed it -
There are plenty - a book full of them entitled "The Same Old Story" – Paddy the Pig, Paddy, The Irish Frakenstein, Paddy the ungrateful child.
You rejected the ones were given to you because some of them were American
Do not be so stupid.
Some here depict the Irish as pigs and as sub-human animals, others as ungrateful children for wanting home rule, opposing conscription.
Take your ***** pick
Punch's attitude to the Irish was openly racist – one more time
As you are a declared racist, it is little wonder that what they had to say about the Irish is as "harmless" to you as was Britain's wartime pro-Hitler fascists (please ask me to link to that particularly unsavoury discussion again)
Are you not surprised that nobody takes you seriously
Now please get out of the way and let Terrytoon tell us why Britain's policy in Ireland was all a 'Republican myth'
Jim Carroll
http://punch.photoshelter.com/gallery/Ireland-Cartoons/G0000tcWkXyP4OHo/

http://www.irishhistorian.com/Punch/Punch_Famine.html

http://www.irishhistorian.com/Punch/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 07:33 AM

"Read the Trevelyan letter, the previous long letter and the quote from his later autobiography"

You provide links to them and I will.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 06:29 AM

There are plenty of examples of racist caricatures from Punch - they were noted for it - go look for them youurself, you moron.

This claim was made on the earlier famine thread, but could not be substantiated.
Can you produce an example or not?

Here is Punch's view of English poor.

http://johnsnow.matrix.msu.edu/images/fullbanner6.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 06:28 AM

Crossposted
"Trevelyan must be viewed as being relevant...."
They are relevant because they were the policies carried out - as you refuse even to acknowledge thos policies - it seems pretty pointless to enter ainto a battle ow words with you - show those were not his/their policies and you might have something to say
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 06:18 AM

"Government employees - Civil Servants - DO NOT MAKE GOVERNMENT POLICY"
I've just said that - keep up - please stop trying to talk doewn to me - you look silly trying to do so from the hole you've managed to dig yourself into.
The British Government acted on implicitly on Trevelyan's advice, but in the end it was their responsibility for what happened - just said that as well
"Perhaps you could produce some."
You really have never read anything have you
There are plenty of examples of racist caricatures from Punch - they were noted for it - go look for them youurself, you moron.
In the meantime - this'll do as a summing up.
"A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.
-Satire entitled "The Missing Link", from the British magazine Punch, 1862 "
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 06:09 AM

Your bias, bigotry and hypocrisy are showing again Christmas.

Care to explain your stance that certain things said by Trevelyan must be viewed as being relevant and indicative while other things stated by the same man must be viewed as mere "mouthings"?

The Trevelyan Letter of October 1846 I have copied and pasted in full in my last post - how about you doing the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 05:07 AM

it was presented as a picture of the Irish people in Punch Magazine - still plenty of examples to be had.

Perhaps you could produce some.
I would produce as many caricatures of English poor as of Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 05:03 AM

Christmas:

Government employees - Civil Servants - DO NOT MAKE GOVERNMENT POLICY - they didn't in the 1840s and they don't now - they never have. Government policy is formulated and set by the elected Government of the country, that policy having been set it is then handed to the Civil Service whose duty it is ensure that it is implemented as directed. Now IF you have evidence to correct that statement then please provide it. If you cannot do that, then please STFU about civil servants setting and dictating policy. Should you continue to insist that the Government's policy was set by Trevelyan during the period he spent at the Treasury then you are knowingly and deliberately telling a lie.

Guest mg That was basically what was done, once the problem got to the point that basic relief (i.e. providing food) was not coping. The logistical problems of getting food to the people were too great so the people came to where the food could be delivered. Trouble was that having got there they could not just simply stay there and be fed, their presence combined with the continuing influx of those seeking help would have rapidly overwhelmed the facilities in place, and that did often happen. A factor that can be seen even today in refugee camps and food distribution centres covering famine zones. So it a staged process had to be created:

1: Initial help - Sustain life
2: Work scheme - Provide money and food, to allow next stage in the process
3: Move - To work in town or city or emigrate

As a Government you do not go to the trouble and the expense of setting that sort of system up if you are trying to implement a deliberate policy of genocide - It just simply would not make any sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 04:49 AM

Read the Trevelyan letter, the previous long letter and the quote from his later autobiography - all of which express a hatred of the Irish people and a belief that The Famine was not only God's punishment for their evil ways but also an opportunity to rid Ireland of dissidents and undesirables
On its own, it wouldn't matter, it was a view shared by many British leaders - it was presented as a picture of the Irish people in Punch Magazine - still plenty of examples to be had.
What is important was, that knowing Trevelyan's views, they appointed him to a position vital to keep the Irish people alive, they backed his every move, they even abandoned Government policy of providing more relief because he opposed it.
Whatever his mouthings on 'helping the poor Irish' he oversaw the death of over a million people and he facilitated the removal from Ireland of more than a million more.
His policy is, as has been stated; close the workhouses, close the foodstores, oppose with military force any attempts by the starving Irish to feed themselves (go and look up the warehouse riots), and force mass emigration.
That was Government policy, pure and simple.
A possible reason for why the British Government adopted that policy can be seen in the later mass evictions, where the poorer farmers were replaced by wealthy profiteering landowners, essentially giving them control of the land most beneficial to The British Empire - a full economic colonisation of Ireland.
Britain was in the position to help allow Ireland survive the Blight with humanitarian aid - it chose not to; instead it backed the market economy and in the course of doing that, decimated Ireland - at the very least, manslaughter in any court.
You have studiously avoided discussing actual British police, toy have refused to comment on the evictions - now you are setting out to make the helmsman of a British policy in Ireland that led to the deaths of over a million people some sort of a humanitarian hero - give us a break and answer the questions (some hope!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 14 - 04:12 AM

"I fear the lack of perspective in on your end... "

Really?? Here are a few examples that indicate the reverse:

1: "Spain & Portugal fluctuated from neutral to allies to opponents... pick a year."

The oldest and most constant alliance in Europe? That between England and Portugal. Spain were allied with the French, motivated by a desire to regain possessions lost to the British during your War of Independence, until Napoleon forced the rightful King of Spain to abdicate and then put his brother on the throne. From 1808, when the British first landed troops in Portugal, until Napoleon's final defeat in 1815, the Spanish were our allies. Your point is irrelevant, and it displays not only lack of perspective but an astonishing lack of knowledge.

2: "so if a pennisula has ports... how many do you think an ISLAND like Ireland has??? Actually, you don't have to guess... just google.. "

No need to guess and it is you who should do the "Googling". Ireland has many ports, it had many ports at the time we are discussing. Only problem was that they happened to be on the wrong side of the country. Again amazing lack of knowledge and understanding of the problems involved.

3: "this is what is relevant: food was exported from Ireland …… it was transported to ports & onto ships for export ….. it was not all grown within a days easy travel to those ports."

Your lack of perspective and knowledge displayed yet again. Over the period of the famine Irish food exports declined greatly and Irish import of food increased dramatically. There is a very good map showing the extent of the effects of the famine. Looking at that map you will see that the areas least affected tended to be the areas close to those eastern ports and the areas that had decent roads.

4: "so I say that it is you who has to explain why food can leave the country, but it too difficult to import & distribute.

or why food grown in Ireland could not have been purchased & distributed locally? or at least transported from the growing areas to those areas of need."

1840s – right?:

- No refrigeration, no freezers, only methods of preserving food are to dry, smoke, pickle or salt – all take time, all cost money to the producer, all require storage, and not all are suitable means of preservation for the country in question because of climate. So generally crops were harvested and beasts slaughtered and they were sold fresh, or in the case of livestock delivered on the hoof in which case the animals need feeding on the way. The decision to do this is not one taken by Government, or dictated by Government policy, they are decisions taken by the man actually farming the land - Not necessarily the owner of the land.

- Ireland's main trading partner has always been mainland Britain (Ireland's entry into the Common Market was conditional on Britain being allowed in). That is why most of Ireland's best developed ports and cities happen to be on its eastern seaboard – Cork, Dungarvan, Waterford, Wexford, Wicklow, Dublin, Balbriggan, Dundalk, Newry, Belfast. It is evident even today, look at the port facilities in Ireland, much better in the east. Of the ports that do exist on Ireland's western seaboard take a look at the bearing strength of the quays there compared to those of its eastern ports, a reason why Ireland's offshore oil & gas industry is located in the Irish sea and not in the Atlantic, and why any exploration off its Atlantic coast is based out of eastern ports.

- Weather, the prevailing winds are South Westerly making the west coast of Ireland stormbound compared to the more sheltered east coast – So where do you expect ports to be built?

- Population, the eastern side of the country was easier to farm and live in, it was therefore more heavily populated than the west – So where do you expect to find the cities and ports?

- Because those ports are trading ports good roads are essential to allow the transport of goods, livestock and crops – So there is a means of distribution for both exports and imports – sound rational enough for you?

- Over on the west coast there were only two ports developed to any extent Limerick and Galway, the hinterland around them did not consist of rich farmland, it had no large export trade, there were no good roads or bridges that provided easy access to that hinterland.

Now does any of that register? Does that answer your questions with regard to distribution – Simply no means of distributing it existed in the period in question in the west of Ireland.

5: "that the casualties were far higher than they should have been, in part because of a prevailing attitude among the upper classes that controlled policy and money."

As apparently none of you have bothered to read the letter that Charles Edward Trevelyan wrote in answer to Lord Mounteagle I will copy it out in full – Now honest opinion having read it through, who is it that Trevelyan is coming down heaviest on in his criticism of the situation in Ireland – the Irish land-owners or their tenants?

To the Right Hon. Lord Mounteagle

My Dear Lord,

I have had the pleasure of receiving your letter dated 1 inst., and before proceeding to the subjects more particularly treated in it, I must beg of you to dismiss all doubt from your mind of the magnitude of the existing calamity and its danger not being fully known and appreciated in Downing Street.

The government establishments are strained to the utmost to alleviate this great calamity and avert this danger, as far as it is in the power of government to do so; and in the whole course of my public service, I never witnessed such entire self-devotion and such hearty and cordial co-operation on the part of officers belonging to different departments met together from different parts of the world, as I see on this occasion.

My purchases are carried to the utmost point short of transferring the famine from Ireland to England and giving rise to a counter popular pressure here, which it would be the more difficult to resist because it would be founded on strong considerations of justice.

But I need not remind your lordship that the ability even of the most powerful government is extremely limited in dealing with a social evil of this description. It forms no part of the functions of government to provide supplies of food or to increase the productive powers of the land. In the great institutions of the business of society, it falls to the share of government to protect the merchant and the agriculturist in the free exercise of their respective employments, but not itself to carry on these employments; and the condition of a community depends upon the result of the efforts which each member of it makes in his private and individual capacity. …

In Ireland the habit has proverbially been to follow a precisely opposite course, and the events of the last six weeks furnish a remarkable illustration of what I do not hesitate to call this defective part of the national character. The nobility and the gentry have met in their respective baronies, and beyond making presentments required by law, they have, with rare exceptions, confined themselves to memorials and deputations calling upon the government to do everything, as if they have themselves no part to perform in this great crisis of the country. The government is expected to open shops for the sale of food in every part of Ireland, to make all the railroads in Ireland, and to drain and improve the whole of the land of Ireland, to the extent of superseding the proprietor in the management of his own estate, and arranging with his tenants the terms on which the rent etc. is to be adjusted. …

I must give expression to my feelings by saying that I think I see a bright light shining in the distance through the dark cloud which at present hangs over Ireland. A remedy has already been applied to that portion of the maladies of Ireland which was traceable to political causes, and the morbid habits which still to a certain extent survive are gradually giving way to more healthy action. The deep and inveterate root of social evil remains, and I hope I am not guilty of irreverence in thinking that, this being altogether beyond the power of man, the cure has been applied by the direct stroke of an all-wise Providence in a manner as unexpected and unthought as it is likely to be effectual. God grant that we may rightly perform our part, and not turn into a curse what was intended for a blessing. The ministers of religion and especially the pastors of the Roman Catholic Church, who possess the largest share of influence over the people of Ireland, have well performed their part; and although few indications appear from any proceedings which have yet come before the public that the landed proprietors have even taken the first step of preparing for the conversion of the land now laid down to potatoes to grain cultivation, I do not despair of seeing this class of society still taking the lead which their position requires of them, and preventing the social revolution from being so extensive as it otherwise must become.

Believe me, my dear lord, yours very sincerely,

C. E. Trevelyan. Treasury, 9 October 1846.

Don't know about you but it seems to me that he is taking the land-owners to task for not playing their part. Not surprising really as the Devon Commission Report of 1845 came to the same conclusion – Use of land in Ireland, i.e. how the land was farmed, had to be addressed and tenancy conditions had to be improved to benefit the tenant were reforms that had to be carried out urgently. It was just after this report was presented that the famine first struck.

Government response was to repeal the Corn Laws which had previously made it impossible to import foreign corn and controlled artificially high prices for farmers throughout the United Kingdom including Ireland – because of the repeal of the existing Corn Laws the market set the price for corn and cereals (laissez-faire) but it made it easier and cheaper to import corn from abroad. The second part, to address tenancy issues required the passing of a Catholic Emancipation Act. Peel's Tory Government was split on the first issue and the Corn Laws were repealed only with the help of the Opposition. When the Catholic Emancipation Bill came before the House, the Whigs led by John Russell acted as the Opposition were supposed to and voted against, while certain members of the Tory Party took revenge on Peel for the repeal of the Corn Laws and voted with the Opposition causing Peels Government to collapse. In the ensuing General Election Lord John Russell's Whigs were elected to form a Government. By this stage the situation in Ireland had completely outstripped any possibility of direct aid coping and it became plainly obvious that people did just have to move, or die.

So far I have not heard one single practicable solution that the Government should have or could have followed, that they were not already doing. Were mistakes made? Yes of course they were. Could it have been managed better? With hindsight yes, but this disaster was unprecedented in scale and not one single government on the planet at the time was geared up to cope with it. Was there a deliberate policy of genocide put into practice by the British Government? No of course there wasn't and every indication of what was done supports that. If there was a deliberate policy of genocide in place you do not:

- Spend £9.95 million pounds on relief efforts;

- Directly feed 3 million people (Who you are supposedly trying to kill);

- Put three-quarter of a million people (Who you are trying to kill) on work schemes to provide those people with food and a wage;

- You do not provide subsidised passage to assist emigration;

- You do not increase the number of workhouse places by nearly 30% to look after the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:53 PM

For fuck's sake loads, President Ml.D. Higgins will be over to the UK in a few weeks. Can we have a truce?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 01:22 PM

30 miles to food..get a runner to tell starving people there is food 30 miles away and some will find a way to get to it and some will die trying. They walked that far and more to the ships that would take them to Liverpool. They walked that far and more to the workhouses. It is said that men ran uphill from Dingle to Tralee for the price of a pouch of tobacco..this is before they were starving.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 12:58 PM

"What do you mean, "cack handed" Jim?"
You've not been taking your pills again, have you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 12:51 PM

"You seem to suffer from an astounding lack of perspective for someone who contributes under the name sciencegeek."

I fear the lack of perspective in on your end...

the ability to only draw conclusions that support your case by distorting any opposing arguments... do you play card games with the same honesty?

Spain & Portugal fluctuated from neutral to allies to opponants... pick a year.

They are also part of a pennisula...

so if a pennisula has ports... how many do you think an ISLAND like Ireland has??? Actually, you don't have to guess... just google..

But the above is in response to your irrelevent dithering....

however, this is what is relevent:

food was exported from Ireland

it was transported to ports & onto ships for export

it was not all grown within a days easy travel to those ports


so I say that it is you who has to explain why food can leave the country, but it too difficult to import & distribute.

or why food grown in Iireland could not have been purchased & distributed locally? or at least transported from the growing areas to those areas of need.

Nobody is asserting that a famine does not have casualties... the argument that I see is that the casualties were far higher than they should have been, in part because of a prevailing attitude among the upper classes that controlled policy and money.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 12:18 PM

What,even the esteemed ones?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 12:15 PM

What do you mean, "cack handed" Jim?

My case was just that historians are divided on these issues, which is a fact, and I think I expressed it very concisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 11:11 AM

"Don't know about you Christmas but that would appear to be an expression of someone's opinion "
That was the opinion of a policy making Government employee who opposed government policy of increasing aid to the extent that the Government abandoned its plans - his statement reflected government policy and he was awarded for his services in Ireland.
He expressed his opinions before, during and after the Famine - his philosophy was put into practice and one million died - end of story
Stop kicking the milkman's horse.
You are obviously not going to address one single point of Government policy, which is fine - watching you squirm and wiggle is answer enough
The document you cite on Famine causes points out that it was the manner in which the economy had been developed that caused the outcome of the Famine - plenty of other examples to draw from on that one - Sussex Uni, Derry Uni, Belfast Uni, Cork Uni - take your pick
Stop bullshitting and address the facts that have been put before you
You really are as cack-handed as Keith at this, aren't you?
Jim Carroll (Christmas, to you)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 10:58 AM

"Ireland: Land area: 26,598 sq mi (68,889 sq km); total area: 27,135 sq mi (70,280 sq km)
Portugal: Land area: 35,382 sq mi (91,639 sq km); total area: 35,672 sq mi (92,391 sq km).
so a basically unarmed country, smaller than Portugal, would require vast logistical efforts the equal to waging war???

Yes that would be about right, as the British in Portugal had only to feed, provision and supply about 55,000 men at the utmost. To do so in Portugal they had all the ports, and all the main roads. At the time they also had the produce of their allies, Portugal and Spain, to rely on.

Now how many were "starving" and dying of disease in Ireland again? (Wasn't it supposed to be about one million or more wasn't it?) Or doesn't that number, or the scale of the operation, matter, or register with you - you muppet!!

" In the same time period the Admiralty offered a reward of £20,000 (£1.56 million in 2009 money) "to any Party or Parties, of any country, who shall render assistance to the crews of the Discovery Ships under the command of Sir John Franklin".
To which I am sure the response will be... "why should the Admiralty be responsible for famine relief?"

Ehmm No sciencegeek that would not be my response. My response would be in expressing complete and utter amazement that you find it so utterly incomprehensible that the Royal Navy would offer a reward to those who could render assistance with regard to establishing the fate of two missing Royal Navy Vessels and effecting the rescue of their crews? - What is that praiseworthy ethos often trotted out over in the US by members of your military? – No Man Left Behind - see any parallel?

As for money being available £9.95 million (Over one billion today) was spent by the British Government, the next closest contributor to that was the money raised by the Society of Friends roughly £1 million. All the other contributors lumped together did not raise one-third of the money spent by the British Government. You seem to suffer from an astounding lack of perspective for someone who contributes under the name sciencegeek.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 10:13 AM

"The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"

Don't know about you Christmas but that would appear to be an expression of someone's opinion - In what way could it be possibly construed as a "Policy" (Def: Plan of action to achieve a stated and defined objective).

By the way Charles Edward Trevelyan as a senior civil servant would not set any British Government Policy, that being the sole responsibility of the elected Government of the day. Charles Edward Trevelyan would on the other hand have to carry out any such policy as it affected his stated duties and responsibilities. I thought that I had to explain that Christmas as you earlier posted somewhere that you believed that Trevelyan was running the show entirely off his own bat and was passing orders to Charles Wood and John Russell (Chancellor of the Exchequer and Prime Minister of the elected Government of the United Kingdom respectively) Always helps a discussion if people actually know what end is actually up - prevents the establishment of ludicrous and inaccurate ideas (Christmas is plagued with them constantly).

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 10:13 AM

"Yes sciencegeek it was done EVENTUALLY both in Portugal and in Spain always using the main access roads and routes with the Royal Navy in support and relying on well established ports up and down the coast it took SIX years to get right and the effort required to mount the relief effort in Ireland you seem to imagine possible would have taken far more in terms of resources (Remember Wellington's Peninsular Army was very small - minute by European standards of the day)."

More fruit salad from the great "let's compare apples to oranges" viewpoint.

Ireland: Land area: 26,598 sq mi (68,889 sq km); total area: 27,135 sq mi (70,280 sq km)


Portugal: Land area: 35,382 sq mi (91,639 sq km); total area: 35,672 sq mi (92,391 sq km).

so a basically unarmed country, smaller than Portugal, would require vast logistical efforts the equal to waging war???

what were they going to do? pelt them with rotting potatos???

they needed good roads because they were hauling cannon & munitions along with food supplies. I never said it would be easy, I said it could be done if the will to do so were there.

In the same time period the Admiralty offered a reward of £20,000 (£1.56 million in 2009 money) "to any Party or Parties, of any country, who shall render assistance to the crews of the Discovery Ships under the command of Sir John Franklin".

To which I am sure the response will be... "why should the Admiralty be responsible for famine relief?".

My point being that the money was there for what concerned them. And that concern was not the welfare of the starving Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:56 AM

"Joel Mokyr's Why Ireland Starved took pains to refute the Malthusian argument that the Famine was inevitable due to the overpopulation of pre-Famine Ireland. Indeed, Mokyr found that "there is no evidence that prefamine Ireland was overpopulated in any useful sense of the word. This is important, as Cullen's argument regarding the irrelevance of the Famine was essentially Malthusian" - as posted by Jim Carroll

Really?? Because here is what Joel Mokyr and Cormac O Grada wrote in their paper "Famine Disease and Famine Mortality: Lessons from Ireland, 1845 -1850" dated 30th June 1999:

"The Irish famine was not caused by war but by a series of catastrophic crop failures. Its impact was very uneven across regions and classes, but the virtual destruction of the people's main subsistence crop, the potato, for a number of successive years dominated "entitlement" considerations. This, then, was a real famine
in the old-fashioned sense of the word and not a case in which, following Alex de Waal's distinction, a "scarcity" was being confounded with a "famine" (de Waal 1989: 25-28). The Irish famine was a disaster with strong Malthusian features: a catastrophic reduction of the food supply led to major demographic re-adjustment.

So which one is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:49 AM

And answer came there none - which is an answer in itself
Jim Carroll
"The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:37 AM

I am discussing historiography.

Amusing. You don't know the meaning of the word, Fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:33 AM

1: "Your srgument against "1: "my case has been that on one in the early part of the 1800's had the knowledge to properly deal with the blight"

is based on a typo... "on one" should read "no one" and if you had actually been paying attention to the previous posts that I made, it should have been a no-brainer"

If you wish to make a point you should at least take the trouble and pay sufficient attention to correcting your mistakes before pressing the submit button - Pardon me for not guessing what it was you actually meant to write.

2: "Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if nations waged peace with the same enthusiasm as they do conquest."

Yes it most certainly would - Now tell me when you've managed to arrange that and I'll cheer with the rest.

3: "as for the logistics issue... a scholar of the Napoleonic Wars should know that as difficult as it was... IT WAS DONE. Britain got off its ass and waged what was arguably one of the earliest world wars - considering the number of nations involved and the geographic scope of the conflict. They did not "give it a try" and then go home with a sigh and say "oh well, what can you do?"

Yes it was done, by Great Britain on a massive scale at sea, and on a minute but extremely significant scale on land. That latter land part was always as part of a far greater effort by Allies that Great Britain funded and kept supplied - So please sciencegeek get things in perspective.

As for your comment that - They did not "give it a try" and then go home with a sigh and say "oh well, what can you do?" I hate to disillusion you but they did precisely that time and time again. Know where the children's song "The Grand Old Duke of York" comes from? Do you know what it was about?

Yes sciencegeek it was done EVENTUALLY both in Portugal and in Spain always using the main access roads and routes with the Royal Navy in support and relying on well established ports up and down the coast it took SIX years to get right and the effort required to mount the relief effort in Ireland you seem to imagine possible would have taken far more in terms of resources (Remember Wellington's Peninsular Army was very small - minute by European standards of the day).

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:08 AM

Sorry - missed a bit
British policy summed up
"The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:07 AM

"So are you saying that Black '47 "
I am saying no such thing - I am saying that the Russell Govennment chose the policy that decimated Ireland
Stop putting words im my mouth
Your Bar-rrom bluster only manages to convince me that you are totally out of your depth here
Answer the points and save your bullshit for closing time - it doesn't impress.
You have the evidence - even from your own experts - ant there's plenty more for you to ignore if you want it.
I'd never read Mokyr before you put him up - fascinating man
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 08:57 AM

I normally do not respond Christmas because what you write is normally a complete and utter load of B'll'cks.

Example:
"It was well within the Empires economy and power to ride out the effects of the Famine simply by the continuance and development of Peels' humanitarian policy"

So are you saying that Black '47 would not have occurred if Peel's humanitarian effort had continued even although by 1846 it was obvious that it just could not cope? Once more I will tell you - People were NOT dying of HUNGER.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 08:44 AM

T... Your arguments would be more persuasive if you were not so narrowly focused on the singular point of denying ANY cuplability of the British rulling classes... the government at the time, if you will.

Your srgument against "1: "my case has been that on one in the early part of the 1800's had the knowledge to properly deal with the blight"

is based on a typo... "on one" should read "no one" and if you had actually been paying attention to the previous posts that I made, it should have been a no-brainer...

as for the logistics issue... a scholar of the Napoleonic Wars should know that as difficult as it was... IT WAS DONE. Britain got off its ass and waged what was arguably one of the earliest world wars - considering the number of nations involved and the geographic scope of the conflict. They did not "give it a try" and then go home with a sigh and say "oh well, what can you do?"...

Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if nations waged peace with the same enthusiasm as they do conquest.

You just continue with your quibbling... booooring....

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 07:27 AM

Smoke and mirrors Terminus
Britain simply refused to deal with a famine which had was the consequence of an economy it had imposed on Ireland - a peasant economy based on subsistence existence.
The link you are studiously ignoring shows how Britian, in the midst of the Famine, took the decision to pursue that economy via its laissez-faire policy and use the effect that this had on the Irish population to thin out the dissidents in order to create an "efficient" (subservient) workforce which benefited the Empire - this is exactly what was behind Trevelyan's (3 times repeated) statement that the Famine was an opportunity to rid Ireland of its undesirables.
It was well within the Empires economy and power to ride out the effects of the Famine simply by the continuance and development of Peels' humanitarian policy - instead they decided to depopulate Ireland by (once again), closure of workhouses and warehouses, continuance of food exports, continuance of the laissez-faire policy which had already created subsistence-level conditions among the rural population, forced emigration - finally, the coup de grace - a military-backed, long term policy of mass evictions - it was a calculated plan to bring Ireland to heel - and Trevelyan stated that in so many words.
The long term effects of the Famine could have been overcome with a reformed agrarian economy, instead, the vacated lands were turned over to absentee landlords to continue to exploit them for personal gain and recreation.
No effort was made to feed the starving Irish population, there was no cessation of food exports, no attempts to stop profiteering - just a policy of 'starve or emigrate' - simple as that.
Trevelyan quote from Woodham Smith.
"The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"
I assume you will ignore this as you have ignored all the other points put before you -that's what you do best, in fact, it is the only thing you do
Jim Carroll (Christmas to you)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 05:43 AM

Sciencegeek:

1: "my case has been that on one in the early part of the 1800's had the knowledge to properly deal with the blight"

And where was this knowledge centred? Where was it accessible and to whom? After all there was no Ministry of Agriculture in the British Government of the day, no Department of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. So who was it in a position of power to direct things that would have seized on the humble swede as the means to come galloping to the rescue – Rhetorical question sciencegeek there was nothing in place, there was nobody in place to make such a thing happen – There was no BIG GOVERNMENT anywhere in those days – people were brought up to be self-reliant, it was considered a virtue, charity was based on a parochial system of Parishes and was not seen as the job of Government.

2: "I also indicated that some of the well meant relief efforts failed because of ignorance."

Ah so not the deliberate machinations of an evil government hell bent on genocide then? Not the line that Carroll is trying to peddle.

3: "BUT... I see no reason to make excuses for some of the actions taken by those in power at the time that reflect a combination of callus indifference to the suffering of others coupled with a prevailing prejudice against the Irish in general and Catholics in particular."

The famine as viewed through 21st century eyes, mind you having said that, there is a possible modern day parallel – Afghanistan.
Today we have the "war weary West" willing to leave Afghanistan never to return utterly disgusted by the apparent lack shown by the Afghans of showing any willingness to help themselves. We will leave in full belief and expectation of many that the second the international community departs Afghanistan will descend into yet another decade or more of violence and barbarism – how about that for matching a reflection of "callous indifference" to the suffering of others (With the known precedent that when exactly the same thing was done in 1989, 6 million people suffered for it, repeated this time on the same scale it will more like 12 million). Prevailing prejudice against Muslims in particular? Are there any reasons that you could possibly identify for the average man in the street to harbour those prejudices?

Callous indifference must not be confused with the inability to cope or deal with a problem that has run away from you. Those in power can only do what can physically be done – that is true in disasters that occur in modern times with all our technological advantages.

Judging by the contributions raised by the British public during the famine and by the unprecedented financial assistance given by the British Government at the time, I can see no real evidence of there being prejudice against the Irish as a nation. Prejudice against and mistrust of Roman Catholics throughout mainland Britain was unfortunately very real and deeply seated in the history of mainland Britain, as it was in quite a few other countries the USA being one of them – it was the real politik of the era.

In your outburst against the rich and successful in the USA, I notice you do not describe it as an attempted genocide against the poor, or any other ethnic group by your Government, yet you feel free to throw accusations at a foreign government dealing with an unprecedented crisis about 170 years ago!!

4: "Forty years earlier, Britain managed to move troops and supplies in Europe during their wars with France & its allies... a daunting task... but they pulled it off. Where there's a will, there's a way... as the old saying goes."

Oh sciencegeek, thank you, thank you, thank you, for drawing this (Napoleonic Wars) into the discussion. You have hit upon my specialist subject, which supports everything I have said to do with the transport and logistical problems faced.

"An Army marches on its stomach" was attributed to Napoleon who also instructed his Marshals that their armies must feed off the land – that latter bit was why they tended to lose (Even on French soil) when up against Wellington.

Wellington had learned command of troops and more significantly the art of campaigning in India. And what he learned there was that you have to carry everything with you, that you must never strip the food from the local inhabitants and that you must pay for anything that you do take, most important of all, he discovered the importance of the Ox-cart. There are many memoirs written by both soldiers and officers who fought and campaigned in the Peninsula with Wellington. The one thing that runs common through them all was that when talking about the predominating sound of the campaigns in Portugal and Spain, they all say the same thing – The squeak of axles and the creak of Ox-carts.

I asked you once before about what would be required to transport a fully loaded wagon a distance of 30 miles and bring it back. In a country bereft of food the effort is staggering. Wellington in fighting the French fully appreciated the difficulties.

A battery of six guns required between 160 to 200 horses and over forty wagons to keep it in the field. Armies of the period could only remain assembled for about three days at the utmost other-wise they starved, their rate of advance depending upon the time of year, the ground over which they were advancing, the quality of the maps available and the existence or absence of roads was roughly 12 to 18 miles per day. OK then sciencegeek how does the mountainous and boggy wilds of western Ireland match up to the vast flat plains of Castille? Camped for just over one month outside the Lines of Torres Vedras built by Wellington to defend Lisbon, the French Commander Massena, the most capable of Napoleon's Generals, never even attempted to attack them, yet he lost over 25,000 men to hunger and disease in the countryside laid bare by the Portuguese. Now multiply that by 12 and you have more dead Frenchmen than you had dead Irish men , women and children in "Black '47" by quite a margin.

Now then sciencegeek in those forty years things had not really advanced that much, especially in Ireland so where were the British Government and those in charge of aid distribution going to get the thousands of horses and the hundreds of wagons needed. Where were they going to get the thousands of tons of grain to feed those horses? Where were they going to get the required number of blacksmiths, farriers and wheelwrights? All that before you have even got so much as one meal to one family in need – Piece of cake really isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 05:01 AM

"Joel Mokyr's Why Ireland Starved took pains to refute the Malthusian
argument that the Famine was inevitable due to the overpopulation of
pre-Famine Ireland. Indeed, Mokyr found that "there is no evidence
that prefamine Ireland was overpopulated in any useful sense of the
word. This is important, as Cullen's argument regarding the irrele-
vance of the Famine was essentially Malthusian"
This is an assessment of the Ireland that was developed under colonial rule - Mokyr is one of those cited
THE IMPACT OF COLONISATION ON THE ISLAND OF IRELAND – FAMINE AND EMIGRATION
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 05:01 AM

You never have had - just Imperialistic rantings

A lie Jim.
Nothing I have said could be described thus.

My case was just that historians are divided on these issues, and that is a fact.

You can not deny that fact, but neither can you tolerate it being posted, so here we are.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 04:07 AM

"I have nothing else to say on this."
You never have had - just Imperialistic rantings
"Very pleased to hear that you consider Mitchel's work on the subject to be purely propaganda and should be ignored as a source of reliable information with respect to this subject."
I didn't say that so please stop distorting what |I did say.
Mitchel used the factual behavior of the British Government to further the cause of Irish Independence, for which he has my respect.
Everything else is waffle and denial.
You have the facts of the famine - I make the same invitation that Keith has just done a runner from
Which choices exactly are disputed -
Closing warehouses - don't think so.
Closing workhouses - nope - definitely happened.
Laissez-faire policy - nope, down in black and white
Trevelyan's hatred of the Irish - likewise
The British Government appointing such a man to feed the people he hated - a million corpses to confirm this.
Coffin ship casualties - done and dusted
Irish left only the choice of dying or leaving Ireland - ancient history
Being racially abused both in England and America - libraries full of books on the subject.
Murderous evictions leaving thousands of families to starve on the roadside (a practice which continued to the end of the 19th century) - a legacy to prove it.
Your hit and run bullying and blustering bullshit may impress your mates around closing time but it really doesn't alter anything.
The factors I have listed turned a natural disaster into a holocaust - disprove them or GFY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 04:05 AM

You know, there is a world if difference between mindless abuse and abusing the mindless.

As you seem to be so wedded to absurdity, how can anyone act otherwise? You won't listen to reason, you infuriate people by saying disagreement with you makes them. "Wrong" and continually find sympathetic quotes rather use your intelligence and give us a Keith analysis. When someone states their own view, you want to know where they got it from. That alone sums you up.

I wouldn't call it abuse, I'd say people are being ultimately kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 03:52 AM

Ah Christmas:

1: Very pleased to read that you do not think that 625,000 people died crossing the Atlantic and for confirming that the 125,000 figure you stated was untypical as stated by Joel Mokyr.

2: Who assembled hastily acquired and unprepared ships? Not the British Government. By the way there was nothing hasty at all about the trans-Atlantic timber trade and the trade in goods between Canada and America and Great Britain.

3: Neither the United States of America or Canada would have been built or established as the countries they are today without the influx of immigrants. Those nations desperately wanted them the people who lived in the landing port cities did not.

4: Very pleased to hear that you consider Mitchel's work on the subject to be purely propaganda and should be ignored as a source of reliable information with respect to this subject.

5: The concept of the workhouse was introduced to Ireland in 1838. By 1845 there were 128 workhouses in Ireland, by the end of the famine there were 163 of them. A question for you Christmas. If all the workhouses were closed in 1846 as you say, what were the additional 35 workhouses built for, and who built them?

6: IIRC Christmas it was yourself that proposed Tim Pat Coogan as a bona fide Historian and dismissed Hastings because he was a tabloid journalist. I pulled you up on your hypocritical double standard (Not for the first time and I am sure it will not be for the last)

7: I don't think Sir Charles Edward Trevelyan is in any state to sue Tim Pat Coogan for defamation or libel. But didn't you state that you had tried to find any corroborative evidence of the letter and proof that it was written by Trevelyan but could find nothing whatsoever?? As far as I can see there is no proof at all. Does it have to be challenged? No. Does the lack of a challenge indicate that it must be authentic? Again No.

8: "I should have thought a denial of Trevelyan's authorship would have sent Coogan's case tumbling, don't you?"

Ehmm Christmas the letter was sent under a pseudonym, you said. Who can authoritatively deny or confirm it? If the letter has been ignored by contemporaries and historians it was probably because it was deemed to be irrelevant. There is no mention of his "fact finding mission" to Ireland in 1843 and no reference to any connection between Philalethes and Charles Edward Trevelyan. But if there was such a mission entrusted to a senior civil servant then the fact that his report details some extremely honest opinions voiced as pretty unpalatable truths that should come as no surprise (Modern day equivalent – Wikileaks diplomatic cables?)

