BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:16 AM

On Jim's story, from The Times:
The Conservative Party accepted a £50,000 donation from a pharmaceutical boss involved in price gouging the NHS, The Times can report.
Amit Patel, who accepted a five-year ban last week from standing as a director for breaking competition law, donated the money during the June 2017 general election campaign led by Theresa May. The donation was made a year after The Times named Auden Mckenzie, the company Mr Patel had founded, as being among several businesses that had hugely increased the prices of old drugs.
The companies had been able to do so by exploiting a loophole in NHS pricing rules that meant drugs were no longer subject to a profit cap if they were “debranded” and sold under a generic name.

This form of price-gouging is common, and a last chance for the drug companies to make money from their drug research.
The drugs had been 'debranded' which means that their patents had expired. A more savvy government, or competitor business, could have 'reverse engineered' the drugs and competed on price, saving the NHS a large sum. If you're the sole provider of a specific drug then you have a monopoly. Once the drug is a 'generic' then the action of the free market comes into play, and the business that can provide a (suitably tested) version of the same drug at a better price will become the main supplier.

For a fuller treatment of this scam see Prescriber

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:21 AM

Boris Johnson on Have I got news for you, talking about his chat with Darius

Boris and the Elephant Trap

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:23 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:08 AM
Er, the story is true, Nigel.

The story may be based on some facts, but inventing a quote, which may or may not reflect what was said at the time does not make the story 'true'.
Even according to DMcG's quote of Wiki: Guppy wanted to send someone to physically assault Collier. Johnson never discovered the reporter's address, and the attack never took place, but a tape of the conversation was leaked to the press in June 1995.
The address was never given, and no attack happened. The Newsthump 'article' is a waste of space, and a waste of all our time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:24 AM

Wiki: "During a telephone call in 1990, Guppy asked Boris Johnson (then a journalist at The Telegraph) to provide the home address of News of the World journalist Stuart Collier. Collier had been making enquiries into Guppy's background, and in response, Guppy wanted to send someone to physically assault Collier. Johnson never discovered the reporter's address, and the attack never took place, but a tape of the conversation was leaked to the press in June 1995."

And on the Guardian website (article by Simon Murphy, 14 July 2019, "A couple of black eyes..." Note the existence of a thoroughly incriminating transcript of a phone call between Guppy and Johnson, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 06:42 AM

It is worth listening to that "Have I got News for You" clip linked to below. It is notable that Johnson does not say he didn't give the address because it would have been wrong to do so, or that he felt it would risk an illegal action. The only reason he gives for not passing the address over was his incompetence as a journalist so he didn't know the address.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:00 AM

"The address was never given, and no attack happened. The Newsthump 'article' is a waste of space, and a waste of all our time."

I am a tad surprised by your approach here Nigel.

It someone were to have a similar conversation about a terrorist attack but that attack never took place are you suggesting we should ignore that conversation?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:00 AM

I duplicated your wiki piece, DMcG. Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:08 AM

Meanwhile, back at the press conferences: no scientists present on Friday, none last night. Anyone care to place a bet for this evening?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:09 AM

As for "inventing quotes," it's what satirical websites such as Newsthump and Daily Mash do all the time. It's what Steve Bell does in his Guardian cartoons. We're supposed to read them in the knowledge that the kernel of the story is true but the surrounding embellishments are satirical - but also, possibly, instructive. We're not really meant to read them in Mr Spock mode.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:19 AM

"On Jim's story, from The Times:"
I'm grateful for the added information Nigel, but it hardly addresses the question
Your party came to power with the help of a donation from a criminal whose scam cost him £15m to get clear of
I realise that Britain is being defrauded by many such scammers but are the British people deserving of a Government who comes to power with the aid of dirty money defrauded from the N.H.S. ?
I wouldn't have thought so, but I don't live there any more
It's rather like the obvious Brexit fraudster who was let off the hook because there was 'not enough evidence to make it worthwhile pursuing the case'
There's a good old saying that has to apply to politicians - "Justice has to be seen to be done" otherwise those "not proven" can never be trusted
That's the way politics used to work
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:26 AM

that was a strange wee episode. when asked for proof that Boris Johnson and friend had the intention to attack a journalist and then that proof was supplied - that wasn't accepted. even when johnson admitted it and complained that he was stitched up. really? what more evidence do you require? and his whole attitude there is revealing in itself - with all the evidence of lying, evasivness and entitlement that we have come so familiar with.

