BS: Muslim prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 05:33 AM

Jim you said,
""Is on street grooming by groups mainly a crime of BPs?"
Yes where have I claimed it wasn't?"

You tell us what you meant.

Steve you say that explanation is rubbish, and you are entitled to your opinion.
That explanation has been put forward by Straw, Cryer, Shuffiq, Ahmed and Allibhai-Brown, but they could all be wrong.
I have said that I have been convinced.

No one has come up with an alternative yet, have you Steve, Lox, Jim...

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:56 AM

Absolute rubbish, Keith. If it comes from "custom and culture," explain to me why 99.9% of Pakistani males don't do it. I should like to submit that, as the overwhelming majority don't do it, it is in their "custom and culture" not to groom young girls for sex. So if it isn't "custom and culture," and not in their DNA, what is it then, Keith? I am puzzled.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:42 AM

Sorry Keith - a quick clarification and then I really will leave you in peace.
"Given that this crime is mainly committed by BPs...."
Are you talking about regionally, nationally....?
Where exactly are British Pakistanis the main culprits in the crime of grooming and raping young girls?
I would like to have your answer framed and hung on the wall.
Oh - and is that the verdict of you all?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 04:17 AM

"do you or do you not think that the propensity for grooming young girls for sex is more predominant in the DNA of Pakistani males than in other groups? "

Of course not.
It has not even been suggested in any of the material I have produced.
I have quoted people who believe it comes from custom and culture, and said I have been convinced by that argument.

Given that this crime is mainly committed by BPs, and given that the above explanation has been denounced as racist, can we have an alternative please.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 03:54 AM

Agreed, Jim, which is why I dropped out some while ago. I note now that my name is still being dredged up by one of the chief ante-uppers (I want to be in the red corner, please, if that nasty lot are in the blue - appropriate in a way I can almost put my finger on). Let me ask Keith or any of his blue corner henchpersons - do you or do you not think that the propensity for grooming young girls for sex is more predominant in the DNA of Pakistani males than in other groups?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 03:34 AM

No answers, no discussion, no progress. just rather childish and unpleasant name calling and evasive repetition.
I think we've gone just about as far as we are going to.
I'll leave you to it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 03:31 AM

"Lox, Don, Cobra, You have heaped vile abuse on me for saying what Jim now says. Some response is called for."

There are always PM's for anyone genuinely wishing to discuss personal arguments further? Just a thought. Otherwise there probably isn't much scope for taking this topic any further.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 03:24 AM

Lively, you have been open minded about the evidence, and not resorted to name calling at those with differing views.
There is (was?) a group here who were blinkered and full of abuse.
You will agree you are not one of them.

Jim, the posts I quoted show that you did deny that it is mainly a crime of BPs and you called me racist for putting up evidence of that.

Now that you have opened your eyes, we would all like to hear your view of WHY it is mainly a crime of BPs.

Lox, Don, Cobra, You have heaped vile abuse on me for saying what Jim now says.
Some response is called for.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:11 AM

"The descriptions we have come across in this have been respectable married men and men linked by family rather than just criminality."

And the Krays loved their Mum and hob-nobbed with celebrities, I don't know what this tells us more broadly about English culture however? As for family links, as far as I'm aware that's not exactly uncommon in gang culture, particularly in more deprived areas where petty crime can become the norm among groups who have been otherwise disenfranchised from fulfilling the economic and material aspirations of society at large.

A quite blunt response to "why do they do it" is possibly "because they can" and this is where I see the particular method (not crime type) of on-street grooming coming in. It seems clear enough to me, from what I've read on the topic, that there is a general consensus among commentators (including moderate and Muslim voices) that this has everything to do with a "culture of silence" or taboo that has arisen around crimes that have particular racial elements. And it is this taboo, which has led to a terrible failure to protect innocent children from systematic sexual exploitation over some decades buy a large network of very efficient sexual predators.

I don't know what can be done about this, other than to try to begin openly discussing it, without exercising prejudices, aggressive "knee-jerk" reactions, political agendas (be they left or right), without the wielding of personal axes and especially without the hurling of personal abuse. I actually think the girls being abused are worthy of this.

