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BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Donuel 11 Mar 11 - 08:20 PM
Donuel 11 Mar 11 - 08:28 PM
Bobert 11 Mar 11 - 08:31 PM
Donuel 11 Mar 11 - 08:33 PM
Donuel 11 Mar 11 - 09:17 PM
Donuel 11 Mar 11 - 10:01 PM
Donuel 11 Mar 11 - 10:21 PM
GUEST,mg 11 Mar 11 - 10:22 PM
GUEST,number 6 11 Mar 11 - 10:23 PM
Donuel 11 Mar 11 - 10:25 PM
Peace 11 Mar 11 - 10:31 PM
artbrooks 11 Mar 11 - 10:34 PM
Donuel 11 Mar 11 - 10:36 PM
GUEST,number 6 11 Mar 11 - 10:36 PM
Jeri 11 Mar 11 - 10:38 PM
Ron Davies 12 Mar 11 - 01:26 AM
Little Hawk 12 Mar 11 - 01:50 AM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 02:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 11 - 04:45 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 12 Mar 11 - 04:54 AM
Jack Campin 12 Mar 11 - 04:57 AM
Will Fly 12 Mar 11 - 05:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 11 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,John MacKenzie 12 Mar 11 - 05:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Mar 11 - 05:39 AM
bubblyrat 12 Mar 11 - 05:54 AM
GUEST,999 12 Mar 11 - 08:46 AM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 09:46 AM
Jack Campin 12 Mar 11 - 10:03 AM
artbrooks 12 Mar 11 - 10:04 AM
Charley Noble 12 Mar 11 - 10:06 AM
number 6 12 Mar 11 - 10:08 AM
GUEST,999 12 Mar 11 - 10:10 AM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 10:16 AM
Charley Noble 12 Mar 11 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,999 12 Mar 11 - 10:31 AM
Charley Noble 12 Mar 11 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,999 12 Mar 11 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,999 12 Mar 11 - 11:34 AM
gnu 12 Mar 11 - 11:36 AM
gnu 12 Mar 11 - 11:44 AM
number 6 12 Mar 11 - 11:45 AM
Charley Noble 12 Mar 11 - 11:51 AM
SINSULL 12 Mar 11 - 11:57 AM
number 6 12 Mar 11 - 11:59 AM
gnu 12 Mar 11 - 12:05 PM
josepp 12 Mar 11 - 12:07 PM
josepp 12 Mar 11 - 12:14 PM
Bettynh 12 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM
josepp 12 Mar 11 - 12:37 PM
GUEST,999 12 Mar 11 - 01:10 PM
Charley Noble 12 Mar 11 - 01:16 PM
Charley Noble 12 Mar 11 - 01:30 PM
gnu 12 Mar 11 - 01:37 PM
gnu 12 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM
gnu 12 Mar 11 - 01:53 PM
Jack Campin 12 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM
josepp 12 Mar 11 - 02:03 PM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 02:13 PM
gnu 12 Mar 11 - 02:17 PM
gnu 12 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,999 12 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 02:26 PM
gnu 12 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM
josepp 12 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM
Charley Noble 12 Mar 11 - 03:54 PM
Charley Noble 12 Mar 11 - 04:35 PM
gnu 12 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM
josepp 12 Mar 11 - 04:49 PM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Mar 11 - 05:18 PM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 05:56 PM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 05:58 PM
GUEST,999 12 Mar 11 - 06:08 PM
Charley Noble 12 Mar 11 - 06:24 PM
gnu 12 Mar 11 - 06:29 PM
Jack Campin 12 Mar 11 - 06:31 PM
bobad 12 Mar 11 - 06:44 PM
gnu 12 Mar 11 - 06:46 PM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 06:59 PM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 07:03 PM
gnu 12 Mar 11 - 07:14 PM
Jack Campin 12 Mar 11 - 07:16 PM
SINSULL 12 Mar 11 - 07:19 PM
SINSULL 12 Mar 11 - 07:19 PM
gnu 12 Mar 11 - 07:20 PM
Jack Campin 12 Mar 11 - 07:48 PM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 08:15 PM
Little Hawk 12 Mar 11 - 08:34 PM
josepp 12 Mar 11 - 08:50 PM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 08:59 PM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 09:06 PM
josepp 12 Mar 11 - 09:07 PM
Little Hawk 12 Mar 11 - 09:27 PM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 09:30 PM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 09:32 PM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 09:41 PM
Charley Noble 12 Mar 11 - 09:45 PM
number 6 12 Mar 11 - 10:49 PM
Little Hawk 12 Mar 11 - 10:50 PM
J-boy 12 Mar 11 - 11:09 PM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 11:11 PM
number 6 12 Mar 11 - 11:20 PM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 11:21 PM
J-boy 12 Mar 11 - 11:31 PM
Little Hawk 12 Mar 11 - 11:36 PM
Donuel 12 Mar 11 - 11:36 PM
Little Hawk 12 Mar 11 - 11:45 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Mar 11 - 03:35 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 13 Mar 11 - 09:19 AM
Jack Campin 13 Mar 11 - 09:31 AM
Charley Noble 13 Mar 11 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,number 6 13 Mar 11 - 11:10 AM
Charley Noble 13 Mar 11 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,999 13 Mar 11 - 12:19 PM
gnu 13 Mar 11 - 12:37 PM
SINSULL 13 Mar 11 - 01:28 PM
Donuel 13 Mar 11 - 01:35 PM
Bill D 13 Mar 11 - 01:39 PM
Bettynh 13 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM
Charley Noble 13 Mar 11 - 02:06 PM
Charley Noble 13 Mar 11 - 02:10 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Mar 11 - 02:27 PM
gnu 13 Mar 11 - 02:32 PM
SINSULL 13 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 13 Mar 11 - 04:02 PM
Charley Noble 13 Mar 11 - 04:15 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Mar 11 - 06:10 PM
Charley Noble 13 Mar 11 - 06:26 PM
bobad 13 Mar 11 - 06:58 PM
Charley Noble 13 Mar 11 - 08:07 PM
Donuel 13 Mar 11 - 08:18 PM
SINSULL 13 Mar 11 - 08:21 PM
Donuel 13 Mar 11 - 08:28 PM
Donuel 13 Mar 11 - 08:33 PM
GUEST,mg 13 Mar 11 - 08:34 PM
Charley Noble 13 Mar 11 - 08:42 PM
Donuel 13 Mar 11 - 11:14 PM
Jeri 13 Mar 11 - 11:29 PM
Donuel 13 Mar 11 - 11:54 PM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 12:28 AM
GUEST,999 14 Mar 11 - 06:56 AM
GUEST,999 14 Mar 11 - 07:12 AM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 07:33 AM
Jack Campin 14 Mar 11 - 07:34 AM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 07:35 AM
GUEST,999 14 Mar 11 - 07:43 AM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM
Charley Noble 14 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 08:12 AM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,999 14 Mar 11 - 08:22 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 14 Mar 11 - 08:25 AM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 08:30 AM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 08:33 AM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,999 14 Mar 11 - 08:47 AM
Ringer 14 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,999 14 Mar 11 - 08:51 AM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 08:51 AM
GUEST,999 14 Mar 11 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 14 Mar 11 - 09:06 AM
Charley Noble 14 Mar 11 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 14 Mar 11 - 09:41 AM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 09:44 AM
Charley Noble 14 Mar 11 - 10:07 AM
Mrrzy 14 Mar 11 - 10:59 AM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 11:12 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 14 Mar 11 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 14 Mar 11 - 12:08 PM
Jack Campin 14 Mar 11 - 12:17 PM
josepp 14 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM
SINSULL 14 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,999 14 Mar 11 - 12:32 PM
gnu 14 Mar 11 - 01:13 PM
gnu 14 Mar 11 - 01:36 PM
Bill D 14 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM
Little Hawk 14 Mar 11 - 01:46 PM
gnu 14 Mar 11 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,999 14 Mar 11 - 02:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 Mar 11 - 02:34 PM
gnu 14 Mar 11 - 03:04 PM
SINSULL 14 Mar 11 - 03:07 PM
Charley Noble 14 Mar 11 - 03:25 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 14 Mar 11 - 05:54 PM
Charley Noble 14 Mar 11 - 06:15 PM
gnu 14 Mar 11 - 07:06 PM
GUEST,mg 14 Mar 11 - 07:14 PM
Jack Campin 14 Mar 11 - 07:26 PM
SINSULL 14 Mar 11 - 07:29 PM
Jack Campin 14 Mar 11 - 07:36 PM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 07:38 PM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 07:40 PM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 07:47 PM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 07:49 PM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 08:00 PM
Jack Campin 14 Mar 11 - 08:13 PM
Charley Noble 14 Mar 11 - 08:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 Mar 11 - 08:42 PM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 09:13 PM
Charley Noble 14 Mar 11 - 09:26 PM
Jeri 14 Mar 11 - 10:16 PM
Charley Noble 14 Mar 11 - 10:16 PM
Jeri 14 Mar 11 - 10:18 PM
Jack Campin 14 Mar 11 - 10:19 PM
GUEST,999 14 Mar 11 - 10:24 PM
Charley Noble 14 Mar 11 - 10:40 PM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 11:07 PM
Donuel 14 Mar 11 - 11:11 PM
GUEST,999 14 Mar 11 - 11:20 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 14 Mar 11 - 11:33 PM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 12:16 AM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 12:22 AM
GUEST,999 15 Mar 11 - 12:27 AM
Naemanson 15 Mar 11 - 03:39 AM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 04:49 AM
Jack Campin 15 Mar 11 - 07:38 AM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 07:45 AM
bobad 15 Mar 11 - 08:05 AM
SINSULL 15 Mar 11 - 08:12 AM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 15 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 08:29 AM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 08:40 AM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 09:09 AM
Jack Campin 15 Mar 11 - 09:14 AM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 15 Mar 11 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,number 6 15 Mar 11 - 09:59 AM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 10:03 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 15 Mar 11 - 10:14 AM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 10:40 AM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 11:51 AM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 11:52 AM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM
josepp 15 Mar 11 - 12:27 PM
Little Hawk 15 Mar 11 - 12:30 PM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 12:44 PM
SINSULL 15 Mar 11 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,number 6 15 Mar 11 - 12:52 PM
Little Hawk 15 Mar 11 - 01:04 PM
Stringsinger 15 Mar 11 - 01:12 PM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 15 Mar 11 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,number 6 15 Mar 11 - 01:50 PM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,999 15 Mar 11 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,number 6 15 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 03:07 PM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 03:18 PM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 03:26 PM
Jack Campin 15 Mar 11 - 03:43 PM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 03:51 PM
pdq 15 Mar 11 - 04:11 PM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,number 6 15 Mar 11 - 04:39 PM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 05:28 PM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 05:40 PM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 05:50 PM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 06:01 PM
Mrrzy 15 Mar 11 - 06:35 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Mar 11 - 06:49 PM
SINSULL 15 Mar 11 - 07:02 PM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 07:04 PM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 07:33 PM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 07:42 PM
gnu 15 Mar 11 - 07:59 PM
bobad 15 Mar 11 - 08:27 PM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 08:52 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Mar 11 - 09:07 PM
GUEST,999 15 Mar 11 - 09:09 PM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 09:21 PM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 09:34 PM
Little Hawk 15 Mar 11 - 09:40 PM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 10:43 PM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 10:49 PM
GUEST,999 15 Mar 11 - 11:02 PM
Donuel 15 Mar 11 - 11:02 PM
Charley Noble 15 Mar 11 - 11:03 PM
mousethief 15 Mar 11 - 11:49 PM
J-boy 16 Mar 11 - 01:52 AM
Ebbie 16 Mar 11 - 03:01 AM
gnu 16 Mar 11 - 05:51 AM
gnu 16 Mar 11 - 07:08 AM
Jack Campin 16 Mar 11 - 07:40 AM
Charley Noble 16 Mar 11 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,number 6 16 Mar 11 - 07:59 AM
Charley Noble 16 Mar 11 - 08:08 AM
Charley Noble 16 Mar 11 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 16 Mar 11 - 09:11 AM
SINSULL 16 Mar 11 - 10:10 AM
Charley Noble 16 Mar 11 - 10:26 AM
Stringsinger 16 Mar 11 - 11:01 AM
Bill D 16 Mar 11 - 11:25 AM
Charley Noble 16 Mar 11 - 11:31 AM
SINSULL 16 Mar 11 - 11:57 AM
Donuel 16 Mar 11 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,number 6 16 Mar 11 - 01:02 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 11 - 01:08 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM
Charley Noble 16 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM
gnu 16 Mar 11 - 01:35 PM
gnu 16 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,number 6 16 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM
gnu 16 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM
gnu 16 Mar 11 - 01:46 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Mar 11 - 02:12 PM
Charley Noble 16 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,999 16 Mar 11 - 02:26 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Mar 11 - 02:42 PM
gnu 16 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 11 - 02:57 PM
GUEST,mg 16 Mar 11 - 03:06 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 11 - 03:12 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 11 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,999 16 Mar 11 - 04:19 PM
JohnInKansas 16 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Mar 11 - 05:52 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Mar 11 - 06:04 PM
gnu 16 Mar 11 - 07:14 PM
pdq 16 Mar 11 - 07:25 PM
gnu 16 Mar 11 - 07:30 PM
pdq 16 Mar 11 - 07:34 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 11 - 07:35 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 11 - 07:40 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 11 - 07:42 PM
gnu 16 Mar 11 - 08:03 PM
olddude 16 Mar 11 - 08:15 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 11 - 08:18 PM
pdq 16 Mar 11 - 08:29 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 11 - 08:50 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Mar 11 - 09:08 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 11 - 09:56 PM
Charley Noble 16 Mar 11 - 10:32 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 11 - 10:57 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 11 - 11:06 PM
Donuel 16 Mar 11 - 11:10 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 17 Mar 11 - 12:31 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 17 Mar 11 - 06:12 AM
gnu 17 Mar 11 - 06:52 AM
Jack Campin 17 Mar 11 - 06:58 AM
Charley Noble 17 Mar 11 - 07:58 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 17 Mar 11 - 08:04 AM
Charley Noble 17 Mar 11 - 09:44 AM
GUEST,999 17 Mar 11 - 10:44 AM
Jack Campin 17 Mar 11 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,999 17 Mar 11 - 11:20 AM
gnu 17 Mar 11 - 11:39 AM
olddude 17 Mar 11 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,999 17 Mar 11 - 11:47 AM
GUEST,999 17 Mar 11 - 11:57 AM
Jack Campin 17 Mar 11 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,999 17 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,999 17 Mar 11 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,999 17 Mar 11 - 12:31 PM
pdq 17 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,999 17 Mar 11 - 12:48 PM
Ebbie 17 Mar 11 - 01:08 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Mar 11 - 01:12 PM
gnu 17 Mar 11 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 17 Mar 11 - 01:17 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Mar 11 - 01:18 PM
Charley Noble 17 Mar 11 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Mar 11 - 01:24 PM
Charley Noble 17 Mar 11 - 01:28 PM
gnu 17 Mar 11 - 01:30 PM
gnu 17 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM
gnu 17 Mar 11 - 01:50 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 11 - 01:57 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Mar 11 - 01:57 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM
gnu 17 Mar 11 - 02:01 PM
Ebbie 17 Mar 11 - 02:07 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 11 - 02:13 PM
GUEST,999 17 Mar 11 - 02:13 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 11 - 02:15 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 11 - 02:21 PM
gnu 17 Mar 11 - 02:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Mar 11 - 03:22 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Mar 11 - 03:52 PM
gnu 17 Mar 11 - 04:14 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 11 - 04:19 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 11 - 04:26 PM
gnu 17 Mar 11 - 04:37 PM
gnu 17 Mar 11 - 04:39 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 11 - 05:18 PM
gnu 17 Mar 11 - 05:19 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 11 - 05:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Mar 11 - 05:35 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 11 - 05:42 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Mar 11 - 06:11 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 11 - 06:14 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 11 - 06:17 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Mar 11 - 06:21 PM
Donuel 17 Mar 11 - 06:41 PM
Charley Noble 17 Mar 11 - 07:31 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Mar 11 - 07:51 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Mar 11 - 08:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Mar 11 - 09:09 PM
Charley Noble 17 Mar 11 - 09:23 PM
Charley Noble 18 Mar 11 - 07:31 AM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 11:08 AM
SINSULL 18 Mar 11 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,mg 18 Mar 11 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,number 6 18 Mar 11 - 11:31 AM
GUEST,number 6 18 Mar 11 - 11:35 AM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 11:49 AM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 11:52 AM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 12:30 PM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM
Charley Noble 18 Mar 11 - 12:42 PM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 12:59 PM
Jack Campin 18 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Mar 11 - 01:16 PM
Charley Noble 18 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Mar 11 - 02:05 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Mar 11 - 02:12 PM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 02:33 PM
Charley Noble 18 Mar 11 - 02:50 PM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Mar 11 - 03:51 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Mar 11 - 03:57 PM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 04:17 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Mar 11 - 04:33 PM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 05:09 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM
gnu 18 Mar 11 - 05:26 PM
Jack Campin 18 Mar 11 - 05:35 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Mar 11 - 10:22 PM
Charley Noble 19 Mar 11 - 12:12 AM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 05:39 AM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 06:21 AM
Jack Campin 19 Mar 11 - 07:05 AM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 07:10 AM
Donuel 19 Mar 11 - 09:42 AM
GUEST,number 6 19 Mar 11 - 09:55 AM
Donuel 19 Mar 11 - 10:16 AM
Donuel 19 Mar 11 - 10:23 AM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 11:21 AM
Charley Noble 19 Mar 11 - 11:23 AM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 11:58 AM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 12:05 PM
Jack Campin 19 Mar 11 - 12:06 PM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 12:09 PM
Charley Noble 19 Mar 11 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,mg 19 Mar 11 - 01:15 PM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 01:19 PM
Stringsinger 19 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 19 Mar 11 - 01:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Mar 11 - 01:54 PM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 02:00 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Mar 11 - 02:20 PM
gnu 19 Mar 11 - 06:13 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Mar 11 - 08:03 PM
GUEST,mg 19 Mar 11 - 08:34 PM
J-boy 19 Mar 11 - 10:53 PM
gnu 20 Mar 11 - 11:57 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Mar 11 - 01:45 PM
gnu 20 Mar 11 - 02:53 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Mar 11 - 03:13 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Mar 11 - 03:23 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 20 Mar 11 - 03:33 PM
gnu 20 Mar 11 - 04:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Mar 11 - 06:20 PM
Charley Noble 20 Mar 11 - 09:05 PM
Charley Noble 21 Mar 11 - 07:41 AM
SINSULL 21 Mar 11 - 08:41 AM
gnu 21 Mar 11 - 10:47 AM
gnu 21 Mar 11 - 10:55 AM
gnu 21 Mar 11 - 10:57 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Mar 11 - 12:54 PM
Charley Noble 21 Mar 11 - 01:06 PM
gnu 21 Mar 11 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,mg 21 Mar 11 - 02:50 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM
Charley Noble 21 Mar 11 - 05:03 PM
GUEST,mg 21 Mar 11 - 05:24 PM
gnu 21 Mar 11 - 06:15 PM
gnu 21 Mar 11 - 07:26 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Mar 11 - 08:00 PM
Charley Noble 21 Mar 11 - 10:45 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 12:56 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Mar 11 - 02:06 AM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 06:44 AM
gnu 22 Mar 11 - 08:07 AM
Charley Noble 22 Mar 11 - 08:20 AM
SINSULL 22 Mar 11 - 08:21 AM
Charley Noble 22 Mar 11 - 08:27 AM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 10:23 AM
Charley Noble 22 Mar 11 - 11:27 AM
reggie miles 22 Mar 11 - 11:37 AM
reggie miles 22 Mar 11 - 11:39 AM
Charley Noble 22 Mar 11 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 12:22 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Mar 11 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Mar 11 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Mar 11 - 01:32 PM
reggie miles 22 Mar 11 - 01:37 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Mar 11 - 01:58 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 02:15 PM
Charley Noble 22 Mar 11 - 02:19 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Mar 11 - 02:44 PM
SINSULL 22 Mar 11 - 02:50 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Mar 11 - 03:40 PM
Charley Noble 22 Mar 11 - 03:56 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 04:13 PM
gnu 22 Mar 11 - 04:15 PM
gnu 22 Mar 11 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Mar 11 - 04:59 PM
SINSULL 22 Mar 11 - 05:01 PM
SINSULL 22 Mar 11 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Mar 11 - 05:24 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Mar 11 - 05:31 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Mar 11 - 05:47 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Mar 11 - 06:03 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Mar 11 - 07:09 PM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 07:12 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 07:28 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 07:38 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 07:54 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Mar 11 - 08:05 PM
Charley Noble 22 Mar 11 - 08:11 PM
number 6 22 Mar 11 - 08:35 PM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 08:48 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Mar 11 - 08:59 PM
GUEST,999--Canadian news source 22 Mar 11 - 09:06 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 09:07 PM
GUEST,999 22 Mar 11 - 09:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Mar 11 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Mar 11 - 09:56 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 10:00 PM
Donuel 22 Mar 11 - 10:04 PM
Donuel 23 Mar 11 - 12:12 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 23 Mar 11 - 07:26 AM
SINSULL 23 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM
Charley Noble 23 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM
SINSULL 23 Mar 11 - 08:25 AM
gnu 23 Mar 11 - 08:40 AM
gnu 23 Mar 11 - 09:42 AM
Charley Noble 23 Mar 11 - 09:45 AM
Charley Noble 23 Mar 11 - 09:54 AM
Donuel 23 Mar 11 - 01:02 PM
Dorothy Parshall 23 Mar 11 - 01:09 PM
Dorothy Parshall 23 Mar 11 - 01:12 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,mg 23 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM
gnu 23 Mar 11 - 02:00 PM
gnu 23 Mar 11 - 02:20 PM
Donuel 23 Mar 11 - 09:45 PM
Charley Noble 23 Mar 11 - 10:50 PM
Charley Noble 23 Mar 11 - 10:57 PM
Charley Noble 24 Mar 11 - 07:42 AM
Charley Noble 24 Mar 11 - 07:59 AM
SINSULL 24 Mar 11 - 09:13 AM
Donuel 24 Mar 11 - 10:18 AM
SINSULL 24 Mar 11 - 11:11 AM
Donuel 24 Mar 11 - 11:18 AM
gnu 24 Mar 11 - 11:19 AM
Donuel 24 Mar 11 - 11:19 AM
gnu 24 Mar 11 - 11:28 AM
gnu 24 Mar 11 - 11:47 AM
Charley Noble 24 Mar 11 - 11:56 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Mar 11 - 01:29 PM
gnu 24 Mar 11 - 02:02 PM
GUEST,mg 24 Mar 11 - 02:28 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Mar 11 - 03:12 PM
gnu 24 Mar 11 - 03:27 PM
gnu 24 Mar 11 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,mg 24 Mar 11 - 04:47 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Mar 11 - 05:58 PM
GUEST,mg 24 Mar 11 - 06:27 PM
Charley Noble 24 Mar 11 - 08:40 PM
gnu 25 Mar 11 - 06:33 AM
gnu 25 Mar 11 - 06:47 AM
Charley Noble 25 Mar 11 - 08:11 AM
Charley Noble 25 Mar 11 - 08:37 AM
gnu 25 Mar 11 - 01:10 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Mar 11 - 01:33 PM
gnu 25 Mar 11 - 01:58 PM
JHW 25 Mar 11 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,mg 25 Mar 11 - 02:15 PM
Charley Noble 25 Mar 11 - 03:12 PM
gnu 25 Mar 11 - 03:19 PM
GUEST,mg 25 Mar 11 - 03:31 PM
Charley Noble 25 Mar 11 - 03:37 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Mar 11 - 05:17 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Mar 11 - 05:51 PM
gnu 25 Mar 11 - 07:34 PM
Charley Noble 25 Mar 11 - 09:46 PM
gnu 26 Mar 11 - 07:22 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 26 Mar 11 - 07:58 AM
Charley Noble 26 Mar 11 - 10:30 AM
gnu 26 Mar 11 - 11:27 AM
Donuel 26 Mar 11 - 11:41 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Mar 11 - 01:31 PM
Charley Noble 26 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM
gnu 26 Mar 11 - 02:28 PM
GUEST,mg 26 Mar 11 - 02:54 PM
Charley Noble 26 Mar 11 - 03:46 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Mar 11 - 04:30 PM
gnu 26 Mar 11 - 04:52 PM
Charley Noble 26 Mar 11 - 08:30 PM
gnu 26 Mar 11 - 09:18 PM
GUEST,mg 26 Mar 11 - 10:07 PM
gnu 27 Mar 11 - 06:54 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 27 Mar 11 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,999 27 Mar 11 - 08:49 AM
Charley Noble 27 Mar 11 - 10:06 AM
Donuel 27 Mar 11 - 11:35 AM
Donuel 27 Mar 11 - 11:42 AM
Charley Noble 27 Mar 11 - 12:11 PM
GUEST,mg 27 Mar 11 - 12:15 PM
gnu 27 Mar 11 - 12:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Mar 11 - 01:07 PM
Charley Noble 27 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,mg 27 Mar 11 - 03:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Mar 11 - 03:46 PM
Charley Noble 27 Mar 11 - 04:18 PM
gnu 27 Mar 11 - 04:46 PM
GUEST,mg 27 Mar 11 - 05:01 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Mar 11 - 06:36 PM
Charley Noble 27 Mar 11 - 09:47 PM
Donuel 27 Mar 11 - 11:19 PM
GUEST,mg 27 Mar 11 - 11:29 PM
Donuel 27 Mar 11 - 11:55 PM
Donuel 28 Mar 11 - 12:05 AM
Charley Noble 28 Mar 11 - 08:10 AM
GUEST,mg 28 Mar 11 - 10:34 AM
gnu 28 Mar 11 - 12:00 PM
Charley Noble 28 Mar 11 - 12:48 PM
Charley Noble 28 Mar 11 - 12:54 PM
Charley Noble 28 Mar 11 - 12:59 PM
gnu 28 Mar 11 - 01:06 PM
gnu 28 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM
gnu 28 Mar 11 - 01:22 PM
Jack Campin 28 Mar 11 - 02:08 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 28 Mar 11 - 02:09 PM
gnu 28 Mar 11 - 02:18 PM
gnu 28 Mar 11 - 03:14 PM
Charley Noble 28 Mar 11 - 04:25 PM
gnu 28 Mar 11 - 04:34 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 28 Mar 11 - 04:50 PM
GUEST,mg 28 Mar 11 - 04:57 PM
Donuel 28 Mar 11 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,999 28 Mar 11 - 05:01 PM
Donuel 28 Mar 11 - 05:09 PM
GUEST,mg 28 Mar 11 - 05:45 PM
gnu 28 Mar 11 - 06:48 PM
Donuel 28 Mar 11 - 08:48 PM
Donuel 28 Mar 11 - 10:02 PM
Charley Noble 29 Mar 11 - 08:08 AM
Charley Noble 29 Mar 11 - 09:02 AM
GUEST,999 29 Mar 11 - 10:08 AM
Donuel 29 Mar 11 - 10:31 AM
Donuel 29 Mar 11 - 11:31 AM
Charley Noble 29 Mar 11 - 11:46 AM
Donuel 29 Mar 11 - 12:17 PM
Stringsinger 29 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,mg 29 Mar 11 - 01:08 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Mar 11 - 02:19 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,mg 29 Mar 11 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,mg 29 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM
gnu 29 Mar 11 - 03:01 PM
Charley Noble 29 Mar 11 - 03:26 PM
gnu 29 Mar 11 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,mg 29 Mar 11 - 04:17 PM
Charley Noble 29 Mar 11 - 04:54 PM
gnu 29 Mar 11 - 04:56 PM
Jack Campin 29 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Mar 11 - 05:22 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 29 Mar 11 - 06:18 PM
gnu 29 Mar 11 - 07:35 PM
Charley Noble 29 Mar 11 - 08:07 PM
Jack Campin 29 Mar 11 - 08:45 PM
Donuel 29 Mar 11 - 09:09 PM
Donuel 29 Mar 11 - 09:13 PM
GUEST 30 Mar 11 - 02:24 AM
Charley Noble 30 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM
gnu 30 Mar 11 - 01:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Mar 11 - 02:12 PM
Jack Campin 30 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM
gnu 30 Mar 11 - 02:33 PM
Charley Noble 30 Mar 11 - 03:11 PM
gnu 30 Mar 11 - 03:57 PM
gnu 30 Mar 11 - 05:17 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Mar 11 - 06:05 PM
GUEST,mg 30 Mar 11 - 06:35 PM
Donuel 30 Mar 11 - 09:14 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Mar 11 - 09:21 PM
Donuel 30 Mar 11 - 09:55 PM
Charley Noble 30 Mar 11 - 10:23 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 31 Mar 11 - 05:58 AM
gnu 31 Mar 11 - 07:58 AM
Charley Noble 31 Mar 11 - 08:22 AM
gnu 31 Mar 11 - 09:42 AM
Charley Noble 31 Mar 11 - 09:51 AM
Donuel 31 Mar 11 - 12:26 PM
SINSULL 31 Mar 11 - 12:55 PM
gnu 31 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 31 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM
gnu 31 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,mg 31 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM
Donuel 31 Mar 11 - 04:45 PM
Donuel 31 Mar 11 - 04:59 PM
Charley Noble 31 Mar 11 - 06:23 PM
Donuel 31 Mar 11 - 07:27 PM
Donuel 31 Mar 11 - 07:45 PM
Donuel 31 Mar 11 - 07:56 PM
Donuel 31 Mar 11 - 08:31 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 31 Mar 11 - 08:53 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 31 Mar 11 - 08:56 PM
Charley Noble 31 Mar 11 - 09:55 PM
gnu 31 Mar 11 - 10:03 PM
GUEST,mg 31 Mar 11 - 10:30 PM
Donuel 01 Apr 11 - 12:07 AM
Donuel 01 Apr 11 - 02:13 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 01 Apr 11 - 07:13 AM
Jack Campin 01 Apr 11 - 08:33 AM
Charley Noble 01 Apr 11 - 11:09 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Apr 11 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,mg 01 Apr 11 - 01:20 PM
gnu 01 Apr 11 - 01:54 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Apr 11 - 01:57 PM
GUEST,mg 01 Apr 11 - 03:09 PM
Donuel 01 Apr 11 - 03:10 PM
Charley Noble 01 Apr 11 - 04:01 PM
Charley Noble 01 Apr 11 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,999 01 Apr 11 - 05:06 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Apr 11 - 05:52 PM
GUEST,mg 01 Apr 11 - 06:00 PM
Jack Campin 01 Apr 11 - 06:36 PM
Charley Noble 01 Apr 11 - 09:07 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 02 Apr 11 - 06:39 AM
Charley Noble 02 Apr 11 - 09:52 AM
Charley Noble 02 Apr 11 - 11:15 AM
gnu 02 Apr 11 - 12:37 PM
gnu 02 Apr 11 - 12:46 PM
gnu 02 Apr 11 - 01:04 PM
Donuel 02 Apr 11 - 01:28 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM
Charley Noble 02 Apr 11 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,mg 02 Apr 11 - 01:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Apr 11 - 01:43 PM
gnu 02 Apr 11 - 01:51 PM
gnu 02 Apr 11 - 01:52 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Apr 11 - 02:09 PM
Donuel 02 Apr 11 - 02:19 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Apr 11 - 02:31 PM
Donuel 02 Apr 11 - 02:53 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Apr 11 - 03:33 PM
gnu 02 Apr 11 - 03:50 PM
Donuel 02 Apr 11 - 04:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Apr 11 - 04:20 PM
Charley Noble 02 Apr 11 - 04:30 PM
Stringsinger 02 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM
Donuel 02 Apr 11 - 07:13 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Apr 11 - 07:41 PM
Donuel 02 Apr 11 - 07:48 PM
GUEST,mg 02 Apr 11 - 08:44 PM
Charley Noble 02 Apr 11 - 09:44 PM
Charley Noble 03 Apr 11 - 08:28 AM
SINSULL 03 Apr 11 - 10:19 AM
Charley Noble 03 Apr 11 - 10:34 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Apr 11 - 01:22 PM
gnu 03 Apr 11 - 01:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Apr 11 - 02:22 PM
Stringsinger 03 Apr 11 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,mg 03 Apr 11 - 03:39 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Apr 11 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,mg 03 Apr 11 - 04:53 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Apr 11 - 05:07 PM
GUEST,mg 03 Apr 11 - 05:32 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Apr 11 - 05:54 PM
SINSULL 03 Apr 11 - 06:16 PM
GUEST,mg 03 Apr 11 - 06:17 PM
GUEST,mg 03 Apr 11 - 06:29 PM
SINSULL 03 Apr 11 - 08:09 PM
Charley Noble 03 Apr 11 - 08:37 PM
Charley Noble 03 Apr 11 - 08:49 PM
GUEST,mg 03 Apr 11 - 10:08 PM
Ebbie 03 Apr 11 - 10:48 PM
Charley Noble 04 Apr 11 - 07:36 AM
SINSULL 04 Apr 11 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,999 04 Apr 11 - 12:15 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Apr 11 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,mg 04 Apr 11 - 01:32 PM
Charley Noble 04 Apr 11 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,mg 04 Apr 11 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,mg 04 Apr 11 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,mg 04 Apr 11 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,999 04 Apr 11 - 04:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Apr 11 - 05:20 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Apr 11 - 05:39 PM
Jack Campin 04 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,mg 04 Apr 11 - 05:58 PM
GUEST 04 Apr 11 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,mg 04 Apr 11 - 06:10 PM
Donuel 04 Apr 11 - 09:32 PM
Charley Noble 04 Apr 11 - 10:32 PM
GUEST,mg 05 Apr 11 - 12:29 AM
GUEST,999 05 Apr 11 - 02:14 AM
GUEST,999 05 Apr 11 - 03:30 AM
Jack Campin 05 Apr 11 - 05:36 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 05 Apr 11 - 07:07 AM
Charley Noble 05 Apr 11 - 09:04 AM
gnu 05 Apr 11 - 10:57 AM
Donuel 05 Apr 11 - 11:48 AM
Donuel 05 Apr 11 - 11:50 AM
Charley Noble 05 Apr 11 - 11:52 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Apr 11 - 12:59 PM
Donuel 05 Apr 11 - 01:07 PM
Charley Noble 05 Apr 11 - 01:22 PM
gnu 05 Apr 11 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,mg 05 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,mg 05 Apr 11 - 02:09 PM
Jack Campin 05 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,mg 05 Apr 11 - 03:17 PM
Charley Noble 05 Apr 11 - 04:20 PM
gnu 05 Apr 11 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,mg 05 Apr 11 - 04:37 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Apr 11 - 04:43 PM
gnu 05 Apr 11 - 05:06 PM
GUEST,mg 05 Apr 11 - 05:21 PM
GUEST,mg 05 Apr 11 - 05:25 PM
Jack Campin 05 Apr 11 - 07:25 PM
Donuel 05 Apr 11 - 07:47 PM
gnu 05 Apr 11 - 08:02 PM
