BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo

Subject: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 02:42 PM

I am a conservative Republican who voted for George Bush, but I can not vote again for the illiterate, ignorant, uncredentialed, untruthful, banty rooster. He should have never been elected and I am ashamed I voted for him. My reason at the time was I could not vote for Al Gore because I did not want a continuation of any administration related to the amoral Bill Clinton, among other lesser reasons. I will vote for a Democrat if it means Mr. Bush (I still can't call him President) is defeated. However, the Democrat must be better than Bush to get my vote (I know, my one vote probably does not matter much anyway, but I want and need to vote). I will force myself to watch the State Of The Union address tonight because that is my civic duty as a U.S. citizen, but the sight of Mr. Bush and his diction is just about all I can take.

Many of my views on life and society are formulated by my conservative upbringing, education, and my innate conscience of right and wrong.
I may not be able to support the Democratic Party because of some of my conservative views:

I am against liberal social welfare. People need to be productive citizens and I have no sympathy for bums, drug addicts, social misfits, and people who believe their way in life should be given to them by society. I am for helping all people get back on their feet, but with a positive payback to society for that help.

I support the death penalty for anyone with 3 serious felonious crimes, 3 strikes and you're out of life (not for life). Societies spend an inordinate amount of funds to house criminals that can not or will not function in society. For one homicide, you get the death penalty.

Illegal drugs should never be legalized.

Homosexual marriage should never be allowed. I would support civil unions for homosexuals only because there is no other option. It is one of the great conundrums of life.   

Government should be downsized where possible, but outsourcing to other countries should not be allowed. Outsourcing to U.S. citizens is prudent, but some jobs are inherently governmental.

NAFTA is a failure.

Illegal immigrants should not be given Amnesty.

The Death Tax is wrong.

There should be a strong and unwavering separation of church and state. I doubt that a Christian, Jew, etc. would want a Muslim President to publicly praise Allah or be compelled to adhere to the principles of the Koran in government buildings and institutions. The Bible, Koran, and all ecclesiastical references should be left out of government and let people practice their beliefs on a personal level.

Though not a clearly political (Democrat vs. Republican) I am against the Iraq invasion and we should leave soon. This was Mr. Bush's Christian Crusade and retribution for "them" trying to kill Bush Sr. and to "finish" the war his daddy started. This is just what would you expect a son to do to gain a father's admiration and pride. Once the Bush cabinet was formulated it was evident that the "Old Guard" was ready to go to war. I just did not think Mr. Bush and his Christian followers would lie to go to war and needlessly risk the lives of our soldiers.   
Also, I think the "war cabinet" was one reason why Saddam was so defiant and it was a provocation to all Muslims. I'm sure it appeared to them that all America, by electing another Bush and many of his father's former cabinet members, was determined to go to war against them. If Mr. O'Neill can be believed, this is more evidence supporting that view.

The biggest problem facing the world is the increase in mankind's population with the resultant overuse of nonrenewable resources. This is another great conundrum in life. As a father, I am not sure I want the government setting limits on family size, but some incentive should be given to people who voluntarily limit family size. Illegal immigration of cultures that have large families will only exacerbate the population problem.

I once was considering voting for Mr. Dean. I thought that as a physician he understood the scientific method and could apply that knowledge to logically work through societies problems. However, now I see him as the banty rooster of the Democratic Party, intelligent but not too smart. His demeanor is off-base and he does not seem to have consistent views.

As a veteran, I strongly considered Mr. Clark. His credentials as first in his class at West Point and being a Rhodes Scholar were very impressive. He seems to have a problem telling the truth much like Mr. Clinton, another Rhodes Scholar. Yet another great conundrum: wise, educated men who are very untruthful and of flawed character. I just don't understand that. I do understand Mr. Bush. He is transparently uneducated, dishonest, and a fool. He believes God speaks directly to him and that he is following God's direction. I will try to turn his speech off tonight before his obligatory valediction of "may God continue to bless America" (ughmurka) or "God Bless America".

So, about the only Democrat I could possibly vote for is John Kerry. If you can, give me some good reasons to vote for this man.
                
Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 02:52 PM

Sounds like you listed them yourself through a proce3ss of elimination, Cruiser.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 02:56 PM

Well, for one thing, Kerry had the balls to go to Vietnam and then the courage to work against that war after he was back and out of the Navy.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 02:57 PM

Amos, would you vote for Kerry and why or why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 03:20 PM

Cruiser.. you are obviously a thinking man who is aware of the various issues confronting up as a nation. Some of your positions are quite 'conservative', some are a bit more 'liberal'. NO party or candidate is likely to mirror 'precisely' what you believe...but you seem to be, above all, looking for an honest man who will do his best to be fair and listen.

In my view, several of the Democratic candidates would do this..(as would a number of Republicans whom you will not get to vote for this time around!) If you'd like to support someone who would at least not continue the unfortunate path Bush has taken, Kerry, Dean, Edwards, Clark all seem like they would do ok until the Republicans choose someone you could support next time around.

Since you value military service and knowlege, Kerry and Clark might be your best choices..(I am not sure that Clark is 'untruthful', as you seem to fret about..he is just still not well analyzed by the media and pundits, not having been 'in' politics that long.)

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 03:25 PM

"As a veteran, I strongly considered Mr. Clark. His credentials as first in his class at West Point and being a Rhodes Scholar were very impressive. He seems to have a problem telling the truth much like Mr. Clinton, another Rhodes Scholar. Yet another great conundrum: wise, educated men who are very untruthful and of flawed character. I just don't understand that. I do understand Mr. Bush. He is transparently uneducated, dishonest, and a fool. He believes God speaks directly to him and that he is following God's direction."

where's the contest? as you just said " wise,educated,untruthful, flawed character" vs. "uneducated, dishonest, fool, believes God speaks directly to him". choice number two has no possible upside and is a pretender to the defense of your conservative values and, if given an actual election to claim as mandate, can do untold damage to our system all only to enrich his cronies. i'd say vote for whichever dem wins the nomination and take your chances. you can't do worse than this puppet who will go down in history as the worst and most corrupt president in our history, all the while claiming to be more "moral" than his predecessor.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 03:47 PM

I don't think a true conservative Republican would need any help from liberals to determine why he/she should vote one way or the other. Listen to the facts and make up your own mind. You really have little choice anyway because it's going to be vote for Bush or vote for whoever the Democrats put up against him. Seems to me you have already made your choice.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 03:55 PM

I would vote for him if it was inevitable that he was outrunning Dr Dean. As for why, I believe he has integrity. You do have a third choice of course -- which is not to vote or to write in some third party.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 03:58 PM

Cruiser, I think you find yourself in that unfortunate position that many voters do these days: Your choice has to be made on the basis of who you least want in the White House, and that would appear to be Bush.

