BS: Muslim prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 01:40 PM

S. 15 requires that a person has met the other person at least twice before. I have found no definition of "grooming" (headnotes do not count) and I have not found a provision criminalising those prior meetings. It is not my field and perhaps I have missed something but it looks to me that what is apparently referred to as "grooming" (and I'm still not quite clear what that is) is not of itself criminous.

Incidentally, it looks at first blush as if every person 10 years old or older who kisses a person under 13 commits an offence - surely I must have missed something there, mustn't I?

S9 also appears to contain a lacuna in that it requires "penetration" but some quite popular activities don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 10:23 AM

"If you are going to make such a claim then you need to provide a damn sound and well supported argument."

No I do not.
I offer it as a plausible theory, and it is not my own.
It has been put forward by two Labour politicians, one very senior, both of whom have worked for years with the Pakistani communities they represent, and are supported and respected by those communities.

It works like this.
I put up my theory and you should try to find fault and/or an alternative.
Just calling me names is not the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 10:14 AM

Because you ignore all the other possible hypotheses that do not centre around culture.

And be clear, you have suggested a hypothesis which blames Pakistani culture for these crimes, without exploring other hypotheses.

If you are going to make such a claim then you need to provide a damn sound and well supported argument.

relying on generalizations and stereotypes, and drawing wildly unconnected conclusions about these criminals based on extremely narrowly selected criteria does not produce an accurate picture of what is happening, but merely a slightly more developed wild hypothesis.

Wilfully pushging a hypothesis that depends on blaming Pakistani culture, without exploring other options indicates a DESIRE to blame Pakistani culture to begin with.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 10:04 AM

Lox, this is what I said just yesterday.

Biologically we are all the same.
A young man of any ethnicity will find it hard to live a saintly life under the cultural pressures found here.
Marriage partners are arranged at a young age, but relationships with girls are not allowed.
Under such a regime, some young men of any ethnic group would be tempted to go and get sex from where they can.
That seems to be what is happening here.

Now, how was that racist?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 10:00 AM

"He sticks to debate."

Nonsense.

He ignores debate and generalizes that anyone who disagrees with his generalizations is a "liberal" with a "liberal agenda"

In fact, just about every post I have read from him in the last year or so is on the subject of his precious "liberal Agenda"

He has, to his credit, argued well that Britain in the US have no right to be In Pakistan killing civilians there, but this does not give him the right to generalize about Pakistanis in Britain, or Tinkers, or "liberals", or homosexuals, or whatever other demographic he wishes to pigeonhole and slander.


The reason you end up being lumped in with him is that you more often than not come running to his aid when he makes such generalizations.

I'd like to see you question his views once in a while rather than picking fights with his political opponents and then crying "not fair" when you are associated with his views.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:54 AM

In answer to your last post,

The idea that you have posted this particular generalization, and called it fact, and then claimed that it serves neither to support nor detract from any judgement of British Pakistani Men as culturally inclined to child abuse (THE SUBJECT OF THE THREAD), and also that you have no interest in it in its own right either, is just plain bizarre.

This line of questioning is getting you nowhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:50 AM

Lox.
I absolutely refute that I "remain wilfully loyal to stereotypes and collective character judgements"

I am arguing with you because you keep making these false character judgements against me.
The first time Ake calls me a racist I will argue it out with him, but he tends not to make those kind of attacks on opponents.
He sticks to debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:44 AM

Richard, In England and Wales, sections 14 and 15 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 make it an offence to arrange a meeting with a child, for oneself or someone else, with the intent of sexually abusing the child. The meeting itself is also criminalized.
This is referred to as grooming.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:42 AM

I would add that if, in the face of evidence and stronf reasoning, you remain wilfully loyal to stereotypes and collective character judgements, then that serves as strong evidence that you are motivated by a more irrational view.

Ake for example is deeply loyal to his view that Foreign Moslems in Britain think theyre "better than us".

He has repeated it a thousand times on this website.

And before you ask me to return to the topic, I would point out that your interjection is the drift in this case, as my purposae on this thread has been to confront the poisonous ideas that Ake has been putting forward - all hidden, like a crocodile behind a fluffy chick, behind his get outr clause "the liberal agenda".


I think you have tried to distance yourself from those ideas, but I find it hard to understand why you appear to be looking for some way in somewhere to undermine my attempts to discredit these ideas.

