2004 Getaway Program info

Subject: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Ferrara
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 07:41 PM

Well, back from a lovely week in the mountains and have been hard at wrok (and also at work) on the Getaway program.

Mudcatters, your input will make a big difference. If you've been here before, you know that our program is very inclusive. Workshops are mostly participatory, "We have met our leaders & performers and they are us."

So. The first thing I need is to have a clear idea of who is coming, what kind of music they like, and what special interests they have. I will be e-mailing the people who attended last year, and have put a request for workshop ideas in the FSGW newsletter; but would also like your input on this thread if possible.

If you are definitely coming, would you please either PM me or, preferably, post to this thread. Include the kind of music you like to play and/or sing, the kind of jams and open sings you most enjoy, and if you have an idea for a workshop you'd like to attend or lead.

If you've been to other Getaways, mention the workshops you'd like to see repeated, and workshops you wish we'd had in the past.

If you have a special interest you'd like to share, mention that too. It's especially helpful when people have several interests and are willing to fit in wherever I need them!

We just switched to a new internet server so I have to move last year's Getaway program info to the FSGW web site ASAP. Once that's done I'll post the address here so you can get an idea of the kind of things we do

The program always includes some themed sing-alongs and jams, some country/western music, sea songs, and ballads. There are a few mini-concerts, some sing-arounds and some specialty or "concert" workshops where the leaders perform a few pieces and then open the floor to participation. Last year we had specialty workshops on fiddling styles, mountain music, Irish traditional styles among others.

Well this is just a "teaser" to get us started, there will be a lot more program information coming for the next few weeks.

- Rita Ferrara

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 08:10 PM

I will be there, Rita. Allan and I hope to do a workshop on Hank Williams Sr. Mostly, I love tear jerkers, Gay Nineties ballads, Civil War songs, and...and...and

Last years Music Hall session was well attended and a lot of fun.

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Ferrara
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 08:14 PM

Sinsull, thanks.

Here's a reprise of something I wrote at the start of the earlier Getaway thread. It sort of summarizes the "feel" of the program.

the Getaway is about participation and mutual enjoyment. It's home grown all the way. We usually have about a dozen special guests but they are still guests like everyone else, maybe leading a workshop or giving a short concert during the day but then joining in as "audience" or "contributor" in other people's workshops and joining in the late night singing.

There is a daytime program of four or five tracks of organized workshops and sing-arounds during the day and there is jamming going on much of the time as well.

The program consists of workshops, themed sing-arounds and jams (blues, C&W, pub sing, sea songs or whatever) and a few half hour concerts. The only difference between a workshop and a sing-around is that the workshop is intended to showcase attendees with special knowledge in the type of music being featured. The leaders get a chance to do several songs apiece during the hour, besides inviting the audience to participate. For example, last year we had "Mountain Songs and Ballads" and "Irish Unaccompanied Singing" workshops among others.

We started the concerts because so many people want a chance to hear, say, Kendall, or Big Mick Lane, or Bob Zentz, or Ed Trickett, etc. Different people are featured each year including, most years, one or two relatively unknown musicians and/or non-professionals.

There are sign-up concerts Saturday and Sunday, late-night music after that. Next year we think we'll set aside a cabin near the dining hall for an extra late-night music venue.

Hope this helps.
Rita

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Ferrara
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 08:16 PM

Here are some of the people I believe are coming, either based on info on the first Getaway thread, or conversations. Please correct me if I've listed your name and you aren't going to be able to make it.... or if you're coming and don't see your name here. Also if there's a chance you'd like to lead a workshop, I need to know if you will only be here for part of the weekend.

If there's a star by your name I don't think you've been to the Getaway before & would like more info.

Alaska Mike
Allan C
Allan Rathbone?
Animaterra
Annie
Bearded Bruce
Big Mick
Bobert are you coming????
Carly, + Dean & Sam
Caroline Paton
CatsPHiddle???
Celtaddict are you coming?
Charlie Baum
Dani
Dennis Cook
El Greko*
Ferrara
Fortunato
Genie *
Janie
JAB/Gutbucketeer/Jim B
Jennifer Woods
Joe Offer
Judy Cook
Karen K
Kendall
KT?? *
Lisa Null
Max
Micca
Midchuck & Chris*
MMario
Morticia????
Nancy King
Bill D
ShadowMonk (Darriel)
Sandy Paton
Sinsull (we hope!!!!)
Songster Bob
Tinker
Uncle DaveO???