The Trevelyan letter to Lord Mounteagle castigates the land owners in Ireland NOT the people, not surprised that you haven't picked up on that as it does not comply to your prejudices. In the popular thinking of the time as previously stated the "God's punishment" was pretty common not only amongst the rich and powerful but also amongst the Irish people and the Roman Catholic Clergy ministering to them. That by the way was another fact that you conveniently ignore as you vector in on Trevelyan.

"Indolent Irish"? Refer to Professor Joel Mokyr he paints a picture that explains why things happened the way they did, your inference that all things were sweetness and light prior to the arrival of the famine and that evil Great Britain took advantage , is a monstrous misrepresentation. If the famine was a case of deliberate genocide then the British Government made a pretty ham-fisted attempt at it don't you think? Surely if it was deliberate then they would have killed people off with far greater efficiency? I mean 5,000 trips across the Atlantic and only 59 ships sink? Why not all of them? That would certainly have been within their power and competence.

The problem is that you and sciencegeek look at the period and apply 21st century thinking to it. Your paucity of solutions practicable at the time is the best indication of this. You also ignore facts that work against you with a perverseness that defies belief.

1: Britain should have closed Irish ports to export of domestically grown foodstuffs

This would have hit and harmed those producing the food and not all food grown in Ireland was exported. The production figures for home grown produce in Ireland fell dramatically during the Famine years while the imports of products particularly cereals expanded enormously. The repeal of the Corn Laws allowed that to happen. Had the Corn Laws not been repealed then the effects of the famine would have been worse but Peel's Tory Government would have remained in power. Peel crashed his Government on purpose to give the people of the United Kingdom a voice and that election returned Russell's Whig government. The hand-over of the handling of the situation in Ireland was smooth, and NO Christmas, NOT ALL Government aid was stopped.

2: Irish crops should have been sent to the parts of Ireland affected by the blight.

Yes fantastic idea as long as you can actually transport the stuff there and get it distributed before it rots. The physical means of transportation simply did not exist so that blows that "remedy" out of the water. Did they try to get food to where it was needed? Damn right they did. Was the lack of food the thing that was killing the people – NO IT WAS NOT, and the means to counter what was actually killing people was not understood until THIRTY YEARS AFTER the end of the famine. Typhoid was a killer taking crowned heads of Europe as well as the poorest in society.

3: Public works? Ask any farmer how walls benefit windswept fields. "Roads to nowhere"? Well they didn't lead to nowhere back in the late 1840s and if you are going to bring in food to distribute you have to roads that can allow transportation by wagons – cart or pony tracks just don't hack it.

4: Could things have remained as they had been in Ireland? No most certainly they could not. The series of famines that preceded that of 1845 and the burgeoning population all tied to land that simply could not support them was only going to perpetuate the problem and exacerbate it with increasing frequency. As I have stated before not even sheep are stupid enough to remain on hills with no grazing.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 03:45 AM

I am not arguing History, I am discussing historiography.

My case is just that historians are divided on these issues, and that is a fact.

You can not deny that fact, but neither can you bear to have it posted.

That is how a simple statement of fact by me has reduced you and Musket to mindless abuse and name-calling.

I have nothing else to say on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 03:40 AM

"The Revisionist historians, the dominant view, do not support your case Jim."
You vindictively opened this thread to score a point.
You've clung on to some mythological 'opposition' by some mythological 'historians' (all the ones you have named so far have proved to be saying the opposite to your pro-Empire case) to keep this thread open.
I have laid out all the information I have and asked you to challenge it
I have offered to revise my note to the song that all this started with (Skibbereen) if you show me where I have gone wrong.
Your response is to continue to skulk behind a manufactured case based on historians you haven't read and, because you have no interest in this (or any subject you choose to vandalise) will never read.
I have invited you to show us where those things I listed - the factors that allowed a million people to starve and tore apart a nation in order to profit an Empire - are wrong.
You ignore that invitation, so you have no case; you have never had a case, and you never will until you actually attempt to learn something about these topics you leech onto.
Once again (25 Mar 14 - 11:42 AM ) answer the points or go away.
I have little doubt that you will refuse to do so and will go on to have your customary last word.
You really are one disturbed and disturbing individual
You need to ask yourself why you are a member of this forum and why you persist on doing the damage that you persist on doing to these discussions
Please go away - you are a mess
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 05:56 PM

The Revisionist historians, the dominant view, do not support your case Jim.
As Kinealy said,"Thirdly, the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts. Moreover, both the landlords and the British government have been rehabilitated; the former frequently being shown as hapless victims themselves, and the latter, as being ignorant of the real state of affairs in Ireland, and lacking both the financial and administrative capability to alleviate the situation anyway."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 02:59 PM

This isn't fair you know Keith...

Every time I call you a soft cunt, some soft cunt of a moderator removes the post.

Yet you can insult our intelligence all day. I suppose the dumbing down on TV had to reach internet debate too eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 01:39 PM

That second should read 'closing workhouses' - happened
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 11:42 AM

"Most historians."
Which choices exactly are disputed -
Closing warehouses - don't think so.
Closing warehouses - nope - definitely happened.
Laissez-faire policy - nope, down in black and white
Trevelyan's hatred of the Irish - likewise
The British Government appointing such a man to feed the people he hated - a million corpses to confirm this.
Coffin ship casualties - done and dusted
Irish left only the choice of dying or leaving Ireland - ancient history
Being racially abused both in England and America - libraries full of books on the subject.
Murderous evictions leaving thousands of families to starve on the roadside (a practice which continued to the end of the 19th century) - a legacy to prove it.
Your and your blustering mate's refusal to even acknowledge a single one of these doesn't mean they didn't happen - only that you support them having happened and would no doubt, should such circumstances recur, do so again
Rule Britannia
Yup - definitely a Dalek
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 10:45 AM

Sorry... this would read better as

"But that is human nature at its lowest, and I dare you to deny that such attitudes were not present in 1847 Britain... or assert that the quest for short term success was less important to the ruling classes than the welfare of the poor."

Food was exported from Ireland during the famine... and not by the starving poor, I dare say. Then who, pray tell?

And your premise: "Well yes logically it is easier to move people from a place in which all they will ever be able to do is subsist and suffer, with ever increasing frequency, chronic food shortages and unemployment." is based on what? That large sections of the Irish land mass somehow disappeared... or was made sterile? Or is is actually that large tracts of land had been "given" to political allies of the ruling British classes... leaving the Irish to be "tenants" in their own country, while the agricultural products were exported by enrich the coffers of the "new" land owners.

Don't worry, it's not like it hasn't been done elsewhere... America has nothing to be proud about when it comes to our treatment of Native Americans. The "lucky" survivors got stuck onto reservations... with high unemployment and other social ills that are "obviously" their own fault... for what? losing out to an overwhelming horde of European invaders?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 10:15 AM

There is no argument that these were the choices made

Yes there is.
Most historians.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 10:14 AM

All you have to do is transfer the situation in Ireland to say, Birmingham, and see if the decisions taken would have been acceptable, or even conceivable there THEY WOULD NOT.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 10:10 AM

"Where there's a will, there's a way"
Exactly - The British Empire was incredibly wealthy at the time of the Famine - more than capable of relieving the suffering of the Irish people other than allowing them to die or forcing them to emigrate
There is no argument that these were the choices made - pretty obvious from the fact that neither of these comedians have responded to these facts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 09:56 AM

On "Coffin" Ships here is another possible contender for ships that could justly be called "Coffin" Ships – Look up Sir Edward Pine Coffin,

More likely William Sloane Coffin, T-Bird.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 09:15 AM

no idea where the rest of the original post went...

BUT... I see no reason to make excuses for some of the actions taken by those in power at the time that reflect a combination of callus indifference to the suffering of others coupled with a prevailing prejudice against the Irish in general and Catholics in particular.

Anymore than I make excuses for the mean spirited politics and bigotry that allows hunger to exist in America - hardly an impoverish nation or in the grips of a famine- because of the greed of a privileged few that control an unreasonable amount of money and influenece... al so they can accumulate even more wealth than they already have. camel hell... a T-rex would have a better chance getting through that eye of a needle than some of these SOBs.

But that is human nature at its lowest, and I dare you to deny that such attitudes were not present in 1847 Britain... or that the quest for short term success was less important to the ruling classes than the welfare of the poor.

Forty years earlier, Britain managed to move troops and supplies in Europe during their wars with France & its allies... a daunting task... but they pulled it off. Where there's a will, there's a way... as the old saying goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 08:53 AM

"ou are trying to infer or claim that 625,000 "
No I am not - I pointed out that that was the first year - a time when hastily acquired and unprepared ships were assembled to herd the undesirables onto ships unfit for purpose rather than feed them from the locked warehouses, house them on closed warehouses or prevent the corruption surrounding the famine relief boats - all a matter of choice really - continue and develop Peel's efforts or just ship the victims to nations who didn't really want them.
Mitchel's belief was propaganda for getting rid of an Empire which made such choices - I've no problem with that.
It doesn't alter what those choices were in one iota - uless of course, you are claiming that the warehouses were empty, the workhouses fully operational, no corruption was happening and no food being exported out of Ireland - wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
"The Hastings/Coogan thing just demonstrates your hypocrisy, bigotry and bias."
Then explain Keith's accepting Hastings as a Historian and Coogan as not - other than one fits your bill the other doesn't.
Hypocrisy writ large.
"So only Tim Pat Coogan has got substantive proof that Phlalethes and Charles Edward Trevelyan are indeed the same person"
Enough proof to publish the letter in full with dates and details AND NOT BE CHALLENGED BY ANY SINGLE HISTORIAN INCLUDING KENNEDY - WHO TOTALLY IGNORED IT WHEN COOGAN RAISED IT.
I should have thought a denial of Trevelian's authorship would have sent Coogan's case tumbling, don't you?
Trevelyan's letter has never been denied, just ignored for political expediency.
By the way, what is freely available is Trevelyan's re-iteration of his "God's punishment, indolent Irish" approach to his task in an autobiographical account of his work in Ireland some years later.
It was his view, he did what he did, Britain appointed him and backed what he did - result = one million dead, half a century of evictions and a century and a half plus of continuing emigration.
The Society of Friends and other charities were carrying out reliefe work to make up for the malicious neglect of Britain, who would no more "close them down" than would the powers that be today would prevent the work of Oxfam.
This in no way means that Britain didn't carry out a policy that led to waht it did - the more-than decimation of an entire nation.
Now answer some of the points and stop waffling
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 08:46 AM

Musket dear, I did not choose the terms.
Those are the terms used to describe the different schools of Irish History.
I am so sorry that you do not approve, and I am sure they are too.

Jim, I have used the terms correctly throughout and have tried to explain them to you several times.

I have no favoured historians or opinions on this period, but I know that opinions are divided and I hope that you have now learned that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 08:38 AM

What has the word nationalist got to do with revisionist?

Revision means revising and possibly by that altering an original view, point, fact or hypothesis.

Nationalism means wearing a blazer in November and pretending an abstract construction such as country means something.

Playing black and white again are we Keith? Are you saying that to criticise the callous imperial mindset of The Westminster government means you are full square behind the romantic singing of The Clancy Brothers or Bobby Sands?

Add the word insulting to the list....

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 08:15 AM

"More quibbling about the "coffin ships" does not alter by one corpse the number of people who died on them - it just shuffles around them - as you apologists do."

Don't believe I personally have shuffled anything around – you are trying to infer or claim that 625,000 people died on the ships transporting emigrants from the British isles to either Canada or America during the famine of 1845 to 1851 – Now if one was to accept that between 1845 and 1855 two million Irish men, women and children emigrated to the new world that would mean that just over 31% died. Only trouble is Christmas that just doesn't tally with the numbers who landed and went on to live in the new world. Joel Mokyr an ecomonics historian however has studied the numbers and his percentage indicates only 5% lost their lives. Now do I believe him, or do I believe you? Professor Mokyr has an international reputation in his field of study and is widely acclaimed, you on the other hand I know for a fact have a long history of just making stuff up, and deliberately misrepresenting things to suit your general anti-British bias. So if you don't mind I will go with the good Professor.

"Cecil Woodham Smith's The Great Hunger certainly is not "definitive" - it is merely an excellent introduction to the subject."

Much acclaimed when it was written back in 1962, it was critically reviewed by historians as being overly harsh on Trevelyan. When I read it I thought it was a good book and your view is shared by:

Great Famine Interpreters - Old & New

The writer also comes down on the side that there was no great deliberate plot and that Mitchel's book was propaganda.

What evidence do you wish to concoct to substantiate your claim that Trevelyan was a religious fanatic? I mean this is the same supposed religious fanatic who in one letter dated 29 April 1846, wrote:

"Our measures must proceed with as little disturbance as possible of the ordinary course of private trade, which must ever be the chief resource for the subsistence of the people, but, coûte que coûte (at any cost), the people must not, under any circumstances, be allowed to starve."

Strange words to use for a man hell bent in destroying the Irish nation by starving them to death don't you think?

"I stumbled across the debate between Kennedy and Coogan on 'The Famine Plot' - fascinating listening."

Yes it was Christmas and Kennedy ran circles round Coogan, even although Coogan was given more time.

"Kennedy, whatever his qualifications, turns out to be" - A Historian Not a Hack ("Your words Christmas").

Reading up about Trevelyan I came across this bit of nonsense written by one Ciarán Ó Murchadha, from his book "The Great potato famine: Ireland's Agony 1845-1852":

"The Peelite Relief Programs that were in operation during the beginning years of the famine were shut down on July 21, 1846 by Charles Wood, 1st Viscount Halifax, on Trevelyan's orders"

Now just looking at who was who in that statement you had Charles Wood, 1st Viscount Halifax, who was the Chancellor of the Exchequer, second most important political appointment in the Whig Government of Lord John Russell, and you had Charles Edward Trevelyan the British civil servant chiefly responsible for administering Irish relief policy throughout the famine years (He didn't pick up his KCB until 1848). Now then you tell me who was in a position to give who orders? (Hint: It certainly wasn't Trevelyan). By the way what holiday did Trevelyan take between 1845 and 1852?

"One thing I had missed when I read Coogan's book, which I revisited last night, was an appendix containing a long letter sent anonymously by Trevelyan (under the pseudonym Philalethes) to The Morning Chronicle (Oct. 11th 1843), expressing his hatred of the Irish as lazy malcontents who didn't appreciate the benefits of the British Empire"
I have never come across Trevelyan's letter before and can find no reference to it elsewhere - a historical cover-up?

So only Tim Pat Coogan has got substantive proof that Phlalethes and Charles Edward Trevelyan are indeed the same person, as no reference is made to this letter elsewhere, so it MUST BE a cover up? What about if Trevelyan didn't write the letter at all? Oh by the way as to the Irish being lazy I would refer you to the link you supplied "Famine deaths" and acquaint yourself with what Professor Joel Mokyr says about the Irish on that point – their indolence, personal hygiene and living habits were all massive contributory factors with regard to death from contagious diseases.
   
"Comparing other famines with the Irish one is more or less equivalent to saying human rights atrocities are acceptable because everybody does them"

The only points of comparison that I have made have centred on:

1: Ireland was not the only place struck by this particular famine, but is the only place in which people, such as yourself are wittering on about deliberate plots and genocide purely to advance a political objective.

2: That while famines raged throughout Europe the British Government was the only Government that put in place a relief effort (Over three-quarters of a million men engaged in Government sponsored work programmes and just over three million people being fed).

"You have described The Famine as "unprecedented" - it was.
The way it was handled was Genocidal - whether it was deliberately so is what should be debated."

No case to answer, the charge just simply cannot be substantiated. All factual evidence points to the opposite of deliberate genocide.

"Your advocating for Hastings doesn't make a happorth of difference - not to me anyway."

The Hastings/Coogan thing just demonstrates your hypocrisy, bigotry and bias.

"You want to make a point about the Famine - do so."

I have done so, shooting down one argument of yours after another

"Don't compare it to other famines"

Ah only the Irish Famine counts eh? How parochial of you

"don't waffle about who invented coffin ships"

Nobody invented "Coffin" Ships Christmas it was a term already in use before the famine ever occurred, what was under discussion was the fact that the term did not originate with the Famine. Don't dare to presume to tell me what I can and cannot mention in conversation with others on this forum.

"come out from behind the reputations of 'prominent historians and address the facts"

Well you see Christmas on this topic all those prominent historians have studied the period and they have addressed the facts in far, far greater detail than either you or I have, and recognizing that reality I tend to be influenced by what they, not you have written and said on the subject.

So ALL attempts at relief were abandoned were they? That is at odds with what was actually done, the Government did not shut down all relief efforts and independent relief efforts such as those mounted by the Society of Friends and other continued their work.

"that is what lies at the heart of over a million deaths and a permanent culture of Irish emigration ever since."

"Aw Jayzus, here we are in two thousand and fourteen lads, and we've all got the f**k off out of it because of what those bastard Brits did damn near 170 years ago" – Just how pathetic can you get Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 07:21 AM

I've already put up your document - by the way
or suggested that it was somehow inevitable and not the fault of the British government
Which is more or less what you pair are doing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 07:16 AM

That explains why the British closed the warehouses, workhouses, contuned to export food and enforced emigration while allowing mass evictions of tenants - which lasted for another half century half-century - damn, I didn't thinks of that.
If you don't mind, Id rather go with the suggestion that Britain appointed someone who hated the Irish (and said so) to distribute food and allowed him to carry out a cull of undesirables - at least, until a bettes suggestion comes along.
The Irish economy, agrarian and rural, was as it was under British rule - It wasn't changed in any way because it suited the Empire to leave it as it was - Britain's breadbasket.
There were no attempts at modernisation - it remained a basic peasant economy - and referred to as such.
That situation was prevalent throughout the Empire - each colony alloted its role in feeding the beast.
Any attempts to alter that situation were firmly and bloodily imposed.
Probably the best example of the Imperial mindset was 'Poor Little Belgium's' slaughtering 10,000.000 Congolese.
You want to excuse Britain's policy, do so and stop waffling around long dismissed excuses.
Keith's historians have all made their views clear that it was Britain's "callous" laissez-faire policy that caused so many deaths, whether it was intended or not.
Keith - if I wanted a group of gods to worship, I'd join a pantheist church - historians produce facts on which we can make up our own minds (those of us who have them) - they do not deliver scriptures writ in stone
You might find that if you ever get round to reading one.
There is no confusion of the term revision - just the way you have adapted it to mean whatever you want it to mean.
I'm happy to dip into the earlier discussion in which you used it as an outright condemnation of all historians other than your own and produced a massive list of your having done so, only to have it totally ignored by you.
Go and play in the garden and maybe we'll go for a walk - after you've taken your medicine, of course
Your mindless repetition on inanities only manages to convince that you are really a Dalek.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:40 AM

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 10:38 AM
Jim, I am not the historian, and I did not expect you to agree with them all, but they are eminent and respected.
I did not choose the terms "nationalist" and "revisionist" as applied to historians of the famine.
Google "revisionist nationalist history famine ireland" and see what comes up.

I also gave this link to a page that explains the usage fully.
http://www.iisresource.org/Documents/KS3_Famine_Interpretations.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:32 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 02:58 AM

Steve, it was a famine triggered by the blight.
All historians agree it was catastrophic for Ireland.
The old "nationalist" historians regarded the English as being uniquely uncaring and the Irish as uniquely the victims.

"Revisionist" historians challenge the view that England was culpable.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:28 AM

Revisionism and Nationalism in the context of famine History has been laid out from the beginning of the discussion on the previous thread.

I am amazed that you two find the terms so confusing.
Come back when you have got it clear in your little minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:24 AM

You know, you can't bandy the word revision around without reference to the index text.

What was that?

Anyone?

Hello?




This is also an excellent cart before the horse. The thread asks for debate on the cause of potato blight, and the discussion is about the reaction to the potato blight.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:20 AM

Keith dismissed it as "revisionist" whatever his mind has interpreted the term

No. Keith described Woodham-Smith as Nationalist, the opposite of Revisionist.
I did not choose the terms used by historians, but it is not that hard to grasp Jim!

I am not "demanding "evidence from real historians" "
I am pointing out that they are divided, and that your view is a minority one.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 05:52 AM

"125,000 died on the voyage in one year alone 1847
That was one year - the famine lasted for 5"

And?? Are you trying to infer that the 125,000 is an average? (Of course it isn't) That as the famine lasted 5 years therefore 625,000 people must have died making the journey from Ireland to the new world? (Nowhere near that number died crossing the Atlantic)

Another figure that has been bandied about has been that 30% of those setting out across the Atlantic from Ireland died – Again that is not true. One man who has studied this extensively is Joel Mokyr and he, as I have previously stated, put the overall percentage of those dying on passage as being 5%, specifically mentioning and drawing our attention to the year 1847 as being untypical.

On the link entitled "Famine deaths" written by Professor Joel Mokyr, supplied by Christmas, there is one thing of which I am certain, he either did not read it (Because if he did it blows his deliberate plot and genocide theory out of the water), or if he did, like journalist Tim Pat Coogan, he simply just did not understand what it was that he was reading.

Black '47 – the worst year of the famine, the famine which Christmas, and his supporters on this forum, claim was an act of deliberate genocide on the part of the British Government to wipe out the Irish nation by deliberately starving them to death. In 1847 the worst year of the famine in Ireland 6,000 people starved to death according to the link that Christmas provided. Just under quarter of a million people did die that year but not from starvation. Yet Christmas puts forward the case that if food had been provided to the people (logistically impossible to do as was discovered at the time) by the British Government then all would have been well. Professor Joel Mokyr in his paper tells you different Christmas and he explains the whys and the wherefores – you just simply did not read them, or understand them.

But here is the bit that blows Christmas's claims out of the water – taken directly from Professor Joel Mokyr's paper:

VIII: CONCLUSION
The dimensions of a disaster depend on the size of the impact and the vulnerability of
the society upon which it is inflicted. The functional relation between outcome and the two
determinants is, however, additive rather than multiplicative. Even seemingly invulnerable
societies can be devastated if the impact is large enough. Conversely, weak and vulnerable
societies may survive for long periods if they are lucky enough to avoid major challenges.

Sadly, Ireland was not lucky.
Ireland's vulnerability was in terms of its overall poverty, the physical impossibility
of storing potatoes, and the thinness of markets in basic subsistence goods due to the
prevalence of the potato. But there is a second dimension to the vulnerability which
compounds the first one, and that is that all populations of the time were vulnerable to an
increase in the incidence of infectious diseases in case of outside shocks. The absence of a
clear understanding of the nature of disease meant that the privations and disruptions of the
Famine quickly translated themselves into the horror-filled statistics of Wilde's 1851 "Tables of Deaths".

It bears repeating that in past famines, including the Great Irish Famine, most
victims were not killed directly by hunger and exposure but by micro-organisms. Neither
the victims, NOR THE AUTHORITIES, NOR MEDICAL EXPERTS understood this basic fact
until the 1880s. Their ignorance of the exact nature of what it was that was killing most victims is a
crucial element in determining the demographic impact of past famines. The main reason
why modern famines differ from past famines is that today we understand the role that
infectious disease plays during nutritional crises. A careful analysis of epidemics during past
famines can therefore help us toward a better understanding of precisely what happened in
the past. The understanding of the epidemiology and etiology of infectious diseases and the
physiology of their symptoms, and the knowledge of how to treat patients suffering from
basic ailments such as fever and diarrhoea will remain with us even if antibiotics lose some
of their effectiveness with the proliferation of drug-resistant strains. Moreover, even in the
presence of severe food scarcities, the complete collapse of hygiene and personal care can be
prevented. In this respect, the timing of the Irish famine was as tragic as its dimensions:
had Phytophthora Infestans attacked only a few decades later, better understanding of the
basic mechanisms of death thanks to the scientific advances following the work of Pasteur
and Koch might have saved many thousands of lives."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 05:38 AM

More quibbling about the "coffin ships" does not later by one corpse the number of people who died on them - it just shuffles around them - as you apologists do.
Cecil Woodham Smith's The Great Hunger certainly is not "definitive" - it is merely an excellent introduction to the subject.
Keith dismissed it as "revisionist" whatever his mind has interpreted the term.
The 150th anniversary of the Famine produced a whole batch of fresh studies on the subject - many of them examining the political motivation and the implications of appointing a religious fanatic like Trevelyan to be put in charge of distributing food to a population he despised - his actions show that.
If that were not enough, I stumbled across the debate between Kennedy and Coogan on 'The Famine Plot' - fascinating listening.
Kennedy describes Trevelyan as "a dedicated workaholic" struggling to feed the starving people
Kennedy, whatever his qualifications, turns out to be no more than a Famine apologist - like you pair of clowns.
He in no way attempts to explain Trevelyan's hatred of the Irish, nor why such a man should have been appointed - he certainly never refers to the fact that Trevelyan decided to take a long holiday in the middle of the Famine - leaving the Irish to continue to starve.
One thing I had missed when I read Coogan's book, which I revisited last night, was an appendix containing a long letter sent anonymously by Trevelyan (under the pseudonym Philalethes) to The Morning Chronicle (Oct. 11th 1843), expressing his hatred of the Irish as lazy malcontents who didn't appreciate the benefits of the British Empire - this is the man who was appointed to feed the people he hated.
I have never come across Trevelyan's letter before and can find no reference to it elsewhere - a historical cover-up?   
Comparing other famines with the Irish one is more or less equivalent to saying human rights atrocities are acceptable because everybody does them - as you both have done
You have described The Famine as "unprecedented" - it was.
The way it was handled was Genocidal - whether it was deliberately so is what should be debated.
Your advocating for Hastings doesn't make a happorth of difference - not to me anyway.
I haven't read his book and haven't commented on what he wrote - I pointed out that his latest work was cited as being "weak on the causes of WW1 - no more.
My reason for raising his name was to point out the hypocrisy of Keith (who still hasn't read a book as as far as I know) demanding "evidence from real historians" while basing his entire arguments (on WW1) on the writings of a tabloid journalist, with no historical qualifications, permanently employed a notoriously jingoistic producer of rightist bum-fodder - how crassly dishonest can you get.
You want to make a point about the Famine - do so.
Don't compare it to other famines - don't waffle about who invented coffin ships - come out from behind the reputations of 'prominent historians and address the facts, which are simply based on the Government decision to abandon all attempts at relief and opt for "inevitable" mass deaths and/or enforced emigration - that is what lies at the heart of over a million deaths and a permanent culture of Irish emigration ever since.
Stop waffling and blustering - stick to the point boy!
Yours
Christmas
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 05:28 AM

"Odd isn't it that during this same period people were flocking to America from all over Europe for exactly the same reasons that the Irish were emigrating – no accusations of genocide there though, strange really as in most of those countries their Governments did not lift a finger to help those fleeing."

A spurious argument at best... since the topic was the Irish Potato Blight which was co-opted into the Irish Famine... which involved a far greater proportion of the overall population than on the continent.

Now why don't we get down to the real case here and cut the BS...

my case has been that on one in the early part of the 1800's had the knowledge to properly deal with the blight... we have enough problems even today dealing with plant pathogens. So the crop failures were inevitable. I also indicated that some of the well meant relief efforts failed because of ignorance.

BUT... I see no reason to make excuses for some of the actions taken by those in power at the time that reflect a combination of callus indifference to the suffering of others coupled with a prevailing prejudice against the Irish in general and Catholics in particular.

Anymore than I make excuses for the

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 04:34 AM

1: »Quibbling with a post on this thread does not change historical facts"
I could not agree more sciencegeek and so far not one single fact provided indicates that there was ever any deliberate intent or plan on the part of the British Government to carry out a campaign of genocide in Ireland between 1845 and 1851. Now the fact that they could have handled things far better is not in doubt, but there was no deliberate campaign. On "Coffin" Ships here is another possible contender for ships that could justly be called "Coffin" Ships – Look up Sir Edward Pine Coffin, Commissary-General who between January 1846 and March 1848 directed that new built steam powered naval ships be used to distribute relief supplies on the West coasts of Ireland and Scotland, he specified those ships as they would not be dependent upon prevailing winds to successfully complete their voyages – Again hardly falls in with the line about a deliberate campaign of genocide does it?

2: "However many books our tabloid journalist has written - he remains a tabloid journalist and does not merit Keith's criterion (not mine) of a the qualified historian he was demanding from everybody else "

Ever looked up Tim Pat Coogan on Google?

"Timothy Patrick "Tim Pat" Coogan (born 22 April 1935) is an Irish historical writer, broadcaster and newspaper columnist. He served as editor of The Irish Press newspaper from 1968 to 1987."

So being perfectly logical and using your own criteria, if Sir Max Hastings cannot be described as a Historian because he was just a journalist, then neither can Tim Pat Coogan – True? Or as usual do you simply let your own bigotry take over, in order that you can just make stuff up as you go along?

By the way a historical writer is a different animal to a historian, I leave it to you to research the difference.

Now let us take a look at Sir Max Hastings:

"Sir Max Hugh Macdonald Hastings, FRSL, FRHistS (born 28 December 1945) is a British journalist, editor, historian and author."

The FRSL = Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature
The FRHistS = Fellow of the Royal Historical Society

So critically acclaimed by professional bodies in the fields of literature and history to the degree that he is welcomed into their most prestigious societies ( I would have thought that counted for something GBS was a FRSL IIRC)

Hastings in his time has supported both the Conservative Party and the Labour Party and has voted accordingly. He also is on record as having described Gordon Brown as "wholly psychologically unfit to be Prime Minister" – so no-one can fault the man's judgement or instincts .

3: As far as reading books go the work I have constantly referred to, which I have read and studied, has been the one that is generally regarded as the Definitive work on the Famine of 1845 to 1849 and that is Cecil Woodham-Smith's "The Great Hunger" and as I have previously stated on this thread she does not spare the British Government, but does give credit where it is due (Unlike yourself) and she provides no argument to suggest any deliberate campaign on the part of the British Government – no policy of Genocide.

4: As far as numbers went mg there were, and there are, records kept by both Shipping companies and port authorities of people landing, they are available on line for anyone wishing to look them up ("The Irish Times" has a particularly good one listing some 225 vessels that sailed between 1845 and 1851). It was a business mg and businesses run on paper.

You mentioned the Germans, as did I, the account you refer to, may well be correct, but it does not alter the fact discovered by Joel Mokyr during his research that more Germans died whilst on passage.

"1983: Why Ireland Starved: An Analytical and Quantitative Study of Irish Poverty, 1800-1851;

He dismisses widespread arguments that Irish poverty can be explained in terms of over-population, an evil land system or malicious exploitation by the British. Instead, he argues that the causes have to be sought in the low productivity of labour and the insufficient formation of physical capital -- results of the peculiar political and social structure of Ireland, continuous conflicts between landlords and tenants, and the rigidity of Irish economic institutions.

Irish history is often heavily coloured by political convictions: Mokyr brings to this controversial field not only wide research experience but also impartiality and scientific objectivity. The book is primarily aimed at numerate economic historians, historical demographers, economists specializing in agricultural economics and economic development and specialists in Irish and British nineteenth-century history."


Odd isn't it that during this same period people were flocking to America from all over Europe for exactly the same reasons that the Irish were emigrating – no accusations of genocide there though, strange really as in most of those countries their Governments did not lift a finger to help those fleeing.

On the mainland of the United Kingdom the West Coast of Scotland and the Highlands were particularly badly hit – yet the Scots do not accuse the British Government of any act of genocide.

In the closing years of the 17th century and the early years of the 18th century Scotland lost approximately 20% of its population to famine. It was one of the driving arguments for the Act of Union in 1707.

In the aftermath of the 45 Rebellion clearances that had started in the 17th century were accelerated, but the big difference here was that although land-owners wanted their former clansmen off the land they wanted them housed in new towns and villages that they had built (Helmsdale in Sutherland is one example of such a town) to work in cottage industries, fishing, kelping and in mines. Those dispossessed on the other had wanted to move further afield and this was the subject and inspiration of Burn's poem "Address of Beelzebub" written in 1786 and this is the foreword and introduction to it:

"To the Right Honourable the Earl of Breadalbane, President of the Right Honourable and Honourable the Highland Society, which met on the 23rd of May last at the Shakespeare, Covent Garden, to concert ways and means to frustrate the designs of five hundred Highlanders, who, as the Society were informed by Mr. M'Kenzie of Applecross, were so audacious as to attempt an escape from their lawful lords and masters whose property they were, by emigrating from the lands of Mr. Macdonald of Glengary to the wilds of Canada, in search of that fantastic thing-Liberty."

The Scottish Famines of 1690s and 1780 caused great loss of life, the Highland famine of 1846 to 1852 resulted in fewer deaths but caused over 1.7 million people to leave Scotland.

" Famine was a real prospect throughout the period, and certainly it was one of severe malnutrition, serious disease, crippling financial hardship and traumatic disruption to essentially agrarian communities. The causes of the crisis were similar to those of the Great Irish Famine and both famines were part of the wider food crisis facing Northern Europe caused by potato blight during the mid-1840s." - General summation given in Wiki, Highland Potato Famine

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 05:48 PM

You were wrong to post as if there was one accepted view.
Your view is actually a minority view.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:56 PM

Famine deaths

There is no evading the scale of the human catastrophe, but was anyone to blame?
No Keith - it was the will of God - Trevelyan said so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:51 PM

There is no evading the scale of the human catastrophe, but was anyone to blame?
There is no consensus, and you are wrong to claim otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:47 PM

"were caused by cholera and typhus"
Brought on by malnutrition, no access to water, lack of medical attention and exposure to the elements
What's your point?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:09 PM

Ah, PeeDee- more utter BS. Tell us: Have you ever read Coogan, Woodham-Smith Or Kinealy?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:49 PM

The vast majority of deaths in Ireland between 1845 and 1851 were caused by cholera and typhus, along with the usual causes: accidents and old age.

If someone really wants to know what causes cholera and typhus, they can do some research. Suffice it to say, overpopulation led to inadequate sanitation which led to disease.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:41 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:33 PM

That was one year - the famine lasted for 5
Those who were already ill whe they embarked had been left with no choice - the warehouses and workhouses had been closed - armed soldiers were set to guard over-full warehouses - there were reports of them firing on 'rioters' ie starving peasants demanding food.
The sick emigrants were left two alternatives - to die in the lanes or on board ship.
Maybe it wasn't 'human engineering' - maybe it was as Kinealy and Neilson said, it was callous indifference
Not convinced either way - but whatever - there's no evading the responsibility unless you ignore the fats and hide behind 'historians'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:02 PM

125,000 died on the voyage in one year alone 1847
Jim Carroll

how depressing... and this number is what some have included in the "but this number of people emmigrated" and therefore their demise somehow is no longer relevant to the discussion.

I'm sure that will draw some flack...

