BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 May 11 - 11:58 AM

McGrath-

"They already appear to have used cluster bombs."

"They" and I could be wrong were the Gadhafi forces a few weeks ago, lobbing them in as shells or rockets at Misrata.

So hard to keep score when so few care!

But you make a good general point.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 11 - 12:21 PM

Yes, Gaddaffi's side also appears to have been using cluster bombs. But it just seems they aren't the only ones.

Like the United States, and a handful of other countries (eg Israel, Russia, China), Libya has not ratified the International Convention on Cluster Munitions.

The other countries involved in this war have signed the Convention, so it would be illegal for them to use cluster bombs. However the Convention was specially modified to make it legal for counties which have signed it to cooperate militarily with non-signatories who use such weapons.

So that's all right, so long as the only NATO people using these weapons are USA...

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 11 - 12:28 PM

I haven't seen any reference to NATO forces using cluster bombs, can you provide a link to your information source?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 11 - 01:48 PM

Here's a video clip claimed to show this.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 11 - 02:04 PM

I would be very careful believing what the original poster of that vid clip says about it. If you go to his site or read the comments at the original YouTube posting it would appear that he is someone with an anti American agenda. Here is one of the comments:

"This was not a cluster bomb, nor was it in Brega. (If that was a cluster bomb then Misrata would be wiped off the map because Gaddafi forces have been shelling non-stop with those for a while now.) Anyways, this video is of an ammunition dump in the Benina Airport area in Benghazi exploding, this was reported a while back. It was a result of sabotage or an accident as there was no fighting anywhere near there nor in Benghazi at the time.

I am Libyan, also from Benghazi. Search Benghazi Explosion
BarcaFeb17 3 weeks ago 3

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 May 11 - 11:48 PM

Bobad-

Interesting. We do need to check out as well as we can the bias of our sources, and identify what it is up front if we can.

I generally find Al Zazeera a useful source, knowing that they are certainly not biased in favor of the US. CNN appears to be less than reliable to me; too often they appear to jump to conclusions on the basis of what will make a dramatic headline.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 May 11 - 08:49 AM

Al-Jazeera is no less biased than any other news organization.

But in light of its primary audience, when it does *not* repeat or endorse a story critical of the US or Israel, that should mean it doesn't believe the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 May 11 - 07:08 AM

"claimed" is the right word.

As noted by others, there is precisely zero proof that the caption "Obama uses cluster bombs on civilians..." has any validity whatsoever.

Anybody who would accept this video as proof of what the poster of the video says only shows his or her gullibility.

Gee, I wonder if the poster---and anybody who believes it--is left of center.

Do leftists ever do research?    Sometimes it seems unlikely they do.

They are great at smearing.    Not so wonderful at anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 11 - 01:23 PM

Looking at this from a UK perspective, when we were interning our subjects without trial, torturing them, financing assasination squads and shooting protesters in cold blood,only a few years ago....I dont remember anyone being called to account, or charges of crimes against humanity brought.

If this situation were to arise again tommorow, would NATO feel oliged to kill our Prime Minister, sink our navy and engagfe in mass slaughter of our troops?.....I think not.

Attack helicopters are being readied to kill Col Gadaffis troops wherever they can be found ......Regime change, simple and as illegal as hell.

When you see the results of the coming election in Egypt, come back and tell me this is "all about democracy"

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 24 May 11 - 03:14 PM

Video clip posted by MGOH does not look anything like a strike using "Cluster" Bombs.

It does look like a small initial single explosion that then causes sympathetic detonation - It all comes out from one point and blossoms - A typical pattern for "cluster" munitions is simultaneous over a wider spread, the "bomblets" being released and spread from the bomb or shell carrying them.

The version of this being an ammunition store cooking off fits the visual evidence in Kevin's link.

