BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 12:26 PM

i'd say ukip are just about done in the UK - all reverted to supporting the tory party, who are far more effective at being far=right wreckers. when it comes to the wee far right groups i remember tommy robinson got 2 and a half thousands votes as a north west candidate in the last european election and lost his deposit (i've never seen the other union rep at my work look so pissed off) at the same election majid majid the green mayor of sheffield won a european seat with over 200,000 votes. so there is hope - though not too much in west cumbria, sadly

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 12:49 PM

I can't say that Starmer would have been my choice, he wouldn't.

However he got the job and has to try and steer the Labour party to power. Playing the role of opposition is neither use nor ornament if you want things to change.

By sacking Long-Bailey he was making a statement "I'm in charge" If you wish to see a Labour Government next time round you, me and the rest of us need to back him this early on in his fight to regain power for Labour.

Squabbling amongst yourselves only serves to aid the conservatives.

PS I have no doubt I will be accused of all sorts of things because of my post today.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 01:25 PM

Well what "subject" did you mean, John, when you said they were "shooting their mouths off" if it wasn't antisemitism? You said it was the subject (among others) that precipitated Labour's disastrous defeat. The subject that the two women were "shooting their mouths off" about was the dirty dealings between US police and the Israeli secret service. That is not the antisemitism issue that helped Labour to lose, except in the minds of the duplicitous. In fact, it is not antisemitism at all. By conflating that with antisemitism ("the subject," as you said), you have got into bed with the right of the party and the Board Of Deputies. Game, set and match to them, until the next time... Fair-minded lefties tried for years to defend Corbyn against bogus and hypocritical accusations of his being complicit with alleged antisemites in the party. So now we've accepted that his adversaries have been right all the time and that we can add Rebecca and Maxine to the long list of Labour antisemites, have we? Jim's spot on. There's little point trying to elect one unprincipled git to replace another unprincipled git. Still, four years is a long time in politics. Just don't delude yourself that this kind of move will make Starmer more electable. The left are a key part of Labour and always have been, and this kind of disreputable dealing won't make them go away.

Maybe from now on there'll be a spineless sign up in the shadow cabinet meeting room: "Whatever you do, never mention Israel..."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 01:49 PM

Go along with all of that Steve
I don't believe that the accusations of antisemitism lost Labour the alection; the tragedy is that the term has bee so deliberately misused by those defending Israel that nobody cares any more - the Jewish People are beins blamed for Israel's criminal human rights breaches by all sides - the Arabs talk about 'the Jews' (they always have understandably) genuine Antisemites use Israel's behaviour to attack the Jewish People and Israel claims criticism of their policies and "antisemitic" - in essence, blaming The Jews
The sharp rise in Antisemitism, particularly in the European States that have swung to the right, is the consequence
A half decent Labour Leadership would clarify exactly why these accusations are false; Corbyn's enquiries proved pretty conclusively that they were

This situation is set fair to worsen in the near future after Israel's announcement that plan to annex the illegal settlements is to go ahead from now on
THis is going to galvanise the B.D.S. supporters into action, which will increse attacks on the Lanour Pary
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 03:10 PM

It's with regret that I am cancelling my membership of the Labour party. It is not Just the Becky issue but that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Although I know that it may be a futile gesture, I am sending my subscriptions to the Green party from now on. We need to realise that care of the planet is far more important than who gets the money or who criticises Israel

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 04:48 PM

Well, Dave, it stinks. But I'm staying in the party for the time being. Becky and Angela Rayner (who opposes the sacking, by the way) I saw as a bright future for an honest, leftie party. I still live in hope. Shall there be womanly times, or shall we die?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:03 PM

Starmer may well be another seat warming placeholder leader...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:05 PM

I agree, and I think I hope so, if you see what I mean...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:28 PM

Unless the membership start to show some unity and loyalty to the leader, get over their factionism and divisions, and at least try to look like a party that knows where it’s going and how to get there, it wont make a scrap of difference who that leader is, there will still be a Tory government after the next election and into the foreseeable future after that. The LP will have thrown itself under the Tory Propaganda bus, and the members will have nobody to blame but themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 03:07 AM