With the exception of the Williams side of my family, the rest came over fairly recently and without the heartbreak associated with other forced emmigrations.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 02:28 PM

125,000 died on the voyage in one year alone 1847
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 01:09 PM

"I really don't think they have a good idea of the numbers who died and emigrated"
I couldn't find an overall figure - just the specific ones from Coleman's book - which seems to indicate that the figures were massive
- see above (21 Mar 14 - 01:50 PM)
Wouldn't mattre to this pair of clowns anyway - they all died for a good cause - the Empire
More historians Keith - doesn't it tempt you to go and read one - eejit -either of you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 01:06 PM

Max Hasting, "tabloid journalist" and,
, spending a year (1967–68) as a Fellow of the World Press Institute, following which he published his first book, America, 1968: The Fire This Time, an account of the US in its tumultuous election year. He became a foreign correspondent and reported from more than sixty countries and eleven wars for BBC TV's 24 hours current affairs programme and for the Evening Standard in London. Hastings was the first journalist to enter the liberated Port Stanley during the 1982 Falklands War. After ten years as editor and then editor-in-chief of The Daily Telegraph, he returned to the Evening Standard as editor in 1996 until his retirement in 2002.[2] He received a knighthood in 2002. He was elected a member of the political dining society known as The Other Club in 1993.[3]
He has presented historical documentaries for the BBC and is the author of many books, including Bomber Command which earned the Somerset Maugham Award for non-fiction in 1980. Both Overlord and The Battle for the Falklands won the Yorkshire Post Book of the Year prize. He was named Journalist of the Year and Reporter of the Year at the 1982 British Press Awards, and Editor of the Year in 1988. In 2010 he received the Royal United Services Institute's Westminster Medal for his "lifelong contribution to military literature", and the same year the Edgar Wallace Award from the London Press Club.[2]
In 2012 he was awarded the US$100,000 Pritzker Military Library Literature Award, a lifetime achievement award for military writing, which includes an honorarium, citation and medallion, sponsored by the Chicago-based Tawani Foundation.[4]
Hastings is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature, and the Royal Historical Society. He was President of the Campaign to Protect Rural England from 2002–2007.
In his 2007 book Nemesis: The Battle for Japan, 1944–45 (also known as Retribution in the United States), the chapter on Australia's role in the last year of the Pacific War was criticised by the chief of the Returned and Services League of Australia and one of the historians at the Australian War Memorial for allegedly exaggerating discontent in the Australian Army during this period.[5] Dan van der Vat in The Guardian called it "even-handed", "refreshing" and "sensitive", and praised the language used.[6] The Spectator called it "brilliant" and praised his telling of the human side of the story.[7]

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 12:59 PM

So - someone Didn't like Coogan's book - so what

Errr, not just someone, but Professor Liam Kennedy

BSc, MSc (NUI), PhD (York), FRHistS
Professor Emeritus of Economic & Social History
E-mail: [e-mail]
Liam Kennedy was born in rural Tipperary under the star sign of Leo (or was it Taurus?), well before the era of Radio Telefis Eireann and the Friesian cow. His undergraduate degree was in food science but he experienced a later Pauline conversion to history. His formative intellectual influences included Raymond Crotty (Irish agricultural production), Sir John Hicks (A theory of economic history), Edna O'Brien (The country girls) and the Tipperary Star. In 2005 he held a visiting professorship at the University of Toronto and is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts. Liam Kennedy retired from the academic staff in September 2011, but remains an active member of the Queen's History community.
Research Interests

Themes of rural social change dominated his earlier research interests, and still retain an emotional charge. Increasingly, however, his interests have shifted towards the study of long-term social change in Ireland, extending from the 17th to the 20th century. Historical studies of wages, prices and living standards, as well as secular change in the political and religious demography of Ireland have come to the fore. Other interests include Belfast in 1911, and bastardy and the Irish. In his darker moments he contests the notion of the MOPE syndrome: that in the comparative historical stakes the Irish were the most oppressed people ever.
Select Publications

Books:
(With Peter Solar), Irish Agriculture: A Price History from the mid-18th century to the eve of the First World War, 1755–1913 (Dublin: Royal Irish Academy, 2007).
(Ed., with R.J. Morris), Scotland and Ireland: order and disorder, 1600–2000 (Edinburgh: John Donald, 2005).
(With L.A. Clarkson et al), Mapping the Great Irish Famine (Dublin: Four Courts Press, 1999).
(Ed., with Isabelle Devos), Marriage and the rural economy: western Europe since 1400 (Brussels, 1999).
Colonialism, religion and nationalism in Ireland (Belfast: Institute of Irish Studies, 1996).

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: mg
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 12:58 PM

I really don't think they have a good idea of the numbers who died and emigrated...especially to England...are there ships manifests of who went to Liverpool from Ireland? Would a captain of a decrepit timber ship bother to take laborious records of his starving passengers?

As for the Germans, a witness to one unloading said the Germans came out singing and the Irish came out crawling.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 12:23 PM

So - someone Didn't like Coogan's book - so what - I read it and gave my opinion keep up
However many books our tabloid journalist has written - he remains a tabloid journalist and does not merit Keith's criterion (not mine) of a the qualified historian he was demanding from everybody else - but there you go - that's Keith for you.
As you have made no detailed criticism of Coogan's book you appear not to have read it - but there again, you seldom give detailed quotes on anything - just cut-'n-paste swoops and divine inspiration presumably - just like Keith.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong on the basis of having read something and got it wrong - I don't slavishly follow any agenda - I'm not a flag-wagger - unlike you pair of morons, I'm not a God Save England, Ireland or wherever
I certainly don't describe people as whining Irish - like you pair of prats
As I said to your friend - go read a book and stop relying on the good o''three Bs - bullshit, bullying and bluster - you don't impress
Happy Christmas

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 12:11 PM

The term "coffin ship" was in use long before 1847 and had nothing whatsoever to do with "deplorable conditions that resulted in high mortality" - That the term was hijacked does not surprise me in the least - but at least have the honesty to recognise it for what it is."

So now I'm the dishonest one... back to poounding my head against the wall...

SO - If it's qualifiers that you need... as a result of the high mortality aboard many of the ships used to transport Irish refugees during the potato famine, the term coffins ships was applied to those ships. As opposed to your insistence that it could only refer to overloaded and over insured ships.   

"Erie Canal Greg F? The topic was introduced by sciencegeek who mentioned it's construction NOT it's future modifications – I merely pointed out to him who actually was involved in its original construction."   

Here is my actual statement: And we live within 50 miles of the Erie Canal... renowned for the large Irish workforce involved in its construction. Pardon me for leaving out the fact that the Erie Canal is now part of the NYS Barge Canal System and as you drive along the NYS Thruway you will see preserved remanants of the original canal as well as sections of the current day canal.

The dang thing has been built & rebuilt over the years since 1825... you just assumed that I could only mean the original construction... just as you have assumed that HER is a HIM. Sorry - no Y chromosome in this geek.

Quibbling with a post on this thread does not change historical facts, it only represents a desperate need to preserve one's fixed opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 11:54 AM

Tim Pat Coogan's Book that Christmas & Co are hailing as being the new bible did not stand up all that well to critical review:

"I can't think of a single historian who has researched the Famine in depth – and Tim Pat has not researched it in depth. One of the striking things about this book is the narrowness of the evidential sources he uses and indeed they're presented so badly. Titles are misquoted. You might even say the title of his own book, The Plot, is itself misleading, and indeed the subtitle, England's Role in Ireland's Greatest Tragedy. Well it was Britain, not the United Kingdom. That's an old nationalist trope: England the neverending source of Ireland's ills. I find it terribly difficult, and I'm not being unkind, to find any redeeming feature in this book. That's its only point of originality. It's outdated, outmoded, and could I say, I was pleased to see that at moments you did engage with some modern scholarship, like Joel Mokyr, the great Dutch historian … of the Great Famine. I don't think you understood what he was saying. You have a phrase at one point – excess mortality – numbers per cent per thousand – that phrase means nothing. You clearly didn't understand what he was saying. And when you talk about coffin ships, one of the searing images of the Famine – appalling – and of course I accept that the Great Famine was a vast catastrophe, that's the title of one of my publications on this, but even when talking about coffin ships, surely you need to set that in context. The Grosse Isle experience was appalling, I've been to Grosse Isle, I've seen those graves, but that was not typical of transatlantic shipping during the Famine. If you had read Joel Mokyr and others, as your references seem to suggest, you would see quite clearly that Mokyr says that that first year of shipping particularly to the mouth of Saint Lawrence was untypical and that mortality on ships across the Atlantic was less than 5 per cent. Less actually than German emigrants migrating to North America in the same time period. So either you're guilty of incredibly selective reading or, I just wonder, have you lost the plot? Did you really understand what you were reading at times? - Professor Liam Kennedy

Tim Pat does admit that he targets what he calls "academic historians", I suppose he means those that have studied history and who have had to prove their ability to do so. He certainly has not.

So Tim Pat has written 6 books has he? Well if that is your metric Max Hastings has written 26 - only one subject you say? Work it out for yourself:

America, 1968: The Fire This Time (Gollancz, 1969) ISBN 0-575-00234-4
Ulster 1969

The Fight for Civil Rights in Northern Ireland (Gollancz, 1970) ISBN 0-575-00482-7

Montrose: The King's Champion (Gollancz, 1977) ISBN 0-575-02226-4

Bomber Command (Michael Joseph, 1979) ISBN 0-7181-1603-8

Battle of Britain by Len Deighton, Max Hastings (Jonathan Cape, 1980) ISBN 0-224-01826-4

Yoni — Hero of Entebbe: Life of Yonathan Netanyahu (Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1980) ISBN 0-297-77565-0

Das Reich: Resistance and the March of the Second SS Panzer Division Through France, June 1944 (Michael Joseph, 1981) ISBN 0-7181-2074-4

Das Reich: March of the Second SS Panzer Division Through France (Henry Holt & Co, 1982) ISBN 0-03-057059-X

The Battle for the Falklands by Max Hastings, Simon Jenkins (W W Norton, 1983) ISBN 0-393-01761-3, (Michael Joseph, 1983) ISBN 0-7181-2228-3

Overlord: D-Day and the Battle for Normandy (Simon & Schuster, 1984) ISBN 0-671-46029-3

The Oxford Book of Military Anecdotes (ed.) (Oxford University Press, 1985) ISBN 0-19-214107-4

Victory in Europe (Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1985) ISBN 0-297-78650-4

The Korean War (Michael Joseph, 1987) ISBN 0-7181-2068-X, (Simon & Schuster, 1987) ISBN 0-671-52823-8

Outside Days (Michael Joseph, 1989) ISBN 0-7181-3330-7

Victory in Europe: D-Day to V-E Day (Little Brown & C, 1992) ISBN 0-316-81334-6

Scattered Shots (Macmillan, 1999) ISBN 0-333-77103-6

Going to the Wars (Macmillan, 2000) ISBN 0-333-77104-4

Editor: A Memoir (Macmillan, 2002) ISBN 0-333-90837-6

Armageddon: The Battle for Germany 1944–45 (Macmillan, 2004) ISBN 0-333-90836-8

Warriors: Exceptional Tales from the Battlefield (HarperPress [UK], 2005) ISBN 978-0-00-719756-9

Country Fair (HarperCollins, October 2005) ISBN 0-00-719886-8.

Nemesis: The Battle for Japan, 1944–45 (HarperPress [UK], October 2007) ISBN 0-00-721982-2 (re-titled Retribution: The Battle for Japan, 1944–45 for US release Knopf ISBN 978-0-307-26351-3)

Finest Years: Churchill as Warlord, 1940–45. London, HarperPress, 2009. ISBN 978-0-00-726367-7 (re-titled Winston's War: Churchill, 1940–1945 for US release by Knopf, 2010, ISBN 978-0-307-26839-6)

Did You Really Shoot the Television?: A Family Fable. London, HarperPress, 2010. ISBN 978-0-00-727171-9

All Hell Let Loose: The World At War, 1939–1945. London, HarperPress, 29 September 2011. ISBN 978-0-00-733809-2 (re-titled Inferno: The World At War, 1939–1945 for US release by Knopf, 1 November 2011, ISBN 978-0-307-27359-8. 729 pp)

Catastrophe 1914: Europe Goes to War. London, Knopf Press, Release Date 24 September 2013, ISBN 978-0307597052, 640 pp.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 11:40 AM

So there we have it
First class transportation
No enforced Emigratuin
No God's will
No closure of food stores and workhouses
No laissez-fairer policy
No Evictions
No Land War
No partition
No sectarian strife
No near century of National conflict
And above all - no evidence - just denial
Rule Britannia
Utter ethnic cleansing delial without a shred of evidence to back ity up - have you met Keth - let me introduce you,you should get on - he's a nationalist nutter as well
Yours
Christmas
PS - now new nickname so - no imagination

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 11:17 AM

Lame, T-Bird- you were trying to imply that no Famine-period Irish emigrants were involved working on the Erie Canal. And you were wrong.

Nice tap-dancing, tho.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 11:03 AM

"And I have no idea where you got your fairy tale about "coffin ships", but the name came from the deplorable conditions that resulted in high mortality" - sciencegeek - 19 Mar 14 - 01:05 PM

The term "coffin ship" was in use long before 1847 and had nothing whatsoever to do with "deplorable conditions that resulted in high mortality" - That the term was hijacked does not surprise me in the least - but at least have the honesty to recognise it for what it is.

In your first example the "Virginius" why did you omit to mention that among those who died on the voyage were the vessel's Master, First and Second Mates and damn near the entire crew, (I take it they must have been sharing the same deplorable conditions), and the loss of the bulk of the ship's crew must have affected her performance under sail with only one officer, a couple of men and one boy left to handle her – a bit selective of you isn't it sciencegeek (Go back and read that historical check list for the US's legal standard for "historians" –you will find out that you do not match up)

Now then Christmas:   
"You have had the facts on immigration" – No idea how many people entered Ireland during the famine years as immigrants Christmas – perhaps all these evil Brits wishing to cash in on this economic and political bonanza you keep prattling on about, but seem unable to provide any evidence of ever having occurred. We do however know the numbers of Irishmen, women and children who emigrated from Ireland and entered mainland Britain, Canada and the United States of America.

"You have had the facts on Britain's solution" - Yes repeal the laws that kept the price of crops artificially high and allow the cheap import of cereals, setting up of a means of distributing relief. When that failed due to the scale of the problem they put in place measures to move people off the land whether to towns and cities in Ireland, or on mainland Britain, or by emigration to Canada or the United States of America. With the exception of Belfast, Ireland generally had never undergone either an agrarian revolution or an industrial revolution as mainland Britain had. Therefore work opportunities in the major centres of population in Ireland, apart from Belfast, were minimal, so most left Ireland for mainland Britain. The measures obviously worked because subsequent to the famine of 1845 to 1851 while rare periodic periods occurred in which there were food shortages, there was never another famine in Ireland (Or Scotland for that matter). Doesn't alter the fact that during the period in question Britain paid for 750,000 people working on relief projects and fed 3 million - weird sort of "genocide" don't you think?

"You have had the facts on the conditions on the coffin ships" - Yes standard practice at the time for transporting people on ships that were essentially cargo vessels. Oh and for all your heart rending examples, designed and repeated time and time again to appeal to the furthering of this emotive claptrap and myth the following can be seen - "that first year of shipping (1847) particularly to the mouth of Saint Lawrence was untypical and that mortality on ships across the Atlantic was less than 5 per cent. Less actually than German emigrants migrating to North America in the same time period." – Professor Liam Kennedy of Queens College quoting Professor Joel Mokyr Were those Germans all part of the same diabolical British plot then Christmas?? Read some accounts and they speak of how healthy and happy the German emigrants were, but the figures tell a different story according to Joel Mokyr. Your Mr Laxton, gave the figure that five thousand trips were made across the Atlantic with Irish emigrants during the six years of the Famine Emigration And your Mr. Terry Coleman mentions that the total number of emigrant ships that were lost making the trans-Atlantic crossing amounted to 59 – So just over 1% of the ships foundered – Take a look at the statistics for Cape Horn they make that 1% loss rate look good going for the vessels of the period and the times. The purpose built ships for the passage of emigrants (Such as the "City of Adelaide" that carried emigrants to Australia) generally post date the period under discussion.

"You have had a summing up of post famine history" - Your "victims version" fueled by illogical, fictionalized, emotive claptrap, or fact? In 1879 the crop failed in Ireland, this caused hunger and there were food shortages, but not the death toll – why? Because of changes in the technology of food production, primarily enabled by the disappearance of the tiny subdivided plots of land. The disappearance of the cotter tenant ("i.e. those who left the land during the famine we are discussing), in short the land could be farmed a damn sited more efficiently. Post famine history also tells us that post 1840s in Ireland a railroad system was built that allowed food to be transported to the west of Ireland in days rather than months. The phenomenon of those emigrating post 1845-1851 famine came about simply by those people exercising their own free will or as a result of panic as was seen in 1879 – It most certainly did not come about by any deliberate plan instigated by any British Government as you contend.

One of your post famine songs about emigration puts it beautifully - written by Liam Reilly IIRC - Flight of Earls

It's not murder fear or famine
that makes us leave this time
We're not going to join McAlpine's Fusiliers
We've got brains and we've vision
We've got education too
And we just can't throw away these precious years"

The song was written about the state of affairs in Ireland in 1981/82 and the reason they left was because there was no work for them to do pure and simple - so in an Ireland that had been completely independent for 60 years it was still Britain's fault? Just how pathetic do you wish to paint yourselves?

Erie Canal Greg F? The topic was introduced by sciencegeek who mentioned it's construction NOT it's future modifications – I merely pointed out to him who actually was involved in its original construction.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 09:26 AM

Should we take that as a no Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 09:22 AM

Is he qualified at all Greg? Is he a member of any learned societies?

Fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 05:53 AM

We often say that it takes two to have an argument.
Here we have an exception to the rule.

I have not argued against anything you have said.

You have made general attacks on me, and argued against things I have never said, without once challenging one single thing that I have said!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:51 AM

BUT I AM NOT ARGUING!!!.
I merely state facts that you do not and can not deny.

You posted your version of events, at very great length, as if it was the only one.
I merely pointed out that it was not.

Someone then posted a piece by Kinealy, who is in a position to know, where she states that historians who support your view are in a minority and long have been.

That is my whole case and you can not deny any of it.
No argument at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:16 AM

I have no intention of re-entering an argument with an extreme nationalist who distorts history and historians to make his nationalist case
You cannot possibly know what historians say without having read what they have written - stop inventing things you have admitted you know nothing about - take your extremist propaganda somewhere else and stop fouling up wht should be interesting and informative discussions
You've blown it with your manipulative stupidity
Stop buggering up these thread with your extremism and ignorance
Piss off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:16 AM

I have no intention of re-entering an argument with an extreme nationalist who distorts history and historians to make his nationalist case
You cannot possibly know what historians say without having read what they have written - stop inventing things you have admitted you know nothing about - take your extremist propaganda somewhere else and stop fouling up wht should be interesting and informative discussions
You've blown it with your manipulative stupidity
Stop buggering up these thread with your extremism and ignorance
Piss off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:42 AM

Famine History books that do not blame Britain never become best sellers, even though they may be acclaimed among historians.
Being a best selling historian is not equivalent to being a good one.

Historians who blame Britain are a minority even if they are best sellers, and those who claim it was genocide are a minority of one.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:35 AM

"Is he a member of any learned societies?"
Pompous ******* nonsense
Tim Pat Coogan is one of the most respected hitorians in Ireland today on the subject of Irish political history with a dozen best-selling books to his credit
Putting historians on pedestals because they have letters behind their name is dangerous idolatry
Junking respected historians because they haven't is the equivalent to book-burning.
Doing both without having read either is straightforward mindless propaganda.
Not so long ago you were basing your argument on World War one on a tabloid journalist who works for an extreme right-wing newspaper, has no historical qualifications whatever but has written a book on military tactics - you insisted over and over again he was a historian, despite the fact he had never sat a history qualification in his life
You hadn't read his or anybody else's book on the subject either.
Max Hastings is a tabloid journalist with an interest in a single aspaect World War One.
If he is a "historian" with one book under his belt - Tim Pat Coogan, with a dozen books and a life-long study of the subject of Irish political and social history behind him is a thousand times more a historian   - you cannot pick and choose which historians are good or bad because they appear to suit your case - at least, that's what you claim.
Who the hell do you think you are?
You boast that yopu've never read a book on the subject yet you reserve the right to denigrate writers you have never read - you are an extremist nutter.
Stop goose-stepping your way through this forum.
I said I was not going to continue this argument with you and I have no intentions of doing so - I just wanted to put your blatant propagandising into context.
Over and out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 02:24 PM

Is he qualified at all Greg?
Is he a member of any learned societies?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 12:56 PM

Coogan does, but is he an historian?

Fuckwit.

He's one of the top of the line.

Once you learn to read, try reading his book(s).

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 12:38 PM

Do any historians make the genocide accusation?
Coogan does, but is he an historian?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 11:51 AM

"But at least I got a partial list of historians"
If you've got time on your hands, take a look at 'The Famine Atlas'.
It's a doorstep of a book and far too expensive to buy casually, but if your library has it, take a look.
A remarkable regional survey and well worth dipping into regularly - it's not a continuous read; just an excellent reference.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 10:02 AM

But I am not arguing.
I am merely pointing out that that there are differing views among historians.
That is a fact and you can not and do not deny it.
I simply do not understand why it makes you so angry and abusive.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 09:59 AM

Straight line: "Why do you keep hitting your head against the wall?"

Punch line: "Because it feels so good when I stop."

But at least I got a partial list of historians to look into when I have more time on my hands. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 09:37 AM

I really would be grateful if somebody would remind me if anything resembling one of these farces shows its ugly head - apologies to all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 09:10 AM

"Kinealy tells us that the revisionists are dominant."
Kineley doesn't tell anybody who doesn't read her (or anybody's) books anything, you pompous moron.
This has gone far enough
Someone pointed out that they had this thread transferred from the Skibbereen thread and that both of us were to blame for ruining that one - he was right.
We have destroyed thread are thread with these stupid, stupid black-hole arguments
You come to these subjects with no prior knowledge - you go away with none.
You don't even read your own cut-'n-pastes and you certainly don't read what anybody puts up here.
I've done with this - until you actually show enough interest to find out about these subjects I suggest, for the good of this forum and its members I request you do follow suit.
You are a cancerous growth on what is otherwise an excellent source of knowledge.
Stay out of my face - I really am not qualified to deal with special needs children
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 08:48 AM

How can you think Woodham Smith and Coogan are revisionists?!
You still have not worked out the what is being discussed!

Historians dispute blame.
That is a fact and my only case in this whole discussion.

Kinealy tells us that the revisionists are dominant.
She tells us that the nationalist Woodham-Smith's work is derided by academic historians as a work of fiction. A "novel" they said.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 07:28 AM

You vindictively re-opened this thread to try to score some points - you have managed to humiliate yourself further
Go away - you are embarrassing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 06:56 AM

"You have only read books that tell your chosen version of events."
You have no idea of either what books I have read or what my 'version of events' might be again, you are diverting the discussion away from the balls you have made of it.
You cannot possibly be influenced by the "findings of historians" if you have never read what those findings are - you have proved that over and over again
My "vast tracts" have largely come from Kinealy, who a fellow Mudcatter introduced to this forum, followed by Neilson - both used by you to support your case and both blown up in your face.
How ****** dare you claim to know what I read, and how dare you suggest I am selective in my reading you dishonest little shit
Have I read any "revisionist" historians - I introduced Cecil Woodham Smith into this discussion - you wrote her off as "revisionist" - Tim Pat Coogan "revisionist republican.
I have always read as widely as possible on any subject that interests me - it's you who "selects" what you never get round to reading.
Try Robert Kee, Cathal Portair, Grieves Barder, Mansegher, Percival, Gallagher - even Marx and Engles... an entire spectrum of writers giving dozens of points of view in Irish history
and the dozen more I have on the shelves here - not counting the countless library books I've borrowed down the years.
You apparently don't even bother to read your own posts - you are apparently suffering from a sever bout of studied illiteracy on every singly subject you choose to foul up with your ignorance.
Now go and read a book
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 05:39 AM

You have only read books that tell your chosen version of events.
Read any revisionist historians Jim?

I have an open mind, but I am influenced by the findings of historians.
I know that there is dispute.
You post vast tracts of text that give one version only, and a minority view at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 04:14 AM

"Jim and I discussed both books at length "
What!!!!
You are lying - I mentioned the books - you dismissed them both out of hand as "revisionist Republicanism" ; only someone with your twisted imagination can describe that as having "discussed" it.
You have still not read it, nor any other single book
Your not having read anything on the subject makes anything you have to say totally invalid on two counts
You have no knowledge authoritative knowledge on which to base your jingoistic claims - only your "Britain didn't ever do anything bad" jingoism.
Your boastful, "I have never read a book on the subject" indicates that you have no interest in the subjects you vandalise with your studies ignorance, other than to defend Britain's role - in this case, in one of history's great crimes against humanity.
I have since read Coogan's book and find it convincingly impressive, though inconclusive - he, at least attempts to explain Trevelyan's statement - you continue to totally ignore it - further evidence of your flag-wagging agenda (you really have no interest in facts if they don't suit your bigotry.
I'm delighted you have linked to the debate - it shows your dishonest, your ignorance, your inventive lying lying by scooping up undigested quotes because you believe (usually mistakenly) that they back up your case.
The thread is a classic example of vacillation and spectacular u-turns.
As for your on-going ignorance of the term "revisionism"....
You want to be a contender - read a book - then you might have something to say worth responding to
"Jim and I discussed both books at length" - a classic case for framing and hanging on the wall - you are a joke
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 03:03 AM

The discussion is here.
Read it yourself.
thread.cfm?threadid=151520&messages=452

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:19 PM

How did you do that, Keith, since you have never read either one?

Fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 06:59 PM

Jim and I discussed both books at length on previous thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 06:23 PM

Once our resident I-saw-it-on-the-internet-so-it-must-be-true bumper-sticker "historian" and professional fuckwit Keith has read Coogan - assuming that he actually is able to read, that is - he might also pick up Cecil Woodham-Smith's "The Great Hunger".

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 05:28 PM

The Famine Plot blurb...

During a Biblical seven years in the middle of the nineteenth century, Ireland experienced the worst disaster a nation could suffer. Fully a quarter of its citizens either perished from starvation or emigrated, with so many dying en route that it was said, "you can walk dry shod to America on their bodies." In this grand, sweeping narrative, Ireland''s best-known historian, Tim Pat Coogan, gives a fresh and comprehensive account of one of the darkest chapters in world history, arguing that Britain was in large part responsible for the extent of the national tragedy, and in fact engineered the food shortage in one of the earliest cases of ethnic cleansing. So strong was anti-Irish sentiment in the mainland that the English parliament referred to the famine as "God's lesson."

Drawing on recently uncovered sources, and with the sharp eye of a seasoned historian, Coogan delivers fresh insights into the famine's causes, recounts its unspeakable events, and delves into the legacy of the "famine mentality" that followed immigrants across the Atlantic to the shores of the United States and had lasting effects on the population left behind. This is a broad, magisterial history of a tragedy that shook the nineteenth century and still impacts the worldwide Irish diaspora of nearly 80 million people today."

Of course, the lower classes of their own nation were hardly treated any better. But their hard labor was needed to keep the mills and factories running... so they got the food instead of the Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 04:41 PM

The Famine Plot- has all the answers, by Tim Pat Coogan. Amazon will provide it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:55 PM

"This is obviously another subject you know nothing about but have lots of opinions on."
You mean he hasn't read a book?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:32 PM


I think it's rational to accept that the Irish famine happened because England wanted it to happen and did nothing to alleviate it.

This is obviously another subject you know nothing about but have lots of opinions on.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:04 PM

This is a very informative debate with many facts being presented.

One point I think that is overlooked is the religious war between the "Proddies" and the "Papists", an ongoing war since Henry VIII.

There will apparently be defenders and deniers of oppression whether emanating in England, US or Israel, offering rationalizations for the abuse of human rights based on some spurious and prejudiced propaganda fostering nationalist views.

These views are tantamount to Holocaust deniers hiding behind some warped idea of history.

It's the same as the whining of Creationists about not having "equal time" with scientific discoveries.

I think it's rational to accept that the Irish famine happened because England wanted it to happen and did nothing to alleviate it. The real cause of the Irish famine was oppression.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:09 PM

So that's two historians then.
I accept that.
Kinealy also states that most do not find the government culpable.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:03 PM

Then feel free to contradict
You've had Kinealy's statement on who is to blame - you've ignored it
You've had Neilson's statement on who is to blame - you havew ignored it
You have had Trevelyan's statement - you won't even acknowledge it   
You have had entire documents specifically blaming British inaction and leaving it to the open market - you have ignored them
You have had the stated policy of forced immigration - you have ignored it
Game, set and match
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 01:57 PM

reiterated by every single historian writing on the subject

I do not need to prove that such a ridiculous claim is false!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 09:07 AM

"Of course it has not!"
Yup it has - prove it hasn't
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:59 AM

found another gem from wiki... it would seem that the US has set a legal standard for "historians", thanks to right wing Holocaust deniers.

During the Irving v Penguin Books and Lipstadt trial it became evident that the court needed to identify what was an "objective historian" in the same vein as the reasonable person, and reminiscent of the standard traditionally used in English law of "the man on the Clapham omnibus".[3] This was necessary so that there would be a legal bench mark with which to compare and contrast the scholarship of an objective historian against the methods employed by David Irving, as before the Irving v Penguin Books and Lipstadt trial there was no legal precedent for what constituted an objective historian.[3]

Justice Charles Gray leant heavily on the research of one of the expert witnesses, Richard J. Evans, who compared illegitimate distortion of the historical record practice by holocaust deniers with established historical methodologies.[4]

In summarising Gray's judgement, in an article published in the Yale Law Journal, Wendie E. Schneider distils these seven points for what he meant by an objective historian:[5]

       The historian must treat sources with appropriate reservations;
       The historian must not dismiss counterevidence without scholarly consideration;
       The historian must be even-handed in treatment of evidence and eschew "cherry-picking";
       The historian must clearly indicate any speculation;
       The historian must not mistranslate documents or mislead by omitting parts of documents;
       The historian must weigh the authenticity of all accounts, not merely those that contradict a favored view; and
       The historian must take the motives of historical actors into consideration.

Schneider uses the concept of the "objective historian" to suggest that this could be used as an aid in assessing what makes a historian suitable to be an expert witnesses under the Daubert standard in the United States. Schneider proposed this, because, in her opinion, Irving could have passed the standard Daubert tests unless a court was given "a great deal of assistance from historians".[6]

Schneider proposes that by testing a historian against the criteria of the "objective historian" then, even if a historian holds specific political views (and she gives an example of a well-qualified historian's testimony that was disregarded by a United States court because he was a member of a feminist group), providing the historian uses the "objective historian" standards, he or she is a "conscientious historian". It was Irving's failure as an "objective historian" not his right wing views that caused him to lose his libel case, as a "conscientious historian" would not have "deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence" to support his political views.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:48 AM

well, thanks to "debate" above, the name Christine Kinealy came up. The geek did some searching & found this interesting book for young people co-authored by her. I dare say, good reading for any age... especially us old foggies.


Making Sense of History: Evidence in Ireland for the Young Historian (Ulster Historical Foundation Publications)

This book will help you find out about the different types of evidence which historians study when doing their historical research. It also provides examples of this evidence, on which you will be able to carry out your own research. Some sources are very rare and are the only remaining evidence of a time in the past; other periods, especially the recent past, have lots of evidence which must be tested for bias and accuracy. This book will give you background information and advice about evidence in all its forms. This will enable you to develop the skills of a young historian.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 04:14 PM

Musket, I did not use the words "true" or "truth" to describe anyone's opinion.
Only to describe absolute facts, i.e. that many historians do not find that the government was culpable, and that Kinealy stated that they are the majority.

Jim,
and haas been reiterated by every single historian writing on the subject

Of course it has not!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 01:50 PM

"I am a bit confused about some of the Erie Canal proclamations"
Terry Coleman's 'Passage to America' carries a great deal of information of who left from where and landed where - excellent starting point for anybody following up queries.
Jim Carroll
His account fo the early disasters
Jim Carroll
"In the first week of May 1847 the Liverpool Telegraph and Shipping Gazette carried a paragraph saying the King of Holland had strongly recommended the Emperor of Japan to throw open his country to the Europeans so as not to run the risk of being bombarded into civilization like the Chinese, and a letter, on something nearer home, from a correspondent who signed himself as One Long Connected with the Shipping Interests of Liverpool. He wrote:
Another emigrant ship has foundered and 248 of our fellow creatures have been launched, unshrived, into eternity. And another, and another, will share the same fate unless a strict and searching inquiry be instituted to ascertain if man is not guilty in some measure of causing so great a sacrifice of human life. The tale of one unfortunate vessel is the tale of many ... A few days and the circumstance is forgotten - it is only the foundering of an emigrant ship - remembered but by relatives. Of the 251 passen¬gers (the supposed number on board) only three escaped. The rest were drowned 'between decks' or washed from the wreck. No agonizing cry was heard - no piercing scream for help arose above the howling of the waves - all were silent, speechless, and sank into the sleep of mute death... O God! it is a most harrowing picture.1
The ship was the Exmouth, out of Londonderry bound for Quebec, and wrecked on the west coast of the Scottish island of Islay. She was an old vessel, launched in 1818, but she was in good repair. She foundered in a chasm. Later 108 bodies were recovered, hooked up by men who were lowered by ropes from the summit of the rocks on either side. Most of the dead were women and children, who were naked and mutilated, some without faces, others without heads or limbs. They were separately wrapped in sheets by two men named Campbell, who saw to their decent interment in a spot near the cliffs.
Fifty-nine emigrant ships to America were lost in the years 1847—53, and the Foundering Emigrant Ship was a clas¬sical Victorian disaster, much reported. The Powhattan, bound for Philadelphia, was wrecked on 16 April 1854 off the coast of New Jersey. She was stranded within eight yards of the low-water mark, so near that the passengers and crew could hear and reply to the suggestions made by those on shore, and though she did not break up for nearly twenty-four hours after she struck, no one from her reached the shore alive. The California Packet, a brig of 292 tons carrying pig iron, advertised to sail on 29 August 1853, finally did sail on 6 October, put back the next day, sailed again only on 3 November, and was abandoned the next day when she began to leak. The boats were not provisioned, the master abandoned the passengers seventy miles off the coast of Ireland, and made off. Three adults and fourteen children died.6 The summer of 1849 was a bad one. The brig Hannah, 287 tons, having had large repairs, and a new deck, sailed from Newry for Quebec, and struck an iceberg; 129 passengers were saved but fifty or sixty were crushed by the ice.6 In mid-July the Maria, with 111 passengers from Lim¬erick to Quebec, also struck an iceberg, and there were only nine survivors.' That same month the brig Charles Bartlett of Plymouth, Mass., bound from London to New York, was run down by the Cunard steamer Europa, 1,918 tons.
Forty-two of the brig's 142 passengers were saved, and the steamship company 'voluntarily intimated to the Mayor of Liverpool their intention of forwarding, free of charge, by their next two steamers to America, the persons saved from the wreck'.
The best-documented wreck of all was that of the OceanMonarch, which burned and sank in the Mersey barely out of Liverpool on 24th August 1848, with the loss of 176 lives"

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 01:44 PM

yes indeed, mg the settlement of North America has a long and tangled history. Which is why you can not take one single fact and then try to apply it to all situations.

And is why I posted links to the National Park Service so that folks could look for themselves and draw their own conclusions.

There was a period of time when canal building was extensive since water transport is cheaper than overland... or at least it was until the boom in building railroads - thanks to advances in engine design.   Some canals were only half constructed when railroads were built past them. But both require large labor forces to construct... so the labor force went where the jobs were.

The reference to Ellis Island was me being more than a little annoyed about the blythe dismissal of New York being a major port of call for immigrant ships because Quebec was also a major port of call. Like there was only room on the continent for one? I'm still unclear as to what point that was supposed support... it just felt like one more distortion.

Oh.. and the term coffin ship was in common usage prior to the famine... meaning a ship that was overloaded and unsafe to sail. The term was then later used to describe the many ships that had no business carrying passengers, much less packing them full of immigrants. Since Lloyds of London insured shipping, they established some rules in an effort to ensure that cargo shipping met some safety standards... but they did not copyright the term and as long as you define the context in which you use the term, no reason to carry on about its use.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 01:16 PM

I would have read Terribulus's posts but he isn't fucking important enough.



Why does Keith tend to use the words true and truth when referring to historian opinion? Has he any idea what historians actually write?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: mg
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 12:53 PM

I am a bit confused about some of the Erie Canal proclamations. My ancestors were not Scots-Irish, they were not civil engineers and we believe they worked on the Erie and other canals. They ended up in Iowa as laborers and farmers. This would be the early 1850s.

Many ships landed in Quebec, and very many in New Brunswick, especially at first because of the trade of carrying big timber to England and then having basically empty ships. Those were prime coffin ships because they were absolutely unsuited to human transportation..they would just rig up some bunks, have no accomodations for toilets, and were generally awful. Many people took them with no other recourse, and ended up walking through Vermont I believe and on to the Niagra Falls area and further south.

Ellis Island came later. There was Castle Gardens before...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:59 AM

PeeDee, what the hell are you going on about?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:57 AM

"Marxist Lefties "
Ah - leftie plot!
Never thought of that
Came from one of Keith's historians (see Nielson) and haas been reiterated by every single historian writing on the subject - read the thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:55 AM

You forgot 'or the First World War with Keith', there, Science.

T-Bird, you should have read up on Erie Canal history before making an arse of yourself: The first enlargement of the Erie Canal took place between 1835 and 1862- and employed more men that the initial construction. Ditto the interconnecting Champlain Canal. So shove your 1817 to 1832 "Scots Irish" engineers.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:45 AM

"The Famine was the greatest calamity in Irish history. People needlessly died due to cold-hearted indifference and the elevation of the market above the lives of people. Nowhere near enough aid was given as prejudice won out over compassion. Laissez faire turned into Leave them to die."

