BS: Home Education UK

Subject: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 06:47 AM

This is an attempt to discuss Home Education. Is it right? Should it be allowed? What regulations should be in place? How does it affect you as a parent? Are you a parent who does Home Education and how does it affect you?

Please try not to flame or swear. Put your points calmly and with respect for other people, no matter what their viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:04 AM

I've met a few parents involved in this over the years. Without exception they were all neurotic obsessional cranks, and the idea of allowing anybody that weird to have total control over a child's experiential environment gave me the willies.

If the kid goes to school, at least you can expect bungling teachers and bungling parents to bungle in different ways and cancel each other out.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:05 AM

I think it's an excellent idea, BUT. There should be set textbooks that all parents should use. In this way a child's progress can be examined by inspectors, and their progress assessed.
The reasons for home education are many, from geographical isolation making travel to school long and difficult, to keeping severely bullied children out of an hostile environment.
In all cases, care should be taken to ensure the child develops social skills, and is allowed, nay required, to have social interaction with their peers.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:11 AM

I'm with Jack. The majority of home educators I have met have had what one could politely call 'issues', and their offspring have found it difficult to re-enter the educational mainstream for higher education.
Of course there are exceptions, and I have met some very successful people who have been home-schooled, but the majority seem to emerge as the victims of a half-arsed experiment by their parents. As John says, there needs to be a proper framework to ensure that the kids are being properly educated. And not, as in one case I know, of having 12-year-olds taught history by having them colour in pictures of knights in armour and pick what they want to watch on American K-12 websites.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:18 AM

My daughter's partner is a home-schooled person, it was simply what his mother - a trained teacher - wanted to do with her children.

I think it is dangerous to generalise from the particular, but I would like to know what home educators believe is the optimum age for allowing people back into mainstream education. If ever of course.

And what would the key indicators be that the right time has arrived?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: vectis
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:19 AM

I met some travellers in New Zealand who educated their children at home. The government provides them with the materials for all their formal schooling which is posted to the parents and returned by the parents for marking when completed. The parents are paid to ensure the work gets done.

One woman had raised 5 children in this way and four had gone on to college or Uni and she was rightly proud of their achievements. the fifth was still travelling with mum and hadn't yet finished her education but was expected to go on to higher education like the others.

If the Kiwi's and Australians (via bush radio) can organise schooling for at home and traveller kids why can't other countries?

In the UK travelling children really lose out and it is a national disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:23 AM

I personally think that any parents who partake in Home Education, should be made to follow a curriculum and there should be a means of checking that the requirements are being met.
I do not have any issues with regard to the parents having to have a CRB.

Not everybody is cranky, although a parent could be made to seem as though they are cranky, when their child is being bullied and it is not stamped out. If that ever happens to my special needs daughter, I will have no hesitation in carrying out Home Education and be open to CRB checks and help and guidance in supporting the education.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:34 AM

.Main Stream Education', for all you patronising people out there...is LIFE.

And your Education begins when you have LEFT school, not when you are incarcerated inside it....

Thank oooo.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:40 AM

"To home-educate children in the UK, one does not need a teaching qualification nor any specialist equipment and whilst some families follow a routine for learning, others do not.

There are families known to their LEA as home-educators and there are others that are not (Muckle 1997).

Currently, families home-educating children in England and Wales who have never been to school, are under no obligation to inform anyone

Whilst the school option involves formal assessment and inspection, the 'otherwise' alternative involves neither in any legislative form.

'LEAs, however, have no automatic right of access to the parent's home. Parents may refuse a meeting in the home, if they can offer an alternative way of demonstrating that they are providing a suitable education, for example, through showing examples of work and agreeing to a meeting at another venue.'

DfEE (1998a, point 4)" *


It appears to be particularly this last reccommendation of the Badman report that assessment and inspection of home schooling provision be more formalized, including the option of inspectors meeting with the children themselves, that has caused consternation and extremely angry responses amongst home educators who equate this with their children being perceived 'at risk'

A situation that was provoked by an NSPCC (an independent Childrens charity) policy adviser who during an interview unwisely made an inaccurate observation about a high profile child abuse case -

"Some people use home education to hide. Look at the Victoria Climbié case. No one asked where she was at school. We have no view about home education, but we do know that to find out about abuse someone has to know about the child."

This was immediately made a political issue by a UKIP MEP who demanded his resignation and claimed the NSPCC's "job is to vilify decent parents." advocating complete 'freedom' for parents.


*a description of the current situation by Dr Paula Rothermel C. Psychol. FRSA

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: maeve
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:46 AM

The majority of home school students and families with whom I've had the pleasure of working here (in Maine and New Hampshire) have been healthy, responsible, and productively involved in their communities. As an educator, tutor, librarian, and story hour presenter, I have observed a real dedication to and effective use of both state mandated and family generated materials.

When a family is equipped to handle the challenges involved in meeting State standards while focusing on the needs and interests of teach child, the quality, integration, and depth of learning is meaningful and life long. Such students are fortunate to have such a wealth of learning opportunities, and according to the North American studies I've seen, are more likely to do well in tech schools, college, work, and in social interactions when compared to conventionally educated students.

In my opinion and based on my experience, the best education results when schools and homeschooling families work together to ensure an excellent education for every child; something that is currently lacking in most communities I have known. Homeschooling, like other educational options, in not the best choice for every child (or every adult).

When I see how poorly-conceived testing has taken the place of excellent teaching and learning in so many schools here and in the UK, my personal choice would be to keep my children as far from most schools as possible. Your mileage may vary.

maeve

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:46 AM

Well, lots of good old prejudice flying around here. Huge numbers, not just a handful of cranks and religious fanatics, opt for home education and different degrees of flexi-schooling.They do so for al sorts of reasons, but too opften because their beloved children were not flourishing in the school environment, were often bullied or picked on because of a disability or difference, and came alive with a well thought out and guided programme of exploration in the real world.
   School is a necessary evil for society, it can never provide a natural and authentic learning environment. pwerhaps sceptics would benefit from reading some John Holt or John Taylor Gatto.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 08:00 AM

maeve brings a US perspective on this discussion which might be worth expanding a little

In America home schooling regulations vary widely from state to state.

Alaska, for example, has virtually no oversight of home schooling; parents do not even have to notify the state officials that their children are being home-schooled. - similar to the current situation in the UK where a child has never attended school

Most states however have some form of registration for home-schooled children and some requirements for what the child must be taught.

Some rescind the right to be home-schooled if a student does not reach a certain score on standardized tests.

For example, New York, which has some of the strictest laws, requires that parents teach a wide range of subjects (including substance abuse and traffic safety) and file quarterly reports to ensure that progress is being made. Furthermore, if the student scores in the bottom third of a standardized test, the state has the right to force the student into public school.

In freedom loving California, parents are now only allowed to home-school their children by filing as a private school and enrolling only their children.
Rachel F. Moran of the University of California, Berkeley, argued that regulation was necessary to protect children. "We want parents to have the freedom to homeschool, but we don't want children to become captives in a homeschool that doesn't prepare them for work or civic engagement as a functioning adult," she said.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 08:06 AM

An education is only as good as the teacher. A good teacher, be it in a school or at home, is priceless, but for home educators the potential pool of inspiring teachers is rather small. And, sadly, I have met quite a few rather dim people who don't seem to realise that education is a full-time occupation and not simply a matter of plonking the kids in front of the PC or TV while they get on with other things. In my view, if you couldn't cut the mustard in a classroom you shouldn't be teaching at home.
The sort of attitude shown by the reaction to the NSPCC's comment is one that I've come across here in West Wales (where home education is very common among counter-cultural types, downsizers and would-be hippes) - a lot of parents seem to be paranoid about any LEA or social services involvement.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 08:12 AM

Tug, I love you! :0) x

Maeve, I love you, too! :0) x

Glory Halleluliah!!!

And YES, read John Taylor Gatto and John Holt....then go into many of our secondary schools and see what is happening, not just in inner city schools either....

Our kids, as a nation, need love! They do not need any more effing bloody edukashon.....It's driving a vast amount of them to the brinks of suicide!

And yes, the numbers of children who are being removed from school by their parents and home-schooled, is rocketing..and THAT is another reason why 'they' are now trying to stop it all, making it harder and harder and harder to do.

Sod 'em and all who support 'em!

NEVER before have our children NOT wanted to learn as they do not want to learn at present. NEVER before has our young population been so dumbed down, so controlled, so apathetic.....and it's happening because, from the moment of their birth, they are put on that Conveyer Belt of Life, *by their parents*...

We have abused Motherhood. We have removed Femininity. We have stolen the parents from the children and stuck them inside Factory Farms of Edukashon, some so big that the teachers don't even know the names of the children.

Children go to school with knives, to protect themselves! They live their lives in hostile situations, 5 days a week, whilst having to learn things they hate! They get detention, ridicule, told off, humiliated, verbally abused, bullied, kicked....on and on .....and what do 'the parents' say?

"Oh, school has always been like that. That's life, that's the way it is and you have to toughen up, kid!"

So the kids toughened up, and they toughened out. They've lost compassion, kindness, sweetness....They buy books of the best 'put downs' to humiliate each other, they are cruel and rude and cranky...

But most of all, MOST of all, they are deeply, DEEPLY unhappy!

I would take on any teacher, at any teacher's conference, Dave, if you're out there, willingly! I would talk, if necessary rant and rage, to any politician, any TV presenter, anyone from within the Edukashun System itself...and I would do so willingly, because I know, from my own kids, from my friends' kids how disturbingly unhappy many, many children now are.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 08:24 AM

By taking a child out of school you are, effectively, removing him or her from the education system for the rest of life, with all that that implies. Even if you are a qualified teacher you will not be able to give the in-depth teaching needed in secondary education. The education system may not be perfect but must surely be better than leaving a child at the mercy of one or two opinionated and, perhaps, neurotic parents who are convinced that they know best and, almost invariably, don't - and who will simply be instilling their prejudices into their offspring without giving them the opportunity to form a balanced view, based on their own experiences.

Being part of the education system gives children a far broader, more varied and certainly more balanced education than they can possible ever hope to achieve at home, exposing them to views and activities away from the narrow spectrum of their parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:17 AM

"But most of all, MOST of all, they are deeply, DEEPLY unhappy!"

Lizzie, I know you have had this experience and I sypathise with you, but it is certainly NOT the norm.

Most children in my experience, and the experience of mrsleveller who is an education professional and works with a wide range of schools, often in deprived areas, is that, IF THEIR PARENTS HAVE THE RIGHT ATTITUDE, they have a good experience of school. All my 4 children have enjoyed school and, when my elder daughter was unable to attend for 2 years due to ME, the school went out of its way to help.

"They get detention, ridicule, told off, humiliated, verbally abused, bullied, kicked...."

I simply don't believe that this happens nowadays. Any school where it did would certainly quickly fall foul of OFSTED.

The scenario you paint, whilst serving to make the point of what happened in your isolated case, does not, in any way, represent the true state of education in the UK today.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:19 AM

"By taking a child out of school you are, effectively, removing him or her from the education system for the rest of life, with all that that implies."


No, levels, it is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE!   You could not be MORE wrong. A child will learn what they love to learn. A child will learn at their own pace, their natural pace.

School is the most unnatural system ever devised...and most people have been so indoctrinated into it, that they will never think outside the box.

I have no boxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:27 AM

It's a lovely theory, but it comes unstuck when you get to university entry.
Cambridge and, for all I know, Oxford, will sometimes interview a home-educated applicant if they can be persuaded that the applicant is up to scratch, but that is as rare as rocking-horse crap - and in the wider university marketplace the only place where I know that happens is with mature students, and they have to undertake at least a foundation course to prove they can hack a degree-level course.
Thus the home educated child is effectively disbarred from tertiary education.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:43 AM

"No, levels, it is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE!   You could not be MORE wrong. A child will learn what they love to learn."

Well, you know I'm going to disagree with you there. There are things that we NEED to know and these have to be taught even where there is a disinclination to learn them. That is the skill of a good teacher. Giving a child a well-rounded education gives them new insights and provides the tools they need to follow whatever course they later choose, having been able to sort through the options available. Someone who want to be a bricklayer must first learn to mix cement, cut bricks, use a spirit-level etc. no matter if these don't seem attractive. The end will well justify the means.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:18 AM

In the 1970s Raymond S. and Dorothy N. Moore conducted four federally funded analyses of more than 8,000 early childhood studies, from which they published their original findings in Better Late Than Early, which concluded that, "where possible, children should be withheld from formal schooling until at least ages eight to ten."

According to the Moores their analysis suggested that children need
"more free exploration with... parents, and fewer limits of classroom and books," and
"more old fashioned chores – children working with parents – and less attention to rivalry sports and amusements."

However they only advocated a later start to formal schooling which they felt "encourages peer dependence"

In contrast Rob Reich wrote in The Civic Perils of Homeschooling (2002) that homeschooling can potentially give students a one-sided point of view, as their parents may, even unwittingly, block or diminish all points of view but their own in teaching.
He also argues that homeschooling, by reducing students' contact with peers, reduces their sense of civic engagement with their community.

As many children in America are educated at home for religious reasons (the last census stated over a third) other arguments against have included -

Lack of socialization with peers of different ethnic and religious backgrounds;

The potential for development of religious or social extremism;

Children sheltered from mainstream society, or denied opportunities that are their right, such as social development;

Potential for development of parallel societies that do not fit into standards of citizenship and the community. (as demonstrated in some of the more isolated 'cults')

Of course registration and effective monitoring, as carried out in other European counties where home schooling is legal,* should be able to recognize where education becomes 'indoctrination' in race hatred for example.

*Homeschooling is illegal in Germany (with rare exceptions).
'Generally Illegal' in Spain, the Netherlands and Sweden.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:18 AM

To put it another way, you may have reservations about the NHS but you wouldn't remove your child's appendix on the kitchen table.

Would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Acorn4
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 10:27 AM

Although I've now retired from teaching, I still get the government "propaganda" magazine published by the GTC through my letterbox.

In this months there is a feature about someone who has set himself up as a "laughter facilitator", teaching children and teachers how to laugh.

One of the things I noticed in the last years I was teaching was that a sense of humour was no longer to be found in the staffrooms, due to the fact that everyone was breathing down each others necks. The climate of fear can be doing neither children or teachers any good.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:13 AM

I would take on any teacher, at any teacher's conference, Dave, if you're out there, willingly! I would talk, if necessary rant and rage, to any politician, any TV presenter, anyone from within the Edukashun System itself...and I would do so willingly, because I know, from my own kids, from my friends' kids how disturbingly unhappy many, many children now are.

No you wouldn't Lizzie. You'd be too busy organising the folk festival you promised to organise a couple of weeks ago and the march you promised to organise a couple of days ago.

Or haven't you started to do those yet? And I offered to organise a coach load of people in support. I have to tell you in all sincerity, I have stopped doing that and I have told the people who signed up that it may not go ahead.

What evidence do we have apart from yours that your children are as you say?

I am not, as some are, querying your right to educate your children as you wish. Since you have indicated in the past that both you and they have dyslexia I think it might have helped had you both had the benefit of a sympathetic dyslexia teacher. But hey ho, we can't all have what we wish for.

But you still haven't answered my question - are you still educating your child(ren) at home? If not, are they still being educated, where and at what level. Simple enough question I would have thought.

And before you answer "Personal, not telling you" - you brought them into the discussion in the first place. But you'll have forgotten that by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:40 AM

I'd also like to pose some questions

"To home-educate children in the UK, one does not need a teaching qualification nor any specialist equipment"

What is considered the acceptable 'standard' for any individual to educate a child/young person up to the age of 16 in a range of subjects ?
Is this a task instinctive 'motherhood' and 'love' equips everyone for?
How are such 'qualifications' to be measured?

Does home schooling allow a 'monitor' system where older children are teaching their younger siblings?

In state schools corporal punishment was outlawed in 1986 and 1998 for the few remaining independent schools that retained the practice.
In England and Wales legislation prohibiting corporal punishment does not apply to the home - and logically therefore home educators are still free to exercise this form of discipline with no monitoring?

Any answers?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Chris Green
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:40 AM

I'm with theleveller. I work in education myself and so did both of my parents. Education works best when it's a genuine partnership between kids, parents and teachers.

The only direct case of home-schooling I have personal experience of is a friend of mine whose wife insisted that their kids be taken out of school at the age of 7 and 5 respectively so that she could educate them herself (my friend had a pretty full-on job and she was a housewife). The fact that she'd left school without taking any GCSEs, had never a job and was without a doubt one of the most moronic people I've ever encountered didn't seem to deter her. Sadly it also didn't seem to deter the local LEA from letting her give it a go!

A couple of years later she found herself a new bloke and ditched my friend. And guess what? Suddenly she decided it was time for the kids to go back into full-time education at school! Given that they'd learned nothing at all during their period of home education except some rather choice language, they're now finding it very hard to readjust to mainstream education, not least because of their complete lack of social skills (as they've spent no time with other kids for two years.)

Grrrr.....

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:46 AM

A quote from Lizzie "Children go to school with knives, to protect themselves!"

Both of my daughters have never taken or used knives to school. There are 1200 in the school, so I guess from your comment Lizzie, 1198 must have knives. Well that is just amazing and mind boggling.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:12 PM

I have met a number of children who have been home-schooled all across the country including Alaska. Some were failing in the "system" and parents pulled them out; some had disabilities that simply were not being addressed in the classroom (a whole other discussion); some parents had chosen home schooling for religious reasons.
The one (and only) drawback I saw in almost every situation was a lack of social skills. Some acted like perfect little adults; all had difficulty interacting with other children. This was especially true of the children home schooled for religious reasons. They literally never interacted with anyone outside their parent's chosen world.
I am not sure how that plays out in their adult lives. But if education is the only issue, I suspect they are well educated.



Not sure what this is all about:
"NEVER before have our children NOT wanted to learn as they do not want to learn at present. NEVER before has our young population been so dumbed down, so controlled, so apathetic.....and it's happening because, from the moment of their birth, they are put on that Conveyer Belt of Life, *by their parents*...

We have abused Motherhood. We have removed Femininity. We have stolen the parents from the children and stuck them inside Factory Farms of Edukashon, some so big that the teachers don't even know the names of the children.

Children go to school with knives, to protect themselves! They live their lives in hostile situations, 5 days a week, whilst having to learn things they hate! They get detention, ridicule, told off, humiliated, verbally abused, bullied, kicked....on and on .....and what do 'the parents' say?

"Oh, school has always been like that. That's life, that's the way it is and you have to toughen up, kid!"

So the kids toughened up, and they toughened out. They've lost compassion, kindness, sweetness....They buy books of the best 'put downs' to humiliate each other, they are cruel and rude and cranky...

But most of all, MOST of all, they are deeply, DEEPLY unhappy!"

At least in Maine and Jackson Heights, NY the above is not the norm. There are and always will be some kids who do not fit in . That is for a variety of reasons - some are too bright and get bored; some are not bright enough and get lost; some have parents who are simply not involved. But DEEPLY unhappy?

Not wanting to learn??? Really? Colleges here have to turn away students. Even community colleges are busting at the seams. Trade schools are packed.

I know a lot of kids who have no direction. I know many who have quit school or graduated and do nothing. None of them are dumb. I know none who have been dumbed down. The math I took in high school, they get in grammar school. Sciences are taught in the 6th and 7th grade that I took in college. Every kid I know can out perform me on a computer and can fill you in on every new electronic gizmo out there. That includes the ones who have dropped out of high school.

I suspect the problem described is money rather than education. But that too is another discussion. But the claim that children today are all unhappy? That's simply nonsense. Apathetic? Did you not see how involved young people were in tha last US election? Not the usual Young Republicans Club but kids across every racial, cultural and economic spectrum.Motherhood abused? Check the laws protecting both mother and father in the workplace during and after pregnancy. Removed Femininity? Huh? By encouraging young women to use their minds?

I suspect that some here have had a verybad experience in school. I went to Catholic schools for 12 years and endured physical punishment but oddly enough was always encouraged to think outside the box. Indoctrinated?

It is a role of society to get people to conform to certain norms in order for the society to function for the benefit of most. School works towards that goal. Students learn to read and write; they also learn to be clean, balance a check book, drive a car, that work is a good thing if you plan on supporting yourself and welfare is an option if you don't (but not the best option), that our country is good (Be it the US, China, Japan, whatever).

I wonder if these unhappy children are genuinely unhappy or simply frustrated by the current economy. Or are they enduring the normal problems of adolescence? Are the knife bearers the exception or the rule? Is your glass always half empty?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:34 PM

Sinsull referred to home schooling in Alaska which, in terms of its (lack of) registration and momitoring requirements, is probably more akin to the current situation in the UK that the Badman report has reviewed than our European neighbours or American 'cousins' in other States

Coincidentally, some of the issues discussed here about the UK were also the subject of a recent article in The Anchorage Daily News

Home school: Making the grade?

"Home-schooling has a long history in Alaska. In 1939, the territory started a correspondence program for rural residents who lived where there were no schools.

Correspondence programs were a hybrid -- home schooling, but with some state oversight.

In 1997, then-Sen. Loren Leman cleared any ambiguity about state oversight by sponsoring a law that gave complete freedom to parents. He and other legislators also did away with regulations that said certain subjects needed to be studied.

Some parents home-school for religious reasons. Some because their child has learning disabilities and needs special one-on-one attention that schools don't offer. Some because they don't like the public school social environments where their kids are bullied. And others because they think their kid will get more out of individualized instruction.

So, what's the actual issue here? What's the harm in at least requiring parents to register that they are home schooling their kids?

Narda Butler, a home-school mother and board member of the Anchorage Frontier Charter School who has worked with home-schooling kids for years, is a home-school advocate who wants accountability.

"I come from a background where I really enjoy having the freedom to make curriculum choices... but I also want kids to be adequately prepared."

"I find it very, very scary that you can home-school under Alaska law in a way that has very, very limited accountability." "

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:58 PM

The thing that worries me most about home schooling is the need for science education, which involves expensive equipment and has safety implications which could not be met at home. And it is a subject which is needed in the modern world. I suppose the same problems would arise with other practical subjects such as metalwork.

There is also the suspicion that a deliberate avoidance of science may be one of the causes of home schooling where religion lies behind it. That worries me.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:21 PM

I can't speak to home education in the UK (although I would imagine things aren't terribly different between the two countries in that regard), but I do have some experience with it here in the US.

I home schooled my son for a year when he was about ten years old. He was gifted/learning disabled, and the school system in the area where we lived did not have the resources to be able to serve him adequately, and they were really messing him up. I am grateful that it was possible for me to do that, because the alternative would have been very bad for my son.

I agree that there are a lot of parents who home school who are fairly extreme in their religious views, but there are also a lot of people who home school because they see the schools as not being the best learning environments for their kids. The statistics show that people who are home schooled tend to be far ahead of their peers, academically, so maybe the parents who home school for this reason are on to something.

Obviously, not all parents can home school, but the option should be available for those who want to make the commitment of time energy that is required for the benefit of their children.

On the subject of home schooled children not having the opportunity to develop social skills, there may be some for whom this is a problem, but most home schooling parents make a huge effort to provide opportunities for social development for their kids. In my case, my son and I belonged to a group of home schooling families who would get together regularly so that our kids could do things in a group setting. Some of them were purely social or recreational in nature, and some of them were educational and/or sports related.

And all of these kids have other opportunities for socializing. My son had friends outside of the academic setting, for instance, the kids of my friends, and also through Boy Scouts. Some home schooled kids have social contacts at their churches or little league, or swim clubs, or other organizations they belong to.

My son had poor social skills as a child, but that was because of his learning disabilities, and those problems were made much, much worse by his experiences in the public schools prior to my home schooling him, because there is a culture in many public schools of students ridiculing and bullying children who are different for one reason or another, and many teachers feed into that culture themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:25 PM

By the way, my son is doing great now. He has an undergraduate university degree (bachelor degree) and a very good job. He wants to go back to school at some point and get his masters degree. He as tons of friends and no problems with his social skills.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:28 PM

Oh heavens!

Come ON, people, lighten UP!

Look, home education is really simple! It's so simple that you'd not believe it.

My daughter spent 10 years, (got that?) TEN YEARS in this wonderful system that so many of you idolise. During that time, I watched a gifted and beautiful child literally switch off. She was terrified of getting on the wrong side of teachers, not doing her homework, being late etc. She sat in hot classrooms where windows weren't allowed to be open fully, in case little junior threw himself out...and where the kids had to ask *permission* from the teachers to remove their blazers before they expired over their desks!

Sod that for a game of control! Yeesh!

WHY do people seem to think that school should, for the most part, so often be shitty? Why do people think that their children should have to endure what they did, because it's 'normal'?

It's anything BUT normal!

NEVER, EVER EVER for the rest of your lives will you spend you entire working day in the company of other people who are ALL exactly the same age! Never.

We take our kids OUT of society, where they've been quite happy since birth (or once were, before the Conveyor Belt of Life shoved them into 'Pre School Learning Alliances')....In that society they saw people of all ages, smooth, wrinkled, tall, short...grannys, grandpa's, aunts, uncles, children of friends, older friends, older/younger cousins....and what do we do?

We shove them into a place where everyone's the same age. We make them wear ridiculous uniforms, of ties and hot shirts, despite global warming..and..just to show them how REALLY intelligent the teachers are, we make them wear...BLAZERS too! So much for the science there, then.....

But, we make them do this because...WE had to do this...and because WE had to do this, and our parents before us, it must be RIGHT!

It ain't.

It's crap.

But, people are only now starting to wake up to it.

Fast forward....

You're at a job interview..and on that table is this:

"OK, Butternose, we'll employ you, but these are our conditions, our 'charter' if you like, and without you adhering to these, you won't get the job, got it? Good. Here they are.

You will be polite to your boss at all times, even when he humiliates you in front of your colleagues.

You will never answer back, not even if he is a nasty little bully whom Hitler would have had as his second in command.

You must wear our uniform at ALL times, and if you want to remove any part of it, no matter if it's 170 in the shade, you must ask OUR permission, and...we have the right to decline your request, whereas you have no rights at all.

You must work hard all day long, apart from short breaks during morning and afternoon and a lunch hour. During this time, should your colleagues beat the shit out of you, threaten you or sexually abuse you, we will not be interested, or....we will show the minimum amount of interest, just what we have to do 'legally' because, hey, ALL jobs are like this and you have to learn to deal with that one!

You can only have your holiday at certain times of the year. You will be taken to court if you try to take it at other times of the year. We are not interested if you cannot afford to take it during the weeks we designate, nor if you cannot move on the beach, once you get there, because all the other workplaces are also on holiday. Tough shit, baby.

You must attend work early to have your breakfast here, your tea here and do you afterwork work here, so that we KNOW you are doing it. The afterwork work will be given every single night, and we expect it to be returned at the correct time. If you do not do this, you will be punished, either by having no breakk time at all (hey, that's a good deal, because at least you won't get the arse kicked out of you) or..you can stay behind after work in detention, writing out "I must finish my Afterwork Work on time, at ALL times!"

If you are caught talking to your colleagues when you are supposed to be working, you will be punished.

If you wriggle on your chair, you will be punished.

If you laugh during work time, you will be punished.

If you dare to take your jacket off, without our *permission* you will be punished.

You will be tested on a VERY regular basis. In fact, we may test you so much that you may think you've gone mad, but...we accept no excuses. Tests are tests and humans are designed to have them. We know this because we've paid a very expensive Think Tank to tell us.

At the end of each working year, you will be not only tested, but....examined! If you do not pass the correct amount of exams, with the correct grades, you will be......punished.

We do all of these things to ensure that our workforce turns out well-adjusted spirits, who love coming to their workplace and we hope you appreciate that fact.

Oh...and just one last thing, we will not be paying you for any of this at all.

If you try to work from home, we will stop you. This is because we know that anyone who works from home is abused or...an abuser. Also, they think 'outside the box' which is extremely dangerous when we want you to live in Tickytackyboxland.

What's that junior? Pete Seeger wrote a song about that? This is what we mean! We don't want anyone knowing facts like THAT!

We want our workforce to not question, just DO. That's what builds a country. Never forget that you are Human Resources. If anyone tells you that you are a free person, you must ignore them, because you are no longer free, other than at work, of course, so long as you stick to The Rules.

Punishment is incredibly easy to avoid. You simply have to learn to do as we tell you and your lives will chug along easily, until you die.

Now, be a good prole...and sign The Contract just here:

..............................

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:30 PM

Education is not simply about learning. I could have taught my kids Maths and English, probably to a better level than they received. I could teach them the sciences, in the main and have a good go at the arts. What I could not teach them is how to interact with people other than the family. The thing sadly lacking in home tuition is real life. Nasty as it can be at times life is best experienced, not taught.

And yes, I do have mixed experiences. 5 kids - 3 went through the state system with no more problems than most but the youngest, twins, were subject to a unacceptable amount of bullying. Just because they were different. The last straw was a teacher telling us that it may be better if they were in different classes, to stop them being a target! Huh? The way we handled it was to find a better school. Not remove them altogether.

Regards

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:31 PM

Here is a link to the laws of each state regarding home schooling. Fascinating. Some require nothing but the parent's decision to home school - no testing, no reporting.




http://www.hslda.org/laws/default.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:32 PM

Hmmmm...that's strange, no-one seems to be signing up to the job...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:35 PM

But the school environment is not real life. It's a very artificial envronment, and one that, once out of school, people will never encounter again. Schools do not prepare people for the real world. That's why so many people who are deemed "most likely to succeed" while in school, so often fall flat on their faces once they get out into the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:36 PM

The Villan, some children do go to school armed, for protection AND to use to intimidate other children. Maybe the schools you've had experience with don't, but there are many out there that do. Not all schools are the same

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:37 PM

And by the way, not everyone has the option of putting their kids in a better school.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:54 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:28 PM

errrr....................................

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:59 PM

Hey, have some of you forgotten???????

Your children are YOURS, albeit for a short time!

YOU are the ones who taught them everything they knew, before they went to school! YOU taught them to talk, to walk, to eat, to laugh, to smile....

Why the hell have you all given up, because 'someone' decided that only an 'official' teacher can teach!

We are ALL teachers! And THAT is what has been so desperately overlooked for so very long.

ALL you have to do is teach your child a LOVE of reading and the rest...is history!

From books they will find the world, from walks they will find the world, from talks they will find the world, from the internet they will find the world....from LOVE they will FIND the world....

And it will NOT be a world filled with alcohol, and yet more photos of in yer face drunken nights at yet another partyparty...but something that we used to have, so long ago, something that we have lost.....

Wonder, Time, Amazement.



Yes, for some, school is absolutely right, because they need competition, facts, figures, tests, absolutely thrive on it....but for the rest of us, it's shite, and most of us can recall only one or two brilliant teachers that we not only liked, but loved. Why? Because they treated us like people, made us feel wanted, made us feel intelligent, made us feel we could reach for the stars...and touch them...


Here, a Myspace page that's a little different to the 'many'...one that belongs to a Home Educated child, who nearly gave up on life after 10 years in The System.

Nonny Isabella


So, please, don't give me this shite about Home Ed parents all being nutters, abusers, thickos, who can't add 2 and 2 together. We simply choose to never live within the parellel lines of life that have been laid down for so many.

Yes, there are a few Home Ed parents who are a little odd, but then there are also many In The System Ed parents who are also odd. It's life. But most of us are doing this out of love, and desperation too, because without doing it, some of us would have lost our children to suicide and depression...and NO-ONE, NO 'INSTITUTION' has the right to cause that, just because so many of us have become so indoctrinated into never being able to see 'another way'.

Education Otherwise

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:01 PM

Say what you want, the class (forgive the pun)system is alive and well in schools

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:18 PM

Tickytackyboxland.

What's that junior? Pete Seeger wrote a song about that?

errr no - not exactly
Little Boxes

any more 'facts'?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:26 PM

"So, please, don't give me this shite about Home Ed parents all being nutters, abusers, thickos, who can't add 2 and 2 together."

You need to re-read ALL of the above posts. Not one person has stated that.

"Why the hell have you all given up, because 'someone' decided that only an 'official' teacher can teach!"

Who has given up? Why the histrionics?

Do you home school your children? Fine. It is a legal and perfectly acceptable option. Again - read the posts above.

I didn't. But I was deeply involved in my son's education, the school's activities, day to day classroom events. I supervised the homework and integrated his lessons into our daily life. I taught when he needed a different approach in order to comprehend a concept.

Recently, a young man who had been home schooled went on a murder spree and killed several people. He was angry at his mother and pastor who kept such tight control of him that he had no privacy. He couldn't read a book or magazine without their approval. he could not watch TV. His CD collection was confiscated and destroyed.

No one here is saying that this is the norm for home schooling. Your overly dramatic pictures of desperately unhappy children plodding to abusive public schools and home again to disinterested parents is also not the norm.

To get back to the original post - I don't and didn't home school. I know many parents who do and to a man (woman) it is a difficult task which they take very seriously. Some have strong religious convictions and simply do not want their children exposed to contrary teachings. Some have leanring disabled children who were getting lost in the system. All the children are well educated and normal in every sense. Those who also had interaction with other children in a school setting seemed (Iam not an expert) better adjusted and more social.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:58 PM

I don't think we can really use killing sprees as an indication of anything at all in this context. If we consider it in the home schooling context, then we will have to also address the problem of the killing sprees in public schools in the US that have become so common, the schools are forced to have actual security guards patrolling their campuses and require students to wear photo ID while on the school campus at all times.

Also, of the parents whose children are being schooled because of learning disabilities, those children would have poor social skills regardless of where they were schooled. That just comes with the territory of having learning disabilities, but that problem is made much worse by the school systems. That's why the majority of young people in reform schools have learning disabilities. The schools are really messing them up.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:59 PM

errr no - not exactly
Little Boxes

any more 'facts'?


"...and they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same..."

..is what I was getting at, but I guess it went over the heads of some...so intent are they is scoring points..

It's a 'competitive school thing'...maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:02 PM

no Lizzie it's simply a question of getting your facts correct before you start one of your 'passionate' posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:33 PM

Thank you Carol. That was precisely my point. A killing spree by a home schooled child is no more indicative of the norm than an unhappy experience in public school(US public sschool in this context) is.

Lizzie seems to see only black and white (and before you go off on me I don't mean racially). Your public school experience was bad so all public schools are bad. Your home schooling experience was good so all homeschooling is good.
Then you take the giant leap that anyone who does not home school is bad/lazy/unloving/etc etc etc. And any child in public school is both unhappy and hopelessly restricted in his thinking.

In the process you belittle schools, teachers and students and always with borderline hysterical "passion".
One person stated that in his experience home schooling parents are somewhat neurotic/odd. At least six, including me, described different experiences. But on you harp:
"So, please, don't give me this shite about Home Ed parents all being nutters, abusers, thickos, who can't add 2 and 2 together. We simply choose to never live within the parellel lines of life that have been laid down for so many.

Yes, there are a few Home Ed parents who are a little odd, but then there are also many In The System Ed parents who are also odd. It's life. But most of us are doing this out of love, and desperation too, because without doing it, some of us would have lost our children to suicide and depression...and NO-ONE, NO 'INSTITUTION' has the right to cause that, just because so many of us have become so indoctrinated into never being able to see 'another way'."

Again, why the histrionics? Why the name calling and belittling? Most here are trying to have an intelligent discussion of an important issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:58 PM

One of the reasons I would not want to pull my daughter out of Secondary school, is becuase she has to be among people wether she likes it or not.
If she was at home, she would be in her bedroom most of the time, not wanting to meet people.

Unfortunately one of the problems with Autistic people.

She is bright academically, but lacks the basic skills to survive in the real world.

She is not happy about having to go to school, but touch wood she does not complain and goes becuase that is what she is expected to do.

I have very close links with the special Needs unit and the top people in the school and we have just held a meeting to decide how to bring the basic skills side of things into her school life. It was a very productive meeting with lots of good ideas and things that will be done.

So although in some ways I would like to do home education, I still think the balance is in favour of her going to school.

We moved to a very rural area to try and help her and we reviewed the schools well before we moved there. She loves where we live.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:59 PM

from Jack Campin

I've met a few parents involved in this over the years. Without exception they were all neurotic obsessional cranks

SINSHULL what was that you said Say it out loud so all the class can hear...something about nobody said what? Speak up, don't mumble

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:09 PM

"We simply choose to never live within the parellel lines of life that have been laid down for so many."

Really?

Do you or anyone in your family work for a living? Have your children been vaccinated? Do you pay taxes? Vote? Obey the law, any law? Have a driver's license? Insurance of any type? Do your children wear clothes or run around naked? Sneakers or T shirts? Do they see a dentist occasionally? Do they know who Superman is? Batman? Disney? Sesame Street? Michael Jackson?
What do they read? Any video games?
You hav a Facebook page, the ultimate parallel line trap of the masses.

Never????
Another hyperbole?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:11 PM

"no Lizzie it's simply a question of getting your facts correct before you start one of your 'passionate' posts."


No, Emma.

In my 'story' 'junior' piped up about Pete Seeger's song, because he picked up on the 'tickytacky' word. As I wrote above, those words ARE in the song.

My facts were entirely correct.

Your interpretation of them, entirely wrong.



Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:16 PM

Butterandcheese - you too need to read all of every post before you jump in half cocked.
Lizzie wrote:
"So, please, don't give me this shite about Home Ed parents all being nutters, abusers, thickos, who can't add 2 and 2 together."


I see no mention of anyone accusing homeschoolers of being abusive parents. Nor has anyone said they can't add two and two. Several said just the opposite. I do see and agree with a post that homeschooling can leave children unprotected from abusive parents if they are kept out of public sight.

This is what Jack said:
"Without exception they were all neurotic obsessional cranks, and the idea of allowing anybody that weird to have total control over a child's experiential environment gave me the willies."


and most disagreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:18 PM

I think if parents feel that their children are better served in the schools, they should definitely keep them there. But I also think it's very important for there to be the option for parents to home school their kids if they feel or believe that their kids would be better served that way.

By the way, there were no curriculum requirements or required standards for the people who were home schooling in the area where I lived when I was doing that, but all of the children I met who were being home schooled were getting very good instruction, academically. For the ones from very religious households, they were getting their education tinged with a significant amount of religious training, but not really to any greater extent than kids do in private parochial school settings.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:20 PM

Sigh.......

My children wear clothes, yes. But they don't live their life to the Corporate Boxes...and Education has become just another Corporate Industry, which was born with the birth of the National Curriculum. The NC has been screwing up children and teachers alike, ever since its birth, together with producing a multi-million dollar industry of 'How To Get Your Child Through School Exams', which now line the entire walls of many of our bookshops.

It also gave birth to the Parental Worry Situation...

This of course, has been exacerbated by the Decimation of Motherhood, where mothers, riddled with worry and guilt over leaving Little Junior at the Breakfast Club, because they no longer have the time to feed their own children, can now declare, with pride and certainty that "My Little Junior is doing SO well at school! He's studying for 37 GCSEs...and after that he's going for 11 AS Levels, 52 A Levels AND a BSc degree in Football! We are just SO damned proud of him!"

Of course, Little Junior is really down in Wetherspoons, watching the Hen Night Girlies drink their cocktails through penis shaped straws (I kid you not!)....whilst he thinks "Is this shit REALLY what my life is all about? Is this REALLY *why* I was born?"

But, it takes away the anxiety of the over-stressed, over-anxious working parent, who knows in their heart that actually something is Megaenormously WRONG with the way kids are these days, but hasn't a clue how to live with it...

"And they're all made out of tickytacky and they all look just the same.."

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:24 PM

Oh...and my Facebook page is very different to the norm, Sinsull, because it's about the music....or at least, it will be, once again, when I get it more on track, having cancelled it for the umpteenth time again recently...

I certainly don't do Facebook (or anything else) in the 'conventional' way.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:25 PM

That was my experience too, Carol. The home schooling parents I know took their children's education VERY seriously. In addition, the education included things like cooking a meal, cleaning laundry, budgeting, etc while not taking away from academics.

In Catholic School, religion colored every single aspect of our education. I can remember a nun telling us that it was a mortal sin for President Eisenhower not to take care of his health because he was president and responsible for the free world. For me it was only a venial sin - who cared if I died, I guess. LOL

The parents I know who home school for religious reasons seemed (I can't say I know) more interested from protecting their children from ideas that contradicted their religious beliefs. Valid, in my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:27 PM

'No, Emma.

In my 'story' 'junior' piped up about Pete Seeger's song, because he picked up on the 'tickytacky' word. As I wrote above, those words ARE in the song.

My facts were entirely correct.

Your interpretation of them, entirely wrong.



Thank you.'

I give up! what's the point of attempting any sensible discussion ?

Ok Lizzie 'junior' got it wrong - ok?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:30 PM

Sigh...more baseless claptrap. Your opinion only.

Sigh...Decimation of Motherhood...claptrap

Sigh...Little Junior is really down in Wetherspoons, watching the Hen Night Girlies drink their cocktails through penis shaped straws ...how do they manage to fit every public school child in that little club? And don't they check age - I find it hard to believe that 8 year olds are even interested in Hen Girls.
Sigh...
"And they're all made out of tickytacky and they all look just the same.."

All except you, right Lizzie?

Sigh

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:32 PM

A lot of parents who send their kids to religious schools also do it to protect them from being taught things that are against their beliefs. I know a lot of people who are that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:34 PM

Little Boxes was written by Malvina Reynolds.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:42 PM

Mine certainly did. But I have to admit the quality of education at the local Catholic School was light years ahead of the public school. It did not outweigh the physical abuse that went on.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:44 PM

sorry SINSHULL I hate to disabuse you of your favourite notion that nobody reads ALL the posts except you. I read every single one the more interesting twice

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:46 PM

But missed several key points. Selective reading to make your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:46 PM

OK, you want me to send my children to school? Then you build me a school that works!

Fill it with people of ALL ages, mix the children up, let them have ONE school, all their school-life long, where they are like one family, all growing together, staying friends together. Let adults who want to, learn alongside the children, so that kids see that learning is a life-long joy. Let the little ones help the older ones and the older ones care for the little ones.

Give them tests in Kindness, Tolerance, Compassion, Love.

Make their Sex Education into Love Education.

Teach them that every single one of them is valued.
Teach them that every single one of them has a skill and tell them that is why they are in school, so that the caring teachers can help them discover that skill and build upon it...

Give them nothing but confidence, even if you have to criticise what they do, you do it kindly and constructively.

Throw out any teacher who tells any child that their work is 'crap'....as my daughter was told about her beautiful artwork, because the damage that one person can do to another, especially when the person receiving that criticism is a very young person, can last for years and years and years, sometimes even a life time!

Get rid of ANYONE who thinks that children should wear ties!

Get rid of ANYONE who thinks that children should still all day!
(would you make your DOG sit still all day?)

Get rid of ANYONE who thinks they are better than the children, because they have one of the most special jobs in the world, nurturing the next generation, and should realise that every single child is a Spirit-in-Waiting.

Throw out crap lessons that teach nothing!

Bring in Bean Bags to sit on...

Let the children drink water whenever they want.

Let them go to the toilet, whenever they want, without having to ask, and let them have a bathroom that is decent, well looked after and cared for, preferably at the back of the classroom itself.

Sing with them.

Play with them.

LAUGH with them!

Let them run free every other lesson.

Throw out all the crappy lessons and replace them with Freedom To Be Children lessons...

Our 'puppies' are being kept in 'kennels' throughout their formative years, with no toys to play with, no bones to chew, no fields to run in. They are kept on permanent leashes, so that 'The State' can be in control at all times, tugging them back into their kennels whenever they should try to get out.

If we treated our animals in the same way we treat our children, then the RSPCA would be worn out!

Let them jump and shout and run and play..and then you'll find they'll want to sit down and read too, have quiet times....because children need space too..and sometimes, especially for the quiet children, space is the most important thing of all.

If a child loves sport, great....but don't make all children play sport. Geez, I hated it! All those competitive people getting angry around me, simply because I didn't catch the rounders ball??? Weird!

Build me a school which believes in the words of this man....



"Curiosity has no important place in my work, only conformity."

"School is a twelve-year jail sentence where bad habits are the only curriculum truly learned."


"I don't think we'll get rid of schools any time soon, certainly not in my lifetime, but if we're going to change what's rapidly becoming a disaster of ignorance, we need to realize that the school institution "schools" very well, though it does not "educate"; that's inherent in the design of the thing. It's not the fault of bad teachers or too little money spent. It's just impossible for education and schooling ever to be the same thing."


"I've come to believe that genius is an exceedingly common human quality, probably natural to most of us... I began to wonder, reluctantly, whether it was possible that being in school itself was what was dumbing them down. Was it possible I had been hired not to enlarge children's power, but to diminish it? That seemed crazy on the face of it, but slowly I began to realize that the bells and the confinement, the crazy sequences, the age-segregation, the lack of privacy, the constant surveillance, and all the rest of national curriculum of schooling were designed exactly as if someone had set out to *prevent* children from learning how to think and act, to coax them into addiction and dependent behavior."


"...'How will they learn to read?' you ask, and my answer is 'Remember the lessons of Massachusetts.' When children are given whole lives instead of age-graded ones in cellblocks, they learn to read, write, and do arithmetic with ease, if those things make sense in the kind of life that unfolds around them."


"It's absurd and anti-life to be part of a system that compels you to sit in confinement with people of exactly the same age and social class. That system effectively cuts you off from the immense diversity of life and the synergy of variety; indeed it cuts you off from your own past and future, sealing you in a continuous present much the same way television does..."


"Whatever an education is, it should make you a unique individual, not a conformist; it should furnish you with an original spirit with which to tackle the big challenges; it should allow you to find values which will be your road map through life; it should make you spiritually rich, a person who loves whatever you are doing, wherever you are, whomever you are with; it should teach you what is important, how to live and how to die."




"By preventing a free market in education, a handful of social engineers - backed by the industries that profit from compulsory schooling: teacher colleges, textbook publishers, materials suppliers, et al. - has ensured that most of our children will not have an education, even though they may be thoroughly schooled."

...ALL quotes from John Taylor Gatto


....and then I will send my children back to school.

Basically, build me a school that treats children with dignity and respect, no less than you expect from your job, and then, watch them blossom!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Chris Green
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:46 PM

For what it's worth, going to school taught me to express my opinions succinctly and to make points without resorting to hyperbole...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:49 PM

Pete Seeger will always be associated with Tickytacky boxes, because he used to sing it to me, under the bedclothes....and I used to wonder about this song...about those who lived in the litte houses, the pink one and the yellow one....

Junior loves Pete Seeger too.

Bruce has Malvina Reynolds on his Myspace page, I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:51 PM

To be fair, though, there's more than enough people who attended school outside the home who are also guilty of using hyperbole to make their points.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:51 PM

selective. hardly

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:54 PM

I think the 29 Sep 09 - 04:46 PM post is a pretty fair description of Waldorf Schools. I would love to have been able to send my son to one of those.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Chris Green
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:55 PM

True. I was being mischievous, I'm afraid!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:57 PM

"OK, you want me to send my children to school?"

Actually with the exception of Jack everyone is saying that parents should have the right to home school their children if they choose. Of course, this is a discussion on a website and is not legally binding.


And once again you are off and running spouting a lot of nonsense that in no way makes for a logical discussion.

Only one for instance:
"Get rid of ANYONE who thinks that children should wear ties!"
What about the parents (Mormons, for instance) who think their children should wear ties? And what about the parents who want their children to wear bra tops or Speedos? What about nudists? Who decides, Lizzie? You?
No dress code except your own?

Hop down off that soapbox and contribute. Do you rant on like this when you are teaching your children?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:58 PM

I should just clarify that Pete Seeger *himself* wasn't er...under the bedclothes with me, just the radio from which his voice was reaching me... :0) Teeheee!

School taught me that I wanted to be anywhere BUT school!

"Your brother is like you. He has a fine brain, but he's too lazy to use it."

....my French teacher, to my French class......

Course, she was so dumb that she never knew Leigh had dyslexia. He didn't either, because no other person picked up on it either, not until he was 31...and then...it was me. "You're taking ages to read that letter, Leigh, bung it over here" says I. "I have trouble reading, the letters jump around a lot and I have to make them sit still, but I *can* read." said he...

A lifetime of school and no-one ever bothered to ask him if he was OK, if he was struggling...

Now, if he'd been in my school above, they'd have picked up on his woodwork abilities, his artistic abilities, his uncanny way of making money...Oh, the antique and second hand shops I was dragged around on Harrow-on-the-Hill, as my brother bought second edition books from one shop, then sold them, at a profit, to the next shop along the road...

To his teachers though, he was stupid, because he didn't fit in the 'academic' box. Pah! My brother was no more stupid than they were, he just wasn't 'made' for school, that was all. Had he been Home Educated, he'd probably have been a Millionaire in his early 20s, but as it was, he was lacking in confidence about many things, angry and bitter, after years of being told how lazy and stupid he was...

Hey, that's school though, pick you up on the faults, not the amazing things that make you, YOU.

Ho hum.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 05:00 PM

Parents only put their kids in ties, because the schools dictate they should.

Ban ties altogether.

Bring back pirate shirts!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 05:09 PM

I had the same problems with school because of my multiple learning disabilities. I think a Waldorf school would have addressed all of our problems (those of us with learning disabilities), because they teach the kids through creativity and hands on working with things. And they always think outside the box.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 05:14 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 05:16 PM

Oops.


I don't know if they have Waldorf Schools in the UK, but this is some information about them from the website for the Association of Waldorf Schools of North America...