Akenaton tell me where I get this order of events wrong:

1. Libyan protesters take to the streets

2. Gaddafi calls in the army and orders them to shoot

3. Sections of the Libyan Armed Forces refuse to fire on unarmed civilians

4. Gaddafi brings in foreign mercenaries to shoot those protesting

5. Sections of the Libyan Armed Forces desert, the protesters raid Government armouries and arm themselves in order to defend themselves from atack.

6. Gaddafi vows to destroy Benghazi, stating clearly that the people will pay a price in blood for their actions

7. Arab League appeals to the UN to act.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 11 - 04:28 PM

That may be your interpretation of events T.

I dont necessarily accept everything I am fed by our military or government, whereas the events in Derry were there for all to see.

Who says G personally ordered the army to shoot? Who ordered 2 Para to shoot?

2,3,4,5 Hearsay!

6 Untrue...G vows to hunt down the "criminal insurgents" in "streets, houses or wardrobes"......not "destroy Benghazi"
7 The Arab league is a joke, led by corrupt quislings.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:29 PM

akenaton-

There are times when the difference in philosophy or political perspective is too wide to bridge. So we're never going to agree on anything having to do with Libya, and the funny thing is that even if I'm totally wrong in my assumptions we still wouldn't agree!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:42 AM

Our actions in Iraq....Basically US/UK with a few stragglers, led arguably to the deaths of hundreds of thousands.....we walk away with our "hands clean", yet Col Gadaffi and his supporters have to be blown to pieces because of the way he finds it necessary to keep order in a tribal land.....A negotiated solution will no longer suffice,he and his supporters must be killed just as Saddam had to be killed.....and we think WE do not evoke tribalism?

We make the old mistake of trying to export our form of democracy...which is simply a tool of political manipulation, into the minds of children and dreamers.
The endgame will be what we now see in Iraq....a lawless corrupt state ruled by mad clerics, with no decent infrastructure and the violent suppression of women.

We seem to be doing everything that we should not be doing in the Middle East and North Africa.

Observe how Chinese influence is achieved.... by helping underdeveloped nations to become productive, not by turning them into war blasted wastelands!

"None so blind".....etc etc

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 04:24 AM

As far as I'm concerned, the President committed an impeachable offense, going to war, without going to Congress, and going against the 'War Powers' act......but then, the international bankers made him do it!...you know, those guys he keeps bailing out, and giving away OUR tax money to....under the guise of bailouts, interest on the loans, and anything else they can dream up, to line their pockets with!!!
Its so much bullshit!
The 'Left' or the 'Right' is just YOUR dream....WAKE UP!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 08:29 AM

>...our form of democracy...is simply a tool of political manipulation...

It is, however, the least manipulative tool yet developed.

On the other hand, autocrats like G don't need to "manipulate." They routinely use murder and extortion because that's the highest form of morality they know.

The Chinese method...it's coming back to me now...the Cultural Revolution and the slaughter of millions.

But at least it wasn't "manipulative."

By way of contrast, I'll repeat what I said earlier: after four years of bloody Civil War, the liberal U.S. Government did not find it necessary to impose mass executions or even prison sentences on its enemies. Those enemies, despite their unconscionable support of slavery, were sufficiently democratic and non-"tribal" to refrain from launching decades of guerrilla (not to mention terrorist)warfare.

I'm sure Chairman Mao, brainiac of the Cultural Revolution, had a different interpretation of these events.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 May 11 - 11:38 AM

I would agree that George W. Bush's invasion of Iraq was ill-advised, adventuristic, unsupported by any world body, and had a terrible cost in terms of loss of Iraqi life, loss of life and wounded among our own soldiers and those of a few allies ("The Coalition of the Willing"), and the monetary costs have almost bankrupted our economy.

I don't view the strategy in Libya in the same way;

There was a clear threat to the civilians in Rebel-held areas
There was initial support from the Arab League
There was support from the UN
There was action via NATO
There are no NATO troops on the ground.
Civilian casualties in Gahdafi-held areas have been surprisingly few

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 12:14 PM

Lighter.....China today and China under Chairman Mao, are two different places.