Unless the leadership sorts itself out as to whether it is going to be a genuine alternative with alternative policies it will not get and does not deserve loyalty
You have declined to say whether there is evidence of antisemitism in the Labour Party, which leads me to belive that you don't; in which case, you are prepared to accept a dishonestly ruthless leader who is prepared to throw his colleagues and his party's raison d'être to the wolves for the sake of political expediency and career - no different to Johnson's 'Night of the log knives' in the 'Battle of Brexit'
Unity is meaningless and valueless unless it is for a purpose - that purpose was intended to change society for all - not to back up all the shitty injustices that have been heaped on the less-well-off - rising inequality, working people's children's exclusion from higher education, the loss of a voice in the workplace, the transformation of homes into speculative investments
WE have gradually seen the star in Labour's crown, The National Health Service turned into a beurocratic, paper-pushing nightmare carrying a begging-bowl - Labour's career politicians have done little to offer any opposition to this
Instead, the members stood by while Blair committed Britain to decades of oil wars and far too many of its parliamentarians got their fingers burned in taking back-handers and fiddling expenses
Under you right wing - Labour became indistinguishable from its supposed opponents
Now you are demanding Loyalty for someone who has come into leadership quite happy to join those accusing labour of having an "antisemitism problem" by sacking one of his ministers and splitting the parliamentary party
All the support 'Labour out of loyalty and things might change' crap in the world isn't even going to begin to put things right
Yes, Johnson has to be opposed, but Starmer has made it quite clear he isn't going to do it - he is a manipulator and a bully
Labour would have to have suicidal tendencies to accept this behaviour
JIm

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 03:42 AM

Labour would have to have suicidal tendencies to accept this behaviour

Sorry Jim but Starmer was elected by the party membership and is likely to be there until the next election at least. The only available options to accepting his leadership are walking away, splitting the party or moaning about it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:41 AM

The has split the party that elected him and is likely to have driven away a lot of people who rejoined when Corbyn appeared
That's not "moaning" Dave, it's stating a fact
He is more likely to appease Johnson "for the good of the people" than he is to oppose him - that's a strong likelihood
My initial comments on Starmer were patronised (at best) rather than agreed with - he hasn't taken long to live up (down) to my expectations
The first thing, in my opinion, is to discuss (moan if you like) his potential as a leader - not to call for blind loyalty - that will change nothing
The coming period is likely to include a great deal of social unrest - there's been enough of that over the lock-down already - the next will be the job losses, the shortages and the profiteering on everything, from rents to food prices
There's a large backlog of medical treatments that haven't taken place, cancer being among them
The people are not going to be happy bunnies for the forseeable future and some of the more sinister fringe parties are going to be lining up offering their own alternative
The left needs to be there with song, clear and trustworthy leadership - Labour is the logical choice - but not under the present circumstances
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:52 AM

Forget the song - no time for that frippery - should have written "strong"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:53 AM

I agree that blind loyalty will not achieve anything. But neither will discussing or moaning. The only thing that will change the leadership is a leadership election and that is not likely to happen until after the next general election.

The other option I mentioned is literally splitting the party. You say it is already split. It isn't. Although there are factions it is still one Labour party. The only way to get a leftist leader before the next GE is to start a new party of the left. Which will result in a truly split Labour party and ensure the Tories tenure forever.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:56 AM

starmer 'is likely to have driven away a lot of people who rejoined when corbyn appeared' sorry, Jim - 'is likely to' is not a fact, it's your opinion. i rejoined when corbyn appeared, i'm not leaving -and we don't know yet how many people will leave.

nor do we know how many people will support the party now that corbyn has gone. judging by the amount of people on doorsteps who said 'i would vote labour but not for corbyn' there should be a few.

corbyn was a bit slower to get rid of folk who were perceived to be anti-semitic - but he did dump people as well.

maybe starmer is more efficient and more politically astute. we lefties may be angry again - but we are always sulking about some perceived lack of socialist purity.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 05:51 AM

The number of party members under different leaders is completely irrelevant in terms of election success. What matters is the number of non-members who are persuaded to vote Labour In elections. The true measure of success of the party has nothing to do with the number of new members this or that leader attracts, and everything to do with how many MPs it gets elected at the GE. That is the golden number. Starmer knows this.