When one way fails, you have another go.


I don't know where your current line of enquiry is leading, but it appears to be leading to the very tenuous suggestion that Pakistani culture is to blame for these crimes, and that Pakistani Moslems are responsible.


I would be a lot more confident about your motivation if I saw you subject Ake to the same tye of cross examination as you are attempting to engage in with me.

You fail to be honest that he is waving his "keith" flag as he sees that his slander about British Moslems is vindicated by every point you make.

This is regardless of whether the points you make support his hypothesis or not. Merely the scent of a point being scored by you is enough for him to suggest that his view has been vindicated.

So if you are impartial, then go and examine some of the posts with which I disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:37 AM

Er,.. I do not use a loose generalization as the basis for a collective character judgement, but I also do not have a genuine interest in Pakistani courtship practice.

So that makes me a racist?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:30 AM

I don't know if it necessarily makes you a racist to repeat it, but the facts are that amongst British Pakistanis those norms are becoming less and less common.

In addition, if you read my post in which I state what I Believe to be useful criteria for judging, it depends on what you do next.

If you use a loose generalization as the basis for a collective character judgement, or as the basis to explain a spurious slleged cultural characteristic, then you make your line of argument suspicious.

If on the other hanbd, you have a genuine interest in the subject of British Pakistanit courtship habits, then that is a quite different thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:13 AM

I was referring to the British Pakistanis.
Their culture is quite distinct from Turkish Moslems, Tunisian Moslems, etc.
It is understood when discussing a culture that it is a generalisation.
It is still a valid concept.
British Pakistani culture generally does not encourage the kind of courtship behaviour prevalent in Western cultures.
Why can't I say that without being called a racist?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:00 AM

Keith,

once again, it is in fact only a generalization.

I told you that I lived in an almost exclusively Moslem Area for a year and a half.

Moslem girls in Britain are like any other girls and they like to flirt and be naughty as much as moslem boys do, and not just the ones in miniskirts or skinny jeans, but the ones in Hijabs etc. I have seen plenty of it. Secret ciggies, swearing etc etc

Any cultural tendancies in Britain f that type tend to be less 13th century and more 1955

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:57 AM

There you go again.
Just debate Lox.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:54 AM

And I would add that Ake agrees that women are sometimes to blame for their own rape.

I wonder if he thinks that some of these girls are to blame - or is that only when innocent honest to god white rapists do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:51 AM

All I ever said about Pakistani culture is that girls tend not to be allowed to engage in courtship behaviour.
That is factually correct and not being racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:51 AM

Richard,

I disagre on one point.

Kerbcrawling consenting prostitutes is illegal - and should be.

Likewise, adults in cars effectively kerbcrawling underage girls should also be illegal.

I believe that there are other good reasons, including those to do with traffic safety, why kerbcrawling any woman should be illegal, and I believe that that is a realistic preventative solution to this problem.

I think it woud be a whole lot more effective than asking the local vicar to give a sermon to the faithful when they pop in to say their evening prayers.


Keith,

In my opinion It depends what you are saying and how you frame it.

If you are exploring the matter of first cousin marriage, then absolutely not.

If you say "most" oor "a minority" then you give an indication of the extent to which this may or may not happen.


But if you say "it is common ... therefore ..." to prove a generalized point about Pakistanis, without exploring the issue further or indeed showing any genuine interest in that subject, then you have jumped the gun, and your argument begins to look highly suspect.

But before we go too far from this tangent, that isn't the subject matter and as such is a red herring.

The assertion here is that Young Pakistani boys are conditioned to view White girls as legitimate targets for sexual assult by their community and their culture.

IN THE REAL WORLD

Yes there is evidence that the culture in which both Pakistani and White Gangsters exist MAY be an influence on their contempt for women, but that ACTUAL culture is more significantly informed by the tabloid press and by "banter" at football matches, and a general British culture (documented and discussed in another thread) of blaming the woman for sexual assault against her on the grounds that shes "asking for it"

I would bet any money that evry one of the gangsters, Pakistani or otherwise, used that kind of language to dehumanize their victims and legitimize their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:28 AM

Well, I can see that driving a dayglo scoobie or a lowered lexus ought to be illegal but it isn't.

