BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 01:37 AM

I got Leicester's treatment completely wrong: I said in a few places I did not think they would lock down Leicester because it makes the upcoming 'New Deal' speech more difficult.

I waited until Hansard was out, because I wanted to get this part of Hancock's speech precisely correct. Here's what he said, with my highlighting:

We have decided that from tomorrow non-essential retail will have to close and, as children have been particularly impacted by this outbreak, schools will also need to close from Thursday

Children particularly affected by this outbreak? If the press pick up on that I can see more problems with reopening schools ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 04:42 AM

Hancock was on the Today show on BBC Radio 4 this morning and

"He said: "We've sent a lot of extra testing into Leicester over the last 10 days or so and one of the things we've found is that there are under 18s who have tested positive.

"Therefore, because children can transmit the disease, even though they are highly unlikely to get ill from the disease, we think the safest thing to do is to close the schools."

One thing we can all agree on is that the handling of the public relations or getting the news out about this virus, has been very bad. Whoever is responsible for that job is not doing it very well.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 09:44 AM

I see that the Beeb is reporting that the overall death rate has gone even a bit below the expected level for the time of year. I wonder whether that's because a lot of people who should have died last week are already dead...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 10:58 AM

innit like boris's beach swarming dickheads
aren't expected to start dropping like flies until something like 7 to 10 days later...???

[.. and btw, where's Leicester's nearest seaside or lake resorts...???]

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 11:30 AM

cumming's initial devious [..cough.. alleged..] plan was to exploit pandemic to cull costly non productive old and weak..

His new follow up scheme seems to be to loosen lockdown restrictions in order to thin out expensive sunbathing furloughed workers
and their dependent family members...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 11:30 AM

”[.. and btw, where's Leicester's nearest seaside or lake resorts...???]“

Lake - Rutland Water?

Seaside - Skeggy is traditionally Leicester’s go-to resort. They even used to have a Leicester Boys’ Home there, closed now.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 12:10 PM

Several runners have been withdrawn by trainers from racing at Leicester after Tuesday's meeting was cleared to go ahead despite new city lockdown rules.

The nine-race evening fixture is taking place after consultation between local health authorities and the British Horseracing Authority (BHA).

I imagine the race track is actually some distance outside of Leicester, but when it comes to sending mixed messages, we have a "world-beating" government.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 12:17 PM

I suppose an old etonian boy would be overly fond of the word "beating"..

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 06:46 PM

from the Beeb

Nia Griffith was shadow defence secretary under Jeremy Corbyn, with Keir Starmer appointing her shadow Welsh secretary when he took over the leadership.
Ms Griffith said anyone who cannot accept Sir Keir's zero-tolerance approach should leave the party.
"He (Sir Keir Starmer) said he would deal with anti-Semitism in the party," Ms Griffith said.
"And we really needed decisive action to do that so when, unfortunately, Rebecca Long-Bailey did what she did on Thursday, and did not respond to the opportunity to apologise, it was absolutely essential.
"And he's had real support throughout the party on that."
Mrs Long-Bailey retweeted the article, which was an interview with actor and Labour supporter Maxine Peake, but later the former shadow education secretary said she had not meant to endorse all aspects of it.
When pressed on whether members who have sent messages of support from the left for Mrs Long-Bailey were guilty of anti-Semitism, Ms Griffith said: "Well I think they are and I think they're also in danger of going backwards and going back over old arguments and old mistakes because what we need now is clear, decisive action to make sure that we root out anti-Semitism in the party.
"And so, it's absolutely vital that we do that, not just talk about it.
"So action is really important and they must learn to accept that and I'm sure the majority of them will."
The Welsh Labour Grassroots group put out a statement following Thursday's events, which said criticism of the Israeli Government was not tantamount to anti-Semitism.
Ms Griffith said that was "disappointing and worrying", and that "when people start making blanket assumptions or blanket criticisms that is very often the basis of anti-Semitism or racism".
She added: "That's completely different from making a specific comment about a specific policy about a specific government."
On the question of what should happen to members who agreed with Mrs Long-Bailey, Ms Griffith said: "Well it is going to be a long process and I think starting off by making it absolutely clear we have zero tolerance of anti-Semitism in the party is step one, but quite clearly there is work to be done."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 07:54 PM

"When pressed on whether members who have sent messages of support from the left for Mrs Long-Bailey
were guilty of anti-Semitism, Ms Griffith said: "Well I think they are"...


