BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 08:04 AM

" but to get the economy moving"
Is that confirmation that houses are no longer homes but adjuncts of "the economy" Nigel
As things have stood for a long time, the only people to actually "benefit" from a healthy economy are the well of - mainly the invesstos - all the rest of us have ever been able to hope for is to earn enough to feed our families and pay our mortgages; even "paying the rent" has become a thing of the past", since Mad Maggie all but destroyed rented property.

The fact that the sale and purchase of houses is part of the economy does not mean that they are "no longer homes". That is a totally false argument.
Also the property market is obviously part of the economy. The employment of builders and tradesmen, the sale of household appliances and much else besides requires the availability of new property, which also (often) requires others to be willing and able to move home.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 09:05 AM

is part of the economy does not mean that they are "no longer homes".
Yes it does Nigel
Thatcher sold them to Britain as investments - I saw the results close at hand as people were forced to walk away from what were once their homes after having been forced to take on Mortgages they could not afford
The rental market all bus disappeared overnight
Countries lik The Soviet Union, despite all their faults, guaranteed a toof over the people's heads as part of the constitution
The post war Labour Government created a social homes system equal to none - opposed and derided by your Tories - and eventually destroyed by you
Whatever lip service is paid to "homes" - once you hang an affordable price tag on them, they become something else
Go tell me what the minimum wage is for someone aspiring to live (or continue living) in the South East of England
Like higher education - now way out of reach of the less well off - even when working
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 09:42 AM

I am not aware that people were forced to buy their council houses.

The state rented market has definitely fallen but then there has probably been an increase in the private rental market.

What nobody can dispute is that there is a shortage of housing in the country at the moment. I cannot see it being dealt with unless you have the state/councils building more properties. That seems unlikely though.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 10:14 AM

"I am not aware that people were forced to buy their council houses."
It started out as an 'opt into scheme' but the gradual withdrawing of Government financial support and other pressures eventually led that to being edged out of existence

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 10:16 AM

The problems are that when people bought their council homes, local autrities wer enot allow to build a new home to replace. Secondly, the disparity between private and social rents can be massive. For insyance in a hpiusing estate near where I live, in the same floor in the same block - one falt remained a council flat, the other was purchased under right to buy then sold on to be part of the private rented housing portfolio - idetical flats the rant for one less than £500, the rent for the other about £1,500 per month. Thirdly, housing , particularly higher value are often boought, not to be lived in but to be sold on as investments, or lower costs done up to put them outside the reach of first time buyers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 10:25 AM

SORRY - PREM EJAC
In !772, 48% of Britaain's population lived in Council Houses, by 2008, that had shrunk to less than 8%

THIS BEING THE RESULT
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 02:19 PM

Thatcher encouraged factory workers on our council estate
to become home owners.
Then within a couple of years the factory went bust,
putting them out of work,
unable to pay their mortgages.

Those ex council homes would have become easy pickings at auction,
for vulture investors/landlords waiting for this inevitable outcome...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 07:14 AM

Sir Keir Starmer, the Leader of the Labour Party, calmly beating the Prime Minister about the head in PMQs right now on BBC Politics Live. He makes a complete fool of Johnson every week in PMQs, and Johnson’s only response is to lose his rag and try to blame Labour for the failures of his own policies and actions.

A joy to watch.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 04:17 AM

It's interesting that, despite the whole mass over obviosus cock-ups and contradictions on how the pandemic is being handled - particularly with a push from the top for people to get back to work "for the sake of the economy" while at the same time, discussing 'locking-in' parts of Lancashire, there is no actual move to stop this appalling Government doing the damage they are doing
They are being allowed to do (or not do) they are doing totally unhindered - by Starmer, or anybody else - Starmer and Johnson are two sides of the same coin
Johnson castigates people who break lock-down rules while, at the same time, refusing to discipline Dom the Div for blatantly riding rough-shod over them
Starmer sacks a minister for so-called antisemitism, and refuses to do anything about a similar claim because the perp is a mate and supporter
These people have lost any right to trust and respect their elevated position has given them
Time to call in the Pest Control people, it would appear - they all need replacing with leaders with principles before they bring Britain further to its knees than it already is
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 06:16 AM

while it's plane to all of us and to all sentient beings that the government is greedy, reckles, feckless and evil with literally no redeeming features. we have to accept that there is a large portion of people in england who just don't see it that way. last week i heard 3 people agree that johnson has done pretty well since he has a lot on his plate with being ill, new baby ....unprecendented this but same for everywhere that........