I can see that hoping some poontang gets into your big black car may unset some people - but it isn't illegal and I'm not sure that it ought to be.

Leering at or chatting up women or girls of 15,14,13,12 gets arguably increasingly antisocial as the age goes down - but that in itself is not illegal and I'm not sure that it ought to be.

Assault or sexual assault are illegal. So is what USAians are pleased to call "statutory rape".

Maybe inaccurate use of language is making communication harder.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:28 AM

Let me try something else.
First cousin marriage is common within Pakistani culture.
Is it racist to say that?
Does it imply that all Pakistanis do it and no others do it?

An undesirable consequence is that they suffer a high level of inherited disabilities and a high infant mortality.
Is it racist to say that?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 08:26 AM

"Is it racist to consider aspects of anyone's culture?"

No - but you haven't "considered it". You have generalized about it and seemingly defined it, and your definition of it has so far been informed by apparently received knowledge about how this culture expects British Pakistanis to behave, and by the words of Jack Straw and Anne Cryer.

There are some British Pakistani Moslems who live according to strict orthodox and conservative values, and who expect other British Pakistani Moslems to behave the same way.

Of those, in extreme cases there are even some who commit domestic crimes against women.

But they are not representative of British Pakistani culture.

There are also Gangs of paedophilesm some made up predominantly of British Pakistani heritage, though not wholly.

These gangs are driven by a motivation that I do not understand.

All members of these gangs are committing crimes against young girls, whether those gang members are white or British Pakistani.

The white gang members are not driven by the value systems of any kind of Pakistani culture, and neither are their British Pakistani friends within the gang.

One thing however that they do have in common, is that they live in a society where men and women believe that if a young girl dresses like a slut then she "was asking for it".

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 07:36 AM

All this confusion arises because you keep trying to make assumptions about me instead of just debating.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 07:25 AM

"You discriminate on Racial and religious grounds and state that that is the significant factor in these crimes being committed."
No to both. I do not.

"What you fail to see is that by generalizing about Moslem Pakistani culture, you are generalizing about Moslem Pakistanis"

Is there no such thing as a community culture?
Is it racist to consider aspects of anyone's culture?

"The fact is Keith, that perceptions of culture in the Pakistani "community" are as wide ranging as their opinions on politics and football."
I agree, but there are such things as cultural differences.
People have spent their lives studying them.

"Pakistani culture is not a culture of organized crime."
That is so obviously true it was not worth posting!

"Saying "I don't have a problem with Pakistanis, just their culture" is a totally disingenuous way of blaming the Pakistani community for the activities of organized criminals without having to take responsibility for doing so."
There is no blame on the community.

"But I can see you are determined to make it acceptable to blame all British Pakistanis for the actions of a Pakistanbi crime Gang."

But I do not!

"Another concerning aspect of Ake and Keiths position, is that it somehow suggests that there is a difference between the crimes of the Pakistani Gangsters and the crimes of the White gangsters who were involved."

I say now there is no difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 06:35 AM

Another concerning aspect of Ake and Keiths position, is that it somehow suggests that there is a difference between the crimes of the Pakistani Gangsters and the crimes of the White gangsters who were involved.

In fact it is the same crime with the same motivation - which clarifies that this issue is not the responsibility of the Pakistani "community" or its "culture".

Now lets see how you continue to stick up for this ridiculous lie without widening that double standards crack.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 06:29 AM

Street Grooming is a term used to describe the practice of driving around in your car picking up under age girls.

Grooming is what paedophiles do to lure their victims into vulnerable situations.

Street grooming is the same thing, only it happens on the street.


A huge problem with this idea of blaming British Pakistanis in general and or their culture, is that many young Asian men of all religions prefer to spend their disposable income on flashy cars than on alcohol and cigarettes.

For them, the way to picjk up a girl isn't to go to a nightclub and drink and dance and chat with her there, but to show off to her in your car.

This is a very western pastime, being an idiom taken from American movies etc - driving artound in your cool car with some cool tunes on the enormous stereo, with your shades on and the top down etc.

Again, it has no bearing on the crimes of human traffickers.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 06:22 AM

Keith says.

"let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for."

so I say,

"You argue that the Moslem Pakistani community are responsible for the actions of organized criminals."