surely anyone who may have voted for him or his party can now accept that you have a thoroughly disreputable and clueless eejit for a leader. or failing that - he's just a wrong 'un. i'd have thought that maybe conservative party supporters would be quietly looking to replace as soon as they can, for the good of the party if nothing else.

it's just sad for you and tragic for the rest of us that you have kicked out any MP who made sense and at least pretended to have the interests of the country at heart

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 07:48 AM

Watching Nigel the Bellydancing Nitpicker, wriggling and writhing in a desperate, and completely failed, attempt to (as usual for a Tory) defend the indefensible is even funnier than the Newsthump piece itself. Best laugh I’ve had for ages, made even better by its coming from a Tory Stooge.

The incident was documented, reported, the tape was played on TV and radio and, even better, The Bellydancing Nitpicker can listen to it here.

Bollocks? BOLLOCKS? WTF? And what a lovely bunch of people you pimp for, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 08:10 AM

Clever analogy from Raggytash, which set me thinking; some time back, hardly a week went by without the State Organ, BBC, reporting that a plot or two, planned by some Terrorist organisation or another, had been foiled by some official body or other just in the nick of time. All these nefarious types we've been reminded of so incessantly have been remarkably quiet over the last year, it seems; curious, since a time of confusion and distraction would seem to offer various advantages to law-breakers of all kinds.
Just for Americans, that might be Satire. Or maybe not....

ABCD.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 08:19 AM

The Government has announced that it has changed its mind and is cancelling the plan to let children return to school
A slight improvement on "Monday - whoops I meant Wednesday" I supposed
Must make a list of breweries not to go to piss-ups in !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 20 - 01:28 PM

The colston statue appalling vandalism thing...

If Banksy had staged the toppling and river dumping as a cheeky theatrical performance art event..

The tory press would be fawning all over it,
and estimating how many millions the rubbished statue would be worth at fine art auction...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 05:36 AM

Great to see that racist looter Cecil Rhodes is due for the chop in Oxford - who next THAT HIDEOUS MONSTROSITY IN WESTMINSTER MAYBE ?
CAN'T SEE WHY NOT, THE WAY HE TREATED THE COLONIALS
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 06:12 AM

The problem with any statue - Colston, Rhodes, Churchill, Harris, or pretty much anyone at all - is that the statue is almost invariably idolising one aspect of their lives and ignoring all the rest. So there is good reason to have a statue of Churchill because of his role in WW2. But if you do, you should expect the Irish to remember the Black and Tans, the Australians Gallipoli, women his opposition to women's votes, India his role in partition, and so on. And it is right that you should learn these views are as valid as your own.

What the best response is will vary depending on the situation, but I find plaques and museums generally better than simply removing the references. In the case of the concert hall, for example, I would prefer a notice inside explaining the previous name and why it was changed, rather than just changing it. If it is not a problem for shipping, I would see little harm leaving Colston's statue where it is and adding a plaque telling the whole story, including Floyd and the events leading up to the removal of the statue. 'In the water adjacent to this plaque is a statue of ... "

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 06:36 AM

I posted this in response to Bonzo in the Black Lives Matter thread. I worry about making that thread, spurred by the murder of George Floyd, too anglocentric. I suppose my post belongs more here.

" Here's the thing about statues, Bonzo. The people who are represented by statues in public places are people who we are supposed to celebrate, who are supposed to have achieved great things. But the people who decide who's worthy of the accolade are generally the establishment. So the statues are put up, often with a little plaque telling us of the great achievements. Any plaque accompanying any statue of Churchill will say what a great war leader he was. What it won't tell us is that he was also a racist, a little Englander and an arch-misogynist who was responsible for the Dardanelles fiasco that killed tens of thousands of our young men (including my great uncle Jimmy, so call me biased). The statue of Colston in Bristol had four plaques depicting various heroic scenes, but one of them bore the words "Erected by citizens of Bristol as a memorial of one of the most virtuous and wise sons of their city". Well he founded schools and almshouses and was generally a fine philanthropist (so was Jimmy Savile, I should like to remind you). What the plaque doesn't tell you was that he made his money to pay for those things via his slaving company, an enterprise that enslaved at least 100,000 people into misery and killed around 20,000 of them who were unceremoniously pitched overboard when they died. For years there has been argument in Bristol as to how the plaque should be reworded, but nothing has happened. There has also been a petition signed by tens of thousands to have the statue removed. No response to that either. Frustrating, innit.