PS Mike, with respect, I'd prefer not have my views pigeonholed in a "my side" v's "your side" style standoff. As you may appreciate, particularly in respect of my last paragraph, my views are my own and do not belong to any perceived side in this umm 'debate'.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 05:31 PM

Lox. Don. Cobra.
Jim says,
""Is on street grooming by groups mainly a crime of BPs?"
Yes"

Do I still need to convince you?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM

Lively,
", I believe it may be more accurate to speak in terms of a particular hybrid British Pakistani 'criminal sub-culture'"

I am sure there is truth in this, but every culture has its criminal sub culture.

The descriptions we have come across in this have been respectable married men and men linked by family rather than just criminality.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 03:51 PM

"Then it is an impression he has given everybody on this thread (the great majority) who have spoken up against him," sez Jim·····

You, Jim; + Steve, Don.T & Stinkilox ----

& in the blue corner ~~ Brian, Ake, Lively, me ~~ where exactly are your 'everybody' (hastily corrected to 'the great majority)?

You are floundering, Jim. You would do well to stop digging.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 03:29 PM

"Designating the procuring and marketing of underage girls as 'Muslim' or 'British Pakistani' or any secific racial or cultural group, predominantly or otherwise, is as racist as it was when it was used against the Irish and the West Indian communities in the past. "

"So what have we got - a mish-mash of hearsay evidence that some Pakistanis may be involved in prostitution in some parts of the North of England - no cultural connection and no documentary proof whatever to back these statements up. "

"My concern is, and remains, that accusations of a crime were being made, without proof, against a single national/religious (bit of an ambiguity there as well) community,"

"Is anybody claiming that the result you have come up with is only to be found in the Asian community? That would be racist and stupid."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 02:51 PM

I am very surprised that you accept that on street grooming by groups is mainly a crime of BPs.
Am I alone in believing that you denied it?
I am sorry I got it wrong but posts like this were misleading;

""All the people listed said it is a problem specific to BPs."
Are you for real? Grooming and pimping specific to Pakistanis??"

"all the people listed" were talking about on street grooming, and so was I.

We should not have been arguing.
I am surprised that you dismiss the explanation given by so many, including BPs, but I would not have made an issue of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 02:04 PM

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 02:02 PM

"Yes, Jim; and an 'impression' is exactly what it is, not any sort of accurate extrapolation from anything that has been said."
Then it is an impression he has given everybody on this thread (the great majority) who have spoken up against him - first reasonably, then in anger, and finally walking away in disgust.
"Nobody else is."
Yes he is - it is he who has claimed a 'cultural' link between abuse and British Pakistani culture - surely you don't want me to put up the quote again
Off for the evening; I await with interest to see if he provides any proof of his accusations, as requested, but maybe you on do that on his behalf?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 01:15 PM

"the volume and content of your postings leaves me with the impression that you are attempting to present a sordidpicture of the Pakistani populatio in Britain."

Yes, Jim; and an 'impression' is exactly what it is, not any sort of accurate extrapolation from anything that has been said.
...

"We are talking about smearing whole communities with 'cultural' labels"

No WE are not, Jim; YOU are. Nobody else is. And it isn't what anyone is actually doing, except in your 'impressions'.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 01:05 PM

"Is on street grooming by groups mainly a crime of BPs?"
Yes where have I claimed it wasn't? (please answer)
"To get you to accept that is the only reason I put up all those quotes."
I don't believe you - the volume and content of your postings leaves me with the impression that you are attempting to present a sordidpicture of the Pakistani populatio in Britain.
"If you did not deny the experience of every witness I put up, and every bit of hard evidence"
Where did I do this - please answer - and all the other requests I made for examples to your accusations of 'my agenda' and 'my denials' in your previous post.
Your continuing evasions are exactly what makes me believe you are working to some sort of agenda, such as "I do not see a need to be sensitive when talking about child rapists". We are talking about smearing whole communities with 'cultural' labels, not 'child rapists', which we all deplore.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 11:45 AM

OK Jim, straight answer please.
Is on street grooming by groups mainly a crime of BPs?