I have voted Republican in the past. This last time, I voted for Gore, not because I was so enthralled by him, but because Bush was obviously less qualified to hold the office and he had a lot of really weird ideas--and friends. After having seen Bush in action and more than confirmed my antipathy toward him, my concern is less who to vote for than who to vote against. I will cast my vote for whoever I feel has the best chance of defeating Bush. In short, whoever I vote for, I will be voting against Bush.

This is unfortunate. In fact, it's kind of disgusting. But that seems to be the political reality this country faces.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 04:09 PM

I am thrilled to reads this thread as this mirrors my thoughts very well.   I may not have the exact list that you have cruiser, but it is very very close. I also would like to see a man that can help mend a lot of fences that Mr. Bush has managed to totally screw up, largely with our European allies. I would really like to support a candidate that would move the country to the middle. I dislike the far right even more than I do the far left.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 04:14 PM

Cruiser, I really appreciate your stating your beliefs and your stand on a number of issues so clearly. That, in my experience, is a rare thing for a conservative to do. I don't agree with many of them but your views are at least as valid as mine. (In my heart of hearts, I of course don't believe that- or I wouldn't believe what I believe!)

I'd like to say though that if not having a 'flawed character' is a criterion for your support, you're just not going to find a person like that. The saying that everyone is a little bit crazy on at least one issue I suspect refers to the absolute fact that each of us is flawed. Churchill; Gandhi; Martin Luther King; (not to mention Martin Luther, a seriously flawed man; and, no doubt, even Mother Teresa. We all have our flaws and our tragedies. It seems to me that extraordinary abilities often go hand in hand with equal frailties. The best we can hope for is that the person's abilities will mesh with his or her aspirations and responsibilies.

If we but knew, we'd find that to be true of EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO EVER LIVED. Regardless, every one of us can be - and often is- of remarkable inspiration and efficacy in our lives and in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 04:20 PM

DougR I want all sides of each issue, liberal, conservative, middle of the road, independent, or any other label we attach to politics. I believe you are a true conservative, but would you vote for a Republican that was at odds with your values just because of his political persuasion?

As you know, critical thinking forces one to look at all issues even those that might be diametrically opposed to your core views and biases. That is not an easy process to go through and takes more self-searching than most of us have time in this busy life. That is what I am trying to do here, because my best guess is this Mudcat forum is a bit skewed toward the liberal side. I don't need to go to a conservative site because I would only see many of my views reinforced.

I have not made up my mind except I will not vote for Mr. Bush. My intuition tells me he will probably win the election unless there are Republicans that are willing to vote against him.

I welcome your insight regarding why you would not vote for Kerry.


The other views expressed by others here are appreciated and helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 04:23 PM

Probably one of the least flawed presidents in my lifetime was Jimmy Carter. When he was elected (yes I did vote for him) I was so thrilled. When he walked down Pennsylvania Ave. during his inaugeral parade, I thought, "wow, here is a common man." I thought it was going to be the greatest ever for our country. Unfortunately, he was not as effective as I had hoped, possibly because he was not flawed enough to play the Washington games. I am not sure what all the problems were, but I was disappointed. He has been, however, a great ex president, and I think he is a good man.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 04:47 PM

A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman thinks of the next generation. I would have little fear of a true statesman of either party. But true statesmen seem to be in very short supply within recent years.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 04:57 PM

Ebbie:

I agree we are all flawed. I edited out a line about that in my first post because I thought I was philosophizing too much. A colleague of mine once said "it is hard to be perfect in an imperfect world" when I was dealing with an unethical issue involving another colleague. I just expect persons in high office to be "better" than me. I often wonder why all the good, ethical, honest, hard working, decent people I have known in life are not in political positions. Some of my college professors were outstanding and there are many fine people in all walks of life that I would look up to and admire as political leaders.

An honest, ethical person will have my support regardless of party affiliation.


jimmyt:

I agree about Carter. I was changing oil in one of my windmills when my grandmother hollered that Carter had won. Although a registered Republican, I was pleased to hear he won. He is a very decent, honest, educated man who was not an effective President. Is this another paradoxical problem of politics? If you don't play the games (sometimes unethical) history records you as an ineffective politician.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 05:03 PM

Don Firth:

That is a good distinction between a politician and a statesman. Is there a true statesman in the current Democratic field or one that comes close to that mark?

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: nosluap57
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 05:34 PM

Great thread! Having voted for Bush three times in the past (twice for Texas governor), I too would dearly love to see a moderate democrat emerge as the nominee. Glad to see Dean derailed, glad to see Gephardt drop out.

I would vote for a democrat who would not repeal any of the Bush tax cuts. I could vote for a democrat who would roll back the tax cuts as long as he took a position to penalize corporations severly enough to deter them from outsourcing tech jobs overseas.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 05:59 PM

In past years I have voted Republican, Democratic and Independent. I have not been happy with George W. Bush as President. IMO, he has violated his responsibility to represent the people of this great land. He has lied to everyone, alienated our friends, brought unity to our enemies, and created such a huge deficit that our children and grandchildren will suffer from this presidency long into the forseeable future. I do not like the 2 party system that we have, but it is the system we must work under until it changes. I do not like the Electoral College system which will award all of Alaska's votes to GWB even though there are many of us that will vote against it. (Alaska has been in the Republican's pocket for many decades.) I will vote for whichever Democrat is finally nominated for the office, because that seems to be the only way we can retrieve what's left of our country from the clutches of the special interests. I do not know if this is the right thing to do, but I will do it even though my vote won't count.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 06:11 PM

your vote is "counted", Mike...if everyone votes his conscience, we will at least know how MANY didn't want Bush...(last time it was more than 50%!)

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: LadyJean
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 12:45 AM

You may want to reconsider Governor Dean. Check out his web site, and find out what he really says. (He's gotten a very bad press, lately.) There is a Republicans for Dean web site, you might want to check that out too.
Dean is a banty rooster, he's a fighter. That's what I like about him. He won't back down the way Clinton did. Kerry supported the Patriot Act. That's enough to make me mistrust him. Clark has had no real experience in government. It has been said that his main motive in running is to tell Bush&Company what he thinks of them. A fine thing to do, but not the best reccomendation.
I'm voting Democratic this November no matter WHO gets the nomination. Bush is a disaster. Almost anyone would be better.
Oh! I've heard that that judge in Mississippi, the one who put up a Ten Commandments monument in his court house is thinking of running for president. I am, of course hoping for it. He would take votes away from Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 01:04 AM

LadyJean,

I will visit the Republicans for Dean web site. Thanks.

Dean's demeanor is an issue with me. I know he is under stress during the campaign, but some of his actions are distinctly not presidential.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 01:12 AM

I utterly agree with Cruiser's comments about Dean in the post previous to this one. I have a strong intuitive feeling that Dean would be a loose cannon in the presidency.

Would you please explain the Electoral College, and how your vote wouldn't count? I don't understand that at all. If you don't have time, I'll research it on my own.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 02:32 AM

There's an official explanation of the Electoral College but, to me, the way it shakes down is that there are effectively two different elections being held.