Well time for me to do some other stuff for a while. This Getaway program stuff is a bit addictive for me once I get into it, I guess it could be worse.
Rita

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 08:35 PM

Rita,

I'm about 80% but can't do the entire weekend. Maybe just Come up Saturday and leave Sunday afternoon. Maybe more but no promises. I'd be more than happy to do a Blues Slide workshop with an emphasis on prewar blues if anyone would like to mess with that stuff. If not, being a first timer, I'll just go witht the flow, be it jus' hangin', 'er doing a short performance, 'er whatever...

Bobert

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 09:15 PM

Rita:

I will be there with a brand new jug, a MOOSE Horn, a duck call, and other fun stuff. It sure would be fun to have another jug band session. I can help host.

JAB

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: kendall
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 09:31 PM

Not sure how much voice I will have so it's hard to commit, but I will be in on Sinsull's workshop at least. (If I have any voice)

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Midchuck
Date: 24 Aug 04 - 10:00 PM

Ferrara, Kris (not "Chris." Be afraid.) and I are 2/3 of Woodchucks' Revenge. Our website is here. It's still very much under construction, but the "CDs and Tapes" clicky will give you the playlists for our two CDs and an idea of what we do.

I like cowboy songs and murder ballads and flatpicking, even though I'm not very good at it. Kris likes the more ragtimey fiddle music best.

We don't really specialize much. That's one of the problems we have when we go to get gigs. A promoter asks "What kind of music do you do?" and we answer "Songs we like." Oh well. We'd be available wherever there was any use for us.

Getting excited.

Peter.

Oh, and Kendall can vouch for the quantity, if not quality, of my adults - depraved adults - only songs, if there's any place for such.

P.

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 03:43 AM

Rita,

yes, it will be my first Getaway. Here's some info, please PM me if you want to know more:

I am a singer/songwriter, so I play mostly my own stuff, which has the underrunning theme of "singing the praises of ordinary people", with 30% wristslashers, 30% tearjerkers, 20% historical and 20% lighthearted (and a few "funnies"). I accompany myself on 12- and 6-string guitars according to the song, and have developed a rather unusual fingerpicking style - so they tell me, to me it's normal - emphasizing bass string riffs.

But I also like to join in and do harmonies - both on guitar and vocal - in just about any style. I am a compulsive harmoniser/hummer.

I like to listen to anything except opera and Chinese music (I will skip any related workshops at the Getaway therefore ;-)). I am attracted by the unusual (a strong riff, a fusion of styles, a song about some piece of history unknown to me), but especially attracted to strong lyrics from unusual angles.

You can get quite a bit of detail about me - including some MP3s to listen to, in the "albums" section - from my website: http://www.folk4all.net

I will arrive Friday evening and plan to leave Sunday afternoon.

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: jacqui.c
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:34 AM

Hi Rita

I'll be there with Kendall. This will be my first Getaway.

I tend to concentrate on English traditional folk, singing unaccompanied, but like listening to almost any music with an emphasis on the general folk idiom.

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:23 AM

mentioned in the 'Care and Feeding of Muses' thread - perhaps a 'Care and Feeding of Muses' workshop/discussion/brainstorming session?

Something I'd like to see is a 'Song Challenge!' sing around and/or workshop - maybe a selection of three or four 'challenge!' type topics - which could be handed out the night before the workshop and then results sung ?

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Ferrara
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 11:01 AM

Thanks, Greko & Jacqui. Mmario, can you tell me more about the "Song Challenge"?

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 11:06 AM

PM coming...

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Janie
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 02:56 PM

I second JAB's suggestion for a repeat of the Jug Band workshop/sing around! I hope Lisa Null is planning another vocal clinic (and I hope I can get to go to all of it for once!) I assume there will be a gospel/hymn sing. A workshop on duets might be nice?

Can't wait!

Janie

I may be getting there early Friday this year, in which case I can help set up, if I'm not busy making airport runs. Guess I should pm Charlie about that, huh?

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:13 PM

While I haven't yet sent in my registration, I'm definitely intending to be there.

