Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,A. Cooper Date: 03 Jul 07 - 11:57 AM I very much enjoyed reading about this old folk song that I remember learning as a Brownie in California in the 1950's. I think it was one of the first rounds I learned (along with "Make New Friends"). I found two written sources for the words and they both agreed. White coral bells upon a slender stalk, Lilies of the valley deck my garden walk. Oh, don't you wish that you could hear them ring? That will happen only when the fairies sing. One source is a third edition "Sing Together" from 1973 (first edition 1949) that I bought a few years ago. The other source is a very old Camp Manzanita songbook from the late 1950's or early 1960's. This was the Girl Scout camp I attended and was a counselor at in Summer of 1964. Now, a question - some of you seem to be acquainted with Girl Guides and I'm trying to remember/comfirm the words to a GG marching song I learned about 1963 from a Canadian counselor. Who are these, swinging along the road With a pack on their back, a song in their heart to ease the load It's been 40(?)years or more since they crowded through the door, But they're coming along as gay and as strong as ever they came before They are guides all guides and in unexpected places You'll meet their friendly faces and a willing hand besides, There's not much danger in finding you're a stranger For commissioner or ranger they are guides, all guides. Who are these, living beneath the sky While the shimmering sun, the pattering rain and the clouds roll by They will dine beneath the boughs and their leader always vows that they're never afraid of wasps and hardly ever afraid of cows! They are Guides all guides...etc. Those are the verses in my head, but how close are these words, does anyone know? Is this a real official Girl guide song? I couldn't find it online. Thanks, nice to find others who have these songs running through their heads too! Old camp song leader, Ann Cooper |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,August Staas Date: 21 Jul 07 - 11:09 AM I learned this from my older sisters more than forty years ago. We would sing it as a round during long car trips. They said they learned it at Camp Fire Girls in the 50s. We sang it along with "Make new friends but keep the old, one is silver and the other gold." I just taught it to my wife and she wanted to know where it came from. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,Guest Date: 07 Aug 07 - 07:06 PM As a former Girl Scout, Girl Scout leader and Campfire leader I was thrilled to see this discussion of a favorite song. I worked at Camp El Deseo in Cuba, New Mexico in the 60's and we sang it there substituting "White yucca bells" for coral bells and "lilies of the desert" for lilies of the valley. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 08 - 06:38 PM My mother, born in 1921, taught me this song from her childhood, so that puts it in the late '20s, early '30s at least. She probably won't remember now--she has dementia--but I know she was in an organization called Girl Reserves. (What relation, if any, this group had to Girl Scouts I do not know.) The other song I associate with my mother's youth goes like this: "Like snow-white sailing boats/ On a blue sea' High in the heavens are/ Clouds floating free./ If I could fly to one [them?],/ If I could ride on one [them?],/ Sailing and sailing what/ Pleasure 'twould be." Any help on that one? |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: Melissa Date: 25 Jan 08 - 07:09 PM Girl Reserves seems to have been a YWCA program which started in the 1920s. I had never heard of it--thanks Guest! http://www.ywca.pdx.edu/camping/GirlReserves.htm |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,kathryn newman Date: 26 Jan 08 - 07:46 AM I sang this song in a Michigan public elementary school in the late 50's, early 60's. My mom remembered it, as well. It seems to me that any music that she knew from early elementary school came from ancient piano method books, and personal favorites of the only teacher in a rustic upper-peninsula one room school. This school teacher was also the only piano teacher for miles, and happened to live with my mother's family all through the depression. The John Thompson books that I learned to play from contained many sailing and sea songs..."Drifting" (Light is thy bark, brother, rest(or bend) on your oars, fair are the winds and the tide..." Perhaps other earlier lesson texts give origins of those two songs. Which leads me to ask: My sister and I have sung this duet for our whole lives...Does anyone know this song? we think that it's called "On the Deep"- On the deep around us, towering billows rise- In its fury bounding to the dark'ning skies. Leagues of angry ocean lash to raging foam. Wildly roar between us and the light of home. It would be nice to know anything about its history. Thank you Kathryn |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: Melissa Date: 26 Jan 08 - 06:42 PM Kathryn and Other Guest..you'll probably have better luck getting info on your songs if you start a new thread. I hope you do that--they look like neat songs! Also, CORRECTION: I misread the Girl Reserves thingy. It apparently started in 1918 and began to flourish in the 20s. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,Jeanne Date: 15 Feb 08 - 07:27 PM I first learned this song in grade school in the mid 60s. I came across this thread today as I was trying to find additional words. We had not sung it as a round and I was sure there must be more words I just wasn't remembering. It's nice to know I had the whole thing. I have already taught it to my four year old daughter. It's one of her favorites. Jeanne |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,Rose Date: 05 May 08 - 07:46 AM Reply to "guest' (25th Jan 08) (sorry, I do not know much about these 'threads' but I do have the words of "Cloud Ships" CLOUD SHIPS Like snow white sailing boats on a blue sea High in the heavens are clouds floating free. If I could fly to one, If I might ride to one Sailing and sailing what pleasure t'would be. We should look down from our ship in the sky On cities, forests and lakes passing by We should sail faraway and at the close of day Anchor our cloud to a mountain top high. Rose |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,ex-Guider Date: 28 May 08 - 03:35 PM I think it's probably White Choral Bells |
Subject: Info: The Girl Guide Marching Song From: GUEST,ex-Guider Date: 28 May 08 - 04:01 PM (1) White Choral Bells (regardless of how it may appear in print elsewhere) because "don't you wish that you could hear them ring"--they make music--and besides, white and coral are 2 different colours. (2) Thanks to Cooper for a 2nd verse to the Girl Guide marching song (in fact, I think it's called "The Girl Guide Marching Song", but I might be wrong about that). It is in my opinion the best Guide song, cheerful, friendly, welcoming, and full of esprit de corps, pride in Guide history, good for hiking to, and not invoking anyone's religion or any tired old army lyrics. The words for the 1st verse, as I remember having sung them (and my memory might be faulty) are only slightly different from those posted by Cooper:
with a pack on our back, a song in our hearts to ease the load? It's been 40 years or more [today Guides must surely sing "100 years or more", instead!] since we crowded through the door [refers to Guides crowding into a room where Boy Scouts were first organizing, to demand that they be included in the movement--a feminist action!] And we're coming along as gay and strong As ever we came before: We are Guides, all Guides, and in unexpected places You'll meet our friendly faces And a ready hand, besides-- And there's not much danger Of finding you're a stranger, For, Commissioner or Ranger, we are Guides--all Guides! I don't know for certain, but I think there no longer is the rank of Commissioner, in Guides. That was a high-ranking district leader. |
Subject: RE: Girl Guide Marching Song From: GUEST,ex-Guider Date: 28 May 08 - 04:16 PM oops--lyrics I posted for the Guide marching song should have said, "song in our heart"--singular, not plural, of 'heart'. I learned White Choral Bells (a poetic description of lily of the valley), and Make New Friends, and the Guide marching song--all songs mentioned in previous posts by others here--as a Brownie and then a Girl Guide, as far back as 1954-5--and they were already old, then. Also of course Land of the Silver Birch, which I believe is a Canadian song ("home of the beaver"!--and of course we're lush with silver birch and still the mighty moose wanders at will). My mother knew White Choral Bells--I think also from when she was a Guide--and she was English (then). The marching song is most likely English in origin. Girls were still singing these songs in the 60s, when I was a leader. My daughter and granddaughters are still singing them, today(with other Guides). |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,Virginia Date: 01 Jul 08 - 03:35 PM It's amazing how many people here learned the song at different ages. It just shows you how timeless it really is. I too learned it as a Girl Scout, but in the early 90s. I was just walking around singing it to myself and wondering where it came from and I stumbled upon this site. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST Date: 20 Aug 08 - 11:53 PM I remember this one from elementary-school music class, about 1981 or so. It was specifically taught as a round, to show what rounds were. The word was written as "choral," not "coral," and it was explained to be in reference to bell-like flowers, and to thoughts of how they would sound if they were real bells. Music all but disappeared from the curriculum shortly afterward, here in CA. Such a shame. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Aug 08 - 02:29 AM I found the song in several Girl Scout songbooks and in several school songbooks - always spelled "White Coral Bells." Google shows 280 results for "White Choral Bells," admittedly a respectable number - but 8,330 results for "White Coral Bells." -Joe said, pedantically....- |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,Sarah Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:11 AM Wow- This thread has been going for 7 years. That's impressive. I was born in 86 (yes, i'm a youngin) and my mother used to sing it to me as a luluby. I forgot about it for a realy long time. Then a few months ago it kind of drifted into my head as I was falling asleep, but I couldnt remember it in the morning. not at all. I drove myself nuts trying to remember how it went. I remembered it today at work while doing dishes. It just snaped back into my head and stayed there all day. I came home, looked it up, and found this thread. I had no idea it went back this far. It must go back even further than any of the writen documents, judging by the way everyone seems to remember it from their mothers and sisters. I'm going to teach it to my children one day. Thank you so much. This made my day. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: jimslass Date: 05 Oct 08 - 11:47 AM yep, sang this as a Girl Guide in Liverpool in the '60's - we sang it as a round. When I became a Guider my Company (or Unit as we had to call them) was a 'singing' unit - it amazed me when visiting others where there was little or no singing. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,FormerGS Date: 17 Apr 09 - 08:44 PM I learned it in GS when I was little; I was born in 1986. Deployed to Iraq right now. I started humming this song and didn't know why, just a great childhood song. Maybe in a year or so another kid will remember it and find this post :) |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,Jack M. Date: 08 Jul 09 - 09:41 PM I have found White Coral Bells, under the title of May Bells, in "Fourth Year Music," edited by Hollis Dann, published by the American Book Company, of New York, Cincinnati and Chicago, copyright 1916. As presented in this collection, White Coral Bells is exactly the same as I heard it in the 50's, both words and tune, except for the title. Since no composer credits are given, although they are provided for the majority of songs in the book, the song might easily be much older than 1916. If the flower "white coral bells" is different from "lilies of the valley," as described above by "Q" on 5/10/07, then it's easy to see why the title of "May Bells" would have been more appropriate than "White Coral Bells;" the latter would only relate to half (1) of the flowers mentioned in the song. On the other hand, the explanations presented above, that "white coral bells" were part of a device made from white coral in colonial times, also seems plausible. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,mishwam Date: 10 Jul 09 - 06:20 PM Perhaps it is meant to be spelled... White Choral bells! They are supposed to mean lilly of the valley, not a coral colored flower. I learned it as line my garden walk. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Jul 09 - 07:28 PM Hmmm. How about "White Choral Belles" - Women's Christian Temperance Choir, or something like that. But hey, coral is white when it's dead. When I was a kid in Wisconsin, old people used to bring us back dead coral from their Florida snowbird trips. I suppose it's illegal to transport dead coral nowadays. -Joe- |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,Randy Date: 26 Jul 09 - 08:20 PM "Coral Bells" is the type of flower (Heuchera). They come in several colors, including white. Lily of the valley is a different flower, but shares the bell-like shape. Isn't it clear that the exuberance of the melody and lyrics points to the excitement of seeing TWO kinds of bell-flowers, noticing their delicate little bell-shapes, and thinking of them as part of the fairy-world? (Lots of fairy drawings show them drinking from lilies of the valley, using them as bonnets, as bells, as bowls, etc. Their tiny delicacy makes them seem like a big white flower bell that was miniaturized.) |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: Crowhugger Date: 27 Jul 09 - 01:26 AM It seems dry/dead coral colour varies: At least 1 kind of coral becomes black. I got some once brought from Barbados. I also learned WCB from my mother who learned it from her mother who was b. 1905. ~CH~ |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,WyoHarpLady Date: 03 Sep 09 - 10:51 PM I learned this song from my mother when I was a little girl in the 50s. I'm sure she learned it in Girl Scouts (she was a camper and then a counselor) in the 30s. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,Another Girl Scout Date: 21 Nov 09 - 06:57 PM I learned "White Coral Bells" as a Brownie in Day Camp,Hills and Dales Park,Dayton,Ohio,1952. For the rest of my scouting days (to 1961)it was a standard campfire song. Also, on the subject of the Guide's song,there's a third verse I learned in Girl Scout Camp (Camp Whip-Poor-Will Hills,Morrow,Ohio)in 1953. "Who are these,a-singing around the fire? They'll be happy to have your company, If that is your desire. Fun is on the way At the sunset hour of day, With a song to sing,a tale to tell,and many a tune to play. They are Guides,all Guides, And in unexpected places, You'll see their friendly faces, And a ready hand besides. There's not much danger, Of finding you're a stranger, For Commissioner or Ranger they are Guides (double clap here), All Guides." Thank you for this wonder thread on these old Scouting songs. I adored being a Scout and my memories of the singing in camp and meetings are such happy ones. I,too,went to Camp Manzanita in the Angeles Crest Forest outside LA (1959)and still have the small paperback song book you could buy in the store there. -Elsa- |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 22 Nov 09 - 07:20 AM I learned "White Coral Bells" in Girl Scouts in the late 1960's. We also learned a wonderful parody: Three shiny leaves upon a slender stalk, Lovely poison ivy decks my garden walk! Oh, don't you wish that you could stop and touch- But you know you mustn't 'cause you'll itch too much! Allison |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,Guest Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:59 AM I learned it in the mid-1950's at Catholic school, but my parents seemed to already know it from their childhoods in the 20's and 30's. Mom was English and she knew the song. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: greg stephens Date: 12 Aug 10 - 07:36 AM Do we have a tune for this? |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,Alex S Date: 18 Aug 10 - 09:02 AM A MIDI of the first half is given right at the top of this thread. The complete tune as sheet music I found here. I tried it out with my software SonneLematine, of course transposed down to suit my bass-baritone, and found it a challenge. Girl Scouting seems to have the miraculous effect that even contraltos can reach a" - what do we need fairies for, then? Resp. would Girl Scouts actually hear the flowers ring? Or is that a hallucination due to exhausted breath? Keep singing till the lungs burst! Alex |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,Bjarne Date: 20 Aug 10 - 02:43 PM So I guess we have England about 1920, that would fit both the tune and the text. Holland and Germany seem to be unsupported, or does anyone know about that evidence "cetmst" wrote about above, back in '03? The Bells in the title must be flowers; if they were anything more rigid, you wouldn't need fairies to sound them. Actually the tune is not the best round ever written, simplistic in style and wasteful in ambitus, as Alex S rightly points out. It is the text that makes the song attractive: neo-romantic lyrics without any intellectual ambitions, as if made for a Girl Scout's friendship book. So I guess the melody was composed after the text, which is another argument contra a non-English provenance. Who knows a printed source from earlier than 1930? Bjarne |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,Bjarne Date: 20 Aug 10 - 02:54 PM PS: I must add that of course there are many Girl Scouts with intellectual ambitions, even successful ones, but it is in the best traditions of Scouting not to display them unnecessarily in order not to shame one's companions. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Aug 10 - 03:48 PM Anybody have Fourth Year Music by Hollis Dann so we can verify that 1916 date and check for origins? I have grades 2, 3, and 5 - but not 4. I've checked, and the earliest reference I can find is the 1939 Cokesbury Game Book. I'm not doubting the source above that cites the 1916 Hollis Dann book, but I'd like to see if we can glean for more details. -Joe- |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,Bjarne Date: 20 Aug 10 - 05:04 PM Indeed, Joe, I had overlooked Jack M.'s contribution above who seems to testify as an eye-witness. He writes he saw the same lyrics and melody, just the title being added. This puts us back to America and 1916, and we should search for an origin earlier than that. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 20 Aug 10 - 07:55 PM A number of sites say "traditional English," but nothing more definite. In King's Singers and other songbooks. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,Bjarne Date: 21 Aug 10 - 06:17 AM Another important set of questions to all of you: "open mike" gives a version for mouth organ that has the melody repeated. This makes it effectively a two-part round with two stanzas, each having exactly the melody given by the MIDI. In other sources I know, including "Alex S"'s sheet, the lines 3 and 4 have their own melody, making a full four-voiced round. Which version is found in the old sources? And which one did you learn and sing? My guess is that the extra melody has been added later to fill the four-part harmony at the expense of melodic consistency and general singability. Bjarne |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 Aug 10 - 02:08 PM In about a week I should have a copy of the 1916 school song book that purports to have "White Coral Bells." Found one cheap. There should be an old English song book with the song, if claims that it is English are correct. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: GUEST,Bjarne Date: 22 Aug 10 - 04:57 AM Thanks to all. Unfortunately I have to leave right now (on a jet plane ...) and I won't be able to access mudcat for a couple of months. Therefore I must thank "Q" and any future contributors in advance. My friends here, who are as interested as I am, will continue to watch this thread and inform me about any progress. Have a goot time! Bjarne |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells From: Ebbie Date: 23 Aug 10 - 02:47 AM I'm going to suggest an heretical thought. Is it possible that the original theme was 'choral' bells? As in White choral bells upon a slender stalk Lilies of the Valley deck the garden walk etc, etc I say that because, as noted above, coral bells and lily of the valley bear only a superficial similarity. But lily of the valley does have the bells. White Choral Bells? |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells/White Choral Bells From: Ebbie Date: 23 Aug 10 - 12:39 PM sheesh I completely missed the repeated mention of 'choral' in