By drawing away the votes of former Labour voters - many, perhaps most, of them non-members - The Tory Propaganda Machine ensured victory at the last GE. In order to ensure that doesn’t happen again, Labour has to suppress and silence the TPM, and one of the best ways to do that is to act positively and swiftly to remove the things that the TPM could/would try to use against Labour in the lead up to an election. Starmer knows this.

Whether people like it or not, the ‘Anti-semitism’ trope was used very successfully by the Tories and their stooges in the Labour Party at the 2019 GE. They will use it again, given the slightest opportunity, at the next GE. The only way for the LP to combat and nullify that is by taking immediate, strong action whenever anyone does anything that the TPM could latch on to and use, rightly or wrongly, to persuade the electorate that ‘anti-semitism is alive and well in the Labour Party’. Starmer knows this.

No MP is bigger than the Party. As with a business, the Party’s management will have set rules regarding MPs’ behaviour, and it’s incumbent on MPs to stick to the rules, otherwise their worth to the party in achieving its top priority - election to government - is reduced. It’s called discipline. Starmer knows this.

Starmer knows these things. I’m surprised that others don’t.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:00 AM

'is likely to' is not a fact, it's your opinion.
I d=sid he was likely to - which is a fact - I didn't say he would
If the caninet is at each others throats
Unless you examined constituency figures, your doorstep comments came from the ant-Corbyn media - the one who launched an anti-Corbyn hate campaign from the minute he put in an appearance - many non active voters are bound to have ben influenced by that
Corbyn immediately launched an enquiry into anti-semitism accusations and published the results
If you believe there to be a serious problem - what is it ?
Ii is now as impossible to distinguish antisemitism from criticism of Israel as it is to criticise that terrororist state without being called "anti-Semitic"
Perceiving someone to be something is a million miles from proving they were
Some of the clearest statements on Labour antisemitism have come from Jewish People in the labour party who claim that it has been trumped up by supporters of Israel and right wingers wishing to get rid of Corbyn
Articles like the one reproduced below were once easy to find on the web - now they have all but disappeared
The Jewish voices in support of Corbyn have been censored almost out of existence   
Wonder if anybody has a comment on it here or are they all to eager to back this right-wing thug
Jim

As a Jewish Labour member, I'm sick of anti-Semitism being used as a political weapon against Jeremy Corbyn
Miccael Segalov IThe Indeendant, 26 September 2016