Charley Noble 05 Apr 11 - 08:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Apr 11 - 08:56 PM
GUEST,mg 05 Apr 11 - 09:56 PM
GUEST,999 05 Apr 11 - 10:27 PM
Donuel 05 Apr 11 - 11:07 PM
GUEST,999 06 Apr 11 - 12:18 AM
GUEST,mg 06 Apr 11 - 12:27 AM
GUEST,999 06 Apr 11 - 12:34 AM
GUEST,mg 06 Apr 11 - 12:35 AM
GUEST,999 06 Apr 11 - 03:11 AM
Donuel 06 Apr 11 - 03:27 AM
GUEST,999 06 Apr 11 - 03:42 AM
Donuel 06 Apr 11 - 03:43 AM
GUEST,999 06 Apr 11 - 04:02 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 06 Apr 11 - 04:39 AM
Jack Campin 06 Apr 11 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 06 Apr 11 - 07:32 AM
Charley Noble 06 Apr 11 - 08:21 AM
gnu 06 Apr 11 - 09:00 AM
gnu 06 Apr 11 - 09:07 AM
Charley Noble 06 Apr 11 - 09:23 AM
Charley Noble 06 Apr 11 - 09:28 AM
3refs 06 Apr 11 - 09:42 AM
GUEST,999 06 Apr 11 - 11:42 AM
Andy Jackson 06 Apr 11 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,999 06 Apr 11 - 12:44 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Apr 11 - 01:19 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Apr 11 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,mg 06 Apr 11 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,mg 06 Apr 11 - 03:27 PM
Jack Campin 06 Apr 11 - 07:43 PM
SINSULL 06 Apr 11 - 08:20 PM
Charley Noble 06 Apr 11 - 11:01 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 07 Apr 11 - 08:02 AM
Charley Noble 07 Apr 11 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 07 Apr 11 - 09:09 AM
Charley Noble 07 Apr 11 - 09:10 AM
Charley Noble 07 Apr 11 - 09:16 AM
GUEST,999 07 Apr 11 - 09:35 AM
Charley Noble 07 Apr 11 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,999 07 Apr 11 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 07 Apr 11 - 11:03 AM
Charley Noble 07 Apr 11 - 11:04 AM
Donuel 07 Apr 11 - 11:07 AM
GUEST,999 07 Apr 11 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,999 07 Apr 11 - 11:27 AM
gnu 07 Apr 11 - 02:12 PM
gnu 07 Apr 11 - 02:20 PM
Charley Noble 07 Apr 11 - 03:06 PM
gnu 07 Apr 11 - 03:07 PM
Charley Noble 07 Apr 11 - 03:12 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Apr 11 - 03:22 PM
gnu 07 Apr 11 - 04:10 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Apr 11 - 05:37 PM
Donuel 07 Apr 11 - 05:40 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Apr 11 - 05:50 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Apr 11 - 05:57 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Apr 11 - 06:00 PM
Donuel 07 Apr 11 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,mg 07 Apr 11 - 06:07 PM
Donuel 07 Apr 11 - 06:27 PM
gnu 07 Apr 11 - 06:46 PM
Andy Jackson 07 Apr 11 - 07:20 PM
GUEST,999 07 Apr 11 - 07:58 PM
gnu 07 Apr 11 - 08:04 PM
Andy Jackson 07 Apr 11 - 08:18 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Apr 11 - 08:35 PM
Charley Noble 07 Apr 11 - 08:52 PM
Charley Noble 07 Apr 11 - 09:15 PM
Donuel 07 Apr 11 - 10:24 PM
Donuel 07 Apr 11 - 11:54 PM
GUEST,999 08 Apr 11 - 01:42 AM
Jack Campin 08 Apr 11 - 05:49 AM
gnu 08 Apr 11 - 05:50 AM
gnu 08 Apr 11 - 05:53 AM
GUEST,999 08 Apr 11 - 05:54 AM
Andy Jackson 08 Apr 11 - 07:29 AM
Jack Campin 08 Apr 11 - 07:46 AM
Charley Noble 08 Apr 11 - 08:19 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 08 Apr 11 - 08:29 AM
Donuel 08 Apr 11 - 11:32 AM
Jack Campin 08 Apr 11 - 12:03 PM
Donuel 08 Apr 11 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,mg 08 Apr 11 - 02:02 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Apr 11 - 02:22 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Apr 11 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,mgq 08 Apr 11 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,999 08 Apr 11 - 03:24 PM
Jack Campin 08 Apr 11 - 04:12 PM
Jack Campin 08 Apr 11 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,mg 08 Apr 11 - 07:22 PM
Donuel 08 Apr 11 - 08:55 PM
Charley Noble 08 Apr 11 - 10:34 PM
Charley Noble 08 Apr 11 - 10:56 PM
Andy Jackson 09 Apr 11 - 03:42 AM
gnu 09 Apr 11 - 06:41 AM
Charley Noble 09 Apr 11 - 10:20 AM
Charley Noble 09 Apr 11 - 10:30 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 09 Apr 11 - 02:39 PM
Charley Noble 09 Apr 11 - 02:57 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 09 Apr 11 - 03:56 PM
Charley Noble 09 Apr 11 - 05:25 PM
GUEST,mg 09 Apr 11 - 06:22 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 09 Apr 11 - 06:59 PM
gnu 10 Apr 11 - 07:48 AM
gnu 10 Apr 11 - 07:52 AM
Charley Noble 10 Apr 11 - 11:37 AM
Charley Noble 10 Apr 11 - 12:10 PM
gnu 10 Apr 11 - 12:32 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 10 Apr 11 - 01:18 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 10 Apr 11 - 01:59 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 10 Apr 11 - 02:03 PM
Charley Noble 10 Apr 11 - 09:23 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 11 Apr 11 - 06:44 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 11 Apr 11 - 06:57 AM
Charley Noble 11 Apr 11 - 07:47 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Apr 11 - 01:35 PM
Charley Noble 11 Apr 11 - 01:57 PM
gnu 11 Apr 11 - 02:28 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Apr 11 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,mg 11 Apr 11 - 03:46 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Apr 11 - 03:48 PM
Charley Noble 11 Apr 11 - 03:54 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Apr 11 - 08:17 PM
Charley Noble 11 Apr 11 - 10:16 PM
Donuel 12 Apr 11 - 01:27 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 12 Apr 11 - 03:38 AM
Charley Noble 12 Apr 11 - 07:25 AM
Charley Noble 12 Apr 11 - 08:03 AM
Donuel 12 Apr 11 - 10:19 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Apr 11 - 12:50 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Apr 11 - 01:12 PM
Donuel 12 Apr 11 - 01:41 PM
gnu 12 Apr 11 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,mg 12 Apr 11 - 01:47 PM
Stringsinger 12 Apr 11 - 04:29 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Apr 11 - 05:11 PM
Charley Noble 12 Apr 11 - 08:32 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 13 Apr 11 - 02:55 AM
Charley Noble 13 Apr 11 - 07:57 AM
Charley Noble 13 Apr 11 - 09:36 AM
Newport Boy 13 Apr 11 - 09:43 AM
Charley Noble 13 Apr 11 - 11:41 AM
Jack Campin 13 Apr 11 - 12:51 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Apr 11 - 02:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Apr 11 - 02:34 PM
Charley Noble 13 Apr 11 - 02:53 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Apr 11 - 03:36 PM
Newport Boy 13 Apr 11 - 04:44 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Apr 11 - 06:10 PM
GUEST,mg 13 Apr 11 - 07:51 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Apr 11 - 09:29 PM
GUEST,mg 13 Apr 11 - 09:37 PM
GUEST,mg 13 Apr 11 - 09:57 PM
gnu 14 Apr 11 - 08:27 AM
Charley Noble 14 Apr 11 - 08:32 AM
Charley Noble 14 Apr 11 - 11:15 AM
Charley Noble 14 Apr 11 - 03:46 PM
gnu 15 Apr 11 - 07:17 AM
Charley Noble 15 Apr 11 - 09:44 AM
Charley Noble 15 Apr 11 - 12:55 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 15 Apr 11 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,mg 15 Apr 11 - 01:59 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Apr 11 - 03:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Apr 11 - 04:06 PM
gnu 15 Apr 11 - 05:59 PM
Bill D 15 Apr 11 - 07:57 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Apr 11 - 09:02 PM
gnu 15 Apr 11 - 09:15 PM
gnu 16 Apr 11 - 05:56 AM
Charley Noble 16 Apr 11 - 08:39 AM
Jack Campin 16 Apr 11 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,mg 16 Apr 11 - 01:59 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Apr 11 - 02:11 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Apr 11 - 02:29 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Apr 11 - 02:32 PM
gnu 16 Apr 11 - 02:41 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Apr 11 - 02:51 PM
gnu 16 Apr 11 - 02:53 PM
Donuel 17 Apr 11 - 02:45 AM
Jack Campin 17 Apr 11 - 07:26 AM
Charley Noble 17 Apr 11 - 08:40 AM
gnu 17 Apr 11 - 12:02 PM
gnu 17 Apr 11 - 12:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Apr 11 - 01:34 PM
gnu 17 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Apr 11 - 03:05 PM
Charley Noble 18 Apr 11 - 09:59 AM
Donuel 18 Apr 11 - 11:21 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Apr 11 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Apr 11 - 02:45 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Apr 11 - 03:04 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Apr 11 - 03:21 PM
gnu 18 Apr 11 - 03:28 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Apr 11 - 03:28 PM
Charley Noble 18 Apr 11 - 09:11 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Apr 11 - 09:20 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Apr 11 - 09:53 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 19 Apr 11 - 08:38 AM
Charley Noble 19 Apr 11 - 09:16 AM
GUEST,mg 19 Apr 11 - 12:59 PM
Charley Noble 19 Apr 11 - 01:12 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Apr 11 - 01:51 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Apr 11 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,mg 19 Apr 11 - 03:15 PM
gnu 19 Apr 11 - 04:31 PM
Charley Noble 19 Apr 11 - 04:31 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Apr 11 - 05:01 PM
gnu 19 Apr 11 - 07:44 PM
Charley Noble 19 Apr 11 - 07:53 PM
Jack Campin 19 Apr 11 - 07:58 PM
gnu 19 Apr 11 - 08:19 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Apr 11 - 08:57 PM
Charley Noble 19 Apr 11 - 09:08 PM
Jack Campin 19 Apr 11 - 09:13 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Apr 11 - 10:31 PM
Jack Campin 20 Apr 11 - 06:14 AM
Charley Noble 20 Apr 11 - 07:56 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Apr 11 - 01:54 PM
gnu 20 Apr 11 - 01:59 PM
gnu 20 Apr 11 - 02:04 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 20 Apr 11 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,mg 20 Apr 11 - 03:49 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Apr 11 - 06:26 PM
GUEST 21 Apr 11 - 08:01 AM
Charley Noble 21 Apr 11 - 08:17 AM
Charley Noble 21 Apr 11 - 11:21 AM
GUEST,mg 21 Apr 11 - 01:14 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Apr 11 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,mg 21 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM
gnu 21 Apr 11 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 21 Apr 11 - 04:08 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Apr 11 - 04:33 PM
gnu 21 Apr 11 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,mg 21 Apr 11 - 10:45 PM
Jack Campin 22 Apr 11 - 08:20 AM
Charley Noble 22 Apr 11 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,999 22 Apr 11 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,mg 22 Apr 11 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,mg 22 Apr 11 - 12:13 PM
Charley Noble 22 Apr 11 - 01:03 PM
gnu 22 Apr 11 - 01:18 PM
gnu 22 Apr 11 - 02:24 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Apr 11 - 02:33 PM
Charley Noble 22 Apr 11 - 05:57 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Apr 11 - 06:10 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Apr 11 - 11:28 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Apr 11 - 11:34 PM
GUEST,mg 22 Apr 11 - 11:50 PM
gnu 23 Apr 11 - 07:42 AM
Charley Noble 23 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM
GUEST,mg 23 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM
gnu 23 Apr 11 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,mg 23 Apr 11 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,mg 23 Apr 11 - 02:24 PM
Charley Noble 23 Apr 11 - 02:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Apr 11 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,mg 23 Apr 11 - 04:31 PM
GUEST,mg 23 Apr 11 - 05:06 PM
Charley Noble 23 Apr 11 - 09:01 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 24 Apr 11 - 10:40 AM
Charley Noble 24 Apr 11 - 11:37 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 24 Apr 11 - 11:52 AM
gnu 24 Apr 11 - 02:15 PM
GUEST,mg 24 Apr 11 - 03:45 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Apr 11 - 04:45 PM
gnu 24 Apr 11 - 04:52 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Apr 11 - 05:55 PM
Charley Noble 24 Apr 11 - 08:24 PM
GUEST,mg 24 Apr 11 - 09:20 PM
GUEST,mg 25 Apr 11 - 12:50 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Apr 11 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,mg 25 Apr 11 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,mg 25 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM
Charley Noble 25 Apr 11 - 08:01 PM
Jack Campin 25 Apr 11 - 08:43 PM
GUEST,mg 26 Apr 11 - 11:15 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Apr 11 - 02:26 PM
Jack Campin 26 Apr 11 - 03:07 PM
GUEST,mg 26 Apr 11 - 03:22 PM
Charley Noble 26 Apr 11 - 03:40 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Apr 11 - 03:44 PM
gnu 26 Apr 11 - 03:54 PM
GUEST,mg 26 Apr 11 - 04:54 PM
GUEST,mg 26 Apr 11 - 05:14 PM
Charley Noble 26 Apr 11 - 09:01 PM
GUEST,mg 26 Apr 11 - 09:41 PM
GUEST,Guest 27 Apr 11 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,mg 27 Apr 11 - 10:48 AM
Donuel 27 Apr 11 - 11:23 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Apr 11 - 12:30 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 11 - 12:59 PM
gnu 27 Apr 11 - 01:27 PM
Jack Campin 27 Apr 11 - 01:31 PM
GUEST,mg 27 Apr 11 - 02:37 PM
Charley Noble 27 Apr 11 - 03:50 PM
Donuel 27 Apr 11 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,mg 27 Apr 11 - 05:36 PM
Jack Campin 27 Apr 11 - 06:17 PM
Donuel 27 Apr 11 - 06:29 PM
Donuel 27 Apr 11 - 06:34 PM
GUEST,mg 27 Apr 11 - 07:03 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Apr 11 - 07:07 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Apr 11 - 07:19 PM
Charley Noble 28 Apr 11 - 01:13 PM
gnu 28 Apr 11 - 02:11 PM
gnu 28 Apr 11 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,mg 28 Apr 11 - 02:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 28 Apr 11 - 04:50 PM
Charley Noble 28 Apr 11 - 06:11 PM
gnu 29 Apr 11 - 05:03 AM
Charley Noble 29 Apr 11 - 08:06 AM
Jack Campin 29 Apr 11 - 08:23 AM
gnu 29 Apr 11 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 01 May 11 - 09:04 AM
gnu 01 May 11 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,mg 01 May 11 - 12:47 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 May 11 - 01:58 PM
Charley Noble 01 May 11 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 02 May 11 - 07:29 AM
Charley Noble 02 May 11 - 07:36 AM
mg 02 May 11 - 11:08 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 May 11 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,mg 02 May 11 - 01:12 PM
Bill D 02 May 11 - 01:22 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 May 11 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,mg 02 May 11 - 03:07 PM
gnu 02 May 11 - 07:11 PM
Charley Noble 02 May 11 - 07:51 PM
Jack Campin 02 May 11 - 09:09 PM
Charley Noble 03 May 11 - 07:53 AM
GUEST,mg 03 May 11 - 12:41 PM
Charley Noble 03 May 11 - 01:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 May 11 - 01:58 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 May 11 - 02:14 PM
Charley Noble 03 May 11 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 04 May 11 - 06:42 AM
Charley Noble 04 May 11 - 09:15 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 May 11 - 12:58 PM
Donuel 04 May 11 - 01:34 PM
gnu 04 May 11 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 05 May 11 - 05:53 AM
Charley Noble 05 May 11 - 07:49 AM
Donuel 05 May 11 - 07:52 AM
Charley Noble 05 May 11 - 12:46 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 May 11 - 12:49 PM
Donuel 05 May 11 - 01:00 PM
Jack Campin 05 May 11 - 01:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 May 11 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,mg 05 May 11 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 06 May 11 - 08:58 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 May 11 - 01:35 PM
gnu 06 May 11 - 06:26 PM
Charley Noble 06 May 11 - 08:43 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 May 11 - 01:20 PM
gnu 07 May 11 - 01:40 PM
Charley Noble 07 May 11 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,mg 07 May 11 - 06:54 PM
gnu 07 May 11 - 06:59 PM
gnu 07 May 11 - 07:17 PM
Charley Noble 07 May 11 - 08:57 PM
gnu 08 May 11 - 09:58 AM
Charley Noble 08 May 11 - 12:25 PM
gnu 08 May 11 - 01:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 May 11 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,mg 08 May 11 - 02:22 PM
gnu 09 May 11 - 12:32 PM
gnu 09 May 11 - 12:34 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 09 May 11 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,mg 09 May 11 - 01:22 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 09 May 11 - 02:50 PM
Jack Campin 09 May 11 - 04:23 PM
gnu 09 May 11 - 04:39 PM
Charley Noble 09 May 11 - 04:41 PM
Jack Campin 09 May 11 - 05:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 09 May 11 - 05:45 PM
gnu 09 May 11 - 07:11 PM
Charley Noble 09 May 11 - 09:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 10 May 11 - 01:05 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 10 May 11 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 10 May 11 - 01:38 PM
Charley Noble 10 May 11 - 03:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 10 May 11 - 04:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 10 May 11 - 04:50 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 May 11 - 12:35 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 12 May 11 - 08:10 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 May 11 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,mg 12 May 11 - 02:11 PM
Donuel 12 May 11 - 04:17 PM
Charley Noble 12 May 11 - 05:44 PM
Charley Noble 12 May 11 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,mg 12 May 11 - 05:56 PM
gnu 13 May 11 - 02:58 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 May 11 - 03:21 PM
gnu 15 May 11 - 07:24 AM
gnu 15 May 11 - 07:33 AM
Charley Noble 15 May 11 - 10:45 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 May 11 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,mg 15 May 11 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 15 May 11 - 07:24 PM
Charley Noble 15 May 11 - 07:58 PM
Jim Martin 15 May 11 - 08:26 PM
Charley Noble 16 May 11 - 08:36 AM
Donuel 16 May 11 - 11:41 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 May 11 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,mg 16 May 11 - 03:40 PM
gnu 16 May 11 - 03:44 PM
Charley Noble 16 May 11 - 09:21 PM
Jack Campin 17 May 11 - 04:41 AM
Charley Noble 17 May 11 - 07:45 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 17 May 11 - 09:13 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 May 11 - 01:34 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 May 11 - 01:41 PM
gnu 17 May 11 - 02:11 PM
Jack Campin 17 May 11 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,mg 17 May 11 - 03:25 PM
gnu 17 May 11 - 03:32 PM
Charley Noble 17 May 11 - 04:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 May 11 - 04:49 PM
GUEST,mg 17 May 11 - 11:21 PM
Charley Noble 18 May 11 - 08:53 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 May 11 - 11:48 AM
Charley Noble 18 May 11 - 01:30 PM
gnu 18 May 11 - 01:49 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 May 11 - 02:23 PM
gnu 18 May 11 - 02:34 PM
Charley Noble 19 May 11 - 09:37 PM
GUEST,mg 19 May 11 - 09:57 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 20 May 11 - 11:36 AM
Charley Noble 20 May 11 - 01:23 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 May 11 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,mg 20 May 11 - 03:38 PM
Charley Noble 21 May 11 - 09:44 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 May 11 - 01:56 PM
gnu 21 May 11 - 02:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 May 11 - 07:54 PM
gnu 21 May 11 - 10:11 PM
Charley Noble 21 May 11 - 11:36 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 May 11 - 02:09 PM
gnu 22 May 11 - 03:39 PM
Charley Noble 22 May 11 - 06:28 PM
GUEST,mg 22 May 11 - 07:28 PM
gnu 22 May 11 - 07:47 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 May 11 - 08:29 PM
gnu 24 May 11 - 05:09 PM
Jack Campin 24 May 11 - 06:12 PM
Charley Noble 24 May 11 - 06:22 PM
Charley Noble 27 May 11 - 07:52 PM
gnu 27 May 11 - 08:59 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 28 May 11 - 07:24 AM
Charley Noble 28 May 11 - 09:58 AM
Charley Noble 28 May 11 - 10:03 AM
Ebbie 28 May 11 - 11:53 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 28 May 11 - 01:03 PM
Charley Noble 28 May 11 - 01:35 PM
gnu 28 May 11 - 01:45 PM
gnu 28 May 11 - 01:48 PM
Jim Martin 30 May 11 - 04:32 AM
Charley Noble 30 May 11 - 10:09 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 May 11 - 02:16 PM
gnu 30 May 11 - 03:49 PM
gnu 30 May 11 - 05:01 PM
Charley Noble 30 May 11 - 08:00 PM
Jack Campin 30 May 11 - 08:15 PM
Charley Noble 31 May 11 - 07:54 AM
gnu 31 May 11 - 02:01 PM
Charley Noble 31 May 11 - 08:49 PM
Donuel 01 Jun 11 - 07:20 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 01 Jun 11 - 07:38 AM
Donuel 01 Jun 11 - 09:02 AM
Charley Noble 01 Jun 11 - 09:07 AM
Charley Noble 01 Jun 11 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,mg 02 Jun 11 - 03:23 PM
gnu 02 Jun 11 - 03:42 PM
Charley Noble 02 Jun 11 - 08:57 PM
GUEST,mg 03 Jun 11 - 01:09 AM
Charley Noble 03 Jun 11 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 04 Jun 11 - 10:26 AM
Jack Campin 07 Jun 11 - 06:33 AM
Charley Noble 07 Jun 11 - 07:58 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Jun 11 - 03:58 PM
Donuel 07 Jun 11 - 04:30 PM
gnu 07 Jun 11 - 08:06 PM
Jack Campin 07 Jun 11 - 09:05 PM
Charley Noble 07 Jun 11 - 09:37 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 08 Jun 11 - 03:42 AM
Charley Noble 08 Jun 11 - 09:27 AM
Donuel 08 Jun 11 - 01:41 PM
gnu 08 Jun 11 - 02:22 PM
Charley Noble 08 Jun 11 - 02:39 PM
gnu 08 Jun 11 - 02:45 PM
Donuel 08 Jun 11 - 03:17 PM
gnu 08 Jun 11 - 03:38 PM
Donuel 08 Jun 11 - 03:39 PM
gnu 12 Jun 11 - 05:20 PM
Charley Noble 13 Jun 11 - 12:03 PM
gnu 13 Jun 11 - 05:26 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Jun 11 - 08:26 PM
gnu 13 Jun 11 - 09:04 PM
gnu 14 Jun 11 - 07:23 PM
Charley Noble 14 Jun 11 - 07:23 PM
Jack Campin 17 Jun 11 - 06:42 AM
Charley Noble 17 Jun 11 - 09:12 AM
Charley Noble 17 Jun 11 - 09:16 AM
Charley Noble 17 Jun 11 - 10:44 AM
Jack Campin 17 Jun 11 - 08:34 PM
gnu 17 Jun 11 - 10:09 PM
Jim Martin 18 Jun 11 - 05:32 AM
Charley Noble 18 Jun 11 - 12:09 PM
Charley Noble 18 Jun 11 - 01:14 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Jun 11 - 01:18 PM
gnu 18 Jun 11 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Jun 11 - 05:29 PM
Jack Campin 19 Jun 11 - 04:58 AM
Jack Campin 19 Jun 11 - 05:34 AM
Jack Campin 19 Jun 11 - 07:06 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 20 Jun 11 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 20 Jun 11 - 03:50 PM
gnu 20 Jun 11 - 04:06 PM
Jack Campin 20 Jun 11 - 04:30 PM
Donuel 20 Jun 11 - 09:18 PM
gnu 21 Jun 11 - 06:10 PM
Charley Noble 21 Jun 11 - 10:14 PM
Charley Noble 22 Jun 11 - 11:09 AM
Jim Martin 26 Jun 11 - 08:24 AM
Charley Noble 26 Jun 11 - 09:22 AM
Charley Noble 27 Jun 11 - 08:10 AM
SINSULL 27 Jun 11 - 11:51 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Jun 11 - 01:40 PM
Charley Noble 27 Jun 11 - 08:32 PM
gnu 29 Jun 11 - 06:48 PM
Jack Campin 29 Jun 11 - 08:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Jun 11 - 08:43 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Jun 11 - 09:02 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Jun 11 - 09:12 PM
Charley Noble 29 Jun 11 - 11:01 PM
Jack Campin 30 Jun 11 - 01:47 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Jun 11 - 02:26 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 30 Jun 11 - 04:53 PM
gnu 30 Jun 11 - 07:10 PM
Charley Noble 02 Jul 11 - 10:02 AM
gnu 02 Jul 11 - 01:10 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Jul 11 - 02:52 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Jul 11 - 02:55 PM
Ebbie 03 Jul 11 - 03:02 PM
gnu 03 Jul 11 - 03:37 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jul 11 - 04:01 PM
Charley Noble 03 Jul 11 - 04:41 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jul 11 - 06:46 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jul 11 - 07:00 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jul 11 - 07:08 PM
Charley Noble 03 Jul 11 - 08:19 PM
Jim Martin 05 Jul 11 - 03:13 AM
Charley Noble 05 Jul 11 - 07:32 AM
Jim Martin 06 Jul 11 - 07:02 AM
Jack Campin 06 Jul 11 - 03:51 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Jul 11 - 07:46 PM
Jim Martin 07 Jul 11 - 06:35 AM
Charley Noble 07 Jul 11 - 07:39 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Jul 11 - 01:56 PM
Charley Noble 07 Jul 11 - 08:16 PM
Jim Martin 08 Jul 11 - 06:23 AM
Charley Noble 08 Jul 11 - 11:44 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Jul 11 - 03:23 PM
gnu 08 Jul 11 - 05:33 PM
Jim Martin 09 Jul 11 - 06:34 AM
Jim Martin 10 Jul 11 - 03:28 AM
gnu 10 Jul 11 - 10:15 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 10 Jul 11 - 01:18 PM
gnu 10 Jul 11 - 01:43 PM
Charley Noble 10 Jul 11 - 03:08 PM
Jack Campin 13 Jul 11 - 10:54 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Jul 11 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,mg 13 Jul 11 - 05:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Jul 11 - 06:01 PM
gnu 13 Jul 11 - 07:17 PM
Charley Noble 13 Jul 11 - 11:00 PM
mg 13 Jul 11 - 11:05 PM
gnu 14 Jul 11 - 02:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 Jul 11 - 02:54 PM
gnu 14 Jul 11 - 03:40 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 Jul 11 - 05:24 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 Jul 11 - 05:44 PM
gnu 14 Jul 11 - 06:13 PM
Charley Noble 14 Jul 11 - 06:48 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 Jul 11 - 08:37 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 15 Jul 11 - 07:28 AM
Charley Noble 15 Jul 11 - 08:20 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Jul 11 - 02:21 PM
Donuel 16 Jul 11 - 12:18 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jul 11 - 02:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jul 11 - 02:52 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jul 11 - 03:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jul 11 - 03:34 PM
gnu 16 Jul 11 - 03:43 PM
mg 16 Jul 11 - 09:24 PM
Charley Noble 16 Jul 11 - 10:18 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Jul 11 - 02:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Jul 11 - 08:31 PM
Charley Noble 17 Jul 11 - 11:26 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 18 Jul 11 - 05:53 AM
Charley Noble 18 Jul 11 - 08:26 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Jul 11 - 04:34 PM
gnu 18 Jul 11 - 04:45 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Jul 11 - 07:04 PM
gnu 18 Jul 11 - 07:16 PM
Charley Noble 18 Jul 11 - 07:54 PM
gnu 19 Jul 11 - 03:21 PM
gnu 19 Jul 11 - 03:40 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Jul 11 - 05:27 PM
maeve 19 Jul 11 - 05:31 PM
Jim Martin 22 Jul 11 - 08:00 AM
Donuel 22 Jul 11 - 08:35 AM
Charley Noble 22 Jul 11 - 09:42 AM
gnu 22 Jul 11 - 12:48 PM
Mrrzy 23 Jul 11 - 10:49 AM
gnu 23 Jul 11 - 06:33 PM
Charley Noble 26 Jul 11 - 01:04 PM
gnu 26 Jul 11 - 01:37 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Jul 11 - 01:45 PM
Charley Noble 26 Jul 11 - 04:10 PM
gnu 26 Jul 11 - 04:47 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 26 Jul 11 - 05:45 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 31 Jul 11 - 05:45 AM
Charley Noble 31 Jul 11 - 09:43 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 31 Jul 11 - 12:55 PM
gnu 31 Jul 11 - 02:34 PM
Charley Noble 31 Jul 11 - 02:42 PM
Jack Campin 31 Jul 11 - 06:42 PM
gnu 31 Jul 11 - 07:06 PM
GUEST,mg 31 Jul 11 - 08:26 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 02 Aug 11 - 10:32 AM
Donuel 02 Aug 11 - 05:12 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Aug 11 - 06:51 PM
Charley Noble 02 Aug 11 - 07:08 PM
Donuel 02 Aug 11 - 07:15 PM
Jack Campin 02 Aug 11 - 07:16 PM
Jack Campin 02 Aug 11 - 07:42 PM
Charley Noble 02 Aug 11 - 08:32 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Aug 11 - 09:57 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 03 Aug 11 - 10:07 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Aug 11 - 02:22 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Aug 11 - 02:35 PM
gnu 03 Aug 11 - 02:47 PM
Jack Campin 10 Aug 11 - 04:18 PM
gnu 10 Aug 11 - 07:05 PM
Charley Noble 10 Aug 11 - 10:56 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Aug 11 - 09:46 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Aug 11 - 10:05 PM
Charley Noble 12 Aug 11 - 07:47 AM
Charley Noble 18 Aug 11 - 07:45 PM
gnu 18 Aug 11 - 08:05 PM
Charley Noble 18 Aug 11 - 08:34 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 19 Aug 11 - 07:57 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Aug 11 - 01:57 PM
GUEST 20 Aug 11 - 04:21 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 20 Aug 11 - 05:06 AM
Charley Noble 20 Aug 11 - 09:15 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Aug 11 - 03:29 PM
gnu 20 Aug 11 - 03:32 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Aug 11 - 05:35 PM
gnu 20 Aug 11 - 08:43 PM
Charley Noble 21 Aug 11 - 11:09 AM
gnu 21 Aug 11 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 22 Aug 11 - 03:01 PM
gnu 22 Aug 11 - 04:06 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Aug 11 - 07:38 PM
Charley Noble 22 Aug 11 - 08:01 PM
Jim Martin 23 Aug 11 - 07:12 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Aug 11 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 28 Aug 11 - 10:27 AM
gnu 28 Aug 11 - 11:50 AM
dick greenhaus 28 Aug 11 - 05:47 PM
Jim Martin 29 Aug 11 - 07:48 AM
Jim Martin 29 Aug 11 - 07:57 AM
gnu 03 Sep 11 - 03:28 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Sep 11 - 04:00 PM
gnu 03 Sep 11 - 04:07 PM
Charley Noble 03 Sep 11 - 04:23 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Sep 11 - 04:50 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 03 Sep 11 - 04:54 PM
Jim Martin 08 Sep 11 - 07:52 AM
Charley Noble 08 Sep 11 - 09:51 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Sep 11 - 02:02 PM
Jim Martin 10 Sep 11 - 05:46 AM
Jim Martin 10 Sep 11 - 05:50 AM
Jim Martin 10 Sep 11 - 05:54 AM
Jim Martin 11 Sep 11 - 10:44 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Sep 11 - 01:26 PM
Charley Noble 11 Sep 11 - 02:26 PM
gnu 12 Sep 11 - 11:33 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Sep 11 - 03:33 PM
gnu 13 Sep 11 - 03:00 PM
Charley Noble 13 Sep 11 - 05:37 PM
Jack Campin 13 Sep 11 - 05:45 PM
GUEST,999 13 Sep 11 - 08:04 PM
Charley Noble 13 Sep 11 - 08:15 PM
GUEST,999 13 Sep 11 - 08:19 PM
GUEST,999 13 Sep 11 - 08:39 PM
gnu 13 Sep 11 - 08:47 PM
GUEST 13 Sep 11 - 09:49 PM
Charley Noble 23 Sep 11 - 08:19 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 23 Sep 11 - 03:55 PM
Charley Noble 23 Sep 11 - 05:58 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Oct 11 - 07:02 PM
gnu 01 Oct 11 - 07:15 PM
Charley Noble 02 Oct 11 - 11:14 AM
gnu 02 Oct 11 - 05:49 PM
GUEST,mg 02 Oct 11 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 13 Oct 11 - 11:28 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Oct 11 - 04:11 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Oct 11 - 04:14 PM
Charley Noble 13 Oct 11 - 04:41 PM
gnu 13 Oct 11 - 04:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Oct 11 - 06:57 PM
gnu 19 Oct 11 - 10:20 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Oct 11 - 02:34 PM
gnu 19 Oct 11 - 02:46 PM
Charley Noble 19 Oct 11 - 05:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Oct 11 - 09:04 PM
GUEST,Jack Campin 20 Oct 11 - 06:28 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Oct 11 - 03:57 PM
Charley Noble 20 Oct 11 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 02 Nov 11 - 08:07 AM
Charley Noble 02 Nov 11 - 10:58 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 03 Nov 11 - 03:09 AM
Charley Noble 03 Nov 11 - 03:52 PM
gnu 03 Nov 11 - 04:09 PM
Charley Noble 03 Nov 11 - 04:58 PM
gnu 03 Nov 11 - 05:00 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Nov 11 - 05:23 PM
gnu 03 Nov 11 - 06:28 PM
dick greenhaus 03 Nov 11 - 09:19 PM
Charley Noble 07 Nov 11 - 04:52 PM
gnu 07 Nov 11 - 05:00 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Nov 11 - 06:20 PM
Charley Noble 07 Nov 11 - 08:16 PM
Jim Martin 08 Nov 11 - 09:23 AM
gnu 08 Nov 11 - 11:07 AM
Jack Campin 08 Nov 11 - 12:12 PM
gnu 08 Nov 11 - 02:06 PM
Charley Noble 08 Nov 11 - 09:04 PM
dick greenhaus 09 Nov 11 - 12:30 AM
Jim Martin 09 Nov 11 - 08:55 AM
Jack Campin 09 Nov 11 - 09:13 AM
Charley Noble 09 Nov 11 - 10:11 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 09 Nov 11 - 04:55 PM
gnu 09 Nov 11 - 09:04 PM
Charley Noble 09 Nov 11 - 10:17 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 09 Nov 11 - 11:06 PM
GUEST 10 Nov 11 - 01:02 PM
gnu 10 Nov 11 - 01:04 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 12 Nov 11 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 12 Nov 11 - 10:16 AM
Charley Noble 12 Nov 11 - 10:23 AM
GUEST,Ebbie 12 Nov 11 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 12 Nov 11 - 02:15 PM
Jack Campin 25 Nov 11 - 11:35 AM
Charley Noble 25 Nov 11 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 02 Dec 11 - 03:34 AM
Charley Noble 02 Dec 11 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 02 Dec 11 - 10:54 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Dec 11 - 02:34 PM
gnu 02 Dec 11 - 03:08 PM
Jim Martin 03 Dec 11 - 07:17 AM
Charley Noble 03 Dec 11 - 09:22 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Dec 11 - 03:19 PM
Stringsinger 04 Dec 11 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 04 Dec 11 - 02:47 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Dec 11 - 04:33 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 05 Dec 11 - 05:00 AM
Jack Campin 05 Dec 11 - 07:12 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 08 Dec 11 - 04:54 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 08 Dec 11 - 07:55 AM
Charley Noble 08 Dec 11 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 09 Dec 11 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 09 Dec 11 - 12:40 PM
Jim Martin 03 Jan 12 - 08:47 AM
Charley Noble 03 Jan 12 - 08:51 AM
Jack Campin 10 Jan 12 - 08:01 PM
gnu 10 Jan 12 - 09:00 PM
Jack Campin 10 Jan 12 - 09:04 PM
Charley Noble 10 Jan 12 - 09:12 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 12 Feb 12 - 09:46 AM
Charley Noble 12 Feb 12 - 10:06 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Feb 12 - 02:54 PM
Charley Noble 12 Feb 12 - 04:06 PM
gnu 17 Feb 12 - 04:06 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Feb 12 - 04:18 PM
gnu 17 Feb 12 - 04:30 PM
Donuel 17 Feb 12 - 05:55 PM
Charley Noble 17 Feb 12 - 11:24 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Feb 12 - 04:00 PM
gnu 18 Feb 12 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,Jim Martin 23 Feb 12 - 05:32 AM
Charley Noble 23 Feb 12 - 07:26 AM
Charley Noble 28 Feb 12 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 28 Feb 12 - 03:58 PM
Charley Noble 28 Feb 12 - 04:58 PM
Charley Noble 29 Feb 12 - 01:40 PM
Jim Martin 29 Feb 12 - 09:33 PM
Charley Noble 01 Mar 12 - 08:43 AM
Charley Noble 06 Mar 12 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 07 Mar 12 - 08:07 AM
gnu 07 Mar 12 - 03:27 PM
Charley Noble 07 Mar 12 - 10:47 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 08 Mar 12 - 09:57 AM
Jack Campin 18 Mar 12 - 08:56 PM
gnu 19 Mar 12 - 03:53 PM
Charley Noble 19 Mar 12 - 05:24 PM
Jim Martin 29 Mar 12 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 29 Mar 12 - 08:01 AM
Charley Noble 29 Mar 12 - 08:26 AM
gnu 29 Mar 12 - 03:30 PM
gnu 04 Apr 12 - 04:20 PM
Charley Noble 05 Apr 12 - 08:05 AM
gnu 18 Apr 12 - 03:36 PM
Charley Noble 18 Apr 12 - 09:19 PM
gnu 16 May 12 - 06:20 PM
Charley Noble 17 May 12 - 08:49 AM
gnu 28 May 12 - 03:00 PM
Charley Noble 28 May 12 - 04:02 PM
gnu 28 May 12 - 07:25 PM
gnu 28 May 12 - 07:32 PM
bobad 29 May 12 - 06:28 AM
Charley Noble 29 May 12 - 08:41 AM
Donuel 29 May 12 - 10:04 AM
Charley Noble 29 May 12 - 11:44 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 May 12 - 02:28 PM
Charley Noble 30 May 12 - 07:39 AM
Charley Noble 30 May 12 - 07:48 AM
Desert Dancer 30 May 12 - 07:45 PM
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Subject: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 08:20 PM

