BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Sep 11 - 08:51 PM

Songwronger-

There's always a temptation to rack up that 1000. Congratulations!

It has been an interesting thread; I've learned a lot, some of which I'd prefer not to have learned.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Sep 11 - 09:06 AM

For those who are keeping score (Al Jazeera):

Libya's interim rulers are claiming that their fighters have overrun the key southern city of Sabha, one of the last strongholds of forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi.

"We are in complete control of the city of Sabha. Everybody, including [those who were] pro-Gaddafi, are now with the revolution," Abdelmajid Seif Ennasr, an official for the National Transitional Council (NTC) in Sabha, told the AFP news agency on Wednesday.

That still leaves the major towns of Sirte and Bani Walid, along the coastal highway, in the hands of pro-Gadhafi forces. Resistance is still described as stiff there.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 08:28 AM

Here's the latest update of what is happening on the ground in Libya (Al Jazeera):

Libyan fighters have said they are waiting for civilians to escape from Sirte, the hometown and stronghold of former leader Muammar Gaddafi, before they start their final advance.

Several attempts by National Transitional Council's (NTC) fighters to take Sirte and Bani Walid, two of Gaddafi's remaining major strongholds, in the past week have ended in disarray and panicked retreat.

Fighters making their way back from the front line said they met fierce resistance at Khamseen, 50km east of Sirte, and that they lacked the firepower to respond.

In Bani Walid, NTC forces moved tanks towards the frontline on Wednesday in an attempt to capture the town.

"Of course it will certainly help us a lot in the final battle. You have seen these tanks. There are also Grads and we will use them by putting them in the front," Abdul Salaam Ganuna, an NTC commander, said.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 04:56 PM

Continued success by Rebels is reported by Al Jazeera in Southern Libya:

Commanders with the National Transitional Council (NTC) said their forces now controlled all three main towns in the Al-Jufra oasis, 24 hours after they announced the capture of Libya's largest desert city, Sabha, in the deep south.

"Al-Jufra - Hun, Waddan and Sokna - is liberated," a military spokesman in Libya's third-largest city Misrata said in a statement early on Thursday.

The defeat of Muammar Gaddafi loyalists in the Saharan oases left his remaining forces in his hometown of Sirte on the Mediterranean coast and the desert city of Bani Walid to its west effectively cut off from any line of escape to the south.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:21 PM

The U.S. has stepped into a messy puddle of oil.

Don't we have enough quagmires? Maybe not for Exxon or Shell

or Blackwater.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Sep 11 - 07:46 PM

Stringsinger-

Not as messy as Iraq or Afghanistan, but then I've a wishy washy liberal, rather than a dedicated Trotskyite. It must be great to have such moral quality.

So, shall I assume that you would still advocate that no intervention was called for in Libya or will you actually defend your position, given what we have learned about the Gadhafi regime?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Sep 11 - 07:28 AM

Furthermore, as I noted earlier, it's fascinating that the Left is always whining about how the West only supports tyrants.   This is one of the few instances in which the West has actually helped topple a tyrant.   But suddenly this isn't what the Left wanted after all.   So it seems leftist commentators are just card-carrrying members of the "ain't it awful?" club.    Whatever it is, "ain't it awful?"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 12:00 AM

Al Jazeera, the pan-Arab news network financed by Qatar, named a member of the Qatari royal family on Tuesday to replace its top news director after disclosures from the group WikiLeaks indicating that the news director had modified the network's coverage of the Iraq war in response to pressure from the United States.

Al Jazeera is under intense scrutiny in the Middle East over its varying coverage of the Arab Spring revolts. Although the network is nominally independent — and its degree of autonomy was itself a revolution in the context of the region's state-controlled news media when it began in 1996 — many people contend that its coverage of the region still reflects the views of its Qatari owners.

Al Jazeera played an early and influential role in covering — some would say encouraging — the unrest in Tunisia and Egypt last winter. It was even more aggressive in its focus on the regime of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi and the struggles of what it called "freedom fighters" in Libya, where Qatar came to play a major role in supporting the rebellion.

http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/09/after-disclosures-by-wikileaks-al.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 11:11 AM

Songwronger-

Good point about Al Gezeera. I'd noticed that their news director had been replaced recently; no reason to draw any conclusions yet, however.

I would hope that its coverage would still provide a good balance to what I harvest from the major press sources in the States and in the UK.

Time will tell...

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Sep 11 - 11:17 AM

oh, and on the battle front Rebel forces have made major advances in Sirte, into the very center of the city and occupying two adjacent neighborhoods (Al Jazeera): click here for report!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 11:14 AM

So since the US pressured Qatar in the Iraq case, we should disregard what they say on Libya.   Of course.    Just ignore that aside from transmitting some rumors of developments, their reporting is echoed by virtually every other news outlet in the world.    Except possibly Russian.   And good socialists should only heed what Russia says, since it's always the truth.   After all, consider Pravda--it's right in the title.