Easy enough to dismiss her own "blanket assumption or blanket criticism"...!!!

..Toadying claptrap...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 08:46 PM

It's late, pfr, so I hope it's ok if I just say "yep"...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 12:52 AM

The comment from Ms. Peake was the kind of offhand association of ideas with no solid foundation as is used to spread nasty ideas about parties and just infiltrate the blogosphere. This tactic did not start with the internet or twitter but has certainly been magnified by it. It does nothing but spread a false association as if it is founded in actual research, which it isn't. The retweet on the part of Long-Bailey just makes it more indirect and harder to call out. It's the kind of incessant negative nattering that is at the heart of casting unfounded aspersions and builds an "attitude without evidence" and indeed got Corbyn called up multiple times.

Sir Keir called the situation correctly, as Griffith stated above. And the fact that so many people think that that kind of below-the-breath allegation is a correct way to behave shows how deep it's gone.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 02:14 AM

Ok, Robomatic. Maxine Peake may well have made an unfounded comment. The American police may not have learned the tactic from the Israeli secret service. But while whether they did or didn't is a conspiracy theory, how is it antisemitic? In fact, by saying it is antisemitic, you are tarring all Jews with the same brush as the nastier elements of the Israeli regime. There are millions of decent Jews around the world who are as appalled by some of the tactics of the Israeli government as you and I are. Are you really saying that by criticising the more extreme elements of that regime, she was criticising the Jewish people in general?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 02:41 AM

Posted here without comment. The Economist, 12/10/19....

Drawing the line between anti-semitism and criticism of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 03:12 AM

It is an established fact that the Isralis have been training American police forces for several years now, one of those being the Minneapolis police force
It is also true that the tactic of 'kneeling on the neck' is a regular one used against Palestinian protesters and has been reported widely - Makine Peake got her information from a newspaper article published in 2012
It would have been logical to assume that the Minneapolis police were trained in this riot control tactic - their trainers would have been remiss had they not taught it in the circumstances
However, Peake didn't have to assume anything - it was reported in the 2012 article - it was not an assumption, it was a report she was well within her rights to make
In sacking Long-Bailey and the massive damage it has done to the Party Starmer has attempted to stifle criticism of Israel and has verified the smears against The Labour Party.
There is no evidence whatever to show the Pary has ever had a probem wit The Jewish People - not a shred - sure, a tiny handful o members have made critiscism o Israeli crimes 'Jewish' but so has Israel - by claiming it is 'antisemitic' to criticise Israli policy, is too claim that policy to be "Jewish"

Israel is a State which has been committing crimes against humanity on a large scale under the guise of "defending itself", with the active protection of the U.S. and the silence of the est of the world - one of the greatest massacres of unarmed civilians i peace time took place in 1982 when the Israeli Army facilitated the mass-murder of up to 3,500 unarmed refugees, turned back those trying to escape and, after three days, helped hide the evidence by supplying machinery to bury the bodies
There has never been such a single massacre since W.W.2. - the man found responsible (even by the Israeli enquiry), Areil Sharon, became Israeli Prime minister 19 years later
The mane eye witness to the massacre, American Jewish nurse, Ellen Seigal, has dedicated her life to bringing Israel to justice   

THere are no '"nastier elements@ of the Israeli regime - it is an extremist, right wing regime run by a criminal and in the process of ethnically cleansing the Arabs about of their rightful territory - full stop - it is estimated that their policies have added 7.2 millioan refugees to the present world total

