BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:23 AM

I have linked to the news article, Jim. Starmer is something like 36 seconds in. As always, I invite people to make their own judgement, not to rely on mine.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:47 AM

Sorry Mac - The BBC is not generous enough to allow us in Ireland to listen to what they have to say - I can't open it
Satrmer said what I heard him say - it seemed clear enough to me
I have no intention of being bogged down in this particular issue - there are far more important ones
Does it not concern you that this leader has joined those in claiming there to be an anti-semitism problem to the extent of sacking a shadow cabinet member for daring to criticise Israel's involvement in training American policemen who are killing blacks ?
He is so determined to do this he has split the Labour Party in orer to appease the extreme right within its ranks
Try addressing that fact - any of you now urging us to support this man
Incidentally, those members who say they don't know if Labour has a serious antisemitism problem appear to be suggesting it might have - there is enough evidence to the contrary for those who care to look for it
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:54 AM

Jim, Steve, two straight questions for you both:-

1) Given the Tories’ landslide win in the GE, with an overall majority of 81, and in view of the desertion of large numbers of former Labour voters, do you agree with that piece of irrefutable evidence that Labour under Corbyn was unelectable.

2) What are your strategies for making Labour electable in the future?

No ifs, no buts, no word-twisting, no answering questions with questions - in short, no horse-shit - just straight answers to two straight questions please.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 04:04 AM

I go back to my earlier point, Jim. I see a focus on Starmer to the exclusion of all the other things happening in UK politics disappointing. At a very rough assessment based on the 50-page size of Mudcat, we have now spent something like 170 posts talking about little else. Meanwhile all the other antics of the Government get ignored. Not good, in my view. And, I would guess, exactly what the Government would like us to do.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 04:24 AM

Yep, DMcG, Jim and Steve are proving to be the best friends these bastard Tories have, aren’t they?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 04:34 AM

John, this country has four years in which to see the weaknesses of this man. He is not brave enough to take anyone on. He needs to show that he is vehemently anti-populist and will do incredibly unpopular things to make this country a civilised place again. He needs the charisma to make the Murdoch press sit up and think, hello, we'd better back this bloke because he looks like a winner. We need a Blair but with principles. It will be someone as yet untried, but we'll have to keep our eyes skinned for the next few years. Sure, we can get behind the current bloke, vote for him and grasp at the straw that he'll win and be the slightly lesser of two evils. But that won't happen. The Israeli regime and the Board Of Deputies have seen how weak he is and he'll keep on doing the things that he thinks will assuage them. A follower not a leader. If you don't think the public will see through that...

The next election is likely to be between Starmer and Sunak. And you think we have a cat in hell's chance with that... One more heave again, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 04:50 AM

"Jim and Steve are proving to be the best friends these bastard Tories have, aren’t they?"
No Baccie
Those supporting starmersd swinging teh party to the right and calling their Labour Party comrades "lefties" (as an insult) are doing just that
Starmer had lowered the party to the bumwipe press level by suggesting that it has a serious antisemitism problem - as have those who refusing to condemn him for doing so
Just what Johnson needs now is a weakened Labour Party at each others throats - that what Starmer has given him - on a plate
MAYBE THE GUARDIAN IS TOO "LEFTIE" FOR SOME PEOPLE
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:02 AM

Jim, Steve, I asked you two straight, simple questions, with a request for you to refrain from obfuscation. You’ve both sidestepped both questions. Now be honest for once, and answer the questions. Here they are again...

1) Given the Tories’ landslide win in the GE, with an overall majority of 81, and in view of the desertion of large numbers of former Labour voters, do you agree with that piece of irrefutable evidence that Labour under Corbyn was unelectable.

2) What are your strategies for making Labour electable in the future?

No ifs, no buts, no word-twisting, no answering questions with questions - in short, no horse-shit - just straight answers to two straight questions.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:17 AM

Perhaps Hank Marvin should be leader of the labour party, the shadows dance is sure to win elections

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:34 AM

I have to wonder whether this discussion is representative of the whole Labour Party.
The Conservatives here step back from the discussion, so the Labour supporters start kicking each other instead.
To quote Abe Lincoln: "A house divided against itself, cannot stand.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:37 AM