So to those people who bleat that tearing down statues is destroying history, etc., I'd say that real history is a damn sight more honest than those statues which are essentially saying that the good that men do lives after them but the evil is oft interred with their bones. You'd take your child out of any school that proudly insisted on teaching history in that extremely partial way. It's a thoroughly disingenuous claim propagated by mostly people on the right. I've repeatedly asked about what you thought of Saddam's statue being torn down. I wonder what you might have thought if those huge street portraits of Mao or Stalin, confronting you round every corner, had been vandalised or torn down by protesters. They would have needed to be a damn sight braver than the Bristol protesters. And that's something to contemplate as well."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 07:27 AM

I see that both the health and education secretaries are twisting the scientific advice excuses they have used for the last three months. The R rate is no longer important. 2 metres doesn't really mean 6' 6". What a shower. Just you watch, Covid-19 is about to be renamed cudley kitten syndrome and Boris has been instrumental in saving the galaxy while battling the evil European empire. And the idiots who believe the three word spin will continue to fall for it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 07:38 AM

"Churchill because of his role in WW2."
It needs to be remembered who these people were and what they stood for - all this individuals may have done some good but - as someone once said, "The evil that man do live after them" as well
The Churchill statue has been daubed with paint by the Welsh before now by people who remember his part in the 'Tonypandy Massacre'
I wasn't being serious about his statue - I was a wartime baby and have reason to be grateful to his role in WWI", but even so, as someone passionately committed to anti-fascism, I find it difficult to forget his support for the philosophy of supporting Hitler's Germany as "a bulwark against the creeping menace of Bolshevism"   
I regard Churchill's wartime contribution as reparation for helping support the rise of Nazism in the first place
These things are complicated - I'm sure you'll find statues to Leopold in Belgium - the imperial rubber entrepreneur who sent ten million Congolese to their deaths in pursuit of profit and had the hands removed of millions of workers who didn't meet their quota
Personally - I wouldn't remove these statues - I would turn them into displays of their inhumanity by surrounding them with effigies of their victims in chains, or being flogged, or sold.... that would tell it as it was
When it comes to what is happening at present, it is fully understandable when Blacks fighting for their place in the sun wish to remove statues honouring those who helped start the injustices they are trying to end
Would you be happy to see a statue of Mussolini outside the Italian Embassy in London, put there because "he made the Italian trains run on time?"
I was interested to read in The Times this morning the list of Statues and Monuments being 'looked at' or their past 'contributions to mankind

Drake - pioneer of te Slave Trade
Thomas Picton, Governor of Trinidad, for the brutality his administration meted out
Cecil Rhodes - self explanatory
Lord Kitchener - for introducing concentrations camps to the world
Gladstone for his support of Slave owners
Robert Peel for his opposition to the abolition bill
Robert Dundas for delaying that bill

I have little doubt that that list will grow and grow - like Topsy
We live in a society that honours greed and ruthlessness - some of us would like that to end - we have to start somewhere

I'm not Irish but I'd happily give one of my kidneys to see a statue of Sir Charles Trevelyan standing on the heap of the victims of the Irish Famine victims he brought about through his solution to 'The Irish Question'   
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 08:42 AM

Say WHAT ???

Donald Trump’s Scottish golf courses are expected to get a tax rebate of nearly £1m as part of a government bailout for tourism businesses hit by the coronavirus crisis, the Guardian can reveal.

The Trump Organization’s golf resorts in Aberdeenshire and Turnberry will benefit from emergency funding from the Scottish government worth £2.3bn, which includes waiving the property taxes paid by hospitality, leisure and retail businesses this year.

Guardian 10 Jun 20

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 09:35 AM

"I worry about making that thread, spurred by the murder of George Floyd, too anglocentric. I suppose my post belongs more here."

threads might tend to become a tad anglocentric
while our yank buddies are tucked up asleep in their warm cosy beds,
and we are wide awake..

and .. then vice versa...