the earlier posts. I thought I was being original. ;~\ |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells/White Choral Bells From: GUEST,Ceto Date: 25 Aug 10 - 07:31 AM The books I own and many internet sources give exactly the melody of the MIDI file posted here. Many others don't give any melody, but assert that it's a two part round. Therefore I think that this has always been the standard version. The version in four parts linked above I found in one other place only, in C major. In my opinion, it's clearly apocryphal. Since the four lines of the text form a tight unit, the desire for such an extention is quite understandable. So it may not be too much of a sacrilege that I propose one of my own making, much easier to sing and sounding better, I hope: X: 3 (For the closing fermata, add a C4 ad lib.) Would the first group of Girl Scouts to try this out at the campfire please post their opinion here ;-). Ceto |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells/White Choral Bells From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:50 PM I just found another source with four parts: The book "Earth and Nature Songs" by Jerry Silverman. The melody is almost the same as given by Alex, but rises even a full tone higher (up to transposition)! That book is well known in Europe, so the melody given there can't be considered totally spurious. |
Subject: Lyr. Add: MAY BELLS (Round) / WHITE CORAL BELLS From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Sep 10 - 04:31 PM MAY BELLS 4/4 Round 1 White coral bells upon a slender stalk- Lilies of the valley deck our garden walk. 2 Oh, don't you wish that you could hear them ring? That could happen only when fairies sing. With score. Also score for Two-Part Study. No author or provenance. Hollis Dann, 1916, Fourth year Music, p. 115; American Book Company, New York. There should be earlier printings of this round. Click to play (1916 tune) |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells/White Choral Bells From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:13 PM refresh |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells/White Choral Bells From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:26 PM Q sent me a scan from the Hollis Dann Music Series, Fourth Grade Music book (1916). It's more-or-less the same tune as I posted before from the 1973 Girl Scouts Singing Together songbook, mostly a difference in enharmonic spelling. But since the 1916 version is the earliest we've found, I've posted it. Thanks, Q. -Joe- Click to play (1916 tune) |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells/White Choral Bells From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Sep 10 - 08:13 PM European Lily of the Valley, May Bells, Our Lady's Tears, are all names for the same plant, Convallaria majalis. It grows from Zome 4 to zone 8. All parts of the plant are poisonous if ingested. Attractive to bees, butterflies. Invasive, can become a noxious weed in certain situations. White coral bells belong to Heuchera The cultivar Silver Scrolls has white to near-white flowers. Cultivars of Heuchera sanguinea have flowers that may be white, pink, or shades in between. Heuchera pubescens is always white to near-white. Also attractive to bees. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells/White Choral Bells From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 09 Sep 10 - 09:27 AM Q and Joe, if my hearing doesn't betray me, your MIDIs have exactly the same melody as the file linked to right on top of this thread, just transposed and repeated. Does "4/4 Round" mean four-part? If so, when would Hollis Dann let the second voice start? After two bars??? How old is Jerry Silverman's melody/continuation (which covers the entire text without repeating, as pointed out before)? Who has ever sung it "in vivo"? The Quest continues. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells/White Choral Bells From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Sep 10 - 02:23 PM 4/4 means sung in 4/4 time. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells/White Choral Bells From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 09 Sep 10 - 05:26 PM @Q: So this is settled, thank you very much. Thanks to all the posters also from Bjarne (via phone). @Ceto: In theory, this would improve your chances. But I'm afraid, however good your composition: for "proposing" to Girl Scouts you are probably late by many decades ;-). The other questions remain to be answered. |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells/White Choral Bells From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 15 Oct 10 - 10:06 AM To refresh this thread, I took the trouble to transcribe the four-part version in Jerry Silverman's book, following Guest Ceto's pattern, transposed from G major to C major:
Guest Alex' D major variant differs from this at the end of the third line. Who else has ever sung or read any of these, when and where? (Mel Bay is a coincidential spoonerism of May Bell ...) To play or display ABC tunes, try concertina.net |
Subject: RE: Origins: White Coral Bells/White Choral Bells From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Oct 10 - 09:31 PM Hi, Grishka- I'd suggest adding Q: 140 to the heading of that ABC notation. -Joe- |
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