For years now I’ve travelled across the UK to report from far-right, fascist and neo-Nazi rallies. I’ve seen the real threat that faces Jews in the country, those who wear swastikas as badges of honour. Where was your concern for my community then?
It’s become an all too regular occurrence, waking up to headlines reporting that anti-Semitism in the Labour party is now an endemic problem, and that bad feeling against Jewish people in the party is on an upward trajectory.
As a Jewish Labour Party member, they are stories that should have me alarmed. I know from experience just how dangerous anti-Semitism can really be: vast swathes of my ancestors were lost to the murderous hands of the Nazis, and observant Jewish friends of mine have been harassed and attacked on British streets. I’ve read the slurs, faced the trolls, had neo-Nazis shout abuse in my face.
And yet it’s not just anger against bigots that hits as I scan story after story, but frustration towards those trying to use an all too real threat facing my community for their own political gain. Since Corbyn’s election as Labour leader, unsupportive MPs, campaigning groups and journalists have been desperate to paint him and the movement who support him as anti-Semitic fanatics, despite knowing it’s really not the case.
I could tell you about my own experiences, how I’ve never experienced or witnessed anti-Semitism inside the party – but that’s just what I’ve seen, non-Jewish defenders of my religion will claim. My experiences, and those of countless other Corbyn-supporting Jewish members who I’ve spoken to, aren’t reflective of what’s really going on, apparently.
Just a few months ago, I found myself sat in the Channel 4 News studio, tasked with discussing anti-Semitism under Corbyn. Sat opposite me was John Woodcock MP, desperate to tell me it’s the “hard-left” who are “associated [with] Soviet Russia” with anti-Semitic views infiltrating the party who were responsible for stirring up hatred.
Now, we only need look at the most high-profile of cases to see that anti-Semitism is by no means a product of Corbyn’s supporters. Naz Shah, MP for Bradford West, was rightly suspended for sharing anti-Semitic posts on Facebook, not a Corbynite but a backer of Yvette Cooper in the last leadership election. Ken Livingstone, similarly sanctioned for his remarks about Hitler, has been a party grandee for decades. An insurgent? I think not.
Woodcock pointed me towards “a rise in anti-Semitic incidents” within the party, without having a single statistic or figure to back it up. It’s an answer I hear time and time again, and for those of us – Jewish or otherwise – committed to fighting anti-Semitism, enough is enough.
It’s tiring and it’s frustrating, but moreover it’s frankly dangerous.
For years now I’ve travelled across the UK to report from far-right, fascist and neo-Nazi rallies, and the counter-demonstrations that take place alongside. I’ve seen the real threat that faces Jews in the country, those who profess hatred for Jews and our religion, who wear swastikas as badges of honour, who’ll salute like a Nazi in front of your face. Where was your concern for my community then?
It’s not just the distinct absence of those MPs in Labour who now claim to be at the forefront of the fight against anti-Jewish prejudice that’s striking, but the presence of those they now claim to be British Jewry’s biggest threat.
It’s the left, and Corbyn’s supporters, who’ve put their bodies on the line time and time again to protect us from these racist organisations.
Top ArticlesThe time has come todecolonise botanicalgardens like Kew
That’s why these cries of anti-Semitism make a mockery of a real and present danger. Corbyn’s commitment to fighting discrimination and prejudice has een well documented for decades. His supporters are those who’ve stood alongside him. Accusing these people now of peddling prejudice is nothing but political point-scoring at its worst. It undermines real hatred, and waters down the impact of calling out anti-Semitism when it rears its ugly head.
I’m not saying Labour members haven’t experienced anti-Semitism inside the Labour Party, and of course, a progressive movement like Labour should hold itself to higher standards than other organisations. Those few who blindly label all incidents of anti-Semitism as anti-Corbyn slander and restrictions on critiquing Israel need to listen to the voices of victims and let conversations about Judaism and Israel be led by Jewish members: we are here and we know how to speak.
This isn’t to say I don’t value the concern, but I want to make a few things perfectly clear. Anti-Semitism is not a problem particular to Labour; using the words “Judaism” and “Israel” interchangeably is just as (if not more) common on the right as on the left.
Oppression, discrimination and Jewish identity are complex; the relationship between our religion and the state of Israel is constantly debated; disagreements will happen inside our community. Let us lead these discussions. Don’t quickly take sides simply to advance your faction, angle or personal interests.
And if you’re truly concerned about fighting racism and anti-Semitism, I look forward to seeing you stand alongside us in meetings and on the streets.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:03 AM

We sould be voting for policies Baccie - not for "my paryy right ot wrong"
No - democracy says the party members should shouid the policies - what you are describing is Populism - winning votes using every trick in the book - like wot gave us Brexit
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:30 AM