"You’ve both sidestepped both questions"
I'll be happy to answer any of your questions when you start answering mine Baccie
I made the point of Starmer betraying the Labour Party by accusing a cabinet member of antisemitism and sacking her way, way up on this thread - you have yet to give a straight answer to that
You really can't demand answers and behave like that
Your question was well answered as far as I am concerned - the Labour Party needs a leader that can be trusted - this felleer has shown he can't be
The Labour needs plicies that are distinguishable from those of the Tories - new Labour, who you appear to support (with your accusations of "leftie") has bur credit-card thickness between Labour and the rest of the main parties
Corbyn gave the genuine supportes of Labour policies a reason to hope things would get better =- the leader you are pimping for has destroyed hat hope -
You, Dave and the "lefties" accusers blame the people - saying that's what they want - that't what the Tories and the Populists do
I've shown yo mine, let's have a look at yours
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:46 AM

Hank for leader of the labour party , we could all dance to apache.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:47 AM

So, no answer then, Jim?You haven’t the honesty or the balls to admit that Corbyn’s Labour was unelectable, you haven’t a clue how to make Labour electable.

Why am I not surprised? What is that saying about ‘empty vessels’...?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:59 AM

"So, no answer then, Jim?You haven’t the honesty or the balls to admit that Corbyn’s Labour was unelectable, "
Done and Dusted - the Government won the last election on the basis of the chaos caused by Brexit - only the right blame Corbyn - you have chosen choice running mates
Corbyn's policies may be difficult yto put across in the prasent "we hate Corbyn" atmosphere, but I would at least expect so-called members of the Party to support him - nott so, it seems
Now we have a rightie back in charge
The leader of the TUC has now resignbed because of Starmmer's failiure to stand up to Govenment policies
He has warned of the dam=ngerrs of returning to New Labour's "centre ground"
Steve and I maybe "disloyal" to this turd but you people are selling out the only alternative to Johnson's policies - a new broom which will sweep the lot away
Starmer has shown he want's to be part of the old guard in Westminster
You are welcome to him
Now will you answer my questions - rhetorical of course, course you won't
Jim
jIm

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 06:01 AM

There is some truth in that, Nigel. Back when I was doing my 'A' levels my school insisted everyone took one in General Studies. I think this was an excellent idea, since it meant people who were very strongly science based like me (my other 'A' levels were Maths, Further Maths, Physics, Chemistry) had to study some literature, architecture, and whatnot, whereas the artistically inclined had to learn some science. Amongst other things we also had to learn some politics, both current and historical. I well remember the teacher saying that the great political strength of the Conservatives was that they were so dedicated to winning that internal divisions could largely be put aside during election campaigns, whereas the Labour party could rarely do this: while all the left disliked the Tories they really hated those of the left who were too left wing or not left wing enough for them. A gross simplification of both parties, of course, but a simplification with more than a grain of truth in it.

All that was pre-Thatcher and Euroscepticism but even there the Tory divisions did not often stand in the way of a united front to get elected.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 06:47 AM

One way ourt I suppoose - to agree with a Tory
Labour has to choose whether it wants to just "win elections" or, by doing so, is going to make a real difference
It had been a chance to bring about significant changes in sociiety over and over and over again and it has failed miserably
There seems little point in voting such a party into office unless it changes its ways - it really is as simple as that
The right purged the pary of left-wing members over and over again, The Young Socialist Groups, The Keep Left crowd - all driven out
Instead we got Callaghan, Blair and Brown
Blair was worst if following Mad Maggie's lead of tying Britain to America via third rate Hollywood actor, Ronnie Reagan - Blair climbed into bed with America's second-worst president, George Dubya, and used Weapons of Mass Destruction as a stimulator
When Corbyn appeared oon the scene, members came flocking back to the party, - this feller will drive the ones away he doesn't actually expel
What kind of party loyalty is that ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 07:02 AM

There will not be an election for some time,unless something unpredictable happens, which often happens , Starmer ties johnson up in knots at PM question time, Johnson does not seem to be handling, covid 19 very well.
Starmer may or may not win the next Election, there is more to winning the next election that winning debates at pm question time.
I think he lacks the appeal to rednacks and some of the people that voted brexit that johnson has.
he may win a proprtion of the centre ground but will that be enough?
now much depends on what happens with the economy.
I think Starmer is just as middle class as Corbyn, but he will lose votes on the left.
We may end up with a labour lib coalition.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 09:15 AM

"The UK government said on Saturday it was pausing its daily updates of the coronavirus death toll after ordering a review of how the data is calculated, following concern that numbers may have been exaggerated.

Academics have said the way that Public Health England (PHE), the government agency responsible for managing infectious disease outbreaks, calculates the figures for England means they may look worse than in other countries of the United Kingdom."

