BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: weerover
Date: 04 May 20 - 08:59 AM

You haven't told me who the "villain" is, Jim. If you don't want to name names here, you can PM me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 09:31 AM

Happy to talk to you anywhere Weer - you can find reference to his caase here
30 Apr 20 - 05:05 AM
A further clue HERE
It should be remembered that the feller attacking the police was the one claiming they were't doing their duty when a friend attacked an innocent bystander at a swimming pool the same feller supported a perition when the same thug was jailed for interfering with the course of a trial
At a tiime like this, the last thing we need is the undermining of the credibility of the forces of law and order, let alone calling for them to be sued at a time when Britain is probably about to enter a financial slump   
Sorry - didn't really want to pursue this
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 09:50 AM

Indeed, RD. I hope things work out for you. It is a tough time all round, but likely to get a lot tougher, I fear.

I was thinking about another small business nearby. They are a costume-hire company, and something like three quarter of their trade is to individuals attending themed parties, and the remaining quarter to amateur (or occasionally professional) acting companies. Any amateur group performing a play set in historical times within about 70 miles is likely to visit them or one or other of a small number of competitors. They are not your typical high street fancy dress company selling plastic throw aways - they have a number of the original Star Wars costumes for example, costing hundreds to hire.

If the lock down doesn't end with a vaccine that people trust, who is throwing those parties? If am-dram can't perform, they won't be hiring. And in any case, do you fancy wearing something that others have been wearing for hours, even after extensive cleaning?

I can't see they will survive.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 10:53 AM

Just noticed in a live feed that:

… Michie, who is also a member of the Scientific Pandemic Influenza group on behaviour, which feeds into the official government Sage...

That's the Professor Michie, the one with 40 year membership of the Communist Party, you know. So she is clearly acceptable to the Government as a source of advice via SPI-B, with or without Guido's approval.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 May 20 - 10:57 AM

Seems to be a direct personal attack on me! How else can it be read?

I read it as a simple mistake by Jim when copying and pasting the date. His post, immediately before yours, at 4:15 AM, is the one that made the reference to the case.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 May 20 - 11:04 AM

I believed Jim was referring to Aaron Banks.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 12:34 PM

Personal attack - wot me ?
Can't find it so I presume the accusation wa deleted
I certainly made none intentionally here

Worth reminding people that the Communist Party remains a legal organisation in Britain (and will continue to be while it remains as inept and as harmless as it has been for a long time)
Guido, on the other hand, is a convicted criminal blogger with connections to extremist organisations on the fringes of the law and a reputation for supporting fanatical mass murderers of Norwegian extraction
Just thought I'd mention it
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 May 20 - 12:39 PM

It would seem that Pitri Patel is not alone in employing bullying tactics to get her own way.

Conor Burns has had to resign his position as Minister of State for Trade Policy after using House of Commons notepaper to support his fathers dispute over a loan. It is reported he made "veiled threats"

I wonder if his actions will be condemned by all on here.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 12:56 PM

Conor Burns has had to resign his position as Minister of State for Trade Policy

All of the people on this and similar threads probably follow politics a lot more closely than the average UK citizen, but I have to admit my first reaction was: Conor Burns? Who is that? What, Minister? Trade Policy? How is he so anonymous?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 01:11 PM

NASTY PIECE OF WORK - TYPICAL of OUR GLORIOUS LEADERS
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 20 - 08:35 PM

He's an arse, that's for sure. But what Tory MP isn't? I mean, why else would you be a Tory MP?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 May 20 - 09:08 PM

Somebody told me today that liberal Democrats in the U.S. would be considered conservative in the U.K. - and that's something I've heard here over and over again. You mean, like U.S. Democrats are like Tories? Like Boris Johnson?
Seems to me, Boris Johnson and Trump could be twin brothers. And Maggie Thatcher and Ronald Reagan could have been womb-mates.

I've always admired Tony Blair, and can't quite understand why there's so much disdain for him among UK Mudcatters.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 20 - 02:05 AM

joe. could be his support for the iraq war.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:35 AM

Bliar Blair lied to the British people. Sexed up dossiers on weapoms of mass destruction were on his watch. Nothing   less than a   pack of lies to justify an illegal war. He also has to answer questions on the death of Doctor David Kelly, an internationally recognised expert on WMD who held very different views on the potential threat   and readiness of the   Iraqi   Forces compared to Blair
Even members of his own party despise Blair.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:10 AM

Joe, I think you’ll find that most dislike him because of his support for the second Gulf War - y’know, Dubya, the ‘Weapons of Mass Destruction‘ lie, etc. - and also because he veered away from what are regarded as true Socialist principles - by introducing university tuition fees, advancing John Major’s PFI initiative in the NHS, and the sale of half of our gold reserves when the market price was at rock-bottom, etc.

