BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 May 01 - 11:24 PM

Here's the website for the alternative scouting org. I couldn't remember the name of; it should have a lot of answers to some of the questions raised: Scouting for All

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: DougR
Date: 31 May 01 - 11:39 PM

Other than that, Dave, do you have any specific opinions on the subject?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: toadfrog
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 01:41 AM

GUEST N.H. DAVE I do not know what the Boy Scouts are up to lately, but back when I was a member, they did have religious awards: The God and Country Award for Protestants and Ad Altare Dei for Catholics. Perhaps they changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: Trapper
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 11:29 AM

InOBU Wrote:

... the kids who committ suiside for fear of lack of acceptence, in my mind, trumps the kids need to have some fun concerns.

Larry, the thrust of my message was that Scouting, although fun (why would ANYBODY be trying THIS hard to get into it if it wasn't?!), is an organization that tries to help youth grow up to be well-adjusted and productive adults. Take Scouting away, and how many MORE youths will commit suicide, take drugs, fall into trouble with the law, etc.?

The old saw "Idle hands are the devil's workshop" definitely applies here, and Scouting, albeit imperfect politically, gives millions of those "idle hands" something positive, educational, and yes, FUN to do. "Boycotting all aspects of Boy Scouting" will, to my mind, only increase the number of troubled kids in the world.

Respect-

- Al

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: Melani
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 12:43 PM

The latest edition of the Sea Scout manual, which I am holding in my hand (it features one of our mates on the back cover, at the helm of a sailboat), lists the following "religious emblems": Etz Chaim (Jewish), Life and World (World Community (?)), God and Life (Episcopal), Living Faith (Lutheran), God and Life (Protestant), Pope Pius XII, and God and Life (Salvation Army). "The requirements and procedures for earning any one of the emblems illustrated here are available at your council service center."

From what I have heard in news reports, the BSA will come down heavy on dissenters if they go public. Although I don't remember the details, a couple of years ago I seem to recall a case of a longtime leader being kicked out for publically objecting to their nasty policies. Practical reality is another matter. The other adult leaders seem to have no problem with our gay mate when they need him, but if somebody got pissed off at him and reported him to higher-ups, he'd be out. I can think of at least two other adult leaders from other ships who I would not be surprised to learn were gay, though they are certainly in a deep, dark closet. It's the hypocrisy that annoys me.

But the other point is that Sea Scouts and Boy Scouts do give active young people something to do besides get in trouble. A great many of our guys go into the Navy, the Coast Guard, or Cal Maritime Academy, including at least one very talented sailor who otherwise might have ended up in very big trouble. He's now doing well in the Navy. And there is no other way for girls to sail in an organization this inexpensive--Mariner Scouts are ALL also Sea Scouts. The whole GS Safety Wise thing rather annoys me--since when is camping or swimming a "high risk" activity? They're probably in more danger crossing a San Francisco street to visit an old people's home, for which they do not have to have special permission.

As far as I can see, one major difference in the organizations is that Boy Scouts charge $60 per year and give you everything, including insurance for activities like swimming. Girl Scouts charge $7.00 per year and give you fund-raising tips, and REQUIRE that troops sell cookies. The thing I like best about Sea Scouts is that they don't sell anything. Oh, and scholarships are available for those who can't afford $60.

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: NH Dave
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 02:51 PM

More to my previous post . . .

Personally I wish the whole issue would die down, BSA would get our of the religious and sexual lives of their youth and leaders, and live and let live. Just a personal view.

As I said earlier, BSA does not RUN the religious award program, but has chopped it to the various faiths, so we now have more awards than Carters has little green pills[Carters was a patent medicine company who advertised their "Little Liver Pills" until the FDA showed that the pills had no effect on the liver at all and the FTC made them retract their "liver-benefit" claims. They sold for a long while under the above name, to the benefit of Carters.]. BSA DOES decide whose religious awards it will RECOGNISE, so the mainline religion faiths like Catholicism, Judaeism, Lutherans, etc., have religious awards that are recognised by the BSA while the UUA's awards are currently not recognised, and the Wicans never even got their foot into the door.

The trouble with the situation as it now stands is that there is so much bandwidth about the problem, that various more inclusive sponsors are telling BSA either let us accept whomever we want or get your program out of our organization; and Jesse Helms has sponsored an Congressional amendment proposing that schools who refuse to give BSA access - i.e. use their facilities - can have their federal funding yanked! WAAAAAY overkill.