I play guitar and banjo, and my "bag" is singing folk-type songs, almost exclusively story songs. I do very little instrumental-only playing, and I'm not too interested in playing as part of a group; that is, I'm a solo act folk singer, with guitar, banjo, or unaccompanied.

The reference to a "Song challenge" above puts me in mind of a game format I've had in mind for years. It starts out as a sing-around song circle. The first singer sings anything he/she likes. The next singer has to sing a song which uses a theme picked up from the first song. Thus, Jesse James could be followed by a song about bank robbers, or murder, or whatever. The third singer has to sing one based on a theme from the second singer's song. No repeats of previously done songs allowed unless it's a substantially different version. If a singer at his turn can't come up with an appropriate song, he's retired from circulation. Sort of like a spelling bee. One might run into some rather creative rationalizations for how the offered song is related to the previous one; that could make for a lot of fun. This could go on for quite a while if the singers assembled have large repertoires. Last singer left wins.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:51 PM

Uncle DaveO is coming to the Getaway? Life is good.
SINSULL

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:55 PM

Uncle Dave.." I'm a solo act folk singer, with guitar, banjo, or unaccompanied."......I hope you don't mean you don't allow singin' along...this bunch tends to help, unless threatened. *grin*

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:57 PM

Don't go in the lion's cage tonight, Mother dear
The lions are ferocious and they bite

Requests already, Dave

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Gorgeous Gary
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:55 PM

Rita: I'll be there! Of course, you know what I'm famous and/or infamous for (wicked grin)...

I can certainly lead Parodies again, or Jewish songs, or Songs from Literary Sources.

-- Gary

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: kendall
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:59 PM

I'm not really sure what I do. Whatever feels good I guess.
If I had to define myself, I'd have to say I'm a regional humorist. (Maine) who is apt to sing almost anything.

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: bigchuck
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:35 PM

Rita, I'm trying to get confirmed time off from work to come. I am the remaining third of Woodchuck's Revenge. My roots are 60's era folk and blues, and I play guitar, mandolin, and incompetent banjo. My repertoire is wide and eclectic, and I'm happy to jump in and make a fool of myself in almost any situation.

Sandy

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Midchuck
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:55 PM

...incompetent banjo...

and he's given to redundancy in his speech...

Peter.

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Ferrara
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:35 PM

So tempting to set up a workshop on "Incompetent Banjo" ... but I guess I'll refrain so's to speak.

Good ideas, keep 'em coming. We can't use them all alas because time doesn't permit, but it ALL helps me get a feel for the kind of stuff this year's guests would enjoy.

I absolutely have to get a bit of my own work done for the next few days but as early as possible, will post a list of proposed workshops including the ones we've come up with so far in local discussions amongst FSGW members.

Rita

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: karen k
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 02:54 AM

Rita,
I'll be there, of course. Ballads, gospel, shipwrecks, mining disasters. Also, I learned a lot of new stuff last spring in England. Actually, I should say I'm learning a lot of new stuff I heard for the first time in England. I'm doing a workshop for NOMAD called England Revisited where I'm doing nothing but songs from England that I never heard before this trip. Maybe Jacqui and I could do an English Song workshop.

Some year I'll get to the Jug Band workshop.

Can't wait. It'll be nice to meet some new mudcatters.

k

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:09 PM

Bigchuck, I had a banjo like that once.

Rita, yes I will be there. Can't wait to see old friends and make new ones. I hope there is a "Songs of the Sea" workshop again, but I know that if there is it will coincide with some other workshop I want to go to. If you would like me to do anything particular, just let me know. See you soon.

Mike

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Tinker
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:02 PM

I can never make up my mind between the choices, but last year's Blues session was wonderful. And I'd definately enjoy Midchuck's depraved adult suggestion. Can't wait to meet new 'catters and hug the old friends...

tinker

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: MMario
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 08:50 AM

yes - a depraved adult session sounds good.

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 10:45 AM

Sounds like Tinker is bringing BOB, her Battery Operated Boyfriend, along. Be fun to watch Mick cringe again.

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 11:48 AM

Rita, you forgot me (sniff, sniff).

Songs for depraved adults sounds good. (Rita, Middie doesn't usually get too awful depraved, if you know what I mean.)