But what Blair had was wide public appeal - whether the hard-lefties like it or not, his personality was a major factor in making Labour electable. People liked ‘our mate Tony’ and Labour’s main problem now is that, in these days of ‘Personality-Politics’, they have no-one with the personal appeal to compete with the image that the Conservative propaganda-machine has managed to falsely create around Johnson, persuading former Labour-voters that a philandering, xenophobic, racist serial-liar, controlled by a sociopathic ‘unelected bureaucrat’ with little dress-sense or interest in personal grooming, is ‘a great guy’, and ‘one of the lads’.

Until Labour find a leader with the same kind of appeal that Blair brought to the party back in the ‘90s - someone who can control the hard-left, make sense of the ‘policy-diarrhœa’ of the last two general elections, and slay the nonsensical ‘Antisemitism’ dragon - I’m afraid they will have to resign themselves to being a (currently very weak) opposition. Sadly, there doesn’t seem to be anyone amongst the hierarchy with the appropriate attributes, which cannot be good for our politics

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:11 AM

"I've always admired Tony Blair, and can't quite understand why there's so much disdain for him among UK Mudcatters."
Not just mMdcatters
He like Thatcher, Enoch Powell and others became an embarrassment to their parties and despised by the people for their having lied and conned their wat to the top
Blair (B-liar) lied about weapons of mass destruction and involved Britain in an oil war that continues to destabalise the planet   
Tories make a big thing of him being 'Labour' (see immediately above) bt, while he may have started his political life with socialist, he gradually becamme a career politician, swung sharp right and out Toried the worst aspects of the Tories
'New Labour' was to Labour ideals as 'National Socialism' was to the real socialism of providing a better life and equality of the People as a whole - a hi-jacking of a title - In some way as genuinely democratic as your own 'Democrats' (look up the true meaning of the term)
"why else would you be a Tory MP?"
Money !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:47 AM

The   average   tory thought thatcher was the best   thing sice sliced bread. She should have a statue in every town and the miracles she performed with the british economy should gain her a sainthood.
All hail the mighty thatcher!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 05:37 AM

Thatcher befriended a proven mass murders, fought to prevent him being tried for his horrific crimes and described him, because of his actions in Chile as "a hero of democracy" - those facts on Thatcher's 'love affair' with a facist dictator have never been disputed, then or since, even by her own party - the leaders of which allowed themselves to be herded into a Westminster Hall draped in crossed Chilean and British flags, to pay tribute to this monstrous thug, finally dropped her like a piece of hot shit and left British humanitarians with one of the fondest memories ever FONDEST MEMORIES EVER
   
The actions Thatcher described as "democratic" were, to overthrow a legally elected and popular government, to murder its leader, to round up many thousands of mainly students and young workers and herd them into Santaigo Stadium where they were tortured and murdered in their uncountable thousands
The young women were all systematically raped, many of them were sexually disfigured with knives and bayonets before having their throats cut
The many thousand dead were never fully counted as most of them became "the great disappeared" - still remembered and mourned in Chile
Folk singer, Victor Jara was indentified as such, singled out and had his hands crushed by a rifle butt, before being murdered

There - but for the grace of what remained of common decency in the Tory Party, would have gone Thatcher's "Democratic Britain" (try visualising defiant miners in place of Chilean students)

Can there possibly ne anybody here who disputes any of that - or who regrets the passing of the threat of Thatcher's "democracy" being foisted on Britain - any takers ??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 05:38 AM

Oh - and does she represent "the avarage Tory's pin-up girls
I would love a "yes" to that one - Nigel, Stanron
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 05:48 AM

Thatcher pin up girl of the tories. The 7th longest serving PM of all time. Still the most popular party in the UK and has driven labour to virtual extinction. A job well done I would say. Now we have the mighty Boris leading us even further away from the scorched earth labour wastelands. He is ever more popular in the polls whereas starmer the charmer is ever declining in popularity,and this is still his honeymoon period. Does not bode well for labour!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:10 AM

Which proves that troll posts don't necessarily have to be in the shape of personal attacks. Infantile provocation is no better, in m'humble...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:24 AM

Having established exactly what Thatcher stood for beyond question I'm delighted to find that Iains and I have now reached mutula agreement on at least this   
Those are the values of the present incumbent in Number 10 and those are the inbred values of the Tory Party - I have little doubt that they are also Iains's own values as he refuses to condemn them or even acknowledge their importance
An excellent way to start today's discussion
I refuse to believe they they are the values of the British people, but I'm prepared to consider any argument

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/tories-have-forgotten-that-thatcher-wasnt-just-a-terrorist-sympathiser-but-close-friends-with-one-10507850.html

THATCHER'S TAKE on DEMOCRACY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:36 AM

I was having a discussion earlier today. The topic for debate is "The new app for coronavirus tracing will develop into an electronic version of a government ID card and be used for such purposes well after the virus threat has been reduced to a low level or eliminated."