To get you to accept that is the only reason I put up all those quotes.
I do not see a need to be sensitive when talking about child rapists, which I acknowledge most BPs are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 11:15 AM

'Then how am I supposed to debate?'
With a degree of sensitivity and knowledge the subject requires, which you obviously don't posess, with an awareness of the consequences of misrepresenting the subject (which was warned about in one of your own examples and which you dismissed as 'a typical Guardian headline') and without the 'agenda' the number and nature of your postings and your outrageous 'cultural' analysis carries with it.
"precious dogma."
What precious dogma - I believe your contribution to this thread paints a grotesque and distorted view of the British-Pakistani population, one projected continually by organisations like the BNP. Exposing that view as the oft repeated lie that it is, is my only agenda.
"You still deny it"
Where do I deny it - I challenged your 'impeccible sources' claim, I don't believe impeccible sources on the question of race exist, at least certainly not among politicians. As I keep repeating and you keep ignoring the reseach simply hasn't been carried out on this subject I have neither questioned nor accepted anything your sources have had to say; if anybody has done that, it is you who passed off the warning of one of them as 'a typical Guardian headline'. - I simply don't know the FULL facts any more than you do. You are still unable to produce one scrap qualitative or quantitive documentation on the events described - how do they represent the Pakistan population or its culture, as you have claimed they do?
"And that makes me racist?"
The volume and nature of your postings and the conclusions you appear to draw from your handful of examples is what makes you a racist.
"If you did not deny the experience of every witness I put up, and every bit of hard evidence"
Where did I do this?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 09:12 AM

Then how am I supposed to debate?
Obviously you would prefer I did not challenge your precious dogma.

We started to discuss this major news story, and Lox and later you said it was not true.

So I post a quote from a reputable person whose experience is that it is true.
You still deny it, so I find another, and so on.

And that makes me racist?

If you did not deny the experience of every witness I put up, and every bit of hard evidence, I would not keep putting up more.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 08:21 AM

"No, it is amassed evidence for the fact of this issue."
No it isn't, it is a selection of a handful of incidents, unquantified and unqualified - we have no idea if they are even representitive of the areas in which they occurred, never mind of the Pakistani communities in Britain - we have no idea how they fit into British life whatever. If you have any information on this, please present it; you haven't so far.
The classic technique of racism is to take examples of the worst behaviour of members of immigrant communities and present them as typical, leaving us with the impression that this is how all immigrants behave.
The sheer weight alone of your postings (I nearly wrote examples, but in fact they are very few, just repeated over and over again as a mantra) would be enough to leave us with this impression, but you have compounded this with your claim that this behaviour is the result of British Pakistani culture. That, for me, is what makes your stance racist.
I have never claimed that the incidents described never happened, any more than I would claim that the same behaviour is not present in every other cultural group in Britain, including the indigenous population.
I do say that it is racist to present it, as in any way typical of the Pakistani communities, as you persistanly have throughout this thread.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Brian May
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 07:53 AM

Oh careful, I nearly got my head ripped off by quoting anything from the Daily Mail.

It seems there are those who vet which reports they habitually agree or disagree with . . .

Not that I particularly give a rat's **** either way of course.

Interesting I've still not got one response to the question, why do you think there is prejudice amongst the rank and file of the population against (radical) Muslims.

I still laugh at the smears of racial bigotry aimed at me, especially when you look at the definition of such terms and then look at what the Muslim extremists openly and publically state. And I'M the one accused - no sense of the ridiculous some people out there.

Just for the record, I am against ANYONE of ANY religion, of ANY colour, of ANY political persuasion, of ANY nationality that seeks to disinherit me and mine by violent means.

If THAT makes me a racist bigot, then I am proud to be so.

What is nice to see, is I have some well educated and articulate allies. Well done.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 07:27 AM

Just read this in the Daily Mail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1363772/Muslim-extremist-burned-poppies-Armistice-Day-fined-just-50.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 06:06 AM

"It is a picture of the Pakistani communities in Britain as presented by Keith throughout this thread"

No, it is amassed evidence for the fact of this issue.