Old or new singable songs with lots of harmony, and trying to find the elusive "missing notes" with voice or fiddle; trying to figure out guitar chords fairly quietly and watching people's hands; the odd fiddle tune.

I had an idea about the songwriting workshop, if there will be one. T the ideas for songs could be really mundane ones such as words (verbs, nouns, adverbs, adjectives). "Reflection" or "scream" leaves more room for being devious than a strict and detailed topic.

Fingerpicking for Dummies might be good. The 'for Dummies' books are used by experts in whatever field, so the title isn't really accurate. They could be subtitled 'Simple things you might not have known even if you're a genious'. Something along the lines of how to design an appropriated accompaniment for a song.


'Trees in Story and Song': good way to work the stump songs in, but there's also oak, ash, thorn, maple, apple, leaves and Wood(y Guthrie...maybe that's pushing it).

Let me point out there's an elephant in the living room...
A Fielding workshop. He made a lot of friends at the Getaway, influenced people, and there may be a few stories we haven't heard yet. Sandy should have first refusal for leading it. I'll volunteer for whatever, and I'll also nominate Mick because his computer's messed up and he can't refuse (not that he would). Maybe others knew him well and would be good leaders, too.

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 12:03 PM

I have a particular interest in story songs. They include English and Scottish ballads and many, many others, both traditional and some not so traditional. Some of the songs I like and sing are not technically stories, but have a sort of narrative feel about them anyway. If there were a session/demonstration/workshop on story songs (as the definition is widened above), you can bet your bottom dollar I'd be there!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Dani
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 02:51 PM

Hey now. I'm all for a workshop on "Depraved Songs for Adults", or "Depraved Songs" for adults only, but I will not come and sing my depraved songs if they mark me as a Depraved Adult.

Dani

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 05:04 PM

reformed, have we, Dani?

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 07:49 PM

gollee! I may have to dust off "Charlotte the Harlot" and stuff I haven't sung much since we lost Dave Olive....(Dave made depravity into something between an art form and a spectator sport..)

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Gorgeous Gary
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 08:25 PM

Well, there are those who would say my entire reportoire qualifies as Depraved Songs...that being said, I definitely could contribute a couple of umm, err, **interesting** numbers to that!

-- Gary

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 12:36 AM

I'll be there (with my wife, I hope), and happy to help out in any way I can. I've thought of "Fat Choruses," "In the Tradition" (new songs that sound traditional), and I'm sure I can come up with a few others.

Warmly,
Dan Schatz

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 06:47 AM

Right now it's looking pretty good for me being there (it's just a matter of figuring out my getting there...).
I'm best at play-party songs and singing games- many of them are the kind the young folks did when dancing was forbidden. "Oh, no, ma'am, we're not dancing, we're just playing a l'il ol' game!"
Lots of fun and flirtation. Technically they're considered kids games now, but who's gonna tell if it's just overgrown kids?

Allison

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 07:00 AM

Rita,

Can I get some time to have a workshop on "Care and Feeding of Muses" ( see thread of that name) I will bring ginger and Reese's PB cups, but the idea is to discuss how to encourage the creative process. Anybody else want to help direct ( not lead, since I have no idea where it will go!) such a workshop?

Late night, perhaps- One thing many on the thread commented on was the fact that ideas often cam when the person was tired or distracted.

I haven't forgotten to pick up my records- next Monday is the first day off I can make it over.

Bruce

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Ferrara
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 02:17 PM

Dan, good to hear from you, what are "Fat Choruses"?

Bruce I like the idea of "C&F of Muses" but it's too early to say for sure, it sounds very good to me though. Mmario? Would you like to co-lead this?

As I said, this weekend I'm mostly tending to other stuff (TWO trips to take Darriel's belongings to his new apartment at Towson U, etc...). I am WAY behind on e-mailing all the folks I haven't heard from who came to last year's Getaway. (Probably won't e-mail any of the Shellbacks unless I know they are coming....). If I've heard from you here, I won't send you an e-mail, OK?

As Bill says, "little by little, the bird builds its nest." We'll get it built. I have really liked having the Mudcatters' suggestions, last year and this year. It helps assure me I'm on the right track, and last year a lot of neat workshops were first suggested on the Mudcat Getaway threads.

