BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 07:51 AM

I would care to point nothing out to you at all. You don't listen.

In the past few weeks you have not only pissed me off completely, you have done to same to DtG and now Backwoodsman and Punkfolkrocker.

You are rapidly running out of people who have supported you in the past and your too fucking arrogant to realise it.

Very soon you will be completely on your own. A pariah.

Before you reply with your usual invective take some time to consider what I have written.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:07 AM

ken livingstone.....chris williamson.....clive lewis? there may be more. i don't think you are listening jim. it would be a real shame for us to go on with this 'i'm done with you.....i'm ignoring you....' nonsense. we have been here before and it's really tedious and depressing. all of us in the Judean people's front, people's front of judea and all other previously stomped out mini-groups of splitters need to get a grip and to try to forge some solidarity to fight the dangers we face.

and don't give me this keir starmer is just the same as boris johnson stuff. you know it ain't so...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:08 AM

i can only think of one person who would really be enjoying this thread.....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:28 AM

”all of us in the Judean people's front, people's front of judea and all other previously stomped out mini-groups of splitters need to get a grip and to try to forge some solidarity to fight the dangers we face.”

Isn’t that what I’ve been saying all along, and getting my balls kicked for saying it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:56 AM

The Labour Paaary was undergoing a well-needed (in my opinion) change under Corbyn - basically, a return to core values - and it was working

You consider losing a general election by the biggest margin in decades working? As countless people have pointed out, to enable the changes that Corbyn was proposing the Labour party needs to be in power. It isn't. As much as I like the guy, what he stood for and what he proposed I have to admit that the Corbyn experiment has failed. Get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:01 AM

" i don't think you are listening jim."
Listening to what exactly
Are you saying Starmer was justified in sacking his minister or are you one of those who refuses to answer ?
You may ignore me, but the facts will remain - answered or unanswered
Labour has floundered and blundered through Parliamentary Politics for as long as I have been interested
Harold Wilson was the first leader I experienced - he was bad enough but he was a revolutionary compared to what was to follow
Left politics hasn't been a part of Labour thinking since the post-war Government when it rebuilt Britain
Abandoning principles has proved an utter disaster - they became as untrustworthy as the Tories
How is Starmer any different ?
He may be of a different character than Johnson, butt the end result will be the same - a growing disollusionment with party politics
There - another question which will not be answered - more to come

By the way
Livingstone quite - he wasn't expelled
CHIIS WILLIAMSON
Clive Lewis Pulled out of the leadership race
None of these were expelled by a leader of the party as Starmer has done
I think it's somebody else who isn't listening
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:09 AM

dave ,back wood raggy
you know that a major part of th reason for the conservatives victory was a pact they had with brexiteers.
I am sure that if starmer had been in charge he would not have won either.
i think the best that can be hoped for is a labour lib coalition because Starmer does not appeal to working class bluecollar voters and left wingers may vote for the green party

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:09 AM

That should have read "sacked from office" of course - nobody has been exxpelled yet, but if Starmer gate his way, we will witness all those who joined the Party when Corbyn became leader being accused of "infiltration" as has happened under previous Labour leaderships when Socialism was mentioned too loudly
INTERESTING ARTICAL HERE
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:44 AM

I think not, Dick. It was not UKIP voters that swung to Tory that won it but the loss of the heartland Labour vote. Even if the 'pact with Brexiteers' was a major factor, any politician worth his salt could have capitalised on the disarray caused by Brexit. Corbyn didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:56 AM

COINCIDENCE MAYBE NIGEL
China's civil rights have been an issue since at least Tienanmen Square
A Britain who can send a prime minister to the Arab states while a jornalist is being administered 1000 lashes for speaking his mind doesn't give a toss for civil rights if it gets in the way of its trade and commercial interests
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:58 AM

i have already said i thought it was wrong to sack (or whatever) rebecca long-bailey. for what it's worth i thought it was wrong to expel alistair campbell for voting in greeen in the euro elections. many people voted (inc. me) voted green but no-one else was expelled from the party - so just a gesture, really to sexpel AC.

i've always been on the left of the party (during the times when i havn't yet stomped off in a huff (3 times at last count)) and have happily supported green policies, anti-nuclear (a big deal in cumbria) and scottish independence - while criticising the scottish labour party. no-one has ever given me a hard time about my beliefs.

the current state of the government is what keeps me active in the labour party - it is still the only hope for the decent people in england

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 11:24 AM

”The current state of the government is what keeps me active in the labour party - it is still the only hope for the decent people in england“

Precisely what I’ve been saying and getting my balls kicked for, Pete. We need a Labour government, and Labour members, supporters, and voters should be getting behind the party and its democratically-elected Leader, and pulling together to bring it about.