I think that sort of thing is important and worth discussing.   On the other hand I suspect some will be more concerned with why
Len McCluskey is retiring a year early (and the same people may well ignore also be uninterested in why so many senior civil servants are leaving early.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 09:46 AM

Not sure of your point there Mac
We were discussing the fact that the new head of the Labour Party's behavior is driving some of Labour's greatest allies away
Changing the subject shows a disinterest rather than a concern for what should really be 'The People's Party'
You have let this right winger's bullying behaviour through on the nod yet you and others were quite outraged when the same thing was happening in the Tory Party
Why will you not discuss this disturbing subject - I wonder (but maybe I know already)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 10:01 AM

John, we have Sunak, a fairly incompetent chancellor of a few weeks who looks young, slim, smart, thrusting, dynamic, businesslike and cheery, who speaks persuasively (though he's never persuaded me of very much) and who has undoubted charisma. And then we have Sir Keir, who looks stodgy and vacillating and who bends in the breeze. That's the next election sorted for you. So what's YOUR answer to that? By the way, I'm staying in the party and, if I have to, I'll fight tooth and nail to get Starmer elected.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 12:30 PM

I've not had time or energy to read all of today's splurge of posts yet...

So I'll just chip in with..

Are there no youngish charismatic principled streetwise Labour MPs
waiting in the background to take over from Starmer,
as and when required...???

Ideally, a Jewish Labour MP who will stand up to and fight back against
smears and false accusations of antisemitism...

Basically, someone like me;
but younger, more charismatic, more principled, more streetwise, and more Jewish...

I see a fair number of lefty comedians who could tick most of those boxes,
but unfortunately they're not MPs...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 01:53 PM

Phew.. I've just finished reading all today's posts...


Jim - who appointed you Grand Inquisitor Judge,
empowered to condemn all those not as over-zealously 'lefty' as thou...!!!???

Get off your high horse, we can see right up the legs of your jockey shorts...

The tories are lapping up your divisive chest-thumping with glee and gratitude...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 02:01 PM

btw - it was a toss up between "tub thumping" and "chest thumping"..

But I like Jim enough to see him as an elder silver-back gorilla,
staunchly defiant in the face of inevitable extinction...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 02:13 PM

”John, we have Sunak, a fairly incompetent chancellor of a few weeks who looks young, slim, smart, thrusting, dynamic, businesslike and cheery, who speaks persuasively (though he's never persuaded me of very much) and who has undoubted charisma. And then we have Sir Keir, who looks stodgy and vacillating and who bends in the breeze. That's the next election sorted for you. So what's YOUR answer to that?

I completely agree with you about Sunak, Steve. And I don’t have an answer to your question, other than that I don’t believe Rebecca Long-Bailey would be able to deal with Sunak any more than Starmer.

I’m not arguing about who, of the leadership-election candidates, would have made the best leader - there’s nothing to argue about, the Party membership made its democratic choice and it was Starmer. End of.

What I’ve been trying to persuade you and Jim (who never listens to anything anyone says if it doesn’t align with his views) about is that the leader has been elected by a substantial majority in a democratic process. As someone above has pointed out, part of the reason for the Tories’ success in GEs is that, whatever their internal divisions, they present a United from as far as the voting public are concerned at election time. It’s incumbent on Labour voters in general, and Party members in particular, to show loyalty and support for the Party, and that means not undermining and backstabbing the democratically elected leader. It’s called Loyalty, and it counts for a great deal.

By the way, I'm staying in the party and, if I have to, I'll fight tooth and nail to get Starmer elected.

And so you should.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 02:40 PM

"But I like Jim enough to see him as an elder silver-back gorilla,"
I'd hate you be at the butt of your insults if you didn't like me
I think it's a fairly well established tradition on this orum that, whenever someone finds themselves in a corner - go for the throat
It doesn't achieve anything but it helps those at a loss feel better

I thinkk Baccie might be the first to be persuaded that there is not a serious problem with antisemitism - he says he "doesn't know if there is"

When a party has to pick it's representatives on racial or cultral grounds it really is on the skids
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:10 PM

Jim - skids or not..

As pure hearted as we aspire to be, none of us are lucky enough to get through life
without skid-marks..