Time zones are unfortunately one of the practical inconveniences of not being flat earthers...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 11:18 AM

As I've written elsewhere, a statue of the Duke of Sutherland, perched high on a massive pedestal itself set on a hill, has been dominating the town of Dornoch, Scottish Highlands, since the mid nineteenth century; his role in what are familiarly known as "The Highland Clearances" should place that statue squarely among the list now being virtuously compiled. Scottish people who still have the knowledge of that part of their country's history have long called for its removal; for the most part, these efforts have been reasoned and legal - and consistently rebuffed - and none of the attempts at more direct action has yet been successful.Well, it's a colossal lump of stuff. I'd say that efforts to remove this reminder that some are born to own the land, the rest of us to work it, have been made for even longer than, for example, the First Nations peoples of North America have been trying to secure better lives for themselves and their families. While in Britain attention is now being widely drawn to such reminders of oppression and exploitation, and in some cases of who and which group still holds the whip-hand, it does seem that a disturbing agenda has become fashionable, that is, to decry any reminder of oppression which is not solely focused on Slavery and on the Slave Trade. Strange, but then, as politicians have known for longer still, an enthusiastic mob with loud enough voices and low enough intellects can be led by their collective noses, as asses are. Keep the pot boiling, reward the right journalists, and soon enough that mob will be insisting that two and two make five if they're told to do so (or any other absurdity chosen), and howl down anyone who dares question the latest orthodoxy cast before "the swinish multitude".

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 11:36 AM

ABCD - it's simple enough to understand, the white hot spotlight is on race right now...

Which more than deserves it's turn on the justice bandwagon

Last year it was trans issues,..

The year before.. well.. I forget which one..

Obviously, as a lefty, I'd be happier if the class struggle wasn't constantly being fragmented
into competing media PR promoted higher priority lobbying issues..

But unfortunately, life's a bit shite like that...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 12:36 PM

Just a thought about statues.

I wonder how many people could name all the statues in their own town and I wonder just how much of the history of the individuals they know.

Personally I know next to bugger all about the statues in the towns I have lived in.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 12:41 PM

"I wonder how many people could name all the statues in their own town "
TRY THIS FOR SIZE BLUE EYES
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 01:37 PM

Heh! That could, happily perhaps, be taken to symbolise something about being able to muffle voices, for a while, but the music lives on...
I could put names to almost every statue in every major Scottish town, and know at least something about any historical personality thus represented and commemorated. However, I do recognise that this is indeed unusual now and proceeds from a personal interest rather than the kind of "Cultural Capital" which could formerly be expected of any educated person; what's worse is the widespread attitude of indifference now so often encountered. One time, some forty years back it would have to be, and during a break for a flask of tea and a wee roll-up, I was recounting to three fellow "casual" labourers something-or-other amusing, or surprising, about Scotland, or Europe maybe, in the eighteenth century. The oldest - in his thirties or forties and therefore older than I, and now, I think, wiser - said indulgently, with a look of amused pity, "Professor, what you dinnae realise is, naebody's interested in that sortay thing".
True that the current explosion of interest in certain statues has been both encouraged and, it seems, steered by media attention. Unfortunate that a likely consequence of attention being so concentrated on that issue is, once a few tons of bronze and marble have been tumbled in various locations, and some politically expedient legislation hurriedly enacted, institutions like certain banks, insurance companies, auction-houses and even churches will continue quietly to do business without much attention, if any, having being turned to the forensic investigation of their "links to Slavery and the Slave Trade". Relevant to the Stately Homes of England too, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 01:59 PM

Not really that difficult Jim in a tiny town in the back end of nowhere that has a festival dedicated to the man who is probably a major source of income to the town.

Have a think back to Liverpool or London and do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 02:20 PM

There's a diabolically bad 'modern art' statue commemorating Frank Foley in Highbridge Somerset...

It was always good for a laugh on the way from the railway station to
Burnham on Sea Folk Fest...

This statue probably does not do for the town's pride
what the local fundraisers had intended...???

But it's certainly memorable...

https://www.jonathan-sells.com/project/frank-foley-sculpture/

The trouble with statues raised in your honour,
is you are usually too long dead
to say you think it's crap art...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 10 Jun 20 - 03:13 PM

Well, Voltaire was shown either an architectural drawing of his own proposed Mausoleum, or perhaps the "work in progress". He said that he couldn't wait to try it out.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 05:00 PM

in our town - away from the main street - there is a very small statue of wordsworth as a wee boy. and the house where he grew up is preserved as when he was boy. (i'll be walking by his house in a few minutes when i take my dog out) we also have a massive statue of 'Mayo' which dominates the town . he was an irish lord who was viceroy of india back in the empire days. he was also our mp. there is little evidence that he visited (i'm sure his days were spent in london , dublin or inda) or did anything for the town

anyway, i'm not keen on wordsworth's writing but have no objection to preserving his history with the town. yes, i would like to see Mayo removed but again i'm not really bothered as i sense the locals are quite fond of the statue, while we may know little about the man it represents.

