BS: Bombing of Tripoli March-April, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 06:13 AM

And the "rebels" shot down their own jet!! The lefties ought to be glad that the former oil workers in Libya no longer have the opportunity to earn UK tax free salaries there.

By the way, we don't care what goes on in Rhodesia - it's of no consequence!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 06:20 AM

You don't declare a cease fire or even a seven fire one minute and then carry on bombing your own people the next. Thank goodness we now have a properly schooled statesman - like leader in David Cameron and not the hideous bumbling Brown!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:33 AM

<>i>Yeah, well, the bastard who you think was involved in the Lockerbie bombing almost certainly wasn't"

First, you have no idea what I think.

Second, the bastard I was referring to was Gaddafi.

Yeah, well, I meant not him as well. I've spent many a long hour looking at this case. I'm completely convinced that Libya was not involved. Try doing the same. It's an eye-watering miscarriage of justice, and, as I said, the people who have not got justice (apart from Megrahi) are the families' victims.

But I will agree with you that Gaddafi is a bastard. Just not for that reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Arnie
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:37 AM

Difficult to know what to do for the best here. With memories of the Srebenica massacre still being invoked, it would be seen as a repeat performance if the UN stood back and let mad-dog Gaddafi's murderous bunch loose on Benghazi with almost a million citizens living there.He has promised to root out the rebels (ie: everyone)house by house. I suspect that the atrocities that would be visited on these civilians would evenutally prompt some form of UN action but it would be too late to save many innocent lives. I suppose the best hope is that the Libyan military depose Gaddafi rather than see their assets blown to bits over the next few weeks. Unfortunately we're told that the command structure of the Libyan army is dominated by Gaddafi loyalists and will protect their man to the bitter end.If boots on the ground are needed, then it's time for the Arab league to stand up and prove that they are not just a talking shop.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:38 AM

Sorry, badly-garbled post. Yertis again, proper job.

Yeah, well, the bastard who you think was involved in the Lockerbie bombing almost certainly wasn't"

First, you have no idea what I think.

Second, the bastard I was referring to was Gaddafi.

Yeah, well, I meant not him as well. I've spent many a long hour looking at this case. I'm completely convinced that Libya was not involved. Try doing the same. It's an eye-watering miscarriage of justice, and, as I said, the people who have not got justice (apart from Megrahi) are the families' victims.

But I will agree with you that Gaddafi is a bastard. Just not for that reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM

I guess what bothers me the most is this idea that what is occurring in the Middle East and Northern Africa is probably going to be more regime change than meaningful change... I mean, even if some sore of bastardized democracy comes out of it I am fearful that the wealthy, like here in the US, will screw it up so that they continue to monopolize the wealth for themselves...

What we need more than the rearranging of deck chairs is a "revolution" in our thinking where greed and cheating and replaced with sharing and fairness... Until the US, which seems to be the model, cleans up it's act I don't see any fundamental changes occurring by booting one bad guy, putting in what folks might thing is a good guy only to see that good guy become the new bad guy...

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss... Or...

...("Animal Farm", George Orwell...)...

Same story...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:12 AM

...glass half empty??????

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:24 AM

I totally disagree with this action.
If there was consistency about american and european interference in other countries internal affairs, it might be more acceptable, but in truth the west does not care one iota about dictators killing their citizens, if they did they would have acted against Mugabe in Zimbabwe,The leader of the Yemen, Pinochet in Chile[ 30 YEARS OR SO AGO].
the west has tolerated gaddaffi for 40 years because it suited them, they do not care a fig about the people of libya

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:26 AM

well said Bobert ... 20 Mar 11 - 08:13 AM

I agree

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:48 AM

Pity there wasn't such compassion shown to stop the Ethiopian civil war.
Can we expect the U.N.to launch humanitarian missions in other countries in an effort to save millions from being slaughtered by other lunatic dictators ?

As I recall, they didn't bomb China after the events in Tiananmen Square. Or pull North Korea over their dreadful human rights record.

So what is it a case of, China/North Korea not having oil, or would it be their massive firepower ?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:53 AM

A "no-fly zone" means no flying is allowed by the forces against which it is directed.

The first logical stage in enforcing this is proper monitoring to ensure that it is being observed.

Only if there is evidence that it is being ignored is it appropriate to send up aircraft to enforce it, and the matter of ground-missiles etc become relevant.

Otherwise it's a bit like telling bank robbers to come out with their hands up, and shooting them when they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 10:20 AM

"So what is it a case of, China/North Korea not having oil, or would it be their massive firepower ?"