But what about all the extra deaths? what about scotland and a more sensible approach.....but my heart wasn't in it - fuckem! i'm sick of having to have more or less the same argument every day - i really don't want to give up on my fellow citizens...but

i had a look in the window at my local the other day - despite the right intentions on notices on the door there are still folks hanging around the bar and no sign of social distancing. i'll be sticking to relatively quiet beer gardens for now. much as i long for a pint of Jarl.

all the above are people that have to vote labour. it's a dirty game to get the approval of the shitty papers but we have to turn it around. on doorsteps at election i have heard 'not voting for corbyn' too many times and we have a lost a good mp to a far right tory thug - our new Workington man.

call me a sell-out if you like. i want rid of the tories above all else in politics. with corbyn i was hoping for a decent socialist government for a few years before i die. now i've downgraded my hopes and would be happy - for now at least- with a victory followed by a decent sensible government (answerable to conference and a left executive - but don't tell anyone)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 07:47 AM

If you want to know why Starmer is the wrong man, read Lynsey Hanley's article in the Guardian today, "Labour will win by changing minds - not pandering to right-wing voters." Starmer is compared with Roy Jenkins, hardly a leftie, who refused to pander to public opinion and right-wing voters (as Starmer tries to do, and don't even mention pandering to the pro-Israel lobby) and, as Home Secretary, pushed through reforms that went AGAINST public opinion, abolishing the death penalty, decriminalising homosexuality, making divorce easier and making abortion legal.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 08:10 AM

i'm confident a new labour government will address the state of our public services, will have a serious attempt at inequalities and looking after the more vulnerable - and many other policies that would be popular. i suppose the current idea is to take on the (fantasy) anti-semitism issue to try to differentiate from corbyn. totally unfair though the attacks on JC were - they did bring him down. if the worst they can throw at KS is a donkey field and a load of angry, disaffected trots then he should get an easier ride. as i said it's a dirty game - but i really do value our public services - human rights and our relationships with our allies in europe and beyond.

pete (please Joe, change my name again as requested)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 08:25 AM

What makes you confident about any of that WM ?
Corbyn came in with a new broom and the Govenment and media raised this and threw everything they could at him in order to make sure his ideas weren't accepted - he was "The Spectre that haunted Britain and became 'The enemy of the State'
Of coutse those ideas were "unpopular" - we've had decades of Labour politicians who sold out their principles in order to gain a degree of popularity
Given the racism statistics in Britain, I would not hesitate to suggest that any political party which adopts a "send 'em back to where they came from" policy would shoot up the popularity poll tomorrow
If being popular is all that matters, why not adopt that approach ?
That would be populist opportunism - that's why not
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 09:09 AM

I get that some people on the thread do not think much of Starmer. Fine. I haven't posted much during this two minute hate session, but there is a heck of a lot of other UK politics of relevance. I probably won't post here again until the introspection is over and we start talking about some of those.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 11:02 AM

Surely the behaviour of the leader of the Labour Party is worth more than that Mac - he is either guilty of what he has been accused of here or he is innocent
Some of us have been long time supporters of the Party to describe criticism of the leader as "a hate session" removes our right as supporters to criticise the party we support
I thought that sort of thing was the domain of the Tory Party
If he 'didn't do it' - why not join those who support that idea
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 11:42 AM

Jim - Having said all that.. and there is very much we agree on..

I'd rather concentrate at least 90% of my limited time and energy
directly fighting back against the tories and even further right..

Rather than wasting it on distracting self defeating Labour in-fighting...

Starmer is presently the latest party leader,
and that's who we have to hang our hopes on for the time being..

Like it or lump it...

The primary goal must be kicking the tories out,
without blunderingly helping the far right replace them in Govt...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 12:29 PM

Wasting your time, pfr - none are so blind as they who refuse point-blank to see.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 12:32 PM

i'd agree with that pfr. clearly, many of us have spent a lifetime fighting the tories with principles and activism. we have lost every time and now is worse than ever. when you look at the state we are in with this government i'm afraid some of our principles look a bit self indulgent and fiddling while england burns.