if we need a statue at all in place we could have ben stokes - i reckon the freddie truman stutue in skipton is really good. i'm sure both these cricketers have their faults but at least they weren't responsible for the deaths and suffering of many thousands of Indian people.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 07:15 PM

That's "The Pickled Earl", isn't it? Didn't know his title, just that there was some Irish Ascendancy type who became Viceroy of India, was assassinated and, rather like Nelson, made his homeward voyage in a cask of rum.
While this is apart from the principal issues, there is one comparatively recent tendency in public statuary which can be seen as political in a more civic sense than usual, a tendency exemplified by such statues as that of Willie Clancy, pictured in the link posted by Jim Carroll on 10th June, or those of Kavanagh, Joyce and - in a related though not identical way - Molly Malone, just to keep with Irish Literature in these three. There are a number of works in Scotland, too, in which the tendency is also seen; Robert Ferguson in Edinburgh, Robert Burns at "The Birks of Aberfeldy", an anonymous South African woman again in Edinburgh.
The obvious feature of some of these, perhaps also of the Wordsworth statue mentioned above, that the artist is represented as engaged in a characteristic, everyday pursuit which the passer-by seems to discover, to intrude upon, isn't actually the "tendency" I mean. It's the fact that none of these works (I'm making an assumption that the Wordsworth one is something like a small, seated statue of another Irish writer, Padraig Colum), whatever the subject, wherever the location, none of these works has a pedestal. None of these figures is raised above us so that we literally look up to them for generations after their bones were interred. Many are the photographs, I'm sure, of people happily sitting beside the one, or striding down the Canongate with another, or, in one case, recording a happy moment of poetic lese majeste as someone leans over Burns's shoulder to suggest a better rhyme....
Not one has a pedestal. Not one of them looks down the nose at us. Not one, then, fits the long-established civic pattern, where "The Great and the Good" fix an admonitory and controlling gaze upon us, from their sightless sockets. And, as has become very quickly evident, not all of them are still universally admired - if they ever were. As an English writer of reason, and of good common sense, wrote some two centuries ago,
"A long habit of not thinking something wrong, is not sufficient to make it right".
Good Luck.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 07:47 PM

The Eric Morcombe is grounded on the pavement like the rest of us hoi polloi..

the Billy Fury is up on a circular 'stage'..

The David Bowie - ground level - but looks rubbish..

The Marc Bolan bust on a memorial headstone.. could be anyone with long curly hair..

Hit or miss...

Me, I'd be happier with more statues celebrating 'great' figures of popular culture
who genuinely brought years of joy to us masses...

Don't matter how good or evil celebrated individuals were in life,
at the end of the day, all statues are pigeon toilets...

Daily Mail - "Treasonous militant Leftist pigeons desecrate our greatest hero Churchill.."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 07:49 PM

"White Doves vow to protect Winston's statue from BLM pigeon vandals and thugs.."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 07:56 PM

Last before one, brilliant post, pfr.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 01:57 AM

i hadn't thought about that 'rule over us' statue style, but a good general point about which are more troublesome for us modern day citizens. we could have a theme park for torelock tuggers who could wander about looking at horses' bollocks with a work sheet -'who is on the horse/plinth? ' 'who did he oppress? 'how many people died as a result of his efforts?.....'how many children did he have (tricky one)

then 'how many horses in the park'
'how many women in the park?'
'how many non-british in the park?'
'how many non ruling class in the park'?
how did they get their power.....are they still exploiting you? do they represent you in any way?......

needs some work....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 02:06 AM

actually, i've just remembered a trip to (Red) Bologna last year. there is a big, broad plinth at the top of the tall, steep terrace. this used to have a large statue of mussolini on his horse. bologna fans told us that his statue had been pulled down and il duce's head had rolled down the terrace onto the pitch where it had been kicked around by supporters. sounds good to me - i'll check it on wiki

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 03:04 AM

"Me, I'd be happier with more statues celebrating 'great' figures of popular culture"
Why - their reward rest nestle very comfortably in their bank accounts ?
I found it symbolic when I discovered a self-built monument to one of those over-paid, under-talented people, Tommy Hicks (Steele) - sited in the front drive of his mansion in Teddinton guarded by electric gates and a ten foot spiked fence so those who made him wealthy couldn't get near it
Hopefully, when the world is made a fairer place, these monuments to the pampered and inequality will be carried down to the Thames or Mersey and placed where they belong
The old Soviet Union may have had all the growing pains of a people attempting to make the world a fairer place and those flws may have lost them their way, but THEY HAD THEIR PRIORITIES RIGHT WHEN IT CAME TO HONOUR
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Monique
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 03:07 AM