This is a very telling statement. It shows that the Irish history revisionists and the Marxist Lefties are working together to divide people and foment hatred, just about all that they ever offer.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:28 AM

"What's the matter Christmas you seem to stuttering or frothing a great deal today?"
Nothing but bluster - damn - thought we were on the point of a real breakthough
Ah well!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:26 AM

Jim,
You have had the facts on historians.
Most do not support your version of events.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:24 AM

OK... in terms that you might understand, though I'm not holding out much hope.

Entering into "discussions" with you on the topic of the Irish Potato Blight is as productive as trying to discuss the Holocaust with a NeoNazi...

or the issue of segregation and discrimination of Blacks with a White Supremacist...

or the scientific study of evolution with a Christian Fundamentalist...

are you getting it yet????

you are a waste of my time.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:13 AM

Thank you once more sciencegeek (Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:59 AM) for another contribution that has got S.F.A. to do with the subject being discussed - if one thing has been demonstrated you are at least consistent.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:10 AM

What's the matter Christmas you seem to stuttering or frothing a great deal today?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:05 AM

" biggest load of twaddle I have ever read in my life - always somebody else's fault isn't it - how convenient"
Banks of Denial again -
]You have had the facts on immagration
You have had the facts on Britain's solution
You have had the facts on the conditions on the coffin ships
You have had a summing up of post famine history
Denial doesn't hack it
Your proof?
Won't hold my breath
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:05 AM

" biggest load of twaddle I have ever read in my life - always somebody else's fault isn't it - how convenient"
Banks of Denial again -
]You have had the facts on immagration
You have had the facts on Britain's solution
You have had the facts on the conditions on the coffin ships
You have had a summing up of post famine history
Denial doesn't hack it
Your proof?
Won't hold my breath
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:59 AM

it is always amazing and sad to see how far people will go in their denial of history...

like the guy who stood up in a session during the 2013 Republican convention ( please bear in mind that the Republican Party was the party of abolitionists and the session was presided by a black Republican on the issue of how to attract more American Blacks into the Republican Party) and asserted that it was absurd for American Blacks to be upset about the issue of slavery... they had it pretty good back then... free food and lodging. WTF?????

or those who insist that the Holocaust never happened...

I suspect that these people have such delicate egos that they must take their feelings of self worth from external sources, rather than being secure in their own value. They take their identity and self worth from the group they identify with... I'm American... white... black ... Christian... Muslim... the list goes on. They then perceive any less than glowing approval of that group as a direct attack upon themselves... how else to explain how personally they react to what I perceive as fairly neutral comments.

Facts are facts... take them and learn from them. Try to avoid repeating past mistakes... which you can't do if you can't acknowledge that mistakes were made.

Some useful links were posted and most of the posters have been reasonable, so there has been some value to this thread... but arguing with the wall is not very productive and has only served to demonstrate the lengths to which some will go to avoid altering their mindset.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:55 AM

"By 1850, the Irish made up a quarter of the population in Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Buffalo, and Baltimore."

And??

"Ellis Island is just part of the long history of immigrants arriving in NYC... a fact that you seem bound & determined to contest. In your view... they obviously landed in Quebec and then travelled on until they reached New York. "

Not one single Irishman, woman or child who fled the famine between 1845 and 1851 landed at Ellis Island – True?

"Ah but somehow it is perfectly rational and reasonable in your view for you to cite two examples to argue that 75% of those who made the crossing died."

Well... since I DID NOT make that argument... those are your words, not mine... I only have to point out that the irrationality come from you.

Please correct me if I am in error here but isn't the following yours:
"The Virginius from Liverpool, with 496 passengers, had lost 158 by death, nearly one third of the whole, and she had 180 sick; above one half of the whole will never see their home in the New World."

The example I used is based a friend's family history... they waited weeks for the ship their relatives were on to arrive in New York. It was never heard from again."

Now that is two ships – in one only half the people arrive and in the other nobody survives – expressed in very basic terms that is a 75% loss rate isn't it?

As for the rest I couldn't give a toss about Ellis Island it has got about as much to do with the emigration of the Irish and Scots from Great Britain in the period under discussion as London Heathrow Airport has.

"From the very beginning of the mass migration that spanned the years (roughly) 1880 to 1924,

And the relevance of that fact to the period 1845 to 1851 is??

The "Irishmen" who worked on the Erie Canal were Scots Irish (about 5,000 of them) and their presence had nothing whatsoever to do with fleeing anything let alone a famine seeing as how the work was carried out long before the blight struck in Ireland (1817 to 1825) – they saw it as an opportunity as at the time there were very few civil engineers in the USA.

Many of those same workers moved on in 1825 to build the Ohio & Erie Canal (1825 to 1832) so once again what relevance this has to the subject under discussion mystifies me.

America was indeed settled by immigrants... and the bulk of Irish immigration into the USA during the period 1845 to 1851 came via Canada.

Oh Christmas your post of 21 Mar 14 - 08:53 AM - biggest load of twaddle I have ever read in my life - always somebody else's fault isn't it - how convenient

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:29 AM

"You might have read Christmas"
Now you are adopting a hit-and run line
-answer the points that have been made.
As far as thge coffin sheps are concerned -how many survived in no way contrqadicts the fact that they were shipped like cattele, wjhhich was my point
Some figures
"By the end of 1847, the awful toll could be calculated from the 200 immigrations ships that had made the crossing. Of 98,105 passengers (of whom 60,000 were Irish), 5293 died at sea, 8072 died at Grosse Isle and Quebec, 7,000 in and above Montreal. In total, then, at least 20,365 people perished (the numbers of those that died further along in their journey from illnesses contracted on the coffin ships cannot be ascertained) ? one-third of each vessel's passenger list. "
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:25 AM

For T-Bird's benefit, one site of many. I can't be arsed to make clickies.


http://www.moytura.com/grosse-ile.htm

http://www.pc.gc.ca/eng/lhn-nhs/qc/grosseile/index.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:06 AM

The English and Scottish rural populations were displaced too.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:02 AM

You might have read Christmas, but your only problem is that you don't understand what it is you are reading. Example - passenger accommodation on merchant ships of the time.

How many thousands arrived in Canada and America? That's the proof that the vast majority survived the crossing. But that was not the inference given in the article was it?

That between 1851 and 1975 some 4.7 million Irish citizens emigrated to America, doesn't surprise me for a second, those who went prospered and kin left behind in Ireland moved to share their prosperity. Nothing to do with Britain's legacy - more like a matter of personal choice - True? If you dispute that I would like to see your evidence substantiating the charge that they were driven out by the big bad British

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:53 AM

In detail - for those who have trouble with paragraphs with more than two sentences.
The evictions (yet to be responded to) continued to the end of the 19th century, leading to a devastated rural economy Nothing was done By Britain to relive that devastation.
The result was land wars and political unrest - Britain total expenditure was policing that unrest.
Enforced emigration led to a permanent drain of manpower.
More political unrest at the beginning of the 20th century until finally a settlement was brought about.
New Ireland immediately inherited a civil war caused by an enforced agreement, a partitioned Ireland and permanent sectarian conflict in the most arable part of the Island.
The inherited Empire economy had established emigration as a major feature of Irish life.
Despite blips in the economy, that remains the case (not helped, of course, by open, bloody warfare caused by a divided Ireland.
As I said - right up to the present day - not centuries ago.
This pattern has been repeated throughout the colonial world, but not to the same extent as in Ireland
As I said to your friend - go buy a book and stop making things up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:49 AM

if you were half as good at deduction as you are at fabrication & leaping to conclusion, you might actually post something useful... but instead we get more of your BS

By 1850, the Irish made up a quarter of the population in Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Buffalo, and Baltimore.

Ellis Island is just part of the long history of immigrants arriving in NYC... a fact that you seem bound & determined to contest. In your view... they obviously landed in Quebec and then travelled on until they reached New York.

"Ah but somehow it is perfectly rational and reasonable in your view for you to cite two examples to argue that 75% of those who made the crossing died."

Well... since I DID NOT make that argument... those are your words, not mine... I only have to point out that the irrationality come from you.

I gave two links to a educational website that includes first hand reports and caveats when there is uncertainty about accuracy of a source. How you choose to contrue or miscontrue them is on you.

And after critizing my reference to Ellis Island, you then use the criteria from decades after the famine to justify why they couldn't have come thruough NY. The following is the Ellis Island Foundation   http://www.ellisisland.org/genealogy/ellis_island_history.asp

From the very beginning of the mass migration that spanned the years (roughly) 1880 to 1924, an increasingly vociferous group of politicians and nativists demanded increased restrictions on immigration. Laws and regulations such as the Chinese Exclusion Act, the Alien Contract Labor Law and the institution of a literacy test barely stemmed this flood tide of new immigrants. Actually, the death knell for Ellis Island, as a major entry point for new immigrants, began to toll in 1921.

This from Hostra.edu:
Most of the canal diggers were Irish immigrants. One reason that Canvass White recruited the Irish to work on the canal because he was impressed with Irish canal maintenance engineer named J.J. McShane. Many Irish immigrants who were living in cities in New York State found it difficult to get work because they were looked down upon by native-born Americans. What other reasons might Canvass White been glad to hire the Irish to build the canal?

And this from the National Park Service

http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/travel/ohioeriecanal/ethnicity.htm

The Irish wave of immigration to the Cuyahoga Valley was a result of canal construction. After the Napoleonic Wars peace settlements of 1815, Irish emigration intensified. Before the potato famine of 1846, more than a million Irish resettled in a foreign country. Many Irish immigrants who landed in New York City were recruited to work on New York State's Erie Canal, completed in 1825. Upon completion of the Erie Canal, many of these Irish workers came to northeast Ohio to work and made up the bulk of the labor force on the northern segment of the Ohio and Erie Canal. In fact, the 1850 State of Ohio Census lists 22.4% of the state's immigrants as coming from Ireland. The Irish Town Bend Archeological District in Cleveland's Flats District reflects the settlement era working class status of this ethnic group. Many of the early German settlers in the southern region of the Canalway were motivated by religion. In 1772 Moravian missionary David Zeisberger led a group of 28 Delaware Indians to the Tuscarawas River Valley to establish Schoenbrunn – the first settlement in the Northwest Territory. This mission settlement grew to include 60 dwellings and more than 300 inhabitants. Today it is a reconstructed village that is managed by the Ohio Historical Society.

America was settled by immigrants... and every local and regional historical society has records supporting the facts of who they were and just where they went... untouched by those who would deny those facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:39 AM

like your fick friend (who is now apparently disagreeing you in spades.

If you mean me Jim, I remind you again that I am not disagreeing with anyone.
I merely stated that the version you posted at such great length was not the only version recognised by historians.

Why do you attack me for stating that demonstrable truth?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:17 AM

"An authority on merchant ships of the 19th Century now are we Christmas?"
No - but I've read several people who are - try it
Read what has been put up then dispute it - you appear to adopt the ignore and denyapproach to history like your fick friend (who is now apparently disagreeing you in spades.
Read what has been written about Emigration Terrytoon
Emigration became an answer to Ireland's problems in 1847 and remains a prominent feature of Irish life
That is the legacy left by Britain, along with sectarian conflict
You are now becoming a bit of a nuisance Keith - go and play in the garden
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:17 AM

"An authority on merchant ships of the 19th Century now are we Christmas?"
No - but I've read several people who are - try it
Read what has been put up then dispute it - you appear to adopt the ignore and denyapproach to history like your fick friend (who is now apparently disagreeing you in spades.
Read what has been written about Emigration Terrytoon
Emigration became an answer to Ireland's problems in 1847 and remains a prominent feature of Irish life
That is the legacy left by Britain, along with sectarian conflict
You are now becoming a bit of a nuisance Keith - go and play in the garden
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: kendall
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:03 AM

I doubt that anyone will care, but I've been on a long leave from Mudcat, and today I checked in out of boredom, and as usual, the name calling is still here.
It's one of the reasons I left.
All this vitriolic crap about something that took place 150 years ago is pretty petty compared to what is going on in OUR lifetime.
Adios

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:57 AM

"The effects of that blight lasted from 1845 to the present day"

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA - Utterly derisible

I shudder to thing of your views on the Great Flood, the Black Death, and the Mongol Hordes.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:53 AM

One of my own?
I have none, and I never claimed an "all historian" agreement.

I did point out that your vast acreages of posts were just one version of events.
I did point out that there was disagreement among historians, and that is the undeniable truth.
Kinealy has said that revisionists are the dominant view and have been for nearly ninety years.
That too is an undeniable truth, so what exactly are you accusing me of?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:50 AM

An authority on merchant ships of the 19th Century now are we Christmas?

"The transportation of Famine refugees was treated (as was emigration itself) as a business enterprise - a cheap, convenient way of ridding Ireland of its undesirables and unsustainables."

Really? Who was it treated as a business by? Perhaps by ship owners and those importing timber into Great Britain but not by the British Government.

"Some of the ships were custom built, most were hastily adapted from cargo vessels, grain, timber and metal carriers - some had previously been slave carriers - and the accommodation showed that."

I would say that most fell into the category of those hastily adapted as they could be likewise hastily re-adapted to carrying a cargo back from either Canada or America – Ship owners are funny that way they prefer not to have their ships running about the world's seas and oceans in ballast. If the ships were British flagged vessels then very few of them would have ever been slavers by the mid 1800s (Slave Trade Act 1807 prohibited British ships from carrying slaves).

"You only need step on board the Dunbrodie at New Ross or the Jeannie Johnson to confirm this - I think the Dunbrodie has only a couple of cabins - the rest is made up of open bunks closed off by curtains."

And that Christmas had been the bog standard way of creating cabins in Merchant vessels for hundreds of years. If you go onboard HMS Victory your notice will be drawn to the fact that ALL accommodation was temporary – even Lord Nelson's. Merchant vessels had to carry cargo and were designed for that purpose and warships were designed so that they could be fought by their crews and the only space allocated on their decks was for guns, pumps, capstans and rigging.

I can see from your quoted excerpt why you deem Edward Laxton's book a work of such excellence. It conforms to your prejudices.

One wonders why the good Mr. Laxton didn't fasten on the voyage of the Virginius related to us by sciencegeek – that made the voyage of the "Elizabeth and Sarah" look like a pleasure cruise.

"Five thousand ships sailed across the Atlantic with Irish emigrants in the six years of the Famine Emigration. They were diverse in size, safety and comfort, or the lack of it, and they varied in many other respects - in age and in the experience and quality of their crews, their speed on the voyage, provisions on board, and the fares they charged."

And what Mr Laxton fails to mention, rather conveniently for Christmas's point of view, is that most of those ships landed the vast majority of those who travelled in them safely on the shores of either Canada or America.

"Undoubtedly, many of the Famine ships would have carried African slaves in the early years of the 19th century. "

Not if they were British ships. I believe that even the Americans prohibited the building or fitting out of slavers at round about the same time (1807).

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:40 AM

For Keith - from Neilson - another "minority" view from one of your own historians
Jim Carroll
"The Famine was the greatest calamity in Irish history. People needlessly died due to cold-hearted indifference and the elevation of the market above the lives of people. Nowhere near enough aid was given as prejudice won out over compassion. Laissez faire turned into Leave them to die."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:35 AM

"our fiend's comments"
And before you try to capitalise on typos - that is exactly what they were
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:32 AM

"So WFT has Ellis Island which opened in 1892 got to do with anything."
The subject under discussion is The Irish potato blight
The effects of that blight lasted from 1845 to the present day - that's WTF our fiend's comments have to do with the discussion, but on the other hand - when in doubt, bluster and bully your way out.
You talk about whatever you wish Terrytoon - the rest of us will discuss the subject in hand
"Not to me."
nd you, not to anybody else other than yourself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:01 AM

"I'm not a fucking important historian. I am merely fucking important." - Musket

Not to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 06:57 AM

Hate to point this out to you but the period currently under discussion is that between 1845 and 1851!!! So WFT has Ellis Island which opened in 1892 got to do with anything. What your grand-sires did or did not do bears no relevance to the subject under discussion.

New York was NOT a major destination for immigrant ships in the period under discussion - if it had been then all those immigrants would have had to have proved the following before even embarking in Ireland or England:

- That they were in good health
- That they were not Chinese
- That they had goods or hard currency to the value of £20
- That they would not be a financial burden to the port or community they landed in.

It was because of those criteria that the vast majority of Irish emigrants who crossed the Atlantic to escape the famine sailed to ports in Canada where none of the above applied. It was then extremely easy for them to cross the land border from Canada into the USA as again none of the above conditions applied.

"I fear that you are deluded if you think that citing a single case where there was no loss of life negates the fact that many ships carrying Irish immigrants suffered high mortality... apples and oranges once again..."

Ah but somehow it is perfectly rational and reasonable in your view for you to cite two examples to argue that 75% of those who made the crossing died. The truth of the matter is - Did people die whilst on passage - YES they did - Did they die in vast numbers? - No they did not when compared to the number that landed and went on to settle in both Canada and the United States of America. Did the British Government deliberately and with intent put those people on ships to die in droves? No they did not, they did not put anybody on ships period - that was the personal decision of the individual. What ship they boarded and what destination they selected were entirely up to the people wishing to emigrate themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 06:33 AM

Anybody interested in the details of the migrations really should get hold of Terry Coleman's seminal work on the subject 'Passage to America' - he's done as excellent study of the subject as his did on the Navvies - indispensable.
As excellent as Mrs Woodham Smith's book is, it if far too thinly spread to be relied on for detail.
Keith has told us she is a "revisionist" so nothing she wrote can be trusted anyway - and he should know!!
A quote from Coleman's book from a contemporary source:
"Before the emigrant has been a week at sea he is an altered man. How can it be otherwise? Hundreds of poor people, men, women, and children, of all ages, from the drivelling idiot of ninety to the babe just born, huddled together without light, without air. wallowing in filth and breathing a fetid atmosphere, sick in body, dispirited in heart, the fevered patients lying between the sound, in sleeping places so narrow as almost to deny them the power of indulging, by a change of position, the natural restlessness of the disease; by their agonized ravings disturbing those around, and predisposing them, through the effects of the imagination, to imbibe the contagion; living without food or medicine, except as administered by the hand of casual charity,dying without the voice of spiritual consolation, and buried in the deep without the rites of the church."
Coleman devotes an entire chapter to the brutal treatment meted out by the ships crews to Emigrants.

"That is the truth and you can not deny it."
You have never read a single book by a single historian so you cannot possibly know what any of their opinions are - you cannot deny that
I can deny what I choose and you would have no grounds for contradiction other than your pre-conceived bigotry.
Interesting that Kinealy has now been relegated to a "minority" rather than in the hallowed ranks of your "all historians" though - amazing what the presentation of a few facts can do.
Go read a book
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:42 AM

You have no knowledge which qualifies you to talk about historians

The only knowledge I claim is that many historians do not support the version of events you have posted at enormous length.
That is the truth and you can not deny it.

Kinealy is not one of those but she concedes she is in a minority.
That is the truth and you can not deny it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:41 AM

I'm not a fucking important historian. I am merely fucking important.

Do keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:20 AM

oh... maybe I should mention that both my great grandfather and my grandfather had their captains papers...

Jesse Williams skippered small coastal vessels along the eastern seaboard. My grandfather, George, was an able bodied seaman on coastal steamers, but after his third shipwreck worked the Steel Pier in Atlantic City to raise enough money to buy his own boat... which he ran for almost 40 years out of Cape May NJ... taking out day fishing parties. One of the first to do so... and not bad for a guy who lost his right arm when he was a kid.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:05 AM

"since New York was one of the major destinations for immigrant ships"

Another dearly clung to MYTH"

what the heck is wrong with you???? once again, you have altered what I said... "since New York was one of the major destinations for immigrant ships, the Irish famine victims among them, I live in a state with a fairly large Irish population." and then proceed to argue with what I supposedly said. I also went to state that there had been more than one influx of Irish refugees.

and have you never heard of Ellis Island? I give you a quote from our National Park site...

Ellis Island opened in 1892 as a federal immigration station, a purpose it served for more than 60 years (it closed in 1954). Millions of newly arrived immigrants passed through the station during that time–in fact, it has been estimated that close to 40 percent of all current U.S. citizens can trace at least one of their ancestors to Ellis Island.

There is an online list of names of those who passed through the station... and that is only since 1892... ships have been bringing settlers to New York since it was under Dutch control in the 1600's
If that isn't a major port... what is? New York City is noted for it's ethnic neighborhoods... the result of the many varied immigrant groups that landed in NY and never left.

I fear that you are deluded if you think that citing a single case where there was no loss of life negates the fact that many ships carrying Irish immigrants suffered high mortality... apples and oranges once again...

and if you think I have no idea what happened to the ship that was lost... well, you are just demonstrating what a pompous ass you must be.

kindly remove your head from your anal sphincter... it will give you a clearer view.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:00 AM

The transportation of Famine refugees was treated (as was emigration itself) as a business enterprise - a cheap, convenient way of ridding Ireland of its undesirables and unsustainables.
Some of the ships were custom built, most were hastily adapted from cargo vessels, grain, timber and metal carriers - some had previously been slave carriers - and the accommodation showed that.
You only need step on board the Dunbrodie at New Ross or the Jeannie Johnson to confirm this - I think the Dunbrodie has only a couple of cabins - the rest is made up of open bunks closed off by curtains.
This from the excellent 'The Famine Ships' by Edward Laxton (1996)

"For ship owners, captains, crews and agents, this sudden increase in the passenger trade all the year round, was very welcome. Whereas in previous years they had operated a lucrative three-sided business - timber, iron, tools, salt and varied cargo down to West Africa; slaves out to America; cotton, tobacco, wheat and provisions back to Europe -outward-bound passages had been losing money. The Na¬poleonic Wars had ended around the turn of the century, completely upsetting the balance of trade in Europe. In particular, the price of timber had soared five-fold: the forests of Canada had more than enough wood to satisfy demand in Europe, and it was cheaper to buy there and ship it home. It was cheaper still if cargo could be found for the westward crossings and once again the human cargo, emi¬grants instead of slaves, provided the answer. Within a year or two it would provide more revenue than Canadian timber sailing eastwards.
Five thousand ships sailed across the Atlantic with Irish emigrants in the six years of the Famine Emigration. They were diverse in size, safety and comfort, or the lack of it, and they varied in many other respects - in age and in the experience and quality of their crews, their speed on the voyage, provisions on board, and the fares they charged.
American packet ships of more than 1,000 tons, with triple-decks were built in the late 1840s specifically for the emigrant trade. They would carry more than 400 passengers, some in private cabins. But by no means all the ships were custom-built. When the British Queen first put to sea in 1785 she needed several major repairs before she could carry passengers on regular voyages from Liverpool to New York. And when the Elizabeth and Sarah achieved infamy in the fever year of 1847, she had been at sea for 83 years.
Undoubtedly, many of the Famine ships would have carried African slaves in the early years of the 19th cen¬tury. The European slave traders finally ended their activities barely a dozen years before the onset of the Famine and the Arab slavers continued to ply well into the 1860s.
There were tiny vessels like The Hannah with a crew of six and measuring only 59 feet - about the same length as four family cars parked bumper-to-bumper. She was converted from a coaster by the addition of a third mast to enable her to go into deeper waters, and sailed to New York five times, from Dublin, Cork and Limerick, with a complement of only 50 or 60 passengers crammed below in a single hold.
These Irish men and women were not always welcome on arrival in their new homeland, for this desperate migration represented cheap labour, a threat to the established Amer¬ican workforce. But they dug canals, built roads and laid railways, they became seamstresses and servants.
The alternative was to stay at home and starve. A meal, a job, a place to rest, a chance to survive was all the Famine emigrants asked. They left Ireland by sailing ship every day, summer and winter, for six years while the Famine lasted, to make the 3,000 mile journey across the Atlantic Ocean."

"When I talk of historians"
You have no knowledge which qualifies you to talk about historians - you have never read one of their books - you've already told us that.
Between the pair of you, your combined knowledge is representative of 'The Bernard Manning School of Celtic Studies' and apparently coming from the same place.
Historians have never been in doubt as to what caused the catastrophe rising from the Blight - the policy of the Russell Government as interpreted by Trevelyan
As Kinealy points out, for various revisionist reasons that have never discussed who was to blame in detail - she and her fellow historians are now doing so.
The bad news is that you are going to have to actually read what they have to say rather than carefully select out-of-context and distorted snippets to back up a long-held prejudice.
That's what knowledge is all about.
In the meantime, your pompous pronouncements are of little more than entertainment value.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 04:47 AM

Do not sell yourself short Musket.
Not just a historian, but a fucking important historian!
Right?
And obviously you know much more about History than those mere professional and academic historians.
"Those historians should know better" as you are want to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 04:19 AM

The Westminster government of the day and their reaction to the famine was debated in a training course I attended in safeguarding children and vulnerable adults a few years ago.

Basically, on the premise that the government felt they couldn't interfere with market forces, or Adam Smith philosophy as it was, we were asked to debate whether their reaction would constitute abuse. The answer the guy was looking for was yes.

Abuse by neglect.

By pressing "submit message " and having my post analysed by Keith, that makes me a historian. I might put it on my cv. Beer doesn't buy itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 03:31 AM

Very good post mg probably the best summation in the entire thread.

"since New York was one of the major destinations for immigrant ships"

Another dearly clung to MYTH - I would refer you to Cecile Woodham-Smith's definitive work on "The Great Hunger" in which she explains the criteria required for those wishing to take direct passage to the ports on the eastern seaboard of the United States of America as opposed to those sailing to Canada. Greatest point of entry into the United States of America during the period we are discussing was Chicago, those people having landed in Canada, travelled up the St. Lawrence and over the Great Lakes.

Previously sciencegeek you mentioned two "Coffin Ships", one which sailed to Canada and the other that sailed to New York:

" "The Virginius from Liverpool, with 496 passengers, had lost 158 by death, nearly one third of the whole, and she had 180 sick; above one half of the whole will never see their home in the New World."

The example I used is based a friend's family history... they waited weeks for the ship their relatives were on to arrive in New York. It was never heard from again."

Now then in all honesty with 20 x 20 hindsight I can tell you which ship I would have preferred to have sailed in.

On the "Virginius" any idea of how many of those passengers who boarded the ship brought the sickness with them? Of the second if the ship was on direct passage to New York it would not have been permitted to enter port with sickness onboard, it would have been compelled to remain offshore, or it could divert to Canada, which most of the ships caught in this predicament did - "Give me your sick and needy indeed", fine words pity nobody in the US actually at the time lived up to them - Canada to her credit did. The other more obvious reason as to why the ship was "never heard of again" was that she foundered - I think sciencegeek you would be amazed at the number of sailing ships that did do just that, the percentage was staggering (Something like between 20% to 30% - in the pre-Plimsoll Line days two routes with the worst reputation were Cape Horn of course and the North Atlantic run, there was a very good reason for there being a specific load line for Winter North Atlantic)

Now I will give you the name of another of your "Coffin Ships" - "The three masted Barque the "Jeannie Johnstone", 154 ft long, built in 1848 and owned by two Merchants from Tralee. Between 1848 and 1855 she made 16 voyages carrying emigrants to Canada and to America - the numbers carried depended on her destination varying between 193 and 254 - in all that time not one single passenger died. She was a trading vessel taking people to the new world and bringing timber back, so vessel turn round time was important so the Jeannie Johnstone carried a doctor, as did other "Coffin Ships". Jeannie Johnstone was lost crossing the Atlantic with a load of timber in 1858, she became waterlogged and her crew climbed and clung to the rigging as their ship slowly sank beneath them - the crew were rescued by a Dutch ship - Jeannie Johnstone maintained her perfect safety record right to the end" A replica of the ship was built and launched on the 6th May 2000, today it is moored on the River Liffey in Dublin.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 02:10 AM

Keith. I have decided to call myself a historian.
Now address my point above please.

When I talk of historians, I mean people whose profession has been the study of the period.
You can call yourself anything you like, and you do, but it does not make it true.

What is true is that many historians find there is no case for blame over this catastrophe.
What is also true is that their's is the dominant view and has been for a very long time.
Many people have a vested interest in keeping hate alive, and are prepared to use false History to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 02:51 PM

very interesting points raised, Jim

since New York was one of the major destinations for immigrant ships, the Irish famine victims among them, I live in a state with a fairly large Irish population. I would like to point out also that the middle 19th century was the second wave from Ireland... 1799 saw quite a few who came over for "health reasons"... it being very unhealthy to stay after the failed rebellion. My father-in-law's family are descended from one such fellow who settled in Lake Placid.

And we live within 50 miles of the Erie Canal... renowned for the large Irish workforce involved in its construction. Many of the Irish descendants make at least one trip to Ireland in their lifetimes. And not a few of my folk music friends are Irish or Anglo-Irish that have become naturalized citizens, as well as those from England and Scotland. I have to say.. they all get along far better than some of us here on Mudcat.

In America, two of our early presidents were also deeply committed to improvements to agriculture and that legacy had a lasting effect on our country. That same period in time saw many of the arguably brightest & best, potentially natural leaders in Ireland to be lost - either executed, deported or fled. I have to ponder an alternate reality where these people were able to stay in Ireland and how they would have responded to the challenge of the blight...

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:49 PM

One of the problems in discussing the Famine is that unless you are Irish and/or live in Ireland, you are not talking about history - something that happened a century and a half or so ago - how the famine was handled changed Ireland socially and culturally.
I have lived here for fifteen years and have collected songs and social history in this area for 40 years.
I cannot think of a single family that has net been effected by emigration.
I sat in a music session last night and realised that there was not one person in the pub who had not worked abroad at one time or another.
I've just annotated our collection of 400+ songs, a large percentage of them locally made emigration songs, not harking back to the Famine, but reflecting the period from 1850 to the present day. New songs are still being composed; a Country and Western singer in Connemara is composing emigration songs in Irish to reflect was is happening there today "whining dirges, no doubt!.
Because of the way the Famine was mishandled (some believe deliberately) Ireland was never able to recover it (if this is true, think of the consequences if Ireland had been forced to participate in the W.W.1, obscenity, as was intended).
Nobody is claiming that all this is entirely the fault of Britain; Irish political incompetence and corruption added to an already unsolvable problem.
Britain's two great legacies to Ireland were Immigration and sectarian conflict - the Celtic Tiger was a bit of a miracle really, but the bankers and politicians managed to kick that one to death fairly efficiently.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: mg
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:37 PM

I do not believe there was a fiendish plot to perpetuate the famine and cleanse the Irish. I think there was a combination of a natural disaster, overpopulation, overdependence (by fiat, not by choice of Irish) on one crop, poor logistics, delayed understanding of the extent of the problem, religious barriers, people taking advantage of religious considerations, dire threats to the survival of the landlords too, weather that made it all worse, total lack of infrastructure in places, etc.....I think that some people..English people..tried very hard to set some things in motion. ONe was to use money that had been reserved for draining land to put people to work doing something that would lead to actual food rather than building roads to nowhere and disrupting present roads. There was a big plan to send a huge number of people to Canada that was considered. Some landlords did all that they could; some were horrible; some had no resources themselves. Some landlords were called to Parliament to explain their actions during the famine.

There could very well be two definitions of coffin ships but the Irish call them by that name referring to the death that took place on them during emigration...it is a very common name that everyone almost of Irish descent knows.

Irish were luckier in some respects than the Ukrainian sufferers..at least the landlords wanted them gone. The serfs of Ukraine were kept there to starve..and if you want to see what your Irish ancestors probably looked like, you can google pictures and videos and interviews of still living survivors of the Ukrainian famine..hodolomor???

It is a complex mess that has been and probably will be repeated throughout the world. To me a sustainable population, with sustainable agriculture, combined with relief efforts combined with the natural efficiency of free markets and charity are things that need to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 11:15 AM

we have a census each decade, and even today must acknowledge that they are not 100 percent accurate.

HOWEVER... we use the data to establish the number of elected representatives to be assigned to each state or commonwealth and for guidance in deployment of federal aid.

IT IS NOT USED TO SUPPORT STATEMENTS REGARDING DEATH OR MIGRATION RATES OR TOTAL NUMBERS!

And THAT is my objection to your statement... "That marks a drop in population of 1.3 million and that number is not solely down to the decrease due to the famine it also includes those who died of natural causes unconnected to the famine - True?" because you are using it in the context of defending your figure for how many Irish died during the Potato Famine.


Once again ... comparing apples to oranges as if there is any meaning to be found. So keep your snark to yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 11:05 AM

right now it includes the Tea Party and the Conservative Right... to be replaced by others in the future.

And the sooner the better. Ditto the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:46 AM

Ah sciencegeek I didn't know that tin the USA you have a full census every year. In the UK we run them every ten years, and I hate to be so simplistic but if at one census the the population is detailed as being X and then ten years later the census gives the figure a X-Y then I know that over the course of that decade the population has dropped, and it gives me the number by which it has dropped.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:19 AM

"Are you completely mad? To undertake all that work so that people could stay where they were simply to suffer inevitable food shortages a few more years down the line? Who would provide the workforce let alone the skilled labour required? Idiotic."

No more idotic than building the "famine walls"... many still standing today.

"At the same time a board of works would embark on a massive new road construction programme to provide employment for the rural poor - this eventually culminated in the much despised 'famine walls' built up throughout the country, but particularly in the hills and mountains of the west of Ireland, where walls were built solely to provide work to peasants in return for food. More often than not these stone walls provided no economic or infrastructural benefit, but were built anyway."

Is this some form of "My country right or wrong." issue? You can be proud of your nation and still acknowledge the fact that nations are run by people... and not always nice or good ones at that.

I can be proud of the good things done by America and still accept the fact that slavery existed, the native population was exploited and exterminated in many cases and that we have had robber barons and yellow journalists creating war fever. The list goes on... right now it includes the Tea Party and the Conservative Right... to be replaced by others in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 09:40 AM

"I am the only one here arguing the case that it wasn't some fiendish and deliberate plot. I am arguing the case that it was not a black and white issue. I am arguing the case that mistakes were made."

I agree only to the fact that you are arguing... with me and everyone else.

I make a statement to the effect that no one in that period was equipped to deal with the results caused by the potato blight and that logistics can make or break any relief plan... and you attack me for "ignoring" logistically problems???? You come across as a pompus jackass more in love with their own voice than interested in listening to others... or making a positive contribution to a discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 09:28 AM

here are some links to a more scholarly examination of the Irish Famine than what is currently occupying this thread.

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/sadlier/irish/rwhyte.htm

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/sadlier/irish/Famine.htm

"Census figures put the population of Ireland in 1841 at 8.2 million. The Census for 1851 tallied 6.9 million. That marks a drop in population of 1.3 million and that number is not solely down to the decrease due to the famine it also includes those who died of natural causes unconnected to the famine - True?"

oh... and comparing the census data from 1841 to 1851 is as meaningful as the answer 42 in the Hitchhiker's Guide.

Two data points without context is absurd... and no population biologist would ignore reproductive rates along with migration (both in and out) and mortality when positing their conclusions. Because your statement is only valid if in that entire decade no children were born or died... not the way I would bet.

Populations are not static... that is why you need to apply statistical tools with well defined assumptions... not "simple arithmatic". That only is valid to support the statement that the change in population is from this to that... and useless to expalin the "why" for the change.   

The 1841 figure includes all those born and still alive at the time of the census taking. And children born subsequently are only tallied if still alive and living in the census area. You need to know the reproductive rate of the studied population to infer approximate numbers... or hope that the birth/baptismal and death/burial records of that period exist and are reasonably accurate... to support a statement regarding just how many individuals perished or migrated.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 07:22 AM

once again, words have been put into my mouth....

and apples have been compared to oranges to reach the "obvious" conclusion that their position is "right" and all others "wrong".

A century before the Potato Blight, Jonathan Swift felt compelled to write "A Modest Proposal". A response to prevailing attitudes about Ireland and the Irish poor. Many made poor by discriminatory laws imposed by a "foreign" government. This is the historical background that laid the groundwork upon which later events took place.