I'm up for fighting fire with fire;
and if it takes a proper lefty Jewish labour MP as party leader,
willing to risk fighting the pro Israeli smear campaigners...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:13 PM

”I think it's a fairly well established tradition on this orum that, whenever someone finds themselves in a corner - go for the throat
It doesn't achieve anything but it helps those at a loss feel better“

Followed immediately by this piece of ad-hominem trolling nonsense

I thinkk Baccie might be the first to be persuaded that there is not a serious problem with antisemitism - he says he "doesn't know if there is"

Ever heard of the word ‘hypocrisy’, Jim? Google it.

For the record, here’s what I actually said -

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 02:30 PM

And, for the record, I don’t give a flying fuck whether RL-B’s tweet was, or wasn’t, ‘anti-Semitic’ - I’ve deliberately avoided making any judgment about that.”

Hypocrisy and word-twisting. Shameful behaviour Jim. I used to hold you in such high regard too....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 07:51 PM

You said you had no idea Baccie
Name calling isn'r really a subsitiuyte for argument - you really shoul know that
You all have my arguments- where are yours ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 01:46 AM

I think that some of the people who voted for corbyn might now swtch to voting green.
if people want to have a mildly socially democratic party that is marginally to the left of the conservative party that is not prepared to renationalise the railways and tne utility companies, the labour party might as well merge with the liberals. at least opposition to the conservatives would not be split two ways,
the other reason the tories won the last election was the input of UKIP and the pro leave europe voters, not standing in many constituencies and all voting conservative

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 02:56 AM

"I used to hold you in such high regard too...."
Ditto until such things as - "I don’t give a flying fuck whether RL-B’s tweet was, or wasn’t, ‘anti-Semitic’
Surely the sacking of a senior minister should be of interest and concern of all members and supporters
Politicians get away with what they do because too many people "don't give a flying fuck" about too many important things
Corbyn looked as if he might change that - back to Blair's halcyon days, it would appear
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 03:11 AM

a) Tomorrow is the report stage and third reading of the trade bill. It will set the ground rules for what food can be imported, whether this nonsensical dual tariff system will be used, whether selling off parts of the NHS is off the table, and much else.

What it says will affect the future of every person and every business in the country.

The Tories, on page 57 of their manifesto, committed to ensuring the standards would not be reduced. This has been one of the few opportunities for those of us on the left to influence any Tory MP we have by getting them to stand by the commitment they were elected upon.

b) British Airways wants sack most of its staff and re-employ them on poorer contracts. Starmer opened PMQs by calling this out. As expected, the government is content with it and not surprisingly Centrica now wants to do the same, and we can expect a lot of other mass employers to follow.



These are the kind of things I want to discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 03:20 AM

”You all have my arguments- where are yours ?“

You’ve had them, over and over again, but you’re not listening. You’re going to have to find another victim, I’m finished with you. From now on you can rant, preach, misquote, set your traps, and have the last word, to your heart’s content - I won’t be listening either.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 03:25 AM

Coronavirus data to be made available to councils

About time too! I hope every else here has been lobbying for that as well as best they can under the current restrictions. All the councils have been saying they have been working with the proverbial one hand tied behind their back without postcode level data, and obviously they have. There is no way of having a local lock down unless you know the locality, for example: your only alternative is an unnecessarily wide one enclosing the outbreak but much else.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 03:52 AM

"You’ve had them"
You know that's not true - you actually said I wasn't worth respond to
Try again
Why should we support a leader who sacks a senior minister for an "antisemitic tweet" everybody here has said isn't antisemitic - give me a reason o point me to an answer
That action has split the Labor Party and looks like losing the support of The Trades Unions - Labour's main contact with working people in Britain - the founders of the Labour Party and it's mainstay
Not only this, of course; in doing what he did, Starmer has implicated Labour in the antisemitism accusations by mor or less admitting that there is one
In what way is Starmer's behaviour in refusing to sack Steve Reed (for exactly the same behaviour as Long-Bailey) any different from Johnson's refusing to sack Cummings ?
We've slagged off Johnson yet you want us to support Starmer
Your starter for ten - without the childish name-calling, if possible

PFR somewhat childishly compered mt to a "silverback" - I'd be extremely flattered to be put up beside that magnificent creature if I took anything he said seriously any more
One of the great characteristics of that beautiful animal is it's dignity, calmness and its preparedness to fight to defend what it considers important
A little thin on the ground here
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 04:36 AM

I am inclined to agree with Jim. Iknow people on the left in the uk who supported Corbyn, but now have decided to support the green party rather than starmer ,if this leads to a coalition and environmental issuesare implemented they feel this is more worth while.Dmc g , thanks for that info

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 08:45 AM

Jim - I said what I meant.