Thoughts, please, especially on why this will not happen.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:41 AM

“Thatcher was Britain’s most important politician of the postwar era, her only rival for that title being Clement Attlee, creator of the welfare state. Her critics forget or ignore just how parlous was the state of Britain in 1979, and offer no credible policy alternatives about how the country could have been saved from union tyranny, hugely inefficient and loss-making state-owned industries, the stagnation of enterprise.

Her contribution to making Britain once more a viable proposition is almost impossible to overstate"

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 07:16 AM

As is a reply to her tendcy towards fascism - apparently
Mussolini made Italy's trains run on time until he and his lover were strung up to a lamp-post by the Italian people
Hitler was beloevd by the German people until he was forced to take a cyanide pill in bunker in Berlin
You missed a bit out of yyour quote, by the way - it continues:
By her third term, she was displaying a worsening stridency and even irrationality, vividly reflected in stubborn adherence to the poll tax when its unpopularity was manifest, and in her opposition to German reunification. Such behaviour caused her downfall.
None of which alters the facts about her fascism, of course

You appear not to want to defend her behaviour but to use it to denigrate the British people
Game, set and match, I thing
Over and out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 07:25 AM

You appear not to want to defend her behaviour but to use it to denigrate the British people ???????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 07:26 AM

Mac
The exitance of other forms of information gathering, from internet gathering, mobile phone and computer tracking and commonplace street and inside cameras, along with recorded information, from councils, the police, Social services, MI5, Supermarkets... et al, virtually renders the carrying of identity cards irrelevant - here certainly - more so in the US
Things once invented about the old Soviet Union during The Clod War are and a part of everyday life in 'The Free West' for a long time
Nowadays, you can't wipe your arse without some official somewhere knowing which hand you used
Too late to worry about it now, I'm afraid

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 07:36 AM

The United Kingdom last had compulsory national identity cards during the Second World War when they were introduced for security purposes. They were introduced under the the National Registration Act 1939, but were abandoned seven years after the end of that war, in 1952, amid widespread public resentment.
Labour made an attempt to reintroduce ID cards but the incoming Tory government repealed the legislation.
Any further attempts to introduce compulsion will e met with the same resistance.
As "The Prisoner said":
I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 08:21 AM

I am now getting messages from Gmail asking me if I would like to send a reminder to the person I wrote to a few weeks earlier that they haven't replied yet
Worth a book if George Orwell hadn't pipped us all at the post seventy years ago
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 05 May 20 - 08:27 AM

Iains already declared game, set, match. Yet the beat goes on?
In this game there is no such thing as checkmate.
Should we wish for a checkmate?
In 1349 not even a 60%
death rate pandemic
defeated England.
England won.

Who wins now?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 10:32 AM

"In this game there is no such thing as checkmate."
There shouldn't be but unfortunately when your points are ignored and stonewalled you are reduced to just posting what you believe to be true to whoever is interested and just accept that those you address your arguments to have no answer
Not a satisfactory way to debate but a victory of logic of sorts
Would that things were different
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:23 PM

So now it's been announced that the UK has the highest number of deaths from Corona virus in Europe.

I wonder if our supporters of the present government consider that they could have dealt with the situation in such a way that some of these deaths could have been avoided.



Note to Iains: I don't include you in this and I've no desire to waste my time reading anything you post so save yourself the effort.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:25 PM

So much doom and gloom. Isn't their a table for those who have recovered?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:36 PM

The question we have to ask Bonzo is would there be less gloom and doom had the government responded differently. It has been suggested that this is the case and thus the government should be held responsible for some, not all, of the deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:47 PM

I regard 30,000 deaths, with no foreseeable end to the ever-rising toll, as very good cause for doom and gloom. Who but a hard-hearted, soulless monster wouldn’t?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:53 PM

And of the deaths, how many were fat with otherwise big health problems, how many were boozers with big health problems, how many were smokers with big health problems, how many simply refused to comply with distancing rules????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 02:00 PM

Note to Iains: I don't include you in this and I've no desire to waste my time reading anything you post so save yourself the effort.