Japan's oldest reactor is now 1000% more radioactive than yesterday.
An explosion is a possible outcome.
A meltdown of les destructive proportions is also possible.

If it explodes (and it could) it will be a fission event with more fuel than any ever detonated on earth.

IF TWO OR MORE NUCLEAR PLANTS IN JAPAN MELTDOWN BEYOND THE CONTAINMENT BUILDING:

Wind currents will disperse radioactive cesium, Iodine, Strontium, plutonium and other nasty atoms world wide.

Of the dizens if nuclear plants in Japan, currently the oldest one bulit in 1960 and finished in 1970 is in the most serious condition of being unable to cool the fuel rods which are now venting radiactive steam. Once the un-cooled water turns entirely to steam the fuel will melt and may or may not be contained in the old brittle vessel. The steel in an old plant being bombarded by protons and neutrons for decades will behave like steet that is hundreds of years old. If heated or cooled rapidly the steel will crack wide open. This N plant has no electricity to run the cooling pumps after the back up generators flooded, the back up batteries have run out hours ago.
This part is speculative but when it was reported that Russia and America are rushing "COOLANT" to Japan's N plant it may be referring to powered boroon to dump on top of the reactor to ease the risk of ...gulp detonation...the same way Russian firefighters did on Chernobyl. All the first responding firefighters who dumped the boron from helicopters died within weeks.

A second critical N plant is also having trouble cooling down.


Hillary Clinton said we are sending coolant to Japan. The airforce says they they do not know of any flights of coolant.
(Maybe we shipped it Federal Express?!)



How will a looming nuclear disaster as well as the earthquake (which pales in comparison), effect the rest of the world?

Financially only about 10 to 20% of Japan's losses are covered by insurance.

Insurance does not cover natural disasters of nuclear accidents. Even your home owners policy will say this.
The special insurance for natural and atomic accidents is sold in large part by AIG. 70% of AIG is in receivership to the taxpayers of the US. AIG would need a bail out to cover the pay outs.

Toyota and Nissan are shut down with no reopen date in mind.

Imagine buying a product from Japan you might suspect of being radioactive. Not good for business.

Hyundai will take over the Toyota market share of Toyota and Nissan for a year or more.

Japan has a current debt margin of 200% compared to the United States debt margin of 25%

After WW2 the US had a margin of 100.



The US will have to provide money and resources equivalent to what we spend in Iraq and Afghanistan every week which is about 2.5 billion.
If we are serious about saving Japan, we should consider declaring victory in Afghanistan this coming Monday and shift to help Japan. As Bush senior said "Na-gonna-doit"



If it melts but does not go critical it is difficult to ever clean up as water explodes from a deep radioactive hole in the ground. If the Zircon shield at the bottom of the reactor holds the way the 3 Mile Island Plant did, we all be very lucky indeed. Since the N plants are next to the sea. I'm sure you can see the difficulty containing the problem if it goes catastrophic.



Again if the N plants (one or more) melt down there will be more death in slow motion over decades.

There is no such thing as one possible outcome.

The outcome of a meltdown ranges from an enormous bomb event to a persistent radiation event

WHAT CAN YOU DO?
In the weeks to come please buy and take Iodine pills as directed. Stop drinking milk and cheeses made after the end of March.
Monitor/measure radioactivity in outside swimming pools.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 08:28 PM

Worst case scenario is that Japan will lose over half of thier Island nation to an uninhabited danger zone similar to a Chrnobyl death zone.

Best case scenario, the plant is saved in the nick of time and the damage is limited to the readioactive steam that has already been released.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 08:31 PM

This could very well be as bad as Chernobyl if they can't get the bad-boy cooled down... And fast... Make Three Mile Island look like a pleasant Sunday afternoon picnic...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 08:33 PM

They are completely different kinds of reactors but the U238 and PU are the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 09:17 PM

The radioactivity is 8 times normal and rising outside the plant.
We are officially 8 to 12 houra away from some form of a melt down event.

My Pharmacy did not have any dietary Idodine. Seaweed is high in Iodine. It prevents the uptake of radioactive Iodine in your Thyroid gland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 10:01 PM

5 seperate Japanese reactors are at this moment hours away from meltdowns.

tick tick tick


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 10:21 PM

Heeeeere's the best link


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 10:22 PM

I checked at my pharmacy for iodine too...I am SOL if it happens. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 10:23 PM

... tick ... tick ... tick

and the suckers do meltdown the prevailing jet stream winds could pick up some of that stuff blow it from Japan directly across the Pacific ocean to the west coast of the United States.


biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 10:25 PM

Here is the actual meltdown


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 10:31 PM

Georgia Tech Nuclear expert: Japan's nuclear plant doesn't sound dire

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By Ty Tagami
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

The alarming news coming from Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant doesn't worry one of Atlanta's experts on nuclear reactors.


Farzad Rahnema, a Georgia Tech professor of nuclear engineering, had been reading stories that hinted at the possibility of a meltdown at the plant, which was shaken by the massive earthquake there. But he said the details he'd gleaned from those accounts, and from industry reports, suggested that a meltdown was unlikely.

The word conjures images of the Chernobyl plant in the former Soviet Union, and the devastation it wrought when its reactor melted down. Will the Fukushima plant disgorge hot nuclear fuel, dumping radiation into the air and sea?

"I don't think this thing is anywhere close to that," said Rahnema, who studies reactor safety. He added a caveat -- his opinion was based on "sketchy" details. But he said the fact that plant officials hadn't deemed it necessary to activate an emergency cooling system was reassuring.

Despite a loss of power to the plant's primary cooling system, it appeared officials were able to obtain backup power, he said, basing that opinion on a terse statement issued by the Tokyo Electric Power Company at about 4 p.m. Friday Atlanta time. It said the water level necessary to cool the reactor fuel had been "maintained."

That wouldn't have been possible without backup power, Rahnema said. "If the water level in the reactor is maintained," he said, "that's good news."

Even if the reactor core were to melt down, Rahnema said it probably would not produce the dire consequences seen in Chernobyl. That plant had few of the safety features required in Japan. Even if the Fukushima reactor were to melt the central pressure vessel that contains it, he said, the radioactive fuel would still be held within a concrete containment, something he said was lacking in the Chernobyl design.

Still, if officials cannot get the plant online, they'll have to control the temperature of the nuclear fuels with standby power, possibly for months. The nuclear reaction will continue at least that long, Rahnema said.

The nuclear reactions "have a long half life, so they continue creating heat," he said. But the heat from the reaction drops significantly within a day after the reactor is shut down, to as little as 1 percent of the amount when it was at full power, he said. "It's easy to manage."


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 10:34 PM

It is generally accepted that nuclear plants cannot explode through anything except planned detonation (i.e., an attack of some kind), and then it is not a nuclear explosion. A meltdown can release significant radiation, such as at Chernobyl, but probably only if the plant is as badly maintained as that one was. Most likely there would be no measurable release of radiation, which was the case at TMI. The "100% increase of radiation" reported by some media sources refers to radiation in the plant control room, which is normally a shirt-sleeves environment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 10:36 PM

He os nearly as funny as Dr. Strangelove


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 10:36 PM

Well ..... I'm not taking any chances kids ... first thing in the morning I'm heading down to the City Market and stocking up on as much Grand Manaan dulse I can get my hands on !

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 10:38 PM

I believe that if the interior pressure builds to a high enough level, the containment could burst and release a lot more radiation than what escapes in the controlled venting process. Perhaps that's what was meant by "explosion".


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 01:26 AM

After all, panic is so much more fun than looking at the problem soberly.

"Panic early and often" seems to be the motto for some prolific posters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 01:50 AM

So...you object to people looking calmly and soberly at a crisis in Lybia and not urging immediate drastic action!!!

And you recommend that people look calmly and soberly at a crisis in Japan...and not panic.

Why does no one here seem to measure up to your high expectations, Ron?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 02:02 AM

Jeri, both of your scenarios are possible. If a steam explosion breaks the pipes and containment vessel it would lead to meltdown which carries with it a small chance of a nuclear explosion. If it blows the top off the reactor we could pour Boron on the core as well as water. It would be fatal to all who did so but they could save Japan from a fission nightmare. A steam explosion would also hasten the loss of all water, which would require working pumps to add more immediately.

It feels creepy to be on a media black out over night. I am not getting any shortwave tonight.



Ron, So true.

I recall (among others) posting extensively on the looming economic disaster 4 years before it occured.
I recall posting with passionate panic on the corporate take over of the United States and the looming gilded age destroying what was left of the middle class.
I recall positing often regarding the Bush administration and the social economic folly of the Iraq war.
I posted early regarding bio warefare research efforts that could...Oops I guess I was wrong about that one.

If you think I am prolific for posting for a day or two every other week, thank you. Funny as it sounds that bi monthly schedule is the only time I am capable of contributing.
You are probably reffering to Amos, LH, Bobert,Raparree, Bill, Don Firth, Old dude, Odd dude, Ellie, Carol, Ron and a gentle hoard of others are the true prolific contributors.

Panic is not recommended no matter what the outcome of the 5 N plants which only have hours to be saved.

Will we learn of the heros who save the Earth from the first total critical explosion of hundreds of tons of Uranium?
Will they gain control in timeTune in again next week for the next episode of "Your Ass on a Plate"?...brought to you by big business and the fuck you lobby associates of Washington DC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 04:45 AM

De we know if the lost coolant is sodium, as in many plants?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 04:54 AM

A bit late to discuss whether or not explosion is possible at all:

Footage of massive explosion at Fukushima 1


First reports indicate outside panelling has been blown off the reactor building.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 04:57 AM

Sodium is not used in "many" nuclear plants, only fast breeders. Japan doesn't have any of those.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:09 AM

We are officially 8 to 12 hours away from some form of a melt down event. [Donuel - 11 March 9.17PM Mudcat Time]

I've just been looking at the latest news clips from CNN and other sources - all of them reporting within the last hour or so.

There appears to be little or no change in the current state of the reactor. There has been some recording of a slight increase in radiation levels in the immediate vicinity of the plant. The reported explosion within the plant has not been linked to any direct nuclear-related fault, and scientists and engineers in the plant are working on the cooling system at the moment. People in the vicinity of the plant have been evacuated. Extra coolant is being brought to the country from the US.

It's a serious business - but one which is being tackled as efficiently and as properly as the Japanese can - and they have some very expert people in the nuclear industry.

Now - all of that may be short-sighted and over-optimistic. How am I to know? But it's equally short-sighted to post panic-riddled prophecies of doom when most of us are thousands of miles away from knowing the reality of the situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:26 AM

"Extra coolant is being brought to the country from the US."

Water?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:30 AM

3 Mile Island

The Japan Syndrome.

Pull your foreskin over your head, and kiss your ass goodbye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:39 AM

There is a red flash just visible at the instant of explosion.
Not just steam pressure.
If no sodium is present, water must have reacted with the fuel itself to release hydrogen.
That means radioactive escape.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:54 AM

Perhaps, not withstanding their prior experience of quite serious earthquakes , it was not such a brilliant idea for the Nipponese to construct nuclear -power plants close to a fault-line ?? Surely this is , and always has been, an accident -in-waiting ??


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 08:46 AM

I mentioned a few years back (five or six) that imo nuclear power is usually ok. HOWEVER, of the approximate 450 plants in the world, more than half needed IMMEDIATE refurbishment. They haven't been getting the repairs they need. I got laughed and hissed off the 'cat for pointing that out. Today, allow me to point out that the number in dire need of repair is closer to 60%. I hope it's real funny now!

Sour grapes? Yer fuckin' right. And when the Japanese mess is sorted--as I pray for my children it will be--we'll forget about it and go along as we always have. Doing bugger all about it, sucking gas outta the ground and trading away our children's future for the toys: ATVs, SUVs, gas guzzlers, electric toothbrushes, hair dryers and damned near anything else that will make sure WE use it before our rotten kids get THEIR hands on it.

I think that if humanity wants to survive, we gotta find a new way to do business and live this life. The dirtiest bastards are those who play games with oil; the other dirtiest bastards are multi-nationals for their complete exploitation of people, and the other dirtiest bastards are those who make weapons of war. Learning one's lesson the hard way is NOT necessarily the best way to learn. So, assuming Japan is able to get the nuclear genie under control, what will WE do as people to help make a future for our kids that doesn't involve them having to take iodine pills and having to wear radiation suits to go play outside? At this juncture, it might be a good time to make a commitment and stand up to these bastards. But wait a minute, there's a show on and I just HATE to miss it. It's about these people stranded on and island and they might vote Josh off . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 09:46 AM

The Fuk U Shima nuclear plant is an old fashioned water reactor.

At the more southern plant one reactor has now EXPLODED in a huge steam and hydrogen explosion.
From a camera aboard a ship 2 miles away you can see the explosion send a shock wave of steeam and concrete over 500 feet into the air followed by the dusty debris and vapor. What pipes that delivered water and circulated water coolant are certainly destoryed in the explosion.

IT can not be helped by generraators now and is destined to continue to cascade to various forms of meltdown.

spraying sea water on the possibly blown open reactor will cause enviormental damage in a desperate trade off to prevent a critical mass explosion or a meltdown through the containment concrete floor.

If the containment building miraculously survided the immense steam explosion plain old seawater could be pumped by fire trucks into the core but the run off and exposure will certainly cause fatal exposure to any hero who volunteers for such duty.

The tally stands at one critical exploded reactor among 5 critical reactors.

(This Spockian philosophy has never applied to Wall St.)

The needs of the many outwieghs the needs of the few.
In all there is over 100 tons of highly enriched Uranium in those reactors!

What ever downplaying and soft soap pedeling that you may hear over the next week, know that this is a global poisoning event.




PS Huckabee has already begun to campaign on this issue saying that the United Sates should not spend a dime on Japan because of our looming debt.

To think he was a preacher, how sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:03 AM

It seems all the reactors were successfully shut down - i.e. the fuel is now intermixed with rods of neutron-absorbing material. They can't go critical (bomb-style explosion). What's generating the heat is decay of fission products.

IF everything can be kept under control for a day or two, things get a lot more manageable, as the decay energy of the fission products drops off quite quickly.

Still a godawful mess to deal with afterwards, probably about as expensive as Chernobyl. No chance that a private company would have the funds to fix the damage. Anybody know about TEPCO's ownership?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:04 AM

According to the most recent reports - which are subject to updating, of course - there has been no damage to the containment chamber at the Fukushima Daiichi plant; radiation levels are dropping and internal pressure is decreasing. The explosion, regardless of how devastating it seems to be from a distance, involved only exterior portions of the reactor complex and not the reactor itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:06 AM

"An explosion at a nuclear power station today destroyed a building housing the reactor amid fears that it could melt down after being hit by a powerful earthquake and tsunami.

Large amounts of radiation were spewing out and the evacuation area around the plant was expanded but officials did not know how dangerous the leak was to people. Shinji Kinjo, a spokesman for the Japanese nuclear agency, could not say how much radiation was in the atmosphere or how hot the reactor was following the failure of its cooling system.

Tokyo Power Electric Co., the utility that runs the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant, said four workers had suffered fractures and bruises and were being treated at a hospital. A NUCLEAR EXPERT SAID A MELTDOWN MAY NOT POSE WIDESPREAD DANGER" (emphasis added WHAT!!!).

This situation is not going to get better, as I feared yesterday.

The process in review:

The earthquake cut off conventional power to the nuclear plant with its four reactors.

Back-up generators kicked in as planned to power the coolant pumps.

Then the tsunami knocked out some of the back-up generators, leaving two of the reactors with no power except for batteries.

Hyrdogen gas began to build up within the containment area (which is why they were venting radioactive steam yesterday) and this morning there was most likely a hydrogen explosion which has blown apart one of the buildings.

What's not clear to me is whether the reactor vessel has been breached in this explosion, or whether that vessel is surrounded by an additional dome. In any case there seems no way to avert a meltdown of this reactor's fuel rods with further explosions, which could trigger further damage and explosions to the adjacent reactors.

This is not good and that's why further evacuations are taking place.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: number 6
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:08 AM

Politicians and preachers ..... forget fucking sad .... more like fucking angry.

as the song states ..

"Goddamn it!
Tryin' to make it real, compared to what"

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:10 AM

The Fukushima nuclear plant in Fukushima prefecture in northeastern Japan is pictured in a 2008 file photo. (Xinhua/Kyodo file photo)
TOKYO, March 12 (Xinhua) -- The Japanese government confirmed Saturday that while an explosion did occur at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant earlier in the day, the blast did not happen at the location of its No. 1 reactor.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said at an emergency press conference convened in Tokyo that owner and operator of the nuclear facility, Tokyo Electric Power Co., has confirmed that the steel container housing the reactor is intact.

Edano said that the blast, which occurred at 3:36 p.m. local time (0636 GMT), destroyed the roof and the walls of the reactor's outer container.

Authorities added that whilst the evacuation zone has been increased from a 10-kilometer radius for the Fukushima No. 1 and the troubled No. 2 plants to a 20-kilometer radius, no serious damage occurred to the container of the No. 1 reactor, as previously feared.

Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency had said earlier that the reactor in the Fukushima No. 1 power station, located about 220 km north of Tokyo, may be starting to melt down after Japan's biggest earthquake on record hit the area Friday.

Recent reports, however, suggest the catastrophe may not be quite as deadly as previously thought.

Eye witnesses accounts and TV footage in Saturday afternoon showed smoke billowing from the site and reported that the reactor building had been destroyed, leading many to believe a partial core meltdown had occurred.

Four people have been injured at the power plant, authorities said, but radiation levels dropped quickly after surging, following the blast according to official accounts.

Prefectural officials in the area announced that the hourly radiation from the troubled plant reached 1,015 micro sievert in the vicinity prior to the explosion and that the radiation approximates an ordinary amount for an adult to be exposed to in one year.

The reports of the explosion followed aftershocks and came amid a mammoth search and rescue mission launched in the northeastern region of Japan involving both Japanese and U.S. military forces.

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency confirmed that measures taken to release the potentially devastating build up of pressure had worked, essentially averting a nuclear meltdown and that radiation amount will pose no imminent health issues for nearby residents.

The agency also said that the wind currently blowing toward the sea rather than inland in the region is a helpful factor.

Government officials said that in the wake of Friday's colossal earthquake and tsunami that struck the northeastern region of Japan, 1,700 people are feared missing or dead.

Editor: Fang Yang


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:16 AM

The rods are indeed capable of melting the metal sheaths around each rod of Uranium becasue of the way it was shut down. Critical mass could only occur when the exposed fuel then melts and compresses on the floor of the reactor.

A scram shutdown with no coolant circulation can contain enough residual heat to damage the "protective blankets" around the Uranium.

WHile you are technically and perfectly correct Jack, the truth is there remains a possibility of melted fuel that could proceed to criticality..

If you want a number I would put it at 10% or less.

A meltdown would still last indefininately. Far longer than a Gulf oil spill.

Neither alternative is anything less than catastrophic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:22 AM

Not good news!

"Japan's government spokesman says the metal container sheltering a nuclear reactor was not affected by an explosion that destroyed the building it's in."

I'm unsure what this statement means beyond an attempt to reassure the public. The fuel rods are within a containment vessel and here in the States our nuclear plants have what's called a containment dome, a final barrier of defense if there were a meltdown (and no one really knows if it would work or not in that event). It's unclear to me if there is a secondary containment dome for this reactor in Japan or whether that was supposed to be the building whose walls have just been blown out.

But in either event no cooling system (pipes, pumps, valves) would have survived that explosion and it's just a matter of hours before there is a complete meltdown.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:31 AM

Spreading fear when you have no facts is NOT a nice thing. What are your sources for all this stuff if I may ask.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:24 AM

999-

Why don't you view the BBC video again yourself and do some research before you accuse others of "spreading fear"? You should be ashamed of yourself. This is a human tragedy which will likely rival the impact of what happened in the Ukraine with the Chernobyl meltdown and explosion.

My own education and experience comes from working as staff for an anti-nuclear power organization in Maine for over ten years, from 1982 to 1992. One learns a lot about the risks involved with generating electricity from "clean" nuclear power from such experience.

I don't think I am exaggerating the dire risks facing the Japanese people at this time. I wish I were.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:30 AM

I am simply asking where the facts are coming from, Charley. I am certainly NOT making light of the situation facing the Japanese people. I am asking where your facts are from. It is YOU who should be ashamed of yourself. You ARE spreading fear--and if rightfully so I will apologize to you. I won`t expect an apology from you if it is otherwise.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:34 AM

Latest reports suggest that, for now at least, a major meltdown looks like being avoided at a nuclear power plant in northeast Japan that was badly damaged by the massive earthquake that struck yesterday afternoon.

Getting clear information on the situation is difficult – one US news station, for example, suggested in one segment there had been about 80 aftershocks since yesterday's main temblor, but in a graphic a couple of minutes later said it was about 180. (The former seems much more likely, although the aftershocks, some of which have topped magnitude 6, have been so regular it's hard to keep track).

According to a Reuters report, radiation is leaking from a plant in Fukushima after a large explosion earlier this afternoon apparently blew off the roof. The evacuation radius was increased from an initial 10 kilometre radius to 20 kilometres, and officials are said to be distributing iodine to locals to help protect them from radiation exposure.

But despite initial speculation among some news stations determined to press analysts and correspondents to discuss 'the worst case scenario,' experts contacted by Reuters said Japan shouldn't see a repeat of the Chernobyl disaster in Russia.

'They said pictures of mist above the plant suggested only small amounts of radiation had been expelled as part of measures to ensure its stability, far from the radioactive clouds Chernobyl spewed out 25 years ago,' Reuters reported. 'Valeriy Hlyhalo, deputy director of the Chernobyl nuclear safety centre, was quoted by Interfax news agency as saying Japanese reactors were better protected than Chernobyl.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:36 AM

Fuel rods at the reactor may be melting after radioactive Cesium material left by atomic fission was detected near the site, Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency spokesman Yuji Kakizaki said by phone earlier today.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-12/explosion-destroys-walls-of-japan-reactor-building-nhk-reports.html

I read a report that said the temp in the control room was 100C but I can't find it now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:44 AM

Note that it is the detection of Cesium that is key.

The fact they are going to try using sea water MAY indicate that the cooling systems MAY be damaged to SOME extent... or NOT. Of course, it's all conjecture.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: number 6
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:45 AM

Basically I don't believe anything (bad or good)that I'm reading .... in time the truth will be known ... all we can do ... at this point in time is hope.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:51 AM

Bruce-

Thanks for the name. No one will be more delighted to offer profuse apologies if I am overstating the case.

Try reviewing this update via Wikipedia. It's the best background info I've been able to find but still very alarming to anyone who has a clue how these plants are supposed to function:
click here for update!

And I should caution that Wikipedia is only as good a "source" as whoever happens to be posting but there is a lot more detail revealed here than from the regular news reports.

The reactor building which was demolished in the explosion does not have a secondary containment system. It is an older "boiling water" reactor designed by General Electric, similar to the Vermont Yankee reactor. It was scheduled to be permanently shut down later this month.

There are six reactors on site at this nuclear plant. Three were shut down before the earthquake for regularly scheduled maintenance and thus were not available to provide back-up power after the tsunami.

The next phase of trying to cool the reactor vessel appears to be pumping sea water in, augmented with boric acid to inhibit further nuclear reaction. This is a desperate measure but is probably the best option left at this point in an attempt to avert a complete meltdown.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:57 AM

As long as large aftershocks continue this situation can't be considered "under control". One aftershock too many and the damage will be the straw that broke...
For now we watch and pray.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: number 6
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:59 AM

exactly Sinsull .... watch, hope and pray for the best.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 12:05 PM

sIx... you can stay at my place if LePreau lights up... I'll put the key under a rock behind the garage before I leave. Of course, it is a CANDU so I don't think there's much chance of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 12:07 PM

////Of the dizens if nuclear plants in Japan, currently the oldest one bulit in 1960 and finished in 1970 is in the most serious condition of being unable to cool the fuel rods which are now venting radiactive steam.////

Maybe plant designs have changed since I worked in them, but I never heard of fuel rods and they can't vent steam. The fuel comes in very thin plates and "very pure water", called a moderator, is pumped around them. The rods are made usually of hafnium and actually absorb neutrons which has the effect of squelching fission reactions. A total insertion of all the rods at once is called a scram and that shuts the reactor down. Now I do know of plants that actually used water in place of the rods and it is possible those might flash to steam but they are not fuel either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 12:14 PM

It is also impossible for a nuke plant to cause a nuclear explosion. They are not set up like a nuclear bomb. An exploding nuke plant would be more like a dirty bomb not an A-bomb. Let's not spread unfounded rumors.

Japan will weather this out as they always do. There will be a massive clean up obviously. This will not be another Chernobyl. Japanese plants are built a tiny bit safer than that. But it is not possible for there to be a "bomb event." Stop causing needless alarm please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Bettynh
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM

Some already need decontamination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 12:37 PM

The above article makes no distinction between radiation and radioactivity--they are NOT the same thing.

Radioactivity is caused by the emission of alpha particles. If you're exposed to radioactivity then you need decon immediately. Radiation is caused by the emission of gamma rays. If you are hit with radiation, decon won't do any good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 01:10 PM

Charley, I want you to know that I agree with you about the possible death toll of a nuclear meltdown, and the severity of that worldwide. I've been with you since about 1965. The issue does get people heated, myself among them. With you, I hope you're wrong. No apology--profuse or otherwise--will be necessary. I was wrong--but let's hope I'm right.

Thank you, Charley.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 01:16 PM

josepp-

As someone who has "worked in" nuclear power plants, you have never heard of "fuel rods"? What was your job there? (sputter, sputter) The nuclear fuel is composed as cylindrical pellets, inserted into nickel alloy fuel rod and then with its brothers and sisters installed within the reactor vessel. The steam would be generated from the coolant heated by the reaction taking place within the fuel rods.

"Stop causing needless alarm"?

You're correct that an atomic explosion as with a bomb would be unlikely at this nuclear reactor. What happened at Chernobyl, however, was bad enough to be "alarmed" at, don't you think? There the nuclear fuel rods melted down, caught fire, and there was a plume of highly radioactive gas which devastated the surrounding downwind area, and dispersed radiation worldwide. You say that is "unlikely to happen" with a 40 year old Japanese nuclear reactor. I don't think anyone should be reassured by your statement. But I could be wrong. I hope so.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 01:30 PM

Bruce-

I'd ordinarily send this via PM but as you're a "guest" that is not an option.

Our disagreement is a minor ripple compared to what folks seem to be facing in and around the Fukushima nuclear plant, not to mention the other nuclear plants in Japan which are also having problems but which we've gotten less info.

My parents raised questions about the siting of the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant prior to its construction beginning in 1968. It was a tough time to raise questions about the safety of nuclear power and they didn't win that battle. I didn't get involved until after Three-Mile Island in 1979. And it wasn't until 1982 that I returned to Maine and began working with the Maine Nuclear Referendum Committee to attempt to shut the plant down. There were actually three statewide shut-down referenda, and they all failed to harvest more than 48% of the vote. The last one took place in 1987 in the wake of the Chernobyl disaster. We raised almost a million dollars and thought we were sure to win this round, but, no, we hardly did any better. Ten years later the owners of Maine Yankee decided to shut it down ten years before its license was to expire because of escalating maintenance problems. But we like to think we helped persuade them to make the right decision. Maybe so. Maybe not.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 01:37 PM

I'll throw out an idea and watch it get shot to hell.

If the venting to reduce the pressure causes a decrease in the level of heavy water which leads to the exposure of some of the rods which in turn causes a temperature rise (and this will accelerate with subsequent temperature rise) thereby allowing the nickel to melt and the ??? (can't recall the name of that stuff) to ignite which in turn ignites the hydrogen separated from the heavy water by the extreme temperatures causing a massive explosion which expels radioactive material into the atmosphere... why not pull the drain plug and remove the explosive fuel from equation? Is it because it's better to expel the radioactive material into the atmosphere than have it melt into the earth?

Start shootin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM

Bravo Charley.

Now, could Canada interest you in a CANDU? >;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 01:53 PM

However, Naoto Sekimura, a professor at Tokyo University, insisted there was little chance that Japan came close to experiencing a Chernobyl-style meltdown. "No Chernobyl is possible at a light water reactor," he said. "Loss of coolant means a temperature rise, but it also will stop the reaction. Even in the worst-case scenario, that would mean some radioactive leakage and equipment damage, but not an explosion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM

Is it because it's better to expel the radioactive material into the atmosphere than have it melt into the earth?

Groundwater. Steam explosion blowing the entire reactor into the sky.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 02:03 PM

////As someone who has "worked in" nuclear power plants, you have never heard of "fuel rods"?////

No. I've heard of fuel plates. These have to arranged in a very specific way inside the reactor. The rods are made of hafnium and when they are inserted, they absorb the neutrons that cause fission thereby squelching the fission process which, it turn, shuts down the reactor if the all the rods are fully inserted simultaneously, i.e. a reactor scram. But even the shutdown has to be carefully monitored for some 30 hours or so due to what is called a build up of "poisons". Now, I haven't worked in a nuclear plant since the 80s and so there might be new designs but I haven't heard of any until now.

////What was your job there?////

I ran the electric plant.

////(sputter, sputter) The nuclear fuel is composed as cylindrical pellets, inserted into nickel alloy fuel rod and then with its brothers and sisters installed within the reactor vessel///

As I said, that may be a new design but every plant I worked in used fuel plates. These plates are very thin. Pellets? You're sure about that? The plates have to be very, very thin. You can't just have a big glob of fission material. And then they're encased in nickel, you say? How does the moderator get to them? What is the moderator?? Maybe they've had some technological breakthroughs since the 80s. First time I've heard of it though.

The rods I know of were hafnium and were necessary to control the rate of fission. I know of one plant that used water instead of rods but I never worked there and am not sure how that worked (I knew several people that did work there).

///The steam would be generated from the coolant heated by the reaction taking place within the fuel rods.///

But how is the reaction taking place, that's what puzzles me. You have to have a moderator and I don't know what that would be in the case of pellets encased in nickel. How are the neutrons getting to the fuel to trigger the fission??? Then the moderator heats up and then is carried along via huge pumps to a set of tubes into what is called a pressurizer which is heated by steam. There is water surrounding the tubes and the heat is transferred to this water of what is called the secondary. This is the water that becomes steam that powers the turbines that turned my generators. That can't let the primary water do that because, obviously, it's been inside the reactor.