Get off your high horse.
You are in no sound position to call anyone childish,
with your persistent immature pompous petulant behavior..

You are not as morally superior as you believe yourself to be.
You are in fact now becoming a useful idiot for the far right..
The kind of boorish extreme left zealot stereotype
who drove away vast numbers of working class ex Labour voters
towards the open welcoming arms of far right..

Not towards the Greens, but voting instead for populist boris and ukip...

I withdraw my noble Gorilla comparison..

You are now acting more like a chattering zoo monkey,
playing with itself for attention
in front of an unimpressed audience...

Only you can pull yourself up out of this self indulgent hole
you are obsessively digging for yourself...

You are hell bent on turning mates into enemies...!!!???



Btw.. I did warn that banning right wing members,
might probably lead to habitually argumentative mudcatters turning their invective
inwards onto mates on their own side...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 09:15 AM

I find myself agreeing with Jim as well. My view is that it is 100% certain that Starmer would lose the next election in any case. I'll fight for him, of course, as a party member, but to me, even though I'll have to pretend it isn't, it's a lost cause. So that doubly means that I shouldn't be ditching my principles in order to pander to the Tory press and right-wing voters (and the pro-Israel lobby). If I were to do that I'd have nothing left after the next election.

"Btw.. I did warn that banning right wing members,
might probably lead to habitually argumentative mudcatters turning their invective
inwards onto mates on their own side..."

Well you can say that but you can't demonstrate cause and effect there. Perhaps you're saying it because you want to be right. I haven't particularly noticed any change, except for the far calmer atmosphere in these threads now than you-know-who has been banished.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 09:16 AM

PFR - There are some people who like to argue and entertain others with their arguments. There are some who like to argue and antagonize others. Then there are those who just argue for the sake of it. I suspect it you were to lock Jim in a room on his own he would argue with himself and still deny anything he disagreed with :-D

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:50 AM

If either hof you had a case you would answer the simple questions I have put forward.
They boil down to this - the new leader of the Labour Party has started his career by splitting the party with the unprecedented and totally unjust action of sacking his running mate for supporting something that is true and in doing so has split the party, is likely to drive out all those who joined when Corbyn came to office and stands to break the century old links with the Trades Union movement
I believe that such a ruthlessly dishonest individual is not fit to be leader of The Labour Party and should be replaced
That is how things stand at present, in my opinion - all the personal abuse in the world is not going to change my mind - in fact your behaviour convinces me of its accuracy
Grow up - the pair of you - you never used to behave like this

The Labour Party has been split and stands to be split more - you pair have chosen the saide that has destroyed it as an effective opposition and are arguing to return for blind obedianece to a pseudo Tory leadership again - we all know what that has done to it in the past
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 03:05 AM

”Grow up - the pair of you - you never used to behave like this“

Sadly though, Jim, you have always behaved the way you’re doing now - bombastic, know-all, word-twisting, deliberately provocative. And, since your sparring-partner, Iains, has been suspended, you’ve turned your nasty, vicious, vitriolic attention to those who have tried to be your friends.

I’ve never been suspended from the forum for bad behaviour nor, as far as I know, has pfr. Can you truthfully say the same?

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 04:45 AM

Mor unnecessary insulting and still not a single attempt to answer one of my questions
If I "have always been like this" can I remind you we got on quite well until I began to disagree with what you say - now, all of a sudden, I have become "bombastic, know-all, word-twisting, deliberately provocative."
What's taken you so long to notice that

You obviously are not going to attempt to respond to these questions which leaves me to the conclusion you haven't got any answers - if you had said so in the first place this unpleasantness need not have occurred
I have insulted no-one here, nor have I for a long time
You really need to look at your own behaviour before you criticise that of others

Let's see if anybody else cares to comment on what I have said
Somewhat sadly
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:03 AM

From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:50 AM
If either of you had a case you would answer the simple questions I have put forward.
They boil down to this - the new leader of the Labour Party has started his career by splitting the party with the unprecedented and totally unjust action of sacking his running mate for supporting something that is true and in doing so has split the party,

As I see it (NOT being a member of the Labour Party), Sir Keir Starmer has not split the Labour Party, it was already split, and has been for some time (at least since Blair).