The antisemitism slur was perpetuated largely by people within the Labour Party. The pro-Israel lobby had their stooges in the party, and the Tories only had to provide the occasional nudge to keep the smears in the spotlight. I could name Ruth Smeeth and John Mann, who both deliberately orchestrated very public incidents, and the likes of Margaret Hodge, Louise Ellman and the long-term idiot Frank Field. These and others never missed an opportunity to loudly and publicly criticise Corbyn's approach to the supposed problem. They were like a walking Labour suicide note, but they didn't care: getting smashed by the Tories in an election was, to them, a small price to pay for evicting Corbynism from the party. All these people were on the right of the party. I'm sick of the blame for splits being put on the left. Left-wingers in the party are far more likely to be campaigners against racism and for equality. Ken Livingstone, for example, about as un-antisemitic as can be, hounded out by the likes of the above. The lefties in Labour don't cause splits. Splits are caused by the right trying to shame the left into silence. "We'll never be electable with you around, and we're going to keep shouting that from the rooftops..." . As I said, the left has always been a part of Labour and always will be. It's those on the right, such as the above and the Blairs and the Kinnocks of this world, who can't stomach that and who constantly try to mould the party in their own right-wing image. We've just seen Starmer perpetuating that tradition. If he thinks that it'll win him elections, he's deluded.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:31 AM

Labour had plenty of ‘policies’ at the last election - in fact they had too many - but they lost by the biggest landslide in living memory, defeated by ‘Populism’, a cartoon-character Tory leader, a couple of three-word slogans, and a Propaganda assault,

A significant number of voters aren’t interested in reading and comparing manifestos, they fall for the cartoon-character, the slogans, and the propaganda - the 2019 is unarguable evidence of this fact.

A party can’t effect its policies unless it wins the GE.

To win the GE next time, the Populism of the Tories needs to be nullified.

Starmer knows this. You clearly don’t.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:41 AM

"To win the GE next time, the Populism of the Tories needs to be nullified."

What, by shutting up the lefties and leaving the Tory-lite establishment right of the party to it? I keep trying to tell you: it won't work.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:52 AM

Baccie
Can you answer a simple question - you have refused to answer all the others
You are demanding loyalty for the Labour party

How loyal to it is to that party to allow its leader to smear the proud history of fighting antisemitism ?
Starmer has gone so far as to split the party, to appease all those 'Friends of Israel' and the right wing Blairites in order to gain poitical power
As far as I am concerned, it is par for the course that careere politicians lie Starmer sell pot party and fellow party members to climb the greasy pole
What upsets me most is the decent, intelligent people who claim to be 'progressives' and fair mined, who break their necks to get in line behind such behaviour

I ask again - what evidence is there that this woman is antisemitic, as Starmer claimed she was ?
Does anybody believe she was wrong when she supported Peake's statement ?
If the answer to either of these is negative, why is anybody backing such a leader - is that the behaviour you want presented as typical of your party ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 07:08 AM

In my view Baccy is right. I see no point arguing with you, Jim and Steve, because we all know each other's positions and nothing feeds the Tory Propaganda Machine more effectively than arguing amongst ourselves, thereby ignoring Robert Jenrick's shady dealing and the rest.

Do we really want to copy the Life of Brian?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 07:25 AM

I repeat my earlier post, which Jim ignores because he wants to have a row with anybody who will take his bait - even a friend who has defended him many times over the years, and which Steve ignores because of his, admittedly admirable, loyalty to his pin-up girl...

“Unless the membership start to show some unity and loyalty to the leader, get over their factionism and divisions, and at least try to look like a party that knows where it’s going and how to get there, it wont make a scrap of difference who that leader is, there will still be a Tory government after the next election and into the foreseeable future after that. The LP will have thrown itself under the Tory Propaganda bus, and the members will have nobody to blame but themselves.“

And that, as they say, is it. Fall out amongst yourselves, I’m not biting.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 08:30 AM

So you want the right just to repeat your matra without responding to the attacks this man has made on Party members and the reputation of the Labour party ?
This man is a right wing appeaser - there is no reason why he wont continue to sell his pary out to stay the king of tha castle
You appear to care less for the Labour Party than he does