"Waldorf schools offer a developmentally appropriate, balanced approach to education that integrates the arts and academics for children from preschool through twelfth grade. It encourages the development of each child's sense of truth, beauty, and goodness, and provides an antidote to violence, alienation, and cynicism. The aim of the education is to inspire in each student a lifelong love of learning, and to enable them to fully develop their unique capacities."

http://www.whywaldorfworks.org/

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: paula t
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 05:19 PM

as a teacher, I have met many home- schooled children. Many have been well adjusted children , but a huge percentage of these children have found the work difficult. I have worked in both primary and secondary schools. When these children have re-entered primary school, many have usually managed to catch up within about a year.However,some enter secondary school still finding the work difficult - because things are moving on while they are trying to "fill in the gaps". However, the vast majority of school returners I have met have been in secondary school.They have returned because their parents feel unable to teach them to the standards required - and have realised that their children need qualifications if they want to have more freedom of choice when looking at careers(This is unfortunately a hard fact of life in our society).Many of these children have been disadvantaged when they have returned, because they have fallen well behind over the years. I have known a number of these children who have grown to resent their parents because they "Let them down".This is really sad. Their parents felt they were doing what was right. Everything was done for the best motives, and the children in most cases had enjoyed their time at home.
Home schooling can be extremely valuable, but it is not to be entered into lightly. It has a far reaching effect on the children involved, and they are the ones who finally have to face the consequences if they have a substandard education - not the parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 05:27 PM

I don't know what country the above poster teaches in, but in the US, home schooled students tend to perform above average.

"Standardized test results for 16,000 home educated children, grades K-12, were analyzed in 1994 by researcher Dr. Brian Ray. He found the nationwide grand mean in reading for homeschoolers was at the 79th percentile; for language and math, the 73rd percentile. This ranking means home-educated students performed better than approximately 77% of the sample population on whom the test was normed. Nearly 80% of homeschooled children achieved individual scores above the national average and 54.7% of the 16,000 homeschoolers achieved individual scores in the top quarter of the population, more than double the number of conventional school students who score in the top quarter."

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000017.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 05:31 PM

This one's more recent...

http://www.educationreport.org/pubs/mer/article.aspx?id=10918

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: paula t
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 05:31 PM

I teach in the UK and have spoken about my experience of working with these children. I have no idea what the statistics are in this country. I don't even know if there are any. Anyone out there know?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 05:33 PM

The Waldorf schools sound great, Carol. We have Steiner schools over here..but they seem to be associated with Waldorf as well....One and the same? Same outlook, at least, I'd say...

Steiner


There are many school educated children who have sub-standard eduction, imo, paula.

Teachers have no time.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 05:33 PM

Schools can be dangerous. The pack mentality is not adequately controlled.

But home education can be dangerous too.

I can see merit in rigorous testing of the home educated, but I am alarmed at the suggestion of government set texts.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 05:36 PM

Good god.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 05:37 PM

I'm guessing that the Steiner schools are the same thing as Waldorf schools. I think the Waldorf schools were started by Steiner, or based on his work or something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 05:57 PM

Does anyone else find this 'answer' on wikianwers a tad disturbing?

Q. How well do home schooled children do academically all around compared to public schooled children?

A. This is unknown/at least unknown to me, because there are 1-2 million homeschoolers and millions more public-schoolers, it would be difficult to take a survey/test.

But I think, that yes, homeschoolers MAY be smarter than the average public schoolers. Because:

1) If the homeschooler is a Christian the child learns about Creation and God without being ridiculed or gets ridiculous ideas about evolution into their head.

2) The child is not corrupted by bad friends/peer pressure, and can make decisions on his own confidently.

3) The child is taught in a better format and place. At a public school there are bullies, "mean" teachers, peer pressure, etc., that may prevent a child from doing his best/focusing on doing his best.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 06:04 PM

I think it speaks volumes about home schooling!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 06:09 PM

OK, you want me to send my children to school? Then you build me a school that works!

and then I will send my children back to school.

For the benefit of people reading this Lizzie - exactly how old are your children?

Have you taught your children the benefits of precis?

Or like you do they just copy and paste?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 06:27 PM

I've taught my children to be kind, Dave.

Shame your school obviously overlooked teaching you that...




"I think it speaks volumes about home schooling!"

Oh, poo...Gervy! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 06:29 PM

From what you tell us, Lizzie, you have clearly made a success of teaching your children. Would you be kind enough to share the secrets of your success?

I don't mean in the vague terms that you usually use but some more concrete things.

Do you teach reading? What method(s)do you use? How long each day?

Did you teach your children to write?

How much per day do you spend on particular subjects if any?

How is the day structured? I spent some time at a school where children were free to do as they please. Were your children educated like that? The school I'm talking about had formal lessons though it was not compulsory to attend them. Do you do any formal teaching?

Since you clearly spend a lot of your day ranting on the internet, copying and pasting onto Myspace, and writing to Mudcat and discovering undiscovered musicians - how much time are you actually devoting to your children?

Finally since your full-time job seems to be educating your children how are you paid?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 06:30 PM

My children are 22 and 15, if you must know...and....in my post I spoke of adults learning alongside children, young teaching old and vice versa...so yes, I've no doubt my kids wouldn't mind going to a school like that, if they were older...as they both have a love of learning..and a love of being kind.

I expect they could teach you some people a great deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 06:31 PM

For the benefit of people reading this Lizzie - exactly how old are your children?

Our regular readers may care to note the absence of an answer to this.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 06:34 PM

So I would imagine that you are no longer teaching the 22 year old.

Are you still teaching the 15 year old?

If so what are you teaching him? About love and kindness, marvellous.

Literature? Art? Science? Foreign languages?

Since you are clearly very succesful (from what you tell us) why are you not prepared to share the secrets of your success?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 06:34 PM

"I don't mean in the vague terms that you usually use but some more concrete things."

My son's been learning about concrete today, helping to build a wall in the garden.

My daughter was over at her dad's, studying for her Open Uni degree in Art History.

Yawwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnn

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 06:35 PM

I don't think that Wiki Answers comment says a thing about home schooling. It does, however, say a lot about fundamentalist Christianity. Those kinds of comments could just as easily have come from someone who was talking about private fundamentalist Christian schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Goose Gander
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 06:39 PM

From the second link provided by Carol (article date September 2009) . . .

"The nation's home-schooled children score, on average, at the 88th percentile on standardized tests in reading, math and language, according to a study commissioned by the Home School Legal Defense Association and conducted by the National Home Education Research Institute."

"The average public school student taking the same standardized tests scored at the 50th percentile . . . ."

"Home-school scores showed little "achievement gap" by gender or household income . . . ."

Of course, the Home School Legal Defense Association may not exactly be an impartial observer. It would be helpful to know more about how the study was conducted.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 06:46 PM

I don't know how the study was conducted, but I do know they've won a lot of cases in court in which parents' right to home school was being challenged. I know the facts they are working with are a big part of their success. I was challenged in court for home schooling my son (I won). They didn't represent me in that court case, but they helped me a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 06:47 PM

That's marvellous Lizzie. Your daughter is studying with some highly qualified teachers. Well done. And I am a great admirer of the Open University. Set up by a Labour Government of course.

As for the 15 year-old son what are you teaching him about concrete and building walls? Or have you handed this aspect of his education to someone else too whilst you build your MySpace pages and write on Mudcat?

And what's on the cards for tomorrow? Concrete walls again? Literature? Science? Languages? Sport? IT?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:26 PM

Given that some states do not require standardized testing I am not sure how you can compare.

But forget about test scores and rankings - they mean little or nothing in real life. By that I mean no one cares if you got an A or a D in Biology in the 6th grade.

It would be interesting to get a fair cross section of home schooled adults and see how they compare themselves to classroom educated adults of the same time period. It would also be interesting to see if they have chosen to home school their own children.

Another bit of information: in the US home schooling can take many forms including education in the home, in a group of homes, partially in home and a classroom, with a curriculum and testing, without a curriculum and testing. Hard to compare apples to oranges to pears.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:41 PM

Our regular readers may care to note the absence of an answer to this.

well this reader deems it no one elses business how old Lizze Cornish's kids are, I know it's not importsnt to me

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:46 PM

sorry that GUEST was me...mumble mumble..

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:50 PM

She answered that question over an hour ago - 15&22.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 07:55 PM

If we can't put all home schooling situations in one category for the purpose of evaluating whether or not home schooling is effective, then we also can't put all schools together in one category for the purpose of evaluating whether or not they are more effective than home schooling. There are many kinds of government schools, and many degrees of quality of government run schools. And there are many kind of privately owned schools, and many degrees of quality in all of the different kinds of privately owned schools.

I know for a fact that government run schools fail a lot of children. And the results I've seen from some private schools (particularly religious ones) don't speak well of the ability of those schools to produce well balanced people.

I think any criticism that can be made about home schooling can also be made about schools. It all just depends on the situation in question.

There is one criticism of schools that cannot be made of home schooling situations, however. When parents don't do a good job of home schooling their kids, the number of people who are negatively impacted by that is limited to the number of kids they have home schooled - usually a very small number. When schools do a bad job, they fuck up a hell of a lot of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 08:35 PM

Oh dear, so much ignorance and prejudice. Please find out about Education otherwise, flexi-schooloing, free schools, the small school at Hartland, Human scale education, Waldorf schools ( yes, they are part of the Steiner system)Educational heretics press etc. What bollocks about Tertiary education. The really rich didn't bother with Eton, they hads home education, with governessses and Tutors.....it was good enough for Alexander the Great, mind you, he did have Aristortle as his tutor.
    Please, pleaase please, don't confuse education with schooling, or teaching with learning. And if you are really interestyed in anything but ignorant ranting, find out about autodidacts...fascinating stuff....and everyone can do it, apart from the many that havr been labeled failures by the school system.....they've sadly lost the rampant curiosity they had before they were five.

Spend a couple of bob on the excellent 'freethinkers guide to the educational universe
The Freethinkers' Guide to the Educational Universe
A Selection of Quotations on Education

Compiled by Roland Meighan

Published 1994 by Educational Heretics Press
113 Arundel Drive, Bramcote Hills. Nottingham NG9 3FQ

Copyright © 1994 Educational Heretics Press

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 09:13 PM

I can see merit in rigorous testing of the home educated, but I am alarmed at the suggestion of government set texts.

Somebody brought up the New Zealand example. That's exactly what they do (or did when I was there). The state operated a primary education system for kids living on remote farms. It used a curriculum that was, if anything, more fixed than the one followed by kids in ordinary schools. Packets of material sent out by mail and teachers following how the kids were doing, also by mail. It worked very well; you couldn't tell kids educated that way apart from others, except that they tended to know a lot more about the sexual physiology of farm animals and had peculiar gaps in their knowledge of what you could find in a city. That sort of system doesn't have anything in common with what UK homeschoolers want. Hill farmers don't have time to be neurotic weirdos.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 03:42 AM

The wikianswers piece certainly backed up my feelings. Why are these people so determined to keep their children shielded from something they believe evidence shows is wrong? (Not that I agree with them.)

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 04:05 AM

In the end, home schooling, like private schools, is elitist. The vast majority of parents simply do not have the time (let's not hear the crap about the evils of working mothers)or the necessary education themselves. What is happening, however, is that many more parents are seeking to become classroom assistants and to contribute that way. For many years mrsleveller has worked for the Workers' Education Association, running courses, mainly in deprived 'sink' estates, to give parents the skills and qualification to become classroom assistants and also running courses on Special Educational Needs. These are amazingly popular and successful, especially bearing in mind that most of the students are themselves very poorly educated.

So, instead of burying their heads in the sand, maybe those parents who want to help with their children's education - and have a wider impact on education in their area - should consider this as a course of action instead of indulging in the intrinsically selfish practice of educating their children at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 04:08 AM

Why are you so eager to believe that 'school' is right, Penny? For many it's not.

What evidence shows that school is 'right'?

There are some children out there who have killed themselves, because of the pressures and unhappiness they suffered at school.

When my daughter imploded with it all, I knew, right there and then, that I would never EVER send her back into a system which had done this to her.

School, as it is today, de-sensitises children. For many it has become purely a place to survive in.

One of the things that caused my daughter the greatest upset was that the person, the people, she felt should have cared MOST about her were the ones sending her into the hellhole called school, a place so alien to her, where she lived under a constant feeling of aggression from other kids.



"That's marvellous Lizzie. Your daughter is studying with some highly qualified teachers. Well done...."

Er, no...she's studying almost entirely on her own actually, Dave, through choice. She doesn't choose to go to the OU course days, preferring to study quietly on her own. The only contact she has with her course tutor is mainly be email or the occasional phone, and that is purely him checking up on everyone to ensure there are no problmes. She has no problems with her course.


"And I am a great admirer of the Open University. Set up by a Labour Government of course."

I don't actually give a flying duck who set it up, Dave. I voted Tony Blair in first time round, so I can assure you that I'm no staunch Tory.   I vote for those I think will bring change. If they don't, then I don't vote for them next time.



"As for the 15 year-old son what are you teaching him about concrete and building walls? Or have you handed this aspect of his education to someone else too whilst you build your MySpace pages and write on Mudcat?"

You just don't get it, do you? If my son has the opportunity to experience something new...and he wants to do that, then he can. He's been helping the builder, for your information.

We are all teachers, Dave...yes, even builders. Just because you have the 'sign' above your head saying 'teacher' makes you no better or worse than me.


"And what's on the cards for tomorrow? Concrete walls again? Literature? Science? Languages? Sport? IT? "

Life, Dave. Simply Life. Freedom of Choice. Freedom for my son to choose what he wants. And he is an intelligent, erudite, kind young man, so don't you dare give me any crap about him, because he could run rings around you, particularly in the politeness stakes.

The difference between us is that I do not go out of my way to try and belittle and humiliate, as you choose to do with me. It is a fault that way too many teachers suffer from, without even being aware.   Perhaps it comes from too many years of 'being in charge'.

Know this. I will answer your questions only when, and IF, I want to.

Now, kindly get off my back and perhaps take up some of the points that others, who are also in support of Home Education have raised, rather than constantly picking on me. Thank you.


When my daughter was considering going to Exeter College to study art, she was told, over and again, that the college welcomed all Home Educated children. This was because they not only know that Home Education is GREATLY on the increase, but because they also realise that many Home Educated kids are lovely people, filled with a thirst for knowledge.

Sadly, my daughter was put off by the art teacher herself, who said to her, along these ling..."I need to tell you this, because I want to be honest with you. Please don't come here thinking that it will be different from school, because it won't be. We have many pupils here now who actually don't want to learn, so the behaviour problems continue into college"

The reason? New Labour of course, now pays kids to stay in education, so a whole new generation has arisen who are only 'there for the money'


Tug, I love your post. Thank you for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 04:11 AM

"In the end, home schooling, like private schools, is elitist."

Total rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 04:18 AM

As the option is open to only a small minority is is, of course, elitist.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 04:18 AM

"So, instead of burying their heads in the sand, maybe those parents who want to help with their children's education - and have a wider impact on education in their area - should consider this as a course of action instead of indulging in the intrinsically selfish practice of educating their children at home. "


We are NOT all the same, levels.

We are free people, born free...free to live our lives the way WE want to!

'School' dictates what we learn, how we learn it, when we learn it.

Learning is a life long business, we never stop. Every day we learn something different, often without even knowing. There IS another way to live your lives...but most are so 'conditioned' or shit scared to step outside the 'One Rule For All' message, that they never even try.

I do not believe we are all the same. I do not believe we all want to learn the same. I do not believe we all think the same.

I am a free person, and I have the RIGHT to live my life as I so choose, as do my children. They wanted, and chose, Home Education. My daughter has to fight twice as hard to get people to 'see' her, because employers are so thick these days they only see 'exam results' and not the person, but you know what....they always end up seeing Nonny, because she is erudite, intelligent, kind and gentle...and she always wants to do her best for those she works for.

Stop demanding that she lives her life the way YOU think she should.

She is free to live her life as she so chooses in the same way that we are all are. So many never get to taste that freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 04:20 AM

Hi Sam,

Nice to see you back.

well this reader deems it no one elses business how old Lizze Cornish's kids are, I know it's not importsnt to me

Well it is important - because reading this at the beginning you might imagine Lizzie is teaching two children at home, whereas the daughter, (presumably having decided for herself) is studying for a degree, and is working with some highly qualified professionals.

Now many people - including me - can see a lot right with home education in the early years, especially if the parent(s) involved have some knowledge of child development, teaching reading, writing, knowing when to bring in things like foreign languages, music, science and so on and at a level appropriate to the child. Or knowing when not to bring them in as the case might be.

It is knowing these strategies that distinguish the good home educator from the bad one. In fact many people who go in for home education have all these skills and know what they are doing. This is why a lot of the evidence of success or otherwise of home education is confusing. Home education is not homogenous but covers a huge variety of learning styles - certainly many more than formal schooling.

The best known "free" school in Britain has no compulsory lessons, full democratic meetings three times per week with pupils having exactly the same rights as adults, and has been running since the 1930's. It isn't perfect but I bet it gets close to Lizzie's ideal. But when children decide to learn (and remember it isn't compulsory at any age) they are taught in formal lessons.

I happen to think if Lizzie is a strong advocate of home education and as someone who claims great success in educating her own children that it would be informative for the whole of the education world if Lizzie could share her methods so the people who she rants against could emulate her success. Unless she believes all children should be taught by all parents by some sort of parental instinct.

After all she has ranted against the school system for long enough. I happen to think she ought to suggest something to put in its place other than wooly phrases.

Not compulsory of course - but Sam, don't you think it would be enlightening for the rest of us to learn from Lizzie?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 04:26 AM

Quote

"In the end, home schooling, ............, is elitist."

Total rubbish.

End of Quote

I agree, that is a rubbish statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 04:26 AM

"As the option is open to only a small minority is is, of course, elitist. "

No, the option is there for *everyone*, but it's damned hard!

Hey, you think I'm 'rolling in it'? You think I have loadsa money?
No way! I lived the early years of our Home Edding in the library, borrowing books, reading with them...I've always collected books, so I had many for them to read here at home. I lived in charity shops, always widening the book collection we had. I bought videos there too.

On line you have the entire WORLD at your fingertips...and you can get that for free at your library too, for an hour every day.

We scrimped and scraped and worked bloody hard in those early years.

Local holidays, cheap holidays...just scraping by with the bills, sometimes getting into debt, but you know, it's been worth every bloody penny!

Even our dear Education Welfare Officer brought us books, music CDs for my children, art books for my daughter...It was all he could give us, from his own collection! He gave Nonny his entire collection, years worth, of National Geographic Magazines, which she still has to this day...from there she found their website...turned the wonderful photos into her own paintings.

He inspired her! He inspired Josh! He made my kids feel like a million dollars whenever he came round. He absolutely despaired at what is happening in schools..and spent the rest of his work time trying to tutor the kids who'd been expelled, because they were eligible for 25 hours free tuition a week! but if The System has damaged you almost beyond repair and you choose to opt out, before you FALL out, you get NOTHING!

Well, he gave us his love and support.

Sadly, he's HAD to take retirement now, even though he doesn't want to, because they're 'cutting back'....He's a great loss to us, and we have only one more EWO visit before my son is really free at last.

So no, don't tell me it's elitist, because ANYONE can do it, but it's damned hard work!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 04:37 AM

My daughter, Dave, as I have said before, is NOT working with anyone. She gets her books, reads them, studies them, watches the required videos, then writes up on it all, as she's requested to do...but no...she is doing it on her own. Please read what I have said, because, in your usual Rush to Belittle, you are missing much of what I am saying.

Nonny has always loved studying on her own. She loves to learn, it is her passion. Do not DARE to suggest that ONLY teachers have taught her this. The teachers she did have taught her the exact opposite, because she switched off BIGTIME from wanting to learn!

There has been only ONE teacher in her life who inspired her, and he was at her primary school. Mr. Meek was a former Circus Entertainer, (yes, I can hear you stuffy ones sniffing right now)....a man who brought magic into his pupils lives..a man who sat them down, told them wonderful, thought-illuminating stories, a man who made the laugh...and a man who they loved and who loved his kids back, whilst at the same time, knowing exactly how to keep them interested and well behaved.

If all teachers were like Mr. Meek, then schools would be filled with children who laughed and played and learnt, all alongside each other, all the way through their school years.

Expand your minds!   Open them wide and let in a whole new perspective, because we have been getting it WRONG for so very, very long!

And when some children are choosing death, over school, then it should be just a teensy bit of a warning sign to those who, allegedly, care about children!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 05:02 AM

>>As the option is open to only a small minority is is, of course, elitist<<

Once again rubbish

I have come so close at times to doing home education for my daughter. That has been when things are clearly not working.

I my case if I had gone ahead with that it would have been in desperation and for the love and care of my daughter.

I have teacher training certificates and a very high level of teaching ICT with qualifications to prove it. As well as that I have studied and spent a lot of time with Autistic specialists.

One might ask, well why aren't you out there using your skills.

Answer. A long time ago, my wife and I discussed the serious issues of having one of us always available to further the needs of our daughter. I was having difficulties working, due to ill health, whereas my wife was fit and has always been a Freelance Translator and loves what she does.
So we decided that we would sell our house and downgrade our house and use the surplus money to clear the mortgage and reduce our outgoings as much as possible. My wife would carry on her own business and I would lookafter the daughters interests and deal with all the admin and techie side of my wifes business, which is what I do.

We live on a single income which is classed as fairly low, but we survive somehow.

We would give our last penny to help our daughter get the very best we could offer her.

If I chose to do Home tuition, I hardly think I would be eletist.

Soemtimes its not about money. Its about the love and care of the children that you have brought into this world.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 05:16 AM

Having just read Lizzie's last post at Date: 30 Sep 09 - 04:26 AM , I can truly empathise with her.

However, unlike Lizzie, I do not think there is only one way to educate. There are some pretty crap teachers out there and some excellent ones. There are some very good schools and some pretty crap ones. There are some pretty good home educators and some pretty crap ones.

All you can do as a parent is do your very best and make considered decisions that you think are correct at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 05:18 AM

"No, the option is there for *everyone*, but it's damned hard!"

No, of course it isn't open to anyone.

Perhaps you should try telling that to a mother on Lupset Estate near Wakefield who, in addition to looking after her family, probably has two or even three jobs to support them. These are the people who, despite a huge fear of their own inadequacies, are grasping the opporunity to become classroom assistants.

So, I maintain that home schooling is elitist and, despite cries of "rubbish", no-one has taken the trouble to tell my why it is not so. So, come on, convince me that it is an option open to anyone and I'll withdraw my comment. Perhaps a long hard look at how 'real' people outside our comfortable middle-class boundaries are obliged to live their lives would be advisable first.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 05:28 AM

I object to that leveller, you pompous arsehole.

We are poor and survive by month.

Home Education is open to everybody, but circumstances may make it an option some people will not take for various reasons.
That is their decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 05:37 AM

Leveller
Why don't stick to what you seem to be best at together with Mrs Leveller, and leave other people to get on with their lives in the way they see best.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 05:43 AM

My daughter, Dave, as I have said before, is NOT working with anyone. She gets her books, reads them, studies them, watches the required videos, then writes up on it all, as she's requested to do...but no...she is doing it on her own. Please read what I have said, because, in your usual Rush to Belittle, you are missing much of what I am saying.


You said: "My daughter was over at her dad's, studying for her Open Uni degree in Art History.

Apparently for this she is not working with anyone.

The people who recommend the reading, the people who read and mark her work, the ones who made the videos she is watching, apparently they don't count!! Those who designed the course, at the varying levels needed to complete it they apparently don't count. The study skills in the course, no-one wrote those.

Shame you can't recognise other people's contribution to your daughter's education Lizzie.

Now if your son is working with a builder he is working with a skilled professional.

I agree with you your son can learn from a builder. Learn a lot indeed even become a builder himself, a highly respectable skill. I do hope that if he wants to be a builder that helps him along.

So your daughter is learning from a set of highly skilled professioonals at the O.U. and your son is learning from a builder.

And your role (as a home educator) is precisely what?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 06:06 AM

"I object to that leveller, you pompous arsehole."


Err, excuse me.... you tell me my statement is rubbish without giving any justification. I take the trouble to explain why I made the comment and ask for the counter argument. I thought that is what a discussion board was all about but, in your ignorance, you have decided that your only answer is abuse. I am not dictating how people live their lives, I am engaging in what was, until your outburst, a civilised debate. If you can't handle that then, in your own coin, go and fuck yourself and leave it to people who can.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 06:16 AM

That would be very difficult to do Leveller. No doubt you have experience in that area. :-)

Would you like to explain which part of Elitism you are refferring to Leveller as it has a very wide meaning and possibly taking your commnet as a whole is not fully explaining why you make such comments.

Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite—a select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight or those who view their own views as so; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.[1] Alternatively, the term elitism may be used to describe a situation in which power is concentrated in the hands of the elite. Those opposed to elitism are considered supporters of anti-elitism, populism or the political theory of pluralism. Elite theory is the sociological or political science analysis of elite influence in society - elite theorists regard pluralism as a utopian ideal.

Elitism may also refer to situations in which an elite individual assumes special privileges and responsibilities in the hope that this arrangement will benefit humanity or themselves. At times, elitism is closely related to social class and what sociologists call social stratification. Members of the upper classes are sometimes, though inaccurately, known as the social elite. The term elitism is also sometimes used to denote situations in which a group of people claiming to possess high abilities or simply an in-group or cadre grant themselves extra privileges at the expense of others. This form of elitism may be described as discrimination. Such elitism has social psychological consequences


If you can pinpoint which parts you think relate to Home Education and why, then maybe we can get some concensus on the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 06:54 AM

Thanks for your lecture in semantics. If you read my previous posts, you'll see that I've already explained what I mean in some detail.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 07:10 AM

I don't think I am going back over 100 and odd posts again. Lets just beg to differ.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 07:58 AM

I'll agree to that.

To return to the debate:

Lizzie mentions that, for her daughter, it is a particular struggle to get interviews. Prospective employers can't be blamed for this - we have to interact with other people's requirement and perceptions throughout our lives, otherwise the whole world seems out of step with us. A formal education is the key to this and it forms the grounding for the life-long process of learning.

A previous poster mentions autodidacticism (hope that's how it's spelled) and I agree that this is the essence of life-long learning. If I can cite the example of my grandfather to demonstrate this – he was the ultimate autodidact; after leaving school at the age of 12 to work as a plough-boy, he became one of the most knowledgeable people I have ever met on a wide range of subjects, soaking up knowledge right up to his death at the age of 94. The point is that he had been taught not WHAT to learn, but HOW to learn (cue well-known quote from Dr Johnson about two types of knowledge). Today, the most effective way of doing this is, I believe, through our tested, refined and constantly monitored education system. Whilst allowing everyone to pursue their individual interests throughout life, it at least means that we stand a better chance of being able to communicate with each other on an equal footing on at least a basic level.

My own experience of the school system in the 50s and 60s was not a particularly happy one, but I really do think that things have come on leaps and bounds, especially in the last few years. OK, it's not perfect, but what is in life?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 08:07 AM

Anyway, its certainly noe elitist. The people I know who have been driven to home schooling include people on benefits and single working mothers. Home education doesn't mean staying at home with mum! Education otherwise helps people to come together in communities opf interest, helps them to make use of what is freely available in the community, and helps people develop self study skills. For those who choose it, it is right for them. The kids often re-enter mainstream ed at 6th form or college level when there is at least a reasonable chance that they will be trteated like adults.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smedley
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 08:40 AM

Forgive the flippancy, but I can't quite stop myself wondering if Lizzie has children called Hey and No.

To go with Nonny........

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 11:03 AM

The people I know who have been driven to home schooling ......and single working mothers.

That's interesting. How does a single working mother home educate? I suppose it is possible - but not the easiest thing in the world.

I have met a number of home educated people, indeed as I mentioned earlier my daughter's partner is one. But the ones I have known have all had a structure to what they were doing. This to ensure that for example reading and writing skills were covered.

Lizzie's daughter for example is currently reading for an OU degree. I am genuinely intrigued to know how she was taught (by Lizzie as I understand it) to read. I also understand that she is dyslexic - though I might be wrong on that one - but I again I am genuinely interested to know what strategies are used in an educational context to deal with any difficulties this might bring.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 11:40 AM

Some more questions about home education - a fascinating subject and one on which we have someone who has done it and is able to guide those of us without their vision. I am eager to learn from their experience. Then if either of my daughters want to home educate I might be able to refer them to some of the work done already and (hopefully) detailed on here.

Lizzie - one of the complaints that teachers make constantly is that there is too much record keeping and not enough money to pay for things.

Did you keep any records of what your child (ren) do or did eacn day or each week? Projects covered? Things learnt? Are you able to show progress from your methods?

And apart from the EWO dropping off a pile of National Geographic magazines (nice you wanted her to learn from an American magazine). what other resources were you given? Purchased? Clearly you have a computer, do they? Do you share one with them?

Have you had massive financial resources or are you living off the taxpayer?

Since you have no problems telling us how bad teachers and schools are, and how succesful you have been it would be really helpful if you could tell us.

It may be possible to save some money and get more people to do what you do. Think of the savings on light and heat. (Mind - they would be transferred to the home educator - maybe not such a good idea).

Have all the local tradespeople been as kind to your son as the builder you have talked about? I have to tell you around here they are too busy making a living to deal with young people - they leave that to schools and colleges.

But hey ho I must be nice to live in a place like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 12:17 PM

Read Folkiedave's criticism of Lizzie Cornish perhaps using taxpayers money for the education of her children. I have a question for you Folkiedave You, I understand have a radio programme promoting folk music. Do the British taxpayers fund the radio station in any way, shape, or form?
Just asking about the dispersal of tax-payers money.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 12:19 PM

FolklieDave wrote
That's interesting. How does a single working mother home educate? I suppose it is possible - but not the easiest thing in the world.

No its not easy, but neither is it easy for a single parent to hold down a job. I did this for many years by enlisting the aid of others.
Homeschoolers often work in communities, and support each other...perhaps taking a group of kids together, with those parents at work chipping in for materials etc.

Where there's a will there's a way, no matter where you live.

he also wrote..Are you able to show progress from your methods?

Dave, no-one can do this. The huge amount of records kept gives the illusion of precision. The same methods can have hugely different results within the same class, and youngsters often learn despite the methods used.Keeping a photo log of activities interspersed with examplea of what the kids actually produced, or a selection of their views doea the job. I know schools that do this with condidence, and Ofsted love it.They only hammer people who seem to have little idea of why they are going through these time consuming motions.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Goose Gander
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 12:37 PM

Homeschooling certainly isn't for everyone, but it is an option that must be kept open. Somewhere between no oversight and the total ban enforced by the (nearly always wrong) Germans, there should be a range of possible programs.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 12:43 PM

I've noticed that with a lot of teachers, if the child does well, the teachers take the credit, but if the child doesn't do well, they blame the parents. At least the home schooling parent takes full responsibility for the job they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 06:27 PM

Are you able to show progress from your methods?

Dave, no-one can do this.

So taking a child who can't read to a child who can read. Taking someone, from when they can't speak a foreign language to one who can speak a foreign language? No-one can do this?

Of course you can measure progress in education. Whatever method is used to reach that goal and however long a period, it is possible to measure progress.

It isn't the be all and end all. But don't tell me it isn't possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 06:58 PM

I have a question for you Folkiedave You, I understand have a radio programme promoting folk music. Do the British taxpayers fund the radio station in any way, shape, or form?
Just asking about the dispersal of tax-payers money.

Thanks for your question Sam. Delighted to go into detail.

I do have a radio programme which plays folk music for two hours each week.

I research, produce and present that programme. Takes (at a rough guess) ten to twelve hours per week plus two hours each Friday morning. This week's show will have an interview with Jackie Oates, and music from her, the Unthanks, Dogan Mehmet, the Poozies, Gerry McNeice and The Bowhouse Quintet. It will, when I have decided have a traditional singer, a chorus song and a funny piece. In total about twenty records.

I call artists and their managers, I spend time with interviewees on the telephone and I go to gigs specifically to speak and interview artists. I purchase records specifically to play on the programme. A good example is the latest Topic release. Cost me just over £40.00.

Let me tell you how much I have been paid for this more or less weekly programme in the (coming up to) two years I have been doing it.

Zilch, nothing, nada, nowt.

None of the people who do programmes on the station get paid in anyway shape or form. there are about a hundred of us presenters over a normal week. We play "minority" music and present "minority" programmes. We cover community, sport, folk music, roots music, etc etc.

There are three part-time employees. One is CEO and does training and administration. One does advertising and programming. One does technical things. They get paid around the minimum wage. It is run by a Board of (voluntary) Directors.

The station comes under a whole group of arts organisations locally who receive some funding from a whole host of sources (including minimal funding from the council and hence the taxpayer).

There was some lottery funding for specific projects in the past.

I can't go into great detail because to be honest I don't know fully.

But like most community radio stations we rely on a lot of goodwill and minimal funding.

We are having a painting session this weekend to spruce up the environment of the place. All volunteers and we are bringing our own food to eat, drink to drink and paint to paint. Care to come along?

Now you might thing getting all those programmes and all that work for next to nothing from the taxpayer is bad value for money. Most people would regard it as a very low cost way of providing radio for people who are not normally represented on radio.

But hey ho.........whatever floats your boat.

How do they do things where you live?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 07:07 PM

've noticed that with a lot of teachers, if the child does well, the teachers take the credit, but if the child doesn't do well, they blame the parents. At least the home schooling parent takes full responsibility for the job they do.

And there are some who say that their home educated child with no visible and publicly recognised qualifications, are ignored by employers and blame the employer for misunderstanding their child.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 07:34 PM

Who said that and where? I missed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 07:39 PM

My father and the family thank you for taking way too much time to answer what was basically and yes or no question. Actually things are done very much the same world wide...if you want something you pay for it, that's basic economics.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 07:39 PM

I saw the part where someone said their daughter has to fight twice as hard as other people to get employers to see her because she doesn't have exam results to show them, but it looks like that person also said that their daughter makes a very good impression on prospective employers once she does succeed in getting them to see her (after working twice as hard).

This doesn't look like a complaint to me. It looks like the words of a proud parent bragging about their kid's accomplishments and determination in the face of obstacles. It looks like a parent taking responsibility and credit.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 08:05 PM

I've noticed that with a lot of teachers, if the child does well, the teachers take the credit, but if the child doesn't do well, they blame the parents. At least the home schooling parent takes full responsibility for the job they do.

I don't see Lizzie taking responsibility for fucking up with her children and leaving them dyslexic.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 08:30 PM

Flkuedave said.
So taking a child who can't read to a child who can read. Taking someone, from when they can't speak a foreign language to one who can speak a foreign language? No-one can do this?

FolkieDave, please apply a little intelligence to your reading. Both the examples you give are about teaching, not proof through recording. But even then, no-one knows ezxactly How the learning happens. I worked in a special school where, despite expert tuition, some kids failed to learn to read for years. Some then spurted around adolescence, it wasn't because they suddenly got a teacher who had methods that they could record and give in evidence.
   I could go on endlessly about stories of successes and failures in learning to read, and the possible reasons for this, but simplistic assertions, which you seem to be fond of, have no place.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 09:09 PM

Fucking up her children and leaving them dyslexic?

What the hell is that supposed to mean? As a person with learning disabilities myself, and also as a parent of someone with learning disabilities (someone who, by the way, is doing great in his adult life), I find that to be a profoundly ignorant thing to say.

Parents don't cause their children to be dyslexic (other than contributing their genes), and nobody can make dyslexia or any other learning disability go away. How absolutely bloody ignorant does someone have to be to make such a stupid, judgemental, and self-righteous remark.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Goose Gander
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 11:53 PM

"I don't see Lizzie taking responsibility for fucking up with her children and leaving them dyslexic"

Jack, to put it as bluntly as possible, you are a fucking moron if you think dyslexia in a child is a reflection of anyone's parenting skills. Please take the time to educate yourself about the causes of the condition before you make any more similarly stupid comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 02:24 AM

Seconded (or thirded). I have a son who is dyslexic. Neither of his parents is dyslexic, and nor is his sister. It's just one of those things. Still, maybe I could have really fucked up and made my son black and homosexual as well...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:28 AM

Of course parents don't cause dyslexia but it's a good idea to ensure that a dyslexic child receives the necessary help and support - preferably from properly trained people. Teachers nowadays are tained to spot children with Special Educational Needs (and this includes especially gifted children) and have an obligation to ensure these kids get the support they need in the classroom, even if that means bringing in additional help. Even classroom assistants are now being trained to work with SEN often because, unsurprisingly, their own children have SEN. I suspect that it would be harder for home-educated children to get the level of support they can in schools, but this probably varies from one local authority to another.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:50 AM

"And there are some who say that their home educated child with no visible and publicly recognised qualifications, are ignored by employers and blame the employer for misunderstanding their child."


Right, smart arse, let's get this straight.

The difficulties my daughter has is with the stupid employers who will only accept people into their system 'on line'.....and nowadays there are many dimwits who've chosen this road. They assume that everyone has been 'heducated' the same way, so they don't have any boxes for 'home education' on their internet forms, nor do they have anywhere to explain why you may have *chosen* to take no examinations, because they are part of The System and what they do NOT want is Free-Thinking People working for them, because hell, they might start to complain about the terrible working conditions most of the 'human resources' have to work under.

For your information, my daughter actually has TWO jobs, and not only that, but she was head-hunted by The National Trust when an opportunity arose for her there because they knew her, knew she was intelligent, erudite, kind, trustworthy...and the complete opposite of a vindictive prat, like er.....?....(fill in the blindingly obvious, Dave)....

The people she now works for are big names in 'the world'....and they have fallen over themselves to get her, choosing her above many other applicants, in this Desperate For A Job world.

If you read your newspapers, or use your brain, you'll find that MANY employers are now looking very seriously at home educated people as prospective employees, as they've worked out they are 'different' from the Factory Farm Kids, many of whom are so unhappy and lost that all they want to do is dress like tarts, or tart chasers, and spend most of their waking moments filling their Lost Souls with alcohol, to numb the pain of a short, young life lived entirely in The System, where they are purely their exam results...and not a PERSON!

Gee Whizz, Dave...You drove me nuts on the BBC as 'Folky Grim' but you drive me even more nuts over here, with your campaign to undermine me, my kids, my outlook on life.

You are *exactly* the kind of teacher that drove my daughter almost to the brink of giving up on life.

I fought damn hard to drag her back, DANMED hard...and I can assure you that home education is also bloody hard at times...and no I have never lived off the tax payer during this time, having two jobs myself since being divorced and surviving on one salary, that of my now ex, when I wasn't. I've scrimped and scraped all my life...and I'm the daughter of a man who had to do exactly the same....but you know what, my bloody wonderful Dad taught me what it was to be Loved...and he gave me, without even knowing it, such a strong inner core to my Spirit. It was that spirit that helped me to take the step of removing my daughter from the clutches of people who didn't give a shit about her, and back into a world where she could eventually start to find herself again.

You spoke, earlier in another thread, of some of the adults you teach, with regards to you being a teacher of dyslexic children..and you said that some were former criminals, people with many problems etc...but you haven't realised that the whole damn REASON that they ended up in that world is BECAUSE of the System that you so heartily praise!

If you are told, as a young person, as a small child, that you are lazy, stupid, slow....that you don't try hard when you are actually trying four times bloody harder than anyone else in that room, then you start to get angry!

If you are told off for wriggling in your seat, when wriggling is the only thing that STOPS *your* world from spinning around, as you will undoubtedly have read in your Ronald D. Davis book 'The Gift of Dyslexia' then you will start to become totally confused, even angrier and completely fucked off with a world that does NOT care, despite all it's "Oh, we're SO understanding of dyslexia/dyspraxia/autism/aspergers" charter...

School doesn't give a shit for the round pegs in the square holes, because ALL it wants is square pegs in square holes.


Now grow up and get off my back...because you are starting to look like some kind of stalker.

You will NEVER truly understand dyslexia, because you are not *inside* it. All you try to do is make *us* like *you*, when we were never EVER meant to be like You.

We are all born with different brains, wired up to different places, for different reasons....

School is trying, more than ever before, to wire us all up the same..and when you get crossed wires, you are in danger of an explosion!

That explosion is what is happening 'out there' in School Land.

We are free of it all...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:50 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 07:34 PM

Who said that and where? I missed it.

You did.


Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 12:43 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:05 AM

"Of course parents don't cause dyslexia but it's a good idea to ensure that a dyslexic child receives the necessary help and support - preferably from properly trained people. Teachers nowadays are tained to spot children with Special Educational Needs (and this includes especially gifted children) and have an obligation to ensure these kids get the support they need in the classroom, even if that means bringing in additional help. Even classroom assistants are now being trained to work with SEN often because, unsurprisingly, their own children have SEN. I suspect that it would be harder for home-educated children to get the level of support they can in schools, but this probably varies from one local authority to another."


Total crap, levels, sorry.

At 7 years old my son was being publicly ridiculed for the mistakes in his spelling tests...by his teacher.

Just a few weeks back I went with a friend of mine to help support her talking to her son's teachers, about him being dyslexic. They'd tested him at primary school and found him to be borderline...she disagreed with this result. So did I. I knew ages back that her son is dyslexic, his Mum too.

She had a test done privately, cost her a small fortune..and guess what? Yup, the tests showed her son does have dyslexia, on a greater scale too than she was told by the school.

Interestinly, the school will NOT accept the word of this eminent Educational Psychologist, so they want him to be tested again by their man, who is, of course, the same man who gave him a very short test last time round. The private test last for far, far longer and is far more detailed. But...they don't want to know.

They told her that he had symptoms that 96% of the kids have in their school and didn't really see much to worry about. Her son worries though, he gets desperately worried because he can't keep up, has trouble writing, gets worn out with it, totally worn out (same as my son does, same as my brother did/does)

Ben, another friend's son, who has Aspergers.....found on the outside windowsill of his bedroom, at just 10 years old, wanting to jump off because school was causing him such distress. He doesn't understand other kids, finds being around them deeply stressful etc..etc..etc...and the school did NOTHING!

I told her to take him out, there and then..and she did.

She then home educated him for a while, whilst searching desperately for another school that would take him. They all said the same thing to her, that they couldn't help him in the way he needed because they didn't have the staff, didn't have the money.

She's very lucky though, because her father-in-law is wealthy, and so, he paid for Ben to go into one of the few specialised private schools where they take only high funtioning autistic (asperger) and severely dyslexic children. He's calmed down, a bit...and they don't put pressure on the children to get loads of examns, although they can take them if they so choose.

But..if Ben hadn't had a rich grandpa, he'd probably have jumped off that windowsill by now, just another victim of a System that doesn't give a shit..

I'm not saying that some people within that system don't care, because some of them do, passionately, but The System itself is only geared for square pegs in square holes, and if you are the wrong 'shape' then I'm afraid that life isn't good.

I could tell you other examples too, over and again, the same thing...the quiet, shy, sensitive, overly intelligent, struggling to survive kids...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:14 AM

Gee Whizz, Dave...You drove me nuts on the BBC as 'Folky Grim' but you drive me even more nuts over here, with your campaign to undermine me, my kids, my outlook on life.

Never ever used "Folky Grim". You are clearly thinking of someone else.

I am delighted at your daughter's success - as I am with all the people I have taught. I am always disappointed with those who do not succeed - but I and the rest of the teaching profession aren't perfect.

What I have asked time and time again - without success I might add, is that you share the way you have brought up your children with people who work in this field so that we can all benefit from it, since you clearly believe that you have been succesful and you have made it very very clear - much more succesful than the teaching profession.

By sharing I mean - how you have taught reading, writing, and so on. Maybe you never taught it and your children learnt it by osmosis. Maybe you don't feel that they needed to read and write and didn't bother. All I ask is that you share this with us.

Did you structure the day to make sure certain subjects or learning was covered for example. Having an unstructured day or having a partly structured day or having no structure at all.

Of course you don't have to share your secrets with anyone.

But don't you think that is a little selfish since it is clear that lots of people would (presumably) benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:26 AM

If you read your newspapers, or use your brain, you'll find that MANY employers are now looking very seriously at home educated people as prospective employees,

No I haven't seen that Lizzie. I have Googled to see if I could find where it says that in a newspaper, without any success.

So perhaps you would be kind enough to point me in the direction of articles I have missed so I can judge what they say for myself.

And a quiet word in your ear. Don't believe everything you read in the newspapers.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:40 AM

This is far too complex and important an issue to be reduced to entrenched positions and mudslinging. The one thing we should all agree on is that what ever solution is right for each individual child, the needs of the child are paramount and should always be put before other considerations (parents' ideological positions, prejudices, bete noirs etc).

My son's school is great for average kids. However they are rubbish at meeting the needs of kids with additional learning needs (such as my son who is a bit too young to test but has many of the classic signs of dyslexia) or kids who are especially gifted. Ofsted panned them for it in the last inspection and so far the reaction seems to be to bury their heads in the sand and try to minimise the problems some of the kids have got in order to wish them away.

The rub is, that my son loves going to school. He likes all the class teachers he has had, (and especially likes the teacher who gives him his paltry 20 minutes three times a week of specialist group work), has a great set of pals, gets loads of encouragement and praise for his work etc. The downside is that he is starting to become aware he is falling behind his peers and trying to do the work is something that absolutely exhausts him. Things will probably get worse as spelling tests and so on are introduced.

Personally I wouldn't want to take him out of school - he's got great social skills and a daily opportunity to use them - and also I don't believe I have the knowledge or skills to give him a well rounded education myself. Our solution is to try to find him additional specialist support ourselves - and luckily we're able to manage this financially. We don't want to get him tested for dyslexia privately at this stage because even if the test is the same one used by the LEA, they won't recognise it and will insist on retesting themselves (though there is evidence that the test is less accurate second time around).

To some extent we have to wait and see, and be led by what our son needs. I'm just glad that in spite of the fact he has a school that couldn't manage a special needs budget to save its life, at least he has good, caring, skilled teachers.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:40 AM

While I fall closer to FolkieDave's view than Lizzie's, it is certainly true that 'the System' does not cope at all well with people who follow unconventional paths. My daughter did not take 'A' levels but instead took a BTEC before going to University. On this BTEC she got 5 distinctions and, including her other qualifications, a total of 720 entrance points where the University required 220 as the minimum entrance, so she was accepted with no problem.

While checking up on allowances, bursaries and so on at the end of the second year, she discovered the 'D' distinction grades had been recorded as 'D' 'A' level grades. I.e. instead of 320 points it had been counted as 45. A simple admin error, purely caused because someone entered the Uni by a not-quite-conventional route. How they cope with really unconventional routes can be imagined.



(By-the-by one of my son's is dyslexic, had a hard time in primary but it was spotted in secondary and he has now graduated and has a good job.)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:04 AM

A lesson to be learned there — always put 'Distinction' in full on a form - or at least 'Distnctn' or some such unmistakeable abbreviation, rather than D, which some idiot is liable to misinterpret as clearly happened here.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:09 AM

"I could tell you other examples too, over and again, the same thing"

And I could tell you many, many examples to the contrary. Perhaps we should also celebrate the successes of the educational system instead of just castigating it for its failures. So, you see, what I said is not 'total crap', it's my experience (and that of my children and many others I know) being different from yours. As for the education system turning out clones - well, you couldn't find four more different kids than mine, so that is blatantly untrue.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:10 AM

Spleen Cringe
Do you know what I like about your post!

You are thinking about what's best for your son. You have also recognised that there is a problem.

Far too often parents bury their heads in the sand and class their daughter or son as just being thick and leaving it at that. Or in the worst situation are embarressed or worried about what other people might think, so push it under the counter.

You just fight like hell to get your son diagnosed and then fight like hell to get everything you can that will help your son, through what is the most important time of his life as far as learning is concerned.

My best wishes to you and your son for the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:14 AM

It has been argued that the option to hometeach in the UK is available to everyone

Well in theory I suppose this is correct as there appears to be no minimum requirement as to ability.

In the 'real world' however this option is much more limited.

The Villian says that he is not in an 'elite' (depending on what definition of the word you choose) and makes it evident that he does not have the economic/social advantages normally associated with that term

It is obvious that his academic achievemnts however
"I have teacher training certificates and a very high level of teaching ICT with qualifications to prove it.
As well as that I have studied and spent a lot of time with Autistic specialists."
qualify him very well to take on the task of home education should he choose and, in addition, he has the emotional support of a spouse.

For a single parent the situation is very different .......

It seems likely that we will soon have a new government and, in either event, both major parties seem to be attempting to outdo each other in their cutting back support for single mothers

'Single mothers on benefits will be forced to work parttime once their youngest child reaches the age of four under the first of a series of "tough love" Tory welfare reforms.

Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary Chris Grayling will today unveil proposals requiring primary school parents to seek a job of up to 20 hours a week.
Once their children go to secondary school they must be willing to work full-time, he will insist.
"It's the right thing for them, and for their children,"

David Cameron will flesh out a pledge to strip incapacity benefit from claimants who refuse to look for work.
He has studied Wisconsin in the U.S. which implemented the most aggressive reforms seen in the western world.
They ultimately cut benefit rolls by around 90 per cent.

Mr Cameron's basic approach is expected to be the same, with claimants denied welfare when they decline suitable jobs. Time limits could also be placed on key benefits.'

interview in Dec 2007


A greater percentage of single-parent families than two-parent families in the UK live below the poverty line and this is even higher for single mothers

Economic disadvantage is linked with lower academic achievement and increased behavioral problems among children
Fewer economic resources are also linked with residential instability, which further contributes to children's academic and behavioral difficulties.