And of course there's your French source, with his imaginative depiction of 11 Sept.

Look, any rational person--perhaps that excludes Mudcat leftists--knows you have to read many sources and use your head to decide what is really going on.

But if you say the Iraq case proves Qatar is a prisoner of the evil West, it must be so---in your alternate universe.

So we still need an answer to the question as to how we can get tourist visas to come gawk at you there.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 12:14 PM

Reuters report: Libya's interim authorities said on Sunday they had found a mass grave in the capital containing the bodies of more than 1,270 people killed by Muammar Gaddafi's security forces in a 1996 massacre at Tripoli's Abu Salim prison.

The uprising that toppled Gaddafi last month was ignited by protests linked to the Abu Salim massacre.

In February, families of inmates killed at the south Tripoli prison in 1996 demonstrated in the eastern city of Benghazi to demand the release of their lawyer.

Human rights groups have estimated that about 2,000 Abu Salim inmates were killed in the 1996 massacre.

"We are dealing with more than 1,270 martyrs and must distinguish each one from the other for identification by
comparing their DNA with family members," said Dr Osman Abdul Jalil, a medical official.

"It may take years to reach the truth."

Khaled al-Sharif, spokesman for the Tripoli Military Council, said investigators had found the site about two weeks
ago, relying on information from people detained on suspicion of involvement in the massacre in some way.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Sep 11 - 08:04 PM

bobad-

Just what we needed, more bodies to justify our case for the Rebel victory. Well, I for one don't need any more bodies to count. The threats from Gadhafi back in March were persuasive enough.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 01:29 PM

Rebels are renewing their attempt to "liberate" Sirte from Gadhafi loyalists:

Fighters supporting Libya's interim government have raced into the eastern outskirts of Sirte backed by NATO warplanes and are fighting street-to-street battles with loyalists of Muammar Gaddafi in his home town.

Thick black smoke billowed into the air as National Transitional Council (NTC) fighters battled at a roundabout about 2km from the centre of the key town on Monday.

The thud of large explosions could be heard as NATO aircraft roared overhead, but NATO would not comment on latest operations in Sirte.

NTC fighters fought with machineguns and rifles and moved tanks and heavy artillery into the town.

"[NTC fighters] are entering the city from the east for the first time," Al Jazeera's Sue Turton, reporting from the frontlines, said.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 04:52 PM

Stringsinger-

Not as messy as Iraq or Afghanistan, but then I've a wishy washy liberal, rather than a dedicated Trotskyite. It must be great to have such moral quality.

So, shall I assume that you would still advocate that no intervention was called for in Libya or will you actually defend your position, given what we have learned about the Gadhafi regime?

Charley Noble
I will defend it, because when it suits the west they support tyrants or take no action, this proves to me that the West is not in the least concerned about toppling tyrants, unless the West benefits in a particular way.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 07:24 PM

Dick-

"the West is not in the least concerned about toppling tyrants, unless the West benefits in a particular way."

I couldn't agree with you more, and it's sad about those other unfortunate countries. Do you know of any powerful country anywhere on this globe that has a good record of helping overthrow tyrants?

Tanzania once helped chase Idi Amin out of Uganda but it's hardly a powerful country.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 03:36 AM

The abuse and murder of black african migrant workers has started in the new Libya.

I think we have created another disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 06:35 AM

"has started".    Don't you ever do any research?   Bad feelings between Arabs and blacks are not exactly new.   Didn't start in 2011--except in your alternate universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 07:51 AM

Re mistreatment of black Africans the leadership have over and over stressed that this kind of vigilantism must be stopped and will be looked into by the new government. They have also ensured Amnesty International that they will look into any misdeeds carried out by their own forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 08:45 AM

There is a major problem of racism/ethnic strife that has long historical roots in Libya (and other countries in North Africa). Thousands of Black Africans from Southern Libya and from adjacent countries worked as migrant labor in the North, and some also worked as mercenaries, doing the dirtiest work for the Gadhafi regime. No one should be surprised or shocked to find them mistreated at this point by some Rebels.

It is to their credit that the Rebel leadership, imperfect as it is, has urged restraint against such reprisals.

So, no, "we" haven't created another disaster. What you (Akenaton) could have said is that "we" have helped create conditions in which reprisals can be expected, and in some cases have been documented. And then I would agree with you.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 09:03 AM

To be honest, media are less rosy here in reporting the news, during the weekend there were interviews with soldiers on the front line in Sirte, saying they were only ever going to make any headway there if heavy weaponry and leadership would be come available, printed media report powerstruggles and cracks in the alliance

Pretty much what can be expected and hopefully all that will be overcome but there are certainly a few bumps in the road that have yet to be taken.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Sep 11 - 11:15 AM

The question being begged here is what happens to Libya when the TNC takes over?
"New boss, same as the old boss?"