You seem that the opinion of the Tory Party is worth more than that of the members
Please answer one single question
Does Labour have a serious problem with antisemitsm ?
Then at least we'll know where we stand on that one
As far as I'm concerned, if it does it has no right to clain to be what it does and not worth supporting as a party
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 08:30 AM

chris williamson and clive lewis were sacked by corbyn while our rightish mp was serving in the shadow cabinet.   it is always a tricky road between ignoring and responding to the relentless media attacks. maybe starmer will manage that better than corbyn but it's still going to happen. probably because the media will more easily tolerate a more centrist figure - mind you, there is his donkey sanctuary shame. eric heffer said years ago in the benn/kinnock battles that any bird needs 2 wings to fly....we need to be appreciate the JPF/PFJ more. in workington when we had the latest meeting to nominate the next leader/depute someone said that 'of course, in scotland the enemy is the SNP'

no - the enemy is the same as ever. we have to keep focussed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 08:58 AM

"...and which Steve ignores because of his, admittedly admirable, loyalty to his pin-up girl..."

So you back out of discussion with a final Johnsonite sexist barb. Nice! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 09:18 AM

Too many maybes there WM - Labour has had too many "maybe he'll be ok when he's on office's and not one of them have come up to the mark
There has never been a better time to offer an alternative to what has happened in the past - even without the present crisis, people seem to have had just about enough
The increasing cynical mistrust of politicians is not something that Labour can afford to be part of any more if it is to survive
It would be good if you answered my question WM
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 10:06 AM

"Robert Jenrick"
Sorry - I don't see the point in that reference at all
Jendrick it a 'Friend o Israel' with all that implies and is a rabid Tory
What on earth has that got to do with the Labour Party Leadership
We do know that the Tory Part has a far more serious Antisemitism problem than any other part - real antisemitism - we also know that on two occasions leading Muslim figures have accused the Conservatives of having a serious Islamophobic problem, yet our "hard Labour leader joins in the right wing chorus of Labour being antisemitic
What exactly are you saying?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 12:10 PM

Jendrick it a 'Friend o Israel' with all that implies and is a rabid Tory
What on earth has that got to do with the Labour Party Leadership?

Nothing, which is precisely the point. While we argue about leadership, we ignore things that the Tories are up to.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 01:22 PM

Sunday tea time reality check,

Life tends to be unfair, and will get increasingly unfairer the longer the tories stay in in power..

Politics is a dirty business, and Starmer may be a bit c@ntish,
but he's not a completely evil c@nt like politicians further right than he is...

The lesser of two evils will have to do until perfect utopia gets granted building permission..

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 02:29 PM

i've never thought that labour has a problem with anti-semitism. i've never encountered it in the party or at any union meeting i've been at. i'm confident that if anyone had come out with that shit they would have been called out and disciplined. i'm also sure that it is a confected argument that was prosecuted by tory jewish organisations and their duplicitous stooges in the labour party - i'm angry that corbyn never had the balls to sack the likes of john mann and margaret hodge but did sack livingstone, williamson and lewis.

the most recent thing about rebcca l-b i feel was unnecessary, badly handled and just wrong. i like her and feel she represents a vital part of our party and what's more, is clearly a good person.

[t's wrong what keir starmer did but i can understand the politics. if you look at the many crimes of the tory party - the most obvious and relevant being windrush - it's appalling that they are where they are. they could kill all the grannies, impoverish all our young people and arse-lick trump to charleston and back and at least a third of the forelock-tugging english voters are going to support them.

i have never been a lover of the labour party or its broad church. i have supported and been a member of other parties before. but a constant has been that i hate the tories and all the greed, stupidity and bigotry that they represent.

so this is where we are - in the shite. sadly, progressive people have to play their horrible game or we risk leaving our country to economic and cultural disaster. the best we can hope for at the moment is a decent government with general liberal and competent principles. we ain't going to get the last chance for a socialist government in my lifetime that i hoped for as i supported jeremy corbyn in recent years.

i'll support the labour party for now despite reservations- i'm done with stomping off in principled huffs - times are desperate, we have to be in power.

(by the way, jim, i hope that was the question you wanted me to answer! good luck, pete)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 02:51 PM

”...times are desperate, we have to be in power.”