Are you on my side now?
Thanks for your support.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 05:56 AM

"politically motivated, doctrinaire, uncharacteristically dense"
For the reasons of accuracy and equity, I didn't claim otherwise. I may well be placing yours and Keith's outlook under the same heading, but there is no danger of my confusing your postings.
"I can't see what your recent long litany of discrete extracts from Keith's posts is intended to prove."
It is a picture of the Pakistani communities in Britain as presented by Keith throughout this thread - nothing more nor less. Tell us it is not.
"You say "racist" because you have nothing else to say."
Then once again you are not reading what others are posting. What I have said may be wrong, but I have said something - go read it. You appear to have the affliction of not seeing what you don't agree with.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 05:52 AM

I too am bemused at Jim's long post.

Are you saying Jim that I was wrong to provide those quotes?
They are from reputable sources and very relevant to the discussion.

Should some kind of censorship be imposed Jim?
Please explain your thinking here.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 04:52 AM

Jim: purely for reasons of accuracy and equity, I must remind you that "politically motivated, doctrinaire, uncharacteristically dense", which you appear to quote as words used to you by Keith, in fact came from me.

I stand by them. Sorry.

While on, otherwise probably shouldn't bother, I can't see what your recent long litany of discrete extracts from Keith's posts is intended to prove, or what purpose it is supposed to serve whatever.


Regards ~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 04:40 AM

"The people giving an explanation based on culture"

As link I posted previously comments, I believe it may be more accurate to speak in terms of a particular hybrid British Pakistani 'criminal sub-culture' to be found in some cities.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 04:17 AM

Empty abuse.
You say "racist" because you have nothing else to say.

The people saying there is an issue with BPs and this crime include BPs and famous anti racists, yet you call me racist for quoting them

Empty abuse.

The people giving an explanation based on culture also include BPs and famous anti racists, yet again you call me racist for accepting their explanation in the complete absence of any other provided by you or Lox.

Empty abuse because you have nothing else to offer.

You can keep posting here, but you have nothing to post.
Do you Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 04:13 AM

Despite warnings from one of his own sources, of racist attempting to make political capital of some ofthe findings, this is a selection from around a quarter of Keith's postings on this thread.
It is the picture Keith presents to us of the Pakistani community in Britian today - will get round to the rest of his postings later.
Jim Carroll

The on street grooming of under age girls by groups for the purpose of rape.
on-street grooming and rape of children in some areas
They win the confidence of children and then rape them.
Gang rape them whenever they feel like it.
child raping gangs.
Pakistani men specifically targeting Hindu and Sikh girls.
Targeted sexual offences and forced conversions of Hindu and Sikh girls
Islamic extremists view all 'non believers' as legitimate targets,
first romantically coaxed and later intimidated and converted by Muslim men.
Pakistani heritage men...who target vulnerable young white girls...they see these young women, white girls who are vulnerable, some of them in care ... who they think are easy meat."
Young Muslim men have been boasting about seducing the Kaffir (unbeliever) women.
the on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16 by groups of men.
gangs working together at it to rape children on a vast scale.
the grooming and rape of children
It is not being a Pakistani which causes potential sexual repression in these men. It is their Muslim upbringing
criminal practice of forced marriages
a connection between forced marriages and the Pakistani gangs in the north of England
British-born Pakistani men are too often forced into loveless marriages with cousins from abroad and suggested this encouraged them to seek out these young girls.
young girls and women handed over to cousins in Pakistan or to men they have never seen in Bangladesh and India.
Some Asian husbands trapped in loveless, dead relationships become -frustrated, their desires emotionally distorted.
Sex, for them, is not reciprocal or an act of consent. It is taken as a right, regardless of what their wives — or indeed, those young girls they prey on
her husband now has a 13-year-old white 'girlfriend
he too used to prey on young white girls.
looking for easy sex with white girls
savage sexual and physical abuse and emotional persecution meted out to rebellious sons.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 03:24 AM

"Jim it is very cruel to say you are going and then to come back, as full of empty abuse as ever."
Keith - stop being pathetic.
As much as you would wish it otherwise, I will come back whenever I feel like it - sorry to have trespassed on your comfort zone.
Whether my postings are 'full of empty abuse' or not is there to be judged; I have not chosen to call anybody 'doctrinaire', 'politically motivated' and 'uncharacteristically dense' or even 'full of empty abuse' - that is abuse at its most empty as far as I am concerned.
Your 'war of attrition' technique, here, as elsewhere, encourages people to continue even though we have long abandoned the idea that you might actually be reading what others have written - a common accusation aimed at you, on this and other threads.
This is not your thread, anybody who wishes to can join in, and as far as I am concerned, racism is far too important a subject to be left to you and yours.
Long may people continue, even though some of us feel we would rather be a million light years away.
"The solution is simple. Separation of Church and State."
Amen to that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 03:13 AM

Anecdotal maybe, but it fits the pattern only too well.