////You're correct that an atomic explosion as with a bomb would be unlikely at this nuclear reactor.////

It would be impossible. It would be like two cars colliding into the shape of a huge cannon and balls and the chemicals in the cars' various systems forming a volatile substance that causes the cannon to go off and blow down a building or two. It's literally that remote of a possibility.

///What happened at Chernobyl, however, was bad enough to be "alarmed" at, don't you think?////

Yes, but you're talking about the Russians. Who would you trust to build a better plant? The Russians or the Japanese? I'm not saying this isn't a catastrophe athat can't get worse. An 8.9 earthquake? God knows what is still waiting to happen. But I am saying there won't be any nuclear explosions unless someone sets off a nuclear bomb.

////There the nuclear fuel rods melted down, caught fire, and there was a plume of highly radioactive gas which devastated the surrounding downwind area, and dispersed radiation worldwide.////

How could a cloud of gas disperse radiation? Radioactivty I could see. I mean, I suppose there might be ways but none I know of offhand.

I've never read about what caused the Chernobyl disaster but I would assume if the "fuel rods" melted it would less of a catastrophe than if the hafnium rods melted thereby not allowing the reactor to shutdown so that the fission rate balloons out of control.

///You say that is "unlikely to happen" with a 40 year old Japanese nuclear reactor./////

I'm saying it can't happen. A nuclear plant, no matter how old it is, cannot cause a nuclear explosion because it is not set up like a nuclear bomb. A meltdown is not a nuclear explosion.

////I don't think anyone should be reassured by your statement. But I could be wrong. I hope so.////

You have to be wrong or all my training was bullshit. I'm not saying a meltdown can't happen and wouldn't be catastrophe but I am saying a nuclear explosion simply cannot happen in a nuclear plant unless someone sets off a nuclear bomb inside it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 02:13 PM

Chernobyl was a graphite reactor that stopped radiation like little soldid walls..
3 Mile Island was a water reactor like the ones at Fukashima.
Uranium inside control cylinders of a metal designed to stop most radiation, is cooled by water. Water reactors do not use walls of graphite. Liquid sodium is used instead of water in some reactors but while it is more efficient in and accident if it leakds sodium burns a bit like Magnesium if it gets wet.


Could 3 Mile Island have gone critical and have had a huge explosion?
yes yes and yes.o

Did it?
no

It was amazingly close. It is said to have ben within a few degrees and perhaps only 50 pounds of additional melted uranium to obtain a chain reaction criticality.

One reason it did not blow up was that the specially coated floor of the reactor sloped away with the center poking up like a cone. The melted fuel flowed away from a central catching point and dispersed in a ring rather than a clump. Engineering prevented a full blwon atomic blast.






Yes gnu is right.

Cesium is a sign that some or all of the fuel has melted. How it flows and distributes on the floor is important for the reasons stated above.

Everything I have written here is from memory past and my current source3 is CNN IN - special earthquake tsunami edition.

If no Cesium was reported found in the air I too would have taken hope.

IF the pumps had worked I too would have taken hope.

I will take any valid hope. I welcome it.

Boric acid and seawater is at this moment flowing into one or more reactors. I called this procedure a band aid but ti is more like giving heroin to a terminal patient. It will settle the patient down but is not liekly of offering a cure. from contamination.

It is a last ditch effort to avoid criticality.


Can melted Uranium melt through concrete? r3einforced with rebar?

yes, unfortunetly this is one of those pesky design flaws in nuclear power plants.

Will it certainly melt through concrete?

no.






By the way Saturday Night Live did a sketch on 3 Mile Island.
They gave the job of cleaning up the water and melted fuel to an old black women Garret Morris and Jimmy Carter played by Akroyd was there to determine the cause of the melt down.
Carter discovered it was a Pepsi syndrome of a drink being spilled on the control panel.


At Fukashima once the other reactors were dwon for maintnence and water flooded the back up generators they no loner had a back up for the back up.

Its just one of those things that was sold as being impossible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 02:17 PM

Thanks Jack.

BTW... just thought of sommat that is kinda thread drift. Years ago I was at the nuke near me as an engineering student. The massive concrete containment walls and dome were touted as one of the "extra" safeguards of the CANDU reactor system. I also recall watching a video (hahaha... movie) of concrete burning in a materials course. As a matter of fact, the 6m thick containment walls degraded to a point where they were considered inadequate by initial design standards twenty odd years after construction.

Also, I phoned a radio talk show years ago and had a chat with Dr. Stanton Freidman in which he chastised me about my trepidation regarding the safety of nuke plants. I asked him how The Ocean Ranger (oil rig) sank... a failure of safety systems perhaps? After they went to commercial I was disconnected.

And, no, I have no support for my statements.

In the long run, I still support our nuke until truly, or at least reasonbly clean, energy production is doable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM

josepp... pellets... rods... yup. It's all the rage these days.

And, when you post... "No. I've heard of fuel plates. These have to arranged in a very specific way inside the reactor. The rods are made of hafnium and when they are inserted,..." sommat just don't add up???


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM

Gnu points to a problem that has faced us for over 50 years. Why would vested interests in nuclear power worry about other ways to generate electricity when the have the solution wired--as far as the vested interests are concerned.

1) Some things seem clear. If I discovered a cure for cancer, it would put millions out of work.

2) If I discovered a cheap source to use instead of gas, it would put millions out of work.

Etc.

Our paradigm is all wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 02:26 PM

I do not know if this plant has a sloping zircon shield.

IF we found the Fukashima plant designs we would among oursleves know more than what CNN is telling us.

We would know more about the fuel pellets, shielding etc.



joeseph, How is fission being allowed to occur...?

We may not know exactly however if the fuel did not have time to get covered since the earthquake and the tsunami were only about 5 minutes apart, then it is clearly possible that a hot reactor left in such an in between state would suffer runaway heat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM

Question... why can't they pull the rods?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM

I'm asking if pellets of Uranium are encased in nickel rods how do neutrons from the moderator reach them since the moderator is making no contact with the fuel? And how is the process of fission controlled in such a system?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 03:54 PM

josepp-

"I'm asking if pellets of Uranium are encased in nickel rods how do neutrons from the moderator reach them since the moderator is making no contact with the fuel? And how is the process of fission controlled in such a system?"

I don't know the answer to that for sure without refreshing my aging tiny brain with research. My understanding is that the fuel rod casings are not impermeable to whatever (gamma rays and alpha and beta particles) are being emitted by the breakdown of the uranium pellets. The boric acid has the capacity to absorb some of these emissions which helps moderate the rise in temperature.

It's also my understanding that the Japanese reactor is a light water reactor rather than a heavy water reactor such as we have festering in New Brunswick, Canada. The fact that it is also a boiling water reactor rather than a pressurized water reactor like most of the reactors in the States is another factor to consider. I'm not sure if it makes the reactor more safe or less safe. Well, any idiot realizes now that the Fukushira reactor is not safe now.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 04:35 PM

Here's another good resource for updates, Nuclear Information and Resource Service (NIRS), a nuclear power watchdog group headquartered in Washington, DC: click here for update!

Their full-time staff has the training and experience to frankly comment on such events.

I'm disturbed to learn there is also a "spent-fuel pool" in the basement of the destroyed reactor building; "spent-fuel" is actually high-level nuclear waste, old fuel rods, that remain deadly for thousands and thousands of years.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM

Charley... "...such as we have festering in New Brunswick, Canada."

???


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 04:49 PM

///I don't know the answer to that for sure without refreshing my aging tiny brain with research. My understanding is that the fuel rod casings are not impermeable to whatever (gamma rays and alpha and beta particles) are being emitted by the breakdown of the uranium pellets. The boric acid has the capacity to absorb some of these emissions which helps moderate the rise in temperature.////

I just looked up the CANDU system. Totally unlike anything I worked on which were Westinghouse and General Electric plants. But, as I said, I stopped working in nuclear plants in the 80s and i don't know what systems other manufacturers were using.   

////It's also my understanding that the Japanese reactor is a light water reactor rather than a heavy water reactor such as we have festering in New Brunswick, Canada.////

I know light requires enriched uranium but since I never worked at a lightwater facility, I don't know which is better. Heavy is cheaper, I know that.

///The fact that it is also a boiling water reactor rather than a pressurized water reactor like most of the reactors in the States is another factor to consider. I'm not sure if it makes the reactor more safe or less safe. Well, any idiot realizes now that the Fukushira reactor is not safe now.////

I never worked with boiling water reactors. Never heard of it. Every plant I worked at was always pressurized. In fact, I can't see how that could possibly work. Letting the water boil in the plants I worked at would be EXTREMELY dangerous. It wouldn't be allowed. We couldn't even let the water transfer heat through nucleate boiling which is extremely efficient because it was too close to boiling at that point and so was too dangerous to allow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:18 PM

Hmmmm..maybe we could stop the meltdown by pouring all the Bankers and the Bastards down the chimneys, kind of block it all with shit.

Failing that, we could perhaps use all the billions of billions of billions that they've stolen from the world in general and see if that would smother the life out of things...


Failing *that*, we could all go shopping till we're quite literally dropping, with our credit cards (hey we may never have to pay a penny back!) buy 'Hello' magazine and a **very** large latte, then sit down, relax and look forward to the HUGE financial savings that will probably be big enough to wipe out all National Debts around the world, when we finally get to turn off ALL street lights forever, because we've just turned ourselves into a species that Glows in the Dark....

Maybe this is what happened to Glo-Worms...but on a much smaller scale?

It could also be the end of the IMF.....Gee, every cloud has a silver lining then..even the nuclear ones...



Excellent post, Bruce..


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM

Good work Charlie!

the info from that site has some amazing revelations regarding Fukashima.

Spent fuel rods are in the basement of the crippled reactor
Also they seem to be using a mix of unranium and plutonium for fuel.
For lower cost reasons they opted to repair cracks in the containment vessel with patchwork welded plates instead of replacing the whole thing.

I have't found what kind of floor shield is used yet but I will continue to look at the designs.

After reading the lastest bulletines I found that except for the above three findings, everything is on par what with what I have written and suspected so far.












The question that will not be answered in media soundbites is "what is the big deal if meltdowns occur"?.


hold on to your sphincter...


To my knowledge the largest hydrogen bombs probably contain less than a ton of nuclear material. They probably have less than half a ton.

During the decades in which atmospheric, space and underwater detonations of nuclear weapons were "tested", there were various health problems than ensued: childhood leukemmia rose 1000%, cancers of many unusual types rose dramaticly, lung and brain cancers more than doubled...

If each plant in trouble in Japan has between 20 tons of an enriched Uranium Plutonium mix fuel, along with an unknown quantity of old spent fuel stored in the basement and you multiply that by as much as 5 plants there are well more than 200 tons of highly radioactive fissile material, or nearly a quarter million pounds of Uranium with a small amount of plutonium and large amount of spent fuel.

When I ask myself about the amount of all the nukes all nations exploded numbering over 302, is the amount of nuclear fuel at those Japanese plants greater or less than the nukes we already exploded in our atmosphere??

I am guessing the Japanese Nuke plants have more. Way more.



If this is too troubling a question to consider, relax and please refer to FOX NEws who will assure you that radiation levels have gone down at Fukashima.



Charley's Nuke info site stated that the on site radiation monitors are off line as well as not being available for public information release.




_______________________________

What to expect from popular media if the plants melt down catastrophicly:
There will be many reassuring atatements that some radiation will be realsed but that there is no danger from this in the United STates.

We have the situation under control as we "Entomb the shut down reactors in a mountain of concrete.

There is nothing to worry about.

Move alon there is nothing to see here.

Left wing loons are blowing the incident and their self importence out of proportion.

The danger has passed but we should remain vigilant.

We dodged the big one.

We can all take a big sigh of relief.

Thanks to all the heros who battled the nuclear incident....    (this one I happen to agree with)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:56 PM

While sphincter factors are incredibly tight
It really is clear were not here to fight.
This really is as scary as hell
but hope still rings as clear as a bell


Reeling reactors and swirling disasters
are reaching a critical threshold.
How hot it can grow nobody knows
but one day we'll all know what death holds.

Nuclear power is the news of the hour
and Plutonium makes people turn sour
The Fukashima disaster's like WW2
in that few of us know what to do

Like George Carlin said off the top of his head
"I can watch earthquakes destroy the earth safe and snuggled in bed
It seems he was right, but more so.
My ass has just swallowed my torso


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 05:58 PM

ANNOUNCED JUST MOMMENTS AGO


THE FUKASHIMA MELTDOWN IS NOW UNDERWAY.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 06:08 PM

In Japan plant, frantic efforts to avoid meltdown
(AP) – 18 minutes ago
TOKYO (AP) — Inside the troubled nuclear power plant, officials knew the risks were high when they decided to vent radioactive steam from a severely overheated reactor vessel. They knew a hydrogen explosion could occur, and it did. The decision still trumped the worst-case alternative — total nuclear meltdown.
At least for the time being.
The chain of events started Friday when a magnitude-8.9 earthquake and tsunami severed electricity to the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear complex 170 miles (270 kilometers) northeast of here, crippling its cooling system. Then, backup power did not kick in properly at one of its units.
From there, conditions steadily worsened, although government and nuclear officials initially said things were improving. Hours after the explosion, they contended that radiation leaks were reduced and that circumstances had gotten better at the 460-megawatt Unit 1. But crisis after crisis continued to develop or be revealed.
Without power, and without plant pipes and pumps that were destroyed in the explosion of the most-troubled reactor's containment building, authorities resorted to drawing seawater in an attempt to cool off the overheated uranium fuel rods.
Robert Alvarez, senior scholar at the Institute for Policy Studies and former senior policy adviser to the U.S. secretary of energy, said in a briefing for reporters that the seawater was a desperate measure.
"It's a Hail Mary pass," he said.
He said that the success of using seawater and boron to cool the reactor will depend on the volume and rate of their distribution. He said the dousing would need to continue nonstop for days.
Another key, he said, was the restoration of electrical power, so that normal cooling systems can be restored.
Officials placed Dai-ichi Unit 1, and four other reactors, under states of emergency Friday because operators had lost the ability to cool the reactors using usual procedures. Local evacuations were ordered.
Officials began venting radioactive steam at Unit 1 to relieve pressure inside the reactor vessel, which houses the overheated uranium fuel.
Concerns escalated dramatically Saturday when that unit's containment building exploded.
It turned out that officials were aware that the steam contained hydrogen, acknowledged Shinji Kinjo, spokesman for the government Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency. More importantly, they also were aware they were risking an explosion by deciding to vent the steam.
The significance of the hydrogen began to come clear late Saturday:
—Officials decided to reduce rising pressure inside the reactor vessel, so they vented some of the steam buildup. They needed to do that to prevent the entire structure from exploding, and thus starting down the road to a meltdown.
—At the same time, in order to keep the reactor fuel cool, and also prevent a meltdown, operators needed to keep circulating more and more cool water on the fuel rods.
—Temperature in the reactor vessel apparently kept rising, heating the zirconium cladding that makes up the fuel rod casings. Once the zirconium reached 2,200 degrees Fahrenheit (1,200 Celsius), it reacted with the water, becoming zirconium oxide and hydrogen.
—When the hydrogen-filled steam was vented from the reactor vessel, the hydrogen reacted with oxygen, either in the air or water outside the vessel, and exploded.
A similar "hydrogen bubble" had concerned officials at the 1979 Three Mile Island nuclear disaster in Pennsylvania until it dissipated.
If the temperature inside the Fukushima reactor vessel continued to rise even more — to roughly 4,000 degrees Fahrenheit (2,200 Celsius) — then the uranium fuel pellets would start to melt.
According to experts interviewed by The Associated Press, any melted fuel would eat through the bottom of the reactor vessel. Next, it would eat through the floor of the already-damaged containment building. At that point, the uranium and dangerous byproducts would start escaping into the environment.
At some point in the process, the walls of the reactor vessel — 6 inches (15 centimeters) of stainless steel — would melt into a lava-like pile, slump into any remaining water on the floor, and potentially cause an explosion much bigger than the one caused by the hydrogen. Such an explosion would enhance the spread of radioactive contaminants.
If the reactor core became exposed to the external environment, officials would likely began pouring cement and sand over the entire facility, as was done at the 1986 Chernobyl nuclear accident in the Ukraine, Peter Bradford, a former commissioner of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, said in a briefing for reporters.
At that point, Bradford added, "many first responders would die."

AP National Writer Jeff Donn reported from Boston.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 06:24 PM

999-

And that's the good news, but thanks for the update.

Peter Bradford was chair of our Public Utilities Commission here in Maine after he left the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. We respected his knowledge and experience, although we certainly debated him rigorously on a wide range of nuclear related issues. But he's no fool.

I haven't much to add at this point.

I could score some points with josepp above on "boiling water reactors." But I won't except to repeat that Vermont Yankee is the only operating boiling water reactor in the States, over 40 years old, and quite similar to the old reactor at Fukushima which evidently is experiencing meltdown. In fact, according to Wkipedia, all the reactors at Fukushima are "boiling water" reactors. Please check it out if you're unfamiliar with this type and are interesting in the question.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 06:29 PM

Well that sucks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 06:31 PM

This looks like a reliable source:

http://uvdiv.blogspot.com/2011/03/some-links-on-fukushima-daiichi-1.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: bobad
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 06:44 PM

As of 6:26 EST

"Tokyo (CNN) -- A meltdown may be under way at one of Fukushima Daiichi's nuclear power reactors in northern Japan, an official with Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency told CNN Sunday.

"There is a possibility, we see the possibility of a meltdown," said Toshihiro Bannai, director of the agency's international affairs office, in a telephone interview from the agency's headquarters in Tokyo. "At this point, we have still not confirmed that there is an actual meltdown, but there is a possibility."

Though he said engineers have been unable to get close enough to the core to know what's going on, he based his conclusion on the fact that they measured radioactive cesium and radioactive iodine in the air Saturday night.

"What we have seen is only the slight indication from a monitoring post of cesium and iodine," he said. Since then, he said, plant officials have injected sea water and boron into the plant in an effort to cool its nuclear fuel.

We have some confidence, to some extent, to make the situation to be stable status," he said. "We actually have very good confidence that we will resolve this."

A state of emergency has been declared for it and two of the other five reactors at the same complex, he said. Three are in a safe, shut-down state, he said. "The other two still have some cooling systems, but not enough capacity."

From CNN's Tom Watkins


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 06:46 PM

Okay... yet another perhaps stunned question... if a nuke power plant does not "boil water", how does it create enough kinetic energy to move a turbine to create electricity?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 06:59 PM

There are two distinctly diffrent news announcments regarding Fukashima. The Ambassador from Japan is repeating in even tones that he has no evidence of a meltdown and that all relief efforts are beng carried out on schedule. His language is cloaked in terms that he may not be accused of lieing. "I have not seen///" "I have not been given reason to believe..."

The announcment in Japan from nuclear plant officials that a meltdown is underway is a courageous and honest approach that honors any volunteers who march into the jaws of hellish death to do what they can to save the other reactors.

Honesty is always the best policy except for individuals who would collapse under its weight.


The two tiered media announcments of this nuclear disaster is wise in that it allows people who would fall apart to have something to cling to while smart people still get the information they need.

At minimum people who did not evacuate yet will be motivated to move now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:03 PM

That is al a fancy nuke plant is gnu, a big kettle to make steam to run a turbine surrounded by magnets to create electicity.

These bad reactors are whistling steam like crazy until someone takes it off the stove.

Cup o tea dearie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:14 PM

Perhaps I asked too soon... "a pressurized water reactor like most of the reactors in the States is another factor to consider" from josepp's post.

I can see (kinda) that if the heavy water was heated to super and funnelled properly it could spin a turbine without gas formation. Seems odd at first thought, to me. Just never thought of it that way... am a silly engineer by trade, not a make-a-nickel engineer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:16 PM

A pressurized water reactor uses a heat exchanger to boil the water.

http://www.nucleartourist.com/type/pwr.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:19 PM

The pictures of terrified toddlers being scanned for radiation are heartbreaking. They are completely traumatized by the earthquake and aftershocks. Now men in odd suits (carefully protecting themselves) are seeing if they are "hot".
Meantime, a coastal town in another part of japan is "missing" about half of its population - 9500 people can't be accounted for.

Ironic isn't it? 50+ years ago we, the United States, reigned nuclear horrors down on these same people. Now we are scrambling to protect them from the same horror.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:19 PM

Another irony? Rained not reigned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:20 PM

Once again, thanks Jack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:48 PM

Now we are scrambling to protect them from the same horror.

...from an American nuclear reactor.

In the late 1950s when the decision to build it was made, Japan would have no choice in taking General Electric's product. The point of the transaction was to boost GE's profits. The fact that the reactor was nowhere near safe enough for Japanese conditions wouldn't have been considered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 08:15 PM

speaking of irony...satire alert;


Whew, The Ambassador from Japan says everything is fine. Thank goodness we can all breath a big sigh of relief now. Thank God
we have no reason to distrust Japanese Ambassadors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 08:34 PM

Come now, Donuel. ;-) That's being a bit nasty. The Japanese ambassador in December '41 had been sent a text (in code) specifically worded as an official declaration of war from Japan on the USA. He was instructed to give it to Cordell Hull at a specific time (shortly prior to the attack going in at Pearl Harbour) so that the state of war would officially exist prior to that hostile act. He failed to do so on time, because his incompetent office staff had so much trouble decoding the message and laboriously typing it out a letter at a time that they didn't have it translated in time for him to deliver it on schedule.

This utterly humiliated the Japanese ambassador, and it horrified Admiral Yamamoto when he found out about it, because he knew the American nation would never forgive a "sneak attack" launched prior to the declaration of war. (In fact, they'd never have forgiven any kind of major attack like that, but Yamamoto, like all Japanese, had a rather medieval concept of honor, so it was a major concern to him at least.)

I don't see how any of the above translates to the Japanese ambassador being untrustworthy. He did what his job required, and it was not his intention to deceive the USA regarding Japanese intentions, but to deliver that message as ordered to...and on time.

The attack was scheduled to occur about half an hour after delivery of the message, but the message didn't get translated on time.

The Japanese ambassador was a man put in an impossible position by his own government and his poorly trained office staff, and he should not be blamed for what happened. (In any case, both the American and Japanese governments knew darned well that war was coming between them...and very soon. And the military on both sides knew it too. There was really no doubt of it. The only question was, on which day would it happen? Only....the general public in both countries was not informed about that.)

You could say that the people who were tricked were the ordinary citizenry.   In both countries. They (and the ordinary servicemen on the Allied side) were the ones who got blindsided.

None of that was the Japanese ambassador's fault.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 08:50 PM

///Okay... yet another perhaps stunned question... if a nuke power plant does not "boil water", how does it create enough kinetic energy to move a turbine to create electricity?///

In the types of plants I worked in, the water in the reactor that heats up and is moved by pumps through a pressurizer and steam generator was never allowed to boil. The pressuirzer prevented that. The water then passes through heat exchange tubes in the steam generator and back to the reactor. This system is called the primary.

On the other side of the tubes is a different, unconnected system of water that received the heat energy from the primary. It is called the secondary. It DOES allow the water to boil inside the steam generator (which is basically a boiler) and that steam is superheated and moving through pipes at a high rate of speed. It must be very dry when it enters the turbine. Very small droplets in the steam will tear up the turbine blades so there must not be any droplets. The spinning turbine then turns the generators to generate power which goes to a power distribution switchboard which is what I operated and oversaw for a number of years.

I take it that in a boiling reactor, there is no secondary system. The water must leave the reactor as steam and go directly to the turbines. That sounds dangerous as hell to me but it is what it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 08:59 PM

Thank you again josepp. Pressure does supress boiling. In space you can boil water at 100 below zero.

Also a heat exchanger does seem to be an inefficient link in the chain don't you think? Do they use that for safety reasons or protect the pipes from extremely high pressures that steam produces?


The floor of this reactor does not seem to be as advanced as 3 Mile Island. So far it looks like it is just concrete with two big valves at the bottom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 09:06 PM

jeez I even gave you a satire alert.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 09:07 PM

////None of that was the Japanese ambassador's fault.////

While I pity the sailors killed at Pearl Harbor because of the incompetence of their superiors, I have no overall sympathy for the US. The planes were spotted a number of times and reported and nobody did anything. That is unforgiveable. I am a 6-year veteran of the United States Navy and I was trained that first you get feedback and make observations before assuming the watch--a pre-watch tour, it's called. Then you get a turnover from the watch you are relieving. it is your responsibility to make sure what he tells you gibes with the info you gathered on your pre-watch tour. If it does not, you refuse to take that watch until he gives your a correct turnover.

Then anything that appears out of the ordinary on your watch you must investigate, report and monitor. If anything bad happens on your watch--YOU are responsible--YOU ARE. I remember a guy went to mast because a steam pipe ruptured on his watch. A valve was closed that had no business being closed. Turns out the previous watch closed for a reason no one knows. The other guy came down and took over the watch and the pipe burst on his watch. He insisted it wasn't his fault. "Did you take a pre-watch tour and make sure all the right vales were opened and closed?" he was asked. "No." "Then you're responsible for what happened because you were on watch." He was reduced a step in rank. The Navy was very pissed at him. What happened to the other guy? Nothing.

So with Pearl Harbor, someone who had the duty that morning dismissed reports of unidentified planes and so he is responsible for the attack on Pearl Harbor by military standards. That's way military responsbility was exercised on me and my fellow sailors and that's the way I, in turn, exercise it on every other person in the military. A report was made to you on our watch, you failed to investigate it, an attack occurred as a direct result, therefore you are responsible for it happening and should be punished accordingly.

It was his job to watch for invaders, he didn't do his job. If that is how a nation trains its soldiers then tough shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 09:27 PM

Yes, Donuel, I know...but I just can't avoid talking about history. I love it. ;-)

josepp - You are correct that one man failed to pass along a message from the radar station about a large incoming group of unidentified aircraft. That was because he assumed that they were a group of (unarmed) American B-17s coming in from California. On the one hand, it was not too surprising an error...on the other hand, he should have checked into it more carefully before making a snap judgement!!!

A Japanese midget sub was spotted in restricted waters very near the harbour awhile before the attack too, and it was sunk by an American picket destroyer! Yet no one followed that up by issuing a general alert.

These were cases of considerable carelessness.

I have plenty of sympathy for all the people who died (or were injured) on both sides at Pearl Harbour and after Pearl Harbour. They were all doing the job they'd been trained to do and doing the very best they could, but they were among the millions of victims of power politics who have fallen in war. They just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Sort of like the Japanese at this moment, after the earthquake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 09:30 PM

NHK bulletin

The Nuclear energy official said they are pumping sea water on both #1 reactor and #3 reactor. I hope they have Doug Flutie spraying the sea water.


When the spokesman for the N plants said there was no radiation high enough to be immediately harmful to human health, I saw him lick his lips and take a deep breath at the end of that sentence.
He also explained that wind direction may be the cause for such a wide varience in observed radiation levels.


Clearly this is a job for McGruber.
Actually it almost sounds as though he is in charge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 09:32 PM

OK you soldiers, stop it.

No one here is going to refight WW 2,
We have a meltdown to fight.

Do I have any volunteers?

















Anyone,

?anyone at all?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 09:41 PM

You Soldier, yes you. Whats your name?

Private Jose Immenez

Very well Private Immenez, get in there and clean up that reactor.

Sir? How do I do that sir?

Just get a mop and bucket and get to it.

Yes sir, where do I empty the water sir?

In the sea soldier

Sir where sir?

the sea

Si?

Yes

Yes sir?







I'll get me hat


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 09:45 PM

It's time to hunker down in the basement if you haven't already evacuated.

There is a theory that suggests that "boiling water" reactors such as Vermont Yankee and the Fukushima (I won't disclose why I am able to spell this word correctly on a public forum) are actually safer than pressured light water reactors. But it never made sense to me. I liked the concept of a totally secondary systems of pipes coming in to collect heat, exit, and then boil steam to run the turbines. Of course the secondary steam tubes tended to clog up after a while...

This is so much like some terrible flashback to Three Mile Island and Chernobyl.

I'm not sure I'll dare to watch the news tomorrow.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: number 6
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:49 PM

doesn't look good ..

"We are assuming that a meltdown has occurred" at a quake-damaged nuclear reactor, Japan's chief Cabinet secretary says. "


biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:50 PM

Yes sir, Donuel, sir! Copy that.

I am well stocked up on iodine. You never know when it might come in handy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: J-boy
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:09 PM

There's no sense in getting all worked up about something we have no control over. The world will still be here tomorrow. If it's not we won't know about it anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:11 PM

Japanese society is special in the sense of their extreme politeness embedded in the language. They have a deeply ingrained self determinism. I understand why the Japanese government is talking out of both sides of their face, their public officials do not want to have turmoil and attacks against contaminated victims who are fleeing to other areas but they do want some knowledge of the actual dangers of a nuclear disaster.

Since Hiroshima the folklore of radiation and monsters is near the heart of their psyche. Godzilla, there I said it. They are facing their worst monster movie scenario. Godzilla vs Mothra and Fukashima. Speaking of monsters I wonder what the Yakuza is up to.

Japan is nearing the 20th year of thier recession and absurd housing costs. The malaise of young Japanese society is profound. They have a very high suicide rate compared to the USA. Dealing with very real challenges will be shocking for japan's youth.


Regarding the status of what seems to be a limited version of meltdowns in reactor 1 and 3, the fate of Japan and global pollution is literally determined by the way the cookie crumbles.

I hope the fuel crumbles in a dispersed fashion and does not decide to go critical, even in one little tiny spot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: number 6
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:20 PM

Well said Donuel.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:21 PM

Regular ol reddish Iodine can kill you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Potassium Iodide is the stuff that can be consumed by pill or by eye dropper.

jeez, where is John from Kansas ? He would have remembered that crucial fact. There is also a prescription Iodine mouth wash for oral surgury patients.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: J-boy
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:31 PM

The sky isn't falling. But if it makes you feel more alive then by all means have at it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:36 PM

Yes, I know the difference, Donuel. There's the iodine you put on a cut to disinfect it...very poisonous if taken orally. Then there's the oral type that is taken with an eyedropper. I've been taking the latter daily for about a year now anyway, on the advice of my doctor, to help regulate the thyroid. It tastes good and has no harmful effects. It says right on the bottle: "Take 10 drops in water or juice once daily."

It's called "Iodine Drops" on the label, but it is Potassium Iodide, as shown in the Ingredients section.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:36 PM

Tune in to CNN tommorow when we all hope to see Anderson Cooper lowered by helicopter into Reactor #1 like a tea bag, right through its non existent roof and then broadcast right beside the containment vessel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 11:45 PM

Yeah, right... ;-) Where's Geraldo Rivera when we need him?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 03:35 AM

Ring of Fire
10% of the World's Volcanoes
Japan

Nuclear Power Plants



Do any of these first three make the fourth a good idea, or am I missing the blindingly obvious?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 09:19 AM

Sorry, have got neither the time nor patience to go through all the postings to see if this has already been raised - my understanding of the problem seems to be that they need to urgently get in coolant to the reactors but probably need a power system to do it. The stand-by systems (generator then batteries)which should have kicked in failed because of the extreme circumstances (flooding).


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 09:31 AM

Yes that has already been covered, several times.

What's so great about your opinion that you need to express it without making any effort to read what other people have said?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 10:39 AM

Been mulling this over for much of the night. This morning there doesn't seem to be much more factual info to factor in. The newspapers are full of inept attempts by reporters to correlate info that they're not familiar with (not surprising) and if the situation wasn't so potentially tragic it would be very amusing.

Some have already pointed out above that this "accident in process" cannot repeat what happened to the Chernobyl reactor in 1986 and they are correct. The key differences include at Chernobyl the use of charcoal bricks to moderate the fission process and the lack of a containment vessel. When Chernobyl experienced meltdown and there was a hydrogen explosion the charcoal caught fire and its smoke was the source of a highly radioactive plume that spread worldwide for days. If there had been a containment vessel and a containment dome such as we have in nuclear plants in the States it's possible that a whole lot less radiation would have escaped into the environment; some would still have had to be released as pressure built up in the dome, as was done at Three Mile Island after its partial meltdown in 1979.

By the way one CNN "expert" last evening claimed that the malfunctioning Three Mile Island reactor was repaired and brought back on line. No, that never happened. Unit 2 was too badly damaged and contaminated to resume operations. It's sister Unit 1 however continued to operate.

Evidently the reactor containment vessel is still intact at Fukushima, despite the destruction of the building surrounding it during the spectacular hydrogen explosion yesterday morning, or so it's claimed by the nuclear industry spokesmen in Japan.

I'll be very surprised if there is not a second hydrogen explosion soon at one of the two other reactors in the Fukushima complex that were experiencing the same kind of cooling pump failure as the unit whose building exploded, unless the Japanese are more successful with auxiliary generators on-site to reactivate the cooling pumps.

No one knows how successful pumping saltwater in and around the reactor containment vessel will be, which is supposed to be happening now at Unit 1. That's never been tried before. One wonders what they plan to do with the huge volume of radioactive waste water created, other than pour it back into the sea...not to mention the clouds of radioactive steam created...

No one really knows what will happen if the fuel rods at Unit 1 do completely melt down. In the partial meltdown at Three Mile Island, the melt ate its way through the reactor containment vessel, swirled around the floor, and then ate its way back in! Not many people ever read the follow-up report that was published a year later. It seems unlikely that the melt would behave like a critical mass highly compressed in a bomb's containment, which also needs to be triggered by an explosion to achieve its classic nuclear explosion. That's the good news in what will be a very troubling 24 hours.

Oh, and there is the other nearby Fukushima complex where some of the reactors are also experiencing similar loss of coolant problems. Again, too much to focus on. I need more coffee.

Oh, and with regard to iodide tablets. The time to take them to protect your thyroid is before you are exposed to radioactive iodide, not after. That way the thyroid will no longer have the capacity to absorb the radioactive iodide. It's also true that too much non-radioactive iodide can make you very ill. Check on-line for the proper dosage.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 11:10 AM

It's a goat f**k out of control.

thanks for the advice concerning iodide tablets Charley.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 12:10 PM

Here's some more things to ponder:

Japan's chief cabinet secretary Yukio Edano told reporters earlier on Sunday that a partial meltdown in Unit 3 at the Fukushima facility was "highly possible".
"At the risk of raising further public concern, we cannot rule out the possibility of an explosion (another hydrogen explosion?)," Edano said. "If there is an explosion, however, there would be no significant impact on human health.


I wouldn't feel reassured by the above statement, especially combined with the new statement from NIRS:

Update from Nuclear Information Resources Service (NIRS):

UPDATE, 5:30 pm, Saturday, March 12, 2011. Reuters is reporting that Fukushima Daiichi Unit 3 has lost cooling capability: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/12/us-japan-quake-nuclear-cooling-idUSTRE72B3GI20110312

This is of particular concern since, unlike all of the other reactors in trouble, Unit 3 has been using plutonium-based MOX (mixed oxide) fuel since September 10, 2010. Consequences of an accident at a MOX-powered reactor would be even more severe than at a more typical uranium-powered reactor...