Carol has quoted evidence (albeit from an organization with a vested interest) that Home schooled children in America score higher than the average state school pupil.

If one takes into account however that home teaching is more likely to be carried out in redidentially stable households where one parent may not be 'required' to work at the risk of furher economic hardship and has appropiate skills and knowledge to take on this task sucessfully then one might expect better results from education on a one to one basis as opposed to the apalling class sizes in state education

It seems likely therefore that a number of the children tested in state education may come from a wider variety of backgrounds than those of the parents who are able and choose to undertake education at home and who - in many states in America at least - are quite closely monitored in their task.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:33 AM

You are missing the entire point, Dave.

Every single child is different, therefore they need to be taught in different ways. No-one knows their child better than their parent, or at least, that *should* be the case.

My children learnt a great deal themselves, because they *wanted* to.
We are born with a natural desire to learn, it is what makes the baby become a shaky toddler, as he tries to stagger around...it's what makes him realise where his mouth is, so that the food actually gets in there..it's what makes him clasp his fingers tight around something he wants to hold on to, it is what makes him turn his gurgles into words, sounds that he realises his mother is making....

Learning is inside us all. It is as natural a 'mechanism' as breathing, but...it is different in each of us as we become older, because the poet has a natural desire to be a poet, the scientist likewise, the dancer, artist, musician....All follow their paths.

School so often puts NO ENTRY signs on those paths though, forcing children down roads that are scary, frightening and totally alien to them.

We need to remove ALL those signs.

I was the inspiration for them, I am their mother, why should that not be so? Their father was also, both of us still are, in our own ways, but our children have grown older and now make their own decisions, but those decisions always centre around intelligence and kindness.


Leveller....yes, celebrating the success of school is a good thing, but you are missing something terribly important....

The FAILURES are left to fail their whole life through, unless someone picks them up and puts them back on the right road again.

NO school should fail ANY child. It is NOT what they are there for.

I have seen the failures. I have some in my own family. And the sense of terrible self-belief runs so deep that you'd not believe it.
You would not believe how easy it is for school to damage some children beyond repair, because the adult never really lets go of the voice of that teacher who made him feel he was stupid for not getting his maths correct, or stupid for making a grammatical mistake, or stupid simply for not understanding the way in which that teacher chose to teach.

Being a teacher is a HUGE responsibilty..and as I have said before, I have nothing but respect for brilliant teachers. But the ones who damage, those who seek to belittle etc..are nothing more than bullies who have never left the school classroom, because they have worked out that 'being in control' is an open door for them to vent whatever causes their anger, onto innnocent young minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:36 AM

"It is the great triumph of compulsory government monopoly mass schooling that among even the best of my fellow teachers, and among even the best of my students' parents, only a small number can imagine a different way to do things. " - John Taylor Gatto

A quote passed on to me by a Free Thinking Person on this thread...

John Taylor Gatto is an incredible man. An award-winning teacher of 30 years standing, who has had the guts to stand up and say "This is all SO WRONG!"..then set about changing the way many of us have been 'taught' to think.

I have nothing but the deepest admiration for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:39 AM

a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ogCc8ObiwQ">John Taylor Gatto-'STATE CONTROLLED CONSCIOUSNESS on Youtube

This should be watched by every teacher in the world!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:44 AM

... 'and among even the best of my students' parents, only a small number can imagine a different way to do things. " - John Taylor Gatto '

One thing that the Badman report attempts to address is that currently there are NO minimum requirements for home educators

As one EWO wrote on the BBC blog follwing an article about home schooling in the UK

"I'm an Education Welfare Officer working with children and families over school attendance.
Certainly there are home educators who are committed and doing a great job.
But, in my experience, there are a large number who are doing so for the wrong reasons and who do not have the skills to do so,
e.g. because they can't get the school of their choice; or can't get their child to school and are facing prosecution; or their relationship with school has broken down.
And often these parents are from poor educational backgrounds themselves.

But as the law allows all parents to home educate their children -not just the committed few - monitoring is vital to pick up those who aren't able to do so.'

A 'different' way of doing things may not necessarily be the 'best'

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:55 AM

Fucking up her children and leaving them dyslexic?

What the hell is that supposed to mean? As a person with learning disabilities myself, and also as a parent of someone with learning disabilities (someone who, by the way, is doing great in his adult life), I find that to be a profoundly ignorant thing to say.

Parents don't cause their children to be dyslexic (other than contributing their genes), and nobody can make dyslexia or any other learning disability go away.

Oh yes they CAN make it go away, insofar as it ceases to be much of an impediment to communication. There are several very effective ways of dealing with dyslexia - it's not a single condition, so you need to tailor the approach to the child. Results can be anything from outright cure (as when it's caused by some undiagnosed visual problem) to a whole battery of complex workarounds. Some schools have specialist units for it, resourced with all the equipment needed for any appropriate approach. Giving up on dyslexic kids and regarding them as academically ineducable is not one of their options, but it seems to be the one Lizzie has gone for.

(My girlfriend's son is so severely dysgraphic he can't write a shopping list and expect to read it himself. He went to a school that had useful ideas about workarounds - not all the ones I'd have liked them to try, but it worked well enough that's he's got a PhD and now a manager in the UK civil service earning twice as much as either Marion or I have ever made in our lives).

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:03 AM

Any teacher that uses the word "Stupid" to a child needs a big kick up the arse and sent packing.

Nobody is stupid. Some people need different ways of being taught. That is a skill good teachers have.

Some people can sit in front of a computer and learn lessons on the websites or CD/DVD's

Others need a teacher to be there to give them hands on help, when they do not understand something.

The skill of a teacher, is to understand the person and explain things in a way that the person understands. My daughter becuase of her disability learns best when a new subject is introduced with visual aids and very basic ways of putting that over. I used to call that "getting down to the level of the person you are teaching".

Far too often, poor teachers talk over the heads of some people. Sometimes I swear blind that is done on purpose to try and hide their inabilties to teach. They basically and I think deliberately make the person being taught feel stupid, becuase they do not understand. The person then feels too stupid to ask questions and consequently doesn't learn.

In my life I have seen many very good teachers, not just in the school environment who have the gift for teaching, that paperwork and sticking to lesson plan will never beat. Oh just in case, I also have the D32/D33 assessors award (which is probably different now).

Two people who were not teaching in a school environment spring to mind in terms of having the gift to work and teach with children and fortunately they are not restricted by all the unecessary paperwork.

They didn't know I was assessing them at the time, I just did it on the spur of the moment as I saw them working with children.

Both of these will be known by Lincolnshire folkies.

The first is a very talented young man who is a folkie through and through and called Liam Robinson. I watched him as he did a party specially for my autistic daughter. There were about 20 children there. Within a minute he had the children listening intently to every word he spoke and every thing that he was showing and teaching to them. I haven't seen that sort of talent in many people. He is so good, I get him to go to a special need school every so often. They think he is brillant.

The other person teaches singing for a child choir which my daughter went to. I was invited to stay for the first evening to make sure things would be Ok for my daughter. This lady is called Sue Heron, who plays in a Ceildh Band called the Little Band. The way she was teaching these children and including them all was nothing short of inspirational.

They would be excellent role models to show how to engage and teach to young people.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:15 AM

My children learnt a great deal themselves, because they *wanted* to.

Ok Lizzie so you can't tell us how you taught your children. That's fair enough - but it might be a good idea if you had no role other than that of a caring mother - that you stopped banging on as if you know a lot about education. You clearly don't know much except how to criticise the education system.

Every single child is different, therefore they need to be taught in different ways. No-one knows their child better than their parent, or at least, that *should* be the case

I agree that every child is different and I agree they need to be taught in different ways.

But you also have to know what those different ways are. And recognise different learning styles. And you have to be able to share your successes and examine your failures. Since you clearly have had no failures I thought you might like to tell us the secret of your successes.

Clearly you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:15 AM

"Being a teacher is a HUGE responsibilty..and as I have said before, I have nothing but respect for brilliant teachers. But the ones who damage, those who seek to belittle etc..are nothing more than bullies who have never left the school classroom, because they have worked out that 'being in control' is an open door for them to vent whatever causes their anger, onto innnocent young minds."

Yes, but the opposite is also true. Teachers also have the task of having to deal with the problems created by parents who have totally screwed up their children by the time they get to school. My daughter's teacher was discussing this with mrsleveller only the other day. It is, by no means, an isolated problem. Teachers have to have training and qualifications and are constantly supervised. Parents, on the other hand, need no more qualifications than the ability to reproduce.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:00 AM

Some contributors have shared their experience of home education in America.

As has been pointed out, fifty states have allowed homeschooling and have provided laws for its implementation; nevertheless, many   states require that the parent can show some kind of records to show that they are providing adequate homeschooling for their children.

These are some reccomedations from an American site devoted to home schooling resources.

1. Daily Lesson Plans

show what subjects you have taught to your children. They will also show the way your children's lessons are progressing (from basic to intermediate to advanced).

..... could be important for school officials to learn what could be lacking from your schooling and in what area they could help you with.

2. Time Spent For Each Subject

Time spent for each subject is an indication of what subjects you have focused on and what subject your children might be having some problem absorbing

3. Diaries and Journals Updated Regularly

This can prove helpful in two ways. The first is you can keep track of what areas your children have already studied.
The second way it can help is that it will help you in knowing where your children are having an easy time and where they need more time and attention

4. Grades

Grades are more concrete records of your children's progress and proof can be proof of your children's achievements.

5. Portfolios

a collection of your children's works, from their exercises to their tests and anything that they have done while schooling.
For your older children.... other things that could be included are science tests and experiments and, if possible, a picture of your children's science projects.

6. Standardized Tests

There are several reasons why you would want your children to take a standardized test; including to help you with regards to subjects your children are having difficulty with.


Some structure for a learning experience when 'Love' is not enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:33 AM

And if an able and experienced educator concludes from a lifetime in the field that grades, standardised tests, lesson plans, set times for subjects etc. are precisely the problem.......

extensive reading list available for this, but Start with 'Dumbing us Down' by John Taylor gatto.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:53 AM

"And if an able and experienced educator concludes from a lifetime in the field that grades, standardised tests, lesson plans, set times for subjects etc. are precisely the problem.......
"

I'm not clear what the relevance of this is. Are you saying that the answer to flaws in the education system is for everyone to educate their children at home...or simply pointing out that there are deficiencies, with which many people, teachers included, would probably agree?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:58 AM

Some of you know that I adopted my son when he was nine. He was a foster child with me for a year.

That first year as a ward of the state he had to attend a school selected by the state. He was in a special ed program in a "normal" school. This meant first that he could never be accepted by the "normal" kids although his learning delays were mostly emotionally based. It also meant that his gym class consisted of throwing a basketball against a classroom wall - they didn't let the "retards" mix with the "normal" students in gym - too dangerous.
The worst of it was that they had no suitable class for him and he ended up in a room of 7 students all severely autistic. He had been abused (too long and too horrible to recount) in foster care for years so when an autistic child became upset and had to be physically restrained for his own protection, my son saw abuse and was terrified. I fought to have him put into a Special Ed school where he would have a more appropriate placement and safer environment but was threatened with losing him - adoption is an ugly business in NYC.

The day his adoption was finalized I removed him from that school and put him in the Summit program at my own expense. It cost as much as college at the time. Fortunately, I made very good money at the time and adoption was subsidized despite my refusing the money. another weird story. He tested at a pre-kindergarten level in September and at a 4th grade level in November. He went from being unable to count to 20 or recite the alphabet to doing simple algebra and reading.

Two key factors were in place - first he was safe and loved; second, he was in a learning environment where he was told he was smart and bright - that had never happened before. He thrived. And when he failed at a subject we found ways to help him learn while making him realize that this did not make him a bad os stupid person. His strong points were encouraged; hisweaknesses dealt with without obsessing on them.

My son was not a candidate for home school. He needed constant social interaction, constant physical activity, and to be independent in a secure environment.The public school teachers, as far as I could see, were either burned out or too disinterested to care. One told me (I had called at about 3:30 to discuss an incident on the bus) "My day ends at 3PM" Contrast that to the Summit School teachers who called me regularly over school vacations and the summer to see if he was staying on track.

My point? There are first rate schools with first rate teachers who provide an exciting, interesting learning environment in a school setting. There are also the dregs. Parental involvemnet is the key. A recent documentary on PBS followed the placement of a new principal in a failing school. It took a few years, but with the same student and parent group in a poor neighborhood, she managed to turn around the entire atmosphere and results in the school. It was fascinating. She involved the parents, even went door to door introducing herself to each of them. A special lady and ome very lucky children.

Watching her interact with her charges was fascinating especially when she was dealing with problems.

By the way, after years of lawsuits I won my case and my son's education was paid at Summit by the state.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 09:19 AM

A US Homeschooler's views with humor:

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/09/28/confessions_homeschooler/

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 09:52 AM

"Parental involvemnet is the key."

How very, very true.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 10:30 AM

I don't think anyone, even those expressing the cons of home education against the rather uncritical and extravagant claims made by some advocates, are suggesting that it should be illegal; the original discussion, on another thread, revolved around the proposal in the UK for a minimum standard of registration and some accountability.

From a personal viewpoint, I believe that it should require registration and monitoring to ensure a minimum standard of 'ability' including a vist (with due notice as Badman recommends) to the learning environment - however much parents may protest this to be an invasion of 'privacy'

I know two children, educated in the state system who, as teenagers, are well rounded intelligent young people who, with minds of their own, are a delight to talk to as an adult and who have a wide and mutually caring group of peers.
Their parents recognized the need for involvement with the school and their mother was a parent governor for many years.

Of course there are 'failing' or underperforming schools* and some very failed parents

As has been pointed out the ability to reproduce is no guarantee of either good parenting or educating.


*like Stretford High
More than a third of Stretford High School's pupils are eligible for free school meals, English is a second language for nearly half of them, many parents are unemployed and the existing system in the LA creams off the top 30 to 40 per cent of pupils each year to grammar schools.
from The head who turned around a failing school... report in The Independent January 2008

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 10:57 AM

LOL
involvement

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 11:00 AM

But it brings up a question:
Those of you who home school because your children were not able to learn in a classroom environment - what did you do when your children came home and said that a teacher told they were stupid? Or that they were ridiculed for poor spelling?

And how do you teach your children to deal with the negative people and situations they are bound to come across in life?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 11:28 AM

Leveller asked

And if an able and experienced educator concludes from a lifetime in the field that grades, standardised tests, lesson plans, set times for subjects etc. are precisely the problem.......
"

I'm not clear what the relevance of this is. Are you saying that the answer to flaws in the education system is for everyone to educate their children at home...or simply pointing out that there are deficiencies, with which many people, teachers included, would probably agree?

No, Homeschooling isn't the answer for all, but if they exist they should not adopt the worst weaknesses of the state system...prescribed curriculum, testing, grading etc. The present system of testing in the UK is formalised child abuse ( kids really do show psychosomatic symptoms, anxiety, bed wetting etc) and kills curiosity.
   I have known some wonderful schools, both within and outside the state system, and my preference is for humaistic scholing. However, I have also known many who would have been better off not going to school at all, especially with formal instruction at four years old. The system can be improved, see the Finnish system, or the danish folk schools, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 11:39 AM

The present system of testing in the UK is formalised child abuse ( kids really do show psychosomatic symptoms, anxiety, bed wetting etc) and kills curiosity.


More hyperbole
I live in the US and know healthy happy children thriving in the state schools in the UK. Why not concentrate on what is right and working rather than zero in on individual situations that are the problem.
Do you really mean that no one comes out of the UK school system emotionally happy and intellectually curious? No one reads a book after leaving school in the UK?
The system can be improved, no doubt but "formalized child abuse"? Maybe just a bit over the top?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 11:40 AM

My experience has been that in the US, at least, most schools and teachers don't know how to spot someone who is gifted and learning disabled, and they couldn't really give a crap anyway. They prefer to blame it on the kid and say the kid has an attitude problem. A lot of gifted/LD kids fall through the cracks that way, and they end up frustrated, confused, and they have no self-esteem or self-confidence whatever. And they never learn how to compensate for their learning disability. That was why I had to pull my kid out of school and start home schooling him.

Even after my son was evaluated and found to be gifted/LD, and a plan was drawn up to help him, some of the teachers even refused to implement the plan. They said they were going to do it their way, and their way was to treat it as an attitude and behavior problem.

A lot of teachers (in the US, at least), care more about protecting their turf than they do about helping kids. I see some evidence of that here in this thread from at least one UK teacher, so I suspect this is a problem in the UK, also.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 11:50 AM

In reference to my post in which I said I missed something that was quoted from another poster, the person who tried to show me where I missed it got it wrong. I didn't miss what I said myself. I missed the part about the parent complaining that employers don't understand their kid. And I discovered, after saying that I had missed it, that I didn't miss it at all, because it's just not there. Someone was mischaracterizing what was said by another poster.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 11:56 AM

And by the way, my son was another child who was expressing suicide thoughts and making suicide gestures because of school. By the time he was in kindergarten (school for 4 and 5 year olds), he was coming home from school and saying, "I hate my life. I wish I was dead". By the time he was 7, I found him one day with a rope wrapped around his neck and he was pulling tight on it and saying he wanted to kill himself. He never did that again after I got him out of the schools that were abusing him so badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 11:56 AM

"More hyperbole"

I think that, in speaking from our own experiences, several of us have been guilty of appearing to project this to the entire system, despite our qualifications. What HAS become pretty obvious from the debate is that there is a yawning gap between the best and worst of state schools and, I assume, between the best and worst teachers. If the worst could be brought closer to the best, would those advocates of home schooling be more inclined to send their children to state schools?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 11:56 AM

Agreed, Carol. My experience was the same. But our children were exceptional. The majority of children survive or thrive in the system and in fact would not do as well in a home school environment. The social aspects of school are critical for them - sports, glee club, sleepovers, dances, etc. That too is part of education - learning to survive and function in the world.

For most it is in no way abusive.

It is a shame that the valid opinions of a teacher who knows more about the system and how it functions than any of us should be dismissed as protecting his turf. There are valid arguments both for formalized classroom education and for home schooling. It is not a "them or us" business. Why not share and accept opinions and ideas as having some validity?

Dismissing a man who has devoted his life to teaching our children as a participant in systematic child abuse is way out of line.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:13 PM

theleveller,
You bring up an excellent point. In the US at least powerful teachers' unions protect the worst. Everytime it is suggested that teachers be themselves tested to be sure they are up to date on new methods as well as material, the union fights it. Everytime the suggestion is made that there be rewards for good teachers measured in for example how many students graduate, the unions fight it. Tenure is another problem. What other job guarantees that you can stay no matter what your performance?

Why not reward the best teachers and set goals for those not performing to standard and hold them to it?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:18 PM

Nobody can make dyslexia or any other learning disability go away. I know this because I have multiple learning disabilities myself. I've lived with them all of my life so far, and I will continue to live with them for the rest of my life.

What can be done is to help people find ways to compensate for their learning disabilities. I have not seen the poster with the dyslexic child say that their child has not learned how to compensate for their dyslexia, so the accusation that they have fucked up with their kids seems pretty spurious to me.

And as I said above, many schools don't help kids with learning disabilities learn how to compensate for them. Some of them just don't care, some of them don't have the budget or enough staff, and some of them think they know best and in their judgment, it is the fault of the child and/or the parent that the child is not performing up to the standard that the school thinks they should.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:25 PM

I was not required to do anything by the state where I lived when I was home schooling. I kept very good records because of the court case that was brought against me (for doing something that was perfectly legal). My experience of home schooling families, however, has been that each has their own style of teaching/learning. Some keep records and some don't. But all of the kids I have met who were being home schooled were thriving in that environment. This is because nobody makes the commitment to home school if they don't have the dedication to do a good job of it. Lazy parents don't home school. That's just a fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:27 PM

As far as I can tell, all of us who have experienced this problem now have adult children. It is too bad we have not heard from parents with young children in school or home school now. I may be wrong but I do believe that teachers are more atune to both disabilities and exceptionally bright children than they were even ten years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:34 PM

For anyone who thinks I am saying that everyone should home school, or that all public school situations are bad, I would suggest they read my posts again. I have come right out and said that I think parents should do for their kids what they think is best, including keeping them in schools if that's where they think their child would do best. But keeping home schooling as an option is imperative. And letting the parents decide how to home school rather than dictating how it should be done is also imperative.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:36 PM

I think "protecting their turf" is a perfectly valid characterization of someone who thinks that they know better than the parents what is good for their children.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:37 PM

And by the way, please show me where I have accused anyone in this thread of systematic child abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 12:59 PM

Carol - calm down go back and read all my posts. No one has accused you of anything. No one as far as I can see has disagreed with your view that parental participation in the classroom is critical and home schooling is a valid option.

This discussion is not about you. It is about people's opinions about home schooling.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 01:02 PM

Carol Sarler is an outspoken and contoversial free lance journalist

She is no fan of Schools secretary Ed Balls but, in response to the proposal to register home educators writes -


"If only this once, Ed Balls is quite right to propose regular, rigorous checks on everyone who educates children out of school, in exactly the same way that we check on those who educate within them.

He'll have his hands full, mind. Not only do we not know how many children are tutored at home - estimates vary from 20,000 to 80,000 - but the adults involved have a tendency to be proselytising zealots.

A quick flick through websites over the past few days finds them howling with outrage at Balls's plan.

You'd think the last bastion of British freedom was under attack. We can all see why parents are critical of some of our schools: bullying, knives, drugs and shocking exam results are off-putting.
But we can't all see - certainly I can't - how they conclude that the answer is simply to opt out.


.... if the interests of children are paramount, I do not believe those interests can be properly served by home schooling.

For a start, unless they are the rarest of polymath, it is hard to credit that one person can adequately teach all subjects.

One parent airily told me that it's only a matter of 'keeping one chapter ahead' in the textbooks, but you still have to be able to understand that chapter yourself.

From history to French to chemistry? All the way to A level?

In an effort to do precisely that, many home schoolers become obsessive

One thing that all home schoolers will tell you, smug to get it in before you ask, is that their children aren't isolated. Far from it. They go to great lengths to make sure they interact with other children.
I'm sure they do. But, crucially, the playmates are, of necessity, chosen by the parents.

There's no chance for their children - as there is for those who attend the big, wide pool of a school - to pick or choose 'unsuitable' friends and to learn, perhaps the hard way, how to evaluate other people"


........ Just another opinion

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 01:11 PM

That is one thing I have observed in the few home schooled children I have known. Their social skills were limited. Whether that was homeschooling or learning disabilities, I don't know.

But at some point each of us has to learn how to deal with a world that is not always supportive or accepting.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 01:12 PM

I can't quote posts, but I saw a post that began with my name and ended with the accusation that it is way out of line to dismiss someone who devoted their life to teaching as being a participant of systematic child abuse. I don't need to go back and read anything again, and I don't need to calm down. I would suggest finding a way to make it clear when a post stops being directed at one specific named person and becomes one that is more generally directed.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 01:20 PM

The best way for a child with learning disabilities to learn how to deal with a world that is not always supportive and caring is to instill in that child a very strong sense of self-esteem and self-confidence. This is something that only happens over a span of many years. When a child is thrown into a situation where their self-esteem and self-confidence is chipped away at and beaten down every single day for 12+ years, they will emerge from the school experience with absolutely no skills for coping with a world in which people are not always supportive and caring.

It's only by having a strong sense of self-worth and confidence in oneself that people are able to have a healthy and balanced approach to dealing with the larger world. The only way to instill such a strong sense of self-worth and confidence is to provide the child with opportunities to develop a success mentality. This is not done by setting the child up to fail as is so often done in schools with kids who are learning disabled.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 01:38 PM

I agree. I and a number of parents in the same boat were frequently in the principal's office making it clear what sort of criticism of my child was acceptable and what was not. It is amazing how quickly a teacher who needs guidance will tow the line after a trip to the principle's office, a letter and the vague threat of a lawsuit.

Once I placed my son in Summit, these trips were unnecessary but I stayed involved pretty much daily.

Thank you to the Mudcatters who are sharing their experiences with me via PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 01:46 PM

Well, my experience has been that there are a lot of teachers who do whatever the hell they want regardless of what the principal says. Believe me, I spent enough time in principals' offices to know this personally. And there are a lot of principals who take their teachers' side no matter what, and any parent who actively advocates for their child in the school gets labeled a trouble maker and then the school digs in even harder to resist the parent.

Listen, nobody in the history of schools has worked harder than I have to advocate for a child in the school setting. Some people get lucky and find principals and teachers who are sympathetic and supportive. But most do not, and if one reads what support organizations for children who are learning disabled or gifted/learning disable have to say about it, my experience is far more common than the experience of having sympathetic and supportive principal and teachers.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 01:47 PM

And I didn't have access to a school like Summit. Most people don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 02:08 PM

My children, once I got them out of school were free to learn what they wanted.

I did not keep to the National Curriculum because I don't have to. And can someone please tell me why the **** I would WANT to keep to a system that had caused my daughter, (son too, but for a shorter time because I took him out at 7)...caused my daughter to give on learning and practically want to give up on life.

YOU do not own my children! THEY do not own my children! I do not own my children!

There is absolutely no way on this earth that 'educators' know what is best for my children, because...they do not KNOW my children and want to put them into a class of 30/40 kids to be educated.

Tell me, would you 'allow' a mother to have 30/40 children? No! There'd be an absolute outrage..(and yes, I'm just 'supposing' here, not going on medical facts)..You'd all be saying "It's outrageous! How can ONE woman POSSIBLY look after 40 children at once!" and an investigation would be under way, children taken away from her, etc...etc..etc...

But you are sending your kids in every day to be looked after by one person in charge of dozens of kids...

Why?

Why can some of you not see that school is not compulsory in order for us to be human beings?

Why do some of you want to live your lives in such a regimented way, constantly told by others what is best for you?

I have raised two children, two beautiful children who became deeply disturbed by what was happening around them at 'school', the place where they had to spend the majority of their day...a place they loathed.

Maybe it's because I've lost two 'souls' that I understand how incredibly precious our children are and that no prattish upstart has any 'rights' over my children.

I am no bloody zealot!

My daughter was in the BLOODY SYSTEM for over 10 years, and it almost killed her! It left her curled up in the foetal position, on her bedroom floor, unable to speak!   And when I found out that yet again, it was a bloody teacher, this time one who'd told her beloved art work was 'crap' (the word used)....when I thought of the terrible stress she was already being put under for her GCSEs....and the state it had reduced her to, by a group of people who didn't CARE, a rage was born inside me that will never EVER subside!

I have 'rescued' other kids from the system, who were feeling so similar to my children....quiet, gentle children.

Children are free spirits...They are born free, all of us are, but the Control Freaks have now got such a hold on so many of us, that the majority cannot and will not see that school is a modern day invention, comparitively, that has become a monster out of control!

I abhor the way some regard me, my fellow home educators....

I was backed up 150% by my Education Welfare Officer, who felt that what I was doing was absolutely bloody wonderful, because he saw the kids that the system had damaged beyond repair, kids who didn't want to learn, kids he HAD to give 5 hours a day of 'education' to, when they didn't want to learn, because so much damage had already been done to them.

My brother came from a warm, loving family....and he had much love in his early years. It was school that damaged him, utterly and completely, because he was a severely dyslexic lad, struggling against a tide of so-called 'intelligent' teachers who couldn't see WHO he was.

So many teachers refuse to SEE the child inside, often, these days, because they do not have the time. Shit, they don't even have the time to go back over a maths problem!

The system is complete shit. Those who support it I have no respect for, because they are aiding and abetting the emotional abuse, through stress and humiliation, of many young people! If YOU had to now endure in your adult lives, what many children are STILL having to endure in their lives, you'd be taking legal action, left, right and centre.

Do not tell me how to live my life, because I do not tell you how to live yours. Do not tell me how to educate my children, because I do not tell you how to educate yours.

We spoke to the dear woman who started Education Otherwise...and she was the woman who gave me the courage to take a huge step in my life!
She endured being 'hunted down' by the Authorities, when she removed her child from school, her daughter, who was having severe problems. In those days, it was illegal, so down they swooped! She went into hiding, in Scotland...Her anger grew so deep, because of the way she was hounded by people who wanted her child back in their clutches, despite her being so disturbed by them.

And so, she found the loophole, of a parent being allowed to educate their child 'otherwise' and many children's lives were saved.

Sign up to their site, get their magazine, read the many wonderful stories of success, the many terrible stories of near death, the heartache as people worry themselves inside out, the stress they go through, the anger, the determination...and the help they are all offered by these wonderful people who CARE in a way that schools cannot even start to comprehend.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 02:16 PM

From the PMs I am receiving most are finding that their schools/teachers recognize disabilities and that these children need special help BUT lack of funds and resources prevents the child from getting the services he needs.

There are very few Summits. In fact, Summit no longer serves my son's population. They specialize in gifted/talented/learning disabled children. They use to take severely retarded children as well as those with emotional problems or diseases such as Tourette's. No more.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 02:19 PM

Would anyone here disagree that a child needs to learn to read, write and do basic math in order to function as an adult?

Surely, a parent who is homeschooling a child should be expected to provide these basic - no?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 02:28 PM

I seriously doubt that anyone could find a parent that has made the commitment to home school their child who would not make sure they learned to read, write, and do basic math. As I said before, people who home school kids are not lazy parents or neglectful parents. Even just having them at home all day every day is more work than sending them off to school, even if nothing is done with them the whole time. People who don't care about their childrens' education don't home school.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 02:42 PM

I was responding to this, Carol:
"My children, once I got them out of school were free to learn what they wanted.

I did not keep to the National Curriculum because I don't have to."

Other than building walls, Lizzie has not provided any other description of her curriculum. And once again she is off and running with "Everybody says I am wrong" when in fact it appears that everyone said she is right to homeschool if it is her choice. Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 03:15 PM

I, for once, am in complte agreement with Lizzie. In fact, I would like to take it a step furter. This wonderful school where one outdated fasion (ties) is replaced with pirate shirts; where 'rubbish lessons' are replaced with good ones (exactly who decided which is which is a hurdle - but one I am sure someone will help us overcome) and where everyone emerges unable to use conventional furniture has a lot going for it. In fact, if we get enough such well thought out lateral ideas we could even get substantial funding from Harringay or Manchester councils. Come the revolution brothers and all teachers, doctors and other such conventional subverters of our children will go to the wall. Worked well enough in Cambodia.

Ooooh. I am all excited now. I feel a song coming on...

This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius, age of Aquarius...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 03:19 PM

Dave,
May I please have some of whatever you are smoking? LOL irate shirts? Isn't that a uniform?
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 03:39 PM

Pirate - OOPS

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 03:39 PM

Do not tell me how to educate my children, because I do not tell you how to educate yours.

At no point have I for one told you how to educate your children and I have constantly asked to share with hte rest of us how you have educated them.

So far, apart from telling us they learnt a lot themselves - nothing.

Clearly you have a wonderful technique. Why not share it with those you have constantly denigrated in post after post after post? I am sure there would be many who would love to hear how it is done.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 03:42 PM

Why should I, Sinsull? How I taught my children is private, to be honest...

No, I didn't have a 'curriculum'....Gawd, what a horrid word that is.
Learning doesn't happen by 'curriculum'.....Learning is fun. It's aboutu reading books, getting your imagination to grow. It's about lying on the beach at night, looking up at the stars, seeing how many constellations you can find...and name...(the kids always did better than I, 'cos I can't remember the names!) LOL...although now, everyone will come down screeching..."You can't REMEMBER names and you're teaching your own children?!"

Yup! :0)

My kids learnt in a very laid back way...and yes, learning is by osmosis. Josh learnt to add up and subtract pretty darn quickly when I told him that he might lose out on his change, in shops, if he didn't know what the correct amount should be...heck, was that an incentive for him! Big smile. He knows what's what. He can find anything on the computer in seconds, he's an absolute whizz on it...

He'll always struggle to write, but....as my Education Welfare Officer said, "Don't worry about it, it just means he'll use a computer even better!"

My EWO knew what was important in life. He'd been a teacher, so had his wife. She was then in a terrible car crash, paralysed from the neck down. He had to give up teaching to care for her, and filled in with his EWO job when she was in respite care during the day for a few hours.   

His wife was..and still is, a very erudite lady, just takes a little longer to get the words out these days. We went to have tea with them both one day...and that's when Richard gave Nonny his National Geographic collection. They both felt terribly sad about what has happened in schools these days.

They have three children, all grown..and they're desperately worried about their son and his wife, as they're already starting to *push* their children. They're moving house to get into the 'right' school and they can see nothing wrong with the homework their children are getting, despite their youngest being just 6 years old.

6 years old and homework???????????????????????

They've become 'serious' parents, 'seriously serious' about their children's 'education'.

It's all crap, of course.

The more laid back you are, the more your children learn.   If you remove the stresses, then learning become fun again. Note that I say learning and NOT 'edukayshun'.....because 'edukayshun' sucks, quite frankly.

We've become like the Japanese, who happily pushed their children into suicide, such were the pressures on them to 'achieve achieve achieve'

It's all a load of baloney, put upon folks by Corporate Edukayshon Bastards who are out to make more and more money from anxious parents and anxious kids.

Of course, we've also now got the Prom Day over here, which is yet another way to make loadsa money from kids...evening dress hire, hairdo's, presents, 'orrid common stretch limo's..champagne flowing over...

Yeesh!

And then there are....the school TRIPS! Yes, those fun times when the travel agents make loadsa money out of poverty stricken parents who are almost forced into finding the money to send Little Johnny to Russia for 5 days, because if he doesn't go, he'll be scarred for life, not just because he'll be ribbed by his peers, but because he'll NEVER have the opportunity to do this ever again...apparently!

Yes, you can even be reported, or sent to prison for taking your child on holiday! Great isn't it! :0) Forget the fact that kids learn FAR more on a two week holiday in Greece, than in Class 4b, 4th floor of Factory Farms R Us. Oh no, no, no, that doesn't come into it! The whole point is that those who now DICTATE what your children should learn, how they should behave, how they should live, do not want children to lose 'valuable' schooling, because..guess what..and this is a real rib-tickler..because if you have the bloody audacity to take your child on holiday OUT of the alloted time, then your child will NEVER catch up! Yes! LOL! That's the official line of guilt to pour upon the poor parent....My God, the damage you can do by taking your child on holiday! HOW can I/we have never SEEN this before?!   Why didn't we realise?   All those trips to Wales and Devon as a child, no homework books packed, no thought of school in my head, or in my parents heads either..

No WONDER I am as I am!   LOLOL

We have all been bullied senseless by Control Freaks, who have now created a system so stressful that marriages are breaking apart over it....Why? Well, here's what happens...

First, the child implodes. They can't cope. They begin to realise that they can't deal with all the work, and to be honest, they don't want to do it either, so they start to kick up a stink, to the very people who are sending them there...

The parents, of course, NEED to have perfect children so that they can tell each other how well Little Johnny is doing at school ("So much better than YOUR child, Mrs. Higginbottom!") because that way they can tell themselves that they really ARE doing the absolute best for Little Johnny.

Little Johnny kicks out harder...and he starts to have a real problem with ALL adults, because hey, they're bastards who want you to do nothing but work, work, work...at a time in your life when all you want to do is play, play, play....

Mum starts to argue with him....tells him to do his work. He takes no notice. Dad has a word with him....it gets even worse..doors bang, shouts ensue, unhappiness abounds.

Mum shouts at Dad, Dad shouts at Mum, Little Johnny shouts at everyone! But they carry on saying "Oh, he's doing AWFULLY well at school you know! He's studying SO hard.."

Amd the cracks get deeper and deeper and the unhappiness grows stronger and stronger...

But hey....edukayshun's important, innit? We know this, 'cos we've been told...

It never used to be this way folks...you're all being taken for SUCH a ride, but never mind, you all carry on with your National Curriculum and your shouts of "Tie The Home Educators Down to Rules and Regulations!"..and we'll carry on helping our children to learn in a quiet, relaxed, caring environment.




"Education of the mind without education of the soul, is no education at all" - Aristotle...

'They' are stealing our children's souls.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:00 PM

Beam me up Scottie. There is no intelligent life down here.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:03 PM

"It is too bad we have not heard from parents with young children in school or home school now. I may be wrong but I do believe that teachers are more atune to both disabilities and exceptionally bright children than they were even ten years ago. "

I have a nine-year old daughter in school. She has SEN which have been recognised and she has been put on the gifted and talented register in two subjects. There are other children in her class wh
have different SEN and they, too, are receiving the help appropriate to their needs. The school has recognised their varying requirements and has taken the correct action, in discussion with the parents. Yes, I certainly believe that things have greatly improved in the last 10 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:15 PM

"6 years old and homework?"

Well... yes, actually. My six year old gets "homework"... what this actually means once all the hot air and hyperbole is removed, is that the school encourages parents to do stuff like reading and drawing and writing and finding out about new things with their kids. Because, sadly, some parents don't bother. Can you explain to me how this is going to hurt my son, please? Especially as - despite his difficulties - he wants to learn new stuff?

I think if people want to home educate, and they have the knowledge and skills, that's their choice and right. However, what I can't stomach is reading reams and reams of abuse and derision aimed at those of us who make different choices, as if we're lower forms of life and as if we don't care about our kids. It's patronising, insulting, alienating and plain wrong.

So Lizzie, please give it a rest. Or at least learn how to communicate your enthusiasms without putting down those of us who don't share your views.

I'm done. I'd rather put my energy into helping my son learn than into these frustrating "discussions".

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:26 PM

I like the idea of irate shirts. Another one to add to my list of lateral ideas. Thanks Sins.

BTW, just what IS a pirate shirt? I have a blue and cream hoopy breton type thing and a short sleeved one with a flaming skull emblazoned front and back. Which one do I chose? Can I wear them with cut off pants or is that a fasion faux-pas? And what about headgear? Bandana or Jack Sparrow type hat? Decisions, decision...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:28 PM

I remember someone at the start of this thread saying that those who home educated were largely 'neurotic obsessional cranks'. I never used to think so.........

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:32 PM

Jane, I love you.

DeG - I thought it was one of those "puffy shirts" that Seinfeld wore, all ruffles and poofs. Something to buckle your swash into.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:34 PM

I would be willing to bet money that things have not improved significantly in the last ten years in many rural parts of the US, and also in school systems that don't have sufficient resources.

There is a stark difference in the quality of education between some school systems in the US and others. When my son was having so much trouble with schools, we were living in a fairly isolated, rural and mountainous area. The first school he went to had only one class per grade and the teachers ruled the school while the principal stayed in his office and stayed out of trouble. The second had a better principal, and some of the teachers were better (and some weren't), but none of them had the training or the resources to provide my son what he needed.

After I home schooled him for about a year, my ex-husband moved to a major metropolitan area that has one of the best education systems in the US. We decided that we should give those schools a try and see if that would help. They were far better than the previous schools. They didn't really address his problems the way they needed to be addressed, but they did provide a very enriching environment where the teachers were far less abusive, and he was able, with quite a lot of help from me, and a lot of blood, sweat, and tears, to graduate with a high school diploma. It sufficed, but I wouldn't say he thrived by any stretch of the imagination.

Because of what I had taught him bout never giving up on himself, and never letting anyone tell him he wasn't entitled to whatever help he needed (legally entitled), he was able to advocate for himself fairly well when he went to college and then to university, and he did much better there, and graduated with a bachelors degree.

Computers made all the difference in the world for him as well, because one of his disabilities has to do with writing by hand. He can do it with no problems, but there is a processing deficit that makes it take longer for him than it does for other people. So long that he would have tremendous difficulty in getting the massive amounts of homework his teachers used to give him done before midnight. And on top of that, having attention deficit hyperactive disorder made focusing on getting all of that work done after having been cooped up in a classroom all day virtually impossible.

And to make matters even worse, they would only provide enrichment courses that required massive amounts of writing. This was a child who needed to be taught to his strengths, but they were forcing him to spend all of his time beating his head against his weaknesses, without even helping him find ways to compensate for them, and without allowing him to use his strengths and utilize his talents and abilities.

He would have been much better off in an environment that was more suited to someone like him. A Waldorf school would have been perfect, but we didn't have access to that (or the resources to take advantage of one even if there had been one available).   Most public schools in US are not suited to people like my son.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Goose Gander
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:35 PM

But I don't want to be a pirate.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:38 PM

Try this

Or for Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:38 PM

mumble mumble mumble mumble YOU BASTARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:39 PM

How I taught my children is private, to be honest...

My kids learnt in a very laid back way...and yes, learning is by osmosis.

So there we have it. Lizzie's teaching methods, so much more succesful than everyone elses are private - never to be shared.

What a selfish attitude!! Here we have someone who has clearly discovered the secret of successful education of pupils that were having real difficulty in the normal education system. AND SHE REFUSES TO SHARE IT.

But then when we look a little closer we find that she has done little to teach her children apart from take them away from school and on holiday. Their education has been by osmosis. Clearly all that guff about different learning styles means nothing. Learning is about osmosis. Osmosis is all it needs.

I feel maybe the education system need no longer tremble.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:39 PM

I can't help myself, Michael. All that software, so little time...

I think an irate pirate is the best bet. And no, Sins, did you never see the episode of 'Friends' where they discussed gay pirates???

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:44 PM

"Osmosis" is a great way for many children (and adults) to learn. That's how I learn the best. Had I been able to learn that way when growing up, I would have been in far better shape when I reached adulthood than I was. And let's just say that by the time the government run schools in the US were finished with me, I was totally fucked up. It took decades for me to discover that I wasn't stupid and lazy, as I had been taught to believe. When I graduated at the age of 17, I couldn't even do fifth grade level math. (Fifth grade is ten year olds.) So clearly, the schools didn't know a thing about educating someone like me.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:45 PM

BT intercepted the second link with the message that it contained adult content! I expect a nasty mail next week. I concur with Sinsulls comments. Just remebered that I have a third alternative- Bought a T with a skull and crossbones 'No Fear' motif on Cozumel a couple of weeks back. They tell us the pirates have now left that island. Don't you believe it...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:47 PM

I wondered about that too, Dave. If someone doesn't start with the alphabet and letter sounds or at least showing print in a book, how does anyone learn? You can hand me a bunch of coins but if I don't have the concept the number 5 or 10 or 25, how do "osmosize" that and learn to add, subtract, multiply. Of course there are calculators but at some point someone has to explain the concept of numbers. He'll get cheated if he doesn't learn???

That's like saying "Mary, this is an atomic bomb. In two days it will explode. You have to turn it off. Go to it or die." No manual; no instructor. Just private osmosis.

Of course we will never get an answer just more histrionics on some imaginary person who is trying to keep her from home schooling her children.

It is sad that every discussion below the line deteriorates into this crap. I am out of here but thank you for your input.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:50 PM

Sinsull, it was all most all worth it for that 'Irate' Tshirt - pity about the keyboard though :)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:51 PM

Ridicule is the method many teachers use on kids who aren't performing to their expectations. I see that some people in this thread think it's a valid form of argument as well. Just goes to show what a bad influence schools can be on people. Talk about poor social skills, and those are learned in the schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:57 PM

Serious question, going competely off the main subject of pirate shirts. The education system fails people like Lizzie and Carol and, to a certain extent, my daughters. Assuming there is a percentage of people that it does not work for - Lets say 10% for sake of argument - is it right to continue saying it is so wrong. I fully understand the passion people have over their childrens education. Been there, done that, but why attempt to demolish a system that is nearly right? Why not just build on the sucesses and help in way you can rather than just criticise others? Why not do what I did and turn the negative into a possitive? Some people see just the falures. Others see an opportunity to improve. Belonging to the latter camp has certainly improved my life:-)

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:57 PM

"But then when we look a little closer we find that she has done little to teach her children apart from take them away from school and on holiday. Their education has been by osmosis. Clearly all that guff about different learning styles means nothing. Learning is about osmosis. Osmosis is all it needs.

I feel maybe the education system need no longer tremble."


What the f*ck are you talking about Dave?   

You do realise that you've become totally obsessive about me, don't you?

I have no wish to share anything with you, let alone information on how I educated my children.

YOUR system 'educated' my daughter for 10 years, and failed, miserably. I did one helluva lot better.....and nope, you ain't gonna get a detailed lesson plan from me, because, unlike you, I'm not up my own arse about lessons.

I've two intelligent, kind, compassionate children. One had a job at 13 earning the money for his computer, on which he finds out anything he wants to know...The other has been headhunted by The National Trust, who knew she had chosen to not take any 'school exams' but were very VERY happy to employ her despite that fact. She now has two jobs and has recently bought her own car, paid for her own driving lessons too.

And your problem with my children is WHAT, exactly?

Your problem with *me*, of course, is that you have never got over the fact that I spilt the beans, way back, when you PMd me to say how much you liked the photo of me that Sam had put on his site.

Hell, hath no fury like a man scorned, eh?

Now, get off my back...and accept that for me, for my children, Home Education has been a great thing.

If I had my time over again, I would NEVER send my kids into a highly antiquated, patronising, de-sensitising system, but that is just my own personal choice.

Oh...and Dave...maybe you like to send children into a school where the teachers all have walkie talkies, where they have a 'Cooling Down' room for children who've been marched out of the classroom by teachers, due to the violent disruption they're causing. Maybe you, like other teachers, would choose to put the most disturbed pupils next to my gentle daughter, in the hope that some of her personality would rub off on them...maybe you think it's OK for every teacher to have a 'panic alarm button' under their desks.....maybe...

Maybe you think it's OK for older pupils to stand at the top of stairwells and pour boiling hot chocolate drink down onto the younger ones (ho ho ho, what a larf, eh!).....

I happen to think it's all a load of crap.

This is because I'm 54 and remember a time when school was NOTHING like it is now....and those things mentioned above, all happened, in Tavistock College and Sidmouth College too.

Maybe you think it's OK for gentle children, and girls at that, to be hit in the face by other girls. I don't.

I'm not gutless. I don't believe in ignoring the blindingly obvious....nor do I believe in accepting crap from other posters in here, Spleen Cringe, who also have an axe to grind over me, because I refused to accept their Myspace page on mine....

So, fellas, you can take you high fallutin' attitudes right away from me, because I've been through BOTH systems, school and FREEDOM...and I KNOW which one works!

So, put that in yer pipes and smoke it!

(Sorry, Joe...but Dave's had this coming for a long time!)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:58 PM

Math is learned by osmosis when a home schooling parent bakes a cake with his or her kids, and shows them the numbers and fractions that are needed to make the cake. It is learned when a home schooling parent shows their kids how to measure and cut wood, and to draw a plan for building a bookshelf.

Really, the lack of imagination shown by people here shows me that the public schools didn't do them any service.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:58 PM

BTW - I am part way through a 12 hour nightshift. It will get worse...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:04 PM

Ridicule is far from a valid argument, Carol, but the ridiculous does beg to be ridiculed.

(Folkie)Dave, how long has it been YOUR education system? Hpw come you own it and can I have some of it please? Can you confirm that this is all YOUR doing? (Just as an example of the above...)

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:10 PM

Absolutely, Carol!   Absolutely!

Do they really think that you can ONLY learn by sitting behind a desk with a blackboard in front of you...


And tonight, I'm sitting here listening to News at Ten, hearing the story of a Nursery, down here in Plymouth, which was run by paedeophiles. 3 of them, 2 of them women, took photos, sexually abused the children, and the parents don't even know which children they abused...

One of my daughter's teachers was sent to prison for paedeophilia too.
He'd rigged up a camera in the classroom...got the young girls to reach up for books...and SNAP, photos of under their skirts were soon on the internet. Of course, one of the other teachers knew about it, he even warned the man concerned to stop it..but he didn't warn the children, or the parents...and so it went on for years....

Cool, huh...

School..it works..everytime.....?
Yeah, right!

But never mind, people, line up over there, put your babies into the nurseries, leave them with the childminders, put them in the hands of complete strangers...

Absolutely terrifying....but sadly....true.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:10 PM

Since "ridiculous" is a subjective term, I would think that someone with good social skills would know that if everyone engaged in ridiculing everyone else whom they found ridiculous, there would never be any constructive communication between people.

I notice also another behavior that children learn in the schools being displayed in this thread. That's the tendency to gang up on someone whom the larger group has decided to target.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:15 PM

Carol you have presented some impassioned but cogent arguments for home schooling in America; whatever form of education you received you are a credit to it as an independent thinker with a clear mind

However Lizzie has claimed some serious inaccuracies - such as all home educators are to be considered potential child abusers and placed on the 'at riak' register in the UK in support of her rather extremely expressed opinions, and I tend to agree with David el Gnomo that 'the ridiculous does beg to be ridiculed'

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:20 PM

And yet, ridiculing hasn't helped anyone to put forth their arguments. It only adds rancor to the thread.

I would suggest that the person venting against the system is entitled to their feelings based on their experience of the system, and that others are entitled to not agree. But I don't see the use of ridiculing anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:24 PM

By the way, most of my education, I provided my own self, since the schools taught me very little other than to believe that I was totally inadequate, stupid, and lazy. I will take all of whatever credit is due for my education.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:40 PM

Well I was luckier than you Carol as, although a classic dyslexic from an inpoverished background, I recieved an excellent education from teachers, who, although they had no concept of my inabilty to spell and absolutely dreadful dysgraphia, nevertheless were generally supportive and some were amazing mentors and role models that I will be grateful to for the rest of my life.