There's that question answered, so you don't need to keep hammering on at it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:29 AM

fair enough, nigel. we shouldn't forget that jeremy corbyn - who i supported- pissed me off when he sacked chris williamson, clive lewis and ken livingstone. he did have principles and honesty but did not have the courage to take on the odious john mann, margaret hodge and others.

and while we are at it, i've long thought that england is in a mess because the tories dealt with farage by adopting rather than challenging his xenophobia and racism. it took a while to dawn on me that that has also been the unspoken tactic of the labour party in recent years. they didn't want to upset gammons and white working class men in northern towns. see where that got us......

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:44 AM

The Labour Paaary was undergoing a well-needed (in my opinion) change under Corbyn - basically, a return to core values - and it was working
All of those groups who had been ousted by those wishing to turn the Party into something else returned in their drove
That is not really a 'split' - it's a way of healing old wounds
All parties are 'split' at present - Lib Dems have their members who yearn for the old days - your own Party is divided into those who support the traditionalists such as those who were surgically removed in the Brexit butchery
The Labour Party divisions pre-date Blair by decades - he was the catalyst
Far too many of those at the top were heavy-handed in removing the opposition to their leadership - this new feller is something else, and he comes at a bad time for the country
It is not time to appease the right anywhere - they are a dangerous lot - whatever shade they come in
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:56 AM

”If I "have always been like this" can I remind you we got on quite well until I began to disagree with what you say - now, all of a sudden, I have become "bombastic, know-all, word-twisting, deliberately provocative."
What's taken you so long to notice that?”

I made allowances for you Jim, I thought “It’s just Jim being Jim”. But you’ve decided to dump your shitty attitude on your friends for no other reason that they don’t see the world through your rabid Left-Wing lens, and you don’t like it when they take umbrage at being lectured, having traps set for them, and non-stop demands being made that they ‘explain themselves‘ as though you’re some sort of Chief Inquisitor.

You’ve turned on your friends Jim. Absolutely shameful, disgusting treachery, and completely unforgivable.

Now fuck off, this is the last time I will respond to any of your horse-shit. Find someone else to victimise for nothing more than having the kind of sensible, balanced view that you clearly despise.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 06:31 AM

Nigel
That reference to 'the right' was not meant to be a pop at you by the way
I've always disageed with you, but that's a long way from associating you with the 'Johnson/Trump' mentalist that is now dominating your party
I've always regarded you as s Tory idealist rather that an advocate of the woest aspects of Toryism - feel happy yo make me wrong
After the last but one French election, Marine LePen called for a consolidation of world-wide right wing forces - recently there have been signs that this is beginning to happen - under Trump
Up to las week Britain was determined to go ahead with the Huawei deal, no matter what Trump thought - now he puts his foot down and the deal is gone
Whatever the rights and wrongs of China, it has not changed - Trump is now calling the shots on Britain's economey

I read this morning that Israel's in intention to annex the Occupied Territories has run into a snag - Netanyahu is awaiting the go-ahead from Trump
This is dangerous concerted extreme right politicking
Starmer has made it clear that he sacked his minister to appease 'The Friends of Israel' within the Labour Party - this involving the Party in the new International consolidation
Dangerous times indeed

Sorry Baccie - I've had enough of you and your mindless personal abuse - go find another victim
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 06:39 AM

corbyn made it clear that he sacked mps in the labour party to appease the friends of israel and the right wing press.....same party same crap. except maybe keir starmer is doing the same dirty work but in a media savvy way.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 07:13 AM

Up to last week Britain was determined to go ahead with the Huawei deal, no matter what Trump thought - now he puts his foot down and the deal is gone.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of China, it has not changed - Trump is now calling the shots on Britain's economy

Up to last week some were determined to go ahead. There were already calls from within the Conservative Party to re-think the decision. The decision to go ahead with Huawei was taken before China decided that Britain no longer had any say/responsibility with regard to Hong Kong. I believe that it is the situation in Hong Kong/China (including with the Uighurs) that has caused a pause, and a re-think, not anything Trump has done/said.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 07:23 AM

Could someone please remind me just how many Labour Party cabinet members resigned or were sacked by Corbyn when he first became leader.

Just to see a balance about "splitting the party" you understand.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 07:35 AM

How many of those were unfairly dismissed for telling the truth Rag
The party was already split and as has been pointed out by Nigel, has been ofor a long ime
What Corbyn tried to do was not to put his own twist on the Party but to re-introduce the reasons the Party had been created in the first place
The overall effect was to inctrease the membership of the Party
Perhaps you'd care to point out any unfair or self-serving dismissals that took place
Jim