BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 07:19 AM

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:59 AM
Just checked back... I had a bit of quiet banter with Maggie around 17 June, less of a one with her around 5 May and a brief and cheery exchange with Barb'ry in early April. That's it.

So, April, May & June. Not quite what I would have expected from the statement: For your info, Nigel, I haven't communicated with anyone wearing a mod hat for a long time.

As for: In none of those cases did I try to hire them as my attack dog. Ask 'em! What is it with you at times, Nigel?
What is it with me? It was you who had just said: I'll set Barb'ry on to ye, and she has TEETH!

Maybe you're getting older, and forgetting exactly what you have said & might regret.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 07:44 AM

Too literal by far, Nigel. I should think that anyone reading what I said Barb'ry-wise would see it as an attempt to calm things down in jocular fashion. Anyway, if Barb'ry sees it differently I'm sure she'll be along presently to give me a rocket. So thanks for taking the steam out the political debate by acting daft, Nigel. You do have your uses.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 12:39 PM

Labour must relearn how to talk with working class ex supporters..

For too long now, Labour has been dominated by middle class academics and career politicians..

The mass of ex voters who flocked to ukip and then boris,
were sick of being lectured, patronised, scolded,
talked down to by haughty Labour ideologues...

I personally have experience interactions with academic socialists,
who were snootily disdainful and afraid of ordinary rough and tough
working class folks..

Labour needs to address people like my council estate family,
in a tone of welcoming common vernacular,
not the sanctimonious scornful dismissive way some high profile Labour MPs
have been doing in recent years...

That does not mean giving into and adopting populist nationalism and far right hatreds,
but engaging working class folk in positive persuasive dialogue
on their own terms,
not the terms of middle class snobs and ideological zealots...

Labour must reach back to it's working class roots...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 02:35 PM

"I personally have experience interactions with academic socialists,
who were snootily disdainful and afraid of ordinary rough and tough
working class folks.."

I'd better be more specific, in case anyone here takes it the wrong way..

Those were my experiences in the real world,
outside, well away from mudcat...

Classic worst example;
was an uptight middle class workers revolutionary party / militant feminist college lecturer,
who I saw sitting at the back of a bus to Bristol Poly..

She was crammed very uncomfortably amongst young Bristolian estate lads,
and the look on her face was a mix of contempt, disgust, and terror...

That still symbolically sums it up for me,
Socialists who despise the working class...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:32 PM

i son't want much to do with workington anymore

pete

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 02:52 AM

PFR
No intention in getting involved in this thread while somewhat disturbing abuse is the only response to criticisms of the Labour leader
If you think a worried young woman sitting on a bus surrounded by a crowd of estate lads has anything to do with her being a socialist thinker, I suggest you might get out more
I lived on one of the roughest overspill estates in Britain - Kirkby; for several years bus drivers refused to drive ot there after nine o clock at night because of the behaviour of the estate lads
I would rather try to hitch home up the East Lancs coming home from the pictures rather than risk the twenty minutes bus journey and I was working on the docks - that a young woman travelling alone might be disturbed is hardly contempt for the working class
Putting this behaviour down to Socialist thinkers really does seem to take you a step even further than "Santa, the Easter Bunny, and Tooth Fairy"

One of my first involvements in active politics (even before I became involved in Folk Song) was to spend a week at a summer school in Hastings listening to magnificent tutors such as Ranji Palme Dutt, E P THomson and Raphael Samuels, alongside trades unionionists like Jimmy Reid
They turned out to be great drinking companions for an apprentice electrician, after the days work was over

This anti-intellectualism has proved the main stumbling block to workers progress -
My merchant Seaman grandfather knew that as a young sailor when he helped set up branches of The Workers Education Association on the ships he worked on
His favourite saying was "Why should the well off have all the knowledge"
I still cringe when I hear people I respect and like say "I've never read a book in my life and it never did me any harm" - it's that type of attitude which keeps us where we are

Back to pleasanter territory, I think
Jim
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 03:13 AM

I see that the government report about Russian involvement in our politics has finally been published. To late of course Generalissimo BoJo suppressed it until he had his feet under the table. Proof of more despicable actions from a despicable regime. And I'm not just talking about Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 03:33 AM

Rather amused to hear that they didn’t investigate whether the Russians influenced the Brexit Referendum, then reported that they ‘found no evidence’ of Russian involvement in the Brexit Referendum.