But these are all individual, personal experiences and do not constitute an argument for insisting that all state schooling is as excellent any more than it is all 'crap'

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:45 PM

Do they really think that you can ONLY learn by sitting behind a desk with a blackboard in front of you

I have just spent a while going back through the thread looking for the people who have said that the ONLY way to learn is sitting behind a desk etc. I did not find any. Lots of examples of people saying that there is room for both. Lots of people supporting home education and many remarks claiming that schools are just plain wrong. None saying it is the only way. Just who are the people saying this?

While I was looking I also spotted who exactly was ridiculing the system and other posters, who was making long winded personal attacks and who believes that they know what is best, end of story. I suggest a look through to draw your own conclusions.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:45 PM

Nobody can make dyslexia or any other learning disability go away. I know this because I have multiple learning disabilities myself. I've lived with them all of my life so far, and I will continue to live with them for the rest of my life.

Which means nobody's managed to make yours go away and nothing more. There are many problems labelled with the grotesquely stupid term "learning disability" that are COMPLETELY curable, by methods ranging from surgery on the eye muscles to dietary modification to hearing aids to pharmacotherapy, and it would be obscenely abusive to withhold such interventions.


What can be done is to help people find ways to compensate for their learning disabilities.

Which is something the collective expertise of a school system is more likely to figure out than a parent using their kid as the chosen battleground for a private grudge.

I had two successive things to compensate. With a cleft palate, I needed speech therapy to speak clearly. It worked well enough that the only people who can now tell there's anything odd inside my mouth are speech therapists. And my handwriting was bad enough at first that the teachers thought I might have a mild form of cerebral palsy. But first they tried a variety of different strategies until one clicked. My writing is still a bit slow, but elegant enough that I do calligraphic signs as part of my job using my natural script. Somehow I rather doubt if any of the homeschooling advocates posting here could have pulled either of those off, and with Lizzie as a mother I'd have been brought up to assert my right to speak with no intelligible consonants and scrawl stuff as legible as a barbed wire fence. (My own mother certainly couldn't have done it, but had the sense to defer to the experts).

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:01 PM

The person who had a good experience of the schools despite learning disabilities is very lucky indeed.

I had none of those good experiences. I was targeted for abuse and ridicule by my teachers (and also by the principal of the school I attended from the second grade to the fourth grade). This, of course, set up the social dynamic among my classmates that taught them that it was perfectly ok for them to also target me with abuse and ridicule. No help was given other than the advice that I needed to try harder.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:03 PM

I would suggest that problems that are labeled "learning disability" but can be gotten rid of are not really learning disabilities, but some other problem.

A learning disability is a problem with the brain wiring, and cannot be corrected. It can only be worked around.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:07 PM

Careful Dave. Too much examination of evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:09 PM

My son had some teachers who, like one of the above posters, believed that learning disabilities could be gotten rid of. They were the worst thing that could possibly have happened to him, because instead of helping him find ways of working around his problems, they were forcing him to be constantly beating his head against them. People like that should not be allowed to teach children.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:09 PM

"Osmosis" is a great way for many children (and adults) to learn. That's how I learn the best.

I agree - some things are learnt by osmosis. It isn't the only way. Some things are learnt best by practise. Sporting skills for example. All I have ever done (constantly) is ask Lizzie to share the secret of the way she has educated her children - for educate them she says she has done.

For someone who slags off teachers unmercifully she is remarkably reluctant to share her secrets. Her privilege of course - but I still believe it it selfish. But at least we now know it consists of taking them out of school, and then on trips. Oh yes! and osmosis.

Never mind she'll be back soon to tell us how she is organising a march for all of us to go on with banners against the Labour Government saying "Fuck You" as she said we all ought to do.

Oh yes and she is busy organising a folk festival in Torquay for people who are kept out of "top of the bill" spots by conspiracy.

Not that she is a conspiracy theorist of course. Heaven forfend.

And Lizzie you only bother me when you write unsubstantiated garbage. The problem is that is quite frequent.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:26 PM

I would suggest that problems that are labeled "learning disability" but can be gotten rid of are not really learning disabilities, but some other problem.

A learning disability is a problem with the brain wiring, and cannot be corrected. It can only be worked around.

Who gets to decide what can't be corrected? You? How good are you at diagnosing absence seizures, parasite infestations or Wilson's disease? How good are most parents at dealing with sexual abuse within the family when it affects children's learning?

You're just playing with words. You've defined a condition there can be no real-world test for.   It's a secular version of the Calvinist doctrine of election.

Thank fucking Christ nobody took your attitude with the problems I had. And they certainly could have done - there have been times and places where nobody expected people with cleft palates ever to speak normally or take part in ordinary civic life.

Children need some sort of protection against being crippled by the low expectations of authority figures. And the authorities most likely to have disablingly low expectations are their own parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:47 PM

Just another thought. (Best thing about working nights, waiting for something to go wrong, is that you think a lot...)

I wonder how many of our top musicians,artists and scientists agree that education is a bad thing? How many of them achived their status by osmosis and a little love? I wonder how many of them got to the top without some bloody hard work and lots of practice? I suppose they are all victims of the mysterious THEM as well...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:52 PM

If a child is good in arithmetic but not in languages or if the child is good in languages and is poor in computing the numbers, it could be a case of 'Specific Learning Disability' although to be honest I hate these type of 'labels'.

I agree with Latha Vidyaranya, a counselor for children with learning, emotional and behavioural problems

"These labels (should be used) only to exchange information between professionals and to understand the remedial measures required for the child, but not to demoralize the child or the parent."

"Once we have identified a child with these difficulties, what do we do?
The child needs an assessment by an Educational psychologist or a Special Educator who may administer various tests to find out the its abilities in the areas of reading, writing, spelling and arithmetic.
It is important to rule out any hearing or vision problems before conducting these tests.
It is also important to collect information about the family history/background to rule out any serious emotional disturbances."

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Goose Gander
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:54 PM

One-size-fits-all fits noone. Homeschooling works very well for some kids, not so good for others, could be disastrous in some cases. Same for formal classroom instruction. Ideally, there should be a range of choices open to parents and children. My younger brother used to scream and tear his clothes off and go running down the street. Now he's a software programmer making more money than I'll ever make. If he was a kid today, he'd be doped up on pharmaceuticals and/or institutionalized.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:14 PM

My younger brother used to scream and tear his clothes off and go running down the street. Now he's a software programmer making more money than I'll ever make. If he was a kid today, he'd be doped up on pharmaceuticals and/or institutionalized.

When did he change and what - if any one thing - changed him?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:24 PM

Michael, I totally agree with you...and you've touched on something hugely important, the fact that so many kids are put on Ritalin and other drugs, supposedly to make them 'behave' in school.

Let's put school on a drug, one that will make some of those who work inside it see clearly, perhaps for the first time in years....

"For someone who slags off teachers unmercifully she is remarkably reluctant to share her secrets."

I have only EVER slagged off crap teachers who damage children, sometimes for life. If everyone else did the same we'd er...have no crap teachers. I have ALWAYS praised and respected brilliant teachers, Dave, as well you know, so WHY do you persist in trying to spread entirely the wrong message about me, I wonder..............



"Her privilege of course - but I still believe it it selfish."

Yes, it is my privilege. No, it's not selfish, it's just damned annoying (for you) because you haven't got any more 'weapons of vocabularic destruction' that you can twist, spin and spit out against me and about me.

I think the expression, which I learned in school is 'Tough Shit' which just goes to prove that school CAN be good for the occasional thing.


"But at least we now know it consists of taking them out of school, and then on trips. Oh yes! and osmosis."

Yup. And two more lovely people you could never wish to meet. Unlike some bitter teachers who are so hellbent on proving their point that they make themselves looked er...somewhat odd.

School is absolutely the correct place for you, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:24 PM

It is also important to collect information about the family history/background to rule out any serious emotional disturbances.

And maybe a bit more than that. A lot of "ADHD" is the result of what might be called home antischooling - when what goes on in the home environment makes it impossible for the kid to learn anything either there or at school. Things like sexual abuse and parents keeping the kids awake all night with drunken arguments are the well-publicized ones. But even in the absence of anything that might attract police intervention, a kid is never going to learn to sit and think (either at home or school) while living in a home environment where there is never any silence, nobody ever settles down to a sustained task that takes any time, and the only escape from non-stop TV and videos is being left alone in your room to play millisecond-response computer games all evening.

One peculiarly sick situation I know of in a Scottish region near here: the local authority set up a very effective network for parents of kids with ADHD. The parents were largely in control of it but professionals were on call as needed. They used a wide range of interventions, everything from Ritalin to ensuring that kids ate meals on a regular schedule, laid off junk food and Red Bull, and didn't have TVs or computers in their bedrooms. None of this stuff is rocket science and it didn't take too long before the parents figured out how to manage the problem. It didn't take much longer before a lot of them decided not to manage it. The benefits paid out to families with an ADHD kid were high enough to make a substantial difference to the weekly budget. An ADHD kid was effectively an extra wage earner, so long as they stayed messed up enough.

Something like that is equally a problem for home-based or school-based education, but the answer is never going to come from the parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:46 PM

I'm not the one who said that learning disabilities can't be corrected. That was I have been told (and what I have read from) all of the experts on learning disabilities I have encountered, including educators. And clearly the person in this thread who thinks they can and that theirs was, didn't have learning disabilities. At least the language one was not. The handwriting one probably is, since that one, according to their own account, hasn't gone away. They've just found ways of getting around it.

CLEFT PALATE IS NOT A LEARNING DISABILITY. It is a PHYSICAL disability. Thank god I knew better than to believe the teachers who thought and believed like the person who is saying that learning disabilities can be corrected. If those teachers had been allowed to prevail, my son would have been as totally fucked up by the time he reached adulthood as I was. But instead, he has a university degree and a very good job.

It's BECAUSE I taught him that although he couldn't get rid of his learning disabilities, he could learn how to compensate for them, and because I taught him to never listen to people who tried to make him feel like he wasn't doing his best, that he was able to compensate for the faulty brain wiring that was causing him so much trouble in the schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:48 PM

I would suggest that a lot of the top musicians and artists did poorly in school, and many of the probably have learning disabilities. That seems to be fairly common with very creative people.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:59 PM

I totally disagree that the term learning disability should not be used by anyone but the professionals who are working with the child. It wasn't until I learned that I have learning disabilities when I was in my 30s that I was able to find a way to benefit from a structured learning environment. It wasn't until I learned exactly what my problems were, and then found effective tools for getting around them that I was able to function well in a classroom setting. Where I had consistently gotten Ds and Es (the lowest grade being F) in school as a child (except in art, where I always got As), when I went back to college in my 30s (after having twice dropped out in my late teens, without ever finishing a semester), I got mostly As and a couple of Bs.

The reason I was able to do this is because I understood the nature of my problems. And I STILL have attention deficit disorder, and have had it all of my life (I believe that ADD is a little sister to autism), so that can't be pinned on my home life as a child. But when I understood why I had so much difficulty focusing, that was when I was able to find ways to create an environment in which I was able, with a lot of effort, to focus and learn, and get very good grades.

But the reason I was so successful after I went back to school as an adult was because I as an adult, and I had much more power and control over my environent. The learning disabilities didn't go way, I just learned how to compensate for them.

And knowing why I have the problems I do also helped my self-esteem a hell of a lot. Because then I knew that the things the schools had taught me to believe about myself weren't true, and that there were very good reasons why I had the difficulties I had in school.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:07 PM

I disagree that home schooling parents can't handle kids with ADD. The home schooling environment is perfect for the child with ADD, because the method of teaching can be perfectly molded to the child's style of learning so that the child is always interested and doesn't lose focus.   I know this from experience of having home schooled a child with ADHD.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:20 PM

CLEFT PALATE IS NOT A LEARNING DISABILITY. It is a PHYSICAL disability.

So what? In the conceptual scheme of most of humanity for most of history, it meant you wrote the person off and didn't think of trying to do anything about it. Just as people with brain disorders like absence seizures got written off. For the person on the receiving end of a disabling label, it makes no difference at all which bit of their anatomy the label is stuck on.


It's BECAUSE I taught him that although he couldn't get rid of his learning disabilities, he could learn how to compensate for them, and because I taught him to never listen to people who tried to make him feel like he wasn't doing his best, that he was able to compensate for the faulty brain wiring that was causing him so much trouble in the schools.

Brains are not made of wires and mechanistic analogies never helped anybody.

Do you in fact know that your son doesn't have something in the same category as absence seizures or gluten intolerance - a condition you don't know the aetiology of, one that maybe nobody knows the aetiology of yet, but which might be easily fixable by adding a chemical or subtracting an environmental toxin? (A lot of parents of autistic kids have now learned not to take the experts' word for it that nothing can be done).

There is often no meaningful distinction between "curing" a condition and "compensating" for it. But there is a distinction between wanting to learn more about what can be done for it and shutting your mind to all but one alternative forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:42 PM

The system can be improved, no doubt but "formalized child abuse"? Maybe just a bit over the top?


   No, based on observations of my own kids and many talks with parents. SATS were always voluntary for my kids....teachers didn't like it because they were high scorers....they seemed glad if other kids were away on sats day though!.
   The symptoms are all too real....but kids are resilient, and with love and belief from significant others will survive well enough. sadly this isn't true for all kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:49 PM

I would suggest that a lot of the top musicians and artists did poorly in school, and many of the probably have learning disabilities. That seems to be fairly common with very creative people.

I would love to see some statistics to back up that statement. How many? What is the percentage of top musicians and artists who did badly in school? How does it compare to the number of emminent scientists who did badly? How does that compare to the number of everyday Joes and Jills who did badly. I would be very surprised if the differences were more than a couple of points but as I can find nothing to back that up I will not suggest it is true.

I do know that some top names in all fields were academicaly very gifted as well so I am not sure what the relevance to this discussion is I'm afraid. But then again it is 0150 in the UK and I have still got to 0700 to go...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:50 PM

"I totally disagree that the term learning disability should not be used by anyone but the professionals who are working with the child"

That is your experience Carol but my experience is that parents I have known have been devastated to have their children with quite mild specific difficulties in spelling etc - which can occur in people of all abilities - labelled with this particular all encompassing 'label' which has become synonymous with impaired intellectual development in the UK

According to the British Dyslexia Association.

"Dyslexia can occur despite normal intellectual ability and teaching.
It is constitutional in origin, part of one's makeup and independent of socio-economic or language background.
Some learners have very well developed creative skills and interpersonal skills, others have strong oral skills.

Some have no outstanding talents.

All have strengths."

Dyslexia does not confer creativity on people - I only wish that was true - but people with this condition are just ordinary Joes with the usual range of skills who sometimes are quite adept at developing personal strategies in order to cope with study etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 09:40 PM

The reason the experts know that there is a difference in the brain "wiring" of people with learning disabilities and ADD as compared to other people, is because they've done brain scans and they can SEE that the brains of people with learning disabilities and ADD work differently than the brains of people who don't.

This is what makes them different from people who have other kinds of problems.

To people who have had learning disabilities and ADD their whole lives without knowing it, it is extremely liberating to have a name to put on their problem. Accepting that one has a learning disability that isn't going to go away is hardly shutting the mind to only one alternative forever. It is the first step in finding a way to cope with the problem instead of beating one's head against it one's whole life.

And I didn't tell my son that there is nothing to be done. I told him that there are good reasons why he has the problems he does, and he shouldn't ever let anyone make him feel ashamed of the way he is. And I taught him to not ever be afraid to get help if he needs it, and I taught him to never give up on himself. My son has been the way he is since birth. Teaching him how to live a good life despite his differences is hardly the same thing as shutting my mind to all but one alternative forever.

What I object to the most strenuously is when the poster who believes that learning disabilities can be gotten rid of blames a parent who is doing a damned good job of raising their kids for their kids learning disabilities. Blaming the parents of people with learning disabilities is no more enlightened (and is every bit as ignorant) as hiding people with visible physical disabilities away in an attic where no one can see them. It's just as archaic, just as ignorant, and just as ugly.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 09:47 PM

It might be devastating for the parents to be told of the problem and provided with label, but parents often don't understand what it's like for the person with the disability. The kid just wants to know that their problem is not total inadequacy on their part. Having a name for it makes it something that the child can understand and work with. If the schools are using that label to refer to anything other than the disorder itself and are pigeon holing kids because of it, that supports what some of us have been saying about how badly kids with learning disabilities are served in the schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 10:39 PM

I don't have any percentages of top musicians and artists who did badly in school and who have/had learning disabilities. That's why I didn't give any before. But it is common. Here's a partial list of famous people with learning disabilities. A lot of them are people who were engaged in creative pursuits (and I include inventor in that category)...

http://www.greatschools.net/LD/managing/famous-people-dyslexia-ld-or-ad-hd.gs?content=696&page=3



Just for information, here's a partial list of famous people who were home schooled...

http://www.home4schoolgear.com/famoushomeschooler.html

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:37 AM

I started that list of famous people with learning disabilities on the wrong page. Here it is starting on page one...

http://www.greatschools.net/LD/managing/famous-people-dyslexia-ld-or-ad-hd.gs?content=696&page=1

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:30 AM

So, before I go and get some sleep, what are we saying here? That the people who do well at school or put in hours of practice and hard work are to be decried because they followed the 'norm', whatever that is? That having an unkown percentage of gifted geniuses who were outside the standard educational system somehow proves that everyone who is home schooled is more likely to be gifted than those who do well in standard education? Just where is this line of reasoning taking us?

Let me state once again that no-one. apart from one person. is saying that one type of schooling is better than another. They are complimentary (or is it complementary? Lack of schooling for you...)What started off as a reasonable question has become, once again, a vehicle for tilting at windmills.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:33 AM

Was any of that post directed at me? If so, I would suggest going back and actually reading my posts rather than inventing things for me to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:45 AM

Nope, I think it was definitely directed at me. I still would suggest going back and reading what I have said (hint: in more than one post, I said that parents should do what they think is best for their children, whether that is home schooling or public or privately run schools).

I did not say that home schooled people are commonly found in the top of the creative fields. I said that people with learning disabilities are commonly found among people who are the top in the creative fields. People with learning disabilities often have to be very creative and innovative just in order to get by in the world with their limitations. And often, since they are less encumbered by their disabilities when engaging in creative endeavors, it is natural for them to go into those kinds of fields when they grow up. This is a good combination of influences for people to excel in creative endeavors. Rick Fielding is an excellent example of what I am talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 02:59 AM

I don't think citing Joan or Arc of Leonardo da Vinci as examples of home-schooled successes really adds very much to the debate. Far better to narrow it down to those educated at home post 1960. Then the household names drop to, er...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:11 AM

1960 is a pretty arbitrary limit. There's no reason to use that one except for the purpose of skewing the argument in the favor of the ones who want to use it. What the list shows us (and most of the people on it lived far more recently than Joan of Arc) is that schooling outside the home is not necessary for people to accomplish great things.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:17 AM

Steve Winwood dropped out of school at the age of 14 which caused a right kerfuffle at the time.

Not sure if he carried on with tuition of some sort.

Don't suppose he was that bothered as music was his love and Spencer Davis group was his destiny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx3g_sOiOb8&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:27 AM

"Do they really think that you can ONLY learn by sitting behind a desk with a blackboard in front of you..."

Sorry, Lizzie, but that really does show how out of touch you are with modern teaching practices. Even if you could find one in a school today, you'd have to call it a "chalkboard" - but you're much more likely, however, to find an interactive whiteboard and kids working in groups and on computers.

Aside from the education debate, there are a couple of other areas that worry me about home schooling and, before I attract a tirade of abuse, let be emphasise that I'm talking from my own, personal perspective here.

As we live in a small village with only a handful of children, my daughter's friends (and my son's before her) are drawn almost exzclusively from school. Without school, she would have few friends. Then there are the after-school clubs that she goes to - these, too, are an important part of her life.

I also believe that one of my obligations, as a parent, is to teach my kids self-reliabce and independence. I worry that, if they'd been taught at home, this might have been stifled. As I am 60 and my daugter is 9, there's a strong possibility that I won't be around to help with many of the important decisions she'll have to make so I want her to have the knowledge and confidence to make her own decisions (and not to be afraid to make mistakes)and I believe that this can best be achieved by interacting with as many people as possible and that her school is the right environment for this. It has certainly worked with our son and it is something that my parents were wise enough to do with me. I can honestly say that this approach has helped me get through a number of difficult periods in my life and I am eternally grateful for my parent's foresight.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:32 AM

I am not sure what a list of famous people who have succeeded despite being disadvantaged adds to the debate.

It certainly does not add anything to the debate about home schooling.

Lizzie, just to make it clear - I have taught in schools - but the vast bulk of my teaching was with mature students whose learning for all sorts of reasons was curtailed when younger. This included those with specific learning difficulties (which covers dyslexia) but there were other reasons why they didn't succeed in school including for example spending a long time in prison.

The student I am most proud of was and still is quadriplegic, and couldn't talk or feed himself and needed 24-hour per day care.

He is doing an M.A at Leeds University having got a 2:1 degree in social policy.

As a matter of interest do you think you could have made a better job of teaching him than the professionals?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 04:13 AM

The list adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. I only posted it because someone wanted me to provide some background for something I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 04:30 AM

Home schooling can provide an environment in which children can become more independent rather than less so, because, for one thing, there is little to no peer pressure. And often, home schooled children are able participate in deciding how they will learn, which is usually not the case in schools. If a particular parent feels that they would not be able to allow that kind of autonomy for their kid if they were to home school, and if they felt that their kid needed that, then that parent would not be good candidate for home schooling their child.

As I said in an earlier post, when I was home schooling my son, we belonged to an association of home schooling families who would all get together frequently to provide the kids with opportunities to be with other kids, doing all kinds of activities. Many kids developed strong friendships with the other kids in the association. We lived in a very small town in a very rural and isolated area, but there were a couple dozen home schooling families in our group.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 05:15 AM

The reason the experts know that there is a difference in the brain "wiring" of people with learning disabilities and ADD as compared to other people, is because they've done brain scans and they can SEE that the brains of people with learning disabilities and ADD work differently than the brains of people who don't.

ALL of them? And PERMANENTLY, no matter what they eat or do? Are you supposing that brain activity can never be influenced by what you eat, what physical diseases you've got, or your daily habits?

Most cases of diagnosed ADHD can be vastly improved or completely cured by changes to the environment - removing dietary and environmental allergens and distracting influences that interfere with sustained attention. A hell of a lot of kids are TRAINED to be attention-deficient by parents to whom a structureless, frantic lifestyle of addiction to hyperstimulation and recreational electronics is normal. Sure there may be a few with some syndrome that isn't responsive to environmental intervention - the diagnosis is simply a phenomenological label. A lot of parents of kids diagnosed "ADHD" just LOVE the model you're advocating because it means they're never going to need to take responsibility for getting TV out of their life, thinking of something more constructive to do with time shared with their kids, and learning to cook. It's just his brain, whoop-de-doo, it's just fine if if I leave him at the Playstation all night.


This is what makes them different from people who have other kinds of problems.

It's a diagnostic label applied to certain kinds of behaviour. You know perfectly well that it is never in practice confined to people who have been through the sort of rigorous workup it would take to identify a brain syndrome that was genuinely and provably not responsive to somatic and environmental treatment. That would take thousands of dollars in every case. It's not like there's an immuno-assay blood test.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 06:40 AM

>>Most cases of diagnosed ADHD can be vastly improved or completely cured by changes to the environment <<

Completely cured is bunkem Jack.

They can be taught strategies to help them through their difficult times. I have a daughter who is 18 and has been diagnosed with ADHD. She has problems with her short term memory, socialising and in times of stress or excitement, can get so hyperactive. However she has learned strategies to help her in such scenarios. She will never be completely cured, but she will need to live with it, the best way she can. She has a sensible diet and has always had one. She knows that certain products make her go bonkers, so she avoids them as best as possible. We stopped with agreement from her, taking Ritalin. That is such a terrible drug. however in doing that she had to learn strategies.
We are very pleased with her, as she has managed to get herself into University (only people who understand ADHD will know how difficult that is). She is also spending a year in Holland as an Au Pair and is doing very well.

I suppose you are going to tell me that Autistic children can be cured now?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 07:11 AM

We stopped with agreement from her, taking Ritalin. That is such a terrible drug

It's terrible for some people; others tolerate it well enough for a long time that they don't need any other treatment; for others it's a not-too-bad temporary measure to calm the whole situation down when starting some longer-term strategy. You're suggesting it should be banned, based on a sample of one? A parent of an ADHD kid is likely to end up messianically for or against it, depending on what happened with theirs; someone who sees how hundreds of kids react to it will be less likely to go to extremes.

I suppose you are going to tell me that Autistic children can be cured now?

Only very rarely (taking "cured" to mean "nobody could tell they were any different unless they asked"). But a great many can be helped by appropriate intervention, and the earlier it's done the more likely it is to be successful. (GF/CF diet in particular; waste of time trying years after onset). Getting from total muteness and faecal incontinence to complete sentences and normal toilet use is not cure, but it makes a big difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 08:00 AM

'Cured' is such an inappropriate word. These are not illnesses, but a natural part of human diversity.
   What can be done is to teach behaviours which are appropriate to culturally normative institutions. An alternative is not to expose them to these ratyher artificial institutions.This altrnative is normally the reserve of those who have 'independent means.'
In the 1909 edition of the 'handbook of mental deficiency' Tredgold and Soddy noted that a fair proportion of the feeble minded were members of the gentry 'well suited to the amusements of their class', and therefore in no need of socital intervention.King George V's eldest son had 'learning difficulties' but was provided with a secluded cottage, servants etc. No need to cure the rich!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 08:23 AM

Purely out of interest I looked up some 'famous' modern muscians/vocalists with dyslexia

Cher .
Brad Little .
John Lennon.
Nigel Kennedy, Violinist.
Bob Weir, Grateful Dead Guitarist.

A brief look at biographies yielded the information that
Cher and her sister lived in dismal poverty with their divorced mother until 1961.
Although their financial condition improved when their mother remarried Cher already was a 'rebel' at school and left when, at 16, she met 28 year old met songwriter and producer Sonny Bono.

Brad Little was educated in the American public system although his father, an academic, said that he sometimes ached for his struggle but felt it had "become a symbol for his confidence in his ability to achieve in the area of his considerable talent and expertise."
When his father was conducting a university study abroad program for college students and lived in Salzburg, Austria brad had a year of home tutoring

When he was four years old, John Lennon's parents separated and he ended up living with his Aunt Mimi. His father was a merchant seaman and John did not see a lot of his father when he was small; his mother, Julia Stanley Lennon Dykins, was struck and killed by a drunk driver in 1958.
John Lennon was educated at Dovedale County Primary School, followed by Quarry Bank Grammar School (from 1952 until 1957) and the Liverpool College of Art.

Nigel Kennedy was born into a musical family
His grandfather, Lauri Kennedy, was principal cello in the BBC Symphony Orchestra.
Nigel's father, John Kennedy, became principal cello in the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra under Sir Thomas Beecham, but then moved to Australia, possibly not knowing that Nigel had been conceived.
His mother, Scylla Stoner, was a piano teacher.
Aged seven he won a place at the Yehudi Menuhin School, the UK's most elite training institution for gifted young musicians; Menuhin's family sponsored his education.
He has been known to clam up about this private intensive teaching environment once commenting
"Well, like, the only sport we were allowed to play against other schools was table tennis, because otherwise we might damage our hands. And there was this guru who taught yoga." Menuhin was passionate about yoga and insisted on its inclusion in the curriculum. "He used our table-tennis table to give demonstrations – maybe he was trying to levitate or something – and he completely wrecked it! I took up running to get away from the yoga."

Bob Weir was raised by his adoptive parents in a suburb of San Francisco
He attended mainly independent schools in the area but had trouble with his dyslexia and was expelled from nearly every school he attended
In 2002, Weir signed on as an official supporter of Little Kids Rock, a non-profit organization that provides free musical instruments and instruction to children in underserved public schools throughout the U.S.A

A mixed bag probably as far across the board of educational experiences it's possible to get!

I apologize it adds nothing to the argument one way or another but...... it is a music site folks :)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 08:51 AM

I would suggest that a lot of the top musicians and artists did poorly in school, and many of the probably have learning disabilities. That seems to be fairly common with very creative people.

Carol I am not sure if this is you talking and I am not sure whether this is something that has been carefully researched or something you have an impression of.

I don't think there is any evidence that a lot of top musicians and artists did poorly in school - but I am happy to be corrected by detailed research.

Incidentally professionals in this country end not to use the word "disabilities".

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 09:06 AM

>>We stopped with agreement from her, taking Ritalin. That is such a terrible drug

It's terrible for some people; others tolerate it well enough for a long time that they don't need any other treatment; for others it's a not-too-bad temporary measure to calm the whole situation down when starting some longer-term strategy. You're suggesting it should be banned, based on a sample of one? A parent of an ADHD kid is likely to end up messianically for or against it, depending on what happened with theirs; someone who sees how hundreds of kids react to it will be less likely to go to extremes.

I suppose you are going to tell me that Autistic children can be cured now?

Only very rarely (taking "cured" to mean "nobody could tell they were any different unless they asked"). But a great many can be helped by appropriate intervention, and the earlier it's done the more likely it is to be successful. (GF/CF diet in particular; waste of time trying years after onset). Getting from total muteness and faecal incontinence to complete sentences and normal toilet use is not cure, but it makes a big difference. <<

Jack

I find your comments very patronising, especially as you have no idea of the hard work that has gone into the development of both our daughters.

We took our daughter off Ritalin, after consulting specialists and looking into the effects of the drug. Our daughters teacher begged us to take her off it and our dentist who was a friend, told us to get her off it, becuase of the severe side effects. So Jack I am not stupid enough to take an action like that based on my own decisions.

Autism is a disorder of neural development that is characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior. These signs all begin before a child is three years old.[

As regards our Autistic daughter, we have been working with her since she was 3 and was statemented at 3 and a half, and is now 14. I and my wife have worked very closely with the specialists and I have done a lot of Home teaching based on what the specialist were doing and today, she is in mainstream with support. She can talk the hind leg off a donkey. She can read very well. She, through a lot of hard work in her early days, can use the computer proficiently and much better than most older people. Thats becuase we and the specialists have put a lot of hard work in over the years.
However the down side is, that she has no friends becuase of her impaired social interaction, is unable to improvise and freaks out if forced to, gets upset very easily when routines aren't met, etc etc etc.

We as parents have taken out responsibilities very seriously and have always worked very closely with the specialists and the schools and are currently drawing up a 2 year plan to improve as much as possible her basic skills, so that we can as much as possible get to the point where we can make her self dependant as soon as possible for her sake. Wether that works , remains to be seen, but it won't be for the lack of hard work on many peoples parts.


Please realise that their are parents out there who have literally give up their lives to support our special needs children and for you to make such glib comments, is not appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 09:34 AM

Those lists of "famous people like us" are nearly always dubious, and the dyslexia one more than most. Lennon published a lot of stuff in manuscript, and there's nothing dyslexic about any of it. Deliberately eccentric in a way that would drive a rigid teacher up the wall, yes, but it never comes across as being something he couldn't help. Look at this manuscript, intended for private use - the words are not simple to spell but they're all spot-on

http://www.finebooksmagazine.com/issue/200903/graphics/auction/9-lennon.jpg

whereas here he is in full creative-spelling mode for public consumption:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40124000/jpg/_40124882_page_220.jpg

And some of those entries are based on no evidence whatever - look at the ones on Flaubert and Agatha Christie. Einstein is a favourite adoptee by advocacy groups; I've seen a few of his manuscripts and they have nothing in common with any dyslexic writing (the whole lot is at http://www.alberteinstein.info/manuscripts/ , but my browser can't access that).

Yeats is an interesting one. That site does make a good case for him being dyslexic. But he was also completely tone-deaf, unable to recognize any tune. Hardly any of his poetry is singable. His mental world must have been very different from most of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 09:43 AM

It is indeed directed at you, Carol. The reason being that it was you who said that many artists etc. probably have learning disabilities. With no kind of statistics to back that up. You still have not provided any proof that the proportion of gifted people with learning difficulties is any higher than that of anyone else.

I have read your posts and I know that you said parents should do what they think best. I am not disputing that in the slightest. I am challenging your statement that implies that people with learning diffiulties are more creative than people without. Not saying it untrue, just asking for proof. It was you who started that whole line of reasoning yet now questioned you want to go back to the main point. Fine by me.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 10:12 AM

Dave
I think that what you get is that some special needs people, find music something they love with a passion. This may be particularly true with people who are Aspbergers. They tend to be brilliant with one subject and as such are hopelessly obsessive about it.

My daughter who is Autistic with learning difficulties and not considered aspbergers, was amazingly good at picking up how to play keyboard. As such when she is concentrating on soemthing she enjoys, is is almost like she is single tasking and consequently listens and soaks up what is told and taught and she has this amazing memory capabilty. Unfortunately she got bored with playing the keyboard, but we still leave it around in case she ever gets the desire to play again.

Having said all of that and bearing in mind that through Faldingworth live I meet many performers, I have only come across 2 who I would with confidence class as Aspbergers and they have learnt to overcome their problems, enough to go on stage. Don't ask me who they are, becuase I will not divulge that.

So I would say that many artist's do not have learning disabilities.

What is interesting, is that I see fine singer's or musician's who seem to lack self esteem and do not beleive they are as good as they are.

That doesn't mean that they have learning disabilities. They may have issues such as depression etc, but I don't think that would be classed as learning disabilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 10:29 AM

Autism is a disorder of neural development that is characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior. These signs all begin before a child is three years old.

You are ignoring regressive autism, which now accounts for the great majority of cases in the UK and typically strikes a few years later. "Autism spectrum disorder" is a wider category again.

Most of the patients my girlfriend treats have regressive autism - they tend to be a bit atypical (not sure how many she's dealt with, must be well into triple figures). But it's very rare that no combination of treatment approaches achieves anything, no matter what kind of autism they've got. Parents often give up, though - often with more reason than the parents of hyperactive kids, since the gains can be minimal and require enormous effort.

As regards our Autistic daughter, we have been working with her since she was 3 and was statemented at 3 and a half, and is now 14. I and my wife have worked very closely with the specialists and I have done a lot of Home teaching based on what the specialist were doing and today, she is in mainstream with support. She can talk the hind leg off a donkey. She can read very well. She, through a lot of hard work in her early days, can use the computer proficiently and much better than most older people. Thats becuase we and the specialists have put a lot of hard work in over the years. [...]
Please realise that their are parents out there who have literally give up their lives to support our special needs children and for you to make such glib comments, is not appreciated.

I don't see where you could have read anything I've written as attacking you for making that sort of effort. You obviously aren't the sort of parent who ignores all expert opinion and treats their child as a guinea pig for a theory of their own. I am simply pointing out that for some autistic kids a better outcome might be possible, or the same sort of outcome with less work. Not all autistic kids are the same. For others the reality might be much worse, 15 years of heartbreaking and totally wasted effort ending in no gain and no future. You can't generalize.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 10:49 AM

"I would suggest that a lot of the top musicians and artists did poorly in school, and many of the probably have learning disabilities. That seems to be fairly common with very creative people."

Carol, I've been trying to tell people that for years and years..had a thread over on the BBC called 'Musicians and Dyslexia' years back...it's still there, somewhere...but my goodness, didn't 'they' hound me out of town for that one.

I can tell a musician who's dyslexic, autistic...purely from watching them...

Some of our best musicians are...and it's way past time that they felt proud of that fact, because it sure is nothing to be ashamed of.

So many famous people, scientists, politicians, musicians, artists..etc...are on 'the circle'

I think it's absolute magic!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 11:14 AM

OK fair enough Jack. One of the problems of forums like this is misunderstanding the meaning of what somebody is trying to say.

>>Not all autistic kids are the same<<

You can say that again, they are all different.

They all need support from their parents and the professionals to give them the best possible outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 11:26 AM

There are two musicians I know who are both Cambridge graduates and who were also diagnosed as dyslexic when small children. They considered this not a "gift" but a blasted nuisance. Each, however, received appropriate remedial tuition and are now where they are, playing in top bands.

I know another with Asberger's Syndrome who refuses all therapy or treatment. He's a total pain in the arse, as is anyone else with this condition, and is unable to play in bands with others.

None of which has anything whatsoever to do with "home education" (cranky or not) but it certainly exposes how preposterous it is to regard someone with a learning difficulty as somehow "special". Appropriate intervention by skilled experts can and does get round or overcome such problems and enables a more or less "normal" life (whatever that is).

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 11:43 AM

Once again I ask, what is the point being made about some of our top musicians etc having learning difficulties? What has it got to do with home learning? Why are people getting sidetracked with this nonsense? Some of our top people have some form of learning difficulty. Some of our top people have green eyes. Some of our top people are paedophiles. Some of our top people whistle dixie while having a leak. What does it matter? What relevence does it have to home learning?

Hint - look at the thread title...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:02 PM

What I am saying is that people's learning disabilities should never be blamed on the parents. There may come a day when a cure for them is found, but it has not been found yet.

Yes, learning disabilities and ADD can be remediated, but remediation is not a cure and doesn't make the learning disability go away. My son was BORN with ADHD. I know this because a lot of the manifestations of it that he exhibited were apparent almost from the day he was born. If kids get ADD from their environment, then it's not ADD. It's something else.

The only TV my son had access to most of his childhood was educational TV. We didn't have a TV for the first few years of his life, and when we did get one, we didn't have access to any commercial TV for most of the time when we did have one. Most of my time was spent interacting with my son because he required enormous amounts of mental stimulation or he would go bonkers (almost from the day he was born). But he was also very sensitive to any kind of sensory stimulation and would get overstimulated very easily, and would cry nonstop for about an hour every day (when he was an infant) while he released all of the pent up stimulation he had acumulated throughout the day.

I spent hours of every day reading to my son. Time that wasn't spent with me reading to him, he spent playing with friends. They played pretend, they made secret formulas in what they called the "formula kitchen" in the basement, they made secret mazes and forts in the corn field out back or in the bushes around the creek, or up in the trees that surrounded the house. One of my son's favorite toys was a rope he chose as a birthday present one year. It was just about 6' of thick green rope, but he and his friends could pretend that rope was all kinds of things in their imaginary play world.

ADD is NOT just a diagnostic label applied to certain kinds of behavior. I know because I have it. It is a way that a person feels and a way that a person experiences the world. And it's not the same as the way "normal" people feel and experience the world. I know this because I talk to people who don't have it, and they tell me they don't experience the kinds of things that people with ADD say they experience. People who focus only on the behavioral aspects of ADD don't have it and don't know what it's like to live with it.

Someone needs to get off their high horse and accept the fact that they don't know shit about ADD. I'm an expert on ADD because I have lived with it my whole life, and because I raised a child who has it.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:11 PM

I never said that the proportion of gifted people with learning disabilities was greater than anyone else. Again, someone is putting words in my mouth. I said it is common. I am going on anecdotal evidence only and I have not claimed that I have any statistical evidence to back it up. As someone who has learning disabilities myself, I tend to notice when I hear accounts of creative people and sports figures also, who say they had difficulties in school, and how that contributed to their choice of career. It is common.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:22 PM

Learning disabilities are also not just a cluster of symptoms. They are a way that people experience the world. Although people can be taught to approach learning in ways that remediate the disability, they don't change the way the people who have them experience the world. They usually still have to work harder to get the same results as other people. They have to continue to use the workarounds they develop for themselves their whole lives, and they still display the little quirks that come with their disability, even if they are able to make them less obvious.

The other day, JtS said to me, "something's wrong with your brain". He was saying it as if he'd just discovered it. I said, "No kidding! I have ADD!"

Last night, I discovered an online forum for people with dyscalculia (my specific learning disability). It was so refreshing to read what other people with this disability had to say and to see so much of myself in them. It was like I had found my people at last. The people who know how how I experience the world, because they experience it in much the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:33 PM

The largest national agency dealing with ADD disagrees, Carol. That includes professionals as well as fellow sufferers.

http://www.add.org/mc/page.do?sitePageId=92488&orgId=atdda


DEFINITION OF AD/HD:

AD/HD is a diagnosis applied to children and adults who consistently display certain characteristic behaviors over a period of time. The most common core features include:

distractibility (poor sustained attention to tasks)
impulsivity (impaired impulse control and delay of gratification)
hyperactivity (excessive activity and physical restlessness)
In order to meet diagnostic criteria, these behaviors must be excessive, long-term, and pervasive. The behaviors must appear before age 7, and continue for at least 6 months. A crucial consideration is that the behaviors must create a real handicap in at least two areas of a person's life, such as school, home, work, or social settings. These criteria set ADHD apart from the "normal" distractibility and impulsive behavior of childhood, or the effects of the hectic and overstressed lifestyle prevalent in our society.

According to the DSM-IV (the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition) some common symptoms of ADHD include: often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes; often has difficulty sustaining attention to tasks; often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly; often fails to follow instructions carefully and completely; losing or forgetting important things; feeling restless, often fidgeting with hands or feet, or squirming; running or climbing excessively; often talks excessively; often blurts out answers before hearing the whole question; often has difficulty awaiting turn.

Please keep in mind that the exact nature and severity of AD/HD symptoms varies from person to person. Approximately one-third of people with AD/HD do not have the hyperactive or overactive behavior component, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 12:50 PM

Yes, people classify it in ways that help them provide help for people who have it. But people who have it don't experience it that way. People who are describing it have to use a set of behaviors to define it because that's what they have to work with. People who have it describe it differently because that's how they experience the world.

People with autism describe their experiences very differently than those who don't have it who use the outward things they see to describe it also. When I read what Temple Grandin has to say about how she experiences her world, it is very different from the way a professional will describe autism. And what she says about how she experiences things is where I got my belief that ADD is a little sister to autism, because I experience many of the things that she does, although my overall experience is very different.

People shouldn't think that the professionals' descriptions of these disorders in any way helps people to understand what it is like to live with them. They don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:01 PM

"Appropriate intervention by skilled experts can and does get round or overcome such problems and enables a more or less "normal" life (whatever that is)."

Hellooooeeee? Dyslexia is NOT a problem. It ONLY becomes a problem when children are forced to learn (only in schools) in a non-dyslexic way, by non-dyslexic brained people, who seem totally UNABLE to accept that all brains do NOT think as theirs do.

I know people with Aspergers and they can be the kindest, warmest people at times...

Sorry, dyslexia IS a gift, because without the creative minds, this world would be a very sorry place. It only becomes a pain in the arse when we have to confront those who think we MUST think and do as *they* do...and the sooner the Dyslexic people of this world stand together and say "Eff off and leave us alone, because we're perfectly happy being as we are!" the better we'll all be.

It's kinda like being left-handed in this bloody right handed world.
Left to my own ways I'd right from right to left, read from right to left, but...nope..I have to adjust to *their* world, the right handers that is. WHY?   At school people grumped at me for nudging them with my arm, my hand was always covered in ink, because it rested on what I'd just written...My brain tossed and turned at trying to read back to front, in a world of people who didn't understand how that felt.

God, I can recall doing 'writing exercises' that nearly made me fall over my chair with dizziness! Trying to do a number eight fried my brain utterly....and the patterns....

To this day I cannot do patterns. I cannot fit something into the correct shape.

In the National Trust shop, Natalia did the '1,2,3, folding' thing when showing customers how to fold their little shopping bags into almost nothing, whilst I stared at it, flummoxed....then smiled at the customer and got them laughing at my head.   

We had some wonderful jars of jams....I cooed over the beauty of the glass, the shape of the jars...but Natalia saw only the practical side, the difficulty in washing them, filling them again..the customer who was listening to us laughed out loud at the Creative and the Scientific brain...   :0)

School confused me. It confused my children.   

Home Educationn doesn't do that, because they learnt/learn in the way they are intended to, not in the way that they are expected to.

Oh...and two Steiner schools have won an opt out decision from having to make their toddlers write and read to the National Curriculum. Read it in the paper today...in The Times...

Yay, sock it to 'em Steiner!
And sock it to 'em Carol, too, because she's talking one helluva lot of sense. Why? Because she's living in a world that most people here don't understand and seem determined NOT to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:32 PM

Please can I just say once more

DYSLEXIA IS NOT A ******* GIFT!

whatever garbage Ron Davis would have people believe that the genius of people like Einstein, Edison etc didn't occur in spite of a specific learning difficulty but - because of it!

'This myth - the 'affliction of the geniuses' continues to be spread despite the fact that the knowledge of the definition of dyslexia and the reading of any standard biographies would immediately reveal the inaccuracies of many such claims.'


The first key to wisdom is constant questioning
By doubting we are led to enquiry and, by enquiry, we discern the truth
Peter Abelard

Understand Lizzie if I doubt the scientific validity or your anecdotal 'evidence' and question your 'ability' to discern specific learning difficulties or autism in a muscian "purely from watching them..."

Is this any more credible that your initial grossly inaccurate statement about home educators all being placed on the 'at risk' child abuse register?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:49 PM

Er...they/we *are*, Emma.

Ask Education Otherwise.

Sorry, Dyslexia IS a gift....but for way too long it's seemed far more like a bloody hard slog, because of the way children who have it, and other brain patterns like it, are treated.

The sooner schools, teachers, experts, whatever begin to realise that we are the way we are *supposed* to be, for a very important reason, the better.

And actually, it'd be REALLY cool if all the "I *Refuse* To Understand!" bastards stood up and apologised for what they've done to so many deeply creative, intelligent, kind, shy, sensitive people.

The Apology could start with SCHOOL!

Hey, now wouldn't THAT be something?

:0)


My builder? Dyslexic. He 'sees' the finished room in a flash. Always had trouble reading and writing...is only just starting to realise that the GIFT he has as a builder is because of the way his brain thinks, interprets, processes..

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 01:56 PM

Heh... just found this in the dyscalculia forum...

"welcome...glad you found us! i was diagnosed with all tipes of LD in 3rd grade. now i am 13 and doing fine, mostly because of my amazing mom who is homeschooling me"

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 02:06 PM

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 02:13 PM

Lizzie you have probably realized by now that although I suffer from a couple of recognized specific learning difficulties I am NOT a shy, sensitive person; but, my education has helped to make me a very independent minded person - certainly not necessarily prepared to accept everything posted by a pressure group or someone merely regurgitating their claims!

In fact, I am left handed and have been scored high on spatial awareness/skills although my first career was in the scientific rigours of chemical research.

I have had the pleasure to meet in my life a number of talented people both artistically, musically etc - a few of them (more or less what you might expect statistically) also have a specific learning difficulty - they are all individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 02:35 PM

I never said that the proportion of gifted people with learning disabilities was greater than anyone else.

Phew, at last! Then we can completely discount any postings made about gifted people with learning difficulties. It is, as you say, just anecdotal. My feeling is that it is a complete red herring but I was awaiting evidence to the contrary. I wonder why it was brought up in the first place, especially by someone who, just a short while up the page, was expounding the values of constructive communication?

I suppose it is my lack of social skills that prevents me from understanding special people...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:13 PM

Listen, I am not responsible for other people putting words in my mouth and mischaracterizing the things I say. If people want to do that, it's entirely their responsibility, and it has nothing whatever to do with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:15 PM

"My feeling is that it is a complete red herring but I was awaiting evidence to the contrary....."

Nope, it's no red herring.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:18 PM

And why my anecdotal mentioning of the fact that it is common for people who have learning disabilities to do well in creative endeavors would hit such a nerve is a bit puzzling to me. Does someone have such a strong need to feel superior to those who have learning disabilities that they can't cope with the idea that some of them can be better at some things than they are? That seems extremely small to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:22 PM

It could be a kipper

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:38 PM

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:49 PM

I see we are now getting to the point where nonsense takes over.

The idea that dyslexia is a gift is simple horlicks. It is a specific learning difficulty. You can call it a disability of you like - I don't and never have. End of.

And Ron Davis, who calls it a gift, also calls it a problem and sets out to cure it. Remarkably he has just the answer to get rid of the "gift". and it is a mere £1500.00. You know, if I knew the answer I'd give it away.

Here is what he says -

Davis Dyslexia Correction® provides tools to overcome problems with reading, writing, and attention focus. These methods enable children and adults to recognize and control the mental processes that cause distorted perceptions of letters and words. Once students can be sure that their perceptions are accurate, they can resolve the underlying cause of their learning difficulties through methods that build upon their creative and imaginative strengths.

Actually - that's precisely what specialist dyslexia teachers do if it is appropriate, though it isn't always.

The only difference is it's £1500.00 less expensive. The problem is that instead of spending the money on such specialist dyslexia teachers (and they are very rare) people prefer not to pay taxes.

It also costs money to train such teachers. The vast majority are practising teachers who study at night and perhaps get one day a week off their normal job to do the training and work experience it entails.

And the idea that someone can tell which musicians are dyslexic by looking at them is also horlicks unless you are a most insensitive person.

How could anyone know for sure? Do someone really go up to them and say "Excuse me but it seems to me that you are dyslexic - do you mind me asking if it is true" or some such nonsense?

And how does anyone then know they have told you the truth? I can think of a number of reasons why they might not want someone to know.

Anyone with this remarkable instinct for people with dyslexia shouild think about selling their services~!! It would save a lot of people a lot of money to have someone standing there watching people perform various tasks and saying "Dyslexic - Not Dyslexic - Not sure" as people did things in front of them.

Anyone who claims this might ponder on how they know someone is dyslexic from a bad speller.

I am still waiting for someone to show me the detailed evidence that shows a connection between dyslexia and creativity.

The Sheffield College where I used to work tries to test every single student for dyslexia and similar specific learning difficulties on entry, first of all with a simple screening test and then later if necessary with a more complex series of tests if needed. Many schools do not have that sort of facility, the college does.