Jim - of course i don't know for certain that labour would be able to address some of the problems of public services and low pay. but you wouldn't need full-on socialism to do this . when we get power the country is likely to be in a terrible state. any sensible government would have to try to tackle thse problems. even blair put loads of money into health, social care and education. some of that was ppi - a terrible error - i don't think we'll be making that mistake again. but we can never even begin to think about progres unless we win an election....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 03:24 PM

There is no evidence that Labou under Stamer will fight the Tories - they never really have since they sung to the right - when did they
When did they ever put right the damage the previous Governments had done - every mistake they made as put down to the last lot remember however many "years of Tory misrule"
No socialisty policies - no significant chamnges, the Wilson Govenment was among the first to attack the Trades Unions
Unemployment has risen under both Labour and Tory governments, industries like shipping, coal, and steel dwindled to nothing due to lack of investment from Labour and Tory Governments - in essence, there are no distinguishing features between Right-Wing Labour and Tory policies - the only difference is that the Tories are better at Toryism
Right wing Labour is third rate Torysism - If you want Tory policies, vote Tory, if you want Tory Policy in velvet gloves vote Lin Dem
Corbyn offer a return to principles - so fart this feller has offered double standards and ministers being sacked for telling the truth (unless you are one of his mates)
If you want to fought - fight for decent policies and leadership within your own party
For all his good debating Stamer will make no difference - what happens on the floor of the house no longer concerns the people of Britain, who regard parliamentary politicians as a sick joke not to be trusted - who gives a toss what happens in The House nowadays - honestly !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 03:40 PM

ok, jim.what is your plan for getting rid of the tories?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 03:41 PM

Jim - step back in the real world for a few seconds..

Do you want us here in Britain to suffer many more years of tory misgovernment,
or would you like to hand the keys of no 10 to ukip,
[or whatever name they next rebrand themselves...???]...?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:40 AM

"Do you want us here in Britain to suffer many more years of Tory misgovernment,"
That's a fairly meaningless slogan PFR and one I have become rather tired of
To blame one Party for the continuing deterioration of a situation that has taken place under the jurisdiction of all parties is to miss the point big-time
I listed the losses under both Labour and Tory administrations, did they or did they not happen, and were or were not all the Parties involved ?
I believe they were - they happened, and will continue to happen because all parties, whatever their nuances of difference in tactics, share the same objective - to preserve the status quo

The Labour Party was set up with 'a calling' - to change society for the betterment of all
Gradually, its policies have become indistinguishable from the rest of those running in the Parliamentary rat-race
In a way, Blair did us all a favour by ending the pretence and formalising the similarities with his 'New Labour' - that should have set enough alarm bells off enough to take action
Then we had the Bumbling Brown fiasco

Accusations of 'leftism' from some sections of the Party are indicative of how far off the path Labour has wandered from its raison d'être - using the reason that Labour was set up in the first place as an insult!!!
In doing this, those Party members have lined themselves up with the Tories, Murdoch's bum-wipe press - and all those trolls who have come to forums like this using 'Leftie' as an epithet
I look on being a "leftie" with pride - a sign of humanity and fairness - those who believe being left is in some way wrong is not only backing the wrong horse - they've come to a different horse-race

Corbyn was an other unknown - a newbie learning the trade of Parliamentary Politics, yet she shook the system by it's very roots over the short period he was in the limelight
He attracted the hatred and fear of the establishment and their toadies in a way no other Party Leader ever has - even to the point of forcing right-wing regimes abroad to begin to interfere in British politics - that alone has to be a sign that something needs to change

You all know what is likely to happen to the British people when the pandemic ends and Brexit begins to kick in - already The Tories are beginning to join the Trumpite Quadrille in making the lesser well of pay for wiping up the mess
Are you really happy to watch this taking place with yet another right-wing status quo-er at Labour's helm - one who has already shown his double-standards, his lack of loyalty to his collegues and his lack of socialist principles?
Yeah - well !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:58 AM

'do you want us here in britain to suffer many more years of tory government' is a meaningless PR slogan'

so, jim, the plan is 'something has to change'

hmmm....the worst thing we could do on this thread is to indulge in pointless - 'who is more left than who' squabbles - PFJ/JPF. not because it matters what happens here but because it reduces the point and the purpose of our discussion.

we can all agree we are (mostly) on the left and we are all in the shit. what is the best way out? (by the waay i'm not even sure if the terms right or left have much relevance anymore (how about wreckers/progressives?))

we have to get rid of the tories. as ever - it's idealism v pragmatism. i'm once a trot and still a trot but absolutely sick of losing . however, me sticking to those ideas will do nothing to get help to the most vulnerable.( nor will it help to restore rights to our Scottish children in Italy and Estonia)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:12 AM

Jim - come on, you know fully well that any Labour Govt has never been as evil
as the tories would have been in their place...