In defending this regime, Starmer has now placed the Labour Party among those 'silent appeasers' defending this criminal behavour - which is why he is not fit to be leader
If that is the Labour Party Britain now has, it should not be supported
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 05:30 AM

Johnson must dread PMQs now that Labour has a leader who can show him for the clueless Twunt he is. Something Corbyn never managed to do.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 06:10 AM

"Something Corbyn never managed to do."
Cobyn is a relatively inexperienced politician who has never held major office and was finding his feet - Starmer is a senior QC whose prefession is based on the use of words and argument
An apples and grapefruit comparison
One is a committed socialist with principles, the other is an opportunist careerist prepared to sell out his colleagues and the reputation of his Party when it becomes convenient to do so - apples and grapefruit again
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:00 AM

One led the party to its worst-in-living-memory defeat in the 2019 GE - an absolutely disastrous arse-kicking, delivered by a Tory party unfit to govern with a leader unfit to lead.

Just remind me, who that one was...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:02 AM

I don't like the fact that my country sells planes to the Saudis which they use to bomb Yemeni civilians, and I frequently say so. That is a criticism of government policy, not of the character or predilections of the British people. I don't like the fact that the Israeli secret service is involved in training foreign police forces in violent methods of restraint, and I frequently say so. That is a criticism of Israeli government policy, not of the character or predilections of the Jewish people (as Israel characterises itself as a Jewish state, I regard it as appropriate to put it that way). If I were to say that the Israeli government behaviour that I don't like is typical of Jews, that would be antisemitic. If I single out the behaviour of Israel in a discussion about foreign or domestic policy, I don't have to mention everybody else's bad behaviour in order to avoid being called antisemitic, though you'd rightfully think that I was being obsessive, and suspect my motives, if I NEVER mentioned anyone else. We single out the behaviour of different nations' governments all the time, whether it's us selling jets to the Saudis or American foreign policy or the outrages of the Chinese regime, and we don't feel obliged to demonstrate every time that everyone else is just as bad. I'm not going to feel that I can't mention Israel without walking on eggshells when I don't do that for every other country's regime. Unfortunately, that's the mindset we are expected to adopt by pro-Israel hawks (can I say that?) And that ain't right.

If the Jewish people in Israel and beyond are anything like us Brits, large numbers won't know or give a damn what their secret services, etc., get up to. That's why I'm careful to criticise the Israeli regime, not "the Jews" or the "Israelis" or even "Israel." We don't need to walk on eggshells, but words are important.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:12 AM

Well, John, Jeremy Corbyn was up against a hubris-ridden, devious, newly-elected populist full of braggadocio. Starmer is up against a very different man with a whole bunch of problems that he couldn't have predicted, including a near-death experience and an incredibly shabby track record of proven incompetence, and Starmer is still enjoying his charmed-life honeymoon. Something to contemplate before we make pat comparisons between him and Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:17 AM

Y’know Steve, it’s almost as though you and Jim don’t want a Labour government. It’s like you’d prefer the Johnson Gang to stay in power, butt-fucking the most vulnerable. Weird.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:25 AM

"One led the party to its worst-in-living-memory defeat in the 2019"
Brexit Fatigue won the 2019 election - nothing else
Corbyn came in and began to turn the Labour Party from a second rate 'son of the Tory Party' back into one with an alternative policy
Now we seem to have Starmer supporters lining up with the bum-wipe press to give him a kicking for trying to reintroduce Labour to why it was et up in the first place - strange bedfellows - or are they ?
This becomes as devisive as sacking ministers for telling the truth
Sorry - can't see a future for the party I was once proud to vote for if this is what has happened to it

I have been fascinated to to what hass happened to parts of the concious population over the last few months
First a major moe towerd ending the inherent racism that has been re-awakened by Brexit and Populism - this has spread to a re-extermination of Britain's colonial past and the inequality of many of the cultural minorities - Travellers included
Thanks to a young girl, the kids have approached the perilous situation of Climate Change, big-time - I was listening to David Attenborough addressing conference delegates, this morning - Thunberg's activities have played a major part in his thinking
Looking outside Parliament, the politicians are going to have to run very fast to keep up with what's happening on the streets