For the BRitish among us, Jesse Helms is sort of like a secular Ian Paisley, or more properly the enthusiastic pro-Irish female MP, whose name currently escapes me.

Oh, yes. The up front BSA fee is $ 7.00 plus $ 0.80 for insurance, but after you buy uniforms, camping equipment, pay for summer camp and other outings, the cost gets upwards of $ 250 per year.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 09:05 PM

Nobody's mentioned The Woodcraft Folk.

I don't know if the Folk's song book still contains the Red Flag and the Internationale, but they've always been open to both girls and boys. I can't imagine the ideas of excluding people because they are gay or lesbian would even occur to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: toadfrog
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 10:57 PM

While digging around on line for material on this, I ran into one site which remarked, that the difference between Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts was that the BSA was supported by the Mormon Church (I hadn't heard about that connection, but then I don't follow too closely) and GSA ran on cookie sales. It looks like the source of Girl Scout independence is the very poverty deplored above.

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Jun 01 - 01:46 AM

Hi Al
You say "is an organization that tries to help youth grow up to be well-adjusted and productive adults. Take Scouting away, and how many MORE youths will commit suicide, take drugs, fall into trouble with the law, etc.? "
Well, the point of liberal democracy (which in spite of liberal becoming a bad word, we still in principal are a liberal democracty)is that minorities are not sacrificed for the good of the majority. Once you begin to do that, none of us are secure enough in our insider position, to insure that by birth or happenstance, we may not someday be a member of the sacrificed outsider group. The fact is that including gay teens in scouting will not end gay suiside, excluding them, will add to the cultureal environment which leads to gay suiside. The fact that the mainstream majority needs scouting to produce well ajusted kids, well, that is the reason that marginalized folks need it as well. If the majority mainstream can't get by without it, well tough, share it or loose it.
best to all,
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: NH Dave
Date: 02 Jun 01 - 10:58 AM

the BSA was supported by the Mormon Church

The LDS faith uses a slightly modified version of Boy Scouting as its youth program for the young men of its congregations . . . unfortunately they don't offer a similar opportunity for their young women.

The LDS program makes up either the second or third largest area of the BSA program depending on if you are countin total youth or total units. I seem to remember that the Methodists are at the top, with the Catholic Church coming in second or third, same caveats as above.

Larry, that's about how I feel currently.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 01 - 09:07 PM

Here's one I found on the links page of that Woodcraft Folk site I gave earlier - The Boys and Girls Club of the Northern Cheyenne Nation, with whom they are affiliated.

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: Trapper
Date: 05 Jun 01 - 11:12 AM

InOBU said:

...If the majority mainstream can't get by without it, well tough, share it or loose it.

Larry-

You will note that in none of my posts have I ever defended the BSA's position of gays in Scouts. I agree with you that "marginalized" kids need Scouting every bit as much as the "mainstream majority", and that we can't sacrifice the minority for the sake of the majority. All I've ever said is don't punish the kids. Scouting is not perfect, but neither do I think it is so bad we should scrap it altogether. Let's work to CHANGE it, so that it meets the needs of our times.

To "lose it" completely seems to me to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

- Al

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 05 Jun 01 - 12:22 PM

Wow, I've only just read this thread. I hadn't realised some of these issues had been raised. I take a Girl Scout pack (except they're called Guides in the UK). The Guide Association here is very into including everyone - except males - into their units. They changed many aspects of their system to do so - which I think is great. For instance, when the girls were enrolled to the pack and chose to make their Promise, they used to promise to "Do my duty to God". That has now been changed to "Love my God", with an emphasis on the religious diversity. I still don't feel this is enough - it's not a promise I would make, and I've made it clear that if, as a leader, I am required to do so, I'll leave. Nor am I terribly happy about other aspects, but I love working with the girls and am glad to give my time.
The issue of sexual orientation has never arisen through any of the training I've recieved. I'm going to check on that, though I do imagine that like the Girl Scouts, UK Guiding is inclusive.
Just as a final dig - I'm not sure what it's like in the States, but over here Girl Guide leaders seem to receive more training and stricter safety guidelines than the Boy Scouts, which is why it always seems to be Boy Scout expeditions going wrong and young kids falling off mountains...