One is the one vote, one person election- the people's voice. This is the one that Gore won in 2000. The people's favorite usually is the same as that of the electoral college.

However, there are and have been exceptions.

The Electoral College consists of the states' votes. Each state has two senate votes and x number of representative votes, depending on the population in that state. For instance, Alaska is a big state physically but is very lightly populated, so we have two senators as everyone does but just one representative, which makes us a non-interesting state to campaigning candidates. On the other hand, California, New York, Florida, Illinois, among others, are densely populated states and they are of vital importance. The winning candidate has to garner at least one vote more than half of the electoral votes.

The electoral college is not voted on by the people; instead the states's voters vote for a slate of delegates, and that becomes the Electoral College. The delegates will attend the election night activities and the delegates are the ones who are allowed to abandon the candidate in whose name they were sent in order to throw their votes to a perceived winner. That frequently happens, but usually not until a second or third vote when the deals start being struck.

In 2000, the difficulty was that the electoral college was dependent on the outcome of a very close race. The people's vote was for Gore, but Florida's corrupted political process and its outdated hardware kept the numbers from being known.

In a normal election Florida's problems would probably have been scarcely noticed because previously it wasn't crucial to the election.

I'm sure I have greatly over-simplified the process, and am just plain wrong on a number of things but to me, that's how it shakes down.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Bo Vandenberg
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 04:43 AM

Cruiser: I'm really curious about why you think NAFTA is a failure.

Here in Canada many of us think the same thing because it is really taking power away from our government and giving it to Corporations. What do you think are the American views against it?

S

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 05:36 AM

Cruiser, I was a Dean supporter and a contributor in the beginning. However, the cracks began to show, and when he lost it with that republican shill who heckled him, that told me he is not the man for the job.
Edwards would be my first choice, but he lacks experience. Kerry has a REAL military record; he didn't dodge the draft and join the national guard, then go AWOL for a year.
I did not watch the state of the union address because the very sight and sound of this lying phony is more than I can stand.
My party will caucus next month, and I will be in Kerry's corner. I'm convinced he is the only one who can beat Bush. Hell, all he has to do is compare his military record with the Shrub's!

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 08:00 AM

Kerry is a weasel who, in voting for both the Patriot [sic] Act and the invasion of Iraq shows that despite his previous stance on Viet Nam he didn't really learn a great deal from the experience. Too large a measure of the Vicar of Bray in the man.

That said, should he end up the Democrat nominee, I'll hold my nose and vote for the weasel. The country cannot stand another 4 years of the BuShites.

Anyone But Bush!

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Alice
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 09:10 AM

Cruiser, there is a web site where you select the answers to issues that most agree with your answers and then it gives you a list of candidates, Democratic and Republican, that agree with you in descending order, agreeing most to least. After that, you have to judge their character, intelligence, etc., to make a choice.

http://www.selectsmart.com/PRESIDENT/

Dean is a fiscal conservative, is adamant about balanced budgets, also about prevention - prevention of crime and poverty by helping children from birth onward to be in stable homes and prepared for school. His programs in Vermont reduced child abuse and molestation drastically and Vermont now as the lowest teen pregnancy rate in the country. His approach is to prevent costs from increasing (prison/crime costs, environmental costs, welfare costs) as well as balancing budgets. His programs after 5 terms of governor have proven that they work. See this site regarding a foundation he created before he became a presidential candidate:
Fund for A Healthy America
http://www.fundforahealthyamerica.com/HowardDean.asp



Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 01:26 PM

Edwards is fresh and clean

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Alice
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 02:54 PM

After you use selectsmart.com to compare your views with the politicians, I'd be interested in seeing how your beliefs line up with what the candidates profess to believe.

alice

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 03:58 PM

Is there a true statesman in the current Democratic field or one that comes close to that mark?

I really don't know, Cruiser. All too often, one can't identify the true statesman until after they've had their chance, and sometimes not until a long time after.

I would regard Franklin D. Roosevelt as a true statesman. He had particularly vociferous enemies at the time (still does, for that matter), but he had the intelligence to see both the problem and the solution, and the force of personality and the persuasive ability to get the citizenry behind him. He explained in plain terms (in his "Fireside Chats" every week) exactly what he was doing and why he was doing it. It made sense to people, he did what he said he would do, and it worked. Despite the fact that his solutions were exceedingly unpopular with special interests, and despite powerful opposition, he implemented the measures necessary to end the Depression and put people back to work. The prosperity of the Fifties had less to do with the aftermath of World War II than it did with laws that Roosevelt managed to get passed. His primary goal was to work for the good of all the people, not just special interests. ("Great God A'mighty, gonna need 'im again!")

Lots of people of both parties hated Harry Truman at the time, but history is beginning to examine him in a new light and it turns out that he was a lot better than people thought at the time. For example, he integrated the Armed Forces, not by dickering and debating with the Chiefs of Staff (as Clinton tried to do, and lost, on the gays in the military issue) simply by walking in, issuing an executive order (he was the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, after all), then turning on his heel and walking out. You may not have liked him, but you sure as hell knew where he stood!

Dwight D. Eisenhower had many characteristics of a statesman. He was perfectly willing to take an unpopular stand if he sincerely believed he was right. And although it was not in the interests of some of his supporters, he went ahead and tried to warn the country about the dangers of the military-industrial complex. These were truly prophetic words, and today we are reaping the bitter harvest of failing to sufficiently heed Eisenhower's warning.

John F. Kennedy got off to a pretty good start, but his life was cut short. He, too, had the intelligence and the charisma, and he showed strong evidence that his interest, too, was the good of the whole country. There are those who claim that he would have been one of the greatest presidents ever, but there are also those who claim that if given a few more years, his inadequacies would have become obvious. We'll never really know.

Lyndon Johnson? Some very good things, but some really bad things as well. Johnson was deeply flawed. Politician more than statesman.

Nixon? Ford? No.

I think Jimmy Carter, with his genuine honesty, sincerity, and concern, could have been a true statesman, but somehow he was never given the chance. I think he had the intelligence and the genuine concern for the good of the country, but perhaps lacked the force of personality.

There are those who regard Ronald Reagan as a statesman, but mainly what I saw Reagan doing was intentionally undoing much of the work of FDR, who put restrictions on the powerful special interests that got the country into the Depression in the first place. Reagan unleashed the Dogs of Greed and set the stage for George W. Bush and his extreme right-wing friends. Reagan's concern was not for the citizenry; he was concerned for the multinational corporations, and his administration also had a rather disturbing fundamentalist religious overtone—as does the Bush administration. They called Reagan the "Great Communicator," but I sure couldn't see it. An analysis of his speeches reveals that he spoke in strings of platitudes, bumper-stickers, and T-shirt messages without saying anything of substance. All frosting, no cake. Highly effective politician, but statesman? Absolutely not!

Bush Senior? Clinton? No way!