And you say:

"No I do not"

What you fail to see is that by generalizing about Moslem Pakistani culture, you are generalizing about Moslem Pakistanis

You make assumptions, nit just about Moslem Pakistani culture, but also about its homogenaiety.

The fact is Keith, that perceptions of culture in the Pakistani "community" are as wide ranging as their opinions on politics and football.

This notion of a homogenous Pakistani culture that you speak of is a stereotype that is imposed and that you happily accept as being true without stopping to consider for one moment that human beings are a considerably more complex species than your quick and easy formulae allow.

Keith,

In addition, you appear to be trying to seperate this false notion of "pakistani culture", as defined by Jack Straw and Anne Cryer, from Pakistani people.

This is a false distinction - culture means nothing without people.

It is not an abstract that can be seperated from the people it represents.

Culture is a description of how people coexist in society.

Pakistani culture is not a culture of organized crime.

Pakistani "community leaders" have no sway over the activities of organized criminals.


Saying "I don't have a problem with Pakistanis, just their culture" is a totally disingenuous way of blaming the Pakistani community for the activities of organized criminals without having to take responsibility for doing so.

Sorry, but those arestill, by definition, racist ideas, as they are based on culrural/racial stereotypes.


But I can see you are determined to make it acceptable to blame all British Pakistanis for the actions of a Pakistanbi crime Gang.

Apology still retracted.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 06:08 AM

Precisely what is "street grooming" and precisely what law does the grooming itself break?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 04:46 AM

"You argue that the Moslem Pakistani community are responsible for the actions of organized criminals."

No, I do not.

"You discriminate on Racial and religious grounds and state that that is the significant factor in these crimes being committed."

No, no and no,

Now, please answer what I actually have said.
Sorry if that is a little harder to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 03:54 AM

"As long as I am making reasoned posts, based on evidence, just point out where I go wrong."

I already have.

I'll do it again.

You argue that the Moslem Pakistani community are responsible for the actions of organized criminals.

You present no evidence whatsoever to support this view.

The closest thin you have to support this view is a video of a politician expressing the same view.

NO evidence - just a slander on Pakistani Moslems.

You discriminate on Racial and religious grounds and state that that is the significant factor in these crimes being committed.

That by definition is a racist argument.


Ake, The attitudes to white girls are not just held by Pakistani men, but are widespread in the media.

YOU have expressed these ideas when you argued that women are sometimes responsible for their own rape.

They were asking for it ... hmmm?

Most of these Gangsters probably are racist, but their mot8ivation is Misogyny.

As is the case with the WHITE gangsters who have collaborated with them in EXACTLY the same way.

The common denominator is Misogyny, not racism. It is attitudes to WOMEN that are the problem.

If it were just race, there would be NO white people in these gangs, and there would be no white rapes of younfg girls elsewhere in the country.


Keith, you are backtracking.


You said it has nothing to do with Islam, but now you are saying that Islamic culture is responsible.


I retract my apology.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 02:58 AM

I note, that the racism practiced against young UK girls is not condemned AS racism by our egalitarian "liberals"

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 01:45 AM

Please try to debate without shouting "racist."
As long as I am making reasoned posts, based on evidence, just point out where I go wrong.
Obviously that will require a little more thought.
If I may make myself guilty of the same, is it not racist to put any one ethnic group on a pedestal and make them above criticism?

I hope you accept now that this is a real issue.
A plausible, non racist explanation has been given for it.
Biologically we are all the same.
A young man of any ethnicity will find it hard to live a saintly life under the cultural pressures found here.
Marriage partners are arranged at a young age, but relationships with girls are not allowed.
Under such a regime, some young men of any ethnic group would be tempted to go and get sex from where they can.
That seems to be what is happening here.
If I have got that wrong say so.
"Racist" is not the answer to everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Smedley
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:59 PM

I note that Akenaton repeatedly refers to clerical child abuse as "homosexual", yet not once refers to this abuse of white girls by Asian men as "heterosexual".

How frightfully surprising.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:38 PM

let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for.

Let us accept that hard work, supporting their children in school, leading peaceable and respectable lives and wanting a bit of security and prosperity for their families are attributes that the culture of the Pakistani "community" is largely responsible for (I taught in secondary schools in east London for 13 years so I do know a bit). That and having to put up with prejudice and racist attitudes. Still, go ahead and focus finely on just those things you've read about that feed your prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:35 PM

but let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for.