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 05 Jun 01 - 01:58 PM

Well, Fibula, you're probably right about training, they never gave me any, but so far we haven't lost anyone overboard. Our ship has safety training as part of sail training, of course. The problem I have with the GS Safety Wise stuff is a niggling feeling that girls are being protected more than boys, just because they are girls. I spent my whole life being told, "Girls can't do that," starting in 4th grade (age 9 for you Brits) when I wanted to take a course in how to run the school's movie projectors. Another reason Boy Scouts are always falling off mountains and such is that they are boys. Our Junior Girl Scouts once took an orienteering course where the instructor told us he preferred working with Girl Scouts to Boy Scouts, because the boys would ignore the instructions and run out whooping and hollering, and screw up the course and lose the path. The girls would listen quietly, follow the instructions, and sucessfully finish the course. In Sea Scouts, we have a number of "capsize stories" from the boys' ship, but very few from the girls. That's just what happens when you put a bunch of teenage boys in a sailboat. We try to teach them to do it right, of course, but there's always some clown who wants to take risks.

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: Trapper
Date: 05 Jun 01 - 04:57 PM

Fibula, Melanie -

Besides being a Red Cross certified Water Safety Instructor and Lifeguard Training Instructor, I also am the advisor for a Venture Crew that specializes in Swimming Instruction. We teach between 3-400 students (Scouts and siblings) each winter, all volunteer.

Anyway, regarding Boy Scout training - with regards to Aquatic training, it is a REQUIREMENT that each Unit planning any activity on or near the water train in and practice the "Eight Point Safe-Swim Defense Plan". This requires an adult leader of 21 or over be present for every 10 youth, a Lifeguard certified with either BSA Lifeguard or Red Cross Lifeguard, a Lookout (in a high place that can see the entire swimming area), Scouts swimming in "Buddy" pairs, a MARKED swimming area with clearly-defined ability areas, etc.

Any unit going on a "Float" trip (canoeing, sailing, etc.) requires that at least one of the adult leaders going on the trip be trained in "Safety Afloat", a program with boating rules similar to the Eight-Point defense plan above.

ALL Boy Scout trips require the filing of a Trip Plan with the local council, with EACH parent of the kids going on the trip getting a copy, as well as any Ranger station through which the unit will be passing. All BSA trips also require a physical exam for every participant, youth and adult alike, once every 3 years for anyone under 40, and annually for anyone over 40.

These are some of the OFFICIAL safety rules of the Boy Scouts. If a unit ignores them, or if they have not been made aware of them, then they are in violation of the BSA rules. There are many other Official Rules of the BSA, but I am most familiar with the aquatics-based ones.

With regard to Melani's quote... "...That's just what happens when you put a bunch of teenage boys in a sailboat..., that smacks vaguely of sexism in this extremely Politically Correct thread... but is probably true... LOL!

- Al

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 05 Jun 01 - 07:11 PM

Trapper--Our unit does follow all the guidelines you mentioned, as well as "two deep" adult leadership. The latter to this extent: I offered to spend "liberty day" on summer cruise with one of the girls who had to leave early, as I did. She is my neighbor, and my husband was coming for both of us. The other kids would not be back from their outing in time for her to go along with them. I was told I couldn't do that unless she was a family friend, since it violated the "two deep" leadership policy. The alternative was for her to spend her liberty time at the marina, since she couldn't go off by herself. Of course, she IS a family friend, but I am of the opinion that somebody who makes these rules has a really dirty mind. The impression I got from this conversation is that the policy is not a matter of physical safety (i.e., if one leader gets run over by a truck, there'll still be another one), but rather to prevent the kids from being molested.

Our council requires that we have a pilot (that is, someone who has passed the Sea Scout test to command the boat in question)on board any boat that leaves Aquatic Park Harbor, and that the boat must have passed a yearly Coast Guard inspection. Our male adult leaders are all pilots, but the other female mate and I are not. It's only recently, after nearly four years, that anyone has suggested I take any training. It certainly has not been required of me. We have both been useful primarily as female chaperones for outings, and for several years it was made clear to me that that was all I was supposed to do. I was even told at one time that parents were not welcome in Sea Scouts. That is not our current skipper's attitude (his daughter is a crewmember), and besides, my daughter has dropped out, so I am no longer the parent of a Sea Scout.