And what anyone who doesn’t even live in the U.K. thinks about it is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 11:35 AM

"i have already said i thought it was wrong to sack (or whatever) rebecca long-bailey. "
If you are supporting the man who sacked her your opposing her sacking is little more than lip-service
The implications of her being sacked for sayiny what she said reach far beyond the individuals concerned - it is a classic example of someone being disciplined "as a warning to others" and it an action to appease the extreme right within the party
In doing this Starmer has gone with the flow and said that criticising Israel is "antisemitic", whic is, by definition, and antisemitic suggestion
Labour is now part of that
Can I make my own position clear - I am philosophically of the left - Scocailism is a dream for the future and it's certainly not going to happen in my lifetime
I believe in following the path that Labour was first set up for - to better the general lot of working people in Britain - is achievable in the short term
I was a trades unionist and fould for better conditions at work - sometimes we won
I went on Peace marches, anti-Aparhied and anti racist demonstrations, I supported the Miners... none of this was calling for revolution - it was all to do with what was happening at the rime
That was all short term and essential stuff, I believed
Nothing has changed in that except there are more nearer to home things to fight for
None of this has anything to do with the long-term hopes that right-wingers like PFR pour such contempt on - they are bread and butter issues
THis pandemic is having an odd effect on society - a few months ago the killing of a black man took on world-wide proportions and escalated into demands that our nations face up to their histories - slavery, racism, the exploitation of weaker peoples
That spirit of rebellion is set fair to accelerate as the situation created by Covid begins to bite
Ordinary people are going to be asked to bear the brunt of this mess and that is going to come from Westminster - if you believe Starmer is going to offer any opposition to it you are biger dreamers than you accuse me of being
Anybody who compromises with a State as extreme as Israal (as Starmer has) is going to have no trouble with compromising with the Tories
Watch this space
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 11:40 AM

"And what anyone who doesn’t even live in the U.K. thinks about it is irrelevant."
Oh dear - now thae was a nesty bout of deja-vous
I really did think we'd seen the back of that lever of snide
Must go and find my birth certificate in case someone asks me to produce it
Down, down, down we go.....
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 11:42 AM

Right wingers like PFR? I'm sure he will be thrilled to be called this by a right whinger like you, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 11:56 AM

You can shove your birth certificate where the sun don’t shine Jim - you have no vote in this country. Therefore your opinions are irrelevant, they carry no weight whatsoever, no matter how often and how hard you try to ram them down other people’s throats.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 01:05 PM

" you have no vote in this country."
Rule Britannia eh ?
Musyt be careful none of us criticise Trump or Assad then

Go look what he said about Socialism Dave - I don't exopect that contempt from left wingers I'm afraid
It seems you have finally resiorted to childish name-valling - a lot of slipping masks
Jay-sus !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:04 PM

No Jim, people who have good intentions and a deep longing to see the back of this dreadful Tory government are getting sick and tired of you dominating every thread you enter with your ranting, your high-handed pontificating, your talking down to them, your ripping into them because they see the world through different eyes to yours, accusing them of saying things they haven’t said, twisting the things they have said, demanding they answer any and every question you choose to fire off at them, and lots more.

For fuck’s sake, give your daft head a wobble and take a bloody good look at your appalling behaviour. You’re a bloody embarrassment.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:25 PM

i joined the labour party when Corbyn became prime minster.I have since left, i know of friends of mine who have also left they intend to vote green.
it is pure speculation as to whether Starmer will win an election , my guess[ and this too is speculation] is that the best that will be achieved is lab lib coalition, that there will be not one party that has an overall majority, and then the deal will be proprtional representation for the liberals.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:30 PM

You appointed yourels a spoleseman for all as well as demanding a passport on entry now ?
You have personally abused and isulted since I first challenged you - I have not
That you are uncomfortable at being put on the spot seems to go with the territory
The solution is simple - destroy my arguments with your erudition and superiority - they are simple enough
Why should we trust a Labour leader who has sold his party out to supporters of an extremist foreign power ?
I won't ask you too prove your accusations with any sort of examples - I've long ceased to expect that sort of thing from some people
NICE BIT OF SUMMING UP HERE
The author of the article is a long term Labour Pary memmber who has recently resigned in disgust at the appeasement to 'The Friends of Israel'
As somebody has already saidm "he won't be the last"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:44 PM

Jim - you have worked yourself up again into a state of blustering mania..

