BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:33 AM

DMcG posted 'I don't think I have ever paid more that £15 for a Christmas tree. So that is 37.5p saved per annum.'

You forgot the VAT of 7.5p, so you would be saving 45p per annum, assuming of course that the tax saving was passed on to you.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:34 AM

We've had just three dishwashers in 33 years, and that includes the knackered old one we inherited with the house. That one lasted only a year.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:41 AM

"That one lasted only a year."
I've lasted much longer than that
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:46 AM

This sounds bloody middle class but a dishwasher saves huge amounts of grief. A house without a dishwasher is like a pub with no beer, or a Morrisons without Negroamaro. Just off to read the news.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:46 AM

You need to persuade whoever's in charge that it's the way you treat them Steve
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:57 AM

Interesting thought

Boris may be out by Christmas ,

I don't think I would put any money on it and would worry about the replacement but there is some sound reasoning there.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 19 May 20 - 06:12 AM

if i was performing like that in my job i would be disciplined and asked if it was really the job for me......i think, given the opportunity, he would jack it in tomomorrow

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 20 - 11:08 AM

Maybe it begins, or maybe I have missed other instances:


Scientists are to blame if the government blundered in its response to the coronavirus pandemic, a cabinet minister says.

Thérèse Coffey responded to growing criticism of strategy over testing and the lockdown by acknowledging “wrong” decisions might have been made – but arguing ministers had only followed the experts.

“If the science was wrong, advice at the time was wrong, I'm not surprised if people will then think we then made a wrong decision,” the work and pensions secretary said.


So, no. No one assumes the science to be perfect, but your role as ministers involved challenging it -   how certain is this? What are the alternative possibilities - as well as blending it with other priorities, like financial aspects and politics and humanity. The optimal purely scientific path may well involve approaches that are incompatible with, say, human rights legislation. That will happen because they deal with different aspects of life. It is your job as minister to sort all that out.

Apparently a spokesman for Boris distanced the government from that view:

Boris Johnson's spokesman distanced him from Ms Coffey's comments, saying: “Scientists provide advice to the government, ministers ultimately decide. That’s how government works”

That is correct. Whether they will stick to it when the time comes for an investigation is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:55 PM

There is also the fact that the UK has fared far worse than many other countries. All governments should follow the advice of their experts but it seems that some interpret that advice according to political or economic conditions while others do it to protect lives.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 20 - 01:13 PM

Nearly 40 years ago on my degree we were studying how selective tory politicians are,
in basing decisions on the chosen scientists who can be used to justify tory ideological agenda...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 20 - 01:17 PM

.. and Coffey reaffirms how ruthless tories are in turning on and blaming others for their own mistakes..

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 20 - 01:30 PM

Quite interesting in today press conference that the scientists (and under pressure the minister) have said that the decision to stop the testing on March the 12 was only the advice given the shortage of tests. That is somewhat different to Professor Whitty and the ministers claim at the time that that was the best scientific advice (without qualification.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:27 AM

I think 'best scientific advice' was probably a euphemism for 'how can we do testing with no test kits' Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:46 AM

I am sure that is right, DtG. As I am sure I said before, 'the best scientific advice' when unconstrained may well be different to the best when constrained in various ways. That is why I think Professor Whitty et al did themselves no favours at all by being too political. They needed to be clear at all times exactly what question they were answering and what the constraints were.

It has taken some time to sink in, but some of the scientists are now starting to do that. Last night's press conference was a good example. Mid you, it is quite enlightening to see the comments people make on Facebook as the conference processed. There are plenty of our-government-can=never-be-wrong comments, and there was a lot of chatter about how rude Angela McLean was being. I did not see it myself, unless by 'rude' you mean not letting some of George Eustance's spin pass without clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 May 20 - 03:54 AM

Angela McLean said what the scientific advice was on reopening. As she should and they all should. Science is open and we pay them after all. Scientists should say what the scientific and public health advice is. If government want to do something different which results in more deaths, they should say so and justify it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 May 20 - 03:55 AM

And with now around 60,000 deaths, getting up towards the toll on the Somme, I do not know how Whitty, Vallance and Harries can live with themselves, and not issue an apology.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:29 AM

One thing I think is quite likely to come out of this is for EU to agree a standardised way of recording deaths etc that will make it much easier to compare countries when something like this happens in the future.

The UK will go its own way, of course, on principle.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:06 AM

Good piece in the Guardian about how reopening infant schools might look on June 1:

Distanced drop-offs and protective bubbles: England's new school rules

The school featured is no longer scheduled to reopen to reception infants as it's in Calderdale, which has advised schools to stay as they are. And you might just detect a family connection!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:14 AM

Link to that article for anyone struggling to find it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:15 AM

Great cartoon in The Times this morning
Ist picture shows Johnson holding up sign saying "targets are necessary
The next one shows his back with a target pinned to it reading "Covit Enquiry"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 20 - 08:55 AM

Aa-a-a-and.... John Crace - predictably - nails it yet again!

