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BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
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Subject: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Greg F. Date: 11 Jan 16 - 10:10 AM If Shin Bet says THIS is a terrorist organization, I suppose we should believe them. No? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Jan 16 - 10:21 AM "Shin Bet says the group poses a continuing danger of violence" I wonder whether they've ever said anything similar about the people who give the orders to the IDF. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 16 - 10:33 AM The IDF, just following orders: My Truth: "Right now a terrorist is receiving medical care after attempting to stab IDF soldiers this morning. The soldiers gave an emergency infusion after the terrorist tried to stab them. This is our truth." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 16 - 10:56 AM Israel hunts down and prosecutes Israelis who commit terrorist acts unlike the Palestinians who glorify and celebrate child-murdering terrorists. Who holds the moral high ground here? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Jan 16 - 12:31 PM Not the Israeli regime. The only high ground they hold is the high ground they've stolen for their illegal settlements. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 16 - 12:52 PM Hi, Greg. Same old crap, I see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 16 - 12:55 PM "The only high ground they hold is the high ground they've stolen for their illegal settlements." There are no illegal settlements - unless of course one assumes that Jews should not own property or build in those areas because they are jews. Every current Jewish "settlement" is on land owned by Jews before 1948 or purchased after 1967. Settlements that tried to set up on land that was not Jewish owned have been dismantled. We continue to hear the term "illegal", but "legal and illegal" has to be more that political desires and interests. It has to refer to law. And, frankly, law established during the illegal Jordanian occupation of the area in which jewish property was confiscated and retitied, and current PA regulations that ban sales or ownership of property by Jews is not valid |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Jan 16 - 01:02 PM That is such a silly post that it doesn't deserve a response. We could just let this twit waffle along on his own, Greg. Just a suggestion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: MGM·Lion Date: 11 Jan 16 - 01:11 PM Sorry, Steve. You can call it 'a silly post' if it makes you feel self·righteously comfortable in your unacknowledged racism (or perhaps, to be kind, your good old British instinct to support the underdog); but it happens to be 100% accurate re the status (legally purchased for cash from the actual owners) of the terrain concerned... ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST,Musket Date: 11 Jan 16 - 01:29 PM Illegally held ground. Yep, I'm comfortable with that. As are The UN The U.K. Government. The EU Oh and I'm comfortable with it having been there and seen the vicious attitude of the Israeli government in their support of their home grown fascists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 16 - 01:46 PM Judea and Samaria was never "Palestinian" land, it was a part of Mandate Palestine given to the Jews by the British for a Jewish homeland. Before that it was under occupation by the Ottoman Turks for 600 years. Under the Ottomans very little land was owned by anyone, the Ottoman rulers preference was to lease land rather than title it. Jews had been living in Judea and Samaria for generations. They were ethnically cleansed, dispossessed and had their properties confiscated and retitled, all done illegally under the illegal occupation of Jordan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 11 Jan 16 - 02:20 PM I have lived there Musket and you are totally ignorant on this subject. A wee holiday and you are an expert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST,Musket Date: 11 Jan 16 - 02:22 PM It's not about the historical situation, it's about bulldozing the homes of people just to let others live there on the basis of racism. It's immoral, wrong and shameful. I notice it's some Hebrew Scriptures they nod their heads to at the side of the bulldozers to justify their wicked theft, not deeds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 16 - 02:34 PM "bulldozing the homes of people" If there are homes being bulldozed it is because they were illegally built on land that did not belong to those living there. There is a legal system in place to adjudicate these situations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 16 - 02:46 PM BTW, anything to say about those "leftist" activists in the employ of such foreign funded NGOs as B'Tselem who have been entrapping Palestinians who try to sell land to Jews and turning them in to the PA knowing full well that the punishment for that is death? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Jan 16 - 03:02 PM Oh for Christ's sake. Don't ever speak to me again please, Michael. Your post is utterly despicable in every regard. Shove your childish racist slurs, and your usual utterly childish language, where the sun wouldn't shine even if it could. Sod off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 16 - 03:11 PM Looks like you hit a nerve, Michael. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: MGM·Lion Date: 11 Jan 16 - 03:42 PM Ah diddums! Temper temper! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: MGM·Lion Date: 11 Jan 16 - 03:47 PM ... and I shall address myself to whom I please, Steven [or is it Stephen?], you pompous booby. If you don't like it, don't read my posts -- the way I generally don't even bother with the Musketvite·Popguntribe. Hoping it keeps fine for you, my ickle·dilli·duckling -- ≈Michael≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST,Guest Date: 11 Jan 16 - 04:22 PM Soooooooo... 1. Us = Good :) 2. Not us = Bad ;( Middle East solved... oh wait... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Greg F. Date: 11 Jan 16 - 05:24 PM Meanwhile, back to a discussion of this new gang of Jewish terrorists..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Jan 16 - 05:36 PM ....if you think such a discussion is remotely possible, what with the scum that's already risen to the surface in this thread, Greg. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 16 - 05:45 PM Jews under attack from terrorists September to January: 27 murdered 282 wounded 120 stabbings 46 shootings 30 car attacks 78 firebombs How many victims of new gang of Jewish terrorists ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 16 - 06:38 PM If Shin Bet says THIS is a terrorist organization, I suppose we should believe them. It's a good thing that Shin Bet has identified, is policing and prosecuting these criminals. This is the security service of a civilized country doing it's job. This is what Prime Minister Netanyahu said after visiting the parents and brother of the baby killed by the terrorists in the arson attack: "When you stand next to the bed of this small child, and his infant brother has been so brutally murdered, we are shocked, we are outraged. We condemn this. There is zero tolerance for terrorism wherever it comes from, whatever side of the fence it comes from." Contrast that with what Abbas had to say about Palestinian terrorists murdering Jews: Abbas was quoted as accusing Jews of "defiling the Aqsa Mosque with their filthy feet." Abbas also announced that, "Every drop of blood spilled in Jerusalem is pure blood." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 11 Jan 16 - 06:40 PM Well, I guess we will all have to bow to Steve And musket and their superior knowledge . as for Greg f , well , he is what he is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 16 - 06:52 PM I find it so ironic how upset you people (that being Greg. F, Musket, and Steve Shaw) get when someone even remotely counters your views (not even to mention offends you or demeans you--heaven forbid!), and then you outright assault and demean others and act like it's totally not the same thing. If you demand respect, show it first and maybe it would be actually earned. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link Date: 11 Jan 16 - 07:06 PM ....amen.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Jan 16 - 07:06 PM Well Mr Netanyahu would have had to work overtime to visit the bedsides of all the children that were maimed or killed under his command last time out in Gaza. This is not about superior knowledge. It's about clearing your head of all the pro-Israel lies and propaganda that you've been suckered into believing by the overwhelming mass of the media and by that sickening, undemocratic pro-Israel lobby in America. As for my demanding respect, I don't give a damn whether people like you with your obnoxious notions respect me or not, so why don't you just go and play on the railway. And, to be honest, this thread is probably going nowhere. The original point has already been swamped. We've done it all to death and I for one have no desire to give bigots oxygen. You can carry on without me. Now back to the Bowie tribute shows if you don't mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 16 - 07:14 PM The blood of every man, woman and child killed in Gaza is on the hands of Hamas and Hamas alone. You know that but you are blinded by your hatred. That is obvious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 11 Jan 16 - 07:45 PM Hi Greg , imagine you wanting something actually said,,, well, I never... You are so clever... ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 16 - 09:00 PM The only high ground they hold is the high ground they've stolen for their illegal settlements. International Law Officially Recognizes Jewish Claims in Judea and Samaria |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Greg F. Date: 11 Jan 16 - 09:05 PM Yup- some old Low, High, and Bearded Bullshit in spades. Should have known better, I suppose, than expect rationality from the usual delusional bigots. Adios. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 16 - 09:26 PM So Greg, I guess you were expecting your all fellow Jew haters to hop onto the thread to perform their usual Israel bashing song and dance number but they didn't show up so you're skulking off. Aw well, nite nite then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 11 Jan 16 - 09:36 PM The usual delusional bigots are all on your side Greg. Guess what, every thread you start ain't always gonna go your way ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST,Musket Date: 12 Jan 16 - 03:14 AM Not much to add really. Other than pointing out to Lilo that I have never been there on holiday ever. So you see, rather than face up to the obscene image of families pushed out of their homes which were then bulldozed under a racist agenda, with the Israeli army keeping watch, our pro thug set prefer to make things up about those pointing out the repugnant Israeli program. Shame on you Lilo. Braidedbeardedbruce is a fool and Michael is a rambling old duffer whose rants are irrelevant and at best, humoured. But I thought you preferred to be taken seriously. Tosser. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 12 Jan 16 - 03:29 AM Your first sentence is where you should have stopped. It is as accurate as you have ever been. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: MGM·Lion Date: 12 Jan 16 - 04:00 AM Howdee Popgun-Me-Darl'n' Rambleramble·duffduff ritebak2U x❤x❤x |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST,Musket Date: 12 Jan 16 - 05:23 AM Some say good old Michael Some say 🐮💩👻 Right back to yer. Chat later when the sanatogen kicks in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Jan 16 - 05:59 AM "The blood of every man, woman and child killed in Gaza is on the hands of Hamas and Hamas alone. " "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign a contract with Israel. It's normal: We took their land. It's true, that it was promised to us by God, but why should they care? Our God is not their God. There were anti-Semites, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was it their fault? They only see one thing: We came and stole their land. Why should they accept that?" David Ben Gurion Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jan 16 - 06:52 AM Not verified Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Jan 16 - 06:59 AM Prove othewise Keith - go away and appease your own paricular brand of terrorism Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jan 16 - 07:23 AM You should be prepared to verify your quotes Jim. We have discussed this one before so you know you can not verify it. I am surprised you keep trying to get away with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST Date: 12 Jan 16 - 07:49 AM that sickening, undemocratic pro-Israel lobby in America There are 3,700 registered lobbies in the US, are they all undemocratic or just the Jewish ones? That brings to mind this little gem I came across on Facebook from a couple of your fellow travelers: Rik Little If I can I stay away from preloaded titles like Jew. It wastes too much time arguing with idiots. I say Zionists or AIPAC worshipers. David Blomstrom The problem is that "Zionist" doesn't include Jewish bankers, the Jews who control the media, etc. A better term is actually "Jewish Mafia," but I still often use "Jews" simply because the Jewish Mafia is so big. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Jan 16 - 08:00 AM "You should be prepared to verify your quotes Jim." Done that Keith - you have had the indisputable source and bent over backwards to show either it was a fake, or Ben Gurion didn't mean what he said - two different arguments - take your pick It's about time you started explaining you persistent support for Israeli terrorism - it's inhumanly sickening. "I am surprised you keep trying to get away with it." Jim Caroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Jan 16 - 08:17 AM Just a reminder Keith When I first raised this, you denied it was ever said because the source was not verified. You then did an about turn and agreed he said it, but didn't mean it - he was "only pitting the Arabs' point of view" Now, it appears, you have done another about face and are claiming that the quote has not been verified. You are not very good at your terrorism appeasement, are you - you can't even stick to your own script. What kind of rrjits do you take us for when you can't even remember your own excuses. Jeeezzz-us Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jan 16 - 01:15 PM Not true Jim. He was supposed to have said it in a private conversation in 1956. (1956!!) It was related in a book published in 1978, but no-one else can corroborate it. Deny any of that? If he did say it, he is only giving his perception of the Arab view, and we all know that was the Arab view anyway. So what is your point Jim. He may or may not have said that, in 1956, Arabs thought Jews had stolen their land. They had not stolen any land. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Wolfgang Date: 12 Jan 16 - 02:25 PM But Israelis and Arabs can have so much in common... After the events in Cologne (mentioned in at least two deleted threads) some Germans feel that they have to take the law in their own hands. Among several attacks there was one in Dresden where two Israelis were beaten up and injured by half a dozen most likely right wing (Neonazi?) youngsters screaming "Fucking Arabs". I ponder if it would have helped them to tell their attackers that they are mistaken or if that would have increased their plight. Wolfgang (off topic) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST,Musket Date: 12 Jan 16 - 02:25 PM "They had not stolen any land" I'm with The UN on this one, rather than Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Jan 16 - 02:29 PM "He was supposed to have said it in a private conversation in 1956. (1956!!)" So ***** what Keith - you went through somersaults and finally landed on "he said it but he didn't mean it" Go off and find one of your "real historians" who sell their books in "real bookshops" to show us he didn't say it - it's a world-wide, well known quote which has never been denied by anyone other than you. Are you insane to take it on yourself to deny a quote from someone like Ben Gurion? Of course they stole Arab lands and are still stealing it, and are slaughtering men women and children in order to do so - or maybe that's another myth!!!!! What are you on Keith - atrocity-denial overdrive, it would appear Sheeesh!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: GUEST Date: 12 Jan 16 - 02:42 PM I'm with The UN on this one No surprise there: Anti-Semitism in the UN |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jan 16 - 03:21 PM In 1956 Musket? The UN had only created Israel eleven years previously. In 1956 the UN had not accused Israel of stealing any Arab land. It is only in recent years that the UN has become predominantly anti Western. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 12 Jan 16 - 06:56 PM all fellow Jew haters to hop onto the thread to perform their usual Israel bashing song and dance number "Jew-Haters" like Shin Bet, obviously. Seems the usual Israeli apologist crowd crowd is still pushing "Its not my fault, Mommie - it all started when Johnnie hit me back!!!" Plus c'est la même chose... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Musket Date: 12 Jan 16 - 07:47 PM "Anti western". Evidence please. 1956. Fuck all to do with my post. Apology please The diatribe by braidedbeardedbruce. - Nobody gives a fuck about Zionism and its criminal terrorist aims inspired by Sky pixies. To equate the disgusting mindset of the Israeli government to the plight of Europeand who happened to be Jews is not only repugnant but shows your ignorance of a situation and geography you know absolutely nothing about but have some ancestory claim on, judging by your post. Fine. I have ancestors who rolled in shit. How does it feel and smell? I have no fucking idea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Richard Bridge on the network Date: 12 Jan 16 - 10:46 PM Let's see, what are the stats currently doing the rounds on facebook? 40% of Arab children arrested by Israeli forces are sexually molested and 100% are tortured - are those the stated statistics? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Richard Bridge on the network Date: 12 Jan 16 - 10:51 PM https://truthdox.wordpress.com/2015/08/28/israelis-raping-children-report/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jan 16 - 01:53 AM "Anti western". Evidence please. Most regimes in the world, and so most in UN, are corrupt dictatorships and/or irrational theocracies. They easily outvote the liberal democracies. Scandinavian countries, EU and other European countries, countries like Canada, Australia and India, do not make those wild accusations against Israel. They have friendly relations and trade. In 1956 the UN had not accused Israel of stealing any Arab land. It is only in recent years that the UN has become predominantly anti Western. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 13 Jan 16 - 05:25 AM Terrorism, Again (Israel) Terrorism, Again (Philadelphia). GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 13 Jan 16 - 07:54 AM I believe we have us an imposter folks. I do not believe that Mr. Bridge, in spite of the disdain he has expressed towards Israel and Jews, would link to such a hateful and virulently antisemitic blog as evidenced above. I hope I am not proven wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jan 16 - 08:36 AM Keith You have supplied not one shred of evidence (despite you two contradictory reasons) for David Ben Gurion's statement either being a fake or his not meaning what he said. It is a one man campaign to debunk the words of the Father of Israel - there's dedication for you. You are the self-appointed David Irving of Israeli State Terrorism. "Scandinavian countries, EU and other European countries, countries like Canada, Australia and India, do not make those wild accusations against Israel. They have friendly relations and trade." The Us is one of Israel's strongest supporters yet for 14 years it bombed a South East Asian country with missiles containing napalm and toxic Agent Orange which even gave its own pilots cancer. No country, certainly those you mention, openly supports Israel,s behaviour in the Middle East - not one - and the Israeli regime is condemned worldwide by every human rights group - yet you go with the politicians - why wouldn't you? Wot - no historians!!!!! I have no doubt they're waiting in the wings to be called. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jan 16 - 09:17 AM Jim, You have supplied not one shred of evidence (despite you two contradictory reasons) for David Ben Gurion's statement either being a fake or his not meaning what he said Wrong. He is supposed to have said it in an uncorroborated private conversation in 1956. It was first related in 1978. That would not stand up in court Jim. Anyway, he only gave the Arab view, which we all know so what is your point in posting it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jan 16 - 10:18 AM "Wrong. He is supposed to have said it in an uncorroborated private conversation in 1956." Which has never been denied by anybody other than you - a touch of meglomaia, I think. Do you not find irt a bit lonely to be th only person on the planet to deny he ever made the statement? It would worry me. "Anyway, he only gave the Arab view," There you go - two for the price of one - he didn't say it but he meant something else ----- get help Even David Irving makes a better fist of Holocaust denial Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jan 16 - 10:47 AM Do you actually have any grounds for claiming that Ben Gurion didn't make the statement - if so, what are they - so far you have just denied it because it doesn't suit your arguments in favour of State terrorism Jim Carroll Another interesting quote from a Zionist Rabbi "Speaking of quotes, here is one from Vladimir Jabotinsky, father of Revisionist Zionism: "The Arabs loved their country as much as the Jews did. Instinctively, they understood Zionist aspirations very well, and their decision to resist them was only natural ….. There was no misunderstanding between Jew and Arab, but a natural conflict. …. No Agreement was possible with the Palestinian Arab; they would accept Zionism only when they found themselves up against an 'iron wall,' when they realize they had no alternative but to accept Jewish settlement." I saw somewhere an account of a speech that Moshe Dayan gave, back in the '50's, at a funeral of an Israeli killed in a terrorist attack. I wish I could find the source. But his speech was described as starting out sounding like an eloquent defense of the right of Palestinians to resist. He talked of how they lost land and homes, and spoke poignantly of what it must be like to look across a border at your home, but not be allowed to go back to it. But then he went on to say basically what Jabotinsky said – some version of, "They may have a right to fight us but we have to win." As I frequently point out in arguments about the history of the I/P situation, such quotes prove that the facts are not really in dispute. No serious historian believes that the Zionists just settled on empty land, or even that the Palestinians didn't have valid reasons to resist. The dispute is all about values. Benny Morris was one of the first Israeli mainstream historians to expose the ethnic cleansing of Palestine (Palestinian historians, of course, were saying this from the beginning). But Morris then concludes by saying basically the same thing as Ben Gurion, Jabotinsky, Dayan and the others – "Yeah, we did it, but it was necessary and we had to win." It is both necessary to be educated about the facts, as well as to look at with what system of values we view them. Thankfully, we have the Henry Cliffords, the Phil Weiss's and the Adam Horowitz's of the world around to remind us of both. To understand the history of Palestinian dispossession look to the words of Zion |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 13 Jan 16 - 12:12 PM "Mahmoud Abbas' recent statements, unreported in the West, show that the wave of knifings and car-rammings against Israelis is a national campaign whose fighters act according to the directives of their leadership." Haaretz |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jan 16 - 12:50 PM Jim, I have not denied that he said it. I just pointed out that it was very unconvincing, and that even if he did say it, he was only stating the well known Arab view. My question, given all that, is why you think it worth posting?! It is about three times now. Why? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jan 16 - 12:52 PM "is a national campaign " ANOTHER NATIONAL CAMPAIGN AND ANOTHER AND YET ANOTHER Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jan 16 - 01:23 PM he wave of knifings and car-rammings against Israelis is a national campaign Surely some mistake. The victims are not just Israelis. Only Jews are singled out for death. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 13 Jan 16 - 01:47 PM Only Jews are singled out for death. Exactly, this is from Haaretz, don't forget. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 13 Jan 16 - 02:00 PM The victims are not just Israelis. Only Jews are singled out for death. Unless, of course, they happen to be Muslim/Palestinian Israelis....... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 13 Jan 16 - 02:06 PM Unless, of course, they happen to be Muslim/Palestinian Israelis....... ??????? I haven't heard of Palestinian terrorists targeting Muslim/Palestinian Israelis. If it has happened it was a case of mistaken identity - the killers thinking the victim was a Jew. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jan 16 - 02:12 PM Greg, Have any Arab Israelis been targeted? If not, what is your point? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 13 Jan 16 - 02:27 PM I believe that Greg, in his usual inimitable fashion, is trying to make an equivalence between the attack on the Dawabsha family by a gang of Israeli extremists, who have been caught and arrested, with the national terror campaign targeting Jews orchestrated by the Palestinian Government of Abbas. Nice try there Greg but it don't wash. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jan 16 - 08:21 PM "Only Jews are singled out for death." Perhaps it might help if the Antisemites among us stop accusing The Jews for the Israeli regimes terrorism. No backers for your "Ben Gurion didn't say it campaign" yet Keith? Must be lonely up there. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 13 Jan 16 - 11:46 PM Jim Carroll: "Perhaps it might help if the Antisemites among us stop accusing The Jews for the Israeli regimes terrorism." Arabs are Semites. Your bias is misplaced, and therefore fictional. GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jan 16 - 04:10 AM "Arabs are Semites." And I'm not supporting any antisemitism - but accusations of "antisemitism" whenever the behaviour of the Israeli regime is brought up is both damaging to the Jewish people and is antisemitic according to the definition of the term accepted by the Jewish people - the right wing extremist government in Israel does not represent 'the Jewish people' and linking their behaviour to them is as bad as the activities of the worst antisemetics "However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic." From 'Zionism on the web' Jim Carroll A FURTHER NATIONAL CAMPAIGN MORE STILL IS THERE NO END TO THIS PERSECUTION |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 14 Jan 16 - 04:48 AM The fact that Arabs are also a semitic people is a semantic irrelevance. The term 'Antisemitism', by long usage which to any linguist trumps adventitious & factitious etymology, only means prejudice against Jews -- consult any decent dictionary*. The affectation that it must mean Arabs too is a profoundly irritating bit issue-muddying smartarsery. ≈M≈ *eg in online Dictionary.com, the sole definition is noun 1. discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Jan 16 - 05:14 AM No backers for your "Ben Gurion didn't say it campaign" yet Keith? You originall claimed he said it in interview, but you were wrong. If he said it, it was in 1956 (!) but only in a private conversation so we only have one person who claims to have heard it. Not very convincing Jim, and he is only supposed to have said that Arabs believed their land had been stolen which is hardly a revelation. I just do not understand why you think it so significant. You have posted it several times. Why? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 14 Jan 16 - 06:16 AM Where are your supporters that Bn Gurion didn't say what he said Keith Your one-man-campaign would be risible id it wasn't do disturbing (as is all fanaticism) "I just do not understand why you think it so significant." You don't see a statement by the father of the Israeli state describing the occupation of Palestine as having "stolen their land" significant - my, my - you are in a bad way! The man he said it to, Nahum Goldmann, was the founder of The World Jewish Council - a respected man in Israel and throughout the world and the last person to make up such a profound statement Now, once again - were are your supporters? "You have posted it several times." And I will continue to post it until somebody shows it is a fake - it is a profound statement. You people are no different than the Isis maniacs - just and fanatical and every bit as dangerous, when in power (as shown by the links you are studiously ignoring). Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Jan 16 - 06:25 AM I do not know or care if anyone else doubts that he said it, but it is a fact that only one person ever claimed to have heard it and only wrote it down twenty two years later! the occupation of Palestine as having "stolen their land" significant - No. Not in 1956. Israel was created by the UN just nine years previously. If anyone had stolen the land it was the UN. Arab armies tried to steal all the Jewish land when they attacked Israel on its first day of existence, and kept on trying for decades. That is significant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 14 Jan 16 - 06:35 AM "but it is a fact that only one person ever claimed to have heard it and only wrote it down twenty two years later!" And nobody has ever challenged that it was said - nobody other than you Personally - I don't care too much for anything said by someone who expresses the hatred you do for an entire culture as implanted potential perverts - shows a very disturbed mindset Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 14 Jan 16 - 08:13 AM MYTH "Jews stole Arab land." FACT Despite the growth in their population, the Arabs continued to assert they were being displaced. From the beginning of World War I, however, part of Palestine's land was owned by absentee landlords who lived in Cairo, Damascus and Beirut. About 80 percent of the Palestinian Arabs were debt-ridden peasants, semi-nomads and Bedouins. 18 Jews actually went out of their way to avoid purchasing land in areas where Arabs might be displaced. They sought land that was largely uncultivated, swampy, cheap and, most important, without tenants. In 1920, Labor Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion expressed his concern about the Arab fellahin, whom he viewed as "the most important asset of the native population." Ben-Gurion said "under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them." He advocated helping liberate them from their oppressors. "Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement," Ben-Gurion added, "should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price." 19 It was only after the Jews had bought all of the available uncultivated land that they began to purchase cultivated land. Many Arabs were willing to sell because of the migration to coastal towns and because they needed money to invest in the citrus industry. 20 When John Hope Simpson arrived in Palestine in May 1930, he observed: "They [Jews] paid high prices for the land, and in addition they paid to certain of the occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay." 21 In 1931, Lewis French conducted a survey of landlessness for the British government and offered new plots to any Arabs who had been "dispossessed." British officials received more than 3,000 applications, of which 80 percent were ruled invalid by the Government's legal adviser because the applicants were not landless Arabs. This left only about 600 landless Arabs, 100 of whom accepted the Government land offer. 22 In April 1936, a new outbreak of Arab attacks on Jews was instigated by a Syrian guerrilla named Fawzi al--Qawukji, the commander of the Arab Liberation Army. By November, when the British finally sent a new commission headed by Lord Peel to investigate, 89 Jews had been killed and more than 300 wounded. 23 The Peel Commission's report found that Arab complaints about Jewish land acquisition were baseless. It pointed out that "much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamp and uncultivated when it was purchased. . . . there was at the time of the earlier sales little evidence that the owners possessed either the resources or training needed to develop the land." 24 Moreover, the Commission found the shortage was "due less to the amount of land acquired by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population." The report concluded that the presence of Jews in Palestine, along with the work of the British Administration, had resulted in higher wages, an improved standard of living and ample employment opportunities. 25 Even at the height of the Arab revolt in 1938, the British High Commissioner to Palestine believed the Arab landowners were complaining about sales to Jews to drive up prices for lands they wished to sell. Many Arab landowners had been so terrorized by Arab rebels they decided to leave Palestine and sell their property to the Jews. 27 The Jews were paying exorbitant prices to wealthy landowners for small tracts of arid land. "In 1944, Jews paid between $1,000 and $1,100 per acre in Palestine, mostly for arid or semiarid land; in the same year, rich black soil in Iowa was selling for about $110 per acre." 28 By 1947, Jewish holdings in Palestine amounted to about 463,000 acres. Approximately 45,000 of these acres were acquired from the Mandatory Government; 30,000 were bought from various churches and 387,500 were purchased from Arabs. Analyses of land purchases from 1880 to 1948 show that 73 percent of Jewish plots were purchased from large landowners, not poor fellahin. 29 Those who sold land included the mayors of Gaza, Jerusalem and Jaffa. As'ad el--Shuqeiri, a Muslim religious scholar and father of PLO chairman Ahmed Shuqeiri, took Jewish money for his land. Even King Abdullah leased land to the Jews. In fact, many leaders of the Arab nationalist movement, including members of the Muslim Supreme Council, sold land to Jews. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFmandate.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 14 Jan 16 - 09:32 AM "Jews stole Arab land."" FACT Since the formation of the State of Israel the people who have occupied that land for millennia have been systematically driven off that land. No nation - Empire - whatever has th right to give away occupied land AN OLD COLONIAL HABIT . That is what the trouble is about The Isrealis are setting up an apartheid state (just as they encouraged athe South Adrican Apartheid state to become nuclear efficient) and are preventing Israeli children t learn about assimilation The Palestinians have a right to be there and the Israelis want a monotheistic state - Ben Gurion recognised that - that is why he said what he said. JIm Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Jan 16 - 11:02 AM the Israelis want a monotheistic state No, they want and have created a secular state where any religion can be practised. Unusual for that region. Ben Gurion recognised that - that is why he said what he said. David Ben-Gurion expressed his concern about the Arab fellahin, whom he viewed as "the most important asset of the native population." Ben-Gurion said "under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them." He advocated helping liberate them from their oppressors. "Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement," Ben-Gurion added, "should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jan 16 - 01:16 PM "No, they want and have created a secular state where any religion can be practised" They wish to creat a Jewish state where Muslims are either excluded (hence their opposition assimilation) or have no rights - certainly not enough to protect them from expulsion in favour of settlers - you've been given links to the films of them actually been thrown out of their homes by settlers - BUT JUST IN CASE YOU MISSED IT... The Equality Report' which you have also been given, shows exactly how "equal" they are. Israel's predatory nature regarding land has even extended to Bedoins being driven out by water cannons and chemical sprays Bedouin Jewish Justice in Israel Wonder what Ben Gurion would have thought of that!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Jan 16 - 02:31 PM All citizens of Israel have equal rights under the law whatever their religion, and are free to practise any religion, which is not true of many surrounding countries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jan 16 - 03:14 PM "All citizens of Israel have equal rights under the law whatever their religion," You have just been given two examples of how "equal" tha Arabs are in Isreel - you refuse to respond You have been given a formidable list of forms of persecution carried out by Israel - your response - can't be true because the politicians and businessman wouldn't trade with them - how crass can you get (especially in the light of what's happening in Saudi Arabia at the present time). You're letting the side down Keith - you've forgotten everything David Irving taught you. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 14 Jan 16 - 04:10 PM ....which is not true of many surrounding countries. Careful now Keith or he'll be screaming Islamophobe at you in capital letters any moment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 14 Jan 16 - 07:17 PM "*eg in online Dictionary.com, the sole definition is noun 1. discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews." Well, to quote their own scriptures, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,".... GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 14 Jan 16 - 08:52 PM The Palestinians have rejected every offer for a two state solution that Israel has accepted: In 1937, the Palestinians were offered a state (Peel Commision), they said NO. In 1947, The Palestinians were offered a state (UN Partition), they said NO. In 1967, The Palestinians were offered a state (Khartoum), they said NO. In 2000, the Palestinians were offered a state (Camp David), they said NO. In 2001, the Palestinians were offered a state (TABA), they said NO. In 2008, the Palestinians were offered a state (Olmert offer), they said NO. In 2015, the Palestinians were offered a state (French sponsored UN offer), they said NO. Each time it was offered and they refused, they resorted to violence against Israel. What do you think the Palestinians really want? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 14 Jan 16 - 08:52 PM The Palestinians have rejected every offer for a two state solution that Israel has accepted: In 1937, the Palestinians were offered a state (Peel Commision), they said NO. In 1947, The Palestinians were offered a state (UN Partition), they said NO. In 1967, The Palestinians were offered a state (Khartoum), they said NO. In 2000, the Palestinians were offered a state (Camp David), they said NO. In 2001, the Palestinians were offered a state (TABA), they said NO. In 2008, the Palestinians were offered a state (Olmert offer), they said NO. In 2015, the Palestinians were offered a state (French sponsored UN offer), they said NO. Each time it was offered and they refused, they resorted to violence against Israel. What do you think the Palestinians really want? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Aaron Swartz Date: 15 Jan 16 - 02:44 AM Globalution |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Musket Date: 15 Jan 16 - 02:53 AM I'd have thought the first thing they want is a less aggressive neighbour who might start respecting borders, stop nicking all the water and stop bombing schools and hospitals. Perhaps a neighbour who respects and engages with The UN might be nice too. Just a thought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Jan 16 - 05:37 AM Jim, given two examples of how "equal" tha Arabs are in Isreel - you refuse to respond You and Richard suck up without question every bit of propaganda put out by Israel's sworn enemies. I am not so gullible, and neither are all the decent democracies in the world who would shun Israel if all that shit about them was true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 15 Jan 16 - 05:49 AM "The Palestinians have rejected every offer for a two state solution that Israel has accepted:" Every "offer" has entailed Palestinians leaving than they have occupied for many centuries to make room for Israeli settlers - every single one. It is little wonder that thy have refused - and that Israel has accepted. Britain gave away Palestine in order to wash their hands of a troublesome colony - they left to the sound of hand grenades being tossed into occupied homes by Israeli "freedom fighters". That "freedom" was won by acts of terror such as the bombing of The King David Hotel and street attacks against military and civilian alike, not unlike the present knife attacks against Israelis, only far more deadly and efficient. Israeli aggression towards the Palestinians to further expansionism mounting to crimes against humanity has continued ever since, protectd largely by over 100 US vetoes in the UN - yet the Palesrinians are presented as "the aggressor" - the extremism by the Israelis has reached such a point that it has been condemned by Te Us and its poodle the UK. Things have come to such a state in Israel that if has become necessary to lock away the writings of David Ben Gurion for fear of embarrassment None of this will be responded to by the David Irvings of this forum - Keith may have one more go in conjuring a "historian" to back up his support for terrorism but so far, he and 'Brucie of the Shadows' have remained silent on the facts and will probably continue to do so. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 15 Jan 16 - 06:03 AM "Every "offer" has entailed Palestinians leaving than " Correction - Every "offer" has entailed Palestinians leaving LAND Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 15 Jan 16 - 07:56 AM The Jews have left land they occupied for many centuries in Judea and Samaria when they were evicted and dispossessed and had their property retitled by Jordan during their illegal occupation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 15 Jan 16 - 10:16 AM "Britain gave away Palestine in order to wash their hands of a troublesome colony" - Thus spake Jom the Infallible Tell us all Jom when and how Britain EVER acquired Palestine as a colony. I am absolutely dying to hear what our resident bigot and anglophobe comes up with this time, because as far as I am aware Palestine has NEVER been a British Colony. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 15 Jan 16 - 10:28 AM Before Jom the Infallible starts up, IIRC Great Britain was given Mandate Responsibility for Palestine in 1921 by an International Organisation called the League of Nations. The Mandate had a finite term of 27 years after which time Great Britain ceased to have any responsibility for the mandated territory. In the course of those 27 years Great Britain could only act with the agreement and approval of the League of Nations. According to my arithmetic 1921 + 27 years brings us to 1948 and if memory serves me correct that is when Great Britain departed and the Jews declared their independence and founded the sovereign state of Israel, immediately recognised by the U.S.S.R., the USA and the United Nations. All of Israel's Arab neighbours immediately went to war with Israel and were comprehensively defeated. Instead of opting for peace the Arabs elected to go to war and have been losing ever since - more fool them. So you see Jom - washing hands off anything just simply did not enter into it - Great Britain relinquished mandate responsibility exactly when they originally agreed to do precisely that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 15 Jan 16 - 10:46 AM The facts of the 'colony' question are that Palestine'; governance was 'mandated' to Britain by the League of Nations at end of WW1. It was ∴ never a 'colony' as such, in any meaningful sense. The legal question, as to how far the Mandate remained valid after the League of Nations ceased to exist in 1946, was never satisfactorily settled; but the British maintained a 'de facto' administration, of questionable validity, & perhaps some persecutionary authoritarianism [eg flogging & executing some whom elements of the Jewish population would have regarded as guerilla freedom fighters and the British would call 'terrorists'; and receiving back what the Jewish groups in their turn would call 'reprisal actions':- like the assassination of Lord Moyne; the kidnapping and caning of an MP sergeant; & even more notoriously the hanging of two sergeants in Galilee; & the attempted letter-bombing in London of a former administrator which in fact killed his unfortunate brother] until official withdrawal in May 1948, when the State of Israel, which had been authorised by a partition agreement passed by the UN, was proclaimed. Nasty times. Even after nearly 70 years it's hard to apportion blame for what went on -- if such is even an appropriate thing to try and do. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 15 Jan 16 - 11:05 AM 70 years! I meant nearly 100! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 15 Jan 16 - 01:13 PM When the United Nations was founded certain League of Nations Mandates remained in force. The Mandate for Palestine was one of them - simple matter of record - people blow up hotels and murder people then they should fully expect to be punished for doing so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jan 16 - 01:17 PM "The Jews have left land they occupied for many centuries in Judea and Samaria What - legend has it the Jews left in 70AD - are you seriously claiming they have held the right to return after nearly two thousand years. The millions of Palestinian refugees have been refused the right to return after The 7 Day War Whether Israel was technically a Colony or Mandated to Britain is immaterial - Britain in charge and was glad to get it off their hands. The idea that the Jews could move back and evict the legal occupants after 2 millenia id utter nonsense - you you people know it. Try telling thee Yanks that they have to vacate the US - or the Australians or New Zealanders that they have nor rights to stay where they are - and that's only after a century or so - utter ****** nonsense. Still talking bollocks down to people shipmate - nothing changes - pompous pratt Jim Carroll. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 15 Jan 16 - 01:41 PM the Jewish population would have regarded as guerilla freedom fighters and the British would call 'terrorists' The Irgun WAS a terrorist organization- full stop. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 15 Jan 16 - 04:20 PM What - legend has it the Jews left in 70AD - are you seriously claiming they have held the right to return after nearly two thousand years. Seeing as how your comprehension is lacking I shall repeat what was said earlier: Jews had been living in Judea and Samaria for generations until they were evicted and had their properties seized and retitled by Jordan when it illegally occupied that territory in 1948........Get it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 15 Jan 16 - 04:25 PM I should also add that they will not ever be able to reclaim their properties under a two state solution as the Palestinian Authority has declared that a Palestinian state will be free of Jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 15 Jan 16 - 05:22 PM Ah yes: we must all listen to GregF of course; and never forget that |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 15 Jan 16 - 06:20 PM And you, EmGee, are the thing that spews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 Jan 16 - 12:26 AM LoL 2U GreggiMeDuckling The·#1·Incomparable·Kingsize·SpewInducer cccchhhhhhgggggrewwwwwssspppp ❤x≈M≈x❤ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 Jan 16 - 12:28 AM ...but eenuff of this deathless po-tree... Back to the thread! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jan 16 - 04:23 AM "Jews had been living in Judea and Samaria for generations " Arabs have been living there for many centuries - both have an equal right to do so - neither have a right to drive the other out. I've yet to hear the Arabs accused of expansionism - they are the victims of it; I've yet to hear of Arabs setting up an Apartheid State - but they will be the victims if it ever succeeds. The Israelis are so proud of their history that they have locked away the writings of their founders; they are so ready to associate with their Arab neighbors that they have created armed checkpoints, built Berlin-type walls to keep them out; they are so ready to encourage their people to be friendly with their Arab neighbours that they have banned a book being used in school;s because it "encourages association": they are so ready to share the land that they have a long-term policy of forcibly driving the Arabs out to replace them with settlers of their own faith.... Both have been there since the year dot - unless they learn to live together, their children, their childrens' children and their childrens' childrens' children...... will continue slaughtering each other. The land is not the property of one faith or national or cultural group - it belongs to all who live there - at the present time, and for a long time past it is the right wing Israeli regimes who have been the aggressors. By the way Mike - I wasn't having a pop at the efforts to set up The State of Israel - to a degree, the 'terrorism' that took place was inevitable and, given the circumstances the post war Jews found themselves in, necessary. As usual, one man's 'terrorist' is another man's freedom fighter and national hero. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Jan 16 - 05:05 AM Arabs have been living there for many centuries - both have an equal right to do so - neither have a right to drive the other out. Arab armies have tried several times to drive the Jews out Jim, starting on day one of Israel. I've yet to hear the Arabs accused of expansionism - they are the victims of it; Israel has not expanded either. It is still a tiny sliver of land amidst the vast Arab states. The millions of Palestinian refugees have been refused the right to return after The 7 Day War The seven day war produced no such exodus of refugees Jim. Egypt's lands have all been returned, but Jordan did not want West Bank back. No refugees though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 Jan 16 - 05:13 AM 'Nurse! Nurse! He's out of bed again!' .,,.,. Was this ever funny or clever or had anything to be said for it? Anyone think it still is/does/whevs? How pathetic |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 Jan 16 - 05:20 AM "Mike - I wasn't having a pop at the efforts to set up The State of Israel..." .,,. Noted with thanks, Jim. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jan 16 - 05:24 AM "Israel has not expanded either. " WHAT!!!!!!"! You are mad - go and look at the maps Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Jan 16 - 05:28 AM Tell us what has been added to the state of Israel since it was created Jim. How far have its borders moved? You should look at some maps Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jan 16 - 05:46 AM MAPS Anybody who can be given a film of settlers actually driving out an Arab family because they fancy their home and claim expansionism isn't taking place must be.... something else!!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 16 Jan 16 - 05:56 AM "I've yet to hear of Arabs setting up an Apartheid State" Really Jom?? Perhaps you should look at who can and cannot own property and live in Jordan and take note of the fact that that has been the case since 1923. On demographics take a look at the changes in Gaza, the Lebanon, Syria and Iraq comparing 1948 to the present, then compare it to the demographics related to Israel over the same period. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Jan 16 - 06:19 AM Jim, the only expansion of Israel is the inclusion of Jerusalem. Maybe five square miles? Not much expansion in nearly seventy years! It is still a tiny sliver of land amidst the vast Arab lands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jan 16 - 06:35 AM "Maybe five square miles?" You have the maps Keith - all faked, no doubt You have the film of settlers throwing out the occupants - faked no doubt THIS UN REPORT IS OBVIOUSLY FAKED You are insane. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jan 16 - 07:25 AM " Perhaps you should look at who can and cannot own property and live in Jordan and take note of the fact that that has been the case since 1923." Perhaps you should explain how two wrongs make a right? Israel's record of oppression of the Arabs is beyond denial - the stealing of a#Ara#b land was stated as fact by David Ben Gurion, it has been a way of life from the day Britain steamed off back home, leaving the county in chaos by favouring the Zionists, it is an ongoing fact. "The Sasson Report is an official Israeli government report published on 8 March 2005 that concluded that Israeli state bodies had been discreetly diverting millions of shekels to build West Bank settlements and outposts that were illegal under Israeli law. The report was commissioned by the Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, and was headed by the former head of the State Prosecution Criminal Department Talia Sasson. Talia Sasson would later run for the Israeli elections as part of the left wing party Meretz." SASSON REPORT Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 16 Jan 16 - 07:41 AM "Anti-Israel activists often use doctored maps to show Israel's supposed malfeasance over the past century. Such claims are made by people who, in the best case, have no knowledge of the facts, and in the worst case, have no moral compass." The Mendacious Maps of Palestinian "Loss" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 Jan 16 - 07:43 AM "Britain steamed off back home, leaving the county in chaos by favouring the Zionists" .,,. Like most assertions in this thread, this is a matter of perception. It seemed to us at the time that the Brits had carefully ensured that the 6 [count them -- six] Arab armies were well poised to steam in as soon as they steamed out: particularly that of Transjordan, The Arab League, trained by British Glubb Pasha -- "Lieutenant-General Sir John Bagot Glubb, KCB, CMG, DSO, OBE, MC (16 April 1897, Preston, Lancashire – 17 March 1986), known as Glubb Pasha, was a British soldier, scholar and author, who led and trained Transjordan's Arab Legion between 1939 and 1956 as its commanding general" Wikipedia In what way do you see the British as having "favoured the Zionists" at withdrawal, Jim? Honestly just asking! ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Jan 16 - 07:45 AM Jim the UN report you linked to is not about the state of Israel expanding the borders of Israel. The state of Israel has not expanded, except for the inclusion of Jerusalem. It is still a tiny sliver of land amidst the vast Arab lands. Do you withdraw your claim about the seven day war and "millions of Palestinian refugees?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jan 16 - 07:53 AM "In what way do you see the British as having "favoured the Zionists" at withdrawal, Jim? " Britain "London" was criticised by those responsible for the day to day administration of Israel for favouring Zionism - it was they who described the "chaos" that was left behind. Will try to dig out the article later. So the maps are all fakes Brucie Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 16 Jan 16 - 08:03 AM Have a look at this MAP, it clearly shows what the Arab/Muslim world and Israel haters begrudge a population of 6 million people who have faced persecution for millennia. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 16 Jan 16 - 08:05 AM Israel in red, Muslim countries in green BTW. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 Jan 16 - 10:07 AM "'London' was criticised by those responsible for the day to day administration of Israel" .,,. Who do you mean by this, Jim? The Israeli government criticising and denouncing London for favouring itself? If you mean 'Palestine', why put 'Israel'? It's a commonplace that colonial admins, who can only see the local situation, are always at odds with central admin who can get the whole picture. & what the source of this 'article' that's going to settle the question so indisputably? ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Jan 16 - 11:16 AM So the maps are all fakes Brucie The maps do not show an expanded Israel because it has not expanded Jim. Its borders are virtually unchanged since 1948 except for the old city of Jerusalem which had been illegally seized by Jordan from UN control. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jan 16 - 11:35 AM "Jim the UN report you linked to is not about the state of Israel expanding the borders of Israel." The maps you were link to were - how much land land the Palestinisns have lost fro 1948 to 2000 If you are not prepared to respond to them or the link showing Arans bin throw out, or th Sasson report or everything else you have been given I have no intention of wasting my time responding to you. At least your troll mate has the balls to claim "They have been debunked."(without evidence of course) - same hymn-sheet rehearsal time. If you are not prepared to respond to them I have no intention of wasting my time responding to you." - you just pretend they are not there. Your present technique is to simply ignore what has been put up and deny something else instead. "The Israeli government criticising and denouncing London for favouring itself?" As I remember it Mike, the British staff on the ground complained about the pressure from London to favour the Zionists - they claimed this as the cause of the chaos when the British finally left (as I said, to the sound of hand grenades tossd into occupied houses to make room for the incomers. Deir Yassin I've been working all afternoon and haven't been able to lay my hands on the article or find it in the net - will keep looking. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jan 16 - 11:51 AM Some more sruff to ignore - from inside Israel "The population of Jewish settlers in the occupied West Bank has surged during Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's years in office, growing at more than twice the pace of Israel's overall population, according to newly obtained official figures. Settlement growth also was strong beyond Israel's separation barrier, seen by many as the basis for a border between Israel and a future Palestinian state. The figures reflect Netanyahu's continued support for settlement construction, even while repeatedly stating his commitment to the eventual establishment of an independent Palestinian state as part of a future peace agreement. They also could be a topic of discussion as U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry meets with Netanyahu and European officials this week over a promised UN Security Council proposal dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. While Israeli leaders of all political persuasions have built settlements for decades, the U.S. and western allies have dwindling patience for their construction. From the beginning of 2009 until the beginning of 2014 — Netanyahu returned to office in March 2009 — the Jewish settler population in the West Bank grew 23 percent, to 355,993 people. In comparison, the overall population has grown 9.6 percent to just over 8 million in that time. Figures for 2014 are not expected before late next year. The rate of settler population growth slowed slightly under Netanyahu, from 31 percent during the previous five years under his predecessors Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert. Olmert especially took relatively little heat for the settlements because he was seen as a moderate. In all, the settler population has more than doubled in the 21 years since Israel and the Palestinians have been engaged in an on-and-off peace process aimed at a partition of the Holy Land. Israel captured the West Bank in the 1967 Mideast war, and prime ministers of all political affiliations have allowed and sometimes encouraged settlement of the territory. The Palestinians claim the West Bank, east Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip for their future state. They say all Israeli construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem is illegal — a position with wide international support. Israel withdrew all its troops and settlers from Gaza in 2005. In a situation that challenges Israel's claims to being a democracy, the more than 2 million Palestinians in the West Bank cannot vote for the Israeli government that controls much of their lives, while Jewish settlers can. Netanyahu repeatedly has drawn U.S. ire with controversial construction plans. Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon suggested last week that the government would have liked to do more if not for the U.S. pressure. "We are very, very careful not to push the envelope too much," Yaalon said. "This (U.S.) administration won't be around forever and I hope it is temporary." Even so, he boasted that settlements are growing faster than "any other part of the country." Haaretz And more More still And again Plenty more where they came from - so ignore away Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 Jan 16 - 12:12 PM Thanks, Jim. Yes, as I interpreted, you meant 'Palestine', where this "British staff" was based", not 'Israel, which did not then yet exist; which was confusing. As is your use of "Zionists", by which you seem to mean the Jews then settled in [then] Palestine; whereas Zionism was actually a world-wide political movement working for the establishment of a Jewish State in [then] Palestine. It is arguable that "Zionism"'s ends were achieved, and so it ceased to exist in any viable sense, with the proclamation of Israel in 1948; and the word has now degenerated into one of those quasi-racist terms of implied semi-abuse, best avoided IMO. I know that is by no means any of your motivation in using it; but believe it does leave your implications open to misunderstanding. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jan 16 - 12:49 PM MGM Lion, You should be commended, for your 'politeness'! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jan 16 - 12:53 PM "As is your use of "Zionists", by which you seem to mean the Jews then settled in [then] Palestine; " No I mean (or I assume the article meant) extreme Zionism. I knew Jewish families in Manchester who were far from Zionist in their outlook - Jews yes, but of all political and religious shades - some even communists based on their experiences at the hands of the right (my father once said that there would never have been a Communist Party if it hadn't been for lapsed Catholics and disillusioned Jews). It was in that period I saw the shift from unquestioning support of Israel to an opposition to what was happening there. One of the most memorable people I ever met was Les Parrington, who ran a bookshop in Liverpool. He had moved Germany to Israel, gone on to South Africa, from where he was expelled for his political activities, and ended up running a left-wing bookshop at the top of Mount Pleasant - a lovely, gentle man who taught me much about humanity - probably long dead. Many of my father fellow-prisoners in Spain where Jewish - I was privileged to meet some of them at his funeral where they tuned up in droves. I am aware of the part Zionism played in setting up the state, just as I am aware how it has become a weapon of oppression now - no different from any religious body who has abandoned its ideals.. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 16 Jan 16 - 01:35 PM New antisemitism is the concept that a new form of antisemitism has developed in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, emanating simultaneously from the far-left, radical Islam, and the far-right, and tending to manifest itself as opposition to Zionism and the State of Israel. The concept generally posits that much of what purports to be criticism of Israel by various individuals and world bodies, is, in fact, tantamount to demonization, and that, together with an alleged international resurgence of attacks on Jews and Jewish symbols, and an increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse, such demonization represents an evolution in the appearance of antisemitic beliefs. The Deep Roots of Anti-Semitism in European Society Manfred Gerstenfeld |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jan 16 - 02:25 PM "Manfred Gerstenfeld" Answering the points put up with accusations of Antisemitic is Antisemitic - however "Manfred Gerstenfeld" "He was an editor of The Jewish Political Studies Review, co-publisher of the Jerusalem Letter/Viewpoints, Post-Holocaust and Anti-Semitism and Changing Jewish Communities" He is part of: "The Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs (JCPA) is an Israeli research institute and public policy think tank devoted to research and analysis of critical issues facing the Middle East. The center is located in Jerusalem.[4] Its research focuses on public diplomacy, foreign policy, international law, paradigms for regional diplomacy, and the connections between local and global terrorism.[4] Dr. Dore Gold, Israel's former ambassador to the UN and former foreign policy adviser to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, headed the Jerusalem Center from 2000[5] to 2015, when he took a leave of absence to become director-general of the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs.[6]" What other opinion (that is what this is) is he going to give Please atop hiding behind the Jewish people to defend atrocities - show they are not atrocities. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 16 Jan 16 - 02:40 PM "The second indicator of the new anti-Semitism is the indictment of Israel and the Jewish people as the embodiment of all evil, including racism, imperialism, colonialism, ethnic cleansing, apartheid and even Nazism." Irwin Cotler |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jan 16 - 02:52 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jan 16 - 02:54 PM Stifling dissent with "antisemitism" - a Jewish view Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 Jan 16 - 03:03 PM The argument is getting a bit viscous & dense & and hard to follow; but it seems time yet again to cite "the 2005 definition of antisemitism by the EUMC {The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia}, regarding the practice of disguised antisemitism masquerading as legitimate criticism of Israel" I repeat that I don't think anyone is setting out to do such a thing here; but I think this definition should always be at the back of the mind in engaging with such topics as that of this thread. ≈M≈ If I had a religion [which thank the lord I've not, sir!], there are two things I should puzzle my head interminably over: 1 {In general: not partic related to this thread} Why God, or Who-evs, couldn't design us a bit more efficiently, to be able to avoid tedious and inconvenient incessant necessity of having to take time out to piss & shit (& make us so prone to be super-embarrassed by so natural an activity at that!); & 2 {arising from this thread} Why the hell he had to manufacture such a plethora of different races & ethnicities, and give each of them a built-in mindset inclined to hate & despise all the others. He really isn't a deity that I can understand how anyone whatever could love when they look around them -- & I'm not saying that to distress anyone. Just how I see things... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jan 16 - 03:05 PM Same source European defininion of Antisemitism Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jan 16 - 03:08 PM Missed the relevant bit "Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel. In utilizing the EUMC definition, it bears emphasizing that at UK Media Watch we support open and honest debate about the Israel/Palestinian conflict including harsh criticism of Israel as long as the criticism of Israel is similar to that leveled against any other nation of the world." Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 16 Jan 16 - 03:32 PM Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Lubavitch Date: 16 Jan 16 - 04:29 PM Stay alive, get a .45 (and move to Scottsdale) {click} |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jan 16 - 04:56 PM " Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." Selective eh what - take the bits of the definition that suit you, reject the bits that don't Why am I not surprised? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 16 Jan 16 - 04:57 PM The future is looking bright: "13,000 teens complete Hamas training camps to emulate 'suicide martyrs'" TOI |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 16 Jan 16 - 09:19 PM If anyone is interested in learning how Fatah terrorists operate in the West Bank, how the small Jewish community in Hebron lives and how the world's press perpetuates the false Palestinian narrative read this account by Daniel Borg, it may open your eyes and your mind. Daniel Borg is a Swede who was actively engaged in Swedish politics, passionately pro-Palestinian and went to join the International Solidarity Movement (ISM). His observations from within the ISM are explosive. Confessions Of A Pro-Palestinian Activist In Hebron 2007 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Jan 16 - 03:33 AM "If anyone is interested in learning how Fatah terrorists operate in the West Bank" Probably about as interested a you are of the massacres of the Arab people by the Israeli regime. You refuse to respond to those, you deny the Arabs the right to continue to live where they have lived for nearly two thousand years, and you are surprised when the Palestinian people hit back. The most despicable aspect to your arguments is you hide behind the Jewish people to defend these crimes - you make them "Jewish" rather than what they are - the crimes of an extremist, right-wing Israeli regime seeking to ethnically cleanse the area in the name of the Jewish people. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves - all of you, without exception. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,R Sole Date: 17 Jan 16 - 03:36 AM You see, what makes many people turn off is this obscene insistence that to oppose the awful abuses of human rights by the Israeli government and military is somehow anti Semitic. Hiding behind the cover of European guilt of generations now dead themselves does more to turn people off to any legitimate cause than any other. The same people are quick to point out that Arabs and Christians are full members of Israeli society with a vote. But when the rotten corrupt government is criticised, the same people play the holocaust card. That is sickening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Jan 16 - 04:14 AM massacres of the Arab people by the Israeli regime. What massacres? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 17 Jan 16 - 05:01 AM "What massacres?" Oh dear Keith - none so deaf "That is sickening." A bit more than that - it is an insult to the memory of those who died in the extermination camps. The families of survivors that I knew all lived my the creed, "never again, to anybody", yet it's happening all over - this time, in the name of the Jewish people, if those here are to be believed - do we really have to take their word for it? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,R Sole Date: 17 Jan 16 - 06:15 AM A rather quick google search citing Mudcat, this subject and some of the contributors sees Keith A of Hertford being taken to task for referring to Palestinian hospitals and schools as legitimate targets when Israeli militants carried out their bombing campaign. I doubt therefore he is capable of knowing what massacres are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:19 AM "A school, for example, becomes a legitimate military target if soldiers are based there. With hospitals, the situation is more complicated since they are permitted to keep armed guards on their grounds. But immunity from attack can be lost if the people or objects are used to commit acts that are harmful to one side in a conflict." http://www.crimesofwar.org/a-z-guide/immunity-from-attack/>Crimes of War So, R Sole, do you condemn Hamas for their war crime of using hospitals and schools for military purposes? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:35 AM "A school, for example, becomes a legitimate military target if soldiers are based there" There was never any evidence that soldiers were based in the thousands of schools, hospitals old peoples homes and occupied houses that were razed to the ground in the random slaughter and it was never claimed that there were. The officials of one home actually informed the Israelis that they were full of elderly patients. The commander instructed that they should stay were they were - then bombarded the place to rubble. The Israelis actually launching rockets from the yard of one occupied schools - but fair's fair, the children were only Arabs. Schools - Human Rights Watch Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:47 AM There was never any evidence that soldiers were based in the thousands of schools, hospitals old peoples homes and occupied houses that were razed to the ground That's a blatant lie but that's to be expected from you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:58 AM Schools - Human Rights Watch You mean that organization in which the person in charge of the Israel file was an avid collector of Nazi memorabilia and frequenter of Nazi chat rooms? Try again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:06 AM As we speak, rockets from Hamas and Islamic Jihad continue to be fired on Israel. I have just seen myself with the Prime Minister all kinds of rockets fired by Hamas on to the heads of all of these people and the neighbourhoods where many people are living. This is quite shocking. And I have seen all the photos and videos and evidence myself. The United Nations position is clear: We condemn strongly the rocket attacks. These must stop immediately. We condemn the use of civilian sites – schools, hospitals and other civilian facilities - for military purposes. No country would accept rockets raining down on its territory – and all countries and parties have an international obligation to protect civilians. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, Tel Aviv (Israel), 22 July 2014 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:20 AM R sole, you chose not to quote anything I actually said about "legitimate targets." You are being dishonest about me. All I ever said on the subject was to explain the Law of Armed Conflict and how it applied. Just facts. massacres of the Arab people by the Israeli regime. What massacres of the Arab people by the Israeli regime? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:26 AM Are you actually dismissing Human Right Watch as a valid source - after you have used it yourself in the past, re. Israel's Blockade of Gaza. The incident you refer to HERE was spread by pro-Israli bloggers, was related to his family's interest in military nterest and was found to be no more than a Israeli regime generated smear campaign that has also targetted the U.N. and a host of human rights organisations. It was a deliberate campaign set up by Israel to undermine Human Rights organisations which were critical of Israeli terrorism. The last of these stunts was an attempt to close The International Court of Human rights, which would leave the world unable to try any International criminals. Jom Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:45 AM This from The Economist, at the time the bloggers campaign was leaked But even his critics admit that he is not an anti-Semite. And though his reports are generally critical of Israel, his memorabilia hobby doesn't seem to inform his work in any way (though no one but Mr Garlasco can know for sure). The blogger who broke the story admits as much, arguing that Human Rights Watch "couldn't notice anything wrong with the way [Mr Garlasco] approached the conflict because, well, that's how they all approach the conflict." Perhaps they all collect Nazi memorabilia too, or perhaps it doesn't matter. Therein lies the problem. The controversy, made relevant by Mr Garlasco's critical reports on Israel, seems to have little bearing on the substance of those reports. If we weren't dealing with the touchy subjects of Israel and the second world war, it would almost be like condemning someone for having a foot fetish. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:46 AM No decent democratic government accuses Israel of massacring Gazans, or anyone else. Just propaganda Jim. Try not to be so gullible. Hamas is recognised to be guilty of massacring Jews with their bus bombings and other indiscriminate attacks. Any outrage over that Jim? Why not Jim? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:54 AM Hamas not only flagrantly disregarded the Law of Armed Conflict as a matter of course as part of its terrorist-army hybrid strategic concept, but rather it abused the very protections afforded by the law for military advantage, putting the civilian population of Gaza at great risk. Situating its operational headquarters in Gaza's main hospital, the entire military machinery of Hamas was embedded in civilian locations, private homes and a plethora of sensitive sites such as medical facilities, mosques and schools. These included facilities run by the United Nations in multiple instances, from which it must be concluded that the relevant UN agencies are either compromised in their relationship with Hamas or have temporarily lost control of the security of their facilities. Many of Hamas's actions clearly amount to serious violations of the Law of Armed Conflict. HIGH LEVEL MILITARY GROUP Oct.2015 AN ASSESSMENT OF THE 2014 GAZA CONFLICT |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 17 Jan 16 - 10:23 AM So, R Sole, do you condemn Hamas Its NOT my fault! It all started, Mommie, when Johnnie hit me back!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Jan 16 - 10:52 AM Hamas not only flagrantly disregarded the Law of Armed Conflict as a matter of course Destruction of schools, hospitals and occupied homes is adhering to the law of armed conflict of course - as is facilitating the massacre of 3.5 thousand refugees, using chemicals to remove legal occupants of land.... and all the other crimes against humanity carried out by Israel and protected by U.S. vetoes!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:01 AM Yup- the "HMLG" - a wholly-owned subsidiary of http://www.friendsofisraelinitiative.org/about-wellcome.php |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:12 AM Jim, Destruction of schools, hospitals and occupied homes is adhering to the law of armed conflict of course The are circumstances where it is allowed. If your enemy commits the war crime of fighting from a civilian area, as Hamas did, and provided that warnings are given and steps taken to minimise civilian casualties, as IDF did, it is allowed. (I pass no opinion on that r sole, I am just stating what the law says.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:14 AM You missed a bit. "HIGH LEVEL MILITARY GROUP" "copyright by 'The Friends of Israel Initiative". The random attacks ta\king place in Israel at present are little different from those carried out by Israeli Freedom Fighters in the 1940s - not a lot of "rules of armed conflict" then, now, or in any guerrilla warfare. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:15 AM HMLG: AN ASSESSMENT OF THE 2014 GAZA CONFLICT General Klaus Dieter Naumann (Germany) is the former Chief of Staff of the Bundeswehr, the German armed forces and served as Chairman of the NATO Military Committee from 1996 to 1999. General Vincenzo Camporini (Italy) is the former Chief of Defence Staff of Italy. He served as Deputy Chief of Defence General Staff and President of the Italian Centre for High Defence Studies before being appointed Chief of Staff of the Italian Air Force and subsequently Chief of Defence General Staff. Lieutenant General David A. Deptula (United States) was the principal attack planner for the Desert Storm coalition air campaign in 1991, served as Director of the Combined Air Operations Center in Afghanistan and served as the first Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (ISR), Headquarters Air Force. Admiral José María Terán (Spain) serves in the Office of Strategic Assessment of the Minister of Defence of Spain. A former Chief of the Joint Staff and Chief of the Strategic Analysis Group, he has also served as Director for Reorganisation of the Spanish Intelligence Service. Major General Andrew James Molan (Australia) served as the Chief of Operations for the Headquarters Multinational Force in Iraq. He is a former Commander of the Australian Defence College and has served as Adviser to the Vice Chief of the Australian Defence Force on Joint Warfighting Lessons and Concepts. Lieutenant General Kamal Davar (India) served as the first Director General of the Defence Intelligence Agency of India. A former Director-General, Mechanised Forces at Army Headquarters, he has held a large number of high ranking command posts in the Indian Army and served on the Indian Military Training Team in Iraq. Brigadier General Alain Lamballe (France) served in the General Secretariat for National Defence as head of the Southeast Asia and Europe sections as well as heading the Central Liaison Mission for Assistance to Foreign Forces. He is the former Director of the Department of Security Cooperation of the OSCE Mission in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Colonel Richard Kemp (United Kingdom) was Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan and has served in Iraq, the Balkans, South Asia and Northern Ireland. He has led the international terrorism team at the UK's Joint Intelligence Committee and served as chairman of the strategic intelligence group for COBRA, the UK national crisis management committee. Colonel Vincent Alcazar (United States) served as a fighter pilot in Operations Desert Storm and Southern Watch as well as various other post 9/11 theatres. He subsequently served in strategic roles at the Pentagon, the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency and at the U.S. embassy, Baghdad, Iraq. Colonel Eduardo Ramirez (Colombia) is an Advisor to the Congress of Colombia who served with the Colombian National Police from 1987 until 2013. He was formerly the Chief of Security Staff for President Uribe of Colombia, as well as Chief of Section at the Judicial and Criminal Directory of the National Police. Ambassador Pierre-Richard Prosper (United States) was Ambassador-at-large in charge of the US Secretary of State's Office of War Crimes Issues. A former Presidential envoy and adviser to the National Security Council he was previously a war crimes prosecutor for the United Nations International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. Rafael L. Bardají is the Executive Director of the Friends of Israel Initiative and National Security Advisor to Former President, José María Aznar. He formerly served in the Government of Spain as the National Security Adviser and in leadership positions in the Ministry of Defence. Davis Lewin is the Rapporteur of the High Level Military Group. He is the Deputy Director and Head of Policy and Research at The Henry Jackson Society, a London based Foreign and Defence Policy think tank. Joseph Raskas is a Research Assistant for The Friends of Israel Initiative and a Fellow at The Public Interest Fellowship. The High Level Military Group was formed in early 2015 with a mandate to examine Israel's conduct of the 2014 Gaza Conflict, in the context of a larger project seeking to address the implications for Western warfare of fighting enemies who disregard the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC) but exploit our own nations' adherence to LOAC for their gain. HLMG members have a wealth of experience at the very highest operational and policy levels as regards the conduct of warfare and its attendant policies. Our purpose is to add a professional military and legal element to this debate, which at times has been ill-informed and politicised, and which is of vital importance to our own armies and alliance partners. The HLMG had unprecedented access to Israel's decision makers, from the Prime Minister and Defence Minister, through the military top- level leadership to individual unit commanders and soldiers as well as civilians affected by the fighting. Former officials who have retired since the conflict took place were also made available. The HLMG was able to extensively examine all pertinent aspects of Israel's conduct, as well as the country's political, military and legal structures. Israel's government and military offered a level of cooperation in seeking to illuminate their actions that is highly unusual in such a context, offering open, clear responses to an examination that went far beyond what our own countries would expect to have to reveal even to allied militaries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:16 AM Greg, please say which of their statements is factually incorrect, bearing in mind the statement of Ban Ki-Moon, "As we speak, rockets from Hamas and Islamic Jihad continue to be fired on Israel. I have just seen myself with the Prime Minister all kinds of rockets fired by Hamas on to the heads of all of these people and the neighbourhoods where many people are living. This is quite shocking. And I have seen all the photos and videos and evidence myself. The United Nations position is clear: We condemn strongly the rocket attacks. These must stop immediately. We condemn the use of civilian sites – schools, hospitals and other civilian facilities - for military purposes. No country would accept rockets raining down on its territory – and all countries and parties have an international obligation to protect civilians." Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, Tel Aviv (Israel), 22 July 2014 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:18 AM Lawfare, the abuse of international norms and procedures and the judicialisation of international institutions to attain strategic goals that cannot be achieved by political and military means, has become a common feature in modern conflicts. It has evolved into a new weapon in the hands of our enemies seeking to constrain and limit the ability of Western armies to pursue our national security interests. The High Level Military Group (HLMG) was formed in early 2015 with a mandate to address the implications for Western warfare of fighting enemies who disregard the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC) but exploit our own nations' adherence to LOAC for their gain. HLMG members discussing the 2014 Gaza Conflict with an IDF soldier on a field visit in southern Israel HLMG members have a wealth of experience at the very highest operational and policy levels as regards the conduct of warfare and its attendant policies. Our purpose is to add a professional military and legal element to debates about warfare in the 21st Century, which at times have been ill-informed and politicised, and which are of vital importance to our own armies and alliance partners. Our work will cover an initial assessment of the 2014 Gaza Conflict, a comparative study examining the conduct of operations by democratic militaries against non-state enemies who do not abide by LOAC, and a final report setting out the challenges and policy prescriptions for the current era of warfare. http://www.high-level-military-group.org/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:27 AM For the word "politicized" in the post of 17 Jan 16 - 11:18 AM read UN, UNWRA, HRW, AI, CCFD, AFPS etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:27 AM Greg, can you substantiate, "HIGH LEVEL MILITARY GROUP" "copyright by 'The Friends of Israel Initiative"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:46 AM Can you read, Keith? If so, DO so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 17 Jan 16 - 12:00 PM I wouldn't even bother Keith, most people are familiar with their tactics by now, if they can't refute the content they try to discredit the messenger and if there is a Jew included....well, that just seals it for them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 17 Jan 16 - 12:07 PM Neither of you have acknowledged that terror attacks on hospitals schools and homes were an everyday occurrence in the lives of Gazans in 2014 There were no terror attacks on hospitals and homes, any targeting of them was because they were being used for military purposes which is permitted under the Law of Armed Conflict. Of course mistakes do happen in the fog of war and these have been acknowledged. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,R Sole Date: 17 Jan 16 - 12:09 PM Mr Hertford. Excuse me. It is never allowed. Not by people who call themselves human. The bombing of schools and hospitals is only ever allowed by those bombing them for their own aims. Disgraceful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Jan 16 - 12:55 PM https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:00 PM "copyright by 'The Friends of Israel Initiative" Which means that the organization commissioned the study and owns the rights to the report. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:01 PM https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/ Amnesty Reports on the 2015 conflict by organisations not commissioned by Friends of Israel Again RTE BBC Haaretz Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:02 PM Excuse me. It is never allowed. Oh RSole, do keep up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:04 PM "Which means that the organization commissioned the study and owns the rights to the report." Quite! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:11 PM So do you think that somehow comprises the findings of the panel of highly qualified military experts? Is that what you are trying to imply here? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:17 PM "So do you think that somehow comprises the findings of the panel of highly qualified military experts? " "experts" are like lawyers - you gets what you pays for. Much prefer the independent ones from Amnesty (which you are refusing to respond to)- just as expert, but without an agenda. Now we'll enter into a "lawyers who sell their books in real gunshops and were born five days ago" battle - can't wait!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:31 PM You don't accept the findings of highly qualified military people on matters of war and imply that they are lying because they were presumably commissioned by Israelis yet you accept the reports of highly politicized NGOs who are funded by interest groups and are not military experts. That says a lot about you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:41 PM R sole, I do not defend the law, I merely explained it for the benefit of those ignorant of it. It should be understood that the Law Of Armed Conflict is the work of the finest minds of the 20th century to humanise conflict, and is fully endorsed by the ICRC. I am sure that an r sole like you could have come up with something much better, but until you do, it is the best we have. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Jan 16 - 01:48 PM The months-long investigation into the war by the High Level Military Group (HLMG), made up of retired generals and defense officials from nine countries, concluded that Israel not only abided by the laws of armed conflict, but far surpassed their requirements. Israel's "knock on the roof" technique, telephone calls and leaflets dropped warning non-combatants to leave the area of impending attacks and missions canceled due to possible civilian casualties represented a far higher level of restraint than other Western armies, the report concluded. The IDF standard, explained one HLMG author, Richard Kemp (former commander of British forces in Afghanistan), would be "a hindrance to Western military expediency". The report also concluded that much Western media commentary on the 2014 war included "stark, unwarranted condemnations of the IDF's conduct that do not accord with our own examination". HLMG blamed the "vast majority of civilian casualties" on Hamas, who "instituted a deliberate policy to cause as many Palestinian civilian deaths as possible in order to wage a PR war against Israel." Such policies, largely ignored by the British media, included the systematic use of human shields "to avert strikes on its military infrastructure embedded in urban Gaza" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Jan 16 - 02:48 PM "High Level Military Group (HLMG), made up of retired generals and defense officials from nine countries," Just the people to consult about the rights and wrongs of bombing civilians General Klaus Dieter Naumann (NATO) Deputy Chief of Defence General Staff and President of the Italian Centre for High Defence Studies was the principal attack planner for the Desert Storm coalition air campaign in 1991 A former Chief of the Joint Staff and Chief of the Strategic Analysis Group, he has also served as Director for Reorganisation of the Spanish Intelligence Service. Every single one of these "experts" are full time establishment military, many associated with a war which locks up terrorist "suspects" and leaves them untried, and locked up in Cuba year after year" - bit like asking General Haig's opinion on the rights and wrongs of WW1, doncha think Keith. The laws ofd armed conflict (or humanity, for most of us Keith) does not allow for the blitzing of schools and hospitals on the unproven claims that they house terrorists, the use of anti-persdoell and chemical weapons in occupied areas and the mass destruction of homes, in some cases, with the occupants still in them. I see othing here of the Israeli death squads who went around picking off survivors after their homes were destroyed or an explanation of why there were so many civilian deaths and casualties - missed those bits, did they. I don't need "experts to tell me such behaviour is wrong, evil, inhuman and constitute Crimes against humanity - my upbringing tells me they are, and if I ever doubted that, I have the reports of human rights bodies to fall back on - never been an issue with you, have they Keith - leftie, bleeding hearts or some such? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Jan 16 - 05:14 PM Just the people to consult about the rights and wrongs of bombing civilians Yes. Exactly the people to consult on legal and illegal warfare. You can wail that the Law of Armed Conflict is unfair to terrorist war criminals, but it remains the best set of rules humanity has ever managed to create to reduce the inhumanity of war. Extremists can not be allowed to win just because they themselves care nothing for the deaths of civilians, cynically hiding behind them and then exploiting their suffering which they are entirely responsible for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:42 PM From Al Jazeera "The areas targeted by the Russian air strikes on Saturday were mostly residential areas and not for ISIL," Ghareb al-Omawi, a media activist from the Sound and Picture group, told Al Jazeera. "Two hospitals were also hit in the air strikes in addition to public places. Several people were also injured and have been taken to hospitals in the suburbs." "Activists say children among more than 40 killed in ISIL stronghold, a day after reports of massacre in Deir Az Zor." How about them Russkies, eh comrades! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Tammet Date: 18 Jan 16 - 02:04 AM Meanwhile, back to a discussion of this new gang of Jewish terrorists..... {click} |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Musket Date: 18 Jan 16 - 02:28 AM I don't drop in too often but it seems worth it, anything to brighten up my day. Skimming through, am I dreaming or is Keith advocating a set of rules for armed conflict as employing some of the best minds? Call me thick, but the only minds worth mentioning would be those trying to avoid such things in the first place? Even if you take it at face value, nobody seems to have given a copy to either Israeli or Palestinian militants. Neither suicide bombers in crowded buses or soldiers aiming machine guns at stone throwing children come under rules by any sane mind. There again, neither do any of the tactics employed in an adjecant thread discussing 100 years ago. Yet the same mindset on this thread is evident on that one. Oh, I get it now.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 18 Jan 16 - 06:36 AM "Yes. Exactly the people to consult on legal and illegal warfare." Commissioned by the friends of Israel - any enquiry into massacres or war crimes must be totally devoid of all prejudicial influence ' "Friends of Israel" says it all. We've been here before - the Israeli have now established the practice of enquiring into their own war crimes and finding themselves not guilty, as they did over their role in the Sabra/Shatila massacre - the independent Redmond Enquiry find them guilty of engineering a massacre of 3,500 refugees, their own Kahan absolves them. Now the world (including those from within Israel) calls for an enquiry into what happened in Gaza and suggests that Israel is answerable to war crimes 'Friends of Israel' commission random military men who absolve Israel. Israel continues to call for the closure of the International Criminal Court. Problem solved. Haaretz ICC Opens Initial Probe Into Possible War Crimes in Palestinian Territories Step could lead to charges against Israeli and Palestinian officials; FM Lieberman calls to dismantle International Criminal Court. Haaretz again Netanyahu Rejects ICC's 'Preposterous' Inquiry Into Possible War Crimes 'To what depth of absurdity has the tribunal sunk?' PM asks, adding that decision to probe possible war crimes in Palestinian territories runs contrary to reasons for which the tribunal was created. Let's see, shall we? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 18 Jan 16 - 08:02 AM "Friends of Israel" says it all. The HLMG had unprecedented access to Israel's decision makers, from the Prime Minister and Defence Minister, through the military top- level leadership to individual unit commanders and soldiers as well as civilians affected by the fighting. Former officials who have retired since the conflict took place were also made available. The HLMG was able to extensively examine all pertinent aspects of Israel's conduct, as well as the country's political, military and legal structures. Israel's government and military offered a level of cooperation in seeking to illuminate their actions that is highly unusual in such a context, offering open, clear responses to an examination that went far beyond what our own countries would expect to have to reveal even to allied militaries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 18 Jan 16 - 05:56 PM "The HLMG had unprecedented access to Israel's decision makers, from the Prime Minister and Defence Minister, through the military top-level leadership to individual unit commanders and soldiers as well as civilians affected by the fighting." Read this report through – with all its implications. All those examples of who was interviewed are Israeli's - no Palestinian victims – not at all (it would be virtually impossible to interview the many thousands made homeless who actually bore the brunt of Israeli terrorism), this report is based entirely on interviews with Israeli military and politicians. No human rights observers, no medical staff, no press representatives – these are the people an honest enquiry goes to for information, not just those who carried out the atrocities that w all saw the result of on our televisions eighteen months ago – the claims in this report are not in any way in any way by the press and media reports we were getting daily, which is a good reason for them not being included. Where's the evidence from 'Medecins Sans Frontieres' who had the job of treating the wounded, or the ambulance drivers who carried off the 2,104 Palestinian dead, including 1,462 civilians - 344 children And 110 women.? An Israeli government official told the BBC that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) had killed 1,000 "terrorists" during the assault on Gaza – mostly civilians and nearly half women and children, it would appear – the ****** figures don't even add up and no evidence of talking to one single witness other than Israelis https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/09/11/israel-depth-look-gaza-school-attacks What the hell else are the Israeli's going to say - "we didn't do it Guv" Such enquiries can take years to put together – the one being carried out by the U.N. started a year ago – this one is a hastily prepared whitewash in defence of Israel from their own description – this took two visits to Israel. This, from the report "Between June and August 2015 HLMG members and staff undertook two extensive fact-finding trips and four additional research trips to assess every aspect of Israel's conduct in the 2014 Gaza Conflict." Two ******* "fact-finding trips to explain the deaths of 1,462 civilians - 344 children And 110 women?, is that all those lives were worth, for crying out loud – that is no way to get at the truth – you could have scribbled something more comprehensive on a beer mat??? That is downright insulting, to the dead and to our intelligence!!! This is little more than evidence hastily gathered by a defending council on behalf of their employers, "The Friends of Israel" – a show-trial in the real meaning of the term. Jim Carroll By the way – this is from the foreword of this "independent report, which doesn't even pretend to be independent – it is actually a statement from "The Friends of Israel – not a report. "No case demonstrates the possibilities for perversion of our current legal system by an adversary better than military operations involving Israel. No matter how effective and lawful the Israel Defense Forces' (IDF) conduct, there is always a barrage of allegations against it. Concepts like "crimes against humanity", "genocide", and accusations in bodies like the UN and the International Criminal Court, are widely and readily used for the purposes of gaining political advantage. The Friends of Israel Initiative (FoII) was founded to defend Israel against delegitimisation campaigns not because we felt a moral obligation or a historical debt to Israel as the State of the Jewish people. Rather, we seek to defend the existence of the State of Israel because in doing so we are defending ourselves and the security and prosperity of the Western world, of which Israel is an integral part" And this: This report forms an assessment of Israel's conduct during the 2014 Gaza Conflict, based on an extensive fact-finding visit to Israel of the High Level Military Group (HLMG) in early June 2015 and several follow-up visits by individual HLMG delegates and staff. TO ISRAEL – WHAT ABOUT A FACT-FINDING VISIT TO GAZA, WHERE THE DAMAGE WAS DONE AND THE MASSACRES TOOK PLACE This "report is an insult!!! All they've done is interview the Israelis who told them, "we didn't do it" – that is the substance of the report – which puts the Kahan report on Sabra/Shatila into context perfectly. Jim Carroll http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/toll-israel-gaza-conflict.html?_r=0 http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.642397 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 18 Jan 16 - 06:02 PM Links Here again And again Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 18 Jan 16 - 06:15 PM Israel's government and military offered a level of cooperation in seeking to illuminate their actions that is highly unusual in such a context, offering open, clear responses to an examination that went far beyond what our own countries would expect to have to reveal even to allied militaries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 18 Jan 16 - 06:56 PM For you edification and entertainment Pallywood Bloopers......enjoy! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 18 Jan 16 - 07:11 PM Israel's government and military offered a level of cooperation in seeking to illuminate their actions Or whitewash them? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Jan 16 - 08:02 PM "Israel's government and military offered a level of cooperation in seeking to illuminate their actions that is highly unusual in such a context, offering open, clear responses to an examination that went far beyond what our own countries would expect to have to reveal even to allied militaries." What? Of course they did, they told them what they wanted them to know Where is there any indication that they checked what they had been told by the Israelis - at the record speed the report was produced, they would not have had time. This was a report on a war - where are the statements from the other side - or the observers - or the medical staff - or the press - or anybody else other than the Israelis - . Are you really suggesting that you can produce a fair report by only interviewing one side of the conflict. The press reports, from Britain, America, from Israel (Haaretz) contradict the report absolutely - you've been given a small number of them - many, many more waiting in the wings, from all over the world. Where is the explanation of the commander telling the occupants of a medical home after he had told them to stay in the building - widely reported in the press, not even mentioned? Or the report from Israeli soldiers describing some of their men picking off survivors struggling over the rubble of their homes - not even mentioned, never mind denied? Or the press reports of Israeli troops launching rockets from yards of occupied schools, or the flechette anti-personnel missiles in built-up areas, or the destruction of homes with families inside... or the hundreds of eye-witness reports of other incidents - not mentioned, not denied, certainly not disproved -NOTHING. The U.N. has taken a year of deliberation on a report of these events so far and there is still no sign of it coming out - this **** report was 'investigated, written up, printed and distributed in a matter of weeks. One fundamental rule of any report such as this is you don't associate yourself with one side or the other and you gather your information from the protagonists of both sides and as many neutral and reliable observers as you can find NOTHING - NOT ONE WORD FROM ANYBODY OTHER THAN THE ISRAELI MILITARY AND POLITICIANS - AND ALL CARRIED OUT FASTER THAN YOU CAN READ AN O HENRY SHORT STORY (usually about three pages long) It is not only a whitewash, it is downright shoddy a#d insulting to the intelligence - they time they took, the witnesses they spoke to or in this case, didn't speak to), the trouble they took getting both sides of the story (by their own admission, " an extensive fact-finding visit to Israel of the High Level Military Group (HLMG) in early June 2015 and several follow-up visits by individual HLMG delegates and staff." ONE TEAM VISIT TO EXAMINE A WAR THAT LASTED - HOW LONG???? Downright insulting, to say the least!!! No wonder they found themselves "not guilty" at Sabra/Shatila Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 19 Jan 16 - 12:27 AM "There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth." (Variously attributed) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jan 16 - 02:03 AM Skimming through, am I dreaming or is Keith advocating a set of rules for armed conflict as employing some of the best minds? The law was formulated by the ICRC in the 1949 Geneva Conventions. Almost all nations have agreed and accepted it, but I am sure Musket and Rag could soon come up with something much better. Call me thick, but the only minds worth mentioning would be those trying to avoid such things in the first place? Call me thick, but the means of ending conflict has been beyond all human minds in history. Perhaps you two could sort that one out too. Even if you take it at face value, nobody seems to have given a copy to either Israeli or Palestinian militants. Israel abides by the law so it probably has got a copy. Jim, Commissioned by the friends of Israel Yes. This report by this august and independent body of the West's senior and most experienced military, was commissioned by the friends of Israel. Had the report been negative I expect they would have sat on it, but they must have been confident it would be positive, as it was. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Jan 16 - 04:36 AM "There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth."" More than that Mike - in this case - where are the victim statements, wqhere are the eyewitness reports, where are the rebuttals of accusations of war crimes. These people didn't even leave the Israeli boardrooms or talk to anybody other than Israelis - or if they did, where are the claims they did. All the gli b statements in the world don't alter those facts. As for Keith's justification of killing civilians - I think words fail us all. What happened to humanity Keith, or your claimed Christianity, or natural justice, or the right to exist..... or all the other things that are supposed to make humans human? THe rules of conflict are a formalised excuse for the taking of human life drawn up by soldiers and politicians - sfa about being a human being Try it sometime, it's quite rewarding. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 19 Jan 16 - 04:49 AM Jim: I think the omissions you numerate would be subsumed under 'the truth'. I take your point however. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jan 16 - 04:49 AM As for Keith's justification of killing civilians I do not justify any killings. All I did was explain the law. Please do not shoot the messenger. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jan 16 - 05:06 AM Jim, why can you never discuss the issues without making it personal? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Jan 16 - 07:58 AM "Jim, why can you never discuss the issues without making it personal?" You appear to have no problem with "Muppet know, nothings", "leftie morons" and a whole string of methods of avoiding arguments Glass houses and stones and all that. Your ongoing and fanatical support for Israeli terrorism is now legendary - wear your medal with pride Keith. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jan 16 - 09:12 AM I support no terrorism, and regard the civilian deaths in Gaza as unjustifiable. The problem is not with international law, which was devised by the Red Cross and accepted by the governments of the world. It is not with those countries that abide by the law, as Israel does but with those who flout it. Hamas flouted the law with its indiscriminate attacks on civilians. As Ki-Moon said, Israel had no choice but to strike back. Hamas also flouted the law by operating from among its civilians so that civilians were inevitably harmed in the inevitable counter strike. I have never called anyone a "moron," but have often been called one by you Jim. "Know nothing" referred to the fact that some people attacked my knowledge of WW1 history without having read any history about it themselves. That is as personal as I get. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Jan 16 - 10:22 AM "Know nothing" referred to the fact that some people attacked my knowledge of WW1 history" Which is non existent and extremely arrogant in assuming that those who don't agree with you are ignorant of the subject. Terrytoon was the only ne wh agreed with you which makes everybody else a no-nothing - bit meglo, don't you think. Your "muppet insult is long standing and somewhat boring - , happy to dig up some more if you want - glass houses, old boy "As Ki-Moon" I really don't care if Moses came down from the mountain with permission for Israel to do what they did - they are under investigation for possible war crimes and would have been decades ago if the U.S. hasn't stopped it. Israel knows that, which id#s why thy have attempted to get the international criminal court closed down and why "Frieds of Israel" commissioned that risible report. Denying massacres didn't happen when they did is supporting terrorism Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jan 16 - 12:27 PM assuming that those who don't agree with you are ignorant of the subject. Nothing written for twenty years disagreed any of my points. None of you even knew that. Nor could you quote anything of recent decades that agreed yours. "Muppet" is not a personal attack. I call my grand-kids muppets, and I have not used it in a post for years. The report is not "risible." Whoever commissioned it, it is the findings of military experts fropm many countries who have worked within the constraints of the Law Of Armed Conflict for all their careers. Those responsible for the deaths are those who hid among the civilian population while carrying out war crimes against Israeli civilians. What else could Israel do to stop them? (Not a rhetorical question. What else could they do?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Jan 16 - 01:45 PM "Nothing written for twenty years disagreed any of my points." Really not going here again Keith - you haven't read everything, if anything written over the last twenty years so you can't possible know that It is this repeated claim along with your dismissing everything written over twenty years ago that has made you the figure of fun you have become. ""Muppet" is not a personal attack" Do yourself a favour and stop lying - you said it regularly as a dismissal of other people's argumets. If you can't lose gracefully, at least show some pity for us lesser beings!!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jan 16 - 02:05 PM Really not going here again Keith - you haven't read everything, if anything written over the last twenty years so you can't possible know that In three years of debate you could find nothing, while I quoted numerous historians dismissing your beliefs as "myths." Do yourself a favour and stop lying - you said it regularly as a dismissal of other people's argumets. I am not lying. "Muppet" is not a term of abuse. It is almost an endearment, and anyway I have not used it for years. This is the most recent I could find, Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 24 Nov 14 - 04:31 AM "Unlike you pair of flag-waggers. I don't dig out 'historians" (or tabloid journalists) to make my case for me " You can't because there are none who believe the shit that you two muppets do. If you want to understand History you go to Historians. I do not use them to "make my case for me" I got my case from them. You two believe that you understand History better than The Historians. That makes you a laughing stock. You two believe that the historians are collaborating in a conspiracy to hide the truth. Even more laughable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Jan 16 - 02:08 PM I suggest you return to the subject before you get this thread closed. Those responsible for the deaths in Gaza are those who hid among the civilian population while carrying out war crimes against Israeli civilians. What else could Israel do to stop them? (Not a rhetorical question. What else could they do?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Jan 16 - 02:59 PM "I suggest you return to the subject before you get this thread closed." You were t6he one who raisd the astronomic I suggest you return to the subject before you get this thread closed. e of your historical knowledge Keith, not me - six mentions inoe thread, two in another. See what I mean about your dishonesty? Those responsible for the deaths in Gaza are those who hid among the "civilian population while carrying out war crimes against Israeli civilians." Those responsible were the ones who used the pretence of hiding "terrorists" hiding among the people to slaughter those people in #order to cull them out of the area. You threw a wobbler once when I suggested you were in favour of slaughtering hostages - now you seem quite comfortable with it. Progess I suppose - not sure in what direction God save us all from 'Christians' Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 19 Jan 16 - 03:42 PM Re. Terrorism, Again (Israel) Meet Morad Bader Abdullah Adais the 16 year old Palestinian murderer who stabbed an Israeli mother of 6 to death -- in front of her children. He has been apprehended by Israeli police. Notice he's still alive, unharmed, without a scratch on him. In fact, it looks like he's chillin' without a care in the world. His father is quoted in the Palestinian press as being, "very proud" of his son. This boy is being hailed by Palestinian leaders and much of the community. He may even get a street named after him in Ramallah somewhere. There is no difference between this mentality and that of ISIS. So, when you hear the media describe what's happening between Israelis and Palestinians as a "conflict"; or hear dishonest politicians call for "calm on both sides", please understand that there is one side that wants peace - Israel. Let this picture of a brutal murderer in custody (and not dead) serve as a reminder. Terrorism, Again (Israel) indeed! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Jan 16 - 07:51 PM "Notice he's still alive, unharmed, without a scratch on him." As are the death squads that roamed the blitz streets picking of survivors, or the officer who ordered patients back into the home then blitzed it with tank fire....... or any of them who slaughtered 1,462 civilians - 344 children And 110 women........ Defence Minister Sharon who was found to be responsible for the Sabra/Shatila massacre of 3.500 refugees was punished by being made Prime Minister of Israel - damned inhuman, if you ask me. Funny thing, justice! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 19 Jan 16 - 08:15 PM please understand that there is one side that wants peace - Israel. That would almost be amusing, BullshitBruce, if it wasn't so disgusting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Moiré Date: 19 Jan 16 - 11:02 PM Defence Minister Sharon (R.I.P.) returned territory - then nearly dying went into a comma. U.S. televangelists claimed Divine punishment (probably more likly he was making peace with G_d knowing he was nearing the end) God save us all from 'Christians' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 19 Jan 16 - 11:17 PM (Not a rhetorical question. What else could they do?) Shoot the terrorists full of holes dump lard on him and throw him in a hole. Question the family, emprison anyone who knew, deport the innocent. Bulldoze the neighborhood and confiscate fifty square miles. This is the only why to deal with Tribal Arabs. (Times of Israel comment) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Jan 16 - 02:06 AM You were t6he one who raisd the astronomic No Jim. You posted a quote from the WW1 thread to make an invalid point. I just refuted it, and you kept it going. Hamas flouted international law with its indiscriminate attacks on civilians. As Ki-Moon said, Israel had no choice but to strike back. Anyone deny that? Hamas also flouted the law by operating from among its civilians, so that civilians were inevitably harmed in the inevitable counter strike. Why does Hamas need to attack Israeli civilians? But for that no Gazans would have been killed at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Jan 16 - 02:11 AM Last Guest, Google can not find your IT quote. Where did you find it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 20 Jan 16 - 02:18 AM It's not a exact quote. It from the stabbing of the Mother of 6 story. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 20 Jan 16 - 04:40 AM "As Ki-Moon said, Israel had no choice but to strike back. Anyone deny that?" Well yes actually – this from The Times of Israel: "Netanyahu: No limit to UN hypocrisy on Gaza PM lambastes Ban Ki-moon for singling out Israel on child casualties in conflict, calling his criticism 'a black day for the UN'" What's your problem with guest's paraphrase Keith, Israeli treatment of Arabs if common knowledge? Bulldozers "You posted a quote from the WW1 thread to make an invalid point." Nore again - this is the start of your diatribe on WW1 - in response to nothing "Know nothing" referred to the fact that some people attacked my knowledge of WW1 history" I think Mike was actually the firs to mention WW1 way, way back Stop making things up - it makes you look more foolish. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Jan 16 - 05:27 AM Jim, you quoted from the WW1 thread, starting the drift, 19 Jan 16 - 07:58 AM . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Jan 16 - 05:39 AM More "Hamas also flouted the law by operating from among its civilians, so that civilians were inevitably harmed in the inevitable counter strike." Not the case - certainly not proven. The International Criminal Court is in the process of investigating whether Israel should stand trial for War Crimes - as with your support for the "Expert" investigation carried out on behalf of "The Friends of Israel", whose "independent investigation team made one visit to Israel (and a couple of later individual visits), interviewed only Israeli politicians and military, did not visit the devestated are and interviewed none of the victims, you are preempting any real independent inquiry in you ongoing support for Israeli terrorism. Even if your claims are in any way true, the protocol on hostage-taking is to take as many measures possible to avoid innocent loss of life - 1,462 civilians - 344 children And 110 women and press reports of attacks on hopitals, schools, old peoples shelters and homes with occupants still in them appear to indicate random, indiscriminate bombardment. You have yet to explain your volte face on killing hostages - first you are against it, now you're not. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Jan 16 - 05:43 AM "Jim, you quoted from the WW1 thread, starting the drift, " Wha!!! My posting from 19 Jan 16 - 07:58 AM . "Jim, why can you never discuss the issues without making it personal?" You appear to have no problem with "Muppet know, nothings", "leftie morons" and a whole string of methods of avoiding arguments Glass houses and stones and all that. Your ongoing and fanatical support for Israeli terrorism is now legendary - wear your medal with pride Keith." Stop making things up. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Dave Date: 20 Jan 16 - 06:29 AM From the Wikipedia entry on Ban Ki-moon: "This is a Korean name; the family name is Ban." Best to refer to him by his full name I think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 Jan 16 - 07:05 AM The correct polite form of address is Mr Ban. Using just "Ban" in writing about him would keep on leading to double-takes and is arguably wrong anyway, so I think Dave is correct in suggesting that we call him Ban Ki-moon. "Ki-moon", "Mr Ki-moon" or "Mr Moon" are all laughably incorrect. Best to have a little respect and check it out before using his name. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 20 Jan 16 - 07:31 AM The first mention of WW1 unsurprisingly came from Keith at 9.12am on the 19th. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Jan 16 - 07:58 AM "unsurprisingly" Now there's a surprise!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 20 Jan 16 - 11:27 AM It is sometimes the weakest members of the Palestinian society who are incited to kill, and then be wounded or killed themselves. It's a tragedy on their side as well that young Palestinians—youth– are brainwashed to give their lives to murder Jews when their violence only ensures that peace will not be found. Where are the voices crying out against this society's abuse of children? Against a society that glamorizes its killers, naming streets after them, celebrating their deaths? Child Abuse: The World Must Stand Up Against the Incitement of Palestinian Youth Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Jan 16 - 11:49 AM "Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed!" Two wrongs don't make a right, but neither does pretending it only happens on one side. Jim, Carroll Abu Khdeir Arson kills child |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Jan 16 - 12:04 PM Just in case you still think it's one sided Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Jan 16 - 03:13 PM guest, The first mention of WW1 unsurprisingly came from Keith at 9.12am on the 19th. Wrong. That was me responding to Jim's quote of 19 Jan 16 - 07:58 AM . He made up the "moron" but "know nothings" was a quote from the just closed WW1 thread and no other. I responded and Jim kept it going. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 20 Jan 16 - 04:28 PM No Keith. You were the first to mention WW1. Jim may have copied from another thread but he made no mention of WW1 that is purely down to YOU. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 20 Jan 16 - 06:32 PM GUEST - 20 Jan 16 - 07:31 AM "The first mention of WW1 unsurprisingly came from Keith at 9.12am on the 19th." Ehmmm NO GUEST - First hint and veiled reference to the recently closed WWI thread: Jim Carroll - 12 Jan 16 - 02:29 PM "Go off and find one of your "real historians" who sell their books in "real bookshops" Second Jim Carroll - 13 Jan 16 - 08:36 AM "Wot - no historians!!!!! I have no doubt they're waiting in the wings to be called." Third GUEST - 14 Jan 16 - 08:13 AM "From the beginning of World War I, however, part of Palestine's land was owned by absentee landlords who lived in Cairo, Damascus and Beirut. About 80 percent of the Palestinian Arabs were debt-ridden peasants, semi-nomads and Bedouins." Fourth Jim Carroll - 17 Jan 16 - 02:48 PM " - bit like asking General Haig's opinion on the rights and wrongs of WW1, doncha think Keith." Fifth GUEST,Musket - 18 Jan 16 - 02:28 AM "There again, neither do any of the tactics employed in an adjecant thread discussing 100 years ago." SIXTH Keith A of Hertford - 19 Jan 16 - 09:12 AM "Know nothing" referred to the fact that some people attacked my knowledge of WW1 history without having read any history about it themselves. That is as personal as I get." Seventh Jim Carroll - 19 Jan 16 - 01:45 PM "Nothing written for twenty years disagreed any of my points." Really not going here again Keith" YOU'VE GOT TO BE JOKING JOM – You and your pals have been baiting at least two threads to try and get it back onto WWI – and as in most things you lot attempt you have failed. Best try something else to get this thread closed as you are being routed by fact, reasoning and logic as usual. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Jan 16 - 07:49 PM "You and your pals have been baiting at least two threads to try and get it back onto WWI " You and Keith - totally on your own, dragged your antiquarian jingoism over at least four threads - you got no support for your arguments - all your own work. Even after you had been pasted to the wall, Keith was safely entrencehed in his 'real histoian' dugout and you had both resorted to making up ridiculous (even for you) statements (prosperous Liverpool, democratic early 19th century Britain and a historical method whereby as a young historian appears the older ones commit HaraKiri and fall on their swords (still get a chuckle from that one) - you continued - Keith even reopened a thread after the other had been closed. Failed - you're 'avin a larf - who did you convince? ""Go off and find one of your "real historians" who sell their books in "real bookshops"" Sod all to do with World War One Terrytoon - Keith started this back in The Irish Famine debates. The guest posting refered to the subject of this thread - Palestine - sod all to do with WW1 arguments All of these quotes you give refer to Keith's dishonest argiong technique - every single one. Keith on the other hand attempted to reopen the WW1 thread and painted himself into a corner. The fit posting attempting to reopen the lost cause of WW1 was Keith's the subject of World War - "Know nothing" referred to the fact that some people attacked my knowledge of WW1 history" - every other was aimed at his disgracefully dishonest behaviour - nice try - no cigar. I'm sure that, now this pair of terrorism deniers have had their combined arses kicked good and proper over Israeli massacres you will now make an effort to divert the discussion to who said what first - nice try - another no cigar. "From the beginning of World War I, however, part of Palestine's land was owned by absentee landlords who lived in Cairo, Damascus and Beirut. About 80 percent of the Palestinian Arabs were debt-ridden peasants, semi-nomads and Bedouins."" Are you seriously suggesting that this was about WW1 and not Israel? ---- Jay-sus!!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Jan 16 - 08:07 PM "A senior official from the Palestinian political party of Mahmoud Abbas (Fatah) recently stated that Adolf "Hitler was not morally corrupt" Bruce - you and Israel have constantly hidden behind accusations of Antisemitsm to defend Israeli atrocities - it is little wonder that soem of the more impressionable Palestinians have taken yours and Isreal's cue that those atrocities are not Israeli but Jewish - your antismitism is bound to instill antisemitism in others. Following the invasion into Gaza before last, prominent figures in Israel were demanding that all Palestinians should have the electricity and water cut off and they should be driven into the desert to let their Muslim neighbours take care of them. You have constantly told us that the Arabs have no right to their territory and have said they should be driven out. Wiggle away, but you have not responded to one single example of Israelis murdering Palestinians Wonder whether you are going to argue that the baby who was burned to death in the Israeli arson attack was a member of the Hitlet Youth. What kind of people are you!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 20 Jan 16 - 08:30 PM Jom I have very little interest in anything you say on any subject as experience has shown me that it is basically all falls into one or more of the following categories: 1: Made up shit 2: Baseless biased bigotry fueled from a well of anglophobia that defies description 3: Unsubstantiated newspaper reports 4: Unverifiable "quotes" that no-one else has ever heard. When all these have had holes shot in them and your arguments had been destroyed you resort to throwing out baseless allegations. Carry on whinging Jom, but in 1948 it was Egypt and Jordan who invaded and stole "Palestinian land" (Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem). Now did either the Egyptians and the Jordanians "give that land to the Arabs of Palestine in 1948? Did they heck as like - what they did do was imprison self same Palestinian Arabs in refugee camps, ensure that they lived their lives in poverty because that is what suited the pan-Arabic cause. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Jan 16 - 02:32 AM Guest, Jim may have copied from another thread but he made no mention of WW1 He quoted from the just closed WW1 thread, accusing me of indulging in the kind of personal abuse he routinely employs. I just explained why it was not. It was a factual description of their absence of any knowledge of recent (twenty years!) work on WW1 history. Jim, The International Criminal Court is in the process of investigating whether Israel should stand trial for War Crimes Is it? Everyone knows what IDF strategy was, so what is there to investigate? In war there are always war crimes committed at unit and sub unit level, and that may be the investigation, and I hope any culprits are punished. International law is there to minimise civilian suffering. There is no question that Hamas flouted that law. You can see missiles and mortars being fired indiscriminately at civilians, from civilian occupied areas. But for those war crimes there would be no civilian deaths in Gaza. Why do they have to attack Israeli civilians at all? That is the cause of all this suffering. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jan 16 - 04:15 AM "Everyone knows what IDF strategy was, so what is there to investigate?" Then why not drop them a line explaining the situation and tell them too ask you if they need clarification on anything and save themselves all that time and money? Don't be stupis Keith, if you think the death of 1,462 civilians - 344 children And 110 women doesn't need investigation and can be settled by asking the IDF why they did it, you are beyond help. 'The Friends of Israel' relised it needed investigation; that's why they commissioned an enquiry and mocked-up a report absolving Israel. The U.S. have always realised that Israel has been breaking International Laws in their treatment of Arabs - that's why they have been forced to use their veto so many times to protect them from prosecution Obama was so appalled at what happened in Gaza that he threatened to withdraw the protection of the American veto. Israel realises that their actions breached international laws - that's why they have attempted to get the International Criminal Court closed. We all know that an enquiry is necessary - we saw it on our televisions and read it in our newspaper daily throughout the period that the slaughter and destruction was taking place. Since the Friends of Israel whitewash came up I've been poking around some past evens. Th Kahan investigation held by Israel to absolve itself in a similar fashion - no evidence of proper research - just politicians and soldiers explaining why they allowed the massacre to happen. Similarly, the Jenin massacre that wasn't- based mainly on the statement of an American military man who declared it wasn't a massacre. Israel has powerful political allies who have spent much time and effort keeping them from being prosecuted for war crimes and atrocities. Hopefully, this was a far too public display of international criminality to get them off the hook on this occasion. "You can fool some of the people some of the time" I see Terrytoon hasn't been taking his pills again! Jim Carroll Rafah U.N. report Jerusalem Post (can't Clickie it) http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/ICC-opens-inquiry-into-possible-war-crimes-committed-by-Israel-in-Palestinian-territories-387988 Human Rights Watch |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Jan 16 - 04:42 AM 'The Friends of Israel' relised it needed investigation; that's why they commissioned an enquiry and mocked-up a report absolving Israel. Yes, but there was nothing mocked up about the report. Top military leaders, all from democratic countries, and not a Zionist or even a Jew amongst them. It was Hamas who flouted International Law, which put their own civilians in harms way and whose consequent suffering they cynically exploited for propaganda. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Jan 16 - 04:54 AM Jim, Similarly, the Jenin massacre that wasn't- based mainly on the statement of an American military man who declared it wasn't a massacre. That dishonesty merits a dedicated post Jim. The UN report to the Secretary General noted "Palestinians had claimed that between 400 and 500 people had been killed, fighters and civilians together. They had also claimed a number of summary executions and the transfer of corpses to an unknown place outside the city of Jenin. The number of Palestinian fatalities, on the basis of bodies recovered to date, in Jenin and the refugee camp in this military operation can be estimated at around 55."[79] While noting the number of civilian deaths might rise as rubble was cleared, the report continued, "nevertheless, the most recent estimates by UNRWA and ICRC show that the number of missing people is constantly declining as the IDF releases Palestinians from detention."[4] Human Rights Watch completed its report on Jenin in early May, stating "there was no massacre," but accusing the IDF of war crimes,[80] and Amnesty International's report concluded "No matter whose figures one accepts, "there was no massacre."[1] Amnesty's report specifically observed that "after the IDF temporarily withdrew from Jenin refugee camp on April 17, UNRWA set up teams to use the census lists to account for all the Palestinians (some 14,000) believed to be resident of the camp on April 3, 2002. Within five weeks all but one of the residents was accounted for."[81] A BBC report later noted, "Palestinian authorities made unsubstantiated claims of a wide-scale massacre,"[15] and a reporter for The Observer opined that what happened in Jenin was not a massacre |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jan 16 - 05:12 AM Doesn't make any difference Keith - all combatants exaggerate their figures. An Israeli spokesman during the Gaza massacres claimed to have killed 1000 "terrorist" - work it out for yourself. What the Observer "opined" is immaterial - the number of people slaughtered by 1000 heavily armed Israeli teoop at Jenin constituted a massacre to ordinary human beings. It has become fashionable to refer to all opposition to Israeli terrorism as "terrorism". Whatever we may personally think of Hamas, they are the only ones standing between the Palestinian people being ethnically cleansedd and slaughters and their persecutors. Counties with a record of war criminality themselves, like the U.S. have made sure that the Palestinians have no outside support from politicians in 'The Free West'. When push comes to shove, there is little difference between Hamas and the Israeli Freedom Fighters of the 1940s Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jan 16 - 05:18 AM I've usually avoided putting up what the Arab Press has to say on these matters, but maybe it's time they were given a voice in these arguments. This from The Arab News that I came across the day before yesterday. Arab News It was be good to hear a response to what is being said rather than the old usual of who is saying it. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 21 Jan 16 - 05:43 AM Keith, He could of accused you of being a bed wetter but he did not mention WW1, you did that. Take responsibility for your own actions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 21 Jan 16 - 05:47 AM Having read through the contributions to this thread looking at references both veiled, oblique and direct to WW1 there appeared to be a great deal of wittering on about "land theft" by Jom the infallible and in support of this Jom was awfully keen on people looking at maps. Now Jom wasn't all that keen on maps in the past especially when asked to produce maps from either the Palestine Authority/Hamas/Fatah/Islamic Jihad/The Muslim Brotherhood/Hezbollah showing the boundaries and borders of this "Two State" solution they say that they are fighting for. Jom has a bit of trouble producing such a map you see as no such map exists, as NONE of those "organisations" have any desire at all to embrace even the remotest possibility of a "Two State" solution, they didn't in 1937, they didn't in 1947 - no doubt Jom can come out with some highly implausible reason for that that has nothing to do with statements about "driving the Jews into the sea" and "wiping Israel off the map". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Jan 16 - 06:27 AM Guest, Keith, He could of accused you of being a bed wetter He accused me of resorting to his style of personal attack when I referred to people who knew nothing of recent WW1 history as "know nothings." I just refuted it, making no other comment on the war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jan 16 - 06:34 AM ""Two State" solution" The Arabs have proposed a solution based on returning to the 1967 borders - that is not acceptable to Israel - simple as that. The constant factor in this conflict has been the ongoing seizure of Palestinian land backed by military force. U.N. report Until the disputed territories become undisputed, there can be no solution. The Palestinians would have to be out of their minds to accept anything less, there are already 6.5 million Palestinian refugees in the world today without adding to them. I "witter on" about land theft because the stealing of Palestinian land is now an increasing act by expansionist Israel. The reality of expansionism The reality again Israel has refused to set borders because, it claims, the Palestinians would not accept any borders - the truth is, that they will not accept borders the Israelis insist on. Israel's demands Sort of like a burglar saying "we won't give you back what we've nicked, but if you agree not to make trouble we won't come back". What the Palestinians want can be found here Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jan 16 - 06:36 AM For crying out loud Keith, give it a rest - you've "lost" (to borrow your own phrase Jim Carrroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 21 Jan 16 - 06:52 AM I really don't care about the reason. You accused Jim of mentioning WW1, he did not, you did. I seem to recall reading a post of the YAY thread when again you brought up WW1. Take responsibility for your own actions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Jan 16 - 07:57 AM Read Teribus' post 20 Jan 16 - 06:32 guest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jan 16 - 08:27 AM "Read Teribus' post 20 Jan 16 - 06:32 guest." Read it - answered it - it's a load of crap. Now how about you reading and responding to the the load of links outlining Isreael's behaviour - are you waiting for your "real historian" to get back to you or just leaving a big enough gap to claim that nothing ha been put up that contradicts your claims? Aswer the points - they are there for the knocking down by your claimed superior intellect. Yours Muppet Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 21 Jan 16 - 08:49 AM The current wave of terrorism is not about a lack of jobs, a poor economy, or any of the other excuses we've heard. Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh declared just Tuesday that the motive behind the current wave of violence is "jihad." "This intifada is not the result of despair. This intifada is a jihad, a holy war fought by the Palestinian people against the Zionist occupation. Only a holy war will drive the occupier out of Palestine," Haniyeh said. Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jan 16 - 09:17 AM "Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed!!" As you say "indeed" Your quote comes from pro-Israeli newspaper, Israel Hayom (history below Israel Hayom was launched on 30 July 2007 by American casino magnate Sheldon Adelson. At that time, the newspaper competed directly with Israeli, another free daily previously co-run by Adelson. The same year, Maariv editor Dan Margalit left the newspaper to write for Israel Hayom. A weekend edition was launched in October 2009. In 2014, it was believed that Adelson invested in total at least $50 million in Israel Hayom." The speaker quoted is Ismail Haniyeh, a politician who is not, as described in the article "a political leader", but has been dismissed from his post and has been denied re-entry into Gaza - his views are nobody's but his own Don't suppose you are going to respond to any of the facts either. You must have a terrible headache trawling the net for insignificant opinions. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 21 Jan 16 - 09:24 AM Anything that putz and gonif Sheldon Adelson has to say is not worth listening to - piece of dreck that he is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Jan 16 - 09:45 AM Jim are you waiting for your "real historian" to get back to you or just leaving a big enough gap to claim that nothing ha been put up that contradicts your claims? Nothing was put up to contradict my claims. Plenty was put up supporting them and calling your old beliefs "myths." Now how about you reading and responding to the the load of links outlining Isreael's behaviour . Your Arab News link was to something written in April 2002 before the UN and other agencies had proved that it was all lies. You are so gullible Jim. The enemies of Israel lie and lie, and you suck it all up without question. Human Rights Watch completed its report on Jenin in early May, stating "there was no massacre," and Amnesty International's report concluded "No matter whose figures one accepts, "there was no massacre." Within five weeks all but one of the residents was accounted for."[81] A BBC report later noted, "Palestinian authorities made unsubstantiated claims of a wide-scale massacre" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 21 Jan 16 - 09:57 AM This 60 Minutes segment exposes how haters like Carroll are so easily duped by the amateurish propaganda churned out by Pallywood. It includes a clip of a "corpse" being carried away on a bier from the Jenin "massacre". The "corpse" falls off the bier twice and immediately jumps back on. It doesn't take much to stir hatred in haters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 21 Jan 16 - 10:21 AM how haters like Carroll are so easily duped by the amateurish propaganda Presumably the thousands upon thousands of Jewish Israelis who oppose the actions of the Government of Israel are also so duped, Beardie? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jan 16 - 10:22 AM "Nothing was put up to contradict my claims. Plenty was put up supporting them and calling your old beliefs "myths." Yeah Keith - you've told us this a hundred times - nobody believes you. All "ignormous Muppet" eh - ah well. I really don't know enough about the enquiry into Jenin to contradict anybody, - I know there were reports of Israelis bulldozing homes with families still in them. My point was, and remains, that the recent fiasco of a report on Gaza has called into question how all of these reports are carried out. The Arab claim is that Israel had the right to select who served and who didn't on the enquiry team. That was certainly the case in Gaza, where only Israeli politicians and military men were interviewed. It was also the case in Sabra/Shatila when the Israelis own Kahan report was totally contradicted by the Redmond Report, which found that Israel was guilty of war crimes. Israel does not favour independent enquiries to the extent that it wants the International Criminal Court closed down, which would mean, of course, there would be no way of bringing Isis to justice - it is putting its own self-interest before that of the rest of the world. Whenever the Arab report was written, Israel's behavior has borne out the accusations made. Israel is a terrorist state with U.S. backing that is beginning to crumble. You have never once responded to any Human Rights accusation,(not your thing- human rights) All of them without exception condemn Israel - you prefer to believe the politicians - there's a word for that you know "Everything in the state". The Government is supreme and the country is all-encompassing, and all within it must conform to the ruling body, often a dictator." Benito Mussolini's definition of fascism Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 21 Jan 16 - 10:57 AM the thousands upon thousands of Jewish Israelis who oppose the actions of the Government of Israel There are presumably some Israelis who oppose some of the government's actions just as in all other democratic states. This is normal and healthy in democratic systems unlike, may I point out, in Israel's neighbours where opposing the government gets you killed quickly, if you're lucky. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Brian May Date: 21 Jan 16 - 11:09 AM Drop in time again. . . See you guys are all getting on well still . . . Hi Musket! Nice to put a face to a name (Strummers). BFN |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jan 16 - 11:13 AM "This is normal and healthy in democratic systems unlike, may I point out, in Israel's neighbours where opposing the government gets you killed quickly, if you're lucky." It can get you locked up for life in Israeel - ask Mordechai Vanunu. Israeli is noted for carrying out assassinations of those they don't like You pair of David Irvings really aren't going to respond to Israel's being condemned for terrorism - are you? Debating with you is like ten-pin-bowling - you put 'em up, we'll knock them down NEXT Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 21 Jan 16 - 11:34 AM Vanunu was a PROTESTER ? you really are desperate Jim. I suggest you read a bit more about him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 21 Jan 16 - 11:53 AM There are presumably some Israelis who oppose some of the government's actions No, Beardie, not "presumably" but actually. And No, Beardy, not "some" but multiple thousands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 21 Jan 16 - 12:02 PM not "some" but multiple thousands. Are you sure it's not billions? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 21 Jan 16 - 12:12 PM Something to ponder, written by a friend, who is an Arab BTW: Inside the minds of racists: the "war crimes" accusers of Israel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jan 16 - 12:32 PM "Vanunu was a PROTESTER ? you really are desperate Jim. I suggest you read a bit more about him." I know exactly who Vanunu was - he is my hero - when Israel fell into the hands of the right wing he grew uneasy about them having nuclear weapons so he made us aware of the fact. Israel attempted to encourage South Africa to become nuclear facilitated - such people need to be exposed so they can be constantly monitored. Personally I will be eternally grateful that be blew the whistle on these bastards. As far as protesters are concerned, the Palestinians are protesters objecting to their homes being stolen and their people being murdered in their thousands and we know what happens to them - they get murdered in their thousands a href="http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.585842">Haaretz AMNESTY More While I'm at it MoreSuppression Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 21 Jan 16 - 12:50 PM No, Jim, you do not know.... but I am not surprised that he is your hero. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Jan 16 - 12:52 PM Jim, Yeah Keith - you've told us this a hundred times - nobody believes you. But still, you could find nothing written in twenty years that agrees with your old beliefs, but I posted many historians who called them myths. I know there were reports of Israelis bulldozing homes with families still in them. Yes, and "eye witness" reports of bodies trucked away, but it was all lies. contradicted by the Redmond Report, which found that Israel was guilty of war crimes. Jim Carroll - PM Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:45 AM "Not true." The Redmond Enquiry found Israel guilty either "directly or indirectly" of the Sabra/Shatila massacre - guilty as that Yes Jim, and Israel accepts indirect responsibility as the authority in Lebanon at the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 21 Jan 16 - 01:14 PM Are you sure it's not billions? Yes, I am, Beardie. Its in the multiple thousands, as can be documented with very little effort. By the way, I suppose those Jewish Israelis who oppose the actions of the Israeli government are also anti-Semites, right?. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jan 16 - 01:37 PM "But still, you could find nothing written in twenty years that agrees with your old beliefs, but I posted many historians who called them myths." The pills Keith - the pills!! "Yes, and "eye witness" reports of bodies trucked away, but it was all lies." Doesn't make any difference that, with its record of terrorism and rigging its enquiries Israel is not to be trusted - we saw Israel's terrorist activities and yet iy#t declared itself not guilty on the grunds of a rigged enquiry - never again "The Redmond Enquiry found Israel guilty either "directly or indirectly" of the Sabra/Shatila massacre - guilty as that" Hate to be the bearer of bad news but whatever way you read it - that's guilty one way or another. Israel facilitated the massacre - it provided transport for the killers, opened the gates for them and left them at it for three days - it even provided illumination so they could continue their slaughter through the night. When the slaughter was over they drove the killers away, provided bulldozers to conceal the dead and eventually built a stadium over the mass graves. Eye witnesses swore that soldiers stood by while the killing was taking place and refused to help. Every bit of this was covered by the Redmond enquiry and/or eye-witness statements (including from Israeli soldiers on the ground - the experiences of one of them was made into a film. It was established beyond doubt - the only bit Redmond didn't establish was Israel's possible hands-on involvement and that's far from unreasonable given their record of slaughter To add icing to the cake, the man held as being overall responsible was made Prime Minister - talk about rubbing the world's nose in it - you'd think they believed they had God on their side - oh, some of them do, don't they? Now, which part of that is "not guilty"? We really are done here Keith - you are trying to appease too many atrocities at the one time. Sit back and drink your cocoa and maybe I'll read you a story before you go to bed. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 21 Jan 16 - 01:59 PM Its in the multiple thousands, as can be documented with very little effort. So what, I'm sure that multiple millions in the US oppose Obama's actions and policies. That just shows how fortunate we are to live in a democracy where leaders are put into office by the vote of a majority and we have the freedom to oppose them if we wish. Would that Israel's enemies had the same rights, the Middle East would be better for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 21 Jan 16 - 02:07 PM So what, So what? Fascinating, Beardie. You really are a some king of a jackass, aintcha?. Now, that being said, what are your answers to the questions posed on 21 Jan 16 - 10:21 AM & 21 Jan 16 - 01:14 PM ?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 21 Jan 16 - 02:19 PM what are your answers to the questions 42 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Jan 16 - 02:34 PM Eye witnesses swore that soldiers stood by while the killing was taking place and refused to help. Like the "eye witnesses" at Jenin, and the nurse "eye witnesses" on the MV Marmara who saw bodies thrown over the side. All liars. You Redmond Report would not say that Israel was "directly responsible." Israel has always accepted indirect responsibility. It is only the lying enemies of Israel who say it is guilty of any massacres. No respectable democracy does. Try not to be so gullible Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jan 16 - 04:11 AM "Like the "eye witnesses" at Jenin, and the nurse "eye witnesses" on the MV Marmara who saw bodies thrown over the side. All liars." That is as squalid and as desperate as it gets Keith - all the witnesses were liars Ellen Siegal is an American Jewish nurse who was present at the massacre - she is a "liar" because her story doesn't corroborate the account given by the regime that has led to the present state of affairs in Israel that has not long perpetrated the massacre of 1,462 civilians - 344 children And 110 women "You Redmond Report would not say that Israel was "directly responsible." In your own words: "The Redmond Enquiry found Israel guilty either "directly or indirectly" of the Sabra/Shatila massacre - guilty as that" You have opted for "indirectly responsible" on the basis that all the witnesses were "liars" Hope you never get to serve on jury duty in a British court Keith Sickening! It is only the lying enemies of Israel who say it is guilty of any massacres. And that ends the official announcement from the Israeli terrorist regime "No, Jim, you do not know.... but I am not surprised that he is your hero." Then perhaps you might enlighten me Lilo - or is this to be yet another of your hit-and-run visits? Jim Carroll "ELLEN SIEGEL: I think what should happen to him is what has happened in our history, in Jewish history. Ever since I was a child, I have learned that what happened during the Holocaust happened because people were silent, people did not speak up. People allowed bad things to happen to other people and did not do anything about it. We should be the last people on Earth that should allow that to happen. Simon Wiesenthal continues and the Jewish agencies continue to look for Nazi war criminals, and indeed they should, and bring them to justice. Ariel Sharon is a war criminal. And the legal aspects of this, I understand, as a non-legal person, put him in that category. He allowed innocent people to be murdered. He did nothing to protect it. He knew that they were the sworn enemy of the Palestinians. And so, he should be tried." "AMY GOODMAN: That was Ellen Siegel, the nurse who worked in the Sabra camp at the time of the massacre in 1982. Professor Rashid Khalidi, also with us, your relative headed that hospital called Gaza Hospital?AMY GOODMAN: That was Ellen Siegel, the nurse who worked in the Sabra camp at the time of the massacre in 1982. Professor Rashid Khalidi, also with us, your relative headed that hospital called Gaza Hospital?" Chomsky |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 22 Jan 16 - 04:55 AM It,s HiLo Jiim . I believe I have always called by your chosen name. I would appreciate the same courtesy, it is what grown ups do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jan 16 - 05:43 AM And I would appreciate a reply Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jan 16 - 05:45 AM Sorry - didn't finish that And I would appreciate a reply - that's what honest people do Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 22 Jan 16 - 05:57 AM To what question need I rely Jim ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jan 16 - 07:08 AM "To what question need I rely Jim ?" Presume you mean reply. Re Vannunu "you really are desperate Jim. I suggest you read a bit more about him" I replied: "Then perhaps you might enlighten me Lilo - or is this to be yet another of your hit-and-run visits?" You know this - that's what you responded to with a plea that I used you chosen name You and others have referred to me as "Carroll", "leftie", "your mob" and numerous other things - no problem - all part of the cut and thrust of lively debate - learn to live with it. Truth to tell, I don't have a great deal of respect for those who indulge in hit-and-run sniping - not helpful and somewhat trollish. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 22 Jan 16 - 07:13 AM Jim, Nurse Siegel did not see anyone massacred. She saw a small group of bodies afterwards. squalid and as desperate as it gets Keith - all the witnesses were liars The Jenin and Marmara witnesses were liars or made to lie. It is a tractic you should at least be aware of instead of swallowing every story without question. You have opted for "indirectly responsible" on the basis that all the witnesses were "liars" No. It is Israel's side of the story. They were indirectly responsible because they were the controlling authority in Beirut at the time, but did not participate or collude in the massacre but did end it. Redmond did not show them to have been "directly responsible" leaving it open. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jan 16 - 08:10 AM For crying out loud Keith Nurse Seigal was there for the duration of the massacre; far from seeing only "a small heap of bodies" she and her fellow medical staff treated them as they were brought in, talked to them, viewed the events from the top of the hospital (illuminated by Israeli flares throughout the three nights), were herded through the streets through the piles of bodies by the killers, expecting to meet with the fate of the victims (included in her testimony), witnssed the bulldozers brought in to dig the mass graves and finally, corresponded with an Israeli soldier she had seen from the top of the hospital. Her experiences were thought important enough for her to have been interviewed by the Kahan Whitewash Committee. What kind of a creature are you to go to such lengths to distort the account of an eye-witness in order to defend this massacre? You included Nurse Seigal in your list of "liars" - whatever happened in Jenin has nothing to do with this massacre. ONCE AGAIN YOU HAVE TAKEN IT ON YOURSELF TO DENY WHAT NOBODY ELSE HAS EVER DONE - WHO ELSE HAS EVER CALLED NURSE SEIGAL A LIAR? "It is a tractic you should at least be aware of instead of swallowing every story without question." During the recent Gaza massacres an Israeli spokesman claimed that the Israelis killed 1,000 terrorists - that has never been repeated - it was a lie - politicians and military men lie to further their cause. You supported the "Friends of Israel" farrago of a report - you swallow it hook, line and sinker, without question; since it has been exposed as the shambles that it was, you have remained silent on it - ....you should at least be aware of instead of swallowing every story without question. "No. It is Israel's side of the story." Exactly - it was the defence of a regime that is fighting desperately to avoid being brought to book for war crimes and atrocities. In the past they have relied on the U.S. to keep them from bing tried - after Gaza, Obama has told them they could not rely on America's support (one of your "respectable democracies") "Redmond did not show them to have been "directly responsible" leaving it open." Redmond did not "leave it open" - he said they were guilty of one or the other - since the events it has been shown they were possibly guilty of both - ye witnesses (whoops "liars") have placed them actually at the scene. One woman described how she appealed to an Israeli soldier as she was being dragged away to be raped - he turned his back on her. These people behaved like savages and you with all your Lord Haw-Haw enthusiasm, defend that savagery. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 22 Jan 16 - 08:52 AM Nurse Siegel said this. "The section on Direct Responsibility also refers to us. It reads, "When the group of doctors and nurses met IDF officers, they made no complaint that a massacre had been perpetrated in the camps. When asked why they had not informed the IDF officers about the massacre, they replied they had not known about it. The fact that the doctors and nurses who were in the Gaza Hospital -- which is proximate to the site of the event and where persons wounded arrived -- did not know about the massacre but only about isolated instances of injury, also shows that those who were nearby but not actually inside the camps (a reference to the IDF) did not form the impression that a massacre of hundreds of people was taking place." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 22 Jan 16 - 09:04 AM She saw a small group of bodies afterwards. Who were doubtless beamed down by Scotty from the Enterprise, right Professor? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 22 Jan 16 - 09:05 AM And she saw no bodies being buried. Just a bulldozer clearing ground by the entrance to the camp in full view of the main road. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 22 Jan 16 - 09:07 AM Greg, they were obviously victims of the massacre. What is your point? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jan 16 - 09:20 AM You have done your usual trick of taking a small slice of the massive amount of evidence and what she has written to back your support ofg terrorism - you have given an unlinked quote You have just called Nurse Seigal a liar - I ask again - who else has ever made such a claim? - anywhere Israelis - the Israeli lobby - who? A failure to respond to this question will confirm what we already know - that you make things up on behalf of terrorism Yopu are now running away from your claim that Redmond left it open - hao can (using your own words) "The Redmond Enquiry found Israel guilty either "directly or indirectly" of the Sabra/Shatila massacre" possibly be described as "leaving it open"? He said they were guilty of one or the other - it transpired they were possibly guilty of both - we will probably never know which as the Yanks vetoed them being tried - we can make up our own minds - Human Rights groups and honest human beings, including Israelis all over the planet believe them to be guilty - given their track record - that'll do for me. One more time - Ellen Seigal is a liar - sez who? Jim Carroll By the way, you claim Israel has never committed massacres - Wiki lists four definite ones on Palestinian territory - the article appeals for more information. The number of assassinations carried out by Israeli security forces makes interesting reading too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 22 Jan 16 - 09:27 AM Jim Could you please put a link to Nurse Segals testimony, I'm struggling to find anything pertinent on the net. Thanks |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 22 Jan 16 - 09:38 AM I do not call Nurse Siegel a liar. She saw no-one massacred or buried. She saw bodies beside the road. Some were old men but no women or children. Ne evidence of a massacre. There had been fighting in the camp. Here is her testimony. http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/79P9.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 22 Jan 16 - 09:40 AM "The Redmond Enquiry found Israel guilty either "directly or indirectly" of the Sabra/Shatila massacre" possibly be described as "leaving it open"? It leaves it open as directly or indirectly responsible. It does not state that they were directly responsible, and Israel accepts indirect responsibility. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jan 16 - 10:25 AM "I do not call Nurse Siegel a liar." Having been given her statement -= you imply she is. "She saw no-one massacred or buried." No-one actually say the massacre - she and her colleagues heard it and she treated victims who told than what was going on. On the basis of eye witness accounts from both victims and Israeli soldiers who were there, the Redmond enquiry found Israel "either "directly or indirectly" of the Sabra/Shatila massacre" "Ne evidence of a massacre. There had been Ne evidence of a massacre. There had been fighting in the camp WHAT!!!! You are now implying that there was no massacere but the deaths were due to "Ne evidence of a massacre. There had been fighting in the camp" What are you on Keith? "It leaves it open as directly or indirectly responsible." Redmond does not leave guilt open - he says they were guilty of either one or the other You are deliberately twisting You are lying about this - you have never read the "Redmond Report" - have you Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 22 Jan 16 - 10:27 AM Jim can you provide a link to the Redmond report. Thanks |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jan 16 - 10:43 AM Guest - just been trying something out. The "Redmond Report" Keith has been interpreting so creatively doesn't exist- the independent report that found Israel guilty of either participating in or facilitating was actually headed by Sean McBride - it is 'The McBride Report' - shouldn't have any trouble finding it. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jan 16 - 11:20 AM The McBride enquiry is now only on Jstor, a subscribers only site, as far as I can make out – a couple of years ago it was freely on-line. In 1983, a commission chaired by Seán MacBride, the assistant to the UN Secretary General and President of United Nations General Assembly at the time, concluded thatIsrael, as the camp's occupying power, bore responsibility for the violence.[19] The commission also concluded that the massacre was a form of genocide A few of interesting links here: Permission to Narrate Action Alert Archives A preventable massacre Israel misled and bullied U.S. Israel's systematic harassment of US Marines Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 22 Jan 16 - 01:55 PM Having been given her statement -= you imply she is.(a liar) No I do not. I admire her for her work and her honesty. She and others from her hospital told the Kahan Enquiry that they did not know there had been a massacre. They heard nothing to suggest one. The refugees who sought refuge in the hospital BEFORE the massacre expressed fears of what the Phalange would do to them because Palestinians had recently committed atrocities and massacres in their villages. (No international outcry over murdered Christians of course.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 22 Jan 16 - 01:59 PM The "Redmond Report" Keith has been interpreting so creatively doesn't exist I only referred to the quote you provided Jim. Here it is again, Jim Carroll - PM Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:45 AM "Not true." The Redmond Enquiry found Israel guilty either "directly or indirectly" of the Sabra/Shatila massacre - |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 22 Jan 16 - 02:29 PM I do not believe that I have ever refered to you as "Carroll". As I say, I would appreciate the courtesy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Jan 16 - 03:03 PM "I do not believe that I have ever refered to you as "Carroll". As I say, I would appreciate the courtesy."! And |I would appreciate an explanation of your dismissal of my post regarding Vannunu I believe your past behaviour leaves in doubt whether any courtesy is due to you - you have shown little for me in the past. "If you can't stand the heat" as they say "The Redmond Enquiry found Israel guilty either "directly or indirectly" of the Sabra/Shatila massacre -" No such thing as "the Redmond Enquiry" Keith - I made it up, so how can you claim what it said, which you did. The McBride Enquiry "In 1983, a commission chaired by Seán MacBride, the assistant to the UN Secretary General and President of United Nations General Assembly at the time, concluded that Israel, as the camp's occupying power, bore responsibility for the violence.[19] The commission also concluded that the massacre was a form of genocide.[20]" There are a load more links stating that Israel was both directly and indirectly responsible for the massacre, for intimidating the U.S. troops in Lebanon and for tricking the U.S. into supporting them over the massacre - not only from Human Rights organisations, but from U.S politicians and High-ranking military - don't uppose for on minute you will respond to them McBride doe find Israel answerable for the massacre, by the way Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 22 Jan 16 - 03:26 PM Could I suggest Jim that you reiterate "No such thing as "the Redmond Enquiry" Keith - I made it up, so how can you claim what it said, which you did" just so everyone can see what an idiot this man is. Once again Keith has demonstrated his complete and utter lack of knowledge and understanding about a subject he waffles on about. Keith: Jim invented the Redmond Enquiry just to prove a point which most of us had already acknowledged. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Musket Date: 22 Jan 16 - 04:12 PM Whoops. Looks like Brian May is confusing me with Musket. Poor sod. I know Ian has been taken to task before now by people thinking he is posting mine and Musket's posts. Confusing life innit? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 22 Jan 16 - 05:07 PM Yeah, but is Redmond alive, is he/she eminent, and are his/her hbooks available in regular bookstores?? What say you, Professor??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 23 Jan 16 - 02:09 AM No such thing as "the Redmond Enquiry" Keith - I made it up, so how can you claim what it said, which you did. I am sorry I believed your lie. I made no claim about what it said. I just responded to your made up claim of what it said, not realising that the whole thing was just more made up shit by you. I too can be gullible at times. But you did not make it up Jim, you just got the name wrong. Your Macbride references are not quotes. It is how some website you chose not to name reported it. Here it is reported using the wording you now claim to have made up. "The MacBride commission's report, Israel in Lebanon, concluded that the Israeli authorities or forces were directly or indirectly responsible in the massacres and other killings that have been reported to have been carried out by Lebanese militiamen in Sabra and Shatila in the Beirut area between 16 and 18 September." http://www.wikileaks-forum.com/sabra-and-shatila-massacre/613/sabra-and-shatila-massacre-general-info/26766/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 23 Jan 16 - 04:20 AM More weasely words from a charlatan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 16 - 04:20 AM Enough of this Keith These are the facts as I know them – I've become tired of your unqualified claims; if you have any evidence that they aren't correct, produce it The Israelis suspected that Sabra/Shatila was full of weapons and fighters "The Israelis maintained that 2,000 to 3,000 "terrorists" remained in the camps, following Israeli guidance on how to enter it. The forces were mostly Phalangist, though there were some men from Saad Haddad's "Free Lebanon forces""- Wiki Despite Israeli claims, neither weapons nor fighters were found, in fact the killers met with no armed resistance whatever from the refugees. Knowing the bad blood between the Christian militia, 1,500 militiamen assembled at Beirut International Airport, then occupied by Israel. Under the command of Elie Hobeika, they began moving towards the area in IDF-supplied jeeps, some bearing weapons provided by Israel, (above link). The Israelis drove the militiamen to the camp, opened the gates for them, and set up a base within range– they had previously fired shells into the camps. "During that period, Israeli units were sporadically firing artillery rounds into the Sabra and Shatila camps, although no fire was being returned because the last PLO defenders had been evacuated two weeks earlier, and any arms larger than handguns had been collected at that time. At noon Thursday, Sept. 16, a delegation of five old men bearing white flags tried to negotiate an end to the shelling of the two camps by the Israeli forces, which had now surrounded the camps and sealed the exits. Four of the Palestinian negotiators were killed. At 5 p.m. the first 150 Phalangist militiamen entered the camps and at 5:30 Israeli forces began firing flares over them to illuminate the narrow, twisting alleys, where massacres had already begun in one area only 100 yards from the nearest Israeli observation post. At this point mobs of Palestinian women began rushing to nearby camp exits, seeking to escape. Israeli tanks, stationed at 100- or 200-yard intervals and blocking all exits, turned back everyone. Israeli officers have testified that it was about this time that they first heard the order to kill the women and children, as well as the men, relayed over a walkie-talkie by militia commander Elie Hobeika, from the command post he shared with the Israelis. Israeli units continued firing illumination flares over the camps, a pattern they maintained throughout Thursday and Friday nights. Starting Thursday evening, horribly wounded victims began pouring into two hospitals in the camps, and the airwaves were full of commands revealing what was going on inside, and queries from Israeli officers and enlisted men, who could not believe that their commanders realized that whole families were being slaughtered in front of their eyes. When two Israeli officers stationed in adjacent tanks began discussing with each other the executions of children they were watching, the voice of General Amos Yaron, commander of Israeli forces in Beirut, came on the air to warn them against such talk on the military radio." WASHINGTON REPORT The Phalangists slaughtered up to 3,500 of the occupants, raping the women then cutting their throats – corpses of pregnant women who had been disembowelled and their dead children ripped out were found throughout the area. The Israelis provided illumination so the slaughter could be carried out throughout the night. At the end of three days, the Israelis ordered the Falagists to stop and began to hide the evidence of the massacre with bulldozers. "By Friday morning Israeli army bulldozers had arrived. While the Phalangist militiamen rested, corpses were bulldozed into a mass grave and Israeli soldiers sent food and water across the barricades to the militiamen. Word of what was going on spread rapidly throughout Beirut. Ze'ev Schiff, military correspondent of the Israeli daily Ha'aretz, began telephoning Israeli officials, including Minister of Communications Mordechai Zippori. Zippori telephoned then Foreign Minister Yitzhak Shamir." (Report from Washington link) The Falangists were driven away – none were ever arrested or charged. Jewish American nurse, Ellen Seigal, was present throughout the three days, treating the wounded, she was a loyal support of The State of Israel and gave evidence to the Kahan Enquiry. Since the massacre she has dedicated her life to telling the world what happened over those three day. HEROES OF SABRA SHATILA Israel facilitated the massacre, they helped arm the killers, they illuminated the slaugher, they prevented the victims from escaping and survivors claim Israeli soldiers were seen in the camp while the killing was taking place: "The Israel Defense Forces surrounded the Palestinian refugee camps, controlled access to them, and facilitated the massacre by firing illuminating flares over the camps.[5][6] In 1982, an independent commission chaired by Sean MacBride concluded that the Israeli authorities or forces were, directly or indirectly, responsible.[7] The Israeli government established the Kahan Commission to investigate, and in early 1983 it found that Israeli military personnel were aware that a massacre was in progress without taking serious steps to stop it. Therefore it regarded Israel as having indirect responsibility. The commission held Ariel Sharon personally responsible for having disregarded the prospect of acts of bloodshed by the Phalangists against the population of the refugee camps and not preventing their entry.[8] METAPEDIA That is how I understand the events – if you have any evidence that this did not happen, produce it Keith – your one man campaign to rewrite history is sickening Jim Carroll By the way, the article and others from The Washington Report (published by the American Educational Trust) is well worth reading in full |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 16 - 04:39 AM Further reading: Truth about Israel's vile role in 1982 Sabra-Shatila massacre of Palestinians At Last the Truth About Sabra and Chatila Massacres Enjoy!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 23 Jan 16 - 05:06 AM Jim, all the anti-Israel sites and Israel's enemies put up all that propaganda. Do not swallow it all without question. You know they tell lies. MacBride left responsibility as "directly or indirectly." Israel admitted indirect responsibility as the controlling authority in Beirut at the time, but denies colluding in the massacre. Asked for examples of all the massacres by Israeli forces you keep referring to, you take us back 35 years (!) to a massacre committed not by Israelis but by a local Arab militia. You have failed to make your case. No decent democratic country holds Israel responsible for any atrocity or massacre. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 16 - 06:37 AM "Jim, all the anti-Israel sites and Israel's enemies put up all that propaganda." If you have any dispute with anything I have put up, please present it - rants like "enemies of Israel" don't hack it any more. I have checked every fact put up - pleanty of reading there if you can find somebosy capable to read it for you Give us some of your own or go away - your one man campaign is over Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 23 Jan 16 - 06:47 AM I have checked every fact put up Do not be so silly. How can you check so called "eye witnesses" who we know can be produced to say anything. If you have any dispute with anything I have put up, please present it Yes. I dispute the the value of quoting anti-Israel propaganda sites in a serious discussion. Fact, MacBride left responsibility as "directly or indirectly." Israel admitted indirect responsibility as the controlling authority in Beirut at the time, but denies colluding in the massacre. Fact, Asked for examples of all the massacres by Israeli forces you keep referring to, you take us back 35 years (!) to a massacre committed not by Israelis but by a local Arab militia. You have failed to make your case. Fact, No decent democratic country holds Israel responsible for any atrocity or massacre. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Jan 16 - 07:02 AM If you think a vanilla phrase like "enemies of Israel" is a rant, Jim, I can't imagine how you would react if a real rant came along -- although to be sure your own "one man campaign to rewrite history is sickening" might do at a pinch as a minor instance. ≈M≈ If, indeed, there is one ranter on this topic on this site, it would be betraying no secrets to reveal that his initials are JC & he lives in Ireland, tho originating from the north of England, & was once a member of a group organised by a man from Salford with initials JM aka EMacM. Answers on a postcard please |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 16 - 07:45 AM Mike I find your behaviour both tiresome and puzzling. When "enemies of Israel" is used in defence as atrocities such as this it is a rant - the real enemies of Israel are those who commit these crimes in the name of the Israeli people and those who describe such criticism as an attack on the Jewish people extend that to Antisemitism. My invitation to Keith is, of course, extended to you. If you believe I have "re-written history", please feel free to point out where, but I would ask you hurry up - I'm not getting any younger. Please back up your accusatiuon - I regard you as somewhat better than Keith (but I'm always happy to be corrected on that one too). Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 16 - 08:15 AM Came across this during my searches - can't blue-clickie it unfortunately, but too good to ignore http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-must-end-its-50-year-occupation-of-palestine-the-white-house-says-10129448.html Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 23 Jan 16 - 08:27 AM Re. Jon Stone: Blatant Bias and Inept Journalism in The Independent |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Jan 16 - 09:23 AM "Mike - I find your behaviour both tiresome and puzzling" · J Carroll .,,. Oh, deary-me, Jim. Do you now? Perhaps I'd better take a trip down the garden to eat worms, then, eh? Or else recall what Dr Johnson (IIRC) once remarked to a man who had spoken slightingly of something written by one of his friends, "Sir, you may be sure it was writ with little thought of pleasing you." Do you seriously maintain that 3 (count them - three!) factual words (they are, so, 'enemies of Israel', aren't they, whatever you may regard as their motivations or putative justifications?) constitute a "rant", while your lengthy animadversions are nothing but displays of ice-cool rationality? Away you! ≈M≈ "rant verb speak or shout at length in a wild, impassioned way noun: an instance of ranting" online dictionary Hardly think 3 words constitute 'at length' - do you. While your interminable goings-on, now... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 16 - 09:34 AM Your link comes from Honest Reporting Brucie - nowhere does is answer a single point I have raised - The only thing I have put up from the Independent is Obama's statement - are you claiming it is faked - love to know!!!! We seem to have an odd mixture of Trappist Monks on a vow of silence and headless chickens running around looking for something to smear all critics of the Israeli regime with. Have any of you got anything to say about my analysis (not forgetting the information I put up to back it up, of course)apart from Keith's old usual "its's all lies" that is? Pathetique - as Beethoven put it. Jim Carroll HonestReporting (also Honest Reporting or honestreporting.com) is a pro-Israel,[1][2] non-governmental organization that monitors the media for what it perceives as bias against Israel.[3] The organization has affiliates in the United States, UK, Canada, Italy, and Brazil. Criticism[edit] The American Journalism Review described the organisation as a "pro-Israeli pressure group".[6] After being criticized by HonestReporting for articles published by The Independent, author Robert Fisk wrote in the Independent that some of their readers sent him hate-mail.[7] Following a 2004 article published in the British Medical Journal which criticised Israel for a high level of Palestinian civilian casualties and claimed that the pattern of injuries suggested routine targeting of children in situations of minimal or no threat, the journal received over 500 responses to its website and nearly 1,000 sent directly to its editor. In an analysis of the responses published in the journal, Karl Sabbagh concluded that the correspondence was orchestrated by Honest Reporting and aimed at silencing legitimate criticism of Israel. In his analysis Sabbagh pointed to evidence that that the correspondents had not read the article. Sabbagh also documented a significant proportion of offensive, abusive and racist insults among the correspondence. An editorial by the BMJ referred to the campaign as bullying and said that the best way to counter such behaviour was to expose it to public scrutiny.[8][9] Daniel Finkelstein, associate editor of The Times, responded that Sabbagh's piece was "anti-Israel propaganda" that did not meet even "basic academic standards" of scientific analysis.[10] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 16 - 09:41 AM "Hardly think 3 words constitute 'at length' " Three weds repeated interminable without fail every time criticism of the Israeli regime shows its ugly head is a "rant" in my book, but maybe 'mantra' is more accurate - I stand corrected. I take it we're not going to revisit your somewhat distasteful accusation of my rewriting history - can't say I'm surprised, though I am somewhat disappointed - ah well - former heroes with clay feet, and all that! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Jan 16 - 10:09 AM "take it we're not going to revisit your somewhat distasteful accusation of my rewriting history" ... This post of yours seems addressed to me. Not sure, if so, which of our numerous previous exchanges you refer to here, Jim. Reminder? "former heroes with clay feet, and all that!"... I have never set out to be anyone's hero. In what way [assuming, as I said before, this is meant for me] can I have been such? & in what particular have I now fallen short? Feel bound to say that, slice it as you will, the post I quote from here, strikes me as a fair old (what might fairly be described as) 'rant'! Traditional greetings, whatever ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 23 Jan 16 - 10:21 AM the author of your link is Simon Plosker, the editor of Honest Reporting, who has worked for the Israeli Defence Forces as a spokesperson and continues to do so as a reservist Did Jon Stone write those excerpts cited? Did The Independent publish them? Is Simon Plosker making it all up? Does the fact that Simon Plosker was in the IDF at one time and is a reservist, as are practically every Jew and many non Jews in Israel, disqualify him from critiquing Jon Stone and The Independent? You certainly seem to think so, or are just trying to smear him as you try to do with everyone who disagrees with you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 23 Jan 16 - 10:28 AM Honest Reporting has, by the way, gotten many biased and antisemitic headlines and news stories retracted or corrected so I rather trust their judgement of bias and antisemitism that that of someone who manifests an almost pathological hatred of a country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 16 - 11:02 AM "Did Jon Stone write those excerpts cited?" For a start, I saw no excerpts - only unsubstantiated one-line quotes, but let's look at a couple. "Last year Richard Falk, United Nations special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories accused the Israeli government of "ethnic cleansing" by trying to replace Arab Palestinian populations in its territory with Jewish Israelis." This is a long standing accusation coming from both outside and inside Israel – I believe it to be true, based on Israel's long-term behaviour towards the Arabs – I think you yourself have said on numerous occasions that the Arabs have no right to their homeland because they've only been there (for how long?)and should go and live among their own people. What on earth is that if it isn't "ethnic cleansing"? Israeli settlers have also been accused of violence against the existing inhabitants of the land they build on. So.....? Chemical sprays and high pressure hoses have been used with boring regularity to get farmers to leave their land – not just by the settlers, but by the army as well. Some time ago I put up a film of an Arab family being manhandled out of their home because a bunch of settlers fancied it. The British left to the sound of hand-grenades being tossed into occupied houses by Israeli "freedom fighters" – go read Benny Morris and Einstein's and the list of Jewish intellectuals' letter – a matter of history. If it wasn't actual violence, it was threatened violence backed by the forces of Laura Norder. Blaming the Independent seems a little like "shooting the messenger", as Keith is fond of saying Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 16 - 11:21 AM HERE HERE HERE HERE How many more do you want? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 16 - 11:26 AM TRY THIS, WHILE YOUR'E AT IT Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 23 Jan 16 - 11:38 AM For a start, I saw no excerpts " The green line was laid out in 1949 armistice agreements between the armies of Israel and its neighbours after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Israel has since breached these lines and it is now currently illegally occupying parts of the Palestinian territories." ----------------------------------------------- "The Israeli government says it needs to occupy Palestine for security reasons, despite repeated resolutions from the United Nations calling for it to withdraw." ---------------------------------------------- "Israeli settlers have also been accused of violence against the existing inhabitants of the land they build on." ---------------------------------------------- "Last year Richard Falk, United Nations special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories accused the Israeli government of "ethnic cleansing" by trying to replace Arab Palestinian populations in its territory with Jewish Israelis." ---------------------------------------------- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 16 - 12:10 PM "For a start, I saw no excerpts" In which case, they are unsubstantiated statements - though I'm sure you will now substantiate them or ignore the awkward ones. Dealt with two - can't be arsed with the others - though a quick glance in the Independent article Stone draws from gives an interestingbit he left out "The UK government, also an ally of Israel, criticised the move and reiterated that the settlements were illegal under international law. "The UK condemns the Government of Israel's decision of 30 January to publish new tenders for 450 settlement units in the West Bank of the Occupied Palestinian Territories. The UK's position on Israeli settlements is clear: they are illegal under international law," Conservative Middle East minister Tobias Ellwood said in a statement. "We urge the Government of Israel to reverse this decision. It is important to focus on steps that are conducive to peace."" Knocks Keith's "No decent democratic country" into a cocked hat. It would appear that many democracies support Israel like the rope supports a hanged man. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 23 Jan 16 - 12:36 PM Knocks Keith's "No decent democratic country" into a cocked hat No it does not. I said, "No decent democratic country holds Israel responsible for any atrocity or massacre." That stands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 23 Jan 16 - 12:57 PM Jim: Questions put to you in my post of 1009, nearly 3 hrs ago, remain unanswered, altho you have visited the thread on 4 occasions since. I asked for clarification of some not entirely clear allegations regarding previous encounters between us, possibly in earlier threads (these accusations, I repeat, were not entirely comprehensible to me), and should really appreciate the courtesy of some further elucidation as to precisely wherein these claims resided. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 16 - 01:47 PM Will get back Mike - missed your bit Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territories "I said, "No decent democratic country holds Israel responsible for any atrocity or massacre." That stands." The fact that you prefer the word of self-serving politicians and nations that pour burning petrol on peasants, sell arms to despots, pay homage to feudal kings while his regime hands out 1000 lashes to dissidents, provides sniper bullets to murderers who send snipers to cut down mothers and babes-in-arms... rather than heed the word of independent makes you the THIS that you are. "Decent democratic countries" seem to have taken the place of "real historians" as a convenient way of avoiding facts - predictable, but non-the-less entertaining Jim Carroll Human Rights Concerns Amnesty International's concerns are based on international standards and applied equally within the proper legal framework. The legal framework is defined by who retains jurisdiction, or effective control, over an area and the circumstances or situation at the time of the human rights violation. Amnesty's concerns within Israel-proper, the area inside the 1949 (W. Bank/E. Jerusalem) and 1951 (Gaza Strip) armistice lines (also called the '1967 borders') include but are not limited to, ill-treatment and torture of detainees, excessive use of force, the detention of conscientious objectors, and forced evictions and home demolitions within 'unrecognized' Bedouin villages. The Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory (the West Bank including East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip) is in its fifth decade and the undercurrent of violence and inherent abuses of fundamental human rights and disregard for international law inherent in any long-standing military occupation is presented by both sides. Both Israeli and Palestinian civilians continue to bear the brunt of the violence in the region. Human rights violations by Israeli forces in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) have included, but are not limited to, home demolitions and the forced eviction of Palestinian families; punitive arrests, unfair trials, ill-treatment and torture of detainees and the use of excessive or lethal force to subdue nonviolent demonstrations as well as the use of restrictive legal means. In contravention of international law, Israel continues to build parts of the wall/fence in the OPT, expand settlements and use draconian restrictions on the movement of Palestinians with some 600 roadblocks and checkpoints. Amnesty International is also concerned about discriminatory policies affecting access to water for Palestinians. In areas under control of the Palestinian Authority, concerns include, but are not limited to, excessive use of force, arbitrary arrests, ill-treatment, torture and the use of administrative detention to jail individuals without charge or trial. Some detainees also do not receive adequate medical attention. A ceasefire between Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups in the Gaza Strip in effect since 2009 has been generally respected. The Gaza Strip has been under increasing restrictions since 2005, when Israel unilaterally pulled troops and settlers out of the strip. June 2007, restrictions tightened to an almost air-tight blockade, deepening the hardship there and virtually imprisoning the entire population of 1.6 million. Israel maintains effective control over Gaza, controlling all but one of the crossings into the Gaza Strip, the airspace, territorial waters, telecommunications and the population registry which determines who is allowed to leave or enter Gaza. Therefore, Israel is still considered the occupying power and is responsible for the welfare of the inhabitants in the strip under international humanitarian law. Israeli authorities rejected or delayed hundreds of permit applications to leave Gaza by Palestinians requiring specialist medical treatment; a few died as a result. Most of Gaza's inhabitants depend on international aid, which is severely hampered by the blockade. In May 2010, Israeli forces killed nine men aboard an aid flotilla in international waters that was challenging the blockade's legality. Amnesty also has concerns about the indiscriminate rocket fire into southern Israel by armed Palestinian groups. Palestinian militants fired a rocket into Israel that hit a school bus, killing a 16 year old boy April 2011. Following hostilities between Israel and the Gaza Strip Dec. 2008 - Jan. 2009, Hamas has failed to conduct any domestic investigation into the serious allegations of violations of international humanitarian and human rights law committed by their forces during the conflict and Israel's investigations have been inadequate - failing to meet international standards. Political Situation Prospects for a just and durable resolution to the conflict are remote despite the fact that the Palestine Liberation Organization recognized the State of Israel in 1988 and Israel allowed the Palestinian leadership to return to the Occupied Territories under the Oslo Accords in 1994. Israel continues to violate international law by expanding settlements in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem and the Palestinian Authority appears to have given up on direct negotiations, planning to go directly to the United Nations to seek official recognition of the State of Palestine within the '1967 borders' against the wishes of the Israeli government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 23 Jan 16 - 02:00 PM I said, "No decent democratic country holds Israel responsible for any atrocity or massacre." That stands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 23 Jan 16 - 02:51 PM Keith, You have been shown to have little knowledge of this subject thus your knee jerk response to the "Redmond" report which does not and never has existed. It has been clearly demonstrated to all that observe this thread that you have little, if anything, pertinent to contribute. Jim Carroll caught you out, hook, line and sinker. Although Jim and I have crossed swords on other subjects on this one he has got you "banged to rights" Could I politely suggest that you refrain from further comment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Jan 16 - 03:38 PM "I said, "No decent democratic country holds Israel responsible for any atrocity or massacre." That stands" What "stands" Keith is that you have been presented with the running order of the Sabra Shatila massacre and Israel's facilitating it - you have no answer other than to scurry behind you "real democratic countries" gambit. Israel has been several massacres throughout its existence. Respected Jewish Historian, Benny Morris (look him up, if you don't know him ('m sure Mike does) wrote that "Jewish forces were responsible for 24 massacres during the war.[1] Aryeh Yizthaki attests to 10 major massacres with more than 50 victims each.[6] Palestinian researcher Salman Abu-Sitta records 33, half of them occurring during the civil war period.[6] Saleh Abdel Jawad has listed 68 villages where acts of indiscriminate killing of prisoners, and civilians took place, where no threat was posed to Yishuv or Israeli soldiers.[7]" Apart from these, there were the massacres carried out by Israeli Freedom fighters hurling grenades into occupied homes - massacres one and all. The Israeli soldiers who were interviewed during the Six day war described the massacres of Arab prisoners of war, followed by the massacres of those selected to bury them - you claimed to have seen the programme, so you are fully aware of this. Sabra/Shatila is down to Israel - don't need your "real democratic countries" - the facts (and your silence) speak for themselves. Bombing occupied schools, hospitals, old peoples centres and occupied homes, as happened in 20114 constitute massacres - the fact that Israel is moving heaven and earth to not be tried for these massacres doesn't make them any less massacres. I'm sure you'll put all these down to "Anti-Israeli lies - not a problem for the rest of us - we're well used to it. Must go - Casualty starts soon - hope that doesn't turn out to be yet another massacre!! G'night all!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 23 Jan 16 - 05:20 PM "Jim Carroll caught you out, hook, line and sinker. Although Jim and I have crossed swords on other subjects on this one he has got you "banged to rights" Could I politely suggest that you refrain from further comment." Raggy if being caught out hook-line-and-sinker constitutes grounds for refraining from further comment - you lot should have fallen silent years ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Raggytash Date: 23 Jan 16 - 05:53 PM Anything else to contribute terrichocolate .......................... no thought not. At least you haven't mentioned compass points or malt whiskey. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 24 Jan 16 - 01:21 AM This thread is descending to personal abuse rather than rational dispute. Not that that's anything new...! In which connection, as it concerns me personally: it's next morning; so good morning, Jim. I hate to appear to nag, but you still haven't 'got back' to me (0147pm) with answers to any of the IMO pertinent questions I put to you re your denunciations in response to my post of yesterday 1009 am. If you don't reply soon, we shall have forgotten the exchange altogether & the moment will have passed. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 24 Jan 16 - 04:58 AM Keith, You have been shown to have little knowledge of this subject thus your knee jerk response to the "Redmond" report which does not and never has existed. It does exist. Jim just used the wrong name. I referred to the accurate quote he made from the actual report. What "stands" Keith is that you have been presented with the running order of the Sabra Shatila massacre and Israel's facilitating it - you have no answer other than to scurry behind you "real democratic countries" gambit. Yes I have. I put Israel's version of events as you put the versions of its enemies. Six Day War. In all wars war crimes are committed at individual level. I defend no war crime. don't need your "real democratic countries" - the facts (and your silence) speak for themselves. The facts are disputed. Governments have access to the facts behind the propaganda. as happened in 20114 constitute massacres Disputed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 24 Jan 16 - 05:23 AM Ha Ha Ha, unbelievable. The Redmond report which YOU cited does in YOUR post does not exist. Jim Carroll invented it. If you had known it was called something else why did you not pull him up. You have been caught out and shown to have little knowledge of this subject. Before you shout I didn't quote it can I remind you (and others) of your post of 22 Jan: "It leaves it open as directly or indirectly responsible. It does not state that they were directly responsible, and Israel accepts indirect responsibility" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 16 - 05:37 AM "you lot should have fallen silent years ago." Give it a rest Terrytoon - say something on the subject or leave those who wish to to do so - we're all aware of your ability to change people's minds. " I hate to appear to nag, but you still haven't 'got back' to me " Sorry Mike - just got up Wonder if it' better to take what I have to say off line - up to you. "as happened in 20114 constitute massacres Disputed." Unfortune#ately not - the Israelis would rather close down the international court than allow their actions to be examined. "Six Day War. In all wars war crimes are committed at individual level." And were buried by the authorities who actually suppressed the interviews - the perpetrators were treated as heroes All atrocities are committed by individuals - these were sanctioned by the State. "The facts are disputed. Governments have access to the facts behind the propaganda" The facts are that the "facts" take second place to economic and political interests every time - judging these matters on the, non-action and silence of the State and politicians (not one of them has come out and openly defended Israel - they have simply said nothing on the individual examples of atrocities) is insane - we saw the result of the murder and destruction daily - if it was justified we have a right to know on what grounds. Sometime this year, the leading "democracy" 'The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave' may well be governed by the dream team of Donald Trump and Sara Palin - look forward to that one!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 24 Jan 16 - 08:03 AM Rag, The Redmond report which YOU cited does in YOUR post does not exist. Jim Carroll invented it. No. He lied about inventing it. He just got the name wrong. I quoted him from an earlier thread (Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:45 AM) where he had used both right and wrong names for the report. The quote was from the MacBride Report. He just sometimes called it Redmond. Jim, as you say, some decent democratic countries speak out against the settlement policy, but none do against massacres and atrocities because there are none. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 24 Jan 16 - 08:11 AM Jim's act was quite deliberate to show how little you had read or knew about the subject. As I said earlier he got you "bang to rights" I'm sure I am not the only person much amused by that or your floundering now. Keep digging Keith, I've got a quiet day today and could do with a laugh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:04 AM Do you have anything useful to add to the discussion Raggytash or are you here just to make personal attacks? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:04 AM "He just got the name wrong." How do yoy know this Keith? The truth is, I have become very tired of your claims of having read something you obviously haven't - you complain about postings being "too long" yet you claim you can work your way through some of the most complicated books I have ever read on subjects that interest me. Time after time you have been given links you don't obviously read, yet claim you have. I thought I'd put it to the test. I invented a name for a report we'd discussed which you claim to be aware of - you used the name I gave you to claim that what the author had written didn't condemn the Israelis role in the massacre. Point made, I think - you had not even read the links you were given to what Redmond(sic)MacBride said about the massacre, yet you continued to present a distorted account of it to make your case. You claim that the massacres during the Six Day Waar were individual actions - how do you know? THat was never stated on the programme - on the contrary - it was described as being carried out on the orders of officers who first instructed that the prisoners be shot, then that graves should be dug by remaining prisoners, than that those who dug the graves should be shot - nothing "individual" about soldiers being ordered to shoot prisoners. You'd really would find life much easier if you didn't keep making things up. "but none do against massacres and atrocities because there are none." You've just been given a list off them from the writings of one of the foremost Israeli historians - was he making them up? You seemed to backed away from Sabra/Shatila - doesn't that count as a massacre WE saw what happened in 2014 - all imagined? You have never responded to the fact that Israel is prepared to destroy the International Criminal Court in order not to appear before it. You seem to adopt the attitude that the only unbiased people on the planet are those politicians who support Israel - a bit of a contradiction in terms, doncha think? Do you really believe that The united Nations and all the Human Rights Groups are not to be trusted and the only ones to believe are politicians - it would be superb to be able to add this to your list of profound statements You really have painted yourself into a corner here. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:06 AM Jim's act was quite deliberate to show how little you had read or knew about the subject. Ridiculous. He got the name of the report wrong two years ago. The quote was genuine, but by Macbride not Redmond. The chump decided to lie to try and save face. He made up nothing. He just got a name wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:14 AM If that is the case Keith why didn't you put him right back in March 2014. Keep floundering, like I said I'm a bit bored today. BTW Guest, yes you are quite correct but it is funny to watch Keith acting like a fish on a line. As for the actual debate both the links provided by Keith and by Jim should tell you enough about this particular incident to allow you to make up your own mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:17 AM Jim, "He just got the name wrong." How do yoy know this Keith? Because you attributed the same quote to two different names in old threads. You claim that the massacres during the Six Day Waar were individual actions - how do you know? Because I saw the same programme you did and have kept it for reference. You've just been given a list off them from the writings of one of the foremost Israeli historians - was he making them up? Others dispute them. You seemed to backed away from Sabra/Shatila - doesn't that count as a massacre Of course it was. It was committed by a local Arab militia. WE saw what happened in 2014 - all imagined? Of course it happened, but the war crimes were committed by Hamas. Israel complied with international law. You have never responded to the fact that Israel is prepared to destroy the International Criminal Court in order not to appear before it. Is that a fact? You seem to adopt the attitude that the only unbiased people on the planet are those politicians who support Israel They do not support Israel on everything. Settlements for instance. Massacres and atrocities are just propaganda. You only ever look at one side and object when anyone puts Israel's case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:21 AM If that is the case Keith why didn't you put him right back in March 2014. Keep floundering, like I said I'm a bit bored today. "If it was the case.." It was the case. Look it up. You have the date. I let him call it what he wanted and just referred to the content. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:31 AM Yes of course you did Keith, you let pass an opportunity to put one over on Jim, yes of course you let it go. Ha Ha brilliant, please keep it up. Between you and the cricket it's turning into quite an interesting day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:39 AM More confusions by Jim. Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 20 May 13 - 01:44 PM " The UN MacBride Commission formed after the Sabra and Shatila massacre concluded that Israel had committed genocide and war crimes." Small hope for Israel/Palestine From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 31 Jul 14 - 03:23 AM "Israel's own report on Sabra/Shatila found itself indirectly responsible, as similar Israeli enquiries will find the present atrocities well withing international law, no doubt! The independent Redmond enquiry found otherwise, but Israel avoided prosecution through political and economic clout and influence." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:43 AM Still on the line Keith, keep it up there's a good lad. South Africa are just starting their second innings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 16 - 09:50 AM Keith - I have indeed made the mistake in the past, on several occasions - which I why I deliberately chose the this time. Throughout this thread I have carefully check every single statement I made to give you people no reason to trip me upon errors - the MacBride report was no different - I checked and rechecked what the report said and was fully aware who produced it - I've actually compiled a list of all the statements I've used in the Sabra/Shatila arguments for future use. I deliberately overused it on this thread (14 times) before I corrected it - (worked like a charm - couldn't have hoped for a better result) - you responded to it "authoritatively" on 5 occasions. Had it been a mistake it wouldn't have been a problem saying so - I've never seen the point in denying mistakes in a discussion, certainly none as trivial as this - unlike you, who yet to admit to one. I asked a question - Do you really believe that The united Nations and all the Human Rights Groups are not to be trusted and the only ones to believe are politicians "Because I saw the same programme you did and have kept it for reference." Can you give us the exact statement - the programme is still on line? "Others dispute them" Disputes Benny Morris - now that is interesting - can you link us to them please? "Of course it was. It was committed by a local Arab militia." And was facilitated by the Israeli army - you heaven't even bothered to respond too the facts of the massacre - perhaps you might care to do so now "Of course it happened, but the war crimes were committed by Hamas.Israel complied with international law." Do you have a hot-line to the U.N. - their enquiry is still underway, no announcement has ever been made and Israel is still struggling to keep it out of the Court - how on earth do you know when the rest of the world has no idea? "Massacres and atrocities are just propaganda" A matter of recorded history Keith - even by Jewish historians (Perhaps you are only talking about living historians or those writing over the last 20 minutes? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 24 Jan 16 - 10:07 AM Jim, the last time you correctly named the report was 20 May 13 - 01:44 PM. After that you always called it Redmond until someone asked you for a link to it here. I just responded to the accurate quote, ignoring the report name. And was facilitated by the Israeli army - you heaven't even bothered to respond too the facts of the massacre Not on this thread, but many, many times before. Put up any fact for response you like, but one at a time please. Re 2014, I have explained how the law applies to the conflict. I agree there are differing views, but you are equally adamant that they will be found guilty. I am just putting Israel's version. Why do you object to both sides being heard? A matter of recorded history Keith - even by Jewish historians Disputed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 24 Jan 16 - 10:17 AM Wriggle, wriggle Keith. (par for the course) South Africa 22 for 1. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 24 Jan 16 - 10:29 AM Israel avoided prosecution through political and economic clout and influence. Ah yes, the old antisemitic canard rears it's ugly head. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 16 - 10:47 AM "I just responded to the accurate quote, ignoring the report name." Twice actually - just checked If you care to look, I pointedly asked you had you read "the Redmond Report" immediately prior to 'Guest' asking me for the link. As I said - it doesn't matter - point made - "Wriggle, wriggle " as the man said. You are now using this inconsequential point to avoid the real questions I put to you 1 Quotes from the Six Days war programme? 2 Who disputes Benny Morris? 3 Response to Sabra/Shatila facts 4 How do you know the 2014 massacres weren't massacres if nobody else does? But first: 5 Do you really believe that The united Nations and all the Human Rights Groups are not to be trusted and the only ones to believe are politicians "Put up any fact for response you like, but one at a time please." Are you ****** serious??? - a man who reads tomes of 1000 pages can only handle facts one at a time!! You have been given the exact facts - all carefully linked and verified - respond to them in any way you wish. You really do have to be joking!! The facts were not put up for you - you are not interested in facts. They were put up for the record here - the only way you come into any of this is to expose you for the dishonest massacre denier that you are. You don't bother to respond , fine by me - double whammy - they stand as what they are - facts, and you are exposed for what you are - must be my birthday again!! When will you get it into your head that your ongoing behaviour has excluded you from ever being taken seriously again? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 24 Jan 16 - 01:48 PM From Haaretz: "A Palestinian teen suspected of stabbing Dafna Meir to death in the settlement of Otniel last week was moved to carry out the attack by incitement on Palestinian television, the Shin Bet said Sunday. According to the Shin Bet, the 15-year-old, a resident of the village of Beit Amra in the south Hebron Hills, was exposed to televised content which presented Israel as "the killer of Palestinian youngsters." On the day of the attack, influenced by these messages, the teen decided to kill an Israeli Jew, said the Shin Bet. "The severe consequences of the attack show once more the seriousness of the threat posed by the Palestinian media's wild incitement against the State of Israel and Jews., which influences lone-wolf attackers to commit murder and carry out serious terror attacks," said the Shin Bet." Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 24 Jan 16 - 01:59 PM 1 Quotes from the Six Days war programme? What quotes do you want? 2 Who disputes Benny Morris? About what? 3 Response to Sabra/Shatila facts Which facts? 4 How do you know the 2014 massacres weren't massacres if nobody else does? No decent democratic government has made such an accusation. Can anyone show that Israel broke international law? 5 Do you really believe that The united Nations and all the Human Rights Groups are not to be trusted . Yes. 5(cont.)and the only ones to believe are politicians. No, but no decent democratic government would ignore massacres and atrocities. Are you ****** serious??? - a man who reads tomes of 1000 pages can only handle facts one at a time!! The discussion becomes unmanageable trying to deal with several issues at once. The facts were not put up for you - you are not interested in facts. Yes I am, and will respond, but only one at a time please. Or are you afraid of having them all knocked down one at a time? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 16 - 02:55 PM "What quotes do you want?" Oh come ooooon Keith Sorry Keith - you know ****** well what I am talking about -all the claims you have made about these subjects " Do you really believe that The united Nations and all the Human Rights Groups are not to be trusted . Thanks for that - goes to the top[ of the list. "No, but no decent democratic government would ignore massacres and atrocities." That#s what I said - politicians - what else are govvrnments made up of - rabbits??? "The discussion becomes unmanageable trying to deal with several issues at once." Only to a moron Keith - you may have a point there Pisss off Keith - you have the facts - choose them at your leisure. "From Haaretz:" You want to join in with this Bruce or just put up meaningless quotes and sprint away again - Keith could do with a bit of help here. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 24 Jan 16 - 03:09 PM BREAKING: In the last hour, a Palestinian shot at an Israeli vehicle near Dolev in the West Bank. The bullet missed the driver by inches. Additionally, rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel. One landed in southern Israel. No injuries reported. Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 16 - 05:52 PM "Terrorism, Again" TREATMENT OF PALESTINIAN CHILDREN BY ISRAEL I would say so - yes Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Jan 16 - 06:05 PM October 20115 - three months ago sraeli forces have killed 65 Palestinians this month, including 14 children - Se More Israeli terrorism Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 24 Jan 16 - 06:31 PM Are these "unbiased" sources Jim . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 24 Jan 16 - 06:53 PM sraeli forces have killed 65 Palestinians this month, including 14 children Of course he fails to mention that these terrorists were killed while in the act of killing or trying to kill Jews, a minor detail to him and others biased against Jews as the media has been doing in scores of misleading reports. This is one example, there are many, many more: Two Israeli men were fatally stabbed in Jerusalem's Old City on Saturday evening. The Palestinian attacker was shot dead by security forces after he opened fire on them. The wife of one of the victims and their two-year-old baby were lightly wounded. How did the BBC initially report on the attack? Palestinian shot dead after Jerusalem attack kills two Notice how the main focus of the headline is the death of the Palestinian perpetrator who is "shot dead," effectively turning the terrorist into the victim. And what is a "Jerusalem attack?" Cities don't attack people. In this case, the BBC cannot bring itself to apportion responsibility to a Palestinian. Nor does it state that the actual victims of the attack were Israeli Jews. Disturbing, yes. Surprising, no. The BBC has a history of publishing headlines where Palestinian terrorists are sanitized to the point that inanimate objects such as bulldozers are held responsible for killing Israelis. While the headline was eventually changed, presumably as a result of outrage on social media, it is appalling that such an initial response could have been published at all. Honest Reporting |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 24 Jan 16 - 07:55 PM Greg F, you seem to have a delusional obsession with this person named Brucie lol. It ain't me babe! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 24 Jan 16 - 08:10 PM Guest isn't The one with the delusional obsession. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jan 16 - 08:20 PM It ain't me babe! Very possibly - but if you ain't him, you're his clone! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 25 Jan 16 - 02:08 AM Jim, put your "facts" up one at a time unless you are afraid of seeing them knocked down one at a time. You want to address the Six Day War, Sabra/Shatilla and Gaza conflicts in one post! Each is worthy of a dedicated thread and each has had several already!! "No, but no decent democratic government would ignore massacres and atrocities." That#s what I said - politicians - what else are govvrnments made up of - rabbits??? They criticise settlements because that is a real issue. They acknowledge no atrocities or massacres because there have been none. Have the confidence in your claims to make one at a time. What are you afraid of Jim? Looking silly when each one is demolished? Pathetic. What is your biggest, strongest "fact"? Put it up and let me respond if you you think it will stand. Show some confidence in your case man. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 25 Jan 16 - 02:15 AM Jim, your "more Israeli terrorism" link is about the "knife intifada." Those killed had been trying and mostly succeeding to knife Jews. Are Jews not allowed to defend themselves from random murder attacks? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 25 Jan 16 - 03:33 AM Raggytash - 23 Jan 16 - 05:53 PM Anything else to contribute " Damn sight more than you Raggy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:02 AM "Jim, put your "facts" up one at a time unless you are afraid of seeing them knocked down one at a time." You've had the facts - treat them as you like or don't - your choice - I've had what I want from you - anything further would be an icing on the cake, but I'm really not into sweet things too much. Fact: Israel has a history of massacres dating to the beginning - Benny Morris, leading Israeli historian lists 24 of them, others give more. Yo claim he is disputed, but you refuse to tell us by whom, so we can only assume by you. Massacres took place in the fifites, sixties seventies, 80s,,, in fact, up to the present day Example) "The Cave of the Patriarchs massacre, also known as the Ibrahimi Mosque massacre or Hebron massacre,[1] was a shooting massacre carried out by American-Israeli Baruch Goldstein, also a member of the far-right Israeli Kach movement. On February 25, 1994, Goldstein opened fire on a large number of Palestinian Muslims who had gathered to pray inside the Ibrahimi Mosque (also Mosque of Abraham), at the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, West Bank. It took place on February 25, 1994, during the overlapping religious holidays of both Jewish Purim and Muslim Ramadan.[2][3] The attack left 29 people dead and 125 wounded.[4] Goldstein was only stopped after he was overpowered and beaten to death by survivors." Wiki Prisoners of war were shot py order of the officers during the Six Day War - you alone dispute thei, but refuse to point out why - though you claim to have seen the film Sabra/Shatila facilitated by Israel - done and dusted You refuse to defend your argument - the ones that have beren put up stand. You claim Israel was not responsible for what happened in 2014 though no enquiry (other than the rigged one by Friends of Israel) has taken place and Israel is fighting to ascertain none takes place - you refuse to justify this. We know how many people, including women and children - Isarel killed - we know how mnay hospitals, schools and public clinics and care homes were destroyed, we don;t know how many homes were destroyed because there were too many to count, certainly many thousands, we know that many of the homes, hospitals and other buildings were occupied (in one case, by order of the Israelis).... all this is common knowledge, yet Isreal refuses to stand trial and you continue to deny it. Your overall claim is Israel did none of tehse things because they said so You say the eye witnesses, human rights workers, medical workers, press, and other neutral observers' words are not to be trusted and instead, we should trust the fact that countries continue to do business with them (that lets Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, China, Russia, Syria...... and all the other human rights abusers and mass murderers off the hook). As I said, I've got what I came for - you have shamelessly humiliated yourself again. If you feel like answering any of these feel free - I realy do look forward to it. Everything I claim has been backed by masses of evidence - all you have to offer is 'Israel says they didn't do it' and 'trust the politicians' - yheah, right!! "Of course he fails to mention that these terrorists were killed while in the act of killing or trying to kill Jews" No they were't, or if they were, nobody has ever claimed that they were Brucie Show us your evidence otherwise stand with your friend as an appeasers of massacres and human rights abusers Even Terrytoon has stayed away from this garbage - wisely Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:22 AM Fact - according to "Jom the infallible": "Israel has a history of massacres dating to the beginning - Benny Morris, leading Israeli historian lists 24 of them, others give more. Yo claim he is disputed, but you refuse to tell us by whom, so we can only assume by you. Massacres took place in the fifites, sixties seventies, 80s,,, in fact, up to the present day" Ah yes Israel - fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties Would that be the same Israel that the pan-Arabic nations swore to wipe out, to exterminate, to drive all the Jews into the sea (All those promises enshrined and carved in stone in the Hamas Charter) How many times during the forties, fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties ...... in fact, up to the present day have the Arabs chosen war over peace? How many times have they attacked Israel and deliberately targeted her civilian population as their first line of attack. Ever since it declared itself a sovereign and independent state Israel has been threatened - every nation has the right to defend itself from naked aggression and as far as Yasser Arafat's "Palestinians" are concerned that is all that Israel, Jordan and the Lebanon have done (Arafat's "Palestinians" have threatened the peace and stability of all three countries) Your "Palestinians" have had over 67 years to sort things out and have failed miserably so next time "it kicks off" down there in the Gaza Strip I would strongly recommend that nobody steps in, that no-one intercedes - just let them get on with it and solve it by force of arms - The Arabs default position and their preferred way of doing things according to their own clearly documented track record. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:26 AM Jim, you put the Palestinian case but object to anyone giving Israel's side of the story. Gaza 2014. Israel was subjected to indiscriminate attacks on its civilians from terrorists hiding among civilians. It was a victim of war crimes. It had a right and duty to respond, and tried to do so without breaking international law. The civilian deaths were the result of Hamas' war crimes not Israel's. Beirut 1982. An Arab militia carried out a reprisal massacre in the Sabra/Shatilla camp. Other massacres also occurred in those camps. All were committed by Arabs not Israelis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:34 AM Is that your answer to all problems Terrichocolate. My Dad's bigger than your Dad. My Dad will kick your Dad's head in. Juvenile to say the least. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:42 AM "Would that be the same Israel that the pan-Arabic nations swore to wipe out, to exterminate, to drive all the Jews into the sea" You've said this before Terrytoon and I asked when did two wrongs make a right - didn't get a reply then, don't expect one now The history of Israel has been one of driving out the Arabs to create a monotheistic state, one of expansionism, ongoing settlement on disputed territory, blockades, ghettoisation, refugee camps and ongoing persecution, terror, massacres.... using heavy artillery, chemicals,anti-personnel missiles, helicopters - the latest equipment.... and finally, a concerted effort to create an apartheid state.... first named as such by people living in Israel. A bit unrealistic to expect people who have occupied the area for well over a thousand years to sit on their bums and do nothing. Do you want to challenge any of the facts I've put up or will you stick with "they've only got themselves to blame? Yep - thought so. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:50 AM Do you want to challenge any of the facts I've put up Not facts Jim. The state of Israel has a right to exist. They have a right to defend themselves from attack. That is all they are guilty of. At least in your last post you acknowledge wrong on both sides. I accept that too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Jan 16 - 06:26 AM Forgot to thank you for this "Your "Palestinians" have had over 67 years to sort things out and have failed miserably so next time "it kicks off" down there in the Gaza Strip I would strongly recommend that nobody steps in, that no-one intercedes - just let them get on with it and solve it by force of arms - The Arabs default position and their preferred way of doing things according to their own clearly documented track record." Poorly armed Arabs against a nuclear power equipped with drones, planes, tanks, heavy artillery... and all the armament their god can provide Might is still right from our resident wannabe soldier - certainly politically - very right Jim Carroll See Kieth's still not waving but drowning |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 25 Jan 16 - 07:24 AM GUEST,Raggytash - 25 Jan 16 - 05:34 AM And where did I say anything like that Raggy? Oh, of course Raggy, this is just another case of putting your words in my mouth, no doubt this will be followed by some other baseless and unfounded allegation - your usual tactic. It would appear Raggy that you actually KNOW S.F.A. about anything, going by your input to any discussion your only interest in this forum is to feed your compulsion to act as a TROLL. Pointless waste of space that is what you are Raggy and a proven hypocrite to boot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Jan 16 - 07:46 AM "And where did I say anything like that Raggy?" Your response has always been just that - "might is right" - on this and every similar subject It's why I put up my last posting - let the poorly armed and equippen Arabs slog it out with a nuclear power - the "dad's" don't get any bigger than that Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 25 Jan 16 - 08:10 AM Quote from you Terribums "just let them get on with it and solve it by force of arms" That seems to be your answer to everything. Violence. Many of us who use the brains we were endowed with know that violence is not the answer. Killing people is not a solution,never has been and never will be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Jan 16 - 08:13 AM "That seems to be your answer to everything. Violence" Only if the scales are loaded in his facvour Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 25 Jan 16 - 08:43 AM "Quote from you Terribums "just let them get on with it and solve it by force of arms" That seems to be your answer to everything. Violence." Ehmmm NO Raggy. I know you have trouble with English but the whole gist of my post was that since 1921 VIOLENCE has been the Arabs answer to everything. The track record shows that every time the Arabs of the region under discussion and their Arab neighbours have been given a choice between peace and war they have chosen war - so yes let them slog it out to the finish - it has always been their choice - nothing whatsoever to do with me. Every time they have ganged up and tried to implement their little scheme to destroy Israel and annihilate the inhabitants of the state of Israel they have come off the worse for it. Every time they have sued for peace they have reneged on every promise they have agreed to. The so-called "leaders" have failed their people for nearly seven decades now, they have received more in international aid than was given to the whole of Europe in the aftermath of the Second World War - and what have they done with it??? S.F.A. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 25 Jan 16 - 08:45 AM In considering my dads bigger than your dad arguments Terribums think of the following: Palestine's GDP is approx 4 Billion. America alone gave approx 3 billion of Military Aid to Israel in 2013. That 3 billion represents about 20% of all US aid donations. Equally, or not as the case actually is, Palestine receive no military aid from America. So Palestine has approx 4 Billion per annum to run an entire country, schools, hospital, infrastructure etcetera etcetera and Israel get 3 Billion in military aid alone from America. You do the math, it's not difficult. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 25 Jan 16 - 09:15 AM ""Would that be the same Israel that the pan-Arabic nations swore to wipe out, to exterminate, to drive all the Jews into the sea" You've said this before Terrytoon and I asked when did two wrongs make a right - didn't get a reply then, don't expect one now" A reply Jom!!! You want a reply??? You won't like it but here it is: Everyone IF ATTACKED has the inalienable right to defend themselves. - In 1921 the Arabs attacked the Jews and the Jews defended themselves - In 1929 the Arabs attacked the Jews and the Jews defended themselves - In 1936 the Arabs attacked the Jews and the Jews defended themselves - In 1948 the Arabs attacked the Israelis and the Israelis defended themselves - In 1956 the Arabs attacked the Israelis and the Israelis defended themselves - In 1967 the Arabs attacked the Israelis and the Israelis defended themselves - In 1973 the Arabs attacked the Israelis and the Israelis defended themselves - In 1978 the PLO launched attacks on Israel from Lebanon the Israelis defended themselves - 1987 the First Intifada the Palestinians attack the Israelis and Israel defends itself - 2000 the Second Intifada And so on and so on. In Viking times even a slave was permitted to carry a knife as a means of protecting him/herself if attacked. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 25 Jan 16 - 09:22 AM GUEST,Raggytash - 25 Jan 16 - 08:45 AM Nice attempt at deflection Raggy, but seeing as you wish to portray yourself as being as thick as pigshit then I will ask you again: "The Palestinians have been given more international aid than that received by the whole of Europe combined in the aftermath of the Second World War - what have they done with it?? - S.F.A. [Apart from making Yasser Arafat and other Palestinian "leaders" into multimillionaires - nice work if you can get it eh Raggy] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 25 Jan 16 - 09:30 AM The aid given the Palestine has been for building infrastructure, medical aid, budget support and the like. Not so the 3 billion that Israel was given in 2013 alone for MILITARY use. MILITARY Terribums, not humanitarian. Surely even you can see the difference. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 16 - 09:39 AM More uncorroborated halve truths - massacres, persecution and expansionism have been a way of life since the establishment of the State of Israel - it is somewhat unrealistic that there should not have been a backlash over that period Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 16 - 09:48 AM This image may give you a clue as to why Israel receives US aid. The "greens" are, for the majority, sworn enemies of Israel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 16 - 09:58 AM BTW, Muslim countries receive much more financial aid from the US than does Israel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 16 - 10:19 AM What on earth does "This image " have to do with Israeli terrorism Care to tell us how many of those countries benefit from a US veto keeping them out of the International War Crimes court? No verification of accusation that those murdered by Israelis were all "terrorists" Ah well, I can wait, but I am getting older daily Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 25 Jan 16 - 10:21 AM So Israel is a theocracy after all, Guest? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 16 - 11:02 AM So Israel is a theocracy after all, Guest? Is the US a theocracy? I think you are confused as to the meaning of the term, remember Google is your friend. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 25 Jan 16 - 11:14 AM "The aid given the Palestine has been for building infrastructure, medical aid, budget support and the like." Then care to tell me Raggy why the vast bulk of it has been purloined by Palestinian "LEADERS" and spent on weapons, what concrete, cement and re-bar that has been bought and imported has gone to build tunnels for smuggling, tunnels through which attacks are mounted on Israeli citizens and to build shelters for senior Hamas "officials". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 25 Jan 16 - 11:15 AM So it ISN'T a "Jewish State", then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Raggytash Date: 25 Jan 16 - 11:17 AM Care to put any figures to your accusation Terribus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Musket Date: 25 Jan 16 - 11:27 AM Don't encourage him Raggy, he lies anyway so of course he can put figures. Meanwhile, Terribulus can slur all Arabs but point his crime out (incitement to hatred, with falsehoods) and the Donald Trump wannabes at Mudcat delete your post whilst keeping his sick crap. Fucking magic.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 25 Jan 16 - 11:42 AM Arafat's Billions Arafat diverting aid to his own accounts From the above: "Rather than use donor funds for their intended purposes, Arafat regularly diverted money to his own accounts. It is amazing that some U.S. officials still see the Palestinian Authority as a partner even after U.S. congressional records revealed authenticated PLO papers signed by Arafat in which he instructed his staff to divert donors' money to projects benefiting himself, his family, and his associates." "Arafat's men flagrantly displayed corruption. Arriving penniless in Gaza and the West Bank from exile in Tunisia, many PLO members amassed wealth, built villas in Gaza, Ramallah, Amman, and other places, and sent their children to the best schools in the United Kingdom and the United States. Hisham Makki, former head of the Palestine Broadcasting Services, assassinated in January 2001, earned a monthly salary of $1,500 but became a millionaire within a few years. Immediately after his assassination, Arafat froze Makki's personal bank accounts, estimated at $17 million. Makki was alleged to have taken bribes and sold government-owned equipment. However, it was rumored that he had a dispute with another PA official over the sharing of profits gained on illegal business transactions. His assailants, believed to be members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a shady group affiliated with Fatah, have never been caught." http://joshuapundit.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/no-honor-among-thieves-fatah-accuses.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 25 Jan 16 - 01:28 PM Sorry Teribus, if you have to resort to JoshuaPundit to back up your argument you are REALLY scraping the barrel. I have no illusions that many people in a position of power abuse that self same power. The same would also apply to British, French, German, Greek, Italian, American or even Israeli politicians. Sadly that is, for the most part, human nature. I know it is not right but Arafat and the rest are merely following a pattern that has been laid down for centuries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Jan 16 - 01:29 PM "Rather than use donor funds for their intended purposes, Arafat regularly diverted money to his own accounts" Your link leads to an untraceable blog from "Joshuapundit.com" The only other place on which this claim is made is "Target of Opportunity " - an extremist American site whose mission statement is: "This website is devoted to fighting Terrorism and the forced integration of Marxist oriented ideals and values into the American mainstream. By exposing the violent actions and the violent speech (and it is very violent, just keep reading) of these so-called "Non-Violent"and "Peaceful" groups, the truth is revealed for all to see. Their brand of Radical Marxist Liberalism poses a serious threat to the American public. They are among us and this website exposes them for who they are and what they are based on THEIR actions and THEIR agendas." An openly Fascist site. You did better when you weren't linking your quotes. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 16 - 01:41 PM So it ISN'T a "Jewish State", then. Are Jews a Nation or a Religion? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 25 Jan 16 - 02:34 PM Are Jews a Nation or a Religion? So Isral IS a theocracy, then? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 16 - 02:36 PM So Isral IS a theocracy, then? Emm....no! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Jan 16 - 02:42 PM A few years ago Israel launched a propaganda campaign to get Palestinian aid stopped UNITED WITH ISRAEL This is not to say there isn't corruption in Palestine as there is anywhere ISRAEL AMONG THE MOST CORRUPT BRITAIN IS NOT MUCH BETTER but that is no reason why aid should not be given. Israel (with its record of corruption) is specifically targeting the Palestinian people, after having virtually destroyed Gaza with acts of terror and massacres - near genocide and ethnic cleansing Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Jan 16 - 02:47 PM ISRAELI THEOCRACY Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 16 - 03:12 PM Right, so just because one person holds to a certain opinion then it must be accepted as a reality. There are some who maintain that the UK is becoming an Islamic country - does that make it so? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:00 PM WATCH: Israeli man fights off Palestinian stabbers with a supermarket cart. Children and women were in the store, so 'I knew I had to stop the terrorists,' says Mordechai Shalem. 'I saw their knives raised, and the hatred in their eyes' Our thoughts and prayers go out to the two women who were badly injured in the stabbing attack tonight. We applaud Mr. Shalem for his quick thinking and bravery! Terrorism, Again (Israel).......indeed! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:21 PM Yo, Guest: these incidents are taking place in the OCCUPIED TERRITORIES where Israel has no place establishing illegal settlements in the first instance, and which are under de facto military occupation. The indigenous population might just take exception. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:33 PM The stabbings of civilians including pregnant women and babies are being done in Israel, Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria. Your attempt to justify them makes you one sick fuck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 25 Jan 16 - 05:50 PM PS: its not an justification, its an explanation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 16 - 06:19 PM It's justification and it's disgusting! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Jan 16 - 08:53 PM "Right, so just because one person holds to a certain opinion then it must be accepted as a reality." Not "one person" a widely held opinion - including by many Israelis. Some of the greatest criticism of Israeli policy comes from Jews - inside and outside Israel. This includes former heads of Mossad and goes back as far as Albert Einstein. You can put up as many examples you like of Palestinians reacting (often badly) to Israeli Terrorism - but it doesn't alter tha fact that Israel is in the hand of Extremist right wingers who are committing human rights abuses and war crimes in the name of the Jewish people. By describing criticism of the Israeli regime as "Antisemitism" you are painting targets on the backs of every Jew on the planet. The rise of Antisemitism in the world today is as much the fault of people like you as it is the growing number of fascist who are feeding off the actions of Israeli regime. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 26 Jan 16 - 12:31 AM "Extremist right wingers" ... It is indeed, it must be admitted the persistence of the Israelis over the past many years to replace the original moderately progressively governments of such as Ben Gurion and Golda Meir with the aggressiveness and expansionism of "Revisionist" parties led by the likes of Menahem Begin -- not that Likud is that way inclined so much, but the electoral system makes it unavoidable to concede much to these parties in order to produce any sort of viable coalition -- that has left so many of us, like Einstein & me (probably our only point of comparison!) so disappointed with what Israel has become. & do us a favour, Jim, & spare us your fucking "lip·service" pigshit just for once! – and you know how often I indulge in that sort of locution on this forum. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 26 Jan 16 - 12:42 AM Sorry -- I got confused there [it's v early in the morning: 0535 here]. -- Likud was indeed Begin's party, & has governed Israel on & off for years now, alternately with Labor, & always with strong coalition presence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 16 - 03:38 AM " Ben Gurion" - moderately progressive - hmmm - he was honest enough to admit that the aim of Israel was to steal Arab land, but that didn't stop him leading a country who actually carried it out. "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" or ""We must expel Arabs and take their places." -- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985." Golda Meir ""There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist." -- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969. "Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen." -- Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961 "This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy." -- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971 "do us a favour, Jim, & spare us your fucking "lip·service" pigshit just for once" Will do Mike - if you spare us your "olive trees" hypocrisy. A full discussion of actually what has happened and is still happening would clear the bad air that exists between us no end. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Dave Date: 26 Jan 16 - 04:07 AM Indeed, holding up Golda Meir as some kind of enlightened advocate for reconciliation is bizarre to say the least. The Le Monde quote highlights the major problem, both sides here invoke God as a justification for the extreme positions they hold. I don't see a solution to this unless they each recognise the validity of the position of the other, and leave religion out of it. Horrible problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 26 Jan 16 - 04:13 AM I remain much exercised, Jim, as to what you regard as 'hypocritical' in my denunciation of Israeli settlers for having destroyed the olive groves on which the Arab farmers relied for their livings. It still seems to me a most potent symbol and instance of a disgracefully insouciant Israeli attitude to their neighbours. Justify this 'hypocrisy' allegation, or apologise, please. I think you are behaving like an absolute shit in this particular, and am ashamed for you! Sincerely! ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 26 Jan 16 - 04:18 AM Yes, well -- maybe Ben Gurion & Meir not all that fair-minded at that; but compared to the absolutely stinking Begin & his Likud successors... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 26 Jan 16 - 04:25 AM Yo, Guest: these incidents are taking place in the OCCUPIED TERRITORIES where Israel has no place establishing illegal settlements in the first instance, So Greg, if you consider that an immigrant's status is illegal, it is OK to hack them to death. Or only if they are Jews? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Dave Date: 26 Jan 16 - 04:33 AM Keith, there is a difference between an immigrant, even an illegal one, and an occupier. Thats not to justify violence in any way, but Greg's point as quoted by you is a fair one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 16 - 04:42 AM "I remain much exercised, Jim, as to what you regard as 'hypocritical' in my denunciation of Israeli settlers for having destroyed the olive groves " I most certainly do not disagree with you Mike - I find hypocritical the fact that it is the only actual criticism of Israeli behaviour you have been prepared to make, to my recollection. Sabra/Shatila, The Israeli/Berlin Wall, the spread of settlements, the massacres and devastation of 2014, the introduction of Israeli Apartheid..... and the rest, "is silence" as The Bard said. silence is support in another form, as far as I'm concerned. Your being ashamed for me is fully reciprocated. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 26 Jan 16 - 04:50 AM there is a difference between an immigrant, even an illegal one, and an occupier. The knife intifada victims are mostly just immigrants. Settlers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 26 Jan 16 - 04:56 AM Jim, your faked quotes are very dishonest. If you had a case you would not have to lie. Example, "We must expel Arabs and take their places." -- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985." What he really said, "We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs." Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai, Ben Gurion: The Burning Ground; and Karsh, Efraim (2000), Fabricating Israeli History: The 'New Historians'; this has been extensively misquoted as "[We] must expel Arabs and take their places" after appearing in this form in Morris, Benny (1987), The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947–1949, Cambridge University Press, p. 25. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 16 - 05:13 AM It is a quote I lifted direct - it matters little that iyt is "misquoted" - elsewhere David ben Gurion made it quite clear that he was aware the Israelis had "stolen Arab" lands - nobody other than you has ever denied that he said what he did. Settlers are far more thin "immigrants" - they are sanctioned land thieves. Now there's a misleading claim, if you like Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Dave Date: 26 Jan 16 - 05:32 AM Ok, I admit ignorance here, were these knife attacks in Israel proper (i.e. pre-1967) or in the occupied West Bank? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 26 Jan 16 - 06:13 AM GUEST,Raggytash - 25 Jan 16 - 01:28 PM My point Raggy is that those who call themselves "Palestinians" (An invention of Yasser Arafat's) have been appallingly let down by their own allies and by their own leaders since 1948. The degree and scale of their self-serving corruption is staggering and blatantly evident to all. The sources illustrating this with regard to Yasser Arafat number in the hundreds if not thousands - I merely selected three of them - so much for having to resort to anybody. It was not the Israelis who bundled people on their own land and shut them up in camps and called them "refugees" that was done by the Egyptians, the Jordanians, and then that status was maintained by the Palestinian leaders - Refugees you see Raggy are very useful political pawns and the poorer their lot and the more hopeless you make their circumstances the better fund raisers they are - The ARAB "LEADERS" have deliberately fostered these circumstances and conditions since 1948 - all down to them - they could have peace tomorrow IF they wanted it - unfortunately THEY DON'T so the beat goes gone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 26 Jan 16 - 06:28 AM I think you will find Terriblossom that Palestine is mentioned in the bible, to say nothing of the Roman general Titus in AD70 or of the Anglo/French involvement post first world war. All year or two before Arafats time, whatever you may think of him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 16 - 06:45 AM "The degree and scale of their self-serving corruption is staggering and blatantly evident to all." No more than corruption elsewhere - including Britain, which left millions homeless and unemployed - (and Israel, of course) that's politics for you Your relying on Palestinian corruption to denigrate Palestinians totally ignores the fact that it is an integral part of modern acquisitive society everywhere - not exclusive to Middle Eatern politicians and no less reprehensible. (An invention of Yasser Arafat's) Utter crap "Palestinian" was used to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the Arabs of Palestine in a limited way until World War I" It came into full use when their right to their homeland was challenged by the Israelis - around the time the "State of Israel" was "invented" "It was not the Israelis who bundled people on their own land and shut them up in camps and called them "refugees"" It was the Israelis who drove over five million Palestinians into exile and has persistently refused to allow them to return. Refugees are the product of a war brought about by constant land seizure by the Israelis Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 26 Jan 16 - 06:46 AM Of course "Palestine" was mentioned prior to the misfortune of Arafat copying his Uncle in using the Arabs from that REGION as a means of amassing a personal fortune and aggrandising himself. Palestine refers to a geographic area comprising a collection of districts of what was the former Ottoman Empire. Here Raggy is a map of the Ottoman Empire around 1900 - you will find no place on it called "Palestine": Ottoman Empire 1900 Palestine has never existed as a country, Arafat invented it in the early 1970s in order to make money - this he did very successfully as his bank balance clearly shows - but Arafat's "Palestinians" never saw any benefit of it because it was in the best interests of the "Palestinians Leaders" to keep their people poor, impoverished and bereft of any hope, as in that condition they can be wound up and played like a cheap clockwork toy and as biddable as a well trained dog. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 26 Jan 16 - 06:47 AM "- I find hypocritical the fact that it is the only actual criticism of Israeli behaviour you have been prepared to make, to my recollection." .,,.,. Ah; maybe I begin to see daylight. As suggested in my last post, and as I thought I should have made clear, I cited is as a particularly telling symbolic instance of exploitation and victimisation on Israel's part. I never suggested it was the only, or the worst, example that could be found; simply that its very pettiness was a sort of microcosm of a much greater & more culpable and reprehensible tendency to exploit & victimise. I still regard those groves, their owners' only means of maintenance, as symbolically important in the whole lamentable and discreditable debacle. OTOH, to hear you tell it, those bloody olive groves didn't even matter. I don't think their deprived & starved out owners & cultivators would have agreed with you. Geddit now? ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 16 - 07:03 AM "particularly telling symbolic instance of exploitation and victimisation" I fully accept that Mike and agree with your sentiments absolutely, but at the same time you have continually castigated me, even to the length of describing me as "Antisemitic", for going beyond symbolism and criticising the realities of the situation Symbols are fine, but sometimes a little superfluous when you are faced with the real thing. I'm happy that you stick with your symbolism as long as you leave me to state my opinions as I see fit. "Of course "Palestine" was mentioned " Wasn't "mentioned" - it was fairly common You seldom make anything "clear" when to shroud everything in belligerent bullying and hectoring "Arafat invented it in the early 1970s in order to make money " No he did not" - he used it ahs a rallying descriotion for a people under attack Jeez - you really are happy to use Zionist propaganda do denigrate the vicitms of Israeli terrorism. EVEN-HANDED SUMMING UP HERE I do wish you'd take your squalidity elsewhere Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 26 Jan 16 - 07:06 AM elsewhere David ben Gurion made it quite clear that he was aware the Israelis had "stolen Arab" lands Not true. More faked quotes jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 26 Jan 16 - 07:09 AM It was the Israelis who drove over five million Palestinians into exile and has persistently refused to allow them to return. Arab lands drove out more Jews than Israelis ever drove out Arabs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 16 - 07:18 AM You're denyin' days are done Keith Tertitoon Accusations of "corruption" ring a little hollow coming from a country which elected the man responsible for the massacre of 3,000 unarmed refugees Prime Minister, doncha think!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 26 Jan 16 - 07:20 AM Poor try Terriblossom. I can produce maps that do not show France, Germany, Italy, Serbia, Bosnia et al in their present borders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 26 Jan 16 - 07:29 AM You're denyin' days are done Keith It seems your lying days will never be done. elsewhere David ben Gurion made it quite clear that he was aware the Israelis had "stolen Arab" lands Not true. Produce one clear, uncontentious example Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 26 Jan 16 - 07:46 AM 'you have continually castigated me, even to the length of describing me as "Antisemitic", for going beyond symbolism and criticising the realities of the situation' .,,. I accept that I have probably overstated the case on occasion, Jim; but it seems to me nevertheless that there have been times when you have at least verged on that 2005 definition of antisemitism by the EUMC {The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia}, "the practice of disguised antisemitism masquerading as legitimate criticism of Israel". I repeat I do not wish to over-exaggerate this; but what would seem to be your pertinacious "Israel can do no right in any circumstances" attitude & tone can, let us say, appear to give such an unfortunate impression. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:20 AM "I accept that I have probably overstated the case on occasion" We both are guilty of this Mike- it happens in passionate argument My apologies, when I have. "it seems to me nevertheless that there have been times when you have at least verged on that 2005 definition of antisemitism" If that's true we both have - attributing the actions of the Israeli regime to the Jewish People by describing criticism of the actions of that regime as "Antisemitic" - is in breach of the definition. I have to say I am uneasy about the definition anyway - that you can't compare the actions of the Israeli Government to that of the Nazis, when in some cases it is highly comparable is somewhaat suspect. Jews as early as Einstein and his fellow signatories, the ex-head of Mossad who stopped short of making such a comparison... and many other examples of loyal Israeli citizens using terms like 'reminiscent to the holocaust' or, 'Ethnic cleansing' - all cast doubt of that particular clause of the definition. It has recently been amended to take into account what is now happening - much to the anger of the present leadership. I have at no time directed my criticism at 'The Jews' - I leave that to Netanyahu, Bearded Bruce, and their ilk. I believe the present leadership, unfortunately with a large following, have betrayed the the ideals of the State of Israel, just as I believe that various "Communist!!!" and "Socialist!!!" leaders beytrayed the dreams of people who believe the world is severely in need of a change for the better. I believe the Jews have become just as much victims of the present situation as have the Palestinian and (not to mention those of us who are not involved but are still under the shadow). I have always spoken out about what I believe has happened to the left - I see no reason not to speak out about what I believe has happened to The State of Israel - just as much a dream of my family upbringing as was Socialism. Perhaps it's time we called "fainites." Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Dave Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:34 AM Palestine comes from the same root, Peleset, as Philistine, and they were one of the Sea Peoples who colonised the Eastern Mediterranean in the second millenium BC. Sure, they have been occupied since by Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Israelites, Romans, Byzantines, Selucids, Abbasids, Mongols, Ottomans, British, and many many more, and sure there will be lots of interbreeding to like the other populations in the area they will not be genetically pure, but to say they were never a country is nonsense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Dave Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:41 AM MGM, that definition was heavily criticised by Brian Klug amongst others, and has never been recommended to member states for adoption. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:50 AM if you consider that an immigrant's status is illegal, it is OK to hack them to death. You want to take that question up with Donald Trump, Marco Rubio & Ted Cruz, Professor. were these knife attacks in Israel proper (i.e. pre-1967) or in the occupied West Bank? "About 26 Israelis, an American student and one Palestinian bystander have been killed in Palestinian stabbings, car rammings and gun attacks since Oct. 1. In the same period, about 150 Palestinians have been killed. The Palestinians and most of the world view the Jewish West Bank settlements as a violation of international law and as an obstacle to the establishment of a Palestinian state. Palestinians say the frustrations caused by the Israeli occupation are at the root of the outburst of violence." http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/27/world/middleeast/israeli-palestinian-attack-beit-horon.html?_r=0 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 26 Jan 16 - 08:58 AM You want to take that question up with Donald Trump, Marco Rubio & Ted Cruz, Professor. No. It is only Jews being hacked to death because of where they live. Palestinians say the frustrations caused by the Israeli occupation are at the root of the outburst of violence." So it is OK to hack to death any immigrant whose status you question? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:03 AM Tragedy: Shlomit Krigman, 24, has succumbed to her wounds from yesterday's terror attack in Beit Horon. Shlomit was a 'komanirit' in her sherut leumi for Bnai Akiva in Beit Horon. Shlomit was visiting her grandparents who reside there when she was murdered by the terrorists in the makolet where she was going to buy food for her grandparents. Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:03 AM Go back to sleep, Professor. the practice of disguised antisemitism masquerading as legitimate criticism of Israel". Equally, if not MORE pernicious and dishonest is legitimate criticism of Israel being derided and dismissed as antisemitism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:06 AM has never been recommended to member states for adoption. See:London Declaration on Combating Antisemitism and The Ottawa Protocol on Combating Antisemitism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Musket Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:07 AM Gosh Terribulus. Those Foreign Office jobbies stationed in Palestine pre 1948 must have been fiddling their expenses then if their postings didn't exist. Are you sure? You normally defend the establishment. By the way, when Palestinian junior doctors come here to finish training, The General Medical Council accepts "Palestine" as country of origin, putting it as such on their registration if they so wish. Judging a nation by Arafat is like judging us by Haig or other militaristic monsters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Dave Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:21 AM Nameless Guest, neither of those constitutes recognition by any state. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Dave Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:23 AM Greg, that was precisely Brian Klug's point, and why he criticised the EUMC definition. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:31 AM Contrary to what apologists aver, the current wave of stabbings is not a reaction to occupation it is a reaction to an invented threat to the al-Aqsa mosque created by the leaders of Palestine's Muslims. They have used this fabrication to manipulate the emotions of Muslims convincing them that they must protect the Temple Mount from Jews. These emotions are also being flamed by the PA and particularly by Abbas with outrageous statements such as this one which he made on Official PA TV on September 16, 2015: "We bless you, we bless the Murabitin (those carrying out Ribat, religious conflict/war to protect land claimed to be Islamic), we bless every drop of blood that has been spilled for Jerusalem, which is clean and pure blood, blood spilled for Allah, Allah willing. Every Martyr (Shahid) will reach Paradise, and everyone wounded will be rewarded by Allah. The Al-Aqsa [Mosque] is ours, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is ours, and they have no right to defile them with their filthy feet. We will not allow them to, and we will do everything in our power to protect Jerusalem." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 16 - 09:53 AM Tried to goodle your top quote to find its source - no luck, but interestingly, it came up with THIS Your second quote comes from Palestine Media Watch - an employee of the Israeli Government Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 26 Jan 16 - 10:07 AM The quote comes from Abbas which he made on PA TV, it was reported by PMW among other sources. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 26 Jan 16 - 10:10 AM You can watch him making it on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4Mq63fUwEo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 26 Jan 16 - 10:44 AM 0903 A reasonable antithesis, GregF, one is bound in justice to admit. Dave -- well, hmmmm ... This Dr Klug, I find from Wiki, is a fellow of an Oxford college... Nuff said?! ≈M≈ MA Cantab |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 26 Jan 16 - 11:17 AM I can keep this propaganda up as long as you continue to ignore the facts of what is happening It is people like you, with your soft bigotry of low expectations for the Palestinian people, who refuse to admit to any culpability of the Palestinians and their leaders for the situation they find themselves in. When and if they ever get honest and responsible leaders who genuinely want peace and prosperity for their people and not use them as pawns to try and achieve some diabolical goal, Israel is ready and willing to talk as they have demonstrated on numerous occasions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 26 Jan 16 - 11:29 AM New antisemitism From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Part of a series on Antisemitism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism#United_Kingdom ·····Lengthy & somewhat diffuse, but overall IMO interesting and worthwhile and relevant, Wikipedia article. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 26 Jan 16 - 11:34 AM "the Israelis who drove over five million Palestinians into exile" What!!!! In 1948??? What on earth do you think the population of the reduced (1923) Mandated TERRITORY of Palestine was? The population was less than 2 million so would you care to explain exactly out of a total population of less than 2 million the Israelis managed to drive 5 million Palestinians into exile? [Simply dying to hear the explanation] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 26 Jan 16 - 11:43 AM Just a simple question MGM, did you actually study for an MA or was it awarded as a matter of course as I believe is/was the case for Oxbridge students. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 26 Jan 16 - 11:46 AM GUEST,Raggytash - 26 Jan 16 - 07:20 AM "Poor try Terriblossom. I can produce maps that do not show France, Germany, Italy, Serbia, Bosnia et al in their present borders." Of course you can Raggy, but I liked the qualification you just slipped in there at the tail - "in their present borders." - so show me a map that predates 1970 that shows a COUNTRY called Palestine on a map. Now as we are discussing the creation of Israel from the former League of Nations Mandated Territory of Palestine (77% of which was hived off solely and exclusively for Arab settlement in 1923) To counter your claim that Palestine existed prior to Arafat's creation of it in the early 1970s I thought the map of the area of the previous owners might be of interest and guess what Raggy - no mention of Palestine to be seen anywhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 26 Jan 16 - 11:51 AM Arab refugee: Arabs left Israel in 1948 because of leadership's promise that it would be temporary YouTube |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Jan 16 - 12:20 PM More What!!!! In 1948??? What on earth do you think the population of the reduced (1923) Mandated TERRITORY of Palestine was? More aggressive biullshit when will you ever learn Jim Carroll AUPHR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 26 Jan 16 - 12:23 PM Guest at 1143 -- It's indeed just a Cambridge MA, which BA's proceed to automatically, I believe it's 11 terms after graduation, as earnest of their being admitted to the University Senate; which is only a formality also, at that, as the only time it has done me any good was to be able to vote for Brian Blessed as University Chancellor a few years back -- and then he didn't win. Doesn't even get me a badge for any of the University car parks! Oh, yes, it does entitle me to some occasional High Table dinners at my old college -- must remember to go & claim one, one of these fine years! Mysterious are the ways of these ancient foundations! ≈M≈ Back to terrorism in Mideast! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 26 Jan 16 - 12:33 PM It wasn't actually awarded "as a matter of course", mind; why, iirc I had to pay a seven guinea "administration fee" for it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 26 Jan 16 - 01:53 PM Palestine during the last 70 years I did notice you made no mention of the bible or the romans Terriblossom |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 26 Jan 16 - 03:46 PM "no mention of the bible or the romans" Thought you and your pals had no time for anything said in the bible - the Romans used the term "Palestine" in exactly the same way the League of Nations did a way of describing a collection of districts Idumea; Judea; Samaria; Galilee; Decapolis; Perea; Nabatea. Like the original Mandate defined by the League of Nations Roman Palestine was much larger than the amended 1923 League of Nations version. Nice try at deflecting the discussion Raggy - hasn't worked - Oh dear, how sad, never mind. Palestine as a nation and "Palestinians" as a people were invented by Yasser Arafat as a means of making money sometime in the early 1970s. Not found that map I take it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 26 Jan 16 - 07:21 PM Bit of a contradiction there Territowelling. You seem to accept that a Roman Palestine did indeed exist that was larger than the 1923 version, again Palestine. So please clarify. Did Palestine exist in Roman (and biblical times) and did it exist in 1923. As regards a link to the map, a mistake on my part. Have a look at the second map on the second line. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,dullardry Date: 27 Jan 16 - 12:23 AM Let off a bomb Start a school Cut off a head Build a clinic Pick your side |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Musket Date: 27 Jan 16 - 02:08 AM Interesting article On BBC news website. The UN defending the right of the Palestinian oppressed to defend themselves against Israeli aggression. Ban ki Moon coming off the fence. Meanwhile, Israeli militants have killed 155 Palestinians since October. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Jan 16 - 03:26 AM "I did notice you made no mention of the bible or the romans Terriblossom" Don't hold your breath Raggy - these clowns don't do 'answers' Terry the Thunderer beligerates that Arafat invented Palestine for money - then silence when that one is shot down Keith demands contradiction that Ban Ki-Moon condemns Palestinians - you give it to him - silence again. Brainless Bruce (he without the balls to post under his chosen identity and who denies himself when recognised) claims that Israel isn't a theocracy (one of the widest know facts in the conflict) - show him it is - silence. These guys deal only in silence (though Terrytoon is rather blusteringly loud about it). They are a trio of know-nothings without the nouse even to hide their ignorance. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Jan 16 - 03:42 AM Keith demands contradiction that Ban Ki-Moon condemns Palestinians BBC 7 hours ago. "Speaking at the UN Security Council, Mr Ban also condemned recent stabbings of Israelis by Palestinians." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35414822 None of you liberal-lefties have yet condemned the knifing of immigrants on grounds of race, which is what is happening.i>Keith demands contradiction that Ban Ki-Moon condemns Palestinians |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Musket Date: 27 Jan 16 - 03:50 AM Everybody condemns it Keith. Why wouldn't anybody? The reason it isn't relevant in these posts is that we are discussing the rogue state of Israel and their aggressive terrorism of neighbours. Sure, said neighbours defend themselves and as with most people, blur defence. What is a liberal leftie by the way, and can you point me to his or her posts? 