The problem is that one seems to be able to identify a true statesman only in retrospect. But—there are certain marks that may identify a politician who has the potential of being a statesman. Does the he or she genuinely seem to have the good of the people as a whole as a paramount goal? A bit hard to tell, because they all try to sound like they do. Listen to what they say. Then watch what they do. Personal integrity demands that they be consistent. Truth demands that they be consistent.

One possible test: when push comes to shove, will they take an unpopular stand on a matter of principle?   You can often tell a great deal about the character of a person by looking at the enemies he or she makes. Another clue: do they learn? Are they willing to change their minds? Kerry won a few points with me when challenged on voting in favor of the Patriot Act, by saying, without weaseling or equivocation, "I was wrong." He didn't just dig in his heels and try to defend it. Not that I'm necessarily recommending Kerry at this point, but I am watching him.

I don't know, Cruiser. I wish I did. I can't say that I'm greatly impressed with the current lot, but even the least of them I like far better than George W. Bush. Any one of them could emerge as a genuine statesman. Lieberman is probably the most conservative. Kucinich is probably the most progressive. As I keep saying, I will be working for and voting for whichever candidate emerges from the Democratic Convention. The main idea is that any one of them will be better for the health of the country and of the world than George W. Bush.

We've tried Bush, and he has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the potential for statesmanship is not in him. Time to try someone else, before Bush and his friends finish turning this country to the neo-feudal state they seem to want.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 04:10 PM

Thanks for the explanation of the Electoral College, Ebbie. As I understand it, the people get to vote on the candidate that shakes down via the representatives' choice at the convention, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 04:32 PM

Thanks for the comments and links.
I will respond later, my job calls.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 04:36 PM

Yeh. It's not a really classy process but it often works in spite of itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 05:11 PM

Cruiser, Kerry is in many ways an old-fashioned style liberal. And I mean "liberal," not "progressive." He's quite a bit to the left of Dean, who isn't very leftie at all. Kerry may not be your kind of candidate, despite his admirable service record. In truth, Clark probably seems the best fit for you, at least from what you've said here.

Although among major candidates my views most closely align with Dean, I've said from the beginning that I smell a rat in Dean. He talks a good game, but his views frequently change depending on what he thinks his current listener wants to hear, and while lambasting Bush for $2000 a plate fundraising dinners in order to raise $50 pledges on the internet, that hasn't stopped Dean from having plenty of his own $2000 dinners. There may be nothing wrong with that, but I think there is something wrong with being a hypocrite about it. I find Dean deeply disappoints me.

Yes, yes, I know Alice. You think he's sliced bread. I don't :)

I'd still vote for him (or any other yeller dog except Lieberman) instead of Bush without thinking twice about it, but Kucinich will be getting my vote in the primary. Even in the unlikely scenario that Kucinich won the nomination and the election, he might turn out to be another Carter. But hey, the world needs more Jimmy Carters anyway, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 06:27 PM

The practical effects of the electoral college system, pdc, is that if I vote for the Democratic contender but more than 50% of the voters in Alaska vote for the Republican, then all 3 of our electoral votes will go to Bush. So even though I cast my vote one way, unless I am in the majority, the electoral votes will go to someone I did not vote for. That is why I stated that my vote won't count. For this reason, the Electoral system should be abolished.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 06:43 PM

I agree with AlaskaMike. Supposedly, the EC was instituted to give the small states an equal voice- but I don't see that it works that way.

Mike, are you for RunOff voting? I was, tentatively, then I read of the many complications that are attached to that so I gave it up.

You know, we are in a very different situation nowadsys from when the constitution was created. Back in those days, a president could be elected for three WEEKS before the farflung populace knew it. Today, thanks to exit polling we are told the winner BEFORE he is elected.

It just seems like we could re-shape things to fit modern times. I still have a lot of hope for the computer age- for instance, it should never happen these days that a mechanic newly enlisted in the army should be made a camp cook- but we are not making much use of it in many important ways. Ah, well, the age is still in its infancy.

Don't get me wrong- I don't want touch-screen voting - or at least not until a paper trail is fixed and mandatory.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 07:15 PM

Yo, Cruiser,

Jus' hold yer danged nose and do it...

I didn't like Clinton one danged bit and voted Green. I supported Nadar in 2000 and consider myself a Greenie but, probably fir different reasons, I'll not only vote, but work fir the Dem, in the coming election.

And Bush isn't exactly a conservative. He throws the conservatives a few bones (gay marriages, abortions, etc.) but other than that he is one flaming liberal...

Makes me think of myself as a conservative.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 08:25 PM

"My intuition tells me [Bush] will probably win the election unless there are Republicans that are willing to vote against him."

Very true. Here's the thing: 45% of voters will vote Republican, no matter what. 45% will vote Democrat, no matter what. It's the remaining 10% that's crucial. Bush has alienated many true conservatives, and the hope to defeat him lies with folks like Cruiser. We must establish a dialogue with that 10% and do whatever we can, between now and November, to help them decide that Bush and his criminal cronies are bad for America.

The problem with the voting public is that any candidate must appear "presidential", meaning serious, respectable and level-headed, and at the same time come across as down-to-earth and charming. Not an easy thing to pull off. Plus it helps if he's attractive.

The Democratic choices are not so great, obviously. The biggest problem with Kerry is that he's a New England patrician, just like Bush Sr and Jr (no, they're not Texans), and a member of the same Skull & Bones secret society. And he's ugly.

Dean, of course, is not at all "presidential" (witness his little scream-fest after Iowa). Neither are Kucinich or Sharpton. And they're all ugly.

Lieberman might be able to fake "presidential", but not down-to-earth or charming. And he's ugly.

Edwards has good looks, and charm in spades (practiced in many courtroom appearances, no doubt), but is too young to be convincingly "presidential". And as a lawyer, he has a credibility problem.

It appears to me that Clark's public persona is best suited to the task of defeating Bush. He has military cred, is reasonably good-looking, smart and funny, and should be able to easily out-debate Bush. Of course we don't yet know where he stands on many issues, and he already switched part affiliation once, but hey, you can't have everything.

I believe Clark is the man most likely to have a chance of winning against Bush.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST,LDB
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 09:11 PM

Forget about voting for the PERSON for president, and look only at the PARTY. Then make sure the party you choose is opposite of the party in power in congress. That way nothing gets done which is the best thing that can happen given the sorry-ass bunch of politicians around today.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST,Johnny in OKC
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 10:08 PM

Cruiser, you are a conservative. GWB (I can't bring myself to call him President either) is not a conservative. A Trillion dollar deficit? -- you can't call that conservative.

So just tell your friends you're a Conservative Democrat, and vote democrat. What's the problem?

If it's not too late to do so in your state, register democrat. If you like Kerry, vote for Kerry. He may be Skull & Bones, but at least he can pronounce "nuclear".

I'm still for Howard Dean. So what, if he gets excited? If you want "reserved", you could wind up with someone like that model of propriety, Martin Van Buren, now universally recognized as our most forgettable president.

Regarding the Electoral College ... I believe some states divide their electoral votes in proportion to the people's vote, and other states are "winner take all". Someone please correct me if I'm wrong!   