I find that the "obvious solution" championed by Teribus to be remarkably similar to that used in America. Take away the land from the current inhabitants and then when they persist in trying to retain their way of life, find a way to remove them completely... or at least to somewhere that you have no use for.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 06:34 AM

"you must move the people to where you can get relief to them, if they will not move voluntarily then they must be induced to move or they will surely die."
Which is pretty much the exact opposite of what they did in Ireland - they drove them out and left them to fend for themselves in hostile environments
Presenting British (in)action as altruism is as stupid as it gets.
It's not even as if those left behind were assisted in any way - they were left to the mercies of 'the free market' - exploiting predatory merchants and evicting landlords.
It is difficult to find anything other than regional figures of evictions but when a police estimate calculated that 250,000 people had been evicted between 1849 and 1854 - they had started several years ealier than that and continued to the end of the century.
A summing up of the attitude towards tenants who were unable to pay their rents was summed up fairly neatly in this:
"West Clare was one of the worst areas for evictions, where landlords turned thousands of families out and demolished their derisory cabins. Captain Kennedy in April 1848 estimated that 1,000 houses, with an average of six people to each, had been levelled since November. The Mahon family, Strokestown House alone in 1847 evicted 3,000 people, and according to John Gibney were still able to dine on lobster soup.
After Clare, the worst area for evictions was County Mayo, accounting for 10% of all evictions between 1849 and 1854. The Earl of Lucan, who owned over 60,000 acres (240 km2) was among the worst evicting landlords. He was quoted as saying 'he would not breed paupers to pay priests'. Having turned out in the parish of Ballinrobe over 2,000 tenants alone, the cleared land he then used as grazing farms. In 1848, the Marquis of Sligo owed £1,650 to Westport Union; he was also an evicting landlord, though he claimed to be selective, saying he was only getting rid of the idle and dishonest. Altogether, he cleared about 25% of his tenants."
Repatriation - rebuilding, famine relief.
Sure it was!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 05:42 AM

Census figures put the population of Ireland in 1841 at 8.2 million. The Census for 1851 tallied 6.9 million. That marks a drop in population of 1.3 million and that number is not solely down to the decrease due to the famine it also includes those who died of natural causes unconnected to the famine - True?

Nowhere even remotely close to 1 million died - we do know with a fair degree of certainty that approximately 1 million people did emigrate

There might have been people not included in the censuses but it would be highly unlikely to extend to as much as 12.5% of the total population - that sort of number would be noticeable in a predominantly rural community, they have to have shelter, they have to burn cooking fires and they have to eat. The contention that a hitherto unheard of and unknown mass of 1 million Irishmen, women and children crept out of the woodwork to die just to stick it to the Brits is downright laughable. If you want to introduce the factor of "woolly" numbers then do so accepting the fact that it must be recognised that those inaccuracies work both ways.

Of course sciencegeek swedes were known about in the late 1600s and early 1700s "they were described in France" question is pal, who was actually cultivating them as a crop? - In the UK we know with absolute certainty that that didn't happen until the early 1900s - again True? So what on earth makes you think that, all of a sudden, growing swedes would immediately spring to mind as a solution to a potato blight that struck in the mid 1800s? Who would have come up with the idea? Who would have the necessary knowledge regarding this crop, who among the starving Irish would know what to do with it? Who would they have suggested it to? Who would have acted on it? Just how long would it have taken to mass the number of plants required (IF you could get them - Remember the blight hit Europe as well), ship them to Ireland, distribute them, then plant and grow them to the stage where they would have been of any benefit.

I am sorry once more you seem to blithely skate over the detail, ignore all the very real problems to offer up a totally unworkable solution then castigate the authorities for not following that through - Just try getting your head round the fact that in Ireland in the 1840s they couldn't even harvest and transport crops grown in Ireland to the west of their own country. They had a hard enough time transporting and distributing ground corn to centres of population. That was the reality that the authorities had to deal with and nobody anywhere in the world had ever had to deal with something on this scale before - personally I believe that they deserve being cut a bit of slack on that point.

" I have no idea where you got your fairy tale about "coffin ships", but the name came from the deplorable conditions that resulted in high mortality"

I am sorry to disappoint you but the term "Coffin Ship" although associated with the transport of emigrants from both Scotland and Ireland has got nothing whatsoever to do with "the deplorable conditions" of the passengers onboard. It is an insurance term meaning any ship that has been overinsured and is therefore worth more to its owners sunk than afloat.

"The REAL stumbling block is having people so wedded to defending their own positions that they blind themselves to alternatives. Can anyone acknowledge that this is not a black and white issue? That honest mistakes were made along with callus indifference on the part of others? This need to make ogres or saints and simplistic answers, when the reality is far more complex."

The only people wedded to defending their own positions are those who are stubbornly clinging to the myth that the Potato Famine in Ireland was all a deliberate plot engineered by Great Britain.

Example: "Britain THE WEALTHIEST NATION ON THE PLANET WITH INCREASING ADDITIONS TO ITS WEALTH AND POWER washed their hands of the Irish problem and ethically cleansed them out of Ireland."

I am sorry but that is complete and utter crap. It is complete and utter crap that does not even stand up to even the most cursory examination.

a) Great Britain was certainly ONE OF the wealthiest nations on the planet and in response to the situation in Ireland, Great Britain provided more in terms of aid and relief than every other source of aid donated combined by a factor of about three - the exact statistics are given in Cecile Woodham-Smith's book "The Great Hunger". Great Britain also received and absorbed the largest number of emigrants from Ireland.

b) By the mid 1800s the British Empire had started to go into decline and the Empire was actually costing Great Britain money according to historian and economist Niall Ferguson - so much for "INCREASING ADDITIONS TO ITS WEALTH AND POWER"

c) Had Great Britain really "washed their hands of the Irish problem" it would have been cheaper for them to simply sit back and do nothing, just as the American Irish did, just as the Roman Catholic Church did, just as the Irish land owners did.

I am the only one here arguing the case that it wasn't some fiendish and deliberate plot. I am arguing the case that it was not a black and white issue. I am arguing the case that mistakes were made. The only thing is neither yourself or the likes of GregF and Christmas Carroll can be arsed to actually debate - you merely attack. Take your viewpoint as an example. God knows how many times I have now asked you just how things could have been done to feed the people in situ, reform their farming practices so that the next famine would not just be a few more years down the line - So far you have refused point blank to address those questions offering up instead alternative solutions that would have been impossible to implement at the time - YOU then stubbornly defend those impracticable solutions.

So just one last time. I do not care what the food is, I do not give a toss what the relief is - it could be Chinese take away for all I care.

How do you transport it to the people in situ? Taking into account that you have:
- No ports to ship in whatever it is that is required
- No storage facilities to hold these supplies
- No distribution network
- No roads suitable for large wagons, very few large wagons
- No fodder for horses, very few horses for that matter

While you are sorting all this out people are malnourished so they cannot work and people are dying. In this situation there is only ONE THING you can do that will be of immediate effect - you must move the people to where you can get relief to them, if they will not move voluntarily then they must be induced to move or they will surely die.

My only experience of anything like this was in 1970 the Bhola Cyclone that swept up the Bay of Bengal and struck East Pakistan killing 500,000 people - According to the New York Times "It remains the deadliest tropical cyclone ever recorded, and one of the deadliest natural disasters in modern times.". The cyclone struck on the 12th November. Aid and relief efforts were drastically hindered by the situation between India and Pakistan - it took some 10 days before real intervention began, the Royal Navy sent the Amphibious Assault Ship HMS Intrepid and the Heavy Repair Ship HMS Triumph (ex-Fleet Aircraft Carrier). We arrived 12 days after the cyclone had struck, but we had flown advanced parties ahead to do the recces for us. We had 650 men, we had helicopters and we had landing craft to distribute food and materials, to land portable generators and to build shelters. In HMS Triumph we had our own fabrication facility that could damn near make anything mechanical or electrical we required, we had technicians who could be flown ashore to repair anything that required repair. The survivors we found were in a state of depression and total apathy, they had to be bullied into movement and action just in order to save themselves, otherwise they would have just squatted where they were until they died. Initially they could not be bothered to move a couple of hundred yards to where food and shelter were. Once they knew that there was food and shelter available the men could then be organised into teams to assist in the search and rescue, relief operations and clear up (Bodies being the greatest risk and health hazard - but once again the only option was to move the people in order to save them. One of the Pakistani Naval Officers acting as our Liaison Officer commented as the effort wound down, "Until the next time" When asked about it he said that the people accepted the cyclones and tidal surges as a fact of life, they would gradually steal back to places that they knew full well were dangerous, because those places were easier to farm and to fish.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: mg
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 06:33 PM

you can't really separate the malnutrition and the disease...Irish, despite the no food but potato and no drink but water were remarkably healthy and strong, tis said. Starving people can not attend to the most basic sanitation for example. A disease that someone would shrug off in good health would kill a famished person.

And the whole census thing must be looked at. Lots and lots were undocumented in their own country. They came out of the woodwork under some circumstances. Do you think the outlaws in the Galtee ?? mountains were censized?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 03:04 PM

I find it "interesting" that my "Introducing rutabagas would have worked better in the early years of the blight... imho." got transmuted into importing rutabagas for food...   

Since it was recorded as being present in the royal gardens in England as early as 1669 and was described in France in 1700, it was an unexplored option for an alternative crop. It may lack the higher caloric value of potatoes, but is high in nutrition and easy to cultivate. And for your information, introducing a crop is done by providing seed or root stock/cuttings so that it can be cultivated in the area of interest.   

So your snarky response was to a statement fabricated in you own mind.... "Ah yes of course we should have imported rutabaga (swedes) for the starving Irish to feed on, now apart from the fact that they did not become common in mainland Britain until the 1900s I think might explain why this crop was not seized upon as a solution (It would have been 50 years too late) also you keep saying they could have used this or they could have used that but you keep dodging the point of how you actually get these items to where they were needed - hopefully at some juncture in this discussion you will get round to addressing this rather significant stumbling block."

The REAL stumbling block is having people so wedded to defending their own positions that they blind themselves to alternatives. Can anyone acknowledge that this is not a black and white issue? That honest mistakes were made along with callus indifference on the part of others? This need to make ogres or saints and simplistic answers, when the reality is far more complex.

Here on Mudcat we spar & trade snarky comments, along with some downright obnoxious remarks... better than using suicide bombers to make your point, but equally unproductive.

Here in the US, there are those regard the less fortunate as parasites ... our treatment of the native population was nothing to be proud of... but there are still those who think it was "noble".

Human nature is a combination of traits that can be very positive or very negative and it was human beings and their actions/inactions during the potato blight that is being "debated/argued over" in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 02:29 PM

And that's circa 1 million that died IN IRELAND- doesn't count those emigrants that tried to escape the Famine & died on ships or in other countries from famine-induced diseases & etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 02:15 PM

ONLY approximately 1 million Irish died during the famine.

Oh, well, that's all right then, innit, T-Bird?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 01:36 PM

oh... sorry - before some nit picker goes on about "not every Irishman was poor".. I will qualify that the Irish who suffered the worst because of the blight (you know them)... were the ones with limited options.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 01:20 PM

"human population exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet"

The current population is close to 8 billion, but that is not relavant to things that happened around 1850 when the world population was around 1.2 billion.

Agreed... but only to the extent that humans on the whole had options - if they weren't squimish about displacing other people or exploiting new habitats. I threw that in as an aside because the issue of more mouths to feed than food to feed them is not confined to history... it is an on-going fact... not some abstract concept to be ignored. However, the Irish were living on an island, not wealthy and not in a position to pack up and leave at the drop of a hat. Plus they, or anyone else for that matter, had no way of knowing that this blight would far more devastating than any previously encountered. Experience isn't always the best teacher... because there is always that new experience to be had.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 01:05 PM

pardon me... ONLY approximately 1 million Irish died during the famine. Obviously they missed the boat over to Liverpool... because England was waiting to welcome them with open arms....

And I have no idea where you got your fairy tale about "coffin ships", but the name came from the deplorable conditions that resulted in high mortality... "On August 4, 1847, The Toronto Globe reported on the arrival of emigrant ships: "The Virginius from Liverpool, with 496 passengers, had lost 158 by death, nearly one third of the whole, and she had 180 sick; above one half of the whole will never see their home in the New World."

The example I used is based a friend's family history... they waited weeks for the ship their relatives were on to arrive in New York. It was never heard from again.

I'm stealing this from NOVA... "the human population growth curve is currently following an exponential curve or a "J-shape". Common sense tells us that such growth cannot continue - otherwise within a few hundred years every square foot of the Earth's surface would be taken up by a human. Furthermore, experience with other species tells us that, ultimately, resource limitations and/or habitat degradation will force the human population curves to approach an upper limit or asymptote - the carrying capacity, often symbolized as " K" by ecologists. It is very natural to ask the linked questions - does humanity have a carrying capacity and, if so, what is it - and when will we reach or overshoot this limit?"

Good question... and if the world population doubles in a single generation, it's vulnerability to famine increases. Do the math... Malthus did.

Climate change and land use decisions may diminish the earth's carrying capacity even faster. The reason why food was exported from Ireland is partly because England's change from an agrarian to industrial was taking place at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 11:50 AM

"human population exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet"

The current population is close to 8 billion, but that is not relavant to things that happened around 1850 when the world population was around 1.2 billion.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 11:48 AM

Keith. I have decided to call myself a historian.

Now address my point above please.

After all, you love quoting historians and advocating their view, even with your convenient get out clause of saying you aren't saying it.

Not much point in saying it then, is there? Everybody else seems to want to debate. Do you know what debate means? Really? I'm asking it in a genuine attempt to find out. It would answer so many questions ..,,,

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 11:39 AM

Right for a start sciencegeek - millions of people did not starve to death in Ireland - so can we leave the inaccurate, hysterical, emotive, histrionics at the door.

Main causes for the drop in the population of Ireland between 1841 and 1851
1: Emigration largest number
2: Disease and illness
3: Malnutrition

Total number taking all three into account was 1.3 million according to census information. The ratios being something like 4:1:1

The vast majority of those who left took the short journey across the Irish Sea to England and Scotland and that is where they stayed. The myth that they all clung onto the hulls of "coffin" ships and drifted across to the USA and Canada is total bullshit - just like the millions in aid that was supposed to have been sent by the Americans to help out. The greatest charitable contribution sent from the USA came from American Plains Indians NOT the American Irish.

Ah yes of course we should have imported rutabaga (swedes) for the starving Irish to feed on, now apart from the fact that they did not become common in mainland Britain until the 1900s I think might explain why this crop was not seized upon as a solution (It would have been 50 years too late) also you keep saying they could have used this or they could have used that but you keep dodging the point of how you actually get these items to where they were needed - hopefully at some juncture in this discussion you will get round to addressing this rather significant stumbling block.

Ah so we are not all on the point of starvation then - thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 10:06 AM

"I was not aware that the current "human population exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet"."

neither are a goodly number of people who will not be very happy when it gets closer to home...

the critical word is "sustainable"... you might want to read up on population ecology. look closely at population doubling time and what can cause population crashes.

this was something I understood back in 1963 at the ripe out age of 12... my mistake was thinking that if a kid could figure it out, adults would be right on top of it.... sigh

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 09:44 AM

"Are you completely mad? To undertake all that work so that people could stay where they were simply to suffer inevitable food shortages a few more years down the line? Who would provide the workforce let alone the skilled labour required? Idiotic. To move people means that the only problems you have to solve is to feed and shelter them on their way. To supply them with food you have to go through all of the above bringing in more people to actually do the work adding to the problem.

A simple exercise for you sciencegeek - what would it require to move one fully loaded wagon of food 30 miles and bring it back over poorly surfaced roads - I think the answer will stagger you (By the way remember that if a horse just eats grass or hay you get no work out of it so remember to that you must also carry food for the horses)"

And if you can remember that far back, my statement was basically that logistics would make or break any plan... and 1840's western nations were not prepared to handle such a natural disaster.

I also never even implied that shipping food was a viable option... I did opine that introducing rutabagas to the area at the start of the blight would have had better results than what was actually done. My reason for that is that it is not in the nightshad family, so immune to the blight and could be grown along with cabbages - similiar growing needs- and was similiar enough to turnips to be a familiar crop.

And since I actually raise livestock, I am acutely aware of the cost of fodder and what it takes to transport it. And anyone interested in the logistics of transporting supplies using horse & mule transport, should read about the horse in the American Civil War. I think there is also a dvd out on the subject.

You also have avoided the fact that food products were exported from Ireland during the famine... one can not help but be struck by the irony. That alone supports my assertion that there were those whose motives were more in profit than humanitarian efforts.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 09:23 AM

"To which you came out with the statement - "Easier said than done... especially now with a human population that exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet.

First let us take your view that to move the people was "easier said than done". Well that is rather idiotic as that is exactly what did happen - IT WAS DONE."

So the MILLIONS of people who starved to death IN IRELAND did so because they refused to go???? Ships lay empty in the harbors waiting for them??? Give me a break.

And just where were they supposed to go??? America and Canada had problems absorbing the number of Irish that did make it to their shores. And ignores the numbers of would be immigrants that were lost at sea in the infamous coffin ships.

Pardon me, but it is your assumptions that I am finding idiotic.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 08:31 AM

" chronic food shortages and unemployment"
Which is more or less what happened to them in America - plus extreme open racist abuse and eventually being enlisted into a Civil war which led to the slaughter of many thousands of them - where the **** do you think they went - the Land of Milk and Honey - Britain THE WEALTHIEST NATION ON THE PLANET WHITH INCREASING ADDITIONS TO ITS WEALTH AND POWER washed their hands of the Irish problem and ethically cleansed them out of Ireland.
The alternative was to continue and develop Peel's efforts - they stated categorically that Britain's economical interests must come first
You and your racist buddies choose to ignore that statement
The fact that other God Botherers shared Trevelyan's view is totally immaterial - it was the British government's responsibility to deal with it Peel tried to, Russell decided to throw the Irish to the wolves.
The Irish were systematically and unnecessarily driven out out Ireland because it suited the Empire - that is the fact of the matter.
You and Dozy Danny really have blown it "maudlin, idiot Irish" and him back to his "cultural implanted" Irish schoolchildren
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 08:01 AM

"Take a look at the alternative are you honestly trying to tell me that it would have been easier to..."

"Yeah far "easier" to ship them off to America or allow them to starve - after all they were only a nations of indolent morons besotted with their "whining" patriotic songs - they deserved everything God bestowed on them (fascinating when the mask slips, isn't it?)." - your words Christmas - not mine

Well yes logically it is easier to move people from a place in which all they will ever be able to do is subsist and suffer, with ever increasing frequency, chronic food shortages and unemployment.

As to shipping them off to America? Another myth, the vast majority of those who emigrated from Ireland did not go to America they went to the British mainland, next most popular destination was Canada and thence to the USA. Very few sailed directly to the USA for reasons that Cecile Woodham-Smith explains very clearly.

I believe the whinging ballads written retrospectively came a lot later down the track.

As for them deserving "everything God bestowed on them" if you try to find out what the Roman Catholic Church did to help their parishioners you will discover that the view you express was widely held and believed by both the people themselves and the clergy. (In one case they regarded the blight as God's punishment for the college at Maynooth accepting grant money from the Government - Dr Paul Cullen, Rector of the Irish College in Rome. While in 1846 a Father Theobald Mathew, stated his opinion that the, "potato crop was no more than one wide waste of putrefying vegetation....due to Divine providence again pouring out upon us the vial of its wrath.")

This letter of Trevelyan's that you seem to like waving about like a flag yet seem unable to comprehend if indeed you have ever actually read it castigates the land owners, identifies the need to move people off the land so that agriculture can be reformed so that enough food can be grown and the population sustained.

Russell and the British Government did nothing!!! £9.5 million more than all other forms of aid received lumped together by quite a significant margin. That £9,500,000 would be the equivalent of £1,045,000,000 today, our last hand-out to the Irish Government amounted to £7,000,000,000 - you might knock it all you want, the one thing you cannot do is deny that it was ever given.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 07:18 AM

"Musket, I have no opinion"
Yu have no knowledge either - how could you have without having never read a book?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 05:40 AM

Musket, I have no opinion but I note that most historians do not apportion blame.

I know you that think you know more about History than historians, but I do not join in your self-adulation and aggrandisement.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 05:24 AM

"Take a look at the alternative are you honestly trying to tell me that it would have been easier to..."
Yeah far "easier" to ship them off to America or allow them to starve - after all they were only a nations of indolent morons besotted with their "whining" patriotic songs - they deserved everything God bestowed on them (fascinating when the mask slips, isn't it?).
Britain under Russell chose to do nothing because it suited the Empire to cull a troublesome neighbour - the weevils in the breadbasket.
Starvation, locked warehouses, exploiting merchants, mass evictions...
Not worth a mention.
Cristmas Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 05:20 AM

You wouldn't perchance be splitting hairs regarding the word culpable would you Keith?

It's just that it is beyond dispute that our forefathers were guilty of horrendous actions but under the law of the day, Parliament wouldn't be culpable.

Logic chopping. The last refuge of the terminally wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 05:01 AM

one undisputed result of those songs being that they perpetuate hatred.

As does the direction to Irish (and NY) schools to teach that Britain was culpable even though it can not be justified in the opinion of most historians.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 03:42 AM

OK then sciencegeek take the two sentences that you seem to have taken exception to:

1: "I would just love to hear what gains in political and economic capital for Britain came out of the "Great Famine" – Damn all as far as I can fathom."

It was the contention of one poster that Great Britain had made economic and political capital out of the famine. As yet I am waiting a response that provides substantive evidence that Great Britain benefited in any manner at all - we do know that the relief effort mounted by the British Government cost them £9.95 million pounds.


2: "It did I suppose leave us with a legacy of a seemingly interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads and a host of complete and utter myths and fairy stories that you appear to have fallen for hook line and sinker."

Depending on the perspective that statement is 100% correct - "Raised on songs and stories" - unfortunately all too true and most of them are wildly exaggerated I could make a list pointing out their historical inaccuracies but quite frankly I simply just cannot be bothered, one undisputed result of those songs being that they perpetuate hatred.


By all means take a look at and evaluate the options open to the "authorities" in 1845 - 1849 regarding the problem they faced:

"Problem lots of people in a confined and finite space are repeatedly suffering from food shortages and famines - The only solution is to get them to move, so as to prevent it happening again."

To which you came out with the statement - "Easier said than done... especially now with a human population that exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet.

First let us take your view that to move the people was "easier said than done". Well that is rather idiotic as that is exactly what did happen - IT WAS DONE.

Take a look at the alternative are you honestly trying to tell me that it would have been easier to:
a) Construct port facilities and dredge harbours
b) To build railroads
c) Build roads and bridges
d) Construct food storage and establish distribution networks

Are you completely mad? To undertake all that work so that people could stay where they were simply to suffer inevitable food shortages a few more years down the line? Who would provide the workforce let alone the skilled labour required? Idiotic. To move people means that the only problems you have to solve is to feed and shelter them on their way. To supply them with food you have to go through all of the above bringing in more people to actually do the work adding to the problem.

A simple exercise for you sciencegeek - what would it require to move one fully loaded wagon of food 30 miles and bring it back over poorly surfaced roads - I think the answer will stagger you (By the way remember that if a horse just eats grass or hay you get no work out of it so remember to that you must also carry food for the horses)

As for "especially now with a human population that exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet."

Your first two words render the rest irrelevant. I cannot understand how, or why you haven't picked up on it yet, but the NOW we are discussing are the years 1845 to 1851. But returning to your comment, I was not aware that the current "human population exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet".

"Logistics is the "devil in the details" that hinders or prevents the implementation of most "solutions".

Supports the points I have been attempting to make. The situation was unique and unparalleled in scale, there was nothing in place or worked out beforehand to cater with the situation as it developed. To put anything in place from scratch takes time, there is a learning curve and mistakes will definitely be made. Attempting to put forward the argument that things could be done as quickly in the 19th century as they can be in the 21st is ludicrous.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 04:27 PM

Christine Kinealy is a nationalist famine historian.
She attacks revisionists in her History Today essay that you copied.
She also explains the difference which you so struggle to understand.

You claim to be well read, but have you ever read a work by a revisionist who she is clear have the dominant position among historians?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 02:22 PM

"Only Nationalist historians Jim, who are a minority."
Go and play while the adults are talking Keith - how many times have you been told that Christine Kinealy isn't a nationalist
"Nobody is mocking their plight."
"interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads and a host of complete and utter myths and fairy stories that you appear to have fallen for hook line and sinker."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 12:45 PM

you have the statements of the historians

Only Nationalist historians Jim, who are a minority.

How is Kinealy my "star witness" except that she acknowledges that revisionist historians are the dominant view.
(Except on Mudcat obviously)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 12:42 PM

this is the line I was responding to... if not yours, my apologies...
"I would just love to hear what gains in political and economic capital for Britain came out of the "Great Famine" – Damn all as far as I can fathom. It did I suppose leave us with a legacy of a seemingly interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads and a host of complete and utter myths and fairy stories that you appear to have fallen for hook line and sinker."


regarding this"
Problem lots of people in a confined and finite space are repeatedly suffering from food shortages and famines - The only solution is to get them to move, so as to prevent it happening again."

Easier said than done... especially now with a human population that exceeds the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet.

Logistics is the "devil in the details" that hinders or prevents the implementation of most "solutions".   And since it is most unlikely that sex will become unpopular anytime soon, there is a critical need to reduce the population reproduction rate... the math is simple, but our ability to respond correctly is not looking good.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 12:08 PM

Sciencegeek, I was not the one promoting the myth that Britain gained politically and economically from the disaster, nor did I infer that if they did it was done deliberately.

Problem lots of people in a confined and finite space are repeatedly suffering from food shortages and famines - The only solution is to get them to move, so as to prevent it happening again.

Odd in all the critics castigation there is no mention of landlords who not only paid passage for those evicted tenants but also bought land for them in Canada and in the USA. No mention of troops being sent out to ensure that eviction notices were adhered to refusing to do so on arrival and who as complete units returned to their barracks having left all their provisions with the people they had been sent there to see evicted.

No criticism leveled at the utter lack of assistance given to their parishioners by the Catholic Church in Ireland.

"those people were victims of discrimination coupled with a natural disaster that no one of that era was equipped to handle."

Precisely right across the board.

"There is no call to mock their plight."

Nobody is mocking their plight.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 11:47 AM

Sorry sciencegeek
I left my posting on the back-boiler for too long before I sent i without checking if anybody had intervened with an intelligent comment -hence the cross-posting.- my sentiments exactly
These discussions certainly bring them scurrying out of the woodwork
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 11:33 AM

Utter gibberish - you have the facts - you have the statements of the historians - you have the actions of Landlord, with full official British support - you have the consequences
You offer pro - Imperialist bluster in return.
"And the activities of those English and Irish merchants being legal could be prevented by the British Government how?"
By closing the ports to such trade, as Kinealy suggests - how simple could that have been?
Britain backed the free market - that is how the free market operates.
You dismissal of Keith's star witness, Christine Kinealy somewhat gives your support for his case a sever kick in the goolies - perhaps time for an emergency script meeting to enable you both to sing from the same hymn sheet.
"interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads"
Many thanks for your summing up of the Irish attempts to record their history in verse - somewhat reminiscet of members of the British establishment's "whinging Yids" following the events of World War Two, don'tcha think?
After all they're/we're all only t'ick Paddies who deserved "God's punishment.
Hope you don't mind my mentioning it, but you always become frenetically repetative with your use of "Christmas" when foundering your way through problematic facts you can't handle in any other way - a little unimaginative.
Perhaps I can help with some variations – 'Christmas' was fairly popular in junior school, as was 'Lewis' (but I suppose literary references are a little out of your depth)
Why not try "Carroll is a girl's name" for a change – never failed to raise a smile.
Keep flag-wagging Territoon, Terpitude, Colonel Blimp, Chocolate Soldier, Bar-room brigadier, Colonel Chinstrap – whatever you prefer.
Comon boyp – show a little inventiveness – you have become rather childishly boring.   
Yours in anticipation
Christmas Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 10:06 AM

"I would just love to hear what gains in political and economic capital for Britain came out of the "Great Famine" – Damn all as far as I can fathom. It did I suppose leave us with a legacy of a seemingly interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads and a host of complete and utter myths and fairy stories that you appear to have fallen for hook line and sinker."

An unworthy statement in my opinion. Why not ask the same about slavery or the Holocaust?

There is a huge difference between the actions of individual people and their motives for short term gains vs. what is the "enlightened self interest" of nations. You only need to observe the antics of the Tea Party in the US to see the same narrow minded self interest in action.

Man's inhumanity to man goes back as far as you care to look. As long as there are people with power who lack empathy for their fellows, this kind of behavior will persist... new place, new circumstance, but same behavior and outcome... It's the fact that they have the power/ability to put their decisions into effect that causes such hardships. Be they big business or politicians makes little difference to those who end up with the short end of the stick.

As for whining songs... see how cheerful you are if you lose most of your family to starvation and are forced from your homeland... those people were victims of discrimination coupled with a natural disaster that no one of that era was equipped to handle. There is no call to mock their plight.

Britain as a nation carries the stigma... while those culpable made out nicely for themselves and are now as dead as the famine victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 08:48 AM

"Ireland's fate in such circumstances was the direct responsibility of the British Empire, Peel's Government acknowledged that fact and made some attempts to alleviate the catastrophe."

Direct responsibility of the British Empire eh? How? Did the British Empire have a Parliament then Christmas? If it did I have never heard of it, or anyone who purportedly led it? Where would this British Empire Government stand in precedence and relation to say the Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 1845? Would it be superior or inferior? Of course no such parliament existed and there was no overriding monolith called the British Empire, even if there was it would have no say with regard to affairs in Ireland post the Union in 1801 which made Ireland part of the United Kingdom.

The Tory Government of Robert Peel and the Duke of Wellington wanted to do more for Ireland than just simply repeal the 1815 Corn Laws they wanted to push ahead with Catholic Emancipation, but the Corn Law topic split their party and Peel needed help from the Liberal Opposition. The Government lost a vote in the Commons and Peel went to the country which returned Russell's Liberal government.

"The Russell administration abandoned that responsibility, dismantled the few, inadequate measures that Peel had installed and decided to give the market a free hand; they actually stated than nothing should be done to hinder the free market."

That was the ticket that they had been elected on and the Corn Laws of 1815 remained repealed. I think that the one thing that yourself and Ms Kinealy have forgotten is that the political process in the UK does not run on diktat, if a law has to be passed it must first be presented and debated in the House of Commons and passed, it then goes to the House of Lords where they can suggest amendments and then it gets passed into law.

"Their role wasn't just passive, but an extremely active one - continuing to ship food out of Ireland, "

To suggest that it was the British Government who insisted that food be shipped out of Ireland is just fanciful nonsense, the Corn Laws having been repealed, meant that those who farmed and grew the food could sell it where they liked for the best price their crops could sell for. Remember these were "Irish" farmers selling their produce, and that there was no way of getting this produce to the west of Ireland and no means to store and distribute it there. No point at all in apportioning blame where it does not belong or in suggesting totally impracticable solutions and fancifully imagining that things could be done that were impossible at the time.

"It's sole contribution to the crisis was to create a situation where the only solution to the crisis was to emigrate (stated policy) and set up assisted passage schemes."

Yep that just about sums it up – Ireland was vastly over-populated, it's track record was extremely poor as were its future prospects unless things were done to get people off the land. Judge for yourself, famines in 1727-1730; 1740-1741; 1782-1783, what would you suggest? Just let things drift on as they were, hoping for the best, with a burgeoning population boom only serving to make matters worse in the future? Not even sheep are dumb enough to remain on hills with no grazing.

"They deliberately set out to alter the economic and cultural structure of Ireland so it would no longer be the thorn in the side of the Empire that it had been for centuries - and they would have succeeded had it not been for the continuing opposition of 1867 and the Land League Wars, eventually leading to the War of Independence.

The economic and cultural structure of Ireland did need altering, some say it still does as recent events have shown.

"Fifthly, there is a persistent claim that the British government in the 1840s possessed neither the practical nor the political means to either close the ports or import additional foodstuffs to Ireland. This is nonsense" - Christine Kinealy

Idiotic argument – that would have required legislation passed in Parliament. Do you want ports opened or closed? If you have closed the ports for exports how do you get imports in? Imports of what? The famine did not just strike in Ireland it struck the whole of Europe and every country in Europe was buying up American cereal crops so what is it that you are going to import that wasn't already being imported?

Ms Kinealy conveniently dismisses the lack of ports, the lack of railways and the poor roads as mere inconsequential details. But real problems and lack of infrastructure cannot be by-passed and dismissed in retrospect with a wave of a historians magic wand. Food once harvested tends to go rotten rather rapidly unless it is distributed quickly. In 19th century Ireland that just couldn't happen.

"Following the defeat of Napoleonic France in 1815, Britain enjoyed a century of almost unchallenged dominance and expanded its imperial holdings across the globe."

Fail to see the relevance of this

"The gombeen men were a side effect - in no way a cause"

On the contrary Christmas in the west of Ireland the Gombeen men were the cause by forcing fishermen to sell their gear and boats, to repay their debts at ruinous interest, thereby crippling them twice over, once by robbing them of their livelihoods and twice by robbing the population of a bountiful source of protein.

This next one is the typical "socialists" mantra (i.e. It is always some else's fault):

"Ireland was Britain's responsibility and they deliberately abused that responsibility for the 'good of Empire'."

Ehmm No. Ireland was the responsibility of the people who lived there, same as Scotland was the responsibility of the Scots who lived there (No equivalent of the Gombeen Men in Scotland Christmas – so the Highlands did not suffer as badly as the west of Ireland).

Drink any Guinness yesterday Christmas? Arthur Guinness as Irish as they come, his grandson Sir Benjamin Lee Guinness had his hands on the tiller of the Guinness family fortune between 1839 and 1868.

"By 1855 Guinness had become the richest man in Ireland having built up a huge export trade and by continually enlarging his brewery"

Hey Christmas – what are the ingredients for making porter? What were the ingredients required in the years 1845 to 1851? All the British Governments fault eh?

"Woodham-Smith described other types of exploitation - that of relief supplies being purchased by English and Irish merchants, deliberately shipped back and forth across the Irish Sea up to four times before they were unloaded, in order to manipulate the selling prices upward; prolonging the already extreme shortages - part of the 'free trade' that the Russell administration had pledged itself to."

And the activities of those English and Irish merchants being legal could be prevented by the British Government how?

"Britain not only did nothing, but it manipulated that 'nothing' in order to gain political and economic capital out of the 'Great Famine'."

I would just love to hear what gains in political and economic capital for Britain came out of the "Great Famine" – Damn all as far as I can fathom. It did I suppose leave us with a legacy of a seemingly interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads and a host of complete and utter myths and fairy stories that you appear to have fallen for hook line and sinker.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 05:47 AM

Britain's 'Famine Relief' efforts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 04:25 AM

"Rather at odds with the fact that they actually did more than everybody else combined isn't it?"
Been there - done that
Ireland's fate in such circumstances was the direct responsibility of the British Empire, Peel's Government acknowledged that fact and made some attempts to alleviate the catastrophe.
The Russell administration abandoned that responsibility, dismantled the few, inadequate measures that Peel had installed and decided to give the market a free hand; they actually stated than nothing should be done to hinder the free market.
Their role wasn't just passive, but an extremely active one - continuing to ship food out of Ireland, which was already known as "England's Breadbasket", putting armed guards on the locked warehouses and providing military support for the evictions that had begun in 1847.
It's sole contribution to the crisis was to create a situation where the only solution to the crisis was to emigrate (stated policy) and set up assisted passage schemes
They deliberately set out to alter the economic and cultural structure of Ireland so it would no longer be the thorn in the side of the Empire that it had been for centuries - and they would have succeeded had it not been for the continuing opposition of 1867 and the Land League Wars, eventually leading to the War of Independence.
Whether the death toll was deliberate or just a spin-off of British action/inaction remains a moot point among historians, the fact that it was a result of it is part of the history they have documented - everything stated by the historians Numbnuts has put up says exactly that.
To say that the most wealthy and powerful Empire on the planet was not in a position to do anything about it is, as Christine Kinealy pointed out "nonsense":
"Fifthly, there is a persistent claim that the British government in the 1840s possessed neither the practical nor the political means to either close the ports or import additional foodstuffs to Ireland. This is nonsense"
You really should read what your friend has put up.
Another quote summing up Britain's 'inability' to honour its direct responsibility:
"Following the defeat of Napoleonic France in 1815, Britain enjoyed a century of almost unchallenged dominance and expanded its imperial holdings across the globe."
The gombeen men were a side effect - in no way a cause, and to blame them is the same as blaming Trevelyan - Ireland was Britain's responsibility and they delibarately abused that responsibility fot the 'good of Empire'.
Woodham-Smith described other types of exploitation - that of relief supplies being purchased by English and Irish merchants, deliberately shipped back and forth across the Irish Sea up to four times before they were unloaded, in order to manipulate the selling prices upward; prolonging the already extreme shortages - part of the 'free trade' that the Russell administration had pledged itself to.
Britain not only did nothing, but it manipulated that 'nothing' in order to gain political and economic capital out of the 'Great Famine'.
After it was over, they continued to support and actively assist the Landlords, Clements, Vandeleur, Stackpole... the English 'gombeen men', to evict the survivors, leading to revolts and permanent land warfare.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Mar 14 - 03:05 AM

"The British Government decided to do nothing that would effect the Imperial economy and they made that perfectly plain."