You also know socialism does not stand a hope in hell anymore,
in this new age of instant worldwide right wing internet propaganda.

They hold the power and wealth that counts.. we don't, and probably never will.

So yes, any lefty with any sense will have to swallow bitter compromise
to try to kick the tories out for a few years every couple of decades,
if we can.....

Lesser of two evils will always have to suffice,
and is at least more realistically achievable than dogmatic socialist utopia...

Back in the 1970s Citizen Smith was a comic stereotype revolutionary both left and right could have a chuckle at.

Now most British voters would want to troll him to death with internet hatred...

That's the present day reality that Starmer is facing up to..
.. and for all his faults, do you seriously suggest he will be worse for our living standards and future,
than the tories or ukip...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:23 AM

My point about Starmer is that he's the same-old and that he can't and won't beat the Tories in a month of Sundays. We need a party that offers real change and gives the country a real alternative. Tell me where you see that coming from with Starmer, because I don't see it. He's a panderer and that will not give a reason for the electorate to vote for change. The bumwipe press saw Corbyn as a real threat after the 2017 election and thereafter did the business on him. One massive thing that Blair got right was to get Murdoch on his side. A dirty business that went a long way to keep him in power. A string of feckless Tory leaders helped, but his trump card was that he had charisma. We have to suck all that up and learn from history. Starmer has all the attributes of a loser so far.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:38 AM

I was hoping Corbyn would be in place long enough to mentor a younger successor
with his principles,
but none of his historic baggage - which the tory media would exploit
to discredit him.

Unfortunately Corbyn got pushed prematurely into an election...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:47 AM

I've forgotten if Miliband was any use,
or if he would have stood with, or stood up to, the antisemitism false accusers...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 07:23 AM

The reality of the situation is quite simple.

Whichever leader Labour puts forward he or she will be vilified by the media, they will be torn apart as Corbyn was.

The merely fact that many of us here thought Corbyn to be a decent man did not get him into power. Nor will it ever do so.

So, the question has to be how do we get a Labour leader into power.

Unfortunately that mean electing someone like Blair to the leadership. We may not like it but unless we do we face spending decades as opposition.

That is the reality.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 07:23 AM

I have never mentioned evil why compare yourself to the worst
Who says socialiam doesn't stand a chance - not me ?
Something positive has to replace what we have - why not a fair distribution of the world's benefits and rights - is that really too much to ask ?
I don't speak for other people - I have no idea what they would or would not stand for and it would be arrogant of me to claim otherwise
All you can do is argue your case
Despite claims to the contrary, socialism has never really been tried - aimed for, yes, but never achieved
For all the faults of those who tried it, it achieved comparative miracles over comparatively short periods - backward peasant nations into world contenders, in some cases
The willing sacrifices of the people of the Soviet Union show fairly clearly that those who lived there were, up to a point, prepared to bite the bullet to make their lives better

"Milliband"
It really is time we moved from speculating on personalities - most of these leaders have proved to have clay feet
It's long-term objectives rat have to count if the world is to survive now
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 10:00 AM

"Who says socialiam doesn't stand a chance - not me ?"

Jim - sorry to have to be the one to break it to you like this,
but Santa, the Easter Bunny, and Tooth Fairy are never going to visit you either...

..and the second coming of Jesus is starting to look just as unlikely as well...

Wait.. what's that.. rumours that Elvis is about to make a come back...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 10:27 AM

Someone asked a while back what was your plan to get rid of the Tories, Jim. What is it? "Something will have to change" and "socialism has not been tried" are not plans. We tried Corbyn. That didn't work. Starmer has not been in office long enough. Give us your alternative.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 12:27 PM

"Someone asked a while back what was your plan to get rid of the Tories, Jim. What is it?"
I haven't one Dave - what's yours?
If you haven't one, why should you expect anybody else to have one ?