The REAL question is, would China today be the fastest growing economy in the world and the most influential in the third world, if Mao had never existed?
There is a man for all seasons....and who will be the West's man for the raging winter which has yet to come?

Charley.....get a grip, why is Assad being allowed to slaughter protesters with hardly a whimper from the West?

Why no vocal support for the protest movements in Saudi, Syria, Bahrain?

Three guesses
1.....Because "our monsters" control these countries and it is not in our interests to have these monsters removed.....its called hypocrisy!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 11 - 12:17 PM

Akenaton

1. "The protests, unrest and confrontations began in earnest on 15 February 2011. On the evening of 15 February, between 500 and 600 demonstrators protested in front of the police headquarters in Benghazi after the arrest of human rights lawyer Fathi Terbil. The protest was broken up violently by police, resulting in 38 injured"

2. "The protests continued the following day in Benghazi, Darnah and Al Bayda. Libyan security responded with lethal force. Four demonstrators were killed and three wounded." - Source Al-Jazeera report dated 16th February, 2011

3. "A "Day of Rage" in Libya and by Libyans in exile was planned for 17 February. The National Conference for the Libyan Opposition asked that all groups opposed to the Gaddafi regime protests on 17 February, in memory of demonstrations in Benghazi five years earlier. The plans to protest were inspired by the 2010–2011 Tunisian and Egyptian uprisings. Protests took place in Benghazi, Ajdabiya, Darnah, Az Zintan, and Al Bayda. Libyan security forces fired live ammunition into the protests, including .50 caliber sniper ammunition. Some of the gunfire came from helicopters." - Sources, Asharq Al-Awsat; Al-Jezeera & Malta Today

4. "Gaddafi referred to the protesters as "cockroaches" and "rats", and vowed not to step down and to cleanse Libya house by house until the insurrection was crushed. Gaddafi declared that people who don't "love" him "do not deserve to live" - Sources, Haaretz; Daily Telegraph; The Times of Malta; Al Arabiya.

5. "Soon after Gaddafi's government started to use force against demonstrators, it became apparent that some Libyan military units refused to shoot protesters, and Gaddafi had hired foreign mercenaries to do the job. Gaddafi's ambassador to India Ali al-Essawi confirmed that the defections of military units had indeed led to such a decision." Source The jamestown Foundation and as stated in passage quoted (Libyan Ambassador to India)

Not much hearsay at all Akenaton, Tell me who else in Libya would order the Libyan Armed Forces to fire on the protesters as they undoubtedly did? Care to tell us how many of Gaddafi's sons command the elite elements of the Libyan Armed Forces?

A thoroughly evil man who declared war on his own people, the sooner he is done away with the better for all concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 01:00 PM

Not exactly on topic, but related, and for some silly biased based reason no one started a thread about this, but, Benjamin Natanyahu's speeches to AIPAC, and the Congress, kicked butt!!...It was nice to see a LEADER, instead of the spin machine, for the international bankers, for a change!!..Someone even asked, "Are you sure YOU don't have a birth certificate in Hawaii?"
He blew Obama's shit out of the water...and BOTH sides of Congress acknowledged it, including that slime-sucker Reid!!...and getting 29 standing ovations from both parties...> Here's a c/p from ABC 'news':

Today, ABC News' Jonathan Karl described Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's speech to Congress as seeming like a "State of the Union address by a president with sky-high approval ratings" due in part to the numerous standing ovations the foreign leader received. This apparently gave Karl an idea. He went back and counted the number of applause breaks and compared it to the amount President Obama got during his last actual SOTU address. Guess who got more?

Oh. I guess the headline kind of gives the answer away. Oh well.

Yes, Netanyahu received 29 applause breaks compared to Obama's paltry 25. This proves one thing; going to these things must be exhausting. Up, down. Up, down. If they had a big address like this everyday, everyone in Congress would look like Aaron Schock.



From ABC News:

    "One of his biggest applause lines was aimed directly at President Obama.