No I won't.

That would be to say that British Pakistanis as a rule endorse organized crime.

That is an outrageous slander.

These criminals represent nothing more than the abhorrent nature of organized crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:28 PM

I for one resent all forms of racism...

Surely what you mean is "Don't get me wrong, I'm not a racist, but..."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:28 PM

This particular crime, dubbed street grooming, is the domain of male muslim gangs according to the people in a position to know.
There is lots of other dreadful crime for which other groups are responsible, but let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 03:54 PM

There are Chinese gnags trafficking people - I know about them too - I grew up in Hong Kong.

There are also Africans, and Russians Trafficking underage girls.

The Gangs that have recently been uncovered in England are Pakistani.

They are all equally evil.

As for Irish Gangs, I think the Priests who abused boys and girls in schools and in the laundry's and were protected by the organization that defended them were effectively organized criminals too.

In the Magdalene Laundry's the girls who were abused were also classified by those who abused them as "sluts" etc

It is not a Moslemn Problem.

Ake's argument is on life support.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 02:54 PM

This problem has nothing to do with "boy fancying girl"
It is the cold blooded trafficking of young girls, some of them merely children.

I have zero tolerance of child sexual abuse, the abuse of young women or the abuse of teenage boys......it is an evil practice full stop! Whether perpetrated by muslims or homosexual Catholic priests
I make no distinction....I would make sure the bastards were locked up for a very long time.

The current set of crimes appear to be perpetrated exclusively by muslims, against exclusively non muslim girls...mainly white girls.

Why do they not attack muslim girls, if it were solely to do with hormones they would not be so particular about their victims
I agree with Mrs Cryer our children especially young girls are looked upon as immoral sluts by a large number of muslim men....and as Straw says ....easy meat!

I for one resent all forms of racism....."liberals" prefer to pick and chose!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 11:15 AM

In all cultures there are bound to be good and bad in any community, but since the Blair/Bush attack on Iraq, 9/11 and the London bus bombing that followed it's as if they would rather we were still just a little bit jittery about the Muslim community. As far as Muslim men regarding white women as sluts there are quite a few white men who do too and who groom young girls into the sex industry. Young runaways are often very young girls befriended by 'a nice' white man and often accompanied by a woman to seem even more plausible to lure them in, offering food and shelter and before they know it they get hooked onto drugs and prostitution. It is a despicable thing to do no matter who does it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 08:09 AM

Bottling up sexual urges gives you people as fucked up as Sigmund Freud.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 07:38 AM

Child marriage was accepted here until recently.
Adultery itself is unislamic.
But it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 07:12 AM

So, why not Irish gangs?
Chinese?
The muslim communty does not encourage its girls to have relationships.
Marriages are usually arranged, and usually with partners in Pakistan.
Their unmarried young men must abstain or find sex outside their own community, but not have lasting relationships.
Paedophilia is not endorsed, but the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) took a child bride.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 06:17 AM

Thankyou Keith - I appreciate that.

I'm sorry for taking such an aggressive line, but it is an im[ortant issue.

Ake, I hope you are paying attention.

Ask a teenage boy of any religious or racial background which girls he fancies, or indeed who he thinks are sluts, and he will talk about the pretty girls who dress in cool clothes - whether those girls are Asian, Black, White or however else you may wish to categorize them.

Objectification of women, and mainstream classificaation of girls as "sluts" or "non sluts" on whetever arbitrary grounds, combined with the cold hearted cynicism of organized crime are the problem.

In this case, the gangs are comprisedd mainly, though not exclusively, by men of Pakistani origin.

They do not represent Islamic attitudes to women.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 06:07 AM

I agree that there is an issue about parenting and the security of children in care.
I hope that is not being offered as an excuse for the sexual abuse of children.
Anne Cryer gave a very plausible explanation of why these abusers are mostly from that community.
It is nothing to do with Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 06:05 AM

Keith,

All you're doing is showing us again that the gangs in this case are predominantly made up of Pakistanis.

You have shownb nothing that supports the view that this is a problem of "Moslem attitudes", nor have you shown how talking to "community leaders" is going to stop these gangs.

It is organized crime.

The only actual testimony from Anne Cryer is that she was approached by concerned white parents and that instead of going to the police she went to talk to "community leaders".