Corbyn didn't "fail" - he was crushed into silence by the situation, by a virulent campaign by the establishment and their toadies in the media - he left with his ideals intact, having tried his best
The fact that he drew the support he did
That was the first sortie in a long battle - the fact that he drew the support he did as quickly as he did is an indication that not everyone has grown old and lost the dream - they have my best wishes
Tired and disillusioned ex socialists sneering at the ideals of Socialism is going to bring about the end of the Labour Party as a vehicle for change
If Starmer manages to reintroduce New Labour back into the Party, as he obviously aims to, the Party will have failed - not those with the balls try
He's already made his intentions perfectly clear in sucking up to the right of the Pary y sacking those who might rock the boat
His extremely selective take on accusations of antisemitism makes him a ruthlessly dishonest politician - the fact that is it done to appease the "Friends" if an extremist right-wing State which is working cheek-by-jowl with the nutter in Pennsylvania Avenue doesn't auger well for either Britain or the party
Things are changing rapidly in Britain - Brexit and the damage done by the Pandemic has guaranteed that, without a decent opposition, that is going to last for a long-long time

I've taken to reading the right-wing press more than I ever did (for various reasons) - I have never seen a Tory leader under attack from every quarter as Johnson is at present - it is second only to the attacks made on Corbyn
The limp-wristed wafle from the leader of the opposition is a bloody disgrace to any half-decent progressive party in my recollection
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 12:50 PM

Jim - as always your analysis and historical perspective is admirably spot on.

But it's your conclusions and prescriptions that tend to go a bit amiss..

It should be obvious that any right wing media attacks on Boris,
are merely paving the way for him to be stabbed in the back
and replaced by gove,
or some other rival ruthless tory villain burning with ambition to be PM..

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 01:02 PM

"Someone asked a while back what was your plan to get rid of the Tories, Jim. What is it?"
I haven't one Dave - what's yours?
If you haven't one, why should you expect anybody else to have one ?”

The last refuge of a scoundrel - ‘answering’ a question with a question.

Anybody can determine that there’s a problem - it’s childishly simple. Coming up with the solution is the difficult bit. Not as clever as you’d like us all to believe then?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 01:12 PM

No Baccie - tha last refuge is not answering any of the questions asked
"stabbed in the back"
Maybe so, but that is not indicated by the tenor of the attacks
We have discussed ad-nauseum the appalling way theis government of clowns has mishandled the pandemic - no-one, as I remember, has disagreed
The press, lefyt and right have condemned it, medical experts have done the same.
Starmer has just publicly announced that "the way ahead is to have confidence in the measures put into place by Johnson's Government"
Anybody like to square that particular circle ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 01:31 PM

Google isn't showing that phrase as anything Starmer said, and I haven't found it in Hansard. Of course Google might not have indexed it yet, so can you give a link to where he said it? The exact phrasing of the original is important. For example, if he said Johnson needs to put forward a plan for the way ahead that we can all have confidence in, it would have a very different meaning. So if possible, a link to the full text where he said it, rather than a journalist's interpretation.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 01:48 PM

"Google isn't showing that phrase as anything Starmer said, "
I,ve just watched it on the BBC six oclock news - maybe Google can't get BBC
That is more or less word-for-word what he said
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 01:49 PM

Your questions are pointless, Jim, entrenched as they are in Left-Wing ideology and rhetoric which bears no relationship to the thinking and views of the majority of Labour-voters - and before you ask how could I possibly know that, I refer you to November 2019, the worst landslide Labour defeat in living memory presided over by your Golden Boy, the huge number of former Labour voters who deserted because they couldn’t vote for Corbyn, and the 81-seat Conservative majority that has made the Labour Party a complete irrelevance for at least the next four years.

Get a bloody grip man.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 02:47 PM

I haven't one Dave - what's yours?

We have Starmer for leader. I plan to get behind him until either Labour is back in power or the leadership changes. Whether I agree with him or not he is what we have and, for now, the only chance we have.

If you haven't one, why should you expect anybody else to have one ?

I do have one. As stated above. I expect anyone who disagrees with something to have an alternative.

Corbyn didn't "fail" - he was crushed into silence by the situation,

So he didn't have either the courage of guile to fight as dirty as they did. Admirable in the man but fatal in politics. If he didn't fail, why is he not currently residing at number 10?

makes him a ruthlessly dishonest politician

Sadly, at present, that is what seems to win elections.