Rather at odds with the fact that they actually did more than everybody else combined isn't it?

But then perhaps you would have preferred it had they actually done nothing? There was certainly no deliberate intent with a view to the genocide you speak of.

Very good post from sciencegeek

"Lesson number one... beware vulnerabilities in your food supply. Reliance on a limited number of food plants or animals - not just kind but also the genetic strains of each- increases vulnerability to disease and reduced production. Translation... don't put all your eggs in one basket if you want to protect your food supply from getting smashed."

In Ireland of the 18th and 19th centuries the dependence in certain places was brought about by a mixture of debatable necessity coupled with indolence and ignorance.

"Lesson number two... there are always those who seek to take advantage or profit from another's misfortune... politics and profiteering are two of the most exploitative human activities I can think of."

Land Agents and the Gombeen Men the vast majority of whom like the land owners were Irishmen.

"Lesson number three... good intentions need to be coupled with knowledge & understanding to affect a positive result."

Failed unprecedented reactions of the British Government faced with a unique crisis of unparalleled magnitude that basically they were not equipped to deal with.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 04:31 PM

OK Musket just pick one.
Confident prediction-you won't.

Jim,
It was the genocidal inaction that every single historian who has written on the subject has condemned -
Not true.
the racism that was behind it just explained that
False premise.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 03:05 PM

You don't ask much Keith!

Not enough hours in the day nor charge in my iPad to list your terminological inexactitudes. Anyway, the taxi awaits.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 02:44 PM

I have been long familiar with Trevelyan's letter - what's your point?
The British Government decided to do nothing that would effect the Imperial economy and they made that perfectly plain.
They dismantled the efforts of the previous government and put nothing in its place - that is what caused the catastrophe, not Trevelyan's opinion of the Irish, which was shared by a large percentage of the British establishment anyway.
It was the genocidal inaction that every single historian who has written on the subject has condemned - the racism that was behind it just explained that inaction.
Opening shops so those who had been ruined by the catastrophe could go and buy food just about sums up the mentality of the powers-that be.
This was pretty well confirmed when they prevented farmers from rebuilding their lives by allowing the landlords to evict those worst affected by that Famine - even providing backup - Clements - Lord Leitrim, was one of the worst examples
The railway project was suggested as part of the famine relief scheme to provide employment, while at the same time opening out the rural economy - not just an act of charity - even that was refused.
Instead, meaningless labour projects were devised, like building walls across open moorland, through woods and over mountains, which served no useful purpose whatever.
Around here we have what are still referred to as 'The Shilling Walls' across the old landed estate
Peel's Government sent five shillings to be paid to each man who worked on a project to build 'Famine walls' over a local landlord's estate - the English landlord who was responsible for distributing the relief paid only one shilling per man - hence 'The Shilling Walls
The actions taken (and not taken) by the British Government during and following the Famine virtually depopulated Ireland; Trevelyan's attitude is an indication of why.
Again - what's your point.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 01:58 PM

well... it would seem that changing the thread name from famine to blight did little if anything to change the need to battle over past events....

How about we instead look to lessons that could and should be learned from past mistakes/events....

Lesson number one... beware vulnerabilities in your food supply. Reliance on a limited number of food plants or animals - not just kind but also the genetic strains of each- increases vulnerability to disease and reduced production. Translation... don't put all your eggs in one basket if you want to protect your food supply from getting smashed.

Lesson number two... there are always those who seek to take advantage or profit from another's misfortune... politics and profiteering are two of the most exploitive human activities I can think of.

Lesson number three... good intentions need to be coupled with knowledge & understanding to affect a positive result.

It is most likely that the maize imported was actually flint corn... which needs to be made into hominey to be edible... which is why grits (ground from hominey) is a mainstay food down south. Cornmeal is ground from dent corn and usually mixed with wheat flour for baking, or cooked into a mush or fritter. And you still need to add beans to provide a complete mix of amino acids necessary for a healthy diet. Introducing rutabagas would have worked better in the early years of the blight... imho.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 11:32 AM

Another British Empire Imperialist heard from.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 10:42 AM

Ah Christmas after wading through your usual pointless and ill-informed waffle it becomes abundantly clear that you simply didn't bother reading Trevelyan's letter then?

The Famine existed through the years 1845, 1846 and 1847.

How much of a railway network could have been constructed in that time using the technology available? Considering of course that the work would have to have been carried out by "weak and hungry people being forced to undertake hard, physical labour" - your words Christmas not mine.

Fields of corn were the answer then eh? How were all those tiny parcels of land to be prepared for this crop of grain? Indeed was the land even suitable for planting wheat? How was this seed corn to be transported and distributed? What would the yield be per half or quarter acre? Enough to feed the poor beggar who had to put in all that work plus his family? I somehow doubt it.

Seedlings were another answer were they? What type of seedlings Christmas? Or, as I suspect, do you just simply not know the difference in terms between seed corn and seedlings?

Tell me Christmas when canals became big in mainland Britain for the transport of goods who was it built them? The "Government" or private enterprise? Who was it that built and improved the roads? "Government" or private enterprise? Who was it built the railway networks, "Government" or private enterprise?

Oh by the way take a look at the history of railways in Ireland I think it would surprise you.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 06:06 AM

Just point out anything I got wrong then Musket.

Confident prediction-you won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 06:02 AM

Whilst waiting for the man I am here to see, I got bored so am sad enough to have a quick look at Mudcat.

Great to see my posts still here on this thread at any rate.





Yeah, Keith, you are right all along. Far right at times, but if it stops you coming out with pompous shit, then let's all worship at the temple of Right Keith.

Right.





Still waiting. I came in on the Luas tram, but he is driving in and Dublin centre is a bit on the busy side today. You'd think there were roads blocked off for parades or something.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 05:29 AM

In addition, of course, it was Government policy to give the landlords a free hand and evict tenants who were unable to pay rent, they even provided the forces of law-and-order to do it - this went of for decades after the famine ended.
Don't thik Trevelyan can be held responsible for that either, but maybe I've missed something!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 05:23 AM

Trevelyan was an appointee of the Government - the responsibility for what happened was theirs, not his.
Had his opinions on such a fundamental matter coming from someone holding such a vital post conflicted, in any way conflicted with theirs he would have been dismissed - he was honoured for his work in Ireland - I million dead and mass immigration forever.
The government adhered to his wishes to the letter because they were one and the same.
In the end his was the voice that decided Ireland's fate
When the Government softened and decided to send ship-loads of seed corn for relief, he opposed it - none was sent.
It was the Government decision to dismantle was Peel had set up - not Trevelyan's.
The Government closed the workhouses and warehouses, adopted a policy of laissez-faire and mass immigration - not Trevelyan.
Britain put the interests of the richest and most powerful Empire on the planet before the lives of the Irish people - a million died and many millions were forced to emigrate - that is the judgement of history.
It is not the job of historians to "come up with a solution - it is their job to judge if the actions taken were the right ones - all have said that they weren't.
It doesn't hack it to blame the staff - it was Government policy, pure and simple, that was responsible for the outcome of the famine.
Whether the Government shared Trevelyan's views was immaterial - it was his opinions that were translated into action (or should that be inaction)
Jim Carroll

Trevelyan, Sir Charles Edward (1807-1886), British civil servant. As assistant secretary to the Treasury, 1840-59, he virtually dictated relief measures during the GREAT FAMINE (1845-9 . Together with the Prime Minister, LORD JOHN RUSSELL, and Chancellor of the Exchequer, SI CHARLES WOOD, he was totally committed to free trade; in addition he held the belief that the famine resulted both from a benign Providence seeking to reduce an expanding population and from 'the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people.' From March 1846 he controlled public works through the disbursement of public funds. He defended the export of grain from Ireland on grounds of free trade; when rioting broke out in protest at the exporting of corn he deployed mobile columns of two thousand soldiers (who were provisioned with beef, pork, and biscuits) 'to be directed on particular ports at short notice.' He was opposed to railway construction as a form a relief and successfully opposed Russell's scheme for the distribution of some £50,000 worth of seedlings to tenant-farmers. Informed bv an official, 4 September 1847, that 'the face of the country is covered with ripe corn while the people dread starvation' and that 'the grain will go out of the country, sold to pay the rent' Trevelyan (who had never visited Ireland) replied, 'It is my opinion that too much has been done for the people. Under such treatment the people have grown worse instead of better: and we must now try what independence exertion can do . . .' In 1848 he ceased Treasury grants to distressed POOR LAW unions, though by now there was an outbreak of cholera. Later in the year he was knighted for his services to Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 05:23 AM

Trevelyan was an appointee of the Government - the responsibility for what happened was theirs, not his.
Had his opinions on such a fundamental matter coming from someone holding such a vital post conflicted, in any way conflicted with theirs he would have been dismissed - he was honoured for his work in Ireland - I million dead and mass immigration forever.
The government adhered to his wishes to the letter because they were one and the same.
In the end his was the voice that decided Ireland's fate
When the Government softened and decided to send ship-loads of seed corn for relief, he opposed it - none was sent.
It was the Government decision to dismantle was Peel had set up - not Trevelyan's.
The Government closed the workhouses and warehouses, adopted a policy of laissez-faire and mass immigration - not Trevelyan.
Britain put the interests of the richest and most powerful Empire on the planet before the lives of the Irish people - a million died and many millions were forced to emigrate - that is the judgement of history.
It is not the job of historians to "come up with a solution - it is their job to judge if the actions taken were the right ones - all have said that they weren't.
It doesn't hack it to blame the staff - it was Government policy, pure and simple, that was responsible for the outcome of the famine.
Whether the Government shared Trevelyan's views was immaterial - it was his opinions that were translated into action (or should that be inaction)
Jim Carroll

Trevelyan, Sir Charles Edward (1807-1886), British civil servant. As assistant secretary to the Treasury, 1840-59, he virtually dictated relief measures during the GREAT FAMINE (1845-9 . Together with the Prime Minister, LORD JOHN RUSSELL, and Chancellor of the Exchequer, SI CHARLES WOOD, he was totally committed to free trade; in addition he held the belief that the famine resulted both from a benign Providence seeking to reduce an expanding population and from 'the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people.' From March 1846 he controlled public works through the disbursement of public funds. He defended the export of grain from Ireland on grounds of free trade; when rioting broke out in protest at the exporting of corn he deployed mobile columns of two thousand soldiers (who were provisioned with beef, pork, and biscuits) 'to be directed on particular ports at short notice.' He was opposed to railway construction as a form a relief and successfully opposed Russell's scheme for the distribution of some £50,000 worth of seedlings to tenant-farmers. Informed bv an official, 4 September 1847, that 'the face of the country is covered with ripe corn while the people dread starvation' and that 'the grain will go out of the country, sold to pay the rent' Trevelyan (who had never visited Ireland) replied, 'It is my opinion that too much has been done for the people. Under such treatment the people have grown worse instead of better: and we must now try what independence exertion can do . . .' In 1848 he ceased Treasury grants to distressed POOR LAW unions, though by now there was an outbreak of cholera. Later in the year he was knighted for his services to Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 05:17 AM

I do not recognises any such Keith.
This one has just said that there are different versions of famine History that are known as nationalist and revisionist.
That is a fact so I was, and am, right about that.

No "trawling" required Musket.

So, do you now accept that I was right all along?
If not, point out specifically anything I have got wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 04:51 AM

It is difficult to exchange views when one member, let's call him.. I don't know, Keith, for the sake of giving him a name, tries stifling debate by continually finding snippets, often out of context, on websites that support one view or seem to, and use that to try and stop debate by applying a "this is right, therefore you are wrong" perspective.

Debate is debate. Web crawl Top Trumps is subjective at best and boorish at all times.

Oh, and putting the words of others without qualification and then trying to say you haven't expressed a view doesn't help your credibility or lack of.



I can confirm that potatoes are abundant in Ireland again. I had hash browns as part of my breakfast this morning at Bewleys in Leopardstown. Still got a thick head from last night in Templebar, but got to get a bit of work done today before spending the next few days here with my lad, who flies in tomorrow morning. Beer to drink, spuds to eat and old friends to catch up with. (Also, rather excited about doing a turn at The Oliver St John Gogarty Wednesday night. A bit of an honour.)

Still, waffling on about me being in Ireland is at least more on topic than claiming the opinion of a historian is different to the same opinion and historian when you first mentioned her, eh Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 04:37 AM

1: Trevelyan's letter if that is the one written on the 9th October 1846 to Thomas Spring-Rice, Lord Mounteagle, is one in which Trevelyan gives HIS opinion and evaluation of the situation. No Government Policy is described in any detail and the failure of the land owners to accept their responsibilities is highlighted. No mention is made of the closure of workhouses or grain stores, no mention is made of enforced emigration and no mention is made with regards to culling the population.

If anyone wants to read the letter in it's entirety I provide a link below:

Trevelyan's Letter


2: One thing you omit to mention the relief given by the British Government was at the time unprecedented and was ten times that of the next largest charitable source of relief. It was also greater than all other donations combined.

3: You also seem to conveniently forget precisely how "government" works in a Parliamentary democracy - things are voted on and there are times when members of the political party in power will vote against the government. Those in power then were not the professional politicians of today whose only loyalty is to their party and to keep it in power for as long as possible by whatever means available. You mentioned the "Corn Laws", the importance of which was their repeal to allow free trade and the end of protectionism for home grown wheat for both British and Irish farmers. Peel succeeded in pushing through the repeal of the old protectionist Corn Laws of 1815, but it cost him his Government as he lost the vote on his Bill on Catholic Emancipation. He knew full well that the Whigs who had voted for him on his repeal of the Corn Laws would not vote with him for Catholic Emancipation so he deliberately crashed his Government to put the matter to the people.

4: For all the talk about how the British Government should have done this and they should have done that, not one single person, not one single historian has come up with any detail as to how they could have actually achieved what was required. If anybody doubts what I am saying, just cast your minds back a few months to Typhoon Haiyan, how long did it take for the relief effort and international aid to get organised? How long did it take to get through? How long will it take for that relief effort to show any real effect as far as the lives of the people affected go? And that is with all the benefits of modern technology immediately to hand - None of which were available to the British Government in the period 1845 to 1851.

Did the Famine strike throughout Ireland? No it did not. If you look at the parts worst affected take a look at the means of communication and transportation. Very simplistically people talk about an embargo on the export of food from Ireland, which supposedly had worked in the previous famine in 1782 (Same people conveniently forget that the famines of 1727-1730; 1740-1741 & 1782-1783 were nowhere near the scale of the famine of 1845-1847) - just how was all this food being grown in Ireland to be preserved and distributed to the areas that needed it? No ports, no railroads, very poor road networks, no storage facilities, no distribution network. The most successful survival technique adopted by people suffering from the ravages of widespread famine throughout time has always been - MOVE. In Cecile Woodham-Smith's definitive account of the famine, "The Great Hunger", she details the number of people who died in Ireland from malnutrition in the course of a normal year - it was astounding somewhere in the region of 250,000 IIRC. She also makes the point that if that was considered "normal" then things have to get far, far worse before things get noticed. She also clearly states that the great killer in the years 1845 to 1851 was not hunger it was disease and that the thing that depleted the population of Ireland more than anything else between the years 1845 to 1851 was neither, starvation or disease - it was emigration - i.e. people MOVED.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 03:09 PM

What is my behaviour?

I dared to say that there is another view to that of you and the forum fascists.
I did not even put the alternative view, just the suggestion of it was too much for you.

In return, not reasoned response, but vile, foul mouthed abuse, vilification and ridicule.

With people like you on the forum, ordinary decent people fear to put a view in case it brings down on them that shit storm of mindless abuse.

You people have deprived Mudcat of somewhere to exchange views.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 01:44 PM

"The forum used to be a better place."
It did indeed
Nobody else behaves the way do on Mudcat Keith, if they did it would not be worth remaining a member.
"Stand not upon your going, but go".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 09:12 AM

Kinealy writes about the dispute.
She is part of the dispute.
She says that revisionists do not blame the government.
She says what I say about the dispute.

I claim no knowledge of the famine, except that blame is disputed.
Jim alone has posted pages and pages of telling one version only.

Even to state the fact that there is a dispute creates outrage among the forum fascists.
No-one dares to say anything else and the BS section is dwindling away after being such a vibrant place for so many years.

Not even putting up the other case, but just daring to state there is one produces a shit-storm of foul-mouthed abuse, vilification and ridicule.

The forum used to be a better place.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 09:00 AM

One of the only things left to say is until you show enough interest in this or any subject you use to back up your blimpish jingoism to read something on it you will never be anything more than the laughing stock you have become on this forum.
You have ignored everything that has been put before you, you have not shown the slightest desire to learn anything of the subject in hand and once again, you are backtracking on something you have said throughout this argument
Historians do not say what you clam they have said - you made it up.
You have had enough of Kinealy to know what stance she takes
Yu have already changed your tack on this thread and denied doing so (see above) - from the start your line was that Britain was in no way responsible for the Famine and you then scurried around for cut-'n-pastes which you mistakenly believed backed your case.
Your misunderstanding of the term "revisionism" was, is and will remain a classic example of idiocy.
You have blankly refused even to acknowledge points before you over and over again
You are now refusing to respond to the facts about Kinealy even though you have had three lots
Let's face it Keith, you are not very good at your flag-wagging blimpishness; your behaviour is crude and transparent and it has attracted comment every time you've displayed it - baiting you has ceased to be fun.
Go away and come back when you've read a book, you have become tiresome and I'm far too busy to waste time entertaining idiots.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 08:57 AM

Perhaps the irritating "I'm right and you are wrong" gets on people's' nipples?

Compounded by being an inaccurate observation most of the time....

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 08:25 AM

All you have ever said is "Britain didn't do it"

Completely untrue!
I have never expressed an opinion about it and do not even have one.

All I ever said was that historians dispute it.
They do, so why all the abuse, swearing and name calling?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 06:56 AM

I'll be happy to continue doing this while you are happy to continue making a fool of yourself by denying what's there for all so see
Jim Carroll
The Great Irish Famine was a turning point in the development of modern Ireland. In the space of six years, Ireland lost 25 per cent of her population through death and disease. This statistic alone marked the Irish Famine as one of the greatest human tragedies in modern European history.
Yet it is not only the number of people who died which makes the Famine such a tragedy. It is also the way in which they lost their lives. Death from famine or famine-related diseases is slow, painful and obscene.
Moreover, much of this death from the Famine need not have taken place. The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity.
In the face of food shortages, relief provided by the government was inadequate. Imports of food were too small to meet the scale of the problem. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain.
This year marked the 150th anniversary of 'Black '47' – the single year when disease, suffering and mortality were at their highest. But the Famine did not end in 1847. In 1849, the level of mortality was almost as great as it had been in 1847.
Today – even though famine still exists in the world – it is hard to imagine the suffering, the sense of loss and the trauma of Irish people during those years. The recollections of a survivor of the Famine years convey some of this loss:
In A Death-Dealing Famine she "focuses on the key factors which nurtured both policy formulations and the unfolding of events in mid-nineteenth-century Ireland. These include political ideologies, such as the influential doctrine of political economy; providentialist ideas which ordained that the potato blight was a 'judgement of God'; and an opportunistic interpretation of the crisis that viewed the Famine and the consequent social dislocation as an opportunity to reconstruct Irish society. Kinealy also examines the roles of the Irish landlords and merchants, political factions in Westminster and the pivotal role played by civil servants within the British government."
http://www.ballinagree.freeservers.com/knealy.html

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 06:09 AM

"She does attack the revisionist view of famine History."
You've been told what her attacks on the 'Revisionist view"' are - she says exactly what it is and I've pointed it out to you
"You were all wrong".
Don't you find the constant repetition of this disturbing, even from your own point of view?
All you have ever said is "Britain didn't do it" - how could you possible say anything else never having been interested enough to read a book on the subject?
By the way - did you know that Christine Kinealy has been compared to Mrs Cecil Woodham Smith the "revisionist"
This (critical) review put her point of view perfectly - don't know enough on the subject to make my mind up one way or the other
but it does outline her approach to revisionism pretty well.
You're a jingoistic idiot, bur please keep it up - I don't start work for a couple of hours
A Death-dealing Famine
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 05:10 AM

That is her accusation against the revisionist view of history - it's all up there - read it.

I have, several times.
She does attack the revisionist view of famine History.
She is part of the dispute that you deny.

That whole essay that you copied is about that dispute.
She is anti-revisionist, but concedes that revisionists are "dominant" and long have been.

All I have ever said is that it is disputed.
I was right, and you were wrong to ridicule and abuse me for it.
The "fuckwit" was right and you were all wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 04:13 AM

""In Ireland, however, the dominant approach continued to be based on revising and destroying the traditional nationalist view of history"
The "traditionalist nationalist view of history" has been to deal only with the effects of the famine and not discuss its causes - to rely on emotion rather than facts - Kinealy has said that and it is above for you to read if there are not too many words for you to cope with.
That is her accusation against the revisionist view of history - it's all up there - read it.
Kinealy, Neilson and every other historian have squarely laid the blame of the consequences of the Famine on the Russell Government.
All of them have taken pains to point out the closure of the warehouses and workhouses, the shipping of food out of Ireland, the laissez-faire policy which put the Imperial economy above the well-being of the Irish people.... that has been a major part of all the writings on the subject.
A few (very few) have attempted to justify those actions as unavoidable, but not one single historian has ever attempted to deny them - they couldn't if they wanted to - they are established facts of history.
You, on the other hand, have refused even to acknowledge them - to you, they are unimportant.
You are doing what no historian would dare do - you are attempting to absolve the British Empire from all blame - a familiar agenda with you.   
In a way, all historians are 'revisionists' on the subject - none of them have dealt with the Trevelyan letter and its implications of deliberate ethnic cleansing.
Kinealy makes a point above and in one of her books, which I have just finished, that one of the problems with discussing the history of the Famine today is the likelihood of giving comfort to dissident Republicans at a time when a United Ireland is being negotiated - it's a fair point.
I personally can't see how such a statement from Britain's powerful representative in Ireland cannot possibly be construed in any other way than 'ethnic cleansing and holocaust' - it was Trevelyan's openly stated view and he was left in office after he expressed it - he was later honoured for his services by a grateful Government.
You will, no doubt, ignore all this and continue to distort and misrepresent history in the way you have now made a regular habit in doing.
The only value of discussing anything with you is to allow you to show yourself up as the Jingoistic Empire Loyalist that you are.
You have no support here and you have had virtually none on any important thread you have contributed to.
You have used phrases like 'pearl before swine' to describe those who oppose you and have declared yourself "infallible" - so you have claimed superiority over virtually every member of Mudcat - ignorant "swine" all.
You are now a figure of fun every time you take part in debates, especially ones like this where you openly admit that you have not even the interest to read up on them - have you really never read a book on something you spend so much time pontificating on - is that the level of your interest?
Yours in anticipation of even more entertainment today
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 04:13 AM

""In Ireland, however, the dominant approach continued to be based on revising and destroying the traditional nationalist view of history"
The "traditionalist nationalist view of history" has been to deal only with the effects of the famine and not discuss its causes - to rely on emotion rather than facts - Kinealy has said that and it is above for you to read if there are not too many words for you to cope with.
That is her accusation against the revisionist view of history - it's all up there - read it.
Kinealy, Neilson and every other historian have squarely laid the blame of the consequences of the Famine on the Russell Government.
All of them have taken pains to point out the closure of the warehouses and workhouses, the shipping of food out of Ireland, the laissez-faire policy which put the Imperial economy above the well-being of the Irish people.... that has been a major part of all the writings on the subject.
A few (very few) have attempted to justify those actions as unavoidable, but not one single historian has ever attempted to deny them - they couldn't if they wanted to - they are established facts of history.
You, on the other hand, have refused even to acknowledge them - to you, they are unimportant.
You are doing what no historian would dare do - you are attempting to absolve the British Empire from all blame - a familiar agenda with you.   
In a way, all historians are 'revisionists' on the subject - none of them have dealt with the Trevelyan letter and its implications of deliberate ethnic cleansing.
Kinealy makes a point above and in one of her books, which I have just finished, that one of the problems with discussing the history of the Famine today is the likelihood of giving comfort to dissident Republicans at a time when a United Ireland is being negotiated - it's a fair point.
I personally can't see how such a statement from Britain's powerful representative in Ireland cannot possibly be construed in any other way than 'ethnic cleansing and holocaust' - it was Trevelyan's openly stated view and he was left in office after he expressed it - he was later honoured for his services by a grateful Government.
You will, no doubt, ignore all this and continue to distort and misrepresent history in the way you have now made a regular habit in doing.
The only value of discussing anything with you is to allow you to show yourself up as the Jingoistic Empire Loyalist that you are.
You have no support here and you have had virtually none on any important thread you have contributed to.
You have used phrases like 'pearl before swine' to describe those who oppose you and have declared yourself "infallible" - so you have claimed superiority over virtually every member of Mudcat - ignorant "swine" all.
You are now a figure of fun every time you take part in debates, especially ones like this where you openly admit that you have not even the interest to read up on them - have you really never read a book on something you spend so much time pontificating on - is that the level of your interest?
Yours in anticipation of even more entertainment today
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 06:45 PM

You have carefully selected from Neilsons opinion (that's what it is

Yes.
He is a historian.
There is dispute, as I said.

Definition of revisionism, Kinealy,
"In Ireland, however, the dominant approach continued to be based on revising and destroying the traditional nationalist view of history. This approach became known as 'revisionism'."

" A key objective of Irish revisionism was to exorcise the ghost of nationalism from historical discourse and to replace it with historical narratives that persistently played down the separateness and the trauma, and derided the heroes and villains of Irish history."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 05:33 PM

some historians find that Britain can not be blamed for the famine, when I have quoted historians actually stating exactly that!

Uh, fuckwit, some "historians" claim that the Holocaust never happened, that Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili was a misunderstood humanitarian and that the universe is only 6000 years old.

You are apparently among their intellectual equals.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 02:03 PM

TREVELYAN'S LETTER EXPRESSED CLEARLY GOVERNMENT POLICY - ACT OF GOD - CLOSE WORKHOUSES AND GRAIN STORES - ENFORCED EMIGRATION - CULL THE POPULATION – UNQUOTE
ow youi are openly offering doctored opinions
You are a lying, shameless holocaust denier
You have carefully selected from Neilsons opinion (that's what it is) to make your lying case
What he actually wrote was:
It was not murder or genocide that killed so many, but neglect. The government believed in laissez-faire economics or what would now be called free market fundamentalism (I have a post on the issue here). They believed that the government should not interfere with the market or it would only make the situation worse. They believed (like many today) that aid to the Irish would only make them lazy and dependent on handouts. They believed Ireland was over-populated and welcomed emigration to America. There was certainly a lot of racism, but I believe the larger motivator was aristocratic disgust for the poor. The government didn't believe that poor people should be helped no matter how desperate their situation or what their nationality was. This, and not some genocidal master plan, was why so little was done during the Famine.
The Famine was the greatest calamity in Irish history. People needlessly died due to cold-hearted indifference and the elevation of the market above the lives of people. Nowhere near enough aid was given as prejudice won out over compassion. Laissez faire turned into Leave them to die. But this was a crime of neglect, not genocide. There never was intent to destroy the Irish. Had the government really wanted to exterminate the Irish, they would have done more than let natural disasters run their course. The claims by Coogan and others, while passionate, simply do not have enough evidence to support themselves.
Christine Kinealy actually wrote:
A more invidious variation of this theme is that the population of Ireland today is descended from the survivors—sometimes even described as the 'winners'—of the Famine period, thus implying a collective guilt amongst Irish people. Moreover, it has been suggested, that because a number of interest groups may have benefited from the economic dislocation of the Famine years, it is unfair to blame any other group for responding inadequately to the Famine. Survival and success, however, do not negate the suffering and starvation—either directly or indirectly—of the vast majority of the population.
No practical impediment to government intervention
Fifthly, there is a persistent claim that the British government in the 1840s possessed neither the practical nor the political means to either close the ports or import additional foodstuffs to Ireland. This is nonsense. Throughout the eighteenth century, and in 1817, 1822 and indeed, in 1845, the Irish and British governments imported food for resale in Ireland. In the subsistence crisis of 1782, an embargo was placed on the export of grain from Ireland, despite the opposition of Irish grain merchants. Furthermore, in the subsistence crisis of 1845 to 1847, which occurred throughout Europe, governments throughout the continent responded by temporarily closing their ports to exports (Portugal, Turkey, Russia, amongst others). This was, in fact, a traditional response to Famine conditions. Also, as the Corn Law crisis proved, there was no practical or ideological impediment to government intervention in the market place when it suited the purposes of the government.
WHAT IS YOUR - AND CHRISTINE KINEALY'S DEFINITION OF REVISIONISM ANED HOW DOES YOUR CLAIM OF WHAT HERS IS TIE UP WITH WHAT SE WROTE?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 01:14 PM

Fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 12:24 PM

"Irrational bollocks"

It is irrational that you deny that some historians find that Britain can not be blamed for the famine, when I have quoted historians actually stating exactly that!

I am right.
It is disputed.
You three are, as ever, WRONG, and all the offensive and gratuitous abuse and name calling in the world can not hide your ignorance of the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 12:14 PM

People don't have a rational reply to irrational bollocks.

Fuckwit

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 11:57 AM

Do you three sillies get it yet?

In the context of the famine, nationalist historians blame the government, and revisionists do not.

Kinealy is a nationalist, but concedes that is a minority view and long has been.

Blame is disputed.
That FACT can not be disputed.

You ARE dishonest if you claim otherwise Jim.

Stating that true fact does not make me a "fuckwit" or any of the other nasty things you people call me when you have no rational reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 11:44 AM

Kinealy,
"Thirdly, the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts."

She uses Revisionist in the same way that I do.
That is the usage in this context.

"How culpable were the British ministers of the 1840s? They are charged with having given inadequate, limited relief because of their commitment to a doctrine of laissez faire. However, given the scale of the problem and the acute nature of the crisis once the harvest had failed for a second time in 1846, there was little they could do."

Read more: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/lessons-of-history-the-great-irish-famine#ixzz2Z7fhxnXV

Robert Nielson.
The most controversial issue in Anglo-Irish affairs is the allegation that food was exported during the Famine. This was first claimed by Irish nationalists as a reason to end British rule and the Famine certainly put an end to the idea that Ireland would be a part of the United Kingdom for good. However, it is extraordinarily difficult to prove the claim true or false, and to my knowledge no one has. Records of exports simply weren't kept or have since been lost. It is certainly true that some food was exported, but there is no way of knowing how much or if it would have prevented the Famine. Food was also imported, though again, it is unknown where this outweighed the food that was exported. The starving Irish had little money so merchants naturally (in their mind) sold it abroad where they could get a better price. Had a ban on exports been put in place, lives would have been saved, but how many is unknown.
http://robertnielsen21.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/was-the-irish-famine-genocide/

Human limitations and timidity dominate
the story of the Great Famine, but of great and
deliberately imposed evil in high positions of
responsibility there is little evidence. The really great
evil lay in the totality of that social order which made
such a famine possible and which could tolerate, to the
extent it did, the sufferings and hardship caused by the failure of the potato crop.

http://www.iisresource.org/Documents/KS3_Famine_Interpretations.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 10:54 AM

"Now, piss off back to fuckwit land, like a good lad."
Now why o I doubt that - he'll be haunting this thread till his keepers find him and take him back to the asylum
Jim Cattoll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 10:36 AM

She is not a Revisionist, but she says most historians are, and have been for nearly ninety years!

Keith, you know fuck-all what she is or what she says, never having read any of her works.

Now, piss off back to fuckwit land, like a good lad.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 09:56 AM

By the way - your deliberate misuse of the term "revisionism" was pointed out to you right at the beginning of this discussion, so you are not in the position to claim it was accidental.
You are in fact a "revisionist" as far as the English language is concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 09:40 AM

"Jim, she is attacking Revisionism."
She is indeed - not your distorted interpretation of "revisionism"
You have consistently and quite deliberately misused the term 'revisionism' to avoid addressing the facts of British culpability.
You are still doing so.
One more time:
TREVELYAN'S LETTER EXPRESSED CLEARLY GOVERNMENT POLICY - ACT OF GOD - CLOSE WORKHOUSES AND GRAIN STORES - ENFORCED EMIGRATION - CULL THE POPULATION - UNQUOTE!!
I will continue to put this statement up and I have no doubt you will continue to ignore it - which is fine by me; every time you do so will be a further exposé of your lying dishonesty and yet another hole in your already well-riddled credibility.
"Your are dishonest and wrong to claim there is no dispute."
Don't you dare call me a liar - if you have any evidence what exactly that dispute is and how it contradicts anything I have said, tell us what it is; so far you have only alluded to it.
Jim Carroll
This from the Dictionary of Irish History Studies.
Revisionism
"For others, professional historians born in an independent Ireland and former students of the Institute of Historical Research in London, the British relationship is not paramount. For them, the Famine was a historical problem to be coolly dissected and demythologized. Anxious to wean the Irish public away from myths of the past, the revisionists tended to play down the importance of the Famine, or suggested that it was somehow inevitable and not the fault of the British government"

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 08:57 AM

Jim, she is attacking Revisionism.
She is not a Revisionist, but she says most historians are, and have been for nearly ninety years!
Your are dishonest and wrong to claim there is no dispute.
There is, and I did not deserve to be attacked and abused merely for pointing out that truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 07:46 AM

From the Independant
God and England made the Famine
"Charles E. Trevelyan, who served under both Peel and Russell at the Treasury, and had prime responsibility for famine relief in Ireland, was clear about God's role: "The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated".
John Mitchel, the Young Ireland leader, transported in 1848 to Van Diemens Land, had a different view, calling the famine "an artificial famine. Potatoes failed in like manner all over Europe; yet there was no famine save in Ireland. The Almighty, indeed, sent the potato blight, but the English created the famine".
A Trevelyan letter to Edward Twisleton, Chief Poor Law Commissioner in Ireland, contains the censorious, "We must not complain of what we really want to obtain. If small farmers go, and their landlords are reduced to sell portions of their estates to persons who will invest capital we shall at last arrive at something like a satisfactory settlement of the country"."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 07:37 AM

Now that really is doctoring texts to suit your agenda
This is the rest of the section you have carefully selected
The "revisionists" she is referring you, as she makes quite plain, are those who present only the effects of the Famine and not the culpability.
Are you really so stupid as to present selective quotes when the whole article is there to see
TREVELYAN'S LETTER EXPRESSED CLEARLY GOVERNMENT POLICY - ACT OF GOD - CLOSE WORKHOUSES AND GRAIN STORES - ENFORCED EMIGRATION - CULL THE POPULATION - UNQUOTE!!
You really are an abomination Keith
Jim Carroll

Full quote:
" But the soup kitchens were only ever intended to be a short-term measure, and after the government closed them in the autumn of 1847, mortality again rose sharply. This brief episode, however, in which free food was provided on a nation-wide basis, demonstrated that the administrative capability to provide relief existed. Unfortunately for the poor of Ireland, the political and ideological will to continue the scheme did not exist (see Peter Gray, 'The triumph of dogma: ideology and Famine relief' in HI Summer 1995).
The financial commitment to alleviate Irish suffering was also inadequate. In the course of the Famine, (over a seven year period) the British government spent approximately £9.5 million on various relief schemes. The greatest portion (over £4.5 million) was expended on the ill-conceived public works schemes in the winter of 1846-7 which coincided with the period of highest Famine mortality, as a result of weak and hungry people being forced to undertake hard, physical labour as a 'test' of destitution. Furthermore, much of the money provided for relief was given as a loan to the Irish administration, which was both interest and principal bearing and had to be paid back immediately. Overall, the contribution of the British government over seven years, represented only about 0.2 per cent of the British GNP. Less than ten years later, in the course of the Crimean war (over a three year period), the British government spent £69 million on military expenditure.""