    'Israel will not return to the indefensible boundaries of 1967,' Netanyahu said, prompting a big standing ovation.

    Later he added: 'Israel on the 1967 lines would be only 9 miles wide. So much for defensible borders.'"


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 01:18 PM

Akenaton:

So Mao's murderous policies were justified because China today has a fast-growing economy and no Bill of Rights?

George Washington and his friends did a better job. Again, no executions required.

GfS:
>One of his biggest applause lines was aimed directly at President Obama.

ABC News has fallen a long way. Obama said that the 1967 borders should provide the basis for negotiations. That means that the current borders are negotiable within reason.

If he'd said instead that the *current* borders should be the basis, that would imply that he wants a settlement very close to what exists now, and conceivably even more territory for Israel.

His choice of words was an olive branch to the Palestinians (or at least the ones who don't demand the destruction of Israel) and nothing more.

Once negotiations begin (if they do), both sides will demand whatever they want anyway. If nobody walks out, they keep talking. It's called "negotiating." Maybe they'll agree to something, maybe not.

Obama did not call in any way for a return to the 1967 borders. Read the speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 01:32 PM

lighter: "Obama did not call in any way for a return to the 1967 borders. Read the speech."

I watched it live, as well as both speeches by Natanyahu ..and there's one for the Senate as well, which I'll watch. The consensus is that our toy president did a lot of back-peddling, from the intentional vague 'trial balloon'. Obama substantially damaged his own self, and once again his credibility is plummeting after the nation got a chance to witness a true statesman perform! Natanyahu, kicked ass!
that being said, there are things about him that I'm not so sure about either...BUT, after Obama's stupid drivel, he MUST have known, this was going to be a cakewalk....and it was.
I believe from EVERY report that I've heard, or person I've talked to, about it, that it was SUPER refreshing to hear from someone who actually loved their country..more than their own personal self image!

GfS

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:07 PM

Netanyahu may have "kicked ass," as you put it, but it wasn't Obama's.

"Toy president." Whose toy? I'll ask Al Qaida.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:49 PM

Lighter....I justify nothing, I simply put up ideas for consideration.

BTW.....Todays America is far removed from George Washingtons America. Although they still pay lip service to a Bill of rights, in practice there is none.

As in all Americas satellites money talks.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:58 PM

To condense T's cut and paste .....from dubious sources, its because Gadaffi is "a bad man"..."deranged"..."a looney".....none of which is any of our business.

Our business should be dealing with our own "bad man" and "deranged looney" Mr Tony Blair.

But what have we done with him?.....made him Middle East peace envoy!
Its like putting the wolf in charge of the sheep!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 11 - 03:59 PM

Lighter.....China today and China under Chairman Mao, are two different places.

The REAL question is, would China today be the fastest growing economy in the world and the most influential in the third world, if Mao had never existed?" - Akenaton

It would probably have got there about forty years ago and there would definitely have been an extra 70 million odd people who would have lived to enjoy that transformation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 04:20 PM

>Todays America is far removed from George Washingtons America. Although they still pay lip service to a Bill of rights, in practice there is none.

Far removed indeed, but not in the ways of due process under the law. Since the abolition of slavery and segregation, the system has clearly improved.

And would you explain your statement about the Bill of Rights? (They don't have one in Libya or China - to give two non-controversial examples.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:22 PM

"It would probably have got there about forty years ago and there would definitely have been an extra 70 million odd people who would have lived to enjoy that transformation."

Wrong Teribus, it would probably be in terminal decline like all of the other imperialist, capitalist empires!

Lighter....does their love of liberty and equality extend to the people of other nations, Vietnam and Iraq springing immediately to mind?.....or is death another definition of "freedom"?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:33 PM

Charley...It matters little whether we agree or not, we can discuss these matters with civility, that is a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:38 PM

So the modern day "Peoples" Republic of China is NOT Capitalist??

Strange that, because while they were all good communists they were as poor as church mice and starving for the most part.