The pathetic numbers that attend parliamentary sessions have always been irrelevancies - the Labour Party needs to decide whose side they are on and they need a leader with principles to do that
This feller fell at the first fence
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:48 AM

Plenty of Labour supporters have severe reservations about Starmer. Before the election he was the fence-sitter par excellence. He's currently giving the illusion that he's doing well, but it's only because he's up against an incompetent man whose firing pin has been removed. He wants us to think the his unprincipled sacking Of RLB was him showing us that he can be "decisive," in stark contrast to his previous self. Well I'll make two predictions: that he'll make a lot more mistakes in the next four years for the media hawks to feed on, and that she'll be back on the front bench before the next election. As LBJ said about J. Edgar Hoover, better to have her inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in...The left are never going away. It's our bloody party...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:48 AM

No party can change anything if they’re not in government. To be in government, they have to be elected. To be elected they have to present themselves in a way that persuades not only party-members and non-members who habitually vote for the party but, more importantly, voters with no political allegiance, to vote for them.

Corbyn, for whatever reasons, failed dismally. As Einstein said, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result. There has to be a change of direction. The voting public rejected the (far too many announced at one time) policies of Corbyn’s Labour. To insist on a move further to the left, or even simply a continuation of ‘Corbynism’ is to fulfil that definition of insanity.

Funny how some people find that so difficult to understand. I want a Labour government, clearly some people want the present bunch to stay in power indefinitely.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:52 AM

And, Steve, I hope RL-B does return to the Shadow Cabinet, sooner rather than later. I believe she’s a good brain who made a silly mistake. Hopefully she’s learned that it’s sometimes better to keep ones mouth shut.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 08:12 AM

"No party can change anything if they’re not in government."
Unless the Labour Party provides an alternative to what has gone before it doesn't matter if they hold power - it would have been better for Britain if Blair's Party had not been elected - they left us a legacy of OIL WARS

"It's our bloody party..."
Yes it is, or it would be if it hadn't been hi-jacked by wannabe Tories
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 09:03 AM

There has always been a prominent left-wing element in the Labour Party. Many of the Good Things that Labour has ever done have been left-wing Good Things. The left will always be there in the party and it's no good for the right-wingers in the party to persist in letting that stick in their craw. That is what's happening now. But we are not going away. Unless you're a rabid revolutionary, which I'm not, your natural political home as a leftie should be the Labour Party. The right wing of the party can't hold us to ransom by saying that unless we keep our heads down we are causing splits. They are the ones causing the split by being unLabour, not us. What RLB did was trivial compared to things like Johnson's racist comments or the stealing of taxpayers' money by dishonestly inflating expenses claims or by sexually harassing female MPs or other parliamentary staff. And not one of her critics has managed to demonstrate that she holds antisemitic views. Sir Keir should have a motto on his office wall, "I'll put my foot down, right or wrong." Starmer is running scared of the pro-Israel lobby both in the party and in the country. The confected antisemitism row was perpetuated by the likes of John Mann, Margaret Hodge, Ruth Smeeth and John Woodcock, all from the right of the party and, well, I won't mention deviousness and dishonesty...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 10:09 AM

DTG:Ok, Robomatic. Maxine Peake may well have made an unfounded comment. The American police may not have learned the tactic from the Israeli secret service. But while whether they did or didn't is a conspiracy theory, how is it antisemitic? In fact, by saying it is antisemitic, you are tarring all Jews with the same brush as the nastier elements of the Israeli regime. There are millions of decent Jews around the world who are as appalled by some of the tactics of the Israeli government as you and I are. Are you really saying that by criticising the more extreme elements of that regime, she was criticising the Jewish people in general?