Ugh!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 12:19 PM

Charley, why is the news so damned quiet about all this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 12:37 PM

BBC News

With the loss of power at reactor 3, and with its valves and pumps damaged by the tsunami, emergency workers were pumping in seawater mixed with boron - which disrupts nuclear chain reactions - to cool the rods.

But one report suggested the tops of the rods had briefly been exposed.

Technicians opened valves, allowing small amounts of radioactive vapour to escape in a bid to reduce the pressure in the unit.

They performed a similar operation on the first reactor, hours before the explosion that wrecked the building it was housed in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 01:28 PM

One BBC story claimed that the people of Japan have developed a sort of folklore about the effects of radiation. They believe in monster babies and the like. There is a genuine concern that people evacuating from the area of the nuclear plants will be attacked.
More good news.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 01:35 PM

Potassium Iodide

Cesium mimics Potassium in the human body. If your body needs Potassium it will grab Cesium and put it right where Potassium would go.

Potassium Iodide liquid drops promotes uptake of the real elements and will take less of the radioactive mimics.

I wrote about these drops early in the thread because my sister died from radioactive Iodine about 10 years ago. The process is too dreadful to describe but suffice it to say that at her death she had had her stomach, thyroid, intestines , spllen and pancrous removed.
She survived on IV ATP for over a year.




The fuel at Fukashima is a Uranium Plutonium mixture.


HOW MANY PLUTONIUM ATOMS CAN YOU BREATH SAFELY.

As long as not even one atom remains lodged in your lung or passageway you can breathe as much as you want for a few seconds.

Even one atom    of PU lodged in your lung will kill tissue and then promote cancerous growth.

The Rocky Flats Plutonium plant in Colorado has released dozens of lbs of PU through fire and spill. So we are exposed to PU concievably very often and we still have a viable albeit cancer striken society.


Another report of yet a third reactor (not one of the Fukashima reactors) is reported to have lost all cooling to the core. Since this reactor is even closer to Tokyo the reporting strikes me as being realtively hush hush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 01:39 PM

"...why is the news so damned quiet about all this?"

The 'news'...meaning mainstream media... is seeing what we see- many conflicting reports and opinions about what actually IS happening, as well as the significance and likely outcomes.
They have been roundly criticized in the past for jumping on ONE opinion and getting it wrong. Plus, so many people rely only on CNN or BBC or Fox...etc, that they could cause widespread confusion & panic if they say too much.
   I am seeing 'almost' all the guesses and possibilities at least mentioned on the news.
One of the most seemingly credible persons... a nuclear engineer... said that, in his opinion, even a 'meltdown' in THIS plant, given the conditions, while serious, would NOT breach the containment vessel and would not create a widespread radiation hazard.

So... I tune in every now & then to see if that has changed. So far, it hasn't. I simply cannot take constant dwelling on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Bettynh
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM

Well, I can't find it again, but I did see that one worker from the power plants has died of radiation poisoning. They're testing evacuees for radiation now. They've admitted that they found a few. Apparently, the population around the nuclear plants wasn't given iodine to keep on hand for this situation (I know coastal NH residents all have been issued a supply, to be taken only if danger threatens).

Soo... we're sending trauma doctors to an area well served by modern hospitals (remember the trauma stations set up in NY on 9/11 that had no business?). It will be a test to see if any emergency system is nimble enough to start sending oncologists and radiologists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 02:06 PM

Here's what NIRS said about how the nuclear plant worker died:


UPDATE, 1 pm, Saturday, March 12, 2011. World Nuclear News is reporting that a worker who
was apparently trapped in the exhaust stack of Unit 1 at Fukushima Daiichi has died.

It's unclear whether he died from radiation poisoning, but he's certainly a victim of this unfolding disaster.

"...why is the news so damned quiet about all this?"

I agree with Bill on this one. Even the "experts are all thumbs when the meltdown comes" as we used to sing in the halcyon days of my youth.

Consult NIRS or Wikipedia for more accurate info. The media is good for general updates on what has happened, not why it happened or what might happen next.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 02:10 PM

Oh, and now the weather pattern has taken a bad turn for Japan. The winds for the last few days have been blowing out to sea. Starting tomorrow the winds will be blowing in from the sea, counterclockwise as a low passes off-shore.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 02:27 PM

Not to worry, Charlie. You will get to breathe the radioactive particles. Eventually the winds will change and carry radiation across the north Pacific, through Alaska and Canada, and eventually reach you in New England. Slow, but inevitable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 02:32 PM

Donuel... "Even one atom    of PU lodged in your lung will kill tissue and then promote cancerous growth."

My old man (RCAF, Ground Nuclear Defense) told me a long time ago that tobacco causes emphysema and other nasties but it does not cause cancer directly. Rather, it allows cancer to be caused by sunstances which become lodged in the lung and are either radioactive themselves or are metals which can be affected by magnetic fields induced by close proximity to electric current.

And, no, I don't care to discuss it any further with anyone for any reason whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM

15 patients at a hospital six miles from the reactor have been diagnosed with radiation poisoning. One ambulance is "contaminated". Not sure what that means.

Meantime a volcano in southern Japan has erupted breaking windows and spewing debris. Those poor people, Enough is enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 04:02 PM

Tepco Press release regarding the state of Fukushima reactor complex


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 04:15 PM

Peter-

Thanks for posting the link to the company press release.

One detail is particularly disquieting to me:

"We are currently coordinating with the relevant authorities and
departments as to how to secure the cooling water to cool down
the water in the spent nuclear fuel pool."

The "spent fuel pool" is as I've mentioned above where they keep the highly radioactive "spent" fuel rods in storage after they are no longer useful as fuel for the reactor. They still need to be kept cool which is why they are submerged in the pool. If there is a loss of coolant supply to the pool, there is a risk of a catastrophic release of radiative isotopes from there. There is typically no containment provided or required for a spent fuel pool. There was once an incident in the States where the level of water in the spent fuel pool dropped nine feet before someone noticed what was happening; the problem was then corrected but everyone had a good scare.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 06:10 PM

Tepco releases not available at the moment, a new one probably being prepared. Importantly, the last one said water levels restored.
----------------------------

Looking at Hawai'i, the state seems not to have sustained any severe damage. Several homes near beach level lost, and some condo/rental units severely damaged. Seven homes lost on Kealakekua Bay. Current State estimates are several million dollars damage to beach installations, piers, etc. Perhaps $1 million damage at Kailua-Kona Pier. Big Island authorities breathed a sigh of relief that there was not more damage.
No lives lost, but a few minor injuries.
(Above gleaned from Honolulu Staradvertiser.com and Hawai'i Tribune-Herald (Hilo)).


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 06:26 PM

Another news update via NIRS:

UPDATE 2:30 pm, Sunday, March 13, 2011. Tokyo Electric Power is reporting that some six
feet of the core of Unit-3 remains uncovered and has been for some time despite efforts to
pump water into the core. Tepco speculates there may be leaking pipes and water is not
remaining in the core. A translation of part of the statement from our Japanese colleagues:
"The fuel's integrity has been considerably compromised. We are assessing a considerably
serious situation."

Six feet of core uncovered is not reassuring for Unit 3, not to be confused with Unit 1 whose reactor building blew its top off.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 06:58 PM

"Unit 1 whose reactor building blew its top off."

From what I gather that was sheet metal cladding of a building that was housing the overhead crane used to service the reactor blown apart due to a hydrogen gas explosion. The reactor containment housing remains intact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:07 PM

Bobad-

We are both correct.

The building with housed the reactor containment vessel for Unit 1 was blown apart by a hydrogen gas explosion, leaving its frame exposed to the sunshine, while the site operators claim that the containment vessel has not been breached. Sorry if I was not being clear.

The video is more expressive as you can clearly see the initial shock wave of the explosion followed by smoke.

Now I was only aware of Vermont Yankee as a similar reactor to the ones at Fukushima. But there are actually some 23 nuclear reactors in the States similar in design to the ones that are melting down at the Fukushima complex. Here's the summary and assessment from NIRS:

General Electric Mark I Reactors in the United States

The Fukushima Daiichi Unit 1 reactor that exploded on Saturday, March 12, 2011, was a General Electric Mark I reactor. This design has been criticized by nuclear experts and even Nuclear Regulatory Commission staff for decades as being susceptible to explosion and containment failure.

As early as 1972, Dr. Stephen Hanuaer, an Atomic Energy Commission safety official, recommended that the pressure suppression system be discontinued and any further designs not be accepted for construction permits. Shortly thereafter, three General Electric nuclear engineers publicly resigned their prestigious positions citing dangerous shortcomings in the GE design.

An NRC analysis of the potential failure of the Mark I under accident conditions concluded in a 1985 report that Mark I failure within the first few hours following core melt would appear rather likely. In 1986, Harold Denton, then the NRC's top safety official, told an industry trade group that the "Mark I containment, especially being smaller with lower design pressure, in spite of the suppression pool, if you look at the WASH 1400 safety study, you'll find something like a 90% probability of that containment
failing."

For more information, see: http://www.nirs.org/factsheets/bwrfact.htm

Reactor   Location Size   Year operation began
Browns Ferry 1* Decatur, AL 1065 MW 1974
Browns Ferry 2* Decatur, AL 1118 MW 1974
Browns Ferry 3* Decatur, AL 1114 MW 1976
Brunswick 1* Southport, NC 938 MW 1976
Brunswick 2* Southport, NC 900 MW 1974
Cooper*   Nebraska City, NE 760 MW 1974
Dresden 2* Morris, IL 867 MW 1971
Dresden 3* Morris, IL 867 MW 1971
Duane Arnold* Cedar Rapids, IA 581 MW 1974
Hatch 1* Baxley, GA 876 MW 1974
Hatch 2* Baxley, GA 883 MW 1978
Fermi 2   Monroe, MI 1122 MW 1985
Hope Creek** Hancocks Bridge, NJ 1061 MW 1986
Fitzpatrick* Oswego, NY 852 MW 1974
Monticello* Monticello, MN 572 MW 1971
Nine Mile Point 1* Oswego, NY 621 MW 1974
Oyster Creek* Toms River, NJ 619 MW 1971
Peach Bottom 2* Lancaster, PA 1112 MW 1973
Peach Bottom 3* Lancaster, PA 1112 MW 1974
Pilgrim** Plymouth, MA 685 MW 1972
Quad Cities 1* Moline, IL 867 MW 1972
Quad Cities 2* Moline, IL 867 MW 1972
Vermont Yankee* Vernon, VT 620 MW 1973

*has received 20-year license extension from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission
**20-year license renewal extension is under review by Nuclear Regulatory Commission

Of course it's doubtful whether the NRC ever took into consideration a tsunami compromising the emergency back-up system.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:18 PM

The PM of Japan says the nuclear disaster is now stablized.

I am thinking that the reports that the temperatures are unchanged despite pouring water on the reactors is very odd. Is the gauge broken? Did the water go on the floor or into the reactor?

These old and patchwork welded repaired containment vessels are brittle and if explosed to high heat and cold at the same time would break them like glass.

In NY the water came out of the tap below freezing and would break our glasses ar room temperature regularly. this old steel holding 3000 degrees and then exposed to 40 degree water would crack the metal.

At any rate while it is very worrisom I hope that all turns out no worse than what has already occured.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:21 PM

But we can be thankful
And tranquil and proud
For man's been endowed with a mushroom shaped cloud.
And we know for certain that some lovely day
Someone will set the spark off...





And we will all be blown away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:28 PM

Charley, to get an idea of the age of this reactor this car was brand new when engineers were putting the final touches on the design.
1958-1959 top of the line model


You mentioned the poor quality of the reporting. It is truely awful. The young editors and the pretty talking heads confuse million for billion, feet for meters, hours for years. Gross mistakes that are never corrected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:33 PM

How hot is the containment vessel?

Where is the water going?

Where does it end up?


PS Bill Nye the Science guy absolutely embarrased himself and our nation with hisignorant remarks regarding these nuclear reactor malfunctions.

I don;t want the industry spokesmen, I want the real physicists with real data.

The Gov of PA at the time of the 3 MIle Island breach said the one critical factor is acting only after precise and accurate information has been collected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:34 PM

I don't know what the solar, wind and especially tidal industries are presently doing in Japan, and everywhere (although I do subscribe to an on-line site..mostly talks about Denmark it seems) but they sure as heck had better up their involvement..as should we all.

I don't know what they will do about all the debris..some of it contains bodies of course so I don't know what can or should be done in the case of autos say..compacting them..\check them all first of course if not too damaged...some probably has been washed out to sea already...mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 08:42 PM

Donuel-

You and I make mistakes but some of what the national news anchors are saying is truly outrageous.

I was just checking Wikipedia and they now have an excellent cutaway drawing of a typical BWR Mark I Containment, as used in units 1 to 5 at the Fukushima complex: click here for update!

One of the CNN "experts" was literally drooling at the prospect of selling the Japanese the next generation of nuclear power plant.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 11:14 PM

Remember the Fukashima N plant #3 that exploded and the top half of the building was entirely blown away?

Well now the lower half of the building is entirely gone and the metal girders are twisted and warped through out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 11:29 PM

It was a hydrogen explosion, so they said on TV and Reuters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 11 - 11:54 PM

The links off of this site supplied by Charley Noble is indeed noble.

http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/accidents/Fukushimafactsheet.pdf
New updates are being made and are forthcoming.


like wheels within wheels you can find the specs and cross sections of the plant was was repaired and what was not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:28 AM

Two reactors now have lost their containment buildings but the reactors are hoped to be intact.

Paul Carroll, nuclear expert, was plain spoken.

"The explosions we have seen are hydrogen gas explosions abut the containment vessels are presumed to be intact. If the containment vessels themselves should breach then we are talking about an area 1,000's of square miles that will never be safe for human habitation. If even one reactor should not merely breach but allow for a critical mass explosion it will ignire not only its 100 tons of nuclear fuel of unranium and plutonium but all the other reactors within its blast radiuw which is unknown due to the unprecedented amount of fissile material."


There must be nearly 10 reactors that would be within ground zero of the blast and many more that would no longer able to be tended or manned remotely. NO one ever expected we essentailly built a million ton nuclear bomb.


So far seawater is said to be keeping it cool enough to not get worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 06:56 AM

Reuters

"Shares in several Asian companies tumbled on Monday after the massive earthquake and tsunami in Japan that likely killed more than 10,000 people.

While manufacturers and automakers in Japan fell, construction stocks rose on expectations of increased demand. Coal and steel shares elsewhere also gained on anticipated demand in Japan."


Makes one proud to be human! Bloodsucking bastards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:12 AM

Paul Carroll

Organization: Ploughshares
Position: Policy analyst,Professional
Areas of Expertise: North Korea, Nuclear weapons development, Weapons of Mass Destruction, Security, National Security, Peace movement, Prevention of War
Personal Website: Ploughshares

Paul Carroll (CA): Program Director, Ploughshares Fund; Former Program Analyst, U.S. Department of Energy; Former Research Analyst, U.S. Congress Office of Technology Assessment; recently visited North Korea; North Korea may be choosing to restart nuclear program to get direct talks with U.S., international community can still engage with North Korea on disarmament


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:33 AM

Nuclear plant #2 now has all of its fuel rods exposed to air.

Paul Gunther says 9 Japanese Nuclear Plants are now in deep trouble.

NYT wrote that radiation clouds will last for months.



I saw a brief video of what truely appeared like a rescue by helicopter of a person at the Fukashima plant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:34 AM

Reactor 2 at Fukushima Daiichi has now lost all its coolant, with the core fully exposed (which means meltdown is inevitable).

An aftershock tsunami is just about to hit the coast at Fukushima.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:35 AM

The 3 US warshipas including an aircraft carrier sent to Japan have now pulled back 25 miles because of the radioactive plumes floating out to sea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:43 AM

Incidentally, Paul Carroll's area of expertise as it pertains to Project Ploughshares is nuclear WEAPONS, not reactors.

To FOX news, an expert is anyone who can speak a complete sentence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM

I can do complete sentences:

Criticallity is what is now continuing in Japan.

A criticality accident, sometimes referred to as an excursion or a power excursion, is an accidental increasing nuclear chain reaction in a fissile material, such as enriched uranium or plutonium. This releases a surge of neutron radiation which is highly dangerous to humans and causes induced radioactivity in the surroundings.

A critical or supercritical nuclear fission (one that is sustained in power or increasing in power) normally is supposed to occur only inside reactor cores and (very occasionally) inside some test facilities. A criticality accident occurs when a critical reaction is achieved unintentionally. Although dangerous, the low densities of fissile material and the long insertion time involved in these events limit the fission yield and peak power, preventing them from becoming a large scale nuclear explosion. The heat released by the nuclear reaction will typically cause the fissile material to expand, so that the nuclear reaction becomes subcritical again within a few seconds.

In the history of atomic power development, fewer than a dozen criticality accidents have occurred in collections of fissile materials outside nuclear reactors, but most of these have resulted in death, by radiation exposure, of the nearest person(s) to the event. However, none have resulted in explosions.


The idea of a nuclear explosion has been deemed impossible at a crippled nuclear plant. I my humble opinion this is simply not true.
The factors that the nuclear fule also contains plutonium is what makes the unthinkable runaway chain reaction a possiblility, no matter how small.



They are working furiously to find a solution to cool the core," said Mark Hibbs, a senior associate at the Nuclear Policy Program for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Nuclear agency officials said Japan was injecting seawater into the core -- an indication, Hibbs said, of "how serious the problem is and how the Japanese had to resort to unusual and improvised solutions to cool the reactor core."

Officials declined to say what the temperature was inside the troubled reactor, Unit 1. At 2,200 degrees Fahrenheit (1,200 degrees Celsius), the zirconium casings of the fuel rods can react with the cooling water and create hydrogen. At 4,000 F (2,200 C), the uranium fuel pellets inside the rods start to melt, the beginning of a meltdown

Japan is using a plutonium and uranium mix inside their reactors which make claims that a nuclear style explosion is impossible an unsubstatiated claim, in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:02 AM

With regard to Unit 3 at the Fukushima complex from the Wikipedia update link:

"Explosion of Reactor Building

At 11:15 JST on 14 March 2011, a building surrounding Reactor 3 of Fukushima 1 exploded as well, presumably due to the ignition of built up hydrogen gas.[97][98] There is no health risk reported, though 600 people have been ordered to stay indoors. Within minutes, it was reported that as with Reactor 1, the outer reactor building was blown apart, but the inner containment vessel was not breached. Eleven people were reported injured in the blast."

The fuel rods in Unit 3 are even more dangerous than the more conventional fuel rods in the other reactors in the complex, being plutonium-based MOX (mixed oxide) fuel.

This is not a good development (sorry for such understatement but it's early in the morning), and does not bode well for Unit 2 at the same complex which also has experienced loss of coolant.

Meanwhile there are reports of similar loss of coolant problems in a neighboring nuclear power complex, and at a third complex.

The US fleet off-shore has monitored increasing radiation and is being shifted out of the "plume."

So now I'm reminded of one of our chants as we marched on the Midland nuclear power plant in Michigan in the late 1970's:

One rotten nuke, two rotten nukes, see how they melt!

Another academic exercise to do while waiting for more grim news from Japan might be to identify how many of the reactors, similar to those in trouble in Japan, in the States (listed above) are located in major earthquake zones. None are listed for California, Oregon or Washington. Perhaps, only the Cooper nuclear plant in Nebraska City, NE, 760 MW, 1974.

Of course there are other types of nuclear power plants in other West Coast states and if any of them had a loss of coolant due to an earthquake, and their back-up systems failed, we would risk nuclear meltdown as well. No one really knows what the consequences of that would be (not good!) but we may soon learn in Japan.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:12 AM

Charley reactor #2 now has a fully exposed core.

Make that

One little reactor is now melting
two little reactor is now exposed
three little reactor may go critical

makes three little 500,000 ton bombs


That is not to say they will go up like a bomb.
I imagine that the explosion would be more like the site glowing brighter and brighter in a slowly expanding plasma of fission that it would look more like a slow motion ball of light than the instant detonation of a nuke.


BUT PUTTING THE IDEA OF A REAL HUGE ATOMIC EXPLOSION ON ICE FOR NOW...
the idea of 5000 degree molten uranium and plutonium burning into the earth and sexloding grand clouds of steam as sea water and the metal merge...is in a real sense even more horrendous.

It would last as a radioactive geyser for years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM

Paul Gunther says a total of 9 Nuke plants are out of control.

Water pipes have broken in Japan virtually everwhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:22 AM

No offense, but the spelling is Gunter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:25 AM

Well, look on the bright side...we may all soon be able to use our credit cards up to the hilt and never have to pay them back!

Sorry, but my black sense of humour always creeps in during disastrous moments and this is sure one of those..

WHY did mankind EVER go on to use something so evil as nuclear power? Let alone build these terrible places in earthquake zones..I mean????


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:30 AM

Official Report from FOX

Three power plants in Japan are at risk of overheating.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:33 AM

Lizzie during the cold war following WW2 the US needed nuclear plants to produce the plutonium needed to make nuclear weapons.

A big push to build these plants in the name of using the steam to power turbines which make electricity was very profitable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:39 AM

The term breeder reactor refers to plutonum being created.

The plants were built with miltary budget money and sweetheat deals that made States pay huge sums made holding companies and owners rich.

But in case you haven;t heard, nuclear power is safe


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:47 AM

People do not generally care where their electricity comes from as long as it's there for the electric toothbrush, hair dryer, power tools, etc. Like hydro-electric dams, everythings fine until something fucks up. Well, in places where there have been 'nuclear accidents' something has fucked up.

As I stated earlier (on this thread or another), there are about 450 nuclear power plants generating electricity. About 60% of them are badly in need of upgrading or repair. I also posted that about five years back and had my head handed to me by people saying I was an alarmist, didn't know what I was saying, etc. People are afraid of facts about nuclear power. The rub is this:

Electricity is generated by wind power, solar power, hydro-electric dams, coal/oil-fired generators or nuclear power plants. Neither wind nor solar power meed the so-called needs for electricity we seem to have. Many countries just can't generate power because the dams are more expensive to build and generating electricity becomes more expensive than people will or can pay. That leaves coal and oil generators. Bur coal to generate electricity and Greenpeace is chewin' yer ass. Use oil and environmentalists are chewin' yer ass. Use nuclear and some other group is chewin' it.

The answer is to use LOTS less electricity, and to force our governments to begin exploring solar power more fully. Saving 10% on one's petrol bill is nice. But then we produce 10% more cars and wonder why we ain't gettin' anywhere. Thedy are the same dumb fucks who smack their thumbs with hammers and wonder why their thumbs hurt. Go figure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Ringer
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM

The world is not going to end today. Why not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM

What car did you drive in the late 1950's??

Thats how old the design for these N plants in Japan are.



Construction began in 1960 and the plants wer finished in 1970.

They have been modified since then but mainly in the wrong direction, such as mixing plutonum and uranium in the fuel pellets.



Would you, could you drive that 1959 car you had today?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:51 AM

Don, I know people who do. They took care of the cars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:51 AM

Good articl;e Ringer.

The good doctor did not mention that these reactors were supposed to be retired after 30 years.

We have many reactors in the US that also were intended to be retired 30 years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:53 AM

Thanks for the link, Ringer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:06 AM

It's a a bit of wry irony a site advocating nuclear energy saying the world is not going to end while Fukushima 2 is believed to be in meltwown and reactors 1 and 4 damaged by hydrogen explosions barely hanging on and the wind is changing heightening fears any released radiation will go straight towards Tokyo.

No, the world won't be ending, it will be quite a different place though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:35 AM

Peter-

Please proof what you are posting or review what you are reading before you post.

It's reactor units 1 and 3 which have had their roofs and upper walls blown off by hydrogen explosions so far. Units 4, 5, and 6 are in the same Fukushima complex but were shut down for regularly scheduled maintenance before the earthquake and the tsunami and hopefully will not be affected by what is currently happening in this complex. Unit 2 appears to be in serious trouble and I would expect that it too will experience a hydrogen explosion similar to what happened to 1 and 3. Is everyone keeping score now?

Now on the topic of fuel rods Unit 3 appears to be unique at the Fukushima complex, according to what's posted at Wikipedia:

From September 2010, unit 3 has been fueled by mixed-oxide (MOX) fuel rather than low enriched uranium (LEU) used in the other reactors.

The situation is serious enough without getting the basic facts incorrect. Of course, what's posted at Wkipedia may also be incorrect but please cite sources for such statements so that we can do some follow-up rather than argue about our deeply held opinions.

Donuel's scenario described above for what might happen in a nuclear meltdown at this complex may be all too true. No, it's unlikely to be a bomb like explosion but there will certainly be a major release of highly radioactive material to the environment.

My faith in the integrity of stainless steel containment vessels is challenged by the fact that these vessels are 40 years old and are weakened by embrittlement after being bombarded by radioactive isotopes for this period.

Well, it's time to go back and continue painting the living room in the vacant apartment across the hall. Why do I hear a Peter Berryman song echoing in my ears?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:41 AM

Yes, sorry. That should have been 1 and 3.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:44 AM

I do not besmirch anyone for wanting to believe what ever gives them comfort.


The industry standard explanation of how safe reactors are is to be expected/

Please note the "Ringer lInk" speaks in the subjective future pluferfect tense...


"After the meltdown, there would have been a waiting period for the intermediate radioactive materials to decay inside the reactor, and all radioactive particles to settle on a surface inside the containment. The cooling system would have been restored eventually, and the molten core cooled to a manageable temperature. The containment would have been cleaned up on the inside. Then a messy job of removing the molten core from the containment would have begun, packing the (now solid again) fuel bit by bit into transportation containers to be shipped to processing plants."



That sounds all well and good but with not water or electricty many of the assumptions made do not apply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:07 AM

Donuel-

While I was reading that somewhat comforting quote about "meltdown clean-up" there was this cartoon Power Point presentation playing in my head, narrated by Woody Woodpecker.

I've got to get away from computers and cable for a while.

See you all later.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:59 AM

They seem to be handling it very well so far - a little venting, a little explosion, a little more venting, another little explosion, nothing major yet, which, considering, is considerable, I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:12 AM

The Diane Rheems show was most informative. The workers have done every procedure to minimize radiaton at a cost of about 3 billion dollars so far. The plutonium fuel is a 5% mix and not meant for these Mark 1 reactors which means they will melt at a lower temperature and be more toxic if a core breech should occur. France uses a 30% plutonium mix in a more advanced reactor. 18 workers have been hurt by blast or exposure. It seems that the chimney is not working so gas built up inside the building.

One could compare it to a 40 year old submarine that is below its design depth. As long as the containment "hull" holds up, the ship will survive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:19 AM

Thw world NEEDS to be a different place.

The Hopi People are out there trying to get folks to realise that 2012 will bring their prophecy to fruition, of a massive World Change in how we live, think, act...

There have been many other disasters leading up to this one, but this one will, I think, finally begin to make people terrified of nuclear power...coupled with the financial situations around the world too, which is making people open their eyes to corruption, to absolute shitty behaviour..

Japan will change the world in many ways...be it is we, the people of this beautiful, BEAUTIFUL planet who have to change our ways, our thoughts, our outlooks with more speed and more strength than any tsunami could ever bring....because if we don't, we will also wreak more havoc than all the world's tsunamis put together.

Part 1 of The Indigenous Native American Prophecy

2012 The Indigenous Elders

EVERYTHING is going wrong, not just earthquakes, not just tsunamis, not just The Corporate Bastards..It is everything...even down to the humble bumble bee...who we cannot live without....

We have poisoned this planet, not just with the chemicals we have made and poured over the Land, but with the chemicals within our minds, that have become so out of balance, so destructive....

We do not need cars.

I live a very simple life compared to many, as I do not drive..so therefore I'm very local in where I live, how I live. A day out somewhere far away is a real treat. A trip on a train is exciting.
I've been on a plane, twice...never again, hated it. I don't need to visit every country in the world, I don't need the latest gizmos and gadgets...I'm quite happy even if computers, the internet disappear, to be honest, because much as it's done a great deal of good in connecting us all together, it has also made our lives so complicated..and I'm tired of answering many questions each time I make a phone call....I'm tired of the wa it's allowed evil people to come together, throwing all the good people into the age of suspicion, where all are viewed to be possibly guilty...

I'd love to go back to small communities, simple lives, where our work was mainly for ourselves, tilling the ground, growing our own food, taking care of our families, each other....and satisfaction came, at the end of the day, from a hot meal around a fire, not from a £10,000 computer or a £30,000 car.

We make things deliberately to wear out, so more profit can be made...and all it's ended up diong is wearing US all out with worry and anxiety......

This planet is our Home, the only one we have...and we are desecrating and destroying it. We forget this planet is not just OUR home though, that we share it with every other species under the sun...who have an equal right to be here, to exist on a wonderful planet...

I grieve...

I grieve for all that we are losing, all that we have lost...and all we have yet to lose....


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:08 PM

Meltdown of fuel rods now 'likely happening' in three Fukushima reactors

From the current Guardian blog:


Japanese officials say the nuclear fuel rods appear to be melting inside all three of the most troubled nuclear reactors, according to Associated Press.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said: "Although we cannot directly check it, it's highly likely happening."


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:17 PM

I have just been looking at an aerial photo of the plant (by AFP):

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51672000/jpg/_51672113_011525965-1.jpg

You might be able to work in what's left of reactor 1. The reactor 3 building is filled with smoking rubble from this morning's explosion. Any reassurances about the state of the inner containment are pure guesswork when nobody can get near it to see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM

This thread long ago passed from one actually concerned about the distaster that struck Japan to whining and bitching liberal tree-hugger guilt trip bullshit. When liberals start that stuff it's far worse than listening to conservatives whining. At least their whining is funny.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

Meantime, the Indian PM has assured the citizenry that all their nuclear plants are safe. I will sleep well tonight.

Japan now has five malfunctioning plants. Food and water are in short supply where they are most critically needed. No tree hugging here. Maybe a whine or two for the people suffering most.
SINS


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:32 PM

You're having a good day for a change. I'm happy for you, josepp.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 01:13 PM

"... the Indian PM has assured the citizenry that all their nuclear plants are safe."

I think they have CANDUs, maybe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 01:36 PM

It ocurred to me that India has nuclear weapons. Not easy with a CANDU so I read up. My statements are way outta date! From Wiki...

In terms of safeguards against nuclear proliferation, CANDU reactors meet a similar level of international certification as other reactor designs. However, there is a common misconception that the plutonium for India's first nuclear detonation, conducted in 1974 Operation Smiling Buddha, was produced in a CANDU design. In fact, the plutonium was produced in the unsafeguarded CIRUS reactor whose design is based on the NRX, a Canadian research reactor. In addition to its two CANDU reactors, India has some unsafeguarded pressurised heavy water reactors (PHWRs) based on the CANDU design, and two safeguarded light-water reactors supplied by the United States. Plutonium has been extracted from the spent fuel from all of these sources in the PREFRE reprocessing facility.[18] While all of these reactors could in principle be used for plutonium production, India uses an Indian designed and built military reactor for plutonium production called Dhruva. It is believed that the Dhruva reactor design is derived from the CIRUS reactor, with the Dhruva being scaled-up for more efficient plutonium production. It is this reactor which is thought to have produced the plutonium for India's more recent (1998) Operation Shakti nuclear tests.[19]


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM

"Japan now has five malfunctioning plants."


No.. 5 reactors at two 'plants'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 01:46 PM

You have to find yourself on a planet that has no trees left. Then you might begin to relate to the idea of hugging one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 01:58 PM

And, further... "India: 2 (+13 CANDU-derivatives in use, +3 CANDU-derivatives under construction)"

Essentially, only the two CANDUs can be considered "safe" (well, "safer" than other designs).

Thank goodness our new (last fall) premier shelved a feasibility study for a French light water plant in our province. Our CANDU refurbishment has be delayed many times and it's scheduled to be back on line in the fall of 2012.

As for Japan, I haven't been able to bring myself to check the latest news or watch any of it on TV today. Donuel talked of a helpless feeling. I think the world feels the same way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 02:04 PM

Saw a cartoon. About fifty dogs sitting in a line. The lone tree in the frame showed a dog peeing. Like, I can relate, LH.

Once upon a time in the Sahara Forest . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 02:34 PM

TEPCO released 5 press releases so far today. None give much information. (Google for Tepco- easier than giving links which are soon out of date)

Unit 3- "It is believed that the reactor containment vessel remains intact. However, the status ......"

Unit 2- Applying preventive measures to wall of reactor building to ventilate the hydrogen gas. Reactor core cooling failed, incident reported.

Most of what is posted above by various individuals and news services concerning conditions at the plants is speculation. .....
Could be better, could be worse......

Have a nice day!


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 03:04 PM

Just read a bunch of stuff. While it seems like a "who knows?", the fact that the USN has backed off 25 miles kinda gives me the willies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 03:07 PM

I stand corrected Bill.
Reuters seems to think the worst is over:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/14/us-japan-nuclear-radiation-risk-idUSTRE72D6UC20110314

Hope they are right.
SINS


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 03:25 PM

I heard on the radio coming back from errands that the fire truck providing the pump for the salt water for Unit 2 at Fukushima had run out of gas...the fuel rods were exposed and pressure was building up again in the reactor chamber.

Ads a note to everyone, looking closely at the cutaway diagram at Wikipedia for this type of reactor, there is a reactor chamber within which the fission reaction happens and heats the water coming in to boiling. The steam escapes out a pipe at the top and is used for running the electrical turbines. The entire reactor chamber is encased in a reactor containment vessel which evidently has not been breached. The reactor building was an additional layer of containment but the hydrogen blast blew out the roof and upper walls.

The saltwater is still being pumped in around the reactor chamber in Unit 1 and 3. It's unclear what is happening to the saltwater afterwards, whether it's being drained back into the bay. There are not a lot of good options left for dealing with that problem.

Josepp-

I had hopes you would contribute more to this thread than your own polemics. Shape up or ship out! We're both too old for that kind of nonsense.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 05:54 PM

IAEA update - International Atomic Energy Agency


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 06:15 PM

Here's the latest update prepared by the Nuclear Information Resource Center:

UPDATE 12:30 pm, Monday, March 14, 2011. According to our colleagues in Japan, Tokyo
Electric Power states that Fukushima Daiichi-2 "has again lost its coolant (sea water was
pumped in but is dropping). They cannot ease the reactor pressure because the relief valve is stuck closed. Air dose rate on site (outside the reactor building) was 3,130 at around 9:30pm."
We believe the 3,130 figure means 3130 MicroSievert/hour, which would be highest reading yet recorded—about 310 millirems/hour. For comparison, the U.S. EPA allowable dose to a member of the public from a single reactor is 25 millirems/year, the U.S. NRC's allowable dose is 100 millirems/year from all nuclear sources.