I wish they would do away with winner-take-all. It might have made the difference in the 2000 election.

Thanks, Cruiser, for your excellent post!
JOHNNY in OKC

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Peg
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 10:41 AM

hey, that's a good idea for a drinking game; drink every time the Shrub says "nucular" during the SOTU...and maybe throw in his overuse of "the American people" so you can be feeling no (or at least less) pain by the end...

Whatever happened to Bill Bradley???

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 22 Jan 04 - 01:00 PM

The only draw back I see to Lieberman, aside from a pretty good "conservative" voting record, is his religion. Normally I wouldn't give a rats ass about it but with all of the trouble right now in the middle east, he hasn't got an iota of crecibility with the leaders of that area. They already think we are in Israel's back pocket. His election would only confirm it to them and then the whole process breaks down. Great man, wrong time!

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 02:10 AM

Alice:

I visited the SelectSmart.com site.

All my percentages were in the 50's except for Clark at 36% and Bush at 34%.

Dean was 53%, Edwards 52% Kerry 51% (tied with the Green Party and Lieberman) The big surprise was Gephardt at 57%.

"If your top score is in the 50's, your top candidate is the "lesser of evils"

This is just one step in a long thought-provoking process.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Alice
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 02:45 PM

You are welcome.
alice

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 02:57 PM

Cruiser: no I would not vote for a Republican if he/she did not represent my core values.

I would encourage you to vote for Howard Dean.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 05:03 PM

Cruiser, unless you are going to a Democratic caucus or voting as a Democrat in a primary, picking a candidate out of the current field of Democrats is fairly academic at this point. We will actually get to vote for only one of them, and he (or perhaps a "dark-horse" she) will be selected at the Democratic Convention. In the meantime, watch, listen, learn, think.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 05:27 PM

Johnny on OKC:

No states split electotrial votes. I like your idea, also about pro-rating delagates. I would seem to be more domocratic and something that given the 1876 and 2000 elections would probably meet with approval from the Founding Fathers.

Now, I hate to thread creep but the Dems are gonna need at least 53% of the vote to balance the "undervote" which tend to favor the Repubs and the corruption that the Repubs have inflicted on the elections (see Greg Palist's "Best Democracy Money Can Buy" for starters...)

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 06:20 PM

Don: You are right, just academic. Discussions like this might get Democrats to consider pulling together behind one candidate so he could win the election against Mr. Bush.

DougR: I think I possibly could vote for Kerry if he is on the Democratic ticket, but probably not for Dean. I may not vote at all, which would be hard for me to do.

Anyway, I enjoyed the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 08:24 PM

If Kerry is the nominee, I will hold my nose and vote for him. I will vote for whoever stands the best chance of "de-lousing" the White House.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 08:26 PM

.....Even though my Electoral College votes will all go to the Shrub.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Alice
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 08:48 PM

People are forgetting the Super Delegates in the Democratic convention that will affect the choice of the Democrat who will run against Bush.
Here is a bit about Super Delegates.

http://www.poliblogger.com/poliblog/archives/002024.html

Democratic Party has a system (via the "Super-Delegate"
   system), where 40% of the delegates to the convention are party elites...

The Democratic super-delegates are the party's elected
         elite: all 278 Democratic governors and members of
         Congress, as well as "distinguished party leaders" such
         as former President Clinton, former Vice President Al
         Gore, and former Senate Majority Leader George
         Mitchell.

         The super-delegates also include party operatives such
         as the chairmen of each state party and the heads of
         groups such as the National Conference of Democratic
         Mayors.

         Also given "super" status are the 425 members of the
         Democratic National Committee. DNC members are
         allotted on the basis of the population of each state and
         its Democratic vote in presidential elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Sam L
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 12:47 AM

Cruiser, I'm an old fashioned liberal, but I'd vote for any qualified conservative over Bush.

I'm not much of a butt-sniffer of candidates. Bush seems to me very much the same public person as before he was elected. I wouldn't care to know the president personally, only as a consistent, principled public figure. It drives me crazy the way we look for character clues even after we have clear public records, but I suppose it's just more fun.
I wish you'd reconsider your feelings about the death penalty. The jury system just isn't accurate. It isn't designed to be perfectly accurate--it's designed to prevent the government from rigging it--a good conservative value at work, and we should be willing to pay for it. If there were some separate standard of absolute proof, I'd be fine with the death penalty, as you put it.

I was against the war until it happened, but once there, it would be horrible not to go the distance, I think. An awful waste of lives and effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST,kkb
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 06:15 AM

read "Blinded by the Right" by Dave Brock
he used to write for the Washington Post

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 08:42 AM

I was against the war until it happened, but once there,
it would be horrible not to go the distance, I think.

This seems perilously close- if not identical- to the thinking that produced the Wall in Washington with 58,000+ names on it.

Those that do not learn from history &c.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 09:52 AM

Yeah, and there were a lot of Germans who decided to "go the distance" in the '40's too. What good did it do them? Just because you have already started a war is no particular justification for carrying it on...but politicians and generals, like other people, are very loathe to admit to having made a mistake. The worse the mistake is, the more they will deny and prevaricate.



Cruiser - you mentioned in your original post..."Illegal drugs should never be legalized". What I am wondering is, does this mean you believe that alcoholic beverages should STILL be illegal, as they were during Prohibition? Or that coffee and tea should still be illegal, as they were at one time in respectable English society? What I am suggesting is that society arbitrarily decides what is permissible and not permissible at any given time. That decision is usually based on rumour, prejudice, and changing religious and social notions...rather than on reality or practicality. Alcohol has destroyed more lives than all the other drugs put together (with the possible exception of tobacco), but both alcohol and tobacco are legal, simply because so many people are accustomed to using them, and so many vested interests are tied up in producing them. Any attempt to make either of them illegal would result in an explosion of organized crime that would make the present "drug wars" look like a tea party...because people WILL have their favorite drug of choice regardless of whether it's legal or not! And I mean respectable, conventional, normally law-abiding people. So what do you think of that? Why do you consider a very minor and innocuous drug (like marijuana) to be such a threat that it must be forever kept illegal? I suggest that you do that not because marijuana is in fact dangerous (it isn't) but because it simply exists outside the comfort zone of conventional society that you are used to...and therefore it can easily be deemed "taboo" from the perspective of a cultural majority who are fairly unfamiliar with it in the first place.

Making such drugs illegal only provides criminals, large and small, with a lucrative market to exploit...and cops, prisons, and judges with lots of meaningless work to do running around busting people over something that doesn't matter in the first place.

I say this as someone who does NOT choose to smoke marijuana or anything else either. I don't have the right to deny another adult human being their own free decision whether or not to privately indulge in the use of a drug. That's their business, not mine.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 05:58 PM

Cruiser,

Here is something that no one has mentioned that has some merit. If you don't see yourself as voting for any of the Democrats and you don't like Bushrove, then don't vote for anyone as president. Vote for your senators and reps and other officials.