I could almost feel sorry for Hancock....if he wasn’t usually such a cocky, smart-arsed, lying little twat. As things are, he looks set to become the sacrificial lamb on the altar of Johnsonism. He deserves nothing better.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 11:40 AM

Away from the pandemic I see that government ministers are now reneging on the promises about customs checks and northern Ireland.

Why does this not surprise me?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 20 - 12:05 PM

It’s pretty clear that The Johnson Gang are using the Covid-19 crisis as cover for them driving the UK over the cliff-edge of a No-EU-Trade-Deal Brexit by the end of the year, and using Covid-19 as an excuse. Probably one of the reasons they didn’t rush about in the early days of the virus trying to minimise its effect in the UK.

Standard Tory Distraction Technique. Makes a change from “Look over there - Labour Antisemitism!” I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 20 - 12:13 PM

It was great watching Johnson squirming on PMQs, having to say that the government would continue to applaud the NHS and other key workers on Thursday nights but, in the next breath, saying that the surcharge levied on foreign NHS workers in order for them to themselves obtain NHS treatment would remain in force.

You couldn’t make those Tory A-holes up, could you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 20 - 01:03 PM

From the protocol on Northern Ireland:

We are mindful that Irish and other EU leaders repeatedly
emphasised in the context of a ‘no deal’ scenario in 2019 that compliance with Single Market and Customs Union acquis for goods did not require any physical infrastructure at the land border. Logically that must also be the case in the context of the agreed solution constituted by the Withdrawal Agreement.

Only if you have no understanding of logic or English. Saying you do not require an infrastructure in one place says nothing at all about whether you think it would be needed in a different place.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 May 20 - 01:05 PM

But tories have always followed a traditional consistent line of gratitude
towards essential overseas public servants...

"Thanks for helping, now f@ck off back where you came from..."...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 May 20 - 03:05 PM

i'm 64 - asthama, blood pressure, frequent infections sort of issues and i work supporting adults with disabilities, usually autism. i've been off work for a coupe of months now, being careful. i doubt very much i'll be going back - i need the money and i miss my friends at work- the service users more than my paid colleagues - they are the best people i have ever worked with. but i'm not going to go back. that's it, my work is done - i would never, ever, do anything that could be misconceived as backing this fucking shower of shit. i've known all my life what the tories are about and see what they do and as a union rep i would support my colleagues in any way i can. but i'm not getting ill and maybe dying for these vermin

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 20 - 04:58 PM

Yasmin Alibhai Brown, making her opinion of the malevolent Priti Patel perfectly clear in the inews digital edition.

I find her lack of loyalty to people of the same background and origins as herself jaw-dropping. Who needs enemies with friends like her?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:00 PM

And by ‘her’ In the second and third sentences, I mean, of course, Priti Patel.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:25 PM

Haven't I done well, 3 threads removed in one day. So it seems that if one is abusive towards Tories, that's fine. But if Tories dare to andwer back, then eventually forum membership is terminated/threads are terminated - speaks volumes dontcha think?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 May 20 - 07:07 PM

..and in the blue corner, representing the tory pity party of Great Britain..

Croydon's reigning light-weight accounting champion.. iiiiittt'sss.. Bonzzzzzzzzzz...

Challenging in the red corner, we have all the lefty bullies in mudcat,
ganging up in an unfair fight,
looking mean, and eager to kick poor innocent weak tory arses..

But wait, before the fight even begins,
Bonz has been disqualified
for falsely playing the victim, unjustly smearing his opponents, and tampering with the ref and judges..

Not again... a tory self defeat through blatant dishonest game rigging.. when will they ever learn...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 03:48 AM

Two were closed, Bonzo, not removed. The Jon Doran one was closed because it became not about him. The why has that thread been closed was closed because you cannot publicly discuss moderation policy. I didn't see the third but if it was about UK politics it will have been removed because only one UK politics thread is allowed and that is this one.

Your point about it being a political decision is completely invalid and accusations of moderation bias at best help no one and at worst will get this thread closed too.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 21 May 20 - 04:48 AM

Local Resilience Forums fear being overwhelmed if there is no Brexit extension given the coronavirus.

"The warning is contained in a 76-page report by the C-19 National Foresight Group, a cross-government team supporting local resilience forums (LRF)."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 20 - 05:07 AM

When you consider that most yanks are to the right of our Tory party, even most Democrats, and that the mods are mostly yanks, it seems a bit odd to accuse them of anti-Tory bias. Know what I mean, Bonzo? Are you thinking this through? And there are still Tories here. I expect most posh Tories would be a bit embarrassed to post on a forum peopled by scruffy, beardy, unwashed, Aran-besweatered nasal singers with beat-up guitars and bell-bottom jeans anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 05:16 AM

Speak for yourself, Shaw. I got rid of my bell-bottoms years ago and now go out in my best brown baggies and my platform soles :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 08:17 AM

(I thought you may be having abuse withdrawal symptoms) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 21 May 20 - 08:47 AM

Dyson staff refuse to return to work

I have been having this 'disagreement' elsewhere about confusion in the government's message, and it is interesting that good old Rees-Mogg seems to having the same issue as Dyson.

Part of the government advice is stay at home if you can work from home, and only go to work if you can't work from home.