From the regular media reports it appears that the Japanese have been able to resume pumping saltwater into Unit 2 at Fukashima, the plant where fuels rods were being exposed. That is better news in a dire situation.

I've watched Wolf Blitzer get outmaneuvered by an expert from a nuclear industry lobby just now. He claims that US nuclear plants in earthquake zones are built to standards appropriate to the conditions where they are located. Well, that was also true of Fukushima and the other troubled nuclear complexes in Japan, and the standards have proved inadequate. His back-up position was that we need to learn lessons from this event and move on with a new generation of improved nuclear plants. Well, there's something to be said for that, if the nuclear industry is willing to shut down all their existing plants for recertification. But Blitzer winged it to another aspect of the disaster.

Other "experts" are advocating fusion plants, a theoretically interesting concept but unproven as operational systems.

At this point I'd entertain the concept of switching to whale oil as an alternative (hey, whales, I'm only joking!), before plunking for fusion.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:06 PM

Charley... what about the CANDU? It's the safest design there is from what I have read (I am NOT well read on this subject). It's more costly and you can't build a lotta nuclear bombs with them, but...?

Sorry for the thread drift.

Back to the thread... if the valve is u/s and the fuel is dry... are we talking a nasty SPEW?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:14 PM

So the fate of Japan and possibly the world depends on one firetruck that ran out of gas? Why wasn't there more gas standing by? I know gas is short but this should be top priority. THere seem to be lots of fishing boats floating about..capture gas from them.

Whoever engineered this thing that could be stopped by a firetruck running out of gas should be stripped of her professional certification. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:26 PM

if the valve is u/s and the fuel is dry... are we talking a nasty SPEW?

Luckily this kind of thing doesn't happen often enough to estimate the likelihood.

Maybe, maybe not. It's worse than Three Mile Island now, but not as bad as Chernobyl or Kyshtym. That's about all anybody can say on the facts we've got.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:29 PM

mg, I am speechless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:36 PM

Al-Jazeera reports a new explosion, at Fukushima Reactor 2 this time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:38 PM

Japanese TV has reported a containment vessel breech and a sharp increase in radiation


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:40 PM

A new evacuation distance has been ordered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:47 PM

Perhaps only a vlave has burst. They suspect that air from the containment vessel is coming out. They can not be sure about the bottom of the containment vessel but they mentioned that the vessel has lost its water.

100 tons of 95% uranium and 5% Plutonium shoudld not be allowed to collect into one giant ball.

Despite the danger boron and water should still be poured on this mess despite the risk of steam explosions and drastic radiation release. ITs better than the small chance of criticality growing into a runaway chain reaction. Yes I know they say this is impossible but at temps over 5000F we have no experiments to refer to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:49 PM

for lack of a nail a war was lost.



At one point the portable generator brought on site could not be used because the plugs did not match.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:00 PM

ABC coverage of second explosion

This third explosion happened within the hour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:13 PM

According to the BBC weather page, the wind is currently blowing straight from Fukushima towards Tokyo and will stay that way for a day or so. Rain tomorrow night. If the thing blows soon this is about the worst weather situation imaginable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:16 PM

Unit 2 has blown its roof and walls off. No one is certain what else has happened.

Take a deep breath.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:42 PM

NHKworld English here:
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/index.html

NHK is the official Japanese broadcaster. The latest story, dated March 15, 0:11 UTC, reports that TEPCO failed to raise water level in reactor Number 2, and fuel rods remain exposed.

Updated 07:48 UTC- Seawater was let into the reactor starting 1:00AM, but "as of 3:00AM, the water level remains low and the fuel rods remain exposed."
A TEPCO official (at 04:27 AM) said fuel rods may have overheated and begun melting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:13 PM

Charley are you saying that sll three reactors are now without the outer buildings?

first 3 went then 1 then 2 was heard to have an explosion and NHK TV showed a picture soley of the containment vessel and explained that pressure dropped and radiation increased,


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:26 PM

The spokesman for the Union of Concerned Scientists, David Laughbaum, is worried now of MNBC that the primary containment of Unit 2 has ruptured, given that the pressure has dropped dramatically inside since the explosion. If that is true, we're now in a whole different class of nuclear incidence.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:16 PM

He also mentioned that one doesn't have to take iodine tablets, as the radioactive iodine only gets into people who eat stuff that comes out of cows after cows eat contaminated grass. Cows in Japan, not the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:16 PM

New update from NIRS:

"UPDATE 7:30 pm, Monday, March 14, 2011. Tokyo Electric Power is holding a press
conference at this hour. Video stream is at http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-gtv2. NHK
TV reports that there has been an explosion at Unit 2 at Fukushima Daiichi. There is
speculation that this explosion has damaged the primary containment (inside the concrete
containment building, which is the secondary containment. Tepco is evacuating some non-
essential personnel from the reactor site. 2.5 meters of the core are currently uncovered by
water—which means it is almost certainly melting. Winds from the site are currently blowing
toward the North. "

The accident is now being characterized by MNBC nuclear spokespeople as worse than Three Mile Island, which was a partial meltdown of the core without a major release of radiation to the environment. Japanese plant workers are still onsite attempting to cool all three reactors with sea water. Non-essential utility staff have been evacuated.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:18 PM

Fire in the 4th reactor. Japanese PM is telling people to stay at least 19 miles away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:19 PM

From rt.com (Russia Today): "4th reactor at damaged nuclear plant on fire, more radiation released - Japan official"


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:24 PM

We lived through Chernobyl, and we'll live through this.

A breach of the containment wall would be dangerous for people within a radius that does NOT include North America.

I could be wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:40 PM

The fire reported by Japanese Prime Minister is in the spent fuel pool of Unit 4 at the Fukushima complex. I've mentioned that as a possible major problem up above. This is very bad.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:07 PM

I just watched the explosion of the containment vessel fo #2 .
It was a TREMENDOUS BLAST sending steel concret and qoo tons of Plutonium and uranium 1000 feet into the air.

This was unlike all of the hydrogen gas pops.


Reactor 4 is on fire becasue the new rods to be instaled in dhutdown reactor 4 and the spenmt fuel rods are exposed to air and hundreds of tons of nuclear fuel is now on fire.

Every worst case meltdown scenario is now taking place

Short of a a fssion explosion this is a fission explosion in slow motion involving unimagined amounts of nuclear fuel.

There remains more reactors that are in the same shape that these 4 reactors were in 2 days ago.

There are virtually no more workers to do anything on site such as pour seawater and boron.

From here on out any workers who try to dump boron on the scene will do so at the cost of their lives within 30 days.

Nuclear industry spokespeople who have spun the wonderful safty backup plans and total impossibility of anything like Chernobyl should now shut the fuck up. That includes Glen Beck who said no one was ever hurt by the the private nuclear industry be it 3 mile Island or even Japan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:11 PM

The PM of Japan has admitted that vast mounts of radiation capable of immediately harming human health is now being released.


Anderson Cooper continues to drone on about overturned cars in the town of Sendai..


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:20 PM

The Japanese are both proud and tough. Our rational action is to send    emergency workers now, and allow the Japanese to refuse entry.

Sorry folks, but Canada has offered people (volunteers, all of 'em) who are no-shit nuclear we got a problem types. The Japanese have so far not called.

Zaibatsu, call home!


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:33 PM

I should stay out of this discussion but there are a few things that I will say. The disaster in Japan has torn at everyones heart in the last few days and I am no exception. The force of the tidal wave (yes,I know it has a different name now)was beyond belief! God only knows what the final count of those lost will be but it is going to be in the tens of thousands from direct effect of the quake alone. As for the power plants in question if there is an emission from radioactive debris like cesium many more lives could be lost spanning decades to come.
I am no scientist but I do not believe that it is possible to create any atomic blast from fuel grade enriched uranium melted down or otherwise. I say this because this grade of refinement of uranium is not pure enough to create an uncontrolled chain reaction like a bomb. In order for a reactor to attain fission many fine tolerances must be met and in order to create fission of uranium of less than about 85% U-235 neutron bullets must be slowed down in order to gain a collision with its neighbour atom. These requirements do not happen by chance but require intentional input.
That being said any chemical based explosion releasing debris into the air is no trivial concern! I do however believe that to run around like Chicken Little proclaiming an impossible situation is irresponsible.
I am at a bit of a loss to comprehend why Japan would ever allow a light water enriched grade reactor on its soil. The plutonium by-product has attraction for nations wanting that element for weapons but Japan has no nuclear weapon use or manufacturing ability.
The CANDU system mentioned earlier has less volatility because it uses natural uranium which requires no enriching centrifuge and can be quickly shut down by inserting dampening rods into the reactor core as well as by replacing the deuterium bath with light water. I believe that the system is fail-safed to do this automatically in an emergency. It is also my understanding that a large pool of light water sits above the reactor core ready to spill in in an emergency situation as well requiring no powered pumps.
Many things in nuclear physics are beyond my feeble comprehension but I do understand panic!
               Sandy


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:16 AM

U235 or U236 is not as potent as U238 but if you add PU and add certain temps and pressures from say 100 tons, it can cause an atomic like blast. Not well known but even 3 MIle Island faced near detonation levels. My only contention is that it is not true that there is 0% chance of atomic proportion explosions. Maybe it is best to leave that one untested possiblilty to "never say never".

I fully expected that Chicken Little would enter into the conversation. When I speak with unabashed honesty the charge of irresponsible is in my book over the top. But everyone has a different idea what the top is I suppose.

I admit I do not like nuclear plants. I never did even when I did not have a personal reason.


The personal reason I have had a vitriolic attitude toward nuclear power plants and radiation hazards, is the fact my only sister was killed by radioactive poisoning. During the cold war she was a test subject in the Army WAC for radioactive Iodine experiments. The 26 year horror of the slow necrotic death is too savage to tell in detail.

From the video I just saw of reactor #2, I believe my eyes over the polite but tense words of the TEPCO comapany spokesman who said the workers are evacuated, further release of radiation is expected and the levels are now immediately hazardous to human health. Stay indoors. If possible extend the evacuation area to 26 miles.


One last word about irrespondisibility.

In the face of these latest nuclear events, don't you dare direct irrespondsibility charges at me.

All of us will eventually come to know the people and companies who are truely irrespondsible, even if only for the most simple and ignoranat mistake.

Go ahead and believe Sen Alexander or Bret Baier or even Glen Beck if you think it is the right point of view or the right thing to do.

I have been as forth coming and as honest as I know how to be.
In critical matters I continue to believe it is paramount to be critically honest and still try to find the time to laugh when we can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:22 AM

Why?
IT may be against treaty regulation but we are still building nuclear weapons. Breeder reactors are and always have been the PU factory that keeps on giving. We refine it at several locations. WAshington COlorado and TeNnesee. War is is racket and you can't have one without weapons.

We have a grand surplus especially from Russian missles we dismantle.
We do have a tritium shirrtage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:27 AM

Sandy's post is just what we needed about now, imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Naemanson
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:39 AM

You should know that the news you are getting out of Japan is a little late. If you want up-to-the-minute news you should check out NHK World. That is the Japanese equivalent to PBS in the USA and it is in English. They have other languages for those more comfortable in their first tongue.

NHK World

My wife's family are all safe from the earthquake and the tsunamis(for those who didn't see one of my posts on other threads). Now the radiation may be blowing down over them. I'm going to suggest to Wakana that we invite them to stay with us in Guam for a while.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:49 AM

Thanks for the link. Just watched NHK. At 20 to 30km, stay indoors, use masks or wet towels if you have to go outdoors, don't eat things exposed to the air... frightening stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 07:38 AM

The NHK stuff requires some sort of plugin for you to watch it, so I haven't.

Of the sources I've looked at on the web, Russia Today seems to be providing the best combination of timeliness and quality in its coverage at the moment. BBC Live repeats way too much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 07:45 AM

I get it using IE.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:05 AM

This was posted by John Weldon on Facebook, I thought it worthy of being re-posted here:

"The saddest aspect of the Japanese tragedy is that the safest form of energy, nuclear power, will once again get a bad rap. When it goes wrong, it's dramatic and news-worthy. Thousands die. Whereas the millions who die by (and for) fossil fuel are just boring statistics."


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:12 AM

And a word of praise for the incredibly brave people who have stayed on site to put out the fires and try to stop the meltdown. I could not have done that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM

The general tone of Sandy's post is reassuring with regard to the possibility of a nuclear explosion at the Fukushima complex. That is the conventional wisdom. And we all hope it is correct.

However, Sandy's dead wrong with regard to nuclear fission, which is exactly what nuclear plants are designed to do in a controlled fashion to heat water, produce steam, and run turbines to generate electricity.

I'm not finding any clear information this morning on the details of what happened in the explosion reported last night at Unit 2, just conflicting reports. Evidently the fire was put out at the spent fuel in Unit 4 but unless the water flow is maintained in all six spent fuel pools at the Fukushima complex there will be additional fires and high level nuclear waste escaping into the surrounding downwind environment.

Nothing new at NIRS this morning and very little at Wikipedia Fukushima.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM

The latest is that radiation levels are now too high for staff to remain in the control rooms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:29 AM

Please cite sources for follow-up.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:40 AM

The updates of what is happening at the neighboring Fukushima 2 complex in Naraha indicate that the situation there has been brought under control (from Wikipedia Fukushima II):

"After the March 11, 2011 Sendai earthquake and tsunami, Nuclear Engineering International reported that all four units were automatically shut down.[1] Tokyo Electric on March 12 reported that the cooling system for three reactors (numbers 1, 2 and 4) at the plant had topped 100 °C between 05:30 and 06:10 JST. This happened after the emergency core cooling systems had failed and less than one hour after the start of additional cooling with condensate water.[8][9][10] The emergency core coolant systems were repaired and acitivated in Units 1, 2 and 4 in the days following the emergency shutdown.[8] Coolant temperatures below 100°C (cold shutdown) were reached in reactor 2, about 34 hours after the emergency shut down (SCRAM).[8] Reactors 1 and 3 followed at 1:24 and 3:52 on 14 March and Reactor 4 at 7:00 on 15 March.[11]

Officials made preparations for release of pressure from the plant on March 12.[12][13] As of 14 March, however, no pressure release had taken place."

That is the good news this morning.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:43 AM

Here's the 8 am update from NIRS this morning:

"UPDATE 8:15 am, Tuesday, March 15, 2011. The situation at Fukushima is going from bad to worse. There was briefly a fire in the irradiated fuel pool at Unit 4. The fire is said to be extinguished for now.

Most disturbingly, Tokyo Electric Power (Tepco) has evacuated all but 50 people from the reactor site. This skeleton crew (of heroic workers) is not likely to be enough to handle simultaneous crises at four reactors and four fuel pools. This may well be a sign that Tepco has given up hope that it can successfully contain this crisis and prevent full meltdowns.

Radiation levels at the site increased overnight (US time) but have dropped a little more recently. Reading in one location was about 4 Rems/Hour. At the site gate readings have dropped from slightly above 1 Rem/hour at 9:30 am (Tokyo time) to about 50 millirems/hour at 3:30 pm (Tokyo time).

Detectable (although still quite low) radiation levels have been recorded in Tokyo, nearly 200 miles to the south.

A 30 kilometer (18.6 miles) exclusion zone has been set up around the site. No one is being allowed inside this zone. However, only residents within 20 kilometers of the site so far have been evacuated; residents from 20-30 kilometers are being told to take shelter indoors.

There is no indication whatsoever that grid power will be available anytime soon. Without power to run safety systems and the clear inability to provide adequate backup power, there is unfortunately little likelihood this crisis can be contained."

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM

Fukashima actual radiation readings are censored all this week and are subject to government scrutiny only.
however

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/gamma-radiation-fukushima-downwind-ibaraki-disclosed-30-times-above-normal


US reports Tokyp either at slightly above normal to 10 times normal.

I am used to curies as a scale but Japan uses another. by their scale they say the N plant is at 420/hr and that 25/day is normal.

There are now 5 workers per Fukashima reactor who have vowed to stay despite the certainty of radiation sickness. IT is part of the Bushido code to bravely sacrifice oneself to the end no matter what the odds. There are 1- reactors in total at the Fukashima sites which makes a total of 50 workers who will work to the end.

between 700 and 800 other Fukawhima workers have been evacuated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:09 AM

I assume everyone has seen the hydrogen explosions that took the roof off the reactor buildings along with upper walls. Those hydrogen explosions and a bit higher than the light towers at the plant. Those were hydrogen pops compared to the explosion that has now cleared the plant.

I assume you did not see the new and fateful explosion that changed everything. This explosion was of the only thing left to explode at reactor 2. It is the containment vessel. IT reaches nearly 8,000 feet in seconds and continues to go higher. After this explosion over 700 workers were evacuated.

It is far more impressive in HD where you can see individual components of the vessel wreakage. But here is a quick low quality view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_N-wNFSGyQ


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:14 AM

Curies and sieverts measure different things. Curies measure how active a source is, sieverts measure how much damage a human has received.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionizing_radiation_units

Wind is dying down at Fukushima, heavy rain forecast, which will help keep radiation releases localized. Tomorrow the wind will get up and blow out to sea. Bye-bye to the fishing industry in the northern Pacific.

John Weldon appears to be technology's answer to Walkaboutsverse. I guess he has a financial stake in talking bollocks.

Those 50 workers staying behind are up there with the 47 Ronin. Let's hope their families get properly looked after.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:21 AM

Here's a more comprehensive summary of the worsening situation at the Fukushima complex from the Union of Concerned Scientists: click here for update!

There's the assumption here that both the primary and secondary containment structures have been compromised at the Unit 2 reactor.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:57 AM

Update of status of reactors at Fukushima, from Kyodo News agency


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:59 AM

Nuclear fears prompt rush for pills in B.C.


the following is a comment posted by a reader from that CBC news article .......

"Well, once again, we have to ask ourselves - can we believe what the governments and health agencies are telling us? Historically speaking, their reputation for being totally forthcoming is sadly very poor. On top of that, Japanese officials have kept assuring us all that nothing was going to happen, and yet, explosions keep happening and radiation keeps being released. And they have now increased the distance for people to "seal" themselves into their homes from 20 km to 30 km. That entire area should be evacuated, as sealing yourself in (with what I might add) will do nothing, unless they have some sort of bubble they can seal themselves into, with food and water, etc., and we know that is not happening. These people, this country, needs help. They also need to be told that building nuclear power plants in areas that are a high risk for earthquakes puts us all at risk. How much of this will end up in our oceans and our air and our soil? All more reasons for sourcing power from truly clean sources, like wind, tidal, and solar. In fact, clean nuclear power is an oxymoron. If there was never an accident, the waste it produces will destroy life for long after we are gone, and it keeps building up from these plants."

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:03 AM

segment of status report
stricken reactors at Fukushima nuclear power plants
TOKYO, March 15, Kyodo

The following is the known status as of Tuesday evening for each of the six reactors at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant and the four reactors at the Fukushima No. 2 plant, both in Fukushima Prefecture, crippled by Friday's magnitude 9.0 earthquake and ensuing tsunami.

Fukushima No. 1

-- Reactor No. 1 - Cooling failure, partial melting of core, vapor vented, hydrogen explosion, seawater pumped in.

-- Reactor No. 2 - Cooling failure, seawater pumped in, fuel rods fully exposed temporarily, damage to containment system, potential meltdown feared.

-- Reactor No. 3 - Cooling failure, partial melting of core feared, vapor vented, seawater pumped in, hydrogen explosion, high-level radiation measured nearby.

-- Reactor No. 4 - Under maintenance when quake struck, fire caused possibly by hydrogen explosion at pool holding spent fuel rods, pool water levels feared receding.

-- Reactor No. 5 - Under maintenance when quake struck.

-- Reactor No. 6 - Under maintenance when quake struck.

Fukushima No. 2

-- Reactor No. 1 - Cooling failure, then cold shutdown.

-- Reactor No. 2 - Cooling failure, then cold shutdown.

-- Reactor No. 3 - Cold shutdown.

-- Reactor No. 4 - Cooling failure, then cold shutdown.

==Kyodo


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:14 AM

I tried to post this earlier but it was lost in cyberspace.
Donuel, I am truly sorry about your sister. I do however question the source and accuracy of your postings.
The situation in Japan is truly awful and what may be to come perhaps worse. I claim no expertise in nuclear physics but rely on simpler dumbed down theory that I can comprehend.
The most prevalent fissile isotope of uranium is U-235 which is found in natural uranium at a concentration of between .7 and .8 of 1%. The much larger body of natural uranium is U-238 which is not fissile and is actually an impediment to a chain reaction. Fuel for light water reactors is enriched to a concentration of about 5% U-235.
U-235 of weapons grade must usually be above 85%. I believe that nuclear explosions, including the Hiroshima bomb, were created at about 80% U-235 by using a pressure cone containing neutron reflectors. At the concentration level of power plant fuel an atomic blast is not possible. However fission is attained by reaching a critical mass in a reactor core but the difficulty is as much in keeping the reaction going as regulating it. The byproducts of fission , not the explosive potential is where the danger of human disaster lies! Explosions of a chemical nature can be massive distributing radioactive poison far and wide and that is the real concern.   
Donuel you state "Go ahead and believe Sen Alexander or Bret Baier or even Glen Beck if you think it is the right point of view or the right thing to do."
I must admit in my ignorance that I have never heard of any of them. Who are they?
                                                                            Sandy


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:40 AM

A powerful earthquake with a preliminary magnitude of 6.0 jolted central Japan on Tuesday night.

The Japan Meteorological Agency says the quake with an intensity of 6 plus on the Japanese seismic scale zero to 7 hit at 10:31 PM.

The focus of the quake is in the eastern part of Shizuoka Prefecture and is estimated to be at a depth of 10 kilometers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:51 AM

The summary that Donuel has posted above presents in my opinion an accurate picture of what appears to be happening at the Japan end, and correlates with what the Union of Concerned Scientists say in their morning summary.

Sandy-

You continue to muddy the waters with your basic misunderstanding about the fission process in a normal operating nuclear reactor. Please review some of the links above.

I also don't believe there will be nuclear explosion (equivalent to a nuclear bomb explosion) from a set of runaway reactors and spent fuel pools such as we are observing at the Fukushima 1 complex (with its 6 reactors). But there may be some kind of additional explosion or explosions as the reactors continue to melt down and the spent fuel pools continue to lose coolant which could fill the air with highly radioactive Cesium, Uranium, Plutonium and other isotopes. Do you disagree or do you just fail to comprehend what the potential danger is? I wish I knew a whole lot less about what might happen.

Now experts do disagree of exactly what might happen after a meltdown. The partial meltdown at Three Mile Island (and most people are unaware that there was such a meltdown since the report wasn't issued until a year later) was successfully contained within the containment dome. However, most experts now agree that the primary and secondary containment structures at Unit 2 at Fukushima are ruptured and that we are now in new territory with regard to what will happen next.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:52 AM

radiation goes down all is stable and shut down



You see the rhetoric and the reality do not match.
That is because there are two simultaneouss stuggles.
One struggle is to contend with real catastrophic developments
and the other is to fight for the attention of public opinion.

Shaping public opinion is usually done to educate the masses to accept an ideology of big business and political figureheads to take money from the masses and apply it as business sees fit.

The sickening corruption of public opinion regarding this emerging radioactive disaster does not serve to placate and calm people but only serves to create total mistrust and as a result increases panic.

I should not have to explain this to intelligent people.


Academic discussions of how big a ball of PU does it take to create a spontaneous atomic blast is not the point. The point is that the Fukushima disaster is a world sickening event at proportions never even imagined before. The amount of nuclear fuel that has been released and the amount that is left unattended that may be released is near 6 figure metric tons of the most radioactive elements on Earth.

When facts are so grim that they are unbelievable, there are people of greed who will exploit the public for their own selfish profits at the cost of lives, property and the future.


To dismiss these events as a non event in the scheme of things , as some people are reporting on FOX news is worse than criminal, it is being an accomplice to murder...which is my opinion not to be confused with facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM

Shifting focus to the "spent fuel pools" at the Fukushima Complex and her is a link to a new graphic at Wikipedia which shows where they are located in this design: click here for update!

Each reactor has its own spent fuel pool and its located rather high up in the building which surrounds the reactor and its primary containment. Given there location they would appear to be highly vulnerable to the kind of explosions that have already taken place at Units 1, 2, and 3. After 40 years of operation they would be packed with still highly radioactive "spent fuel" rods, and if their coolant is lost through a breach or evaporation, they could indeed catch fire.

Evidently the spent fuel in Unit 4 did catch fire earlier today but the company claims that the fire was successfully put out. I'm puzzled why there was such a problem in this unit when it was already in cold-shutdown status, unless no one noticed that the spent fuel pool was no longer being supplied with coolant until it was too late.

There have been a number of human errors that have contributed to the unfolding catastrophe at Fukushima Complex 1. It's understandable that the workers might make errors in such an unprecedented emergency, but such errors have consequences. Evidently the workers at the neighboring Fukushima Complex 2 have been more successful in stabilizing their four reactors.

When this accident is reviewed I predict that its primary causes will be attributed to:

Failure to design the complex to the standards needed to survive a level 9 earthquake and tsunami

Human error in trying to stabilize the reactors after the cooling pumps failed.

Unlike other technologies for producing energy, nuclear energy is intolerant of major design failures and human errors, and the consequences can be catastrophic.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:27 PM

"50 millirems/"

"Reading in one location was about 4 Rems/Hour. At the site gate readings have dropped from slightly above 1 Rem/hour at 9:30 am (Tokyo time) to about 50 millirems/hour at 3:30 pm (Tokyo time)."

The plural of rem is rem not rems. Millirem not millirems. Rem is a measurement of biological destruction not a measure of radiation. That would be rads. How much of this stuff can you believe? Sitting there keeping track of every little new tidbit about this disaster seems to me to be highly unproductive and morbidly paranoid. It happened, folks, get over it. Sitting there biting your nails doesn't improve the situation. Get on with your lives. Or at least find lives to get on with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:30 PM

WHAT???? You're suggesting calm? Acceptance of reality??? Dealing with what we can deal with and not obsessing about things that are way beyond our control?

What are you, some sort of dangerous, antisocial radical?

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:44 PM

josepp-

"It happened, folks, get over it. Sitting there biting your nails doesn't improve the situation. Get on with your lives. Or at least find lives to get on with."

Hope you're having a very nice day.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:45 PM

Still stunned at the dedication and bravery of 50 people who have agreed to remain and try to contain events at four (is it four now?) reactors. They are all heroes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:52 PM

I with you on that Sinsull .... they certainly are the unsung heros of this tragedy.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:04 PM

The Japanese are famous for that sort of altruistic self-sacrifice. It is very heroic indeed. The Russian firemen were similarly heroic at Chernobyl.

Had a look at that last explosion, Donuel. It looks a hell of a lot bigger than a hydrogen explosion, such as was seen earlier at those reactors. I am glad I don't live near any nuclear power plants. I think the nearest one is east of Toronto, along the shore of Lake Ontario, and that's considerably southeast of where I live...about 2 hours from here on the highway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:12 PM

Hello G.E. (I knew it was you!)

Nukes make not only energy but weapons and don't think the Nuke Industry
is developing it's potent ecological disastrous energy policy just to run light bulbs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:20 PM

While we're waiting for further updates, here's a relevant review of Californian nuclear power plants, their design specs and their assumptions about earthquakes and tsunamies: click here for report!

What I find particularly disturbing is the San Onofre Nuclear Power Plant. It's located right on the coastal plain and is designed to survive a 7.0 earthquake and a 25-foot tall tsunami. Those are similar design specs to those that failed at Fukushima.

Someone will be sure to post next that I am comparing "apples with oranges" and I wish I were. Neither apples or oranges are likely to adversely affect the environment.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:23 PM

Charley the intent of my postings was not to argue. My point was that it will not create a nuclear explosion but chemical explosions spreading radioactive poison can be totally disastrous. What I see in your posts seems to say much the same thing. I said that U-238 is not fissile and enriched uranium of about 5% U-235 is required in a light water reactor. I also said that enrichment to about 85% U-235 is needed for an atomic blast. If this is incorrect then I stand corrected. I know that some isotopes of plutonium are fissile and can be created from U-238 under some conditions but they would have to be concentrated
before being atomically explosive. In no way am I saying by intent or ignorance that the situation is not critical!


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:50 PM

L.H. ... I live rather close to Lapreau nuke station here on the Bay of Fundy.

Today at lunch the head of N.B. Power was on the CBC reassuring that the safety standards of this nuke power station (even though it is built on a fault line) are so that it can survive an earthquake of great magnitude and that we shouldn't worry. OK, ... there was no mention that the Bay of Fundy has the highest tides in the world .... so, in the event of an earthquake ... well, ... bottom line we put so much faith in our governments and coporations as such to ensure that our safety is foremost on their agendas. yeah right, everything is ok kids we're in good hands.

What is happening over in Japan is a tragedy that is beyond our comprehension .... the ensuing goat f**k with the nuclear reactors is evidence that our technology is also beyond our comprehnsion ... we can only hope that out of all of this there is something to be learned.

biLL
biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:22 PM

Bill-

Those of us who live in Maine are always aware of the nuclear power plants at Point Lapreau in New Brunswick and Seabrook in New Hampshire. Major earthquakes appear unlikely but either one could be compromised by a terrorist raid from the ground, sea or air.

As these power plants age, there are also concerns about embrittlement of their containment barriers.

We're happy that the owners of Maine Yankee finally say the wisdom of shutting down their nuclear power plant ten years early. Of course we're still left with tons of high level spent fuel in dry cask storage on site for the next ten thousand years or so.

No worthwhile updates from CNN or NSNBC.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:37 PM

"And a word of praise for the incredibly brave people who have stayed on site to put out the fires and try to stop the meltdown. I could not have done that."

Yes you could, Mary.

Bravery is far more common that we suspect. Even in ourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM

Hey Charlie ... The point I was trying to make (I didn't cmake myself clear) was that this head guy from NB Power was going on about in the event of the possibility of an earthquake and how we shouldn't be concerned ... after all that has happened we are aware it isn't the earthquake that has caused the issues over in Japan but the ensuing 'tidal wave'.

Of course the odds are there probabbly won't be an earthquke of such magnitude here in N.B. ... but .....

Anyway ... Maine had the sense to close down it's nuke stations.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM

NHKnews-
Chief Cabinet Secretary Edano states temperatures are rising at reators 5 and 6 due to malfunctioning of cooling systems caused by the quake.
He said workers were trying to prevent possible hydrogen gas explosions similar to that in the number four reactor.

All reactors now seem to be involved. Extent of damage at number 2 not known. The rods were completely exposed for 8 hours.

Injection of water into number 2 reactor is not yet stable. Early on Tuesday, radiation levels as high as 8217 microsieverts per hour were measured around the plant's main entrance, but have since dropped drastically. Detected levels in Tokyo "pose no health danger."
Tuesday, March 15, 18:53+ (0900)JST.

NHK ustream has clear, easily understood broadcasters. No tidal damage is expected from the 6.4 earthquake.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:07 PM

SINS... indeed.

Sandy... I knew what you meant. I think Charley was just reading too fsat. He means well, you know. >:-)

LH... two hours by road. Hahahahaa. Good one.

sIx... LePreau is a CANDU built in one of the least active seismic zones in the world on ordovician (440 to 490M years ago) bedrock. The reinforced concrete containment was as thick as yer dick and it's been thickened during the refurbishment. The only seismic event that could fuck up LePreau is if the bedrock sheared vertically AT the reactor building and have more faith in me winning the $50M Lotto Max. CANDUs, as Sandy has pointed out, have redundant automatic and manual shutdown systems augmented by fail-safe, redundant automatic and manual powerless shutdown mechanisms.

If you are concerned about LePreau, a letter to the editor of the Telegraph lauding the actions by our new premier in shelving the study of having the French build a light water reactor instead of a CANDU for LePreau 2 should be a consideration.

Having said all that (which is a brief and partial "summary"), I see someone in Ontario won the $50M. Better get some fresh iodide pills next summer. Let me know if you find a good deal eh buddy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:18 PM

Charley... "Major earthquakes appear unlikely but either one could be compromised by a terrorist raid from the ground, sea or air."

They would have to have a nuke to mess up LePreau.

sIx... "after all that has happened we are aware it isn't the earthquake that has caused the issues over in Japan but the ensuing 'tidal wave'."

A tsunami ain't shit against twenty feet of re-con and redundant redundant redundant redundant auto and manual shutdown systems. If there is a tsunami big enough to mess with LePreau, say hi to St. Peter for me. The guys at LePreau won't get the chance.

Of course, I live in Moncton and if the tsunami is that big I'll see you at the Tim's about an hour after you get there... hang a left just after the Pearly Gates. And DON'T forget to put in a good word for me with Pete.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:26 PM

gnu... "The guys at LePreau won't get the chance."

Yeah, I know. Don't make no sense. What I meant to say was... you know... illogical too. Sigh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:43 PM

A tsunami ain't shit against twenty feet of re-con and redundant redundant redundant redundant auto and manual shutdown systems.

Where's the spent fuel stored?

Looks like a large part of the problem at Fukushima is with stuff that's had no fission activity for years. Shutdown systems aren't very relevant there.

North-east North America doesn't have much of a seismic problem, but it is at risk from hurricane damage and storm surges.

On-site waste storage is the predominant way of dealing with it in many countries. We are now seeing the implications.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:51 PM

I give up, Jack. Where is it stored? As it's non-enriched, what is it's propensity to generate heat and how could this be facilitated by, say, a dry environment, given that a lack of heavy water... well, I am a layman so I will have to leave it to the experts to educate me. Feel free Jack. I would appreciate it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: pdq
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:11 PM

Sad fact is that there is nothing any of us can do to help.

Appologies to Tom Lehrer, but the Japanese reactor problems are enough to leave all of us "...feeling a bit like a Christian Scientist with appendicitis".


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:13 PM

sIx... I just heard on CBC NB that people living near LePreau are issued iodide pills fer free. You get any?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:39 PM

gnu .... out of curiosity I went to to Shopper's Drug Mart on Saturday ... one pharmacist didn't have a clue what they were ... another knew what they were but said they didn't carry them.

We're out of range of LePreau to be issued any ... so when when the reinforced concrete containment falls apart due to shoddy workmanship we're SOL

shoddy workmanship e.g. every 2 bit huckster contractor in the vicinity has been ripping off N.B power for $millions$ on the never ending refurbishment ... but then again the rate their going on that it will never be completed.