Mussolini's head and for those who know Italian here they tell that the head was tied to a long rope and dragged across Bologna streets then left somewhere. Some say it was "rescued" and kept in a private museum but the fact is nobody knows where it is now. Maybe Dan Brown could write a book...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 03:31 AM

On another topic: it's a good wheeze of Gove's not to have the checks on lorries coming into the UK for six moths or so after Jan 2021, is it not? Even though the EU will undoubtedly retain its checks to main the market integrity.

Let's think of lorries and flows. Kirchhoff's Laws and all that. The net flow of lorries across the Channel must be zero. If not, we either run out of lorries entirely, or they all end up in the UK.   By the same law, the rate of lorries leaving a queue must match or exceed the number joining it (over a suitable time interval), otherwise the queue becomes arbitrarily long.

This means having no checks on goods coming into the UK ultimately doesn't help: the dominant term will be the greater of the EU and UK handling time.    As a rough and ready approximation, there are no lorries available to bring goods into the UK, because they are all stuck trying to get out of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 03:36 AM

I was somewhat horrified to find our tour guide several years ago eulogizing Mussolini as our coach drove through one of the Towns most associated with him at the southern tip of Lake Garda
A similar thing happened on a trip to Rome some years earlier with a massive monument still standing in all its glorification - as 'Eternal' as the city itself
HERE
Fasists in Spain are fighting to make Franco as powerful as he ever was, even after the HIDDEN ATROCITIES

Some of the bereaved families in Britain demanding an enquiry into how the pandemic is still being mishandled looks like they might turn themselves into an action group
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 07:05 AM

At - last, the Government are getting their priories right
Headline in The Times this morning - "Johnson tells Britons" - Get out and shop" - for fuck's sake
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 10:35 AM

Jim - society needs statues..

..without them, where else would pissed-up students
put traffic cones on the way home from parties...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 10:39 AM

"where else would pissed-up students
put traffic cones"
Why not on their heads - I have jaundiced views about the self indulgent behaviour of students - probably sour grapes
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 10:49 AM

Jim - alright then, let's be more egalitarian..

..pissed up youths..



As usual I was being factious, but at the same time semi serious,
when I expressed a preference for statues celebrating pop culture personalities
over the establishment 'great and good'...

I'm actually in two minds about street monuments / street Art..

On one hand I think it's a good idea to make places more fun to be in,
on the other hand, a waste of public money,
when there are so many more pressing priorities...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 01:28 PM

I actually don't mind street art when it means something worthwhile - graffiti could be street art when nudged to express the artist rather than their fatuous heroes - I love Banksie
Some statuary have stories behind them -
There's one of a general on a horse behind the St George's Hall in Liverpool, whose creator committed suicide by diving head first off the top of it when he realised he'd put the spurs on it upside down
Destroying these things isn't a new thing - when we went around Egypt the archaeologist guide told us that so many of the faces of the statues hadn't been damaged by age or my weather but by the Coptic Christians who took over from the pharaohs because they didn't like the idea of 'false Gods' gazing down on them
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 02:36 PM

Egypt the archaeologist guide told us that so many of the faces of the statues hadn't been damaged by age or my weather but by the Coptic Christians who took over from the pharaohs because they didn't like the idea of 'false Gods' gazing down on them

Great that you had an 'archaeologist' as a guide.
A shame that he didn't seem to know that the last pharaoh (Cleopatra) died 30 years BC, so Coptic Christians could not have taken over from the pharaohs.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 02:49 PM

Nigel - are there treatments for rampant point scoring pedantry...???

It's worth googling...


A short period of 30 years or so of Egyptian rulers, over two millennia ago,
is of no interest to most well balanced normal folks in a general conversation
about the here and now...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 04:22 PM

A short period of 30 years or so of Egyptian rulers, over two millennia ago, is of no interest to most well balanced normal folks in a general conversation about the here and now...

No, but it should have been important to a self-proclaimed archaeologist. And the period between the pharaohs and Coptic Christians should have been at least 60 years.

Of course, it could be deliberate lies. A quick Google of "Tour Guides" and "Lies" provides very fertile ground.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jun 20 - 04:55 PM

aaaaaaagggghhhhh...!!!!!!!