Not infallible I grant you but it does sometimes help with early identification. In fact many specific learning difficulties are picked up at an early age nowadays - well before people get to college. Whether schools can afford to do something about them is a different matter.

(The one-to-one teaching that is often needed with learning difficulties is very expensive. It is why I believe in some cases that home education is an alternative. But I also believe such education needs to be structured and precise. I also feel a good case can be made for subsidising this work).

As far as I am aware there is little difference between the departments of the college as to the proportion of students with any particular difficulty. The particular part of the Sheffield College where I worked is a specialist art, sport and computing college with a wide range of "A" level provision as well, so you would have thought something might have shown up. As far as I know (1988 - 2003 when I worked there) nothing has.

Now if anyone has any evidence to contradict that from somewhere else? I really would love to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 03:59 PM

Does someone have such a strong need to feel superior to those who have learning disabilities that they can't cope with the idea that some of them can be better at some things than they are?

Nope. I am no better than anyone. By the same token no-one is better than me and I just do not like random 'facts' thrown in to cloud the issue. Maybe that is my learning difficulty but if so, there is nothing I can do about it.

Nope, it's no red herring.

Lizzie - proof, proof, proof.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 04:10 PM

And why my anecdotal mentioning of the fact that it is common for people who have learning disabilities to do well in creative endeavors would hit such a nerve is a bit puzzling to me. Does someone have such a strong need to feel superior to those who have learning disabilities that they can't cope with the idea that some of them can be better at some things than they are? That seems extremely small to me.

Carol it is precisely because it is anecdotal.

I don't know it is common and neither do you.

Some of the art teachers I worked with were astonishingly creative. So were there musical counterparts. As far as I am aware none were dyslexic - but without tests it is sometimes hard to tell.

I worked with some very high level sports people - at least one olympic medal winner was dyslexic, at least two world champions weren't. It doesn't get us anywhere.

I have no such superiority complex, and even now I am happy to learn.

So show me your evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 04:22 PM

And sorry to go back to an earlier part of this but something Lizzie said about her daughter being "headhunted" puzzled me.

That's a term usually used for high level jobs which need very specific skills and there is a good reason for it.

The reason people only use it in that context because to "headhunt" people is against all good employment practise in terms of equal opprtunities and can be seen to be discriminatory. Personally I am sure the National Trust would not want to be seen to bedoing that.

Of course if it is just local work, in a shop for example then people are generally not too bothered. Nothing wrong with it - but even then there might be other people who could have done the job equally well who might feel aggrieved that someone was "headhunted" for such a position.

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 04:23 PM

Researchers in several different countries claim that 40 - 60% of all prisoners are dyslexic. That's a wonderful gift.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 04:43 PM

Well then here is some evidence...

"Unusual Creativity

LD/ADD students are usually much more creative than their classmates. They approach problems in an exploratory manner and express themselves and their ideas in a more open-ended way. From poems to mechanical inventions to business ventures, they tend to keep tinkering with their design long after others consider the creative process complete. The products of their inventive thinking are often so simple, yet so totally original, that others gape in wonder, saying, "What an ingenious idea"."

Click

I expect I will be able to find more.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 04:46 PM

It's definitely true that a disproportional amount of people who are incarcerated in the US have learning disabilities. And that is a testament to how absolutely abysmal the education system in the US has been at providing people with learning disabilities the things they need.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 04:49 PM

"Does someone have such a strong need to feel superior to those who have learning disabilities that they can't cope with the idea that some of them can be better at some things than they are?"

Carol, speaking entirely for myself of course, I might also say that neither do some of us with specific learning difficulties experience any strong need to feel superior to those without either, unlike some who have posted here.

As I also said, I have been scored high on spatial awareness/skills

By my understanding the right hemisphere recognizes the picture, the overview or the context, while the left brain translates that image into words - my score was exactly 50/50!

But I have also - thank you my wonderful teachers - been taught the skills of logic and debate and scientific enquiry although do you think these might be the 'gift' of specific learning difficulties too Lizzie?

I have also recieved compliments on my culinary skills - another 'gift'? - well I never realized how much I had to thank dysgraphia for Lizzie!
Obviously nothing to do with a lifelong love of cooking and (some unfortunate) experimentations :)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 04:55 PM

The schools are to blame for the prisoners but not applauded for their success with ones who make it. Hardly seems right.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 05:06 PM

Yup. That's right. It is a chronic problem, and until the schools improve their performance in this regard, it would be no more appropriate to congratulate them than it would be to congratulate a doctor on his or her successes if their negligence was causing large numbers of their patients to die.


On the subject of feeling superior, personally, I would just like to see people understand the differences, to appreciate that it's ok for those of us who have differently wired brains to be the way we are. That we have our own abilities, and that, although they aren't always understood or recognized by the larger population, they still have value of their own.

Even at my age, I am still often judged as being less than adequate by people who don't understand how I experience the world, and who don't see that while my way of experiencing it has its problems, it also has benefits as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 06:04 PM

Get over it, Dave. I have a home-educated daughter, who has chosen to take no school examinations, instead going directly to an Open University course. She has taught herself far more than her 'teachers' ever taught her. She was given a love of learning by her parents...and this was switched off by her teachers.

She rose above it all, worked damned hard and now has the respect of all those have employed her in the past, and now employ her in the present. She was chosen for her National Trust job by a manager who thought she was the right person for it. I call that 'headhunting' because she was in another job at the time, and had not put in for a new job back then.   She was known about, thought emminently suitable for the job and so, was offered it.

You can take the National Trust to court over it, if you so wish, if that will give you some kind of thrill and make you feel like a big chap.

If it irks you deeply that I have wonderful kids, who are thought highly of by other people. Tough shite.

You may 'teach' dyslexic people, but you sure as hell don't understand 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 06:06 PM

"Yup. That's right. It is a chronic problem, and until the schools improve their performance in this regard, it would be no more appropriate to congratulate them than it would be to congratulate a doctor on his or her successes if their negligence was causing large numbers of their patients to die.


On the subject of feeling superior, personally, I would just like to see people understand the differences, to appreciate that it's ok for those of us who have differently wired brains to be the way we are. That we have our own abilities, and that, although they aren't always understood or recognized by the larger population, they still have value of their own.

Even at my age, I am still often judged as being less than adequate by people who don't understand how I experience the world, and who don't see that while my way of experiencing it has its problems, it also has benefits as well. "


BRILLIANTLY put, Carol! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 06:19 PM

Carol,
I have many dyslexic, learning disabled, autistic and even mentally ill schizophrenics in my family and social circle. My son spent eight years in Special Ed; depression and schizophrenia are in the family genes; my company hires people who are different.
All have some difficulty in some social situations. Some have been institutionalized for their own proyection. None - I repeat NONE - allow these difficulties to invade their life or their self respect. Not one. Not one of them wears their problems on their sleeves (and I assure you, their problems are mammoth) as you and Lizzie do. Is it at all possible that it is your attitude and not your disability causing your perceived difficulties?
This is not an attack. Look at how you interact with people just here on Mudcat. Always accusing, always complaining, always belittling anyone who has an alternate opinion or view of life. Then look at others here on Mudcat who have the same difficulties/gifts that you have who are able to function socially, make a point without attacking and accept an alternate opinion as valid FOR THE POSTER if not themselves.
No one here judges you as less adequate. Many do take offense at your insistance that you are right they are wrong and the world has somehow cheated you.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 06:52 PM

Well said, Mary.

Just back from the loacl church hall quiz night where I discussed this subject with my daughters, both with learning difficulties. They do find it highly offensive that people consider that, because they have learning difficulties, they are somehow more creative than others. The creative work they have done has been a result of hard work, not because of some special 'gift'. Anecdotal of course but as this seems to be acceptatble here...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 06:55 PM

What a load of baloney, Mary.

Sorry, but I don't wear dyslexia on my sleeve. I don't brand my children either...

I tell you what though, I got damn bloody mad when I saw the terrible damage that school had done to my child...and if more parents felt that anger, admitted to some of the terrible things that are going on, then that institution would be a far better place, because it would have to be.

I don't take to people telling me how I should be. I AM me.

Carol feels the same, I think.   

I've been hounded on the internet for the way I write. I've had a witch hunt out for years...You saw what another Mudcatter had written about me on Facebook, and no, it was NOT a page made by the BNP.

I have never demanded that these strumped up twits write in another way, or told them how or what to write about.

School is fine for some kids and it's hell for others..and that is the part that is not taken into account..the 'hell' bit.

I find it appalling that so many people suffer because of ignorant people who know *nothing* about dyslexia, yet profess to knowing it all.

You said to Carol, above...

"..Is it at all possible that it is your attitude and not your disability causing your perceived difficulties?.."

Sigh...

Mary, Carol does NOT have a 'disability'! That's the whole point of what she, and I, have been trying to say! Dyslexia is NOT a disability, it's purely my brain, Carol's brain, whoever's brain, lighting up in different parts, that's all.

And if I/we get bloody angry at times with those who constantly tell us...me at least..how I should be, or seek to belittle me, poring over every word I write, looking for faults...is it any wonder!

Holey Moley!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 06:59 PM

Oh geez....

David! ALL creative people work hard!

It takes my daughter weeks of hard work to create her paintings, but the finished result is overwhelmingly beautiful and people literally gasp, but she *still* to this day, has no confidence in her artwork because of how she was treated at school.

Dyslexia is not a learning *difficulty*, it is purely another *normal* way of learning, which differs from the way in which 'they' want your daughters to learn.

If they were allowed to learn in a natural way, a way natural to them, that is, they wouldn't have ANY difficulties at all, because they'd just follow their minds!

Yes, it really is that easy!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 07:01 PM

ADVANTAGES of Dyslexia


THE ADVANTAGES of BEING DYSLEXIC and ADD

WHAT CAN DYSLEXIC AND ADD PEOPLE DO better than others ?

Strengths of Creative Thinkers *
Many people with learning differences of Dyslexia and ADD are capable of some extraordinary

thinking and can be extremely successful once they learn some coping strategies. This is why

we prefer to call them, more appropriately, Creative Thinkers. Some of the Creative Thinkers

strengths are:

Persistence,

Concentration,

Perception,

Vivid imagination,

Creativity,

Drive and ambition,

Curiosity,

Thinking in pictures instead of words,

Superior reasoning,

Capable of seeing things differently from others,

Love of complexity,

Simultaneous multiple thought processing,

Quickly mastering new concepts, and

Not following the Crowd.



Most people who are not dyslexic and rate low on the scale of Creative Thinking, are verbal

learners, based on word acquisition by hearing. Verbal learning is limited to the speed of a

person's speech. This auditory information goes into the conscious mind, so that the non-dyslexic

person is aware of the information.



Thinking and learning in pictures rather than words is thousands of times faster, and is

subliminal, going directly into the subconscious mind. This visual learning style is what a

Creative Thinker uses. The acquisition of information as pictures create an immense amount

of multi-dimensional information, that can be manipulated in many forms by the brain to

enable intuitive thinking, perception, and other interesting thought processes. Frequently this

learning style leads to thought delays, because of the tremendous amounts of information

processed.



Unusual Abilities of Some Creative Thinkers
Although each Creative Thinker is distinctly different in their mental capabilities, some of these abilities can be evidence of the intellectual and creative powers of a genius waiting to be unlocked. Imagine feeling that someone is behind you before you can see or hear them. Some Creative Thinkers have mental abilities that go well beyond this common phenomena and approach the supernatural. Examples include:

Controlling the perception of time, causing it to operate in slow motion or rapidly,


Doing complex math in their head quickly; but not knowing how they did it,


Seeing a solution from a mental examination of the components, such as projecting interest rates for investments, or creating a new computer chip,


Communicating telepathically with others, or


Controlling the outcome of events, like calling the correct numbers on dice before they are rolled.

Although not all Creative Thinkers possess these talents, extrasensory perceptions like these represent abilities that are uniquely valuable to some; but ludicrous to others who do not understand the learning and mental processing differences of making effective use of the right side of the brain by Creative Thinkers.



Some of the Successful People Who Admit That They Are
Dyslexic or ADD Include:


Tom Cruise - Actor

Jay Leno - Television personality (Tonight Show )

Thomas Edison - Inventor

Albert Einstein - Inventor

Winston Churchill - British Prime Minister, WWII

George Bush- Former US President

George Patton - US General, WWII

George Burns - Comedian

Whoopi Goldberg, Actress

Danny Glover, Actor

Cher - Actress, Singer

SOURCE: "The Many Facets of Dyslexia"





Some Common Traits Associated with the Learning Differences
of Dyslexia and ADD
Each person is different and will have a unique combination of the common traits listed below.

1. Thinks visually.

2. Daydreams.

3. Easily distractible.

4. Aware of everything.

5. Able to do multiple things at the same time.

6. Seeks stimulation.

7. Highly creative.

8. Immature social behavior, says what comes to mind.

9. Poor penmanship.

10. Difficulty remembering names.

11. Seeks immediate gratification.

12. Impulsive and impatient.

13. Suffers from motion sickness.

14. Can see patterns into the future.

15. Capable of intense short-term focus.

16. Quick decision maker.

17. Bored by ordinary tasks.

18. Risk taker.

19. Have had problems with ears.

20. More independent than a team player.

21. Sees the big picture.

22. Curious.

23. Experience thoughts as reality.

24. Subject to disorientation.

25. Sometimes has psychic - extrasensory abilities.

26. Highly intuitive.

27. Short attention span, inattentive.

28. Has a vivid imagination.

29. Artistic.

30. Has a sense of under achievement.

31. Have spatial orientation problems (left/right, north/south)

32. Talks excessively.

33. Reverses letters and numbers.

34. Slow reader when young.

35. Difficulty with math concepts.

36. Problems with self-esteem.

37. Problems mastering phonics and spelling.

38. Problems understanding the rules of grammar.

39. Reads best by memorizing, the "Look-Say System."

40. Always active-constantly thinking,

41. Learns best by hands on, rather than lecture or reading.

42. Low tolerance for frustration.

43. Realize that they are different from others.

44. Take longer to think and respond than others.

45. Able to create a complete mental picture from pieces.

46. Somewhat disorganized.

47. Capable of changing on a moments notice.

48. Have phobias: like fear of dark, heights, speaking in public.

49. Prefer unstructured situations with freedom.

50. Feels like they see problems from the perspective of a helicopter flying above

forests of problems rather than working from the root of trees in one forest.

51. See things that others don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 07:05 PM

I didn't expect a rational response. Thank you, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 07:13 PM

I wish I could master cut and paste as well as some. I would include lists of people who have achieved wonderful things without the help of this wonderful gift. Does it automaticaly come with this alarmingly patrononising attitude to 'special' people?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 07:29 PM

"Does it automaticaly come with this alarmingly patrononising attitude to 'special' people?"

It really is patronising Dave, infinately more so than the 'patronising' allegation Lizzie made against me for something someone else said!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 07:39 PM

Excuse me, but I do NOT wear my disabilities on my sleeve. What I have been saying is a very integral part of any discussion of home schooling. I am responding to people who think that schools do a better job with kids who have learning disabilities than home schooling parents can. This may be true for SOME PEOPLE, but it is not true for everyone.

To say that simply by offering a different perspective based on my own experiences, I am wearing my disabilities on my sleeve shows the kind of ignorance that I have been talking about. To think that I should not be able to offer these perspectives without being accused of wearing my disabilities on my sleeve suggests that the person saying that would prefer people with learning disabilities to just shut up and accept whatever we are told. That's an incredibly patronizing and self-important attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 07:42 PM

And by the way, I have not said that I am more creative than anyone else on this thread. This tendency for someone to continually mischaracterize what I have said shows a huge disability on the part of the person doing it. That disability would be a profound lack of honesty and character.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 07:44 PM

the person with specific learning difficulties should just shut up and accept whatever we are told on this thread?

No ******* way Carol!

Believe it!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 07:46 PM

Hell, I have not even said that there are more creative people with learning disabilities than those without. All I said is that it is common for people with learning disabilities to do well in creative endeavors.

Really, this need to outright lie about what I have said is just nasty and totally uncalled for.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 08:00 PM

More on that claim that Einstein was dyslexic. Does this look like a dyslexic person's work to you?

Einstein 1925 manuscript

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Goose Gander
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 08:01 PM

I don't believe there is only one 'correct' way for one's brain to work. People called dyslexic or asperger's certainly process information differently, but that doesn't mean they have a 'bad brain' (cue the Ramones here). I have a friend working on a Ph.D in psychology dealing with border-line autism not as a problem to be 'fixed' but rather as part of a continuum of possible learning and processing styles.

We didn't have to 'fix' my brother, he just sort of grew out of his 'phase' - first through lots of physical kinetic activity (skateboarding, break-dancing, and surfing) then discovering and loving mathematics which led to computer programming.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 08:16 PM

I've been hounded on the internet for the way I write. I've had a witch hunt out for years.

Not by me Lizzie. I have complained vociferously about WHAT you write.

Subtle difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 08:20 PM

I think it's important for people with learning differences to be able to use the word disability, and I won't stop doing it. This is because sometimes living in a world of people who mostly don't have these differences becomes a disability, because things aren't set up to accommodate people with these kinds of differences.

For instance, if someone who can't walk wants to go to school, they are allowed to use a wheel chair to get around the school. The inability to walk does not prevent them from being able to learn and do well in that environment because they are allowed to use tools that other people don't use in order to compensate for their deficiency. People with learning disabilities need to be able to use tools that help them cope with and adapt to the school environment also (if they are not being home schooled). For instance, in order for me to learn math, I need to not be always banging my head against my inability to retain and process numbers in my head. I need to have a tool that does that for me. When I was a child, I usually failed math or got at best, Ds (two above failing). It wasn't that I couldn't understand and learn the processes, I just couldn't hold the numbers in my head in order to actually do the process.

When I went back to college in my 30s armed with the new knowledge of my specific learning disability, I was able to insist, because of the Americans with Disabilities Act, that I be allowed to have either a calculator or a multiplication table with me at all times in math class. I was allowed to have a multiplication table and I got a B in that class. I would have gotten an A, but using the table took me much longer than the other students took, and I had to leave class before I was finished with the final exam to go pick up my son from daycare.

Had I not been able to call what I have a disability, I would have failed that class.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 08:43 PM

"I've been hounded on the internet for the way I write"

No Lizzie, it's because you write as 'facts' things that are simply inaccurate or serious misreprentations of the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 09:18 PM

Carol,
By the mid-70s everyone was using a calculator in math and business classes. In the 80s IN PUBLIC SCHOOL my son did not bang his head against his disability. He learned his way - with ADD and dyslexia. Long before he entered Summit, Public School teachers were showing me ways of helping him learn his way. Ranting on and on about your experiences 30 years ago is no more productive than me ranting on and on about physical abuse in Catholic schools. It has been recognized; it has changed. Everyone else has moved on. Why do you need to repeatedly retell the story of your childhood? Move on.

And you do wear your disabilties on your sleeve while everyone else has taken advantage of new attitudes and developments and moved on. I REPEAT: "Is it at all possible that it is your attitude and not your disability causing your perceived difficulties?"


Lizzie,
You have been barred repeatedly from various websites because you make a nuisance of yourself and prevent the websites from functioning. Your special gifts do not entitle you to screw around with the rest of us.

You listed 51 traits of people with dyslexia and ADD. On any given day I exhibit at least 30 of them and when my thyroid goes "off" all of them. So what?

This list supposedly shows how dyslexic people surpass the norm:
Persistence,

Concentration,

Perception,

Vivid imagination,

Creativity,

Drive and ambition,

Curiosity,

Thinking in pictures instead of words,

Superior reasoning,

Capable of seeing things differently from others,

Love of complexity,

Simultaneous multiple thought processing,

Quickly mastering new concepts, and

Not following the Crowd.



A total crock! It is a list of traits attributable to successful people in every walk of life, dyslexic or not.
Just because you find it in print does not make it gospel truth. You claim you are dyslexic. How is it that you are incapable of grasping even the simplest idea put forth by anyone here or anywhere else on the web?

Now back to our regular progamming:
You do not understand because you do not live in my mind. I teach truth and love and decency in a world full of anger and hate and my son is good while Dave's girls have been indoctrinated by a system that does not allow them to see that they are better than anyone else and yadayadayada

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 09:23 PM

She was chosen for her National Trust job by a manager who thought she was the right person for it. I call that 'headhunting' because she was in another job at the time, and had not put in for a new job back then.

Lizzie you can call it what you like. "Headhunting" has a specific meaning in the context of employment and I have explained - patiently - why it has a specific meaning.

You can take the National Trust to court over it, if you so wish, if that will give you some kind of thrill and make you feel like a big chap.

Lizzie - why on earth would I want to do that? I thought possibly, just possibly, that you were using the term in a wrong way. And that using it like that could possibly have legal repercussions. Had someone done that for me I would have been grateful. Especially when they were right. Let me move on.....


Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 07:01 PM

ADVANTAGES of Dyslexia

When you did that why did you not include this disclaimer?

We try to make our information as accurate and helpful as possible, but give no guarantee that the information available through this website is accurate or up to date and accept no responsibility for errors or omissions.

When your "kids", as you charmingly call, them were teaching themselves the use of computers and the internet, did you mention anything about the dangers of indiscriminate cutting and pasting of material?

If it irks you deeply that I have wonderful kids, who are thought highly of by other people. Tough shite.

Why on earth would that worry me? I am delighted your children are doing so well, and if, as you tell us - this is the result of your insights into dyslexia, great.

I asked you how you brought up these wonderful young people, because you claim perceptions that many of us don't have. Especially teachers.

You claim insight into musicians and dyslexia and all I want you to do is share these wonderful insights you have with the rest of us.

Which - remarkably in my opinion - you refuse to do. And I happen to think that is a shame that we cannot all benefit from your talents.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 10:05 PM

Stop patronizing me please, and acting like I couldn't possibly know what I am talking about.

They don't allow calculators in remedial math.

It was not easy for me to get them to let me have a multiplication table. They did not allow me to have a calculator for REMEDIAL MATH

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 03:10 AM

Yeah, you're right, Dave....You are SO much better than me. I apologise most humbly and beg forgiveness at your feet for being born so bloody daffy brained that it drives you insane. I think it's wonderful that God chose you to educate people like me and my word, we should all be so damned grateful, because how the f*ck would we exist without people like you 'teaching' us how to think, how to write, telling us WHAT to write, picking us up on every single word we say, pointing out our faults all the time without ever believing a single word we say.

How the f*ck would we ever get to LIVE without folks like you around, huh...?

can't see why I've never seen it before, but then, heck I'm sooo stoooopid, right, so I guess it's hardly surprising...



Tell me though....as someone who (apparently) writes nothing but crap, WHY do I manage to make you incensed to the point of obsession?
WHAT is it about me that has enraged (seemingly) an entire section of the English Folk World to the point where they've had a campaign to silence me?


I tell you what, I withdraw my apology. You want to know why? Because I the Right to Write as I so choose, same as you do.   

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." - e. e. cummings

I've fought damn bloody hard for that right....and no obsessive prat will ever make me feel inferior, so perhaps they should stop trying to do it.

The difference between you and I, Dave, is that I am happy that I'm me, and you are not.

My brain is bouncy, and I LOVE it!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 03:49 AM

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." - e. e. cummings


And until EVERY school in the world has that emblazoned, proudly, above the entrance to its doors and makes it the most important lesson they 'teach', then I will *never* believe in them.

Until they stop seeing children merely as Exam Fodder and League Table Achievers, and start seeing them as Profoundly Precious Human Beings, then we ain't going nowhere.

Until they themselves can learn to let go of testing, of homework, or exams and are then freed to see the uniqueness of every child, together with the skills and creative ability of each child, things will not get better.

The people who most need to learn, in schools, are those who create schools in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 04:26 AM

Yeah, you're right, Dave....You are SO much better than me. I apologise most humbly and beg forgiveness at your feet for being born so bloody daffy brained that it drives you insane.

I don't think that and I have never said it. Apart from that every word is true.

can't see why I've never seen it before, but then, heck I'm sooo stoooopid, right, so I guess it's hardly surprising...

Well you have said that Lizzie - I certainly haven't.

The difference between you and I, Dave, is that I am happy that I'm me, and you are not.

Lizzie I only ever comment on your posts when you write unsubstantiated rubbish and I comment on the rubbish not on you. And the evidence is there for people to see.

But of course it is much easier to make personal attacks on people, rather than inform people how you can tell a msucician who is dyslexic, autistic purely by watching them.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 10:49 AM

I can tell a musician who's dyslexic, autistic...purely from watching them...

I do honestly wish I could - but then as you correctly point out I don't have your bouncy brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 04:30 AM

Yup, some have brains which they get from 'Cadavers R Us'...

Personally, I love the Tigger Brains best, but heck, wadda I no, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 04:55 AM

I also find it very rich, that when I am recounting an experience I had in which I was finally able to feel emmpowered for the first time in my life in an academic setting, and to have taken control of my environment and created a very good outcome for myself, the resident know-it-all here in the Mudcat is characterizing what I said as ranting on about what happened to me 30 years ago and wearing my disability on my sleeve.

When people advocate for themselves and their kids, and do everything in their power to ensure that their needs are met, and their kids' needs are met, this is not wearing one's disability on their sleeve. This is taking control of and responsibility for one's life and one's kids. Wearing my disability on my sleeve would be me giving up and not ever doing anything to try to correct what is wrong. Well, I'll be fucked if I will ever just sit back and not participate in a discussion about whether or not home schooling is needed for some kids with learning disabilities, and why, just so I can be sure that I won't be accused of wearing my disabilities on my sleeve by an ignorant, overbearing, busybody here in the Mudcat.

Some people really need to get over themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 05:01 AM

http://dyslexiavictoria.wordpress.com/2009/06/

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 05:20 AM

I found this comment from the link posted, rather interesting!

"recent information I found from a major New Zealand Dyslexia Awareness association [..]. They found that schools in the U.K. who used Dyslexia Friendly methods in the classrooms had amazing results. By using teaching methods that work well with Dyslexics, the whole class, including the non-Dyslexics, moved forward more quickly than if the class was taught using traditional teaching methods."

Sounds like all kids could do better with Dyslexic friendly methods?

I wasn't dyslexic, but I had a poor memory for facts (still do) and I found it very hard to concentrate on subjects that were not naturally stimulating or creatively engaging, and thus found early schooling quite challenging. As a consequence, I believed I was not very smart.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 05:36 AM

Brilliant link, Villan!

Taken from it...

"...I know that the ignorance that has surrounded Dyslexia 25 years ago is still with us now..."

YAY!

And sadly, much evidence of that is to be seen on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 07:12 AM

Well, that's another reasonable thread well and truly Lizzied...

Can I make a request for Joe or a clone to put an end to this tirade of personal abuse and complete twaddle please?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 07:23 AM

Why would you want to silence me, when I have no desire to silence you, David?

You are free to express yourself as you so wish, in my book.
Sadly, it seems that in yours, I am not.

Hmmmmmm.....

And I notice that not once have you taken issue with Dave's continuous 'harrassment' of me (and no-one else)

Double Hmmmmmmm........

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 07:34 AM

Excellent link Villan.

Not a word on there I could disagree with.

As far as I can see it is Canadian and they may be in front of what we do here. At the University in Quebec where we stayed last year, there was a notice for students about dyslexia for French speakers and they seemed very aware of different learning styles. Certainly this bi-lingualism may be a factor. Our friends in Ottawa brought up their children bi-lingually and one of them struggled because it was thought she might be dyslexic. She was tested at a very young age (and as it happens found not to be).

And I agree whole-heartedly about the whole class improving. I know when I had the quadriplegic student I referred to earlier in my class, I had to change things in the class and for the better.

When my wife was studying for her dyslexia assessment qualification she had to do some practical teaching experience and chose to work in the local primary school with a particular child. It worked really well and the headteacher and class teacher were well pleased with the progress made, not just with the particular child (who measuringly improved) but with the rest of the class.

So why does it take so long to change things when the answers are so blindingly obvious?

Well I can make some suggestions.

Some of the methods are anathema to parents who can easily revolt. When a secondary school in Sheffield tried to alter the way children were taught the parents went barmy because the children were not being taught by "traditional" methods - next to no time the press were down and around their ears. Try as he might the headteacher could not convince anyone and it went out of the window. And there is much less freedom to experiment nowadays.

We know how much difference a decent meal makes at lunchtime for many young pupils and students - remember the revolts over that? Parents feeding chips to their children through the school railings?

All people "know" about education because virtually everyone goes through some sort of education system amd "it worked for them". Look how difficult it was to stop corporal punishment in schools, and there are those who will still justify it on the grounds "I was thrashed within an inch of my life and it never did me any harm guv". See here. You might care to note that the school is Independent and Christian. Current charge is £3.600 + per year. And it goes up on joint incomes over £40,000.

In addition of course - to change things like that can be very expensive. It would take a long time to permeate the techniques through the system. Undoubtedly smaller classes help but that costs money. More computers would help and that costs money. Specialist dyslexic assessors and teachers cost money to train and the training is not easy as I explained in an earlier post. So that costs money.

All those in favour of much higher taxes to ensure better education, the benefit of which may not be fully felt for twenty years - raise your hand.

So it is possible that far from it being teachers fault that things don't change, it can be parents who "know" about education who can be just as much at fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 07:42 AM

Home schooling may be something forced upon me!. my daughter Peggy, nearly 16 and in her exam year, is a good, commited student, is well liked by all her teachers, and is in many ways a model pupil. On Tuesday, during lunch break she was using another girl's mobile phone. In lunch break, not in class. Only school knows when it is OK to communicate with others, apparently, and the punishment is confiscation ( theft)of the phone. As the phone was not hers, Peg refused to give it up and was sent home. Apparently she must attend on Monday, surrender the phone and eat humble pie, or she will be permanently excluded.....in her exam year.
   Her mum, in a controlled rage, rang the head of year, who was sorryb that it was Peg who was involved, but reitersted that rules were rules. he was told that we had an old broken mobile that she could bring in...this seemed to be acceptable!!. Peg's mum then pointed out that the school saw fit to swap a broken mobile foe a child's education, abd asked the teacher whether he was proud of the system over which he presided.
   I wish that this was an isolated incident, sadly it isn't. Every week the pape4rs carry stories of children excluded for their hair style, theuir jewellry, their piercings, the colour of their socks etc. Teachers sadly come to accept this state of affairs as normal, or even preferable. I spent many years interviewing young people for posts in teacher training, and was heartened by their sense of vocation, justice and the needs of the individual. A few years in the system and these convictions are driven underground, if not expunged totally.
This is the great fault of compulsory schooling. The perceived needs of the institution are put before those of the child, an inversion of the natural order. Chris Shute sees this dynamic as 'Micro-Fascism ( and before anyone shouts 'hyperbole' read his reasoned arguments). In short schooling is put before education, with tragic results. This is one of the reasons why so many opt for home schooling, and many more are forced into it by the escalating use of p[ermanent exclusion, currently over 10,000 every year in England and Wales.

Compulsory Schooling Disease: How Children Absorb Fascist Values by Chris Shute (Paperback - 10 Mar 1993)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 08:45 AM

That's madness, Jeff. Complete madness.   I am so sorry to read of your troubles. I really hope you are able to work something out with the school, because they are totally wrong, in every single way.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 08:45 AM

And I notice that not once have you taken issue with Dave's continuous 'harrassment' of me (and no-one else)

Probably because it isn't true, would be my guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 08:53 AM

I am all for freedom of speech until people start to yell 'fire' in a crowded theatre. A simile sadly close to the truth.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 09:09 AM

off subject but, as it was brought up in a post ....

a news article from 2002 Schools ban mobile phones
looks at the strict policy on mobile phones at Great Barr School in Birmingham where pupils and parents know that any child found with a mobile phone on their person will have it confiscated.


For different reasons to those expressed by the headmaster above the Tories have said in an education policy document that they wanted to see authority returned to teachers.
They reckoned an important part of that proposal would include a crackdown on the use of mobile phones.

David Cameron et al want to see more power handed to teachers because of concerns over disruptive behaviour and bullying in the classroom and school playground, including the increase in "happy slapping" incidents among teenagers using camera phones.

A web site aimed at assisting parents to communicate effectively with their childrens school strongly advocates that
'If you are considering buying your child a mobile, it is important to know whether they are allowed in schools so it's a good idea to look into this
Most schools will clearly outline their policy on mobile usage'

Some Times readers make their personal views known -
Should mobile phones be banned from schools?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 09:35 AM

So, do you believe that the school was correct then, Emma?

I sure as hell don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 10:18 AM

My own belief Lizzie (avoiding judgementally loaded words like 'correct') is based on the considerable evidence that mobile phones, particularly those with cameras, have been used extensively in bullying and that the head teacher - presumably in consultation with the school governors - should have the authority to ban mobile phones during school time if he/she believes it could also prevent or diminish other specific problems such as theft etc

Furthermore my personal view is that is also incumbent upon parents to familiarize themselves with the rules of their child's school as parents and teachers need to work together to promote the safety of the pupils.

As you have pointed out, if you believe schools should have no rules and exist in some state of happy anarchy then the option of home teaching is available to you.
Again, entirely personally, I also believe that the absence or non-recognition of order is not a good foundation for working life

I have answered your question; may I in return ask if you believe children should be allowed to bring anything they want into their school?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 10:50 AM

The question here is the severity of the status. At first there was an attempt to ban phones all together. being a rural area, where kids attending post school activities etc need to be able to contact their parents, phones were allowed to be carried, but not to be used in school time.
    Part of the reason for this was not the bullying issue. bad as this was, it can be done at any time. More it was an attempt to stop the kids communicating en masse. The school walkout which marked the invasion of Iraq, for instance, was organised spontaneously with the aid of texting.
   I fully agree with not using phones in lessons, perhaps even in the playground if the reasons are sound. Should a child's education be put at risk if they use one, however. Surely its a matter of scale, and how easily unthinking authoritarianism topples into bizarre and ludicrous situations.Compliance to rules should not be about blind obedience ( are you aware of thhe Milgram experiments on obedience?) but coming to accept the validity of just rules, that the young person should gradually become more involved in framing. Top down blind obedience is simply uneducational as it prevents the growth of responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 10:52 AM

in the above, for status read 'sanction'. God knows what happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 11:31 AM

As I studied social psychology at univerity I am obviously aware of Stanley Milgram's work which demonstrated, as he said

"Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process.
Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality"

Not sure a rule about confiscating a banned mobile phone and that failure to honour the rule was met by a request to surrender it quite comes under something that is "incompatible with fundamental standards of morality"

What is sad is that the apparent escalation of something as simple as an understood rule for all pupils should result in a conflict between home and school that could result in the pupils exclusion.

As one head teacher has commented conflict with parents happens

'Schools have to manage thousands of cases ..., of bullying, allegations against teachers, refusals to attend detentions, claims of injustice and grievances, sometimes tactical, felt by children whose parents feel the best way to support their child is to attack their school.'

I'm sure the school would prefer to resolve this kind of situation without draconian measures but also cannot afford, if there is to be any discipline, to have a pupil deliberately flout a rule either.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 12:27 PM

The everyday morality is that as it wasn't her phone, she would not surrender it. She expected and would accept a sanction against herself, but considered the confiscation of an innocent party's phone to be unreasonable. She showed considerable courage in standing up for her beliefs, and as i have said elsewhere, is usually a highly regarded model pupil. I am confident that had she been one of Milgram's subjects she would have refused to obey him as well.

"if there is to be any discipline"

    Of course there must be discipine, but let it vcentre on responsibility, not obedience. Has your reading extended to Alfie Kohn? If not give him a try.


Beyond Discipline
From Compliance to Community

(Alexandria, VA: Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development, 1996/2006)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 01:03 PM

How in the name of God did we manage to exist before the invention of the mobile phone? I'm astonished that I ever managed to struggle through my schooling without mobile phones. How could we possibly conduct our lives without being able to contact our friends and family - sometimes for as much as two or three WHOLE HOURS??!!

It beggars belief - but we did it!

The world's going (gone?) absolutely f***ing mad.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 01:11 PM

If, as has been suggested above, inertia prevents the schools from improving their methods of teaching students with learning disabilities, home schooling must remain an option. The home schooling environment is not subject to such limitations.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 01:21 PM

And this, from the Dyslexia Victoria Online page, proves that the situation in the US schools is far from being sufficiently improved...

"But why is it taking so long for the "powers that be" to implement the necessary changes, why aren't teachers in North America being taught about Dyslexia? I know that the ignorance that has surrounded Dyslexia 25 years ago is still with us now. We have done seven presentations to Federal and Provincial "Service Providers" and Pro-D Days for teachers in the last three months and at every single one of them we get the same comments. The Teachers and Service Providers all need more information about Dyslexia because they haven't gotten the training they need to understand or accommodate it."

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 01:31 PM

Whether or not he was dyslexic, Einstein was a classic case of someone with learning disabilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 01:36 PM

Carol, while your comment about "the situation in the US schools (being) far from sufficiently improved" may be entirely true, I', not sure if a citation from a Canadian website about the situation in Canada validates it.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 03:06 PM

Whether or not he was dyslexic, Einstein was a classic case of someone with learning disabilities.

Like what? Started learning violin at 6, calculus at 12, graduated from high school at 17 and got a teaching diploma at 21. Seems to have failed exactly one formal examination in his entire life, at 16. Didn't make much impression on anybody until his 20s, but that's hardly grounds for diagnosing a brain syndrome.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 03:46 PM

If, as has been suggested above, inertia prevents the schools from improving their methods of teaching students with learning disabilities, home schooling must remain an option. The home schooling environment is not subject to such limitations.

I have never suggested inertia is a reason, mostly we don't put enough money into it. In addition there is a lot of parental opposition to change in schools as I have pointed out.

That is why (time after time on this thread) I have agreed with home education as an option. I have even suggested a good case can be made for subsidising it. But it has to be education, it has to be structured (in whatever you way the home educator thinks might be best or appropriate) and it most certainly has to be measureable in some way or other.

If you don't think education should be structured or measureable, and it is clear that some people don't, then why call it "education"? Home or otherwise?

"But why is it taking so long for the "powers that be" to implement the necessary changes, why aren't teachers in North America being taught about Dyslexia? I know that the ignorance that has surrounded Dyslexia 25 years ago is still with us now. We have done seven presentations to Federal and Provincial "Service Providers" and Pro-D Days for teachers in the last three months and at every single one of them we get the same comments. The Teachers and Service Providers all need more information about Dyslexia because they haven't gotten the training they need to understand or accommodate it."

I did put an answer to this earlier. My answer was related to the UK, though I suspect it applies to most countries.

Try here:

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave - PM
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 07:34 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 04:11 PM

So Einstein had learning disabilities, did he?

That's one of the daftest statements I've ever heard.. He had a very high IQ though, and it's true to say that the education system effectively discriminates against that more than it does against the genuinely disabled nowadays.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 04:28 PM

and it's true to say that the education system effectively discriminates against that more than it does against the genuinely disabled nowadays.

And is it true to say that this opinion is based on detailed scientific research or just a guess?

If it is more than a guess, can you point at the evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 05:05 PM

The article says "schools in North America" and not just specifically Canadian schools. If they had meant just Canadian Schools, they would have said Canadian schools. My focus is on schools in the US (which are included in the category of North America) because that is what I am most familiar with.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 05:10 PM

Emma, if the 'penalty' for having a mobile phone had been death, would you still agree to the 'sentence' being carried out, purely because 'we have to be seen to be obeying the rules'??????

Yeesh!

We are in Orwell's 1984 here, as can be demonstrated by all of those who demand the home educators must not be free to do as THEY want, but tied in to the rules of the very place that has almost destroyed their children...

"But it has to be education, it has to be structured (in whatever you way the home educator thinks might be best or appropriate) and it most certainly has to be measureable in some way or other.

Really? WHY?

Actually, it is measurable. It is measurable in my daughter's Myspace page, Dave, if you'd care to take a look way back in this thread....It's there in the photos, not of stupid face slugging back beer on drunken nights, but of children being free to be who they are, doing what they want, not through peer pressure...free to walk the fields, visit ancient buildings, play, laugh, have fun.

You have all become so up your own arses with rules and regulations, charts, tick boxes, measuring sticks, examinations...that you have all forgotten your basic product.

School SHOULD be turning out the next generation, a generation of happy, kind, compassionate young people, who know how to laugh, how to heal, how to take care of their planet and each other. They should be filled with an absolute LOVE of learning, for the rest of their lives through.

Instead, so many of them are filled with alcohol, drugs, depression and debts.

I'll take my tutoring, thanks Dave, over yours...because my kids have had a special time in their young lives, freed of factory farm pressures poured down upon them by Slave Drivers, who would rather stop a child from going to their school than dare to see common sense.

After all, school's about making a statement, innit..and that statement is 'WE are in charge!"

'their' school? If children thought school was theirs, they'd have a whole different outlook. School isn't. It belongs to the teachers and the politicians.

"If you don't think education should be structured or measureable, and it is clear that some people don't, then why call it "education"? Home or otherwise?"

Education as it has now become, Sucks.

Learning is there for life...and we learn every single day of our lives.

This week school started injecting it's 14 year old girls with the Cervical Cancer jab...en masse...and my heart died a little bit more, not only because they have no real idea what this jab will do, its side-effects on children so young, but because cervial cancer is so on the increase in youngsters, because they are having sex when their bodies aren't ready for it, let alone their minds...

But hey, do NOT get me started on the paedeophilic sex education that so many youngsters are receiving these days, with their parents knowing nothing about it....Even teachers feel uneasy...and if I told children what teachers are telling them, I'd probably be arrested, but...no matter, line the little girls up and stick a needle in them, give them the cervical cancer jab and we'll worry about the side-effects later....

'We know it works, and it's safe, 'cos the medical companies have assured us it is!'

Yeah, right...............

And another Corporate company smacks it's lips in glee from the profit they've made out of our children...just like the Corporate Examination System is doing....

Chilling, huh?


(Then Lizzie sat back and watched them all cry out in unison that none of this was true, that school was the best thing on the planet for all children...and that home educators should be trussed up with rules, same as the rest of 'em!.

...and she wept....for the children.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 05:13 PM

30 years ago...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 05:27 PM

Einstein fits the classic description of Gifted/Learning Disabled. This quote from his sister helps explain it...

"(Albert) never was much good at the 'easy' part of mathematics. To shine, he had to move on to the 'hard' part.' In adult life his mathematical intuition was recognised as extraordinary and he could handle deftly the most difficult of tensor calculus, but it appears that arithmetic calculation continued to be an area of comparative weakness." ~ Maja Einstein"

As an adult he had difficulty keeping track of everyday kinds of information and his wife had to do most of that for him.

Gifted LD people often don't do well with the stuff that most people find the easiest to do, while excelling at things that most other people would find quite difficult, if not impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 05:29 PM

Nothing happened 30 years ago. 30 years ago, I was out of school and working in a veterniarian's office.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 05:29 PM

"Emma, if the 'penalty' for having a mobile phone had been death, would you still agree to the 'sentence' being carried out, purely because 'we have to be seen to be obeying the rules'??????"

Another question Lizzie when you didn't have the courtesy to answer mine? -

'I have answered your question; may I in return ask if you believe children should be allowed to bring anything they want into their school?'

- actually I have always opposed capital punishment - recent experience on the jury of a murder trial has convinced me I was justified in this view

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 05:31 PM

And is it true to say that this opinion is based on detailed scientific research or just a guess?

If it is more than a guess, can you point at the evidence?

I'm afraid I can't be arsed, FolkieDave. It was just an observation, not a judgement, and I certainly didn't say it to start an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 05:35 PM

Tug,
Were you aware of the rule about cell phones? I take it your daughter does not take one to school. She knew she was breaking a ruls and she knew the consequences.
Have you discussed her part in this debacle? It could have easily been avoided. Was the phone call critical? Calling her Mom to say she was ill?

How do you think the school should have handled this?
Schools have rules. Some are ridiculous, I agree. Who decides what rules to break and who gets punished? If the school makes an exception for your daughter, what about he next child who uses a cell phone in school?

Just trying to look at the whole picture.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 05:42 PM

'I have answered your question; may I in return ask if you believe children should be allowed to bring anything they want into their school?'


I answered yours....if school was 'theirs' they would have a whole different attitude to it. The fear would disappear, along with the knives..and a feeling of relaxation would eventually replace the terrible tension and stress our children are constantly under in this institution.

They'd bring many things into 'their' school....phones, music, laptops, roller blades, ipods, cameras, books......

....most of all Emma, they'd bring Laughter..because they would finally be free of the Tyranny of Education that now rules so many schools within the Western World..

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 05:43 PM

I'm afraid I can't be arsed, FolkieDave

Or to put in other way - although you said it was true - it wasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 05:44 PM

so Lizzie until your 'golden age' it's ok to bring in knives for example?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 05:47 PM

I would consider a lack of ability to move ahead with needed changes because of parental pressure and lack of money (etc) a kind of inertia (hence my use of the word), but I don't need to quibble about semantics. My point is that as long as the schools are unable to deliver the quality of services that learning disabled students need, home schooling will be a very important option.

I don't really agree that a person can't be educated without an imposed structure. I think that it's very possible for people to learn what they need to learn in the absence of structure. Especially if they have never been turned off to learning by bad experiences in structured environments. People who haven't been ruined by schools understand that there are things they need to learn in order to do the things they want. And such children tend to want to do a lot.

I used some structure when I was home schooling my son, but he had already gone through five years of public schools in the US and I didn't see changing things to being totally non-structured as being the best thing for him. But I definitely wouldn't rule it out if I was home schooling a child right from the start. The most important thing is not structure, but opportunity. Put the opportunities for learning in reach of the child, and the child will naturally take advantage of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 06:00 PM

"so Lizzie until your 'golden age' it's ok to bring in knives for example?"


You don't get it, do you?

They're bringing in knives because they don't feel safe. They don't feel safe because they're under way too much pressure and some are so angry that they want to kill not only their teachers, but their fellow pupils as well....

This is because school is NOT theirs! It is not a welcoming place, one that holds out its arms to children and young people, making them feel welcome, appreciated...It's one that wants to lop off their heads if they dare to bring in a mobile phone, then kick them out of the place for good!

School SUCKS!
Education, as it now is, SUCKS!

And if I were a child, particularly at secondary school, I'd be terrified out of my head, and ragingly angry at every bloody adult who sent me there, kept me there and forced me to learn 'stuff' I had absolutely no interest in, whilst punishing me if I didn't do it, or if I dared to use a phone!

Is it normal that kids are doing this 'Slap Happy' stuff, or whatever it's called? No, it's f*cking crazy!

But NO-ONE is asking WHY they're doing it, are they? NO ONE is looking at the bigger picture...because they're all hellbent on making the kids take 10 GCSEs so they can get to No 1 on The League Tables and keep their jobs!   

Quadruple Yeesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 06:03 PM

so do you think a school should allow pupils to bring in whatever they want now?

Don't worry I won't ask again - I don't really expect a direct answer

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 06:10 PM

Can they bring in knives? No.

Can they bring in phones? Yes.

Why? Because many of them are so frightened, stressed, worried about things that keeping in contact with their Mum or Dad, or best friend, who may be in another school, brings them comfort. Not to be used in lessons, but why not in break times? We live in a mobile phone age...

I hate them, personally.....nowt as wonderful as silence at times...


The sooner children feel that school is 'theirs' too, shared with teachers, older pupils, adults, learning all life through...the better, for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 06:14 PM

so you DO accept some rules Lizzie - thanks that's all I wanted to know.

Rant on!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 06:16 PM

It really is pointless, Emma. Every question, every different opinion results in tirades, obscenities and name calling.
Frightening to think that this is the "Ideal" taught in home schooling at least in the few cases here.

I repeat my original observation: in all of the home schooled children I have known, the only negative I have seen is a lack of social skills. All were well adjusted, well educated children.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 06:17 PM

Tug,
What does your daughter think should be done about the cell phone incident? She is the one most affected by it.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 06:43 PM

Lack of social skills?

Oh, come ON, Mary! I've seen more teachers who can't be kind or nice to their pupils than I have the other way round..

My kids will talk to anyone, of any age or background, in a kind, polite and considerate manner.

I have had daft people saying "OH, but HOW do you socialise them?" whilst backing away from us as if we have the Plague...not letting their kids come round for tea in case Little Johnny should get the Home Education bug...

All the home ed children I've met are all fine at social skills.
I'm sure some aren't though, just as I'm sure some IN school aren't either.

Hust cos you go to school doesn't mean you're good at socialising you know.

And nope, I don't answer Emma's questions in the way she demands...'cos I don't do demands.

Of course kids shouldn't take knives to school. Home Ed kids don't ever have to consider that option though, as they don't need to.

Funny though, how Emma can't bring herself to comment on most of the questions I raise, such as why no-one is caring, asking questions etc...or how much better schools would be if all generations mingled and youngsters thought of school as 'theirs'...

Gawd!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 06:46 PM

"I'm afraid I can't be arsed, FolkieDave

Or to put in other way - although you said it was true - it wasn't. "


Dave - I think it is, and you presumably think not. I can live with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 06:47 PM

The HPV vaccination programme

In the UK, girls in year 8 at school (aged 12 to 13) are OFFERED the HPV vaccine

A letter about the vaccine and a CONSENT FORM is sent to the parents of the girl before she has the vaccine.
It is up to her whether she has the vaccine.

according to Cancer Research UK
'This research means that if girls take up the vaccination the programme will prevent at least 7 out of 10 cancers of the cervix and possibly even more in the future'

The vaccine is being offered to girls from the age of 12 because they are unlikely to be sexually active and to have caught HPV.
The research so far has shown that the vaccine works best at preventing HPV infection in younger women who are not yet sexually active.