"If you can't" is suitably ambiguous there. In Rees-Mogg's Parliamentary interpretation, it is essentially, "if your boss permits you." The ability to work remotely, even at a somewhat reduced efficiency, is not enough to say you can work from home. He, and Dyson, and indeed the Government's approach on schools, would like it to be essentially the employer's decision. And oddly enough the employees are not universally happy about that.

I was particularly struck that part of Rees-Mogg's justification that the Houses of Parliament were Covid-Secure was that there would be additional cleaning. But that, of course, essentially transfers the risk of infection from the MPs to the cleaners. What is being done, I wonder, to make sure the site is Covid-Secure for the cleaners? Dare I guess the answer is "Not really thought about it ... they can wear gloves, what more do you want?"

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 May 20 - 10:07 AM

Given that another 60,000 people have been infected in the last week despite the current legislation I find it frankly astonishing that anyone would want to relax the legislation or suggest that people return to places to work where infection is most likely to occur.

That is tantamount to manslaughter at the very least.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 May 20 - 11:37 AM

Without evidence, what I am about to suggest may be dismissed as mere bonkers conspiracy theory..

But considering known tory [and even further right wing] form, not entirely implausible...

We've already seriously considered that elements of the tory govt are exploiting the pandemic
as an opportunity to cull vast numbers of the expensive unproductive old and weak in society..

Now let's also add in the possibility that the pandemic and it's prematurely ending lockdown,
might also be weaponised
as a means of ruthlessly deliberately murderously purging essential occupations
of many workers regarded as too left wing...???

"Cull and Purge".. a new snappy inner sanctum tory slogan they don't want the wider population to hear about...

Far fetched...???

.. but only a small step away from the criminal negligence and mass manslaughter this tory govt is already guilty of...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 May 20 - 11:45 AM

"Without evidence, what I am about to suggest may be dismissed as mere bonkers conspiracy theory.."

Indeed it could.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 12:10 PM

The idea that we could have a world wide web containing the sum.of human knowledge was a bonkers idea not that long ago!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 21 May 20 - 12:20 PM

there is plenty of evidence that proves the main purpose of the neo liberal project is to break up and sell-off the public assets of the state to sell to their rich friends. of course this is done under the name of friendly sounding propoganda like 'free trade' or 'freedom and democracy' etc - sold to us but the propoganda department of the 'free' billionaire owned press. the only question is the whether the damage done to state assets around the world can be seen as direct harm to the citizens. in some cases (see usa health care) it clearly is. as we now realise in england - in many ways, particularly in health and social care) the people ARE the state and will suffer and die if not cared for properly. i've just been reading a bit about the incredible financial arrangments of the largest care home providers in england. these massive assets are sold off eg between germany, dubai and the usa at an alarming rate and all wish to cut costs and piss off workers on minimum wage. this since 1989 when thatcher opened up this part of the health system to the market. anyway - yes, they are killing us but doing a pretty good job of the cover up. look at that old guy walking round his garden! marvelous- good old great britain!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 20 - 01:39 PM

UK and EU disagree about access to crime database
I don't see why anyone should be surprised by rugs as it was identified as a problem area well before the 2016 vote. We have heard from Brexiteers that it will not be a problem because Interpol existed a long time ago, but in an apprent revelation to the UK, it it is a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 20 - 01:47 PM

by rugs?   Blooming autotext.

by this..

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 20 - 03:26 PM

UK and EU disagree about access to crime database
I don't see why anyone should be surprised by this as it was identified as a problem area well before the 2016 vote. We have heard from Brexiteers that it will not be a problem because Interpol existed a long time ago, but in an apprent revelation to the UK, it it is a problem.
An interesting viewpoint from The Guardian.

I note it says: The EU has said it is legally impossible for non-EU countries not respecting free movement of people to access the database and has proposed more basic information sharing.

But then elsewhere, The Guardian (yes, the same Guardian) is telling us that the EU no longer has free movement of people. So presumably no-one has access to the database: Yet despite a timid attempt by the European commission to coordinate the reopening of unrestricted cross-border movement within the union, the Schengen common-travel area remains in limbo, along with the lives of millions of EU citizens. If restrictions are easing, borders are not falling.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 20 - 03:29 PM

The idea that we could have a world wide web containing the sum of human knowledge was a bonkers idea not that long ago!

Yes, but unfortunately the world wide web carries a similar amount of total crap. As such it takes a lot of research to be able to identify what, of the content, can be considered part of "the sum of human knowledge".

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 22 May 20 - 03:47 PM

I don't think you really believe that is a genuine inconsistency, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 20 - 04:45 PM

DMcG:
You're right, I don't believe it's an inconsistency.
I think it's perfectly consistent with Guardian standards. Or EU standards for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 May 20 - 04:52 PM

The internet is overwhelmed with right wing brexiteer zealots
rationalising their perverse biased notions...

That's my "imho", but stated as 'fact'.. [because it most probably is...]...

Hopefully we get some of the more rational brexiteers posting here...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 May 20 - 04:57 PM

Hopefully we get some of the more rational brexiteers posting here...

Oxymoron alert...