It's both of those, Richie. Politics is a matter of sheer pragmatism, and pragmatism trumps principle. Regardless of their rhetoric (which is mostly designed to placate their own public and make themselves look noble), governments undertake military actions of choice only when they think they can:

1. afford to do it
2. and succeed at doing it

Sometimes they miscalculate on both of those accounts. Time will tell whether they have miscalculated when it comes to getting involved in the conflict in Lybia.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 10:50 AM

The mandate of resolution 1973 is a bit broader than just the imposition of a no fly zone, it also authorizes member states to "take all necessary measures to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory."

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 11:52 AM

Problem is George, when they miscalculate, hundereds of thousands die and the war mongers walk away to write their memoirs or take up lucrative jobs as "peace envoys".

The men women and children of Iraq, Afghanistan and now Libya are the victims.

These people are seeing their children killed and mutilated for a lie
Democracy is not freedom, especially the type of democracy granted to to us.....and they can look forward to something even worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 11:55 AM

How do you define a civilian, insurgent, rebel, terrorist bobad?

Weasel words from weasel governments!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 12:04 PM

The Arab League has criticised the military strikes on Libya.
The Arab League said that Arabs did not want military strikes by Western powers. Only Qatar has openly supported the campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM

Here we go again...

If the US and it's buddies are so interested in regime change why is it that they kill everyone else first before getting to the bad guy???

Two week before the Iraq invasion Dan Rather got to sit across the table from Saddam... If Dan Rather could get that close, don't tell me that a Special Op couldn't...

Same with Gadaffi... If yer gonna kill him anyway why not just do itr and leave everyone else alive???

(But, Boberdz... We don't approve of assassination...)

Oh??? But blowing up other folks is okay???

Give me a break...

Shoot the sumabich and call it a day...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: JHW
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM

Killing one bastard in Iraq seemed like a good idea but the place turned out to be full of them

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 01:14 PM

Charlie, don't want to get your feet dirty?


(Neither do I).

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM

1. If the term "civilian" is to have any meaning in the internal Libyan conflict it can only refer to someone who is not an insurrectionist. Compare the IRA. Notice the word "Army" in their name?

2. Gadaffi's threats (at least as far as I read) were only against those not yielding to his advancing troops.

3. The troops were legitimately deployed against rebels - whichever side you prefer, and I probably prefer the rebels but preference is not the point, legitimacy is).

4. That deployment was internal to Libya and posed no threat to any external politic.

5.   For the UN to assume jurisdiction over such an internal matter is iffy at best. It wasn't a threatened genocide and the UN has ignored enough genocides over the years to constitute precedent.

6. I have not seen (that doesn't mean there isn't any, just that I haven't seen it) any threat of civilian (as I defined it) massacre.

7. So there was no pressing reason to enforce a "no-fly" zone anyway (other than a desire to interfere).

8. Gadaffi's missile sites around Tripoli were not apt for use for any massacre of civilians in Benghazi.

9. They had not been deployed against any foreign aircraft or other targets.

10. Thus the "Allied" assault can only have been a pre-emptive strike (not legitimate under international law) on an internal mission in a sovereign state (not legitimate under international law) as a matter of interference in internal politics (not legitimate under international law).

11. The position might have been different if there were a declared war or steps by Libya to launch an undeclared war - but there is no sign of any such.

This is colonialist aggression.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:00 PM

As I was turning off my computer last night, I took one quick peek at Mudcat and saw this thread. My first reaction was to want to lead an armed rebellion on Washington, D. C.

But wanting to find out a few more facts, I then turned on the radio to my local NPR affiliate. I was informed that the air attack on Libya just under way had been ordered by the UNITED NATIONS, was being spearheaded by FRENCH fighter jets, and the Tomahawk missiles were being fired from BRITISH submarines offshore. There were AMERICAN F-18 fighter jets involved, along with Harrier jump-jets, which I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) are BRITISH, going after the Libyan air defense system.

And where did I hear this spurious and slanderous report trying whitewash the roll of yet another heinous American grab for oil by trying to implicate other counties, such as Britain and France? Obviously, from that well-known voice of the American Right Wing—National Public Radio.

Nope. What I was listening to was NPR's regular midnight news feed from—

(Steady, now. . . .)

The BBC.

The only exercise some people around here seem to get is instantaneous knee-jerk reactions.