"It really is pointless, Emma."

So why do I bother?

Well, like Lizzie, I also have a 'passion'
It's A Passion for Truth!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 06:49 PM

Yes Lizzie. They do not interact readily in a group of children.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 06:52 PM

Dave - I think it is, and you presumably think not. I can live with that.

No Smokey you said it was true, not that you thought it was true.

But I can live with you not knowing the difference so long as you can.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 07:15 PM

Einstein fits the classic description of Gifted/Learning Disabled. This quote from his sister helps explain it...

"(Albert) never was much good at the 'easy' part of mathematics. To shine, he had to move on to the 'hard' part.' In adult life his mathematical intuition was recognised as extraordinary and he could handle deftly the most difficult of tensor calculus, but it appears that arithmetic calculation continued to be an area of comparative weakness." ~ Maja Einstein"

As an adult he had difficulty keeping track of everyday kinds of information and his wife had to do most of that for him.

And that is conclusively diagnostic for having a congenital brain syndrome?

Has it not occurred to you that presenting garbage science like that simply persuades people that the whole concept of learning disability is about as scientifically based as demoniac possession?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 07:21 PM

No Smokey you said it was true, not that you thought it was true.

But I can live with you not knowing the difference so long as you can.

I know the difference, but we can only say what we think.. If you want to offer anything contrary to what I said, there's nothing to stop you, and I'd be genuinely interested to hear it. If I'm wrong, then allow me to learn something rather than indulging in the pointlessness of pedantic one-upmanship. Only I'm allowed to do that :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 07:33 PM

Tug,
What does your daughter think should be done about the cell phone incident? She is the one most affected by it.
Mary

Thanks for the thoughtful question.
sadly, the authorities didn't bother to ask her that. She knows the rules, and knowingly broke them...probably an indication that she doesn't see it as very sensible.She has never even had to go to 'time out' the normal procedure when misbehaviour occurs. She feels she has been badly treated by the manner of her treatment, being called rude in a rather rude way, having other irrelevant issues raised, e.g her shirt was out of her trousers at the time! etc.
   I'm sure that she woulld accept some sort of sanction, but would not betray her friend. The price of this (possibly misguided) loyalty,however, is permanent exclusion....this gives her even less reason to see the rules as reasonable.
The staff also know that it is ridiculous, and are probably hoping for a way out, such that they are conniving with her to bring in an old, broken phone so that justice can be seen to be done.
    What do you think she may be learning from all this?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 07:35 PM

From: Smokey. - PM
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 07:21 PM

Eee........and I thought you could be arsed.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 07:40 PM

Always willing to learn, Dave.

Anyway.. speaking of pedantry, how about distinguishing the difference between 'learning difficulties' and 'teaching difficulties'?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 07:47 PM

This week school started injecting it's 14 year old girls with the Cervical Cancer jab...en masse...and my heart died a little bit more, not only because they have no real idea what this jab will do, its side-effects on children so young, but because cervial cancer is so on the increase in youngsters, because they are having sex when their bodies aren't ready for it, let alone their minds...

The vaccine is being offered at that age (actually 12/13 year olds) because the girls ARE UNLIKELY TO BE SEXUALLY ACTIVE YET, NOT because they are LIKELY to be having sex - the vaccine will be most effective for girls who are not yet sexually active.

It is NOT because cervical cancer is on the increase in youngsters, it is because having the vaccine before they become sexually active will prevent women developing the disease in ADULTHOOD.

Apart from that everything you wrote was true.

And note, I am not attacking you - but what you write. That's why I quote it in italics.

But take it personally if you feel it helps you.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 07:48 PM

'learning difficulties' and 'teaching difficulties'?

Too difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 08:04 PM

Permanent exclusion is absurd. Violence, deliberate disruption of a class, possibly theft - these could be grounds for permanent exclusion.

A cell phone call is not, at least in my opinion.

Like it or not, a cell phone is a critical tool in today's world. Lives (teenage lives) have been saved by them.

The fact that the school is participating in a deception to find a way out of the mess is very disturbing. Your daughter is being taught to find ways around the system - much like too many politicians.

I hope you or your wife will accompany her on Monday and make it clear that although the cell phone call was wrong, you stand by her decision not to forfeit property that was not her own. She will learn from this by observing how you and your wife conduct yourselves. Dignified condescension would be my approach but you do what you have to do, Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 08:07 PM

"'learning difficulties' and 'teaching difficulties'?

Too difficult. "


I think it's an important distinction to recognise which is often overlooked to the detriment of those being taught.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 08:28 PM

"It is NOT because cervical cancer is on the increase in youngsters, it is because having the vaccine before they become sexually active will prevent women developing the disease in ADULTHOOD."

Sorry..but one of the reasons that teenage girls are getting cervical cancer (in adulthood, to be pedantic) is because they're having sex with every Tom, Dick and Sebastian when they're young teenagers, in fact, sometimes, before they even reach teenagehood!

Teenage cervical cancer on the increase

Seems to me that the ones who WEREN'T having sex, now will, because they'll be thinking they're protected from getting it now.

Ah well, I guess the liberals will tell me.."Yes, Lizzie, but that's what kids are like these days..."

Pah! We've a nation of kids who've been groomed and I tell you what, the sex education they're getting at school is helping to feed that grooming.

Ho hum...

I in 3 of the Nation's children is being vaccinated....bloody scary!
I expect they'll soon insist that ALL children have it, female ones, that is...and they can give it to them from age 9...


And the beat goes on............

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 08:45 PM

Lizzie you have disturbed me greatly with some of your wildly inaccurate posts but you have now gone totally OTT

My sister is adopted after her mother died tragically young of cervical cancer!
She did NOT have sex with every Tom Dick or Harry but attitudes like yours might make people believe she did!

'I in 3 of the Nation's children is being vaccinated....bloody scary!

Are you scared that so many of our generation were vaccinated against other killer dieases?
In America some vaccinations are compuslory before a child can be admitted to a public school - but I guess that's simply more fuel for your rants about home schooling being the only 'right' approach

'I expect they'll soon insist that ALL children have it'

What earthly evidence do you have for that?


Well congratulations Lizzie - you have finally suceeded in sickening me so much with impuning the characters of women I have known who have died from this dreadful disease that I'm leaving this thread for the time being.

Have fun!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 09:03 PM

What if they came up with an effective AIDS vaccine Lizzie? Would it be a bad thing to vaccinate children?

I don't thing it's fair to imply cervical cancer is an STD, by the way. It's about as tasteful as a Helen Keller joke, in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 12:06 AM

My daughter home-schooled her three youngsters - with a twist. By the time they were in third grade she ferried them across town three days a week to a charter school where some of the parents were some of the teaching staff. My daughter has a degree in English and she worked under the supervision of a certificated teacher.

Her kids are now in university and one is finishing her last year in public high school. All of them are doing fine.

My niece and her husband have adopted NINE children, after raising two of their own. Each of them has a greater or lesser degree of fetal alcohol affect. All have been home schooled. The first three (unrelated by blood) are now almost 22 and are doing well. One is working on the streets of Tacoma with homeless children in an organization that is trying to make a difference. One has been traveling abroad for the last couple of years but has now returned to his hometown and plans to be married soon. The last one is having a more difficult time- she wants to be a professional singer and has been taking voice lessons. But now she is pregnant. The biggest problem their family has combated is teaching the children that actions have consequences.

The next three kids are two brothers and a sister- they now range in age from 12 to 15. The last three are two sisters and a brother, ranging in age from 8 to 15. The six are still being home schooled.

My niece attended college for a couple of years but does not have a degree. She however is a bright, energetic, clear-eyed, motivated and loving person.

Here in Juneau, there is a musician family whose children have always home schooled. The older daughter has put off going to university for a year so that they can tour the country as a family band at least one more time, but she is taking online college courses in the meantime.

They are traveling in their revamped greyhound bus from Iowa to Florida performing at festivals and in halls wherever they go. They'll be back in November and then leave for another three month tour in January.

If you should see any advertising about them, you would enjoy hearing them. They are multi-talented and multi-instrumental; even the youngest one, at 11, plays both the fiddle and the mando. All of them sing and the harmonies are wonderful.

The parents, by the way, also home schooled their musical education- Paul plays guitar and mandolin, Melissa the fiddle and violin. They play a lot of bluegrass and a lot of 'folky' songs and old tunes.

This is the Alaska String Band, also known as the Zahasky Family Band. They put on just about the best show I've ever seen - in addition to their singing they have a slideshow going on behind them that is very Alaskan with scenes of Alaska wildlife, marine mammals, mountains and glaciers... These are pictures they took themselves or were given them by friends.

All summer the last few years they have played in Juneau on cruiseships and up on the mountain top in a small theater.

Humph. I wasn't going to go on like that- my point is these were all home schooled. Every single one of the kids in all three of the families are social, well adjusted kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 12:41 AM

Garbage science? I guess someone is calling the educators and psychologists who specialize in gifted/learning disabled people, practitioners of "garbage science". There's nothing wrong with someone like Einstein being gifted/LD. But the thought sure seems to be threatening to some people.

http://www.slideshare.net/drummosh/twice-exceptional

http://www.gifted.uconn.edu/nrcgt/newsletter/spring98/sprng984.html

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 12:56 AM

Ironically, I haven't seen anything so far from the poster who is throwing around terms like "garbage science" that doesn't itself fall into that category.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:28 AM

"Humph. I wasn't going to go on like that- my point is these were all home schooled. Every single one of the kids in all three of the families are social, well adjusted kids."

Well, I'm glad you did 'go on like that', Ebbie. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:20 AM

You know Lizzie I do sometimes wonder if you actually read what you write and if what you do on these threads consists of googling for a headline that you think supports your case and posting a link to it.

Did you actually read that article on the rise in cervical cancer that you posted to?

Here is what you wrote:

This week school started injecting it's 14 year old girls with the Cervical Cancer jab...en masse...and my heart died a little bit more, not only because they have no real idea what this jab will do, its side-effects on children so young, but because cervial cancer is so on the increase in youngsters, because they are having sex when their bodies aren't ready for it, let alone their minds...

Here is what the article you linked to actually said:

They noticed that between 1979 and 2003, the incidence of cervical cancer had increased by 1.6% per year. When they examined the data more closely, they found that people aged 15 to 19 were driving that increase, with the rate going up 6.8%, Birch told the Teenage Cancer Trust's fifth international conference in London today.

exactly why that is the case is unclear, she says. Most cases of cervical cancer are caused by the human papilloma virus. [My emphasis, not in the original]

So let's get it clear. The increase is in 15-19 year olds and they don't know the reason why.

The vaccine is being given (by choice - not compulsory) to 12 -13 year olds and it is a preventative, so that if (by 15-19 years of age) they do become sexually active there is preventative in place.

In other words the article you posted a link to supports the case for vaccination. Exactly the opposite of what you intended.

Like I said Lizzie, apart from the facts, every word you wrote was true.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:35 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Ebbie - PM
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 12:06 AM

Seems to me that the family you quote Ebbie are a great example of home education. They seem from what you say to exemplify the best in home education. Their parents have used their own skills to pass skills onto their children in the home. I call that home education.

Most of the talented young musicians in the folk music world I have met have done it in their spare time whilst at school and I make no judgement of which is these methods is better or worse.

But one thing is for certain, I bet the Alaskan students you talk about practised on a regular and probably frequent basis in a structured environment of starting with the simplest music and moving onto the more complex. Just as the ones who did it in their spare time did.

There are people who play by ear of course and are self-taught - but they all practise and they do it in a structured way. I have never met anyone who could simply pick up an instrument and play it without any musical education and practise whatsoever.

But Lizzie quotes it as an example of fine "home education" without really understanding what went on.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:38 AM

"But Lizzie quotes it as an example of fine "home education" without really understanding what went on."

Oh f*ck off, you patronising prat.....

And if Joe now decides to ban me from Mudcat, then those words are worth every penny, because you really are a real pain in the arse, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 06:23 AM

Garbage science? I guess someone is calling the educators and psychologists who specialize in gifted/learning disabled people, practitioners of "garbage science"

No, I'm calling YOUR reasoning about Einstein garbage, and saying it brings other people's work into undeserved disrepute. (Neither of the links you provided says anything at all in support of your assertion).

Do you really want people given diagnostic labels on so little information as you've been doing with Einstein? You've been saying that the syndromes you've been talking about are organic, probably caused by variations in brain anatomy, and not to be defined behaviourally - and here you are confidently diagnosing them based on no more than anecdotes about behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 09:40 AM

Oh f*ck off, you patronising prat.....

And if Joe now decides to ban me from Mudcat, then those words are worth every penny, because you really are a real pain in the arse, Dave.

Well Lizzie if Joe decides to ban you that is his prerogative. I shall certainly not complain. And actually whilst you believe your words are worth a lot, certainly in monetary terms as you have just suggested - they aren't. Unless unlike the rest of us you are getting paid for writing on here. Somehow I doubt it.

You can slag me off all you like Lizzie and frequently have. When you gush over artists I rarely comment. And I rarely comment on your other posts. I only comment when I believe your are writing utter tosh.

If you believe that is patronising, I do wonder how you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 09:56 AM

Ebbie,
That is an amazing story. Fetal alcohol syndrome is an overwhelming disability. To take it on multiple times and succeed even once is incredible.
Has your niece ever written down how she went about it?
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:50 AM

I'm not the one who first suggested that Einstein was gifted/LD, and the reasons I gave did not first come from me. The only reason I'm even familiar at all with those ideas is because I got them from the people who are experts on people who are gifted/LD.

When I say that learning disabilities are not just behavioral, I'm talking about what they are and how they are experienced. Observed behaviors are a part of the evaluation process (along with other things), and behaviors are the criteria that define them for the purpose of the professionals who work with people who have learning disabilities (and giftedness), but those criteria do not help anyone understand how they are experienced by those who have them. Which was the point I was making previously.

I have come to the conclusion that the person who is so threatened by the idea that Einstein could be gifted/LD really has no background whatever in any aspect of education, or in learning disabilities and giftedness. The things I have been saying, I got from the professionals and experts whose help I sought out when I was advocating for my son in the schools. Anyone for whom these things are totally unknown and unheard of can't possibly have any background whatever in these areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 12:31 PM

Folkiedave, you have described well the method the Zahasky family uses. The family practises a great deal and I remember when Abby (Abigail) used to stand alongside them with a mando or a fiddle in hand and just strike the occasional lick. She still doesn't play on every number but she now has her own little band with kids her own age and they sound good.

Sins, it is an amazing story, in my mind. Linda and Jack started out taking in foster kids and then started adopting some of them. Even now they are an emergency drop for kids of all ages.

Linda admired my mother a great deal- over the years my mother took in more than 30 children, ending up adopting two of them. She had 9 kids of her own and Linda quips that she is just like her grandmother: She had two kids and adopted nine.

How she and her husband do it, I don't quite know. I do know they are very hands on people, spending lots of time with their family and Linda also attends all kinds of conferences and seminars. They also are outdoorsy people- their main away-from-activity over the years has been camping in National and State Parks. In Oregon, where they live, adoptive/foster parents park for free.

Two years ago they bought a large motor home and took the whole family on a three-month tour of America, spending several weeks in the Washington DC area. This was while they were a-waiting the delivery and installation of a custom-built mobile home that would fit all of them. They parked the mobile home on their daughter an son in law's land and Linda often cooks the evening meal at the main house for all of them, including her daughter and son in law..

Linda and Jack's daughter, Jacqui, is cast in the same mold as her mother- and is perhaps even more so. She is a Nurse Practitioner and a midwife as well as teaching nursing in George Fox College.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,Daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:00 PM

I am a 15 year old girl and I have been reading this thread. Some really horrible things have been said about people like me and my friends, and I don't think the person who has said them really knows very much about what is going on in schools in England right now. Maybe they have read certain headlines and think that they know what's really going on, but even a naive little 15 year old like me knows that newspapers write what they think will sell more papers, and you have to be careful what you believe. We are having our cervical cancer jabs next week at my school. We are all 15 and I will be 16 next month. None of my friends is having sex yet and neither am I. I really resent what this Lizzie Cornish has said about all young girls in England having sex when they are not even teenagers or in their early teens and basically being slags. Do you think that we are not clever enough to be able to make responsible choices? It seems that you think we can't make these choices because we are at schools which are abusing us, and make us want to jump off roofs. I am really really sorry to disappoint you, but we are fine. Yes, school does suck in certain ways because everyone has subjects they don't like and teachers who you don't get on with, and groups of girls who can be bitches (I am at a girl's school, by the way). But isn't that just life? If I didn't go to school I wouldn't see my friends every day. I probably wouldn't even have most of my friends because we all live in different villages in a rural area, and school is what brought us together in the first place. None of us is going crazy because of exams, and we are in our GCSE year. Most of my friends and I are doing 12 or 13 GCSEs, and we are getting mostly As. Yes, our school makes us work hard, but it's a good school, and we still do babysitting, or have weekend jobs, and still have plenty of time to do other things as well. I just got back from waitressing Sunday lunch at the pub in my village. This weekend I also did all my homework, and some of us slept over at our friend's house, and then we went to Sheep Fair yesterday. If I was being driven crazy with the pressure of my exams, would I have time for all of that? My friends and I also go to folk festivals, even though they are not folkies, because I have brought four different friends to folk festivals in the last two years and they love it. So we are not going into town at night and getting off our faces on alcopops or whatever you said. We are going to festivals and ceilidhs!

I also think what you have said about working mothers is rubbish. My mum works, and she is my best friend. She has made loads of sacrifices for me. We moved house so I could go to the school where I am now. Now she works from home, but even if she couldn't do that I would know how lucky I am because I can talk to her about anything. I have friends whose mums stay at home all day, and it doesn't mean they get on better. She is partly paying for me to go to Japan on exchange next year with my school because she thought it would be a good opportunity. Before you start telling me how spoilt I am, I have to earn 1/3 of the money myself. She could not give me these opportunities if she didn't work.

I am sorry if anybody feels so traumatised by school that they feel they can't stay there and I am sure home schooling is fine for those people. But please do not tar the rest of us as knife carrying psychos who are all on the point of mental breakdown, who have to spend every night getting drunk to blot out the pain, because our lives are just not like that. We are perfectly fine. But thanks so much for your concern. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: maeve
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:06 PM

Thanks for your post, Guest Daisybell. I am delighted to read your description of your life in England.

maeve

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:30 PM

Well, well, well....

Daisy...if you had read what I'd said, er....in a little more depth, you'd see that I'd said that for some children school is the best thing to have ever happened to them. Obviously, you are one of those childre, as are your friends.

You would also have read that I said I have, and always have had, the utmost respect for brilliant teachers who care deeply about their children.

OK?

I also said that the cases of cervical cancer, amongst younger girls is on the increase, and that this was due to many of them having sex at a younger and younger age.

Sorry, Daisy, but that's exactly what's going on, because I too have young people for children, as does your Mum, and I can assure you that not everyone is down at the local Sheep Fair picking daisies.

I'm really pleased you're all doing 13 GCSEs and getting A's too. 13 As is some accomplishment, especially when you're obviously not having to study too hard, having loads of time to party and go out.

I bow to you all in respect.

Sorry, but I'm still a little worried, to put it mildly, about the jab for Cervical Cancer being given en masse in our schools at the moment.

I'm also worried about the fact that GPs are aiding and abetting illegal acts by giving out contraception to under 16s without their parents knowledge, but I'm sure you can talk to your Mum about that one, as I'm sure she'll understand.

I did not say that ALL young girls are out there having sex with every Tom, Dick and Sebastien, but I can assure you that some are.

I can also assure you that there are many children out there who are suffering very badly at school and who are not as happy as you and your friends. I am on their side.....You need no-one to fight your corner as you are obviously loving every single moment of your school.

However, perhaps you could explain to me why the teachers themselves, last year, at the Annual Conference in Torquay, stated how worried they now are about so many young people, who are showing signs of much mental stress.

They called for a review of the amount of homework being given out, for SATS tests to be stopped (already stopped in Wales and Scotland I believe)...and for far less stress to be put on the children and the teachers also.

Obviously, you are the best school in England, Daisy, so I'd treasure it even more, if I were you.

Did I criticise working mothers? Don't think so......

I did say that many mothers have no choice BUT to go out to work...and I did say that many parents love to boast about how well 'Little Johnny' is doing, when in actual fact, Little Johnny is often falling apart inside under the weight of 27 GCSEs and 57 A Levels, but hey.....I'm sure you read that part with humour...

I've a friend who works in a nursery...OOPS, sorry...a 'pre-school learning alliance' as they call them now, or used to call them, probably sommat else by now....and at the end of each term they have to do a Report on each child, for the parents...

And who has asked for this to be done?

Why, the parents themselves.

Because that way....altogether now...they can say to one another how well 'Baby Johnny' is doing at his pre-school learning alliance, being able to make plasticine alphabet letters and paint 2+2 in day glo paint.

Once, toddlers were just left to play in the sandpit, play with the soft toys, natter on to each other, have their milk and biccies, sing some songs and generally have a real whale of a time! I know, because I used to help them all do it...and then...The Serious Ones took over, started to turn up to Playschools in suits, with briefcases, and Lesson Plans...

And the world got even weirder...................

Maybe you could do an A level in 'What Went Wrong' ?

I hope you get all your GCSEs, and I hope you get all As if that's what makes you happy, Daisy...but...I'd value you as just as much a Wonderful Person if you had no exams, but were kind, caring and loved life.

Life is not Exams.
You are not Exams.

Never let anyone judge you on Exams alone, because it is the person on the inside that counts far, far more than pieces of paper.

I'll show you how ridiculous it is...My daughter chose to take no exams, yet she is still able to get a job. She learnt because she loves learning, not because she had to take an exam at the end of it.

I am 54, and STILL I have to put down what examinations I took, on application forms. Why?   What the ***** does it matter what I did 35 years ago, for one hour in an examination room?

Until society can learn to let go of that, we ain't going far.


Good luck at school, though, Daisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:36 PM

From Walter Isaacson's biography of Einstein. He interviewed Einstein about his proble with math:

"One widely held belief about Einstein is that he failed math as a student, an assertion that is made, often accompanied by the phrase "as everyone knows," by scores of books and thousands of websites designed to reassure underachieving students. A Google search of Einstein failed math turns up more than 500,000 references. The allegation even made it into the famous "Ripley's Believe it or Not!" newspaper column.

Alas, Einstein's childhood offers history many savory ironies, but this is not one of them. In 1935, a rabbi in Princeton showed him a clipping of the Ripley's column with the headline "Greatest living mathematician failed in mathematics." Einstein laughed. "I never failed in mathematics," he replied, correctly. "Before I was fifteen I had mastered differential and integral calculus." In primary school, he was at the top of his class and "far above the school requirements" in math. By age 12, his sister recalled, "he already had a predilection for solving complicated problems in applied arithmetic," and he decided to see if he could jump ahead by learning geometry and algebra on his own. His parents bought him the textbooks in advance so that he could master them over summer vacation. Not only did he learn the proofs in the books, he also tackled the new theories by trying to prove them on his own. He even came up on his own with a way to prove the Pythagorean theory. "

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:47 PM

Ronald D. Davies is a mathematical genius too. (He wrote 'The Gift of Dyslexia' for those coming late to this thread) He got into terrible trouble at school over this because he ALWAYS knew the answer, in seconds, to the most complicated maths problem, but he couldn't explain how he worked it out.

He couldn't work it out, because he didn't know how he did it, or why his brain worked like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:47 PM

From the same biography:



Some researchers claim to detect in Einstein's childhood a mild manifestation of autism or Asperger's syndrome. Simon Baron-Cohen, the director of the autism research center at Cambridge University, is among those. He writes that autism is associated with a "particularly intense drive to systemize and an unusually low drive to empathize." He also notes that this pattern "explains the 'islets of ability' that people with autism display in subjects like math or music or drawing -- all skills that benefit from systemizing."* I do not find such a long-distance diagnosis to be convincing. Even as a teenager, Einstein made close friends, had passionate relationships, enjoyed collegial discussions, communicated well verbally and could empathize with friends and humanity in general.


Isaacson met, spoke with, interviewed Einstein, his friends and colleagues.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 02:02 PM

Well, yes...it's obvious to me that Einstein was on the Autism Circle...many geniuses are...

"Oh no, they're NOT!"

"Oh YES, they ARE!" :0)


If the 'scientists' decide to start removing the autistic gene...when they get the know how, they'll be removing themselves, to a certain extent...because I'd say that the vast majority of their minds are also on the Autism circle, as are musicians, dancers, songwriters, artists, poets..etc..etc.etc..

What a horrible, bland, beige and boring place this world would be without the rainbows shone down by The Autism Circle...

Yes, I know that often it carries with it deep depression and lack of self belief, but my goodness, what absolute shining stars so many autistic circle people are...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 02:08 PM

I have read some of Ron Davis' materials. My grand niece suffers from a severe form of autism and since the age of 2 has been receiving daily instruction from specialists both in her home and at school. Davis' successes have been with higher functioning autistics. He himself explains that his process for drawing out a child with autism is threefold:
Individuation
Identity Development
Social Integration

He states:

"If the person cannot experience some form of orientation, then the Facilitator will not continue to work with that person. Without becoming oriented, the individual cannot experience or develop a sense of "self" as distinct from their environment."

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 02:20 PM

not genralizing too much there lizzie, glad to know you have a handle on reality.

as for the kids having ore sex nowadays than they ever did, how about instaed of lessening sex edication give them more.

families that don't give a toss what their kids are up to, so they look for affection others ways.

the media and advertisers sexualising kids at an ever earlier age...
the playboy stuff for example, WTF were parents thinking buying their young girls the playboy duvet covers, do they not know that playboy is a lads mag?   what message is that sending to kids.

daisy,
i will not patronize you. you sound like you have a fantastic school and an even better mum.
you are very lucky, i am glad you are enjoying school. so sound very responsible. good luck with the germany trip and with everything you do in the future.

as for this jab, i am glad it has come at last, it won't make kids think they are anymore protected than before, it won't make them go out and have sex unless they feel ready to.


take care all

jade x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 02:36 PM

"as for the kids having ore sex nowadays than they ever did, how about instaed of lessening sex edication give them more."

Lordy! Saints Preserve Us, jade..! :0)

There ISN'T anymore that they can know...!!

Did you know that the wonderful Think Tank in Exeter University decided that a new way to avoid teenage pregnancies was for children to learn about Oral and Anal Sex. That way, they could lick, fidget with, fill each other's bums, satisfy their er...cravings...and NOT get pregnant! Yes! Isn't that wonderful!

And...the best part of it, is....it's TRUE! How do I know? I rang Exeter Uni up and spoke to the Department that had been telling this to children....The er....'professor' who'd come up with this highly questionable and decidely dodgy idea wasn't there at the time, but they assured me he wasn't a paedeophile, but someone who was very interested in ensuring that young girls didn't get pregnant...

So, there we have it! Let's go down to the parks and tell our children all about Anal and Oral Sex...Yup, we can sit on the benches with them and discuss it all in detail....even if they don't want to listen, because they'd rather be thinking about getting some bubblegum or a chocolate bar...(although quite what they'd be imagining DOING with it, I dread to think....

Now of course, if you or I actually did that, we'd be hoiked up by The Powers That Be and charged with Highly Dodgy Discussions with Young People, but the teachers are out there having these discussions every day...and believe you me, some of them are VERY unhappy about it.

"families that don't give a toss what their kids are up to, so they look for affection others ways."

Some families don't, that's very, very true...and...unlike Daisy (and the 13 GCSEs) I realise, of course, that you're generalising there....

"the media and advertisers sexualising kids at an ever earlier age...
the playboy stuff for example, WTF were parents thinking buying their young girls the playboy duvet covers, do they not know that playboy is a lads mag?   what message is that sending to kids."

Couldn't agree more, jade. Been there, done that, had the Booby Bratz Dolls (Paedeophiles R Us) conversations with Woolworths Managers and the 'Paedophilia Girls Range' conversatoins with NEXT.
The head buyer in NEXT actually ended up in tears, not because I was raging at her, but because she was now the oldest 'on the board' and the younger ones couldn't see ANYTHING wrong with the clothes they were wanting little girls to wear. She was a Mum, with two daughters, aged 7 and 9...and she'd seen them dancing at a party with their friends, in the most suggestive way. It had scared the shite out of her...

A whole generation (with, obviously, some exceptions, Daisy) who've been 'groomed'....

Worrying, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,Daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 02:51 PM

In all honesty, I didn't respond to this thread to be patronised, I simply wanted to state my point of view.

I know exactly what you're trying to imply, and just because I don't fufill your idea of a chavvy teenage mum having unprotected, underage sex round the back of the bike sheds because school and society has, in some way, 'poisoned' me and made me unable to think for myself, it means I'm some kind of privately educated toff that is completely ignorant to what goes on in 'reality', simply because I'm from a rural area and I'm taking 13 GCSES. It's not uncommon for students that go to decent schools to take that many exams, which I would have thought you'd know seeing as you're so enlightened in this area.

I go to a state school, and I'm still encouraged to try my best by most of my teachers, as are my friends, and even though some of them I'm not exactly chummy with, I don't feel like I'm "bullied" and neither are my classmates. Me and my friends aren't in the minority because we're not on the brink of suicide and carring knives in our g-strings. To put it frankly, I don't understand why you think you'd know better than I do, when I am actually a student, about what goes on in terms of sex, violence and exam pressure in my own school. In some schools, it is pretty bad and there is teenage pregnancy and knife crime, and I acknowledge that I'm lucky that my school isn't like that, however, the majority of schools aren't. Even when these things do happen, this is usually because of the individual and their circumstances, it's not a symptom of modern day culture it doesn't affect every school.

I don't know whether you expect me to apologise because I try hard and I'm not out every night shagging myself into oblivion. I do go out and have a good time, and I also work hard, and it's not that uncommon. As for cervical cancer, girls that weren't sexually active before recieving the cervical cancer jab probably aren't now going to go out intent on having sex as much as possible. If girls weren't having sex before they got the jab, I seriously doubt it was the jab that was holding them back- most 12-13 year old girls were probably quite ignorant as to the dangers of cervical cancer before the jab was offered- I know alot of people in my year were, and we're in year 11. Cheers!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:04 PM

lizzie, sorry for the atrotious spelling.

actually i am all for teaching kids about every aspect of sexual behaviour. that way when some lad wants them to do something, if they decide they do or don't want to, they are much more aware of what is involved.
sex on its own should not be demonized however, it is important that they get the facts and understand the emotional responsablities. by keeping things secret, you are actually making it more exciting.

when younger sister was very young, she asked what a picture of a nipple piercing was, mum passed the buck, edi passed the buck, as soon as i told her it was a picture of a booby, she was happy, said ok and moved on to something completely different and didn't think or ask about it anymore.



i was genralizing about modern families, i know alot of the kids still have parents who devote themselves to raising their children, good on them, there are some however, that see kids as just another thing to tick off their list, but don't want them to change their lives in any way.

i think it may be the kids of these sorts of parents who think having kids is easy.
in order to combat this why do we not have those robot babies in schools? look after one of those for a week and see if you still want one.

sorry i know this is way off the thread title.

i cannot comment on home education as i went to school, i cannot say it was the most wonderful experiance ever, but i did make some wonderful friends, without school i probably would have been very lonely.

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:10 PM

daisybell, i am sorry if you thought i was patronizing you, that was not my intention.

of course you know your life better than anyone.
i hope no one was trying to say you were lying or exagerating in any way! i certainly wasn't.

i appreciate your comments here, as i don't have kids or socialise with anyone who does, i have to say that on a day to day basis, i have no idea whats going on for teenagers.

my conclusions come from watching programmes like the jeremy kyle show, whick i acknowledge is a misrepresentaion of teenege mums.

j x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:13 PM

I didn't mean you at all! I meant Lizzie. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:18 PM

"Me and my friends aren't in the minority because we're not on the brink of suicide and carring knives in our g-strings. "

Yikes! you're all wearing G strings?   Whatever happened to sensible navy blue knickers, 'Daisybell'...? :0)

"lizzie, sorry for the atrotious spelling."

jade, you never, EVER think that you need to apologise to me for spelling, grammar, whatever....I knew exactly what you meant.

The witch hunt that has followed me round for years focussed for so long on my grammar and spelling, trying so hard to undermine me, make me feel ignorant and stupid. They never achieved their aim. They did, however, make me fight harder for all of those who are similarly abused in this way...

I do Elizabethan spelling myself...as in I make it up as I go along sometimes, if I can't remember how to spell it.

I read that "Eats Shoots and Leaves' book...or at least, I started to, but I never got past the part where the author told us how she was more upset about the incorrect use of a word, in the reporting of 9/11 than she was about the actual incident itself.

I threw it away at that point....

If someone is more upset about grammar, than over that terrible day and the mountain of sadness it caused, still causes, to this day, then they have a hole in their soul...

You just write as you do, that's way good enough for me, jade...
xx

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:22 PM

Maybe it's my decent education that makes me understand irony. Unfortunately, we're not actually wearing G-strings.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:33 PM

Possibly 'daisybell', possibly.

I always think though, that the world would be a far better place if we returned to the days of cami-knickers...I had to draw out needlework plans for those, from the 1930s...for my Needlework teacher...I got so bored I threw them away....She was the deputy headmistress at the time and loathed me, as she had loathed my brother before me. She was an absolute old boot. I was left handed, so I sewed upside down and back to front, for her....

Of course,as far as I was concerned, SHE was the one who was doing it all arse over elbow, but..such is life in a right-handed world, where the teacher is always correct...and where, just like dyslexic folks, we have to learn 'their way' despite it screwing up our brains, making the messages go in the wrong direction...

Being left handed is pretty hard at times...

I think we should have a National Left Handed Day, where all right-handedness is banned.....

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:37 PM

I don't know why you keep putting my name in quotes. It's just my name.

And I'm also left handed! What a small world. It hasn't caused me that many needleword issues, but I'll get back to you if that occurs

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:38 PM

*needlework

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:40 PM

Did you know that the wonderful Think Tank in Exeter University decided that a new way to avoid teenage pregnancies was for children to learn about Oral and Anal Sex. That way, they could lick, fidget with, fill each other's bums, satisfy their er...cravings...and NOT get pregnant! Yes! Isn't that wonderful!

And...the best part of it, is....it's TRUE! How do I know? I rang Exeter Uni up and spoke to the Department that had been telling this to children....The er....'professor' who'd come up with this highly questionable and decidely dodgy idea wasn't there at the time, but they assured me he wasn't a paedeophile, but someone who was very interested in ensuring that young girls didn't get pregnant...

You know Lizzie it may surprise you to know I don't believe you.

The last time you posted a link it said the opposite of what you said it said.

Why would someone say to a total stranger "He isn't a paedophile" except in response to a question as to whether he was or not. So did you ask if he was?

They must have thought you were crackers!!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:44 PM

Ah well, that'll be your decent education 'Daisybell', you got all the good teachers.

I belong to a time when girls weren't allowed to wear coloured bras under their blouses and had to have the skirts measured to see how many inches they were above the knee...

I went to the worst school in my district, despite passing my 11 plus, because I was desperate to go to the same school as my brother. My brother had failed his 11 plus because...er....he was dyslexic, but no-one knew about it back then...you were just 'slow and dimwitted', according to some, which always puzzled me, as he was never that at all, still isn't.

That's what I mean, about the 13 GCSEs, which is lovely, don't get me wrong, but....my brother could never have coped with that, indeed, none of us ever did, because it was practically unheard of to take more than 8 in those days...if that....but Educayshon wasn't a Corporate Business back then...just a weird place where people measured your skirt lengths...

Coloured bras, eh...Yeesh, am I old or WHAT! I can remember when they first came out! Oh, B***er!   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:44 PM

It is, additionally, daisybell's "decent education", available at many state schools the length and breadth of the land, which enables her to write clearly and lucidly without any trace of sloppy orthographic or grammatical errors, about how life actually is for the majority of today's school students (and not to refer to them patronisingly as "kids"), as opposed to tracts copied and pasted from highly dubious publications and from the sensational gutter press.

Long may her G-strings prosper and her list of GCSEs lengthen.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:55 PM

Because my school is all girls, they still measure our skirts once a week and are strict about uniform, but it doesn't take any focus off getting good grades. Just because things aren't the same now as they were when you were my age, doesn't mean they're worse, they're just different, and in some places they're probably better. Please stop putting my name in quotes, it's annoying.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:00 PM

Lizzie you want everyone to respect your point of view and spurious rantings but the minute a teenager comes on you manage to sneer at them and patronise them.

The worst thing is - I suspect you don't even know you are doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:15 PM

The is a report upon which Lizzie probably based her last rant here

I will leave anyone who is really interested to see if the report says what Lizzie says it says.

But to save you the trouble - it doesn't. I suspect most of you knew that anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:37 PM

The American website "The Public School Parent's Network " carried an article under the heading

"Sex education that delays sexual activity"

This was about
'A new and more effective sex education programme called A PAUSE (Added Power and Understanding in Sex Education) takes a different approach. Based on extensive research at Exeter University's Department of Child Health, it doesn't just focus on the physical aspects of sex, but also addresses the emotional side. So far, around 100 schools have enrolled in this ground-breaking programme.'

It was an idea for peer-led sex education that initially came from similar successful programmes in the USA, where escalating teenage pregnancy rates forced sex education experts to change their approach.
The 'just say no' approach wasn't working on its own.

'A PAUSE takes young people through the biological, emotional and practical aspects of sexual health. Early in secondary school life, teachers and health professionals teach the basic principles of human development, contraception, pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections, illustrating issues with 'real life stories'. Pupils discuss how they would deal with certain situations and decide the best course of action.'

''Peers educators' (16- to 18-year olds) undergo a 25-hour training programme, which enables them to run four classroom sessions with Year Nine students. The sessions focus on dispelling myths about sex and building self-esteem, and although a teacher or A PAUSE supervisor must be present, the peers lead the discussions without intervention.

Dr John Tripp, a consultant paediatrician who is a member of the team behind the A PAUSE programme, says that teenagers should not be pressurised into having sex. They may find it difficult to say 'no' without help. He says: 'Young people should not feel pressured, and should be prepared to deal with the dangers and manage them safely.'

A typical programme may include exploring the reasons why teenagers start having sex, examining media and peer pressure, performing role play and learning assertiveness techniques.'
         
                -------------------------------

The programme became the subject of great debate across the spectrum of the press.

"After reading about the project, Vanessa Feltz wrote in the Sunday Express: "The words 'batty' and 'harebrained' would spring to mind - if the words 'irresponsible' and 'dangerous' hadn't sprung first." The programme was criticised for the training it offers teachers, in which they are asked to consider how they would answer questions about anal sex, oral sex and, most controversially, the question: "What does semen taste like?"

John Rees, director of A Pause at Exeter University, says the furore came after only the second complaint made by a teacher in the 12 years the programme has been running. A Pause is also the only sex education programme in Europe that has been proven to work. Research into how it altered young people's behaviour was published in the British Medical Journal in 1995. It showed a 5% overall reduction in underage sex - that's 13% of those who would have actually had sex.

Rees says: "Young people can ask very challenging questions; we need to be prepared to respond properly. We discuss kissing, but of course we don't teach children how to do it. The same with anal or oral sex. We have to accept that they will ask questions that challenge our own values, and be prepared to answer questions within the framework of the programme by giving them a factually appropriate answer."

He adds wryly: "So with a question such as 'What does semen taste like?', we would advise them to refuse to answer it from a personal point of view. 'I don't know, I'll go away and find out for next week', would not be an appropriate response."

Simon Blake, of the National Children's Bureau and former head of the Sex Education Forum, is frustrated that such debates are still going on. "The question that we should be asking is, given that we are three years in from the teenage pregnancy strategy, what do we need to do next? This question of whether we should teach it has gone on too long; the big question is why are there still 16-year-olds who don't know anything about sex apart from how to spell 'fallopian tubes'?"

But there is much to celebrate. Figures released last week show that teenage pregnancy rates in England - famously the worst in Europe - have fallen for the third year in a row. There were 9% fewer teenage pregnancies in 2001 compared with 1998. In other words, a total of 8,000 pregnancies in girls under 18 have been prevented.

Many agencies, including the Family Planning Association, have welcomed the government's strategy, which is delivered via local authorities through schemes such as A Pause. So why is there still so much controversy over sex education? Blake says: "The issue is that sex education always frightens people, and raises anxieties about how and what to deliver. Mostly, the question for teachers is how parents and community will respond. The real thing we need to be concerned with is saying that sex education is OK."

Angela Phillips, who sits on the independent advisory committee of the teenage pregnancy unit, which runs the strategy, says: "Teachers need proper training to deliver sex education. Not everybody can handle it. But anybody who's doing sex education in school will be faced with questions that are deliberately intended to provoke. One of the ways pupils respond to embarrassment is to try to raise a laugh. As teachers you've got to be able to deal with it."

But Phillips argues that responsibility for the way we talk about sex is not just with the teachers, but society as a whole. "The problem with sex education is a collective embarrassment about sex. Kids are up against the overwhelming feeling that sex is naughty and probably nasty - that's the atmosphere in which young people are brought up to think about sex. You've got to be able to deal with it calmly, in a dignified and non-sniggering way."

And while the criticisms about A Pause make good headlines, Blake says they undermine the good and effective work that the government, schools and children are doing. "We know that if you politicise something it just makes people anxious. We've got to stop politicising sex education. It's not helpful for children and it's not helpful for those delivering it."

from   
The Guardian, Tuesday 4 March 2003

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:42 PM

Nope, that wasn't the report, actually.

The report was in the Daily Mail...(Boomf Boomf Boomf, as they all tumble down like Matchstick Men in shocked, outraged horror at the very mention of that name!)

I was kinda stunned and thought..."Aha, here goes The Mail again!" as I've heard such bad things about it on Mudcat...so I thought I'd ring up Exeter Uni, as they'd put that in the report, to find out if it was true or not...it was.

Ring them up, Dave, if you don't believe I did it...ring them up. You have my full permission.

Then you can put it in your 'Things Lizzie Says' book where you can cross reference every word I've ever put down...



"Long may her G-strings prosper and her list of GCSEs lengthen."

If you get your G string caught in your GCSEs, could it be a problem, Sweetum? Where've you been? I haven't seen you for a while. I expect you've been yattering Above Stars, as opposed to Below...

Can G strings lengthen also?   (bemused smiley)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:46 PM

Thanks for that Emma. I can see that the man at the centre of this is a consultant paediatrician.

I wonder if that's why Lizzie asked if he was a paediophile!!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:47 PM

Has anyone noticed that the more 'sex education' the kids are given, the more teenage pregnancies we have?

Hmmmmmmmmm......


We had 30 minutes of Mrs. Smallworth squirming, as she sat on her desk, telling us The Facts of Life....whilst we looked at one another in disbelief....and afterwards we mumbled "Surely our parents don't do ***that***" :0)

Girls were told on their own, as were the boys, who had a male teacher tell them 'their side'.....

We didn't discuss our side with the lads, and they didn't discuss their side with us.

And in the worst school in the neighbourhood, which is where I went, not one of my friends, or any other classmates in the whole of my year became pregnant. It was very rare in those days...

Of course, I am going back to 1356, but........

So, the 'scientific' ones might assume that the less you tell children, the more they are able to live their lives as er...children...

But, what do I know?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:50 PM

well found emma!!!

in folkie terms sex is not such a big issue, most of the songs we like and sing involve sex or murder, both is better!!

having said that to some non folkie friends recently, they got rather embarrassed.

it is the same as discussing medical conditions, it is biology, pure and simple. emotions are much harder to disscuss, without making someone feel bad because they don't feel a certain way.

take care all

jade x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:54 PM

Yeah, but.....what happened to LOVE, jade?

Sexsexsexsexsexsexsexsex......

It is nothing more, to many these days, than a biological function...

Once, it was so much more....

And another Ripple of Preciousness floats out 'lost' into the Pond of Life

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:59 PM

From my post....

'Based on extensive research at Exeter University's Department of Child Health, it doesn't just focus on the physical aspects of sex, but also addresses the emotional side.'

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:04 PM

"lizziecornish" asks where have I been, having failed to notice that I contributed to this thread two days ago. I repeat the post so that she might peruse, if not understand it, although the latter is doubtful:

From: The Borchester Echo - PM
Date: 02 Oct 09 - 11:26 AM

There are two musicians I know who are both Cambridge graduates and who were also diagnosed as dyslexic when small children. They considered this not a "gift" but a blasted nuisance. Each, however, received appropriate remedial tuition and are now where they are, playing in top bands.

I know another with Asberger's Syndrome who refuses all therapy or treatment. He's a total pain in the arse, as is anyone else with this condition, and is unable to play in bands with others.

None of which has anything whatsoever to do with "home education" (cranky or not) but it certainly exposes how preposterous it is to regard someone with a learning difficulty as somehow "special". Appropriate intervention by skilled experts can and does get round or overcome such problems and enables a more or less "normal" life (whatever that is).

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:06 PM

"I wonder if that's why Lizzie asked if he was a paediophile!!"

Nope...I asked because I'm really kinda weirdly worried about folks who want to talk to 13 year olds about oral and anal sex.....

But again, what do I know, I'm just an old fashioned gal.....

By the way, do you think that paedeophiles aren't in the medical profession, Dave? They are *everywhere*, especially where the children are.

As I said before, the headmaster of a school in North Devon was sent to prison for that very thing. There is no National Curriculum for sex education, it is left to the individual head teachers...unless, of course, they've changed the goalposts..

Oh look, here we are.....Let's all head for Scotland!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:07 PM

Oh yes, Sweetums, I saw that post...I just meant "where have you been?" in general...not seen a lot of you for a while..that's all...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:10 PM

That is not entirely accidental, nor a matter of regret to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:11 PM

The thing is, Emma...we were only taught about love....sex was part of love..the two went together.

I dunno....it just seems to me that rampant sex hasn't brought a great deal of happiness (now, boys, calm down) ;0)

Schools have been obsessed with it, the whole medical profession has become obsessed by it!

WHAT do they think used to happen, in Days of Yore when people weren't told anything at all? Strangely, the human race still survived, got on with things, worked it all out...

Has Sex become the new Black?
Is Love now so old fashioned that no-one wants to wear it any longer?

Who knows, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:11 PM

It's probably this one Lizzie is referring to.

It still doesn't say what you said it said.

But it is an interesting argument you pose Lizzie.

I refer you back to my earlier post where I pointed out the difficulties of persuading parents that some changes in education can be for the better.

Here we have a course of study that demonstrably reduces the amount of pregnancy in young girls. Now I would have thought (from what you have said earlier in this thread) you would be in favour of that.   

But apparently you are against it.

I did try and forewarn you not to believe everything you read in the papers. See what happens!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:12 PM

No, the more I think about it, the more we need to bring the Cami Knickers back...preferably Navy Blue ones...in that thick material..

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:14 PM

i know i spoke of emotions only for the last sentance, but i think love is still the most important thing for most people still.

quite a few years ago we were living in a hostel, one of the girls there had at least two abortions. this has nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of abortion, but it amazed me that after having one she wasn't more careful!

she was not the only one i have known to do that either.

so the question being which would you prefer, good sex education, or getting into a situation that could damage not only your mental health, but your body as well?

TCA
jade x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:16 PM

Nah, Dave....I'm afraid I don't believe those figures about pregnancy.

Of course, the entire Benefits System is geared up to encourage early pregnancy anyway...

"WHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOSH!" is heard across the nation, as they all reach for Google to look up 'Benefits and Pregnancy' to prove the Witch wrong, yet again, and hang her out to dry...

You lot do make me laugh at times...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:16 PM

Lizzie I take it from this:

Nope...I asked... [ a consultant paediatrician if he was a paedophile].... because I'm really kinda weirdly worried about folks who want to talk to 13 year olds about oral and anal sex.....

No wonder they told you he wasn't in!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:22 PM

jade, young people have been having 'sex' education for yonks now...and it's not making any difference, well it is.....but it's not a good difference..

In fact, we've got a nation of kids (generalising 'Daisybell', generalising) who are driving other nations up the wall when they visit on holiday and 'the british' are found to be having sex up against their church walls...

I mean?????????

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:22 PM

Nah, Dave....I'm afraid I don't believe those figures about pregnancy.

Of course, the entire Benefits System is geared up to encourage early pregnancy anyway...

Of course you didn't Lizzie.

Of course it is Lizzie.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:22 PM

At any of the schools I've been to, I've never experienced this extreme sex education; about five years ago when we had our first sex education lessons, they were really biological and didn't explain that much in detail. I think it's ridiculous to suggest that before sex education, there was no underage sex or pregnancy. Sex education isn't teaching people how to have sex, it's teaching them what sex is and how to be safe. If an individual decides to have sex underage, wouldn't you rather they were safe and knew the consequences rather than getting pregnant and not knowing anything about contraception?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:24 PM

'I asked because I'm really kinda weirdly worried about folks who want to talk to 13 year olds about oral and anal sex.....'

The programme was designed to REPLY to young peoples questions about such issues.
However much we may be concerned about and deplore the early sexualization of children through the media etc it is nevertheless a 'fact of modern life' and I believe honest informed disucussion of such things is better than playground sniggering and misinformation.


BTW a recent small rise in conceptions rates per 1,000 girls aged 12 to 15 7.8 in 2006 to 8.1 in 2007 followed a 5 year fall

Earlier this year A spokesperson for the YWCA said:
"There has been an increase in the number of teenage conceptions in the last year but we feel that this is just a blip in the overall downward trend. We don't feel that there should be any concern that teen pregnancies are on the increase again."