DTG: That was a well worded post. Thank you. What I'm saying is not that the words of Ms. Peake expressed as a valid opinion and point of departure for investigative journalism were antisemitic. They are not. They are not even antiZionist. But couched in the form of an 'aside' that is assumed to be true and then gets 'read into the record' in a politically relevant tweet (or retweet) develops its own context, particularly in the light of existing criticisms of Labour. (And I'm going to add personally that I've run into that kind of tactic in the work environment. It carries a weight out of proportion with its apparent innocuousness. The only effective way I've found to deal with it is to call it out). What I saw in the remark was an opportunity to link Israelis as allies of the worst of American policing efforts in the persecution of American black folk. When there is no evidence that any Israeli ever suggested kneeling on someone's neck for over eight minutes or invented this technique at all? This was where Ms. Griffith's point was best taken:"That's completely different from making a specific comment about a specific policy about a specific government." Ms. Long-Bailey was, I understand, given leave to recall her tweet before she was demoted (if that is the right word). This doesn't sound like a career ender, but a 'frank exchange of views'. At this point my feeble understanding of your politics rapidly loses grip. My understanding is that someone tried to murmur something underhanded under their breath, got called out for it, and a backbench scuffle ensued, and has gone underground again for the time being. (Same as happens here).

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 10:09 AM

Do you want a Labour government Steve? Or are you happy to condemn this country, especially its most vulnerable citizens, to being indefinitely abused by the greedy, rapacious Tories?

If it’s the former, you need to look up a word in the dictionary - ‘compromise’. If it’s the latter, carry on, you and Jim are doing a fine job. And shame on you both.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 10:10 AM

Good post, Robo.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 11:35 AM

THis gets ridiculous
- you can go on forever repeating the same old mantra - utterly meaningless
Labour has far too many examples of leaders who have taken office and then changed their tune - this feller at last pressed th early warning buzzer at an early stage
Does Labour really need another Tony Blair ?
W"no evidence that any Israeli ever suggested kneeling on someone's neck for over eight minutes"
Who put a time on it- nobody here ?
Peake did not give her opinion - she quoted a newspaper report which appears to be accurate on all accounts
That they back-tracked 'for the good of the party' maybe reprehensible, but it's no more than what is being suggested here

You have yet to qualify your "antisemitism" accusation Robo
Jim

UP CLOSE AND UGLY

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 11:46 AM

I’ll keep saying it until people like you realise that **your version** of the Labour Party is unelectable, Jim, and if it can’t get elected, it can’t even begin to deal with the damage caused by ten years of Tory mis-rule.

It’s so childishly simple, I’m astonished you don’t ‘get it’...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 11:51 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 09:03 AM

There has always been a prominent left-wing element in the Labour Party. Many of the Good Things that Labour has ever done have been left-wing Good Things. The left will always be there in the party and it's no good for the right-wingers in the party to persist in letting that stick in their craw. That is what's happening now. But we are not going away. Unless you're a rabid revolutionary, which I'm not, your natural political home as a leftie should be the Labour Party. The right wing of the party can't hold us to ransom by saying that unless we keep our heads down we are causing splits. They are the ones causing the split by being unLabour, not us.

But without those of the Labour Party who are "right wing" (for Labour Party purposes) the Labour Party would have garnered even less votes, and consequently less representation, at the last election. Unless, of course, you believe that stripping the Labour Party of its "right-wing" element would encourage a lot more people to see it as a party with a mission, and decide to vote for it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 11:54 AM

As is so often the case with the internet, once you start looking things become less clear.

I don't believe Peake quoted any source during her interview for her claim about the Israeli training US police to kneel on suspects necks. It seems her source was a blog post from 2012. Amnesty International then appear to have said that its report does not show any evidence of “neck kneeling” as a technique taught by the Israeli secret services, nor evidence that the Minnesota police force received training from the Israeli secret services.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 12:10 PM