I'll probably get flamed for this, but I probably won't visit this thread again.

In Cherokee culture, an abstention is just as valued as a yay or nay as tribal council works on the rule of concensus.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 04 - 09:29 PM

However, the government of the U.S. of A. does not.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

sorry, couldn't resist...

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 12:07 AM

Little Hawk,

Firstly, I enjoy your posts because they are mostly thought out and reasonable (except for some of the obvious humorous tongue in cheek BS posts, and those are often witty).

I just don't understand why anyone, especially an adult, needs any form of illegal drug to enjoy the bountiful wonders of life. I also don't understand tobacco or alcohol use, although I used both until my second year of college. I am embarrassed to admit that I used either. I have often thought: How could I have been so stupid? I avoided illegal drugs partly because I spent my time doing farm labor to help pay for college and rodeoing for fun. I did not hang out with the drug group (just the hard drinkin', Red Man & Day's Work plug tobacco chewin'/spittin', Camel cigarette smoking, cowboys; and some goat ropers!). I was offered illegal drugs and they were all around me in high school and college in the 60s & 70's, but my conscience said no way would I harm my body and mind with that junk (I chose the other junk listed above instead). I realized at about 21 years old that I did not need any of these substances. I guess I was lucky, I did my "stupid stuff" when I was younger.

If I were "King of the World" I would get rid of all the tobacco, alcohol, and illegal drugs. I realize that is simplistic and prohibition would not work. Marijuana has harmful components in addition to the smoke. I know there is evidence of medicinal qualities of marijuana and any prescribed drug has potential bad side effects. Many helpful drugs are derived from plants and if marijuana is used for medicinal purposes, under the care of a licensed physician, then I could not argue with that.

All mind altering illegal drugs cause too many societal problems, as does the abuse of the legal drugs you mentioned.      

Once more, I just do not understand why anyone needs to alter their mind, for pleasure, with any drug, legal or illegal.   I do not have the time or desire to go through this brief life in any form of stupor. I also do not want any person using any of the aforementioned drugs ruining my chance at life or anyone else's. The societal costs are just too high to allow use of illegal drugs. All legal and illegal psychoactive drugs (any substances that affect mood, perception and thought) can have harmful effects if abused, but the detrimental results of allowing use of any of the current illegal drugs, including marijuana, is too great a risk to take.

Now when I wake up in my 40 degree room in the morning, two of the first things I am going to consume are a cup of hot chocolate and a cup of hot green tea. Both contain "drugs": L-theanine and caffeine in tea and caffeine and other substances in chocolate. I once did not drink tea because of the caffeine it contained, I considered that stimulate too strong a drug. There is evidence that the chemicals in tea provide strong antiviral and antibacterial properties as well as acting as an antioxidant. I could use decaf tea, but I have found (and research confirms) that caffeine helps enhance physical activities, such as running. I can justify 40 to 80 mg of caffeine daily and this should in no way compare to the mind altering effects of alcohol, marijuana or illegal drugs. I am sure there are some that would say a drug is a drug and a person can justify the use of his preferred drug, just as you might say I am doing with tea. However, the definition of a drug is a difficult one. For example, is food a drug?

I agree Little Hawk, the determination of what is legal or not is sometimes based on many biases, prejudices, etc., but the fact I see is the overwhelming evidence that illegal drugs cause too much harm to society. Legal, open, marijuana use would only add to this.

I would reiterate: illegal drugs should never be legalized. The ills that they would cause to society are not worth the freedom of allowing their use.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 12:23 PM

All well and good, except for the fact that there's no evidence that legalizing drugs would make the costs or harm to society any worse than they are at present. In fact, most of the evidence points the other way.

Then there's the savings- in the billions of dollars- currently squandered on the useless "War [sic] On Drugs" that could be applied to something that would actually produce positive results for society- like treatment and rehab.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: NicoleC
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 12:48 PM

Once more, I just do not understand why anyone needs to alter their mind, for pleasure, with any drug, legal or illegal... The societal costs are just too high to allow use of illegal drugs. All legal and illegal psychoactive drugs (any substances that affect mood, perception and thought) can have harmful effects if abused, but the detrimental results of allowing use of any of the current illegal drugs, including marijuana, is too great a risk to take.

You can't define "bad" substances by their state of legality or not.

We had better ban chocolate and sugar, because it might make someone happy. I could make a far stronger arguement for the ill effects of sugar on society than pot.

Sugar, potatoes and other starchy foods stimulate a seratonin response in the body -- seratonin is a "happy hormone" mimicked by most anti-depressive medications. Oh my, they'll have to go, too.

Oxygen bottles? Gone! They can make you energetic and high.

Get rid of all those highlighters and every adhesive, because someone might sniff it.

Herbs, spices and seasonings -- all gone. All produce medicinal effects to some degree, therefore they have dangerous side effects and should be banned from use in food.

Gambling produces an excited hormonal response in the brain, as does all manner of sports. Skiing, football, rock climbing, bungee jumping... all gotta go.

Working out with weights -- gotta go. Affects the hormones. So does running and other prolonged physical activity.

TV programs will have to be carefully monitored not to show anything that might alter a persons mood. No tear jerker chick flicks, no adreneline pumping action films.

If we made all of the above illegal for the same reasons pot is illegal, would you then argue that because they were illegal they were too dangerous?

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 01:56 PM

Ha! Amusing stuff, Nicole...

Cruiser, that was a well-reasoned response, and I understand your position perfectly. Sounds like you feel about the same regarding drugs as I do. I spent the 70's surrounded by people who indulged in pot, hash, etc on a casual or frequent basis...had the long hair and the look...was a musician...and didn't indulge. They thought I was a bit odd. It's because pot is such a mild, innocuous drug that I object to it being illegal, because that results in essentially harmless people getting in trouble with the law unnecessarily, and it ties up a lot of police officers in what I regard as unproductive work.

Here's what I would do regarding pot if I were "king of the world", as you say:

1. I would make it perfectly legal to grow the stuff...privately...and smoke it...privately. That would immediately remove it from being a criminal issue, and would take it out of the hands of organized crime.

2. I would make it absolutely illegal to SELL it through any storefront or advertisment or official commercial operation...or under any advertised brandname...or in any package except a plain old unmarked baggy or paper bag. That would take it out of the hands of big business, whose attitude toward any and all legal drugs is: "How can we glamorize this drug and get as many people as possible hooked on it through aggressive advertising and fancy packaging."

3. I would not prosecute people for growing and smoking their own or sharing it privately with friends or selling a small, limited quantity of it...as they might do with some tomatoes they grew in their garden, for example. That's their business.

Now, my feeling is that under such a legal system the very same people would end up smoking pot who already do...although some might actually not bother, because it wouldn't have the allure of being "forbidden" any longer. Forbidden things are very attractive to rebellious teenagers.

Cops, on the other hand, would have a lot more time to deal with stuff that really matters.