Cryer says she failed to persuade the police to act as long ago as 92, from memory, and I assume she was mainly dealing with white victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 02:58 AM

anon GUEST below, was not me by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 02:50 AM

With reference to the racial aspect, it might be worth noting that I've read several (with the caveat that they are of course anecdotal) comments online from Sikhs who broadly maintain that Pakistani gangs were grooming Sikh girls before they began to target white working class girls.

Some comments I've read maintain that Pakistani gangs only began specifically targeting white working class girls, after being confronted by Sikh vigilante gangs who organised themselves to combat the crime back in the eighties and nineties.

An interesting alternative perspective on the problematic issue of 'racism' which appears to pervade this issue, might be found from some members of the Sikh community who feel that the police only took an interest in these particular crimes, once white girls were being targeted rather than Asian and black girls.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 01:20 AM

Stringsinger.
"It becomes an absurdity to claim that
any gang represents an ethnic culture or nationality in its totality."

Obviously true Stringsinger, but no one in the 1167 post on this thread has claimed that so what is your point?!


"Gangs are criminals and are not limited to any culture or nationality."
Again trite, obvious and pointless Stringsinger.

We have been discussing a very specific crime.
The on street grooming of under age girls by groups for the purpose of rape.
The evidence is that the groups ARE overwhelmingly of one culture.

Unless you have any actual evidence to the contrary.
Do you Stringsinger?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 05:54 PM

Regarding gangs. These organizations aren't representative of any culture but may be associated with the criminal elements of that culture. It becomes an absurdity to claim that
any gang represents an ethnic culture or nationality in its totality.

Criminals come in all shapes, cultures, sizes and behavior.

Prejudice based on race, culture, economic level, or of any kind does nothing to
identify and isolate criminal behavior.

Prejudice in general is a shutting off of a mental capacity to evaluate people correctly.

Gangs are criminals and are not limited to any culture or nationality.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 05:36 PM

OK, Guest 999, here's what I think. The solution is simple. Separation of Church and State.
Let people do their religion as they wish provided they honor this simple but great idea
of democracy. I don't agree with any religion but they have a right to practice it as long as it doesn't step on other's rights. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM

Poster is akenaton
As far as I can see, not one victim.....was muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 03:14 PM

Don,
""Cultural Paedophile Theory" (and it is nothing more than a theory) espoused with such relish by yourself?"

It is not espoused by me.
I am not in a position to hypothesise about it.
These people all suggested a cultural explanation.
Straw, Cryer, Shufiq, Allibhai-Brown and Ahmed.
Shufiq and Ahmed are BPs.
Allibhai Brown is Muslim and half Pakistani.
Are they not better informed than you, Jim, Lox and Cobra put together?
If they are not racists, how can reporting their views make me a racist?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 03:06 PM

Jim it is very cruel to say you are going and then to come back, as full of empty abuse as ever.

Don,
"possibility that these men are a Paedophile Gang, which happens to be mainly Pakistani simply because like gravitates to like, and men trust their own community more than outsiders."

The study covered 17 SEPARATE court cases over 14 years.
The witnesses talk of hundreds and hundreds of victims in several cities over many years.
It is silly to imagine it is just one gang.
Think before you call me a liar please.
There are liars here.
I do not lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 02:48 PM

"Precisely as true....,"
Which is why childish name-calling is best avoided, don't you think?
"political left as a means to be used by anyone to undermine any opponent"
Racism is the topic under discussion here, not something that has been produced out of the air as a mudslinging weapon, as has 'doctrinaire', 'politically motivated' and 'uncharacteristically dense' .
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM

===racism is the traditional weapon on the right===

Precisely as true, Jim, as the assertion that the traditional weapon on the left is to shriek "racism" whenever one is getting the worst of any argument.