I don't believe in stripping the Labour Party of anybody. There is a wide range of opinion in the party, but, instead of embracing that constructively, leaders such as Callaghan, Kinnock, Blair, Brown and Starmer regard the left as an inconvenient nuisance who must be kept sidelined. Well we don't like being sidelined and we won't be keeping quiet in the vain hope that a weak and unprincipled man such as Starmer might spend the next four years polishing his halo. He won't and he is currently just as "unelectable" as Jeremy Corbyn was last year (who, for you with short memories, surprised everybody in 2017 with a campaign predicated on principle and quiet dignity that didn't win the election but gave the lie to the mass media's claim that he was a basket case). Ironic that BWM's call for "compromise" would entail the right calling all the shots and the left keeping out of the way...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 12:20 PM

Steve, I never wanted Corbyn as leader, I always believed he was a bad choice. But, having been chosen by party-members in a democratic vote, and because I wanted a Labour government, I held my nose, supported him, and voted Labour whilst he was the leader.

Why can’t ‘clever people’ understand what a simple man like me is trying to tell them?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 12:35 PM

”Cobyn is a relatively inexperienced politician”

He’s been the MP for North Islington since 1983. I’ll do the sums for you, that’s thirty-seven years! ‘Inexperienced’? Give us a break!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 12:53 PM

"He’s been the MP for North Islington since 1983"
So have a lot of others - none of them would make good PMs right away
Islington North is a fair distance from Westminster
Jim
"Why can’t ‘clever people’ understand what a simple man like me is trying to tell them?"
Possibly because you support leaders who sack people who get in the way of their ambitions :-)
"I don't believe Peake quoted any source during her interview for her claim about the Israeli training US police to kneel on suspects necks"
You've been given the article - maybe she had a crystal ball - she certainly wasn't wrong
"the Labour Party would have garnered even less votes"
Surely - as your party is proving daily - it depends on what those votes?
Parlimentary politics is now totally discredited as a way - a laughing stock - even to those who still bother voting
EVEN YOUR YES_MEN KNOW THAT
Jim


Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 01:07 PM

I wonder who the real "enemy" is.

I always considered that the "enemy" should and would be the conservative party for those of us who support the labour party.

It would seem that some of us are intent on undermining the new leader to the extent that he is perceived as the "enemy".

As is it the media can sit back and watch as we scupper any chance of the labour party winning the next election and if we carry on the election after that.

Occasionally Iains pointed this out to us. Maybe just maybe he was correct, and you silly buggers just carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 01:11 PM

"THAT'S WHAT THEY DO TO US"
AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 01:32 PM

Thanks, Robo. I understand your point better now and I agree. It is That type of tactic that should be called out. It still isn't antisemitic though :-)

Jim. Brexit Fatigue won the 2019 election - nothing else

That is one off those throwaway comments that needs calling out. There is no doubt that people were pissed off with Brexit inactivity. The Tories capitalised on that with three little words, Get Brixit Done, and it worked. There is no reason at all that Labour could not have done the same. Instead they prevaricted and confused people with mixed messages. So, sadly, Boris was wiser than Jeremy in this case.

As to Does Labour really need another Tony Blair ?. Well, until the Gulf war he was the most successful Labour prime minister I have known. The amount spent on health, education and social sercices were massive during his tenure. Until he dropped the ball with university fees he did remarkably well. The war was unforgivable and he, quite rightly, resigned over that.

So, in answer to your question, Yes. Without the war.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 01:58 PM

”Possibly because you support leaders who sack people who get in the way of their ambitions”

No, Jim. If you actually read what I wrote several times over the past few days, and thought about it instead of launching into ideological rants at me, you’d realise that I support whoever the elected leader happens to be, including those I wouldn’t personally have chosen - e.g. Corbyn.

It’s called ‘party-loyalty’. And party-loyalty is a part of getting the party elected to government. This country desperately needs for Labour to get elected to government, and it won’t be helped to do that by turncoats who throw teddy out of the pram because they don’t like the leader.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 02:00 PM

Get the tories out, and keep 'em out.
But don't let our divisive lefty infighting
enable the far right to win Govt instead of us...

..simple innit...!!!?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 02:30 PM

And, for the record, I don’t give a flying fuck whether RL-B’s tweet was, or wasn’t, ‘anti-Semitic - I’ve deliberately avoided making any judgment about that. The fact is that the party-leader decided to ask her to retract and, according to the reports I’ve seen and read, she refused. He was entirely within his rights to take disciplinary action.