"Peoples" Republic?? Of course the "people" saw damn all of the rewards they were all the sole reserve of the "animals who were more equal than others" i.e. those selected to be "honoured" as members of the "Party".

The only Empire I have seen collapse in my lifetime Akenaton is the Communist one.

India is in terminal decline is it Akenaton?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:42 PM

>does their love of liberty and equality extend to the people of other nations, Vietnam and Iraq springing immediately to mind?.....or is death another definition of "freedom"?

The question was about the Bill of Rights, inviolate (if occasionally battered) since 1789.

Without it, there'd be no discussion about what sort of trials - civil or military - Guantanamo prisoners deserve. They'd simply be hanged, which some Americans would prefer.

Nobody in authority (much less the head of state) has seriously suggested that any prisoners, even dangerous enemies of the nation, be summarily executed.

Because in U.S. custody they have rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 11 - 01:08 AM

Ah Akenaton "Sources" are only dubious when they happen to disagree with your version of events are they?

Eye-witness accounts?

Civilian casualties being treated in hospitals did what? Shoot themselves?

Bodies of civilian protesters on the streets that had to be buried were what? Bodies dug up or removed from mortuaries and arranged as required?

Defecting soldiers, political allies and Government ministers and appointees are ALL lying?

And the daft thing is he (Gaddafi) has done all this before during his 40 year reign.

Stick your head back in the sand Akenaton and sing a couple of verses of "The Internationale", then you'll feel better.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 05:32 AM

Maybe this is why the British Royal Air Force has been missing a hell of a lot of it's intended targets !

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1390818/Libya-pilots-inappropriate-behaviour-Two-RAF-airmen-flown-home-drunk.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 11 - 07:25 AM

India too will decline in time Teribus, decline is built into the system.

By then of course we shall have aquired the status of a third world country and the wheel shall be back on the rise.
That is, excluding any catastrophic wars engineered by desperate capitalists to protect their precious system.

Then we shall see how much life and liberty means to our leaders
Col Gadaffi will look like the Christmas Fairy in comparison.

BTW Teribus, although I used to be a member of the Communist Party, I now realise that a lifetime of work in the "common good" without any sense of personal fulfillment, is as unsustainable as Capitalism itself.

The difference Teribus, is that I can see beyond any ideology whereas you are stuck in a time warp when people still believed the lie that Capitalism would be capable of providing for modern society.
Get your head out of the mire and recognise what is happening to your Empire......

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 08:23 AM

That 5:32 a.m. post was not from me but from some impersonator.

I am no longer a "GUEST."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 11 - 09:42 AM

Well Akenaton the track records of Capitalism and Communist Socialism illustrate that while the former is flexible and capable of infinite adaptation to fulfil the needs and requirements of the society it serves the latter is not, nor will it ever be capable of doing so.

How many times now have you tolled "Capitalism's" death knell? How many times have you been wrong?

Gaddafi's days are over, sooner the better as far as I am concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 May 11 - 12:46 PM

Teribus: "The only Empire I have seen collapse in my lifetime Akenaton is the Communist one."

Stay tuned..and you can watch ours collapse as well!.....- because we are but pretty much, adopting their same policies!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 01:50 PM

Do you mean labor camps? A one-party system? Government-run media? Show trials? Abolition of religion and closing of houses of worship? Imprisonment for criticizing the government? The entire economy run by a few clueless officials? Government permission needed to travel from city to city? Limited or no due process of law? Enforced collectivization of agriculture and industry? Oligarchy? No news but official propaganda? Extensive secret police network? Abolition of free enterprise? Food lines? Years-long waiting lists for vacations, apartments, etc.? Truly rotten public services? Minorities shipped to arbitrarily identified "autonomous (but really not)regions"? Declared interests of the state always put ahead of the individual? All art, music, and literary criticism based on the doctrines of nineteenth-century economists Marx & Engels? Parliament of yes-men? The official encyclopedia of world knowledge constantly revised by the government to fit the latest propaganda view - with all mention of certain important historical figures deleted for being too controversial to know about? Rigged elections? Threats and brute force used to quash all political dissent?