Duplicitous cockwombles.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 04:15 AM

Great post, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 04:52 AM

'why should the well-off have all the knowledge' back in the early days of privatisation my (tankie) friend and i (trot) were, of course, not buying into that thatcherite nonsense. we've regretted it since - they were basically giving money away - why should it all go to the rich?

is never learning the language of money principled or foolish in the circumstances?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 05:36 AM

It always amused me when my wealthy customers treated me like a dog walking on its hind legs when I discussed literature or classic films with them
I say some of the most enviable collections of books on display in their homes, yet when you went into the bedrooms to do your work you'd find Jeffrey Archer on one bedside table and Barbara Cartland on the other
If it wasn't for our skills they'd have to shit in the garden in the dark
B bit "leftie-peftie" I know
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 06:02 AM

Bet they and their descendants all voted brexit too, Jim...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 07:58 AM

Icanot see any advances being made through the democratic voting system other than possibly ecological energy advances or a change to the voting system. the people that control most of the money are not going to allow it

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:14 AM

The Labour Party has agreed to pay substantial damages for "failing to properly carry our and obstructing enquiries into antisemitism in The Labour Party" thereby admitting that Labour has a serious antisemitism problem
I wonder if Starmer's supporters here will react to that news
I'm my opinion, no fresh evidence that those accused have done anything more than criticise Israel, as did Long-Bailey
Nice to know the workers party is in safe hands
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:22 AM

I wonder just how many times Carroll will need to be told that people on here are not "Starmer supporters" but accept that for good or bad that he was voted as leader by a majority of Labour party members.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:26 AM

Starmer is working like buggery to distance himself from ""Corbynism." Funny, that. He was by far the most prominent right-winger to REFRAIN from distancing himself whilst shamelessly fence-sitting in Jeremy's shadow cabinet. But now... What price principles?


Et tu, Brute?


The Board Of Deputies will be rubbing their hands with glee. "We GOT 'im!"

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:30 AM

The vehement argument has been made here by several people that we need Starmer in order to make Labour electable. If you subscribe to that idea (which is in any case a severe delusion) and say so out loud, you can hardly complain if you get called a Starmer supporter!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 08:32 AM

Incidentally, I would respectfully suggest that, in order to help preserve some calm around here, we refrain from the Teribus/Iains stunt of calling people by their surnames...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 09:01 AM

"The vehement argument has been made here by several people that we need Starmer in order to make Labour electable. If you subscribe to that idea (which is in any case a severe delusion) and say so out loud, you can hardly complain if you get called a Starmer supporter!"

Sorry Steve, that is abject nonsense. I do not think anyone who has expressed an opinion would have chosen Starmer themselves. In fact I think they have all said they would NOT have chosen Starmer.

So to suggest that they are "Starmer supporters" is twisting the words of people to suit your own agenda.

Now I know you would not condone that in others so please don't use that tactic yourself eh! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 09:29 AM

"I wonder just how many times Carroll will need to be told that people on here are not "Starmer supporters" "

When people start saying that he should not be supported will do fine for me
It appears you are in a cleft stick - you want the party elected with someone who is prepared to sell out the part at its head
If the Labour Party isn't guilty of Antisemitism, the leader needs to challenge that
If it is, I for one would not with to vote for an antisemitic party
In taking this action Starmer has taken steps to appease supporters of one of the most dangerous nations on the planet
Do people really want that as an opposition in Britain today ? - I don't

Regarding the use of my surname - I'm more than happy to understand who I am arguing against - it's become a little boring to be insulted while at the same time told that they like and respect me
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 09:38 AM

Can I just add that it strikes me that what is happening here is a microcosm of what is taking place in The Labour Party as a whole - a group of basically at each other's throats over the actions of the Labour Leader
This can't be a hopeful situation considering what's happening in the ountry as a whole
What are we going to be asked to compromise on next - rising unemployment, the lowring of living standards ?
Any Party worth its salt has to have clear long term objectives
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 09:58 AM

Yet more twisting of words to suit an agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 10:29 AM

My only "agenda" in this thread over the last few weeks has been to put the case that it is useless to support/promote/talk up (call it what you will) the current leader of the party on the grounds that you think that he's the only way that Labour could be made electable. That is a sad delusion - he has already shown severe weakness and lack of principle, traits that will come back to bite his arse before the next election. He has so far failed, and will continue to fail, to unite the party. The decision to sack RLB and today's decision over the paying off of dishonourable "whistleblowers" simply show that the real boss of the party right now is the pro-Israel lobby. On top of that, the next election is very likely to be between him and Sunak. Just roll that one round your brain for a minute as you contemplate the respective images of the two men...

Having said all that, I'll be in the party supporting him at the next election. Only because I don't see that I have any other alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 10:49 AM

"Yet more twisting of words to suit an agenda."
This is a bit like Labour Pary antisemitism - alluded to rahher ran described
What agenda are you suggesting ?
I want a decent trustworthy politicians leading the Labour Party - if you are suggesting that as an agenda - guilty as charged
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jul 20 - 11:04 AM

Jim, How can I put this politely .....................


Can't


Think I'll try FUCK OFF I'm not interested in trying to talk with you. You are a boring, repetitive, narrow minded, bigoted idiot with all the common sense of a yard brush.