You   obviously do, otherwise why   comment???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 20 - 02:02 PM

Ah, I forgot to include ‘victim-blamer’ in that list of nauseatingly-unpleasant character-defects.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:08 PM

it is now being reported that SAGE got documents today showing that false negatives and false positives will be a problem. It should not exactly be news to them as I first pointed out the problem here on 24 Apr 20 - 03:34 AM, and it was not great insight of mine: it is basic stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:09 PM

And of the deaths, how many were fat with otherwise big health problems,..............
"Of those requiring advanced respiratory treatment, 39% were obese, compared to 25% who had a healthy weight. Of those needing basic respiratory support, 37% were obese. Again, 25% had a healthy weight.

Further studies in the UK, New York, and China have also suggested an association between obesity and the coronavirus, and are being looked at by British ministers and experts.

A study by the Coronavirus Clinical Characterisation Consortium of people hospitalised with the virus in Britain found that the risk of death was 37% higher in obese patients.

Another study in New York found that severely obese people were six times more likely to be hospitalised with COVID-19. Obese people were four times more likely.

A study in China found that people with obesity could be three times more likely to develop severe pneumonia.

According to a report published by the Italian National Institute of Health, a study on a small sample of COVID-19 patients found that obesity was an underlying condition in some of those under the age of 50 who died, but the report doesn't draw any conclusions either way.

SAGE scientists are exploring potential “mechanisms” that could show a causal relationship between obesity and having more severe symptoms of COVID-19, including the potential for the increased inflammatory response in obese people to exacerbate symptoms of the virus.

Sources familiar with SAGE’s work stressed to BuzzFeed News that there was currently not sufficient evidence to prove that obesity itself resulted in increased mortality, and that more research needed to be done. They said that severely obese people are often likely to have other comorbidities that could be responsible for any worse symptoms.

Older people, men, black and Asian people, and those from socially deprived backgrounds were also seeing worse outcomes, the ICNARC data showed."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:38 PM

Thank you Iains, that's very interesting indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:54 PM

Bonzo, Irrespective of other issues their deaths have been recorded as being caused specifically by the virus. They may not have died (yet) had the government reacted in a speedy manner.

The "yet" is there because we all die eventually, we just like to put if off for as long a possible, normally.

So how about addressing how the government have signally failed in their responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:59 PM

Incidentally Farage has been "spoken to" by the police for visiting Bournemouth. He claimed he was a "key worker" !!!

What an a...……………… !

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:01 PM

Well it's hardly surprising, as obesity is quoted as an underlying condition with regard to the aggravation of heart disease, diabetes, etc., as well. Making the point that obese people may suffer worse from Coronavirus is valid. But just leave it there, eh? Well, unless you want to blame "fatties" for eating too many pies and fish suppers, of course, and telling us that they deserve all they get....

As for politicians and telling lies, well of course. But using the phenomenon to make some kind of distinction twixt Tory and Labour is simply dishonest. The other day, apropos of the last day of April, we were told by the Tories that the 100,000 tests per day target had been achieved, but it was a bare-faced lie, as around a third of those "tests" were merely test kits still in transit. Since then, the testing numbers have failed to reach that target every day, as I recollect. Best to accept that, to be a success in politics, you have to be quite good at spinning, bending the truth, putting on the best gloss, accentuating the positive...and, why, even telling lies...

By the way, almost every Tory MP supported Tony Blair in voting for the war. Millions of us on the street, holding hands, singing songs and waving banners, knew bloody well that Blair was lying. Perhaps the Tories were all just a bit too thick to see it. Or, instead, rather liked the idea of kicking Iraqi arse...

I can't decide which is worse, lying or hypocrisy...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:16 PM

Smoking is frowned upon and now banned in many places because it causes canncer and many other medical conditions. Why should
obesity be given a clean slate? it is equally damaging to health and caused by gluttony (apart from a minority with medical conditions)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:43 PM

UK wants to improve privacy safeguards for the tracking application. You can read the reasons, but an important one, as I said earlier, is that if people don't trust the app will protect privacy, less will download it, so it will be less effective. This is a human factors issue, less than a technical one.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:02 PM

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're a man.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're old.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're poor.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're black.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you live in an urban area.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you live in a care home.

If you're overweight, or if you smoke, or if you drink too much, or if you sleep on the street, or if you don't exercise, sure, I'm going to give you a clean slate. Why? Because, like all the rest of us, you didn't live your life making a calculation about a virus that suddenly threatens us. In some ways I could be given to thinking that it's a shame that the virus doesn't preferentially attack the intolerant, the privileged and the bigoted. But I'll go high and, well, think like a human being instead.

Grand if you see anger in this post.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:05 PM

And, by the sound of it, you are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're living in the UK. And the UK has been run by Tories for the last ten years.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:22 PM

Thank Clapton for that !!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:32 PM

But I do blame the government for not ruling a weekly intake of treacle pudding and custard as added protection against the virus!!