You are wasting all our time...


"long-term hopes that right-wingers like PFR pour such contempt on"

You can shove that nonsense up where it will bring you most discomfort.. Comrade Jimski...

If you eventually come back down to earth
from this mega tantrum,
hopefully you might realise how much you have pissed off your mudcat mates
with such rampant silliness...

For the moment, at least try to stop spamming this thread
with your distracting ridiculous repeated misunderstandings and condemnations...

We have far more important concerns to contend with,
which require intelligent mature debate..

You are invited to join in when you calm back down...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:55 PM

No he hasn't. My time isn't wasted. Who invites WHO back?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 03:03 PM

Donny - is America so fed up with you, they sent you over here
to act like an irritating pillock...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 03:31 PM

Donny - I personally invite Jim to continue in this thread
out of friendliness, [which he is straining] when he's come to his senses..
I believe other British mudcatters feel similarly, and would do likewise..

I'm also fairly certain most of us do not welcome your gratuitous shit stirring interfering intrusions;
and I'm sure some would not be as polite in asking you to keep out of our British thread...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 03:35 PM

Jim's analysis of politics in this country is thorough and pretty sound. I can find very little to disagree with. I don't go along with his approach to the rest of you and it would be good if he took a small step back.

However, you are now rounding on him like a pack of bullies, in a way you don't round on me when I make exactly the same points about Starmer that he does, and, because you know how he'll respond and are getting precisely what you expect, you are making the situation a damn sight worse. I'm amazed at your capacity for brutal insult, John, even though I know how to rile you about those noisy and useless shitting machines known as "dogs." You have no right to tell him that his opinion about this country's politics don't count just because he doesn't live here any more. We live in a big global village these days and what we do here impacts people all over the world. I've expressed opinions here about Dubya, Xi, Netanyahu, Trump, various popes and many another, I've been vehemently disagreed with, insulted and even threatened with banishment but I've never been told that I'm disqualified from commenting because "I don't live there." That's a resort way too far. If Jim needs to take a small step back, some of us need to take a bloody big step back. You didn't even treat Iains, a far-right plant, as badly as this. Nothing like. Jim is on our side, the main difference being that he isn't up for compromise, and he puts up a valiant argument as to why we shouldn't, most of the time. He's setting his principle against your expediency, you don't like it, but that's how he is. And there is validity in that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 03:49 PM

Steve - Jim is preaching to the converted about starmer...

But he's vainly banging on as if he is the only lefty amongst us with that level of enlightenment..

Then he insults us by saying we are starmer fanboys and efffin right wingers..

I occasionally tell Jim how much I admire his analysis, historical recall and perspective....
How I consider him something of an online mentor..

But he is not beyond a good telling off by his mudcat mates,
when he needs it...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 04:08 PM

”I'm amazed at your capacity for brutal insult, John,“

You should consider first the brutal abuse and provocation I’ve had to tolerate for no other reason than my moderate views on the current situation the Labour Party finds itself in.

I’m ‘amazed’ too. Amazed that you defend the indefensible. Not only that, you include an attempt to provoke me further as part of that defence. How low can you go?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:28 PM

...Jim - persist in stubbornly getting the wrong end of the stick
as much as you like..

All we can do as mudcat mates is try to persuade you to stop acting up so visibly,
before Mods notice and wade in to take it out of all our hands...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:31 PM

Stop the tongue-lashing, accusing, lecturing, pontificating, talking down to those who don’t see the world the way you do, twisting their words, claiming they’ve said things they haven’t, demanding they subject themselves to The Carrollish Inquisition then.

It’s in your own hands..