And the power to decide would be in the hands of ordinary people, where it should be, instead of in the hands of criminals and cops.

I think this would work far better than making it illegal has. I still know many, many people who smoke pot now and then...and not one of them is any danger to society. They should be left alone.

However, my basic feeling about the drug is the same as yours. I don't get why people think they need something like that in their lives. But the fact is...they think they do. And they will continue to, regardless of laws that don't work.

How can it be illegal to grow and harvest a naturally occuring plant? The very idea is ridiculous. If I could, I would make 100 trillion marijuana plants sprout up everywhere in North America just to show how ridiculous an idea it is...it would be too much to deal with, the price of pot would hit rock bottom (a penny a pound), the cops would give up trying to do anything about it, and people would find something else to get worked up about. They'd probably even get bored with the whole idea of pot and stop smoking it. :-) A far more useful purpose for that plant is to make a very strong fabric.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 05:40 PM

Greg F: Your argument brings to mind what is happening in Sweden and Australia:
{Quote}
The comparative figures for drug use in Sweden and Australia, taken in conjunction with education policies which promote abstinence versus safe usage, suggest that Australia's policy of harm minimisation has induced widespread drug usage - 52% lifetime usage (i.e., used at least once) in Australia compared with 9% in Sweden.
{End Quote}

Sweden vs. Australia : Drug Policies


NicoleC: I mentioned the problem of defining a drug and you chose a broad definition. You are a pretty, bright, young lady. You should gain pleasure from your intellect and the joys of playing your fiddle (although learning that instrument can lead to some "drug" use if one would let it).

Little Hawk: My concern is introducing cannibus to youngsters just as I tried beer, wine, and whiskey, because they were common and readily available and I was young and curious. I even smoked grapevine as a kid and other than making me cough and turn green, it had no mind altering result like marijuana would. Abstinence from illegal drug use is the only option, in my opinion.

In this competitive world, any drug that takes ones mind to a state of unreality does not help one to succeed in helping with, or functioning in, society.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 06:36 PM

"...just as I tried beer, wine, and whiskey, because they were common and readily available and I was young and curious. I even smoked grapevine as a kid and other than making me cough and turn green, it had no mind altering result like marijuana would. Abstinence from illegal drug use is the only option, in my opinion."

here's the thing i don't understand about your position. you admit that you used such substances. you tried it, made your choice and seem happy with your choice. why such a self-rightous attitude, then, towards other people making their own choices about such things? abstinance is not "the only option". it's the option YOU chose. you remind me of the reformed drunks and smokers who had their chance to use their substances and now that they've "seen the light" they think no one else should have that opportunity. it's none of your bizness or the government's what i or anyone else chooses to ingest just like when you sowed your oats and made your choices in spite of the legality of said oats. others have made all the points about the crime, amounts of funds wasted and questionable moral foundation of the useless "war on drugs" but i just want to know what makes you think you should be the judge of everyone else in light of your admitted indiscretions?

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 08:51 PM

guest from NW:

All I can say is I am conservative on this issue and you have a more liberal view. I do not think either of us are going to change our stance.

Thanks for your comments NW.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: NicoleC
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 09:08 PM

Guest from NW is quite right, if rather rude about it. It's awfully condescending to believe that you were and are capable of a choice but no one else is.

And if you are insinuating that you believe that I take illegal drugs, you'd be incorrect. But like you, I did sow some oats. It was a passing phase and I derived little pleasure from it, so I didn't continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 09:21 PM

I would like to go back to the original premise of this thread: My quest to learn more about John Kerry and could I find enough reasons to vote for Kerry to help vote Mr. Bush out of office.

Does anyone know Kerry's stance on:

Illegal drug issues

Gay marriage

Amnesty for illegal immigrants

Separation of church and state

Death penalty

Balancing the federal budget

Outsourcing US jobs overseas

NAFTA

I know I could find some of the answers on his web site, but I value opinions and insights that I may get from members here.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 09:29 PM

NicoleC,

No insinuations, and certainly no derogatory suggestions, were intended ma'am.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 09:38 PM

Cruiser-

The News Weekly and the Australian "National Civic Council" which publishes it make no secret of their political agenda, which renders their article and the "facts" it purports to report somewhat suspect, to say the least. Kind of like Fox's Fact-Free News.

Its the old, old case of lies, damned lies, and statistics. Plus you, and they, are (willfully?) confusing correlation with causation.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 09:44 PM

Thanks for your point of view Greg F.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 01:12 AM

"All I can say is I am conservative on this issue and you have a more liberal view."

i must disagree. i think my stance is the conservative stance because i believe in freedom of choice and freedom from illegal search and seizure and freedom from harassment and the freedom of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in ways that interest me and harm no one else. all things provided for in our constitution and declaration of independance which i believe in conserving.
and back to your original point, the current administration is as far as possible from any "conserative" principles. no matter what kerry believes on your pet issues, if you care about the country you live in and keeping any semblance of constitutional government, you'd better do your part to vote these goons out.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Alice
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 09:42 AM

You know, Dean's demeanor is as presidential as Teddy Roosevelt's. I think it is sad that someone who shows he is a real human being instead of a carboard cutout behind a microphone is criticized for being enthusiastic, personable, and authentic instead of woodenly acting a script. He was just fine as a 5 term Governor. I'm sure he has the ability to be respected by other countries for his honesty and integrity, refreshing qualities, I think, and ones I trust more than someone who gives the public rehearsed sound bites.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Deckman
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 06:35 AM

I just found this thread. I'm refreshing it so I can study it later! Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST,ellenpoly
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 07:24 AM

This is an absolutely fascinating thread!! I've just downloaded it onto my desktop for later reading. I also passed it on to several friends because I find you people (I only refer to "you people" because I'm not a member) as being a great group for both broadening my own knowledge, but also for sharing such important issues, time and again. And what can be more important at the moment? No, that isn't to say that America is the most important place on earth, or it's coming election (I'm an ex-pat living in London, and we've got a lot on our plate with Mr Blair and co.) but the ramifications of the next election will surely affect more than those living there...we've found that out time and again.
I'm especailly appreciative of the website offered by one of you, about how to compare one's opinions and thoughts, with the candidates, by reflecting on their (and our) policy desires. Of course, desire is one thing, and implimentation is another...but we have to start somewhere!
To the person who began this thread in the first place, I'm so indebted to you for taking the time and chance to really open yourself up to everyone's comments. It's providing such a treasure of shared thoughts! (My own are still in the forming stage...but I'll come back when and if I have anything I think is worthwhile to add, aside from my own INTENSE belief that we HAVE TO GET RID OF BUSH. This is imperative for me, and obviously to most of you.)

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 12:33 PM

Cruiser, it's real simple. Do you want to stop and undo the damage Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, John Ashcroft, and Donald Rumsfeld have done to our constitution, or don't you? Do you want to put the brakes on this America-as-imperialist-bully foreign policy, which will imperil the world for decades to come? Do you want to stop the crazy spending we can't afford?