You might learn a few facts before gleefully piling on.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:14 PM

Obviously, this is not a country that does polls or allows polls to be done, but has anyone any idea what percentage of Libyans actually support his leadership. I imagine the rebels are in the minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM

I am wondering the same myself, Richie. The only reference I've heard is from an analyst on AlJazeera who said that the vast majority are opposed to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:36 PM

Yeah, would have been nice if there has been polls in Iraq prior to Bush ordering up the invasion... Yeah, ever hear where the cure is worse than the disease???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:38 PM

The Libyan armed forces have just announced a cease fire...again.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:39 PM

Doesn't you heart yearn for the good old days when John Wayne and William Bendix would have polished these bastards off in five minutes? Just a few B feature actors for the Duke to shove around, whip into shape and grow a few sweaty whiskers for Bendix's death scene. Then maybe a walk-on at the end for Henry Fonda to give out a Congressional Medal of honour to the Duke and a few purple hearts to the B actors.

Those cats knew how to have a war.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:43 PM

Al, John Wayne a Draft Dodger.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 03:45 PM

Especially John Wayne, who took on the Nazis in hand-to-hand combat while never leaving Hollywood for the entire 1940's.

Classic American hero.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: gnu
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 04:53 PM

Don't ye all go badmouthin The Duke. He was one of the best cheerleaders ever in the good ol US of A eh!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:07 PM

Cheerleader? Then there's The Great Prestigitator- Ronnie RayGun- who is responsible for the crapper that the U.S. is currently in. Ably assisted by The Duke.

Both spinners of delusional fantasy. And the Boobocracy ate 'em up.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: gnu
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:29 PM

Now yer talkin showman... barker. What is gonna take to get you to buy this war now? If you walk out that door the boss may not give you near as good a deal when you come back.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 05:40 PM

SUCH A DEAL!

No thanks, I'll pass.

Had enuf idiotic, pointless and ultimately self-defeating wars for ten lifetimes.

But thanks for asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: bobad
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 06:20 PM

"How do you define a civilian, insurgent, rebel, terrorist bobad?"

When tanks and heavy artillery have surrounded and are shelling cities I consider that an attack on civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:20 PM

Oh, didn't Israel do that in both Gaza and the Lebanon - specifically civilian positions? And the Allies to Berlin in WWII?

How do you invade a city held by rebels without shelling enemy positions?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 07:35 PM

"proxy civil war launched by sympathizers of a foreign power" ...."Sudetenland"

Gee, the poster has actually read some history.   The fans go wild.

Now perhaps he can find some actual evidence that the Libyan uprising was "launched by sympathizers of a foreign power".

But I don't think we should hold our collective breath waiting for said evidence.

Another sterling example of folkie strategic thinking.   No wonder folkies are so admired for this in the wider world.

Nobody, however can say that Mudcat conspiracy theories are not entertaining--as long as logic, sense, and facts are not of primary concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 08:43 PM

GUEST,bankley;
"March 19, 2003 - Bush / Iraq
March 19, 2011 - Obama / Libya
I believe some things don't Change"

Blankley, THANK YOU for bringing this post to the attention of our Mudcat partisan, devotees!!! You are scratching the surface, of what is hidden, behind the charade, and facade, of what a bunch of these people can't see, because of their subscription to which ever, the most persuasive propaganda, which has been 'tailor-made' to their pre-programming!! It has blinded a lot of folks out there, let alone on here!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 09:28 PM

"But I don't think we should hold our collective breath waiting for said evidence."

You shouldn't hold your breath waiting for ANY future post, Ron, either pro or con. Your body needs oxygen, and it is uncertain when the next post from any other person might come. You could fall unconscious before it did or even die! Therefore I suggest that you stop making remarks about us all "holding our collective breath waiting" for this or that, as it wouldn't be a practical idea at all, and it serves no useful rhetorical purpose either in the sense of advancing any form of rational argument. ;-)

If you have been holding your breath waiting for people you disagree with to either offer evidence or say something to change your mind, I suggest that you discontinue that unhealthy practice ASAP!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 10:06 PM

Let's just see what develops--as I say, Mudcat conspiracy theories are at least entertaining--with the caveat I mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 10:23 PM

What makes this into a nighmare. Bloody Cameron pretending he knows what he's doing. Nobody can even guess how this is going to turn out.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 10:51 PM

I'm just waiting for Bobert and Amos to pop up and do some Obama cheer-leading. At least Don Firth has expressed some disappointment, with the 'Calamitter in Chief'.....actually, I don't entirely blame Obama for this, but I would blame him for not leveling with the American people, and reveal what's really going on,* and just who is pulling the strings! I think that if he did, and could prove it, both sides would rally behind him, after a bit of skepticism. I think the involved American public are tired of having their intelligence insulted, and treated like a bunch of nobodies, as if we don't matter!