What does that testimony tell us about Islamic attitudes to young white girls?

Fuck all thats what.

The rest is her personal assertion that the solution is for the "moslem community" and its "leaders" to take responsibility.

There is nothing anywhere that you have posted or that she has said that shows how the actions of these gangs is in any way the responsibility of these "community leaders".

Your wilful refusal to engage with any of my arguments, and your wilful determination to support the insinuation that it is a Moslem problem and not an organized crime problem (without actually admitting that thats what you think so you can pretend that you are impartial) supports the assertion by many on here that you hold bigotted views yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:52 AM

Perhaps we'll hear an outcry against a minority of white parents/carers who allow their very underage daughters/charges to go out and get drunk, in rough parts of town at that. Or against a minority of older kids who got them the booze, or a minority of landlords who served them the drink. Or against the premature sexualisation of young girls that makes so much money for "the fashion industry" (I mean, how sick is that?). Ah, life's so simple, Keith. All you have to do is to point at the one target that best fits your personal prejudices and you're away...

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:46 AM

No-one yet (as far as I have seen) has moved from "Oh, they were Muslims so there must be something wrong with Islam" to actually examining whether there is any reason for Islam to have caused or contributed to the causes of the crimes in question.

For that reason, it seems to me, the assertion I set out in quotes above, must be a matter of prejudice.

There is some tension in life experiences. We rightly criticise those who fail to learn from experience. But, in my lifetime, there is a group of people (not Muslims) with whom I have repeatedly had unhappy professional experiences. Should I expect a repetition of such experiences, or would that be prejudice?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:40 AM

By Mick Gradwell »


FORMER Detective Superintendent Mick Gradwell, who was East Lancashire's top detective when he retired from the force last year, tells why he agrees with Jack Straw's controversial comments on sex grooming.

WHEN I came to Blackburn in the 1970s, one of my main issues was the gangs of Asian men outside the old nightclub on top of the shopping centre who were picking up drunk white girls, specifically to abuse them.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:37 AM

And what kind of gangs does he say they are?
Anne Cryer was talking about her own actual experience.
It was a testimony.

We were all outraged at the exposures about a small minority of priests sexually abusing children.
We would all be outraged if the perpetrators were a minority of Israelis, US soldiers, BNP activists...
For many, the outrage becomes a shrug when the perpetrators are a minority of Muslims and the victims white.
That is the double standard that Ake rightly points out.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:21 AM

Keith

The other quote from the policemans testimony,

"In recent years we have seen it specifically with victims aged just 14, 15 or 16-years-old who are out on the streets at night and groomed by predatory gangs."

note Keith the word "gangs".

Not "moslem attitudes to white girls", just gangs.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:17 AM

Keith.

You don't know what testimony is do you.

Anne cryer gave her OPINION about the cause and the solution to the problem of organized gangs in her cnstituency.

She provides no testimony or evidence to support her opinion.

So whether she's a Liar or not is irrelevant.

Her words shine no light on the issue except to show that she blames the moslem community as a whole, led by their "community leaders", for the crimes of an organized gang.

You have not even attempted to refute that point.


As for your police inspector,


Here's the crux of his testimony. (Quoted for Keiths benefit as his english comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired)

"What no-one is saying is that the Pakistani community is responsible for the majority of sex crimes: This is just an element of sex crimes in general.

This is a specific problem within a group of people in a minority community."

Again, none of this supports the view that 1. the moslem community is in any way responsible, or 2. that so called "community leaders" have any influence over the activities of organized criminals.


The main Mafia groups in New York ar Families of Italian origin.

Should we make the "italian community" responsible for their crimes?

Should we make "italian community leaders" responsible for not preventing these crimes?

Keith, with ever post you nail your colours more firmly to the mast.


After several attempts to pretend to engage in dabate with me you have failed to even attempt to address ANY of the points I have made, much less refute them in any way.

The best you can do is put words in my mouth and state that you will not be moved.


Keith lacks the most basic powers of reasoning, english comprehension and doesn't understand the difference between the words "testimony" and "opinion".

In addition, he seems determined to support the view that this issue is not about organized crime or child abuse, but is a cultural problem concerning "moslem attitudes".

Meanwhile Ake sits dribbling on the sidelines waving his flag and chanting "keef keef" as his hero digs himself into a more and more preposterous hole.