These issues are so important to me, and so capable of permanent damage to our nation, I am itching for the chance to cast my first Democratic vote for a president ever. (I've cast a few 3rd party votes, this time I'd rather be the one vote that puts my precinct over the top for a Bush loss). Kerry is not who I would pick first from the orchard, but of the two he will do far less damage to our country than four more years of the Halliburton Dynasty.

Kerry is a react-or. He doesn't start movements or even introduce bills. I would prefer a reformer to take on the dangerous level corruption has gotten to in Washington.   Kerry will be pretty much status quo, aside from gutting the Republican neocon machine. But, I will take a do-nothing with a steady moral compass and a steady trigger finger over a reckless nincompoop.

Many, many of the Reagan Democrats are coming back, the sharper 'Joe 6-packs' are starting to figure out Bush isn't really someone to be trusted. A whole bunch of conservatives and moderates are going to swing left this time because a left-leaning hand beats a four-flushing liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 12:57 PM

Thanks to all for the comments.

Work calls, so I will be away from my personal computer and I won't
be able to post for days, but I will be able to read the posts.

Keep the posts coming about Kerry (see the questions I have about him, posted above). I am still very undecided, but I want to vote!

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 01:02 PM

I share some of your views, Cruiser, disagree strongly with others, but would put it to you that if you want to save your country from hijacking by a régime in which the purported president is just the hole in the middle of the doughnut, you have to eject the present crowd for four years, and whoever the Dem is - and it's looking increasingly like Kerry - he could never do as much damage as the present lot have done and are likely to continue doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: NicoleC
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 03:45 PM

I'm all for kicking the current spoiled princling out of office. But there's a concern that needs ot be kept in mind -- right now it's pretty easy to get people riled up over Bush.

Let's say Bush is gone in 2004.
____ gets elected.
____ works really hard and has a good COngress to back him up and undoes 50% of the dangerous crap put in place under the Bush administration. That would be an amazing feat.
... We STILL must work at undoing the rest. Having a better prez won't get it all fixed; this is a long term project. Whomever gets elected, we must not because complacent simply because we think the current Prez is better than the last one. The folks who are riled now may not be with us when it comes to the long term work of undoing the damages to civil liberties and the deficit and our reputation abroad.

The other scenario says that the next Prez doesn't undo any or very little of it, but merely makes a few political gestures. All the more need for diligence. We haven't paid off Reagan's deficit yet. At this rate, the reckless mistakes of one of these jokers every 20 years will never be fixed.

Think your taxes are high now? You know that deficit has to be paid off somehow. This issue killed Bush Sr., but it was the right thing to do get a handle on deficit spending, and it did a lot to prepare the country for the economic upswing under Clinton. 3 years of Bush has undone all of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST,ellenpoly
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 07:55 AM

For Cruiser...if you're still looking for good websites on who says what of the candidates, and where they stand...you might want to go to the following Slate website- http://slate.msn.com/id/2085967/
I found it had some interesting things on it...

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Cruiser
Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:52 PM

Okay, by selecting John Edwards as his running mate, Kerry has cinched my vote. I have never voted for a Democrat for anything that I can recall (maybe dogcatcher?).

I am not too happy voting for 2 Democrat lawyers, but at least they know the rules of logic; something Bush could not even comprehend. I do not like big settlements for plaintiffs that were the forte of John Edwards, but there are worse things. I like that he is against NAFTA and outsourcing of jobs and that he is a self-made man. The only experience he needs is the intelligence that he possesses. He is a decent man and worthy of my vote. Had Kerry picked someone else, I probably would not have voted. I dislike Kerry much less than I despise Bush.

ellenpoly: Thanks for the link, I visited the update just a few minutes ago. Glad you became a member.

Sigurd: NAFTA has caused job loss (cheaper Mexican labor), outsourcing of jobs, invited increased illegal immigration, and increased pollution along Border States with Mexico (Mexican factories and vehicles do not have to meet the same U.S. environmental standards).

Bobert: Now, I'm a'holdin my danged nose and I'm a'askin you to do the same and vote for Kerry/Edwards.

All you Democrats; liberal, middle-of-the-road, and conservative: Pull together and vote for Kerry, please don't waste your vote. If this old conservative Republican can force himself to vote for a democratic ticket, the least you could do is help rid the country of Mr. Bush.

My son asked me the other day "Dad, and you are a Republican because?" Bush, his Cabinet, and their religious nonsense have changed my views of, and made me cynical towards my Party's philosophy. If Kerry wins, perhaps the Republicans will change their ways and get back to the reason I have been, and always will be, a Republican.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 12:15 PM

Cruiser: Edwards' winning big settlements for plaintiffs doesn't bother me at all. To see why, read this little essay of mine, posted in an old thread: (I hope it will set your mind at ease.)

/thread.cfm?ThreadID=47646#712575

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jul 04 - 01:59 PM

Wisely done, Cruiser -- I commend you for thinking things through.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 10:20 AM

Cruiser,

The best reason to vote for Kerry in my opinion is that he has had considerable political experience and is the kind of person that thinks things through rather than goes with impulse.

He has had a good education and international experience. He speaks French and has studied Latin.

He has said that he reserves the right of pre-emption in the last resort. Here, I don't agree with him, but at least it's not the first resort.

He doesn't need money. That in itself keeps corruption at bay. He doesn't have to capitulate to big business interests as Bush has had to do.

He has taken his time to select a running mate and has thought through his choice. Edwards has more personal charisma with many than Kerry and balances the ticket.

He has had war experience which gives him more authority in dealing with this area. He knows first hand the tragedy and futility of war and why he should consider that a last resort.

Bush was never in a war and doesn't have a clue. He doesn't really care about veterans because he has cut benefits for both them and their families. Check the record.

it would be nice to have a person in the White House who is not only educated but knows how to use his education for public service.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 02:54 PM

Why is part of Frank's message blocked out?

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 07:44 PM

The best help I can offer is this: Did you like four years of Bush? Do you want four more? If you answered no to either of those questions. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Help a Conservative Republican Vote Demo
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 11:59 PM

Does anyone know Kerry's stance on:... Well, let's just pretend.

Illegal drug issues
If you can the drug laws, they wont be illegal.

Gay marriage
Why not? My wife and I are as chipper as can be!

Amnesty for illegal immigrants
Everyone but Indians?

Separation of church and state
With a crow bar... (kinda like Alter boys and... well never mind...)

Death penalty
I kill you, you kill me, it's a hard ass count-ery (to the tune of Barney)

Balancing the federal budget
Good idea, start with the three perscent who own it all!

Outsourcing US jobs overseas
If I get ONE MORE CALL FROM BOMBAY asking why I can't pay my visa bill....

NAFTA
Ever wonder why you can sell a Mexican lorry in Canada, but there is a $400 terrif on musicians?
Well... I hope that helps you... it helped me!
Vote for Kerry (then impeach him when he wins!)
Oh my
Larry