The party is bigger than any individual MP, and the leader of the party deserves loyalty and support, even when he makes an unpopular decision. The time to attack the leader is if/when the party fails at the ballot-box, not during the first three months of his tenure and when he makes his first unpopular decision.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 03:03 PM

"whoever the elected leader happens to be, "
Does that include Blair ?
Wan't Corbyn elected - you said you didn't support him ?
"Well, until the Gulf war he was the most successful Labour prime minister I have known"
Well no, he wasn't - that was Attlee - hi Government rebuilt post-awar Britain, left us social housing and the National Health system - all Blair left us was a nasty taste in our mouth and New Labour
I think you might mean 'popuar' just as Brexit is popular and Johnson now is
And you back Boris's Brexit internecine butchery rather than Corbyn's attempts to keep his arty together curioser and curioser !
Are you sure you're supporting the right leader ????
Discussions like this certainly does seem to bring them out of their closets

If you don't mind - I'll stick with leaders who don't sack their collegues for telling the truth - which has yet to be challenged, by the way
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 03:14 PM

Not sure who that was aimed at, Jim, but if it was me....

Re: “Wasnt Corbyn elected - you said you didn’t support him?”

Me - today, 12:20 PM -” Steve, I never wanted Corbyn as leader, I always believed he was a bad choice. But, having been chosen by party-members in a democratic vote, and because I wanted a Labour government, I held my nose, supported him, and voted Labour whilst he was the leader.“

I don’t understand any of the rest of your post, it certainly doesn’t refer to anything I recognise as having been posted by me. Unless you’re distorting and trying to put words in my mouth again?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 04:11 PM

Once again, Jim.

the most successful Labour prime minister I have known

Attlee held the role from 1945 to 1951. I was born in 1953.

Blair was entirely wrong about the war but aside from that he worked wonders for the Labour party, social equality and the NHS. I cannot think of anyone with a better track record. Until he ruined it by pandering to Bush but that was the end of his tenure.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 06:14 PM

Ok.. hands up anyone now convinced Labour are so shit,
the tories should stay in power as long as they want to...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 06:54 PM

Actually, Dave, the gap between rich and poor got ever wider under New Labour. Not only that, Blair kept the Thatcher fuse burning via the extremely light touch apropos of regulation of the financial sector. That helped to precipitate the meltdown in 2008 and allowed the Tories to impose a decade of austerity on the most vulnerable. Just thought I'd mention it.

I'm finding some thinking in this thread by the anti-Corbynite faction in our midst that absolutely anything goes, including the ditching of all our principles, just in order to make us "electable." That appears to include keeping lefties very quiet, as if they're the ones who cause all the rifts in the party. Well Labour is SUPPOSED to be a left-wing party, lest you forget, and I don't know what you're thinking of if you think we should shut up. I also don't know what you're thinking of if you think that ditching principles can ever be an election winner for a genuinely humanitarian political party. It works for populist parties sure as eggs is eggs, as we've seen. But if we can't be better than that, I don't think we should bother. Maybe I'll go all daftly earth-mother and join the bloody Greens...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:09 PM

" our divisive lefty infighting..."

The "infighting" has not been lefty. It's been between the right-wing establishment wing of the party (Mann, Hodge, Smeeth, Ellman, Woodcock, etc), you know, the bastards who have toted Labour's electoral suicide note ever since Corbyn was elected leader, and a relatively principled leftie leadership (yeah, too unspun, too not media-savvy, more than a bit naive...). It's always been true in Labour that the left have endured ardent and passionate debate and have suffered differences in perspective. But, make no mistake, the real infighting has always been between establishment men to the middle-right and the left. Starmer is a completely typical member of the former. Watch that space. He has four years to fail, and, as he has no principles, he will. It's a dead cert. You'll end up wishing that Jezza was back...Think I'm mad, eh? Blimey, what do YOU know!