You decide how true that is -

~~ bearing in mind however,please, the agreement you expressed on my "catchall" thread; one point of which, NB though, was that the technique had spread out from the political left as a means to be used by anyone to undermine any opponent; I started with an example of precisely such a tactic resorted to by a footballer who had been called an "Italian bastard" ~~ neither element of which, however offensively intended, could possible be described as racist in any viable definition.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 12:13 PM

"you are being doctrinaire: and politically motivated: and uncharacteristically dense"
A bit more time now.
I have studiously avoided pointing out that racism is the traditional weapon on the right - that whenever a government finds itself in trouble, living standards threatened and unemployment on the rise, the finger is inevitably pointed at non- Brits.
Before we start flinging 'politically motivated' accusations about please ascertain your own particular glass house is well shuttered, especially as you appear to be sharing the same rabbit-hole as a nutter who has just invented a new ethnic grouping (Catholic priests) to defend his excess of zeal in the race departnment.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 11:50 AM

Shouldn't we be seeing similar percentages arising in other groups which live with exactly the same constraints on premarital sex?

One might expect that there would be young male Hindu gangs and gangs of non Pakistani Muslims indulging in the same activities.

Shouldn't we also be seeing the same pattern in other places with a high percentage of Pakistanis e.g. Southall

Doesn't the fact that this is not so give reason to doubt the "Cultural Paedophile Theory" (and it is nothing more than a theory) espoused with such relish by yourself?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 11:43 AM

""Don, there has been no alternative explanation given by your side""

You are a LIAR!!!

I have repeatedly posted on the obvious possibility that these men are a Paedophile Gang, which happens to be mainly Pakistani simply because like gravitates to like, and men trust their own community more than outsiders.

You have dismissed that utterly as a possible alternative because your twisted agenda is to denigrate yet another of the minorities you despise.

It defies logic that you base a theory upon your inaccurate interpretation of other peoples opinions, then claim absolute certainty that yours is the only possible explanation.

I would still like an answer to one question, so I will post it separately, so as not to overtax your goldfish attention span.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 08:32 AM

I thought this piece offered an interesting perspective on contemporary 'anti-establishment' British Pakistani youth sub-culture to be found in economically deprived Northern towns:

Ibn Khaldun: Asian Gangs and White Girls

"Last week, The Times carried a piece on its front page that discussed the seemingly growing phenomenon of Asian gangs, of predominantly Pakistani heritage, sexually exploiting young and vulnerable white girls in the Midlands and the North. The BNP have been openly using this issue for propaganda purposes for a number of years and have aimed at transforming it into an 'Islam' issue. The Times, however, have been much more balanced and focused on the importance of discussing the issue out in the open whilst simultaneously challenging the culture of silence that pervades such sensitive issues in this country."
[...]
"I don't think this has much to do with faith in a direct way nor should it be discussed as a 'Muslim' issue. But it has everything to do with a British Pakistani sub-culture that has developed in many decaying northern towns and cities in this country. In these places, certain young Asian men are disconnected from mainstream society; they develop their own lingo, their own traditions and sub-culture. This sub-culture is often an amalgamation of rural Punjabi values and US hip-hop culture. This sub-culture, in turn, has a deviant offshoot, a sub-culture of a sub-culture if you like, that is anti-establishment, rebellious, crime-prone and deeply ignorant. Petty crime, racism, sexism and homophobia are standard."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 07:05 AM

Likewise Mike
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 06:02 AM

Yes Jim, why is it OK to discuss rapist priests but not any other type?

And, Allibhai-Brown and Ahmed both say that there is an issue of BPs raping children and both explain it in terms of culture.
How can I be racist and them not.

Why not just drop the abuse and discuss the issue.
You just can't, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 05:48 AM

Jim: Much disappointed in your ~ avowed ~ last post. After all that has been pointed out to you, by me & others; & after the points you have explicitly agreed to on my other, 'Racism/catchall', thread, you persist on missing the point by a vast distance, merely giving further vent to shrill generalised cries of "Racism" which take no account of any of the points made.

I say again ~~ you are being doctrinaire: and politically motivated: and uncharacteristically dense ~~

and DISAPPOINTING.

~M~

I have already said all I consider appropriate about the fatuous, frivolous cobra