Rita

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: MMario
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 08:51 AM

Sure I'd be willing to co-anchor 'Care and Feeding of Muses' - hopefully if will not conflict with depraved adults.


'Christmas Comes Early' could be another sing session....

MMario

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Dani
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 12:05 PM

... what if your muse IS a Depraved Adult?!

And, what about a progressive song circle, such as starting with murder and other crime songs, moving on to prison, pining-inside-or-outside-the-bars songs, then ending with getting-out-of-jail songs? It would bring an interesting mix of people together.

Dani

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 12:17 PM

I'm not sure it shouldn't start with love songs, then maybe cheatin' songs, THEN murder songs. Or maybe just random starting points, with songs that continue a story line. "And THEN what happened?" Good idea, Dani!

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 12:55 PM

I am liking some of these ideas...now, all we need is a 5 day Getaway to work in all the good ideas.

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 01:13 PM

yes - it would get a bit limiting to try to combine too many of them -
"allright gang - lets figure out how to to write a sea chanty with a chorus; about the care and feeding of depraved adult muses overdosing on chocolate and crystalized ginger at christmas on the West coast of the Great Lakes while making a jailbreak from their prison deep in the mines"

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Fortunato
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 01:25 PM

Rita,

Susette and I will be there, but I'll be arriving before her with the mighty Micca in tow, probably on Friday.

Chance

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Dani
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 02:42 PM

Well, and sure, it would all lead up to Gospel on Sunday morning, with light hearts, don't you know, and we'd have all day Sunday to work up to Depravity again!!

Dani

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Tinker
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 01:37 AM

Now SINS, just cause I keep trying to keep the female side of the old blues alive... (Okay BOB is a new version of an old genre...) but someone has to keep the lady's side of the dirty ol blues alive.... Now if I could just get someone to sing the Butcher Duet....

I could really use that finger picking for dummies suggestion Jeri threw out... And I may just have to cornor Bobert for a slide lesson even if it doesn't make the schedule (hint, hint)

Scheduled or free form the stump shantys need some form of forum...

Rita thanks so much for putting this all together.

tinker

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Ferrara
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 08:09 PM

Still readin'.... And taking notes but I'm only about a third of the way down the thread with the notes! Takes me MUCH longer to take good notes, and organize them, than it does just to read people's ideas.

Tinker thanks for the good words.

Dan, I repeat: What is a "Fat Chorus"?????

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: GUEST,David Diamond
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:42 PM

I have reserved the weekend - and plan to be there.

I haven't run a workshop at the Getaway in a while - but it sounds like there might be plenty of folks with new ideas and I am happy enough joining in with other folks.

Has anyone considered a workshop for LOUD singers, loud songs, and loud choruses? Maybe it's a little crazy, but it might encourage some people to sing out. All this stuff about sharps and flats harmonies is all very well for those who can do that sort of stuff, but speaking as ToneDeafDave, there is something to be said for volume.

Re: Fat chorus - Jonathon used to refer to some of the Boarding Party numbers as 'fattening'. I never knew whether it was a private term, but it referred to those songs with long, rolling, melodic choruses, like 'Shallow Brown', that make you want to stand close to the other singers and drown in the music.

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: JedMarum
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 11:59 PM

I wish I could be there ...

all the best, Folks!

Subject: RE: 2004 Getaway Program info
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:29 AM

Jed, one of these years...
One of these years, you may be able to pop up in your private jet, but until then, think about pencilling a Getaway in the schedule and doing a few house concerts on the way to give people a taste of whatever's on whatever CD you happen to be making at the time. I miss you at these things!

'Fat chorus' could mean a nice, long one, or one with a ton of harmony.
I like "ToneDeafDave hosts BellowFest 2004" sounds pretty good to me. Of course, well-fleshed harmonies tend to get a bit loud. In any case, everybody needs a good bellow now and then, and it sure helps me loosen up.

I'd go to a slide workshop, provided it wasn't scheduled opposite an obnoxious chorus workshop.

Clarification on Fingerpicking for Dummies: My problem (one of them) is combining picking patterns, figuring out what works for a song. Rick taught me a couple of basic patterns, I came up with a few on my own, but I don't understand how to vary them within a song, how to make it smooth, or how to work tunes in. I suspect I'm over-complicating things, but it would help a lot if I were able to 'pick' the brains of someone who was good at it.