Not much similarity that I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 11 - 02:11 PM

How is our Capitalist system adjusting and adapting T?

By robbing the poor and giving to the rich?

The bail out of the capitalist system was a disgrace, quite simply robbery, to save a system which is bound to fail again.

Capitalism has many moral faults T, but it's biggest fault is that it is ultimately unable to sustain itself.

If the people are to be used as consumers, they must be given the means to buy consumables and be kept reasonably healthy.

Unfortunately we no longer vable to compete on the sloping pitch created by global capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 May 11 - 04:51 PM

Meanwhile back on the ranch:

UK and France to deploy 16 gunships for Libya

By George Parker in Deauville
Published: May 26 2011 20:06 | Last updated: May 26 2011 20:06

"France and Britain are putting 16 ground attack helicopters on standby to launch attacks on Muammer Gaddafi's regime in Libya amid claims in the west that his grip on power is weakening.

France has sent 12 Tiger and Gazelle helicopters on the carrier Tonnerre while British officials said on Thursday that David Cameron, UK prime minister, had signed off on the deployment of four Apache aircraft."

Evidently NATO is adding to their military options in an attempt to increase the pressure on Gadhafi to run to Venezuela.

Charley Noble

EDITOR'S CHOICE
Arab democracies win G8 aid pledge - May-26

Global insight: Rulers' fate hangs on militaries - May-26

Hundreds flee Yemeni capital as 40 more die - May-26

Tunisia tensions focus on 'British Gas' plant - May-26

Worried tourists turn backs on Egypt - May-26

In depth: Middle East protests - May-16

The Apaches, aboard HMS Ocean in the Mediterranean, would be operational within days, with an expectation that Nato could send them into action soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 11 - 07:13 PM

Hmmm....helicopter gunships to protect civilians.....Shurely shome mishtake!

Just watched the Question Time audience in Exeter sit in stoney silence, while an assortment of political puppets attempted to make a case for what is happening in Libya.
Their case basically amounted to "but there may have been a massacre of civilians"...they then misquoted Col Gadaffi in the same way that some posters here have done.
There was a huge cheer for the audience member who said that difference between our treatment of Libya, Syria, or Bahrain was OIL, not democracy or human rights.

"BTW Teribus, although I used to be a member of the Communist Party, I now realise that a lifetime of work in the "common good" without any sense of personal fulfillment, is as unsustainable as Capitalism itself."
I think I had better explain that point, by "personal fulfillment" I do not mean the accumulation of personal wealth.
Most of the really rich people I have encountered are the least personally fulfilled.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 08:05 PM

How does interfering with Gaddafi's long established and dependable oil exportations help the greedy capitalists who are supposedly running the show?

I've been asking this question since the beginning, but no one seems to have an answer. All they "know" is that "it's about the oil!" Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 May 11 - 09:04 PM

Gaddafi might have stayed in power with the support of the international community if he had waited out the peaceful protests, or even made some minor concessions. But he didn't. He decided that a military response was called for to suppress peaceful protest, backed up with unleashing his secret police to kidnap, interrogate and torture the protest leaders.

So it goes.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 May 11 - 09:14 PM

Because, Ake, helicopters can get much closer to the ground--and ensure, therefore that their fire is accurate.   So less danger to civilians.

There is of course more danger to the helicopters and their crews than to the crews of planes higher up.

So those against Western involvement in Libya can start right now with their "I told you so" whines for the--inevitable over time--casualties to Western military participants.



Which is why the US should jump back in fully--to shorten the time frame dramatically.

As I said earlier, time to lance this boil.

Particularly since the rebels are running low on funds.

And the US has not even recognized their provisional government--I gather because of complications in Congress.

Seems a pretty flimsy excuse to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 11 - 10:06 PM

I forgot something about State Socialism: the imposition of one's educational training and occupation by bureaucrats who have to meet a quota.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 11 - 07:38 AM

Lighter ....I did mention further up the thread, the fact that Col Gadaffi was about to tear up a multi billion oil rights contract with BP, shortly before the insurgency started.