💤 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:02 AM ""Speaking at the UN Security Council, Mr Ban also condemned recent stabbings of Israelis by Palestinians."" I'm sure he did Keith - that wasn't your question Ban Ki- Moon condemned Israel for killing children - your question was did he support them It's taken a week for you to respond and even then you had to be smoked out - which was the point I was making. Of course he condemns street stabbings - everybody condemns the random killing of innocent people, except people like you, who supports it when it happens to thousands - by tanks, rockets, chemicals..... or even by killers sent in to slaughter thousands of unarmed refugees - just as long as it's done in the name of the State of Israel. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:07 AM Ban Ki- Moon condemned Israel for killing children Quote please. rogue state of Israel and their aggressive terrorism of neighbours Quote/example please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:12 AM except people like you, who supports it when it happens to thousands - by tanks, rockets, chemicals. Disgusting personal slur. Of course I never have. Will you produce a quote? Of course not. That is not what you do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:24 AM "Of course I never have." Yes you have - from day one A quote - where to start - there have been no massacres - Sabra/Shatila - 2014 slaughter.... all - "Israel is innocent" - and that's without the persecution in the form of evictions, chemical spraying, moving Bedouins onto toxic dumps, a ten-year blockade to starve Palestinians into submission - and all the other non or long term fatalities you have defended by blaming the victims. Your record speaks for itself and hangs around your neck like a plague bell. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:25 AM Everybody condemns it Keith. Not in your posts. Jim started a whole thread condemning wristbands to enable immigrants to claim welfare, but not a word about murdering them because of their race. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:30 AM Gaza 2014. Israel was subjected to indiscriminate attacks on its civilians from terrorists hiding among civilians. It was a victim of war crimes. It had a right and duty to respond, and tried to do so without breaking international law. The civilian deaths were the result of Hamas' war crimes not Israel's. Beirut 1982. An Arab militia carried out a reprisal massacre in the Sabra/Shatilla camp. Other massacres also occurred in those camps. All were committed by Arabs not Israelis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:30 AM "but not a word about murdering them because of their race." What!!!! I have always condemned the racist murder of anybody - immigrants or otherwise - always. You people have accused me so seeing racists under the bed. Don't you dare attempt to smear me with your own racism Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:31 AM Jim, "Israel is innocent" Fake quote. I have never said that. Will you produce a genuine quote? No. You can't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:33 AM I have always condemned the racist murder of anybody - immigrants or otherwise - always. You have not once condemned the stabbing of Jews. Or, show us a quote. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Musket Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:34 AM "Not. You can't" Ah, familiar territory. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 27 Jan 16 - 06:34 AM No sniping from the sidelines Musket , jim dosen't like it ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Jan 16 - 09:12 AM "You have not once condemned the stabbing of Jews." Yes I have Keith - I have just said "everybody condemns the random killing of innocent people, except people like you" - that was my case about rocket attacks and is also my view about these attacks. I have pointed out that I believe the taking of human is basically evil - I refuse to specify one or the other - ALL HUMAN LIFE (thought it was a Christian ethic - obviously not). What I do say is what is happening at present is not unconnected with the slaughter of 2,104 Palestinian dead, including 1,462 civilians - 344 children And 110 women - the stabbings are the direct consequence of the actions of the Israeli regime - that does not justify them, it just explains why they are happening Youre argument from day one is that Israel never did what it ahs been see to do over and over again - not responsible for massacres, Sabra Shatila, killing of civilians.... nothing You even said at one stage that you were JUST PUTTING THE ISRAELI CASE Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Musket Date: 27 Jan 16 - 12:09 PM Jim's likes and dislikes aren't my concern here. On these matters he is generally on the side of the Angels, even if his logic and reasoning occasionally makes it easy for those with odious agendas to ridicule his detail. Meanwhile Ban ki Moon has at last joined the ranks of reason, castigating Israel for occupation and terrorism. Once the pro Israel dollars can no longer buy respect for slaughter, all sides might have to sit down and negotiate after all, but as with US gun law, you need honest politicos first. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Jan 16 - 02:09 PM Youre argument from day one is that Israel never did what it ahs been see to do over and over again - not responsible for massacres, Sabra Shatila, killing of civilians. I have put Israel's case as you have put the opposite case. Why do you object to both sides being put? castigating Israel for occupation and terrorism. No. He has not castigated Israel for terrorism. Why claim it? He did refer to "occupation." That is an interpretation of the situation, but many do not share it. "No. You can't" Ah, familiar territory. Familiar yes. When Jim accuses me of saying things I never have and never would say, I point out that he is lying again and can not give a quote because it is a lie. I ask Jim to respond to what I say and not lie that I have said things that I have not said. I ask that he debates the issues instead of trying to demonize me personally with lies. Reasonable request I think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,hoLo Date: 27 Jan 16 - 02:12 PM Sorry, I got ahead of myself. ..... Even if his logic and reasoning, etc... Well, yes, it does make it easy to disagree with him, Of course it is not " odious" to disagree with such hateful rubbish as Jim spouts here., there is no logic or reason to it' just unremitting , over the top rants. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 27 Jan 16 - 02:20 PM such hateful rubbish Hateful rubbish - like claiming that anyone who criticises Israeli government policy is an antisemite, Hi? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Jan 16 - 02:38 PM like claiming that anyone who criticises Israeli government policy is an antisemite, But, no-one here has ever claimed that Greg. It has been claimed that anti-Semites habitually criticise Israel, but that is a fact. What is your point? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 27 Jan 16 - 02:54 PM But, no-one here has ever claimed that Greg. Either your reading comprehension skills need improvemment, Professor, or you haven't been paying attention. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Jan 16 - 03:17 PM "I ask Jim to respond to what I say and not lie that I have said things that I have not said" No I don't - show where I have When I produce of something you claim not to have said - you usually either go on justifying it or balme somebody else, like a real Historian" or an "expert" and blame them for putting you up to it. You don't even have the balls to stand by your own opinions. "But, no-one here has ever claimed that Greg." WHAT!!!!!! Brainless Bruce does it ll the time, Mike has done it, you have done it in the past - it's the standard get-out-of-jail card in these discussions. You really do need an honesty implant (not a cultural one) You demonise yourself with your dishonesty and stupidity Still no sign of your evidence for all those claims and dismissals - Benny Morris's supposed contradictors, 6 Day War massacres, Sabra Shatila evidence, Israel attempts to destroy International Criminal Court, 2014 massacres that didn't happen..... Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:08 PM anyone who criticises Israeli government policy is an antisemite no one here has done that but: Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective - such as, especially but not exclusively - the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy, or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions. CHECK Applying double standards by requiring of it behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation CHECK Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis. CHECK Let it be clear: Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, and saying so is wrong. But singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium - let alone denying its right to exist or seeking its destruction - is discriminatory and hateful, and not saying so is dishonest. CHECK |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 27 Jan 16 - 04:53 PM Greg, Either your reading comprehension skills need improvemment, Professor, or you haven't been paying attention. No Greg. No-one here has ever claimed, "that anyone who criticises Israeli government policy is an antisemite." You will find none. Jim, No I don't - show where I have "Israel is innocent" Fake quote. I have never said that. "people like you, who supports it when it happens to thousands - by tanks, rockets, chemicals..... or even by killers sent in to slaughter thousands of unarmed refugees - just as long as it's done in the name of the State of Israel." Completely untrue and made up. Lies Jim. If you had a case you would not have to resort to telling lies about me. Why not just discuss the issues instead of always making it personal against me? Brainless Bruce does it ll the time, Mike has done it, you have done it in the past Not true. No-one here has ever claimed, "that anyone who criticises Israeli government policy is an antisemite." You will not find one. Still no sign of your evidence for all those claims and dismissals - Benny Morris's supposed contradictors, 6 Day War massacres, Sabra Shatila evidence, Israel attempts to destroy International Criminal Court, 2014 massacres that didn't happen..... Put your claims up one at a time and I will address them all. No-one could begin to deal with all that shit in one thread never mind one post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 27 Jan 16 - 05:01 PM An Israeli man was wounded Wednesday night in a suspected terror stabbing at a gas station outside the West Bank settlement of Givat Ze'ev, north of Jerusalem. The man was treated by medical teams that arrived at the scene. The Magen David Adom first-aid service said he was stabbed in the upper body and moderately to severely wounded. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Earlier Wednesday, a Palestinian teen was arrested on suspicion that he had attempted to stab a soldier at the Qalandiya checkpoint near Jerusalem. There were no injuries in the incident. During a routine army search on a bus at the checkpoint, the teenager was asked to show his identity card, and when he failed to do so, was requested to step out of the vehicle. At that point the 17-year-old pulled out a knife and tried to assault an IDF soldier, but the weapon fell from his hand, police said. Terrorism, Again (Israel).....indeed! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 27 Jan 16 - 05:07 PM "Mike has done it" ... ONLY within the context of comparison with Nazism, which is one of that EUMC's definitions of antisemitism. You shouldn't suggest that I make a habit of denouncing any criticism of Israel's government as antisemitism. I have had some not entirely favorable things to say of it/them myself, for that matter! ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 27 Jan 16 - 05:54 PM Let,s be honest here. I have lived in Israel. The Israel Jim describes does not exist. His version of that country is filled with vitriol, distortions and bloody rubbish. call that what you will, but his utter hatred of that country is driven not by reasoned debate, but by a skewed and demonizing point of view. not only is Israel demonized, but those who disagree with him are "odious" and even anti Semitic . please do spare us the pretence and call it what it is...an irrational and obsessive hate for that country...about which he knows less than nothing. So please , give up on facts, facts don!t interest him. and for Gods sake, don,t cower under to his accusations of bigotry, it is his favourite ploy and I am sick to death of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Brian May Date: 27 Jan 16 - 06:14 PM Over the years I've visited this site, the same old names crop up - whatever the subject, with diametrically opposed views. They then savage each other with accusations and counter-accusations of who said what when. I'm beginning to think that it's just one schizophrenic with multiple logins . . . Don't you ever get tired with arguing with each other? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 27 Jan 16 - 06:25 PM Greg, there is nothing wrong with anyone's reading comprehension skills here, we are not all stupid . Some of us understand what is going on here. And please do stop this foolishness about calling critics of Israel anti semetic, it is a very tired tactic. You ought to read these threads more carefully, and you also need to find some subjects you know something about, comment on them, but please do your homework and stop being so off hand about a subject the nuances of which escape you! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Jan 16 - 05:13 AM " CHECK" Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel. CHECK However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. CHECK "No I don't - show where I have "Israel is innocent"" Right – let's give it a try and see how we go. 1 Jewish forces were responsible for 24 massacres during the Arab/Israeli War – if this os disputed, please show True or false? 2 Israel has a history of massacres dating to the beginning of the state Massacres by Israeli troops and special forces took place in the fifites, sixties seventies, 80s,,, in fact, up to the present day Treu or false? 3 Towards the end of the Six Day War, Israeli officers ordered the execution of unarmed prisoners, then, having odered their buriel, ordered the killing of the gravediggers, selected from among the remaining prisoners, in otder to conceal the crime True or false? 4 Using the pretence of searching for fighters and weapons, the Israeli army, under the leadership of Ariel Sharon, transported and armed Christian right-wing Falangists troops to the Sabra/Shatila refugee camps, opened the gates and stood by while, for there days, they massacred up to 3,500 unarmed refugee men women and children. The three-day massacre included the mass rape of women, followed by throat-cutting, the disembowelling of living women and the tearing of the foetuses from their wombs. One eye-witness survivor testified that she appealed to an Israeli soldier who was standing by as she was being dragged away – he turned his back on her. So the massacre could continue throughout the night, the Israeli army provided illumination by flares – at the gates, they turned back refuges trying to escape. At the end of three days, the army provided bulldozers to bury the bodies – eventually they built a Sports Stadium over the mass graves, ascertaining that the exact number of dead will never be known. The Army then transported the killers from the scene – they have never been brought to justice The man in charge of the Israeli troops, Ariel Sharon, was later elected Prime Minister of Israel No democratic modern country has ever elected any individual accused, let alone found partially guilty of such a crime into high office – nowhere. True or false? 5 In 2015, Israel invaded Gaza, leaving 2,104 Palestinian dead, including 1,462 civilians - 344 children. The destruction included hospitals, schools, health centres, elderly care homes and many thousands of domestic dwellings, many of these still occupied. On one occasion, the officials of a hospital informed an Israeli officer that they were unable to evacuate the patients because of their advanced ages and condition – the officer instructed them to stay where they were and, the following morning, bombarded the hospital with rockets and tank fire. Followin the fighting, parties of Israeli troops wandered around the rubble picking off survivors. True or false? 6 Since the invasion teh Israelis have fought tooth and nail to avoid standing trial - they have proposed that The International War Crimes Court be closed down/ Should this happen, there will be no International independant body to try the present war crimes taking place by people like Assad and Isis. True or false? There you go – try that for size, blue eyes. "The Israel Jim describes does not exist. " What we saw on tele over the last decade is all lies then Lilo – jeeze – not another one Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 28 Jan 16 - 05:25 AM ItsHiLo Jim. You are an obsessive hater . If your description of Israel comes from a decade of telly watching, I do wonder what channels you take in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Jan 16 - 06:00 AM It is all tosh Jim. Choose one of your claims and we will look at it in detail. What are you afraid of? Being proved deluded? Having it all shown to be tosh? You are right to fear that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 28 Jan 16 - 06:12 AM Jim Carroll - 28 Jan 16 - 05:13 AM More baseless and unsubstantiated allegations Jim?? Example or Point 3 is very reminiscent of your WWI fable about summary executions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Jan 16 - 06:39 AM "It is all tosh Jim." That'll do nicely Keith Israel "didn't do anything" - just what you accused my of lying about. Piss of with "choose one of your claims" - you don't even have scroll up the thread - they are there for the choosing Start with one, if you wish and work your way down - suits me. I don't need to dig out evidence for any single one of these claims - they have all been presented over and over again " Choose one of your claims and we will look at it in detail." Pompous pratt - all looked at in detail dozens of times. " Example or Point 3 is very reminiscent of your WWI fable about summary executions." And just like my WW1 claim - linmked to indisputable evidence. You want to give Keith a hand as he seems incapable of dealing with half-a-dozen words at a time? Thought not Lie down, you pair of tossers -you're long dead Thanks again for the confirmation |Keith -apology not expected. Game, set and match again "If your description of Israel comes from a decade of telly watching" My information comes from a lifetime of supporting the State of Israel - my family did so from the beginning and were on the streets fighting Mosely when the Jews were being attacked. Criticism of the Isreali regime, from Einstien's "massacres", from Haaretz claiming "ethnic cleansing" and "persecution of Bedoins", from Israeli critics who have described Israel as "an apartheid State"..... and much much more - has always been backed with and, where possible - linked to direct evidence - where is yours Lilo? Before you ask - no, I haven't been to Israel and I am as likely to go there aws I was to Apartheid South Africa. Still have the postcard from a late dear friend Tom Munnelly, who attended an International Ballad Conference in Jerusalem and described it as resembling a military dictatorship - his closing words were "Beam me up Scotty" (Tommy always did have a way with words) Sorry that should have been "trio of tossers" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 28 Jan 16 - 06:55 AM Typical Jim response...'lifetime supporting Israel, his family attacked the Moselys, Einstein agrees with Jim Carroll, he had a friend who went to Jerusalem, Jim watches ten years of telly, those who call him on his gross distortions are tossers, And his friend had a way with words .....ah Jim , you are so predictable! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Jan 16 - 07:08 AM Start with one, if you wish and work your way down - suits me. Ok Jim. 5 In 2015, Israel invaded Gaza, leaving 2,104 Palestinian dead, including 1,462 civilians - 344 children. Israel was subjected to indiscriminate attacks on its civilians from terrorists hiding among civilians. It was a victim of war crimes. It had a right and duty to respond, and tried to do so without breaking international law. The civilian deaths were the result of Hamas' war crimes not Israel's. No decent democratic government believes Israel guilty of any massacre or atrocity. They know it is all propaganda, but deluded hate filled people like you suck it all up without a question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Jan 16 - 07:16 AM No excuse of the atrocities done during the invasion the destructuion of occupied hospitals, he unprecedented killing of so many children (according to Ban Ki-Moon) or women and old people. "No decent democratic government believes Israel guilty of any massacre or atrocity." Every single human rights group has accused it of these - not interested what self-interested politicians think. Not done too well so far - no evidence, just denials "Israel didn't do it" Now how about that rest of number 5? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Jan 16 - 07:20 AM "lifetime supporting Israel, his family attacked the Moselys.... all of which beats anything you have offered to date. You missed ourt the reams of evidence which has been put up - which you are welcome to demolish Your're not even as good at this as Keith or Terrytoon, are you Lilo? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 28 Jan 16 - 07:36 AM You have put up speculation, distortions, propaganda and rubbish. There is no point giving facts, you ignore them. people who are obsessed and consumed by hate red need to be confronted at every turn. . and it is HiLo Jim, name calling is not what grown ups do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Jan 16 - 07:37 AM just denials "Israel didn't do it" Not what I said at all. I just gave Israel's side of the story. the destructuion of occupied hospitals, Hamas was operating and fighting from the hospitals. They put the hospital in harm's way, not Israel which was acting in defence of civilians. killing of so many children (according to Ban Ki-Moon) or women and old people. The civilian deaths were the result of Hamas' war crimes not Israel's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Jan 16 - 07:39 AM Guardian last June. "Ban Ki-moon leaves Israel off list of countries that kill or injure children" http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/08/ban-ki-moon-leaves-israel-off-list-of-countries-that-violate-childrens-rights |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 28 Jan 16 - 08:01 AM 2 Days Ago, not 7 months |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 16 - 08:04 AM HiLo, I have long ago stopped reading Carroll's screeds, they made me physically ill. I may look at the first few words that's all I need to see. I see very little difference between his ravings and those of antisemitic white supremacists and neo-Nazis which I would not read either. A friend, who is a long time member, stopped reading the Israel threads because his, and a couple others, hateful views were adversely affecting his blood pressure. Thankfully, my blood pressure is good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 28 Jan 16 - 08:04 AM Yesterday, not 7 months ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Jan 16 - 08:10 AM "Not what I said at all." True - what you actually said is "It is all tosh Jim." Bit of a loss to spot the difference Ban Ki-Moon Missed a bit. "but says number of dead and wounded Palestinian children is unacceptable" Look Keith - unless you are going to provide proof that they didn't do what I say they have - you may as well just put "they didn't do it" and save yourself the trouble. Until you do, my points remain - prove them wrong don't just deny them. The same goes for you Lilo If wat I have put up is "propaganda and rubbish" - prove it I have linked every single point to masses of evidence - where's yours? See 23 Jan 16 - 04:20 AM and following posts. You are not even trying Piss or get off the pot Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 Jan 16 - 08:23 AM My word, Jim. Some impressive research there! Well done! Must have taken you hours! Just one question arising: What, precisely, was it all for? Just asking. Try just asking yourself. As ever שלום ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Jan 16 - 08:26 AM The bits you didn't draw attention to in your Ban Ki-Moon defence Officials said the UN special envoy for children in armed conflict, Leila Zerrougui, had recommended that both Israel and Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip, be placed on the report's list of parties that recruit, use, kill, maim or commit acts of sexual violence against children. But the officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because the recommendation was not public, said there were differences of opinion among those on the ground on whether Israel should be listed – a key reason why it wasn't and neither was Hamas. The report, covering 2014, includes Israel and "the state of Palestine" in a 33-paragraph section on "grave violations committed against children during armed conflict". It cites escalating hostilities in Gaza and a significant increase in tensions in the West Bank, "with devastating impacts for children". In Gaza, at least 561 children – 557 Palestinians and 4 Israelis – were killed, and 4,271 were injured, all but 22 of them Palestinians, the report said. In the West Bank, 13 Palestinian boys and three Israeli youths were killed and 1,218 children The secretary general urged Israel "to take concrete and immediate steps, including by reviewing existing policies and practices, to protect children, to prevent the killing and maiming of children, and to respect the special protections afforded to schools and hospitals". He also urged Israel to ensure accountability for perpetrators of alleged violations. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 Jan 16 - 08:29 AM The literal meaning of שלום BTW is PEACE But then, with some of your best friends being Jews &·all·that·jazz, I daresay you knew that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 Jan 16 - 08:36 AM ...and couldn't everybody please·pretty·please just note? ----- MOSLEY AINTOS* -- Accuracy matters ≈M≈ - OLP (Official·Legendary·Pedant) *'As I Never Tire Of Saying' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Jan 16 - 08:50 AM "but says number of dead and wounded Palestinian children is unacceptable" But he does not hold Israel responsible. killing of so many children (according to Ban Ki-Moon) or women and old people. Not true Jim. Ki-Moon does not accuse Israel of killing children. You made that up. unless you are going to provide proof that they didn't do what I say they have You and Israel's enemies say they did. Israel and the democratic countries say they did not. You have no "proof" Jim? It is just propaganda. I have linked every single point to masses of evidence No you have not. Just claims and accusations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Dave Date: 28 Jan 16 - 08:56 AM We went through this Keith. Its Mr. Ban, or Ban Ki-Moon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Jan 16 - 08:58 AM Says who, and why? Is there any confusion over who is being referred to? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 16 - 09:12 AM Jan. 26, 2016 Dear Mr. Secretary-General Today you spoke of Palestinian attacks on Israelis and you said "it is human nature to react to occupation". No, It was not human nature for Palestinians, in this past week alone, to stab to death Dafna Meir, a mother of six children, outside her home; to stab Michal Froman, a pregnant woman; or to stab Shlomit Krigman, a 23-year-old university graduate, who just died today from her wounds. It's time for you to stop making excuses and hold Palestinians responsible for their actions - those who murder, and the Fatah, Hamas and other leaders who incite them. Sincerely, Hillel C. Neuer UN Watch |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 Jan 16 - 09:13 AM Keith Oriental names do normally render the single-syllable family name before the bisyllabic personal name:- eg Chiang Kai-Shek was, in our terms, President Chiang; Mao Ze-Dong was Chairman Mao, &c. I learned this while lecturing at universities in China for the British Council on English Folksong a few months before Tienanmen Square. So Ban Ki-moon is indeed Mr Ban, as Dave says; and that is, as you ask, why. They themselves are the ones who say so, so I think we should accept & respect it. Regards ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Jan 16 - 09:18 AM And that's the second time of telling, Keith, in words of one syllable. I'm beginning to suspect that you occasionally don't listen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 Jan 16 - 09:25 AM An analogue is certain Balkan countries where it is usual to put the surname first; so Eugène Ionesco would have been known in his native Romania as Ionesco Evgeny. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Jan 16 - 10:14 AM I asked "why" meaning "why are you making an issue of it." I am sure you are all right about Korean names, but as the man will never read this thread what does it matter? No Oriental Mudcatter has seen fit to complain. There is no danger of misunderstanding who is meant so why try to pretend it is an issue? I think that some people are desperate to make a point however trivial. Jim makes up "facts" but Guest Dave and Steve seem not to care about that. Why the different standard? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 16 - 10:51 AM " Large amounts of foreign aid to the Palestinians are spent to support terrorists and deepen hostility [against Jews]. For years the most senior figures in the Palestinian Authority have supported, condoned and glorified terror. "Every drop of blood that has been spilled in Jerusalem," President Mahmoud Abbas said last September on Palestinian television, "is holy blood as long as it was for Allah." Countless Palestinian officials and state-run television have repeatedly hailed the murder of Jews. This support for terrorism doesn't end with hate speech. The Palestinian regime in Ramallah pays monthly stipends of between $400 and $3,500 to terrorists and their families, the latter of which is more than five times the average monthly salary of a Palestinian worker. According to data from its budgetary reports, compiled in June 2014 by Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the PA's annual budget for supporting Palestinian terrorists was then roughly $75 million..." Wall Street Journal, "Where Does All That Aid for Palestinians Go?," Jan. 25, 2016 Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jeri Date: 28 Jan 16 - 10:58 AM For the record, "GUEST,Brucie" was a handle used by someone who isn't involved in this thread. The person some people think this is, beardedbruce, ALWAYS posts with his name, and is also not involved in this thread. So please, stop calling random guests "Brucie". Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 28 Jan 16 - 11:13 AM Is it OK if we call 'em "Fred"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 16 - 11:13 AM I, for one, am not bothered being called Brucie - it only re-enforces my decision to post anonymously. I enjoy seeing them go apoplectic at not being able to tag a post with a name to launch personal attacks against. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 28 Jan 16 - 11:21 AM It's time for you to stop making excuses and hold Palestinians responsible for their actions Well, Fred, it's PAST time for you to stop making excuses and hold Israel responsible for its actions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 28 Jan 16 - 12:15 PM I think you are a bit late Greg, we got it already. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jeri Date: 28 Jan 16 - 12:17 PM Guest, I know you're "not bothered". You pretty much don't care who's affected by this shit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 28 Jan 16 - 12:20 PM " Example or Point 3 is very reminiscent of your WWI fable about summary executions." And just like my WW1 claim - linmked to indisputable evidence." Thanks for that Jim - best laugh I've had all day - haven't a clue what it was "linmked to" but indisputable "evidence" it most certainly wasn't wrt to your WWI effort - uncorroborated "hearsay" does not constitute evidence in any way, shape, or form - ask Richard Bridge about it Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 28 Jan 16 - 12:27 PM Are moderators now making comments with regard to the quality of the posts..what does "this shit" mean, Jims hateful posts, I presume. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 28 Jan 16 - 12:35 PM I think you are a bit late Greg, we got it already. YOU may have, Hi, but thousands ain't. And certainly Fred doesn't get it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 28 Jan 16 - 12:48 PM We all get it Greg, especially Fred, you just missed it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Musket Date: 28 Jan 16 - 12:52 PM "Richard Bridges" Oh Fuck, there's more than one? 😱 Oh, hang on, the quote was from Terribulus. Disregard his ramblings as ever.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 16 - 01:02 PM Jeri, what are you referring to by "this shit"? If you mean being called Brucie, how is anyone affected by that? If you mean the hate shit, I do care about whoever is affected by it, that's why I'm trying to counter it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Jan 16 - 01:06 PM "But he does not hold Israel responsible." "but says number of dead and wounded Palestinian children is unacceptable" Who does he hold responsible - the Chinese?? Stupid boy. "No you have not. Just claims and accusations." Where''s your evidence apart from Israel saying "we didn't do it?" Doesn't matter - as you ave said often enough - the opinion of one man - a good number of his colleges do (but maybe they're not "real" UN officials who sell their books in "real bookshops" Still "Israel didn't do it" without evidence eh Keith - still game set and match then "haven't a clue what it was "linked to" Last five words superfluous there shipmate. "What, precisely, was it all for?" The fact you have to ask that Mike is indicative of just how critical of the Israeli regime you are - sadly Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 28 Jan 16 - 01:14 PM Musket; you should restrict yourself to subjects you know something about, otherwise you just look foolish. I'd give this up If I were you Jim, you are just embarrassing yourself now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Jan 16 - 01:19 PM Well Jeri, this Guest almost drowned this thread at birth over two weeks ago with his unsupportable Islamophobic nonsense. Look back at the first few posts. Or did he? Was it two of 'em? Three? Team Guest? Well you clearly know who you're talking to, a privilege withheld from the rest of us. Make him log in, make him use a unique moniker. Or don't bother. Don't even bother telling us why you won't. But, if you don't bother, you have no reason to complain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 28 Jan 16 - 01:25 PM "but says number of dead and wounded Palestinian children is unacceptable" I think it is too. I think that the responsibility for those deaths lies with those who attack civilians with lethal missiles and bombs while hiding among their own civilians. Mr Ban specifically excluded Israel from blame for the deaths of civilians. Your claim, the atrocities done during the invasion the destructuion of occupied hospitals, he unprecedented killing of so many children (according to Ban Ki-Moon) was made up Jim! Where''s your evidence apart from Israel saying "we didn't do it?" Where's your evidence apart from saying Israel is guilty? You and Israel's enemies accuse it of atrocities and massacres. Israel denies any such, and no decent democracy holds them responsible. They have the facts and know it is just hate fuelled propaganda. Try not to be so gullible Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 Jan 16 - 01:32 PM "re-enforces my decision to post anonymously. I enjoy seeing them go apoplectic at not being able to tag a post with a name to launch personal attacks against." .,,. Does it not occur to you, Mr Pathetic·Guest, that the main impression the rest of us receive from this is of a cowardly, evasive, pusillanimous, contemptible nonentity [in a most literal sense!]? My opinion is that you should be thoroughly ashamed of your pathetic self, not indulge in such petty triumphalism as manifested above. Signed, non-anonymously, ≈MGM≈ "The fact you have to ask that Mike is indicative of just how critical of the Israeli regime you are - sadly Jim Carroll" Have to ask WHAT, precisely, Jim? Lost me, I'm afraid; but that's nothing new. Your posts have many virtues, such as forcefulness and integrity; but I don't think your best friends could claim that consistent hyaline clarity and comprehensibility are always among them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 16 - 01:53 PM So, MGM, do I take it from your post that you enjoy seeing personal attacks? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 Jan 16 - 02:08 PM I can't see how you extrapolate that interpretation from what I posted; perhaps you could specify what I said to lead you to that conclusion. I have, in common with most who from time to time express opinions not uniformly in accord with the sort of PC·ness which tends to obtain among many Mudcatters, received a certain number of what might be regarded as personal attacks over the years that I have been contributing to this forum; and have endeavoured to take them in my stride as far as possible. I should think little of myself if I had simply evaded them by disguising my identity as you do. I repeat, I regard such stratagem as pathetically pusillanimous, and should be ashamed to 'cover my back' by resorting to such cowardly evasions. ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 28 Jan 16 - 02:12 PM Hi, BBrucie! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 16 - 02:28 PM I can't see how you extrapolate that interpretation from what I posted; perhaps you could specify what I said to lead you to that conclusion. I stated that my reason for posting anonymously was to thwart those who resort to personal attack against anyone who disagrees with their point of view. I took it that by being called all those names by you means you don't approve of me doing so. From that I infer that you would prefer to see the personal attacks which BTW I had been subjected to mercilessly before deciding to post anonymously, which is if I may remind you, within the rules of the forum. I have also stated the same opinions on the subject of this thread many times previously under my member name and even corresponded with you by PM on occasion so neither cowardice nor evasiveness are my motives. Believe what you will. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 28 Jan 16 - 02:31 PM Poor, poor pitiful Guest. Mommie! they're picking on meeee!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Jan 16 - 02:42 PM "Have to ask WHAT, precisely, Jim? Lost me, I'm afraid; " I'm sure I have Mike - none so lost as he who does not wish to be found. I did the research to cover every point that Keith has claimed "Israel didn't do " - couldn't have hoped for a better result - he said "Israel didn't do it - or - "It is all tosh Jim." - same song, different tune. "here's your evidence apart from saying Israel is guilty?" You've had reams of it Keith - from Human Rights Groups (whoops - you're not into Human Rights - much prefer the silence of politicians) Yo said toy never claimed Israel is innocent" - you lied - that hsi been your claim all along and it continues to be now. You have not attempted to make a case - any of you. You ones vehemently denied you supported eh killing of hostages, yet your entire defence for 2014 is based on just that. I'm sorely tempted to ask Mike, as someone I regard as intelligent, what he thinks of your defence that Israel "didn't do it because "democratic countries" (who trade with Saudi Arabia, Russia, and numerous other dictatorships - specifically targeting the worst for arms sales) wouldn't have anything to do with them if they had - but I won't embarrass him by dong so. Must be something more interesting on Tele than dynamiting fish in this particular barrel (still hot a @Castle to watch - oh.... that Kate Beckett....) - I'm off Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 Jan 16 - 02:53 PM It used not to be 'within the rules of the forum', and I have several times expressed here the opinion, which I maintain, that it was a retrogressive step to permit anonymity. All sorts of complications flow from such usages: some purely administrative, such as never being sure if one is replying to the same correspondent as last time or to some interloper; others tending to a variety of emotional inhibiting factors. I fail to see why anyone with the courage of his convictions should need to resort to such evasions: even if it might mean, ah diddums & deary·weary·me, that somebody might call him by a bit of a naughty name! As you persist in remaining The Man With No Name, [perhaps Clint Eastwood or some such will be playing you in the film?], I am unable to identify what might have been the subject of these PM exchanges which you recollect between us, so must remain frustratingly inhibited from commenting further. Adieu, & I do sincerely hope it keeps fine for you. ≈Michael Grosvenor Myer≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 16 - 03:10 PM that somebody might call him by a bit of a naughty name! That's not the point however. In case you haven't noticed, when a thread degenerates into a litany of back and forth childish name calling it quickly gets closed down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 28 Jan 16 - 03:23 PM As maybe. But I don't see why you should have the last word. Whoever you may be, you are not my Mother-in-Law. ≈M≈ Though as a point of purely personal information, I have got on well with both my mothers-in-law & greatly regretted both their deaths. I use the designation here purely allusively & emblematically, in the old conventional stand-up·comic sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Jan 16 - 03:38 PM Well I've been called vile names by anonymous Guests as it happens, including "Jew hater" by someone I strongly suspect to be you, going from your own Islamophobia and bigotry and thread contexts. Prove that it wasn't. And if you're going to claim that it wasn't you, tell us why you didn't immediately protest when you saw it, as you're so against name-calling. Unless you didn't see it, of course. Ha bloody ha. Here's a name for you. You're a self-important coward. Tell us: when you decide to post again under your logged-in name, are you also going to be dishonest enough to continue with these Guest posts as well "whenever you feel threatened"? You're a bloody laugh a minute, mate. You've achieved the very opposite of what you disingenuously claim to be your goal. You've made it all about you. Congratulations. Mods: no posting unless logged in. Everyone with a unique moniker. Just an original suggestion. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Musket Date: 28 Jan 16 - 03:41 PM Problem is Lilo, I probably know too much about it. You claim, conveniently, to have lived in Israel. Either you are "romancing" as we used to call fantasy merchants when I was a kid, have signed up to the fascist dream or you walk round with your shutters over your eyes. I reckon the former, and my experience includes what civilised people call Palestine too. Business is business. I'll tell you what though. The combination of aggression and terrorism combined with screaming that retaliation is aggression, and only those bankrolled by idealists in New York needing to listen in order to attempt to shame the world into looking the other way whilst Israeli militants try repeating what was done to European Jews but on Arabs, it's sickening. I'm with The UN on this one, not ignorant fools. It's not a problem reading nonsense from the likes of Keith or Terribulus, who, lets face it, pore over Internet quotes that coincide with their xenophobic armchairs but by claiming knowledge, you, Lilo, are a fucking disgrace. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 16 - 03:41 PM And one last point. Another reason for posting simply as Guest is to help keep respondents focused on the content of the post rather than being distracted by the identity of the poster as they are wont to do, to wit anytime Bearded Bruce posts, actually even when he doesn't post. That's all for now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 28 Jan 16 - 03:43 PM "Says who, and why? Is there any confusion over who is being referred to?" I know I am perhaps not the best person to bring this up given my recent record but, Mr Hertford of Acheson Keith, the man's name is probably important to him. As a senior political figure common courtesy would normally allow him his given name to most discerning people. (present company accepted) Unlike you professor he does have considerable kudos. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 28 Jan 16 - 04:14 PM Musket, I would never accuse you of knowing too much about anything. Your posts lead me to believe the opposite. I repeat, stick to what you know, you will not look so foolish. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 16 - 04:58 PM A thoughtful and thought provoking piece from Fred Maroun in The Times of Israel: Israel may not survive |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Jan 16 - 05:16 PM "And one last point. Another reason for posting simply as Guest is to help keep respondents focused on the content of the post rather than being distracted by the identity of the poster" Oh yeah? Well it doesn't work, does it? Apart from anything else, the contents of all your posts are uninformed, bigoted and usually downright racist. Which is precisely why you don't want us to "focus on you." Oh, did I say "dishonest and disingenuous" too? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 16 - 05:27 PM Hey Shaw, have you checked under you bed, behind your couch and in your cupboards, there might be Islamophobes hiding there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 28 Jan 16 - 06:10 PM Have ya checked in yer head, Fred? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Jan 16 - 06:12 PM Well there's clearly plenty of room inside it, Greg. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 16 - 06:41 PM Songs in praise of stabbing are huge hits on Palestinian street, and may be motivators too. 'Lovers of Stabbing,' most popular of stream of gruesome anthems, has over 5 million views on YouTube; manager of band asserts it directly inspired recent attack. The Times of Israel Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Jan 16 - 10:00 PM Hmm. I suppose that military marching band tunes inspire mass warfare waged by powerful mega-nations too, who don't exactly go to battle with knives borrowed out of the kitchen. You really are a dismal clown, aren't you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 28 Jan 16 - 10:26 PM Have you checked your garden shed Shaw? There might be Islamophobes in there you know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Jan 16 - 02:09 AM Jim, yet your entire defence for 2014 is based on just that. No. I just put Israel's case that it acted within International Law, against war criminal terrorists flouting it and placing their own civilians in harms way to protect their fighters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Musket Date: 29 Jan 16 - 03:12 AM I'll tell you what Lilo. Reading some of your posts may not result in knowing more but they certainly help understand more. Yeah, I'll critique UN and if I am comfortable with their stance, I'll say so. Partisan support for aggression I'll leave to armchair fantasists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 29 Jan 16 - 03:41 AM " I suppose that military marching band tunes inspire mass warfare waged by powerful mega-nations" Well quite a number of contributors to this forum certainly think so going by what they submitted to the Jingoism or Commemoration thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jan 16 - 03:55 AM "I just put Israel's case that it acted within International Law, a" You have had the facts Keith Israel has only acted within "International law" because it has never had to confront "Interntional Law - it has been protected by American Veto which has prevented it from coming to trial. Israel's position as far as "International Law is concerned is exactly the same as that of Assad's Syria which is protected by Russian and Chinese veto - both Israel and Syria are terrorist states and both are untried - if "Israel didn't do it" as you claim, then neither did Assad (I wait with interest to see if support of Syrian terrorism will be your next big attention seeker). We mortals have only the facts to go on. You have the detailed evidence of Israel's acts of terror - not opinions - on the spot, eye witness accounts from medical staff, from human rights representatives (a real eye-opener - your not admitting to supporting human rights), from Jewish historians documenting Isreal's history, From David Ben Gurion....... every single thing I have put up I have linked to evidence - you have put up none yourself and responded to nothing. Your pathetic argument that the Israeli regime must be innocent because Western politicians have continued to have friendly relations with her on their crimes exceeds every idiotic excuse you have ever put up - and that's saying something On that basis, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Russia, China, Syria.... and all the despotic terrorist states the West "has friendly relations with are all as innocent as babes in arms. Give us a break - that's as feeble-minded as it comes. The west's silence is based entirely on the fact that Israel's supporters are politically and economically influential - a force to be reckoned with for Western politicians and economists. Their position in the world today is little different than that of the gun lobby in the U.S. - too powerful to go against - innocent children continue to be massacred in American schoolyards; Palestinians continue to suffer and die in The Middle East. You said you don't claim "Israel is innocent", that I "made it up". You lied and confirmed your lying by continuing to say "Israel is innocent" Now - give us your evidence that "Israel is innocent" - confront the evidence - your efforts haven't been exactly auspicious so far. "Songs in praise of stabbing are huge hits on Palestinian street," Israelis watch Gazan bombardment from front-row seats Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jan 16 - 04:00 AM Correction a real eye-opener - your ADMITTING not supporting human rights Nice opportunity to repeat this revealing fact Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 16 - 05:35 AM Well I suppose that military marching bands in all their warring finery are more respectable than summat on YouTube then, Teribus. A bit like white phosphorus, remote control rifles and cluster bombs being more respectable than kitchen knives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Jan 16 - 05:56 AM Israel has only acted within "International law" because it has never had to confront "Interntional Law Not true. International Law applies to Gaza 2014. It is acceptable to counter an aggressor who attacks civilians indiscriminately, breaking International Law. If that aggressor further breaks International Law by operating from civilian areas, it is still acceptable to counter them if certain provisions are adhered to. Israel did. Your pathetic argument that the Israeli regime must be innocent because Western politicians have continued to have friendly relations with her Democratic governments are not uncritical of Israel. Israel's settlement policy has come in for strong criticism, but there is just no evidence of any massacres or atrocities. Just accusations from Israel's enemies, and propaganda. We have to hold our noses and deal with some unsavoury regimes because of their strategic assets such as oil. Israel has only orange juice. No-one has to be their friend, but decent democracies like to encourage others, especially in a region otherwise devoid of them. The west's silence is based entirely on the fact that Israel's supporters are politically and economically influential Who?? Israel's enemies have a lot of clout too! The whole Arab world. The whole Muslim world. Every corrupt regime that fears democracy. You said you don't claim "Israel is innocent" You dishonestly put it in quotes claiming I had actually said it. I never have or would. You lied, not me. No country is wholly innocent. All I have done is to put their side, just as you put the opposite side. How could any fair minded person object to both sides of an argument being put? What is your objection Jim? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Jan 16 - 06:27 AM your ADMITTING not supporting human rights Another lie about me. Of course I support human rights. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:08 AM Ehmmm NO Steve I do not think that I or any other sensible person has ever for one second supposed "that military marching band tunes inspire mass warfare waged by powerful mega-nations". But daft "rebel" songs inciting and glorifying violence do their bit as propaganda to those who are idiotic and simple enough to pay them any heed. Still I suppose it illustrates the "power" of those who wish to encourage and hold up as "heroes" those who go out and stab unarmed civilians - gosh how brave of them. And then we get complete and utter prats like Jim and the rest of the gang of "usual suspects" crying foul when these murders are themselves killed - totally misguided or what? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Dave Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:13 AM Teribus, a bit like songs about crushing rebellious Scots you mean? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:16 AM Do Rule Britannia, Jerusalem, Land of My fathers, Flower of Scotland, Land of Hope and Glory qualify as "daft rebel songs" because they do incite and glorify violence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:21 AM How do those songs incite and glorify violence? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:26 AM You're clutching at straws, Teribus. Marching bands, rebel songs and whatever that YouTube video is are all out to try to inspire those who think God's on their side. No-one's better or worse than anyone else in that particular regard. As for who kills who, with what and why, well I'll let you lot carry on with that if you don't mind. There is life beyond this website to live. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:38 AM I wouldn't expect you to understand professor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:41 AM You mean you have no answer Rag! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Dave Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:47 AM Jerusalem is just bizarre, part inspired by an unevidenced legend about Joseph of Arimathea bringing the infant Christ to Glastonbury, and part by imagery out of Ezekiel. The first verse poses for questions, the answer to each is a resounding "NO". Not Blake's finest hour, but if its supposed to inspire violence it would be pretty bad at it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:47 AM No I mean exactly what I wrote, I wouldn't expect you to understand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:04 AM "Not true. International Law applies to Gaza 2014.2 And has been found possibly liable to investigation by the International Criminal Court - enquiries into whether they have a case to answer are now taking place. Israel is so confient of its position it has demanded the closure of the International Criminal Court. "Democratic governments are not uncritical of Israel." No democratic government has absolved Israel from war crimes and atrocities - they have remain silent Only America has gone further and used a veto - many, many times, to protect Israel - Obama has threatened to withdraw that veto, despite powerful pro-Israeli lobbying "Every corrupt regime that fears democracy." Mostly "supported" by friendly trade and political relations with the "democratic" west. "Israel has only orange juice." Are you joking? Israel has a rapidly expanding arms industry - it tried to sell parts for nuclear weapons to Apatheid South Africa deacades ago, it has an increasingly expanding 'Drone' industry It has been extimated that Israel is the 7th largest exporter of arms in the world today - all the ethical peace-loving products you could wish for - to anywhere. As for natural gas. "In January 17, 2009, a team led by the Texas firm, Noble Energy Inc., discovered methane in a field (Tamar) now estimated to contain 275 billion cubic meters (9.7 trillion cubic feet) of natural gas—about half of what Europe consumes annually. A year later, the same team announced the discovery of monster gas field to the west of Tamar (Leviathan), which alone contains about as much gas as Europe consumes annually. There have been several other finds of smaller, but nevertheless substantial fields. In neighboring Cyprus, another field (Aphrodite) comparable to Tamar was discovered by Noble Energy, abutting and even slightly spilling into Israel's waters. In short, Israel and its neighbor now sit atop roughly two years' worth of European consumption." Oranges my arse - pehaps you should eat more of them - they are said to be good for your health (don't know about mental health though)!! "You dishonestly put it in quotes claiming I had actually said it." I have said since that it makes no difference what you claim amounts to exactly the same thing only more crudely put "True - what you actually said is "It is all tosh Jim." "How could any fair minded person object to both sides of an argument being put?" You are not putting arguments Keith - simply denying Israel's guilt is not an argument - it's a denial. I've been asking you to put up an argument since the very beginning; instead you have simply resorted to "It is all tosh" level denials. You made some effort at point 5 of my last lot of evidence, fell at the first fence and now have resorted to "Israel is innocent" again (no apologies for inverted commas - that is exactly what you are saying. "But daft "rebel" songs inciting and glorifying violence" see link to "Israelis watch Gazan bombardment from front-row seats" All examples of the entertainment value of violence, me little cabin-boy Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:21 AM Jim, it (Israel) has demanded the closure of the International Criminal Court. You have made this claim a number of times now. You have yet to substantiate it. Please do so now. No democratic government has absolved Israel from war crimes and atrocities - they have remain silent Yes, because Israel has committed none! On real issues, like settlements, they can be very critical but no serious person believes all that shit about massacres and atrocities. You are too gullible Jim! Israel has a rapidly expanding arms industry That makes it a rival of most democracies, not a reason for friendship. No-one has to be their friend, but decent democracies like to encourage others, especially in a region otherwise devoid of them. You are not putting arguments Keith - simply denying Israel's guilt is not an argument - it's a denial. That is not what I do. All I have done is to put their side, just as you put the opposite side. How could any fair minded person object to both sides of an argument being put? What is your objection Jim? I chose to respond to your point 5. I put Israel's case that it abided by International Law, and the civilian deaths were due to Hamas' flouting of the law. You have failed to challenge a word of it. Would you like to choose the next one? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:33 AM GUEST,Raggytash - 29 Jan 16 - 07:38 AM "I wouldn't expect you to understand professor." Just as nobody now on this forum ever expects any sort of explanation or substantiation for the idiotic drivel you come out with Raggy such as your post of 29 Jan 16 - 07:16 AM. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:34 AM JERUSALEM — There have been fights over books, music, plays, funding for the arts and academic awards. This being Israel, they have been underpinned by fierce rhetorical exchanges about democracy, fascism and zealotry, identity, the future of the state and the fate of Jews. The latest was an attack on Wednesday by a far-right group on beloved leftist literary icons including Amos Oz, A. B. Yehoshua and David Grossman, writers who have been considered the voice — and conscience — of the state for years. The group, Im Tirtzu, began a poster campaign calling the writers "moles in culture," which prompted accusations of McCarthyism. Ms. Regev the divisive and conservative minister of culture and sport,said that the aim of the "Loyalty in Culture" initiative, proposed as an amendment to a must-pass budget bill, is "for the first time to make support for a cultural institution dependent on its loyalty to the state of Israel." "The search, identification and marking of alleged traitors is an old fascist characteristic, an ugly and dangerous one," said an appalled Benny Begin, a member of Parliament and a former minister from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party. This month, the left-leaning daily Haaretz highlighted internal discussions in the ministry about what artistic works might be considered "politically undesirable" for high-school students. Among the criteria, the newspaper said, were whether artists would perform in West Bank settlements and declare loyalty to the state and to the national anthem, something that is particularly problematic for Israel's Arab citizens. Internal discussions are not policy, but even this report drew stinging responses, with Oded Kotler, a prominent Israeli actor and director, comparing Israel to the Soviet Union and telling Israel Radio, "There's a real culture war underway here, but the war from that side of the political map is a harbinger of zealotry, darkness and coercion." http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/30/world/middleeast/israel-mired-in-ideological-battles-fights-on-cultural-fronts.html? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:50 AM Well, Teribus, I suppose Jerusalem has something of the allegory about its bow, arrows and chariot of fire, but the others aren't exactly pacifist songs, are they? Even a little bit imperialistic in places? Raggytash could have included Hearts Of Oak as well, I suppose. Just because these songs are now regarded as part of our tradition and a little "establishment" (last night of the Proms, anyone?) doesn't take away from their original intent, which was to inspire people to be, er, non-pacifist... I'm not judging that but I am saying that you're wrong to assume that "our" militaristic songs are fine whereas those of The Other are not. It's the way of the world to have tunes to rouse you to the cause. The whole world, including us. You don't have to like it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jan 16 - 09:48 AM "You have yet to substantiate it." Done so a long time ago - 'ere we go again. "The Palestinian Authority becomes the 123rd member of the International Criminal Court on Wednesday, a major step that could move its decades-long conflict with Israel into a courtroom. Israel is opposed to the court, is not a member and has no plans to cooperate with investigators already looking into possible crimes by both sides during fighting. It was furious when the Palestinians announced their application on Dec. 31 and tried to undermine it by lobbying to cut funding to the court." Reuters "Yes, because Israel has committed none!" Been there - done that Keith - yes they have, and are continuing to do so. War crimes and atrocities are not a consideration in international politics and never have been. The U.S. has committed war crimes itself and has assisted terrorist leaders in countries such as Chile to overthrow democratically elected governments - 'Democratic' Mrs T fought like a tigress to keep mass torturer and murderer, Augusto Pinochet from standing trial for his torturing and murder, called British politicians who wanted to put him on trial as "running a police state" and described him as 'her kind of democrat' The Western world has largely followed suit in turning their backs on War Crimes and acts of terrorism by its friendly allies - Syria being a cse in point (ten years of torture, murder and human rights abuses before it even got a mention), let alone, stop selling riot contol gear, miliraty equipment and chemicals capable of being turned into weapons. It eventually "That makes it a rival of most democracies, not a reason for friendship." You calied it only had oranges - don't be silly "That is not what I do." Then where are your arguments - other than "Israel is innocent O.K.?" "I chose to respond to your point 5." You were shot down in flames - Israel's friends have helped her never to have faced international law, far from "failing to challenge a word of it", you had the legs cut from under you and are still ignoring the rest of the points - which was the purpose of your one-by-one demands in the first place - delaying tactics. Go away Keith before you disgrace yourself even further Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Jan 16 - 10:11 AM it (Israel) has demanded the closure of the International Criminal Court. So this is another made up fact Jim! You claim it but can not substantiate because it is not true. Been there - done that Keith - yes they have, and are continuing to do so. Israel denies any and no decent democracy holds the guilty of any such. Just accusations and propaganda Jim. You are so gullible! Then where are your arguments - other than "Israel is innocent O.K.?" No arguments at all. I just put their side, as you put the opposite side. How could any fair minded person object to both sides of an argument being put? What is your objection Jim? "I chose to respond to your point 5." You were shot down in flames - No! You did not challenge a single word. Here it is again, Israel was subjected to indiscriminate attacks on its civilians from terrorists hiding among civilians. It was a victim of war crimes. It had a right and duty to respond, and tried to do so without breaking international law. The civilian deaths were the result of Hamas' war crimes not Israel's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:00 AM Israel is opposed to the court, is not a member and has no plans to cooperate with investigators already looking into possible crimes by both sides during fighting. It was furious when the Palestinians announced their application on Dec. 31 and tried to undermine it by lobbying to cut funding to the court. The demands for closure were made when Palestine was accepted as a member. It is opposed to the court's existence and has attempted to cut its funding. As a non-member it has now power to openly demand the closure of the court but it has attempted to gets its friends to neutralise its work bu cutting its funding "Now, however, in response to the ICC's launch of a preliminary investigation into alleged crimes in Palestinian territory, Israeli government officials have chosen to challenge the very existence of the court. Is Israel's campaign to delegitimate the ICC likely to advance its interests? Based on comparable campaigns by aggrieved states, the answer is almost certainly no." Israel attempts to challenge existence if ICC Don't you dare call me a liar - your whole case is based on lies. "You are so gullible!" You have had the evidence and produced none yourself " Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 29 Jan 16 - 10:11 AM it (Israel) has demanded the closure of the International Criminal Court. So this is another made up fact Jim! You claim it but can not substantiate because it is not true. Been there - done that Keith - yes they have, and are continuing to do so. Israel denies any and no decent democracy holds the guilty of any such. Just accusations and propaganda Jim. You are so gullible! Then where are your arguments - other than "Israel is innocent O.K.?" No arguments at all. I just put their side, as you put the opposite side. How could any fair minded person object to both sides of an argument being put? What is your objection Jim? "I chose to respond to your point 5." You were shot down in flames - No! You did not challenge a single word." Ok Jim. 5 In 2015, Israel invaded Gaza, leaving 2,104 Palestinian dead, including 1,462 civilians - 344 children. Israel was subjected to indiscriminate attacks on its civilians from terrorists hiding among civilians. It was a victim of war crimes. It had a right and duty to respond, and tried to do so without breaking international law. The civilian deaths were the result of Hamas' war crimes not Israel's. No decent democratic government believes Israel guilty of any massacre or atrocity. They know it is all propaganda, but deluded hate filled people like you suck it all up without a question. Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll - PM Date: 28 Jan 16 - 07:16 AM No excuse of the atrocities done during the invasion the destructuion of occupied hospitals, he unprecedented killing of so many children (according to Ban Ki-Moon) or women and old people. "No decent democratic government believes Israel guilty of any massacre or atrocity." Every single human rights group has accused it of these - not interested what self-interested politicians think. Not done too well so far - no evidence, just denials "Israel didn't do it" Now how about that rest of number 5? Jim Carroll WILL YOU STOP LYING Now will you piss off - out of shame, if nothing ales Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:06 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:06 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:11 AM Brucie seems to be blowing for tugs - maybe Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:16 AM I just asked you to substantiate the claim Jim. I only accuse you of lying when it is unequivocal. It appears that the Foreign Minister, Lieberman, threatened to "dismantle" ICC. I am not clear what power he or the Israeli government has to do such a thing. He said this over a year ago and nothing has been heard about it since. Just a bit of bluster I think. Which of your many points would you like me to address next Jim, if you are not going to challenge the demolition of your point 5? I hope you see now why it is not practical to address them all at once. One at a time please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:33 AM "I just asked you to substantiate the claim Jim." "So this is another made up fact Jim! - You claim it but can not substantiate because it is not true." Looks like being accused of lying to ma - perhaps I'm getting over-senssitive in my old age Will you stop lying - it seems to be congenital with you "Just a bit of bluster I think." Just a bit of avoiding being brought to International Criminal Court for war crimes, I think "Which of your many points would you like me to address next Jim," Piss off Keith - you haven't addressed any yet and you don't intend to Just admit you don't and go away - or better still, just go away Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Teribus Date: 29 Jan 16 - 01:57 PM Tell us all Jom the countries that do not recognise the power or jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court the two at the top of the list are USSR/Russia and the USA - take it from there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Jan 16 - 02:42 PM "Tell us all Jom the countries that do not recognise the power or jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court the two at the top of the list are USSR/Russia and the USA -" The have both committed atrocities - what's your point? Are you suggesting that either of them are democracies in the proper sense - nah - even you Not sure where USSR comes into it anyway - Russia is one of the white hats since it was freed from communism Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Musket Date: 29 Jan 16 - 03:36 PM Keith. Are you sure? Double doggy dare sure that Israel has committed no atrocities? Really? Not even the ones where you stated that the schools and hospitals their terrorist militants blew up were "legitimate targets?" Are you sure that you, Terribulus and that anonymous twat are right and The UN, British Government, EU etc are wrong? Really? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 29 Jan 16 - 03:42 PM "The verdict on the Court [ICC] is mixed. It has gone some way to ending impunity and it is certainly an improvement on the ad hoc tribunals. However it is inevitably a political body rather than a purely legal institution" Kirsten Ainley London School of Economics Published in Cambridge Review of International Affairs, 2011, 24 (3). pp. 309-333 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:08 AM Keith. Are you sure? Double doggy dare sure that Israel has committed no atrocities? No. I am also not double doggy dare sure that France has committed no atrocities? I am sure that no unequivocal evidence exists for either, and I am sure that it is reasonable to put both sides of the story. Re ICC, Lieberman made his strange statement last January. In December it emerged that Israel has been co-operating with ICC since July, so it was just a bit of nonsense. Also in December the interim report has not confirmed a single war crime, so how can you all be double doggy dare sure that Israel has committed atrocities? It is fortunate that some of us are fair and open minded enough to consider both sides of the argument. Someone who is so prejudiced as to assume guilt in the absence of any evidence might reasonably be called a bigot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:57 AM "I am sure that no unequivocal evidence exists for either, " You have been given it - you refuse to even answer it - it exists and Israel has tried to ascertain that they don't stand trial for it. You have even denied (without evidence) the most accepted (by Isreal) Jewish historian of the Israeli State, Benny Morris, just as you tried to first deny, then re-write, then both at the same time, the admission of David Ben Gurion. Your defence of Israel, in attacking the founders of Israel, has now become Antisemitic You have no interest in the welfare of the Jewish People - your aim is to defend the extreme right-wing politics of the regime that has systematically turned Israel into an oppressive, aggressive and extremely dangerous terrorist state. Redeem your behaviour and address the evidence you have been given, which you could have worked out for yourself - it has always been there Then you can go back to defending asylum seekers being forced to wear degrading and dangerous identification tags. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:08 AM Disagreeing with Jim get you accused of antisemitism, islamophobia, , being a fucking disgrace, living in a fantasy and so on . the usual tactics employed when their arguments get more and more absurd . It never ceases to amaze me how Jims irrational hatered can be defended. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:36 AM But Jim puts detailed arguments. His posts far exceed in content and links anything by you or Keith. Whether you agree with what he says or not (I do, nearly all the time), that is incontrovertible. Instead of sniping at a chap with whom you just happen to disagree why not try to strike a balance here and look also at the posts of one of your allies, Teribus. All sweetness and light there, eh? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:37 AM he most accepted (by Isreal) Jewish historian of the Israeli State, Benny Morris, There is no consensus among historians of Israel as there is about aspects of WW1. There are as many views as there are historians. You accept without question everything ever said against israel and refuse to accept that there is any other narrative. There is. You have been given it (unequivocal evidence of atrocities by Israel.) No we have not, because there is none. the admission of David Ben Gurion. Those quotes were fake, and you knew they were when you gave them. You have no interest in the welfare of the Jewish People - your aim is to defend the extreme right-wing politics of the regime that has systematically turned Israel into an oppressive, aggressive and extremely dangerous terrorist state. No, I just put their side of the story. How could any fair minded person object to both sides of an argument being put? What is your objection Jim? Redeem your behaviour and address the evidence you have been given, None actually! It never ceases to amaze me how Jims irrational hatred can be defended. Very few do. Four names? All sharing his extreme politics and feeling they have to support him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:53 AM " No, I just put their side of the story" Is that the side of the "the extreme right-wing politics of the regime that has systematically turned Israel into an oppressive, aggressive and extremely dangerous terrorist state" Thought it might be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:44 AM "There is no consensus among historians of Israel as there is about aspects of WW1." Christ only knows where WW1 comes into this - still smarting from the kicking you got on the subject, no doubt Who disputes Benny Morris and on what grounds - didn't he sell his books in "Real bookshops" - can't be that he's dead. The only criticism of Benny Morris I can find is that he tends to draw his information only from Israeli sources. The massacres he lists, which you claim don't exist "what massacres?" - or "no massacres" - are recorded events of history - they were petitioned against by Einstein, and have never been denied - until now, by you. "No we have not, because there is none." Just answerd that one - the rest have never been tried because any pfficial eaxamination of them has been blocked by U.S. vetoes. "Those quotes were fake, and you knew they were when you gave them." Now we're back to "fake" after theme being "he didn't mean that" - you cant't even stick to your own story Who says they are "fake" other than you? People have tried to re-interpret them, as you have , but nobody has denied they were ever made - other than you. Is this the line you are going with now or can we expect something else in the future? "No, I just put their side of the story." You are not giving the Israeli's "side of the story" - only that of the Israeli regime. Report of massacres, of atrocities and persecution, and attemprs to set up an apartheid state, from Haraatz, from Jews for Justice, from Rabbis for Justice, from jews both inside and outside Israel - your line is only peddled from the extreme right-wing politicians who refuse to be tried for their crimes - that's waht I said - you have rejected what all Jew who don't suppore the regime have to say. Criticism of the Isreali by Jews has covered: Antisemitism, persecution of Palestinians, same of the Bedouins, the Blockade, massacres, using chemicals against both Palestinians and Bedouins, bringing the reputation of the Jewish people into disrepute, using "antisemitism" as a defence and by doing so, putting the wellbeing of Jews throughout the world at risk, creating an Apartheid state, encouraging Apartheid South Africa to obtain nuclear weapons.... and much much more Even Holocaust survivors condemned Israel for the Gaza the massacres you claim have never taken place. Holocaust survivors condemn massacres By brushing aside all these criticisms, you have adopted teh attitude that every Jew who criticisms the Israeli regime is not to be believed or regarded - that reeks of Antisemitism (and something just as sinister) in my book. You have linked nothing, you have produced no evidence for anything - do so now, or climb down "Disagreeing with Jim get you accused of antisemitism, " Read what I put up Lilo and answer - that'll prove me wrong You drift in and out of these discussions on tee tide like your air-filled namesake. How about the information on Vanunu - that'd be a good start. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:49 AM "the extreme right-wing politics of the regime that has systematically turned Israel into an oppressive, aggressive and extremely dangerous terrorist state" Sez you and your nut buddies not non bigoted people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:56 AM Jim puts up over the top rants. His arguments, if one can call those rants rants arguments , consist of venomous bile and hatred. you may call it balanced debate, I would call it by another name. I am not blindly pro Israel. I am aware of the situation in that country and like many others, I am also aware of what needs to change, not just in Israel, but in the Middle East. To disagree with Jims views does not equate to being an islamophobe or to being a fucking disgrace. It just means that I take exception to his relentless nonsense, and his accusations of antisemitism against those who dare to disagree with him. I think Keith and Teribus are wasting their time putting facts here, Jim is not interested in facts. He cannot see beyond his hatred. To oppose his views is not bigotry, it is essential or no reasoned debate will ever occur. It would be grand if this subject could be discussed without the usual name calling and drivel. That will not happen as long as There is support for this over the top Fanatasism continues. I firmly believe that the Palestinian people deserve better both from Israel, and from their own leaders. people who share Jims views will sully that discussion at every turn. if you wish to support his views Steve. That is your affair, but I cannot support that kind of anti Israel obsession, on any grounds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:00 AM Guest, please read the link on Jim's last post. It's not just a small group of people on here who condemn Israeli state action. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:20 AM Is that the side of the "the extreme right-wing politics of the regime that has systematically turned Israel into an oppressive, aggressive and extremely dangerous terrorist state" No. I have put Israel's case as all you comrades have put the opposite case. No fair minded person could object to both sides being heard. Who says they are "fake" other than you? Example, "We must expel Arabs and take their places." -- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985." What he really said, "We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs." Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai, Ben Gurion: The Burning Ground; and Karsh, Efraim (2000), Fabricating Israeli History: The 'New Historians'; this has been extensively misquoted as "[We] must expel Arabs and take their places" after appearing in this form in Morris, Benny (1987), The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947–1949, Cambridge University Press, p. 25. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:27 AM "Guest, please read the link on Jim's last post. It's not just a small group of people on here who condemn Israeli state action." First off, I don't stoop to reading his bile. Secondly, one can find anything on the internet to support whatever take you have on an issue. I can post plenty of links that show that his views, and those of his supporters, are shared by neo Nazis and white supremacists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:54 AM "Jim puts up over the top rants. " Stop waffling and answer the points If tey are what you claim they are, they are easily exposisable as such by facts You have put up none - just in and out, in and out - just like the tide. Show where they are wrong At least you might have the courtesy to show where the Holocaust survivors are wrong and not "ranters" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:57 AM "First off, I don't stoop to reading his bile." That says what needs to be said - 300+ Holocaust survivers Condem Israel's behavior as "massacres" = bile As I said - Antisemitism Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 30 Jan 16 - 09:07 AM You just don,t get it, do you Jim ? You have made yet another accusation of antisemetism where none exists! I disagree with the holocaust survivors I have not accused them of ranting. as long as people like you rant and make baseless accusations of antisemitism, there will never be any civil discussion on this issue. people holding your views are a huge part of the problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 16 - 09:28 AM "You just don,t get it, do you Jim ? You have made yet another accusation of antisemetism where none exists! " You don't get it - unless you can substantiate your claims rather than nipping in and then pissing off when the goin gets tough, you will continue to be regarded as the troll you are. Answer the points you disagree with - what are you, a man or an airbed?. "I have put Israel's case as all you comrades have put the opposite case." "We didn't do it" isn't a case - it's a denial If you are saying that is the sum total of Israel's "case" - fair enough - it's all you have offered. "What he really said," What he also said was: "I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out." Contradiction or confession or what - nobody but you has ever suggested it was a fake. If they have - who has? "First off, I don't stoop to reading his bile." This is the "bile" you refuse to read from Israeli newspaper Haaretz: Jim Carroll Holocaust Survivors Condemn Israel for 'Gaza Massacre,' Call for Boycott In response to Elie Wiesel advertisement comparing Hamas to Nazis, 327 Jewish Holocaust survivors and descendants publish New York Times ad accusing Israel of 'ongoing massacre of the Palestinian people.' Haaretz Aug 23, 2014 5:24 PM Hundreds of Holocaust survivors and descendants of survivors have signed a letter, published as an advertisement in Saturday's New York Times, condemning "the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza" and calling for a complete boycott of Israel. According to the letter, the condemnation was prompted by an advertisement written by Elie Wiesel and published in major news outlets worldwide, accusing Hamas of "child sacrifice" and comparing the group to the Nazis. The letter, signed by 327 Jewish Holocaust survivors and descendants of survivors and sponsored by the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, accuses Wiesel of "abuse of history" in order to justify Israel's actions in the Gaza Strip: "…we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water." The letter also blames the United States of aiding Israel in its Gaza operation, and the West in general of protecting Israel from condemnation. "Genocide begins with the silence of the world," the letter reads. The letter ends with a call to bring the blockade of Gaza to an immediate end, and for a full boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!," the letter concludes. Full text of letter: "Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of Nazi genocide unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza "As Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of the Nazi genocide we unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine. We further condemn the United States for providing Israel with the funding to carry out the attack, and Western states more generally for using their diplomatic muscle to protect Israel from condemnation. Genocide begins with the silence of the world. "We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia. "Furthermore, we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water. "We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people. We call for an immediate end to the siege against and blockade of Gaza. We call for the full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!" read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.612072 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 16 - 09:33 AM You just don,t get it, do you Jim ? Oh he get's it alright, the only thing he doesn't get is that some of us aren't fooled by where he's coming from. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 30 Jan 16 - 09:42 AM Here we go with the troll accusation.. Another ridiculous claim! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 30 Jan 16 - 09:50 AM I can post plenty of links that show that his views, and those of his supporters, are shared by neo Nazis and white supremacists. Uh hunh. Guess you've never been schooled in logical fallicies, eh Bearded Fred? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:11 AM The only logical fallacy here is your post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:11 AM Ah, just look at the quality of the last three Guest posts. The Guest who claims that he remains anonymous because he'd rather like us to focus more on the content of his posts rather than the poster. Go on, read them. He's a good laugh, isn't he? HiLo, you have attacked name-calling yet again, yet defended Teribus as the supplier of facts while remaining silent on my challenge to you about his name-calling. By any measure, he is one of the worst and most persistent offenders here. Is name-calling by people you agree with acceptable name-calling, then? If I were you, I'd spend a bit more time reviewing my posts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:13 AM That would be his last four posts now. Dammit, I've lost count. Don't you just hang on every word of his "content?" :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:25 AM I have merely pointed out that there are people posting here who supply facts, facts which Jim ignores. If you wish to"defend" Jims hateful rants, that is, as I said, Your business. As for "striking a balance here", how, tell me, do you strike a balance with Jim Carroll ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:31 AM Guest, how can you condemn someone if you are not prepared to at least read what they post. Jim provided a link LINK that was pertinent to the thread. These are not Jim's words they are the words of 327 survivors (or descendants of) of the holocaust created by Nazi Germany, are you to condemn them too? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:38 AM "I have merely pointed out that there are people posting here who supply facts, facts which Jim ignores" What facts? "Another ridiculous claim!" Are you suggesting that the Holcaust Survivors statement was a fake? Please break the habit of a lifetime and reply Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:44 AM Have I suggested anywhere that the holocaust survivor comments were fake ? No, I have not. Another bit of your nonsense. Reply, What am I to reply to Jim..you cannot describe red to the colour blind ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:48 AM Have I suggested that my post was directed to you and not Guest? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:48 AM Jim requires no defending by me. If I say I agree with what he says on particular topics, that is not defending. He does not defend me either and I wouldn't expect him to, neither do we exchange messages of support or of anything at all for that matter. The point I made is that he supplies abundant information and links, which you are at liberty to counter if you wish. Your colleagues Teribus, Keith and akenaton, not to speak of our anonymous Guest (who once called me a Jew-hater) are far less productive of facts on this topic than Jim and they all name-call. I don't think you have any cause to complain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:58 AM I have been called antisemetic, a fucking disgrace, an islamophobe, a fantasist and worse, and you don't think I have cause to complain. None of the people you mention are my colleagues, they just happen to disagree with Jim. As for Akenaton, he has not posted much to this thread, so I don't know why you mention him. Anonymous guests who disagree with Jim are not my allies either. I know Jim requires no defending by you... and of course you agree with him on somethings, that is clear from your posts here Steve. I am simply stating, at the risk of being called a dweller in fantasyland, that the Israel I know bears no resemblance to the Israel Jim describes. Again, if you agree with his views, that is your conclusion based on what evidence he has supplied. I do not agree with him because he is irrational in his obsession, there is a name for that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:58 AM At least one person was wounded in a stabbing attack at the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem on Saturday afternoon. The condition of the victim was not immediately clear. Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 16 - 11:01 AM Ah, just look at the quality of the last three Guest posts. The Guest who claims that he remains anonymous because he'd rather like us to focus more on the content of his posts rather than the poster. Go on, read them. He's a good laugh, isn't he? QED! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 30 Jan 16 - 11:23 AM Proverb for Mudcatters Too many guests spoil the thread |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 16 - 11:42 AM "I have been called antisemetic, a fucking disgrace, " Then respond to what the Holocaust survivors say - respond to the evidence put up over and over again If you do not, you are defending the Israeli regime and not The Jewish people. The Israelis now have a knee-jerk reaction of dismissing every criticism as being "Antisemitic - which is an antisemitic claim by definition. I'm not sure if you are one of those who has made the accusation against me or those who agree with me - but that is Antisemitic - it is Antisemitic by definition to associate The Jewish people as a whole with the actions of the Israeli state - if that is what yopu have done, that is what you are. To take only the word of Isreali right wing politicians and deliberately ignore what Jews who criticise what those politicians do is anti-Semitic - especially when a large number of them are either Holocaust survivors or their relatives. By doing so, you are refusing to accept the lessons of The Holocaust. The first time I heard the term "never again, in relation to what was happening to The Palestinians not to anybody, was from the mother of someone I was once to marry" - she and a few of her family survived the camps and had learned the lesson. You want to sling your accusations about - get used to having them slug back at you - I have. I'll put this up again because it represents everything I have believed about what's happening in Israel today. You want to dispute it, feel free; you want to ignore it - shame on you and everybody like you. It has been a cowardly trait of people like Bearded Bruce to skulkk behind the six million who died in the camps - at least have the common deceny to read and respond to what they say. That goes for every last three/four, however many of you there are. Full text of letter: "Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of Nazi genocide unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza "As Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of the Nazi genocide we unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine. We further condemn the United States for providing Israel with the funding to carry out the attack, and Western states more generally for using their diplomatic muscle to protect Israel from condemnation. Genocide begins with the silence of the world. "We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia. "Furthermore, we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water. "We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people. We call for an immediate end to the siege against and blockade of Gaza. We call for the full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 16 - 11:54 AM When I read the title of the Italian daily La Repubblica, "Gaza, more than 300 Holocaust survivors against Israel", I thought, wow! Sorry, the survivors were not "more than 300, not even "300". There were 20. The others were children or grandchildren or distant relatives of survivors. Yet, the story has swept the media all over the world. Who is behind the campaign which appeared in a full page ad in the New York Times? Do they believe Jews are supposed to continue to be victims? The initiative was sponsored by the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, an organization openly hostile to Israel. Hajo Meyer, the first signatory on the list, is a well-known Dutch militant who just passed away, the author of a book called "The End of Judaism", in which he explains, like a student of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, that Zionism and Judaism are incompatible. Meyer compares Israel to Nazi Germany ("there are many similarities", he wrote). Meyer did not hesitate to appear on Iranian television, Press TV, the voice of the ayatollahs in the world, the same people who condemn Israel to disappear from the map. What's better than the vulgarization of the Holocaust by a grandchld of survivors who directs a center of "Middle East Studies"? The appeal is signed by Hedy Epstein, one of the most famous faces of the Freedom flottillas launched in solidarity with Hamas. She even flew to Cairo last month to participate in the demonstrations against Israel. She has recently embarked on a hunger strike for Gaza. Epstein is part of the Free Gaza Movement, whose founder Greta Berlin said: "The Zionists organized the concentration camps to kill millions of innocent Jews". Meet the "Holocaust Survivors Against Israel" Note the last line in the article. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:03 PM Too many guests spoil the thread I'd say it's those who, instead of making constructive contributions, make comments about other posters. But that's just MHO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:04 PM Well, HiLo, I think I win hands down in any competition with you with regard to having been called names, but I'm not that bothered. I decided a while ago to try to avoid calling people names. Note that you are HiLo and that Mr Woodcock is Teribus and that Keith is Keith and that akenaton is akenaton in my lexicon (I do believe that I called him a twit the other day - cor, strike me down! - and I call the excruciatingly unwelcome Guest a coward. I'll burn in hell, eh?) Even Joe Offer calls me names. What I've found, oddly, is that I have an infinitely greater capacity for annoying people by keeping cool and not calling people names. I can't explain that, but it works for me! Jim name-calling is his business. I'm not my comrade's keeper! (Sorry, Jim!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:08 PM This struck me particularly from above article "right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia" Can anyone provide details of how such insignia appear? Any illustrations? ≈M≈ Oh, but I'm finding all this so profoundly depressing. None of all this is the way we meant it to be all those years ago. We would have laughed to scorn any suggestion that Likud, the unspeakable Begin's party, could ever become the more or less perpetual majority party. I could literally cry. I expect Jim will come up with his 'lip·service' parrot-cry yet again: tho what grounds he has ever imagined he had for such gross impertinence, or what satisfaction it ever brought him, are things I have never contrived to make out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:08 PM I think you need to read Jim's post just after "full text of letter". Oops, sorry, I forgot that you don't read Jim's posts. You seem to have just proved it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:15 PM Well, Michael, I'm a lot more sympathetic to ordinary Israeli people than it may sometimes appear from my posts (though I've never once criticised them). Your sentiments are also mine. There will be a lot we disagree with apropos of what goes on in that benighted part of the world, but you may agree that there will never be peace while the Likud philosophy prevails. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:16 PM Well, Steve, as you say it is not a competition. My objection to the name calling has nothing to do with me being thin skinned, it has to do with the total irrationality of it. Because I disagree with Jim, I am accused of all sorts of evil things. I do not hold you or anyone else responsible for Jims assnine accusations. However, It seems to me that there are those posting here who seem to think that this type of name calling response is an actual form of debate. It does make you half agree with "guest" postings. Why would someone turn themselves into a target for that kind of abuse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:20 PM I did read it, Steve. That is precisely the bit I quoted & queried. No idea what you are on about this time. Sorry. Really no idea quite what you meant:- but why were you being so sarcastically rude? Thought you had just proclaimed that you, like me in general, find it best to eschew such a tone. Regards: ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:24 PM Tho it appears from your crossposted next post, addressed to me, Steve, that it wasn't me whom you were addressing last time after all. Oh dear. Think I'll just come back after Liverpool v W Ham which is about to kick off. Down with Likud! CU·later Mebbe |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:27 PM It doesn't make me agree. The most civil forum I'm on is one on which everyone's real name is in their profile, which all logged-in members can read. You're allowed a pseudonym if you don't want to get googled, but it's surprising how many people don't bother with one. Crucially, and mods are you listening, your moniker is unique, there are no "guests" and you don't get to post unless you're registered and logged in. There is occasional bad temper but the need for moderation is rare. The Guest in this thread posts illiberal, bigoted nonsense BECAUSE he can hide behind his anonymity. You wouldn't imagine a logged-in member to expect to get away with calling someone a Jew-hater, would you? It isn't even possible to distinguish one guest's posting history from another. Ridiculous. His constant "explanation" for his anonymity is just a lie. Don't be fooled. May I just call him another name? He's a charlatan, and I think you know it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:29 PM To confirm, I was addressing the Guest, not Michael. And my last one was to HiLo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:54 PM I do agree about the guests Steve. Unfortunately,guests are not alone in this name calling business! There are several regular posters who excell T it and it seems, in many cases that it is their only form of response, and it. Is ugly name calling, crude and offensive at times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:24 PM Jim, Are you suggesting that the Holcaust Survivors statement was a fake? Of course not, but what is your point? There are many people who strongly support one side or the other, but quoting them is not evidence for one side or the other. They are expressing opinions not evidence. Alvin H. Rosenfeld (professor of English and Jewish Studies and director of Institute for the Study of Contemporary Antisemitism at Indiana University.) says they are a minority. "Most Holocaust survivors, like most Jews, are Zionists and are strongly devoted to the welfare of the State of Israel. The IJSN/IJAN group is exceptional in its fierce opposition to Israel and is hardly representative. That fact, however, did not keep the BBC from quickly publishing a story with the title "Holocaust survivors condemn Israel." The impression conveyed is seriously misleading." He says, "What makes the IJSN statement noteworthy, therefore, is not the litany of emotionally-charged accusations against Israel but the identities of those making these accusations. They present themselves as "Survivors," "Children of survivors," "Grandchildren of survivors," "Great-grandchildren of survivors," and "Other relatives of survivors." They total 327 people." "If we take their self-descriptions at face value, some (a small number) had been in the Nazi ghettos and camps or claim to have been resistance fighters. Others had been children spirited out of Europe on the Kindertransports or were hidden by Christians during the war. Some say they are "cousins of survivors," or "friends of survivors," or "relatives of victims," or "relatives of many victims," or the "spouse of a hidden child," or grandchildren and great-grandchildren of "refugees." One identifies herself as "the great niece of an uncle who shot himself"; another as a "3rd cousin of Ann [sic] Frank and grand-daughter of NON-survivors." http://forward.com/opinion/israel/204790/moral-emptiness-of-holocaust-survivors-who-took-on/ So, their opinions are just opinions, not evidence against Israel, and few of them are really "survivors" at all. http://forward.com/opinion/israel/204790/moral-emptiness-of-holocaust-survivors-who-took-on/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:37 PM So, their opinions are just opinions, not evidence As are your's and Bearded Fred's, Professor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:37 PM Too many guests spoil the thread I'd say it's those who, instead of making constructive contributions, make comments about other posters. But that's just MHO. I might also add that it is those who complain, repetitively, about the forum rules. Again IMHO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:41 PM So the Holocaust Survivors don't deserve an answer ? "says they are a minority. So minorities don't deserve an answer either? " "Most Holocaust survivors, like most Jews, are Zionists and are strongly devoted to the welfare of the State of Israel." Who is ****** suggesting we aren't or the Holocaust survivors aren't? They and we are arguing that the various regimes have thrown away the dream of Israel and turned it into an oppressive state. And all you can produce if pro-Isreali propaganda denigrating those survivors and their relatives Try answering the points they mad - that would be the honest thing to do instead of smearing them as the Israelis have You are every bit as disgusting as they are. Wonder what Mike is making of all this? Whoops - he seems to be supporting it. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:47 PM So, their opinions are just opinions, not evidence As are your's and Bearded Fred's, Professor. Yes. Also yours and Jim's. So the Holocaust Survivors don't deserve an answer ? The answer is that they are entitled to their opinion, which some share and some do not. Either way it is not evidence for or against. What is the point of posting anyone's unsubstantiated claims and accusations? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:48 PM "imagine a logged-in member to expect to get away with calling someone a Jew-hater" Have you spotted any Islamophobes today, Shaw? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:55 PM "The answer is that they are entitled to their opinion" They deserve having their points addressed an do we all. Your response is still "Israel didn't do it" By the way - the Neo Nazi insignia refers to logos on Tee shirts. Similar accusations were made by the Former Mossad lewader who appeared in The Gatekeepers Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:01 PM You'll have to follow this one up I haven't teh time nor the inclination Haaretz Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:04 PM They deserve having their points addressed an do we all. What points? All I see is unsubstantiated claims accusations. None were anywhere near Gaza. Please identify any actual point you would like me to address. Your response is still "Israel didn't do it" My response has been to put Israel's side of the story, that it acted within International Law against war criminal terrorists who flouted it, thereby placing their own civilians in harms way to protect their fighters. No evidence has been put forward by anyone to contradict any of that. Will anyone produce something now? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:09 PM Jim, You'll have to follow this one up I haven't teh time nor the inclination All it says is, Right-wing Demonstrators in Tel Aviv Wore neo-Nazi Shirts Not only did the demonstrators beat leftists, they wore 'Good night left side' T-shirts, photographs show. read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.605234 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:13 PM 'Good night left side' is said to be a neo-nazi slogan. "Insignia" is not an issue, as you just conceded Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:21 PM The photo Haaretz is referring to was supplied by an extremist left wing (the usual Marxist-Leninist bores) Occupy Judaism. There are two unidentified individuals in the photo. They don't show what the caption shows, namely attacks on anyone let alone (extreme) left "activists". They are cleverly cut off, showing only a part of the situation. This is image manipulation, so it casts doubts about the authenticity of the images and the objectives of those who publish them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:47 PM "we are arguing that the various regimes have thrown away the dream of Israel and turned it into an oppressive state." --- Yes, Jim; that is what is so disappointing ..... "Wonder what Mike is making of all this?"--- Well, I've just told you ... .,,.,. "Whoops - he seems to be supporting it."