Exactly what I’ve been saying. Sadly **some** people have been too busy twisting my words and trying to set traps for me to even listen. Fuck ‘em.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 03:30 PM

BMW - I predicted banning right wing antagonists from BS
would most likely lead to increased petty infighting between us mudcat lefty/liberal mates...

[pfr - trying hard not to be a smug "I told you so" pillock...]

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 03:37 PM

"(by the way, jim, i hope that was the question you wanted me to answer! good luck, pete"
It was - thanks - I don't think there' a chsm between us

"people have been too busy twisting my words"
Pretty dificult when you reply to nothing

"While we argue about leadership,"
I don't think anybody does that - most of this is about how to get a leader who will do something about it
Israel has been part of British politics at least since they set out to scupper a Labour leader who stood firm on their behaviour by smearing him and his Party
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 03:53 PM

"Israel has been part of British politics at least since they set out to scupper a Labour leader
who stood firm on their behaviour by smearing him and his Party"

Jim - Israel, trump's Americans, and whichever other misc Nations and billionaires
fearing Britain gaining a Labour Govt,
will forever continue doing that in increasingly corrupt and nastier ways...

We've got to wise up and swallow the taste of being realist pragmatists in this perpetual fight these evil opponents..

Remeber - the simple objective..

Get tories out, keep 'em out, and avoid stupid divisive infighting
allowing the far right to win Govt instead of us...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:01 PM

”BMW - I predicted banning right wing antagonists from BS
would most likely lead to increased petty infighting between us mudcat lefty/liberal mates...

[pfr - trying hard not to be a smug "I told you so" pillock...]”

I’m not fighting with anyone, pfr. I’ve made my point several times, I’ve carefully avoided others’ word-twisting, baiting, and traps - now that’s me done. You know my motto - I’ve repeated it often enough...

BTW - I’m BackWoodsMan, not a German car! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:42 PM

WMB - bollocks.. and i always try to check to make sure I don't get your initials in the wrong order...

..my only excuse is I was distracted by dancing along to Cliff singing "Dynamite"...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:46 PM

MWB - btw.. I know your're not one of the mudcatters fighting for the sake of it..

wanna make something of it.. outside now.. errmm.. can someone hold my spectacles.. and my pint.. and pork scratchings...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 05:04 PM

Nah mate, I gave over smacking blokes up when I reached 60... :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 05:58 PM

Nobody's trying to twist your words, John. Your words do suggest that principle should be ditched and that "electability" should trump everything else. Well I think that four more years is going to be a very long time in politics, and that in the meantime we have to stick to our principles. One of those principles is that we don't accept for a single second false accusations of antisemitism against good-hearted, proper, principled socialists. Any socialists, not just my pin-up girl. Christ on a bloody bike, John, for saying that. Starmer has just ditched that. It won't work, the right-wing vultures in Labour and the Board Of Deputies will continue to circle and we will never hear an end to this until they have made Keir their puppet. He's no Blair, he's no Attlee and he isn't even a Wilson. He's a bloody lightweight and you know it. He must spend half of his days picking splinters out of his buttocks with tweezers after all that pusillanimous fence-sitting. We are truly in trouble, and Sir K has just played into the hands of the bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:27 PM

Is there not a single leftist Jewish Labour MP,
tough enough to fight back hard against the false accusations of right wing Jewish groups,
who could have stood as a candidate for leader, or deputy...???

Now if I was playing "Fantasy Political Party Leaders"..