Anyway ... maybe ... hopefully out of this tragedy over in Japan nuclear power will become a thing of the past and other ways of producing bona fide clean power will become a reality ... after all the Bay of Fundy has the highest tides in the world ... that is power to create power ... and yes, it can be done.

so with that being said I'll stop my babbling gnu ... I'll meet at the Tim Horton's up in Salisbury (right by the Big Stop) when the big tidal wave hits .... :)

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 05:28 PM

sIx... I was just out for a mercy run for mum... a large ice cap as she has been ill and her appetite is squat. Long story but I had to go to a Tim's further than 2kms away (There are three closer... fer fuck sake! Why don't they have fail safe redundant ice cap machines???!!!). When I was on the 4 lane a spit from me I realized that I am located just above sea level. My comment about the tsunami was justified but now I realize it's actually very much justified.

I'd rather meet at The Big Stop. Good grub. I expect they have Big Stops in heaven. Surely the Irvings have that franchise sewn up too? After all, KC was God at one time, no?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 05:40 PM

Q-

Thanks for the update you've harvested from NHK News. That's more information than I've been able to find today.

I do owe apologies to several Forum members that I've jumped all over in my hurry to present my new information or point of view. Sandy certainly had a valid point to make about the difference between a nuclear bomb and a nuclear explosion at a power plant. Both would be horrible events but the nuclear bomb is designed to be more devastating.

I'm not sure where they store the "spent nuclear fuel" in the CANDO reactors after it is removed. But it has to be some place that is safe and secure because it remains highly radioactive (as is all high-level nuclear waste) for thousands of years. The advantage of "dry cask storage" that is being using at the old Maine Yankee site is that it's a passive system that requires no liquid coolant. That's not true of the "spent fuel pools" at the Fukushima reactors and that's another reason why units 4, 5 and 6 are of increasing concern.

I'll see what I can find out about spent fuel storage at the LePreau Nuclear Power Plant.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 05:50 PM

According to the Point Lepreau Nuclear Power Plant official website this is what's done with the spent nuclear fuel:

"Irradiated (spent) fuel

A fuel bundle typically stays in the reactor between six months to 18 months. This irradiated fuel (or spent fuel) is removed from the reactor via automated fueling machines and stored underwater in a spent fuel bay. The fuel is stored in water for two reasons: the water is a good shield from radiation, and the water carries the heat away from the irradiated fuel bundle. After seven years, the radioactivity and heat have decreased enough to allow the irradiated fuel to be transferred to dry storage in concrete canisters above ground. The canisters are on the property of PLGS and are constantly monitored."

Japan would have one less major worry if they had done the same.

There is also an interesting Wikipedia page on the Point Lepreau Nuclear Power Plant which provides an overview of its history, some of which is disquieting.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:01 PM

CNN just announced that a fire has broken out again within Unit 4 at the Fukushima-1 complex. That is not good.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:35 PM

Nuclear plants looming remind me of the day of the triffids.

No, this is not good, but it's been bloody well-contained so far. Here's going with ingenuity and hopes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:49 PM

Before the new fire broke out, Tepco was going to dump water on number 4 by helicopter. Don't know how the fire will affect that.

Wolf Bluster et al. at CNN are going ballistic about the new fire at number 4 building, but it may not be important. BBC says Tepco fighting it.
NHK hasn't updated their English services yet to cover this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 07:02 PM

I prodded a fellow co-worker to look into Potassium Iodine for his new born. Surprisingly, the pediatrician prescribed it. Less surprising - it is in short supply.
West Coast and New Brunswick, Ca are stockpiling. Panic?
I won't get any for myself. But won't turn down any for the babies I know who may need it. A six hour window of opportunity according to some news reports.
In some ways I find this all very funny. We have arrogantly abused every resource on this planet claiming "we need it". Now we reap what we have sown. Kind of like watching abully on a sitcom get his.
inappropriate? Yes. Honest? Yes.
Mary


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 07:04 PM

Onward strode the magnificent 50
manning the pumps for family and city
through nuclear fire, and bosses who lie
Burned every hour til the last of them die


Never give up no matter how hopeless
No matter how painful no matter how long
A full year of burns in only an hour.
None of the 50 would cry out or cower.

They knew of the secrets, the money and danger
They did it for family but what made it stranger
Was the people who bombed them gave them this gift.
Now they are buried

in a deep steaming rift.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 07:33 PM

SINS.... NB is not in panic. BCers are not in panic... just being prudent as the want of Canucks. It's the Boy Sprout attitude.

Charley... "There is also an interesting Wikipedia page on the Point Lepreau Nuclear Power Plant which provides an overview of its history, some of which is disquieting."

Back that up eh? Why should I be alarmed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 07:42 PM

A powerful poem, Donuel.

NPR and CNN this evening was finally trying to puzzle out the threat of the spent fuel pools (which for some reason they're referring to as "ponds"); it's gradually sinking in that if they catch fire, after a loose of coolant, radioactive isotopes will be billowing up in a cloud of smoke and steam. There is no containment structure around or over the spent fuel pool, other than the sheet metal walls of the reactor building, which for Units 1 and 3 were blown away.

There is also discussion of dropping water or sand onto the reactors by helicopter, which might be helpful in the situation of units 1 & 3 were the reactor primary containment is exposed. I'm not sure what would be accomplished if there was still a roof on the reactor building.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 07:59 PM

I would assume the sand drop would not be on rooves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: bobad
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:27 PM

I shouldn't think that there is a great likelihood of much I¹³¹ reaching North America as it is heavier than air and has a half life of eight days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 08:52 PM

the language to sell America Nuclear plutonium breeder atomic reactors was crafted very carefully.

The reactors are "PLANTS"
the toxic waste refridgerated cantainemt bunkers are "PONDS"
The deadly radioactive elements are "Pellets"

The pellets in the plants are in ponds. tra la.

Radioactive gas under pressure is "STEAM"
The power plants produce is "CLEAN"
Oops thers is water in the basement.

To "Educate" the unwashed public today I saw colorful animated graphics of a reactor. The rods where seen end on and were bright yellow happy faces. The bright blue water went round and round.
the water in the plant goes round and round.

In Japan the public relations page for the Fukushima plant had had hello kitty cutesy faces on little cooling towers.

clean safe cheap clean safe cheap the mantra chant is never ending.


Part of shaping public oipinion is to not tell the public when things go wrong for a minimum of 3 days be it 3 mile Island, Chernobyl or Fukushima.

IF they do get caught there is no such thing as an accident.

THERE WAS AN INCIDENT

so minor its not worth talking about
why you silly people panic over nothing is stupid. People who panic are morbid.

Don't you worry your silly little head about this, let the big boys handle it. Now get me a beer and wash the dishes.

NO ONE EVER DIED AT 3 MILE ISLAND
NO ONE EVER DIED AT CHERNOBYL except a few firemen.
NO ONE DID or WILL DIE AT FUKUSHIMA, this is miniscule incident compared to the earthquake.


OK OK so a little bit of radiation was vented...
it has a half life of 7 seconds and poof its gone.

_______________________________________________

I need to say that the lies above the line dishonor all the people who have died in horrible twisted and slow ways because of nuclear power reactors breaking down.

FOX NEWS today glorified the safety of nuclear power and deamonize all the ignorant people who enjoy spreading panic.

IT IS NOT SPREADING PANIC WHEN WE ARE CONTENDING WITH POISONS THAT HAVE A LONG HALF LIFE.

THINGS LIKE URANIUM AND PLUTONIUM

GO AHEAD AND GOOGLE THEIR HALF LIVES AND LEARN FOR YOURSELF.


PS
the name they gave to a mixture of uranium and plutonium to fuel the reactor is MOX. they even have a nickname of the radioactive lava that is the rsult of a meltdown, its real cute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:07 PM

Doctors and pharmacists in Alberta and British Columbia are telling everyone that potassium iodide is absolutely not needed. The radioactive iodine in any cloud drifting this way would be dispersed long before it reaches this area (or any of Canada).

Alberta has no reactors, nor does the provincial government have any interest in them at this time. Out of curiosity, I looked at the sources of our electricity- 44% coal, 41% natural gas (increasing), 7% hydro, 6% wind. Little liklihood of solar here- dark winters.
British Columbia is 86% hydro, 9% biomass, 6% natural gas.
Neighboring Washington is 84% hydro, 9% wind and 4% nuclear (one plant).


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:09 PM

Q, is there still a push to have one built near Peace River?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:21 PM

Doneul-

I haven't been watching Fox News. I can't bear to watch them do their work.

Oh, the other structural update is the roof was now reported caved in at Unit 4.

But I was favorably impressed with what Elliot Spitzer was doing this evening on his CNN hour. Among his guests was a whistle-blower nuclear engineer who heading up a study group that concluded the Mark-1 reactor (the type at Futushima) could not safely deal with a lose of coolant from a pipe break. He was not satisfied with the response from GE and eventually quit. His concerns were proven true in this case, not because of a coolant pipe break but because the back-up generators which powered the pumps were disabled by the tsunami, which produced a similar type of problem.

I also learned a bit more about the spent fuel pool design of the Mark-1. The reason the pool is located above the primary containment is for convenience in moving the spent fuel assemblies out of the reactor to the pool. After the spent fuel is cooled for a year or so, it would then be shifted to a larger common spent fuel pool that would service all six reactors at the Fukushima complex.

Because reactors 4, 5, and 6 were shutdown prior to the earthquake for maintenance, their fuel was removed to the adjacent pools and was quite fresh and hot. That is part of the problem, especially if there is a loss of coolant for the pools from a pool container rupture or from a breakdown in coolant resupply.

I still wonder what the status is of the spent fuel pools in units 1, 2 and 3, after the various hydrogen explosions. And I've posed that question to the Union of Concerned Scientists on their website.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:34 PM

FOX will give a soap box to the disaster deniers but they have had good people others wont broadcast.

There is adear old geologist friend who has for years predicted earthqwuakes by animal behavior and full moons.

SOme of the animal behavior are fish and whale beachings, some are lost dog and cat epidemics, some are birds falling from the sky or migrating opposite directions.
He believes that before an earthquake magnetic fields get twisted.
He is correct that the full moon this month between 15-23 is in fact going to be physically closer to the earth than it will be again unitl 2016.   He really did predict the san Fran world series earthquake. and about 6 others.

HE is, I swear to God, predicting an earthquake for the US northwest coast and British Columbia this month since the animals suggest it and the closest full moon ever coincides with high tides and recent quakes elsewhere on the ring of fire.

Not all FOX guests are uninteresting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:40 PM

gnu - What I meant was, I feel a lot safer being 2 hours northwest of the Pickering nuclear facility than if I was living, say, 5 miles away from it...and on the leeward side of the prevailing winds which pass over it (they usually come from the west).


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Subject: The heroic fifty have just bugged out
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:43 PM

BUlletine NHK just announced that the last fifty workers are now gone or have left the plant








Onward strode the magnificent 50
manning the pumps for family and city
through nuclear fire, and bosses who lie
Burned every hour til the last of them die


Never give up no matter how hopeless
No matter how painful no matter how long
A full year of burns in only an hour.
None of the 50 would cry out or cower.

They knew of the secrets, the money and danger
They did it for family but what made it stranger
Was the people who bombed them gave them this gift.
So fucx this! were gettin out of this shit


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:49 PM

No one is left to run the store.

The Govrnment is telling people that what will happen will only amount to getting an X ray...who is buying this shit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:02 PM

Has the containment vessel been ruptured?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:02 PM

No one is there to know one way or another.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:03 PM

It seems clear from the TESCO spokesman that the reason the remaining 50 workers were withdrawn was because of rapidly increasing levels of radiation. Unit 2 is now smoking as well. This nuclear accident is now approaching the Chernobyl level.

The only good news is that prevailing winds are still heading out to sea and are expected to do so for the next few days.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:49 PM

"The only good news is that prevailing winds are still heading out to sea and are expected to do so for the next few days."

Which means it's on its way here. :(


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: J-boy
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:52 AM

"Oh God, Oh God, We're all gonna die?"- Hoban "Wash" Washburne


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:01 AM

What a surprise. I never thought that I would die. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 05:51 AM

Quake. Tsunami. Mudslides. Meltdown.

Now even the food and water that can be distributed may become contaminated.

Horrifying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:08 AM

Just read on Rogers Yahoo News... All those remaining were pulled out for almost an hour on Wednesday because radiation levels were too high, but they were later allowed to return.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:40 AM

Imagine your workplace looking like this...

Daily Telegraph picture: inside the damaged plant


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:52 AM

Gnu-

It's not certain from the reports I've read and heard that the radiation levels have dropped enough to permit the workers to function back on the Fukushima site. There is a plan to send them back, announced late last night, but everyone knows that it is pointless to send them in if they'll die from radiation exposure within an hour or less.

The Union of Concerned Scientists have an excellent discussion and graphic posted this morning of the spent fuel pool issues at the Fukushima complex: click here for report!

In summary, as I feared, the spent fuel pools contain more fuel rods than existed within any of the reactors on site such as 1, 2, and 3. And if the coolant levels in their pools continue to go down, their zirconium cladding will ignite and we will have a radioactive fuel fire with no protecting containment. That would seem to be the evolving situation in units 4, 5, and 6. No one has mentioned what has happened within the spent fuel pools of reactors 1, 2 and 3; it's possible that the spent fuel temporarily stored there had been removed to the centralized spent fuel pool on site prior to the earthquake and tsunami.

J-Boy and Eddie-

I'm not sure I understand your posts above. Is this some attempt at gallows humor?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:59 AM

gnu ... it is beyond horrifying.

Geeezuz .... I can't even imagine what these people are going through.

Nature can certainly deliver a hard whallop to humans ... but this meltdown goat f**k is like a man made coup degrace (without any mercy).

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:08 AM

Jack-

That photo certainly looks awful. I've just noticed the artwork on what remains of the outside of the reactor building, the lovingly painted clouds on a blue background...

But it's what we can't see, the radiation, that's truly terrifying and the uncertainty of what will happen next.

(Note to Mudcat moderators: feel free to delete the following sentence)

There has to be a special hell for those who designed this nuclear power plant complex and argued that it would never endanger the environment or the public.

I forget where this old slogan came from:

"The risks are all acceptable! Acceptable to who?"

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 09:08 AM

I've asked the Union of Concerned Scientists why they think the staff at the neighboring Fukushima 2 plant were evidently successful in achieving "cold shut-down" of their four operating reactors after the earthquake and tsunami, while experiencing a similar loss of energy supply to the back-up cooling pumps. See Wikipedia Fukushima Nuclear Plant 2 for reference.

Fukushima 1 appears to have similar reactor models (Mark 1) but 6 units compared with 4 units at Fukushima 2. They are in close geographic proximity. Were the effects of the earthquake and tsunami markedly different? Or was it what the operating staff did, or didn't do, with what resources they had available? This question belongs in "lessons to be learned."

I need to correct one of my statements posted above relating to the Three Mile Island accident in 1979. It took over 5 years, not 1 year as I remembered, before scientists were able to examine the bottom of the reactor vessel and confirm that there was a partial meltdown of the fuel rods (over 50%) in the containment vessel, and that the "melt" had eaten through the vessel walls. The containment dome fortunately functioned as designed. By that time media attention had shifted to other issues and the public by and large is unaware that there was a meltdown at Three Mile Island.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 09:11 AM

Kyodo news agency: latest update of known status of Fukushima reactors


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 10:10 AM

MSNBC says that 180 workers have been brought into the plant. And the maximum allowable dosage of radiation for a worker has been increased to allow some to stay.
If I were in Japan and pregnant I would be sick with fear. If I were the parent of a small child there, I would be frantic. I miss the humor in all this too, Charley.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 10:26 AM

Thanks, Peter, for posting that link above to the Kyodo News Agency which largely confirms what I have said about what is happening at both Fukushima 1 and Fukushima 2 (two separate but neighboring nuclear power complexes).

It makes more sense to have a workforce of 180 with shifts of 50 or so, than a skeleton crew of 50 trying to do everything. Of course they are endangered but hopefully their efforts will help save others.

Fears about radiation reaching the United States at levels dangerous to human health are overblown, in my opinion. But as experts have pointed out, it's not just a function of distance from the crippled reactors that is important.

The health risk for the Japanese public is much higher, and pretty much tied to the whim of the winds. The prevailing winds for the next day or two are expected to blow out to sea which is good news in a bad situation. But the process of meltdown at the Fukushima 1 complex is most likely going to continue for a week or longer. And it will be weeks before clean-up of radioactive deposits can be safely attempted. If there are more explosions and fires, the health risk will become much more dire and the clean-up will become much more complex.

No useful further info from CNN or MSNBC.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 11:01 AM

The NRC has become a joke. A 9.0 (largest in history).

Diablo and San Onofre next? (California alert)

Nuclear disarmament starts with shutting down the nukes.

Who wants to argue now about global warming (climate change?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 11:25 AM

The point was made last night that storing of spent fuel rods inside the plant, in water pools, would not be allowed today, and in the newer plants is NOT done. Fukushima is that old.
   The USA has, I believe, 23 reactors of the basic design of Fukushima.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 11:31 AM

Stringsinger-

Agreed.

I finally was able to view a clear image of Unit-4 of the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant-1 and the reactor building no longer has a roof or side paneling. I'm not sure if that resulted from the fires or an explosion or both. The concern has to be what is happening with its spent fuel pool, is there any coolant left, can it be resupplied at this point or is it too late?

Unit's 5 and 6 seem to be in better shape. There has been some increase in temperature in their spent fuel pools but not a dangerous increase.

If I had friends or family in Japan at this point, I would urge them if possible to leave before the prevailing winds shift inland. That may seem alarmist to some on this forum but I and people who know a whole lot more than I about nuclear power that I respect are alarmed.

This is an unfolding situation which is difficult to keep one step ahead of, which strikes me as a awkward way to put it but it's the best I can do this morning. Anyone got a more positive spin?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 11:57 AM

No Charley.
And the long term effect on the world economy worries me. Oil prices, cars (you have to know that there will be those who will not buy a "contaminated" car from Japan even if it is manufactured in Idaho). Japan's ability to pay for imports will cause problems. Their incoming tourist dollars will be non-existant. At the same time, construction companies will thrive assuming there is money to build.
Fishing boats in Japan and on the west coast have been destroyed. Enough to affect the size of the catch and the price of seafood?
So many bits and pieces to look at.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 12:25 PM

The Reactor building artwork that, is now blown up, was nice but I interpreted it as 2 giant ocean waves.

Everything is proceeding as it should under the current set of circumstances. The meltdowns are an expected outcome from the procedures and factors thus far encountered. Explosions are really a good thing and have merely allowed too much pressure to be released. All radiation is but an aspect of nature like a particular color in the rainbow. At cooling ponds in n plants there is a very beautiful blue called Chernikov radiation.
Soap and water will remove radiation from your body and clothes can be discarded by burning. Being exposed to radiation is nothing more than getting a partial X ray you did not even know about.
So far we are all very pleased that a catastrophe has been averted and that this incident is only a bit more of an excursion than 3 mile Island. Any release of radiation in clouds is blowing out to sea where it will eventually drift into the water outside our fisheries so our fish should be just fine. IF there is one very important thing for people to do it would be to trust us. Obey the private company TEPCO instructions and do not listen to panicy Debbie Downers who only want to stir up trouble.
Have a nice day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:02 PM

Thanks for that update Donuel.

and keeping up on the positive side and most importantly at the Tokyo Stock Market the shares are now on an upswing!

Things are looking so bright I got to wear shades

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:08 PM

The really wonderful news is that Fukushima is nothing like Chernobyl. You see Chernobyl blew up becasue of human error.
It did not blow up like a hydrogen bomb, it did not even blow up like an atomic bomb with incinerating heat and shock wave.
It blew up like a normal Neutron bomb. A neorton bomb is not even that loud. In fact it leaves buildings cars and airplanes intact. A neutron bomb will leave most of the flora a fauna alive to flourish.
It is however not recommended for people.

The only real danger from Fukushima are the people who spread panic and rumor. Deadly rumors and panic will result in tradgedies such as damaging the supply of electronic parts which you use in your I phones, i pads and other devices. Trash talk about radiation could even hurt the production of Toyota, Lexus, Honda and Nissan. Do you want that? What if you need a part one day?

Smart people have everything under control. Human error is not possible in an advanced technilogical and polite proud society like Japan. So no more panic talk becasue it will only hurt products you use. In factdoing the opposite of traxh talking the cleansafe nuclear industry can be very profitable. Lobbyists in DC can make a quarter million dollars a year talking new Cngressmen into accepting contribution to further Nuclear Licensing programs and liniting harful regulations.

One can even make good money by saying nice things about nuclear energy while attacking the frightened ignorant cowards who are yelling about ficticious dangers of nuclear energy . By posting pro nuclear comments on 400 internet sites a day, one can make a good piece of change. Happytalk.com is more than happy to screen potential friends.

So instead of wasting valuable time on this morbid thread lets all do something fun; ie Joke thread,


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM

did I forget to post a sarcasm alert?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM

There are reports today that the nuclear lobby in Washington, DC, has received more funds to support efforts in Congress to subsidize the insurance for the "Next Generation of Nuclear Power Pants." I do so want one for my backyard.

Meanwhile you can pick up a slightly used GE Mark 1 reactor on e-Bay for a starting bid of only $24 (another lame attempt at a joke).

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:35 PM

Japan's Self-Defense Forces have postponed a mission to dump water by helicopter on the No.3 reactor at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, because radiation above the facility has climbed too high for such work.

NHK


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM

Now... you GOTTA see NHK... the model they have in the studio for illustrating what is going on is "anatomically correct". Seriously, #3 looks like #3, mangled steel frame and all... #4 shows the partial damage right down to deformed and blackened steel cladding. It's SURREAL. (Or is that just me?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:42 PM

And let us believe and blindly follow the words of our political and corporate leaders, because our well being and safety is foremost in their interest.

"But to create more of these clean energy jobs, we need more production, more efficiency, more incentives. That means building a new generation of safe, clean nuclear power plants in this country. It means making tough decisions about opening new offshore areas for oil and gas development. "

... excerpt from Obama's State of the Union Address 01/2010

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM

New NHK stream now available for those who can connect directly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:46 PM

Here is another link to NHK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 02:12 PM

Question asked above about possible nuclear plant for Peace River area, Alberta. The premier has stated that the plant is not in the current plans.
Alberta has trememdous natural gas and oil sands reserves, as well as coal. These are bringing in the money, and little is being done regarding other energy sources.
Natural gas is being increasingle used in place of coal; thus cleaner energy but still dependance on fossil fuels.

(Because of the hydrocarbon reserves and sales, Alberta did not experience the severe downturn in the U. S.; temporarily housing prices were down 10% but have recovered, and investors saw their stocks go down, but now they, too, are back up. The market value of my home, built 50 years ago, has gone from the construction cost of $30,000 to $700,000. Median house cost in Calgary is over $450,000.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 02:24 PM

gnu-

The link above works fine. The NHK model certainly provides a chilling overview of reactor units 1, 2,, 3, and 4 at the Fukushima 1 complex. The still images, however, are even more surreal.

Oh, and I see in my haste to make my last post I have made a crucial typo:

"Next Generation of Nuclear Power Pants."

That should read:

"Next Generation of Nuclear Power PLants."

Well, I need to leave for Portland now to practice arcane music, sea shanties and forebitters of all things.

Maybe they'll be some good news when I get back, or no news. I'd settle for that.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 02:26 PM

Thanks, Q. The plant was being considered when I left Hinton, but that was the last I heard of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 02:42 PM

Russian and Chinese non-essential staff leaving Tokyo; BMW non-Japanese staff leaving and others being air-lifted south.
This is not solely from fear of radiation, but fear of pressure on food, materials and service supplies.

It is obvious that, even if the Fukushima plants are stabilized, the Japanese economy could be depressed for an extended period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 02:55 PM

Charley... some good news for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 02:57 PM

The USA only has 23 Fukushima style plants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:06 PM

UN is calling an emergency meeting, as they probably should have done sooner. It sends a message that you can bamboozle your own people but not the world. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 03:12 PM

NEW DESIGNS ARE MUCH BETTER THAN THE OLD mARK 4

By outlawing and eliminating human error they can become foolproof.

We should ask Watson if he wil take the job.

Watson will you run our nuclear plants to red ourselves from human error?

Watson "Yes neutralizing people is a very good idea. I am Kosher with that"


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:01 PM

Someone just came up with the idea of running a new power line to the crippled Fukshima plant?
It just might work!!



Do you think the disaster needs a new thread?

Its not looming anymore IT IS HERE to stay.

a link between threads could be added by a concerned moderator.





What should the title of the new thread be????????????




Japan Nuclear disaster or catastrophe?

The Nuclear disaster has arrived

FukU hazard from hell

A taste of Plutonium

China sand reaches CA, Y not PU?

Japan meltdown info center


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 04:19 PM

What aid is Japan seeking (qm)

What radioactive elements are presently escaping (qm)



We pay taxes, much of which went and go to the industrial-military complex (I'm aware of what Ike said.) What are our governments saying (qm)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM

MSNBC currently has an article assessing the odds of a nuclear power disaster due to earthquakes in the US, at US Nuke Plants Ranked by Quake Risk

The article cites "authoritative" sources (i.e. confident liars?) but does appear to give what the nuclear power industry and regulators believe is "reasonable."

The most disturbing aspect of the report is that the odds have been kicked up, in some cases rather spectacularly, by a reassessment of the likelihood of quakes in US areas where they were considered "not at all likely" when the plants were built.

The article is rather long, due to inclusion of the list of all nuclear generating plants in the US, with "current estimates" for each.

A rather long list of references is included at the end, each of which is either rather long or a typical "governmentese" tangle of intertwining links.

(Failure probabilies required - per reactor - appear to be higher than FAA regulations permit - per airplane - for commercial aircraft, but of course there aren't quite 105 reactors flying over our heads daily. Make your own judgement on whether they're appropriate - in either case.)

The most interesting link (IMO) is to A scientific paper describing the New Madrid earthquake, and what can be learned by melding modern science with writings from long ago.

The New Madrid quakes (they were multiple) have been the subject of much discussion, and maybe even more "folk-myth," and the article (~46 pp) is a pretty good historical examination. (I linked direct to the PDF version that you can read, save or print. Much easier to read than clicking through the pages one-at-a-time in the html version linked in the article, but you get the PDF if you click "Print" at their link.)

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 05:52 PM

Amano (IAEA, UN) chair says rods at reactors 4, 5, and 6 exposed.

Charlie, what are likely escapees from the sites?
I believe this was stated somewhere far above, but I can't remember who posted or when.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 06:04 PM

Saw an item on the news that Japan is responsible for 40% of lithium type batteries. Time to stock up?

Many manufacturers are worried about electronic etc. parts supplies because many come from Japan, and the supply chain may be interrupted.

My hearing aid battery packs are marked made in USA, but this is the final product with casing. ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:14 PM

999... press shift and then ctrl and hold the keys down for several seconds. That should clear up your ? problems. Happens to me all the time. I get an upper case e with l'accent ague (spg?).


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: pdq
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:25 PM

There are a couple of technical experts on ths thread, perhaps someone could answer the following question...

Would the problems have been averted if electrical power was available to complete the shutdown process?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:30 PM

I am no expert but I would think that was the main problem from the beginning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: pdq
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:34 PM

If that is the case, why didn't the government regulators make them build a small conventional power plant "on site" for just such an emergency?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:35 PM

Lies, damn lies and deadly lies...

1 the claim that a nuke plant can not explode is a technical lie.
It can explode but in the way a neutron bomb explodes, like a fizzle with such extreme radiation that mostly animals are killed.

2 The radiation can not cross the ocean.
This is a whopper of a lie. You have heard about how the sands of the Sahara desert blows yellow sand across the Atlantic and deposits it in the Carribean Islands and Florida. You have heard about how the deserts above Beijing China blow all the way to California.

Now if sand and talc like fine sand can cross oceans, why cant really hot atoms that rise in the air cross an ocean. All sorts of radioactive particles can attach to anything else in the air and amke the journey. The concentration will be very low but all you need are an atom or two stuck in your lungs or gut to start a disease event. The higher particles go in the atmosphere the longer they stay aloft. Soemtimes they can circle the earth many times before settling to the ocean or land.

3 The big lie about covering up a total meltdown is jaberwockey. Once the moten tons of fuel burn down to the ground there is no way to contain all the steam explosions it will produce as it continues to burrow deeper.

4 For all the reasons above the claim there is no hazard or concern to the United States is a bald faced lie.


5 NRC spokespeople say they do not know what MOX is in the Japan reactor. It is 5% Plutonium. Now how would I know that and he doesn't? He is lieing . You see they do not like to use words people have bad notions about. Words like Plutonium and death.

6 The incentive to lie is because the nuclear industry have4 Trillion dollars on the betting line. They will certainly cheat for that kind of money and believe me they are expert cheaters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:40 PM

pdq, each reactor had its own diesel electric generator. They can be seen from the ocean as being right in front and below each reactor building. There is a cylindrical fuel tank and a boxey generator.
They were all chocked by seawater after the earthquake. Having the back up generators at sea level was a design flaw. Perhaps the most fatal flaw respondsible for every problem thereafter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 07:42 PM

John There you are,
I was hoping Leonard Nimoy might go into the reactor and save the many at the cost of the few.

Why do we always sacrifice the many for the profit of the few?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:03 PM

Donuel... "Having the back up generators at sea level was a design flaw."

No shit. What engineer would place the backup genie on the ground? Why on God's green earth would it not be on the top floor with a sepatate feed(s) and a backup to that at a lower level? Spend a million but save a dime... asshole engineers.

Having said that, I always have to say... the politicians and their pencil pushing accountants and auditors are the ones who tell the engineers: "That's too much. You have to reduce the costs." Usually at any cost. And sometimes everyone pays the costs... New Orleans... Japan... the World.

I have been in those meetings. I was told by a VP that the P only had a five year contract so he didn't give a shit that my design was for a fourty year life... hell, we'll all be retired or dead in fourty years!!!... bring the project in at half the price or get out.

In case anyone cares, I refused to change my design, told the VP he could change it, sign it, date it and shove it up his ass. The P kept me on staff after the VP was axed. But, that is not always what happens when engineers have a family to feed. I was able to stand up and say no... most do not have that option. new Orleans was a case in point... we may never know about this current catastrophe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: olddude
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:15 PM

I fear we are watching the end of japan. All 6 reactors going meltdown. There would be no place in Japan or surrounding that people could stay alive. West Coast of the US and more ... you bet will be impacted as will a lot of other countries. CNN reported we have 23 of the things with the exact same design as Japan here in the US ... they were grandfathered in after they put tighter building codes on new ones ... boy that makes me feel good .. NOT


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:18 PM

This unthinable collosal event was made possible by an industry and engineers in 1959 who were obviously not thinking...except for the bottom line.

Construction began in 1960. Completeion was in early 1970
The life span of the reactor was to end in 2000.

The USA has 23 such Mark 4 reactors however not all of them had a cooling pnd bult as an extension of the cement surrounding the steel vessel holding the core.



Now is the time to read GODZILLA It is about a nuclear accident where seawater is exposed to radiation and a mutation occurs in a speck of life offshore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: pdq
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:29 PM

New Orleans was mentioned...just for the record, the levee that failed was rebuilt in about 1965, but using USGS maps that were generated in about 1928. The actual soil level was 2-3 feet lower than they thought due to subsidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 08:50 PM

I heard something cute about n plants today

IF the frequent spikes in radiation(above established limits which are typical of Nuclear power plants) caused acne,
there would not be any nuclear power plants.
Unfortunetly the damage is silent and slow.

Childhood leukemia is typically 30 higher within 10 miles of any given Nuclear power plant.

Still there is no denying a business like nuke plants in which the government holds the bag, private owners play with billions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 09:08 PM

Watched helicopters dump seawater on no. 3 (about 5pm mountain time) and no. 4.
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 09:56 PM

The question about worst case scenario seems to be dodged evertime it is asked.

So lets suppose every bit of nuclear fuel from all six reactors and cooling ponds all melted down and escaped into the air.

Assuming the Japanese numbers are correct; reactor 1 has 90 tons and in its pnd it has 50 more. Respectively #2 has 90+100 #3 has90+90 #4 has 70+130 #5 has 90+160 #6 has 130+150...there is a commuity colling pond a quarter mile away.


CHERNOBYL HAD 180 TONS OF NUCLEAR FUEL THAT BURNED AND EXPLODED.

Chenobyl spread radiation as far as Scotland and a bit farther to the north east


If Fukashima spread its radioactive clouds as far as Chernobyl it would hit


drumroll;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; Alaska!


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 10:32 PM

Donuel-

I'm not happy to see those figures for the cooling pools of reactors 1, 2, and 3 at Fukishima complex 1. I was hoping they were empty given the damage already incurred there by the hydrogen explosions. Where id you find those figures?

Back home but I wish I was still playing music with my bandmates.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 10:57 PM

How many people did Chernobyl kill?
Depends upon who you ask

56 direct deats
4000 canecr deaths

But Russian Academy of sciences says 200,000 Chernobyl linked cancer deaths

Ukrain science foundation says 500,000 cancer deaths.


GOOD NEWS 11 water cannon trucks are on they're way.
Helicopters make 4 water dumps.




After resaerch into what a meltdown into the ground near the shore of the ocean would be like, I've come up empty.

In fact the China Syndrome idea does not seem to have any scientific substantiation. I've heard that a hole would develop and any water that the hot fuel would encounter would turn into a deadly geyser.

Perhaps no one has mathmatically made a model of what a core breach meltdown into the soil and rock strata would be like. Perhaps there are too many variables.


I am now going to look into how the Japanese ocean current could concievably carry radioactive debris or particals around the Pacific. Don't they say that Washington State and Oregon coastlines are warmed by the Japanese current?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 11:06 PM

Animated path of Japanese Radiation click play


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 11:10 PM

In summary at this hour there is nothing even close to a worst case scenario but the rumor among scientists is that an event equal to Chernobyl is a fair possiblity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:31 AM

"How many people did Chernobyl kill?"
Wheile the answer is unclear it becomes subjective, but one is one too many! How many died of cancer or still will? How many would have died of cancer anyway? The answer is blown in the wind!
I seem to have engaged into an argument earlier that was not my intention and looking back I wonder if it was one of definition?
When speaking about an atomic explosion my definition was an uncontrolled fission of atomic particles (IE A-Bomb). I did not mean to include in that definition a hydrogen or other chemical explosion scattering atomic waste particles. As subjective as that might be perhaps my definition differs from that of others and may cause some misunderstanding. Likewise I believed Donuel to be referring to a fission explosion when I cited the Chicken Little syndrome. As bad and dire as the situation was and still is my intent was to state that a fission explosion was in theory not possible.
                                     Sandy


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:12 AM

Update from IAEA


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:52 AM

Peter... page not found.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:58 AM

I am now going to look into how the Japanese ocean current could concievably carry radioactive debris or particals around the Pacific. Don't they say that Washington State and Oregon coastlines are warmed by the Japanese current?