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 07:47 PM

Sorry, John, but you're the past master when it comes to the tongue-lashing and accusing. Just read your own posts over the last few days, why don't you. We've had your vile and intemperate language, personal sweary insults and slurs apropos of his domicile. It's in your gift, and pfr's, to step back, cut Jim some slack and even just have a smile at it all. If the mods wade in, shut stuff down and get all hoity-toity with us, it'll be down to you and pfr just as much as to Jim, if not more, if they happen to base their actions on the last few days' posts. Just drop it, all of ye. The kick-off point is that some here are happy with Starmer and think he's the only way forward for us to have any chance of a future victory and that others, me and Jim it seems, maybe even Dick, think that he's a born panderer who is ditching left-wing principles in an utterly doomed attempt to put Labour back on the map. Neither side knows the outcome of the next few years, but these are valid points for argument. Now bloody man up and drop the contumely, the lot of ye! Otherwise I'll set Barb'ry on to ye, and she has TEETH!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 08:51 PM

I had the right thread. It shows while the US did nearly everything wrong, the UK and NHS has done rather well afterall.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:14 PM

"The kick-off point is that some here are happy with Starmer and think he's the only way forward for us to have any chance of a future victory "

Who's that then...???
I don't recall anyone here saying they think much of Starmer's character,
or are impressed by Labour voting him as leader...

At best someone's only said he's a good performer at PM's question sessions..
That's as much as I remember anyone having anything positive to say about him...

Jim has just completely gone of on one,
based only on his own distorted misconstrued imaginings of what he thinks any of said..

Have you actually been properly reading this thread,
before you step in here
like a dozy chummy village bobby lecturing naughty lads on their wayward behaviour...

I've cut Jim more slack, out of respect,
than I ever would for anyone else..
But there is a limit to our patience with how he is currently behaving at us...

Are you really trying to help,
or throw petrol on the fire like donuel is...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:54 PM

I think there's a lot of hypocrisy going on when so many of you are defending your freedom of rant after having exiled Iaians when the main perceptible difference is what side of the aisle you are presenting.

I know he is somehow 'different' but in the postings in this thread all he did was irritate you the same way you were irritating him and each other.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:01 PM

Robo - so basically all Jim is achieving
is making a case for iains to be readmitted...

Steve'll love that twist...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 01:28 AM

Now this is more like it..

Sleazy tory MP sex scandal...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-53472289

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 01:51 AM

A major political event happened last night we need to be aware of: Parliament voted to have no power to review trade bills.

What that means is that if Liz Truss decides to agree a deal with the US that lowers food standards or gives the US the right to buy some NHS services, Parliament cannot intervene. They also voted down protections for the NHS, and against the UK being sued by multinational companies.

And because Parliament cannot intervene, neither can we. No mass campaigns, marches of millions, letters to MPs can have any effect, because the MPs have no power on the matter.

Our influence has just been voted away.

Personally, I find this more important than the last few days' discussion on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 02:41 AM

DMCG. spot on

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 02:49 AM

Of course Bills passed in parliament can be reversed but if the NHS has already been sued or if trade deals are already in place it becomes so much more difficult. We can but hope that El Presidento Johnson is ousted from within before he becomes impossible to remove.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 03:28 AM

I have PMd you Steve but I would like to address a point you make publicly. You have never made the same points that Jim has. At least not in the same way. You have never asked for answers that have already been given because you do read and understand what other people say. You keep your points succinct and make them just once. And, as far as I know, you have never made a thread about yourself. I don't wish to make you sound a paragon of virtue. None of us are. But look for the common factor in all the most vitriolic threads.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 03:30 AM

"I've cut Jim more slack, out of respect,"
I think I'll cut the bullies a bit of slack and leave you to it fo a while
This has become far too childishly bullying to bother with - I saw too much of that in the schoolyard