When you find this place where politicians are honest, Socialism is a viable alternative and the press are fair, let me know. I'll book my ticket.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 02:55 PM

"We have Starmer for leader.!"
Is that a confession ?
I know who the leader is and I know what he has done
Any member otr supporter of a party who thinks discussing their leaders behaviour is pointless can't have much regard for that party's ethics or principles
You have neither denied nor explained his bahaviour to date
Sorry - I think I've made my point as you have yet to make yours
Interesting to see Labour supporters now participating in the same kicking match that the right-wing media launched into shortly after he arrived
Politics makes strange bedfellows eh ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:26 PM

Incidentally Baccie
This is the umpteenth time you have made an attack on Left wing politics - PFR has expressed his contempt for socialist ideals "tooth fairy" et al
Elsewhere there have been demands for "moderacy" - as if anything that has been suggested has been "immoderate
Where do you people Labour's politics should lie exactly
I find some of these arguments indistinguishable
Perhaps if we could establish where people stand politically themselves i wwe are going to understand each other
I have never uttered a single extremist view on what I believe, but I come away thinking I might not have been concentrating and have suggested storming Westminster and string up all its occupants
What exactly to you people have against socialist ideals to make you believe them to be so extreme ?
It's a bit late in the day to expect answers but who knows..... Crappy television programmes beckon
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:49 PM

"Tired and disillusioned ex socialists sneering at the ideals of Socialism "

"PFR has expressed his contempt for socialist ideals "

Jim - I'll tell you the same, I tell Ake and anyone else
who deliberately misconstrue what I say,
blatantly shoehorning it into fitting their bias..

You are talking flagrant bollocks.. [definitely not fragrant...]

My answer is NO, to all the tripe I have just quoted from you..

You are wrong to even think that of me...

Principles and theory are all well and good to guide how we aspire to interact with the real world...

But mostly only immature naive young idealists see them as absolutely dogmatically set in stone rules,
irrespective of the realities of this cruel brutal ruthless world we try to survive in...

It is inflexible doctrinaire folks like you who can't stop themselves handing victory
to our right wing opponents...

They want more loose canon lefties like you to assist in their divide and rule...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:55 PM

We all know how this goes now. Jim asks for answers to questions he has either not asked or has had answers to before. He then gets shirty and accuses everyone disagreeing with him of a) being right wing, b) having the favour of the mods or c) suppoting Israel. The situation then gets out of hand and the insults start flying. The thread is then closed.

Any takers for 10 to 1 on?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:02 PM

Well.. Maybe Barb'ry could then make a surprise return, and start a new fresh thread for us...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:27 PM

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:28 PM

Jim, for the love of God, how many fucking times do I have to say it before you get it through your head?

1) I’m sick to death of the succession of Conservative governments we’ve had for the past ten years, and the damage they have inflicted on this country, especially on the most vulnerable members of society.

2) I want a Labour government.

3) I believe that any Labour government is better than any Conservative government, irrespective of leader.

4) To use your words, “Something has to change”. The Labour Party is the only party capable of bringing change IMHO, but that can’t happen unless and until it achieves a majority in a GE. In opposition, and with an 81-seat deficit, it is impotent.

4) I’m not a party member, I have no vote in party leadership elections but, like everyone I guess, I have personal preferences.

5) I didn’t want Corbyn as leader but, when he was democratically elected by the party membership, I gave him the respect he deserved in that position, spoke in support of him, and voted for my Labour candidate at the 2019 GE. My doubts about Corbyn’s suitability for the position of leader were validated by the unmitigated disaster of the election - the Labour Party under Corbyn was unelectable.

6) I didn’t want Starmer as leader, my preference came third in the election but, Starmer having been democratically elected by the party membership, I give him the respect he deserves in that position, I speak in support of him, and I will vote for my Labour candidate in the next GE, whenever that may be. It’s an old-fashioned concept called ‘Loyalty’, and I live in hope that he will be able to make the party electable once again..

7) it seems to me that the very people who screamed blue-murder about the treachery and back-stabbing that went on against Corbyn are the self-same ones who are now undermining and displaying similar treachery against Starmer. Treachery is treachery, no matter which side the perpetrator of that treachery is on. Think on that.