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 06:18 AM

What do I mean by intervene?
Jim and another posted as if blame was undisputed.
It is, so I pointed that fact out.

Not a tiny handful of historians Jim.
Kinealy states that the views is dominant and has been for nearly ninety years.
She says she thinks the balance might change in the future, but the issue is not clear cut and you are being dishonest about it.

From your 12th March 3.59 pm quote,
"Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s"

And,"
Thirdly, the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts. Moreover, both the landlords and the British government have been rehabilitated; the former frequently being shown as hapless victims themselves, and the latter, as being ignorant of the real state of affairs in Ireland, and lacking both the financial and administrative capability to alleviate the situation anyway.
The arguments regarding the role of the British government are not sustainable. In the summer of 1847, in the wake of the almost total second failure of the potato crop, the British government established soup kitchens throughout Ireland. At the peak of this scheme, over three million people, that is, forty per cent of the population, were receiving free rations of food daily from the soup kitchens (which, even by the standard of contemporary famines, is a tremendous logistical achievement). To make this possible, a comprehensive and nation-wide machinery was created within Ireland in the space of only a few months. As a consequence of this scheme, mortality began to fall as, for the first and only time during the Famine, the problem of hunger was confronted directly."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 04:01 AM

We tend to debate whilst Keith claims to intervene.

You know, despite all his dogmatism in pursuit of the wrong bone, it wasn't till I read that word a few posts up that I realised. He must be so far up his own arse.

What do you mean by intervene Keith? Are you saying that when something is said you disagree with, you have to put us right?

That would be most invaluable if it came from someone who didn't spout bollocks on any and possibly every subject.

Wow. Just when you wonder if you are being unkind on a person, they always seem to justify your suspicions.

Any chance of intervening where your friend gets his arse round his fascination with arses?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 04:00 AM

"Historians dispute the question of blame Greg."
No they don't - a tiny handful of your fellow Empire Loyalists attempt to defend British policy by saying (as Mrs Pinochet did) that there was no alternative to giving priority to the Imperial economy rather than feeding the starving Irish.
Not one single historian has ever challenged the facts of the Famine - the shipping of food out of starving Ireland, the closure of food stores and workhouses, the enforced emigration, the suggestion that the Famine was "God's punishment on the lazy Irish" and at the same time a convenient solution to "The Irish Question'.
That policy was made clear by Britain'r representative in Ireland, Sir Charles Trevelyan' in a letter - it is indisputable British policy.
Your breathtaking cowardice in even acknowledging this statement, let alone trying to explain away the genocidal implications of it (which you would no doubt attempt to do if you had the balls) sums up your totally dishonest tactic of hiding behind historians whose opinions you have totally distorted.
If you have one single shred of evidence of any historian denying these facts (not opinions - stated Government policy) then produce it.
The million who died and the countless millions who were subsequently forced to emigrate (and continue to do so) were little more than 'collateral damage' in defence of the British Empire.
Now - you proof that this is not the case is.............?
And once again, a reminder - Kinealy contradicts ever line you have attempted to peddle here. (12 Mar 14 - 03:59 PM)
Yours in growing amusement
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 02:54 AM

I thought you had some respect for Kinealy.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 06:26 PM

Different day, Keith - same old ignorant bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 06:16 PM

I have read no books about the famine Greg.
I have no opinion on it Greg.
Historians dispute the question of blame Greg.
Kinealy says so, and says the revisionists (who say Britain can not be blamed) are dominant and have been for nearly NINETY YEARS Greg!

My case is just that, and I am right and you are wrong Greg.
It is dishonest to deny the disputed History.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 06:05 PM

Nyah nyah! Nah nyah!

Best to revise Keith's mental age downwards from four to two, methinks, if I understand Piaget correctly.

By the way, Terrible Two - which of Kinealy's books have you actually read?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 04:29 PM

it is about stopping idiots from re-writing history

Err, that is what historians do Jim.
Right?

Historians dispute that Britain can be blamed.
That is all I have ever said, and it is true.
Anyone deny that?

You have attacked and abused me for saying the simple, plain truth.
Once again, I was right and Jim, Greg and Musket all wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 04:17 PM

"I have been in bands with Irish people"
You miss the point Bubbly - this is not about blame, it is about stopping idiots from re-writing history
Nobody here- has blamed "the English people in general" for anything, rather, they, like all people, would like to understand their history and set the record straight.
I am a Brit living in the West of Ireland and have had associations with this place since the early 1970s.
My people were Famine refugees who, like millions since the Famine, have been forced to leave their country and live elsewhere.
Far from being 'blamed;' for anything, my wife and I have been welcomed by the Irish people we live among - but that doesn't stop our neighbours from wanting to understand why their families are scattered all over the globe.
One of the problems with history is it never goes away - many Brits I know still fight World War Two every time a German spreads his towel out too far on a Greek or Spanish beach - not to mention the Nazi salutes at English/German football matches.
Please try to keep up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 04:08 PM

You have claimed Britain to be innocent of all wrongdoing

Completely untrue.
I have never even expressed an opinion about it.

Much of the trouble between us results from you imagining I have said things I never have or would!

Musket, the Revisionists on this do NOT blame Britain.
Kinealy is NOT Revisionist but she concedes that they are dominant and have been for over eighty years.

The issue is disputed, and it is dishonest to state it as an undisputed fact.
That is why I intervened.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 02:53 PM

Dear Oh Dear !! Calm down now !!

I have been in bands with Irish people ;I have served in the Armed Forces with Irish People ; I have been put on a charge and disciplined by an Irishman ( Master-At-Arms Paddy Calnan ) ;I have played with numerous Irish people in Tom King's pub "The Herschel Arms" in Slough .
NONE of thes people have never even MENTIONED the Potato Famine , or blamed me or the English in general for it .
I personally have no issues with the Vikings,Danes,Saxons, Romans,French or members of other ethnic groups who have invaded England and raped,pillaged,burned ,or inflicted any other indignities upon us .Life's too short , so GET ONE !!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 02:06 PM

"I have peddled no line."
Yes you bloody well have
You have claimed Britain to be innocent of all wrongdoing and you have gathered out-of-of context quotes from a few sources in order to prove your point.
Blame has never been attributed, so why should any historian deny anything?
The first major work on famine blame appeared last year written by Tim Pat Coogan - historians have not debated it it before this, only to discuss whether the actions taken my the Government to protect the Imperial economy was justified - the British Government have now decided it wasn't and have apologised - you know better of course - don't you always?
You still refuse to acknowledge your incredible foot-in-mouth in choosing Kinealy as your star witness - I suppose you now disagree with her now she has been proved to have cut the legs from under you?
Whatever Kinealy did say - she now has apportioned blame so she must be a revisionist - your deliberate misuse of the term as got me quite confused!
You have had the facts of the Famine, you continue to ignore Trevelyan's statement outlining Government policy - he seems to be the only one you do agree with.
Again, as with World War One - your whole case has been of your own invention.
Somewhat insane, don't you think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 01:55 PM

If it came from your keyboard, I'd lay odds on being satisfied in denying it without even bothering to read it.

Track record?

You know, the word "revisionist" means altering an original perception. Why is Keith so cock sure that anything that challenges a view he is comfortable is therefore revisionist?

It is a relative term. Blame was disputed at the time, never mind when comfortable people wrote about it in the abstract in order to get their own place in history.

"Relating history is a self serving exercise." A J P Taylor.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 01:12 PM

I have peddled no line.
I have not argued any History, and have no opinion on it.

I just said that blame is disputed by some historians, which is true.
ANYONE DENY THAT?????

Kinealy said that the revisionists (no blame) have been dominant since 1930.
ANYONE DENY THAT?????

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 08:38 AM

And by the way - please stop deliberately mis-quoting Christine Kenealy- her atatement - above- indicates that her directly in opposition to your own and her "such historians" refer to thosewho have been peddling your line
Read the ******* article
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 08:34 AM

"Jim, how can I "back down" from claiming that blame is disputed, "
It is certainly not disputed by your historian Christine Kenealy, and the basic facts of the Famine are not disputed by any historian.
The only thing under dispute if dealt with clearly in Kinealy's statement - that few historians have dealt with the apportioning of blame, leaving a handful of pro-Imperialist revisionists to say it wasn't Britain's fault - this is your line - go and read her statement   
All historians agree that the Peel Government tried its best to alleviate the suffering of the Famine victims.
The following Russell Government dismantled Peel's policies, closed the warehouses and contiued shipping essential food out of starving Ireland.
They clearly stated that famine relief was totally the responsibility of the Irish farmers and they deliberately created a situation in which emigration was the only solution - that is the inescapable opinion of all historians to one degree or another.
You still refuse to even acknowledge the fact that he Russell Government's view of the situation was set out quite clearly in Trevelyan's statement - the the economy of the Empire took precedence over feeding the Famine victims, the Famine was a God-administered punishment for the sins of the Irish people and the Famine was a convenient was of solving 'The Irish Question' was the attitude of the Russell's administration- anybody making such a statement would have been dismissed on the spot if it had in any way contradicted Government policy.
There is no dispute whatever over any of these points - how could there be, they are documented facts?
But then again, if you can give a historian who does contradict a single point of history - feel free to do so - Christine Lenealy certainly doesn't
What is in dispute is whether allowing the interests of Empire over the well-being of the Irish people was justified.
The British Government gave its decision on that at the time of the present Queen's visit by apologising for the way the Famine was handled.
There is no dispute whatever - this has been another of your one-man campaigns to justify the behaviour of the British Empire's treatment of its subjects.
So once again you stand alone in your arguments - against everyone of of us "pearlless swine" wh have contributed to this discussion (except Colonel Chinstrap, who offered his bar-room two pennyworth)
Your disgusting accusation that the Irish historians and educationalists have "brainwashed" Irish children (witch-hunting Massachusetts was your comparison) is also your invention, on par with your "All Pakistanis" statement and very much a part of your contempt for the Irish people.
No historian or educationalist has ever taught children to hate Britain - on the contrary, historiand, educationalists and politicians have deliberately omitted to apportion blame, as Christine Kinealy points out.
Your continuing reliance on unread (by you) historians to make your non-existent case is both dishonest and incredibly stupid – I would have thought Christine Kenealy blowing up I your face (yet unacknowledged by you) would have taught you a lesson – obviously not.
Carry on squirming
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 06:00 AM

Does anyone challenge my original statement and my only claim?


In the last couple of posts to the just closed Skibbereen thread, two people state that Britain was culpable as if there was no dispute.
For the record many historians find that Britain can not be blamed.

Renowned historian Dr. Christine Kenealy stated, quoting others, that such historians were "dominant" and had been since 1930.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Allan C.
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 09:38 AM

The use of corn was mentioned earlier. This may be of interest. It was found here.   

Meanwhile, Prime Minister Peel came up with his own solution to the food problem. Without informing his own Conservative (Tory) government, he secretly purchased two shipments of inexpensive Indian corn (maize) directly from America to be distributed to the Irish. But problems arose as soon as the maize arrived in Ireland. It needed to be ground into digestible corn meal and there weren't enough mills available amid a nation of potato farmers. Mills that did process the maize discovered the pebble-like grain had to be ground twice.
To distribute the corn meal, a practical, business-like plan was developed in which the Relief Commission sold the meal at cost to local relief committees which in turn sold it at cost to the Irish at just one penny per pound. But peasants soon ran out of money and most landowners failed to contribute any money to maintain the relief effort.
The corn meal itself also caused problems. Normally, the Irish ate enormous meals of boiled potatoes three times a day. A working man might eat up to fourteen pounds each day. They found Indian corn to be an unsatisfying substitute. Peasants nicknamed the bright yellow substance 'Peel's brimstone.' It was difficult to cook, hard to digest and caused diarrhea. Most of all, it lacked the belly-filling bulk of the potato. It also lacked Vitamin C and resulted in scurvy, a condition previously unknown in Ireland due to the normal consumption of potatoes rich in Vitamin C.
Out of necessity, the Irish grew accustomed to the corn meal. But by June 1846 supplies were exhausted.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 07:53 AM

Jim, how can I "back down" from claiming that blame is disputed, WHEN IT PATENTLY IS AND YOU DO NOT EVEN DENY IT!????

Musket, here is the quote you requested that shows you have completely failed to grasp the issues under discussion.

"Keith's misty eyed jingoistic drivel represents the revision, surely? Even if the Empire loving fools were right, then by challenging the accepted norm, they are being revisionist?"

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 07:17 AM

Where is the link to your claim I don't know what we are talking about?

Show us the evidence.

You can't, can you? Liar etc etc where's my strait jacket?

(Sounds familiar Keith?)

Revision - the art of changing your mind in the light of consideration of present or subsequent evidence.

I doubt therefore I could call Keith a revisionist. He makes his mind up then tries to find evidence to support it. All detractors being liars of course.

I may be the only one who doesn't understand it, although I think I am not alone all the same... But I note I am the only one who has pointed out the UK government fascination with not interfering with Adam Smith principles at that time, as much a factor as the callous disregard of the Irish that such economic outlooks helped formulate.

But there again, I'm not on a list of Keith kite marked historians.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 06:52 AM

You really are wasting your time Muskett - this moron hasn't got an honest bone in his body and the chance of getting him to back down even when he has been totally humiliated is non existent
However - enjoy the circus
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 04:50 AM

Musket, you have no idea what we are even discussing.
Some historians are described as Nationalist.
Put very simply for you to understand, they blame Britain.
The Revisionists do not.

I am neither, and have no "pet historian."

I am just pointing out the obvious fact that there is a dispute.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 04:45 AM

If the "revisionist" view is dominant, then by pure definition and logic, Keith's misty eyed jingoistic drivel represents the revision, surely? Even if the Empire loving fools were right, then by challenging the accepted norm, they are being revisionist? You can't use it as an insulting word when technically the term applies to the other view, prat.

I love the bit where Keith said his pet historian took historical data into account when forming a view. On the gay bashing threads, he asserts that data is definitive and you can't form a view, because data is data full stop.

Why should anyone take anything he says seriously? Granted, I never have done but I can sniff the buggers out a mile off. Goes with the territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 04:42 AM

You are being dishonest Jim.
I KNOW KINEALY IS A NATIONALIST HISTORIAN!!!

All I am saying is that blame is disputed, and it is dishonest to deny that dispute.

Kinealy is clear that it is disputed, and also that Revisionism (no blame) is actually dominant and has been for a very long time.

Can we agree on that?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 04:34 AM

Keith
Last word on this
You have been advocating Christine Kinealy as your star historian and have distorted her view to suggest they support your own
Her statement above is diametrically opposite to everything you have been arguing
You have refused to respond to every singly salient point of how the Famine was handled - you have refused to acknowledge that the government appointee openly stated that the famine was God's punishment of the Irish and that it was a way of 'culling' them - coming from a man in his position, that can only be construed as Government policy, in which case, The Famine was used as an exercise in ethnic cleansing.
Christine Kinealy (your star witness) says exactly what needed to be said on the famine.
You re-opened this thread to continue an argument you had already been humiliated on - in doing so you have humiliated yourself further.
You will now attempt to salvage something from the ashes of your own making - you will do so on your own
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 03:58 AM

There were active contributions from five Mudcat members just yesterday on this thread.
The number of BS threads has just dwindled into single figures.
Why are people so negative about a live and interesting debate?

Jim I know Dr Kinealy is of the old Nationalist school and not a revisionist.
I said that yesterday, 12 Mar 14 - 04:44 AM .

She acknowledges that the revisionist view is now "dominant" and has been since before any of us were born.

That is why I say you are wrong to put forward one version as an undisputed fact.
It IS disputed and you know it because I have been telling you for hundreds of posts.

Others will have to ask Jim why he needed telling so many times something that is an obvious fact and that he refuses to deny anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 03:16 AM

"Oh, well--what can ya do?"
Maybe take some interest in human rights abuses and learn from them?
Ah wll , what can ya do?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:28 PM

Fascinating, actually, the thread subject itself. Love biology.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 05:20 PM

principle cause of the famine was mono-culture.

some large (say 80%) of potatoes were one type. The fungus spread because it had a big target. It was also susceptible to light - it grew faster in the light. Farmers covered the potatoes to slow (or prevent as they thought) the blight.

History repeats itself, it has to nobody is listening.

viz I give you Microsoft Windows and Cavendish bananas

both are subject to viruses (or fungii in the case of bananas) which spread easily due to mono-culture. Bananas are a special case as they effectively only propagate vegitatively, with human intervention. They don't generate seeds (or so rarely as to be effectively sterile). Making all bananas clones, how easy is that as a target?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 04:51 PM

Throw potatoes at them?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 04:36 PM

The more of this I read, the more I think we've got a pair of compulsives who aren't capable of stopping. I wish they'd infested some site other than Mudcat, though. Oh, well--what can ya do?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 04:17 PM

Round and round it goes and where it stops no one knows.

ZZZZZZZZZZ

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 03:59 PM

And just in case that wasn't enough to shut you up;
You were given this in the early years of the last discussion.
You've borrowed selectively from it.
When it was quoted at you later you dsaid you didn't understand how she could have said such a thing.
Despite it having been pointed out to you, you have deliberately misinterpreted the meaning of the word 'revisionism' for your own purposes.
Jim Carroll

Ms Kinealy - the floor is all yours - da-rah!
"Moreover, much of this death from the Famine need not have taken place. The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity.
In the face of food shortages, relief provided by the government was inadequate. Imports of food were too small to meet the scale of the problem. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain."

BEYOND REVISIONISM: reassessing the Great Irish Famine
Published in 18th-19th Century Social Perspectives, 18th–19th - Century History, Features, Issue 4 (Winter 1995),The Famine, Volume 3
'The day after the Ejectment', Illustrated London News, 16 December 1848.
1995 marks the 150th anniversary of the first appearance of a new and deadly strain of potato blight in Ireland; a blight that reappeared in varying degrees over the next six years. As a consequence of the resultant food shortage and the more general disruption to economic life, by 1852 at least one million Irish people had died and a further one million had emigrated from Ireland. Thus, in the space of six years, Ireland lost twenty-five per cent of her population. The demographic decline continued and by 1901, the population of Ireland had fallen to four million. This population decline made Ireland unique within Europe as all other European countries experienced rapid population growth during the nineteenth century. Using the demographic criterion alone, the Famine was a human tragedy of immense proportions and one which was clearly a defining moment in the course of modern Irish history.

Self-censorship
So far, the anniversary of the appearance of the potato blight and subsequent Famine has attracted a lot of public and media attention in Ireland and, to a lesser extent, in Britain, America, Australia and Europe. The coincidence of the Northern Ireland peace process has increased international interest in Irish affairs, and a number of articles, TV and radio reports have seen the two events as being inextricably linked. A number of Irish academics have even stated that the current political climate has facilitated a new freedom in the discussion of past events. An underlying question is whether historians, social scientists, ethnographers, and even some government ministers and journalists, have allowed contemporary concerns to restrict historical debate. If this is the case, what are the implications of this self-censorship on interpretations and reinterpretations of the Irish Famine?

Nationalist paradigm
To a large extent, the popular understanding of the Famine in Ireland still follows a traditional, nationalist paradigm. Within this model, 'blame' is generally attributed to key groupings, either within the British government or within the landlord class. To some extent, these beliefs were fostered by the state school system south of the border, which itself arose out of particular historical circumstances. In 1922, for example, the Free State government instructed history teachers that pupils should be 'imbued with the ideals and aspirations of such men as Thomas Davis and Patrick Pearse' and that they should emphasise 'the continuity of the separatist idea from Tone to Pearse' (see Francis T. Holohan, 'History teaching in the Irish Free State 1922-35' in HI Winter 1994). In Protestant schools in Northern Ireland, Irish history was rarely part of the curriculum (see Peter Collins, 'History teaching in Northern Ireland' in HI Spring 1995). Accordingly, in many Irish schools, a heroic but simplistic view of Irish history emerged, a morality story replete with heroes and villains. This approach, however, was subsequently challenged by the Irish academic establishment. In the 1930s, a number of leading Irish academics—following the lead of British historians earlier in the century—set an agenda for the study of Irish history, which placed it on a more professional and scientific basis in terms of research methods and source materials. At the same time this approach also demanded the systematic revision and challenging of received wisdoms or unquestioned assumptions. What was specific to Ireland, however, was the declared mission to challenge received nationalist myths, and by implication, although less centrally, loyalist myths. Thus, at the launch of the influential Irish Historical Studies journal in 1938, the editors stated their commitment to replace 'interpretive distortions' with 'value-free history'. To a large extent, however, this debate took place within the rarefied atmosphere of academia and failed to percolate down into the schoolrooms either north or south of the border.

Revisionism
In the 1960s, the study of history in many European countries was transformed as historians increasingly began to employ the methodologies of other disciplines and to develop new theoretical approaches. In Ireland, however, the dominant approach continued to be based on revising and destroying the traditional nationalist view of history. This approach became known as 'revisionism'. As the IRA campaign intensified, revisionism gained a new prominence, in the battle for Irish hearts and minds, and challenging nationalist mythology became an important ideological preoccupation of a new generation of historians. A number of leading academics justified this construction on the grounds that IRA violence was linked directly with nationalist myths, although empirical evidence has been less forthcoming.
But did this new representation of Irish history really represent a new reality about Ireland's past, particularly in relation to the Famine? The revisionist approach contained a number of inherent contradictions and limitations. From its origins, although revisionist history claimed to be value-free and objective, it had its own agenda or set of values, which varied over time and
in degrees of intensity. A key objective of Irish revisionism was to exorcise the ghost of nationalism from historical discourse and to replace it with historical narratives that persistently played down the separateness and the trauma, and derided the heroes and villains of Irish history. However, this declared determination of revisionism to destroy the 'myths and untruths' of populist historical consciousness has also limited the ability of revisionists to construct an alternative view of Irish history. Also, as Seamus Deane, the literary critic and poet has observed, in Ireland, there exists 'the felt need for mythologies, heroic lineages and dreams of continuity'. Such myths and dreams need to be explained and deconstructed, not denied, destroyed or omitted, to suit a present
convenience.

Symbiotic relationship with nationalism
From the outset revisionism has depended for its existence on a symbiotic relationship with nationalism. Overall, this has limited the terms of reference of Irish history, and, as a consequence, Irish historiography– particularly Famine historiography– has been polarised within the confines of a concentric and narrow historical discourse. A false–but emotionally powerful–dichotomy has been created between traditional, reactionary nationalism and secular, modern revisionism. Irish historiography has, therefore, been constrained rather than extended as a result of revisionism.
How has Irish revisionism presented or represented historical narratives on the Famine? This has been achieved in a number of ways, but predominantly by rejecting popular perceptions, by deriding traditional accounts, and by destroying selectively the myths of the Famine years. A number of key issues relating to the Famine, however, have been particularly subjected to revisionist re-presentation.

Impact minimised and marginalised
Firstly, in revisionist interpretations the impact of the Famine on the development of modern Ireland has been minimised and marginalised. This is most apparent in the area of demography, particularly in revisionist accounts of excess mortality. In the influential but flawed book edited by Edwards and Williams and first published in 1956, both the editors and the contributors chose to avoid the unpalatable question of excess mortality, admitting only that 'many, many people died' (see James S. Donnelly, Jr., 'The Great Famine: its interpreters, old and new' in HI Autumn 1993). Other accounts have argued that the Famine merely accelerated demographic trends already under way before 1845.
How many people did die during the Famine? Although precise mortality figures are not available, estimates based on contemporary government returns and statistical analyses undertaken by econometric historians have computed excess mortality to have been at least one million people. This figure also coincides with accounts provided by contemporary government officials, including both the Irish constabulary and census commissioners. What is significant about this area of debate is the determination of revisionist historians to understate the impact, in particular the degree of mortality, resulting from the Famine. The death-toll resulting from the Irish Famine makes it unique in modern European and, indeed, world history. Other national famines since 1800 (e.g. Somalia in the 1990s or Ethiopia in the 1980s) have, in comparison, been far less demographically lethal than the Great Famine in Ireland.

Inevitable?
Secondly, there has been a tendency by revisionist historians to view the Famine and the consequent mortality as inevitable, the food shortage representing a long overdue Malthusian subsistence crisis. Furthermore, according to this interpretation, economic backwardness, over-population and administrative inefficiency, made Ireland unable to respond effectively to the sustained crisis of the Famine. But how backward was pre-Famine Ireland?
On the eve of the Famine, Ireland had one of the tallest, sturdiest, best fed and most fertile populations in Europe. The ubiquitous, and highly nutritious potato, was largely responsible for this. But Irish agriculture was not monolithic. By the 1840s, apart from growing sufficient potatoes to feed over five million people, and large numbers of farm animals and fowl, Ireland was also growing large quantities of grain, and by the 1840s was exporting sufficient grain to Britain to feed approximately two million people. Population density was highest in the north-east of Ireland which was also the most industrially advanced part of the country. Furthermore, Ireland at the time of the Famine had a highly developed administrative infra-structure including, since 1838, a national system of poor relief.
Issue of culpability avoided
Thirdly, the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts. Moreover, both the landlords and the British government have been rehabilitated; the former frequently being shown as hapless victims themselves, and the latter, as being ignorant of the real state of affairs in Ireland, and lacking both the financial and administrative capability to alleviate the situation anyway.
The arguments regarding the role of the British government are not sustainable. In the summer of 1847, in the wake of the almost total second failure of the potato crop, the British government established soup kitchens throughout Ireland. At the peak of this scheme, over three million people, that is, forty per cent of the population, were receiving free rations of food daily from the soup kitchens (which, even by the standard of contemporary famines, is a tremendous logistical achievement). To make this possible, a comprehensive and nation-wide machinery was created within Ireland in the space of only a few months. As a consequence of this scheme, mortality began to fall as, for the first and only time during the Famine, the problem of hunger was confronted directly. But the soup kitchens were only ever intended to be a short-term measure, and after the government closed them in the autumn of 1847, mortality again rose sharply. This brief episode, however, in which free food was provided on a nation-wide basis, demonstrated that the administrative capability to provide relief existed. Unfortunately for the poor of Ireland, the political and ideological will to continue the scheme did not exist (see Peter Gray, 'The triumph of dogma: ideology and Famine relief' in HI Summer 1995).
The financial commitment to alleviate Irish suffering was also inadequate. In the course of the Famine, (over a seven year period) the British government spent approximately £9.5 million on various relief schemes. The greatest portion (over £4.5 million) was expended on the ill-conceived public works schemes in the winter of 1846-7 which coincided with the period of highest Famine mortality, as a result of weak and hungry people being forced to undertake hard, physical labour as a 'test' of destitution. Furthermore, much of the money provided for relief was given as a loan to the Irish administration, which was both interest and principal bearing and had to be paid back immediately. Overall, the contribution of the British government over seven years, represented only about 0.2 per cent of the British GNP. Less than ten years later, in the course of the Crimean war (over a three year period), the British government spent £69 million on military expenditure.

Collective guilt?
Fourthly, and as an extension of the above, suffering, emotion and the sense of catastrophe, have been removed from revisionist interpretations of the Famine with clinical precision. The obscenity and degradation of starvation and Famine have been marginalised. Popular books on the Famine, notably those by Cecil Woodham-Smith and Robert Kee, which have placed suffering at the heart of the Famine, have been derided or dismissed by many within the academic establishment, although not, it has to be said, by the general reading public. The Great Hunger by Woodham Smith has sold almost sixty thousand hard back copies, making it the best-selling Irish history book of all time. Irish academics, with the honourable exception of Cormac Ó Gráda, have been less enthusiastic. Roy Foster, an influential revisionist, in an article optimistically entitled 'We are all revisionists now', pejoratively described Woodham Smith as 'a zealous convert', whilst, in 1964, a question in an undergraduate history examination paper in University College Dublin stated 'The Great Hunger is a great novel. Discuss'.
A more invidious variation of this theme is that the population of Ireland today is descended from the survivors—sometimes even described as the 'winners'—of the Famine period, thus implying a collective guilt amongst Irish people. Moreover, it has been suggested, that because a number of interest groups may have benefited from the economic dislocation of the Famine years, it is unfair to blame any other group for responding inadequately to the Famine. Survival and success, however, do not negate the suffering and starvation—either directly or indirectly—of the vast majority of the population.
No practical impediment to government intervention
Fifthly, there is a persistent claim that the British government in the 1840s possessed neither the practical nor the political means to either close the ports or import additional foodstuffs to Ireland. This is nonsense. Throughout the eighteenth century, and in 1817, 1822 and indeed, in 1845, the Irish and British governments imported food for resale in Ireland. In the subsistence crisis of 1782, an embargo was placed on the export of grain from Ireland, despite the opposition of Irish grain merchants. Furthermore, in the subsistence crisis of 1845 to 1847, which occurred throughout Europe, governments throughout the continent responded by temporarily closing their ports to exports (Portugal, Turkey, Russia, amongst others). This was, in fact, a traditional response to Famine conditions. Also, as the Corn Law crisis proved, there was no practical or ideological impediment to government intervention in the market place when it suited the purposes of the government.

Removed from centre stage
Sixthly, the Famine has been removed from the centre stage of nineteenth century Irish history. Instead, continuity is emphasised and it is argued that trends such as the decline of the Irish language, the change to pasture farming, and the demographic decline, would have occurred without the Famine, which was merely an accelerator in these processes. These views have resulted in curious assertions. For example, Raymond Crotty has argued that 1815 was far more important in the economic development of modern Ireland than the Famine years. Econometric historians such as O'Rourke, Ó Gráda and Mokyr have exposed the absurdity of this assertion by combining statistical interpretation with common sense.

Ideological minefield
Finally, revisionism has created an ideological minefield in Irish history, in which those historians who attempted to write traditional Irish history, based on a recognition that reality involves conflict as well as consensus, and cataclysm as well as continuity, were regarded as promoters of a backward nationalist ideology. In regard to the Famine, interpretations which hinted at the issue of culpability of the British government were pigeon-holed as being apologists and perpetrators of the nationalist struggle. Perhaps this accounts for the dearth of serious scholarly research on the Famine, most notably by historians within Ireland. Interestingly, the sesquicentenary commemoration has created a new interest and appears to be creating a new generation of what are becoming known in Ireland as 'faminists'.
For many decades, the tragedy and significance of the Famine have been minimised, sanitised and marginalised by leading revisionist historians (and their supporters in the media). A declared purpose of Irish revisionism has been to 'demythologise' all Irish history, but in relation to the Famine, its target has been almost exclusively Irish nationalist history, and occasionally a mere caricature of it. Furthermore, revisionism has replaced nationalist historiography with a new orthodoxy based, at times, on equally facile myths and shibboleths. The process of challenging and revising should be an integral part of all historical writing. Irish revisionism, however, has stifled rather than stimulated historical debate on the Famine.
Although revisionism claims to be objective and value-free (a philosophical impossibility), in reality it has had a covert political agenda. As republican violence intensified, so did the determination of revisionists historians to destroy nationalist interpretations of Irish history. This has sometimes resulted in an equally unbalanced view emerging which, in the case of the Famine, has thrown the starving baby out with the purified bath-water.

Conclusion
Revisionism has polarised historical debate in Ireland and has stifled the more theoretical and philosophical approach to history which has developed elsewhere. Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s. However, as a new generation of historians emerges and more research is undertaken, it is unlikely that this domination will continue. This is not to say that revisionism in its various guises will disappear. As the American economist J.K. Galbraith has observed:
Faced with a choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everybody gets busy on the proof.
Christine Kinealy is a Fellow of the University of Liverpool.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 03:34 PM

"Christine Kinealy."
Lastworditis again Keith - so be it
ow will you feck off?
Jim Carroll

"Dr. Christine Kinealy, in responding to the words of the Ambassador, introduced her book as follows: -
"In the autumn of 1846, the potato crop failed for the second consecutive year in Ireland. Daniel O'Connell wrote to the British government and warned them that unless they intervened quickly to provide relief, there would be a 'death-dealing famine' in the country. Sadly, O'Connell's prediction proved to be true.
The Great Irish Famine was a turning point in the development of modern Ireland. In the space of six years, Ireland lost 25 per cent of her population through death and disease. This statistic alone marked the Irish Famine as one of the greatest human tragedies in modern European history.
Yet it is not only the number of people who died which makes the Famine such a tragedy. It is also the way in which they lost their lives. Death from famine or famine-related diseases is slow, painful and obscene.
Moreover, much of this death from the Famine need not have taken place. The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity.
In the face of food shortages, relief provided by the government was inadequate. Imports of food were too small to meet the scale of the problem. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain.
This year marked the 150th anniversary of 'Black '47' – the single year when disease, suffering and mortality were at their highest. But the Famine did not end in 1847. In 1849, the level of mortality was almost as great as it had been in 1847.
Today – even though famine still exists in the world – it is hard to imagine the suffering, the sense of loss and the trauma of Irish people during those years. The recollections of a survivor of the Famine years convey some of this loss:"

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 03:18 PM

Christine Kinealy.
"Revisionism has polarised historical debate in Ireland and has stifled the more theoretical and philosophical approach to history which has developed elsewhere. Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s."
http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/beyond-revisionism-reassessing-the-great-irish-famine/

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 12:50 PM

""You wanna ignore" historians' conclusions on contemporary accounts?"
Only the ones you have deliberately misquoted
You wanna go and read something and put the contemporary statements right - no - I thought not.
Christine Kinealy says that the policy towards Famine victims was inhuman - maybe you can start be putting her right!
Tosser!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 12:20 PM

"You wanna ignore" historians' conclusions on contemporary accounts?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 11:43 AM

You wanna ignore the contemporary accounts too Terrytoon -now there's a surprise!!!
That was attributed directly to Trevelyan's statement in 1848 go get someone to read you a book (though you might start with getting them to read you the messages posted on this thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 11:11 AM

"A huge amount of the land and houses were owned by British businessmen and some of higher rank. Rents were often, if not generally paid in potatoes and turnips. In many instances these were brought directly to the docks where they were weighed and then credit was issued by the ship owners who, in turn, paid the landlords from the profits gained when the produce was sold to British markets. In some places the landlords became so greedy that they created what I would call reverse quotas. A family was allowed to retain only a specified amount of potatoes. As few as two per day were allotted per adult and per pig, if pigs were kept. Children were allotted one potato per day. All else was considered as rent."

Love to know where this fairy tale came from. It certainly raises some interesting questions if it were true, so I presume Allan C would know the answers to them.

Ownership of the land. If the major part of the land was owned by "British Businessmen" how was it transferred to Irish ownership and when? The nobility and landed gentry of the "ascendancy" were for the most part "Anglo-Irish" (Not British Businessmen). To simplify matters they leased land to agents who then rented out the land to maximise the agent's profit.

Rents were not paid in potatoes and turnips, for a small parcel of land which the tenant used to cultivate to feed his family, the rent was paid by the tenant working on the land owners land. Now if what you said was true how did the the poor impoverished tenant get his crops down to the docks to be weighed? Must have taken one hell of a long time to load a cargo under this totally ridiculous system don't you think, no shipping company would stand for it logically if you think about it, it would cost them a fortune in time and lost cargoes.

No mention of the real culprits - The Gombeen Men - look them up, you probably won't because they weren't English. They didn't exist in Scotland so in the highlands and western isles right the way through the famine the men fished to suppliment the diet. In Ireland particularly on the west coast the Gombeen Men forced the fishermen to sell their gear and boats to pay their extortionate interest.