The Egyptians made a fatal decision to throw their revolution to their military, an institution not known for honoring democratic values but autocratic ones.

Does anyone really think you can bomb democracy into being?
There was the rise of post-war Germany but it took a long time for them to climb out from under the rubble. There was the stain of Dresden.

The problem is this: America supports dictators until they overstep their authority by
threatening America, then the support is dramatically overturned. 1. Gadaffi 2. Osama
(during the days of the Mujadaheen), 3. Noriega 4. Suharto 5. Papa Doc and Baby Doc
6. Saddam Hussein 7.Chiang Kai-shek.....the list goes on.

"The dictator is dead...long live the dictator......" (U.S. foreign policy).

Then what kind of nation supports "Guantanamo"?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 07:55 AM

Muammar Gaddafi is believed to be hiding near the western Libyan town of Ghadamis under the protection of Touareg tribesmen, a senior Libyan military official said.

"One tribe, the Touareg, is still supporting him and he is believed to be in the Ghadamis area in the south," Hisham Buhagiar, a senior military official of the Libya's new leadership, told Reuters.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 11:40 AM

Here come the Tuaregs!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 11:49 AM

The view of Fidel Castro Ruz

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 04:19 PM

Nothing is "rosey" about the fighting to take control of Sirte. Here an update from Al Jazeera:

Forces loyal to Libya's interim government say they have captured the airport in Sirte, the birthplace of the former Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi.

Fighters belonging to National Transitional Council said on Wednesday they were in control of the airport after intense fighting in the coastal city, one of the last of two bastions of support for the deposed Libyan leader.

Sirte has withstood a siege by NTC fighters hitting it with tank and rocket fire as well as NATO air raids.

But intense sniper and artillery fire from pro-Gaddafi forces has so far prevented NTC forces from taking Sirte, despite more than two weeks of fighting and two full-on assaults.

Al Jazeera's Zeina Khodr, reporting from the city, said the latest seizure by NTC forces marked the capture of a strategic site.


"Anti-Gaddafi fighters seem to be in control of Sirte airport, a very strategic location; they have been receiving help from NATO," she said.

But our correspondent said that NTC fighters have not been able to hold territory inside Sirte.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 11:03 PM

Interesting article from Der Spiegel ... for those that may be interested

A Questionable Form of Freedom for North Africa

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 08:34 PM

Rebels still maintain control over Sirte airport.

Jumping a little late onto the bandwagon Sen. John McCain arrived in Tripoli proclaiming:

"Libyan people have inspired the world, the sacrifice of the Libyan people give Libyans a lasting chance for peace," he said at a news conference.

"The next few month will shape the future. The NTC will announce a new cabinet and it is important for it to be inclusive of all.

"It is important of the NTC to bring in any armed groups under its responsible authority. They also need to bring Gaddafi and his family to justice.

So it goes.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 03:12 AM

I think we've heard all that before Charley.
It's so bloody depressing!`

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 08:15 AM

akenaton-

Well, I was just trying to provide you something to nibble on, and McCain was there!

McCain became oddly silent after calling for early intervention. Now that it looks as if the NATO intervention has reinforced the Rebel effort enough to topple Gadhafi, McCain is there to take his share of credit.

What's McCain's position on Syria?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:05 PM

Here's a chilling Al Jazeera video report about 10,000 drums of radioactive yellow cake recently discovered by Rebels in a warehouse near Sabah: click here for report!

Gadhafi swore that all of his radioactive supplies were turned over to international authorities. I guess he was not telling the whole truth.

There are also sinister looking shells or warheads in the warehouses that may contain poisonous gas.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 05:26 PM

Maybe he was just watching it for Saddam?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 09:39 PM

Akenaton-

My very thought! Wonder if Baby Bush had similar thoughts? No, that's all history and he's too busy writing his autobiography to second guess that.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 05:55 AM

"There are also sinister looking shells or warheads in the warehouses that may contain poisonous gas."

Well they may but I would very much doubt it. For safety and degradation issues related to what those shells or warheads have to filled with, you do not "arm" such weapons until you are about to use them - that process from authorisation to actually arming the munitions (Bombs, rockets, artillery shells or mortars) distributing them so that they are ready to go takes 45 minutes. That is what we, in the armed forces, learned during the "Cold War", that is what was confirmed to us by the new NATO member States who were formerly part of the Warsaw Pact. Now who was it again that told the world and its dog about Chemical and Biological weapons and 45 minutes again and was accused of lying?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 11:38 AM

Mr Blair.....lying....I dont believe it!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 12:41 PM

Teribus-

Would you view the full video, linked above at 30 Sep 11 - 02:05 PM.