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:25 PM

"No wonder they told you he wasn't in!!!!! "

Sigh........

Yeah, well I wasn't truly expecting him to be...although I did ask for him by name first, actually, smart arse, but I did get to speak to one of the ladies in his department..

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:27 PM

I never said he failed mathematics. However, his sister said that he wasn't good at the easy part of mathematics. For those who missed it the first time, here it is again...

"(Albert) never was much good at the 'easy' part of mathematics. To shine, he had to move on to the 'hard' part.' In adult life his mathematical intuition was recognised as extraordinary and he could handle deftly the most difficult of tensor calculus, but it appears that arithmetic calculation continued to be an area of comparative weakness." ~ Maja Einstein"


For those who apparently don't really know anything at all about people who are gifted/LD, or how such people are classified by and handle by the schools, and who have also apparently not bothered to read the links I provided on the subject, it is not necessary for a student to fail at a particular subject for them to be considered learning disabled if they are also gifted. All that is necessary is for there to be a marked discrepancy between their abilities in the area of their giftedness and any other area. For Einstein to have been as incredibly advanced as he was in certain aspects of mathematics, but to be considered "weak" in simple mathematics would qualify him as gifted/LD in the public schools today. That is how my son was assessed. Had he not been as advanced in some areas as he was, his deficiencies wouldn't have been considered great enough to qualify him for special education services. It was the discrepancy between his giftedness and other areas that qualified him for special education services.

That's just the way it works, folks. Too bad if some people don't like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:28 PM

"I think it's ridiculous to suggest that before sex education, there was no underage sex or pregnancy."

I didn't say that 'Daisybell'.....what I said was that in my day, with barely any sex education, pregnancy amongst my friends and peers was extremely rare.

There have always been youngsters who've had sex earlier than others, there always will be. You can't stop nature, but.....to saturate children and young people in sex, bodily functions, body parts..etc.etc..from primary school upwards is kinda wobbly weird, in my book....

But then, I read a different book to the many here...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:32 PM

I should point out that one of the reasons it is set up that way is because giftedness often masks the learning disabilities and makes them harder to detect in people who are gifted. But having such a large discrepancy is considered a telltale sign. And also, if someone is gifted, with no learning disabilities, there would not be such a discrepancy.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:36 PM

Yeah, well I wasn't truly expecting him to be...although I did ask for him by name first, actually, smart arse, but I did get to speak to one of the ladies in his department..

This gets funnier and funnier. Keep going Lizzie - I am thinking of publishing it somewhere.

You telephoned a consultant paediatrician at his place of work to ask him if he was a paedophile, not expecting him to answer. So you asked one of his staff instead.

Well at least they didn't patronise you.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:38 PM

None of my friends, or anyone I know of in my school, is pregnant, despite having minimal sex education. Plus it's mainly the media that can encourage people my age to have sex, not sex education. Why would what's practically a biology lesson make people feel like it was okay to have sex?
I'd really appreciate it if you stopped putting my name in quotation marks, I've asked you several times and it's rude.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:48 PM

Minimal sex education?

Yeesh, 'daisybell', my daughter had tons of it, at both secondary schools she attended....primary too. Seems your school is maybe a little behind the times, but....minimal is good, and maybe that's the reason why your friends and peers are as they are.

It's very good to hear.

Daisy, I'm a little puzzled....what exactly brought you to Mudcat? You've not posted ever before, seem to have made your way down to the BS section immediately, when Mudcat's known for its music more than anything else...

Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm real pleased to see you here, but...I'm just kinda puzzled as to how you got to be here and why you've not ventured into other threads...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:59 PM

I answered because my mum is a mudcat member, which is why earlier I mentioned going to folk festivals, and she told me about this thread a couple of days ago. She showed me some of the things you'd written and the generalisations you were making about people my age and schools like mine (I'm not just talking about one school either, I've attended two primary schools and two secondary schools, all of which were state schools) made me angry and I wanted to respond. I haven't ventured into other threads because this is the only one I'm really interested in. Is that okay 'Lizzie'? I'm going to bed now anyway, have a lovely evening!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:59 PM

"You telephoned a consultant paediatrician at his place of work to ask him if he was a paedophile, not expecting him to answer. So you asked one of his staff instead."

Er....I used to work for Consultants, for your information, (although I'm sure that's listed in your 'Things Lizzie's Said' Book, so I know they don't answer the phone...

Dave, have you seriously sat yourself down and asked yourself why you're so obsessed with me?   I mean there are loads of other people on this thread, but time and again..er.............

Tell you what, you go down to the park, and talk to 13/14 year olds about anal and oral sex, and when the nice policeman comes to take you away, you can just tell him that you were trying to get the kids to see 'there's another way of doing things' and see what happens...

Here you go.... Corporate Sex Education Industry kits...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 06:10 PM

Teachers, talking about teaching very young chldren about sex..


We had no sex education in primary school at all...

"All children are developing at a much faster rate...we are in a changing world.....our children are different"

I wonder why................


Once the adults protected the children, allowing them to have a childhood. Now, the New Way, is to put all the information on to the children, let them deal with it, and wash their hands of any further responsibility. IMO, that's crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 07:25 PM

Dave, have you seriously sat yourself down and asked yourself why you're so obsessed with me?

Actually no Lizzie I haven't stopped and asked myself because I'm not.

I have interacted with others in this thread and a list of my what I have written shows I normally have a wide variety of postings.

I do get involved in threads with you because you do write unsubstantiated horlicks so often and like others on this thread when people write unsubstantiated horlicks I feel it needs to be challenged or substantiated.

As as example you wrote about the young people getting cervical cancer vaccines. I haven't made a full check - but as far as I can see no-one has agreed with you, including someone who is currently at school and discussing this with her parents and her peer group. What you wrote was complete and utter tosh,

You referred to a university and its think tank. What you said about it was palpable nonsense but since you have a cavalier regard for facts that is not unusual.

I happen to have respect for truth and facts. You can have as much disregard as you like for the truth, but while ever you post nonsense expect me to disagree with you.

And let me get this absolutely right, you rang someone who you thought was a pedophile but was in fact a pediatrician you knew wouldn't answer the phone to you?

Truly remarkable!!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 07:59 PM

Daisybell wrote:
I haven't ventured into other threads because this is the only one I'm really interested in.

If you do get interested in other threads, some of us would appreciate it. If you can put this much effort into helping shovel an immense steaming pile of dogshit, you've got a lot to contribute.

Welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 08:01 PM

Lizzie, protecting people from disease can never be a bad thing. Providing potentially life-saving information can never be a bad thing. There has always been teenage sexual activity and pregnancy, and I doubt if it's actually increasing. Instilling a sense of informed responsibility in young people is the best thing society can do, in my opinion, and that seems to be what they are trying to do with sex education.

Daisybell, thanks for the blast of reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:24 PM

I do not understand how Lizzie taught her children to be caring and respectful when she can not find it in her heart to be either to a child/young adult who come on Mudcat to join this discussion.

Read your attacks on a fellow Mudcatter's daughter and then tell me you don't understand why you have been hounded in what you call a witch hunt. You misspelled it, Ms Cornish or Route or whatever. Or should I say "Cornish" or "Route". You really should be ashamed of yourself.


This certainly confuses me:
"The thing is, Emma...we were only taught about love....sex was part of love..the two went together."
I thought you were taught nothing of use in school? Or did someone see to it that you had Sex Ed in fear that might decide to reproduce?

Welcome Daisybell. I can see where you might expect your post to have some value - someone who is actually excelling in school. I suspect you and your friends are in the majority. Unfortunately, here on Mudcat, the ones who squeal the loudest and longest think they have proven their point when the rest of us walk away shaking our heads in disbelief and pity.

"See I'm right and you're wrong!
Auntie Em, Auntie Em! I'll give you Auntie Em...and your little dog too!"

DaisyBell - PM me if you would like to discuss school or anything else. Maeve is a voice of reason. Katlaughing, Jacqui, Janie, Dani (who has two college age daughters). All good people.Or continue the good fight here. Do what you need to.
Auntie SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:36 PM

I hope a certain Mudcat member chooses to post here. A daughter, aged about 9, asked "What is a blow job?" Mudcat member had sworn to the children that they could ask anything and never be told a lie. A carefully and accurately worded explanation was given. Child was satisfied and somewhat horrified. "Gross" if I remember correctly. Children only ask what they are ready to hear or what they have heard at school. Open, honest discussion is only fair.

I had similar talks with my son. Sometimes a little awkward for both of us but he asked what he needed to know and I gave him the information I thought was appropriate. I kept in mind that my first introduction to sex was a friend's explanation, straight from her mother, that when a woman wants a baby, she and her husband go to the hospital. He pees in her and that makes a baby. End of story.
Gross!

That girl had two illegitimate pregnancies. Too much information or misleading information? Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:41 PM

Like it or not the real issue right now is AIDS. To my knowledge oral or anal sex will not prevent it. I had this discussion with my son although his response was that he would never get involved with someone who might have AIDS. A difficult subject. Even marriage doesn't guarantee protection if your mate strays,

So is sex education included in home schooling?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 11:05 PM

exaclty right SINS, the only way is total honesty. that way no matter what happens they know they can always come to you.

i am also with you on lizzies responses to daisybell.
it takes courage to satnd up to you lot and fight your corner.

lizzie, you may not like what she has to say but don't kick her down because of it, she is to be appluaded for her common sense and independant thought.

take care all, sweet dreams

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Peace
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 11:27 PM

The reason sex ed ended up in schools in the first place is that the subject was not being handled too well by parents.

A buddy of mine--tongue in cheek--once said (after the delivery of their fourth child): "As soon as I find out what's causing that, it's gonna stop."

I think that school education works for some and not others. The problem with home education is that an approved curriculum is not always followed. Sometimes the child is left with the TV. Education is not something we're given. It's something we take.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:18 AM

People who are too lazy to actually teach their kids don't home school. If they're that lazy, they would much rather dump them off at the school to get them out of their hair for six to eight hours a day.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Peace
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:30 AM

I've known a few who did it to get their hands on the money.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:50 AM

What money?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Peace
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:00 AM

This may not hold true in the US, but in Alberta (I don't know the exact figures anymore, but the ones I'll use aren't off by much).

Each child gets a basic grant from the department of education. It goes to the school division. It is about $4500 per child (if there are no special needs difficulties--more if there are). However, a 'certified teacher' is required by law to 'run' each child's program. If a parent decides to home school, the parent will receive half ($2250) and the school will receive $2250 with the stipulation that the school ensure the curriculum is being followed, etc. MANY school divisions do not do an adequate job of that, and some parents (I'm thinking religious home ed. here as one example) buy courses--or not--and 'educate' their children. I know the system has been played around with on more than a single occasion although I won't go into details on this thread. (I'd be happy to message you about the examples I know of.) Lotsa room for improvement anyway.

That said, I know of home-schooled students who have been exemplary and gone on to be very successful in college, trades or university.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:16 AM

That's very interesting. I've never heard of home schooling parents receiving money in the US. That certainly wasn't how it was done in the area where I was home schooling.

I don't know if I would want to do it that way, myself. I wasn't happy with the way the local school system was handling my son when he was in school. I don't know if I would want them to be in charge of how I schooled him at home. In fact, it's almost a certainty that I wouldn't.

But I guess I don't understand why parents would go to the trouble of keeping their kids at home all of the time just so they could get a couple thousand dollars per year. That's not much money for the added hassle if they didn't do it out of concern for their kids' education.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:46 AM

And 'Daisybell' is.........?

Sorry, Mary...but I've been 'set up' wayyyyyyy too many times.....

Take a look at Joan Crump's commetts in the link on the thread about attacks on fellow Mudcatters, and THEN perhaps think about re-directing your comments above.

And 'Daisybell' is?????????

Who knows, huh.

I take it though that as 'Daisybell' has said she's at an all girl's school, then she's either at a Girl's Grammar School, or a Private girl's school, because I don't think we have Girls only school in the State system, do we?

So....we have the daughter of a Mudcatter at a private/grammar school, which goes against *everything* that most of the English folkies believe in, in fact, they abhor it.

Tell you what Mary, if I was sitting here telling them that my daughter was at a grammar/private school all Socialist Hell would break loose over me, but....strangely, not one of them has even mentioned this amazing fact.

Weird, huh?

Now, if, of course, 'Daisybell' is really who she says she is, then of course she is welcome here, but I hope she realises that private education is somewhat different to the state run one....life is a lot more privleged and somewhat laid back, because certainly, in Sidmouth's private school, St. John's, the older children are taught to take CARE of the younger ones, staying beside them as 'friends' for a long time...as opposed to Tavistock College, where the older ones stood at the top of the stairwell pouring boiling hot drinks down on the younger ones coming up the stairs...

So yes, Daisy seems to go to a wonderful school, where there is no stress, and taking 13 exams at once is so easy peasy that everyone is getting A's AND having the most wonderful social life too...which is a marvellous example of how well school can actually work well if the teachers work to protect the children from stress.....although quite how you can study for 13 exams at once and barely have to worry about working, is a bit of a mystery to me, but then....maybe, with my brain, I've not been blessed in the same way.

'Daisybell' is a very lucky girl...but I'm sure she appreciates this.

I look forward to her joining Mudcat and coming to many of the other threads and I hope she'll find loads of exciting information here about the folk world.

There ya go, Mary.

Oh...and I've taught my children to always question things, too.



Glad to hear you're not obsessed with me, Dave. I was getting just the teensiest bit worried there.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:49 AM

Bruce, home educators over here receive not a single penny. Their children are not even allowed to sit exams for free, which they are trying to get changed.

Basically, you get absolutely zilch, not a book, not anything...

We were, at least, blessed with our EWO officer, who gave my kids a wealth of gold in his inspirational words about them.

He actually *liked* them....I mean really liked them, and that made such a difference to them both.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 03:51 AM

LC: "I take it though that as 'Daisybell' has said she's at an all girl's school, then she's either at a Girl's Grammar School, or a Private girl's school, because I don't think we have Girls only school in the State system, do we?"

I think Daisybell specifically stated that she attends a single sex *State School* and not a Private School.

There are still state supported faith schools - which are also most likely to be single sex. My Mother went to an all girls Catholic school.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 03:58 AM

Aha, CS...that's what it must be then, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:05 AM

"Their children are not even allowed to sit exams for free, which they are trying to get changed."

Just to clarify...

'They' being the Home Educators, not those within Educayshun Sistum, who'd rather deny a child the right to exams, should he/she want to take any, to prove a point.

Be nice if they bent over backwards to help, but er........
Ho hum...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:12 AM

"Daisy seems to go to a wonderful school, where there is no stress, and taking 13 exams at once is so easy peasy that everyone is getting A's AND having the most wonderful social life too...which is a marvellous example of how well school can actually work well if the teachers work to protect the children from stress.....although quite how you can study for 13 exams at once and barely have to worry about working, is a bit of a mystery to me, but then....maybe, with my brain, I've not been blessed in the same way."

Lizzie, I'm twenty years older than Daisybell, and I went to a State school too (albeit a mixed one). But the picture she paints is actually pretty much identical to the one I recall amongst my own peer group.

The less bright kids didn't do so well, and the bright ones did very well. Those who did do well very often had Saterday jobs and went out to see bands at the weekend!! But they were also disciplined about studying and *importantly* had home lives that were academically encouraging and supportive. My best friend at this same State School won some national award (beating all the kids from private schools in the country) for being a smarty pants and doing so well! She happened to be one of the most socially well adjusted and fun loving people I've known. But she just got on with her studies when she had to, her parents instilled a supportive study and work ethic in her.

Perhaps Daisybell isn't stressed about (actually no-doubt studying quite hard) because her home life is *supportive* of her schooling?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:20 AM

To clarify, I think many kids are indeed let down by the system. Unfortunately the system *also* inherits problems created by parents in the first place.

IMO parents have a very important role in ensuring their children get the best out of that system as possible. Both in terms of how they raise that child in the first place, and then their subsequent involvement in their child's schooling.
I think there are too many parents (especially working class parents unfortunately) who dump their kids at the school gate, and expect to put in exactly Zero personal effort or investment in terms of supporting their child's schooling.

Parental support or indeed absence of support (or even worse), is a significant part of the equation where a child's schooling is concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:59 AM

Point of clarification. In Manchester there is still at least one secular, all girls, non-selective secondary school. I imagine Manchester is not alone in this.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:00 AM

Lizzie, Daisybell has stated that she goes to a single sex state school. Now I believe her and as far as I can see so does everyone else who has posted here.

It sounds very similar to the school that both my daughters went to. They each did twelve GCSEs and went onto A levels and then University.   It was mixed is the only difference

There are plenty of grammar schools around some retain the title some don't. There are a number of state single sex schools. I am surprised that as an expert on education you didn't know that.

I know Dasiybell goes to one. How? Because she said so and I believe her. If you had spent anytime reading the written work of young people you would recognise it as convincing and truthful.

You must have had some really weird experiences down there in the South West to write what you do. And get your knowledge indiscriminately from from the Daily Mail and the internet with little understanding or critical analysis. Let me rephrase that. No understanding or critical analysis.

You know the EWO liking your children is not unusual, Despite what you say, most teachers are like that too. It's impossible to be involved with students or teaching and not like them. Teaching is a tough job, and the main reason why people do it is the look of pleasure on a young person's face when they have achieved something. The vast bulk of my teaching was with older students on Access courses, As a matter of interest was one - so I knew what difficulties they faced. Seeing them come out of the degree ceremony, having started with no qualifications whatsoever - well at that point I would have worked for nothing.

Most teachers will have a story of ex-students for whom education has made a real difference. Mine is usually the quadriplegic student who is completing his M.A.

Just think for a minute. He cannot speak, write, or walk He can't feed himself, dress himself or do any bodily function without assistance. Whilst he was studying at the Sheffield College he was a constant inspiration to the rest of the students. I wished we had had a dozen of him.

And having got a 2:1 at University he has gone on to do an MA. I don't see that as a tribute to his teachers or his support staff, parents and all the others who helped him - though he might. But I do see it as a tribute to him.

So don't slag off the teaching profession as a whole, don't slag off the education system and don't question young people's motivations.

Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:12 AM

I have never slagged off the teaching profession 'as a whole' Dave...and damn well you know that too, as you take apart every single sentence of mine.

In this thread alone, you will find numerous times that I have said I have the greatest respect for brilliant teachers who love their children and have their best interests at heart, so PLEASE do not try and stir things by saying what you have above, as it's completely untrue.

If 'Daisybell' is who she says she is, then all well and good to her, and as I've said earlier, I hope that she remains in Mudcat and enjoys many of the threads on here...

Not sure why parents go for single sex schools anymore....to be honest, as it's not a single sex world out there...and Dave, in all honesty, hypocrisy aside...if *I* had sent my kids to single sex schools, you...and all who sail in you, would be slagging me off for choosing some kind of 'selective' education...

I'm very pleased that your daughters managed to get 24 GCSEs between them. Just think, in 30 years time, they can still put that down on Job Application forms and wow folks.

I have no trouble with kids WANTING to learn or take thousands of exams, IF THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT TO DO.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:15 AM

Lizzie, I took the trouble to look up the numbers of pupils in single sex girls schools.

There are approximately 140,000 girls in single-sex state schools.

Now why didn't you do that before suggesting they didn't exist.

You might care to note - pupils especially girls tend to get better results in single sex schools - but parents tend to prefer mixed schools. That's why the numbers have dropped from 2,500 single sex schools to the current figure.

See Lizzie, despite all the evidence, parents know best.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:16 AM

And please note, that I have not slagged you off, or questioned your reasons for sending YOUR children to single sex schools, as I understand and believe that parents MUST have the right to educate their children as they see fit...be that state schools, single sex schools, religious schools, home education, private schools...whatever.

I'd personally love to see just ONE type of school, where all children are allowed to learn what they love to learn, in a happy, beautiful environment, small classes and no division of school, but kids learning in ONE school throughout their whole schoolhood...instead of the trauma of going from cosy, family primary schools, to Factory Farm secondary ones, which is so often where the deep and often life long troubles start.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,Daisybell's mum
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:17 AM

I am logging out to post this, because who I am should be irrelevant. I was very proud that my daughter was able to say what she had to say in a clear and articulate way, and that she managed to show others a lot more respect than she was given herself.

Here is an article about single-sex state schools in Britain:

Girls' state schools

To be honest, the type of school Daisybell attends shouldn't really be relevant to this discussion, and it feels like Lizzie is moving the goalposts. Daisybell wanted to present the perspective of herself and her friends: their experience of state school in 2009 as a place where not everything is sunshine and daffodils, but neither is it the nightmare world that Lizzie would have us believe.

So, to recap (and to refute some of Lizzie's more snide implications):

YES, Daisybell is a real person, and her words were completely her own. Several Mudcatters have met her.

YES, she is taking 13 GCSEs. If Lizzie understood the current school system a bit better than she seems to, she might know that some GCSEs combine study, so a single foundation with added bits going in two different directions can lead to two different GCSEs - for example, RE and Sociology. So taking 13 exams isn't as difficult to manage as it might seem.

YES, Daisybell combines a healthy social life with getting very good grades. She is given the freedom and the privileges that she has BECAUSE she works hard. That's the deal. I would not have it any other way, because I think a healthy social life and learning to get on with others and navigate difficult social situations is one of the most important things you learn at school, and it would not happen if she was cloistered away studying every evening and weekend. Life has to have a balance. But that balance may have to change somewhat when she gets to 6th Form, which will be much more challenging.

YES, she goes to a good school. As she said in her first post, we moved house so that we could be closer to this school. I would point out that we moved from a very affluent area to one that is significantly less so. Ironically, the state schools in some affluent areas (and certainly where we came from) are quite mediocre, because all of the bright kids end up going private. There also wasn't a proper state 6th Form in the area, which would have been no good when Daisybell wanted to do A Levels. So we moved.

Lizzie seems to want us to believe that the majority of schools in the UK are places of abuse, where children are terrorised, taught to have anal sex, sleep around with anybody and everybody, that they are so depressed that they self-medicate with alcohol and drugs, and that any caring parent would whip their child out of there asap to avoid them going into meltdown. As Daisybell said, there are certainly schools with problems, but there are also plenty of young people who are doing just fine. If parents choose to home school that is certainly their right, but to paint all other children as sevelrely disadvantaged and abused just because their parents have not made the same choices as you is plain wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:18 AM

And crap teachers are crap, Dave, whichever way you view it, and I will NEVER support any crap teacher.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:31 AM

I'm very pleased that your daughters managed to get 24 GCSEs between them. Just think, in 30 years time, they can still put that down on Job Application forms and wow folks.

Well it is unlikely that they will need to. Few employers would take note of thirty year old qualifications. Bur you knew that really anyway.

As a matter of fact the eldest is Facilities Manager of a large national museum. She wasn't headhunted, she applied through civil service procedures.

The younger one works in the marketing department of one of the local universities. She to went through normal selection procedures. Most employers insist on doing it to avoid being sued because they discriminated against an applicant.

I don't "take apart" or study your writings Lizzie. Only the bits where you write tosh.

But I am delighted to have young Daisybell on my side. It seems to me that the school and her parents have made a great job of bringing her up.

And let me reassure you, I have never met her parents and I have no idea where she lives. But it wouldn't matter if I did, She clearly speaks for herself.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:47 AM

And crap teachers are crap, Dave, whichever way you view it, and I will NEVER support any crap teacher.

You are absolutely correct Lizzie. Me neither,

Which is why I believe those who do home education should show that they have some knowledge of how children develop, a sense of progress in learning and so on and not be someone who as just taken their children from school for some reason.

And that if they claim success in home education they should be willing to share their methods. After all qualified teachers do it all the time. It's called professional updating.

Speaking as a successful teacher Lizzie, albeit with a class size of two, did you do much professional updating?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: maeve
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:48 AM

Thank you to Daisybell and her mum for intelligent, reasoned, and interesting posts. I appreciate the effort and integrity that are so evident. You have both handled the thread with grace and humor.

maeve

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 06:18 AM

think there are too many parents (especially working class parents unfortunately) who dump their kids at the school gate, and expect to put in exactly Zero personal effort or investment in terms of supporting their child's schooling.

I don't know if it occurred to you - but that is precisely what the upper class parents do when they send their children to boarding school!!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 06:18 AM

500

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 06:39 AM

Their children are not even allowed to sit exams for free, which they are trying to get changed.

No-one sits state exams for free. Schools are charged. It is part of their budget.
Parents just don't ever see it as an item. Fees at an FE college include the exam fee.

As an FE college and examination centre the college where I worked often had people who had not studied in the college taking exams.

Some of them were home-educated.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 06:43 AM

"that is precisely what the upper class parents do when they send their children to boarding school!!"

Perhaps. Apart from all the dosh they fork out.. ;-)

It's still very prevalent assumption amongst working class families in particular however, that their children's education has absolutely nothing to do with them. In my own experience, there was great resentment from some families that parents should ideally help their children to read before going to school, or that they should bother to supervise or assist them with their homework.

I'm speaking from personal experience, where some of my own family and my partners (working class) were either actively obstructive in some instances or dismissive of the schools requests for any kind of parental effort to aid and participate in their children's schooling.

By contrast the children of those middle-class families I knew in my peer group (not necessarily exceedingly wealthy ones) took time out to get involved. The kids from the middle-class families in the private estates tended to go on to do A'Levels, while the kids from working-class families in the council estates tended to leave at 16.

As I was at a secondary modern with a catchpool of both middle classes and working classes, I can bare witness to the difference in both attitudes of parents and resultant successes or otherwise, of their children at the same school.

This thread possibly doesn't have much baring on what happens at boarding school, where children are err 'at school' all the time. So parents don't have an active role in their childs education, or indeed in *any* of their child's daily life.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 07:18 AM

I don't doubt that some parents take little interest in there children's education. I have spent enough time at parents evenings both as a teacher and as a parent to know this.

I was just making the point that it isn't simply based on social class. And when parents send their children to boarding school it is precisely the equivalent of leaving them at the school gate except it is for a lot longer. In that context the fact they have paid for the privilege is more or less irrelevant.

There is a huge amount of literature and research that has been done on the relationship between social class and education. Anyone interested beyond the merely anecdotal has plenty to go at!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 07:34 AM

Well, hello to 'Daisybell's' Mum! :0)

Now, I wonder who that could be....?

"We did not choose the school because it was single sex, but because geographically, economically and academically, it made the most sense for us."

But, you moved there *because* of the school, didn't you? I'd presume you moved there because you wanted the best for your child, and felt the League Tables of that school proved it was the best in the area, therefore, you moved there, in order to be able to get Daisy into the school, as in, it was a specific move to go to a specific school, not a move based around job, economics or geography, but purely around that particular school. Unless I've got that wrong.

Many parents do that. There are children who live in Sidmouth who can't go to school in Sidmouth, because children from Exmouth have been able to find a place there, so desperate are some parents to get their kids to a smaller school..and Exmouth was (so I've been told, but my 'secretary' Dave, will check the facts for me in a moment)...yes, Exmouth was the biggest secondary school in Europe, making it into the Guinness Book of Records, for that reason...

Mind you, that was 10 years back, so the goalposts may have changed...

It was in Exmouth one day, whilst walking on the beach with our dogs that we got talking to a young boy from that school. I'd thrown the ball for Gruffy, one of our dogs, and she'd picked it up and taken it to him and his mates, who then started playing with her...

The young lad had his arm all wrapped in crepe bandages, so I asked him what he'd done, was it serious etc...and he told me (some may recall this story)...he told me that a fellow pupil at school had poured Lynx Aftershave over his hand and arm, then had thrown a match at him...and WHOOSH!

I was shocked..but not surprised.

Why?

Because EXACTLY the same thing had happened to another young lad, a visitor from Germany..to Tavistock College...and one of the somewhat disturbed kids on the ccach had got his bottle of Lynx out of his bag, thrown some on this poor German lad and done exactly the same thing, with a match...

It was the bus my daughter used to go to school on, from Horrabridge, each day...and I'd merrily wave her goodbye, from my bedroom window, which overlooked the road the bus turned up into...

I had no idea what she was enduring on that bus, nor witnessing...

I ended up getting that boy banned from the bus for the things he was doing to Nonny...but the ban only lasted 2 weeks...and he was back...

I fully understand that he was having a rough time at home, no father around, away in the Marines etc....but no child, or adult either, gets to hurt my child or anyone else's and not be brought to their senses over it.

So yes, 'Daisybell' is very lucky with her school, and with her school chums. I do hope that after reading some of these stories she realises exactly HOW lucky she is, because there are many such stories, many such children.....in a system that has ceased to care.

Dave, the teachers themselves said that children are now showing many signs of mental disorder...at their Torquay Conference last year.....

Would you, as a teacher yourself, care to comment on this fact?

Would you care to comment that the teachers said they want less homework given out, less pressure on the children over exams, less control....?

Be my guest, you're a teacher, give me a comment on what your own fellow teachers are saying....

Tell me why my Education Welfare Officer had long conversations with me about how all the excellent teachers are leaving because they cannot stomach what's happening...

Phone up a lady called Sue, in Torquay Library, PM me and I'll give you her surname....and listen to her tell you why SHE left teaching, Dave...She will tell you that she left because of 'The System' and because of how many of her fellow pupils talked to and treated the children entrusted into their care each day.   

She now teaches children who have learning difficulties, in Torquay Library, Dave..teaching them computer skills...that's why I rang her, to see what courses she was doing, for my son.

She has a young lad in a wheelchair too. She told me that she never gives herself 'a pat on the back' normally, but this little lad was something special. He came to her in his wheelchair. No-one knew why he couldn't walk. He wouldn't talk either. All he wanted to do was read Thomas The Tank Engine books, over and over. He was 14 years old.

So, she took Thomas out into the computer, and she spent time with this lad, showing him caring and patience and love....

Now he's going graphic design. He's out of his wheelchair, walking and talking.....and he has a life!

I told her she was bloody marvellous!

She also is severely worried about what this Government is trying to do with Home Education, making it more and more controlled, more and more difficult to do. Her argument is that it's actually about money, because the more children who are home educated, the more EWO's they need...and the more children who are expelled, the more 'free education' they have to give them....and of course, more children ARE being expelled....even for just using a mobile phone....


And....the beat goes on.............

And I hope that Tug is able to have a happy ending to the problems he spoke of earlier in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 07:39 AM

"..because of how many of her fellow pupils.."

Oops, that should read...of course...'because of her fellow teachers'

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 07:53 AM

"My mum works, and she is my best friend. She has made loads of sacrifices for me. We moved house so I could go to the school where I am now."

I'm just kinda puzzled as to what was wrong with the local school in your previous area....

Did it have problems?

It's just that people here keep telling me that there are no problems and everything's absolutely hunkydory 'out there' so I'd love to know about the local school you moved away from, that's all.

Hey, I moved too for that very reason...one of the reasons I ended up in Sidmouth, along with the International Folk Festival...sadly though, Sidmouth College was little different from Tavistock.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 08:01 AM

lizzie, i find your response to the anonimity of daisy and her mum outragous and frankly worrying.
why do you have the right to out them, when they do not wish to be identified?

it should NOT matter who they are or where they are.

what does matter is their experiance with schooling.


i think parental interest in eduacation make a huge difference, mine couldn't be bothered once i could read and write, didn't take any notice of the activities i enjoyed and so i lost interest in school.

it sounds like daisy's mum has found exactly the right balance between taking an interest and letting her have her own life and opinions.

take care all

jade x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 08:20 AM

I don't understand why a grown woman would be so resentful of a child whose only crime seems to be that she is happy and successful. Daisybell and Mom - I too salute your patience and humor. Congratulations to both of you for a job well done.

More nonsense from Lizzie:

"Tell you what Mary, if I was sitting here telling them that my daughter was at a grammar/private school all Socialist Hell would break loose over me, but....strangely, not one of them has even mentioned this amazing fact."

"Not sure why parents go for single sex schools anymore....to be honest, as it's not a single sex world out there...and Dave, in all honesty, hypocrisy aside...if *I* had sent my kids to single sex schools, you...and all who sail in you, would be slagging me off for choosing some kind of 'selective' education..."

No Lizzie - nobody cares what you do. This isn't all about you and your battle with the world.
For someone who is always whining about apologies due her, you are very slow to offer one to Daisybell or even to stop using quotation marks though you have been asked several times.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smedley
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 08:25 AM

It strikes me as very revealing that Lizzie's way of dealing with someone who enjoys and flourishes at *one* school is to try and dig up stuff about what went wrong at *another* school. She is on an anti-school crusade & like all crusaders she tends towards a selective interpretation.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 09:18 AM

I'll have one more try to get the thread back on track. Home Schooling is not for everyone. Neither is mainstream schooling. As the proportion of people who are home schooled is far less than those in mainstream education, the number of people who are adversely affected by home education is significantly less than those who are adversely affected by mainsteam schools. Please not that I specificaly quote PROPROTIONS here. I am not saying that the percentage of children who do not fit in to mainstream is higher than those who loose out by being eductated at home. I do not know what the figures are but I would suspect that someone out there will tell us. Whether we can rely on any figures quoted, unless backed up by genuine evidence, is entirely up to yourselves.

One bit of anecdotal experience. At school I was 'blessed with the gift of Asthma'. Yes, I am using that phrase ironicaly. It meant I was crap at sports and never picked for teams. Until that is I discovered I could do fast sprints with lots of rest between down the right wing of the Rugby League pitch. I played for the school team betwen the ages of 13 and 15. We won the interschools championship and regional finals. Had I have been taken out of sdchool, a distinct possibility at one time, I don't think I would ever have experienced the thrill of winning a competetion. Just me. Just anectdotal.

Cheers

DeG

BTW - FolkieDave. Your analysis of why I am not supporting someone else was spot on:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 09:18 AM

t's just that people here keep telling me that there are no problems and everything's absolutely hunkydory 'out there' so I'd love to know about the local school you moved away from, that's all.

No Lizzie, lots of people have said just the opposite and speaking personally I can identify lots of things that are wrong with the current education system, I would imagine from the perspective of the insider probably better than you.

But schools and colleges are mostly full of young hard-working people who want to do well. And they are mostly full of hard-working teachers who want them to do well.

One thing I have learnt about young people though Lizzie, they don't always tell adults the truth. Are you sure Lynx burns like he said? I can't be bothered to look. I know neither of the after shaves I have, carry any warnings about flammability though they are not Lynx. Deodorants do carry warnings but that is not because of the contents -it is because of the gas in the container. I think it might be quite hard to burn someone as you said - but I really have no idea.

But maybe you are correct, maybe it is flammable. After all in loads of wild unsubstantiated statements the statistics would indicate that you may be correct occasionally.

I am delighted that the young man in the wheelchair got the teaching he needed. But it doesn't make the case for someone to home educate. In fact since the person who taught him was an ex-teacher it seems to me it makes just the opposite case. But don't let the facts spoil a good story.

Incidentally - I no longer teach I am retired - it's how I can spend time researching and writing on the internet. Fortunately I don't have a 15 year old son to educate. That would take up all of my time even were I a qualified teacher.

But I suppose you can always pass him onto someone else, the builder for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 09:38 AM

She is on an anti-school crusade & like all crusaders she tends towards a selective interpretation.

The comforting thing is that as a home educator there is no chance of passing this onto her children.

Any more than she would pass on her lack of analysis and critical understanding when reading the Daily Mail or something she has read off the internet.

Any more than she would pass on her..................

Well I suppose you get the picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 09:43 AM

I did a search on attacks with Lynx deodorant and came up with one instance in which it failed to light. Nothing else.
A boy of 12 did die of an asthma attack when he overused the product.
Urban legend?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 09:45 AM

Sorry Dave. You are right. My final observation: some students thrive with home schooling; some thrive in classroom settings. Both options have a place in our education system.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 09:53 AM

I too am greatly exercised as to why Lizzie WILL persist in putting quotes around this young woman's name, when she has been told repeatedly that it is regarded as disagreeable and unacceptable. WHY, Lizzie? What good do you think it does you & your cause to be so persistently, ostentatiously, contrarily, & UNNECESSARILY offensive?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 11:43 AM

"Incidentally - I no longer teach I am retired - it's how I can spend time researching and writing on the internet. Fortunately I don't have a 15 year old son to educate. That would take up all of my time even were I a qualified teacher.

But I suppose you can always pass him onto someone else, the builder for example."


The builder lost his friend two hours back, Dave. His other friend found him dead...He went home early.

Who the fuck are you to be so bloody condescending to me? Geez! You give teachers a bad name!

I don't hothouse my son...He's free! That's the WHOLE point of Home Education, that we are NOT tied into the system as you choose to be. My son is a bloody wonderful human being, so you leave him out of this.

Sorry about 'Daisybell'.......but I question many things and I'm afraid that something doesn't add up there. Just my feelings, to which I have an absolute right, as does Dave to his and Mary's to hers.

Home Education is about freedom. It is about NOT being tied down by the opinions of others, and accepting that everyone has a right to their own way of life, which is why I told 'Daisybell' and Dave that I'm fine about their school choices...'Daisybell's Mum' too....We all want what's best for our children.

I'm just interested in why people choose certain schools, choosing to move to get to another one.

I did it because the experieces of my daughter at one school were terrible...and I was wondering whether this was the same reason why 'Daisybell's Mum' also moved. That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 11:43 AM

home schooling should be monitored as perents could be way out of their depth but not have the inteligence to realize it. leaving the child wanting and needing more than the parent can provide.

it is currently open to abuse by needy or clingy parents, who use it to keep their child under their total control.

there should at least be guidelines as to the levels of basic education that the child should be reaching.

reading, writing and basic maths should be tested.

as a friend said, when we were talking about this the other day.
just imagine if that 12 year old girl who burnt the gollyat this years red white and blue festival was to be taught at home, would and are the things her parents are teaching her acceptable?

home schooling comes with some serious pitfalls.
we get so much of our beliefs from our parents even going to school, just how much power to quash free thinking would they have if at home all day as well?

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 11:48 AM

To all the people who have contributed to this thread.

I doubt more correspondence will take us much further. I feel that my own, (many teachers would think) very liberal position has been stated. In case you don't get it Lizzie - I am in favour.

My argument against home education (UK) is that anyone - but anyone - is allowed to do it, with no proof of competence and knowledge.

And in that context Lizzie you are a shining beacon.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:08 PM

So, Lizzie, on your say so we are expected to believe that everything is hunky-dory in the Cornish household. Fine - I accept that and beleive you unequivocably. Will you show Daisybell and her mother the same consideration?

Look at it this way. We have no more indsider knowledge of your situation than we do of Daisybell's. Who are we to believe? If you have something to say about Daisybell or her mother why do you not come out and say it? Throughout we have seen nothing but calm reasoned statements from Daisybell and her mother, against overwhelming antagonism. I thank them both for that and hope that they stay around. Have we ssen the same calm reasoning from you?

I will, as always, let people make up their own minds.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:21 PM

'Daisybell' and 'Daisybell's Mum' have had nothing but politeness from me, Dave.

I've stated that I hope 'Daisybell' joins Mudcat and learns much from the threads, the music ones in particular, as she said she likes folk music.

I've asked 'Daisybell's Mum' to say why she moved specifically for her daughter to go to a particular school. I did a similar thing....so I'm interested. Where is the rudeness in that?

I've also given other examples, yes...true ones...about the things other children have happen to them at school.    There are two sides to everything, you know.

"And in that context Lizzie you are a shining beacon. "

Actually Dave, I am...You wanna know why? Because of my children, that's why. I'm bloody proud of them both and how they've coped with what they had to cope with at school...and how they've risen above it all.

Strangely, a friend of mine, who sent all her 3 children to private school, re-mortgaging her house to do so, was talking to my daughter for ages fairly recently...and at the end of it she said.."If I had my time over again, I'd go for home education, because I could talk to Nonny for hours and hours. She's so interesting. All that money we spent!"

Yup, I am a shining beacon. You may not like that fact, but there ya go....and yes, I did get your meaning....

"home schooling comes with some serious pitfalls.
we get so much of our beliefs from our parents even going to school, just how much power to quash free thinking would they have if at home all day as well?"

Well, if you believe that one, then ALL children should be taken away from the parents at birth and put into institutions until they are old enough to work for the State.

Sorry, jade, but that is way out of order.

So tell me, what about the teachers who choose to indoctrinate their pupils with THEIR own beliefs? And yes, believe you me, it DOES happen.

Open your eyes......

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:28 PM

I didn't think Jade was out of order at all.
She spoke very good sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:30 PM

Check out the "homeschooling" provided by some Christian cults in US if you want to see some of the dangers.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:41 PM

not all children!!!   i do think parents need to understand that having a child is the most exhausting and demanding thing they will ever do.

i may not have kids lizzie but i look around and see can't be bothered parenting. kids running round shops with parents screeching at them. is that the sort of person you want tto teach their kids, they cannot teach them basic manners let alone anything else

of course i am generalising. however you happen to iss the crucial part of that post and i have noticed you have skipped it because attacking me is easier for you.

would YOU want the parents of that 12 year old girl, teaching YOUR kids?

i understand you have had issues with daisybells mum, however it does show you in a rather bad light to be taking that out on her 15 year old daughter.

just so you know jade is not my real name(on my birth certificate) are you going to put 'marks' round my name now too?

it seems that because you happen to know who daisy is, you have the right to take away her freedom of choice for her name....so much for that ideal then lizzie.

sorry everyone, i couldn't help myself.

take care all

jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 01:43 PM

I don't know how things are structured in the UK, but in the US, at least, schools that are privately owned and run are not subject to any kinds or monitoring or testing or any kind of government intervention at all. And there are plenty of schools that are as cloistered as any home schooling situation and that teach the same kind of religious doctrine as some of the more extreme home schooling situations here. So in the US, just focusing on the home schooling situations would not work. The private schools would have to be subject to the same standards as the home schooling households.

I guarantee that ain't never gonna happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:10 PM

Wrong Carol:
http://www.ed.gov/pubs/RegPrivSchl/index.html

Schools are accredited and can lose their accredidation if they do not meet minimum standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:10 PM

I have met Daisy's mum very briefly at two Folk Festivals and, although I knew she had a daughter, I have never had the pleasure of meeting her and had no idea of where they lived.

I'm sorry to see that some of Daisy's mum's replies to Lizzie are no longer on the thread; I thought that they were informative and courteous.

Earlier today I received a PM from Daisy's mum requesting me to ring and speak to her daughter who was confused and annoyed that Lizzie appeared to be questioning her authenticity as the author of her posts and to confirm that she really was the independant thinking young woman she claimed to be.

I chatted to Daisy and found her to be an articualte young woman.
We discussed her GCSEs which are structured very differently to the 10 I took a very long ago and I am convinced by the strength of her feelings and frankness that the posts really were 'all her own work'

I hope that this helps to dispel any misunderstanding that Daisy isn't exactly who and what she claims to be here and I hope that she can continue to contribute to other threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: paula t
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:14 PM

As a teacher I do not totally disagree with home education , but it should not be seen merely as a "opt out" of a difficult situation.I think that home education can be a hugely beneficial thing for some children. However, I do believe that parents should equip their children with the skills they will need as adults. I think it incredibly unfair for parents to neglect the teaching of science, literacy ,maths etc to their children because of their own political views about life and society in general.As adults these people will wish to choose their own careers and will therefore be in competition with people who have qualifications and recognised skills.
Freedom of choice is restricted if someone does not have qualifications.No matter how unfair or "blinkered" this would seem to be.Parents have the responsibility to take this on board and help their children - whether the concept appeals or not. I have been incredibly frustrated on a number of occasions when trying to help children who have found school hard and have wanted to opt out.This frustration has not been with the child (I remember feeling that way myself on many occasions as a child. It is a very natural reaction to want to run away from difficulties.) My frustration and despair has been with those parents who have explained that their child doesn't need an education because they are "Going into the family business". This has often been accompanied by sentiments such as, "I haven't got any qualifications, but look where I am ".These parents have imposed their own insecurities onto their children.It is incredibly unfair. The child is a different person to the grown up. The child is a "clean slate" not a continuation of the parents bad experiences.It is wrong to limit a child's life chances by imposing a personal grudge on them.

Parents need to remember that their children are not able to make decisions yet about the path their adult life will take and thus what they need to learn.They need to be given the tools and the support to be someone new and the best they can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: GUEST,daisybell
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:42 PM

Thank you to everyone that's been supportive about this, I really only came to put my opinions on the situation out there and I hope they've been useful to some people. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: maeve
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 02:55 PM

Daisybell, you have been both helpful and interesting.

maeve

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 03:02 PM

Indeed you have Daisybell.

Well done!! And if yiu are ever at a folk festival and see a bookseller, it might be me! Please say hello!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 03:34 PM

The person who posted the link about accreditation is wrong. It varies from state to state. From the link provided up above, the state of Maryland, for instance. Maryland's standards for home schooling environments are stricter than for private schools (although they had no required standards when I home schooled there around 1990)..

"Institutions operated by bona fide church organizations are exempt from the requirement to hold a Certificate of Approval from the Maryland State Board of Education. The head of the bona fide church organization must, however, submit to the State Department of Education acceptable evidence of the bona fide church organization legal authority status and certification of the legal authority?s assumption of responsibility for governing and operating the nonpublic school."

(Legal authority status is doesn't have anything to do with accreditation.)


And let's see... oh, I don't know... Alabama...

"Registration/Licensing/Accreditation: All private schools, except church schools, must register annually on or before October 10 with the Alabama Department of Education and report on the number of students and instructors, enrollment, attendance, course of study, length of term, cost of tuition, funds, value of property, and the general condition of the school. Ala. Code § 16-1-11. The state superintendent of education furnishes the necessary forms for reporting. Ala. Code § 16-4-16.

"Church schools" are defined as schools offering "instruction in grades K-12, or any combination thereof including the kindergarten, elementary, or secondary level and are operated as a ministry of a local church, group of churches, denomination, and/or association of churches on a nonprofit basis which do not receive any state or federal funding." Ala. Code 16-28-1.

Licensing by the Alabama Department of Education is required annually prior to the operation of a private school. Ala. Code § 16-46-5. However, most private elementary and secondary schools would qualify for exemptions, as schools operated by "a parochial, denominational, or religious organization, and/or as a ministry of a local church or group of churches on a nonprofit basis" or schools operated by "a community, educational organization, or group of parents, organized as a nonprofit educational corporation with the expectation of establishing a more favorable environment for those in attendance." Ala. Code § 16-46-3. Exempted private schools may voluntarily request to be licensed without surety. Ala. Code § 16-46-3(d). Licensing is based on specific criteria, such as, the quality and content of curriculum, adequate space, equipment, instructional materials and personnel, recordkeeping, and financial stability. Ala. Code § 16-46-5(i)(1)-(7). Ala. Admin. Code r. 290-030-050.

By definition, a private school, but not a church school, holds a certificate issued by the state superintendent of education showing that the school conforms to the following requirements: (1) instruction is given by persons holding certificates issued by the state superintendent of education; (2) instruction is given in the several branches of study required to be taught in the public schools; (3) the English language is used in giving instruction; 4) a register of attendance is kept indicating every absence of each child from school for a half day or more. Ala. Code § 16-28-1(1)."


Arkansas doesn't address the subject of accreditation at all. And its requirements for home schools are stricter than for private schools.


In some of the states in that link accreditation is not required for religious schools, and in some cases not for other kinds of private schools, either, but they do have curriculum requirements. Many don't mention anything about mandatory testing.

I haven't looked at all of them, but that's a sampling of schools that don't require accreditation (or have any other academically related requirements of private schools and/or religious schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 03:57 PM

"I don't know how things are structured in the UK, but in the US, at least, schools that are privately owned and run are not subject to any kinds or monitoring or testing or any kind of government intervention at all."

I repeat "Wrong Carol'. Here is Alabama's listing. They are definitely subject to monitoring and government interference. Arkansas has government requirements for everything from scoliosis testing to flags in private schools. Even Alaska requires mandatory testing of certain grades in private schools.

It is important to read everything and not pick and choose what fits your statement.





Alabama
Registration/Licensing/Accreditation: All private schools, except church schools, must register annually on or before October 10 with the Alabama Department of Education and report on the number of students and instructors, enrollment, attendance, course of study, length of term, cost of tuition, funds, value of property, and the general condition of the school. Ala. Code § 16-1-11. The state superintendent of education furnishes the necessary forms for reporting. Ala. Code § 16-4-16.

"Church schools" are defined as schools offering "instruction in grades K-12, or any combination thereof including the kindergarten, elementary, or secondary level and are operated as a ministry of a local church, group of churches, denomination, and/or association of churches on a nonprofit basis which do not receive any state or federal funding." Ala. Code 16-28-1.

Licensing by the Alabama Department of Education is required annually prior to the operation of a private school. Ala. Code § 16-46-5. However, most private elementary and secondary schools would qualify for exemptions, as schools operated by "a parochial, denominational, or religious organization, and/or as a ministry of a local church or group of churches on a nonprofit basis" or schools operated by "a community, educational organization, or group of parents, organized as a nonprofit educational corporation with the expectation of establishing a more favorable environment for those in attendance." Ala. Code § 16-46-3. Exempted private schools may voluntarily request to be licensed without surety. Ala. Code § 16-46-3(d). Licensing is based on specific criteria, such as, the quality and content of curriculum, adequate space, equipment, instructional materials and personnel, recordkeeping, and financial stability. Ala. Code § 16-46-5(i)(1)-(7). Ala. Admin. Code r. 290-030-050.