GfS

*Unless he is only responding to Muslim uprisings, and then and only when they are really in trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 11:08 PM

"...pulling the strings...."   

Ah yes, perhaps the dark conspiracy theorist's favorite phrase.

Whenever there's any mystery, "they" must be behind it.

It's rather amazing how popular that phrase--and that theory--is across the whole political spectrum--with anybody who doesn't bother to do research.

I'll admit it certainly is a great excuse for laziness--and of course lazy people can be found across the whole political spectrum.

So its popularity should really not be surprising, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 11 - 11:59 PM

Why is action being taken by the West in Libya, specifically? Out of altruism only? I doubt that. There must be a number of serious pragmatic reasons for doing so, I would think. I don't call that a "conspiracy", I call it Realpolitik, as always. Countries make moves that they think will be of benefit to themselves in the long run. Various objectives are being sought. One of them might be just to get rid of Gadhafi, because he's a loose cannon and a problem for just about everyone. I could understand the West having such an objective...but that's not altruism. That's practical politics with an objective that makes sense.

Why did the West choose to side with the Libyan rebels? Altruism? Well, that's why the general populace in the West (including me and Ron Davies) sympathizes with the rebels...but I very much doubt that it's the reason why several western powers are intervening in the crisis. I think they see an opportunity...but for what, I couldn't say.

I have no theories to propound about it..."conspiracy" or otherwise. I just think it's another round of power politics, that's all. Gadhafi appears to have worn out his welcome with his former friends in the West, so he'll probably be replaced in awhile by someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: BTNG
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:04 AM

why is it that right wing loonies like bonzo_3_legs think that just because one doesn't support David Cameron and that political opportunist Nick Clegg, one MUST have voted Labour? no logic there. But when did the right wing ever allow logic to get in the way of their agenda?

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:29 AM

The only logic most people will tolerate is that which supports their chosen position. They ignore all other forms of logic. This is equally true of most people on both the Right and the Left (though my sympathies lie almost entirely with the Left).

What I'm saying is: I recognize the bullshit, hypocrisy, and self-serving nonsense that is so common on both sides of the table....but I like the original philosophical bent of the Left far better in most respects.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 12:40 AM

Little Hawk: "Why is action being taken by the West in Libya, specifically?...."

Possibly the oil hub....but, in all honesty, I'm not exactly sure of all the reasons..but the big terminals are in the east. I've been more focused these days on the music. Just did a two night concert gig, and wrote some stuff for a new female vocalist to try. It went over great! ..even tears in the audience. Great song!..and she pulled it off(a gambled for surprise).

Ron Davies: ""...pulling the strings...."   

Ah yes, perhaps the dark conspiracy theorist's favorite phrase."

OKAY, you tell me how someone can be so negligent, and rule against the will of the people, AND the Constitution, without getting directives from elsewhere. I was trying to give him credit for not being so blatantly incompetent..but, you can have it your way, too....I could buy that.....but something here doesn't quite wash, as being up and above board, wouldn't you say??...unless, of course you are one of those people who support wars where we don't belong.(?)
In that case, I would think you supported both Bush's excursions into the mid-east...or Reagan's venture, in bombing Qaddafi...maybe you were. That's your prerogative.
But it ain't no 'conspiracy theory'....its just the way it is.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:04 AM

All the Obama "liberals" seem to have mysteriously vanished.....have they been incarcerated by the forces of darkness?

Or is there another reason?

Conspiracy lives!

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:13 AM

Naw, Now that he's been in office long enough for the dummies to finally get what he's about, I think they're too embarrassed; his supporters are afraid of being found out as being lamer than polka-dotted shit balls....with pansies growing out of them!..He is just getting to hard to defend, with a straight face!
They just didn't listen, when I was calling him Oblabbo, during the elections. We don't have leaders here in America...we've got celebrity salesmen.....and bogus crusaders!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:28 AM

One thing that has struck me about this is how the UN resolution hasn't learnt anything from the way the remarkable way in which these rebellions were organised and has a concept of war that is still frankly 19th century. For example, I am sure it must be possible to jam or disable the means to make television or radio broadcasts which would greatly reduce the propaganda advantage Gaddafi has; but I am not at all clear that is authorised under the resolution

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:35 AM

Good morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Bombing of Tripoli has just begun
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 21 Mar 11 - 04:35 AM

100