--- Whoops! No he bloody doesn't. How the hell do you possibly make that out, Jim? You make a point of refusing to listen, or of impugning my integrity & sincerity every time I say what I really think; stuffing your fingers in your ears & shrieking 'lipservice' like a bloody parrot; & I am getting fucking pissed off with it - you should be fucking well ashamed (& you know how often I sue that sort of locution)--- but I don't expect you are |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:55 PM Steve -- Thanks for clarifying above that it wasn't me you meant. Sorry for my thus mistakenly truculent response. This is a somewhat heating-up sort of thread, leading to "...in this upshot purposes mistook Fall'n on the inventors' heads" Hamlet, Act V |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 16 - 03:25 PM "The photo Haaretz is referring to was supplied by an extremist left wing (the usual Marxist-Leninist bores) " Is there no lengths you people wil go in order to smear opponents of this right wing regime - where is your proof that who took this photo or what he is - the Journalist, Ofer Adaret is a tried and trusted israeli Journalist who regularly writes in Haaretz. The same story appears elsewhere anyway - I chose Haaretz forgetting it was a Marxist- Leninist rag You really are the pits "Insignia" is not an issue, as you just conceded Jim." I didn't bring it up - Mike did, but but Israeli youth wearing Neo Nazi insignia is very much an issue here and elsewhere - it confirms everything my Manchester Jewish friends shocked we with backi in the sixties - and it confirms what the ex head of Mossad said in The Gatekeepers.. I've been thinking about your scummy dismissal of the Survivors and their friends and families. To be an actual survivor one would have to be around 75 years of age - to have been an adult during the Holocaust you would have to be approaching 90 - on yours, and Israel's reckoning The Holocaust no longer has a voice in Israel because but for a few, those that were there are now dead (sort of like your dead/living historians argument. That's how disgustingly low you people have sunk to in defending these mass murderers. Answer their points, answer the evidence you have been given, from Jewish a historian whose accounts of massacres have never been challenged by you, ARE YOU REALLY GOING TO WALK AWAY FROM YOUR CLAIM THAT MORRIS'S EVIDENCE HAS BEEN CHALLENGED? - SUPPOSE YOU ARE and all the eye witnesses and investigators who have challenged every claim you have ever made. Some people have thrown a wobbler at being accused of Antisemitism, despite the fact that they have all, at one time or another, accused critics of the Israeli Terrorist regime of the same. Running concurrently with this is a thread on which at least one vociferous defender of Israel here is arguing on behalf of making asylum seekers wear identifying armbands, which have been compared to the Jewish, yellow stars', and the siting of red plaques on their homes, both of which have exposed them to racist abuse and actual attacks and have now been abandoned due to nationwide protest. The star of this disgusting argument is putting forward and equally vociferous defence hear, his main claim being that if you stop in a 5* Hotel in Britain you would be subject to the same demand, that you would have to wear an armband. I make no apologies for describing the level of some of this discussion as being "Antisemitic" - if it goose-steps - it is what it appears to be. I'm off -not a bad night on Tele - bit of light relief from this squalidness. Jim Carroll Just spotted your reply Mike - sorry if I misjuged your part in this - multi-tasking again |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 16 - 04:00 PM Not a threat, not shaming the Jewish people https://jewishphilosophyplace.wordpress.com/2014/07/14/black-shirt-jewish-neo-nazis-israel-2014-good-night-left-side/ The Survivors have every right to be ashamed and angry at what Israel has become Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 16 - 04:29 PM Well, HiLo, you may disapprove of Jim's form of response but you really can't mean him when you say "only form of response". Jim responds largely by tightly and effectively arguing his corner in considerable detail and he provides more links than anyone else. You may not respect his viewpoint but you've got to be in awe of his thoroughness. As for you, Guest-coward, I do not complain about the forum rules. I've said about ten times more often than anyone else here that this is not my gig. What I do is comment on the lack of forum rules. I hope that my suggestion of unique monikers and logged-in posters only will be seen as a helpful notion in trying to clear this place of the kind of abuse and bigotry that cowardly and dishonest people like you infect it with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 30 Jan 16 - 04:55 PM No Steve, I am in no way in awe of his thoroughness,. He links only to those things which support his views, that is called cherry picking. see his comments on holocaust survivors.. He mentions no other views, especially the views of Other students of the holocaust. Nor does he mention who these "survivors are . Very one sided, just a blatant statement about the condemnation of Israel by these people as representing all holocaust survivors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:01 PM Jim, I didn't bring it up - Mike did, but but Israeli youth wearing Neo Nazi insignia is very much an issue here and elsewhere You know that Nazi insignia has not been worn by any Israeli youth. You are being dishonest Jim. Someone had a T shirt with the logo, 'Good night left side' That is the whole story. Answer their points, What points? All I see is claims and accusations, all unsubstantiated. I've been thinking about your scummy dismissal of the Survivors and their friends and families I have not dismissed them. They are entitled to their opinion, which is shared by many but not all. What is your point? answer the evidence you have been given, from Jewish a historian whose accounts of massacres have never been challenged by you, I have given the Israeli side of the story on Gaza and Beirut. What other so called massacres or atrocities do you want me to address next? ARE YOU REALLY GOING TO WALK AWAY FROM YOUR CLAIM THAT MORRIS'S EVIDENCE HAS BEEN CHALLENGED? If you think that all historians agree with him you are deluded. 5* Hotel in Britain you would be subject to the same demand, I am not aware of any UK hotels offering all inclusive stays, but in foreign resorts many do and rely on wristbands (NOT armbands.) I have stayed in eight in recent years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:18 PM Jim, some Benny Morris quotes for you. I can also list some of the many historians who refute his work. Morris summarized his current political views of the Arab-Israeli conflict in the Irish Times (and other publications): "There was no Zionist 'plan' or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of 'ethnic cleansing'" and "the demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies—much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two." "You have to put things in proportion. These are small war crimes. All told, if we take all the massacres and all the executions of 1948, we come to about 800 who were killed. In comparison to the massacres that were perpetrated in Bosnia, that's peanuts. In comparison to the massacres the Russians perpetrated against the Germans at Stalingrad, that's chicken feed. When you take into account that there was a bloody civil war here and that we lost an entire 1 percent of the population, you find that we behaved very well." In the Haaretz interview, he said: "There is no justification for acts of rape. There is no justification for acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don't think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes." "True, I always voted Labor or Meretz or Sheli and in 1988 I refused to serve in the territories and was jailed for it, but I always doubted the intentions of the Palestinians. The events of Camp David and what followed in their wake turned the doubt into certainty. When the Palestinians rejected the proposal of [prime minister Ehud] Barak in July 2000 and the Clinton proposal in December 2000, I understood that they are unwilling to accept the two-state solution. They want it all: Lod and Acre and Jaffa." "The bombing of the buses and restaurants really shook me. They made me understand the depth of the hatred for us. They made me understand that the Palestinian, Arab and Muslim hostility toward Jewish existence here is taking us to the brink of destruction.... Palestinian society is a very sick society. It should be treated the way we treat individuals who are serial killers. Maybe over the years the establishment of a Palestinian state will help in the healing process. But in the meantime, until the medicine is found, they have to be contained so that they will not succeed in murdering us.... Something like a cage has to be built for them. I know that sounds terrible. It is really cruel. But there is no choice. There is a wild animal there that has to be locked up in one way or another." "We are the greater victims in the course of history and we are also the greater potential victim. Even though we are oppressing the Palestinians, we are the weaker side here. We are a small minority in a large sea of hostile Arabs who want to eliminate us. So it's possible than [sic] when their desire is realized, everyone will understand what I am saying to you now. Everyone will understand we are the true victims. But by then it will be too late." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:50 PM "There was no Zionist 'plan' or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of 'ethnic cleansing'" and "the demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies—much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two." Amen brother Benny. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:16 PM The trouble, HiLo, is that you're biased. That's fine. So am I. There comes a time when you have to look at your opponents' viewpoints to see whether they've supported them. I note that you you do not criticise our vacuous Guest's viewpoints, which are generally either unsupported or are supported by Zionist sources only. Jim goes to considerable lengths to support his arguments. It's up to you to pick over his points and links and demolish them if you don't like them. That's what I do with Keith when I can be arsed. I demolished him over his falsehoods with regard to Geoffrey Wheatcroft. It was easy because you can't erase your lies on this website. If you don't agree with Jim it's down to you, if you can be arsed, to pick him apart. You don't do that. You just complain because you don't agree. Not good enough. So there's a challenge for you. Work as hard as Jim and you might get somewhere. Simply whine about name-calling and you just won't. Why not? Because your own mates here do it all the time, you don't bollock them, and we can all see that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:26 PM These are small war crimes. [but war crimes nonetheless] Even though we are oppressing the Palestinians Amen, brother Benny. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:30 PM Simply whine about name-calling and you just won't. Kind of like constantly whining about the house rules eh! Kettle meet pot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:34 PM The trouble, HiLo, is that you're biased. Do you think that might be because HiLo lived there and knows the reality of the place first hand unlike those who just surf anti Israel websites for their information? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:40 PM Care to list those anti-Israel websites, if you're so sure about them? Thought not! Talk is so easy... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:41 PM First of all Steve, I have no "mates" here. And I am not biased, I have no problem with legitimate criticism of Israel. Why would anyone attempt to "pick apart" his kind of nonsense Jim hurls up here. . If you cannot see what is obvious in his stance, that is not my concern. your observation about those arguments supported only by zionists viewpoints don,t seem to extend to anti Israel viewpoints . Work as hard as Jim, Jim only works, if you wish to go fishing for support of one sided views. I am critical of Jim , not because of his viewpoint, but because he has no viewpoint. He has only one objective, to vilify Israel. How does one reason with that. As for others who disagree with him, and there are many, that is their business. but it does not equate to them being my mates. so let us be clear about that. are all those who agree with Jim your mates. You need to get off that "you lot" hobby horse Steve! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:26 PM Keith Benny Morris listed 27 massacres - you said there were no massacres - you said that his claims had been disputed - you lied. You said that there have never been any massacres - ever - you lied You have denigrated the Holocaust survivors and their families and associates. You have supported the Israeli regime rather than the Jewish people. You have denigrated eye-witnesses to the Sabra/Shatila massacre in order to deny what is an established fact - that the Israelis facilitated the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees on the pretence that they were searching for fighters and arms - neither were ever found. Youu claimed that no massacres of prisoners took place after the Six Days war yet that fact is still available for viewing on the 'Storyville' film which you claim to have watched - you lied. You have claimed that David Ben Gurion's statement was a "fake" after having accepted it and claimed he meant something else - you lied twice. You have refused to acknowledge that Israel has not only attempted to avoid being tried for war crimes but she has attempted to have the International Criminal Court Closed down in order to do so. You said that you weren't in favour of killing hostages yet you are now basing the support of 2015 massacres on just that - killing hostages. You have been given reams of evidence implicating Israel in war crimes and massacres, yet you claim there is none - you are lying. You are now defending the enforced wearing of armbands by asylum seekers, practice that has been compared to the enforced wearing of Yellow Stars by Jews - which makes you what you are. Mike says he is "disappointed" which makes him what he is. I was "disappointed" when my sister forgot to send me a birthday card. What a sad, squalid bunch you all are, without exception. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:09 PM Steve, I demolished him over his falsehoods with regard to Geoffrey Wheatcroft. Not true. I had already quoted him in full, and later gave a partial quote. There was no deception and your attempted "demolition" fell flat. Jim, Benny Morris listed 27 massacres - Do you mean in 1948 Jim? This is what he really says about it. "When you take into account that there was a bloody civil war here and that we lost an entire 1 percent of the population, you find that we behaved very well." "There is no justification for acts of rape. There is no justification for acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don't think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes." " Compared to the wars of other nations, the number of these criminal acts is low. But it is true that if you compare this to the behavior of the Israeli army in other wars, there were more black deeds in 1948. There were people who lost control of their inhibitions. There were people who came out of the death camps in Europe and this stuck in their minds. They wanted to take revenge on the goyim [non-Jews]. There were men who fought for an entire year because the Arabs forced them to fight. They felt they were coerced into war, and they wanted to avenge the deaths of their comrades in arms. Every nation has stains on its history. And the black deeds in this war are one of the stains on our history. " "One also should remember that we did not win easily, and to lose 1 percent of the population (around 5,800 killed on the Israeli side) is a very high percentage. Numbers like these would be intolerable in a normal society." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:23 PM Jim, that the Israelis facilitated the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees on the pretence that they were searching for fighters and arms - neither were ever found. Israel denies even knowing about the massacre until it started. They then acted to end it. There most certainly were fighters and arms in the camp and I will happily provide proof. You have claimed that David Ben Gurion's statement was a "fake" after having accepted it and claimed he meant something else - you lied twice Not rue Jim. I said that one of your quotes was faked, and the other probably was. In any case, that one even if genuine gives the Arab view not his own. You have refused to acknowledge that Israel has not only attempted to avoid being tried for war crimes but she has attempted to have the International Criminal Court Closed down in order to do so. It is not true that Israel "has attempted to have the International Criminal Court Closed down" They have no power to do such a thing. They have been co-operating with ICC not trying to destroy it. You said that you weren't in favour of killing hostages Made up Jim. No-one is in favour of killing hostages, but I have made no statement that it is never justified. You have been given reams of evidence implicating Israel in war crimes and massacres, yet you claim there is none - you are lying. No such evidence has been provided. Now would be a good time. Give your most incriminating fact. You are now defending the enforced wearing of armbands by asylum seekers, Not true. I just pointed out that some means of identifying those entitled to free food was required, and that wristbands were the usual way of doing that, with clear advantages over other means of ID. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:46 PM Well HiLo, I am very glad to see you distancing yourselves from Keith, Teribus, akenaton and the squalid Guest-coward. Your star is in the ascendancy, for sure. As for me, I speak only for myself and I'll criticise my ostensible allies if and when. I've done that with Musket several times and he's done it to me and we both take it like men (or women). Likewise, Dave. Even Jim has been known to give me (what we called on Radcliffe Parks Department) a small bollocking. And I he. We're honest brokers on the whole and we have rhino hides. Now you lived in Israel for a while. Good. Unfortunately, there are people in the UK who have lived here all their lives yet who appear to be pig-ignorant about politics and society. Why, some of them even vote UKIP. I'm afraid that living there isn't much of a qualification for knowing everything about the place. After all, so many Israeli citizens vote Likud, a strategy that will serve only to keep them in fear and insecurity forever. So living there does not necessarily equate with superior inside knowledge. Two of my uncles went to live for many years in Rhodesia and they both kept "boys" in shacks at the bottom of their gardens. The "boys'" families were basically slaves. You should have heard their justifications for that. When they were finally forced back to the UK they told us that it was what the blacks wanted and that there was no other way to run the place and that we simply didn't understand because we'd never been there. Ring any bells? Perhaps, in the words of Brian Clough, we can discuss this for twenty minutes or so before agreeing that I'm right. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:52 PM And Keith, you made yourself a laughing stock over the Wheatcroft affair. You lied and twisted and wriggled and we all laughed our bollocks off. Even Teribus struggled with it. Please don't make me dig all that up again. Jaysus, I'm tempted... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:51 PM Not true Steve. You accused me of partial quoting, when I had already quoted the relevant passage in full. There was no deception as you tried to claim. Everyone knew what was in it because I had posted it already. You had no case. See how instead of discussing the current subject, Steve like Jim tries to slander me with misrepresentations of long ago threads. Anything to say about Mid East conflict Steve, or are you just going to make accusations from the past about me personally instead? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:34 AM Jim: Not sure why I am bothering to engage with you yet again, as you appear to me to be of all my online acquaintance the prime exemplar of the "Mind·made·up·please·do·not·confuse·with·facts" syndrome. But there are nevertheless many things I do respect about you; so will simply ask, in mild tones:- If "disappointed" is too mild a term to satisfy you as to my feeling abut how Israel has turned out after all our youthful labours and hopes for it, so you lump me in your blanket denunciation of all who have the temerity to differ with the opinions of the egregiously impeccably-opinioned J Carroll, what word would you prefer or suggest instead? Steve: Agree with you about many things too; but can't make out where you are coming from in associating yourself with the scaredikatz who denounce UKIP as being indistinguishable from the NF & BNP & such when it is a respectable party whose admirable aim is to get us out of the stinking EU which we should never have joined in the first place only pathetic·bleeding·Heath wanted his vile name to go down in history. I voted for UKIP & shall again [if I live till the next election -- 84 this year!]. & what do you want to make of it, eh!? Bloody impertinence, thus denouncing the way I exercise my own free vote! Surprised at you! ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 31 Jan 16 - 01:11 AM Jim: Sorry to hear about the birthday card. Hope your sister apologised when you pointed it out |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 31 Jan 16 - 01:13 AM I did not suggest that I knew all there is to know about Israel simply because I had lived there. But I do know enough to state that it is not the country that Jim Carroll describes. There are many people in Israel who are critical of the government, there are many Jews outside Israel who are also very disturbed by the state of affairs in Israel . I do agree with you about Likud, they will not move the country any nearer to peace. But rhetoric like Jims is not helpful. It has the opposit effect and drives people of reason crazy. It is possible, believe it or not, that Jim Carroll is wrong! I, for one, do not believe in his infallibility! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Dave Date: 31 Jan 16 - 04:29 AM Mike, I think we should copy the last paragraph of your 12:34AM post over to the hate speech thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 16 - 05:13 AM "Mind·made·up·please·do·not·confuse·with·facts" " As with your friends Mike, you are extremely welcome to challenge any of the facts I have put up - I dearly wish would would. The fact that you or they have never even attempted to do so is a pretty strong confirmation that they are what I believe them to be - facts. "Do you mean in 1948 Jim?" You have denied over and over again that there have ever been massacres "no massacres", "what massacres" - when I put Morris's statement up you said he had been disputed - not another wriggle after so many, surely? Or maybe you were only defending "three points". He stated that Israel carried out 27 massacres - that is twenty seven more than "none". Maybe "behaving well" to some people - not where I was brought up. You stated that Morris's claims had been disputed - they haven't, you lied. Odd though that you should be now hiding behind a single statement of a "disputed" historian - or maybe not!! Expulsion not a war crime - the refusal to allow millions of people to return to their homes following a war goes beyond a war crime and is a crime against humanity. The most recent expulsions/expansionism/spread of settlements/evictions of Palestinians - Bedouins included, is what makes what is happening ethnic cleansing. "Not rue Jim. I said that one of your quotes was faked, and the other probably was." Do you really want me to dig our all your postings claiming Ben Gurion was "only putting the Arab point of view when he admitted stealing their land" - surely not - remember the not digging when you're in a hole" proverb. Your case for the massacres is that Israel carried them out (or "didn't") because they were harbouring fighters - that is supporting killing hostages - if you're not, you should vebe condemning them. "Give your most incriminating fact." You've had all the facts, over and over again - but their rrefusal to stand trial and to bring the International crimes court crashing in flames is fairly incriminating - you have yet to address the consequences of that. "I just pointed out that some means of identifying those entitled to free food was required," That is defending something that has been compared to the wearing of yellow stars, was compulsory indoors and out, has brought about racist abuse and has now been exposed for what it is and abandoned - you lied about that as you have here - seems an inbuilt trait. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Jan 16 - 05:43 AM Jim, massacres were committed by both sides in 1948. I acknowledge now and have never denied that some Jews committed vile crimes at that time. Morris You claim recent massacres and atrocities. Israel denies them, and no unequivocal evidence for them has been provided. Do not just deny that without reminding us what it is. You keep demanding that we respond to the work of Benny Morris. He says, "There was no Zionist 'plan' or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of 'ethnic cleansing'" and "the demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies—much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies." He says, "These are small war crimes. All told, if we take all the massacres and all the executions of 1948, we come to about 800 who were killed. In comparison to the massacres that were perpetrated in Bosnia, that's peanuts. In comparison to the massacres the Russians perpetrated against the Germans at Stalingrad, that's chicken feed. When you take into account that there was a bloody civil war here and that we lost an entire 1 percent of the population, you find that we behaved very well." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Jan 16 - 05:54 AM but their rrefusal to stand trial and to bring the International crimes court crashing in flames is fairly incriminating - you have yet to address the consequences of that. They have not refused to stand trial. They have never been asked to. They have certainly not brought the ICC crashing in flames!!! Statements like these show that you are incapable of being rational about anything to do with Israel. You do have an irrational phobia that clouds your mind. Israel has been co-operating with ICC over Gaza 2014, and the initial ICC report does not condemn them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:09 AM "Jim, massacres were committed by both sides in 1948." Then why have you persistently denied that Israel has never carried out massacres, and why did you claim that Benny Morris's statements had been disputed? As I said, you lied on both counts - why did you attempt to undermine one of Israel's leading historians with untruths? I am noth the slightest bit interested in what else Morris has to say - he said that Israel was guilty of 27 massacres - you dismissed this as having been disputed - a porky. "much as the demonisation of the Jews " You are now claiming critisism of Israel is demonising Jews - that is Antisemitic - the Jewish people are in no way responsible for the crimes of Israel, as you appear to be claiming, otherwise, why bring it up? "I acknowledge now and have never denied that some Jews committed vile crimes at that time." Bit convoluted - are you still saying that you have never claimed Jews committed foul crimes - please explain this unintelligible statement. They have been protected from standing trial by a mass of US vetoes time after time They refused to co-operate with the 2009 U.N. enquiry into the Gaza incursion, they have encouraged and participated in the setting up of a rigged "enquiry" into 2015 massacres which found them "not guilty". They have opposed the International Criminal Court to the extent of demanding that it be closed. After Sabra/Shatila, they set up an equally rigged enquiry and found themselves "not guily" for their part in the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees - they, nor the killers they helped to carry out the massacre and helped to escape, have ever faced trial - they even buried the bodies so the enormity of the massacre will never be known. Israel has never been tried for its war crimes and massacres and, if it has its way, (and if Donald Trump is elected) it never shall. Nowe stop ducking and diving; if you wish to defend Israel, come up with something better than "they didn't do it" - what kind of a defence attorney are you? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:25 AM Then why have you persistently denied that Israel has never carried out massacres, and why did you claim that Benny Morris's statements had been disputed? Because I was referring to recent history not 1948 before the IDF even existed in its present form. Benny Morris has numerous critics and historians who disagree with him. He says, ""True, I always voted Labor or Meretz or Sheli and in 1988 I refused to serve in the territories and was jailed for it, but I always doubted the intentions of the Palestinians. The events of Camp David and what followed in their wake turned the doubt into certainty. When the Palestinians rejected the proposal of [prime minister Ehud] Barak in July 2000 and the Clinton proposal in December 2000, I understood that they are unwilling to accept the two-state solution. They want it all: Lod and Acre and Jaffa." Is that universally accepted Jim? Do you accept it? What about, "The bombing of the buses and restaurants really shook me. They made me understand the depth of the hatred for us. They made me understand that the Palestinian, Arab and Muslim hostility toward Jewish existence here is taking us to the brink of destruction.... Palestinian society is a very sick society. It should be treated the way we treat individuals who are serial killers. Maybe over the years the establishment of a Palestinian state will help in the healing process. But in the meantime, until the medicine is found, they have to be contained so that they will not succeed in murdering us.... Something like a cage has to be built for them. I know that sounds terrible. It is really cruel. But there is no choice. There is a wild animal there that has to be locked up in one way or another." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:25 AM Well, HiLo, I listened to some interviews on Radio 3 a couple of weeks ago with the actor Antony Sher who had lived in apartheid South Africa. You can probably get a podcast of the interviews. He expressed his extreme shame when he admitted that he didn't see the horrors of apartheid until he left the country. You were not in Israel as a Palestinian unless I'm seriously mistaken. The privileged in divided countries are insulated from the troubles. It's up to you to open your eyes now to what goes on. My uncles, returning from Rhodesia, refused to see it. Antony Sher opened his eyes. I don't know where you are with it. And please don't tell me that I had to live there. Most people who live there are fed a distorted view of what goes on, if they have to think about it at all. It's what governments do, even ours. When I came to England in 1968, at 19, I looked around me and I didn't see any Jewish leading men in the classical theatre, so I thought it best to conceal my Jewishness. Also, I quickly became conscious of apartheid when I arrived here, and I didn't want to be known as a white South African. I was brought up in a very apolitical family. We were happy to enjoy the benefits of apartheid without questioning the system behind it. Reading about apartheid when I came to England was a terrible shock. So I lost the accent almost immediately, and if anyone asked me where I was from I would lie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:29 AM Michael, if your love of UKIP is predicated simply on their wanting us out of Europe, I'm afraid you don't get UKIP at all and I suggest that you do a little digging. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:31 AM I would never slander you, Keith. You're pretty good at digging your own holes. As for having anything to say on the conflict in question, well blow me down, I've never mentioned it before in any of my posts, have I? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:34 AM "much as the demonisation of the Jews " I never said that. It is a Morris quote not mine. the killers they helped to carry out the massacre and helped to escape, have ever faced trial - they even buried the bodies so the enormity of the massacre will never be known. "they helped to carry out the massacre " is an unsubstantiated accusation that they deny. I put their side of the story. "they even buried the bodies" is an unsubstantiated accusation that they deny. I put their side of the story. Israel has never been tried for its war crimes and massacres Perhaps it has not committed any. That is certainly what other decent democratic governments think. There is certainly no unequivocal evidence for it. if you wish to defend Israel, come up with something better than "they didn't do it" - "they didn't do it" is another of your fake quotes Jim. I have never said such a thing. I just put their side of the argument. What is your objection to both sides being heard? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:58 AM "Because I was referring to recent history not 1948 before the IDF even existed in its present form" You specifically targeted Benny Morris's "27 massacres" statement, claiming they dad been disputed - if they have where? You have always claimed there have never been any massacres - don't say you are going to lie about this after the number of times you have said it? "I never said that. It is a Morris quote not mine." You have put it up twice in support of your arguments - it is your defence which makes it antisemitic - for crying out loud, stand by it. Morris's reason for putting forward, considering the times he was writing about, is perfectly acceptable, yours is not. Stop putting up irrelevant Morris quotes that are not being disputed, especially as you are still lying about his arguments being challenged, and have yet to give us examples. ""they didn't do it" is another of your fake quotes Jim." It is an accurate paraphrase of your entire argument - I will continue to use it - nothing fake about it. Stop digging Jim Carroll Israel's opposition to being tried and the International Criminal Court - are we taking this as read? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 31 Jan 16 - 08:20 AM Car-ramming Attack Reported Near Jerusalem; Assailant Shot Dead None said hurt in car-ramming, hours after two Israelis were seriously wounded after a Palestinian police officer opened fire in IDF checkpoint. Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 16 - 08:32 AM " Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed!" Occupied territories Indeed Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 31 Jan 16 - 08:40 AM Sorry Jim, can't accept that report. It's by that extreme left wing organisation Amnesty International. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 31 Jan 16 - 08:42 AM Quite right Steve, I did not live there. As a Palestinian . I also never claimed that Israel is blameless in that sorry mess that is the Middle East. When living there one IS aware of the split personality of the place...the deeply held belief that The Jewish people feel the need for a " homeland" and the equally obvious fact that Palestinians need a "homeland" as well. most of the people I knew whilst living there recognized both those needs but obviously could not agree as to how that should happen. My personal belief is that Palestinians have been shafted both by Israel and by their own leadership. On a slightly lighter.note, I have lived in four countries over my working life. I hope, if the conversation arises, that I may be anble to comment on them as well. But, to return to your point, I do know that .living in a place does not always give one expertise but Do feel that experience of a place is, in many ways, a great teacher if one is interested and observant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 31 Jan 16 - 09:02 AM that extreme left wing organisation Amnesty International. In April 2015, Amnesty International voted down a motion to oppose anti-Semitism in Great Britain. http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/134529/amnesty-rejects-call-campaign-against-antisemitism Representatives of the group claimed that Amnesty International had simply declined to pass a motion with a single focus; however, it was quickly discovered that the group had devoted an extensive report to anti-Muslim prejudice in Britain.https://www.aivl.be/sites/default/files/bijlagen/Rapportchoiceandprejudice.pdf MORE |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 16 - 09:03 AM "Sorry Jim, can't accept that report. It's by that extreme left wing organisation Amnesty International." Shit - must ask the Israelis did they did it - that'll confirm it one way or the other Sorry Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Jan 16 - 09:31 AM "My personal belief is that Palestinians have been shafted both by Israel and by their own leadership." I also think that the ordinary citizens of Israel are bring shafted by their own leaders (not to speak of their regime's puppets in America), whose policies are condemning them to a life of fear, insecurity and a constant state of war or near-war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 31 Jan 16 - 09:42 AM A bit of light reading Andrew Thorpe Apps Andrew Thorpe Apps |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:02 AM One of the big fears that many Jews have , both inside and outside of Israel, is the fear of losing Israel itself. I have heard that fear expressed but when trying to work out how to " save Israel" there is so much deep emotion that it is hard to get round to solutions. This is not an excuse by the way, simply an observation of one of the many factors involved. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:20 AM Fear of losing Israel is part of the "tiny country surrounded by huge hostile enemies" mindset that successive Israeli regimes nurture in order to keep their people onside. It's not just an Israel thing by a long chalk. The enemy without was very well delineated in Orwell's 1984. More recently we've had invocations of evil empires, the axis of evil and so on. The Cold War fed on it for decades, even though "Russia" was never really a threat to the US or Western Europe at all. All illusory but very convenient. Yes there's a lot of rhetoric from the more idiotic Islamic factions about wiping Israel off the map, etc., but rhetoric is all it's ever been. No-one has ever come close, nor should they even think about it (hope I'm not losing friends...) And thank you mods for shutting down a thread just before I'd spent 20 minutes on a post to it. Grr! :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:23 AM Evocation might have been a better word. Or even something else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:34 AM I disagree with you on one point Steve, The losing Israel mindset comes from a much deeper place than politics. Although I do agree that politicians often cater to this fear. But the fear is real and defies political manipulation in a way because it is often at the root of Israels reactions to things going on around them. Again, not an excuse, just an observation. I do not know if many people outside Israel understand this but perhaps it might be useful to look at why this fear exists by looking at recent Jewish history.. the 20th century for example. Just a thought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:38 AM There are many people in Israel who are critical of the government, there are many Jews outside Israel who are also very disturbed by the state of affairs in Israel . Yup. And Bearded Fred, et. al., claim that they are thus antisemitic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:50 AM Predicated, Steve, on the inevitable result of the dishonesty of assuring us all at the time of the 1974 Referendum that an economic agreement, with no political overtones, was all that was being addressed: which Heath and his fellow shitheaps knew right well was never going to be the case. Since when Europe has imposed on us a series of requirements to our national and demographic disadvantage and bane. I expect you will try to invoke the dreaded R word; till recalling that the threats to our wellbeing come exclusively from fellow-Caucasian would-be self-betterers whose motivations are purely economic and not political. There is no threat to their liberties, only to their living standards which is buggerall biznis of yours & mine. Suppose I had better say my piece yet again about how the only thing which really moderates the mutual loathing of the French & Germans is their even greater shared hatred of us, for having beaten one of them in 1945, while the other had so lamentably failed us, and then gome a-cockcrowing on stinking ungrateful cochon de Gaulle's fetid dunghill, as if they had done it all by their bloody stinking selves, oh ainsi brillant qu'ils étaient. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST,HiLo Date: 31 Jan 16 - 11:01 AM Yes Greg, and there are those who refer to pro Israel supporters as antisemetic . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 16 - 11:17 AM "the mutual loathing of the French & Germans is their even greater shared hatred of us" Without cause, of course! Who can forget the hatred, distrust and patronising of all foreigners that our generation had drummed into us from childhood upwards - we even sang hymns about being foreign is "being in "error's chain". Who needs reminding of the Bulldog Drummond and Sax Rohmer depiction of 'Johnny Foreigner', or Punch's ape-like depictions of the Irish - as for Biggles and the wonderful Blackhawks in their SS like uniforms, fighting the great fight and zapping the black savages. Hate us - they were amateurs!! Superstars like Bernard Manning, Jim Davidson and Chubby Brown have kept the flag flying ever since Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 16 - 11:20 AM " Yes Greg, and there are those who refer to pro Israel supporters as antisemetic " And many, many more who refer to opponents of the Israel regime in the same way - sauce for the Goose, and all that. Nice to have hit where it hurts. Jim Caroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 31 Jan 16 - 11:26 AM Yes Greg, and there are those who refer to pro Israel supporters as antisemetic . For example? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:16 PM Yup. And Bearded Fred, et. al., claim that they are thus antisemitic. Yup. And just let anyone make mention of real abuses taking place in countries like Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Gaza, the West Bank, Turkey etc. or, heaven forbid start a thread about it, and Greg is among the first to start screaming Islamophobia, let alone have the thread turn into another Israel bash, often by the second post. He does wear his hypocrisy well, doesn't he. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:24 PM Jim, we have discussed the massacres by both sides in 1948 many times. Here I list some massacres of Jews in 1948 in reply to you relating massacres by Jews. Both sides were guilty of massacres and atrocities. Morris says that the Jews were surprisingly restrained. Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:19 AM "Sixty-two Jews were murdered by Arabs in the first week after the UN partition plan was passed, and by May 15, 1948, a total of 1,256 Jews had been killed, most of them civilians. These deaths were caused by Arab militias, gangs, terrorists and army units which attacked every place of Jewish inhabitation in Palestine. The attacks succeeded in placing Jerusalem under siege and eventually cutting off its water supply. All Jewish villages in the Negev were attacked, and Jews had to go about the country in convoys. In every major city where Jews and Arabs lived in mixed neighborhoods the Jewish areas came under attack. This was true in Haifa's Hadar Hacarmel as well as Jerusalem's Old City. Massacres were not uncommon. THIRTY-NINE Jews were killed by Arab rioters at Haifa's oil refinery on December 30, 1947. On January 16, 1948, 35 Jews were killed trying to reach Gush Etzion. On February 22, 44 Jews were murdered in a bombing on Jerusalem's Rehov Ben-Yehuda. And on February 29, 23 Jews were killed all across Palestine, eight of them at the Hayotzek iron foundry. Thirty-five Jews were murdered during the Mount Scopus convoy massacre on April 13. And 127 Jews were massacred at Kfar Etzion on May 15, 1948, after 30 others had died defending the Etzion Bloc."Frantzman, Seth. Ethnic Cleansing in Palestine?. Jerusalem Post. Aug 16, 2007. Jim, you never make any reference to Jews being massacred at that time. You must see how that looks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:38 PM I would never deny that both sides committed atrocities in 1948, when 1 in every hundred Jews were killed, an extraordinary catastrophe for them. (British losses in WW1 were proportionate, but spread over four years of war not just weeks.) I do not accept that there is unequivocal evidence for any massacres by Israel in recent decades. You certainly have not produced any Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:42 PM Hmm. I'd have thought that latent mutual loathing would be regarded as a damn good reason for HAVING an EU. All that common economic and political interest is a sure-fire way of ensuring that hostilities would never again break out, no? It appears to have worked for the last seventy years, not a bad stretch looking at the history. It means that neither my son nor I have ever had to take up arms and for that alone I'm grateful for the EU. And you can't prove me wrong, can you! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:50 PM Jews were expelled from Arab Lands, too |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:57 PM Greg is among the first to start screaming Islamophobia Examples, Bearded Fred? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:59 PM "Jim, we have discussed the massacres by both sides in 1948 many times." And you have always denied the Israelis carried them out This current argument was instated by your continuing those claims - you even went as far as to claim that Benny Morris's claims of 27 Israeli massacres were "disputed", and you have since tried to set up a smokescreen around this by quoting Moris wildly, even though you have claimed him to having been "disputed. Admit you were telling porkies or leave this alone - your reputation for honesty is already in shreds. "Jim, you never make any reference to Jews being massacred at that time" I have never at any time pretended that massacres did not take place on both sides - you, on the other hand, have always done so, and you have denied every single one since the very beginning. I'm not going to enter into a my massacre was bigger than your massacre argument - a massacre is a massacre. You have to put right your claims about the Six Day War atrocities, or The Sabra Shatila Massacre, and you have now fallen back on the slaughter of "hostages" in defence of the current massacres Proper little massacre denier, aren't you? You now seem to have moved on from ethnic cleansig denial to a face-saving exercie - you really wouldn't have to if you took lessons in truth telling. Your nose must be longer than those of Pinnochio and Tony Blair combined Put up or go away Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: MGM·Lion Date: 31 Jan 16 - 01:14 PM "And you can't prove me wrong, can you! " .,,. Nope. And that doesn't prove that you're right, does it? ☺ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Jan 16 - 01:24 PM And you have always denied the Israelis carried them out I have not. Not in 1948, just in the last half century or so. you even went as far as to claim that Benny Morris's claims of 27 Israeli massacres were "disputed", Everything he has ever said is disputed Jim. I have never at any time pretended that massacres did not take place on both sides - you, on the other hand, have always done so, I have not. Proper little massacre denier, aren't you? No. I just expect evidence. When will you produce some? Put up or go away I will willingly "put up" but what Jim? You accuse Israel of massacres and atrocities but can produce no evidence for it. I "put up" Israel's side of the story, and you have not been able to challenge anything. You should "put up" or stop making accusations you can not substantiate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Jan 16 - 01:33 PM No Michael, it doesn't, but I'm not claiming to be certain. The evidence is good though, innit? Cue demurral from Teribus... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 31 Jan 16 - 02:21 PM This is Israel: "According to Palestinian Media Watch, the Palestinian daily Al Hayat Al Jadida reported, "PA Minister of Health, Hani Abdeen visited the Israeli Hadassah Hospital. This is the first visit by a Palestinian minister to one of the most important Israeli hospitals, according to the hospital's announcement. Minister Abdeen who was accompanied by a delegation that included senior officials of the ministry and of the PA, met with the Director of Ein Karem Hadassah Hospital, Yuval Weiss. He [the minister] visited Palestinian patients being treated in the hospital, and he distributed gifts." Al Hayat Al Jadida continued, "Hospital director Weiss said: 'We relate to patients without regard to nationality and religion. We treat Muslims, Christians, Jews, and other nationalities without bias, and 30% of the patients who are children are Palestinians.' He went on to say: 'We've begun cooperating with the Palestinians. We now train teams of physicians from the hospital in Beit Jala in the southern West Bank, to treat cancer among children. We have about 60 Palestinian medical interns and specialist physicians who will be returning to the Palestinian Authority areas to carry out their work." Note 35% of all doctors in Israel are Arabs |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 31 Jan 16 - 02:28 PM Damascus, January 31 – At least 45 people were killed and dozens more injured in a suburb of the Syrian capital today, in a triple bombing that was not perpetrated by Israel, and will therefore soon disappear from the international consciousness. A car bomb exploded in Sayeda Zeinab, and then two suicide bombers detonated themselves as rescue work was occurring, according to witnesses cited by Reuters. The location, which boasts the oldest Shiite shrine in Syria, and the carnage, which so far includes 110 wounded, will soon drop out of the news cycle because no international bodies will call for an investigative commission into allegations of war crimes, as the bombing was not conducted by Israel. Human rights groups such as Amnesty International quickly condemned the bombing, apparently by the Islamic State, as a violation of the Laws of Armed Conflict and of international humanitarian law, then lost interest as other events such as the existence of Israel grabbed their attention. After a flurry of head-shaking and stern words, the organizations determined that no more could be said or done on the matter, since it was not the Jewish State that had committed the atrocity, and that no further formal steps were necessary. PreOccupied Territory: The Farce Awakens |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 31 Jan 16 - 02:47 PM and 30% of the patients who are children are Palestinians.? Are those the Palestinian children who were injured and maimed in the last Israeli bombardment? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 31 Jan 16 - 02:59 PM Palestinian officer attacks Israeli soldiers with weapon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 16 - 03:04 PM "Not in 1948, just in the last half century or so." Benny Morris??? This is reminiscent of your "only three points" claim. In respect of twenty seven massacres - by whom exactly? "I have not." Show one occasion where you ever admitted to a massacre other than say "what massacres?" or "no massacres" "When will you produce some?" You've gad many - Sabra Shatila, Six Days War, 2015 Gaza - you've denied them all, as you are about to now. "You accuse Israel of massacres and atrocities but can produce no evidence for it." There you go again 'no massacres' Right - that's me done You are free to continue to make a fool of yourself by continual lying - you really don't need my help - it seems the one thing you are good at. "This is Israel:" THIS IS ISRAEL AND THIS PARTICULARLY NASTY AND THIS WHAT ABOUT THIS? Plenty more where they came from Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 31 Jan 16 - 03:29 PM "When will you produce some?" You've gad many - Sabra Shatila, Six Days War, 2015 Gaza - you've denied them all, as you are about to now. The question was when will you produce some EVIDENCE!! All you have put up is unsubstantiated claims and accusations. I do not deny those accusations. Israel does. I just put their side of the story and you have been unable to challenge a word of it. "You accuse Israel of massacres and atrocities but can produce no evidence for it." There you go again 'no massacres' NO! NOT "NO MASSACRES!" JUST NO EVIDENCE OF ANY SINCE 1948!!!! Not one of all those links is about massacres by Israel. Are you admitting defeat on finding any evidence for any massacre since 1948? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 31 Jan 16 - 04:35 PM Are those the Palestinian children who were injured and maimed in the last Israeli bombardment? Surely you mean those who were put in harm's way by the Hamas terrorists who attacked their neighbours with rockets then hid behind the women and children knowing full well that some would be killed or injured for use as propaganda tools. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Greg F. Date: 31 Jan 16 - 04:55 PM Surely you mean those who were put in harm's way by the Hamas terrorists No, I don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Jan 16 - 05:05 PM Serious trolling going on here, Greg and Jim. He's annoyed because we've sussed him as a brainless coward, bigot and charlatan. So, we're going to get this shite for a while. Unless the mods adopt this really original idea I've just thought up. Unique monikers for all! No posting unless registered and logged in! Oops, have I mentioned this before...? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 31 Jan 16 - 06:24 PM Trolling???? The only trolling I see is the constant whining about the rules. Give it a rest for χριστός sake. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Jan 16 - 06:57 PM Not whining. Commenting. This is not my gig nor is it real life. How many times do I have to tell you? And I wish I could match YOUR constant false whining about how you have to stay anonymous, you poor wee thing, so that "we can focus on the post, not the poster." As if your posts contain anything worth reading, troll. You're sussed, mate. You're a fraud, and everyone except a few of your right-wing mates here knows it. As a matter of fact, even they hardly leap to your defence ever, do they? Ever heard Keith, Teribus or akenaton jumping to your defence? Do you know why not? You're a bloody embarrassment to their cause, that's why! They would NEVER do it your way, in spite of their own multifarious deficiencies! Get a life, old bean! :-) Unique monikers for all! No posting unless registered and logged in! (Oops, sorry, mods. I think I may have mentioned that before...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:16 PM χριστός, there's no end to it, is there? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:46 PM Well I will certainly keep on at you, old chap, because I've seen right through your nonsense and your dishonest bleating about anonymity, and I know I'm not the only one. Yours sincerely, Steve Shaw, posting under my real name, uniquely, utterly traceable, registered and logged in, for now and forever. Just as controversial as you, if not more so, and totally fearless as to revealing my identity to the whole world. So who are you? Shall I guess? You're a .....NOBODY! Weeeee! Oh, by the way, mods, have I ever men...oh, never mind! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel) From: GUEST Date: 31 Jan 16 - 08:07 PM Your obsessiveness is making me concerned for your mental health. |