All in all, it has been a very weird experience. I always felt welcome as a Girl Scout leader, but I had to survive three years of crap from both kids and adults to finally feel welcome as a Sea Scout mate. If the Girl Scouts actually had a separate Mariner program, I'd be there is a minute, but the fact is that they don't, and I am stuck with BSA. So I will do my best to quietly foster the idea that their discriminatory policies suck--but of course I will have to do it quietly, so they don't kick me out. It just really burns me that an outfit that is supposed to be so "wholesome" advocates something as scummy as I feel these policies to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: MsMoon
Date: 05 Jun 01 - 10:32 PM

I can't stand idly by while there is tacit agreement that the Girl Scouts "don't do enough cool stuff." That is aboslute nonsense. I was a Girl Scout until I graduated from high school -- not so I could wear green and sell cookies, but because I joined a council-level troop that did nothing but backpacking trips -- week or two-week excursions on the Long Trail, in the Adirondacks,in the Catskills, and on the AT, among other places. Plenty of firebuilding, if you like that kind of thing. There are also Wider Opportunities, programs where girls from around the country meet together to participate in adventure travel/learning. If the local council doesn't do "cool stuff" it's up to the parents to start the cool stuff. Scouting can only be as good as its leaders.

The best thing about Girl Scouts to me has always been its forward-thinkingness and inclusivity. I know GSA will never buckle under a letter-writing campaign such as is described here; I'm not too worried.

Aas an educator, I don't recommend the Boy Scouts to most boys. For some it seems to be a wonderful thing; but I don't believe it's developmentally appropriate, or does much to encourage boys in any direction other than highly traditional, rigid modes of interaction.

They are two very different organizations.

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 06:04 AM

I totally agree with Timbrel! It depends on the pack you join as to whether or not you do cool stuff. When the Scouts in the UK decided to let girls join, there were a lot of children happy that they could go and do "boy stuff" with the Scouts. Fortunately we didn't lose any of our girls - they were already doing what was termed "boy stuff" - hiking, camping, survival etc, combined with cooking (they always love to eat), singing, gossiping (except we call it "our campfire") and discussing the plot lines of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer". The way I see it, I generally want to do the same things they do, and I'm lucky to have the opportunity to organise it with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 09:43 AM

Please wear your Lifejackets/Personal Floatation Devices whenever you are on a boat, on a wharf near the water. Gives people like me a better chance of saving a survivor, instead of recovering a body. Cold water kills quickly and even if you are an olympic swimmer, you cannot swim to stay afloat for long in cold water. (gay or straight people drown the same) Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: Melani
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 12:12 PM

Dave--everyone--adults and kids--is required to wear a PFD when in a boat. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 08:09 PM

Melani. Not everyone does though thats the trouble. You would be dismayed at the number of times Coastguards find the kids afloat, alive and wearing PFD's but the parents drowned. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: Marion
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 11:26 PM

Jezebel, Lord Baden Powell was married; actually his wife Lady Baden Powell founded the Girl Guides when she met some girls trying to join Scouts.

Not that it matters, but since you brought it up...

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: Melani
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 12:39 PM

Dave, we enforce that rule rigidly. A couple of years ago, two young mates managed to capsize a 30-foot sailing whaleboat (I missed that trip!) with eight people on board, all wearing PFD's. The only injury was to the boat's mast. They were all picked up by the Coast Guard within 15 minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 04:34 PM

If only others were as diligent as you Melani it would be great. Carry on the good work lass. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: Melani
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 02:31 PM

I have just heard a very interesting radio show. Anyone who is interested in the gay-atheist-BSA controversy, please go to scouts-honor.com and/or scoutingforall.org. Sorry I don't know how to make them blue. "Scout's Honor" is a documentary on the subject that will be broadcast on PBS soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Help Girl Scouts stay inclusive of all!
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jun 01 - 02:52 PM

Melani, thanks for that info. I had a clicky to scoutingforall up there, somwehere.:-)

Dave, thanks for the reminder. I don't know if these people didn't have their flotation devices on, but, already this year, we've lost 7 or 8 people who were fishing out at PATHFINDER RESERVOIR. The first batch got caught out in a nasty freak snowstorm with high winds which capsized their boat. The second batch was just this last week, when the water got choppy and their boat went under. The dogs and authorities are still searching for their bodies. It is damn sad and mostly unnecessary.

BTW, everyone, I've been telling my friend about this thread and she is delighted that we've had such a wonderful discussion. I asked her about the GS here and she said they do all of the stuff the boys do. I am glad to hear it because when my sisters and I were Scouts it seemed to me we thought nothing of camping, hiking, cooking out, etc. We did that as a family, too, but also as Scouts. Maybe it's because it was in the West, I don't know?

Thanks,

kat