"Comrade Jimski..."
Good to see the right coming out of their closets though
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:29 AM

maybe even Dick, think that he's a born panderer who is ditching left-wing principles in an utterly doomed attempt to put Labour back on the map. Neither side knows the outcome of the next few years, but these are valid points for argument. quote steve shaw
yes that is approximately my thoughts.
starmer may win discussion points at pm question time,.
i am not convinced he is any more electable than Corbyn, i think he lacks appeal to blue collar workers, i think he might gain a few centre votes, but he will lose left votes, to the green party, and i am guessing that the most likely outcome is a lib lab coalition which might involve a deal on proportional representation.
I am convinced that if he [starmer] had been leader at the last election the result would still have been a conservative victory as a result of the electoral pact between the conservatives and brexit parties
how would starmer have won pro brexit labour votes that corbyn failed to win? , he is just as middle class and lacks any working class appeal he comes across as a typical barrister, whereas johnson and farage and trump have something that appeals to blue collar workers. I THINK THE LAST THREE ARE DESPICABLE. BUT I AM NOT A BLUE COLLAR PRO BREXIT LABOUR VOTER

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:38 AM

I think that Dick, Jim and I (hardly a triumvirate of boundless virtue) all see that Keir Starmer is simply not the man. That's a respectable view, and a handful of dissenters from the expedient on Mudcat are hardly going to doom the party. And I don't see how asking everyone to cool it and step back is pouring petrol on the flames. Let's see how we get on in the next few days. And let's not forget that we're all getting on a bit...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:44 AM

At least some information has come out of the latest discussion.
Steve Shaw appears to consider one of the moderators is his personal attack dog: Now bloody man up and drop the contumely, the lot of ye! Otherwise I'll set Barb'ry on to ye, and she has TEETH!

At least we'll know who's been 'running to teacher'.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:49 AM

For your info, Nigel, I haven't communicated with anyone wearing a mod hat for a long time. In fact, I don't even know whether Barb'ry is still around! So do try not to be silly...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:53 AM

While I may agree, Steve, it is blatantly obvious that Corbyn was not the man either. What we need is a left-ish Blair or, better still, a Becky L-B :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 04:59 AM

Just checked back... I had a bit of quiet banter with Maggie around 17 June, less of a one with her around 5 May and a brief and cheery exchange with Barb'ry in early April. That's it. In none of those cases did I try to hire them as my attack dog. Ask 'em! What is it with you at times, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 05:09 AM

The media and the pro-Israel advocates in this country and overseas made sure he wasn't the man, Dave, especially after he'd done surprisingly well in 2017. OK, he wasn't the man, but let's at least recognise why he wasn't. A massive factor is that he wasn't trusted as a remainer whereas Bozo couldn't have made HIS stance clearer. But give me an unspun man of principle over this bloody clown any day!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 05:38 AM

Jim - stop this petulant insulting nonsense accusing me of being right wing...

You are being far too petty, deliberately twisting any words I say,
to fit your silly notion you are a victim of bullying..

You know you are not, so drop the play acting..
Most of us regulars here will not fall for it..

We've seen this all too often before when you work yourself up into this self indulgent mood..

Steve - you are not helping by picking sides,
which you seem to be determining the members of..

Pro Starmer v Anti Starmer..

As far as I can see, we all feel let down Labour voted for him...!!!

..and if he's the best the party could come up with...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 05:54 AM

..and labour are unlikely to win any elections
unless they make a self disciplined show of party unity to the public,
and fight back just as dirty as the tories when the gloves are off...

Working class voters, tend to respect plain talking [even sweary] blokes and blokettes,
to smarmy sanctimonious puritans in suits..

The far right knows this, and that's why they are gaining so much support...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 20 - 06:06 AM

I am trying to help by trying to persuade you to take a chill pill! Who has what stance tends to get lost in these pointless battles...

Points made (as far as I can see it) so far, at least by me:

Starmer is a man in suit.

Starmer is a middle-of-the-raid vacillator, long-proven (e.g. by his brexit stance, or lack thereof).

Starmer sacked RLB which he shouldn't have done, thereby shedding his principles and pandering to the vicious forces of the liars who accuse Labour of antisemitism. A follower, not a leader. A poodle, not a lion among men (and women). Those liars will be forever on his tail now. A fatal blunder has been committed.

He lacks charisma, a fatal flaw unlikely to be fixed.

In the next election he will likely be up against Sunak, a young, dynamic-looking, cheery chap who has got charisma by the bucket load.

Therefore we are doomed, which would make it doubly stupid for us to ditch OUR principles in the deluded cause of electoral expediency. It won't and can't work. Sitting here for the next four years and letting this just wash over us won't do. The election knocked the stuffing out of us. There's a fight to be fought, and how we do that is what we should be squabbling about...