By definition, a private school, but not a church school, holds a certificate issued by the state superintendent of education showing that the school conforms to the following requirements: (1) instruction is given by persons holding certificates issued by the state superintendent of education; (2) instruction is given in the several branches of study required to be taught in the public schools; (3) the English language is used in giving instruction; 4) a register of attendance is kept indicating every absence of each child from school for a half day or more. Ala. Code § 16-28-1(1).

Recordkeeping/Reports: The principal teacher of private and church schools must keep an attendance register showing the enrollment of the school and every absence of each enrolled child from school for a half day or more. Ala. Code § 16-28-8. The registry is admissible as evidence in compulsory attendance hearings. Ala. Code of Ala. 1975 § 16-28-23.

Private schools, i.e. a profit or nonprofit entity as opposed to publicly owned or operated schools, which cease operations shall place student academic attendance and financial aid records in the following repository: (1) if merged, consolidated, or change of ownership, in the continuing school; (2) if part of a system, organization, franchise, or church ministry, in the administrative office; (3) if without system support, with the local superintendent of the public county or city. Code of Ala. 1975 § 16-46-3(e).

At the end of the fifth day from the opening of the public school, the principal teacher of each private school, but not church school, must report to the local superintendent the names and addresses of all children age 7-16 enrolled; and thereafter, at least weekly the names of students absent without excuse. Code of Ala. 1975 § 16-28-7.

At church schools, enrollment and attendance must be reported to the local public school superintendent by the parent or guardian on a form provided by the superintendent. The administrator of the church school countersigns the enrollment form. If a child leaves the church school, the church school will notify the local public school superintendent, by prior consent of the parent or guardian. Ala. Code § 16-28-7.

Length of School Year/Day: Under the compulsory attendance law, children attending private schools, but not church schools, are required to attend "the entire length of the school term." Ala. Code § 16-28-3.

Instruction in English: Private schools, but not church schools, are required to use the English language in giving instruction. Ala. Code § 16-28-1(1).

Teacher Certification: Instruction at private schools, but not church schools, must be provided by persons holding certificates issued by the state superintendent of education. Ala. Code § 16-28-1 (1)a, (2).

Curriculum: Private schools, but not church schools, are required to offer instruction in "the several branches of study required to be taught in the public schools." Ala. Code § 16-28-1(1).

Private schools, but not church schools, must provide a physical education program which conforms to the program outlined by the Alabama Department of Education. Ala. Code § 16-40-1.

Health: A certificate of immunization or testing (as designated by the state health officer) is required prior to admittance to a private school. Ala. Code § 16-30-4.

No teacher or school administrator employed by a nonpublic school is excluded from participating in in-service teacher education institutes or curriculum development programs for drug abuse prevention provided under Chapter 41, Drug Abuse Education. Ala. Code § 16-41-5.

Safety: Alabama requires all private schools to conduct monthly fire drills and to have all doors and exits open out, and that all such doors and exits be unlocked during school hours. Ala. Code § 36-19-10.

Private school employers must check the sex crime records of job applicants or volunteers for positions having supervisory or disciplinary power over minors under 18 years of age. The Department of Public Safety will furnish the information to the requesting employer and may charge the employer a fee for the actual cost. Ala. Code § 26-20-1.

Private schools must fully meet the building code requirements unless the building was used for that purpose prior to the effective date of the code. Ala. Code § 41-9-163(c).

An additional penalty of 5 years incarceration, with no provision for probation, is imposed for the unlawful sale of a controlled substance on the campus of a private school or within a three-mile radius of the campus. Ala. Code § 13a-12-250.,

Transportation: A license tax or registration fee of $13.00 is imposed on motor buses owned by a church or a private school that are used only for the purposes of the institution. Ala. Code § 40-12-246 (d).

Home Schooling: Every child between the ages of 7 and 16 are required to attend a public school, private school, church school, or be instructed by a private tutor certified by the state of Alabama for the entire length of the school term in every scholastic subject. Parents who want to have their child instructed at home must either do so through a certified tutor or must qualify as a church school. Church schools offer instruction in grades K-12 or any combination thereof; are operated as a ministry of a local church or group of churches, denomination, and/or association of churches on a nonprofit basis; and do not receive any federal or state funding. Ala. Code §§ 16-28-1; 16-28-3. The enrollment and attendance of a child in a church school must be filed with the local public school superintendent by the parent or guardian on a form provided. Ala. Code § 16-28-7.

Public Aid for Private Schools/Private School Students: No money raised for the support of the public schools can be appropriated to or used for the support of any sectarian or denomination school. Alabama Constitution, Article 14, Section 263.

The Alabama state legislature is prohibited from taxing school property, real or personal. Alabama Constitution, Article 4, Section 91.

No teacher or school administrator employed by a nonpublic school is excluded from participating in in-service teacher education institutes or curriculum development programs for drug abuse prevention provided under Chapter 41, Drug Abuse Education. Ala. Code §16-41-5.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:00 PM

Read it again. Church schools are exempted. That's why I bolded the part that says that church schools are exempted in my last post.

So the above poster is the one who is WRONG.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:03 PM

Here it is, yet once again...

"Registration/Licensing/Accreditation: All private schools, except church schools, must register annually on or before October 10 with the Alabama Department of Education and report on the number of students and instructors, enrollment, attendance, course of study, length of term, cost of tuition, funds, value of property, and the general condition of the school. Ala. Code § 16-1-11. The state superintendent of education furnishes the necessary forms for reporting. Ala. Code § 16-4-16.

"Church schools" are defined as schools offering "instruction in grades K-12, or any combination thereof including the kindergarten, elementary, or secondary level and are operated as a ministry of a local church, group of churches, denomination, and/or association of churches on a nonprofit basis which do not receive any state or federal funding." Ala. Code 16-28-1.

Licensing by the Alabama Department of Education is required annually prior to the operation of a private school. Ala. Code § 16-46-5. However, most private elementary and secondary schools would qualify for EXEMPTIONS, as schools operated by "a parochial, denominational, or religious organization, and/or as a ministry of a local church or group of churches on a nonprofit basis" or schools operated by "a community, educational organization, or group of parents, organized as a nonprofit educational corporation with the expectation of establishing a more favorable environment for those in attendance." Ala. Code § 16-46-3. Exempted private schools may voluntarily request to be licensed without surety. Ala. Code § 16-46-3(d). Licensing is based on specific criteria, such as, the quality and content of curriculum, adequate space, equipment, instructional materials and personnel, recordkeeping, and financial stability. Ala. Code § 16-46-5(i)(1)-(7). Ala. Admin. Code r. 290-030-050.

By definition, a private school, but not a church school, holds a certificate issued by the state superintendent of education showing that the school conforms to the following requirements: (1) instruction is given by persons holding certificates issued by the state superintendent of education; (2) instruction is given in the several branches of study required to be taught in the public schools; (3) the English language is used in giving instruction; 4) a register of attendance is kept indicating every absence of each child from school for a half day or more. Ala. Code § 16-28-1(1)."

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:17 PM

Read it all. Neither private nor church schools or for that matter home schools are free to do as they please in Alabama.
You state:
"I don't know how things are structured in the UK, but in the US, at least, schools that are privately owned and run are not subject to any kinds or monitoring or testing or any kind of government intervention at all."

Maybe you have the US confused with Canada.

There are government requirements in Alabama for church schools:


Recordkeeping/Reports: The principal teacher of private and church schools must keep an attendance register showing the enrollment of the school and every absence of each enrolled child from school for a half day or more. Ala. Code § 16-28-8. The registry is admissible as evidence in compulsory attendance hearings. Ala. Code of Ala. 1975 § 16-28-23.

At church schools, enrollment and attendance must be reported to the local public school superintendent by the parent or guardian on a form provided by the superintendent. The administrator of the church school countersigns the enrollment form. If a child leaves the church school, the church school will notify the local public school superintendent, by prior consent of the parent or guardian. Ala. Code § 16-28-7.

Transportation: A license tax or registration fee of $13.00 is imposed on motor buses owned by a church or a private school that are used only for the purposes of the institution. Ala. Code § 40-12-246 (d).

Home Schooling is also regulated:
Home Schooling: Every child between the ages of 7 and 16 are required to attend a public school, private school, church school, or be instructed by a private tutor certified by the state of Alabama for the entire length of the school term in every scholastic subject. Parents who want to have their child instructed at home must either do so through a certified tutor or must qualify as a church school. Church schools offer instruction in grades K-12 or any combination thereof; are operated as a ministry of a local church or group of churches, denomination, and/or association of churches on a nonprofit basis; and do not receive any federal or state funding. Ala. Code §§ 16-28-1; 16-28-3. The enrollment and attendance of a child in a church school must be filed with the local public school superintendent by the parent or guardian on a form provided. Ala. Code § 16-28-7.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:17 PM

In Alabama, the parents of children in church schools have to report their child's attendance in a church school. The school does not have to report it. The school only countersigns the form. The school has to obey fire codes and things like that. They are not subject to accreditation, their curricula don't have to be approved, the teachers don't have to hold certificates from the state board of education, and there is no mandatory length of school year. The church schools don't have any academically related requirements.

At the end of the fifth day from the opening of the public school, the principal teacher of each private school, but not church school, must report to the local superintendent the names and addresses of all children age 7-16 enrolled; and thereafter, at least weekly the names of students absent without excuse. Code of Ala. 1975 § 16-28-7.

At church schools, enrollment and attendance must be reported to the local public school superintendent by the parent or guardian on a form provided by the superintendent. The administrator of the church school countersigns the enrollment form. If a child leaves the church school, the church school will notify the local public school superintendent, by prior consent of the parent or guardian. Ala. Code § 16-28-7.

Length of School Year/Day: Under the compulsory attendance law, children attending private schools, but not church schools, are required to attend "the entire length of the school term." Ala. Code § 16-28-3.

Instruction in English: Private schools, but not church schools, are required to use the English language in giving instruction. Ala. Code § 16-28-1(1).

Teacher Certification: Instruction at private schools, but not church schools, must be provided by persons holding certificates issued by the state superintendent of education. Ala. Code § 16-28-1 (1)a, (2).

Curriculum: Private schools, but not church schools, are required to offer instruction in "the several branches of study required to be taught in the public schools." Ala. Code § 16-28-1(1).

Private schools, but not church schools, must provide a physical education program which conforms to the program outlined by the Alabama Department of Education. Ala. Code § 16-40-1.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:18 PM

I was wrong in thinking that what I said applied to all of the US. The above poster was WRONG in thinking it applied to none of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:19 PM

(the above poster who is not me)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:20 PM

And as I said (and I was right), the standards applied to home schoolers in Alabama are stricter than they are for church schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:22 PM

"I don't know how things are structured in the UK, but in the US, at least, schools that are privately owned and run are not subject to any kinds or monitoring or testing or any kind of government intervention at all."

This is what you said.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:23 PM

Please read my 05 Oct 09 - 04:18 PM post.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:25 PM

"The above poster was WRONG in thinking it applied to none of it."

Really? You have not found one stste that has no government requirement for non-public schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:32 PM

Ah, I see now where the nit picking is taking place. Ok, I will retract what I said about there not being any government interference in the schools I mentioned.

However the statement that Schools are accredited and can lose their accredidation if they do not meet minimum standards is wrong. SOME schools are accredited and can lose their accreditation if they do not meet minimum standards. Other schools do not have to be accredited at all.

So my actual point, which the nit picker is studiously ignoring, still stands. If one applies the standard that was being advocated, to require all home schooling environments to be accredited and to be required to meed certain academic standards is applied to only home schooling situations, that will NOT correct the problem that was articulated as the reason for wanting these standards unless they are also applied to ALL private schools, including church schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:34 PM

It's really not about the issues for the poster who is spending so much time haranguing people in this thread. It's all about throwing their weight around and trying to control what other people can and can't say in the thread. Some people just keep squealing until others just walk away shaking their heads.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:52 PM

Ah Carol - the old fall back position when your half truths are outed.

Interestingly enough Texas has no requirements for home schooling or for attendance reports. They do have health and safety requirements though.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:56 PM

At least I'm capable of admitting when I'm wrong, unlike the nit picking haranguer.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 04:59 PM

But still not walking away shaking your head I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:03 PM

LOL

*shakes head and walks away*

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 04:08 AM

Thanks for the 'clarification' of the situation regards accredation of US schools ladies.. It read like a comedy script! Anyhoo..

I don't know whether there are ANY exemptions among UK schools for testing of standards? Are there things faith schools get away with that regular schools don't? No idea, my assumption is that they must meet all the usual academic requirements as any secular school.

Amongst lesser issues like needy parents (yes they exist too) being too dependent on their children. Jeddy commented on the possible dangers of extremists like neo-Nazi's being in a position to utterly brainwash their kids through keeping them out of school, and thus preventing them access to any other ideas which might undermine their complete indoctrination.

LC thought J was being "out of order", so I just threw up the "home-schooling" (which appears to amount to little more than religious brainwashing) in some extreme Christian groups in US, as an example of equally dodgy but quite real potential pit-falls of home education v's traditional schooling.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:35 AM

In the UK the famous Summerhill school, founded by AS Neill managed to fight of Ofsted in the courts precisely on this issue.
   Steiner schools also have their own ways of doing things, and are working with the government to see if the systems can co-exist in the mainstream ( as they do in germany)with the setting up of a Steiner-Waldorf academy in Herefordshire.
   There are still many free schools as well, notably the small school at Hartland, thye Park school at Dartington, and Sands school at newton Abbot.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:38 AM

What happens when children from such schools err want to enter careers that require degrees? Don't they have any standard examinations?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:27 AM

I referred to a free school earlier in this thread. I was referring to Summerhill.

Long time since I was there, in fact the school is highly structured - but nothing is compulsory. There is a meeting three times each week. Classes are in fact fairly formal, they are just not compulsory.

The school has been inspected twice I think. The first time it was inspected as a normal "school", the second "on its own terms". The second time around it was inspected on its own terms and flew through. Bit of bad carpet here and there.

This is all available on the school's own website.

The majority of pupils are from abroad when I was there and I have to tell you it isn't cheap.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:33 AM

Students brought up in Summerhill that would want to go to University would study "normally" - if they need qualifications they are expected to work for them.

But Universities do not need "qualifications" as such. Once you are over 21 they can accept anyone they like. I don't have "standard qualifications". The vast majority of mature
students don't have standard qualifications.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:49 AM

I was at university with a student who had been educated at Summerhill. She had 4 A grades at A level like every one else but the difference was that she had investigated for herself what it would take to get to where she wanted to be (a conference interpreter), and set her own goals and study plan. Her family background was, however, extremely dodgy (though there was money or she couldn't, presumably, have gone there) and she was glad to be detached from it. She was also the most balanced student I came across, the life and soul of all the parties and with by far the most mature outlook of any of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:58 AM

One odd presumption by the more aggressive homeschooling advocates here seems to be that going to school precludes learning anything from your parents.

A thread about disability aids was what brought that up. It occurred to me that my automatic response - fix it up yourself unless you know you're out of your depth - wasn't shared by everybody. But then I was brought up to fix things. My father was an architect and did a lot of home construction, my mother's father was a craftsman skilled at several trades who could do house wiring and metal-pipe plumbing. So I learned from them. But not JUST from them, as I had two years of formal lessons in woodwork and metalwork at school. I didn't have access to a lathe or a metal casting furnace at home, but a lot of the skills transferred.

Similarly what I was taught about literature and science at school helped me make sense of the books my parents had round the house.

Art and music were different: I had very litle art education at school, but there were a lot of books about it at home. I had a reasonable music education at school, but my parents weren't into it at all and I had to find my own way. For both it would have been better if school and home had not each been my sole resource.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:08 AM

'Ofsted does not routinely inspect independent schools in the way that it does maintained schools.
But by law, all independent schools must register with the Department for Education, and there is an inspection to see that they meet an adequate standard.

The government can issue a notice of complaint against any independent school, leading to it being struck off the register - and making it illegal for the school to continue teaching. '


In 1999 a critical report by the Office for Standards in Education (Ofsted), prompted the Education Secretary, David Blunkett, to file a formal "notice of complaint" against Summerhill School demanding that it make changes to remedy six specific issues
It complained that pupils were allowed "to mistake idleness for the exercise of personal liberty" and that non-attendance at lessons was the root cause of its educational shortcomings.

Summerhill appealed against three of the six demands to the independent schools tribunal, chaired by a retired circuit court judge.

The school's lawyer, Geoffrey Robertson QC, said the freedom exercised by the pupils whether or not to go into the classroom was not negotiable
"If you insist that it is negotiable, as Ofsted wants to make it, that will be the end of Summerhill." he argued

Counsel for the education secretary, Alison Foster, said he was not trying to close the school.
"He is not intent on enforcing compulsory lessons on Summerhill pupils nor on compelling the abandonment of the general philosophy of education propounded by A S Neill."

But, she added, the minister was entitled to regard a particular form of education as being too narrow.

The Ofsted report stated
"This report cannot and does not pass judgement on the unique philosophy on which Summerhill is founded. It focuses upon the issue of whether the quality of the education provided is effective in practice."

They concluded: "Summerhill is not providing an adequate education for its pupils.
"Whether the pupils make sufficient progress and achieve the standards of which they are capable is left to each child's inclination. As a result, those willing to work achieve satisfactory or even good standards, while the rest are allowed to drift and fall behind."

A management consultant Professor Ian Cunningham, called in by the school said the government would contravene the European Convention on Human Rights if it closed the school.

The complaints were withdrawn after the school agreed to encourage pupils to attend lessons and improve its teaching and assessment.

The decision to accept Mr Blunkett's statement was taken at a meeting of past and present Summerhillians at London's law courts

Summerhill's pupils and teachers said they had 'won'

Despite it's attitude to compusory attendance at lessons (Chino Otsuka did not attend lessons for two years after she started at Summerhill School in 1982, at the age of 10) lessons are often taught quite traditionally .
However, class sizes are small (often as few as 4-5 pupils per class) and individualized instruction is routinely available.

In 2003 the school had 14 staff and 91 pupils over half of whom came from outside the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:12 AM

"by law, all independent schools must register with the Department for Education, and there is an inspection to see that they meet an adequate standard.
The government can issue a notice of complaint against any independent school, leading to it being struck off the register - and making it illegal for the school to continue teaching. '"

Cheers Emma, question answered.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 11:21 AM

Schools can get it right, I wonder why so many don't try

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=armP8TfS9Is

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 12:31 PM

thanks for that link Tug the Cox - it's so unusual to discuss bereavement - or even acknowledge death with children in the UK.

From the introduction the quote

" the children begin to realize the importance of caring for their classmates."

reminded me of the experiences of the daughter of one of our members here and the pupils in her school described on another thread

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=123898
- describing a 13 year old school friend dignosed with leukemia

'They have a big crowd of friends and they are all hoping to go and visit her every week'

Not all state schools represent the "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here" version of Hell some would have us believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:01 PM

Sorry I misunderstood your last post, my fault! I thought you were having a strop. But then I know nothing of shanty talk.

As far as your lady singer is concerned, I'd find it tough to genuinely judge the vocals as good or whatever, as I found her to be a bit 'lost' a behind the drums.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:04 PM

Doh! IGNORE

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 02:11 PM

I'm a huge fan of Summerhill. I've never been there, but I read the book when I was younger. The high school I went to had some similarities to Summerhill during the time I was there, and I think that school may have saved my life.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 03:38 PM

the life and soul of all the parties and with by far the most mature outlook of any of us.

Not as good but the Woodcraft Folk have a similar effect on young people. A teacher at my daughters' school commented she could always tell the Woodcraft folk students.

I think it is the chance to talk in meetings and have their views respected that makes the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 03:46 PM

After high school (the one what was similar to Summerhill), I made an attempt at going to college (cut short by undiagnosed learning disabilities). The teacher in an English class was interested in an exchange between me and another student during class. He asked where we had gone to high school. We told him and it turned out we had gone to the same school. The teacher said he could always tell which of his students had gone to that particular high school. He said we were always highly articulate and also strongly individual and not very conformist.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 04:15 PM

not sure this will work but if it does.. as seen on facebook....LOL



http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/video/video.php?v=1212601907690

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 04:30 PM

It worked for me - I also posted it on Facebook!!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 04:35 PM

Too funny - if the Facebook link doesn't work for you try here

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 04:47 PM

I see the attitude in the automated message as being fairly typical of the problem. When schools (the supposed authority figure in the equation) not only participate in, but actually foster an adversarial relationship with parents and children, that doesn't help inspire those whith whom they are creating the adversarial relationship to want to work with them. It also shows that those in authority have a fairly high degree of contempt for those they are paid to serve.

I would never want to send my child to a school with that kind of attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 04:56 PM

Carol, check with snopes! FALSE!
This is the actual school -

'Maroochydore State High School Captain, Mark Pennini was recently honoured with an Order of Australia Student Citizenship Award.

Mark was one of only fourteen young Queenslanders to receive this prestigious award at a ceremony held recently in the Old Legislative Council Chamber at Parliament House, Brisbane. Mark received his award from the Hon Justice Margaret McMurdo AC, President, Court of Appeal, Supreme Court of Queensland. His proud parents Jennifer and Lou Pennini were also present at the awards ceremony The award was made in recognition of Mark's services to his school and community.

This is one of a number of awards to be bestowed on Mark this year. In March this year, Mark was a Queensland representative at the 2009 National Schools' Constitutional Convention in Canberra.'

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 05:00 PM

Carol, have you had your sense of humor surgically removed? I KNOW some of these parents. NOTHING is Their Darlings fault!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 05:05 PM

Wikipedia suggests it is a hoax so now we are all happy. I think it is hilarious. And it isn't real.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 05:07 PM

I meant to say:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroochydore_State_High_School

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 05:19 PM

Nice set up. Post something as if it were real, and if I voice an opinion about it, make fun of me for not figuring it out? I don't understand why someone would want to do that.


No, my sense of humor is very well developed, and perfectly intact. If there had been such a recorded message at a real school, regardless of whether or not schools had such experiences with students and parents, as the people who are in the position of authority and also as employees of the tax paying public, they have a responsibility to maintain a professional demeanor with the public they serve.


And if schools do actually experience these kinds of behaviors on the part of parents and students, I, personally, see that as an indictment of the system itself. If the system was effective, those kinds of behaviors would not be a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 05:27 PM

Carol I really had no idea if it was real or not - although I strongly suspected it wouldn't be - so I simply checked it out!

No one 'set you up' it was a joke that was shared is all - a bit like the ones about Sarah Palin and those banned books - remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 05:34 PM

Take a chill pill, Carol. It helps sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 06:01 PM

A teacher at my daughters' school commented she could always tell the Woodcraft folk students.

Yes, all that singing Red fly the banners O instead of Green grow the rushes is a bit of a giveaway.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 06:13 PM

I don't need a chill pill. I'll decide what I want to laugh about and what I do not. I would suggest a chill pill for those who can't handle that.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 06:34 PM

Yes, all that singing Red fly the banners O instead of Green grow the rushes is a bit of a giveaway.

Too right, that's the good thing about Woodcraft - no indoctrination of the young.....

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 06:52 PM

dave, i would have given you the credit of finding that vid, but didn't want you to be accused of making it, just to get at a certain someone.

take care all

jade x x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 07:08 PM

Is "messege" the Australian spelling or part of the joke?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 07:52 PM

I'm with Carol on the video. It's typical of the sneering attitude of those in education who see themselves as intellectually and socially superior to the parents of 'the little brats' they have to teach.

Over and again in here I've seen the derisory way that some in the system talk about 'parents'.

Parents are seen as, basically, a real pain in the arse...especially when it comes to secondary schools, where they're kept away as much as possible, apart from being useful to raise funds for the school.

But as far as 'knowing what's best for the child'...no, it's not considered to be the parents who know that, but the supercilious, holier-than-thou teachers.

REAL teachers work with parents and have respect for them, because they know that they, first and foremost, are the most important people in their children's lives, NOT those who teach in schools.

Somewhere along the line, some teachers got WAY too big for their boots, and WAY too puffed up with their own self importance.

I am 100% with Carol and her comments above..and nope, this does not mean I haven't got a sense of humour...it merely means that my brother, daughter and son were all damaged by pratty, insensitive people who just happen to work inside a school, as opposed to an office and who think they really are the bee's knees, when in actual fact some of them are the rat's arse.

Thank you..... :0)

Oh, and they could make a wonderful video where the children leave their own message on their own answer machine, within their own school...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:21 PM

I'm reminded of when 'Life of Brian' was first shown at our local cinema. The religious barmpots in sandwich boards haranguing the audience going in and out made the overall experience twice as funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:28 PM

Well, everyone knew that "Life of Brian" was fiction right from the start. That recorded message was presented as the truth here in this thread. Big difference. I wouldn't have had anything at all to say about it had I known it was a hoax

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 08:30 PM

Although I also have to say I don't understand the need to sneer at people who don't find it funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:27 PM

It is humor probably invented by the students themselves. No one is sneering at anyone. If I called my son's school and got that message I would probably be pressing every button just to see what came next.
Carol - I have met you twice. You are a beautiful sweet woman. Don't be afraid to share yourself with people. Let your defences down. I promise you - no one is ridiculing you. This U-tube addresses a universal problem. Imagine being a teacher and having to deal with a parent who defends their child's right to set fires in the Boy's Room. You either laugh or you cry.

A beloved teacher in my son's school showed up one day with his leg in a cast. His story was that he fell down the stairs. But he confided in me that a student had deliberately tripped him. He protected the student who the teacher felt was not in control when he tripped him. Lots of silly humor about his clumsiness - he was the gym teacher - to get him through the crisis and help the student see the wrong that he had done without harming his status in the school. No one was laughing at the teacher, his clumsiness or his broken leg. Laughter helps to deal with a situation.

I am not preaching, ridiculing, or even advising. It is a shame to me that you don't share yourself with the rest of the community here. If you honestly do not see the humor in that video, fine. But please believe that it in no way is meant to ridicule or hurt anyone. It is ridiuculous and thereby funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:31 PM

Sorry, I didn't realise anyone believed it was real..

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:33 PM

Well put, Sinsull.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 09:47 PM

The comparison to the religious barmpots looks like sneering.

I honestly don't know what is being meant by the exhortation for me to share myself. I've shared quite a lot of myself here in this thread when I have used my own experiences as background for some of the arguments I've made, and all I got from the one who thinks I should share more of myself was criticism for having done it.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:14 PM

The comparison to the religious barmpots looks like sneering.

It was vital to the plot.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:17 PM

Carol.
You have met me. I am a large woman.
Last week Kendall and Jacqui hosted a dinner party at their home with KT and her sister as well as Becca, Kendall's daughter.
Jacqui needed to share the leftovers. They were headed down to the Getaway and it was either share or throw them away.
Honest - this is going somewhere.
I got up and started rummaging through a closet looking for plastic storage bags. Jacqui is saying HEFTY! HEFTY! (the brand name). Becca says "That's not nice" as I turn to Jacqui and say "You bitch!" Maybe you had to be there but it was very funny. The joke was on me -I am HEFTY! But no one was ridiculing my weight. Everyone was laughing though. Sometimes the joke is on you and you have to accept it or miss out on the fun.
The Australian joke is really on the parents who fall into the various categories. Some really do and the teachers have to deal with them. Imagine the parent who insists that her son missed 32 days of classes because he has an ingrown toenail. That's the religious balmpot.Teachers have to deal with this stuff everyday. I had a neighbor whose son vandalized our property daily. We finally took videos of his antics to prove to his mother it was him. Her response? There is another boy in the neighborhood who looks just like my son and everyone confuses them. His picture in his clothes and she still protected him. Teachers go nuts with this kind of crap.

No one was trying to trap you into making a fool of yourself. Honest - no thought anyone would take it seriously.

We are a ridiculous lot. The whole world sneers at us - a bunch of over the hill folkies with their hand covering one ear while the other strums a banjo. We argue over the earliest instance of Barbara Allan and the true meaning of Ring Around The Rosie.

Enbrace your silly side. Laugh out loud at whatever you find funny. Or at least allow others to without tking offece,

SINS the Hefty

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:19 PM

Embrace
Taking

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:31 PM

Just for the record, I tried embracing my silly side, and fell over. I hope you have public liability insurance.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:35 PM

I repeat. The comparison to the people referred to as religious barmpots looks like a sneer. Just because one has a funny story to tell about their experience with sandwich bags doesn't mean the teller of the story knows what's in the minds of the other people who post in this thread, in particular, the one who made the comparison to the religious barmpots.

Now, having said that, I will also note that the person who made that comparison has also said they are sorry, and that they didn't know that anyone in the thread didn't know the recorded message was a hoax.

Here's another little heartwarming story:

Once there was a thread in the Mudcat in which people were offering their opinions about things. One of the people in the thread decided that she knew what was best for everyone else and she started telling other people in the thread what to do. Some of them didn't like it and they tried to get her to stop. But she didn't want to stop, so she kept doing it. Then one day, she realized she really didn't know what was best for anyone other than herself, and she realized that while it was normal for her to offer her opinions about the subjects being discussed in the thread, it was not emotionally healthy to think that she knew what was best for everyone else, and it was very intrusive and counterproductive for her to go around telling other people what to do. So she stopped doing that and everyone in the thread lived happily ever after.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:43 PM

As long as everyone lives happily ever after...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Oct 09 - 10:55 PM

Quite..

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 12:06 AM

i find myself in a quandry about this, see what you think.

i am all for freedom of speech, thoughts, and faith. only if your actions that are based on those thoughts etc. do not hurt anyone.

now can the same be said for what we teach children?

example: the god hates fags group in the US, would be perfectly within their rights to think that, if they were not picketing dead soldiers funerals and harrasing the family of said fallen soldier.
however when i know they are teaching thier kids that it makes me very angry.

so what we deem acceptable for adults to think for themselves and what we think is ok to teach children, in my case at least, are two very different things.

i have been thinking about this all day and still have not come up with anything that makes sense.

at what age are kids allowed to make up their own minds about things?

you see why i am confused?

censorship goes against everything i believe in but then so does filling young and impressionable kids heads with things i find distasteful.

dogmatic religion.
homophobia.
racism.
sexism.

the list goes on.

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 01:23 AM

The problem then comes with deciding what will be permissible and who will get to decide.

What if someone who thinks that gay people shouldn't be allowed to raise children were to be chosen to decide? This would not be outside the realm of possibility here in the US, depending on who got elected to the presidency and who controlled our Congress. They would say that if gay people are allowed to raise children, they will indoctrinate them into the gay lifestyle and the "gay agenda". There are many people who actually believe this in the US and they are very politically active.

The problem with limits on free speech is that the limits aren't always defined and enforced by the people with whom we personally agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:35 AM

Is it just me, or is this thread increasingly turning into all about "What Carol said" and "why Carol is WRONG" and "Why Carol needs to open up" and so-on?

Is this a thread about "Home Education in the UK", or is it about "Mudcat Educating CarolC"? I know Mudcat has a highly endearing Pastoral ethic. So for anyone really interesting in teaching poor benighted Carol "how to laugh again" (or whatever other 'support' she needs to generally grow and evolve into a happier more fulfilled and 'right about stuff', human being), maybe we could start a "Save Poor CarolC!" thread?

Sorry folk, couldn't resist... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:52 AM

PS I thought the phone message was thoroughly hysterical! Teachers I know go through that kind of stuff like that everyday, even to the point of dodging out of the staff room window to get away from highly aggressive parents who go to the school to "sort the school out".

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 05:01 AM

Yup, CS. Some schools in Manchester have had to adopt a "zero tolerance" approach as a result of violence and aggression towards teachers from parents. I suspect the home education equivalent would be zero tolerance to beating yourself up...

Coat. Got.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:45 AM

I've never been violent, or aggressive, to a wonderful teacher, only thanked God for them, silently.

I did however, learn to be assertive, at the age of 40, due to my daughter's headmaster.

He had told me she'd never set the world on fire...and he had left the children themselves to make their own way to Tavistock College, from their primary school in Horrabridge, via the normal bus service, which went through the village.

This was for the day when primary school pupils go to their next school for the day/week, so that they get to know it a little before they actually start in the new term..

I couldn't believe that he hadn't organised school coaches to take the children from their primary school over to Tavistock College.

Everyone was complaining about it, but as ever no-one did anything...

So, I went to see him.

I was a little nervous, because I was still 'conditioned' to quaking in my shoes when it came to teachers..they always 'being right an' all'...(Ha!)

I sat down and told him that he was wrong not to have organised this officially, as other schools seemed to do. He told me that many children had older brothers and sisters at school, and went in with them. I asked him what he did for the children who did NOT have siblings already there...and he stared at me.

I told him that this was a very important time in the lives of the children and it should all have been arranged correctly by the school to ensure as smooth a passage as possible.

At this point he started to interrupted me, and he kept doing so over and again, talking over me...

That was when I suddenly refused to back down...and I slammed my hand down on the arm of chair and told him to never interrupt me again, because he had no right to do that. I told him the buck stopped with him, and it was no good trying to weasel his way out of his responsibility, because every single one of those children were in his care, and it was during his school time as well. I wasn't interested in local authoritys, or excuses...because there were NO excuses.

He eventually backed down and organised a coach.....

Fast forward..........

My son, now 5 years old.......

I had refused to send him to school when he was just 4, because it was way too young. He is a summer baby and so would have been a very young 4...I asked if I could send him during the final term of that year, about half way through, just so that he could have a short time to get to know school, before he started in September, aged 5.

They agreed.

However, when I rang up to arrange this, I was told that because I'd not sent him at the start of the Reception Year, when he'd literally have just turned four, I would now have to wait until the Year 1 September term started.

I was fuming, because they renegaed on their word, but they were adamant. I presume I'd been a naughty parent and was therefore being made to pay the price.

Fast forward again.....

It's the first 'meet the teacher, see how your child's doing' day in Year One, a few months later...and I am sitting there listening to his teacher talk about him in glowing terms, saying how well he's settled in, how he gets on with everyone and what a happy child he is.....and I felt very proud of him. He was happy too, I knew that...

A week later I was walking down the road when someone called out to me...and I went over and spoke to her. She asked how my son was getting on as she'd heard he was having 'major problems'...?????

I stared at her, puzzled.

Then I told her that he was having no problems at all....

I then got to hear the story of how Mr. Idden, the headmaster, had been welcoming the new parents to the school, who had the next lot of 4 year olds...and he'd told them how important it was to send your child to school early. He then went on to tell them 'the story' of my son...telling them that because I'd held him back a year, he was now struggling terribly, both work wise and socially...

The air turned blue!

I went straight home, rang the school and spoke to him...and I told him that at the EXACT time I was hearing, from one of his teachers, how well my son was doing, what a pleasure he was...he was in another roon holding him up as an example of what could happen if you were a bad parent and wanted to keep your child away from school until they turned 5!

I was bloody angry!!!

He knew he'd made a FATAL mistake and fell over himself to apologise!!!

The ONLY reason he'd said what he did was because he wanted the money for yet more 4 year olds, that the Government was then paying, to drag more and more little kids in, WAY YOO EARLY!

What a complete bastard!

He grovelled....and grovelled, but I told him where to stick his apology and that's when we moved away!

Absolutely disgusting way for any headmaster to behave! It took the parents years to get rid of him, but they did, eventually.

He went to work for OFSTED!

HA!!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 08:11 AM

That really is a good post, Lizzie. Factual, accurate and verifiable. Objective rather than subjective, calm , collected and none of the generalisations or implications of some of your earlier ones. No-one can dispute that post and surely you can see that when you make unverifiable and incorrect assetions, as you have, they will dispute them. Nothing to do with you as a person. Just some of your poorer thought out arguments. Your last post, like the thread about the bath handles, shows just what you are capable of and I know I open myself up to allegations of trying to control things whan I say this but, honestly, I am not. Can you not just think before you post? Maybe type it up in Word or notepad and post it two hours later? It could save you a lot of wrangling in future! Keep the passion - drop the crap:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 08:45 AM

i couldn't agree more with the post above!!!

i don't blame you for taking him to task, for breaking his word when you have gone out of your way to ask them to take him in later, or for him using your son as a scare tactic for getting more funding.

i want to ask you questions without you going off at me.

was there no other school he could have gone to in the area?

when you did move, did he go to school and thats when he had problems?

if he was having problems, say with bullies, how long did you leave it before taking him out of school?

as for the freedoms of thought, i still haven't had any brainwaves as to what is acceptable to teach children and what is not.
maybe this is why school is such a good mixing pot as teachers and parents are on the board and both work out how to tackle this issue.

have a great day everyone

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 09:01 AM

Wow. That headmaster had to have been on very shaky legal grounds. Did he even have the right to discuss your son's progress with anyone other than you and his teachers? Ethically it was just wrong and more than a bit cruel.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 01:33 PM

If parent anger with teachers, principals, and headmasters is such a chronic problem, I would say that taking a good hard look at the teachers, principals, and headmasters is needed, and/or taking a good hard look at the system that gives them their marching orders. If the system was working, they would not have this problem.

The fact that this problem is such a big one and is so endemic is an indictment of the system itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 01:59 PM

Here is an example of one school system that is doing precisely that, and is getting good results even in terms of parental involvement...

http://fora.tv/2009/07/05/Transforming_the_System_An_Interview_with_Michelle_Rhee#fullprogram

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: paula t
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:43 PM

Lizzie,
I don't blame you for being angry about the attitude at that school.as a teacher,I can't believe that primary school children were left to use a public service bus when "learning the ropes" for secondary school.Our year 6 children have 4 days at their new school in summer term 2. They go on the school bus which is provided for our village secondary school children. This is part of the "rehearsal" and therefore a necessary part of the week. However, this bus takes them right into the school grounds and is not used by the general public.

If travelling on public transport was the recognised way to get to that school, then I believe a member of staff should have wished to accompany them to school to ensure they knew what to do and were safe.

I taught at another village primary school which fed into a secondary school where the children travelled between sites at breaktime.Every year we took the year 6 pupils to the town and showed them where and how to cross the roads safely. We could not have felt happy if we had not prepared our children in this way.

Please don't let this awful experience colour your view of all schools . The vast majority of us take our responsibilities for "Our children"(yes, they really do feel like our own children) very seriously indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 02:49 PM

The problem is indeed a real one Carol although probably not 'endemic'

The UK, a generation ago, went through a socio-political period often referred to as the 'me generation' in which it was advocated 'there was no such thing as society' 'There are individual men and women, and there are families' which was generally interpreted as people should look to their own interests and those of their family
first

Others have described other characteristics including -

'Generation It's-Not-My-Fault – This starts early when GenMe kids discover how often their shortcomings in school are blamed on their teachers.'

Some very real examples of this were provided by Mary Bousted, general secretary of the Association of Teachers and Lecturers
She cites one mother who blamed staff when her 14-year-old daughter became pregnant and another when she discovered that her 16-year-old son Jack was smoking cannabis
'Their distress causes them to hit out. Jack has been led astray by his school friends.
More should have been done to educate him about the dangers of drug abuse.
They threaten to go to the local press to tell their story.'

Teachers are becoming increasingly concerned that they are being held responsible for aspects of children and young people's lives which are completely beyond their control she said.

"One of the key reasons for the standstill, the inspectors concluded, is that children are coming to school with poor skills in speaking and listening. The inspectors exhort schools to do more to improve their pupils' oral skills, but do not question why it is that pupils are starting school unable to converse and to listen effectively.

Just what is happening in the homes of these children? Why are they coming to school developmentally delayed?
Children learn how to take turns in a conversation, how to ask questions, how to react to what others say, how to follow instructions, how to tell jokes through doing all these things.
They will not learn how to behave as social beings if they are stuck in front of the TV for hours every day. They need their parents to show an interest in them and to spend time with them, helping them to play with their peers and to learn the rules of social behaviour.

Too many children start school without the social and verbal skills to be able to take part in lessons and to behave well.

Too many are starting school unable to hold a knife and fork, unused to eating at a table, unable to use the lavatory properly.

These children will not be living in absolute poverty.
The majority will be living in homes with televisions, computers and PlayStations.
What too many of them do not have are adults who are prepared to give their time and energy doing that difficult, but most essential of jobs: raising their children properly.

I've been accused of wanting to ban television in children's bedrooms, when for many parents a television in every room is the marker that they have made it and that they have provided well for their children. It comes to something, I think, when the mark of good parenting is the provision of a television which, in too many cases, becomes a substitute for parenting - a constant pacifier which suppresses interaction in the family.

We are in danger of becoming a nation of families living separate lives under one roof. The bedroom, once a place to sleep, has become the living space for the young. Spending hours in front of computer screens, on social networking sites or immersed in computer games, children and young people spend little time with their parents and their siblings.
Parents are unable to monitor just what their children are watching. Teachers report that many pupils are exhausted at the start of the school day, tired out from viewing unsuitable programmes or sitting in front of the computer screen until late into the night or the early hours of the morning."

I have certainly seen this example of 'family life' and worse in the homes of aquaintances and could just as easily quote appalling examples of parenting as Lizzie quotes an example of a primary school failing in its duty to organize private transport for their school leavers.

(e.g. a parent ringing a school in front of a child to claim he was sick because she couldn't get him out of bed after being up all night watching videos in his locked bedroom where he demanded his meals to be served)

Parents and teachers need to work together.
Parents are responsible for setting boundaries for their children's behaviour and sticking to those boundaries when the going gets tough.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:10 PM

Spot on, Em.

When I walk my son to school I see daily examples of parental irresponsibility and "me first, sod the rest of you" behaviour (e.g. the parents who drive their kids the few hundred yards to school and insist in parking in the no parking zone in front of the gates, putting other kids in danger). In his recent book "Adventures on the High Teas", broadcaster and journalist Stuart Maconie argued that when Princess Diana died a cork came out of the bottle and we haven't figured a way of putting it back in yet. This coupled with the legacy of the anti-society ideology of the Thatcher years, which Labour did too little to counter, has left us with a whole raft of society who don't seem to understand the value of community, which has been replaced with officially sanctioned outbreaks of mass emoting...

Thread drift, I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:11 PM

But we have been told that people who are educated in the schools are more socially and emotionally balanced than people who are home schooled. Those parents are the products of the school system themselves. So which one is it? Do the schools do a better job of socializing people or don't they? Because the behavior of those parents certainly doesn't support that argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:16 PM

Carol, do you believe people are how they are purely because of school? Do family, politics, ideology, the media, peers, the societal norms they absorb, etc not also have a bearing?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:18 PM

Yes, to all Emma's post above.

"Too many are starting school unable to hold a knife and fork, unused to eating at a table, unable to use the lavatory properly.
These children will not be living in absolute poverty.
The majority will be living in homes with televisions, computers and PlayStations."

And there's the rub. It's genuinely not 'poverty' that generates this, it's a form of neglect, born of willful apathy, or willful ignorance. I tend to blame the State for inducing it, in as much as the State has become Uber-Parent and therefore directly responsible for you failing to wipe your own fucking arse! IMO this country could probably suffer a wee bit more Anarchy for healthy balance (I will for now withhold my control-state conspiricy theories..*smile*).

Anyhoo, asides apart.. Maybe FolkieDave will resign my direct personal experience to 'mere anecdotes', but having grown-up in the Seventies on a rough council housing estate, where the 'scummy mummy' (gotta love the vernacular!) was already prevalent even then, and having immediate family still just down the road myself who now live quite surrounded by these kinds of 'non-parenting' families, it is a very real problem in the UK today.

According to R4's Women's Hour (a highly sane and moderate voice in the UK media - at least I tend to think so), there are now increasing numbers of children who are going to school who are literally incapable of controlling their own bodily functions because their parents have failed to even teach them how to use the loo (meaning they never bothered taking them out of nappies), has now become a problem for teachers. That's just far, far too much for teachers to be expected to take on.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 03:20 PM

I'm not the one who said that schools produce people who are more socially balanced than home schools. It seems to me that people want to have it both ways. They want to say that the schools are doing a better job than home schooling environments can, even while they are complaining about the results of the environment they say is better. They can't have it both ways. Either it's better or it's not.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 04:05 PM

You see, I think you're misrepresenting people's views. For example, I haven't argued against home schooling, but at least one poster (and I don't mean you, Carol) takes every opportunity she gets to slag off school education (whilst then protesting that she doesn't!). This means when people challenge her views, the assumption is made that the same people are also anti-home schooling. School is only part of what makes us what we are - home and all the other stuff we are bombarded with daily also shapes us. I guess if home is also school it narrows down the range of influences and ideas that shape our adult selves. If the parents have a decent value base and are good teachers/mentors the kids have a good start. If they are using their kids as guinea pigs in a social experiment around extreme religious, political or social views or if they don't have the ability to pass on knowledge and skills, the end result will be very different. So - depending on parents' value base and teaching skills - home schooling can be a wonderful opportunity, neglect, systematic brainwashing, or none of the above. Likewise, school experiences can vary hugely depending on the culture of the school, the competency of the teachers and how far the parents and the school are willing to work together for the benefit of the child. However, no school exists in a vacuum. This, I feel, is generally a good thing.

I'd also add, as a parent of a child in a state school whose needs aren't being met as well as they might be, that I am by no means a slavish supporter of everything a school does. I strongly believe that parents should have an advocacy role. I also strongly believe that how they exercise this role should be exemplary and I would support any measures to protect teachers from violence or aggression by out-of-control parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 04:13 PM

Some people in the thread are saying that the home schooling environment cannot do as good of a job of socializing kids as schools outside the home can. The behavior of these parents undermines their arguments in that regard.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 04:17 PM

And I say that because home schooling environments can and have produced people who are far more socially ept and balanced than the parents who are being described in this thread. So we can say with confidence that both environments are capable of producing people who are well balanced, socially, and that whether or not this will be the result will depend on the quality of the school and home schooling environment. Which makes neither environment automatically any better than the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 04:19 PM

emma and crow sister have it spot on!!!

i can tell you that my nephews are part of this problem.
it is now nanny and grandad who are teaching them to sit down to eat, ater 5 years of trying that is.
these kids don't have a bed time, they have a time where they are sent upstairs.
when the boys were born, they were farmed out to pretty much anyone. they still smoked in the house.
then my neice was born, no one was allowed near her and they only smoked by the back door.
now she has grown up abit, she is as farmable as the two boys.

none of them say please and thankyou, they have no respect for their house, or anyone elses.
all they really want to do is sit in front of their games consoles, which is ok for me as i am a sort of grown up.

i have to admit their parents are getting better now, because they take them swimming and football and cricket, but when at home, they are pretty much left to it.

they hardly ever get taken out for the day by their parents, thats nanny and grandads job.
even when they take them to petting farms, they get bored, because anyone who has ever played x box, will understand games move alot faster than real life.

even when they were younger, we couldn't buy them board games or things appropraite for their age as they had out grown them.

sorry if no one finds this relevent, but it has bugged us for years, what they are doing to these kids.

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 04:29 PM

I haven't argued against home schooling either, just the need for introducing registration in order that no child is 'under the radar' and a leval of monitoring that the child is, in fact, receiving the basic standard of education and that the parent does have the knowledge and skills required for the task - as is the practice in most other 'devoloped' countries.

Like other posters however I do have some reservations that home schooling can restrict a child's social contacts and focus their socialization into very narrow channels to reflect the parents own 'extreme religious, political or social views' in some instances.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Oct 09 - 05:00 PM

We have as a family owned a TV set.

"Does that mean you don't have a video either?" a student once said to me!!

I suppose it would be a DVD nowadays!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Peace
Date: 08 Oct 09 - 02:21 PM

The role of schools in the socialization of children is a bit glamorized in this thread, imo. Fact is, schools are meant to control populations. "In time the savage beast doth bear the yoke."

Having read, researched and written about Canada's 'history of education', one thing is clear: the purpose of public education is to control the masses. That means us.

Public schools over the past few years have begun again to play the National Anthem each day, and the Catholic system in Alberta has brought in "The Lord's Prayer" each day, too. (Note: in Alberta the two tines of the Public System are Public and Separate. School Districts that have a majority of Catholic voters in them will subsequently be called the Public Board. If a School District has a majority of non-Catholics, the Catholic Board will be called the Separate School and the other the Public. Both Public and Separate are funded with public money.)

I have seen more effective socialization happening at recess than usually happens in the classroom.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 08:05 AM

And with those wise words above this post, from a Wise Ol' 'Natural' Teacher, for whom I have the **utmost** respect, I think this thread should now draw to a close.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 08:13 AM

LOLLERS Lizzie - it had already done so, at least until you just went and freshed it back up to the top... ;-D

Otherwise, gotta second exactly Em's sentiments in her last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: jeddy
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 08:19 AM

peace, kids wouldn't have recess or playtime, if they were not in school. they would be able to play with the kids that live near them yes, but is that enough?

folk festivals over here are a prime example of what intergration can do.
we would not have met the wonderful people we have if we stayed close to home. not that i am knocking the locals round here.

would home schooling encourage kids to explore further afield, if they did not have to travel to see their friends?

would they see different ways of family life if they did not go to each others houses?

school is definately not just for education, it is about finding out who you are around others.

TCA

jade x x x

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 09 - 01:51 PM

As the example of the folk festival shows, schools are hardly the only way for children to have experiences of socializing in the wider world. And as has been pointed out several times already, home schooling parents seek out opportunities for their kids to socialize in other contexts. For instance, the many home schooling associations in which many home schooling families get together collectively so that their children can socialize with many other home schooling children. And there are also many opportunities outside of the schooling environment, such as swim clubs, little league baseball, soccer leagues, boy scouts and girl scouts, and church/synagogue/mosque environments.

It's a non-argument and will remain a non-argument, no matter how many times people bring it up.