Suggest you read Cecile Woodham-Smith's book "The Great Hunger", she's hard enough on the British Government but fairly so and does give credit where and when it is due. She's very scathing in her coverage of the supposed "help" that was received from America and the treatment of Irish immigrants on landing in America (Modern Day St.Patrick's Day derives from it - a PR exercise, a street party thrown to make the Irish more popular among the other immigrant communities in American cities)

The reason most Irish emigrated to the New World via Canada was because they sailed for free. To board a ship bound directly for the USA you had to prove yourself to be of good character and health and be financially sound to the tune of £10, you were then subject to quarantine on arrival. If the ship carried any sick onboard it was held off the coast until all was clear, sometimes that took weeks. Most Irish entered the USA via Chicago from Canada having travelled across the Great Lakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 10:44 AM

2I am not going to argue history with you Jim."
Whewre have you ever -
You are not arguing with me or anybody - you have been given statements on the British policy towards the Famine - you choose to ignore them - why on earth should it be any different from any other of your claims - leopards, spots and all that
"And Jim and Greg."
and everybody else you have ever argued with on this forum - stop distorting the views of contributors to this discussion - you little liar you!!
Byee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 10:35 AM

Musket has said about a different era, "those historians should know better."
Like he does.
And Jim and Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 10:29 AM

I am not going to argue history with you Jim.
It is safe to assume that historians are aware of all that and take it into account with all the other evidence available to them.

When they have done that, most of them find that Britain can not be blamed.
You have had many opportunities now to deny that fact, but you can't.
Can you Jim?
Greg?
Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 10:18 AM

"I just thought it dishonest to state Britain's culpability as an undisputed fact, knowing that is not the case."
Now you are being maliciously dishonest - you have deliberately refused to respond to the actual statements of Britain's representative in Ireland at the time - instead you have manufactured claims by selected "historians" writing a century and a half later to prove (sic) "Britain never dunnit Guv" (again)
I have extracted every single contemporary account of Trevalyan's policy on Ireland from the Time-Line you refuse to acknowledge.
He was Britain's representative and was carrying out their policy.
You will ignore this as you have ignored every other fact put before you - hopefully, you will bow slink away in shame - but I doubt it
Jim Carroll


1846
Charles Trevelyan, Permanent Secretary at the Treasury, told the Relief Commissioners that 'the landlords and other ratepayers are the parties who are both legally and morally answerable for affording due relief to the destitute poor'.
On the 20th, the chairman of the Relief Commission, Edward Lucas, said he believed that current and contemplated measures could not 'provide an effectual remedy'. 1400 out of 2049 electoral divisions in Ireland had reported the appearance of the blight.
Medical officers recorded a rise in cases of influenza, jaundice, and small pox, but particularly of diarrhoea and dysentery, caused by eating rotten potatoes.
Charles Trevelyan commented that 'indirect permanent advantages will accrue to Ireland from the scarcity, and the measures taken for its relief[...] Besides, the greatest improvement of all that could take place in Ireland would be to teach the people to depend upon themselves for developing the resources of the country, instead of having recourse to the assistance of the government on every occasion'.
The first shipment of Indian corn arrived in Ireland. It was unloaded in Cork where it was to be ground ready for consumption. Indian corn was difficult to prepare and not known in Ireland. It was bulky and filling. Sir Randolph Routh of the Relief Commission believed it kept off fever, but people referred to it as 'Peel's brimstone'. The decision to order something so obscure and unpalatable had been taken deliberately by the government, calculated not to interfere with private trade.
On the 20th, Trevelyan informed Routh that government plans should be 'promulgated'.
On the 3rd, a report by the Treasury condemned the payment of people on public works regardless of their results. It recommended that food should be given instead of wages, and if money wages were paid, they should only be sufficient to prevent starvation. This report had been written personally by Trevelyan and had not been reviewed before publication.
On the 21st, a Treasury Minute announced that all public measures for combatting the famine would be brought to a close. Trevelyan believed that relief operations should be ended despite the reappearance of the blight 'or you run the risk of paralysing all private enterprise and having this country on you for an indefinite number of years'
Depots re-opened on the 28th. Trevelyan insisted that grain should be sold at market prices, or 'the whole country will come upon us'.
Routh accused the Treasury of not having made enough effort to obtain food. Trevelyan maintained that food shortages were general in the United Kingdom, and supplies had to be controlled. 'The whole world was ransacked for supplies.' He also said that 'the ordinary mercantile interests of even the greatest trading nation in the world is unequal to such a novel emergency'.

1847
The British Relief Association was established in London by a group of English businessmen. Their representative Count Strzelecki travelled to Ireland.
Queen Victoria wrote the 'Queen's Letter', an appeal for money to relieve distress. The Queen, Trevelyan and Thackeray were among those who contributed. A total of £171, 533 was raised.
On the 25th, government officer Captain Pole remarked that 'outside Dublin, the country is uncivilised'.
The Times described the Irish as 'a people born and bred from time immemorial, in inveterate indolence, improvidence, disorder, and consequent destitution'. It accused them of 'astounding apathy [...] to the most horrible scenes under their eyes'. Punch magazine was also carrying articles and caricatures of this type. This media pressure, fed by Trevelyan and Charles Wood, had an impact on British public opinion.
A separate Poor Law Commission was set up in Ireland. The Treasury, e.g. Trevelyan, was to be more prominent in administering poor relief.
The Poor Law was also amended during 1847 to increase the powers of guardians to assist the poor, particularly smallholders, to emigrate. If a person who occupied land valued at less than £5 turned it over to their landlord, the landlord was obliged to pay two thirds of their emigration costs, and the guardians would pay the rest. The emigrant no longer had to be a workhouse inmate. However, it was not until the 1849 Mansell Act that guardians would be allowed to borrow the cost of emigration from the Exchequer Bill Loan Commissioners. As a result, Poor Law emigration rose sharply, but always made up a small proportion of all emigrants.
Soup kitchens were closed in 55 unions on the 15th, mainly in the east and the midlands. The rest were scheduled to be closed on the 29th. This was later adjusted so that the 'impotent' sick and poor could receive relief until the 30th of September. Twenty-two unions were listed as 'distressed', meaning that they would require external assistance.
Trevelyan himself wrote to the Times that financial assistance to Ireland should be limited, because 'the change from an idle, barbarous isolated potato cultivation, to corn cultivation, which frees industry, and binds together employer and employee in mutually beneficial relations... requires capital and a new class of men'.
A separate Poor Law Commission was set up in Ireland. The Treasury, e.g. Trevelyan, was to be more prominent in administering poor relief.
The Poor Law was also amended during 1847 to increase the powers of guardians to assist the poor, particularly smallholders, to emigrate. If a person who occupied land valued at less than £5 turned it over to their landlord, the landlord was obliged to pay two thirds of their emigration costs, and the guardians would pay the rest. The emigrant no longer had to be a workhouse inmate. However, it was not until the 1849 Mansell Act that guardians would be allowed to borrow the cost of emigration from the Exchequer Bill Loan Commissioners. As a result, Poor Law emigration rose sharply, but always made up a small proportion of all emigrants.
Soup kitchens were closed in 55 unions on the 15th, mainly in the east and the midlands. The rest were scheduled to be closed on the 29th. This was later adjusted so that the 'impotent' sick and poor could receive relief until the 30th of September. Twenty-two unions were listed as 'distressed', meaning that they would require external assistance.
Trevelyan himself wrote to the Times that financial assistance to Ireland should be limited, because 'the change from an idle, barbarous isolated potato cultivation, to corn cultivation, which frees industry, and binds together employer and employee in mutually beneficial relations... requires capital and a new class of men'.

!848
On the 29th, Trevelyan intervened in a scheme to send female Irish orphans aged between 14 and 18 to Australia. He recommended that Protestant rather than Catholic girls should be sent because of their better 'moral education'. Only girls trained in needlework and washing should be sent, which effectively ruled out any from the poverty-struck western unions. The guardians were also supposed to provide emigrants with an outfit.
On the 13th, Trevelyan asserted that assistance should be given only if absolutely essential, because otherwise 'the demands upon us would become infinite'. He criticised the Poor Law Unions for the way they had handled the resources available to them.
Trevelyan wrote to Twistleton that he wanted small farmers to emigrate. 'If small farmers go, and their landlords are reduced to selling portions of their estates to persons who will invest capital, we shall at last arrive at something like a satisfactory settlement of the country.' Russell also commented that 'it is better that some should sink, than that they should drag others down to sink with them'.
On the 24th, Russell said to Clarendon that 'the great difficulty concerning Ireland this year is one that does not spring from Trevelyan and Charles Wood but lies deep in the breasts of the British people. It is this - we have granted, lent, subscribed, worked, visited, clothed the Irish; millions of pounds worth of money, years of debate, etc. etc. - the only return is calumny and rebellion - let us not grant, clothe etc. etc. any more and see what they will do... Now, without borrowing and lending we could have no great plan for Ireland - and much as I wish it, I have got to see that it is impracticable'.
On the 7th, the Commissioners, having tried to get more money from the Treasury, said they felt 'absolved of any responsibility'. Trevelyan was unsympathetic, but admitted that the government was obliged to provide a minimal form of relief, or 'the deaths' would be 'an eternal blot on the nation'. He called paupers 'prodigal sons' who should not be given 'the fatted calf' but only 'the workhouse and one pound of meal per day'.
On the 2nd, the Poor Law Commissioners appealed to Trevelyan to apply some of the government's grant to defray the expense of treating cholera. The Treasury said this could be done 'with caution'. It was not long before the Treasury was accusing the Poor Law Commissioners of being too liberal with the money.
Trevelyan suggested that all children should be put out of workhouses to make room for able-bodied men. Twistleton refused to do this. The number of people receiving relief in Irish workhouses had reached its peak at 227,329 a day.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 09:12 AM

I have nothing else to say.
I just thought it dishonest to state Britain's culpability as an undisputed fact, knowing that is not the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 09:09 AM

I closed the thread. You TWO weren't talking about the song, and I didn't want another installment of the "Keith & Jim sbow to take over a good music thread. I moved it below so you can carry on your public relationship where it's easier for your unwilling audience to ignore you.

But seriously guys -- it's not one of you. It's BOTH.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 08:42 AM

From what I have read the blight was the icing on the cake. A huge amount of the land and houses were owned by British businessmen and some of higher rank. Rents were often, if not generally paid in potatoes and turnips. In many instances these were brought directly to the docks where they were weighed and then credit was issued by the ship owners who, in turn, paid the landlords from the profits gained when the produce was sold to British markets. In some places the landlords became so greedy that they created what I would call reverse quotas. A family was allowed to retain only a specified amount of potatoes. As few as two per day were allotted per adult and per pig, if pigs were kept. Children were allotted one potato per day. All else was considered as rent.

Things were clearly already bad enough and then the blight struck.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 08:42 AM

Britain's culpability is disputed by historians, a verifiable fact.
Do you deny that FACT Jim?

Kinealy stated that those who blame Britain are the minority, and have been for over eighty years.
Do you deny that FACT Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 08:38 AM

"That is all I have to say."
You have the Government's attitude to the famine in its representative Trevelyan's statement.
""effective mechanism for reducing surplus population" as well as "the judgment of God""
That is the nearest we have to an official government statement - not from "historians" a century and a half later
YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO COMPLETELY IGNORE IT
You have been given the chronological list of the Great Irish Famine containing further statements by Trevelyan stating that the British economy was more important than feeding the Irish people (Government official policy)
YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO IGNORE IT – NOT EVEN AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT
You continue to hold Christine Kinealy up as your star witness even though you have said that you "don't understand" her description of the British policy towards Ireland as "inhuman and callous"
You had me worried for a moment – I really did begin to wonder whether somebody who confesses to never having read a book on the subject really does know more than every single contributor to this forum, including those of us whose understanding of it is based on the fact that many of our ancestors (not only mine) fled from Ireland directly because of England's genocidal policy – whew what a relief!!
Just in cases you ever decide to read something - 'yr 'tis again
http://www.irishhistorian.com/IrishFamineTimeline.html

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM

"YOU HAVE HAD NOT ONE IOTO OF SUPPORT"

Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive.

Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree.
Massachusetts?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 06:49 AM

I did state that Britain's culpability is disputed by historians, a verifiable fact.
Does anyone deny that fact?

I am also repeating Kinealy's statements that those who blame Britain are the minority, and have been for over eighty years.
Does anyone deny that fact?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 06:40 AM

Reading a lone sympathetic to your own outlook historian who has to rubbish history in order to get their moment of fame...

Not for the first time eh Keith?

A bit like going to a church and coming out smug and sanctimonious because someone who is paid to "forgive" absolves you of your less tasteful traits.

On the subject of the Irish famine, this was also the time when economics was being seen as a science in a way not seen before. Whilst Trevallian and his cohorts had political reasons for their callous attitude, they also were of the mind that Adam Smith was right and to interfere in trade was ultimately folly.

I would say that in the past, people oppressed others for their own ends. The snag is, the past is ever present, as gays, ethnic minorities, religions and lack of religions find out each and every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 06:17 AM

Jim, I made no "attack."
I want no argument.

I did state that Britain's culpability is disputed by historians, a verifiable fact.
Does anyone deny that fact?

I am also repeating Kinealy's statements that those who blame Britain are the minority, and have been for over eighty years.
Does anyone deny that?

That is all I have to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 05:09 AM

"Jim? Greg?"
font color=red>AND PLEASE STOP ADDRESSING JUST TWO PEOPLE - THIS HAS BEEN A ONE-MAN CAMPAIGN ON YOUR PART TO PROVE THE BRITISH EMPIRE DIDN'T DO IT - AGAIN - YOU HAVE HAD NOT ONE IOTO OF SUPPORT ON EITHER THREAD
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 04:58 AM

You have my offer - take it or leave it, simple as that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 04:44 AM

Kinealy is a historian who does support the old Nationalist view and is not a revisionist.

However she stated that revisionist historians are now "dominant" and have been for over eighty years.
She has also said that she thinks the balance might change in the future.

So, does anyone deny that there is historical debate, and right now most historians do not find that Britain can be held culpable?

Jim?
Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 04:39 AM

You have linked us back to a thread in which Kinealy's statements described exactly the opposite and you admitted you could not understand why she came to such conclusions.
I have no intentions of re-opening a subject with you that you have admitted you have no personal knowledge on whatever.
I'll do you a deal.
You opened your attack on the Skibbereen thread in response to a note I have done for song we are putting up as part of our collection on our County Library website.
It is based around a statement made by the man responsible for distributing famine relief.
Ye was an appointee of the British Government so it can be safely assumed that it reflects the official view of that Government, otherwise they would never have left him in charge of such a vital task.
The statement says plainly that the Irish famine sufferers were evil people being punished by God for their evil ways and the famine was His way of controlling them.
Show me where this was not the prevailing view at the time and I will withdraw the note and replace it with one based on your evidence - I will not accept the usual carefully selected cut-'n-pastes that you substitute for knowledge - real evidence only.
Now - to Mr Trevelyan:
Skibbereen –(Roud 2312) Pat MacNamara
See also, Skibbereen – Tom Lenihan OK
The first known appearance of this song was in a 19th-century publication, The Irish Singer's Own Book (Noonan, Boston, 1880), where the song was attributed to Patrick Carpenter, a poet and native of Skibbereen. It was published in 1915 by Herbert Hughes who wrote that it had been collected in County Tyrone, and that it was a traditional song
Ireland's Great Famine remains one of history's worst cases of a natural disaster mismanaged; locked warehouses stuffed with supplies, enough food to feed the population being shipped out of Ireland by the boatload, and a man in charge of famine relief who believed the famine to be God's punishment on the Irish
In a letter to Thomas Spring-Rice, Lord Mounteagle, Sir Charles Trevelyan described the famine as an "effective mechanism for reducing surplus population" as well as "the judgment of God"   
From the 'Cork Examiner' of March 19th, 1847, reporting on a court case in which a man had been charged with stealing food.   
In his defense he said that he was driven to it by what had happened to his wife.   
The Court was told:

"The starving woman lay in her hovel next to her dead three-year old son, waiting for her husband to return from begging food.   When night fell and his failure to return led her to imagine him dead in a ditch, she lay there in the faint fire's dying embers, caressing with her eyes her dead son's face and tiny fists.   With death searching her, and now with her own fists clenched, she made one last effort to stay alive. Crawling as far away from her son's face as she could, as if to preserve his personality, or at least her memory of it, she came to his bare feet and proceeded to eat them."

Illustration inserted here
Skibbereen 1847 by Cork artist James
Mahony (1810–1879), commissioned by
Illustrated London News 1847.

The legacy of the famine remains a part of the Irish psyche, particularly in its long and unbroken history of emigration.
It can also be found in folk-memory – my mother said her mother always claimed it was a "mortal sin not to eat the whole potato". This was echoed by Kerry Traveller Mikeen McCarthy, who said he once met an old woman who had lived during the famine and told him exactly the same thing.
The last generation had it in their lore; we were told several times of the "Hungry Grass", patches of land supposedly containing unmarked famine graves; it was said that anybody who walks over it is stricken by hunger pains.
One such piece of ground is said to be not far from The Hand Cross on the slopes of Mount Callan.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 04:02 AM

The moderators moved my post to this thread, reopening it.
What I said about historians and Kinealy is an easily verifiable fact.
Does anyone deny it?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 03:57 AM

This is intolerable
You have reopened this thread in defiance of the administrator's decision to to close the topic - grounds for being discipled at the very least on a discussion forum.
It is a subject on which you have admitted you have no personal knowledge whatever - you have said you have never read a book on the subject; nobody on the last thread baked your arguments and you have no support your support here.
You are now mounting a one-man campaign on something to which you have admitted to being totally ignorant on
You appear now to be taking on the administrators of this thread,
What the **** are you on?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 02:27 AM

The threads have been messed up and mixed up.
This one.
thread.cfm?threadid=151520&messages=452#3555978

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 02:23 AM

My short post, repeated here, did not get the thread closed.
It was your hysterical and wildly abusive reply.

I have stated the truth.
There is debate and most historians now do not find Britain culpable.
You know that to be true, and you know that Kenealy confirmed it because it was all laid out in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 14 - 04:00 PM

Can I just make clear why Keith has re-opened this thread
He has just managed to get the song thread 'Skibbereen' closed and now wishes to re-trawl over this subject once more.
I have little oubt that this will meet the same fate.
Irish famine timeline -it's all here
Jim Carroll

http://www.irishhistorian.com/IrishFamineTimeline.html

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Mar 14 - 02:42 PM

Piss of, Keith - it is incontravertable that "God sent the blight, but Britain sent the famine" and this has been proven and documented time and time again, despite what morons like yourself and/or your cadre of tame WWI apologist-type "historians" might blather on about.

Fur Jesus' and all our sakes, don't pollute another thread with your idiotic bullshit.

And if you're talking about Christine Kinealy - none of whose books I am sure you have ever read - you are prostituting and misrepresenting her theses regarding Britain's involvement & responsibility.

So fuck off.

Subject: RE: Folklore/History: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 14 - 12:48 PM

In the last couple of posts to the just closed Skibbereen thread, two people state that Britain was culpable as if there was no dispute.
For the record many historians find that Britain can not be blamed.

Renowned historian Dr. Christine Kenealy stated, quoting others, that such historians were "dominant" and had been since 1930.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 May 13 - 05:00 AM

'I have read that Irish potatoes before the blight, were particularly nutritious, close to being a "perfect food" - far more nutritious that the potatoes we have nowadays. Is that just hogwash, or is there truth to that? '

THat Joe, is definitely hogwash of the first order. Recently a number of growers have put the potato that was popular around the famine, the Lumper, back on the market. It's generally accepted as an ugly, unpleasant tasting, poor quality tuber.

National Geographic article (google will throw up loads, there's been a lot of publicity surrounding this)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 27 May 13 - 04:19 AM

"UK or Great Britain -- it does nothing to absolve the leadership"

Never suggested it did. In fact I pointed out that they could be blamed for political dogma mixed in with incompetence. But the statement that Ireland was a part of Great Britain was just plain and simply incorrect. Some things can be debated and depend on a point of view but other things are just basic incorrect statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 13 - 03:12 AM

"if you want to come to my home and sing songs about killing me."
I have little doubt that, had we a living, creative traditions up to the 1940s we would all be travelling around the world and singing songs about killing Germans, (particularly if we found a cosy beirkeller after we'd just beaten Bayern Munich) just as we sing songs about killing the French, and just about every other nation we have fought with down the centuries.
The famine was a tiny, if horrifically spectacular incident in Anglo-Irish relations and its aftermath still haunts Ireland. Songs about this relationship (there are few, if any Irish songs contemporary with the famine) are very much a continuing part of her history, which is still regularly re-visited via her songs about '98, '67, the evictions, the emigrations, the Land War, Easter Week, the War of Independence..... and long may that continue to be the case.
We visited this town throughout 'the troubles'; I remember one particularly moving occasion during the Willie Clancy Summer School around the time the hunger strikers were dying and the main street was bedecked with black flags.
We heard plenty of 'those' songs but we never encountered s minute's hostility from those Irish people who had travelled from all over the country to take part in the music making - if there was any hostility it was aimed at politicians, not the visiting Brits.
A rather odd incident sums it up for me.
A friend was visiting a town in the south of this county at the time England was playing a European football team in a final.
He went into a pub where the match was being shown on television; the locals, packed into the back room, were screaming themselves hoarse for the English side and were ecstatic when they won the game.
As the trophy was being presented a band struck up 'God Save the Queen" - two beer glasses sailed through the air simultaneously from different part of the room, right through the screen.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 May 13 - 12:15 AM

Sudden Oak Death has been an issue recently here in Northern California, destroying trees in our beautiful woodlands. Apparently, it's caused by Phytophthora ramorum, and it's related to the cause of the Irish potato blight, Phytophthora infestans. It kills our beautiful oak trees amazingly fast. It makes me reluctant to use oak firewood, because I might be contributing to the spread of this disease.

I have read that Irish potatoes before the blight, were particularly nutritious, close to being a "perfect food" - far more nutritious that the potatoes we have nowadays. Is that just hogwash, or is there truth to that? Are there potatoes nowadays that are closer to "perfect nutrition"?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 May 13 - 09:48 PM

UK or Great Britain -- it does nothing to absolve the leadership. Not in Ireland, not in Scotland, and not among those who suffered in England.

There is a time and place for laissez-faire, but a famine isn't among either.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 May 13 - 04:37 PM

"And this was done to a part of Great Britain! The Act of Union made it such."

Ireland was never a part of Great Britain as such. It was part of the UK. The famine was pretty significant in part of Britain too though in the Scottish Highlands. The govt again reacted intiially far too slowly but this was down to their idealogy of laissez-faire (do nothing as the market will fix things)rather than wanting people to starve. When they were finally pushed into action they still baulked somewhat at giving things free preferring work schemes etc. Again their rigid ideology. Nothing more useless during a catastrophe than people in power who are convinced their way is correct despite all the evidence being to the contrary.

I read a lot of Scottish history volumes and the prevailing thought seems to be that the Highland famine didn't go into the apocalyptic scale of the Irish famine because despite it being during the Clearance phase the Highland landlords were still for the most part native and even if they were anglicised they still held some sense of responsibility towards their tenants. Likewise the Church of Scotland was the established native church. Organised charity often prevented it from being much worse than it could have been. On the other hand the ruling class in Ireland were the anglo-Irish rather than native and were more estranged plus of course the scale was simply more massive.

I think the Scottish famine of the 1690s (the ill years) which particularly hit the north-east Lowlands, was perhaps worse than the later potato blight in scotland. Some counties lost 30% of the population. People fled to the cities, fled overseas mostly to Ulster then perhaps across the ocean, or simply starved to death.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 26 May 13 - 02:43 PM

Irish-American Famine Relief by Christine Kinealy


Throws some non politically? motivated light on how the rest of the world reacted to the famine and the plight of the Irish people affected.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 May 13 - 10:52 AM

Having studies several works on the Potato Famine and made several tri ps to Ireland and seen for myself both the records and the graveyards, I can only say that the policies of the British government would lead to international condemnation today.

Too few ships, refusal to use British naval vessels to ship grain, stinginess...meanness...on the part of the government and merchants, a view of religion that makes the Taliban look nice, and above all, an attitude of "well, they're only Irish" killed millions.

And this was done to a part of Great Britain! The Act of Union made it such. But then there is the example of the Highland Clearances and "To Hell or Connaught" as precedents.

It was not England's finest hour.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:58 AM

I haven't found the nettle and comfrey tea mentioned very effective, haven't tried the horsetail. I do use the Burgundy mixture, again not 100% but it does seem to slow things down. But I admit saying that from a background of not bothering with potato growing at all for over ten years after loosing a few crops to blight and only having gone back to it on a small scale in the past few years.

The thing is, not a lot of things will grow very succesfully here (I do not like cabbage at all so won't grow that, pakl choi and some chinese cabbage aside). Two years ago I even lost all tomatos, courgette etc in the polytunnel to blight. And anything not affected by it is likely to be eaten by slugs. It's overall just more frustration than it's worth, it's great when you get a good year though (rare as they are).

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Martin
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:39 AM

I make an organic treatment for blight making a tea using horsetail - here's a recipe:

http://www.gardenplansireland.com/forum/about1313.html

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:29 AM

Olly, whatever the rights and wrongs of the UK's treatment of the Irish during and in relation to the famine (in which particular area I may be less pro-English than you expect) you have a lot of bottle if you want to come to my home and sing songs about killing me.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:04 AM

Planting too early, racist anglos come up with a million "reasons"for famine. When I was young follies in vancouver used to say it was caused by the irish refusing to eat fish. The idea being that on an island there was fish everywhere. Rationalizations worthy of the Nazi paper der sturmer.
They still follow the nzai holocaust denial tactics of minimumizalizing the number. Once an irisman steps on a ship his death is not part of the famine. There are quarantine islands all over eastern Canada. With hundfed"so of thousands of irish grave. Those poor souls died of disease brought on by malnutrition and inhuman transport conditions. A quarter million irish(and some Scotts gaels) are hurried on grosse Isle alone, but they don't,t count. Like all gaels they were not human to the racist militaristic empire. The same empire, I might add, that terrorized iraqi civilians and tortured many people there.

New brunswick has thirty five thousand irish graves on the quarantine island in the mouth of the mirimicl river. The English settlers let them die. Brave acadiens roed over at night to free a few and nursed them back to health. Onfortunatelt the numbers were too big to make much difference in the death rate. There were less than seventy thousand acadiens, and at least one hundred and fifty thousand on quarantine islands in the maritimes(new brunswick, nova Scotia, and prince Edward island).

The cruelty and barbarism of the English has few equals in human history. And some Anglo folk song circles banners singing irish rebel songs. Anglo racism knows no bounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 26 May 13 - 05:24 AM

The potato blight may have been helped out by another factor - planting the crop too early.

Not quite sure what to make of that. To this day the only chance potato growers in the West of Ireland have to get any chance of a crop without blight (other than spraying the bejayses out of it) is to plant as early varieties as possible. I plant a bed of first earlies and hope I can get most out of the ground before the blight get at them.
There's the alternative of a few blight resistant varieties ofcourse, there are a few, but most people don't seem to like the taste of those.

If too early planting has the tubers rot, it's not the blight that causes the rot.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: LadyJean
Date: 25 May 13 - 11:06 PM

My dad spent some time in a German POW camp. The Germans gave the British and American officers corn meal, ground Indian corn, among their provisions. Before the Americans came, the British had used the cornmeal, which is very absorbent, to clean the floor. Americans taught them that the stuff was food. I can imagine what the Irish thought of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 May 13 - 10:07 AM

Interesting stuff, bruce!
=========
DNA detectives

The researchers studied 11 historic samples from potato leaves that were collected about 150 years ago in Ireland, the United Kingdom, Europe and North America.

The scientists found these ancient samples, which were preserved at the Botanical State Collection Munich and the Kew Gardens in London, still had many intact pieces of DNA. In fact, the DNA quality was so good the researchers were able to sequence the entire genome of Phytophthora infestans and its host, the potato, within just a few weeks...

According to the study, Phytophthora infestans originated in Mexico's Toluca Valley. When Europeans and Americans first came to Mexico in the 16th century, the pathogen experienced increased genetic diversity, and in the early 1800s, the HERB-1 Phytophthora strain emerged and was brought out of Mexico, the researchers said.

By the summer of 1845, the HERB-1 strain had arrived at European ports, and the potato disease spread throughout Ireland and the United Kingdom, causing the Irish potato famine. In the 20th century, as new varieties of potatoes were introduced, the HERB-1 strain was eventually replaced by the US-1 Phytophthora strain, the researchers said.
=======
The potato blight may have been helped out by another factor - planting the crop too early. People didn't realize that the potato pieces will simply rot if put into ground that's too cold. The sky may be blue, the weather warm, but soil is much slower to heat up.

We had crazy weather this spring, and it was a relief to read in the paper that tomatoes should not be transplanted outside until the soil temp is at least 60 at a depth of 2-4 inches. We got out the instant-read thermometer (up till now used only for roast beef) and checked. Soil temp was 65, so the tomatoes could safely go outdoors.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: Jim Martin
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:20 AM

The "Lumper" (so named because of its' lumpy appearance)was the variety of potato which caused the problem, being particularly susceptible to blight and with a regime of monoculture (have we learned nothing?) being in place, disaster was assured - but they didn't realise that at the time, of course!

http://www.celtictraveler.com/famine-potato.html

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:40 PM

It was Charles Trevelyan. He also said that the potato blight was a lucky act of providence!!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:11 PM

And some of that corn, by 1847, was being hoarded by profiteers in Ireland. There were not enough mills to grind it -- although "corn meal" had been sold and given away in Ireland as early as the 1830s.

Remember too that Germany, France, the Low Countries and England suffered from the potato blight. Unlike Ireland, however, these countries were not nearly as dependent upon potatoes as their primary article of diet. There was some suffering, but not nearly on the scale as in Ireland.

See The Graves Are Walking for more info.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 May 13 - 05:28 PM

I was posting TIC, bb, not meaning to question the thread name. Sorry to draw it a bit off course, but all interesting stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,Lorgain Guest
Date: 24 May 13 - 05:15 PM

The Famine Plot has all the answers, by Tim Pat Coogan.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 May 13 - 04:05 PM

The name "Corn," applied in UK-Ireland of that time, was a generic term for cereal crops.

In N. Am., nowadays maize comes to mind when someone says corn.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 13 - 03:41 PM

"Even in her day, there were signs on B&Bs and lodgings in London, NO IRISH OR COLOUREDS."
Still around in Liverpool when I was a child were signs in lodging houses saying "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 13 - 03:37 PM

As has been pointed out, The Famine was only part of the problem of what happened in Ireland.
Mismanagement was common and misappropriation of relief supplies occurred regularly. Relief supplies were stolen by those given the task of distributing them and resold; relief money was misappropriated regularly.
Around here they still refer to the walls around the fields on one of the old landlord's estates as "the shilling walls" because, although the workers on famine relief where supposed to be paid half-a-crown for their labour, they were in fact given one shilling, the landlord pocketing the rest.
A local building here is still referred to as "Balls' school; it was run as a school by a clergyman, Mr Balls, who was what they still call "A souper". The children were given free soup, but only ON CONDITION THAT they changed their religion to Protestant.
Landlords evicted tenants who were unable to pay their rent and knocked the houses down so they could not return to them. If the evicted tenants were lucky the local County Home (workhouse) would take them in, but usually they died at the sides of the road.
There is a tradition here called "the hungry grass" - they are stretches of land said to contain unmarked famine graves, and if you walked over them it is claimed that you get hunger pains.
One of the positive stories from that time was of how a cart going around collecting the bodies of those who had died on the roads turned from the main street and up the hill towards the graveyard. One of the bodies rolled off and landed at the side of the road outside a smithy.
The smith ran out and found that the 'corpse' wasn't dead; took him in, fed him up and offered him a job. He survived for another 20 years.
One of the best historical accounts of the Famine the book, 'The Great Hunger', written by an Englishwoman, Mrs Cecil Woodham Smith, and probably the finest fictionalised reconstruction, simple entitled 'Famine' was by Irish Author Liam O'Flaherty.
The most horrific episode I've come across of this time took place in Cork - I think in Skibbereen, one of the worst hit places in Ireland.
Jim Carroll

From the 'Cork Examiner' of March 19th, 1847 reporting on a court case in which a man had been charged with stealing food.
He said he was driven to it by what had happened to his wife. The court was told: The starving woman lay in her hovel next to her dead three year old son, waiting for her husband to return from begging food. When night fell and his failure to return led her to imagine him dead in a ditch, she lay there in the faint fire's dying embers, caressing with her eyes her dead son's face and his tiny fists.
With death searching her and now with her own fists clenched, she made one last effort to remain alive. Crawling as far away from her son's face as she could, as if to preserve his personality or at least her memory of it, she came to his bare feet and proceeded to eat them.
When her husband returned and saw what had happened, he buried the child, went out, and was caught trying to steal food. At his trial the magistrate from his immediate district intervened on his behalf, citing the wife's act as a circumstance deserving special consideration. The baby's body was exhumed, the flesh of both its feet and legs found to have been gnawed to the bone, and the husband released and allowed to return to his wife.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 May 13 - 03:01 PM

Ah, thank you Alan. It was maize then. How cruel to try to sell it to them. Am I right (sorry about senile questions, wait until you get to my age!) in saying there's a reference to this in Fields of Athenry, about some British politician and his cursed corn?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 24 May 13 - 02:55 PM

Eliza, Indian corn was sold to the Irish during the great hunger, it wasn't gifted.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 24 May 13 - 02:52 PM

mea culpa accepted, bb

Not every variety of potato is equally suceptible to blight and in the Andes were they originated, there are dozens if not hundreds of cultivars/varieties. Most of the irish potatos were all basically the same plant, since it is replanted from the cut up tuber... vegetative reproduction as opposed to sexual reproduction from fertilized seeds.

but another "ironic" point is that prior to the introduction of the potato - which many Europeans distrusted due to it being a member of the nightshade family, it often took drastic measures to force people to eat them- a mainstay of the Irish was the turnip (the original jack o lantern) which was not affected by the blight. But there was no real effort to provide seed for other crops and not everyone probably remembered how to grow much of anything else.

I guess this is an good reason to help preserve heritage varieties of food crops and livestock.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 May 13 - 02:46 PM

Am I right in thinking that the British offered the Irish corn for famine relief, which was rather stupid of them as such grain was not known and the people had no way of grinding/preparing it? I'm sure I read that somewhere. Also, despicably, the poor souls were regarded as little better than animals and not worth bothering about. My mother was Irish, a Duffy from Cork. Even in her day, there were signs on B&Bs and lodgings in London, NO IRISH OR COLOUREDS. The particular strain of potato blight caused the spuds to go black and turn to stinking mush in the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 24 May 13 - 02:20 PM

There was no famine in Ireland, just a potato blight. Plenty of other vegetables were grown by the Irish,unfortunately England took them from Ireland and left the people to starve.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 13 - 01:59 PM

No disagreement with last two posts- thread title SHOULD have been
"Irish Potato Blight- Cause Found"

Mea culpa.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 24 May 13 - 01:56 PM

'fraid I have to agree with Peter K - my first thought when I saw the OP was that we may have a better ID on the cause of the potato blight, but the famine was a whole different matter.

Ireland was EXPORTING food, while the Irish people starved. And there has been speculation that many of the landed gentry thought it was a good way to bring the "lazy Irish" into submission - since before the blight it was easy enough to feed an Irish family from the potato crop and not have to submit to the typical type of labor that the industrialized areas of Great Britain were forced into to make a so called "living wage".

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 May 13 - 01:33 PM

They may have found what destroyed the taties, but what mostly caused the famine was - to put it at its least contentious - indifference within what was then the British Ruling Class.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 May 13 - 01:15 PM

This particular strain may have run its course, but the P. infestans species complex continues, and it has shown its variability.

The article is well-worth reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 May 13 - 11:52 AM

A very interesting note in the articles about this new finding is the belief that the blight was a "new thing" that was somewhat different, genetically, from any previous similar crop diseases, and more importantly - if true - the people who reported this result believe it may have "run its course" and may be extinct now.

Of course we "eradicated smallpox" too(?), but that hasn't prevented at least three research labs from making it "from scratch" in the lab.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 24 May 13 - 11:44 AM

For flip's sake! Everbuddy knows the flippin' cause of the potato famine, man! It was that there wasn't enuff potatos for awhiles becoz of diseese and so the people got too hungry and they all started starvin' to death. That is why my fambly the McBrides came to North America in the first plase, eh? Canada can thank the flippin' potato famine coz without it I wood not BE here! And that would be a trajeddy.

- Shane

Subject: BS: Irish Potato Famine- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 13 - 11:36 AM

The Irish potato famine that caused mass starvation and approximately 1 million deaths in the mid-19th century was triggered by a newly identified strain of potato blight that has been christened "HERB-1," according to a new study.



http://news.yahoo.com/mystery-irish-potato-famine-solved-140830483.html