I haven't a clue what those rows of canisters are.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 01:11 PM

This thread is akin to a self-perpetuating feedback loop.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 02:03 PM

L.H. .... I agree .... in fact it's getting to have some really unique sound effects .... so much I think we should add some sort of melody from a Moog Synthesiser to the track .... the results might provide a good back drop music mood for a film noir flick.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 05:32 PM

Hope you read all the posts carefully. Some are unique. ;~)

Well, at least one is!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 07:45 PM

This thread ... like every well composed piece of music has a good middle eight.

biLL ... :~0

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 03:50 AM

"There are also sinister looking shells or warheads in the warehouses that may contain poisonous gas."

That is what you wrote Charley.

I looked at your linked video report and saw no sinister looking shells or warheads. In order of presentation I viewed:

- 45 gallon drums of Uranium yellow cake;
- Soviet/Russian Grad Rocket launcher tubes
- Soviet/Russian surface-to-air-missiles on their transporters
- Containment vessels (contents of inner compartment unknown)

Those containers are neither shells or warheads.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 11:05 AM

Teribus-

I believe it was the containment vessels that I considered so sinister.

What a temptation this stockpile must be for international arms smugglers. There were reports that the warehouses are being observed 24 hours by surveillance drones. But there really needs to be international observers there on the ground, in additional to Libyan guards.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 02:47 PM

That's nothing new is it Charley?

Even in the early days of the rising there were reports of convoys of lorries shifting stockpiled weapons out of Libya. Depending on sources at this moment there are between 5 and 10.000 SAM7 missiles unaccounted for, off to the black market arms traders it is believed.

(the 10K number appeared on Der Spiegel website today, from a NATO source, German defence sources spoke of 5000)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 05:04 PM

Peter-

Only the video of the warehouse near Sabah is new, to me, and it reinforces the point of how much evil stuff Gadhafi was stockpiling. Gadhafi certainly had his yellow cake; but he should have a chance to eat it too. Party on!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 05:08 PM

According to Al Jazeera there has been a 48-hour ceasefire announced by the Rebels to permit more civilians to flee from Serte:

Hundreds of residents of Sirte are fleeing the coastal town after the National Transitional Council (NTC) announced a 48-hour suspension in fighting to capture toppled leader Muammar Gaddafi's hometown.

A long queue of cars jammed the roads leading out of Sirte on Sunday as civilians sought to escape a worsening humanitarian crisis in the town.

Residents fleeing the town of around 100,000 say that those still trapped inside are running low on food and supplies, enduring NTC and NATO shelling as well as intimidation from forces loyal to Gaddafi who are trying to prevent some people from leaving.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 07:35 PM

Here's a little glimpse of what Nicolas Pelham found in Tripoli some 4 weeks ago:

"The sense of local ownership of the revolution is important: No one
has stripped the electricity cables from pylons for their copper, as
Iraqis did after the US invaded their country and toppled Saddam
Hussein. Libyans, who before the uprising depended on an army of foreign
labor, farm their own allotments, run their own shops, sweep the
streets and volunteer as hospital nurses. Homeowners with private wells
open their doors to those with none. On their own initiative, policemen
in Fashloum, a working-class district in the center of town, met in the
mosque on the first Friday after the colonel's flight and agreed to
reestablish a local force. By midday the following day, a score of its
hundred policemen had reported for duty.
Residents of housing estates who rarely spoke to each other under
Qaddafi have created neighborhood councils, merging elders from the
traditional conflict resolution mechanisms, the lijan al-sulh
(reconciliation committees), with the underground leadership that
planned the revolt, as well as respected men from the mosque. Within a
week, their subcommittees were supplying better services than the city's
five-star hotels. The mosque in Hadaba's Haddad quarter, a poor
district of rural migrants, offered air conditioning and so much water
it spilled into the streets. Ironically, in the colonel's absence,
Tripolitanians created the very social system he had taught but never
realized -- a jamahiriyya, a decentralized network of grassroots, non-partisan people's committees."

http://www.merip.org/mero/mero090711

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 08:15 AM

For those who haven't read "the writing on the wall" take a look at some of these photos: Click here for PIXS!

No, fear not, they're not documenting atrocities, and some are outright humorous.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,mudcat7
Date: 07 Oct 11 - 01:29 PM

its time to brun the american flag and destory ky .

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 09:34 AM

mudcat7-

"its time to brun the american flag and destory ky ."

"brun"?

Well, that is thought-provoking.

Any other insights on "brunning" issues?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 08:17 PM

maybe he/she meant 'bruin'

but

bruin means bear ... bear ?!?!

ok

now this is beyond thought provoking.

all in all

do we really give a rat's ass what he/she was trying to get across.

now

back to the subject of this thread ....


biLL ... :)