8) In his first period as leader, Starmer has achieved something that Corbyn never could - he has outwitted and out-debated the Conservative leader at PMQs, and clearly demonstrated that arm-waving, big words, and bluster are all Johnson’s got. Starmer has four more years to organise, formulate policies, and devise a a strategy to neutralise the Tory Propaganda and Smear Campaigns that will undoubtedly increase in intensity the closer we get to an election. I’m prepared to give him the chance to do that.

9) To bring about change, the Labour Party has to be electable. Under Corbyn, for whatever reasons, it was unelectable. I hope that under the new leader it will become electable once more.

Now that’s your lot. Instead of firing off questions at all and sundry and demanding that they explain themselves, let’s hear your brilliant master-plan for creating a successful Socialist State in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 07:39 PM

You're sick of Tory governments, right? So you see this Gordon Brown/Ed Miliband cardboard cutout bloke as some kind of answer, eh? Well we have four years to go, and we've already seen this weak man pandering to the pro-Israel lobby and ditching his principles in order to sack a damn good prospect for the party. All that does is give succour to his adversaries in the press and the Board of Deputies to pounce ever more on every little bloody thing he says or isn't being seen to do at their behest. He simply can't and won't shake them off. Everybody on the planet knows that being good at PMQs is not wot the people of this country see as leader material. In the current climate, cheap populism trumps stuff like that every time, and the Daily Mail will always see to that. Having an orgasm because you think that Keir has demolished Boris at the despatch box is infantile. And, for Christ's sake, he is so BORING. Man in suit. I desperately want to be wrong, but the party is simply repeating historic failure. In the seventies I used to parrot on about how the country needed "a socialist alternative." I've changed my mind about that, and, though all my instincts are socialist ones, I want to replace socialist" with "genuine." Not Tory-lite, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 02:35 AM

We're all sick to death of a series of Conservative Governments - whether call themselves "Conservative" or "Labour"
I want a Labour Pary which fights on Labour principles - not another Brown or Blair or Wilson Government
The fact that Labour is back in the hands of the right is not going to get that
If another Labour-wannabe Tory Government is elected the Party is finished, it never gets more simple than that - electing Starmeris a step in that direction
Yesterday the man says we must all back Johnson's leadership over Covid - is that not plain enough for anybody to realise the direction he will take the Party in ?
The first major public action he took is to sell the Party's reputation out in an attempt to win back 'Friends of Israel' who left because Corbyn refused to back that state's ethnic cleansing policy
He was prepared to split the party in order to get those people and the New Labour anti-Corbynites back on board
Is that the type of Party you want to put into power - I ***** don't

Johnson will be replaced anyway - he's a buffoon and a figure of fun, even to the right-wing press
Big business with look for a "hard" leader capably of forcing through the re-opening of Britain, no matter what the risk to people's lives - Johnson has proved himself willing to do that but he lacks the authority - Starmer has publicly backed him
Can't you people see the writing on the wall
The Lablour Party has long needed a leader with the prionciples and the ability to steer Labour into becoming a half-decent, genuine opposition to what has been happening basically since the arrival of Thatcher on the scene - a Tory cap-doffer like Starmer fell at the first fence, got up and fell down at the next one
Sniding at the only decent, principled Party leader is only playing into the Tory's hands, as is attacking those in the Party who believe in the old Pary values
I've had enough of being accused of being an extremist or "a leftie" to last a lifetime without having to put up with it from people I once respected
Let's debate the real issues without the right-wing rhetoric for a change - please
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:00 AM

As I said, I thought knowing exactly what Starmer said was important, so here is the transcript of what he said on the BBC Six o'clock news last night, via iPlayer (opening minute or two):

The key now is confidence. Do the public have confidence in the measures the government have put in place? Do businesses have confidence in the advice that is being given?

Moreover, the tone of voice was very much that he did not think they did have that confidence. People will differ, but to me that is better interpreted as him saying the government plans are inadequate, rather than they are fine and we must all back them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:15 AM

That's not the impression I got - if the people do not have confidence, then why encourage them to back it ?
I spoke to my sister again last night - Liverpool is in utter confusion; on the one hand they are being encouraged to go back to work, on the other Lancashire is being threatened with a similar lock-down to that of Leicestershire - asking people to back that is uter suicidal madness
That's what I heard from Starmer
Jim