That's who I'd play the game with...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:49 PM

The tragedy is, pfr, that we have to look for a Jewish MP to do it. We shouldn't need that. We should need honest, straightforward, principled and clear-sighted people of any persuasion/religion/ethnicity/whatever to speak up honestly, clearly and fearlessly, and to show the hypocrites that we know what they're up to and that we're not wearing it. Now a party that espoused that is a party I could cheerfully vote for, instead of constantly having to decide who's the best of a bad lot...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 02:53 AM

Pragmatism is the last thing The Labour Party wants now - any gains Labour has ever made have been by standing firm on policies and principle - from 1949 to Corbyn coming in with proposals of a return to principle
The media and establishment have always known this - just look who and what they picked out for their special treatment - the things and paeople who might actually change things for the better - nationalisation, social housing, the N.H.S., effectinve industial action like the Miners, steelwrkers and dustmans' strikes
It was the thinkers and principled dreamers in the Labour Party who were given special treatment - a (sort of) Socialist Government after the War, Foot, Benn - and most recently Corbyn - all stepped out of the Parliamentary greenhouse articulately argued to change things Corbyn was inexperienced and finding his feet, but the other tw were brilliant and inspirational public speakers - I heard Foot and Benn speak several times
I shared a platform with a feller named Fenner Brockway once - I din't agree with everything he stood for but Jesus - what a speaker

Parliament has become a meaningless farce - has anybody watched it ?
A tiny percentage of elected representatives shouting abuse at each other and voting for what they intended to in the first place
There are so few of them bothering to turn up that, since being televised, they have to 'doughnut' to make them look more than there are
How much longer are people going to put up with that ?

The only people worth voting for are those who are going to say something principled and worthwhile, and act on it
Is someone who goes with the media flow, sacks ministers who gets in his way by telling the truth and is prepared to split his pary and degrade everything it was created for the leader to do that ?
You decide - I have
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 03:47 AM

The Labour party has no more problem with antisemitism than the rest of the country. As the UK in general has a number of people who are antisemitic, racist, sexist etc. then a number of those must also support Labour and even be members of the Labour party. It is to be hoped that party members are, in general, less likely to be 'ist' than some others but saying that there is no antisemitism at all in the Labour party would be silly. The leadership, both Starmer and Corbyn, has failed to address any real antisemitism and danced to the tune of populist propaganda. I am very disappointed and disillusioned.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 04:45 AM

Corbyn ordered an enquiry at the behest of Jewish members of the party, which was the only thing he could have done - that enquiry found no serious problem
To have ignored demands for an enquiry would have played into the hands of the media and the right wing of the Party
Starmer carried out no enquiry, but has sacked a minister for criticising Israel - that is not only divisive, as has been shown, but it is tantamount to agreeing that criticising Israel is antisemitic - which is, by definition, antisemitic

Tenth and final clause from The Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
If it is antisemitic to criticise Israel, it follows that claiming criticising Israel is antisemitic implies that The Jewish People are responsible for Israel's actions - simples

Starmer's action is antisemitic
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 10:34 AM

Meanwhile ...

At the lunchtime press conference today there were signs that the Brexit talk deadline is now the end of September. This sounds likely to me: the EU was saying any deal needed to be agreed in principle by October, to give enough time for the countries and EU Parliament to sign it off - and we have of course had threats not to do so if the individual countries did not agree. We have also been told the Brexit negotiator David Frost will move from that role to national security adviser when Mark Sedwill departs in September.

Of course, that only gives three months to get all the deal/no-deal preparation in place, for government and business, but that would be typical of the level of preparation we expect from this government.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 11:14 AM

Has boris used the classic "Sorry,my dog ate my homework" excuse yet,
for missing brexit dreadlines*...


[*Dreadline:

Demands a finishing date (that might be arbitrary)
Puts too much pressure in a timeline that’s too small
No one’s on the same page thanks to weird scheduling changes and goalpost shifting
Creates an environment of panic and breaks down communication...

(quote nicked off the internet, but forgot where from)]

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 01:08 PM

Well, there have been claims about not receiving, or overlooking, some E-Mail or other, but perhaps by now they've all been testing their eyesight in the approved manner.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 06:09 PM

I absolutely don't do conspiracy theory...but this Leicester malarkey...we've all let our hair down a bit too much...crowded Bournemouth beaches full of turds...social distancing gone to the wall...so let's put the shits up us all using Leicester as an example...

(No, Stephen. It can't be right so stop that NOW...)