I suppose we decided that it would be easier to use the insurgency as a pretext to kill or remove Col Gadaffi and his supporters than agree to the conditions required by his oil ministry.

Ex CIA man writes in todays Times on the "Arab Spring" and how we fail to understand the situation
"Mr Scheuer said that the cause of violent extremism was undimmed, despite claims that the Arab Spring demonstrated its rejection. "We in the West have come away from the Egypt experience thinking democracy is on the march there. I doubt it. We have listened to the folks who we agree with, and say the things we want to hear."

He said that US/UK foreign policy and Western intervention defined its relationship with the Muslim world. "There are almost 900 pages of primary sources on bin Laden — sermons, speeches, etc ... There is almost nothing in there about waging a war against the West for its freedoms or liberty or gender equality or drinking alcohol.

"It is support for Israel, support for the Saudi police state, it's our presence in the Arab peninsula, it's support for the Russians in the Islamic Caucuses.

"There is no more effective recruiter for al-Qaeda than the status quo of American foreign policy." Full article

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: Lighter
Date: 27 May 11 - 08:44 AM

>"We have listened to the folks who we agree with, and say the things we want to hear."

Yeas, but who doesn't?

It's true that OBL didn't care how much booze we drink in the West or how many women vote. And it's equally true that the claim that he attacked the West because he "hated our freedoms" is the truth dumbed down to caricature.

However, opposition to Israel, the Saudi regime, and the Western presence in Arabia, are just specific manifestations of what Al- Qaida really wants. (Even its opposition to the Russians seems based on the jihad mentality as much as on any political idealism.)

What Al-Qaida wants is a Muslim Caliphate in Eurasia and eventually everywhere. That's how they read the Koran, and they read it that way partly because they're angry, violent people - including some genuine sadists like OBL - looking for God's permission to express their own violent aggressions. The honest ones really think they're doing God's work by scourging the infidel. (You don't blow yourself up or crash into a skyscraper just because you're bored or perverse.)

There's no way to know whether Al-Qaida will wax or wane, or how often. Its declared enemies have to make whatever defensive choices they think will be most effective. And they can be wrong. That's life in the swamp.

The same principle goes for the outcome of the "Arab spring." There's no telling where it will go.

As for BP's oil deal with G, his threat to "tear it up" (if he made it) sound like a demand to renogotiate. Deals are renogotiated all the time. Why should he cut off his best customers? If oil had been the "real" issue, NATO would have attacked anyway, rebels or no rebels. Where's the evidence that an attack, with serious political risks in the Arab world, was even being planned? And if the rebels were the deciding factor, they were the deciding factor. That's good enough for me.

Complicated political events (like a NATO attack) don't stem from one or two reductionist causes like greedy capitalists *or* selfless idealism.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 11 - 08:46 AM

I note you fail to mention the avowed aim of militant Islam to impose it's religious law on the world as a cause of violent extremism.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 11 - 08:48 AM

My post was directed at Akenaton's previous post.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 11 - 12:02 PM

From Al Jazeera

"Russia has agreed to mediate the exit of Muammar Gaddafi, Libya's leader, after leaders at the Group of Eight (G8) meeting in France called on Russia to take the role.

Sergei Ryabkov, the Russian deputy foreign minister, told reporters on Friday that "Gaddafi has forfeited legitimacy" and that Russia is ready "to help him go".

Soon after, Mikhail Margelov, Moscow's special representative on Africa told reporters that his country is ready to negotiate Gaddafi's departure.

Margelov explained that Russia is in contact with Gaddafi's entourage, and that they are willing to negotiate Libyan leader's fate."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011
From: akenaton
Date: 27 May 11 - 01:12 PM

The "Band of Brothers"

What are they going to do with Saudi, Syria, Bahrain?

Fuck all thats what!