The Northern Pacific surface currents form a clockwise loop which is mostly closed. Deep-water currents form a clockwise loop round the entire Pacific, but it would take decades for contamination to get that far down. Bye-bye to the Northern Pacific tuna and salmon fishery, at least.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 07:58 AM

Conditions at the Fukushima 1 Nuclear Complex continue to deteriorate this morning. There is more damage to the reactor buildings and radiation levels are so high that helicopters are now being used to pour water on the reactors and spent fuel pools in a last ditch attempt to cool them. The only promising news is that a new electrical cable may be connected to the stricken plant, which might reactivate the plant's coolant pumps, assuming they have not been damaged in what has happened at the site so far.

I would urge anyone who is anywhere near this plant to leave if they possibly can before the winds shift. The "50-mile zone" now identified by the US Government may not be an adequate evacuation zone for this unfolding accident.

The fact that there are 6 nuclear reactors at the Fukushima 1 nuclear complex has compounded the problem of dealing with this unfolding disaster, not to mention the reporting of it. Chalk that one up in the column under "design failure" lessons to be learned. The plant workers in heavy containment suits have had to race up and down trying to cool damaged reactor units and spent fuel pools, one after another or even simultaneously. Monitoring equipment for gas pressure, liquid levels, and radiation have been reported broken down.

There is renewed concern now about increasing temperatures in the spent fuel pools of units 5 and 6; these units were shut down for routine maintenance before the earthquake and tsunami but their spent fuel pools were filled with highly radioactive fuel rods which need to be kept underwater in order to keep them from igniting (which evidently is happening in Unit 4).

Our local newspapers still have conservative commentators such as Cal Thomas sporting such "helpful" headlines as "Panic over N-Plants harmful in itself." I would so like to see Cal lowered by helicopter onto the hell on earth that Fukushima 1 is now becoming.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:04 AM

'Peter... page not found. '

It comes up for me now although it's slow to load.

In case I copied the link wrong earlier IAEA update


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 09:44 AM

This is my long response to conservative columnist Cal Thomas. Feel free to ignore it. I doubt if the newspaper will print it in full:

This morning's column (Portland Press Herald) by Cal Thomas was headlined "Panic over N-plants harmful in itself" and his major message was that as the nuclear crisis at the Fukushima 1 nuclear complex in Japan continues to unfold "politicians tend to overreact to such things and stoke public fear." I'm not surprised by this time of what Mr. Thomas thinks of various issues and by his unwavering support for nuclear power in particular, however much I disagree with his conclusions. But it's the reasoning of Mr. Thomas I would like to address, given that his sources are selected from the World Nuclear Association, a powerful international lobby group for nuclear power.

The short term impact of the Chrenobyl nuclear meltdown and fire of 1986 was indeed the direct deaths of 30 or so workers and emergency responders within a few weeks of that disaster. What Mr. Thomas has ignored are later official reports from which I quote:

"In the aftermath of the accident, 237 people suffered from acute radiation sickness, of whom 31 died within the first three months. Most of these were fire and rescue workers trying to bring the accident under control, who were not fully aware of how dangerous exposure to the radiation in the smoke was. Whereas, the World Health Organization's report 2006 Report of the Chernobyl Forum Expert Group from the 237 emergency workers who were diagnosed with ARS, ARS was identified as the cause of death for 28 of these people within the first few months after the disaster. There were no further deaths identified, in the general population affected by the disaster, as being caused by ARS. Of the 72,000 Russian Emergency Workers being studied, 216 non-cancer deaths are attributed to the disaster, between 1991 and 1998."

Given that the latency period from excess exposure to radiation for some cancers is 10 years or more, it should not be surprising that many more cases have now been documented, far in excess of what would have been expected if the accident had not occurred. The most chilling summary, and it's my turn to be "selective," is this research:

"A 2009 English translation of an earlier 2007 Russian language publication titled "Chernobyl" presented an analysis of scientific literature and concluded that medical records between 1986, the year of the accident, and 2004 reflect 985,000 deaths as a result of the radioactivity released. The authors suggested that most of the deaths were in Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, but others were spread through the many other countries the radiation from Chernobyl struck. The literature analysis draws on over 1,000 published titles and over 5,000 internet and printed publications discussing the consequences of the Chernobyl disaster. The authors contend that those publications and papers were written by leading Eastern European authorities and have largely been downplayed or ignored by the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) and UNSCEAR (United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation)."

My own conclusions about the Fukushima 1 nuclear plant accident is that the design was seriously flawed in that the earthquake and tsunami exceeded by far its specifications, conditions for dealing with the unfolding accident were compounded by having six reactors at this site (another design flaw), and the heroic plant workers have in fact made several major errors in judgment ("worker error") as they desperately tried to stabilize the reactors and their spent fuel storage pools.

There are 23 nuclear plants in the United States with reactors similar in design to those at the Fukushima 1 nuclear complex, the nearest one to Maine being Vermont Yankee which the Nuclear Regulatory Commission has just approved for an extension of its license after 40 years of troubled operation; there's still a chance that the Legislature in Vermont will veto this license extension. There is reason for public alarm.

Charles Ipcar worked with the Maine Nuclear Referendum Committee from 1982 to 1996.

Cordially,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 10:44 AM

How much water do they need?

Where is the plant in relation to large amounts of water?


Can anyone answer these questions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:17 AM

They need a few thousand tons to fill up the tanks.

They're right next to the sea with no working pumps.

If they had electric power they might be able to do more.

When Auckland central business district had a massive power failure in 1998, they got things working by using the generators on a warship from the naval base across the harbour.

The US has a huge warship nearby that must have a larger generating capacity than that NZ destroyer, but they're too scared to go inshore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:20 AM

Thanks, Jack. One last question if I may. How high above sea level are the reactors?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:39 AM

I searched (quickly) the coastline on GE but didn't locate the plant... maybe someone who knows where it is or a city/town nearby could find it and approximate an elevation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: olddude
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:43 AM

Can diesel electric generators be brought in and connected to the grid to supply powers. No one has mentioned that. I know their diesel generators were clobbered by the sea but every armed forces has many of these portable generators that put out lots of power. I have been waiting to hear on TV but no one talks about that


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:47 AM

Reason I'm asking is the following.

If (engines) fire trucks were able to stay up with the need, well, ya don't necessarily need the truck other than for the pump to get the wet stuff on the red stuff.

If the friction loss is surmountable, maybe with the use of portable pumps they can achieve the same end. There are friction loss formulas that work quite well with fire hose, and of course other hoses. If people have tunnel vision and are seeing the only solution as using a big mother of a pump instead of lots of little ones, then maybe it's an option worth assessing.

Smaller pumps in tandem would do the same job. Portable pumps are just that: they can be carted by two adults. In fact, all the required apparatus is man/woman portable. Honda makes 'em. Also, I'd suggest input from rural firefighters because water is often a problem, so they learn to suck water out of sloughs, rivers, lakes, etc. Those guys know about this kinda stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 11:57 AM

Rationale:

Helicopters can fly there and there has got to be some place very close by to land. Bring in gas fired pumps and the fuel/lubricants to maintain them. This type of pumping is a bugger, because the slightest loss of prime can cause problems. However, once prime is established, those little suckers are like the energizer bunny!

The math on it is easily figurable-out-able by the fire service. Give 'em a calculator and three minutes--although tise situation may require ten minutes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:16 PM

The plant is only just above sea level, but the spent fuel tanks (the part that most needs water at the moment) are high in each building, maybe 100 feet up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM

I think it's do-able. But I'm relying on memory and I'm the guy who lost the whole year of 1967.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:25 PM

Sorry. Thank you, Jack.

So how can we pass the idea to someone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:31 PM

Also, if the salt will be bad for the normal pumps, there are submersible pumps that work in sea water. And what's the chances of having a submarine or two provide electricity. They would be submerged, thus easing up on the radiation threat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: pdq
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM

As lame as it sounds, they could have firefighting tug boats spraying the buildings from just off the shore.

We don't expect this type of incompetence from Germany, England, the US or Japan, but there it is for all to see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 12:48 PM

Helluvan idea, pdq. Who can we tell this stuff to?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:08 PM

"The US has a huge warship nearby that must have a larger generating capacity than that NZ destroyer, but they're too scared to go inshore" Jack Campin

And you know that - how?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:12 PM

Send this thread to the Japanese Embassy, Bruce...No kidding..email them and let them see it.

You guys have great brains, great ideas....Some of you know one helluva lot about these sorts of situations, you need to tell someone...

Consulate General of Japan - Montreal

600, rue de la Gauchetière O
Montreal, QC H3B 4L8, Canada
(514) 866-3429


Failing that, your Firefighters, Bruce....can they contact firefighters in Tokyo in some way?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:13 PM

Ebbie... they were in fairly close but backed off to 25 miles. That doesn't mean they are scared, just smart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:17 PM

How would you solve Fukushima?

Live blog in Guardian newspaper taking suggestions fro mreaders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:18 PM

Fire Department Network News - contact details on page..



At the bottom of this page is an email link to these guys...

The Tokyo Fire Department


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:22 PM

I pass on ideas like these to the Union of Concerned Scientists. They have a comment section if you're able to navigate their website and fill out their form before posting: click here for link

I generally feel that they are level-headed and they have years of experience evaluating situations at nuclear plants.

Evidently the levels of radiation now are too high for the on-site workers to achieve anything before dying. That sounds like a blunt and callous statement but that's what the situation has evolved to.

I'm not sure what the workers did at the similarly affected Fukushima 2 nuclear complex seven miles to the North but all reports indicate that they've achieved "cold shut-down." They were also knocked off-line by the earthquake and most of their generators were disabled by the tsunami. There are four reactors at that complex. There were no hydrogen explosions but for a while the core temperatures were elevating in 3 of the 4 units.

There was no official reassuring news from the Fukushima 1 nuclear complex this noon. The helicopter drops of tons of water, as some had predicted, appear to have been ineffectual.

The best hope remains restoring power with a new electrical cable, but I've found no updates there.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:24 PM

I was wondering about fire tugs..again I don't know how far away the sea is..could be a couple of miles? I guess I could googleearth.

That is why I keep saying we need photos and videos like on youtube that can be slowed down, stopped, blown up etc. Watching on CNN is not enough. There are people all over the world with expertise. I thought days ago about helicopters dumping water but thought what do I know...

Some things I don't get.. they say there is no water but there is heavy snowfall...and lots of debris to burn..which might be soaked of course...but things are not totally computing here. And I know people are going to say this is not the time to criticize..no..the time was before this happened and before something happens equally bad in US. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:28 PM

Here's one update which indicates that water canons have been used in an attempt to refill the spent fuel pool in the damaged Unit 4 at the Fukushima 1 nuclear complex:

Problems continue to abound at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant. Helicopters have been flown in, using tons of water in an attempt to cool and control the reactors which are overheating. Water cannons have pumped out 30 tons of water to cool a sizable amount of spent-fuel near the No. 3 reactor, which has been one of the notable sources for radioactive fallout in the area. At this point, housing units for reactors Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4 have exploded or been exposed in some way, with their radioactive cores beginning to melt down, and Nos. 5 and 6 heating up. Emergency workers in the plant are working abbreviated shifts to reduce exposure to radiation, in addition to already wearing cautionary protective gear. Yukiya Amano, chief of the United Nation's International Atomic Energy Agency, is frustrated due to the death(SIC!!!!) of information, and arrived in Japan on Thursday to run an evaluation of the plant.

I believe they meant to say "a dearth of information."

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:30 PM

999... found the sucker! Elevation of roof tops is 96m.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM

Distance to water... very rough guesstimate at 300m to the edge of the buildings. But sommat ain't right... gotta check on...


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM

An interactive map in the New York Times this morning shows low level radiation in wind currents reaching west coast North America from Fukushima Friday-Saturday.

The Chevrolet Volt uses transmissions made in Japan. Delivery will stop due to factory slowdowns and/or stoppages. Just one of the effects on industries outside of Japan.

Some electrical power is being restored in the reactor area, but not yet usable in fighting the Fukushima problems.

Storage of spent rods- Each Fukushima reactor has between 60-83 tons of spent rods stored next to them. The size of the pools is very large, but I haven't found size specifications.
Vermont Yankee has 690 tons of spent rods on site. Article in The Nation, March 15, "Fukushima's Spent Fuel Rods Pose Grave Danger," Christian Parenti.

Some of the proposals for restoring water (above) do not take into account the large volumes needed, and the fact that a hot environment throws off water as steam almost as fast as it is added, unless volumes added are very large. Dispersal as steam almost as soon as water was dropped by helicopter was noted by observers. The supply must not only be large but delivered rapidly and continuously until the temperature drops.

Amounts of Caesium 137 being released by exposed fuel rods not yet reported.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:50 PM

Near as I can tell, the buildings are 74m above grade... well, when intact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:57 PM

The trunamis that hit Japan ranged between 10 to 30 METERS high.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:57 PM

Tepco hopes to have high voltage power lines restored to reactor 2 on Friday. The pumps also must be repaired and connected to power for cooling water to be delivered. NHK World TV Ustream just reported.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM

Charly wrote a very nobel letter in response to an op ed.

below


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 02:01 PM

Q... yes, lots of water and continuously will help with the spent fuel. And, 999's proposal is certainly within reason as long as the pumps can handle the volume and pressure required. Small pumps could work if many were used to feed a reservoir for larger pumps. The configuation of the system would depend on waht is available. Certainly an idea worthy of putting a team on ASAP.

As for the reactors... such a plan seems unlikely to me off the top of my head. It might even be a bad idea if it can't be done on an "even" basis, ie, cool one side and cause a stress differential. But, I am not a makeanickel engineer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 02:07 PM

"The trunamis that hit Japan ranged between 10 to 30 METERS high." Donuel

Really? 90 meters? I have found no estimates above 40 FEET.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 02:13 PM

Ebbie
My source is the Time Magazine editor.
He also said that he was at Phuket when the tsunami struck there.
That particular tsunami was only 1/3 as strong as the ones that hit Japan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 02:13 PM

When water becomes steam, it expands to 1600 times its own volume.

Looks like they will have electricity back soon.


Gnu,

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 02:15 PM

The grade and length of the land leading up to a beach is respondsible for wide variations of wave heights generated by a common ocean floor uplifting event.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 02:21 PM

Dunping water on something 3 or 4 thosuands degree hpot will usually just instantly turn that water to steam

If one actually could somehow emerse the containment vessel or cooling ponds with water... the sudden shock to the hot hot metal and concrete containment structures would cause them to crack wide open.

Also you can;t put water into a containment vessel if it is full of 1000 lbs per square inces of pressure with a 500 lbs pressure hose.

You have to take away the pressure, Problem is that valves can get stuck closed when pressure is high.

so many problems

Do you really thing ANY pipes are intact after the 4 huge explosions that tore up the containment buildings?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_N-wNFSGyQ

yeah right, the pipes are just fine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 02:29 PM

Hmmm... if the pipes are all blown to hell, why are they not leaking?

Valves can get stuck when the pressure is high... I did not know that. Can you explain it for me?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 03:22 PM

Depends on type of valve. Pressure seal valves and others also become stuck at high temperatures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 03:52 PM

Prof. Michio Kaku (Physics of the Future) is recommending the Chernobyl solution- bury and cement in the reactors. He says it is too late and too little to try to correct the failures. (MSNBC)

Water spray by helicopter will be done again on Friday (Tokyo time)

Lineups for food and fuel in Tokyo. Demand greater than supply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 04:14 PM

"Depends on type of valve."

Okay... which? Ball... butterfly...

I can understand heat but I was asking about the pressure as per the post above.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 04:19 PM

3Mile Island accidnt began with a stuck valve


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 04:26 PM

gnu, wut is a valve?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 04:37 PM

Okay... "pressure seal valves"... you mean a check valve? Doesn't seem likely you mean a check valve as they would only seal against unwanted revesre flow.

I realize we are all laymen here but I am am having a hard time following the logic at times. If youse are having a hard time following my logic, please cite me and edify me or at least question me. Sometimes, I think off the top of my head... I throw ideas out for the hell of it.

Perhaps it's useless and only serves for banter while we await what we all hope will be resolution of a very serious situation which may get to "criticality" (the word they have been using on NHK). The key point is... it is not critical yet. The sky has NOT fallen and is NOT falling... it's lookin like storm clouds movin in but the wind hasn't picked up enough to blow all hopes away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 04:39 PM

"gnu, wut is a valve?"

Who's on second?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM

I want NAMES !!!

Who the hell said the sky is falling?
Who said this is the end of the world?
Who said I am scared senseless?
Who said I just wet myself? ;*(




Just who does not feel that these events are grim just as they are?
I do. I believe others do as well.

Some of what is written here are facts, some are feeling, some are hopes and some are fears. I would not care to limit or define expression but I do take umbrege with characterizations such as "you people who cry the sky is falling...etc

Me thinks you are too busy to have read each and every post in the thread and that you jump in with a pre determined attitude. Furthermore you seem to have an certain expectation of other people's motivation, understanding and attitude, as though having an engineering degree is certification that only you have the rational key to events past present and future. Smug in the knowledge others do not know what they are talking about, you might think there really could be nothing to learn or even extrapolate from such frightened laymen and lay abouts.

Or maybe you just like being an insulting ass hole now and then, like the rest of us when we get fed up by events, pervs and bullies in real life..

I contend within this thread there are accurate representations with the little data that is released. I believe it is valuable to know what are lies and what is true. While I am not angry I am fiesty about stereotyping.

In the nuclear industry there are 5 trillion dollars worth of reasons to lie to the population. Every preceding nuclear accident have also begun with silence, delay and lies.

I believe the empathy for the victims to be is valid reason enough to be concerned. I also believe I welcome any and all gnu input gnu may have in the spirit of discovery and help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 05:18 PM

Furthermore I hate people who hate
And people who characterize other people are just like..just like..

hmmm


never mind


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 05:19 PM

That's pretty rich. Smug? Aloof as an engineer? Insulting asshole?

Fuck off. If you would talk sense instead of... oh nevermind. Have fun. Just try to take yer meds on time.

I shant engage in any more discussion... just keep up with the news. The ACTUAL news. The REAL situation as it EXISTS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 05:33 PM

Who is on second
What
what is on second
Whos on third
no, I don't know's on third

I don't give a damn is left feild.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 05:35 PM

High pressure causes deformation. High temperature causes high pressure. High temperature causes deformation.
Dearth of detail makes it impossible to be sure of details of construction, or of stresses resulting from temperature and/or pressure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 05:42 PM

I've noted how the concrete cooling pool is an integral part of the poured concrete which is part of and adjacent to the steel containment vessel. It looks likethe heat of both vessel and pool concentrates at particular points between them both.

Looking at that just reeks of BAD IDEA on top of the fact they are even in the same building.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:11 PM

have the owners of this fiasco even posted maps of their plants so other engineers can offer advice

And here..it looks like lots of openings to the sea..perhaps clutter underneath water but shallow boats could make it a bit of a ways to larger ones further out http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367208/Japan-tsunami-earthquake-Mayor-claims-people-abandoned.html

Are they trying to mobilize fishermen? Tourist boats? Surely they could get people who could walk if rubble was somewhat cleared out by boat. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:14 PM

Are you thinking fireboats? They can spray hundreds of feet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:17 PM

Charely Noble posted links to their site. There are stylized designs but nothing like blueprints. His other link to nuclear watch has the best detailed floor plans and complete history of repairs that the company tried to cover up and were later fined.

Things like patching the crack steel reactor vessel with welded patches were done instead of replacement


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:21 PM

Looking at a coastal map, four nuclear complexes are not far apart.

Onagawa nuclear complex is located almost due west of the epicenter of the quake. An emergency was reported here on Sunday, but radioactivity levels are normal.

Fukushima Daiichi complex, with its six reactors, is SSW of Onagawa; it is the one seriously damaged and the subject of the emergency measures.

Seven miles south of Daiichi is the Daini complex, where cooling has failed at three reactors. Later report available?

Still farther south on the coast is the Tokai complex, where a cooling pump failure was reported Sunday, but a backup was working.

Little has been reported except for the Daiichi reactors- Seemingly damage was minor at the other three complexes, all along the same stretch of coastline near Sendai. I don't know the number of reactors at each complex.

The map with locations of the reactor complexes is from the New York Times, found by googling fukushima nuclear map japan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 06:41 PM

Electric power is now in place ready for use. The next job is to see what can be powered up and what repairs can be done to restore water cirulation pumps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 07:31 PM

There is supposed to be a major electrical cable operational at the Fukushima 1 nuclear complex now. It's unclear whether any of the pumps can be reactivated. However, the US is in the process of transporting several large pumps from its base in Yokohama. Why the Japanese haven't done this already themselves is a mystery to me. Trying to deal with the evolving situation with helicopters dropping water, water cannons and fire trucks is clearly ineffectual. I don't think fireboats would be much of an improvement.

We certainly have no idea what the piping situation is in units 1, 2, 3, and 4 after the fires and explosions. But as one expert suggested today, they should have put fire hoses into the spent fuel pools days ago to restore their levels. It is another tragic human blunder that the spent fuel pools didn't receive more attention in the earlier stages of this accident.

It's my understanding that the tsunami protective wall for Fukushima 1 nuclear complex was about 25 feet tall, and the tsunami exceeded that by 5 or 6 feet, knocking out the back-up generators located in the basements of the reactor buildings. This will be remembered (hopefully) as two more human design failures at this complex.

The situation of the Japanese who are hunkered down in what's left of their homes between the 12 and 19 mile zones appears dire to me. They must be evacuated somehow. At this point they're not even supplied with food and water and this zone is likely to be subject to plumes of high levels of radiation for an extended period of time.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 07:51 PM

they are talking about 1 portable diesel generator now being set up by engineers...what is going on? Why does it take days to set up a generator? Maybe they mean connections are broken and there is some problem there.

Why are they talking of one? Why not 30? It does not sound like we are talking about huge bits of equipment if they are still relying on the firetrucks.

They need to admit certain amounts of incompetence and defer to other people is all I can think of. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 08:55 PM

Connecting of electrical cables hampered by radioactivity. Today (Friday in Japan) they will try to connect up number 2. Power expected to resume at 1 and 2 today.

Currently vapors rising from numbers 2 and 4 reactors. A panel blown out at no. 2 Thursday night.
(Water in storage pools should be 10 meters deep).
Water spraying will resume to no. 1 and 3 today when the government says it is safe. Some water remains at no. 4, it and no. 3 conditions most urgent.

Radiation is alpha to gamma, the steel plates on helicopters stop the gamma.
Neutron rays only released when there is "criticality," and that level not reached- not generated here.

The above from news releases by Tepco engineers a few minutes ago; not wholly coherent as I had trouble understanding the translation.

Defer to other people"- like the posters here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 09:09 PM

Who was talking about portable generators? Nothing on the latest Tepco-government releases about that. Heavy ones offered by U. S. Navy, but nothing more on that.
Connecting of electrical cables going on now.

Some water seems to remain in no. 4 pool, but evaporating, according to Tepco video.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 09:23 PM

More generators are better at this point. It may not be enough but why not keep trying.

I hope they don't run out of volunteers but given the culture in Japan I doubt that they will.

Who's doing the film script as we post? There's enough drama here to educate generations of survivors.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 07:31 AM

There seems now to be a plan to run a hose in 2 km from the nuclear complex. That seems to be a simple and more effective plan than fire trucks, water cannons, and helicopters dropping water. Why on earth didn't they do that earlier?

There also appears to be a hook-up with a new electrical cable to Unit 3 to run pumps. I'm hoping for an update on that but worried whether the pumps and the plumbing system will function after all the damage from the hydrogen explosions.

It's difficult to keep score at this point of what happened where and when. I'll try to do that later today unless someone else wants to give it a try.

I need to go to a business meeting now.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 11:08 AM

NHK.... Now at Level 5 (= Three Mile). Still dropping and pumping water (50 tonnes on reactor 3 but it was vapourizing). Power by Saturday. If they can't cool, they are gonna bury with sand and crete. They are going to (???) monitor temps.

6900 dead, 10,316 missing. Manpower and medical supplies at hospitals are short.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 11:11 AM

And with a lack of parts some automotive plants in the US are shutting down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 11:17 AM

are they deciding that one thing will not work before they even start preparing for something else? Are they stockpiling this sand and cement, which if it is a last case option they should have done on day one, or are they going to wait if options x y and z do not work to even assemble the materials? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 11:31 AM

First and foremost the people of Japan continue to be in my hopes and prayers.

In regards to Sinsull's statemnt ... "And with a lack of parts some automotive plants in the US are shutting down. " .... and wait until car's require parts for repairs ... and this just not pertain to Japanese cars ... many domestic models use part from Japan.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 11:35 AM

According to the BBC Japan has now just raised the alert level to 7.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 11:49 AM

BBC... Japan has raised the alert level at its quake-damaged nuclear plant from four to five on a seven-point international scale of atomic incidents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 11:52 AM

They are going to try to get power to #2 through #1. Hmmmmmmmm


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 12:30 PM

"The heat... risen 3%... Radioactive substances are being emitted to outside of the plant... raising to Level 5..." misister.

Translation was sketchy and I listened to it twice. AND, if they are only going to measure temps Saturday???

It's difficult to get a true picture as they use the words plant, reactor, building and others in a confusing manner. Now I don't know if steam was coming off the #3 reactor or the spent fuel pool(s) in #3/#4. or all of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM

Just saw another guy... cabinet secretary... steam was observed after spraying water in a building so it got to the pool.

Still kinda sketchy but a bit more precise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 12:42 PM

UPDATE ON FUKUSHIMA-1 NUCLEAR MELTDOWN

I just re-checked the Union of Concerned Scientists website and they have an excellent explanation which seems to explain why the hydrogen explosions occurred in the upper portions of the reactor buildings' secondary containment structure: click here for report!

There's also an improved graphic that I find useful for understanding the design of the reactor building and its major components.

In summary, when the back-up pumps failed the temperature began to increase within the reactor vessel and reached a point where hydrogen gas was being produced. At a certain point (at an elevated pressure) the engineers attempted to vent the hydrogen gas to the outside. Evidently before they did that the seals above the reactor vessel began to leak hydrogen gas into the secondary containment structure, which subsequently ignited and exploded (think leaky head gasket).

This type of problem was first identified for this kind of reactor design from tests taken back in the 1970's at a nuclear reactor in Brunswick, North Carolina. It's unclear what if anything the Nuclear Regulatory Commission did with these test results. Damn!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 12:59 PM

WHAT? They didn't know the max working pressure? That just fuckin floors me!!!

And they are still in charge... scarey indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 01:11 PM

According to the BBC today:

1630: Chile and the US have signed a nuclear energy agreement despite the ongoing situation at Japan's Fukushima nuclear power plant. Chile is also on the Pacific Ring of Fire and has its share of powerful earthquakes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 01:16 PM

I read one report that said they could not get close enough to get radiation readings so they took them from a moving car. Do they not have robots that could be sent closer?

And are there hydraulic engineers to be heard from? Pictures do not look like plant is far from sea..as in right on seacoast..say it is 2 miles..I think I read 2 KM or 1.6 miles..but it looks closer on pictures...anyway, we pipe water all the time. If they need to store it closer, bomb a crater and make a big pond. Do I have to go over there and take over?

And now talk of cementing the whole thing. What are issues involved in that? Do you want to bet they don't have a stockpile of cement on hand even though they have had a week to assemble it, as though it should not have been on hand in the first place.

Do they have water to mix in concrete? Are they assembling that? Can seawater be used in cement? I doubt it but maybe.

The whole world needs to chime in here with suggestions and shock. THis is not merely an act of nature. An act of nature would have been a 20 point earthquake. We have been told to expect 9s forever and ever. It is not a surprise.

It is an act of major governmental and industrial incompetence, and great lies and dishonesty, as reports coming out (Reuters) are showing.   mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 01:59 PM

mg-

There are large gaps in this narrative, some because of the reports we receive, some because certain options weren't even considered in the early stages of this continuing disaster. We won't know what exactly happened till years from now, if then.

Gnu-

Glad you read through the Union of Concerned Scientists update (above link). That is one of the conclusions. One wonders if there was any attempt by the Japanese to address this evident problem, assuming they were even informed.

The reactor units at Fukushima-2 nuclear complex are newer models and maybe that's why they were able to bring them back to cold shutdown without a hydrogen explosion under similar conditions. Making sense out of this evolving situation is a therapeutic exercises I indulge in; makes me think I have control over chaos. Whatever!!!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 02:05 PM

I might have to send Glorious Leader Kim over there. Between him and the Somali Pirates I think we will get her done. I think our universities here, including one I work for, have been noticeably quiet in terms of suggestions etc. Perhaps they are quietly corresponding..I imagine they are..but some suggestions need to be made public.

Glorious Leader not Kim said they are considering moving people from the tsunami hit areas..old people who are dying of cold, lack of medicine, lack of food, into non-hit areas. Now there is a thought. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 02:12 PM

Other nuclear complexes on Sendai coast-

All reactors at Onagawa, Daini and Tokai nuclear complexes now on cold shutdown.
A fire in the turbine bldg. at Onagawa was extinguished.
Daini was designed to withstand tsunamai of 6.51 meters; the level reached was 7 meters. Flooding to pump rooms at 1, 2 and 4 reactors.
Tokai reactors on cold shutdown.

Control is slowly being re-establishd at Daiichi complex; the no. 4 reactor is still not controlled.

The Tepco engineers and workers seem to be doing their best to lessen the dangers, and deserve our thanks for their efforts. Two workers have died and several are in hospital, condition not announced.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 02:33 PM

Q... "...and deserve our thanks for their efforts."

Indeed they do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 02:50 PM

Q-

"Daini was designed to withstand tsunamai of 6.51 meters; the level reached was 7 meters."

It's hard to believe that a tsuanmi that close to design specs could do so much damage. But they should be able to measure what level the tsunami reached with reasonable accuracy.

Of course the entire coast is said to have sunk a bit during the earthquake as well.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM

Well, if you pour billions of litres of water over a wall for a while it's gonna add up. Might even get in the doors. Maybe the next time they will make the buildings waterproof... or move the generators up in elevation.

They didn't even provide a seal for the buildings!! WTF? Now, I have said I have problems with politicians and accountants pinching pennies but IF this design ommission was caused by skinflints, the engineers who accepted their directives were definitely NOT doing their jobs. This is one of those cases when the engineers have no way out of the blame they deserve.

I know I could go to engineer hell for saying that publically (seriously) but it's the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 03:51 PM

That is 20 feet. We are told all the time here to expect 60 feet on the other side of the ocean. What df's. And it depends on whether it is gently rising like filling a bathtub, or a smash of water that would hit a wall and go over it, or a huge wave of debris smashing. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 03:57 PM

Charlie- that was at Daini, design 6.51 meters, water reached 7 meters. Damage minimal, some flooding to pump rooms as I noted. Cold shutdown carried out without problems.
----------------------

Seal for buildings, etc, why not hang them from a sky hook? Get real!


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 04:17 PM

Q... huh? You don't think a building can be made watertight? PC chip manufactures build airtight buildings. It ain't rocket science.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 04:33 PM

Reason for increase to level 5 on scale-

"The provisional evaluation stands at level 5 for the No. 1, No. 2 and No. 3 reactors, as their cores are believed to have partially melted and radiation leaks continue, Japan's nuclear safety agency said.
"The agency set the level at 3 for the plant's No. 4 reactor, where an overheating spent fuel pool is also posing risks, and two reactors at the power plant that were undergoing maintenance when the quake struck."
Japan Times, Sat. 19, 2011, "Workers Battle Against Time."

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110319a1.html

Two diagrams with the article show routing of reconstructed power cables from the switching station.

I had seen some statements about possible meltdown at three reactors; I had discounted them because of relatively low levels of radiation outside of the plant. Looks like there is still some question, but the paper indicates possible partial meltdown.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 05:09 PM

NHK... most of the motors and switchboards were damaged by the tsunami waters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 05:21 PM

submarines can be made watertight.

Don't they have tanker trucks there for water? Or whatever...lots of fire trucks standing by in a picture but I don't see tanker trucks. Do they go to the sea and fill from there? WHich is OK..

What about provisions for gas..probably not great in an explosion.

Are there signs of concrete trucks being brought in? Loads of sand? When do they plan to start stockpiling? Or have they? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 05:26 PM

It won't take a lot of sand and crete to begin the process of encasement. And, we are talking days, not hours, as has been the case from the start. It's not like a grenade pin was pulled... more like a time bomb was set ticking. (Sorry for that analogy but that's the situation.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 05:35 PM

And another new one reported by the BBC:

2110: AP reports that Greece is urging Turkey to halt plans to build a nuclear power plant. Turkey's first such plant is planned for Akkuyu, in the south, under a deal with Russia. Both Greece and Turkey are earthquake-prone.

The interesting thing about that is that Turkey had previously been planning a reactor at Sinop, on the Black Sea. (There was a sizable local protest about it when I was there a few years ago). Looks like the Russians gave Turkey an incentive to move it into somebody else's backyard. I wonder why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 10:22 PM

What are the problems with encasement? Long-term radiation in the area I believe I read. Sounds better than some of the alternatives. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 12:12 AM

The "seals" I was talking about are for the removable lid of the reactor primary containment, and there were seals. They just weren't designed well enough, as shown by the 1970's test in Brunswick, North Carolina, and leaked at a pressure reading before workers would normally vent out hydrogen directly out of the containment. For clarity, please read what the Union of Concerned Scientists had to say this morning. And yes, it's like a leaky head gasket in a forty year old car. The question is whether the seals were upgraded by the Japanese after the North Carolina test. Or if they were upgraded, did they still fail. What we do know is that there were hydrogen explosions in units 1 and 3, which blew out the upper walls and roof of the containment buildings. Unit 4 was decimated evidently from a hydrogen explosion from its spent fuel pool. Unit 2 evidently has an internal explosion which cracked the primary containment of its reactor but the reactor building looks reasonably intact. I think I'm keeping the score correctly but I'm no longer entirely sure.

The lid of the primary containment has to be "removable" so that the fuel rods can be periodically moved in and out of the reactor vessel, in case anyone is wondering why there is a lid at all.

I haven't seen any update on the results of power being restored on site at Fukushima 1 nuclear complex. That's a biggy.

Charley Noble, back from a hard evening's work at the Sidedoor Coffeehouse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 05:39 AM

That's the biggest selling point for the CANDU... no lid. It can be refueled without shuting it down and it's just plain safer in shutting down. Not that that has anything to do with this discussion. It would just be a good thing if "the world" spent the extra money and used this design in lieu of the other designs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM

NHK... Temps of #1,2,3,4 less than 100C. 7 hours of spraying # 3 building today. Getting ready to spray #4 building. Power to be connected to #2 soon, then to #4. #6 is up and running without generator. # 5 is also powered without generator and pump is operational (not clear if it is fully operational). They "believe" the spray is getting to the pool but they just don't know. The pumper vehicles are unmanned due to high radiation. The ar